Sherri Papini in Person. Liar or Victim? Our Juicy Questions are Answered

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Sherri Papini in Person. Liar or Victim? Our Juicy Questions are Answered"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald
• Host: Heather McDonald & Studio71
• Description: A deep dive into the juiciest and most controversial pop culture topics, featuring candid conversations with celebrities, actors, comics, and reality stars.
• Episode: Sherri Papini in Person. Liar or Victim? Our Juicy Questions are Answered
• Release Date: June 24, 2025

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1. Introduction ([00:30] - [05:47])

Heather McDonald introduces the episode, expressing her enthusiasm for interviewing Sherri Papini—a subject she's covered for nearly a decade. She provides a brief overview of Sherri's disappearance on November 2, 2016, her 22-day ordeal, and subsequent revelation that the kidnapping story was fabricated. Heather highlights the various media portrayals, including documentaries and a Lifetime movie, setting the stage for an in-depth and honest conversation with Sherri.

Key Points:

• Sherri Papini was missing for 22 days and claimed she was kidnapped by two women.
• FBI later implicated James, Sherri's former boyfriend, revealing the story was a hoax.
• Sherri served 10 months in prison for lying to the government.
• Multiple media productions have covered her story, with the latest on Max titled "Sherri Papini: Getting Caught in a Lie."

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2. Sherri Papini's Background and Relationship History ([05:47] - [14:22])

Sherri discusses her relationship with James, whom she dated in her early twenties for a little over a year. She explains that her marriage to Keith Papini deteriorated over time, especially after she became a stay-at-home mom following a job loss. The shift from a balanced partnership to feeling like an "employee" in her marriage led her to seek emotional connection elsewhere, resulting in an emotional affair with James. Sherri emphasizes that the affair was innocent and not physically intimate, contrasting it with the controlling nature of her husband, Keith.

Notable Quotes:

• Sherri Papini ([11:09]): "We were never engaged."
• Sherri Papini ([12:28]): "I was incredibly terrified of Keith finding out that it was a male."

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3. Events Leading to Disappearance ([14:22] - [19:40])

Heather delves into the circumstances surrounding Sherri's disappearance. Sherri recounts the intense pressure from James, who became increasingly agitated, prompting her to seek her husband's help to defuse the situation. She describes the day she decided to end communication with James and the subsequent events during her morning run, which ultimately led to her abduction.

Key Points:

• Sherri attempted to end contact with James, who was pressuring her to meet.
• On the day of her disappearance, Sherri was planning to run and hoped to convince Keith to come home to mitigate James's aggression.
• Sherri texted James, indicating she was on a run and would respond post-run.

Notable Quotes:

• Sherri Papini ([15:31]): "It was almost like my feet couldn't make contact with the pavement."
• Sherri Papini ([21:56]): "No, I was terrified. I had no idea what was going on."

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4. Captivity Experience ([19:40] - [32:07])

Sherri provides a harrowing account of her time in captivity. She describes being forced into a car, sedated with unknown substances, and held in a dark room with boarded-up windows. James exhibited violent behavior, including branding her with a hockey stick, which Sherri disputes, clarifying that the branding was a result of his sadistic tendencies. She also touches upon the lack of proper records from law enforcement regarding the substances administered to her.

Key Points:

• Sherri was forcibly taken into a car, sedated, and held against her will.
• She recalls being branded on her nose with a hockey stick, a lie perpetuated by James.
• Sherri experienced various forms of abuse, including physical violence and deprivation of food.
• Attempts to obtain medical records revealing drug use were unsuccessful.

Notable Quotes:

• Sherri Papini ([21:30]): "I've never done drugs. I've never even been drunk before."
• Sherri Papini ([28:20]): "He smashed it into my face. His lie."

---

5. Release and Aftermath ([32:07] - [73:23])

Upon negotiating her release, Sherri was forcibly removed from captivity by James, who had orchestrated her return to her husband, Keith. The experience of returning home was traumatic, with Keith dismissing her ordeal and alleging infidelity. Sherri details her subsequent life, including imprisonment for lying to the FBI, her time at Victorville Federal Prison Camp, and the challenges she faced post-release, such as finding custody of her children and dealing with ongoing threats from Keith.

Key Points:

• Sherri was coerced into returning home, where Keith immediately distrusted her story.
• She served 10 months in Victorville Federal Prison Camp for lying to federal authorities.
• In prison, Sherri faced hard labor, poor living conditions, and limited access to meaningful therapy.
• Post-release, she struggled with custody battles, maintaining her children's well-being, and recovering from psychological trauma.
• Sherri emphasizes her focus on her children and striving to regain custody despite ongoing harassment from Keith.

Notable Quotes:

• Sherri Papini ([36:17]): "They touched in? No, it was."
• Sherri Papini ([54:48]): "And I loved homeschooling the kids."
• Sherri Papini ([57:05]): "I know he's gonna lose anything."

---

6. Media Portrayal and Personal Reflections ([73:23] - [97:53])

Sherri critiques the media's portrayal of her ordeal, particularly the Hulu documentary and the Lifetime movie. She expresses frustration over inaccuracies, exploitation, and the sensationalism surrounding her story. Sherri discusses the impact of these portrayals on her mental health and her efforts to reclaim her narrative through her own book, "Sherry Papini Doesn't Exist." She also shares insights into her therapy journey, highlighting the lack of adequate mental health support during and after her imprisonment.

Key Points:

• Sherri felt exploited by the Lifetime movie, forced to watch it from within prison.
• The Hulu documentary failed to capture the full extent of her experiences and perpetuated false narratives.
• Sherri emphasizes the importance of controlling her own story to dispel misconceptions and regain her truth.
• Her book aims to provide a comprehensive and accurate account of her life, trauma, and recovery.
• Sherri acknowledges the challenges in accessing therapy while under Keith's control and the state prison system's shortcomings in providing meaningful mental health support.

Notable Quotes:

• Sherri Papini ([76:53]): "Sherry Papini doesn't exist on Amazon as well."
• Sherri Papini ([84:09]): "I wish that I could apologize until the end of time."

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7. Current Life and Future Outlook ([97:53] - [113:34])

In the concluding segments, Sherri shares her current focus on her children, Tyler and Violet, and her continued efforts to secure custody. She reflects on the ongoing court battles, the emotional toll of public scrutiny, and her determination to rebuild her life. Sherri underscores the lasting impact of her experiences on her mental health and her unwavering commitment to her children's well-being. Additionally, Heather encourages listeners to support Sherri's book to gain a deeper understanding of her story.

Key Points:

• Sherri remains dedicated to regaining custody of her preteens, Tyler and Violet.
• She describes ongoing legal challenges and Keith's attempts to delay and disrupt the custody process.
• Sherri highlights the importance of therapy in her healing journey, despite previous setbacks.
• The podcast concludes with a call to action for listeners to purchase and support Sherri's book.

Notable Quotes:

• Sherri Papini ([110:55]): "It's case to case."
• Sherri Papini ([112:34]): "You never gonna give up."

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8. Conclusion and Call to Action ([113:34] - [114:46])

Heather wraps up the interview by encouraging listeners to purchase Sherri Papini's book, "Sherry Papini Doesn't Exist," available on her website and Amazon. She emphasizes the importance of hearing Sherri's firsthand account to understand the complexities and nuances of her story beyond media portrayals. The episode concludes with Heather expressing empathy and support for Sherri's ongoing journey.

Key Points:

• Promotion of Sherri's book for an authentic perspective.
• Emphasis on distinguishing Sherri's narrative from exploitative media accounts.
• Expression of hope and support for Sherri's future endeavors and custody outcomes.

Notable Quotes:

• Sherri Papini ([113:21]): "And the funds that are being made from the book are going to the government."
• Heather McDonald ([114:46]): "Book it. I'm going to read it."

---

Conclusion

This episode of Juicy Scoop offers a comprehensive and raw exploration of Sherri Papini's tumultuous journey from disappearance to imprisonment and her ongoing battle to reclaim her life and children. Through candid dialogue, Heather McDonald uncovers the layers of deception, manipulation, and resilience that define Sherri's story, providing listeners with an unfiltered perspective on a highly publicized and controversial case.

Listen to the full episode to gain deeper insights into Sherri Papini's experiences and her fight for justice and redemption.

Transcript

[Heather McDonald]

Heather McDonald has got the Juicy Scoop.

[Sherry Papini]

When you're on the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales For real life, Mr. Segment, serial data and cereal Sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast. Listen in, listen up. Woo woo. Hannah McDonald, juicy scoop.

[Heather McDonald]

Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Today's episode might be my favorite. It is the juiciest interview I've ever had the privilege to do because it's one story that I have covered for almost 10 years because November 2nd of 2016, Sherry Papini went missing while she was on a run in her neighborhood in Redding, California. To remind you guys, she was gone for 22 days when she was found on the side of the road where her captor had left her. She was very beaten up. She said two women had kidnapped her and kept her captive. And for six years that was the story the people at home believed. The FBI then brought her in one last time and said, we know it's this man named James who you had had a previous relationship with that you were with. And it went on from there that it came out it was a hoax. James said that she told him to get her and that she was a friend and that he agreed to physically abuse her and leave her marked to go with the story that she was kidnapped, she went to prison because she lied to the government. And there have been several shows that have been written about her, her husband, and she divorced Keith. And the latest one is on Max called that is Sherry Papini getting caught in a lie, which I've seen all of it. She is here. She answers every question that I asked. And I know there's been other interviews that you may have seen with her, but this is like no other. And I really get into the Juicy Scoop. So now with my interview with Sherri Papini. This episode of Juicy Scoop is brought to you by booking.com, booking. Yeah. Whether you're booking for yourself, your partner, your picky teens, or your sleep light mother in law, you can find exactly what you're booking for on booking.com what I really love about a vacation is at the end of it, you all had a great time because you chose the right place. So if my family can find the perfect stay on booking.com, anyone can find exactly what you're booking for. Booking.com booking. Yeah. Book today on the site or in the app. Summer is here. And you know what that means. It's time for Breezy dresses, bold colors and all the effortlessly cool looks you've been waiting to wear. Let's talk about what's underneath because the right shapewear can really make the difference. Honeylove's targeted compression smooths and shapes exactly where you want it and you get such great confidence. But the most important thing is that honeylove is comfortable. Honey Love has your back, your curves and your comfort covered all season long. I absolutely love Honey Love. It snatches my waist, gives me a booty and is comfortable under these cute little summer outfits I am wearing. Treat yourself to the most comfortable shapewear on earth and save 20% off site [e-mail] juicy use our exclusive link to get 20% off honeylove.com juicy after your purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them Juicy Scoop sent you. Experience the new standard in shapewear with honeylove. This episode of Juicy Scoop is brought to you by booking.com, booking. Yeah, listen, I hear you. You're trying to book a fun family vacation. Every need is different and I've been there for all of it. Whether you have toddlers, whether you have an elderly parent, that is where booking.com comes because they will find the most ideal summer vacation situation for you and your family at this time in life. If our family can find the Perfect stay on booking.com I know anyone can find exactly what you're booking for on booking.com booking. Yeah. Book today on the site or in the app. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I have been dreaming about this since a very long time. I have Sherry Papini here. As you guys know, I've covered her story for a long time and I gave an intro before you came. So people are up to date on where you are at with everything. You have a four part documentary out on Max, which I watched all of it. And also you have a book that is available right now for purchase. Sherry Papini doesn't exist. Where you really get into a lot that hasn't been covered though a lot has been covered between two different documentaries. I'm just gonna go through the doc. You've got Sherry Papini caught and lie. Welcome to Juicy Scoop. Say hello.

[Sherry Papini]

Thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

[Heather McDonald]

Thank you. And then also the Perfect Wife which was on Hulu and also the Lifetime movie with Jamie King who I know played you.

