Sugar Baby Confessions and Assassin’s Clues

Summary

Podcast Summary: Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald
Episode Title: Sugar Baby Confessions and Assassin’s Clues
Release Date: December 12, 2024

Introduction

In this gripping episode of Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald, host Heather McDonald delves deep into the controversial and often misunderstood world of sugar dating and sex work. Joined by guest Brooke Urich, the author of the eye-opening book Wink, Wink, Nudge, Nudge, the episode explores the intricate dynamics of transactional relationships, the rise of sex trafficking on dating platforms, and the psychological impacts on young women navigating this landscape.

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Hot Topics and Updates

Before diving into the main interview, Heather provides listeners with insightful updates on several high-profile issues:

1. Assassination Attempt by a Privileged Young Man

   • Heather McDonald [05:12]: "This kid comes from, you know, a great education, great privilege... I am going to do this Thing and become a famous hero of the people by murdering this executive of healthcare."
   • Heather discusses the unsettling case of a young, privileged individual who turned violent, examining the psychological break that led him down this dark path. She highlights the lack of empathy shown towards the victim's family and the mysterious circumstances surrounding the assassin's background.

2. Megan Fox and Machine Gun Kelly’s Breakup

   • Heather McDonald [10:30]: "Megan Fox, who is expecting her fourth child, her first with Machine Gun Kelly, they have broken up."
   • The host analyzes the high-profile couple's tumultuous relationship, the media's portrayal, and speculates on the reasons behind their split, including past rumors of other relationships and the pressures of celebrity life.

3. Jay-Z’s Legal Troubles

   • Heather McDonald [15:45]: "Jay Z never really said it didn't happen, just that this was like a travesty and this is wrong..."
   • Heather updates listeners on the ongoing legal issues surrounding Jay-Z, addressing allegations of sexual assault and the subsequent statements from his attorney. She questions the lack of detailed public information compared to other high-profile cases.

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Interview with Brooke Urich

Guest Introduction

Heather welcomes Brooke Urich, the author of Wink, Wink, Nudge, Nudge, which provides a candid look into the life of a sugar baby and the broader implications of transactional relationships.

3.1. Guest Background

• Brooke Urich [11:19]: "Well, thanks for having me, Heather. I'm really happy that you responded to me because I love the show."
• Brooke shares her journey from a journalism major to becoming a sugar baby and eventually an insider at Seeking Arrangement, a notorious sugar daddy website. She discusses her motivations for writing the book, aiming to shed light on the hidden struggles and manipulations within this environment.

3.2. Sugar Dating Experiences

• Brooke Urich [23:10]: "I certainly had a glow up, I don't think when I, I write about an experience I had when I was 14..."

• Brooke recounts her early experiences with sex and relationships, including being coerced by an older man at 14 and the subsequent use of birth control as a misguided attempt at safety. She connects her personal history to her later involvement in sugar dating, highlighting how media portrayals influenced her perception of casual sex and transactional relationships.

• Brooke Urich [38:27]: "So he took me and my friend on this weekend to where to? Well, we were in Las Vegas to Newport."

• Brooke narrates her initial encounters with sugar daddies, detailing the lavish yet hollow experiences that often end in disappointment and financial loss. She shares specific incidents where promises of lavish gifts and trips resulted in exploitation and emotional distress.

3.3. The Dark Side of Sugar Arrangements

• Brooke Urich [49:00]: "The majority of the men on the site are just trying to get sex for free or just straight up paying for sex."

• The discussion turns to the systemic issues within sugar dating platforms, where both parties often view their interactions as something other than sex work, leading to vulnerabilities and exploitations. Brooke emphasizes the prevalence of deceptive practices and the emotional toll on those involved.

• Brooke Urich [63:54]: "Sugar babies are sex workers, like straight up. Like I don't think there's a difference."

• Brooke sheds light on the blurred lines between consensual transactional relationships and sex trafficking, explaining how grooming and manipulation can escalate into coercive scenarios. She highlights the challenges victims face in seeking justice and the societal stigmas that silence many of them.

3.4. Insights and Conclusions

• Brooke Urich [89:28]: "You can find it where books are sold. It's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble."

• In wrapping up, Brooke encourages listeners to read her book for a comprehensive understanding of the sugar world. She underscores the importance of awareness and education in combating exploitation and supporting those affected by it.

• Heather McDonald [90:26]: "You're really smart and I'm really glad that you shared it."

• Heather commends Brooke for her bravery and honesty, emphasizing the critical nature of these stories in unveiling the often-hidden truths of transactional relationships and their broader societal impacts.

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Notable Quotes

• Heather McDonald [05:12]: "This kid comes from, you know, a great education, great privilege... I am going to do this Thing and become a famous hero of the people by murdering this executive of healthcare."

• Brooke Urich [49:00]: "The majority of the men on the site are just trying to get sex for free or just straight up paying for sex."

• Brooke Urich [63:54]: "Sugar babies are sex workers, like straight up. Like I don't think there's a difference."

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Conclusion

This episode of Juicy Scoop offers a profound exploration of the complexities and dark underbelly of sugar dating and sex work. Through Brooke Urich's personal narratives and professional insights, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the emotional and psychological challenges faced by those in transactional relationships. Heather McDonald's adept hosting ensures that these critical issues are presented with clarity and empathy, making this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in the nuanced realities of modern dating and exploitation.

Where to Find the Book
Wink, Wink, Nudge, Nudge by Brooke Urich is available wherever books are sold, including Amazon and Barnes & Noble. For more insights and discussions, follow Brooke on Instagram @RookeUrich.

Transcript

[Heather McDonald]

This podcast is brought to you by Aura A Complete Online Safety Toolkit this past summer, National Public Data reported a breach potentially affecting Every American. Over 2.9 billion records used for background checks were stolen. If safeguarding personal information wasn't a priority before this incident should serve as a critical wake up call. You're more vulnerable than ever in today's digital landscape. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura monitors the dark web for users phone numbers, emails and Social Security numbers, delivering real time alerts if any suspicious activity is detected. Additionally, Aura provides up to 5 million in identity theft insurance, offering a robust safety net in the event of a worst case scenario. Aura is a complete online safety toolkit which includes a variety of other features to keep you safe online, including a VPN for secure browsing data broker opt out to stop companies from selling your personal information and a password manager to help you create and store strong passwords. For a limited time, Aura is offering our listeners a 14 day trial plus a check of your data to see if your personal information has been leaked online. All for free when you visit aura.com defends that's aura.com defends to sign up for a 14 day free trial and start protecting you and your loved ones. That's a U R A dot com defense. Certain terms apply so be sure to check the site for details.

[Brooke Urich]

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[Sponsor]

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[Brooke Urich]

Heather McDonald has got the juices scoop when you're on the road. When you're on the go.

[Guest]

Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales For real life, Mr.

[Brooke Urich]

Segment, serial data and Serial Sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast.

[Guest]

Listen in, Listen up. Woop, woop.

[Brooke Urich]

Heather McDonald, juicy scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I have such a juicy interview. You guys are going to die. But first, let's just do a couple updates and Hot Topics. I want to tell you Patreon is going to be off the hook this Friday because I'm going to the Kathy Hilton holiday party for DirecTV. That's happening. I'm going to have that to talk about and so much more. So make sure you go to heathermcdonald.net join the Patreon and also that is where you'll get my tickets to my three shows in February, February 14th, New York City, D.C. is February 15th and February 16th is in New Jersey, Red Bank, New Jersey. So get on that. Okay, you guys, a little bit more about this. Such a strange situation with this young man who has been arrested, the assassin. We talked a little bit about it on Tuesday's show. We obviously know more. You'll probably know more as you're listening to this as well. This is the information I have. As we stated, this kid comes from, you know, a great education, great privilege. He went to an all boy prep school in which he was the valedictorian. There's videos of him giving a speech where he comes off just great, then went to college and there was, you know, a thing that said both of his grandparents had died in 2016, one in 2017. But a couple years ago he had some back injury and I don't know if he went surfing after or before, but he was a surfer and he got a surgery that did not go well for him. And what is being reported is that allegedly that affected his ability to have sex and that made him what people call an incel, which is this idea that these young men are really turned towards kind of hating women or they don't have sex with women and they turn inward and become kind of strange. And it's something with that because he is a good looking guy. People have shown his social media and he looks very fit and he obviously was a surfer and he's fit now what he appears to be and just went down this really crazy dark path. And it's a very interesting thing, especially someone of such great privilege that you would think what is it? What was the psychological break that made this young man decide I should be doing better in life, I shouldn't be in pain. This is someone else's fault. This is, you know, I am going to do this Thing and become a famous hero of the people by murdering this executive of healthcare. I mean, it's really crazy. I thought it was weird that he wasn't at McDonald's. Like, I'm like, was he really eating at McDonald's or was he using the Internet so he could open up his computer? Because that was, that is what he was doing and reading all. I mean, for a few days he was the hero. Like people were dressing like him. People thought he was. It was great. There was definitely a lack of empathy for the murder victim's family, his kids, his mother, anybody that was associated with him there. No, there was not a lot of outpouring for him online. What was, was like, who is this hot guy and everything? So it was interesting that he was probably looking at that when he, when the patron that was at the McDonald's called him in and he was arrested. They just, I just saw a video of him going into a jail and he's yelling out to the cameras saying this is an injustice, this is unfair. This is an injustice to the American people. His parents, I guess, have spoken slightly saying, we are just devastated, you know, but that's about it that I've, that I've seen. I'm like I said, I'm just gathering it now. So really weird and awful. Also people are saying, why do we know so much about this guy yet we still know very little about who attempted, you know, to assassinate Trump. There were other shooters recently that we don't know anything about. Maybe because that man was killed and this one is going to go on trial. I don't know. It's just very, very strange. So that's where we are with that, with Luigi Mangione and I'm sure we'll know more and more. Okay, Megan Fox, who is expecting her fourth child, her first with Machine Gun Kelly, they have broken up. TMZ is reporting they have broken up. And the latest report is people wondered if her co star for a movie that's coming out, it's called Servience or something, about a year ago she was with her co star who's a good looking guy named Michelle Morones, if there was something going on between them. But the social media in which they were flirting and doing all this was I think over a year ago in which she obviously got with Machine Gun Kelly within the year to procreate. So who knows why they broke up. Machine Gun Kelly and she are twin flames. They share the blood thing. They have on and off and on and off with their relationship. So who really Knows also a little bit update on the Jay Z. You know, in talking about it, I've read your comments, and, you know, Kate had said, like, you know, on Tuesday's show, who would let him write this statement? Well, his attorney is Alex Spiro, and he has now spoken on Jay Z's behalf, and he has an interesting thing to say. He said a young woman has contacted their law firm and said, I just want you to know that I contacted Busby's law firm to look into them representing me in a sexual assault case, but it didn't involve P. Diddy or Jay Z or anybody else. And they were saying, well, when did you meet P. Diddy? And the girl was like, well, I didn't. And then they were like, well, when were you given drugs in this particular case? And she's like, well, I wasn't. And so that is their. They're now saying that they got this call from this woman to say that maybe Busby's firm is not really. Maybe they are sort of the ambulance chaser of this. And maybe they're encouraging people to say things that aren't particularly true to add in the narrative of what they're saying. Also, people said in that initial statement that Jay Z said that he was. He never really said it didn't happen, just that this was like a travesty and this is wrong and all this other stuff. So that was a. That's a little update on that. All right, you guys, as I said, great interview. And here we go. Go to heathermcdonald.net for Patreon and everything else. And now for the Juicy Interview. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I'm very excited for my interview guest. She has written a real juicy book right here, and it's my favorite subject, which is sugar babies, sex work, high class situations, dating, living in this crazy world. And here she is, Brooke Urich. Welcome. This book is excellent.

