Tessa Latifi (26:30)

Thank you for having me. Glad to be here.

Heather McDonald (26:33)

So for Tessa, I mean, what are your thoughts when you saw what happened in the last, you know, 48 hours?

Tessa Latifi (26:42)

Yeah, I mean, it was really harrowing. I think obviously this is not the first time that Taylor Frankie Paul has been accused of domestic violence. But I think, you know, you can look at one time and think maybe it was a one off, maybe it was like a strange thing that happened. And they obviously seem to be in a pretty toxic relationship. But for something to come up a second time is really difficult. And especially when it seems like the children were involved. I mean, the first time in the police report, you can read that she threw a chair at Dakota, her boyfriend, and it hit her daughter. And this time it seems that it's alleged that their son, their young son, ever, who's a toddler, was in the room while they were having this experience. And so that's, that's really troubling.

Heather McDonald (27:29)

Also, someone else cut a showed a clip from the actual show of Secret Lives of Born Wives in which Demi, who's no longer really part of the show, she refused to do interviews this season. She's having it out with Taylor among the other girls in season four. And she says, when are you gonna stop? And you know, yeah, why don't I ask Dakota? Why don't you stop with him? And I think now that in light of things, it sounds like, you know, men can be physically abused. There's an incredible documentary out about this man, I believe he was in England, that was like physically abused by his wife for years. And he, like recorded it. And it's, you know, because people don't think it can happen. I'm not saying that is her. And it's just very interesting and everyone can chime in because we've all watched her for years on social media where many people fell in love with her and on the show for these last few years. And the comments on a video I did where I just kind of asked, what should we do? Should they still film? Should they, should they still air the Bachelorette? And I didn't even pose the question on that video. But I think the biggest question is, if this was a man, you know, would we be featuring him as the Bachelor? And in the comments of my video, someone said he knew how to set her off. And I'm like, whoa. Would you ever in 2026 tell a female who is a victim of a domestic violence situation you knew how to push his buttons?

Tessa Latifi (29:09)

No, that feel.

Heather McDonald (29:10)

Who knew to bring up the fact that he hadn't a job in six months and therefore you deserve to be hit? Like, what do you mean, press someone's buttons? No one. No matter what someone says to you, you shouldn't put your hands on them. Especially in 2026, whether you're, you know, a 6, 5 man or a 5, 200 pound girl. Like, it's so more and more is coming out. And I guess this fight happened now, like February 24th or something. And so again, the fans of Taylor are saying, well, he's choosing to go forward with this account or whatever now and share his story because he's so jealous that she's coming out with a bachelor. And I'm like, and then the other part is, we know that now that she picked some guy named Doug and that clearly she didn't last with Doug because she went back with Dakota and then probably thought he was cheating or something. I mean, pretty ironic that you're mad at someone for cheating when you went and dated 30 men prior to that. But it's, it's all ugly. And then it all comes to the kids. And, you know, in this particular show, everybody has a fresh baby for us to oogle at. And they're all adorable.

Tessa Latifi (30:28)

Yeah, of course.

Heather McDonald (30:29)

I mean, they're, they're, they're babies. They're perfect babies. And they're all attractive people. And some of the Couples have great partners who are the dads who are, like, very supportive, like Whitney's husband. But, I mean, what do you think about that? That's truly the Truman show, and that these kids, from the moment they're born. I mean, it happened with Mason on the Kardashians, and he's kind of really doesn't want to be in the camera as much anymore. From the moment you're born, you're on

Tessa Latifi (30:56)

TV or, you know, I think about the kids from Teen mom. You know, I'm 32, and I grew up with Teen mom and 16 and pregnant. And those kids were. Their births were literally taped. And, you know, Mason's birth on Keeping up with the Kardashians was literally taped. And so these kids are just in the spotlight from the very beginning. And I do think it's fascinating, especially on Mormon wives, where they're having these really adult conversations around older kids who can understand it? I mean, if it's a baby, obviously a baby doesn't get it. Like, you can talk about whatever in front of a newborn baby, but there's this scene where Taylor and her mom are talking about her toxic relationship with Dakota in front of her older children. And I'm just like, it's just strange. And for the camera to be there and to be capturing every moment of your mother's toxic relationships, I can't imagine how that must feel.

Heather McDonald (31:49)

I also feel in this day and age, it's such a hamster wheel because. And you talk about this in your book because one of the people that you interviewed that's making $500,000 a year doing what she's doing is like. She's like, if I could not be on the Internet, I wouldn't be, but it is how I make $500,000 a year. She was a Christian girl who, you know, got married young, had a baby, 18, and just had a knack for putting out content that was, you know, she knew how to edit it and people liked it and all this. Of course, she has her haters, too. But, like, what is she going to do now? Is she going to, you know, throw it away and go to nursing school, which is incredibly difficult. Is not going to make her $500,000 a year. So I get. And now all the guys, they don't have their jobs anymore because they had to step in as the dads. So they're trying to make this stupid dad talk work. Nobody wants dad talk.

Tessa Latifi (32:48)

Stop trying to make dad talk happen. I literally. Can I tell you that I fast forward through the dad talk scenes. I don't care. Also, they're, like, making fun of the women and they feel resentful towards them, but they're also riding their coattails. And it's just, like, gross. I'm just, like, the only one who I think is a truly supportive husb as Connor, as Whitney's husband, when she's crying about, like, I feel like I'm not around for the kids, blah, blah, and he tells her, I've got you. Like, I've got them. Like, don't worry. Like, this is a big moment in your career. And when you look at what Jen's relationship, where her husband is telling her, like, why aren't you home more? Why aren't you doing this? And it's like, but you're. But you don't have a job. She's the breadwinner, so what do you want her to do?

Heather McDonald (33:28)

When I saw that with Jen and Zach, I felt the immediate anxiety of codependency that you would feel having a great moment and looking over and seeing that your man is, like, annoyed that you're getting the attention and he is not. And how now you have to manage that along with everything being a delight, you know, these girls, which is just fascinating. When I saw Jen have the stylist come, you know, with all the clothes lined up, you know, which she needs. And it's like, I've done that. I've had a press tour and all that kind of stuff. I didn't have a stylist. I did my own thing. But it is very overwhelming. And she's this. For a normal person in Hollywood, this would have been many years to get to a level of a stylist comes over to make sure that you have something for the Emmys and the this and the that. I mean, that's 15, 20 years. Like, from the time that you were taking acting classes to. Then you got the five and under stuff, then you got the sitcom stuff. Now you're, you know, you did the growlings. Now you're Lisa Catral. You're 30 years old. You're finally on Friends. Like, that's. That's the trajectory that my generation knew this is. You know, you have. You have a hotspot on TikTok because you admit to being a swinger, and literally three and a half years later, you're

Tessa Latifi (34:53)

the stars.

