Sister Wives’ Janelle and Reality Reckoning RIP

Summary

Podcast Summary: Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

Episode Title: Sister Wives’ Janelle and Reality Reckoning RIP
Release Date: November 7, 2024
Host: Heather McDonald
Guest: Janelle Brown, Former Wife of Kody Brown from TLC's Sister Wives

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Introduction

In this episode of Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald, Heather engages in a heartfelt and revealing conversation with Janelle Brown, the second wife of Kody Brown from the popular reality TV show Sister Wives. The discussion delves into Janelle’s personal journey within a polygamous family, the dynamics of her relationship with Kody, and her experiences dealing with both the public eye and personal challenges.

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Background and Polygamous Lifestyle

Understanding Polygamy and Personal Beliefs

Janelle begins by sharing her upbringing in the mainstream LDS (Mormon) church, which officially renounced polygamy in the 1890s. Despite this, offshoot groups continued the practice, and Janelle became acquainted with Kody Brown through these connections.

Janelle Brown [28:10]: "So when I first met Cody and when I first met Mary and her family, they were kind of like my token polygamous friends. It was always this novelty thing to talk about."

She explains that her initial exposure to polygamy was minimal until she began exploring fundamentalist Mormon beliefs in her early twenties. Mary's mother played a significant role in guiding her through this exploration, ultimately leading Janelle to embrace the polygamous lifestyle.

Joining Kody Brown’s Family

Janelle recounts her brief marriage to Mary's brother before meeting Kody, which established her ties to the Brown family. Her mother later married Kody’s father, intertwining the families further.

Janelle Brown [31:22]: "So she came to save me from the polygamist lifestyle, but she ended up marrying Cody's dad."

Despite the complexities, Janelle found stability within the Brown family, viewing polygamy as a path to personal growth and spiritual fulfillment.

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Life on the Show and Family Dynamics

Filming and Maintaining Relationships

Janelle discusses the challenges and rewards of being part of a reality TV show that highlights their polygamous family life. She emphasizes the strong bond she developed with Christine, the third wife, and how their relationship evolved post-divorce.

Janelle Brown [63:36]: "Christine and I have fun with our kids. There's always something going on, and it's made for a very beautiful friendship."

The transition away from the traditional cul-de-sac living arrangements to Flagstaff brought additional freedoms, allowing Janelle to pursue new ventures and eventually leading to her departure from the polygamous lifestyle.

Raising Children and Personal Independence

Janelle highlights how the children have led relatively normal lives despite the unconventional family structure. They pursued education and careers, distancing themselves from the show’s portrayal of their family.

Janelle Brown [41:07]: "They have led really normal lives, and that's fascinating. They went to normal schools, and nobody said anything."

Her professional background includes working as an administrative assistant and completing an accounting degree, showcasing her commitment to personal development alongside her family responsibilities.

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Challenges and Controversies

Catfishing Incident

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the catfishing scandal involving Mary, where she was deceived online, leading to personal and familial turmoil. Janelle expresses her dismay at the manipulation and the emotional devastation it caused.

Janelle Brown [64:37]: "It's one of the most horrible things. What a horrible way to be this person who gets off on that. It just does so much devastation."

She discusses how such actions prey on vulnerable individuals, highlighting the psychological impact and the importance of emotional support within the family.

Legal and Social Implications

The episode touches on the legal battles and social stigma associated with polygamy, both during and after their time on the show. Janelle underscores the significance of authenticity and maintaining healthy relationships despite public scrutiny.

Janelle Brown [81:34]: "I think I am really grateful because we are no longer weird. We've allowed people to be a little bit more open because secrecy is where bad things happen."

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Personal Reflections and Future Plans

Emotional Growth and Moving Forward

Janelle reflects on her personal growth and the evolution of her relationships within the family. She acknowledges the complexities of leaving a polygamous relationship but emphasizes the importance of prioritizing her well-being and that of her children.

Janelle Brown [35:54]: "We do not regret anything that we have done. We don't regret our life at all because we have this amazing family."

Future Endeavors

Looking ahead, Janelle shares her plans to build a home in North Carolina and pursue flower farming alongside her daughter and her family. She expresses optimism about creating a fulfilling and authentic life outside the constraints of polygamy.

Janelle Brown [74:56]: "We're going to be flower farmers. We have a home, we have flowers. We're making this up as we go."

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Notable Quotes

• Janelle Brown [28:10]: "So when I first met Cody and when I first met Mary and her family, they were kind of like my token polygamous friends. It was always this novelty thing to talk about."

• Janelle Brown [41:07]: "They have led really normal lives, and that's fascinating. They went to normal schools, and nobody said anything."

• Janelle Brown [64:37]: "It's one of the most horrible things. What a horrible way to be this person who gets off on that. It just does so much devastation."

• Janelle Brown [35:54]: "We do not regret anything that we have done. We don't regret our life at all because we have this amazing family."

• Janelle Brown [74:56]: "We're going to be flower farmers. We have a home, we have flowers. We're making this up as we go."

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Conclusion

This episode provides an intimate look into Janelle Brown's life within and beyond the polygamous family depicted on Sister Wives. Heather McDonald's thoughtful questioning allows listeners to gain a deeper understanding of the personal struggles, growth, and resilience required to navigate such a complex family structure. Janelle's candid reflections offer valuable insights into the realities of polygamy, the impact of reality TV exposure, and the journey toward personal independence and fulfillment.

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Follow Janelle Brown:

• Instagram: Janelle Brown117

Tune In:

• Watch the Show: Sister Wives airs Sunday nights on TLC.

Upcoming Episodes:

Stay tuned for more insightful conversations and exclusive interviews on Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald.

Transcript

[Heather McDonald]

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[Angie Hicks]

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[Janelle Brown]

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[Angie Hicks]

I.com Heather McDonald has got the juices Scoop when you're on the road, when you're on the go.

[Heather McDonald]

Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales, her real life Mr.

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[Heather McDonald]

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[Angie Hicks]