[Sherry Papini]

He's lovely. He's really lovely.

[Heather McDonald]

Which you played you in the Lifetime movie. And we'll get into all those things. But, you know, what made you decide after you did your time, you've been out for how long? Because I Knew you had 10 months in prison for lying about the. To the FBI, about who in fact kidnapped you when you were released. And you've been out for how long?

[Sherry Papini]

A year. Just a year? A little over a year. Yeah. I got out in October. Over past October.

[Heather McDonald]

December and then. So you've only been out for a year from doing your 10 months in the prison in Victorville. But. So where did it come about where you're like, my husband has done a documentary on Hulu. They did a scripted show on Lifetime. How did this other documentary come, the four part one on Max, and that you agreed to do it?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I had no idea HBO was gonna pick it up or Warner Brothers was gonna pick it up. So I was incredibly touched to be reached to. To be a subject in the documentary. And when the Hulu documentary began, I was in prison, so I didn't have the opportunity to have a voice then. And as you can see what we just saw, so many stories have ran about me, without me. So it's. There's their narrative, other narratives, so many other ways, twists and turns and spins and salaciousness and clickbait. And all of these stories have ran without me about me. And, you know, for a number of years, I had this purpose for purposeful silence where I was not coming out because I was just too afraid to say that I was having an emotional affair, particularly while I was still married to my ex husband. And I'm not afraid to say that anymore. So now it's like, I'm not married anymore. I'm free from everything. I'm free to have my voice. I'm. I'm free to. Free to tell my story. And now it's time, you know, it's time to be able to participate in where I've been exploited. You know, the industry has used my story for so long without me, and I think it's only reasonable for me to start getting involved with the narrative because I do have my side of the story that tracks very simply.

[Heather McDonald]

And I mean, so this is what's crazy. So I, you know, I followed it from hearing about an attractive young blonde mom went for her jog and is missing. So, you know, the first thoughts that people have is, it's the husband, he's lying that he came home and that you were missing. And then it was, could it be because she looks young that they thought you were a teenager? Which would be a higher commodity to steal and sex traffic. Then there were things in the Reddit worlds saying like there was maybe involved in some type of a drug dealing thing and their family's involved in drug dealing and therefore she's being kidnapped as like a ransom thing. And so then when we get to the place of you've been found the day before Thanksgiving and you, you know, she looks, you know, looks very different, your husband said, but we're so happy to have her back. And you know, we later see that you've been bruised and your, your nose is cut, your hair is cut and you've been branded and all these things. What's weird is what was always strange as someone that watched it was they weren't telling us anything. We did see that you said these two women, these two Latina looking women were the ones who kidnapped me, which right away did get people thinking, this is really strange, just because women in general are not known as kidnappers. And if they were kidnapping you to trafficked you, my first thought was, why would they hurt her looks? Why would they cut her blonde hair? Why, why, why would you do that? You wouldn't do that. So, but then it was like the FBI, whatever, the, the news was so quiet about it for so long because obviously they were trying to, you know, find out the act, the truth. And so my, like, my, my first question, so I have so many questions. So, like what, why didn't you say that it, you know, was a, did you say, did you decide not to just say it was a random guy? You were obviously you weren't going to say it was this guy that you had at one time. Were you engaged to James?

[Sherry Papini]

No.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, that you one time dated him.

[Sherry Papini]

That's funny, that's. Oh, that's a detail that's in there. But we were never engaged. James.

[Heather McDonald]

So you dated the guy James originally from what age?

[Sherry Papini]

It was early 2000s.

[Heather McDonald]

So you were how old? Just give me age.

[Sherry Papini]

20S. Oh, early 20s, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And you dated him for how long?

[Sherry Papini]

Not very long. For maybe a year, A little bit more than a year, something like that.

[Heather McDonald]

And so you say in the documentary, you know, Keith is, you know, though, you guys look perfect, you're very beautiful, he's very attractive. You know, you weren't having this perfect relationship and he was controlling and you connect with this old boyfriend because somebody in his family had passed. And so you start having an emotional affair, which people do. You know, our technology today makes that easy to do, to have a connection, whether you meet them back Facebook or whatever, or you guys got burner phones. When did you think I'm gonna say it's women? Because sexual stuff happened with him and you didn't want to even point towards a male. Like, why? I'm just thinking, why wouldn't you just say it was some random guy, right?

[Sherry Papini]

That was unacceptable to Keith Papini. So I was incredibly terrified of Keith finding out that it was a male. I mean, you see the evidence that says that I was hiding guys names under women's names, which demonstrates just the level of fear that I had with Keith. So I just couldn't. I couldn't say that it was a man. It was safer for me to have said women with what I was going to experience at home than it would have been with a man, because Keith was not interested in what happened to my body or what happened during captivity. It's this piece of the entire fabrication of our perfect marriage would fall apart if there was any cheating. Even the emotional affair that I had that was quite innocent. It wasn't like we were sexting each other or inappropriate text messages. But the second that it involved another male or there was even a hint of cheating, my entire home life would have fallen apart.

[Heather McDonald]

When did he first show you this, like, crazy jealous side of himself? Before you were married or after? Or did it have, like, did it come get worse with time or what was it?

[Sherry Papini]

It got worse and worse over time. You know when we experienced that love bombing phase and we experience the phase where you're getting to know each other and like, he had me on the hook right away. And then we had kids. And when life shifted, when I lost my job, they at&t had a merger, and then I was laid off from my job and. And I became a stay at home mom. I was really like an employee of his. Like, I went from having status and having shared responsibility into a relationship to really this like, underinflated role in our. In our home. And it really significantly shifted the dynamic and the energy and the roles. And that's when everything really started to go very, very wrong.

[Heather McDonald]

There's one part that I remember. After you were being questioned, you were home and you were going through the day of what happened. And you said, well, I called Keith to see if he would come home for lunch, meaning sex. Was that true? Were you still like trying to have sex with him and keep this relationship going? And like, I mean, that's pretty. To me, that would say, this marriage is pretty great. If you're like, hey, come on by for lunch, cutie. Like.

[Sherry Papini]

Not when it's more about servitude.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Sherry Papini]

So when it's a requirement for your husband, it's a completely different atmosphere there. So for me, James was really agitated on November 2nd in 2016. And so the dynamic of the communication was very different that day. He was really pushy. He was really agitated. He was really. He, like, it frightened me. So for me, if I could get Keith to come home, then I could text James and say, sorry, my husband's home. I can't meet up with you now. So I was trying to get that.

[Heather McDonald]

So that morning, James, in the documentary, you say, I had decided, like, I gotta stop this communication with James.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And why did you decide that? Did you. Did you think he was getting weird or what?

[Sherry Papini]

It was getting very serious. First of all, Keith caught me, and that's where the burner phones came into play. So Keith had caught me text messaging him, and I was trying to end.

[Heather McDonald]

How did he catch you?

[Sherry Papini]

He got a text message. Like, he caught a flash of a text message. And it was very clear that it was not a female that I was texting. And so I tried to end things with James, and James just didn't want that, which is why the burner funds had effect.

[Heather McDonald]

Would you and James only text or you talk on the phone too?

[Sherry Papini]

Occasionally we would talk, sure.

[Heather McDonald]

And what did he say when you're like, this has to end?

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, he didn't want that. It was all about like, well, let's find a way to keep talking. Let's find a way to keep engaging. And I guess that was the warning sign that I missed, unfortunately. But I was also so desperate for having a connection with someone at the time. And. And I really wasn't very well either. I didn't. I was always externally searching for validation and didn't really have the greater understanding to have internal validation like I do now. Um, but he really. He didn't want it to end. So it was the say, I'll send you a burner phone, which he did. And then keep it even more secret.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, so. So you said that morning you were gonna end. Like, how did. Walk me through the day. Okay, so Keith goes to work, kids are in their preschool. Then what happens?

[Sherry Papini]

Um, James is getting really agitated, and ordinarily he knew that I was concealing the phone from Keith. So time would go by, you know, I would have a while to respond and things like that. And he was just like, every couple of seconds, what are you doing? Where are you at? What are you doing? Cause he was already in town. And for me, it was like, this is too much and it's really intense.

[Heather McDonald]

When he said, I'm coming to town from Costa Mesa, had you said, okay, I'll meet you for lunch or anything?

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, that was the plan.

[Heather McDonald]

So you were going to meet him and have, like, lunch or something, or.

[Sherry Papini]

Get together in a public place with a friend. There. There was a whole plan because I.

[Heather McDonald]

Knew who is the friend. Could the friend, like, say that. That. That they knew about it?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, unfortunately, the way that I was going to set it up is we were going to. I wasn't, like, telling her I was gonna set it up so that James would come in and I'd be like, oh, look, there's my friend James over there. And kind of set it up. She wasn't. You know, I was trying to conceal all the details of that, but there was a whole plan. Like, it was supposed to be at Cattleman's on Hilltop Drive in Reading. Um, and I had a whole thing worked out with him because I knew that I was going to be breaking it off and saying goodbye and that it was going to be the end of everything. But it was going to be in a public place. It was not going to be private.

[Heather McDonald]

So that was gonna happen. So you asked Keith, do you wanna come home for lunch?

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, I was really. He was so aggressive in the way that he was texting. Yeah, James was super aggressive. So I just, you know, I had that feeling of, like, this is a bit much. And I was starting to feel really uneasy and really scared. And so I was trying to get Keith to come home because if he came home, then I could really simply text James, oh, you know, Keith is here, and maybe possibly get him to back down a little bit and then.

[Heather McDonald]

Hope that he just went home and then be done.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah. Okay, so either went home or delayed it or something.

[Heather McDonald]

But. Okay, so then you go for your run.

[Sherry Papini]

I'm texting him and saying, like, I just need a minute. I'm just gonna. I'll let you know when I'm back from my run, was what the text said.

[Heather McDonald]

And what time was the run?

[Sherry Papini]

Sometime in the morning. I don't. I can't recall the exact time, but it was after I dropped the kids off at daycare. So I presume it's sometime after 9, somewhere around there.

[Heather McDonald]

And so then we see in the dock that you get to the place where at this point you're, like, traumatized by how you got in the car. And so we don't. You don't really remember if you went in the car, you know, or if he grabbed you, or if you went willingly thinking you'll go get a coffee. I mean, for me as a viewer, as I watched it, this is what I thought happened. I think, I thought. I think she saw him. And again, in like, I'll let him down easy. I thought maybe you did get in the car willingly, whether you remember it or not, and then it was too late.

[Sherry Papini]

That's a possibility. So like I say in the documentary and in the book too, either way is reasonable.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

So if I could possibly remember, I would absolutely tell you. I wish I did remember. Is it. Can it be concluded that I got into the car? Sure. Can it be concluded that I didn't get in the car? Sure. Either one. I can tell you with certainty there was no plan to go to Southern California. I would have never left Redding, that I know for sure. So even if I volunteered to get in the car, or I told him I would get in the car, I would have never left town, ever. I mean, I knew he was there and I knew I was going to see him. So it's reasonable to say that, that I would willingly get in the car. Not leave, though. Never leave. Never leave Reading.

[Heather McDonald]

So now from where he is to Redding, that's like a nine hour drive or something. So you say that the next thing you remember is getting out of the car and he had to help you walk. And is that because you think maybe he gave you something or because, like, you were so crunched up in the car that your legs just had trouble walking?

[Sherry Papini]

No, I've never done drugs. I've never even been drunk before. So I was definitely under the influence of something. What it is, I have no idea. But it was almost like my feet couldn't make contact with the pavement. Like, I put a foot down and I wouldn't feel like I couldn't feel the pavement underneath me. And it was like my body was like misfiring. Like I just didn't have all of my faculties and it was. It was really fuzzy.