[Guest]

Thank you.

[Brooke Urich]

Really juicy. Really good.

[Guest]

Thank you.

[Brooke Urich]

Wink, wink, Nudge. Nudge is the name of the book. Sh. Okay, girl. So we've talked a little bit before booking this interview, and why don't you give a little background of how you came about writing the book, and then we'll get into some of the subjects that you cover.

[Guest]

Well, thanks for having me, Heather. I'm really happy that you responded to me because I love the show.

[Brooke Urich]

Oh, thank you.

[Guest]

And this really is a juicy scoop, so I think your audience is gonna like it. So I worked behind the scenes at Seeking Arrangement, which is a popular notorious sugar daddy website. And I started there As a sugar baby. I actually got the job because I was cast in one of their reality shows. It was not a reality show and the casting was basically me being told to lie on camera. And so I ended up meeting the people who work for the company and later on ended up working there while also trying my own luck as a sugar baby. And I was very young. This was from the time I was 21 to the time I was 26.

[Brooke Urich]

And so what years is that approximately?

[Guest]

Started in 2013. So the book actually takes place from 2013 through 2018. Okay. And that's the way I've written the parts is they take place over like different years. And I wrote it in first person, present tense. So you can see my evolution over that time because I really did have my own coming of age and started to realize the patterns that were yucky. And at first, when you're young, you think, what's the big deal? And I feel like it's always, what's the big deal?

[Brooke Urich]

You mean being like a sugar baby or doing. Having transactional relationships with men?

[Guest]

Exactly. And I live in Las Vegas, so it really wasn't far off from the lifestyle I was kind of already living as a 21 year old girl in Las Vegas, going out to clubs and partying with rich guys. So when you read it, you can see how the changes are incremental. Like this doesn't seem like such a big deal. And then this isn't so far from that. And then you just kind of go down this rabbit hole and then on the other end you don't even recognize yourself. And I was paid for sex a couple times. I realized that wasn't for me. I didn't like that, the straight up transaction of it. And I was looking for a rich boyfriend and I thought that that's what you would find on the website. But I was sorely mistaken. These websites are not places where good Prince Charmings come to sweep you off your feet. There are places where predators hide in plain sight and use the marketing tactics of the website as an agency to recruit and convince and coerce young people into lives of sex work. And it's scary. It's actually terrifying.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay, so that was an amazing introduction.

[Guest]

Thank you.

[Brooke Urich]

There's no way, no anyone's gonna turn off this interview now. But of course I wanna go back and ask lots of questions with the website seeking arrangements. I had Rachel Yucatel on. We've since become friends. And her story that I recall when she was on was someone discovered her on the website and wrote like an article about it, and she made lemonade out of lemons. And they hired her to be almost like a spokesperson. And when she was doing that, you know, her in presenting, it was, yeah, this is a dating site for women who want a man of a certain level and is putting it out there on the table. Like, if you want to date, this is what I expect. And there was, like, a thing of, like, you know, this girl's wish list. So, you know that these are the Prada sunglasses that she would like if you'd like to. You know, a lot of men really get off and, you know, the way it's presented. These rich guys get off, and they love to buy gifts and, you know, a $500 pair of sunglasses, why not get the ones you want? You don't want them just going buying ones that don't fit your face. So, like, that type of thing, that relationship with her in that business ended. And I'm not getting into why it ended because I don't really remember the details, and I don't want to get into, like, a legal thing, but it ended. And I actually had the owner also on Juicy Scoop, promoting the website and what it was. And he also, at the time, had a very young girlfriend. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And do you think you'll get married? And how does her family feel about it? So with that all being said, yeah, I feel like I have kind of been following the world of Sugar Babies. I did a lot of episodes on it when it kind of exploded when you. There were billboards probably around 20, 17, 18, like, off of Sunset Boulevard and things like that. And I talked to people that called in and wrote me, and I remember calling a couple people myself, just hearing their stories. And it's interesting because we're going to get into that, too. But their stories were similar to what you and I discussed, which we'll share on the show, that they were not that a lot of them would meet these guys on a date, have sex with them, thinking, now it'll turn into a relationship in which I'll get my $10,000 a month and see them twice and go on a shopping spree. And they either never got paid at all for the initial time because it wasn't a boyfriend girlfriend yet. Right. It was like an audition, and then they'd never hear from them again. So essentially, the man got sex for free.

[Guest]

Yes. And when you think about that Prince Charming fantasy. Right. It's a bit of a fallacy because.

[Brooke Urich]

It'S a pretty woman Fantasy, right?

[Guest]

It's too good to be true for a reason. Because it's not true. Like I mean, just let's logically think about it for two seconds. Why would a super rich, generous man need a website to find someone to spoil? It just doesn't make any sense. Like when you, when you think about the conundrum we're in with dating right now, it's that the high value men have so many options and they can easily get sex without a website. So why would a high value man need some sort of agency to get girls? Like that is the first thing that just isn't true. And then the other part of it is the law of supply and demand dictates there are not enough rich men to go around. So if you simply think that every single girl who joins the site is going to find some rich man, like where are they? Like they don't exist, right? So the majority of the men use the website and they pick up where Seeking's marketing leaves off, right? And they say, oh yes, I'm this rich guy and I'm going to take you to Aruba, which is something I write about in my book. My first experience on the website, I was coerced and tricked into sex.

[Brooke Urich]

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[Sponsor]

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[Brooke Urich]

So why don't we hear about your first experience? Okay, well, let's go back a little bit on your life because it's a pretty juicy life to start. So in the book, you do share some of your teenage sexual experiences, which you know aren't unheard of, but definitely not didn't come out of committed love relationships. It seems like you were sort of seeking something as a teenager. And I want to ask you a little about that because you are bonafide across, all very attractive.

[Guest]

Oh, thank you.

[Brooke Urich]

But you are. I mean, did you not like when you, when you were like, did you not feel a pretty privilege? Like what? Or was it the pretty privilege of being pretty and getting attention that made you be a little bit promiscuous at a young age? Like, what is it? Cause I mean, it's like, it's a good point.

[Guest]

I certainly had a glow up, I don't think when I, I write about an experience I had when I was 14 when I was preyed upon through AOL instant messenger and the man lured me to a motel room to have sex with me. And I.

[Brooke Urich]

And he was much old. He was in his 20s, right?

[Guest]

Yeah, he was 26 and I was 14. And in my mind I thought like, this older guy likes me. I was like, wow, like he must think I'm really pretty. And I wasn't super confident back then. Like I don't think I was like super attractive as like a young kid. I mean, maybe I was, but I didn't feel that way necessarily. So to have a guy like, tell me I'm so sexy and beautiful, like we know now exactly what he was doing. He was coercing me and luring me with false promises.

[Brooke Urich]

You know what's really interesting is you may have never seen this movie because you're younger, but it's a Movie called Fast Times at Ridgemont High.

[Guest]

Oh, my gosh, I love Fast Times.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay, so do you remember this part? So the Jennifer Jason Lee is working at the pizza place. And Phoebe Cates. And this book was written by a guy who. These were his high school stories, experiences in a mall in, like, Riverside or something, I don't know where it was in the mid to late 70s. And so she's like, you gotta have, you know, you gotta divergent on yourself. This guy is hot. He works at the pizza place. That Guy was about 26, drove a car, you know. And I think he said he was 26. She lied and said she was 17 or something. He picked her up, took her to a baseball field where no one was, and then she lost it to him and she, like, never heard from him again. And so that was pretty. You know, that was pre Internet. All the Internet has done is made this behavior that always existed much easier.

[Guest]

And at a much greater scale. It's funny you mentioned that. I have not thought about that scene in so long. But, yes, I remember it perfectly.

[Brooke Urich]

It's literally your story. But without the Internet, it was just. You would have met him working at an ice cream store, you know.