Heather McDonald juicy scoop. Okay you guys, I wanna thank everybody with your cooperation. If you are part of the Apple subscription, that's where you get to listen to the show ad free and you get all the back episodes of all the shows on Tuesdays and Thursdays all the way back. I've been doing this for a very long time going on 10 years and then you also get the bonus episode on Friday. You will have received your money back but you do need to resubscribe now so that that can keep going for you. So you're ready to resubscribe the link is there. Resubscribe to my Apple subscription and that'll be all seamless for you. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, what an interesting time. But you know what time it is. It's time to bring the Juicy Scoopers back together at the Irvine Improv. You guys, it's time to laugh. I know I've talked a lot about it but I feel like with everything going on people were like, I can't even think about laughing. I'm too nervous. Well, now you can. This is gonna be a fun non political show to celebrate the fun that brings Juicy Scoopers together from all walks of life and sexuality and thoughts of opinions and everything that just makes us all come together and love me, Heather McDonald. Because this Friday I'm gonna be doing a live standup show with the hilarious Julie Goldman and that is at 7:30 at the Irvine Improv. Then I've got two shows for you to choose from on Saturday with Julie of us making you pee in your pants. Get yourself an ab workout. Bring anybody you want. You don't have to worry. No one's gonna be offended. They're just going to laugh. It is a little edgy. And that is at 7:30 and 9:30 this Saturday. And then Sunday is the live Juicy Scoop. That is where I have special guests. I've got Brandi and Julie. I've also got Kate Casey, you know her, our cute blonde from reality life with Kate Casey. She is going to be part of the show. There are going to be questions. It is going to be what? Nothing is off the table. You can ask me about anything that has happened on Juicy Scoop in the last 10 years or in my life, which is a long time. We are going to have special guests, surprise guests that you will die over. That is at 7pm on Sunday night. And like I said, this is not going to be recorded and put on a Patreon or anything like that. It's not going to be streamed. I know some of you mad about it. So if you are in the area. Also I just found out that the schools in Orange county are off on Monday, November 11th. Okay. That is Veterans Day and they have it free. So you guys, you can go with your girlies, have your fun, have some cocktails, get an Uber and or Lyft and, and you can sleep in. You don't have to be running around making. But it's also an earlier show. Also if you're part of the meet and greets, that is going to be before the show on Sunday and it will be after the show on Friday. And it will be before and after based on what show you go to for Saturday. But if you miss one, like, we're gonna work with you. If you have the meet and greets, you're gonna be able to meet me. Okay? So like if you miss the one for the first show, then you can come to the middle part in between the two shows. It'll all work out. Don't worry about it. Get those tickets. There are still tickets available. And show me the love of juicy scoop in this country. Okay, There we go. I know a lot of people have been like, Heather, you know, the thing that we really care most about is what is going on with Peanut the squirrel. And there has been more that has come out. It was unlikely that Peanut had rabies in the first place. I found out a little bit more. Okay, so first of all, Peanut, I found out more. Peanut was a bottle fed squirrel and then they put him out in the wild and he couldn't survive. And so then this couple got him, made him an inter, you know, an Instagram star. And also part of it was they had like other animal rescue things going on. And that's where I guess the raccoon was also part of their thing as a couple. They did some risque social media. I don't know if they were like an only fans, like sexy couple. They're attractive, I don't know. So they feel they were like targeted. And now people are saying, I don't even think he had rabies, which is why he was killed. And you know, my. Basically this was the story that came from a juicy scooper. Peanut and the raccoon were rescued and bottle fed. They had them for like seven years. With the money they earned from social media, they open to rescue. Basically some Karen complained and they came and raided their home and took them and euthanized both the squirrel and the raccoon. So thank you to that juicy scooper Michael that let me know that. But the, the official has said he's not going to bother the governor of New York with this. So there was talk that they were some smaller officials in New York were going to go fight the governor. Why did you let this happen? Now the latest thing is like, no, there's more important things to worry about. But the squirrel was a huge influencer and the couple that helped help the squirrel people really like them too. So there you go with a follow up on that. Also a follow up on two crazy squirrels. And that comes from the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City as You recall, Monica Casey was a troll that infiltrated the show. She was under the Instagram Reality Von Teese was her name. And she wrote me, she wrote several people. And really her whole account was exposing how awful Jen Shaw, who is now doing nine years. So I think she got a couple years cropped off for stealing from the elderly in scams. So her whole thing was that she was friends with her or worked for her and was exposing how awful she was. She had audio tapes that she played and everything. But the cast, she claims, also talked to her on this. But then she got on the show as Monica Casey, divorced, mother of four. And then of course, Hazard Gay had her Oscar Emmy winning moment where she's like, receipts, timelines, everything. And that was her moment where she realized that this girl, this troll, this mole, was actually a real housewife. And they felt that she had written bad things about all of them, so they wanted her out. So she got out. Now, meanwhile, she also realized at that time that one of her lawsuits that she had going was that Monica had gone to her Beauty Lab. This is Heather Gay's business. It does really well. And this is where you can get facials, but you can also get botox, lip injections, all that like medi spa kind of stuff done. And she went there and got her lips done and wrote to the person at the place, I love it. They look great. And then didn't pay. And then when they came after her, the reason they didn't know is like, she used another name. I'm just recalling this, you know. So anyway, there was a $2,000 that she owed Beauty Lab and she never paid it. And then she tried to say that she wasn't happy with her lips, even though they had a text of her saying to someone, I love the lips, love it. So Beauty Lab sued her and she tried to fight back. Beauty Lab won, and they won their $2,000. The interest of 18 months or whatever it was was like another 1900. But then 31,000 was for the legal fees that Beauty Lab and Heather Gay incurred by defending themselves and going after this money. So she now has a judgment, Monica Casey, to pay Beauty Lab, owned by Heather Gay of Real House of Salt Lake City, 35,000. So she is the voiceover of the show, the villain. I don't know how much they paid her for that, but there you go. And she made a comment being like, I can't believe this is even news when this is happening, because it came out yesterday on election day. But, you know, that's why it's news. Because if you're looking for any other news to talk about, like me, this was pretty juicy. And I say, good for Heather Gay. Pay your bills. That's the moral of the story before it goes to a legal thing. Because then you're going to get these. It's going to be 10 times more. Which it was. If she would have just paid the 2000 or if she would have just been like, okay, I'm going to give you $100 a month, whatever. All these people will work with you. It's when you just, like, refuse. And then. Very stupid of her also. Remember the Golden Bachelor? Oh, you're so special. Oh, you're so small. Anyway, he got. He picked his girl named Teresa, and she was real cute. Now they were both widows, and they both had children and grandchildren, and they got married on tv. And then they were. Got divorced within months. And it was all, oh, we couldn't figure out where to live. Well, she has now come forward and said there was a little more to it than that. One was she was still working. Remember, a lot of us were concerned that he kind of latched onto her because she was successful and still working. And she worked in like, she was like a stockbroker or something, but she was like, had money and she had this house in North Carolina, and she really thought that he would come and move there, but he lived in, like, Indiana or whatever. And so one day she was going to visit him, and she said there was this, like, this big, beautiful open land area on the way from the airport to his house. And she just said, oh, my gosh, this would be a beautiful place just to build, like, beautiful town homes or something. You know, it's just such a great view or whatever, she said. And he snapped at her and was like, farmland in the Midwest is protected. What do you just want? You want to take land for the farmers? And, you know, she was like, oh, okay. Like, she didn't realize she was making conversation, you know, and it was one of those things where she was like, I just don't think we could really get past that. Like, we just thought about life very differently. And then they just were like, so the moral of the story is you shouldn't marry somebody, whether you're 17 or 70, that you met on a TV show in which you only knew them for a matter of months before you tied the knot. Especially when it means live. You're this set in your ways, you've already been married to the love of your life prior who you lost. Like, it's just not going to work out. Also in other reality news. Well, this is coming from the Vanderpump Rules party. They cover all the Vanderpump stuff. This is their Instagram account and they said that all charges have been dropped and the case is dismissed for Jeremy Maddox. This is the brother of Ariana Maddox, who was arrested with his friend allegedly bringing, I don't know if it was alleged because the stuff was there, but they were had like 50 pounds in a suitcase going from Orlando to Germany of weed. And anyway, it's been dropped, so we don't really know the details of it. Some of the comments were he probably, you know, gave the names of the bigger person, obviously in a drug dealing situation of that magnitude. The feds or whoever want to know who's really running the operation, who's the top person. And if you're