Heather McDonald (34:55)

Yeah, right. Which can all be taken from you, like, with, you know, Frankie, Taylor, Paul and Taylor. Frankie Paul and as we. And it's a great name, by the way, but people just go, tfp but she's on the Today Show. You know, they're clearly want us to watch this. They are not. There's. As of now, there's no talk of not airing it. I think it's incredible that when you look at people that have had TV shows for years, like some of the Vanderpump stars and things like that, that they found a tweet that they wrote when they were 15, and it was instant firing. You're losing a tour. Da, da, da, da. This is over with. You said a dumb thing on an Instagram. You. You sang a song that was caught on video that had the N word in it, and you said it. You're done. Like, losing deal. And this. I'm just kind of like. It is shocking, and it. I don't know if it's the state of how bad Hollywood is as far as financial and morality and everything else, but listen, am I curious to watch it? Yeah. I mean, I haven't watched the Bachelorette in a few seasons, and I actually was on it years ago, and so I was gonna watch it, at least skim through her to look for the highlights with this. Even though we know she ends up with Dakota and what goes on, I think people would watch it because they're like, who is this chick? So I can see. I just can't imagine what are the calls. Is happening with all these executives, and can they just make us forget the way they do? People forget.

Tessa Latifi (36:45)

People forget. But I also think that, like, there are sponsors pulling out. Like, Cinnabon pulled out of the Bachelorette as a sponsor.

Heather McDonald (36:53)

I didn't realize Cinnamon pulled out of the show. I just thought she had a deal with Cinnamon.

Tessa Latifi (36:57)

No, no, it was from the show. Yeah. So I think if it affects their bottom line, they might have to think about it a little bit differently, because I think this is all a financial decision. Right. Like, they're deciding, is the money we sank into the show worth, you know, going forward or worth scrapping it? But if they're gonna lose future advertisers, like, maybe it's not worth.

Heather McDonald (37:19)

I mean, the thing is, is that, you know, what are you gonna put in an old season of some ABC sitcom? Like, it. This is still traditional tv. It has a time on an actual night. So it's like, if something was to happen with my show, I'm like, okay, let me scramble and, you know, let me do something else, and it's me. But you're not. If you. They don't air it, they're essentially losing whatever, 20 hours or how many episodes they are.

Tessa Latifi (37:45)

Totally.

Heather McDonald (37:46)

That's set in the schedule of traditional tv. And I think that's why they're not automatically saying hey we're not going to air this. You know. And it's one thing for the production on the other show Secret Lives to stop because they're just filming it so they can tell everybody you're gonna take a two week break. They probably won't pay em either. But you know, poor staff. Yeah. And I. And then. So what do you think should happen? As someone who has really studied this with your book, which is all about the whole world of family vlogging and mommy influencers and also Mormons being such great influencers and why they're wildly good at it. Guys, you know, I love Quince because it is high quality luxury, beautiful items for much much less. And I just got a beautiful dark green silk blouse that looks so similar to my much more expensive silk blouses that I've been wearing for years. The quality is amazing, the color is stunning and I love that I got it at Quince for such a great deal. Quince works directly with safe ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. You're not paying for brand markup or fancy retail stores, just quality clothing. Quince clothing is consistently rated four and a half to five stars by thousands of customers. Real people wearing these pieces every day and actually loving them like I do right now. Go to quince.com juicy for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to wear it and love it. And you will now available in Canada too. So don't keep settling. For clothes that don't last. Go to quince Q-U-I-N-C-E.com juicy for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com juicy this episode is sponsored by Warby Parker. Spring is here and I always love getting a new pair of fabulous glasses. I wanted to show you my Warby Parker glasses. How cute are these? So unique of a style. First of all the shape is perfect for my face. I absolutely love them when it comes to quality for the price, Warby Parker is by far the best. Warby Parker doesn't just offer incredible prescription glasses. They have everything you need for happier eyes. That includes contacts, online eye exams and sunglasses. They also have over 300 retail stores across the US. One was right down the street from me and and they were able to make my glasses fit my head perfectly. Warby Parker gives you quality and better looking prescription eyewear at a fraction of the going price. Our Juicy scoopers will get 15% off plus free shipping when they buy two or more pairs of prescription glasses at warbyparker.com Juicyscoop that's 15% off when you buy two pairs of glasses at w a r-byparker.com JuicyScoop after you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support Juicy Scoop and tell them Heather McDonald sent you. This episode is brought to you by Peloton Break through the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus. Powered by Peloton iq. With real time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time. Let yourself run, lift, situation, sculpt, push and go explore the new peloton cross

Tessa Latifi (41:21)

training tread plus@1peloton.com I think everyone honestly has to make their decision about whether they're comfortable watching this on their own. And I think I was looking at the Bachelor subreddit last night and there were just thousands of comments of people being like, this is the first season that I will not watch. And people really were taking this seriously because I think part of Taylor Frankie Paul's allure is that she's like this messy kind of girl and like she's always kind of making mistakes and she's like owning up to it or whatever. But then this is different, you know, like alleged domestic violence and alleged child abuse. Like, that's not messy. Like that's just terrible, you know, So I don't think people want to see it. And it's like, interesting because I wanted to watch her season. I was really interested. And I also haven't watched the Bachelorette in years because I think it's just like a waning show. But once I saw that, like she ends up back with Dakota and she ends up in this terrible situation, it's like, why do I want to watch her get there? Like, it. It just takes the wind out of the sails of the whole thing. Because the promise of the Bachelorette is you're watching some people fall in love, but if you know that she's gonna go back to her ex boyfriend, then it's like, well, what's the point of watching?