[Heather McDonald]

And then what's the next thing you remember? Waking up in this dark room or.

[Sherry Papini]

No. So he brought me in and he sat me on the couch and I was just kind of curled up into a ball on the couch. And then there was an exchange between he and I. And like, he wanted me to come over and kiss him. And I said no. And I was just really scared, totally.

[Heather McDonald]

Terrified, because now you must be thinking, holy fuck, I'm with this guy. There's no way I'm gonna be able to explain this to Keith. There's no. At this point, there's no way to explain why you're with your ex boyfriend who he. And when he saw the original text that he. Did he know it was James, this guy, or did he just think it was a random guy when he knew that you're texting a dude?

[Sherry Papini]

He knew.

[Heather McDonald]

He knew it was him.

[Sherry Papini]

He's known the entire time. I mean, he even told law enforcement in the very beginning about James and why law enforcement chose to go to Michigan instead of Southern California.

[Heather McDonald]

What would happen in Michigan?

[Sherry Papini]

It was another contact of mine. They went and investigated any. Any contact that they.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, somebody else that you'd kind of flirted with?

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, I wouldn't even say flirting. It was just somebody.

[Heather McDonald]

Was that the doctor or something? Is he a doctor?

[Sherry Papini]

I don't know.

[Heather McDonald]

There was some story that somebody, like, I read something like, oh, it was because this. She was, you know, again, talking to somebody and. And that, you know, didn't go anywhere.

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, my God, I was so miserable.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

It's so, you know, it's. And after everything had happened, after I was released from the hotel, did they look.

[Heather McDonald]

Wait, did they look at the Michigan doctor guy after you're released or while you were missing?

[Sherry Papini]

All I was missing.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, okay.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah. So they could have gone to. He was on the list. James was on his list of law enforcement's list of people to look into. They just didn't.

[Heather McDonald]

They didn't. Okay, so he wanted you to get romantic with him, and now you're like.

[Sherry Papini]

No, I was terrified.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

Like that was. I. I was planning on meeting with him, sure.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

But Southern California? No, I was. I was just really scared.

[Heather McDonald]

So then what happens?

[Sherry Papini]

So then I say no, and the next thing that I remember is waking up in the bedroom. No, not fully dressed.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay. And in that bedroom, had they already. Had he already put the. The wood or the boarding up of the windows?

[Sherry Papini]

I don't know if it was there prior to when I woke up because I. It's not like he gave me a tour of the house or anything. I don't really remember a whole lot.

[Heather McDonald]

When you woke up, it was there.

[Sherry Papini]

There was boards on the windows.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, so you don't know if he did it afterwards because he felt you had rejected him or if he had planned to kidnap you?

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Heather McDonald]

That's.

[Sherry Papini]

So Sam said he put the boards on the windows because I wanted it dark.

[Heather McDonald]

That is the part that I did not believe, because when I covered It. I was like, when we realize it's not these women, it's this guy that checks. She knows and heard all these things that he said. Oh, I was just being a friend, and she asked me to do all these things. I'm like, wait a minute. Okay. The only person that would maybe do this is somebody that I think would be deemed clinically, mentally, disably unintelligent, like the lowest IQ person that might be like, what? What do I do? And I was like, but wait, this.

[Sherry Papini]

Guy has a job or someone that suffers from sexual sadism, Right?

[Heather McDonald]

So, but I'm saying if we're to believe him, that a friend says, will you hit me and make me look kidnapped? And you're like, okay, I'll hit you. And now I'm gonna go off to work while you sit in this dark room. I was like, if he's capable of paying for an apartment house thing, whatever it was, and having a regular job, then he can't be at an IQ of 70. So that's where I was always like, this is so weird. And also, being that you are an attractive person and that you've always been stylish and do your hair and wear cute outfits and keep up. I just didn't believe that if you were faking your own thing that you would want to destroy your looks. As, like a typical vein. We have curling irons, both of us. You just wouldn't be. I would not be willing to do this. Just. And. And I always was like, why are people not seeing the female side of this? And then in watching the doc, I was like, oh, because the main detective, you know, is a guy.

[Sherry Papini]

He plays softball with my ex husband.

[Heather McDonald]

Prior to the missing and after.

[Sherry Papini]

We were friends.

[Heather McDonald]

The detective.

[Sherry Papini]

They all play at big league Dreams together.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, so let's go back. So I also didn't believe that either that someone that is active, like you, that would go running if you're planning on your own kidnapping, that you. Even if you're planning. You'd be like, okay, curtains, something you would want to have some fresh light in. I'm like, it doesn't make any sense that you would choose to. To go let me stay in this dark room by myself for eight hours. What was his job? Where was he going every day?

[Sherry Papini]

I have no idea. I think it had something to do with hockey.

[Heather McDonald]

Was he a hockey player? At one time.

[Sherry Papini]

So he played hockey, like, professional level? Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

So the mark on your nose that you have when you come home, which they featured in the COVID of the Lifetime movie With Jamie King. He said that you asked him to hurl a hockey puck in your face.

[Sherry Papini]

No. So he says that he held out the hockey stick and I ran into it. So imagine, if you will, if you don't mind, you're standing over there where those little mints are.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

And you're holding a hockey stick out. And I'm starting from maybe where your door is there. And I have to run. How many steps do you think I would get in?

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Sherry Papini]

Maybe two. And I would have to effectively hit myself. So I'd be ramming my face into something, hoping that it hits square on my nose.

[Heather McDonald]

How did you get that?

[Sherry Papini]

He smashed it into my face. His lie. That he held it up and I ran into it.

[Heather McDonald]

When did. How far into the 22 days did he do that?

[Sherry Papini]

Towards the end. So just to talk about the disorientation that I was under. So when we think about solitary confinement, they don't do that with prisoners, even in the same way that they used to. So imagine how many times you look at your watch during the day. So it's so disorienting. So it's difficult for me to conclude which day or where it was. I can say that it was towards the end of the 22 days of captivity, but which. Which day it was. It's. It's kind of hard to, like, I had trouble connecting with whether it was morning or night. Half of the.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. I can imagine. Yeah. So. So, like, tell. So I understand how, like, when I say, what day was it? I get that you can't really tell me that, but I'm kind of, like, in the scope of things.

[Sherry Papini]

So it wasn't in the very beginning that the injury to my nose wasn't in the very beginning.

[Heather McDonald]

It was towards the end because you were fighting or he was getting pissed at you or what was happening.

[Sherry Papini]

No, it was just there. James has a proclivity for violence and violent acts gets him off. So particular types of ways that he would harm me. I learned pretty quickly if he could harm me, if he harmed me in certain ways, he would get off, and that would keep him out of me so I wouldn't get pregnant.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Sherry Papini]

So there was this difficulty that I had.

[Heather McDonald]

So he's, like, jerking off on you.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay. All right. I didn't understand that from the doc. Now that's clearer. That makes more sense.

[Sherry Papini]

I mean, we have a responsibility in a documentary.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Now, also that you had, like, lost a lot of weight, and you are normally a very thin person. So what was the deal for the food. He wasn't feeding you or.

[Sherry Papini]

I had to earn it.

[Heather McDonald]

And how would you earn it? Through the sex stuff. And so some days you'd just be like, I don't want to eat that.

[Sherry Papini]

I mean, it's a difficult choice to choose between starvation and disturbing things. And also, that's where he was hiding the drugs most of the time. So it was like I had to make a choice.

[Heather McDonald]

Like. Like the drugs to put you out or. Oh, did you know what he was giving you then? Like a pill or. What was it?

[Sherry Papini]

I've tried to get my records from law enforcement and from the hospital. They won't give them to me. We've tried everything. We've tried to get them during the doc. We tried to get them personally. I've had lawyers try to get them. They won't give me my records. I can remember what they said when I was in the hospital after, like, they. They tried to take blood, but I was so dehydrated nothing came out. So I wasn't able to give them a blood sample. They had a urine sample and trace drugs were found in it. But they won't give me that report. I heard what they said, but if I. What I've learned in this entire experience is if I don't have backup, I can't say it. So I can tell you what they said, but they won't give me the report of the conclusion.

[Heather McDonald]

And so would they say just that, that you were so dehydrated or that.

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, no, there was drugs that were found in my system.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh.

[Sherry Papini]

But they won't give me the report.

[Heather McDonald]

I'll tell you what it was.

[Sherry Papini]

I. I heard what it was. They said it, but I don't have the proof. So if I tell you, are you even going to believe that?

[Heather McDonald]

Well, I am. Just tell me what it was.

[Sherry Papini]

It was a combination of morphine, diphenhydramine, prescription strength, codeine and something else that I can't remember. It's some kind of long date rape drug name that I can't remember.

[Heather McDonald]

The GHB thing or something like that.

[Sherry Papini]

It was a really long name. I can't remember.

[Heather McDonald]

But it's something to put you out.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah. Yeah. There was a whole bunch of a concoction and it wasn't the same high the entire time. It was different. I experienced different things. Now, whether that was part of starvation or stress or whatever, I don't know. But I know there was different forms of different things that he was giving me as well, liquid, sometimes things in the food.

[Heather McDonald]

And so when did you find out that the world was looking for you and how did you find out?

[Sherry Papini]

He joked about it casually. And then he said that his cousin that was watching me, that lived in the same cul de sac, nicknamed me America's most Wanted. So it was like a joke to them.

[Heather McDonald]

This cousin was a man or a woman?

[Sherry Papini]

A man.

[Heather McDonald]

And what do you mean? He'd go to work and they would. And the guy would just come in and make sure that you were still like, there?

[Sherry Papini]

No, there was a time where he did. But no, James was very clear that people were watching me. So I would presume that's part of the brainwashing tactic to let me know that someone was watching me when he was at work. So he would either leave me chained to the wall and make sure that he ensured that I knew that I was being watched as well.

[Heather McDonald]

So did you think he was gonna kill you?

[Sherry Papini]

Every second that I was able to open my eyes, I felt lucky. I mean, I felt like I was fighting just to stay alive every second of every moment.

[Heather McDonald]

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[Sherry Papini]

Well, I was negotiating every single day trying to find some way to get home. So it was easy for me to say, I'm not gonna rat you out. I won't say anything. Just let me go home. And for me it was, if you let me go, the media will stop because it's getting bigger and it's getting bigger and it's getting bigger. And he continued to say it was getting bigger. And he said that there was some kind of ransom something or other and his family had been discussing it. So I presume that there was a lot of pressure, not just from the media, but from his family as well. And anytime we did have any sort of communication, it was, my husband's never going to stop looking for me. He's never going to stop. They're getting close. So I got to use that in a way as a negotiation tactic. And I think it worked for sure.

[Heather McDonald]

And so do you remember the day that he's like, okay, get in the car or get, I'm gonna put you in the car.

[Sherry Papini]

That was such an odd day because there wasn't necessarily a plan. It was just me pleading and promising that I wasn't going to reveal his identity in order for me to get home. But there wasn't. Like, there's a chapter in my book where I discuss what that was like, the in depth conversation there and leading up to the understanding of like, I remember him rushing into the room and fastening like hose clamps to my body and going like, what do you mean, hose clamps? Oh, my God, you're so cute. So when you do plumbing, there's a metal clamp and then you tighten it with a screwdriver and it tightens a piece of sharp metal. You look like quite a construction worker. So I presume you know exactly what that is. But yeah. So for me, it was. He did that and then I'm like, what the hell? What the hell? And it was super confusing. It was very rushed. And even when he dropped me off, he didn't tell me where I was. He didn't tell me that there was a plan. It was just like, get out of the car. And then he drove off. And for me it was like, there's a. I didn't know what was coming for me. I didn't know whether I was going to survive. I didn't know if he was coming back. I didn't know what was going to happen at the drop off. And I write about that a lot in this chapter because what we don't talk about a whole lot is that day and how he got me into the car. He made me get into a bag and carried me out.