going to turn in your boss, then they'll be a little more lenient. So that's good. I know he's engaged. They're estranged. She was not there for the engagement party. She was not there for his birthday party that Sheena threw. But this is good for their family. She, meanwhile, is doing fabulous. She is going to be at the Macy's Date Parade. And still no word if Vanderpump Rules has a old cast, a new cast, a mixed cast or when they start filming again. So we'll, we'll see about that. Also, Tom Sandoval said that the famed lawyers behind the Reality Reckoning accused. He is accusing them, because they were his attorneys as well, of enticing him to point the finger at Bravo and NBC Universal. So to remind you guys, Bethany Frankel thought she was going to take down Bravo with this Reality Reckoning, but the people that she got to go after Bravo were not a sympathetic bunch. And again, I just don't think this had a movement. Like maybe you would sympathize with like, you know, a union type of people that are like working for hotels. And you're like, you're right, they don't have good, you know, let's get behind this union that's working for this hotel and make sure that they get their, like this was just kind of like it was undesirable people from the show that we didn't really care about. So I don't think people care that much about it, Raquel being one of them. Also, Leah McSweeney from Real Housewives of New York, she's saying that they were not good about her struggling sobriety. Ebony from New York, I Think had some might have been part of it. I don't know who actually filed a lawsuit. So Mark Garagos was part of it. And it was like, my God, this is gonna be this huge takedown. And meanwhile, Tom Sandoval was being sued by Raquel, Rachel, Raquel, for he. She said he, you know, filmed her without her consent during the scandal of when they FaceTimed and had sexy time together, in which Ariana saw it on his phone. So she's suing both of them for not. For him for not making her aware that he was filming her and for Ariana for sharing it. Though Ariana said she never shared it. She only sent it to. Back to Raquel to be like, I know what the fuck you did. You're. Why are you with my man? I'm done with you. So there's never been any proof on any of that to see that there's any wrongdoing there. I don't know where that lawsuit stands. But now Tom Sandoval is saying that his lawyers came to him and said, if you point the finger and are part of this reality reckoning at NBC and Bravo and say they exploited my story, they forced this story to happen with Raquel. Just point the finger of them wrongdoing as far as production and a network, then we will help. This is what Tom is claiming. Then we will make sure that the lawsuit that Raquel is doing against you, Tom Sandoval, will be dropped. He's like, no, I'm not pointing the finger at Bravo or my production company because they didn't do that. They didn't do it. So again, we don't know what's happening with him. We don't know what is going to happen with this show. He has still got his Tom Sandoval and the extras performing people are still going and enjoying it. He has a new girlfriend and we'll see what happens. But that's pretty juicy. And then no word from Bethany Frankel. I guess with her be strong and everything. We don't know what she's doing with this reality reckoning. I think she's just acting like she never was behind it. Meanwhile, Raquel ended her podcast and is dating a rocket scientist and has moved the fuck along. Okay, so also, I thought this was interesting. Kristen Cavallari, she said that she wants her next boyfriend to have had a vasectomy. I think this is so interesting and smart and kind of a great conversation. She is like 36 or 37. She broke up with the hot tick talking Montana boy who was 24, said it was the best sex of her life. But they broke up because he, you know, she felt he needed to live his life and whatever. I heard rumors that he was going to go on a dating show or wanted to. And she was like, okay, I think I've had my fun. I think we've screwed each other enough. Whatever. And she, you know, I guess isn't really sure that she wants to have any more kids. Or maybe she has decided, I don't want to. She probably has decided, I don't want to have any more kids, but I don't want to be faced with a guy who might want to have more. And then this is an issue again. And the ideal person to get with is someone who's had a vasectomy because that guy has decided, I am done. Either I've never wanted kids or I don't want any in the future. There's also been talk in Hollywood, and I said it years ago when I was at Chelsea lately. I said, I think that George Clooney has had a secret vasectomy. And it was a pretty, like, what Thought. I have since found out that there are very successful men who have never had kids that have had secret vasectomies in which they save their sperm, just like you'd freeze your eggs. And they save it for when they are ready to have kids. And that way no one can say, you know, poke holes in the condoms or act like they're, you know, barren and then get pregnant and complicate their life if they're not ready to be a father with this girl that they're sleeping with. So I still think that's possible because George Clooney had all these girlfriends up until he met them all, and then they had twins, which I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking maybe a fertility situation. Fertility doctor came into play, which would be perfect. Here's my sperm. Let's do some eggs. And then she had the kids. So she might find a guy that either a has had a couple kids and gotten a vasectomy, or he's like, I've had a vasectomy until I'm ready to have kids with somebody else. But I still think you need to get with Kristen. She says, I want a Brady Bunch situation. I think she needs to be very clear. If you're going to get with me, I'm done having kids. It's okay if you bring some with you, but saving your sperm, whatever. We were done. And I think that's cool. I think it's an interesting thing. And I, you know, and I wonder when women are in that place of like between 35 and 42, where you can still pretty easily get pregnant just by doing it the old fashioned way. You gotta be real clear with your person. You know, Giselle, happily, I think she's pregnant. She's either 42 or 44. Pregnant with the Jiu Jitsu. Jiu Jitsu, karate times two guy. You know, it's all good for her, but for somebody else that maybe doesn't have millions and millions of dollars or just doesn't want to go down that path, you gotta spell it out. A lot of people were disturbed by Kim Kardashian going to this lacma, which is a beautiful LA museum here. They have like some fancy thing every year. I listen, she has perfect boobs and a perfect cleavage. And she got this big amethyst cross, purple jewels cross that she got at an auction from Princess Diana. She had the money, she bought it and she styled it with just a very low cut white halter dress. And I thought it looked sexy. And I don't think. And I think it's a good way to get people talking about you because I definitely think we don't talk about them as much as we used to. I think it's stunning. I think it's cool that she added other necklaces with it. And it's not like Diana gave it to her because they were best friends. And she gave it to her in a church and was like, I'm. This is my gift to you before I die, because I want you to, you know, prey on it. It wasn't that she went just like, she could buy jewels. I think she's bought stuff from the Liz Taylor collection, like, so. But it made me go, ooh. Like, I almost want to wear something like that costume because it's very. It like, looks very cool. And anyway, so that was some conference. I thought she looked good. Also. Diddy, or whoever's playing Diddy in prison, celebrated his 55th birthday behind bars. And there was video of his kids with his youngest daughter. I don't know who her mom is, but the youngest daughter was really cute, singing Happy Birthday to him on the phone with a bundt cake. And, you know, he had some sad meal, they said. Daily Mail said he celebrates his birthday behind bars with sad prison meal. Well, I hope it's a sad prison meal if you're behind bars for trafficking. I hope it is, but there you go. All right, you guys. I was able to talk to Janelle Yes. Wife number two of Sister Wives. Now, if you're, you know about Sister Wives, even if you're not watching it this season, you will absolutely love this interview. You loved the one with Christine. Wife number three, this is Janelle. Wife number two, she too has left Kody. And it's so interesting. We get into her background, how she was previously married, how her, the connection of her mother with Kody's family, her connection with Mary's family. A lot of the things that I would hear, bits and pieces as I've watched it over the years and were confused by what happened, what it's like, what it really was like to film the show, a lot of the things about filming the show and whatnot. I was afraid that in asking her, she wouldn't answer or maybe they would make me not air it. So it's a really behind the scenes kind of an interview. And we did it on Zoom and it was really great to talk to her. And so here we go with Janelle from Sister Wives. This Juicy Scoop episode is brought to you by nocd. When people joke about being a little ocd, I wish they knew what it's really like to live with ocd because it's nothing like the stereotypes about having to be super neat, tidy and organized. OCD is a serious condition that can become totally debilitating. The thoughts can feel so real that seeking help can seem like a huge risk. It can feel like there's nothing you can do. But it doesn't have to stay that way because OCD is highly treatable with the right kind of care. And that's why I want to tell you about nocd. With no cd, you could do virtual therapy with a licensed therapist who specializes in OCD so they understand what you're going through and know how to help. No CD therapists are trained in exposure and response prevention, or erp. It's a type of therapy that is specifically designed for OCD and it's considered the gold standard treatment. 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Plus, if you ever decide to resell, Keur helps keep your bags in perfect condition so you can get the top dollar. In today's world, where overcompensation is a big issue, it's crucial to make things last as long as possible. And by taking care of our handbags with ke, we can do just that. There's a limited supply available, so head to my cur to get your leather care kit today. That's my C U I R E dot com. The best way to make your handbag last forever. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I'm so excited to be talking to the first time ever I've watched you for 17 seasons. Janelle Brown, mother, former polygamous wife of Kody Brown, wife number two star of TLC Sister wives. Welcome to Juicy Scoop.