Heather McDonald (42:26)

And also, you know, we've had parents on the show before on the Bachelorette and the Bachelor where a guy has a kid or whatever, and part of it is, oh, you know, by the seventh, you know, episode, the little girl can come on the Disney trip with them or whatever. But other than that, they're not seeing their kids. Now. There are people that don't see their kids for months because they're on a movie set or they're fighting a war or it's the dad. So I don't want to, like, parent shame her. And I don't know that in her case, maybe they had an Airbnb down the street with grandma and the three kids the whole time, and she could visit them all the time. So we don't know what that situation is. But at this point, as she's doing the press and everything, and she's like, my kids come first. I'm like, okay, if they come. If you're saying they come first, because this is how I make my money now is to film and be on the Bachelor. But when you just think about, like, you have two, you know, two baby daddies, three kids, you have a swinging scandal. You have. You already were arrested before. You have this volatile relationship with this guy. I mean, if it wasn't about money and a career, you could not think of a worse opportunity for her. Anything could have been better. Masked singer, Dancing with the Stars, like the two other girls did. Anything could have been better than. And I feel like when she was offered it,

Tessa Latifi (44:03)

if.

Heather McDonald (44:04)

If someone was around her, said it would go. Hold out for Dancing with the Stars, maybe go on, whatever. Something else if you need it, but you probably don't, like, it just was, like, the worst thing that you could do. Like, really, you need to go now. Date 30 more guys. I'm sorry. People are gonna be mad that I said it, but, like, I'm sure most girls that are watching this, especially ones that have young kids, are like, we all. Yeah, you. We all deserve to find love. But also, I know a lot of single moms that take off significant time between relationships and don't know.

Tessa Latifi (44:41)

And then what? You bring this man home that they don't know at all, and you're like, this is my new fiance. Like, did you watch Love is Blind this season?

Heather McDonald (44:49)

Just parts of it, but you go

Tessa Latifi (44:51)

ahead, talk about it.

Heather McDonald (44:52)

Cause I know it's a mom.

Tessa Latifi (44:54)

There was a single mom named Amber on the show, and I loved her as a character. I loved her as a person. But, like, it was so troubling to me, like, when they showed up to the wedding, and her daughter, who I think was around, like, eight, had just met the, like, future husband, like, the day before, and then the daughter, like, looked really uncomfortable with, like, the filming and was kind of like, which, like, duh. It's really overwhelming. But like, I was watching that and I was like, amber, girl, you deserve love, et cetera, et cetera. But like, this is not a good choice. Like, I maybe a hot take and like, people won't like it, but I don't think that single parents should be on dating shows. Because then what? You come home and you introduce this guy and you're like, you don't know him, but he's your new stepdad, you know? And then this couple divorced. They got married on the show and then they divorced a few months later. And in the reunion, she's crying about how her daughter took the divorce. And it's like, I really feel for them, but I'm also like, this was almost like bound to happen. Like, how I don't understand, like, bringing in a random guy into your daughter's life.

Heather McDonald (45:55)

I mean, how can an 8 year old understand? They're 8. This is your new daddy. Oh, good, now I have a dad. And now he's gone. Is he gone because of me? Right now my mommy's crying, did I do anything wrong? Was he not cut out to be a dad? I mean, those must be the thoughts and talk to anybody who's an adult now that had multiple stepparents. And it's a different childhood than someone that didn't. That didn't just. Or they just. It's. It's different than someone who had a solid single parent. It's different than someone who had, you know, gay parents. It's different than someone who had a traditional family, you know, per se. They go through stuff that if you did not go through that as a kid, you don't understand that feeling of abandonment and did I do something wrong? And.

Tessa Latifi (46:46)

And it's not to say that single parents don't deserve love. Obviously they do. But like, I think part of being a parent is putting your child first and saying it's not the time. Right. This is not the right way to do it, to just show up at home with this new fiance.

Heather McDonald (47:01)

Yes, I totally agree. Let's get into some of your book because it's really fascinating. I know you've worked on it for a long time. You've done so many interviews. And one of the things that I thought was the juiciest is that you found from numerous parent influencers. Mom influencers said the, the videos that always did the best, meaning they got the most views immediately, were being shared, watched through the entirety, was when it featured their children being sick. Sick, injured or sad.

Tessa Latifi (47:37)

Yeah.

Heather McDonald (47:38)

Wow.

Tessa Latifi (47:39)

I know, I know. I Mean, for me, I've had that instinct for a few years that this was true, but for them to know it consciously and to admit it to me and to tell me about it, I think it really changed my understanding of what's going through their mind when they record it.

Heather McDonald (47:55)

Yeah. And I always remember that one video where the girl got caught. She was filming with her son, and it was that the dog had died.

Tessa Latifi (48:06)

The dog had, like, parvo. I don't have dogs, so I don't know, but it's like a disease, A like, fatal disease that young puppies get. And she was telling the son that, like, the dog might die. And she's. He's crying on her shoulder, like, legitimately crying. I think he was, like, around 8 years old. And then she's saying she accidentally uploaded this to you YouTube instead of editing it, and she's saying, no, no, turn your face so they can see your tears and cry this way. And he's like, mom, I am crying. Like, you don't have to tell me to cry. I am crying. And she's just, like, coaching him on which way to turn his face so that they see the tears. And it's just like. I don't know. There are a lot of things that I can, like, empathize with. Like, as a parent, I wouldn't make those choices, but I can understand being in a different position in my life and choosing those things. But to coach your kid when they're already devastated and crying and to. To tape it and to post it, I mean, I don't understand, like, can you understand that? What are your thoughts on it?

Heather McDonald (49:05)

I. I just think that with this younger generation who are parents, they were raised themselves being into social media, so they start doing it and they like the views, even if they're not making money from it. They like that it's getting attention and it just becomes natural. Just like if you were to tell your kid 30 years ago, they're 12, but they're still going to work at the ice cream shop that the family owns.

Tessa Latifi (49:45)

Sure.

Heather McDonald (49:45)

Like, you still have to show up on Saturday and stock the cones or whatever it is. And technically, yeah, he's 12. He probably should be doing that. When my parents were realtors, I had to drop off these notepads at every house, and I had to deliver pumpkins, and we had to stuff envelopes, and I had to try to get them listings. And so I do get it, but it's about the weird exposure and the emotional of it all, and the illness, too. That was the Other crazy story was that family. And you talked about this as well, that put one of their daughters on the thumbnail. And I know how thumbnails work because we do YouTube for my show as well. And. But you don't want to be dishonest about what the thing is, you know, like, I wouldn't put, you know, whatever. Something that's not the guess, you know, like. Like, let's say for this, I put. I'm talking to. I got an exclusive with Taylor, Frankie, Paul. Well, I didn't get an exclusive. We talked about her, you know, but this one was even worse. They did the little girl, and it said whatever her name was. Posey or. What was her name.