[Guest]

Exactly. And he would have known just what to say to me. And I mean, that's what men on any dating site or in the world like. I mean, yes, they do this, but the problem with this particular website is that it preys on vulnerable populations and it sets them up to fail. And then the shame and secrecy of sex work and not wanting to share their experience because they're ashamed of what happened to them, because they're ashamed of getting conned, because they're scared that they were soliciting and they were asking for it, so they don't come forward. So I would guess there's thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions maybe of victims out there. Because, like, when you think about it, one predator can hit dozens, hundreds, thousands of girls. The site's been around for almost two decades. So the good ones, if there are any good ones, they get off the site.

[Brooke Urich]

So do you think because your first few times of having sex were young and they were not these long committed, I'm gonna marry you. Let's just have sex now that we're 15 or whatever kind of relations do you think then, you know, then your perspective, along with media and everything else was skewed as sex is casual, it's not really a big deal. It's not. So what, that I had sex with this person doesn't mean that he used Me doesn't mean that I'm a slut. Like, what was your perspective?

[Guest]

I was, I guess, kind of tricked into thinking that sex could be casual as a woman. And I don't believe that anymore. Like, I don't think women can have casual sex because of the hormones that we excrete. Like when we're having it, it's the bonding horm. Whereas men don't release that, they release testosterone. So it's really easy for them to sleep around and not think much of it. But for women, that's not true. And when I was young, I was kind of force fed birth control because at even the slightest hint of thinking about having sex, I was given a deprevara shot.

[Brooke Urich]

Your mom took you?

[Guest]

Yes, my mom took me to.

[Brooke Urich]

And did she have a talk with you? Was she like, I don't know if you're thinking having sex or not, but let's get you on the pill. Like, what was the discussion about sex before marriage or whatever in your home?

[Guest]

She thought that I was going to do what I was going to do anyway and wanted to embolden me to make my own decisions. And good on her because she was doing what she thought was right. And I think at the time that was kind of the thought is that, well, you know, their kids will be kids, they're going to do what they're going to do, so you might as well have them be safe. And I mean the real truth that I actually didn't mention in the book, but it's sort of an extension of that experience when I was 14. So after he had sex with me.

[Brooke Urich]

The AOL guy?

[Guest]

Yes, the guy from aol, he told me to go get the morning after pill. And so I did.

[Brooke Urich]

And because you didn't use any protection at that point.

[Guest]

And so I did. And I didn't really like I detail kind of my mindset at that time how I didn't really know what was going on. I was like, I knew like a little bit, but I didn't know what the morning after pill was like. I really didn't know. And so I went to Planned Parenthood, I think the next day, got the morning after pill and they gave me birth control. So a spiral of birth control. And I had it in my drawer and my mom found it and she was like, what is this? Like I told you that if you ever wanted to have sex, come to me and we'll go get birth control together. And so I was like, oh, like, you know, I don't know. I just made up Some lie or whatever. And at the time, I hadn't had sex very many times. I probably had sex, like, three or four times. And I started taking the birth control pill and just thought that that's what you do if you want to have sex. And it wasn't until I was probably, like, 28 that I realized that birth control made me unstable and made me, like, seek out sex. Like, made me, like, very horny and, like, willing to have sex with basically whoever because your hormones are all out of whack. And I'm not saying this is true for everyone. I'm just talking about what happened to me.

[Brooke Urich]

Right.

[Guest]

But it took me a long time to understand that, because I didn't have a chance get off of it. Because it's kind of shoved down your throat at the doctor, they're like, oh, well, you're having sex. You got to get on birth control. And I just don't think that's right to do. I mean, in general, I don't think it's right to shove pills down people's throats when you could treat the symptom. But to go back to kind of what you were saying about my mindset at the time, I was very struck with the, like, slutty characters on tv. Like One Tree Hill. There's that girl named Brooke.

[Brooke Urich]

I never watched One Tree Hill. So tell me about Brooke.

[Guest]

I. The other Brooke.

[Brooke Urich]

My character's name was Brooke.

[Guest]

So of course I was like, oh, like, her name's Brooke, too.

[Brooke Urich]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And she's, like, a white girl with brown hair. I was like, oh, cool. And it's Sophia something. She's, like, a fantastic actress. I love her. But she is, like, this kind of, like, floozy kind of character who's always getting lots of attention from men. And she, like, kind of experiments with drugs. She's kind of, like the bad girl, but she gets all of this attention and has, like, storylines that revolve around her. And back then, when I was watching it, I was like, oh, like, this is. This is a character I love.

[Brooke Urich]

This is when you're, like, 14, 15.

[Guest]

Yeah. I was so young. And then I actually rewatched the show recently, and I was just like, oh, my God, I can't believe they were showing this to people that like.

[Brooke Urich]

And I'm curious, and I don't know what I realized in just a few years is how many of these things that did influence my mindset about romance, life. All that are all male writers. They're all male. Like, you know, even joking about bad. What I call dry bar 2000 romantic comedies, meaning they play them at the dry bar are like, almost all of them are written by guys, you know, the 27 dresses, all these kind of things. And it's like, what do you know, you know, a bunch of baseball cap wearing writers in a room drinking coffee wrote this movie about women and love and, and if they're, you know, working, if they are successful and they can't find a man and they're tripping and they're falling over themselves and once you know that whole cliche. But I wanna go back to one thing, which is crazy. So I remember watching some talk show before I was even probably a teenager. And it was this woman who said, I give my daughter the birth control in a little cup with other vitamins and she doesn't know she's on it.

[Guest]

Oh my God.

[Brooke Urich]

And so this way if she does have sex, because the chances are she, no matter how much you beg your daughter to be open with you, she might not. And she's protected. And so she would take the little pop it out of the spiral, put it in with whatever vitamin C and da da da. And I remember thinking, oh that's really genius. I remember thinking that's kind of a genius move of a moment so that their daughter doesn't get knocked up. Cause also when I was growing up there were like these things called after school specials and stuff. And teen pregnancy was like if you get pregnant, you are thrown out on the street and your parents hate you and you are living in an apartment and then your boyfriend and you will eventually hate each other. And like it all, it just was the worst stories and parents would tell their kids, if you get pregnant, you're on your own. Then it's like, then we saw Teen mom where the 50 year old mom totally embraced the grandchild of the 16 year old. And they were really fucked up too. But it was a different thing where it's not. People weren't throwing away their daughter and grandchildren the way even if that was to happen to me, I don't know that my parents would do that. But that was the fear. So it was a really. You really, really didn't want to get pregnant when I was growing up. And if you did, you know you're gonna do something about it or give the baby up or just be completely have your life ruined. And so I kind of thought, oh, that's sort of genius. But your reaction is mostly when I've told people that they're like, that's just horrible. I'm Like, I don't know. Like, is it, like, I kind of wonder if nowadays, with the rise of, like, Ozempic and stuff, would somebody go and go into their daughter's room and poke her in the middle of the night and have her not know that she's on Ozempic if she's struggling with weight? Like, I don't know that parents wouldn't do something like that. Like, I get it's a weird, weird thing. Something I would never do.

[Guest]

Yeah, right.

[Brooke Urich]

But, like, the same way of your mom being honest, I think there's. I wonder how many other parents maybe weren't honest about that because the fear was so strong of, like, yeah, it's weird. So then you. So then what happened after high school? Did you go to college or did you. Where was your romance, romantic life at that point?

[Guest]

After high school, I went to unlv, to college, and I ended up meeting a guy who made my fake id, and we got into a relationship, and I found out about a year into dating him that he had another girlfriend and was cheating on me the whole time. So at, like, 19, 20, that really, like, warped my view of relationships, and it kind of made me lean into the sugar life because I thought that if a guy who said he loved me so much could do that to me, then, like, maybe I wasn't ready for love. And maybe I just needed to, like, find myself. And then because of, like, birth control and the idea that, like, you know, you can just have fun and have casual sex, that's what I thought I would do. And it's not till, you know, looking back that you realize like, how those things really messed you up. And it did mess me up.

[Brooke Urich]

You talked about One Tree Hill, but I feel like when Sex and the City started, we talked a little bit about this. When Sex and the City started, I was recently married, but these girls were basically just about my age, a couple years older than my age, the characters. And then, of course, Kim Cattrall was supposed to be, like, 40, and the other girls were supposed to be, like, 32, 33 when the show started. And of course, I love the show because it's so entertaining, but I remember watching it. You know, I'm from la, I have friends, and I was like, you know, that we're single and stuff. And I remember the amount of casual sex that they were all having. I was like, this doesn't. This is not my friends. Like, who are the. Does this exist in New York but not in la? Like, who is having this much sex? And you Know, Miranda has sex with some guy after working out at the gym. I'm like, who the fuck has sex after the gym? You know who does? Gay men. You know who's writing the show? Gay men.

[Guest]

Yeah, Right.

[Brooke Urich]

You know, so it was like, there were some of that where I think glamorized, like, what a fun time to be single and dating and da, da, da, da. And I kind of wonder if there was all the young girls that were maybe watching that at, like, 14. I was watching it at 30, but watching at 14, who now are in their mid-30s. Like, did it affect their view of dating and romance and taking more control? Which could be seen as, you know, not falling for these creepy guys. But also it could mean, in your case, like, no, I'm going to get something out of this if I'm going to have sex with someone. Like, I'm not going to clean the guy's house, be a loving thing, and then still have him cheat on me. Like, fuck that. If every guy is an asshole, I might as well get a purse. And is that sort of the tude that you had?

[Guest]

Yeah, that is exactly the tude. And I started on Tinder. I was like, on Tinder when it was in beta, I, like, found it in the game section of the App Store. And I was like, what's this game? I thought it was, like, hot or not. And then I got on it. I was like, oh, it's like an app where you can date people. So I started meeting guys on Tinder and would have casual sex with them, and then they would ghost me. I wouldn't get anything. So I was like, well, I'm already online dating. I'm already kind of living this lifestyle in Vegas. It really didn't seem so far off to believe that. And actually, the reason that I ended up joining the site initially was because my friend told me about it, and she told me they were doing a reality show casting. So me at 21, I was like, oh, shoot. Like a reality show. Like, yes. So I signed up for the website, emailed castingseekingarrangement.com.