[Heather McDonald]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Angie Hicks]

Wow. Okay. I have so many questions. So one thing.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Angie Hicks]

One thing that you've said since the breakup with Cody is you're like, I always liked polygamy, and I wouldn't be opposed to possibly joining that situation again.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Angie Hicks]

So tell me again what your history was with polygamy growing up before you met Cody and accepted his proposal.

[Heather McDonald]

So I grew up in the mainstream LBs church, and they actually did away with polygamy in, like, the 1890s. So they don't live polygamy. There were groups of people who felt like that was the wrong decision, so they continued to live it. They were offshoot groups. So when I first met Cody and when I first met Mary and her family, they were kind of like my token polygamous friends. I would always like, oh, I have these friends. And they're, you know, it was always this novelty thing to talk about.

[Angie Hicks]

And you knew. And you knew that they were polygamous because they. They. Even though she was the only wife at the time, they said, this is the lifestyle we're looking forward to.

[Heather McDonald]

Sorry. This is Mary and her family way before.

[Angie Hicks]

Oh, her family. So Mary came from polygamy?

[Heather McDonald]

Yes. Yes.

[Angie Hicks]

Oh, okay.

[Heather McDonald]

So I knew Mary's family, and so they were always kind of like my token polygamous friend, like a party thing you brought up, like something you talked about. And when I first met them, I remember being shocked because I didn't know people still live polygamy. I mean, I lived in Utah my whole life. I never knew any polygamous, you know, but. Yeah, so that was a big shock for me in high school to realize that people still lived polygamy and they're living right there as neighbors, people that, you know, you saw all the time but didn't think about. I don't know. So. So it was after. I was probably in my early 20s when I started to investigate more of the fundamentalist Mormon beliefs. And Mary's mom, she was amazing. She was an amazing lady, and she really did meet with me and study with me and kind of help me sort of discover if this was something that I wanted to pursue. So thanks. Thank Mary's mom, because I'm here. So.

[Angie Hicks]

And what are. And when someone is kind of like, let me walk you through it. Do they share the benefits of it, like we saw in the show that. Like, it. You know, what. What are the things that appeal to you in discovering it?

[Heather McDonald]

You know, really, for me, it was really about. It was about faith. It was about the doctrines. Like, so that was where it's really based. It's not. They don't really talk to you about the lifestyle.

[Angie Hicks]

You know what I mean?

[Heather McDonald]

Like, they're. Because every family is different. Every person is different. So for us, it's very much based on scripture and prayer, you know, to decide if you want to live this way.

[Angie Hicks]

What. And what is this, the doctrine where. What does it say that. Why this should be the path you take?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, it really is just a pathway, I think, to. I think to like, to become better. Right. To strive for perfection. Every religion has a pathway, moksha for the. You know, I mean, like. You know, I mean, like, everybody has a pathway to more righteousness or to a health righteous, a more righteous living. And really, we just. It's really a personal growth formula, I think. So the men have to grow and the women have to grow.

[Angie Hicks]

So then. So you were, like, friends with Mary and Cody, and now weren't you married briefly, prior to Cody?

[Heather McDonald]

I was married. That's how I knew Mary's family. I was married to Cody's or to Mary's brother very, very briefly. I think we lived together for maybe like, five months because it was not. It did not stick. And that was over before I met Cody. That was over.

[Angie Hicks]

And then didn't your mom or somebody else marry Kody's dad?

[Heather McDonald]

Yes. So she came to save me, you know, from the pl. Because sure as Heck, nobody, none of her kids were going to marry a polygamist because there is a lot of stigma against polygamy and especially in Utah, a lot of stigma. They're treated very like second class citizens in lots of ways. But she was going to save me from the polygamist, but she ended up marrying Cody's dad. Yeah.

[Angie Hicks]

And are they still together?

[Heather McDonald]

He passed away in 2013. 14. So they. They were together till he passed away. Yeah.

[Angie Hicks]

But were they in a monogamous marriage?

[Heather McDonald]

No plural.

[Angie Hicks]

How many wives did Cody have?

[Heather McDonald]

Cody's dad?

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Cody's dad had three wives. So.

[Angie Hicks]

And your mom was number, what, three.

[Heather McDonald]

They married late in life.

[Angie Hicks]

And so then your mom, after she came to visit you and say, don't do it, fell in love with Cody's dad and the. And the lifestyle as well.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, yeah. So there you go.

[Angie Hicks]

And then jump to you guys, you know, then you. Then Christine comes on and you were fine about that because you. This was the lifestyle you wanted, correct?

[Heather McDonald]

Yes, yes.

[Angie Hicks]

In what he was saying in the latest episodes, Cody, I thought it was like, really, this is a different Cody.

[Heather McDonald]

But I'm very different Kody. You know what I mean? Yeah. Tell me what.

[Angie Hicks]

And I think that is really. No, I mean, it's just so fascinating. And that's why I covered your show so much, because first of all, you guys are all really interesting and likable and so real and so different than like the Real Housewives type of things because you really never change as far as, like, who you are at the core. You're not getting tons of plastic surgery. You're not, you know, living a different life. You're not going on a million red carpets or so. I find that really very interesting. And of course, the story is the MO Is the only story on tv. Like, it unique. So. But what he was saying is, you know, not. And I'm gonna give him some grace, okay? Because everybody's always going after him. But I feel like he is. Which happens with a lot of people when they kind of leave a religion. And essentially polygamy was his own religion. You guys kind of did your own thing.

[Heather McDonald]

It was, it was. It's a part of our religion. It was. It's a part of our religion.

[Angie Hicks]

And because it didn't work out, now he's in his 50s and he's had three wives have left him and he only has the one. And I think he was trying to say, like, I was so committed to the lifestyle that looking back, because he's been rejected by you And Christine and I mean, he's mean about Mary, but it feels like it was more obviously you're doing to leave him. So I think to justify his rejection, he's saying, I was so committed to this lifestyle and I thought everybody wanted it. And looking back, I didn't marry with the same type of passion and love. It was just, here's this person, she's. She's good enough for now and she wants to do the lifestyle and we're going to go in this path that God told me to do. And that's. I mean, do you feel like that's kind of what he was saying? Like he's like mad that. I think he's mad that he. Now that he's left with the one wife, Robin, I think he's kind of like, why did I do it all? Like, which is weird because whenever anybody. I think the beautif. The most beautiful thing about a divorce is if you do have kids, you can always say, well, I wouldn't have this kid if I didn't. So it's like it's just a path. But it's like he's just kind of being like, why did I ever do. I should have. Maybe I should have never done this in the first place. I married the wrong women.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. I have no idea why he says that. You know, for me, it's really hard to judge the decisions and the life I was living in my 20s and 30s than it from my perspective now. Do you know what I mean? I think any. Relate. Any relationship I were to have, just like the relationship he has with Robin would be very different now than the relationship I had with him in the beginning. I think we all grow and evolve, right? And I don't know if he needs to somehow, like he. Instead of just comparing, I think and saying, hey, wow, that was a really. That's a very different relationship experience. I think he wants to try to somehow. I don't know, you'd have to ask him. But to me it's like he's just trying to validate where he's at now. I have no idea why we have these beautiful children and Christine and I've always said, like, we do not regret anything that we have done. We don't regret our life at all because we have this amazing family. I've had all these life experiences. Like, I don't regret one bit of it, you know, so.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah, and I think, you know, that's the thing. Like life is, you know, life is long and it's, you know, so let's now get into what was going on. So when we. When the show first start started, now I remember from I gotta let my dog out one.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Oh, sorry.

[Angie Hicks]

Okay. So when I remember Christine kind of telling me that, like, the show started because it was just going to be this one, like, this one off, where you're going to participate and like, a documentary, like, one off. And then they discovered you. And. And so I want to hear from you, like, when you agreed to let cameras come in. And essentially when you say once we became public, that's what you're referring to as we're on this show. Was anybody else in your life, like your mom, who was married to Cody's dad, other people? Were they excited for you at any time through the 17 seasons where, like, they were like, I don't think you should do this anymore.

[Heather McDonald]

You know, we. And I'm not sure how much, you know. So Christine had become very involved with a political action kind of group to try to help bring issues to the legislature and the law people of the law people. That's so sophisticated. But the legal people. The legal people in Utah. Right. Tried to advocate for plural families. So we were approached about doing a show a couple of different times. The one that took was a gentleman who really, truly believed that there was way more to the story than what was being shown. Right. Sorry. There's a very loud plane. I don't know if you can hear.

[Angie Hicks]

I can't hear. Keep going.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, good.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And so we went with him, and it was. We trusted him. And he was. He turned out to be such a great guy. Like, he was a really great guy. And so he brought the show to fruition. I remember being so scared. I was so scared because we were essentially gonna go right in the face of the law of Utah. And I remember being so scared that they would come and arrest me at work or, like, do something crazy, you know, separate our family. We did get a lot of kickback from our religious community at the time because they were scared, too. They're like. Because usually how it worked in Utah is you sort of just kept your head down. You just didn't make it rock the boat. You kept your head down. People knew you were living polygamy, but, you know, just. They didn't say don't ask, don't tell, kind of in a different sort of way. So our community was very scared. So most of them were scared about us going public, and then by association, they would be outed. But there were a lot that were like, yeah, it's about time. Like, the younger generation, especially. It's about time that we start to show that we're normal.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah. And so. So I didn't realize right when the show started, Robin was already in the fold talking to Cody and all of that that I just discovered. I thought that you guys already had, like, a season or two before she came on, so she. She had entered it with. No. Just to clear up any misconceptions. It wasn't like, part of the attraction of her joining your family was, oh, I get to be on tv because it hadn't started yet.