[Heather McDonald]

The day that you're coming home, the.

[Sherry Papini]

Day he released me, he put me inside of a bag and carried me out to the car.

[Heather McDonald]

What kind of a bag?

[Sherry Papini]

Like a hockey bag. Oh, it smelled foul. It was a hockey bag. So I was small enough to fit like a broken marionette in a bag that he put over his shoulder and carried me out to the car.

[Heather McDonald]

And then did you Just sit. Were you just sitting in the back seat the whole time?

[Sherry Papini]

I was terrified. I had no idea what was going on. So he put me in the trunk, shoved the bag forward, and then I just thought I was gonna stay in the bag, so I just stayed crumpled up in the bag.

[Heather McDonald]

In the trunk.

[Sherry Papini]

I don't know if it was in the trunk. I don't know. I was in a bag.

[Heather McDonald]

But I mean. But then did you eventually get to get out of the bag for the nine hours?

[Sherry Papini]

And then he readjusted me and put a pillowcase over my head, and then I was, like, fastened. So when I tried to move in the car, I was like, that hose clamp that I'm talking about, it was connected to something. And then he took my arm and zip tied it to the chain, so I was bound all over the place. So all I was doing was staying frozen and quiet in the backseat.

[Heather McDonald]

So you get. You wave someone down, right?

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, my God. I felt like I was on the side of the road for hours. Hours. And I. Even so when we have i5, right, we have two lanes, and then there's that middle lane there. I walked into the middle lane, and cars were, like, going around me. No one had stopped for. I mean, my hair was cut off. I looked like a homeless person. There's a chain hanging out of my waist. But no one stopped for a really long time.

[Heather McDonald]

And who did stop?

[Sherry Papini]

A truck driver.

[Heather McDonald]

And what did you say? Did you say, I'm Sherry Papini. Get me to the hospital? What's the first thing you say when you finally find another human?

[Sherry Papini]

I mean, he pulls over, and I'm like, come on. No. A truck driver? Really?

[Heather McDonald]

Like, you thought you were like, all this.

[Sherry Papini]

And this is how I die?

[Heather McDonald]

Come on. Like, another person could kill you.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, well, it was this big man, you know, it was this big, disheveled man that came out, and I was really scared, and I dropped down and really low and said, please don't hurt me. And he was so kind and was like, I'm not gonna hurt you. Here's the phone with the 911 dispatcher. And when he handed me the phone, he was like, are you all right? And I said, no, I've escaped. And then when he was on with the dispatcher, he said, she's escaped. Her boyfriend. And I'm like, oh, God, no, I didn't say that to him at all. But I was terr.

[Heather McDonald]

And you just assumed that. Yeah. You didn't know you were an actual.

[Sherry Papini]

Like, hear my voice in that Going, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I was terrified already.

[Heather McDonald]

And was that used against you?

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, of course it is. Of course it was. But I didn't say that to him. But you can hear how terrified I am that the truck driver even said that.

[Heather McDonald]

And so then when you get to the hospital and you see Keith, your husband, for the first time, what was it like? Because you didn't have a good marriage before. But I would think one of the things that I think is fascinating by the theory that you faked your own kidnapping. Couple things. One is like, one of the reasons I thought it was so fascinating. I'll just tell you. I was going to do it in the first part of the show, but let me show you. So many years ago, there was this Raiderette that went missing. Sadly, she was murdered. But every night this was like, there was a show called Hard Copy. It's like kind of like the 90s. So it was 1996. No, 1995 is when she went missing. And every night there was so much news because she was a pretty blonde girl and all her raider at friends and they were all models in la and it was in LA and they were always on. And I was at the time, like trying to make it as like an actress, comedian. And I was like. And I had this idea and I was like, God, what if someone ever faked their thing to just finally get their name out there? Because it was so hard back then to. You couldn't just go on TikTok and suddenly have people see you had to beg to get an agent. So I have a movie idea from 1996 that I came across that is about a dark comedy of a person like me who, you know, acts, pretends that she went missing just so that someone will find her headshot and her comedy act. And then the rest of the script, the little script that I wrote was then. Her friends, though, do so many, like, benefits and stuff. They end up getting the deals. And then she's like, how do I get out of this apartment? Like, now what do I do? Like, now I was going to hate me. You know, it's so weird that I thought of that in 1996 and then gone Girl was written. Then your situation happened. And I think there's something about a woman faking that for a number of reasons. One, the attention. Two, that, you know, that your husband that maybe wasn't nice to you, now he'll appreciate me. For the people that believe that it was a hoax, I think they thought a couple things. One, you're pretty. And you wanted the attention two that you. Because even it was diff. Because you came back looking so disheveled and hurt and everything. More than disheveled, obviously. I was like, it's not like the two of them had a little romance. And then she came back and was like, I was trapped in a room, whatever. That's why I believe you. And then also I was like, but if you were to believe the thing. There is something about when you're in a relationship with someone that you feel like, he doesn't care about me anymore. He doesn't love me. Well, now he'll love me and be appreciative at any moment. When you came back, were you like, maybe this will be. I'm gonna lie and say it's these women. Cause I'm scared of him, and I'm scared that Keith will get weird that I was with a man, but maybe he'll, like, be so great that we can be together for a lifetime. What was your thoughts about the relationship with Keith once you were released?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, let's go back to the very first moment that he saw me.

[Heather McDonald]

Keith.

[Sherry Papini]

Yes. So you've. I'm assume, presuming that you watched the Hulu documentary as well. Okay. So you've heard Keith's side of things. And you hear Keith saying, I didn't believe her right off the jump. Like, when he first saw me, he didn't believe me, and he thought that I was lying.

[Heather McDonald]

That's his statement, which I don't believe because I remember watching him, and he was like, we just need her privacy. She is very, you know, physically hurt. The police, everybody said that in the news that you were physically, extremely broken. Hurt. Like, physically hurt. And so when I saw the Hulu doc, I was like, well, whatever. That's not what you originally said.

[Sherry Papini]

Whatever benefits in him at the time, he'll use. So let's go back to that day, Right? So it's not like he was like this loving, gracious husband that was like, oh, my God, my wife is found. When I was on the side of the road, and I was finally able to convince law enforcement officers to allow me to call my husband. It wasn't like this, oh, my God. Honey, you hear me doing that? Babe, I'm alive. Oh, my God. I want to go home. I don't know where I am. You hear Keith go, where are you? What happened? Flat affect. No love, no nothing. And then when we get to the hospital, it's not like he was like, I need to see my wife. Get Me in there. He was. He became an informant, and they wired him to interrogate me. And he worked with law enforcement before he even came in to see me. Because you see in his documentary, it's. Law enforcement's continuing to say, bro, she might have been cheating on you. Because we have all of these. So he was building up all of this hatred for me and all of this, like, presumption that I was cheating on him so he can try and slip it in there, whoever he was. But it's unraveled pretty quickly if you just follow his narrative that constantly changes. Mine's never changed, other than the identity of my kidnapper. But when it comes to me, I've never changed. I've always said that I was held against my will, brutally tortured.

[Heather McDonald]

And you described the room exactly as it was.

[Sherry Papini]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

With the chain on, the weird different closet, the way it was placed in the closet, the coffee table, everything.

[Sherry Papini]

Yes. So his story shifts constantly, and it's still shifting constantly.

[Heather McDonald]

So do you believe. Because the thing is, if you believe the hoax. If you believe the hoax, it's so infuriating to any parent, especially a mom, that you would put people through thinking that. Or your kids. Someone having to maybe on day 20, say, actually, mommy's in the clouds. Like, did anybody. Did he. Do you believe or did he ever say, I thought you were dead? Did he ever tell the kids, I don't know, that Mom's coming home? What did they tell the kids?

[Sherry Papini]

I wasn't part of that discussion. But what I recall, what Keith did is he told Tyler because Violet was too young to even comprehend what was going on, is that Mommy went for a run and got lost.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Sherry Papini]

And then it wasn't until years and years later that there was more of a process with the kids. But what Keith initially told Tyler was that I went for a run and I was just lost, and that he was looking for me, which is an.

[Heather McDonald]

Appropriate thing to tell a child when the mom is missing. But do you think he went to bed at night thinking you were dead? Or do you always think he thought that something else was happening, that you were alive somewhere? Or do you think he did think you had been murdered? I mean, I would think someone's gone for 22 days. It's very rare that they come back alive. There's the young girl, the young Mormon girl that was kidnapped from her bed, that she's, like, the only one besides you that I've heard, you know, and there's a few. There's some with a. You know, there's some with these girls and they've then, you know, had their captors, children and stuff many years later. But there's very, very few stories that someone is held captive and truly like, living somewhere for a longer time. That's why they say if we don't find you in 48 hours or 72 hours, it's like the chances are so slim. What do you think he thought?

[Sherry Papini]

I think as soon as Keith started getting the indication that there was potential cheating, that he was wishing I was dead.

[Heather McDonald]

I always think that too, about. Yeah. Was he not that concerned if in fact you died? Like what? Like, you know, the Scott Peterson case. Scott Peterson, who. He's in prison for killing his pregnant wife. And I had said, if you believe he is innocent because he was a cheater, maybe when she went missing, he was a cheater, he didn't care for her. And maybe when she went missing, he wasn't overly concerned because he was kind of like really relieved. Like, do you think there was a. A kind of where he was like, if she's dead, I don't really care because I don't. I mean, do you think or do you think he was always like, I gotta find. I gotta find the love of my life?

[Sherry Papini]

I think two things can be true.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

I think Keith went through a lot during that time.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

You know, and I think that it for him, it probably changes pretty often.

[Heather McDonald]

And do you think he did now, in your documentary? There was a female FBI agent who said, we advised Keith from doing so many interviews, but he really wanted to. And I didn't know if it was because, I mean, we knew he'd been cleared, they cleared him. We knew he wasn't the murderer. So I was like, so then what is the point of doing all these? What do you think his point was?

[Sherry Papini]

I don't know. I can tell you. After he continued to be engaged in media, I remember afterwards I was begging him not to do 2020 because I was so broken and needing him and trying to recover. And that was the most important thing to him, was getting on camera.

[Heather McDonald]

So wait, what happened? So you came home and then how soon after he just did a 2020 without you? Right.

[Sherry Papini]

Like a few days, maybe a week, something like that. It really, it was really soon. Like I was still recovering, like health wise. I was still unable to even keep things down.

[Heather McDonald]

What did he down? I wish I would have found that and watched that. What did he say in that interview?

[Sherry Papini]

That my body was really broken and the whole narrative about it being females and he was just really talking about the gruesome injuries. Mostly I didn't. I can't remember it. It was so long ago, I think.

[Heather McDonald]

But that's what I remember too. But I still remember, like, there were so many unanswered questions that we never got, which, you know, and then even. And then the other part is if you were really looking for fame, like my made up story from the, you know, 30 years ago, I was like, why. Why don't we hear her doing things? Why isn't she starting a YouTube channel? Why isn't she, you know, and which again, you know, is why I believe you. Because I'm like, if you did this, why did you stay in your house and live such like a weird private life?

[Sherry Papini]

Six and a half years, I said nothing. Six and a half years.

[Heather McDonald]

And so you stayed married for six and a half years? And did you ever do another job working?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, in the middle of that, Covid happened.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, that's right.

[Sherry Papini]

So we. Yeah, yeah, we were all traumatized by that. But that means that I was homeschooling my children.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, okay.