[Brooke Urich]

So this isn't Tinder now. This is Seeking Arrangement.

[Guest]

Oh, sorry. Yes. That's how I got on Seeking Arrangement. Oh, okay.

[Brooke Urich]

So first you just did Tinder for.

[Guest]

A while, and I found that myself. I found it, like, in the App.

[Brooke Urich]

Store and then between Tinder, actually reaching out to the seeking arrangements. Did you have any kind of Sugar Baby Light or whatever experience that you cultivated on your own?

[Guest]

I was going to the club, like, on the weekends. I would have guys pay for my dinner, like, nice dinners, and obviously the bottle service and whatever. So that was happening. And then I saw my friends getting things from. Paid for by guys. But I didn't have any of those experiences. I actually was scammed by a sugar daddy type guy.

[Brooke Urich]

Let's hear that story.

[Guest]

So he took me and my friend on this weekend to where to? Well, we were in Las Vegas to Newport. Okay. So we just, like, went for the weekend to Newport. Just, like, for a couple nights.

[Brooke Urich]

And did he, like, pay for your flight?

[Guest]

Yes.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay.

[Guest]

Paid for everything. He was coming off a big win in Vegas. So first we had.

[Brooke Urich]

How old was this guy? Was he cute? What's the deal?

[Guest]

I mean, he wasn't, like, that bad, but he definitely, like, wasn't cute. He's probably, like, 38, 39 or something like that.

[Brooke Urich]

And you guys are in your early 20s.

[Guest]

I was 21.

[Brooke Urich]

And why could you take a friend? Did you think that you were gonna have to perform a threesome, or did you just think you could take a friend and figure it out?

[Guest]

She actually took me.

[Brooke Urich]

Oh, okay.

[Guest]

So we had gone out to dinner with them one night. I guess she knew one of his friends or whatever. We went to STK one night.

[Brooke Urich]

Nice.

[Guest]

And they spent, like, $1,000 probably on dinner. And then they gave us money to go to the blackjack table. And so I ended up going home after that, but she stayed with him. And the next day, she calls me and she's like, hey, get down here. We're at Nordstrom. We're shopping. He's asking about you. And I was like, okay, cool. So I go down to Nordstrom. He bought us, like, some swimsuits and stuff. And he's like, do you want to go to Newport for the weekend? And I was like, sure.

[Brooke Urich]

So we went to ask questions. When you're trying. When you're. So you get there. Because I always wanted this, too. When you're in a situation with either sugar baby or just a new boyfriend who's generous, and he's like, let's go shopping. This is where I think it would be hard for me. How. Where do you go from just picking up, like, you know, a $200 outfit to going, oh, can I see the Chanel quilted bag for 11 grand? Like, how do you waiver that? And did he say, I'm just buying you bikinis and I want to see you come out and model them? Like, what was the story there?

[Guest]

So it's funny. I actually write about that push and pull in My head of, like, what do I get? Like, do I get too much? I don't want to squander the opportunity. But I also want to walk away with something, right? So, no, I didn't have to model the bikinis or anything like that. He wasn't even with us when we were shopping, okay? We were, like, doing our own thing. And then he came back, I guess, from wherever he was shopping for shoes or something like that and just went to the till and he just paid for everything. So it wasn't. I didn't feel like I had to do anything with him. I mean, he was, like, coming off a big win, okay? So I think it was just, like, pennies to him. He just, like, wasn't really. And they love to. That's the thing is, like, guys love to flaunt it when they got it, right? Because they want you to know they got it. Like that.

[Brooke Urich]

Got it.

[Guest]

And that's the only reason. So then he was like, oh, do you wanna go to Newport? And I was like, all right, sure. Like, this might be a sugar daddy situation. Like, what are we gonna do? So we ended up going to Newport. It was kind of weird. I didn't do anything with him. I don't think she did anything with him. Like, sexual or whatever.

[Brooke Urich]

What was the room situation?

[Guest]

It was a double queen, like, kind of near the water. And she slept in the bed with him.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay.

[Guest]

And when I woke up, his arm was around her and he was, like, snoring. But I don't think they did anything. Okay. I think he was. We were both all. We were all really drunk.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay.

[Guest]

So I think we just kind of, like, stumbled home or whatever. And then the next day we left. And at the time, he had told me that he was a bookie so he needed people to place bets for him in Las Vegas. And I was like, oh, shoot. I was like, I'm 21. Like, I could do that. Obviously, I didn't really think it was illegal at the time, which now I obviously know it is. But I was like, okay, sure. Yeah, I'll do that for you. So the next week, he calls me up and. Well, there was another situation where he had come out, I think, like, promptly after the Newport trip he came back out to Vegas and stayed at the Cosmopolitan. And we ended up getting him kicked out of his suite.

[Brooke Urich]

Why? How?

[Guest]

Because. And this isn't the case anymore, I think because of us, they probably changed this. But there's this suite on the 14th floor. It's like a wraparound suite. And the Railing of the balcony is kind of flush with the rooftop of Marquee Day club or nightclub or whatever. And one of the guys that was staying there was like, hey look, we can go on the roof. Like do you guys want to go on the roof? And the guy who's the scammer guy was like, no, no, don't go out there, we're gonna get in trouble. And so then like after a few shots, we like went out on the roof of Marquee and like, we're like, we like took a picture out there and then when we came back there was like a knock at the door and it was security and they were like, you gotta go like kicking ass out. Cause we had obviously like gone. We're not supposed to go on the frickin roof.

[Brooke Urich]

And they kicked him out.

[Guest]

Like kicked him out of his suite. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was like a comp. Because like that's when you spend a lot of money at the casinos. You get like a free room or whatever. So yeah, basically they were like, you're out of here. And so he was obviously very perturbed about that. So after that happened, I think it was like a few days later I felt bad about that happening, kind of guilty. And he called me up and he's like, hey, I've got this bet for you to place. You gotta make it fast though, because the game is about to start and like, you gotta go down there and do it. And I was like, I don't have any money for that. He's like, no, I'll pay you back, I'll pay you back. Just like do whatever you can to like get the ticket. Like, I promise I'll pay you back.

[Brooke Urich]

So what did you have to spend?

[Guest]

It was $500. And it was literally I had like $512 in my checking account.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay.

[Guest]

And I was like, all right, like he's going to pay me back. Like big risk, big reward. I was like, well, if it WINS, I win 6,000 and then maybe I'll have to split it with him or something like that. But I was like, shoot, like I could come up. And the ticket was not a winner. He ghosted me and I was out $500. And so I was destitute, right, in need of money. And I was still trying to like recoup my funds. And I paid for my own college, was like working at the time. I was actually working for an adult novelty wholesaler, which I talk about in the book, which kind of like got me into the Sex industry without really being in the sex industry. Because I was selling like these novelties. I was working at like a warehouse basically for a manufacturer.

[Brooke Urich]

You're selling like what, like dildos and stuff?

[Guest]

It was a male chastity device. Yeah. What is that exactly? It's like a fetish, like a tease play device.

[Brooke Urich]

And for straight men or gay men?

[Guest]

For both. I mean, for I guess, people with a penis. And it's like a. It's a medical grade polycarbonate device that goes over the shaft and there's a ring that goes behind the testicles.

[Brooke Urich]

Oh.

[Guest]

And it like you might have seen them like in novelty shops and stuff. And it traps the balls between the ring and the cage.

[Sponsor]

Oh, God.

[Guest]

And there's a lock on the top. It's.

[Brooke Urich]

Listen, all that effort, I'm like, I'd rather just like get it one and done and go to bed. Like, this is a lot. Anyway. Go on.

[Guest]

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to kink shame, but I worked there for three years.

[Brooke Urich]

I don't want to either. It's just not my thing. It's a lot of effort.

[Guest]

Who are very interested in that have weird proclivities and whatever. Anyway, so I ended up working there because my mom is a graphic designer and she actually like designs packaging for novelties. Like it's kind of her niche that she developed after this job. Anyway, it was all very weird, but it was like a family run company. It really wasn't weird when I was there. It was only weird when I was answering the phones and talking to like people with their wiener in their hand or whatever. Anyway, so I was working there at the time. I write about it a little bit. Didn't have a lot of money and was broke after that guy scammed me. And then my friend told me about this little website where you can get guys to give you money. And I was like, oh, really? I was like, well, that's not so far off from what I'm already experiencing. Right. These guys are signing away $5,000 at the club for a couple bottles. Like what's so far fetched about me thinking that they would just give me some of that money or sometimes the guys would give us money to play at the tables. So it wasn't that far off.

[Brooke Urich]

Got it.

[Guest]

And then the reality show idea that cinched the deal for me. I was like, oh, shoot.

[Brooke Urich]

Like now explain that.

[Guest]

So they send out email or this is back in 2013. Okay. So they would send out emails to the girls on the site. The. The sugar Baby accounts that said, hey, we're doing a reality show casting. Let me know if you want to be on the reality show. So of course I'm like, yes, like, I want to be on the reality show. You know, like, I don't want to get a job. I want to go be a reality star. So I know, right? And so I emailed them and I was like, hey, I really want to do this. And like 20 minutes later, the guy calls me, he's like, hey, you're perfect for this opportunity. Like, all you need to do is like, come down to the Palms and like this and that. And I write about exactly what happened. But basically it was a one off show. And like, I told him, I was like, I don't have any experience on the site. Like, I've. I literally just signed up. I've never had a sugar daddy. Like, I don't know. He's like, oh, that's fine. Don't worry about. And I'm like, okay. So I go down there and it was a complete farce. Like, I was so terrible.

[Brooke Urich]

This is like, what year?