[Heather McDonald]

No. In fact, she almost didn't join the family because she wasn't sure she wanted to be on tv. Like, she almost didn't. So. So she already was there courting, and she were already courting at the time that we decided to, you know, have the first episode or whatever.

[Angie Hicks]

And. And so that we see, you know, when the kids are little. Now, one of my things, when you guys would show, like, Thanksgiving and Christmas. Christmas and all the tables and everything.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Angie Hicks]

Would a camera guy come for that, or would you just shoot your own stuff and send it?

[Heather McDonald]

They were there. Like, they were there. They were so dedicated. We have a really amazing crew, so we have had pretty much the same crew. A few people have come and gone, but pretty much the same crew from the beginning. And we wanted that because of the kids. Right. They were in the house with us and the kids. And so we just. We know these people. Like, we just know them. Like, we've worked with them for so many years. They're sort of like. Sort of like the work family. Right. That you just know so well.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

In fact, we were just talking today because my daughter just had her 29th birthday, and they're like, wow, remember when she was, like, 15? I'm like, yeah, I know. I know.

[Angie Hicks]

Wait, who's 29?

[Heather McDonald]

Maddie. Maddie.

[Angie Hicks]

And Maddie has the two kids, right?

[Heather McDonald]

She has three.

[Angie Hicks]

Oh, she's three now. Okay.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Angie Hicks]

So I think it's really fun that we, you know, saw them grow up. I know none of them wanted a polygamous life. Several of your kids and Christine kids have married, and it's fun to see them have the babies and all of that. And also that they have led really normal lives. And I think that is really fascinating in they. In them, like, going, like when you guys were at the cul de sac in Las Vegas and stuff, so they would just go to normal school and nobody said anything or anything.

[Heather McDonald]

Maybe because it was Vegas. I don't know.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah, maybe I mean, they're like, be like, you. We won't talk about your parents. You don't talk about ours, right? Yeah, I don't.

[Heather McDonald]

I think it was just kind of like. It was like, okay, cool. Like, hey, we had an. I had a neighbor when I lived in Vegas that went to work dressed as Elvis in a pink Cadillac every night. So maybe it's just out. It was just out. You know, maybe it was just lady guess. But for them, it was just like, it was an icebreaker, right? There was never really any prejudice. Like, it was sort of like, oh, hey, you're those guys. Okay, cool. Like, you know, and Hunter played football, and he was doing a body, and, like, Logan wrestled and, like, Garrison was in the JROTC or whatever, you know? I mean, like, had normal lives. Like, it just sort of like. It was kind of like, I think kids are pretty easy. I don't think kids are. I don't think kids.

[Angie Hicks]

But again, it was sort of unique. If I compare it to the other reality shows that are a lot more, you know, glossy. In Hollywood, it seems like the kids perform for the cameras or one really kind of wants a bigger career in the cameras. And all your kids, like, went to college and, like, lived their own thing. Now. I always thought that the cul de sac was, like, the greatest situation for a polygamous family ever. Everyone had their own family, easy for him to get from house to house if he forgot his favorite shoes. So when he decided to let's. We found this land in off Coyote Pass, and you always seem to be the most, like, accommodating, like, all right, I guess we're doing this. But I remember saying this to Christine. Like, looking back now, of course, you could never say it coulda, woulda, shoulda. But I'm gonna kind of say coulda, woulda, shoulda. Do you think if you guys never had left the cul de sac? I feel like the minute you left the cul de sac and then add Covid to it, and then this incredible challenge of building either one big house or four different. Five different houses, whatever, on this land that isn't part of a community that already has electricity and water. And, like, do you ever wonder if. If things might have been different, probably, you know, or. Or you. Or it's good that it all happened because you would have just been staying in the same state of mind for another 10 years.

[Heather McDonald]

You know, I. I think it would have come to the same eventual outcome. I mean, the children were getting older. I mean, that was factor. I think that was a big factor, that the children had kind of their own opinions, and I think the cracks were already there. I do. I'm actually kind of glad that we moved to Flagstaff. I think it gave me a lot more freedom to leave, to, you know, to be. I wasn't as encumbered, you know, here. I didn't have a mortgage. Some of those things that made it a little bit easier to exit. But I think that it would have eventually unraveled just because at the crux of it is Cody's relationship with his children. And then also, too, that the. The three marriages that he'd had were sort of starting to. To wane, to crack, to fall apart. You know, he's just. He obviously has some sort of. He says some sort of soulmate relationship with Robin. We could have continued if he had been able to maintain relationships with everybody in a fair and equitable way, but I just don't think he had it in him. You know, he turned 50, and that was a time where he really took stock of his life, and I think he just decided it was too much for him. That's me. You'll have to ask him. But that's. That's kind of what I see happening.

[Angie Hicks]

And so when you. So you started to see that where. Between the kids being older, living in all these different distances away in Flagstaff, and then add the COVID stuff where he, oh, I can't see you, or the kids can't see me, or interpreting them as being disrespectful and stuff. I think as a viewer, I think that, you know, I think the ultimate sister wife thing is that you're selfless. You're selfless.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Angie Hicks]

You put your husband above you. You put the. I can't be jealous, or I. I have to love my sister wives, even though they're. We're all loving the same man. And then, of course, the kids come next and. Or first or so I think it's a very selfless thing. And I think that with you and Christine, I mean, you know, that you. That you had accepted that he wasn't that great of a partner to you. But once you saw that he wasn't, being the father that he once was, is where, I think as a viewer, you guys started to really check out.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, first of all, I need to kind of go back. There was. There are some cultural assumptions that are hard to not make right. I mean, in some of the more fundamental polygamous cultures, I mean, that might be a belief, but definitely, we definitely consider ourselves as individuals and that our needs are important and we feel. Actually, probably I would advocate for my children far above Cody's needs. Like, it wouldn't have been that Cody was somebody that we needed to, you know, put on this pedestal or honor as some sort of head. It was more of a. We really did work together as a team. It was an inequality thing, really. I just think. I just think it was that the children were getting older and they had different opinions. It became harder for him to sort of lead his family. You know, he had a hard time finding much common ground when he disagreed with the kids so much. I just. I. It might have just been a natural evolution of the age of the. Of the children and everything just kind of starting to disintegrate now.

[Angie Hicks]

Christine made it very clear over and over in the show that it seemed like it was. They were not being intimate at all or very, very, very infrequently over the last decade of their relationship. But you've sort of insinuated that that wasn't really the case with you guys.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, no, it wasn't for us. I mean, that's why I've said Christine and I have. Christine and I had very different marriage relationships, for sure.

[Angie Hicks]

And so then, since you were still as an intimate relationship, was that, like, more heartbreaking than to make the hard decision of, like, I just don't want to be part of this anymore?

[Heather McDonald]

No, really, for me, the decision was that the relationship was just waning. Like, we. We had grown very distant. Like, I mean, we were still friends. Everything was. You know, we all. You know, he was still. He still came around on kind of a regular schedule. He was still. We're still going through all the motions, but I think we both had sort of emotionally drifted away. And so for me, it was really more. I. I remember thinking when he had such a big break with the kids, because the kids are what had kept me in the relationship, because I didn't want to rock their world too much. I really wanted to make sure that my kids. There was too much cost to the kids. I felt like, in leading their father. But when that sort of fell out of the equation, I'm like, oh, I could leave. And it felt like it was time to. You know, he was starting to make a lot more noise about, you know, he really liked the way that Robin treated him as had, you know, all the things, like, all the things about Robin that he really liked. And I just thought, you know, I think it's. I think it's time. Look, marriages, they. Relationships, ebb. And flow, right? You know, that you've been in a relationship long enough, you know, ebbs and flows. And we have had those periods in our marriage where it ebbs and flows, but this was different. This was definitely very different from that.

[Angie Hicks]

And I mean, in chronicling it on the reality show, and, you know, not to, like, break the fourth wall, but was there ever a thought of, like, well, how does. How would this work for the show? Or did. Or was it always like, you can all follow us the way you've been following us at the different houses? Why does it matter? Like, I feel like the show has only gotten better. Like, I. I'm more intrigued. I like seeing all the different families, you know, But I wonder. At one time, it was like, well, this is our livelihood. And, like, what about that?