Tessa Latifi (50:53)

Something. Yeah, Posey.

Heather McDonald (50:54)

Yeah, Posey has cancer story or something.

Tessa Latifi (50:59)

Yeah, she has cancer documentary. Yeah.

Heather McDonald (51:02)

And so people are like, oh, my God, now they're invested. They've watched this little girl. They think this family's cute, and. And it. She didn't have cancer. And then the video switches to some other little girl that has cancer. And at the end, you could do a GoFundMe. And I think what happened to that vlogging family? Because I know there was a lot of backlash over that.

Tessa Latifi (51:24)

There was a ton of backlash. I mean, people were like, you basically clickbaited us into thinking that your daughter has cancer. Like, what. What are you thinking? And they had had a lot of, like, clickbaity titles in the past, but nothing so explicit and to clickbait with, like, a child's potential cancer diagnosis, like, kind of beyond the pale. So there was a ton of backlash. And I think they've started doing less personal content because of that. But they're still one of the biggest family vlogging families out there. So I think when it comes to backlash, the bigger you are, the more you're able to withstand it, you know, like, it kind of bounces off you. Whereas that woman who posted the video of her son crying, where she's encouraging him to cry, she only had 500,000 YouTube subscribers, so she wasn't able to bounce back. But the Lebrant family who did the. She has cancer. They have, I don't know, over 8 million. I want to say, YouTube subscribers. So they're able to bounce back.

Heather McDonald (52:15)

You know, I remember. But before I forget, I want to make sure that before I talk. Go off of this tangents. This is my head. So much going through is. I also want to talk about how a person described in your book why family vlogging is popular. And that was. So just hold that thought. Real Quick. But I do want to say it reminded me of. Remember the woman who got. Who claimed that she was being followed around by what she believed were kidnappers at the Michaels in Northern California, Petaluma. And I remember where I was when the video popped up and what she said. And I remember. I don't mean to pat myself on the back, but I literally said to the person that was working for me at the time, I think this is fake. I think this girl is trying to get views. It was in her car. She acted like she was panicked. We later found out she filmed that after she came home, thought about it, went into the car, and filmed it. Later on, it became a case. This poor family, they were grandparents. They weren't doing anything wrong. The whole thing was made up. But there was a panic time of where, you know, and people are. Kids are getting stolen and trafficked. But it was a. A time where, oh, my God, you know, so it got a lot of views. Beware. All this other stuff really damaged that couple's life. And they were completely innocent. And again, like, the same thing of I want my kid to be feeling sad or hurt gets a lot of views. It's why adults we've joked about, they're about to cry, and they're like, let me film myself crying. Because they. Those. Those get viewed because you're scrolling and you see someone you follow or even someone crying, and you're like, my God, what do they cry about? So now you're. And it's like, there's no other time where, you know, that's what people would do in their privacy. And now it's like, oh, my God. This will get you views. Your vulnerability to show that you're crying, you know? Yeah, it's. It's crazy. And so now I wanted to mention that. That going in the car because, you know, I made a funny video the other day of how, like, you have to eat or do contouring your nose or go in the car or walk or act or even act like you're driving. That always works well. Like, something about it works better than you just talking to the camera. Like last night when I did the. The thing about my take on Taylor and asking people what they think, I'm like, I'm just gonna talk to the camera. I know it's not gonna get as many views if I was like, and you know what? I'll tell you something else, you know, but why do you think that is? I. I don't know. I'm always like, this makes me nervous. Why are you driving? Yes, but I think it's some. I think it's because they worked out the out. They know that the algorithm, whatever, works better if you're doing makeup, eating, even walking in your neighborhood. Something about it. And so it's like, just like your influencers that you followed said, I realized. So I think once you realize it, you're like, well, why would I go back to anything else? So the kid who's crying is sad. Nobody invited him to the birthday party. I mean, that's another thing when people do that, when they're like, in the car, like, they just got dropped the kid off the. And I was like, let me tell you something. All these moms are so mean. They don't invite me to anything and my kid wasn't invited to the birthday party. I'm like, what do you think those moms are gonna do now?

Tessa Latifi (55:54)

Like, is this gonna help?

Heather McDonald (55:56)

They're all gonna share it with each other and they're gonna be like, we don't wanna. With you. Essentially, that's what happened with the stars, with the Hillary Duff thing, where Hillary Duff said, oh, wrote the thing about toxic moms. And everybody's like, we're certainly not gonna invite you now. Like. Like, you don't need. We know who you are. Yeah. Now we know you're at our school.

Tessa Latifi (56:20)

Yeah.

Heather McDonald (56:23)

Yeah. I think that's also really sad about when people say, like, my kid wasn't invited to anyone's house, or they have no friends. Like, why would you do that? And then. And then. But then I think that's a lure too, because then people are like, that's it. Where's the GoFundMe? I'm gonna send your kid to Disneyland.

Tessa Latifi (56:41)

It's so bleak. It's so bleak. And I think it's like taking those things that you're worried about for your kid. Like, we all have those, right? Like, oh, I feel like my kid isn't as socially adept as other kids, or they're not invited to things or whatever. But then taking it online, like, that's not gonna make it better. Like, especially when the kids are older. Like those kids, their peers can find it online. And then they're gonna be like, haha, Jimmy, your mom's talking about how you don't have friends. You know what I mean? Like, it's not gonna help.