[Sherry Papini]

And it was the best thing ever. Oh, my God. I loved it. I loved homeschooling the kids. I had this studio that I was using for sewing and painting, and it was like a little art studio. And I removed everything and made it into this full classroom. Like, you walk in and think that you were on a school campus with whiteboards and chalkboards and a library and desks and everything. It was legit.

[Heather McDonald]

So at that time, you were living. You liked that time in your life.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

What was your day to day with Keith during that time?

[Sherry Papini]

Horrible. He had started going back to work, but it was just like six long years of interrogation.

[Heather McDonald]

He would ask you about the kidnapping every day.

[Sherry Papini]

Every day.

[Heather McDonald]

And you would always say, it's those two women. Or did you ever. Or what. How would you get through an interrogation every day asking about this?

[Sherry Papini]

It was brutal. It was brutal. It was like he kept just trying to catch me every day.

[Heather McDonald]

And what would he say? Like, just give me an example of how it would be.

[Sherry Papini]

One of the things that he said to me was during. When James was there. So during the abduction of 2016, November 2, 2016, he said, well, you didn't scream, you didn't try to run, so why would I think that you were kidnapped? That was one of the questions he liked to say all the time.

[Heather McDonald]

And how would you respond?

[Sherry Papini]

Delicately as possible. It's like one of those, like someone saying that she's raped. And the people say what was she wearing? That's how it was with Keith. That's what it was like to be interrogated with him.

[Heather McDonald]

You just wanted to end the conversation as quickly as possible.

[Sherry Papini]

I would shut down most of the time. Everything I could do to avoid, I avoided.

[Heather McDonald]

And did you continue to have.

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, there was so many moments where I almost broke. So many moments. But for me, based on my personality as well, engaging with me, using fear as a tactic to break me. It doesn't work. It really doesn't. If he would have been kind or if he would have offered safety, or if, for example, his sister Suzanne, I was living with her and she's a therapist, and so she has. You were living with her?

[Heather McDonald]

But hold on. But that's after the six and a half years.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Suzanne was able to say, I don't care what your answer is. I'm offering you unconditional love. And no matter what your answer is, we'll work through it. I don't care if it's all made up. I don't care.

[Heather McDonald]

She took you in after the cops exposed.

[Sherry Papini]

After I was arrested, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

After it was exposed.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And that's his.

[Sherry Papini]

And that's not what Keith did. Yeah, that's what I'm getting to is he was never like, I'm so happy you're alive and I'm glad that you're home, and no matter what, we'll get through it. It was like, I know you're fucking lying. Oh, I'm sorry.

[Heather McDonald]

No, that's fine. You can say it.

[Sherry Papini]

Yes, I know you're lying. I know that there's something that doesn't fit here. And if I find out, I'm bringing the world down on your head. I'm taking your children. I'm taking everything you own, so don't let me find out. It wasn't ever like. Just tell me. It was like, threat, threat, threat, threat, threat, threat, threat. And that just made me double down more. It just made me clam up more.

[Heather McDonald]

That threat that you said, I'm taking your children. So we see that you. That he. After seeing that you had, you know, a texting, emotional affair with somebody. He has a post nup agreement saying if you're ever caught cheating, you will leave with not one dime and without your kids, which would never be held up because children are not possessions.

[Sherry Papini]

They are to Keith.

[Heather McDonald]

But was this document really made by an actual attorney or did he just type it up and you signed it like, let's not fight about the couch. We both want it. Let's sign it, whatever. Like, what was it?

[Sherry Papini]

It's both. So the thing with postnuptial agreements is generally when you have a prenup or a postnup, you have to have individual lawyers that oversee the document. You don't generally have the same lawyer because it's kind of a conflict of interest.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Sherry Papini]

I wasn't granted that opportunity. It was the same lawyer. So it was a post nuptial agreement that was made after he had caught me texting another guy, the one from Michigan. And he drew it up, he drafted it, he was in complete control over it. And then when we sat and had it reviewed by the attorney, he was sitting right next to me. So it's not like I'm.

[Heather McDonald]

And you're just like, fine.

[Sherry Papini]

I didn't have the opportunity to object.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Sherry Papini]

And if we would have had the time and the capacity to defend that more clearly in court, not when I was in prison. It probably would have gotten thrown out, but we didn't have that opportunity. He pushed for the trial as fast as possible. And so he won. He won. And it was taken into evidence. And there's so many problems with it, but we didn't have an opportunity to have an appropriate defense of it. And because I was in prison.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. So now were there times where during those six years that you were just like, I should say something because James is dangerous, and what if he does this to his next girlfriend?

[Sherry Papini]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Heather McDonald]

You thought of that?

[Sherry Papini]

I thought of that this entire time.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

But for me, you know, now I'm a lot stronger.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

But before, I was shell shocked and barely able to make eye contact with people, and I was just broken. But what mattered the most was my babies. I just wanted to be home. I wanted one more day with them. I wanted one more month with them. I just wanted to be home with the kids. And that was my primary focus. It's different now. And I've been through everything, and now I'm not with Keith. And I'm not afraid to say that I had an emotional affair. I'm not afraid.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, you have nothing to lose now. Oh, I'm at Rock Rock now. The other thing that is where I think people may not believe you is the Hobby Lobby branding tool that when the report came out, it almost was a little comical that it was bought at Hobby Lobby. Like, it was just weird when, you know, first when we heard. First when we believed that somebody took you and branded you. That was, you know, horrible and strange and weird, but it still then when it was, no, she Said, go to Hobby Lobby, get this branding thing and do it. Which they have the scene in the Lifetime movie, do it because I want it. It's. I mean.

[Sherry Papini]

I saw that in prison, by the way, when that came out.

[Heather McDonald]

Did you watch with other girls?

[Sherry Papini]

God bless Jamie King. She was so lovely. She put a thing out on her Instagram. She was so nice and said, obviously there's more to the story for this poor woman and let's get. Give her grace or whatever she said. It was so.

[Heather McDonald]

At the time or just reset.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah. When she was playing me in the movie, she was so gracious and awesome. But everybody watched it in prison. I mean, like, the chairs were lined up out into the hallway to watch it. And I was humiliated. It was absolutely awful. Because, as you know, it's a Lifetime movie, so it's built off of the headlines, and headlines are built to be salacious and for clickbait. And so it's like they were just grasping at everything that they could and it was horrifying. I mean, for goodness sakes, the opening scene is me being intimate with my ex husband and I had to watch that in prison while all the girls are going, woo. And oh, my God, it was horrible.

[Heather McDonald]

Where did you watch it? Were you in the front row or the. Or the back or.

[Sherry Papini]

No, actually, I didn't want to watch it, but I had a group of girls that were like, if you don't go, we're dragging you in there and strapping you to the chair. You're going.

[Heather McDonald]

They were being mean or they're being nice?

[Sherry Papini]

Both, Both. It did me no favors in prison, I can tell you that much. So. And prison definitely changed me a bit.

[Heather McDonald]

What's. How did it. Wait. Get back to the branding and then I want to talk about prison.

[Sherry Papini]

There's a lot. Sorry.

[Heather McDonald]

So when you. In the documentary go, I did these crafty things and I would buy. I had a branding thing from Hobby Lobby and we would talk about how I was making these little wood coasters with, like, initials in them or whatever. So did he. Did that give him the idea, like, ooh, I'm into S and M, I'm going to get this branding stuff for when we get together. Or did. Do you think he bought it midway through your time there? Like, where in the 22 days to your best ability, did he brand you with that Hobby Lobby brander?

[Sherry Papini]

I would say it was in the middle because my arm happened first. So James was. Is fascinated by the process of tattooing. So it was more about this process that he was Kind of obsessed with where skin would keloid and kind of look similar to a tattoo. So I would presume, since we'd been talking on the phone and I had talked about the woodcrafting that I had done, that he got the idea of it. And. And I'm a country girl, you know, we talked about things like that as well. Branding, and it's just a normal, everyday part of living when you live in the country and things like that, which is what I'm around. But I can recall very clearly we had conversations about a gift that I was making my husband at the time, and that there was letters associated with it and things like that. But to conclude that that's why it was there and why I wanted it, it's almost like saying somebody was murdered with a bat. So now we're going to go and arrest every baseball player. You know, I. I didn't ask to be branded, and I didn't ask for him to use the instrument from Hobby Lobby, but it is something that had came up in conversation before.

[Heather McDonald]

So then we get to the day of the viral video. They call you in again to the interrogation room with your husband. Oh, we just have a couple more questions going in that day. Were you scared at all? Did you sense that it was because you'd been. They'd been checking in with you over the years, asking other questions? Right. Or had a whole chunk of time gone where you haven't heard boo.

[Sherry Papini]

They touched in? No, it was. I mean, they were building their investigation for years.

[Heather McDonald]

And did you think they knew at that time, or were you just like, oh, they're just gonna ask me more questions?

[Sherry Papini]

I was totally blindsided.

[Heather McDonald]

You were blindsided?

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And what happened immediately after that? We see that Keith is like, I'm done. Or whatever gets up and. Or he leaves. And you're like, no, no, it's James. James. What? Like, what happened right after that?

[Sherry Papini]

I had to get in the car and go home with him, which was absolutely terrifying. And then he put my belongings in trash bags and camera that day.

[Heather McDonald]

And where did you go that night?

[Sherry Papini]

My parents came and picked me up and I went to.

[Heather McDonald]

And at that point, did. Did you have to break the news to your parents that this whole time it was James? And how did they.

[Sherry Papini]

No, I wasn't arrested yet. They just. So after interrogation.

[Heather McDonald]

But you didn't interrogate. But did you tell your parents, pick me up. I'm. Keith and I are done. But you didn't tell them why?

[Sherry Papini]

No. So after that last interrogation, nearly a year went by. Before I was arrested. So a lot more time had passed after that interrogation. It wasn't like I had that interrogation. And immediately after that I was arrested. Nearly a year had gone by. So when I called mom and dad, it was Keith and I had had a really big fight. My stuff's in trash bags and I need to get out of here. And then I went to his Aunt Pam's house until we could figure out what was happening and where we would go from there.

[Heather McDonald]

So we see in the documentary that the detective. We hear the audio from the detective going to the Costa Mesa house where you were there for 22 days and saying to James, we know, we know you guys were together. And I clearly thought the detective was letting him know. Just say what we want you to say. You can't be arrested for kidnapping if someone made you do it. And again, I'm like, what kind of person goes along with, hey, I hate my husband so much, can you pick me up and then beat the shit out of me? I don't want to, but I will. Like, that's why I was like, yes, I totally see why this is. And it's just strange that this guy that, you know, you said he kind of came from a troubled background with his parents in and out of prisoner drugs and stuff, why no one would, why they were so set to not believe you and immediately, like, it sounded like they kind of gave him this out. Just say that she asked you to pick you up. And he goes, she's a friend, just a friend. I'm just trying to help her out. And that's the part like, if, if you didn't come back, physically beat the fuck up, then it would be hard for as many people to believe your story. Now that's what I personally think as someone who's followed it in a viewer. That's why I do, you know, I'm like, who is this guy and what's he doing now? He lives in Phoenix, living off the 89 year old grandfather. I'm like, yeah, you're a loser. You're a weirdo. You're a loser or a weirdo.

[Sherry Papini]

And like, completely informal investigation on James. I mean, they'd already had years of building a case against me, but we also have to remember there was missteps by law enforcement. So by having me fall on my sword and taking all of the accountability, it releases the accountability of anyone else involved. So if they build a strong enough case against me and they manipulate the evidence enough that it builds a strong enough case against me and they Charge me for moral turpitude, meaning my testimony is no longer valid. Then it eliminates it coming back and biting them in the ass later. Because law enforcement knew that James existed and they knew that we were conversing in the very beginning. And that's a pretty big misstep on law enforcement's part. And then they have this informal investigation. They don't build an investigation on their lead suspect potentially and they close the case as fast as possible. That presumes some issues there also leading or coercing a compassion from the side.