[Heather McDonald]

I remember when Christine started to make noise about leaving because she was talking to my children about it, because she was honestly testing the waters because she wasn't going to leave if it was that she would lose that relationship with the kids. Right? That was first and foremost. So she was kind of testing the water with them. And I started to hear about it, and I did worry. I'm like, okay, so what does this mean for our life? Because here we are in these houses all together, like, what does this look like? Because that could be major. It could make big, big changes, right? In A, the show, and then b, just, how do we do this? How do we do this? So I don't know if it really kept us together longer, but there was definitely some thought about, well, how does this change things? Right? I think ultimately at the core, and I don't know, you'd have. I mean, maybe you've talked to Christine. For me, it was really about the kids. When I no longer felt that there would be too high of a cost emotionally for the kids, I felt like I was okay to leave.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah. And with. So. So we see. You know, we see, like, one thing that Christine said, she said on my show, and then I just saw it on one of the episodes recently, is she said, now that I have fallen in love with David, I understand what a soulmate is. And it seems like she almost forgave Cody a little bit in saying, yeah, if, like, if I had three men or whatever, I wouldn't want to leave David to go visit the other ones because I feel a stronger connection, this soulmate connection. And so my question was in, you know, in bringing Robin in and you guys said, you know, she was very giving about the wedding. She wanted it to be about the whole thing. She's cried and said, I never wanted to be the only wife. I wanted the polygamous life. I wanted. She wanted the big house, that coyote house. She wanted to raise all the kids together. Was there any moment where before it kind of really came to a head that you felt like, oh, whoa, there is something different going on with them, that it might whatever be, be on a totally different level than us, than me, than Christine and then Mary.

[Heather McDonald]

You know, look, every relationship was different. And I, I was really happy with what I had. I was very comfortable, I was very independent. I learned early on to kind of communicate with Cody what I needed from him. And I was pretty confident in, in my, I'm confident in my own skin. And so I could see that there were some differences in that relationship and didn't really bother me because technically part of the growth trajectory for men is that they need to learn to be able to manage and have capacity for all those relationships. Right? And so I saw it, it didn't bother me. In fact, my kids now are like, wow, mom, didn't you see him do xyz? I'm like, I don't know. I just, I just wasn't tracking it. Didn't. I didn't need to track it. I was okay in my life. I was okay in my relationship.

[Angie Hicks]

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[Angie Hicks]

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[Heather McDonald]

What did.

[Angie Hicks]

What was your, like, what was your job that brought in an income while Christine helped kind of rear the younger kids while you were working and bringing in an income?

[Heather McDonald]

Sort of an admin type position. Administrative assistant, clerical. Then I got an account. I finished my accounting degree. I went back to school full time. When in my early 30s, Gabriel was just a baby. I was working full time, and I finished my accounting degree. And so I did have. I had a brief season where I worked as an accountant, but then the show came, so I didn't do that very long. So I always had. I had a lot of. I, I worked for several government agencies. Caseworker. I did lots of different things, but.

[Angie Hicks]

And, and that was something. That was an arrangement that both you and Christine liked, that you had, that you were working outside of the home and she was working inside the home with all the kids.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. I don't know. It sort of just evolved that way. I always had a career before or I always had a job that was more career oriented before I married Cody. And I just continued working in those spaces. And Christine really did want to be home more with the kids, and she had the skill set for it. She doesn't get freaked out by a bunch of mess in the kitchen because they can clean. She makes. She gets it so they can clean it up really fast. I would be like, oh, it would be too much for me. Like, she was perfect to be home with the kids. Yeah.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah. And then when he made references and when I saw you guys both at the Us Weekly party, I was like, I brought this up. He. It's like he got angry, Cody. Because now you guys, as you know, in the last few years have really formed a really beautiful bond. Friendship and true sisterhood, you know, like your real sisters. And he was like, you know, he's like, so pissed. Because I'm sure there were times just like any other family where you might have, you know, bitched a little bit about Christine and Christine may have bitched about you. And he felt like, he was. He's like, I deserve the medal of Honor, because back in those days, I was able to manage this all, and now you guys have kicked me to the curb, and now you're besties. And I think that's, like, that's the truth.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, it could be.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, there is definitely some truth there. But, you know, it's true. Because now Christine and I, without the conflict of trying to work out being all married, right. In a marriage. In a marriage relationship, all we have now are the kids and all the crazy things that have happened to us over our lives. You know, like, I spent as much time with her as I have my own sister. Really?

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

All these crazy life stories. You can be like, oh, you remember that?

[Angie Hicks]

Oh, yeah, I remember.

[Heather McDonald]

Like, you don't even have to have those. Like, you know, I mean, you have all that history, that shared history. So it actually has made for a very beautiful friendship because, like, we just know each other, right? We just know each other. We did this quiz where we're like, what does she hate? I'm like, I know it. I know. Like, I know. You know, we know each other. So.

[Angie Hicks]

And so with. With Mary, it always feel. Felt like, you know. Yeah. Especially towards the end, you know, And I think it must have been hard being that she wanted to have more children and only had her one child while you guys were, you know, probably, you know, constantly taking pregnancies, tests and, you know, getting pregnant. You guys were pregnant a lot at the same time. And so I would imagine that dynamic would be hard, too. Like, you want to be happy for your pregnancy, but at the same time, I mean, I remember just even with my own life, my sister and I both have, you know, two kids each, but there was a time where she was struggling to get pregnant and having miscarriages, things like that. And then I tried to get pregnant right away. I got pregnant, and I kept it from her for, like, when I finally told her, she's like, how far along are you? And I'm like, 10 weeks. And that made her feel worse because she's like, oh, you didn't want to tell me? You know, So I think that could have been really a difficult dynamic where you, you know, you're thinking about someone else's feelings, but you also deserve to be, like, happy and pregnant.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. So are you asking kind of about the dynamic between. Yeah.

[Angie Hicks]

Like. Like, I wonder if that had added. Because I think as a viewer, we don't really understand, like, we've heard little things when you. Before the Cul de sac. It was that she was very strict and she didn't want the kids coming through her living room to go to one of the houses. And it was a pathway. And. And that obviously built some resentment because it made your life as. As, you know, a contributing person to the family with kids and stuff. Like, really, my kids can't, like, walk through the living room. Like, I get how, like, those things can build up. And then, you know why you are where you are now, kind of.

[Heather McDonald]

So Cody has this. Cody wants to harp on this, too. Like, you do not have to be friends to be sister wives. You don't. I mean, our relationships come together very. We believe, very inspired. Like, there's a lot of prayer. There's a lot of discussion and stuff, you know, about who's going to come into your family. And just because they're meant for your family doesn't mean that they're going to be this personality that you get along with. Obviously, they get along well with your husband. They make enough that they're enough of a couple to be a couple. But, like, just because you're in a relationship with a. With a mare in a marriage with a sister wife doesn't mean that you necessarily always get along. So for me and Mary, it was really just more. We are very different personalities, Very different personalities. And that really was hard in the very beginning because I sort of went into this idealistically like, oh, we're gonna all just be friends. And. But no. And that was a kind of a hard realization that you weren't going to always be friends. Christian and I had a lot more common in common. Like, with the way that we viewed things, we viewed the world a little bit more. But so for Mary and I, what we did is we actually learned how to be able to work together as a team. And outside of the family relationship, when that no longer existed, there wasn't really a whole lot of anything that we needed to interact about. We have no ill will towards each other. We just don't have anything that we run. We. We do together. You will see in this upcoming season, though, we actually do find something that we work together on, and it's good.

[Angie Hicks]

So, yeah, and, yeah, it's. You know, and then she. We see that she kind of had her own thing going with her, her Airbnb or bread breakfast, and that was a whole nother state away. And now, you know, the real juicy thing that happened with her was the catfishing thing, which I find really fascinating on. It was almost like, ahead of its time. Now I feel like there's so many documentaries on catfishing and whatnot and people. And a lot of the common catfish stories that I've recently followed are women posing as men to pursue sometimes a girl they know like a best friend. And they get off on seeing their best friend get all excited. And the guy. They constantly can't meet this guy. And so I can see and then put on it that she was, you know, had the fame from the show and there's fans and there's social media and all that kind of stuff.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Angie Hicks]

When. How did you guys find Adam? Did you not know until we saw it, like, in the tabloids? Or did you know prior that this was happening?