Heather McDonald (57:09)

No, it's not. And the other thing in your book that I thought was interesting, like I talked about before, is why do people are attracted to following these families? Because I don't follow Any family vloggers. It doesn't interest me. My kids are older. It doesn't interest me. I don't want to see it. But what your expert said was, it's like when you would go to someone's house for the first time for a sleepover, which now no one has sleepovers either. And no one's going to each other's houses, because even if you played video games, it used to be kids 15 years ago had to sit next to each other to play video games. Well, now they don't. So they really don't have to go to anyone's houses. And everyone's like, don't go to another person's house because they'll molest you. But when you go to someone else's house and you'd see, like, did. Oh, they. I love that they do this. Or, oh, my God, you guys are just gonna, like, I remember that I went to this lady's house, and she had, like, seven kids, and they had a nice house. And she came down and was like, can you guys be quiet? And she was always in, like, her pajamas. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Like, that's interesting. You know, like, we had fun. And they're like, okay. You know, like, and that's. But also in our generation, people went to other people's houses. So I thought that was really kind of crazy getting that in someone else's house.

Tessa Latifi (58:23)

Yeah. The way that we think about other families is. It's just fascinating, Right? It's the same reason that, like, keeping up with the Kardashians or Teen mom or, you know, John and Kate plus eight, or the Duggars, like, all of those things. Like, it's so fascinating to see how other families live their lives. Like, especially when there's some kind of hook when there's, like, a ton of kids or when they're religious or when they homeschool or that kind of thing. It's like, wait, people live like this?

Heather McDonald (58:49)

And why. When you talk about religious, you did a whole chapter of your book of how the Mormons have really excelled in influencing. And can you explain what you found?

Tessa Latifi (59:02)

So there, of the US population, only 2% identify as Mormon or from the Church of Latter Day Saints. But if you compare that to the amount of influencers that are Mormon, it's, like, astronomical. Like, I would say most of the most famous family vloggers and mom influencers are Mormon or Mormon adjacent. But it's not surprising when you look at the religion. And there are a few different reasons for that. But one is that they are encouraged to have kids really young and have a lot of kids. We know that does really well for the algorithm. The algorithm loves babies. We also know that the Mormon Church says that being beautiful is godly, and so presenting yourself in a beautiful manner is a way to be closer to God. And not only that, but they have this thing called the Prosperity doctrine, where basically the idea is that the more godly you are, the more likely you are to prosper financially. And so you have this religion where young women are told to be beautiful, to have kids really young, and that making money is a sign of godliness. And it's like, well, of course they're perfect influencers. And they're always. Their journaling is a really big thing in the Mormon Church. And so young women especially are taught to journal from a very young age and keep very detailed records. And so it's like, what is influencing if not journaling out, you know, out loud? And it's like. It's also. Mormonism is a very patriarchal religion, and so they're not meant to work outside the house, but this is kind of a loophole of like, you're working inside the house, but you're also working outside the house.

Heather McDonald (60:34)

Right. The same reason MLMs strive to do, you know, do so well in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do think it's interesting watching the Secret Lives of Morin wise because they all have this. These hair extensions.

Tessa Latifi (60:48)

Yeah.

Heather McDonald (60:49)

So long. And I'm like, wait a minute. Are you telling me not one girl could, like, naturally grow her hair that long? Like, it's. It's this excessive amount. Like, I'm guessing you guys without the extensions could still have beautiful hair.

Tessa Latifi (61:05)

Yeah.

Heather McDonald (61:06)

And I'm not against extensions. I just think it's interesting that every single one feels the need to have that and lip filler and be really thin, you know, and so I did not know about the beauty being a part of godliness. And I think that is so interesting because it's like in Catholicism, it's like, vanity is sick. Yeah.

Tessa Latifi (61:32)

It's not good. Yeah.

Heather McDonald (61:33)

So it's like you get too much. It's almost like, oh, my God. That, you know, my mom would always be like, that woman's a saint. And she'd look like, you know, seven kids. She'd be like, you know, cleaning out the. The festival and, like, doing all the things at the church and like, yeah, no, that woman was not put together. You know, it was. It's just. So I find that fascinating. Another thing I wanted to talk to you about is you said, oh, I wanted to know, did you find if when the kid is on a big YouTube and stuff and they're of elementary age or middle school, does that make them more popular in the class, in the school?

Tessa Latifi (62:16)

Yeah, it's really complicated because some of the kids that I talked to told me people are really interested in my YouTube fame, but once they realize that I won't put them on my channel, then they kind of turn away from it and then I'm a bit of a pariah because the thing is, like, kids are the same as us. Like, they want that clout. And if it's a family channel and you're not going to bring friends on it, then it's like not as interesting. But I think it's also difficult because I talked to a few years ago a young woman who her mom, and this is not uncommon. People are like always mind blown. But her mom made a sponsored post out of her first menstrual cycle and then she had to go to middle school and people were like, like, ah, we know you got your period. And that's like terrible. Like, what?

Heather McDonald (62:58)

That is crazy. I remember that story. Like, that is so crazy. And I also think like, you know, my, my sister was successful child actor doing commercials, just commercials. So she never left the school, but she'd be taken out for one day or whatever. And that's back when, you know. Yeah, there was only whatever, five channels and people would see her commercial Bold 3 and a couple other things. And it was a big talk at the school and she was like kind of being bullied and. But in that case she couldn't put them on tv.

Tessa Latifi (63:34)

Yeah, right.

Heather McDonald (63:35)

So like, I get why. Well, and I wonder if like other mothers want to be friends with that mother too. Like, well, maybe I should be doing this as well. I know from Real Housewives that I'm friendly with and have interviewed, they get to a place where they don't know if a new female friend is truly interested in being their friend or they're vying to get on the show somehow.

Tessa Latifi (63:57)

Totally.

Heather McDonald (63:58)

And not just to attend the party with cameras, like, get on the show. And then they, you know, and sometimes they definitely don't want that. So they don't make like any other friends for years or they do want it and then the friend turns on them and then they're like, well, I'm never doing that again, you know.

Tessa Latifi (64:13)

Right, right. Yeah. I think it's really difficult as a kid in general to make friends, let alone being like, oh, I'M this huge famous youtuber and do people want to be my friend because they want to like clout chase off of me or because they think I can make them famous or do they generally genuinely want to be my friend?

Heather McDonald (64:29)

Yeah. Now you said also in the book, which I thought was really interesting, is, you know, most people and like I was constantly talking about, you know, well, with, with the Coogan law, there's laws where you're supposed to definitely give pay, put your kids money when they're on a TV show into an account. I've also said it's a very hard thing to keep track of. A check comes in for $800, the family easily can cash it and keep it for themselves. Now the kid is 30, are they really going to track back 15 years? Where's my 800 bucks? So it is a law. But you know, I know there's a couple states now that are trying to do that for the money that an influencer makes for their kid if they're all doing a ad together. So we've talked about that. But what you said was it's really about them being bribed with something else to do the act that they need to get the scene done.