[Heather McDonald]

And did they give him like a deal? Like say this and you're going to sign this thing. We'll never like just. Oh, just like when someone turns on a co. Conspiracy for a murder, say who hired you or whatever, say this and then we won't, we won't prosecute you too. Is that what they did that, did they give him something and say, say this confession and we'll never come after you again.

[Sherry Papini]

What's interesting about that is we have the interrogation tapes right. Where they interview James and a portion of it is cut out so it pauses and we see a length of time go by and then it continues. We'll never know what was said and we'll never know what was offered because it pauses. The length of time goes by. So I have no idea. What I do know is James's record is not the same. So the records that are out there are not the same. The same that they were.

[Heather McDonald]

You mean he had some run ins with the law that is now gone.

[Sherry Papini]

I've picked him up from jail when we were together and somehow he just has a clean record now. I really don't know the details of that. I don't know what's happened. But I do know that James has had trouble with law enforcement, been arrested or whatever. Yeah. And what his charges are and what happened, you know, in his life from when we broke up. It's kind of like someone started as an amateur and then they get to professional level. Whatever. Whatever happened in those years that he and I weren't talking, something happened to make him this sicker, darker individual. And whatever his record is or anything that happened in the meantime. I don't know. I don't know what they gave him. I just know based on the interrogation tapes, they gave him a way out and they gave him. They led him through it. That's definitely what it, it seems like.

[Heather McDonald]

So you talk to attorneys, you have attorneys. And how did you come to the conclusion that the best thing for you and your Family is to take the plea, which is 18 months, but you got out in 10, because there's no way out of this, because technically, you lied to the government. And even if they. So who. How did you realize that was your only choice?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, when I started talking to my defense attorney and we discussed what it would be like to go to a trial, first of all, I had no money, so it wasn't really an option for me. And it's the FBI. It's not like it was a trial. James Reyes versus Sherry Papini. It was Sherry Papini versus the United States federal government. And that means they have endless resources to draw out a trial and to drain me of my resources, to drain me of my most precious resource, which is time with my children. And it was going to be something that was going to go on and on and on and on, because what do they care? They don't care if a trial lasts forever. And at the end of that trial, however long that it would be, however expensive it would be, I still lied. So a sentence would be passed regardless. And I knew that it was wrong, and I wanted to demonstrate my remorse and my accountability. First and foremost. I knew that keeping James was a secret was wrong. And so that was the best way that I could demonstrate remorse, take my accountability, and deal with the situation at hand without going through a lengthy trial. Because it wouldn't be justice. It wouldn't be. James is going to go to jail at the end of it because he's found guilty. It's the United States federal government. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't stand. I didn't have a chance. Didn't have a shot.

[Heather McDonald]

And so you agree to do that? And what is prison? What is it like? Because I always. I'm, like, fascinated. Like, how when you're the pretty white girl who's also famous, how do you survive? Like, if I went in, I would just, like, start imitating the guards or something. Just try to, like, let them know I'm funny. Because clearly, like, it would be difficult. How did you make.

[Sherry Papini]

I think you do fine in prison. You would, like, run the entire prison by the time you got out there? I mean, like, honestly.

[Heather McDonald]

But no, I'm like, how, like, off the bat, were women, like, mean and scary? Or was it. Cause what kind of criminals were they just all. Everything? Or were you with murderers or were white collar? What was it?

[Sherry Papini]

It's kind of a melting pot. So there's a wide variety of different charges in there. And it's the level of security. Right so there's a couple of different ways to make up the population of Victorville Federal Prison camp. That's the lowest amount of security. So we have the prison camp, medium security, maximum security. And that is based on the level of your crime. Right.

[Heather McDonald]

So you were in the camp.

[Sherry Papini]

I was in the camp, which is the lowest level of security. So it's like fraud and lying to a federal officer. Or we have other inmates that have spent a really long time incarcerated and have spent enough time that they've gotten their points lower so they qualify for being at a camp. So there was people in there that were child molesters. There were people in there that aggravated assault and things like that. There was quite a few people, but they'd been incarcerated for 10, 20 years at that point, so they qualified for being in a camp. So it was a lot of different.

[Heather McDonald]

Were you in a cell with another person? Like, what was your sleeping situation?

[Sherry Papini]

It was kind of like the inside of a Costco. So it was very bare, open concept, open warehouse almost, with these cement barricades and two metal bunks. And so it was a very small cell without a door and very open concept. Like, when you're on the top bunk, the bed is a little bit higher than where the cement is, so everyone can see you as well as you can see everyone else. There was not a whole lot of privacy, and then it's kind of like open concept, locker room, bathroom style.

[Heather McDonald]

Getting back to, you know, obviously you regret saying it was two women, but I'm guessing your biggest regret is that you gave them an ethnicity that must have.

[Sherry Papini]

I'm sorry. Like, I. I'm so sorry. I wish that I could apologize until the end of time. So sorry. And I wish that, you know, it was something that I had more control over. Obviously, the race issue has been around for a long time, and it didn't help, and I'm so. I deeply regret that it was just to try and provide the littlest fragment of James's identity that I could. You know, it really had nothing to do about trying because you said you.

[Heather McDonald]

In just giving the sketch artist something, you focused on two women in his life. His mom. And, like, what. Who was the other girl? A cousin or something?

[Sherry Papini]

Cousin's wife.

[Heather McDonald]

And. But then why. But then why give them the mask? Why not give them a whole face?

[Sherry Papini]

I was too scared. I mean, I wanted to get them there, but I just. I froze by the time we got to that part in the sketch, which, by the way, I did not want to do.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Sherry Papini]

And they say that Like, I was enthusiastic to do the sketch. I didn't. And it took so long to do the sketch because I refused to participate in it for so long. Keith Papini wanted me to do the sketch. And he pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed. Like, you hear the officer say, he was very pushing. He just kept getting in the way. So he really tried to control the investigation from day one. But I didn't want to. I didn't want to do the sketch. I really didn't. So it was like, if I could cover here down, then I could at least satisfy that. Like, well, they didn't have everything. So even if he sees it clearly, James would see that I'm trying to sketch his mom, but it's not incredibly clear. It was just a really hard choice.

[Heather McDonald]

And then when he does the Hulu document, he goes this complete other route, saying basically that you were doing Munchausen's by proxy, that you were making your kids sick because he said you'd soak a thing of alcohol and, like, put that near their body. And I have to tell you, when I saw the Hulu doc, I was like, wow, this is weird. Like, oh, my God. Because I'm obsessed with, like, Munchausen's by proxy, too. But the way you explained it in your doc made a lot of sense because you have sensitive skin and have gotten rashes, and they had sensitive skin. So instead of doing a Vicks rub, you would do, like, a peppermint, like, essential oils or something, and put it on a cloth so that the breathing could be better. Why do you think he went from. Do you think he really. Do you think he knew that you were just doing an innocent essential oils thing? Or do you think he then was putting a story together for himself to be so cruel?

[Sherry Papini]

In my opinion, I think Keith Papini does not want anyone to know who he really is. And so the more attention you can get spent on villainizing me, the less you look at him. And he's very invested in his image. Unfortunately, in family law, what we see a lot is when you have a toxic ex. False allegation, claims are made. It's pretty common, which is horrifying, but it's pretty common. Unfortunately, this lie that he's concocted doesn't even make sense. You can't make somebody sick from inhaling rubbing alcohol. It's similar to, like, smelling salts, for example. So the lie that he concoct is it doesn't even hold up. It dissolves pretty quickly. I would never harm my children, ever. I Went to extreme lengths to do natural things with them. I've never tried to make them sick. There's no hospital visits or anything that demonstrates that I would ever harm my children. And as you see in the other documentary, it's concluded as unfounded. And the lengths that he went through to accuse my daughter is horrifying.

[Heather McDonald]

It's heartbreaking to have your daughter say it.

[Sherry Papini]

You mean to use her in the way that he has. And the dog never hurt my kids ever.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

I mean, it's the one weapon that he has and ruined everything. When that allegation came out, it was like they went through it, and then they're like, oh, well, we've lost it. She's hurt her kids. You know, he knew what it was going to do. He knew the ramifications of it. And what's most valuable and important to him, in my opinion, is making me look as bad as possible. So you stop looking at him, and he stops gaining any culpability in his behavior that he did. But that act in and of itself is pretty terrible. It's pretty terrible.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, that's why it's the. Like you said. No, no, I'm sorry.

[Sherry Papini]

The minute you talk about my kids, I fall apart.

[Heather McDonald]

But, I mean, you know, you're right. It's the ultimate thing that happens in toxic divorces. And, you know, there are women that say the ultimate lie and say that the father is sexually abusing the kids, and it's not true. And, you know, and you know, in cases. In those cases, I know friends that. I know one person that believes that, you know, thought there could be something, but if. But her attorney's like, if you say it and it's not true, then the courts are so mad at you for accusing of sexual abuse that then you will lose. You will lose. Which it's like, what are you supposed to do? But, you know. So he says this on the dock, which then adds to the narrative. Summer is here, and you know what that means. It's time for breezy dresses, bold colors, and all the effortlessly cool looks you've been waiting to wear. Let's talk about what's underneath, because the right shapewear can really make the difference. Honey Love's targeted compression smooths and shapes exactly where you want it, and you get such great confidence. But the most important thing is that Honey Love is of kind. Comfortable. Honey Love has your back, your curves, and your comfort covered all season long. I absolutely love Honey Love. It snatches my waist, gives me a booty and is comfortable under these cute little summer outfits I am wearing. Treat yourself to the most comfortable shapewear on earth and save 20% off site [e-mail] juicy use our exclusive link to get 20% off honeylove.com juicy after your purchase they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them Juicy Scoops sent you experience the new standard in shapewear with Honeylove. I'm sure you guys are creative and sometimes get these great ideas and you wonder, hey, you know, can AI build a website for me for this? Well, turns out it can. At Wix.com, you can answer a few questions and get a beautiful business ready site in minutes. And this is not just skim the surface type AI. This tech goes deep. All the way from generating unique visuals to an AI agent setting up a marketing campaign for you. WIX puts incredible website creation at your FingerTips with their AI site builder. You answer a few questions and get a personalized business ready site fast. WIX has been pioneering in website tech for almost 20 years. These guys seriously, seriously understand web design and what it takes to run your own business. Ready to create your own website? Go to wix.com that's wix.com to start building your website today. Thanks Wix for sponsoring Juicy Scoop. So you know, you touch a little bit on the fact that you were sexually molested as a child by a family person or someone within your family. And there were experts that spoke about that. And I know that is a result of a child being traumatized is, you know, doing what you did, disassociation, pleasing. But also there have been, you know, there is a pattern sometimes where children then do go on to lie, to not tell the truth. Do you cover that like in the book about how that has happened? Because were there other things, like were there other things that prior to this that people could say you've lied about, you got caught in a lie that might be a result of you living from this trauma?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I think that frankly there's theories out there. Sure. And there's a lot of people like we all live our lives. We have enemies. There are people I may not have been kind to back in the day. There are people that I had tumultuous relationships with. You have to have evidence though to back up what you're saying. So there is yet to be anything where someone has come out with something like that, where there's like a excessive amount of evidence to back up what they're saying. Unfortunately, because my words don't hold as much weight. It's even more difficult for me to back up anything that I say from here on out.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, it's also a pattern of. When you've been abused as a child, you often do unfortunately end up with abusive partners, which. That seems to be a pattern of yours. You know, I mean, you have a bad. You left. Yeah, you left like, you know, someone, you know, not physically, but not a great husband, and then went to the worst. And so like in doing your therapy and stuff, do you. So you get into that in the book. A little explaining and what you.