[Heather McDonald]

I had never heard of catfishing. I remember vaguely seeing something on a TV listing and I thought, that's weird. Why are they have a show about catfishing? I'm thinking, like, catfishing, like, yes, you fish. You know what I mean? For catfish. Like that old country song, like, yeah, yeah, Cats in the Dark or whatever. You know what I mean? Whatever. Like the catfish. So I didn't know, but I did think that she was acting different. Like, she was acting very different. Less engaged with the family, that kind of thing. So I think it's one of the most horrible things. Like, what a horrible way to be. To be this person who gets off on that. It just. You do. So much devastation.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

So much devastation. And for what? Just because, I don't know, like, you can't have a real life or, I don't know, you can't make real friendships. I have no idea. I don't understand it. So.

[Angie Hicks]

Right. And then the victim of it always is like, how could I be so stupid? It's like, well, you. What? You weren't being stupid. This person approached you and said that you were fabulous and interesting, and she obviously wasn't. We know now Cody never felt that way about her. So even if she went to bed telling herself, oh, no, like, he loves me, because the covenant says he does, you know, she didn't. So when she got it from somebody else, that was, you know, fulfilling a need and giving her compliments and giving her attention, I really. I can't blame any woman for engaging in that. You know, why wouldn't you?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, let me do it. Let me answer that in two parts. So I have to tell you that Cody, as much as Cody wants to say now, oh, my gosh, it was horrible. I never loved them. I was there. I know what was said. I know how he acted. That was not the case now. He wants to sort of revise history, I think. But then the second part is, I do think Cody and Mary's relationship was definitely struggling at the time or at that point. And I think I watched. And a lot of times, catfish fishers are, like, more successful with women who are not getting their emotional needs met, Right?

[Angie Hicks]

Totally.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, it's just. It's. It's their. It's their. Their victim profile.

[Angie Hicks]

Right.

[Heather McDonald]

And meeting some of the people that Mary met, they all sort of have a profile. Right. That they. They're vulnerable. So they're. So that these people are preying on these vulnerable women.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah. And when it came down to, okay, because Robin's coming into the family with three other kids, and therefore it would benefit her more than Mary, whose child is now almost grown. The whole divorce thing, that didn't really involve you and Christine because you guys didn't have the legal marriage either. But did you at any time feel like, were you, like, 100% this is the right thing to do, or did you feel like this was wrong to even bring up or ask? I don't know how it came about. I don't know if Mary offered or what. How it came about.

[Heather McDonald]

What I remember is that Mary said that she had felt impressed, like a spiritual impression that she should be doing this. I don't know. That's what I remember. And I remember when she said something and we were all there together, I was so shocked because Mary very much put a lot of value in that legal. That legal relationship. And I thought, wow, that's a pretty big sacrifice, you know, on her part to do that. But we all understood it was so that Robin. So Cody could have dropped Robin's children, and, you know, and we were fine. Like, we just knew that was it. It didn't really change things. I did have some concerns. I remember addressing them with Cody, and he reassured me that it would be fine, that we would be fine. Nothing's changing.

[Angie Hicks]

What was your concern? That it would affect Mary later in.

[Heather McDonald]

A really negative way, or actually us? Like, I worried that it would affect Cody and I. And I asked him point blank, and he said, no, everything is still the same. So.

[Angie Hicks]

Because. Because by him now really being married to Robin, you felt it might affect your relationship?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, just like the shift in dynamics. I wasn't. You know, I remember thinking, I wonder if this is going to affect us. And so I asked him, and he. He answered me and said, no, everything is. Everything is the same. And really, it was like there was no big differences in our relationship. About the bat.

[Angie Hicks]

So when you get to Coyote Pass, he presents the big house, which actually was stunning. And he was like, this way kids can come home and visit, and you each have your own kitchen and da, da, da. Which is so funny. Like, I just want my own kitchen, which I kind of. I kind of get it. But as someone that, like, doesn't cook that much, I'd be like, who cares?

[Heather McDonald]

It's a hard. It's a hard thing. It's a hard thing. For some reason, I do not know what it is. Even if you're not someone who cooks that much, a kitchen is a very. You know, And I want things that you want a certain way. Like what? Maybe you want to cook your. Your. You got, like, I order a lot of those meals in the mail because, like, they're so awesome. Like, they're so easy. Right. Right in the microwave or whatever. But, you know, like, maybe you're the person who wants to have the gourmet kitchen. I mean, like, there's a lot of conflicts that happen.

[Angie Hicks]

I actually. I take it back because I actually don't like it when I'm cooking and my husband's like, you know, like, kind of sniffing around and being like, are you using that pan? Are you cleaning it? Like, so you're right. I get why you're just like, I just want my own thing.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, the kitchen, because it's such a center part of the home. It's such a. It's such a. It's a heartbeat of the home. Right. Everybody's in the kitchen at some point in the day. Right?

[Angie Hicks]

Right.

[Heather McDonald]

And it's just. It's just a very personal space. So kitchens are hard to share.

[Angie Hicks]

So when he brings up this plan, here, you can all have your own kitchen, blah, blah. And of course, Robin wants it, and you're like, down. Mary's kind of like, whatever. But Christine was like, absolutely not. And I think she probably knew that she wanted to leave and was like, if. If this goes the next step, then, like, it's like when someone is on the verge of getting divorced, and then they don't really want to buy the next house because they're like, wait, why would I do that? When I'm already thinking, like, how sometimes in a normal marriage, someone stalls a big. Another move like that, or they sell the house and they're like, let's rent. And then you find out, and then one person files like, a year later because they're like, I don't know if I want to put all of our assets, get tied into like a two year building. But you, you seemed, you know, totally down and obviously you, you really liked that area. And then you got the trailer thinking maybe that would help get things going somehow, that you were there. But then the audience was very mad that you were living on a trailer.

[Heather McDonald]

It was such a temporary thing. It really was a temporary thing. So I don't know where Christine was at that point. You'd have to ask her. And maybe you already have. Like, I know that probably by the time Covid came around and things started to go south. I know that at that point she's like, okay, I think I'm over. I'm just out. Well, I'm done with this. I don't know. At that stage of time. I know at that stage of time, her biggest concern was that she would not be able to. Cody would never really be home focusing with her. Right. She really, she really liked Cody to be home and to be totally focused at home. And Cody wasn't. He. He always liked to be sort of circulating and seeing all the kids. Right. So he wasn't ever home and just staying at her house. I do think she worried that she would see less of him because everybody else would be so close proximity. But I am totally putting words in her mouth. And you would have to ask her.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

So I don't think it was that she, that she wanted to leave. I mean, she, she and I had had conversations through the years, even clear back in Vegas, which is like, I really don't want to do this anymore. I'm like, well, that's fine. You need to figure out how to be able to support yourself, you know, and all these things. Right?

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

But I think it was that she. She was afraid that she would not have as much quality time with Cody. I would, I would bet. But you'd have to ask her.

[Angie Hicks]

I don't know. But I think that, you know, when that moment came where Mary, where she's like, I don't want to do marriage with Cody anymore. And Mary's like, look at the mountain. Like, we're going to have this big thing. And the fact that like Coyote Pass never happened.

[Heather McDonald]

I know. And it's still a bane of mine. I mean, it's still.

[Angie Hicks]

I don't know. I don't know if you can tell us where you're at with it now. Is that. Are we going to see it in the show or. Okay, don't tell me.

[Heather McDonald]

Unfolds. But yeah, like, I mean, it's. It's a really amazing place. Everybody who comes out is like, wow, it's really amazing. It's amazing. It's an amazing place. And I am very sorry that we weren't able to make something happen here because it's beautiful. It's beautiful.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

But I think Mary was just trying to cheerlead Christine because we, I think we could all see the writing on the wall at that stage, you know?

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah. So then when Christine meets her guy, you're kind of like, from what I've seen what you've said, you're like, I. I'm open to it, but I'm not going on the apps. I am also really. I'm also really fine being alone, but I'm also, like I said, wouldn't be opposed to joining another polygamous family. Do you still feel that way?