Tessa Latifi (65:21)

Yeah. So I talked to a few different family influencers for this chapter who told me that their worry is not that kids are not getting paid, but it's that they're getting paid in the form of bribes. And so these laws really don't touch that because if you're, if you're still paying your child, like you're technically abiding by the law. But if it's bribery where, like one of the family vloggers in my book told me, I used to give my kids a thousand dollars each for a 30 second video because, you know, if you're making tens of thousands of dollars off the video or more, then it's like, what's a thousand dollars? You know, a few times, like it's not a big deal. But it's like that I thought was really interesting because advocates really talk about we need to make sure these kids are paid. But what this family blogger told me is they are getting paid, but it's bribery. And so then where does that leave us?

Heather McDonald (66:10)

Well, they don't have free will. And it's like there were laws, you know, made in the early 1900s or whatever it was in the Industrial revolution time where they said kids couldn't work in the factories. You know, that's when child labor laws. But entertainment has always been the one place that kids can work. Yeah, we allow on actors and on sets and all these other things, and now this. So my point is, they don't have the same right to say, no, I don't want to work today, and I'm a child and you can't make me, Mom, I don't want to dance around and do the video.

Tessa Latifi (66:51)

It's also really complicated because I think it's difficult as a child to go against your parents in any way, you know, and so let's say your parent is an influencer parent, and they love the work that you do, and you realize that you're making a lot of money and you live in a beautiful house and they have a beautiful car. And like, one of the young women that I talked to, Claire, she told me that she told her dad once, I don't want to do YouTube anymore. And he said, okay, that's fine, but we're gonna have to move out of our house. Mom and I are gonna have to go back to work, and there's gonna be no money left over for nice things. And so it's like, are you really listening to your kid when they're telling you that, or are you guilting that?

Heather McDonald (67:26)

That's what I'm saying. It's a truly a hamster wheel. Because now, well, you know, what are we going to do? Like, we're. We're in. So it's like. I mean, it's. It's just such a slippery slope. I mean, what. What. How has people's views been affected? Of the few moms that have said, I'm going to honor this situation, I'm going to give my child some privacy. I'm not going to feature them getting their first period or when they have the flu or even their birthday party. Like, what happens to that person? Do they still make money?

Tessa Latifi (68:05)

So it depends. If they're a huge creator, they oftentimes can withstand that and kind of like change their content, but they're not making as much money. Because I talk in the book about these. These creators who don't show their kids, they'll apply for brand deals, and the brand deals will be like, okay, but you have to put your kids in diapers and show, you know, this new diaper, whatever. And the creator's. I'm not doing that. And then, you know, the brand passes because they want the child to be in it, because we know that Content with Children does better. And so sometimes they can continue their career, but they're definitely not making as much money as they would, maybe even by half as. As they would if they still showed their kids.

Heather McDonald (68:45)

Right. And then I wonder if that. There's a moment where that woman turns around. We thought Mommy Dearest was bad, you know, that movie, but, you know, at least the kid didn't. There was a scene in Mommy Dearest that's like we were supposed to feel sorry for the girl because they were taking one professional photo as a family.

Tessa Latifi (69:02)

Yeah.

Heather McDonald (69:03)

I mean, she was being mean to her and she was physically abusing her and everything. But when you compare it to what a modern day Mommy Dearest movie could be, which I'm sure someone's working on it, you know, about an influence. Like, even if someone did try to do the right thing, and then the kid is being a bratty kid. Like, we all have kids that are ungrateful and they don't get it. Cause they're little. And you're like, you little shit. I could have been making twice this amount. But no, I tried to respect your privacy, and now you are not even doing well in school. So you're not gonna get a regular job anyway. Cause you're a dumb ass. Like, you don't know, like, what someone could say to their kid, I'm dead. No.

Tessa Latifi (69:44)

It's so true. And I think about that, like, how difficult it would be to get a child to do what you want them to do. I mean, like, my daughter's a toddler, but you see this content of other toddlers on Instagram, and they're perfectly. Their hair is perfect and, you know, their matching outfit. And like, this morning, my daughter went to the park in a pajama shirt because she didn't want to change. And I was just like, okay, whatever. It doesn't really matter. Like, it's a shirt. It doesn't really matter. But, like, if I were a mom influencer, how would I convince her, you know? Or how would I make her do what I needed her to do?

Heather McDonald (70:14)

But at that age, you know, that's them asserting themselves. And if you constantly deny them, you know, wearing cowboy boots to school or, you know, my sons, it was always. The biggest thing is, we don't need a jacket. We don't need a jacket.

Tessa Latifi (70:29)

Yes.

Heather McDonald (70:29)

We don't need a. And I. I'd be like, all right. And then I would just pack the jackets. And then when they're shivering, I'd be like, guess what? I actually have a jacket for you. Okay, thank you. But I get it. It's because, you know, they're growing up and they're like, you don't know Everything. Mom, it's sunny now. And I'm like, I know it's sunny now, but we're gonna be out for five hours.

Tessa Latifi (70:49)

Yeah, guess what? It's gonna be.

Heather McDonald (70:51)

And I'm always just like. And I will be like, I've lived on this life on this earth a little longer than you.

Tessa Latifi (70:56)

Yeah, I'm gonna start using that.

Heather McDonald (70:58)

But they won't.

Tessa Latifi (70:59)

No, they won't. I mean, this morning I was just like, you cannot go to the park in a pajama shirt. And then I was like, who really cares? But I do think about, like, if I had to put her in a perfect outfit and get her hair done and do whatever and have her pose perfectly, like, what would that look like? You know, how could I get a toddler to do that?

Heather McDonald (71:16)

I mean, it's just like the Toddlers and Tiara's days, those shows, and they had to put them all. And the girl just goes, I just wanna swim in, like the days in pool. And they're like, well, you can't because you have hair extensions and a flipper in your mouth. And, you know, we don't want you getting your makeup removed. But I have a four hour break. Well, too bad, because, you know, and we were fascinated by that show, you know, 15 years ago. Tell us a little bit about your interview that you did for Rolling Stone with, with Piper Raquel and her history and what she's doing now and what's so interesting about it.