[Guest]

Around 2013. Okay, so the PR manager actually cast a sugar daddy as well to be in the piece. But the sugar daddy didn't show up. So the PR manager assumed the role of sugar daddy himself and went on the on camera for this interview. It was like, what I remember is it being for the Travel Channel and it was about the most wildest parts of Vegas or something. I don't know. It's kind of like gossipy news. Back then it was really popular. And I know the interview was so terrible because I was so nervous and like, this guy, like, I didn't even know him and he's like, supposed to be my sugar daddy. Like, it was so weird. Okay, but before they would even cast me, it was a paid opportunity, right? So they paid me $250 to appear, but they had me sign a contract that said I wouldn't tell production that I was paid. Because in most cases, like, journalistic integrity dictates that you can't have paid case studies. Like, it's different if it's an actor or an actress, but if it's a case study that is, say, is saying what they do or talking about their lives, then that person isn't supposed to be paid because, like, there's an, like, an unspoken agreement that like, you're doing this because you want to share your story, not because you're being paid to share your story.

[Brooke Urich]

Got it.

[Guest]

So most journalists won't even work with you if you're being paid. But I had to sign a contract that said I wasn't being paid. But I of course was. And I also had to sign the contract, said that I wouldn't say I've been paid for sex. Which at the time, I was like, what? I was like, I wouldn't do that. You know? But then when I actually got on the site, I realized that that's what was happening is people are trying to pay for sex, but they tout it as, oh, no, no, it's not that. It's just rich guys. It's just this. And so your mindset kind of is like, oh, but they're saying it's not that. So I believe what they're saying. And it's on tv. It's in the New York Post. So if it was illegal, if it was really sex work, if it was really prostitution, then why would it be on tv? Why would it be. Why wouldn't it be shut down if it was really illegal? And so that's kind of the mindset that kind of tricks you into thinking that it's not sex work, which is what it is. So when you get on the site, there's a flood of messages in my inbox. 500, no condom. Like, that's the norm of what.

[Brooke Urich]

That's what they're offering you?

[Guest]

Yes, that's the messages that I would get from sugar daddies.

[Brooke Urich]

Not like, do you like to go sailing?

[Guest]

Absolutely not. No, it's. I'm not saying that there isn't, like, maybe a small piece of the pie. That's guys who really just want to spoil you and really just. But in that case, like, why would they need a website to do that? Like, why wouldn't they just, like, be a normal guy and just, like, be nice and, like, go out and meet girls? Like, you don't need a website where there's an explicit exchange of money for something in order to get those girls. Like, it just. It doesn't make any sense. And that's really not what happens on the website.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay?

[Guest]

The problem with the website is that there's two parts parties who. Neither one of them think it's sex work. The girls on the site are willing to be paid for sex, of course, but they're not sex workers. And the men on the site are.

[Brooke Urich]

They want. They're giving you the girlfriend experience.

[Guest]

That's what it's called. Yeah, yeah. Is like an escorting term, is the girlfriend experience, which is where the girl, like, actually pretends that she likes you and, like, goes out on dates and stuff. And I mean it's sometimes that, but.

[Brooke Urich]

I would say it's trips and shopping.

[Guest]

Yeah. And I mean maybe it is sometimes that. But most of the time in my experience it's men who are lying about what they're going to offer you, trying to get sex for free or just straight up paying for sex. But neither party in it see it as sex work. So it leaves both parties to be very vulnerable and be able to get scammed in one way or another because no one's being honest about what's going on. And the marketing and the fact that the web's still exists and is still around despite like actually legal changes that.

[Brooke Urich]

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[Guest]

So the first guy I met on the site was named John. Fitting, of course. So John said he was in the movie business. And I think we just texted beforehand.

[Brooke Urich]

Did you see a photo of him first?

[Guest]

He sent me a photo, but his face wasn't in the photo.

[Brooke Urich]

What's the photo of that?

[Guest]

I mean, his body, I guess. And like, I don't even know if it was of him after meeting him. But that's what most people on the website did back then is like they didn't have real pictures of themselves.

[Brooke Urich]

And how old did he say he was?

[Guest]

He said he was like 45 or something like that. And I was 21. And so I went to the Hard Rock Hotel, which is now the Virgin, and to the Circle bar and met up with him and got very drunk, of course. I was so nervous and the he's just know, pouring me more and more wine. And so I went back to his room with him.

[Brooke Urich]

He was chatting for like a couple hours at the bar.

[Guest]

Yeah, maybe like an hour. And he kept complaining that it was too loud that he couldn't hear me. And so he wanted to go up to the room so we could talk better.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay.

[Guest]

And I was like, okay. And then he like, poured me a drink and.

[Brooke Urich]

In the room.

[Guest]

In the room. Yeah. And like, I mean, I don't know for sure if, like, I was drugged, but what I remember after that is being like, very disoriented. And like, maybe I was just super drunk, but I mean, he did like, pour me a drink or whatever, like with his back turned to me in the room. So I don't really know what happened, but he starts telling me all these sweet nothings. He's like, you know, I have this trip to Aruba planned, and I want you to come with me and be my sugar baby and all of this. And, like, being so sweet, telling me how beautiful and wonderful I was. And I had literally never had any experiences on the website. So me, I was like, oh, shoot. Like, this is exactly what the website promised is this guy that wants to take me on a trip. Like, oh, lucky me, I just found it right away. And then, of course, he sleeps with me and then tells me to leave.

[Brooke Urich]

And how was that?

[Guest]

Two seconds. Two seconds? Yeah. I don't even remember. I really don't.

[Brooke Urich]

And then he asks you to leave?

[Guest]

Yes. So then he asked me to leave. And I remember I could barely walk, walk. And there's, like, those chairs right by the elevators. And I remember sitting in the chair by the elevator for a little while and, like, just kind of trying to catch my balance. And, like, this lady, like, wakes me up and she's like, are you okay? And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. And so then I, like, I guess went down to my car and drove home. I woke up the next morning in my bed, not really sure how I got there. And then I, like, tried to call him and text him. He, like, never talked to me again. So that is the typical experience on the website.

[Brooke Urich]

So no money exchanged?

[Guest]

Absolutely not.

[Brooke Urich]

No trip to Aruba?

[Guest]

No trip to Aruba. Okay, Ghosted me.

[Brooke Urich]

So then after that experience, did you try it one more time or what happened?

[Guest]

Yeah, so I got back on the site. I was like, oh, God, I'm such an idiot for falling for it, you know? And so the next time I got on the site, it was actually another guy named John, John number two. And he was very curmudgeonly. Like, he was a little bit older, probably like 55 or something like that. And he was just kind of crass and rude a little bit. I was like, oh, it's obvious why he needs to pay for girls because he's not a prize. And he ends up winning at the craps table. Yeah, I'd never played craps before in my life, but of course got very drunk. And I think that's a common thread in all of these stories is, like, someone gets very drunk, and that's because you're nervous. Right? So. And I was 21. I, like, didn't really know how to hold my alcohol. And we. He ends up winning probably, like, 10 grand or something like that. That. And we went back up to his room, but I was so drunk, I Just passed out. And I remember waking up just on top of the bed with my shoes still on. Like, nothing happened. Like, with him or whatever. Clothes are on, shoes are on. Like, nothing.

[Brooke Urich]

Like, where is he asleep, too?

[Guest]

So he was actually. I woke up to him pushing the room service cart in, like, okay, just gotten some. It was at the wind, so it's like, a rather large room. And. And he's like, oh, I got you some room service, and I left you something in your purse. I was like, oh, okay. So I get up, and I, like, go look in my purse, and there's, like, a wad of cash in my purse.

[Brooke Urich]

How much was it?

[Guest]

It was $1,500.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay.

[Guest]

And so I, like, kind of thumbed through it. I was like, oh, shoot. I was like, that's more money I'd ever seen in my life in cash. And I was like, oh, that's mine. I was like, oh, dang. So then I go on the couch, and he's, like, kind of, like, fondling me.

[Brooke Urich]

Did you eat pancake? Holding it up like, Pretty Woman. Remember when she did that? I always thought that was such a weird scene, that she didn't use a knife and fork, as if she's so, like, eating a pancake like a muffin. Yeah.

[Guest]

I was so nauseous from, like. I mean, I have actually found now that I think I'm allergic to alcohol. Like, I cannot have large quantities of alcohol. I just. I thought that, like, when you take a shot, you just have to throw up. Like, that's how everyone feels.

[Brooke Urich]

If I was you at this point, I would be like, all right, I got ate. $1,500. I didn't have to do anything with this crotchety. Do I got a good breakfast? Yeah, I have. I'm a little hungover, but that's on me. I'd be like, I'd probably be game to go do this again now, even though I had the shitty first experience. Well, that's that what you were thinking?

[Guest]

Yes, but that's not where the experience ended.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay, keep going.

[Guest]

So he starts, like, loving on me and stuff. And, like, I, like, just take the money and leave. No. Yeah. Like, I, like, hadn't showered, and, like, I feel like I smelled really bad. And so I was like, oh, no. Like, I don't. Like, No, I don't think so. And so I told him I was on my period. And so that, like, turned him off.

[Sponsor]

Right.

[Guest]

But then he's like, do you want to take a shower? And I was like, with him? Yes. And so at the time, I was like, well, I mean, if he's going to be filling my purse with money all the time, and, like, all I have to do is go take a shower with him. Like, all right, might as well. I was like, okay. Not really sure how I was going to navigate that particular situation. Get in the shower. Basically gave him, like, a quick oral sex experience. Cleanup was easy, and then off he goes. And he was like, oh, you can order room service or whatever you want. But I was, like, so sick. I, like, vomited. And then I just left. And I was like, okay. Like, one experience was really bad. And then one experience, I guess, wasn't, like, great. Like, I didn't love this guy. Like, I didn't want to hit him up again. But I ended up leaving my watch in the room.

[Brooke Urich]

Was it expensive?