[Heather McDonald]

I don't foresee that I will be. I really would because I don't really know anybody. I'm not affiliate. I'm not really going to the churches anymore. Like, my faith is still very intact, but I don't know how I ever would. You know what I mean? But I. I just think dating in this modern age seems like brain damage. Like, it just is. It's crazy to me. So I'm not looking. I'm really. Christine really did want to find that, and I'm so not. I'm so about, like, bringing my own dreams to fruition right now. So if something organically happens and I don't know, I'm gonna be a farmer on 150 acres in North Carolina. I don't know how many guys I'm gonna meet doing that. You know what?

[Angie Hicks]

Right. So. So you. So you. We see that you guys are talking about it. So you now have the land that you are going to build a home with your daughter and her family.

[Heather McDonald]

Yep. And the end we're going to have. We're gonna. We're gonna be a flower. Flower farmers. We have flowers. Whatever that looks like flowers. Wouldn't it be so great to just come and be in the flowers? We don't know what that looks like. We're sort of making this all up as we go. We know that we're going to have flowers. We know we're going to have a home. We know people are going to be able to come. That's all we know.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Flowers.

[Angie Hicks]

Well, I mean, that's exciting. I'm like, I'm happy for you. Do you. I mean, you know, it looks like the show is going to continue forever. I mean, do you ever feel like, like, you know, I want it to end or I want or, or you know, do you ever think about it? It's been such a big part of your life. I mean, it's been like a third.

[Heather McDonald]

I know. Isn't it amazing? I know. It's so crazy. Listen, I'm here for as long as we are authentic and are interesting.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

You know, I just don't want to be not authentic. I want to be who we are. And I love. You have to know when I meet people in public, like, we have such great conversations because it's like all the ice is broken and like they just kind of tell me about their lives. And I love that part. I love that all these people are invested in what I'm doing. You know what I mean? And I hear so many interesting stories from them. So I like that part of it for sure. So as long as I can be authentic and we're interesting, I'm game, you know?

[Angie Hicks]

And you know, in one of the episodes as Mary's leaving, they like, she and Cody have this like funny laugh and like they have a moment where they're laughing and.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Angie Hicks]

And I wonder if, you know, that will be the next chapter of your show is that once, now that this is done, the herd is done, everyone really kind of moves on you. I mean, you know that you guys can laugh and have your grand, your co grandparenting moments together.

[Heather McDonald]

You know, I, I, of course, that would be wonderful. There is a lot of work Cody would need to do with his children a lot. So it won't be soon, I don't think. Yeah. Yeah. So like. But you know, there's always a lot of interaction. Christine and I really do have fun with our kids. And there's always something going on, you know, I mean they always, and Mary and Cody and Robin always have something going on too. So them.

[Angie Hicks]

And as Robin said, you know, crying, I feel like the, the idiot that was left here and I wanted to sit on a porch with my sister wives. What if a year from now they say Cody is courting this other.

[Heather McDonald]

I don't think it'll happen, but I think I don't.

[Angie Hicks]

You never know.

[Heather McDonald]

I really don't think so because he a doesn't really even embrace the LDS faith anymore. Like he doesn't even consider himself really a Mormon or LDS anymore. And I just, I just think he really did decide it was too much for him to dismanage. He really does love Robin. They have, it appears they have a great relationship. That's wonderful. You know, I don't foresee it I don't.

[Angie Hicks]

So. So none of you guys, really. I remember watching the show and it seemed like oftentimes you'd kind of have like your own little church going, like you bring out the scriptures or whatever.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, but.

[Angie Hicks]

And then, you know, and then Mary felt she wanted to go to this old church where you're like, ah. She even goes there anymore to get, like, her release. But does anybody. Is anybody really active in any other church where you actually attend, like, a brick and mortar church on a regular basis?

[Heather McDonald]

Interestingly enough, you're going to see some of that play out this season.

[Angie Hicks]

Okay.

[Heather McDonald]

So.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah. Good. Well, I so enjoyed getting to know you on a more personal level. Yeah. There's something about the show it's unlike any other. And it's very calming, too. Do people tell you that, too? Yeah, Something that's like, the simpleness of it and like, there's just something that's like, you know, the same way people say, oh, God, I can't watch this housewife shows anymore because they're fighting. It gives me anxiety. Or the same way some people go. I like the Hallmark Channel because I know no one's getting murdered. It's like, even though there's drama and stuff with you guys, there's something that. The way it's shot and the familiarity that. I think that's why people can keep coming back and, like, really look forward to it. Do you hear that a lot?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. And I love too, that multi gem will watch it. So, like, we. I get. I meet these women, they're in their, like, early 20s, like, oh, I watch it with my mom or I hear that sisters, they all, like, watch. They put the kids to bed and they all call each other during the show. Like, it provides this very interesting format for people to connect, which I think is awesome. What a fun extra side benefit, right, that we're providing a way for. For people to connect with their. Their families or friends.

[Angie Hicks]

What about the fact that then there was another show seeking Sister Wise? Did you ever watch it?

[Heather McDonald]

It was always too much. Because you have to understand, for us, plural marriage is very sacred. And there's some very specific rules about no intimacy outside of marriage like those. It's. We are a family structure. This isn't just like, hey, I'm gonna go cruising and get a girlfriend or whatever. Like, I always felt like it was definitely not who we were. And so it was a little cringy for me to watch because I'm like, I hope people don't think that that's who we are. Because it was just a different way of approaching polygamy.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah, I mean, I watched it and it was interesting, but yeah, it did. It was. Felt very different from your show. And also sometimes it felt like the wife was willing to have a sister wife because she just really wanted a friend. And then when she found out the girl didn't really want to hang out with her and she really wanted to screw the husband, then she was like, I thought I was going to get a friend out of this. So it's very weird and very different. But last question. Did you ever hear from people over the years that did seek the polygamous lifestyle because they liked what was displayed in your show and thought, I would like this?

[Heather McDonald]

Over the years, there's been a handful people, maybe, you know what I mean, that have looked into it, but you have to understand, there's a lot of people who are actually living polygamy in the United States. Not. Not hundreds of thousands, but there definitely are a lot of people, usually as part of a religion. Right. Hey. And these guys have all got their baby mamas. I mean, is that, you know. Yeah, I mean, it's a really weird version of what we do. Like.

[Angie Hicks]

Right.

[Heather McDonald]

A very distorted, watered down version, but.

[Angie Hicks]

Right.

[Heather McDonald]

I think I am really grateful because we are no longer weird. Like, yes, we're unique, unless that's interesting. But there used to be such a stigma and there used to be so much fear, and we had to be. Our kids had to be so secret, they were worried about the social repercussions. And now, you know, it's not weird. They're like, oh, oh, yeah, I watched that show or I've seen that show or, okay, okay. And I'm like, I'm really glad that we have potentially allowed people to be a little bit more open because secrecy is where bad things happen. When you have to be secret, that's where evil men flourish.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah, very true. Well, I. The show is every Sunday night. I think we have a few episodes. Episodes left.

[Heather McDonald]

And you do. And.

[Angie Hicks]

And tell everybody, like, where they can follow you and anything else you want to tell them.

[Heather McDonald]

So definitely check out the show on. On Sunday nights on tlc. And then I really. I'm a big Instagram girl, so definitely, you know, Janelle Brown117 on Instagram. That's where I am a lot of the time. First forward facing, so.

[Angie Hicks]

Well, awesome. Well, thank you so much.

[Heather McDonald]

You bet. All right, see you later.

[Angie Hicks]

Thanks. All right, you guys, thank you so much. You know where to go. Heathermcdonald.net to get tickets to my Irvine show this weekend. Also February. You guys, you're looking for a gift for a unique gift for your friend or sister or mother or husband or daughter or wife, whatever. I am coming February 14th New York City, February 15th Washington D.C. and February 16th Red Bank, New Jersey. Get those tickets now at heathermcdonald.net what a great stocking stuffer. And also that's where you can join my Patreon. Enjoy. Angie has made it easier than ever to connect with skilled professionals to get all your jobs projects done well.

[Janelle Brown]

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