Tessa Latifi (71:56)

So I talked to Piper Raquel, who is one of the main child influencers of the last 10 years, and she just turned 18. The really interesting thing about her, and I'm sure that most of your viewers have watched the Netflix documentary Bad Influence, Dark side of Kid Influencing that really showed the dark side of Piper's upbringing, allegedly. And she says that. That it wasn't true, that it wasn't an honest reflection of what she experienced. But the point is, with this and with the court case against her mother who was alleged to have abused other kids, other YouTube kids that Piper worked with, Piper was kind of blacklisted in the industry. Like, she. No one wanted to work with her. No one was giving her brand deals or sponsorships. And so when she turned after.

Heather McDonald (72:37)

After the doc, or before the doc.

Tessa Latifi (72:41)

So after. So before the doc.

Heather McDonald (72:43)

Okay.

Tessa Latifi (72:44)

And then even more after the doc. But basically when the lawsuit came out, which was a few years before, against her mother. Against her mother.

Heather McDonald (72:52)

Right, from the other kids that were, like, doing the YouTube videos for free and being possibly manipulated or sexually exploited kind of. Yeah.

Tessa Latifi (73:01)

Right. And so people kind of blamed, I don't know, Piper was kind of caught up in her mom's downfall. People didn't want to work with her. And as she approached 18, there were lots of rumors about like, well, is she going to join OnlyFans? Because she, she did post a lot of salacious content, even like on Instagram and TikTok. And then a few months after she turned 18, she joined OnlyFans and she says that she made $2.9 million in the first few days.

Heather McDonald (73:29)

Is it continuing to roll in like that?

Tessa Latifi (73:31)

You know, I'm not sure. It seems very popular. Like, she is definitely up there on, on the Only fans ranking, but I'm not sure exactly how much.

Heather McDonald (73:41)

Right. And then like, I saw a clip of a TMZ podcast interview that she did with this other girl that's she's, you know, collaborating with or whatever, and they show a clip of her being like, and then I was dying and it's one girl pouring like a jug of milk like down her, her throat, but it goes on her boobs. I was. And the comments were like, we don't need to see this. Like, we don't need. It's fine, make your money. But like, and I get it because it's a cycle and TMZ will get more views off that clip or that podcast than you know, and I also see, like, would you turn down $2.9 million? Like, and maybe just especially as an

Tessa Latifi (74:24)

18 year old, right.

Heather McDonald (74:25)

Back in the day, you know, there were strippers and it was always like, well, I'm going to strip to put myself through school and once I get to a certain age, then I can quit stripping or whatever. And this is, you know, or the, the dark side of porn. And you know, those people went to become realtors and then the market dropped. They had to go back to porn. Like, I mean, it's, it's at least they're not having to. At least they have their own say in what they're doing. You know, at least they're not going to some gross house in the Valley and, you know, making a one time payment and having no say. And their images can be shared forever. So, like, I do think the model is a million times better.

Tessa Latifi (75:08)

Totally.

Heather McDonald (75:09)

But it also is like, oh, well, I guess you never will experience whatever what other people experience. But I mean, I know it is happy that you think she's happy.

Tessa Latifi (75:21)

She seems happy. I think it's just difficult for me to like talk to her and talk about this because she, she is 18, but she's so young. I mean, the things that I thought I knew at 18 that I don't believe in now at 32 are just so drastically different. And so I think it's difficult when you're making these decisions that are kind of permanent. Like, you can get off OnlyFans, but you can never not be. Not have been on OnlyFans. You know what I mean? Like, that content will always be out there.

Heather McDonald (75:50)

Yeah. And I just kind of wonder, like, you know, like, anything. Like, what. What are your, you know, romantic relationships like?

Tessa Latifi (75:58)

Yeah, I can't imagine.

Heather McDonald (75:59)

You know, it's one thing to join when you're, whatever, 28 and another to join when you're 18, you know? Yeah. I find that very interesting. Also, last thing was, I thought the article, the interview. Sorry, the chapter in your book about when fans become. I don't know how you. What was the title of that chapter? Like?

Tessa Latifi (76:23)

What? I don't. I don't remember.

Heather McDonald (76:24)

Okay. Well, it was like, When Fans Become Haters.

Tessa Latifi (76:27)

When Love Becomes Hate. Parasocial Relationships and the Rise of Snark Communities. Yeah.

Heather McDonald (76:32)

Yeah. And I. I do think that's so interesting, because I never knew that existed until I found mine.

Tessa Latifi (76:41)

I was gonna say, have you. I. I haven't looked at yours. How is it Big? Is it. What is it like?

Heather McDonald (76:46)

I mean, just like your people. I don't want to give it a lot. And what is interesting, What I thought was really interesting, and it's really helpful. Everyone should read that chapter that might have one of those. Because I have tried to tell people that are suffering from it, and I literally will have a friend that's, you know, maybe a couple years behind me on the rise of what we do, and they discover their thing, and I see them spiraling. I see them giving it attention. I see them were defending themselves, making videos about it, because it's like, in your head, it's like the whole world is saying this. And so I think it's a very, like, interesting, helpful chapter of how some of the people that you interviewed talked about how hurtful and everything it could be, which I agree. But then also how the only way, which is what I have said, the only way to continue to do what you're doing when this exists is, which I've said, is to treat it like if you were a drug addict and that's heroin, and you can never touch it again.

Tessa Latifi (78:00)

Right.

Heather McDonald (78:01)

And it is tempting sometimes I can't imagine when you have your phone and you're like. Because someone said, like, what if Your whole life before this time, you'd go to school and you'd find out two of your best friends were talking about you, and you're like, sure. What do you mean? What did they say? Like, you can go and see that these people that are still your fans because they're spending the time and they're still intrigued.

Tessa Latifi (78:23)

They are. They are fans. They're anti fans, but they're fans.