[Guest]

I mean, I don't really remember. I think it was, like, I think I had gotten for Christmas or something. So it wasn't, like, not a nice watch. And I called him, tried to maybe get the watch back, and he didn't answer me. He ghosted me. He never talked to me again. So, like, okay, whatever. So it's kind of not.

[Brooke Urich]

It's crazy that you're doing this and you're still getting horrible ghosting rejection that a normal person would be getting on. On dating. Like, it's even worse, you know? Okay, so then what happened?

[Guest]

Well, I mean, just to say that, like, a lot of times it's not so cut and dry. It's more nuanced than maybe you. It's not like I said, hey, you're going to pay me $1,500, and I'm going to give you a BJ in the shower. Like, no one said anything like that. No one said anything at all. It was just, like, kind of implied that, like, oh, he gave me the money. And, like, if you want more money, then, you know, you have to do this. So I think that's a lot of times what it is. And I think people think it's, like, more cut and dry.

[Brooke Urich]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Like, this is how much it costs. And I'm not to say that that doesn't happen. Like, a lot of people are specific about, like, their pricing and stuff, but I was never like that because. Because I wasn't a sex worker. I didn't know what I was doing. And most of the women on the site don't know what they're doing. They're super young. They don't consider themselves sex workers. So it leaves them very vulnerable in these situations.

[Brooke Urich]

So then after this guy, you don't hear from him again. So now there's been two experiences. Then what happens?

[Guest]

Then I ended up meeting a guy who was, like, a little bit younger, and he was very cute and said he was different than the other guys on the site. He's called the trust fund guy in my book. And I did end up meeting up with him a few times, but the first time I met up with him, he bought me a bikini. Apparently, these guys always buy you a bikini. And we went to Wet Republic, and then he kind of ditched me to, like, go hang out with, like, his other friends, basically.

[Brooke Urich]

While you're at the Wet Republic?

[Guest]

Yeah. So we were all Wet Republic, and he's like, okay, we're gonna go to dinner now. I was like, okay, cool. So we all go back to the wind.

[Brooke Urich]

And he's how old?

[Guest]

He's 29. He's.

[Brooke Urich]

Oh, okay, brilliant.

[Guest]

So I was 21, he was 29. So I was like, oh. And he was really nice. And then when we get back to the win, he's like, okay, bye. I'll see you later. We're gonna go to dinner now. And, like, I thought I was going to dinner with them, but, like, he was, like, ditching me at the win. Okay. And, like, telling me to, like, go off and with my new bikini or whatever, and I was like, okay, fine. So then I end up meeting up with him again, like, a few months later, and he tries to sodomize me without my consent, and we get into an argument and I left. And then that was that situation. And I write about all these in the book. And then the last time I met up with him was actually at his place in New York when I realized how rich he was.

[Brooke Urich]

So he was very rich.

[Guest]

He was very rich. Trust fund guy. Like, his family name is on many buildings in New York. And so he's like a legacy, you know? And I didn't know that at the time. I didn't know who the heck he was, but I was able to learn. And. And he basically wants sex to be easy. So he's got money. He pays for it. There's a lot of different kind of categories that these guys fall into. It's a very small percentage are like, these super rich guys who just really want it to be easy and just pay for it. That's like maybe 10% or maybe like 5%.

[Brooke Urich]

I feel like the image is a guy in his mid-40s to, like, 55. This is the way I feel like it's portrayed. And he May or may not have a wife, but he'd like a hot girlfriend to be discreet, not expect to get married, not have his baby. But when he has a business trip, when he has something, then you could go with him and you know, be there for the sex. Shut up. When he wants to watch the game and he's not going to care about your feelings. You can't say you were mean to me. Like, like. And that's where it's like transactional.

[Guest]

Yes, exactly. And the sex workers, and just to clarify, like sugar babies are sex workers, like straight up. Like I don't think there's a difference. I think there is a girlfriend experience kind of situation. But if you are being paid a lot of money and you are being elevated to that level, you are having sex and that is what you're being paid for. You're being paid to keep quiet, to be complacent and sometimes be complicit when you're reeling in other girls for sexual.

[Brooke Urich]

Like a threesome or whatever or orgies or whatever.

[Guest]

Like a lot of these people are kind of like sexual deviants and so they're interested in like having orgies and like doing crazy stuff. And I'm not saying everyone is like that. But yes, the situation that you're talking about, it's certainly does happen. I would say maybe like 5, 10% of the people on the site are really just like kind of well meaning, just want it to be easy, want someone to go on a trip with them or whatever. Of those type of people, I would say 90% of them are married. And the majority of the people, not just those type of good people on the site. Right. The majority of the people are married. Like that's a common through line is that these are married men who want to easily get sex on the side and they don't want a professional because they don't want the idea in their head that they're paying someone for sex because that just hurts their ego. So they want to find someone who's young, a young college girl who doesn't have the perceived, you know, stank of like a weathered sex worker. And so that's who they find. And I mean, I'm not saying that there are all bad experiences on the site. Like a broken clock is right twice a day, right. So there are like a fraction, like maybe like 5% of people who do really find that and have really good experiences, but the majority of experiences are not that at all. And when I first started on the website in 2013, it was a Very different place because I know people are.

[Brooke Urich]

Going to be mad at me if we don't finish the trust fund.

[Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Brooke Urich]

So I just want to finish that story before we forget.

[Guest]

Okay.

[Brooke Urich]

So you go to New York. You really do see how rich he is. You are having sex with him, and then that. And then that unfortunate night happens where he wanted to do something you didn't or how did it end with him?

[Guest]

So I saw him three times. The first time was the Wet Republic Experience. The next time, he came back to Vegas, tried to sodomize me. And then the next time I was actually in New York already. I was there for my job and I had changed my seeking arrangement location to New York to, like, see what kind of guys I would meet. And he ends up hitting me up again. And I go over to his place and it was very late at night, and I think he had just taken a Xanax or something and, like, nothing happened. Like, he basically got me a car. When I got there, I was there for an hour. We smoked some weed. And then, like, he got me a car and sent me home. Okay. And like, I thought we were gonna have sex because I was like, he's hot, he's rich. You know, whatever. But that ended up not happening. And then, like, I never talked to him again. Or maybe I did talk to him here and there, but I was like, no. Like, I don't think so. So, I mean, if you want, like, the details, you can read. No, read the book. Okay.

[Brooke Urich]

So I was just wondering what happened with that.

[Guest]

Yeah, no, nothing really.

[Brooke Urich]

So then after you. So you had a few experiences and then what happened?

[Guest]

So I ended up meeting a guy on the site who lived in Miami and was kind of like, no prize or anything, but he was really spoiling me. He was like. He came out to Vegas, he bought me stuff from Saks, and he flew me out to Miami a couple times.

[Brooke Urich]

I've had this guy on and he calls himself the. I don't like the name, but he called himself the Horror Whisperer. That's why I put him on TikTok. And he was saying, I encourage my friends who are dating rich guys to only buy from. Only get things from. Oh, gosh. What were the two stores? Neem, I think Neiman's and one other store. You can return the thing for cash. There's all their stores. You can. And choosing items for the sugar daddy to buy. You, like, really stick with, like, Chanel and like, Rolex and like, Herme because they actually go up in value. Where A lot of, like, the Y. Saint Laurent and stuff like that don't. Aren't worth that much as a. When you with the spoiling guy, were you thinking about that, or were you just getting what looked cute?

[Guest]

I was getting what he wanted me to get.

[Brooke Urich]

Oh, okay. So tell me about that.

[Guest]

And, I mean, I think that kind of is the situation a lot of times is. Is the man decides what you get. Oh, you get what you get and like it. So he dresses you. He bought what he bought for me.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay, so you go to the store. Like, I kind of want to hear the shopping experience.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay, well, so here, let me hear that.

[Guest]

So first, before I even met him, I was at work that day, and he went shopping for me that day.

[Brooke Urich]

This is where you're still working at the novelty adult place. Okay.

[Guest]

Yes, this was the. And he hated that. He was like, oh, no, I don't want you in the sex industry. So I was like, well, if I'm going to get out of it, then you're going to have to pay. And so before I'd even met this man in person, he was shopping for me at Saks, and he bought me a dress and some shoes, some Jimmy Choos a size too small. So I go up to his room to, like, the shoes were too small. The shoes were too small.

[Brooke Urich]

You can't wear those.

[Guest]

When I get up to the room, I realize they're a size too small and try to shove my wide foot in them. And that doesn't work. So he's like, oh, don't worry. We'll go back to Saks tomorrow and we'll exchange them. And I was like, okay, great. We're going to go shopping. Shopping. So we go back to socks the next day, and he picks out a Saint Laurent pump. And I picked out, like, a different. Like a. The tribute sandal. And he's like, those are hooker shoes. And I was like, okay. So then he picks out another one, equally hookerish, if you ask me. And he's like, no, I like these ones. You're gonna get these ones. And I was like, okay. So, like, my. I have, like, really wide feet. Like, my toes are kind of all the same size. Like, not sh. For European shoes at all. And so I, like, shove my foot in there like Cinderella's ugly stepsister and then trot down the aisle for him. I'm like, do you like them? And he's like, yeah, they're great. And so I was like, okay, I guess this is what I get.

[Brooke Urich]

And do you think when you were doing this. Did you think anyone was looking, observing, knowing what the situation was?

[Guest]

I mean, the salespeople were watching me, like, with this guy with a potbelly, balding, like, not cute, like, playing on his phone. And me, like, this little girl, like, I mean, the optics were very clear what was going on. Okay. Okay, cool. And so I call him the Milk Dud in my book. Cause his head looked like a giant Milk Dud and so sexy. Yeah. So I kind of, like, write about, like, how my mindset was in that situation where I was thinking that I was gonna receive these spoils. So I was complacent with his bad actions. And even when I got the shoes, I was like, do I even want these shoes? Or do I just, like, want my to know I have them? Do I even care? But then, obviously, I had the shoes. And then when I went out with my friends and the shoes, I was like, oh, cute shoes. I'm like, oh, thank you. They really hurt. So it's weird, like, you think that.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay, so then what else did you get? Did you get anything else or just the shoes?