[Sherry Papini]

The entire book. What's really cool about the book is you watch this progression. Like I go into depth about the progression of early childhood up until now, the things that I've learned, the progress that I've made, the journey of self discovery where things have unfolded. And it's just steeped in this like mental health language in there. And it's been really exceptionally extraordinary to be able to understand myself and figure out where I came from and why I behave this way and what defense structures I have and what caused where I am and all. It's. It's all from start to finish.

[Heather McDonald]

Now can we talk about a little bit? So you get out of prison, you go. You have like a little halfway house situation. Was that. What was that like?

[Sherry Papini]

The halfway house was horrible. I would have rather spent my entire time incarceration in prison.

[Heather McDonald]

Really? Why?

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, my God. Well, the halfway house was in Oakland the day that I arrived. The following morning, it was surrounded by police officers because there was a dead body down the street in front of the halfway house. We weren't allowed to go outside anymore because someone had been stabbed in the front and shot in the back. So it wasn't in the best part of town, one would say. There wasn't really a whole lot of time that would go by without hearing sirens as well. And it was a mixture of men and women. So it was both men and women. There was 74 men and four women in the halfway house with doors that did not lock.

[Heather McDonald]

So it was like a dormitory then, not a house. Okay. I was imagining like a five bedroom house that they had converted to a facility.

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, it was like a compound. And it was disgusting. Disgusting. I mean, I was like trying to wash my clothes in a garbage can upstairs and fighting the cockroaches as well. And there was even a rat issue.

[Heather McDonald]

And why did you have to do that at all? Like, why? That was just part of the.

[Sherry Papini]

It's just part of the way that the Bureau of Prisons operate. And for me, I was so enthusiastic to get out of prison that I was like, yay, halfway house. And I had no idea what it was like. I wish that I could have gone back, but it was.

[Heather McDonald]

And how long did you have to be there?

[Sherry Papini]

Six weeks. About six weeks.

[Heather McDonald]

And then you leave there and then you go where? To your mom's.

[Sherry Papini]

To my mom and dad's.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay. And. And you're still close to your sister in law. And so then you. That. Is that when you start with the therapist that we see in Hulu. I mean, sorry, not Hulu. In the. In the. In your doc. The Max docs.

[Sherry Papini]

No, I'd actually started seeing him. So this is an interesting. I don't think I've ever talked about this part. This is an interesting part of the story. So. So I was seeing a previous therapist for a really long time. I got in a reasonable amount of emdr, which is fantastic. And that stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. So they utilize the left brain and the right brain by using like a wand or something like that to activate left brain and right brain to calm the sympathetic nervous system in relation to ptsd. It's a phenomenal treatment, and it helps so much. When it came to my treatment, the FBI was starting to build their case against me. So the funding for Witness something or other had gotten caught off. So I wasn't able to continue with that therapist because I couldn't pay her. Keith had complete control of the finances, and he wouldn't allow me to go to therapy anymore. And I had lost her. And I was just lost. Like, I was desperate and lost. And she was, like, the one place I could go where Keith wasn't tracking me or watching me or had this freedom. And I was starting to really break down. And Suzanne, his sister, said, I have this therapist. Why don't you meet him on Zoom and see what you think? He takes pro bono cases on occasion. And why don't we meet with him together? So we'll have a couple of Zoom sessions where you can meet Dr. Diggs and you can start therapy with him. I was still married to Keith at the time. It was prior to my arrest. And I had started seeing Dr. Diggs secretly because unless this therapist had been previously vetted by Keith, he wasn't allowed, and he hadn't. Keith doesn't particularly care for Suzanne. Um, his sister. Yes. Because she was someone that. Well, actually, I don't want to speak for why he likes her and why he Doesn't I just know? Suzanne was the one family member who, if Keith did something shitty to me or he was rude to me, she'd stick up for me, and she'd go, no, no, no, don't do that. That's why, like, if you were at.

[Heather McDonald]

An event or something or.

[Sherry Papini]

Mm. There was a long time ago, while we were married, Suzanne had sent Keith an email saying, I've picked up on some really bad behavior, and Sheri's told me about some things, and I think, like to talk about that because you're going down a really dangerous road, and I don't like what I see, but I love you, and I'm here for you. So can we talk about it?

[Heather McDonald]

What's their age difference?

[Sherry Papini]

A couple of years.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, close.

[Sherry Papini]

I think three years.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, that's close. Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

And he ghosted her and started cutting communication. And then suddenly I wasn't allowed to go spend the night at Suzanne's house anymore, and I wasn't allowed to see Suzanne, and there was this alienation that happened between her and I. And then I reached out to Suzanne because I hadn't seen my therapist in a while, and the. I really needed that. And so she connected me with Dr. Diggs. And in fact, there was a time, it was like, when maybe we had, like, a couple months of therapy sessions. So we'd met with each other maybe three or four times, and it was in the studio, so I would have these zoom sessions, right? And I closed the sliding glass door, and I locked it because we were about to start talking about some of the more sexual issues that I was suffering. And Keith tried the door, and it was locked. And so he's outside the door now, banging on the door, screaming at me through the door, not knowing that the laptop is open. And I have a doctor and his sister on the other end while he's banging down the door and screaming at me. Now, Dr. Diggs doesn't treat Keith, so he can't talk about it, but I had two witnesses of Keith banging down the door and screaming at me just because the door was locked, because I didn't want the kids to walk in on that conversation, right? And then he found out what I was doing and tried to shut it down immediately and said that, you know, this is my sister and this is Diggs, and I don't get to be present during the therapy session, so you absolutely cannot see him. So I had to secretly see Dr. Diggs as well.

[Heather McDonald]

And when you were in prison, was there any kind of therapy they offered you? There?

[Sherry Papini]

Not particularly. They're not. You know, you would think that they're trying to rehabilitate to try and lower the rate of recidivism. So reoffending. But no, not really. The therapy that I got was getting engaged with some very incredible women, sharing stories and having moments of deep vulnerability and really experiencing some deep relationships with some really incredible women in there.

[Heather McDonald]

You keep in touch with some of them.

[Sherry Papini]

Within the parameters of my current probation.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Sherry Papini]

Not really.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Well, that's good.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

What was the food like?

[Sherry Papini]

Oh my gosh. Disgusting. So I had a job. When you go to prison, you have to work. And when I say work, I mean it's hard labor and you get 12 cents an hour to do it and you're working 10, 8, 8, 10, 12 hour days in the heat in the desert of Victorville. And so I had this job for a short period of time at the food service warehouse. So on the compound we have maximum security prison. So murderers and rapists and child molesters. In the men's compound, we'd hear the rubber bullets flying and the.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, the vent was near you.

[Sherry Papini]

I could see it from the track. Yeah, you could see that. Oh, it was horrifying. And like I said, you can hear them from the compound. And then we had two medium security locations that were on the same compound as well. So the food service warehouse, the females took care of it. The prison camp, it's all run by inmates. There's no staff there. There's guards that do the count, but we run the entire facility. So we're at the food service warehouse, which means I'm handling the food and building the pellets. I'm lifting these huge 50 pound bags and trying to distribute it to all the men's facilities as well. And I notice on the food, it's like not just a couple weeks expired, it's like years expired. And then there's other boxes that say not for human consumption. So we're like eating the meat that would be made into like dog food or, you know, I watched these other women drive a forklift into a bag and all the frozen meat would come out and then they'd just stuff it back in and wrap it with tape or like there was a time where we get the shredded pork, right, and there was like a nipple, like a full cow or pig.

[Heather McDonald]

So would you just luckily, like your parents would just give you the money on the books and you'd just have ramen or what did you have? Like what could you get from the little concessions?

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, you Know, prison's expensive because if you don't have commissary, if you're just indigent, you have nothing.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Sherry Papini]

Because you have to buy shampoo and you have to buy toothpaste, and you have to buy a brush and all of these. Like, you have to buy shower shoes. They don't just give them to you.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

The Federal Bureau of Prisons is a business, and they make a lot of off of the inmates that are there. So it's like you'd get out and you'd go to a grocery store, and how much do you think you spend on toothpaste, for example.

[Heather McDonald]

For a big tube, I guess, whatever, 3.99.

[Sherry Papini]

Okay. It's probably about $12 in prison.

[Heather McDonald]

Wow.

[Sherry Papini]

And you're. You. You have no other options.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

You know, so, yeah, I had friends and family that were assisting, putting money on my commissary.

[Heather McDonald]

Did you have guys reaching out and wanting to be your boyfriend?

[Sherry Papini]

I got the weirdest mail. I have an entire box full of the weirdest mail that I got in prison. I also got a lot of support, too. There were a lot of people that were like, clearly, there's more to the story.

[Heather McDonald]

Because at this point, we hadn't ever heard you say, I'm not lying.

[Sherry Papini]

Right.

[Heather McDonald]

You went to prison, us thinking. Because we didn't really hear you go, no, I didn't want this. We never heard it until now. So then we hear the promotion for the Mac show, and it's like, oh, my God. Now she says, yes, it was him, but I didn't. But I was kidnapped by him, by James. And so when they reach out to you, you decide to do it, and are you pleased with the result? Like, when you watched it back, obviously you did a lot more footage that didn't make it. So are you happy with what the story, how they place the story, or do you wish they would have done it differently?

[Sherry Papini]

It was a complicated process. So in the documentary, you watch me go from, like. I mean, obviously you see that it's taken a year. You watch my hair grow out, and you watch my body change a little bit, because it took an entire year to film the documentary. And you kind of watch me go from being poised and demure and fairly quiet to, like, really. And so irritated and agitated and. Because, again, my director was lovely. She did an amazing job, and she was absolutely incredible, but we were not friends, you know, she. There was no comfort there. It was. We're pushing to see how honest she is. And they did. They pushed. It was grueling it was incredibly grueling, and. And I gave them full access to everything for just that point and gave them everything that I had in every capacity. But it. It really is. It's grueling to go through similar to this process, but interview after interview after interview after stunt after thing. I mean, it was incredibly cool.

[Heather McDonald]

And you did a lie detector test during that time?

[Sherry Papini]

I did.

[Heather McDonald]

I can't remember what was the results, that you passed it or what happened.

[Sherry Papini]

I. I think that the docu series demonstrates a really stark difference between what we hear from law enforcement, which is that James Reyes passed his polygraph and they say with flying colors, or he passed every question, for example. And what you see in my polygraph is that it shows that there's a result that was a little bit sticky. Right. Because I experience quite a lot of shame. What that shows is my body has a response to a lie, or not even necessarily a lie, but when you bring up a subject, my body is showing a response, which means. Which demonstrates I'm not a sociopath, and it demonstrates that there is still quite a lot of shame or remorse or something in there. To say that someone has passed their polygraph with flying colors, with absolutely no showing any lie or expression in any way, kind of leads one to believe that there's not something right up there, because taking a polygraph is exceptionally difficult. Yeah, it's a very process, which is.

[Heather McDonald]

Why it's done, used, you know.

[Sherry Papini]

Right.

[Heather McDonald]

So you get out. You get. You leave the halfway house. And I did see that you had a boyfriend. Daily Mail picked it up. But you're no longer with him, right?

[Sherry Papini]

No, no.

[Heather McDonald]

And what was. Can you speak on that? Like, how is. Did it end amicably or what's going on? Because I saw you were in court about something about the housing situation.