Heather McDonald (78:27)

Yeah. And, you know, and there's been people that have really gone off the deep end. And I remember there was this one influencer that someone sent me a thing about because they're like. Because I've talked about this before and I felt so badly for her. She was. Was doing really well. She was, like, known for, like, being curvy and having a cute husband. And they would go and go to a city and try all these restaurants and everything. And the group had, in her opinion, gotten to a place where they were going to jeopardize this trip for her and calling restaurants and making up lies and. Or. Or going to the restaurants and, you know, doing 101 star Yelp review reviews and all this other. So you're fucking up the restaurant, fucking up her career. And I have said, like, the doc I really want is exploring the person that doesn't just lurk on it and read it, because maybe they knew the girl in high school and they're just kind of like, enjoying reading the hate and they kind of enjoy dancing on the grave. But the person that actively goes from being a fan to then spending hours a week to try to like, like, take their. Their deals away and take money out of their mouth. And what were you. What did you find in that?

Tessa Latifi (79:47)

You know, I found that most of the snarkers that I talked to were former fans of the people that they were snarking about. So that's what fascinated me is like, that's why the chapter is called From Love to Hate, is because these people, they. It's really interesting because they say they hate the people that they're snarking on. But, like, I was talking to my mom about it. My mom was like, if I hate something, I just don't pay any attention to it. I don't talk about it. I don't put my eff into it. But these people are spending, like you said, sometimes hours per day or per week talking about these people and trying to change their lives for the worse. And so it's like, I don't know that you can really say that you're a hater. Like, you are a fan of some sort. Like, that is fan behavior.

Heather McDonald (80:26)

What I thought was interesting when you're talking about some of the secret snorkers is they're like, but we're calling them out on, you know, if they were

Tessa Latifi (80:35)

wrong or there's a moral high ground.

Heather McDonald (80:38)

That's a moral high ground. Like, we are not gonna allow this to happen. Like, the same thing. I'm like, you know, I found. I mean, you know, I found that, you know, in 2008, on an interview, she mispronounced a word. What a fucking idiot. And like, you know, and then also finding their address before they even closed on a house. Things like that. And I always just wonder if. If you're that person and you're even, like, listening to this right now, like, does it make you feel good or does it make you feel like a loser who needs to get help yourself? You know what I mean? Yeah.

Tessa Latifi (81:20)

I can't imagine it feels good to spend all that time tearing someone else

Heather McDonald (81:23)

down and then going to the group. It's almost like, you know, I've said, and people are gonna get real mad when I say this, but I don't care. I always find it crazy when someone gets caught for child porn because they were sharing it with other people. And I'm like, why would you. Why. I would think that if you're that sick of a fuck, you would keep it to yourself.

Tessa Latifi (81:47)

Right?

Heather McDonald (81:48)

Why would. It's something that. I think by sharing it, it, like, normal, it makes them feel more normal. That they're not the only ones that are saying these cruel, mean things about somebody. In their case, I'm saying the same reason someone shares something as dark as that. Obviously this isn't that, but, like, wanting to find this camaraderie of join and. But you know what? I. I'm like, it is there. It's contained over there.

Tessa Latifi (82:21)

Yeah.

Heather McDonald (82:21)

You don't have to look at it. You don't have to participate in it. And, you know, someone would argue, like, it's a level of fame, like, you should be proud that you have one. Because if you don't have one, yeah, why don't you have one?

Tessa Latifi (82:38)

Big of a deal.

Heather McDonald (82:38)

Yeah, yeah. You've been influencing for years. Or you have a podcast for years. Like, why don't you have one? So I think once you get to that other side, instead of going, but that's not true. I didn't do that, or I didn't say that, or I don't feel that way. Forget it. Like, that is the most powerful thing and then the other thing, go, have your fun. Go screen grab every story and say, this outfit didn't look good or look at her wrinkly elbow. I mean, but when you look at it and read it yourself, I don't care how much of the Kardashian playlist that you have in your head of putting blinders on. Chloe used to get bothered. Kim didn't. Most people, if they even see,

Tessa Latifi (83:28)

will

Heather McDonald (83:28)

seep in and affect their mood, their day, their week. It will be bad.

Tessa Latifi (83:35)

I see how it couldn't. I mean, thank. Knock on wood. I shouldn't even say it out loud, but I don't have one. And I'm like, I don't know how you would be able to not look at it, or if you did look at it, how you would be able to not not take it in. But I think you're totally right that, like, if you have that many fans, you're gonna have haters. And it is kind of like a badge of honor.

Heather McDonald (83:55)

Yeah. I mean, maybe if people realize that on both ends, it. It will just change. Like, you know, I would just hate for anyone to get into a place of real darkness because of some strangers, you know, But. But like I said, sometimes it could go another level where it can, like, affect friendships, relationships, business partnerships.

Tessa Latifi (84:18)

Yeah.

Heather McDonald (84:18)

And that is. That's also just being a public person putting it out there, you know?

Tessa Latifi (84:22)

Yeah, it is totally.

Heather McDonald (84:24)

Well, the book is so good. Like, follow and subscribe. Great title. You've really done your research. It's really interesting. I also think it's really fun if you are someone that does follow all these people. You do give all the Instagram accounts and where they are, and it made me want to, like, look up and kind of go, oh, that is. You know. And you might find some people that you end up really, you know, finding interesting or fun or you might be hopping over to the start group.

Tessa Latifi (84:52)

Yeah, you might be.

Heather McDonald (84:53)

Who knows? I don't know. But. So tell everybody when it comes out and how they can pre order and all that.

Tessa Latifi (85:01)

Yeah, the book comes out on April 7th. You can pre order it now, wherever you get your books. And you can find me online everywhere at High for Tessa H I F O R T E S A And I cannot wait for you guys to read it. It is so juicy. I think you're going to be astonished at the things that I found.

Heather McDonald (85:19)

Yes. And we kept a lot we didn't get into. So we read the book and we'll do another one and talk about it once everyone's bought the books and you're a number one best New York wrestling author. God willing. Thank you so much for coming on.

Tessa Latifi (85:34)

Yeah, thank you for having me. It's tax season, and at LifeLock, we

Heather McDonald (85:39)

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Tessa Latifi (85:41)

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Heather McDonald (85:42)

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Tessa Latifi (85:48)

Now here's another big number. 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it. Guaranteed.

Heather McDonald (85:57)

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Every day there's a new headline, a new highlight, a new moment you've got to see for yourself. That's why I stay locked in with the Bleacher Report app. For me, it's about staying connected to my sports. I could fall the teams I care about. Get real time scores, breaking news and highlights all in one place. Download the Bleacher Report app today so you never miss a moment.