[Guest]

It was just. Yeah, it was just the shoes. We just returned the Jimmy Choos and got the Saint Laurent pumps. And then when he flew me out to Miami the next time, he didn't really get me anything, so.

[Brooke Urich]

Did you sleep with him that first time?

[Guest]

Yes, I slept with him the first time. It was gross. And I kind of assumed that was the case because he bought me this dress, and so I'm like, in the dress.

[Brooke Urich]

And how much was the dress?

[Guest]

I think it was, like 500 or something like that. He had already bought it from me. He'd already picked it out for me.

[Brooke Urich]

And did that look good on you?

[Guest]

I mean, I had a few extra pounds on me, so I was kind of, like, stuffed into it. But, I mean, I thought it was really cute. I think I still have it somewhere. But, I mean, it was a really cute dress, and I wore it that night. And then I obviously went back up to his room with him, and then I'm like, in the dress. I'm like, well, I guess this is consent if I'm wearing the dress. Like, I mean, I guess I have to now, right? And so, yeah, I mean, we had very brief sex. And then the next couple weeks later, he flew me out to Miami. And I was under the impression that, like, oh, we're gonna go shopping. We're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. And that was not the case at all. We went to the gator park. And we did, like, basic crap. Like, it wasn't like I was. I was under the impression you mean alligators.

[Sponsor]

Yes.

[Guest]

Oh, like a wildlife park. We did, like, an airboat ride. Like, it was.

[Brooke Urich]

Now you really had to, like, hang out.

[Guest]

So then I was, like, just kind of enjoying his company or whatever, and so.

[Brooke Urich]

And did you ever have sex there, too?

[Guest]

Yeah, I think we did. I don't remember. It was like. I mean, it was all very cool. So I don't exactly remember what happened that trip, but then he. For my birthday, it was my 22nd birthday, he flew me out to Miami again, and we were gonna go to Key West. And I was like, oh, it's my birthday. He's really gonna spoil me this year. You're gonna be, like, on a beautiful.

[Brooke Urich]

Beach resort at least.

[Guest]

Oh, he's probably gonna get me a helicopter ride or something. Cool. You know? And we drove in his truck to Key west from Miami. The drive, which is actually a really beautiful drive across the aisles. It's like the Seven Mile highway or whatever. And so I was like, all right, fine. Like, my birthday is coming up. Like, he's really.

[Brooke Urich]

Are you having to, like, talk to him the whole time, or could you just, like, look out the window?

[Guest]

I mean, yes and no. He did. Oh, I remember he took me by the University of Miami campus, and he's like, oh, this is where I used to go to school, and that's where you'll get your master's degree. And I was like, my master's degree? I'm like, I don't even want to be in school right now. But him, his fantasy was that I would be a college girl forever, and I would just stay this young college girl that just is. And I'm like, okay, well, you have it twisted.

[Brooke Urich]

Was he ever married or anything?

[Guest]

He had not been married, he said, but he did have a son, like, in Michigan or something like that.

[Brooke Urich]

So he was, like, generous with you, but you really don't know if he was a wealthy person?

[Guest]

No, and I don't think he was. I think he, like, had a few bucks to spend on me. But then for my birthday, he's like, oh, we're going to rent a boat. And so me in Key West? Yeah, in Key West. So I thought, like, we were going to rent a speed boat.

[Brooke Urich]

Miami bike, sporty.

[Guest]

Yeah. I was like, I'm going to be on the bow, something sporty. And he rented me the fishing boat from hell. It was not cute. It was a fricking fishing boat. It smelled like Tuna guts. Like, there's one little seat and didn't get any food. It was like a terrible. Like, it was not what I thought it was going to be at all. And then when it finally came time to, like, give me my gift. Gift he. I had asked for. I wanted a watch with a big face.

[Brooke Urich]

And the gift was Dick in the box. Yeah.

[Guest]

Yeah, exactly. Pretty much. Pretty much, yeah. And then I got. It was like a Burberry watch.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay.

[Guest]

And I mean, it was probably like 500 bucks or something. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. And I think he got me, like, another dress. It was like a Roberto Cavelli dress, but it didn't fit me. Like, he, like, didn't understand my sizes or, like, thought I had, like, giant breasts or something. Like, I did not fill out this dress. And so I was like, okay. Like, this is nice. But I just felt like he spent more money on me in Las Vegas than he did for my birthday.

[Brooke Urich]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And so I was just like, oh. Like, I guess it's not really what I expected. I was like, but fine. So at that point, we had negotiated that I would quit my job and he would give me money each month. He was gonna give me $1,500 a month for mine.

[Brooke Urich]

Enough to quit your job, though?

[Guest]

Well, it was for my bills. And then he was going to, like, I mean, the plan. He wanted me to move to Miami eventually. So I think he was, like, kind of giving me enough to, like, sustain me.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay.

[Guest]

And then was trying to just, like, get me out there, like, I guess as I would need things or whatever. And, I mean, it was back in 2013.

[Brooke Urich]

And what were you thinking at that point? Were you thinking, really, this is an option? Or were you like. Were you like, oh, my God, Brooke, you do not want to be hanging out with this guy for the next five years. Like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, when did you have, like, a come to Jesus moment where you're like, what am I doing? This isn't that fun. This isn't that great.

[Guest]

I mean, I. I guess not yet. Well, so he wanted to take me on a trip around the world. He was like, oh, well, you know, we could go on a trip. And we are. Our different locations will, like, progress our latitude, and we'll go around the whole world. So we're gonna go on this, like, long month, long vacation. So that was kind of like, in my mind, I was like, oh, shoot.

[Brooke Urich]

Like, I do think, like, because for me, I would be all, yeah, excited about the trip. But then I'd be like, but if you didn't, maybe you did like him. But I'm thinking you didn't. So I'm like, you do have to talk to him, see him, be around him, see his toenails. Like, all of that for a year. Like, I don't think anything sounds worse.

[Guest]

Honestly, at the time, I didn't like him, and I didn't think that I, like, wanted to be with him. But I think part of it, too, was, like, my mindset was that, like, I want to have these experiences, okay? Like, the experiences and the feeling that I had seen because I'm in Las Vegas, right? So I had seen other girls, like, getting these experiences. And I was like, I'm cute enough to get that. Like, I want that too. And so. And it's. Social media was kind of on the rise, right? Like, Instagram had been around for, like, a few years, and, like, people are posting all this crazy stuff on Instagram. I was like, oh, shoot. Like, I could do that. So I really wanted to take the trip. Like, I had never been, like, kind of on a big trip like that, and that was my goal. So I ended up not selecting my final semester of classes because he was going to take me on the. And so it ended up that I requested my allowance from him a little bit too promptly, and he got the feeling that I was using him, and so he ghosted me. So that was after he was supposed to, like, pay me, but I had already quit my job and not picked my classes. So I was kind of in a bind where I was like, well, financial aid had passed, so I didn't have money for classes. I couldn't pick my classes. I didn't have a job. And it just so happened that when I met the people that worked at Seeking Arrangement, they had offered me a job.

[Brooke Urich]

How did you meet them then?

[Guest]

So after the initial casting.

[Brooke Urich]

All right.

[Guest]

I was then offered a modeling opportunity for some content. They were shooting for a new dating website. And if you want to look at the most cringe photos in the world. World, you can go find the photos for carrot dating. Not the diamond kind, the carrot with green stems. There's some very cringe photos out there. There's like, a Wired article that came out at the time for this app they were launching.

[Brooke Urich]

What was that about?

[Guest]

It was about bribing someone for a date. So instead of giving her money, you would give her a gift. Oh, I know. So all very weird installations no longer exist? I don't think so. I honestly have no idea. Idea. Okay. But I went to this stock photography shoot and it was clean. There wasn't anything in particular. Like, it wasn't like, I didn't have to take my clothes off or anything like that. And at the time I was like, broke. So it was before that. The Milk Dud guy. It was before any of that happened. It was like right after I had joined the site. So I really had no experiences yet.

[Brooke Urich]

Yeah.

[Guest]

But when I met the marketing manager at that shoe, she asked me what I did. She's like, do you have a job? You're in school. And I told her I was a journalism major and I was working at this adult novelty company. So I was telling her my little spiel that I gave you. And so I was like just talking about, you know, sex very casually. And she was like, you're really good at talking about sex. You should work for us. And I was like, oh, thank you. But, like, I think I'm gonna go find a sugar daddy. And so I tried my luck finding a sugar daddy. I found out it was not at all what I thought it was going to. And then I was really in a bind. And my mom actually went. She's like, well, didn't that lady offer you a job? And I was like, yeah, she did.

[Brooke Urich]

I was like, but did your mom know that you were doing the sugar baby thing?

[Guest]

Yes.

[Brooke Urich]

Yeah, she did. Are your parents married? Like, how did she feel about that?

[Guest]

They're divorced. And they got divorced when I was young. And she was always kind of of the mind that, like, I'm gonna do whatever I'm gonna do, and if she were to tell me not to do that, it would only make me do it more. So she would rather me be honest with her about what I was doing than to be left out of the loop. Because I think that she's gonna tell me not to do that.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay.