[Sherry Papini]

That is a whole sad situation that's going on. So, unfortunately, we did not work out for a number of reasons, and. And I haven't really spoken about that relationship much, but in my opinion, there's a lot that he needs to work on with himself. And the ending of our relationship was really unfortunate. Right now we're trying to come to some kind of a settlement and agreement for the location that I'm staying in, and it's wrapped up with a lot of immature behaviors and a lot of unfortunate circumstances surrounding it. And I really. I. I'm trying so hard to be as amicable as possible and as kind as possible. And it's really hard when you have someone who's trying to hurt you at every Turn and trying to harm you at every turn. And ended really badly. You know, it ended with a lot of harmful things. I mean, there was a lot of sneaky stalking behavior and a lot of control and a lot of things that I didn't expect. You know, I. I've been through quite a lot of abuse, but they're. They're. They come in so many different forms. And this passive aggressive, covert abuse. I really wasn't. I'm so used to the overt abuse, you know, I really didn't see it coming. And I'm. I'm trying the best that I can to get through this as quietly as possible, but it's just not happening anymore.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. And, you know. So are you dating anyone now?

[Sherry Papini]

Right now, my primary focus is Tyler and Violet.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

That's where my heart is right now. It's. It's difficult to really have any time for that because I. I kind of. I started getting engaged in. In dipping my toe in that. And it's clear that I really need to focus on Tie and Vi and on moving forward with my life.

[Heather McDonald]

And is Keith with anyone?

[Sherry Papini]

I have no idea. Oh, I have no idea.

[Heather McDonald]

And so, you know, we see in the documentary, we wish you the best with getting. Regaining, you know, 50. 50 custody.

[Sherry Papini]

I'm hopeful.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, that's what it should be. I mean, that's what it should be for everybody, unless you really are an abusive parent, you know, So I don't know why that's not happening for you, but I hope it works out.

[Sherry Papini]

It just takes time. Yeah, it just takes time. We have to have a trial to have the ruling, and we haven't had that yet. So it's just gone on and on and on and on. And he's delayed. He's really good at delaying in the court, and he's also really good at not following court orders.

[Heather McDonald]

And do you feel that the documentary, like, getting your story out, going and doing some press is. I would think it would help your case. Do you think it'll help? Well, you see, sharing your story, you.

[Sherry Papini]

See in the Hulu documentary, right, that my kids are completely exploited in the.

[Heather McDonald]

One that he did.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah. It's like, borderline, in my opinion. It's borderline child abuse. How much they were exploited. It's absurd how much they were in the documentary. And when I had gone to the director, when they were interested in my piece, I said, I absolutely will not participate in any way if you have my children in here, I do not want my children in here. So anything that you Have. Has to be blurred. They have to be muted. I do not want my children in here in any way. I want to protect them as much as possible because they just got horrendously exploited in the last documentary, and that was really valuable to me and really important.

[Heather McDonald]

When they came to you, the Max doc people, did they know what your story was? What your truth was that you. Because like I said, we just thought that you admitted to the lie. It didn't make a lot of sense, but we're like, whatever, obviously, she's crazy, and you know what I mean? So did they. Did they get word from anybody else? Like, you should do something on Sherry Papini because her story is crazy. Like, how did they know that there was so much more to this?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, the director has done quite a few interviews, and I love so much what she says. She says, I made the story that I found. And so when we began the documentary, it's not mine, it's theirs. I was just a subject. And so she pushed me, really. She was trying the whole time to catch me in a lie and to see what she could find. And she literally made the story that she found. You know, there's bits and pieces in it that are still messy, and there's.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, the only part that I thought. And I.

[Sherry Papini]

And she didn't know I thought it.

[Heather McDonald]

Was, like, not a big gotcha is when you said, I just tried to make those two women look like his mom and the cousin's wife, whatever. And she's like, well, do you know that the mom is not Mexican? She's English. And you're like, oh, she is. I thought that was pretty honest. Okay, I'm sorry. I was like, yeah, but I really feel like there was no other moment, really. I don't think there was, like. Like, I don't know, but I could see that's. But I. You know, that's what makes the. It compelling if it was too much, you know, because honestly, when it came out, I was like, oh, my gosh, this is. Kind of reminds me of Casey Anthony then coming out and telling her story, which was a whole nother story. Like, it was like. It was. Not only was it me, but it was this thing with my dad, and it was just very. It was like a whole nother story. And I was like, so is everybody just gonna have documentaries where it's like, a whole nother story, like, five years later? And so in watching yours, I didn't feel like it was that at all.

[Sherry Papini]

No.

[Heather McDonald]

And had you ever watched Gone Girl? Or read the book.

[Sherry Papini]

Mm. Mm. No, I have now.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, girl. So when they were saying it, you were like, what is this?

[Sherry Papini]

I watched it and was like, oh, my God, she killed somebody.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, like that's. She kills the guy in the.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, right, right. And the only person in this entire story that got hurt was me.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah. It's crazy to be compared to the gone girl story.

[Heather McDonald]

Right?

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah. That's. That's sad. That's really sad.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, now we have to cut this out. We have to cut it out. But were you compensated for the doc?

[Sherry Papini]

No. So subjects aren't paid.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh. You know, it's interesting that you say that, because I've been on docs, and I never asked to be paid because that's the way it is. If I did an ABC News Nightline thing as a commentator, I didn't get paid. But I do know for certain docs, people do get paid. Cause I've done, like, entertainment docs about things. And then someone will go, what did they pay you? And I'm like, I didn't ask. Well, and that's why I was wondering if you did.

[Sherry Papini]

They paid for my dinner.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Sherry Papini]

They'd pay for my food and my travel and stuff like that.

[Heather McDonald]

I'm glad that people know that. I'm almost.

[Sherry Papini]

And the director says that too, clearly.

[Heather McDonald]

Kind of asked that because I'm like, you should. That's why everyone needs to buy the book. Because you should make some money from this thing.

[Sherry Papini]

Thank you. And the funds that are being made from the book are going to the government. I owe $300,000 in restitution, and there's a contract with the government.

[Heather McDonald]

Wow.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah. So that's my hope. My hope is to pay my restitution. I'm enthusiastic about doing it as well.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, maybe there'll be another movie made then. You'll make your money and more.

[Sherry Papini]

The industry is put out there, millions of dollars.

[Heather McDonald]

It's time that we do yours. Act it out. They can do this scene. I'll play myself. You have a very colorful divorce attorney. Not your typical attorney types.

[Sherry Papini]

She's so fantastic.

[Heather McDonald]

The father, daughter, like, team. I was like, I mean, it really kind of made the doc pop. Because you're like, what? Like, I thought that. I mean, she seemed like a badass, but, you know, when you think of an attorney, you don't think of someone with, like, crazy blonde hair, tatted up arm. But she was great.

[Sherry Papini]

She's incredible. Chase has for sure been a driving force for me because when I start losing it and I start Just getting so hopeless. She reminds me that there's so many people that support me in my community, and there's so many people that sure are curious about it and have a lot of questions, but that are really supportive because she has such a vast connection to our community. You know, she's really up in the opinion of our community. And Chase has been exceptional at keeping me motivated and understanding because it's grueling going to court and doing this year after year and still being in supervised visitation and him still not answering the phone, even though there's court orders for them and him doing whatever he wants. Chase has really been very stoic in keeping me going and making sure that we keep the fight.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, I hope that you can regain 50% custody. I hope that you may.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I'm sure you'll hear about it.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, I hope that you, at some point, your kids have two healthy parents that maybe get other partners, that maybe if he got another partner, that that's lovely to you and lovely to your kids. Like, maybe there's a future of that in the process. It's an incredible story of what happened. Media fascination. Being the pretty blonde girl that went missing, where people say the pretty blondes get way more attention than women of color and children of color and all of that, and then the world turning, like, let's burn her to the stake kind of a situation. And then going through, like, six years of going of, like, laying in bed at night and being like, am I ever gonna. Like, I don't even know how. Like, the stress that you must have felt all those years knowing that you were keeping this lie. And. And did you ever fear that James would come and try to get you again or try to contact you again?

[Sherry Papini]

I still do. I still do. I mean, the day that the documentary came out was a really hard day. It's still hard. You know, it's like I've suffered from PTSD for so long, and it's like, all flooding back. My sleep has not been the same since the doc has come out, because now it's. Now it's all out. And it's not just James, it's Keith, too. And it's what's going to happen when I regain my kids and he starts to lose. Then it gets really dangerous.

[Heather McDonald]

How old are your children now?

[Sherry Papini]

Preteens.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, well, you know, once they're 13. Is it. Don't they have a real say?

[Sherry Papini]

It's case to case.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, well, I'm going to pray for you. I think you, you know, are a Very good mom. And I think kids need to be with both parents and need to know both parents. And I don't think he's going to benefit.

[Sherry Papini]

I just don't think he's thought of that. I don't think he's considered because he's tried so hard to just annihilate me. I don't think he thought about me not giving up. Yeah, I think he just thought that that Hulu doc was gonna make me run away and give up on the kids. And I don't think he, you know, he spent so many years trying to break me down and break me and make me feel like I was nothing without him. I don't think he counted on that I was stronger without him and that I can endure without him. And I think that he thought that I was just going to run for the hills and I'm not. My kids are far more important to me and I love them way more than I dislike him. And I don't think he's thought about what it's going to be like when I get them back and have to sit next to him at assemblies and basketball games because I'm.

[Heather McDonald]

You don't have to sit next to him.

[Sherry Papini]

I'm putting you on.

[Heather McDonald]

You can sit on the other side and, you know, you can sit three rows back.

[Sherry Papini]

Right. But we're gonna have to be parent. Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

You're gonna have to go home, you.

[Sherry Papini]

Know, and he's caused so much destruction, not just for me, but with the kids. And we have one parent that's trying and it's putting in all the work and doing all the right things for the kids. And you have another parent who just really isn't. So I don't think he's ever considered that he's gonna lose anything.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, you know, you never gonna give up.

[Sherry Papini]

Never.

[Heather McDonald]

And they're going to realize it hopefully while they're still young and you can parent them. But they will. They will. They always get it. They always get it.

[Sherry Papini]

And time with my kids, when they've reached mature adulthood is gonna be longer than the time that they're littles and they probably know far more then we understand.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, everybody. The book is Sherry Papini doesn't exist and buy it. I'm going to read it. I'm going to start reading it tonight. And where can they get it?

[Sherry Papini]

You can get [e-mail] or you can purchase it on Amazon. On Amazon there are a few books, exploitative pieces where people have written books about me. This is written by me.

[Heather McDonald]

So just make sure that you get that one and not one of the others or buy them all and then, I don't know, go deeper than I've gone.

[Sherry Papini]

Don't give them your money.

[Heather McDonald]

Don't give them your money.

[Sherry Papini]

They're exploiting me.

[Heather McDonald]

But get this one.

[Sherry Papini]

SherryPappiniBook.com are the most reliable links. Yes, but you can also find Sherry Papini doesn't exist on Amazon as well.

[Heather McDonald]

Awesome. Thank you so much for coming.

[Sherry Papini]

Thank you for having me.

[Heather McDonald]

You answered so many questions and I. I hope you enjoyed your time here.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Sorry to make you cry a few times. Thank you. This episode of Juicy Scoop is brought to you by booking.com booking. Yeah, listen, I hear you. You're trying to book a fun family vacation. Every need is different and I've been there for all of it. Whether you have toddlers, whether you have an elderly parent. Maybe you've got middle schoolers, maybe you've got a big extended family. Now you've got young adults that want to be able to go off on their own, get the best coffee or room service. That is where booking.com comes because they will find the most ideal summer vacation situation for you and your family at this time in life. So whether you're booking for yourself, your partner, your picky teens, or your sleep light rise early mom, you can find exactly what your booking for on booking.com if our family can find the perfect stay on booking.com I know anyone can find exactly what you're booking for on booking.com booking. Yeah. Book today on the site or in the app.

[Sherry Papini]

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