[Guest]

So, I mean, I think there was like a certain element of permissiveness that kind of led me to do this. And the fact that she, like, wanted me to be open about sex and, like, wanted me to, like, be on birth and that. And those are the lies that I think parents were told at the time as well, that you want your children to talk about sex, you want your children to be honest with you about these things. But then there's like a double edged sword to it because I was so easily talking about sex and I was. And then it was kind of like that. That turned me into that person a little bit. I mean, the working at the novelty place obviously didn't help but yeah, I ended up meeting the founder and the marketing manager that day, and she offered me a job, but I was going to go try my luck as a sugar baby. And then when I was destitute at the bottom of my bank account and hadn't picked my classes, had quit my job, and I thought that even without my degree, like, I didn't have. I didn't. Hadn't walked yet. I had like one semester of classes left. I was gonna do all my electives the last semester and just have kind of like a fun semester. But I never picked my classes because I thought I was going on a trip around the world. So I never got my degree. Like, still to this day, I don't have a degree. I did do all my core classes, though. So I called her and I was like, hey, are you still looking for people? And so she ended up hiring me as a PR coordinator, making $35,000 a year, which was more money than I'd ever seen. And I was like, oh, shoot. I actually got my offer letter on the day I was walking. So at unlv, they let you apply for graduation before you've actually finished your credits. So I was like, oh, perfect, I can walk for graduation. Everyone will think I graduated. I'll get a picture of me in the Cap and Gas and then I'll just start my job. And like trella. And so I did. So I was 22 when I started the job. I just turned 22. Was after that working for the seeking arrangement. Working for the company. Yeah. And I had no idea about corporate life. I had been working for, like a family run, warehouse, adult novelty company. So, like, I didn't know anything about, like, how corporate America really worked. And I didn't have any experience in pr. I didn't even know what PR really was. And I mean, if you don't know what PR is, I know it's kind of tossed around a lot. So basically, PR reps are liaisons between companies and media. So you're, as a PR representative, you're trying to get different media, news outlets, podcasts, whoever it is, to cover your brand, essentially.

[Brooke Urich]

And so what years did you work there?

[Guest]

The very end of 2013. I actually started on December 30, 2013, and then I ended up getting laid off along with like 12 other people at the beginning of 2019, like January 2, 2019. So it was five years. But on paper it's. The years are a little bit different. So I was just.

[Brooke Urich]

Were you there when Rachel was okay?

[Guest]

So I was the Spokesperson internally for the company. And then after we all got let go in at the beginning, very beginning of 2019, I believe her contract began in 2020 or 2021. And she was an external spokesperson who was hired for the company to kind of do the same thing that I had been doing, but not as like an internal like PR employee. It was more just like as a talking head kind of thing. And I mean, their relationship went very sour. Right. And I believe it's because after the Matt Gaetz scandal broke, their PR strategy changed and they no longer wanted to use her.

[Brooke Urich]

And what is the Matt Gaetz scandal?

[Guest]

So Matt gave Republican congressman from Florida, or he was a Republican congressman, I think he stepped down. I don't really know what his deal is, but if you've heard about him in the news recently, Trump appointed him to be the Attorney general and people didn't like that. So he stepped down as attorney general and Trump appointed Pam Bondi, who ironically was lobbying for like anti sex trafficking, which is very interesting. Anyway, so what happened in 2021 is news of this scandal brought where this man named Joel Greenberg, who was like a tax collector in Florida, he was found to have been sex trafficking minors using. Seeking. Using seeking arrangement using the website. And then allegedly Matt Gaetz had sex with one of these minors. And I mean, to be clear, like, I don't know what happened with Matt Gates. I don't know Matt Gaetz. Never met him, don't know him. So what I can tell you about that is there was an indictment against him. For a long time they were building up this indictment, but it ended up getting dropped. And people were kind of wondering why this indictment got dropped. And I mean, I think I know why it was dropped. So in 2022 I was contacted by an attorney who was representing the minor who had been trafficked on the website by Joel Greenberg. And Joel Greenberg is currently serving an 11 year sentence for tax evasion and sex trafficking. So I'm pretty sure that he really was on the site and he really was doing this. But the attorney that contacted me in 2022 told me that he was suing Matt Gaetz and suing seeking arrangement on the girl's behalf. So he had some questions for me about the mechanics of the website and just how things work. So I basically gave him the tea because at the time I was also involved with other journalists. In 2021, when the scandal initially broke, the New York Times reached out to me and so did ABC 2020. They were both pursuing stories and I gave them everything I had. They were very clear that they were going to do this story exposing the website, showing that, you know, it really is very easy for underage girls to get sex trafficked on this website. And those stories never came out after.

[Brooke Urich]

You did the entire interview.

[Guest]

I did. I probably talked to the New York Times journalist for, like, seven hours. ABC 20, respectively. They were, like, separately working on the same story around the same time. ABC flew me out to New York, had a day of production buzzing around me. At the beginning of 2022, they were going to do a sizzle reel for, like, a concept about the sugar world and what it really is. And. And those stories never came out.

[Brooke Urich]

And when you reached out and was like, hey, just check it in. When is this gonna air? What response would you get?

[Guest]

Oh, we're working on it. We're working on it. But now they don't talk to me anymore. They don't even respond to me.

[Brooke Urich]

So if you wrote them today, they would just doubt right back.

[Guest]

Well, the last time I Talked to the 2020 guy, he was like, oh, I'm gonna call you. And then he never did. So. Okay, whatever. But, oh, back to the Matt Gaetz thing. So then at the time, I was corresponding with that journalist, and he told me that the reason the indictment was dropped was because the girl, who was a minor at the time, believes that the relationship was consensual between her and Gates. So she's not willing to testify, and so therefore it's dropped. And I think what kind of happens in these situations is when you hear the term sex trafficking thrown around, you think that, oh, they're being forced, they're being put in cages, and immigrants and children being sold. And, like, I'm not saying that doesn't happen because I'm certain it does. But a lot of times sex trafficking is more nuanced. So what it really is is when one person, usually a man, someone like Joel Greenberg, right. Procures women off of the website. Okay. So he reached out to them, says, hey, you know, establishes a relationship with whatever, and then he transports that woman to somewhere else to then have her paid for sex. And a lot of times the participants are willing because they're being paid for sex. So sex trafficking isn't always someone being lured and coerced and forced into sex.

[Brooke Urich]

Right. Like in a. In the back of a van, driving over state lines and blindfold and.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Brooke Urich]

Thrown into a dirty hotel room. And.

[Guest]

Yeah, and I'm sure that all does happen.

[Brooke Urich]

That all does happen. But, yeah, there's different levels.

[Guest]

But the majority situation, the majority of the time, the traffickers is someone, you know, sometimes it's a family member, and a lot of times the people who are willing participants, the young girls who are willing participants who are willing to be paid for sex, they're the ones who are then chosen to be then trafficked. And it's kind of like incremental. Right. Like, it escalates from there. And then it's unspoken like, well, I did this for you, so you do this for me. And the people who are complacent are the ones who then get more money, get more trips, get more this, get more that. So it puts you in a very bad situation if you're one of these people who's being trafficked, because now you've done something illegal. So you're in a position where you think that you're going to get arrested or you're going to get solicitation charges if you don't drop the case or do whatever. So it's like they have you in this bind when you're participating in sex work that you are ashamed. You don't want to share it with anybody. But also you're scared because they threaten you with lawsuits and they tell you if you don't do what I tell you to do, then we're going to file solicitation charges against you. And I don't know if any of that happened with this girl or anyone, but I just know that that's the situation that they get put in, because anecdotally, I've heard it many times.

[Brooke Urich]

Well, this was fascinating. You explain it so well. The writing is great. Get this book. What a juicy read over the holidays. Can you tell everybody where they can find it? Is there, like, tell everybody where they can find it?

[Guest]

You can find it where books are sold. It's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble. You can get the audiobook pretty soon. I think it's coming out in, like, a couple days, so hopefully by the time the podcast comes out.

[Brooke Urich]

Did you do it?

[Guest]

I did.

[Brooke Urich]

Okay, great.

[Guest]

I recorded it myself. I read it myself, and it was very emotional reading it.

[Brooke Urich]

Oh, good.

[Sponsor]

But, yeah.

[Guest]

Yeah, it's a quick read. I wrote a book kind of for people who don't really like to read very much. So it's, like, kind of going to hook you in.

[Brooke Urich]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And hopefully teach you some lessons along the way.

[Brooke Urich]

Wink, wink, nudge, nudge by Brooke Urich. And thank you for your complete and total honesty. I know I ask a lot of, like, straightforward, kind of weird questions because it's like what I'm. What the audience is thinking too, since I have never experienced it. That's why I, I was always sort of fascinated with the rise of this type of thing. And so it's really interesting to see someone your age. How old are you now?

[Guest]

I'm 33.

[Brooke Urich]

Yeah. See someone your age, 33, that went from the meeting the guy online at 15 to finding yourself in Vegas with this thing that seems so cool and very transactional. And let's just be honest in this relationship with these guys to the real truth of it and now your perspective as, you know, a young educated woman, you're really smart and I'm really glad that you shared it. And I also glad that people know that these stories get reported on by the biggest news media in the world and then they get squashed and silenced and thrown away and you go, oh, I wonder why. Well, well, this person at the company that you're talking about is associated with this person and this person and this person. Story's not being run, so that's why I like what I do, though. It's not. I have had my share of difficulty with people trying to shut me down too, for the last almost 10 years, and I'm glad I haven't. And I'm glad that I get to meet people like you that, you know, so smart and strong and, and really, really great interviews. Thank you so much for coming.

[Guest]

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for the candid questions too. I'm sure, like, lots of people have questions, so reach out to me. I'm definitely willing to answer them.

[Brooke Urich]

And where can they find you on Instagram?

[Guest]

Rooke Urich. I'm just starting out. My following is small because I was waiting to come forward on Instagram until the book was out because I was scared, like something might happen, I might get silenced. So, yeah, please give me a follow DM me if you have questions and I'm willing to tell you literally whatever you want to know because I think this is a, a really important topic and a lot of the book is kind of revealed on Instagram. Like, I created a visual companion to the book, so you don't necessarily need to read the book to understand what's going on. Just because I think it's really important to tell people what the heck is going on.

[Brooke Urich]

But we want you to buy the book.

[Guest]

But also buy the book.

[Brooke Urich]

All right, thank you.

[Sponsor]

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