Vanderpump Rules and Co-parenting in Hollywood

Summary

Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald: Episode Summary Episode Title: Vanderpump Rules and Co-parenting in Hollywood
Release Date: November 28, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald, Heather delves into the exciting news about the revival of the popular reality show Vanderpump Rules with an all-new cast. Following this, Heather engages in a profound conversation with co-parent and guest Gage Edward, alongside renowned physician and author Dr. Drew Pinsky, exploring the complexities of co-parenting in Hollywood, especially when dealing with narcissistic personalities.

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Revival of Vanderpump Rules with a New Cast

Heather kicks off the episode by discussing the much-anticipated return of Vanderpump Rules, highlighting the introduction of a fresh cast while retaining beloved figures like James Kennedy, Ariana, Lala, and Sheena. She emphasizes the producers' strategic move to blend new personalities with existing friends to maintain the show's dynamic.

• Heather McDonald (03:15): "I think this is a genius move on the side of the producers because so many of them are friends with the Valley cast."

Heather also touches upon the emotional response from long-time fans and former cast members celebrating the show's renewal, ensuring that the transition doesn't leave fans feeling alienated.

• Heather McDonald (05:45): "We like their new friends that we are not familiar with. Kristin Doute just announced she's pregnant. She's engaged and she's pregnant. And good for Kristin Doute."

She speculates on future storylines, anticipating juicy developments given the history of dramatic relationships on the show, such as the breakup between Jax and Britney.

• Heather McDonald (08:30): "Jax and Britney have broken up. That's going to be very juicy to watch. It's sad, but it's going to be super intriguing."

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Co-parenting in Hollywood: A Discussion on Narcissism

Gage Edward's Experience

Transitioning from the show discussion, Heather introduces Gage Edward, a co-parent navigating the challenges of raising a child amidst a turbulent break-up. Their conversation delves deep into the personal struggles Gage has faced, highlighting his prolonged relationship marked by narcissistic behaviors from his ex-partner.

• Gage Edward (10:58): "I had been seeing him for probably four or five weeks. We were in a tough spot. I think a very transitional time."

Gage recounts the collapse of his decade-long relationship, emphasizing the manipulation and emotional abuse that plagued their co-parenting dynamic.

• Gage Edward (15:21): "I didn't want to be intimate anymore. Yeah, he spoke about that."

He shares the profound impact this environment has had on his daughter, expressing concerns about her witnessing unhealthy relationship patterns.

• Gage Edward (21:38): "She's watching to see it. So I feel comfortable in how she is in this environment that she's learning the social skills."

Dr. Drew Pinsky's Insights

Dr. Drew Pinsky provides a clinical perspective on the behaviors exhibited by narcissistic individuals, explaining how traits like codependency and fear of abandonment can sabotage relationships.

• Dr. Drew Pinsky (17:20): "People speaking about narcissism and how many people are narcissistic. ... reality shows everywhere and how hard it might be if you are co-parenting with who you believe might have be a narcissist or at least have many of the traits."

He introduces concepts like splitting behaviors and narcissistic rage, elucidating how these patterns not only harm the individual but also those around them, especially children.

• Dr. Drew Pinsky (29:39): "Cluster B personality disorders. Right. Which are the narcissistic disorders. Borderline sociopath, narcissist."

Dr. Drew also touches upon the societal rise in narcissistic traits, attributing it to factors like social media and deficiencies in childhood care.

• Dr. Drew Pinsky (29:47): "Deficiencies in childhood. And maybe because everybody's working and everybody's busy... television and social media."

Key Takeaways

• Empathy and Kindness: Both Gage and Dr. Drew emphasize the importance of empathy and kindness in healing and co-parenting situations.

  • Gage Edward (69:56): "People should, in the world today look at a little bit more kindness and a little bit more empathy."

  • Dr. Drew Pinsky (67:35): "You need to set boundaries and ask for your needs to get met and ask for kindness."

• Impact on Children: The episode underscores the detrimental effects that high-conflict co-parenting can have on children, shaping their perceptions and future relationships.

  • Gage Edward (45:43): "That's gonna damage the child."

  • Dr. Drew Pinsky (57:19): "The audience thinks they really know everyone in this mix and they don't."

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Conclusion

Heather McDonald's episode intertwines the glamour of reality TV with the stark realities of personal relationships, particularly highlighting the struggles of co-parenting amid narcissistic abuse. Through the candid conversation with Gage Edward and Dr. Drew Pinsky, listeners gain valuable insights into recognizing and addressing toxic relationship dynamics, emphasizing the paramount importance of empathy, boundaries, and prioritizing children's well-being.

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Notable Quotes

• Heather McDonald (07:20): "This is what we have complained about, that it has changed. They're not still waiters."

• Gage Edward (15:47): "It's now being shared on his show... building a career off of talking shit about me."

• Dr. Drew Pinsky (31:03): "One of the things that has happened in the last 50 years is we've all developed narcissistic traits. They just are pervasive."

• Heather McDonald (66:02): "Is there anything that they could do or study or get to a place so that they could have pleasant days and not the kind of anxiety that might come with being with a partner like this."

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of Heather McDonald's discussion on the revival of Vanderpump Rules and the intricate dynamics of co-parenting in Hollywood, enriched with expert insights and personal testimonies.

Transcript

[Heather McDonald]

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[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

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[Heather McDonald]

All about reconnecting from festive gatherings to friends to special moments. And we want to have that opportunity to dress up and do our makeup and our hair, which you really want it to look the best. And you can do that with Nutrafol. The cold, dry air of the winter can be unforgiving, but your hair doesn't have to suffer. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our juicy scoopers $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. When you go to nutrafol.com and enter the promo code JUICYSCOOP, find out why over 4,500 healthcare professionals and stylists recommend Nutraful for healthier hair. Heather McDonald has got the juices. Scoop when you're on the road. When you're on the Juicy Scoop is.

[Gage Edward]

The show to know.

[Heather McDonald]

She talks Hollywood tales, her real life Mr. Segment, serial data and serial sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast.

[Gage Edward]

Listen in. Listen up.

[Heather McDonald]

Woo woo. Heather McDonald, juicy scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Happy Thanksgiving. Okay, there's some hot topic update. I'm sure you know what I'm going to get into and then I have a great interview. I'm excited to share with all of you. So first of all, you've now heard the news. Maybe you haven't. That's why you're here on Juicy Scoop. Vanderpump announced that it is coming back but with an all new cast. Everybody, nobody that we know. I had heard so many things leading up to this. I had heard that they were meeting with new people. I was at Vanderpump and a bartender told me I'm auditioning for it. I also heard that they were doing filming with new people but with James Kennedy. However, James Kennedy along with Ariana and Lala and Sheena. And many people posted within hours of the news that they are grateful for Vanderpump Rules. They're excited for the next chapter. They had slideshows of their favorite photos and videos from the last decade or however long they were on. I may or may not have knowledge that this was coming and I think that was a fair thing to do as producers to let these icons of Vanderpump Rules know that this announcement was coming so that they could not be blindsided. Gather their photos and whatever together so that their announcement can be the way they want it to be. And so this will be interesting. I mean, this is what we have complained about, that it has changed. They're not still waiters. A lot of people say how we don't like the new Rooney. How could the new Vanderpump keep our interest? I think this is a genius move on the side of the producers because so many of them are friends with the Valley cast. Jax and Britney have broken up. That's going to be very juicy to watch. It's sad, but it's going to be super intriguing. People like these shows because they can relate. They can relate to parenting, they can relate to co parenting, they can relate to breakups and relationships changing. And the Valley has been so open and honest about that. We like their new friends that we are not familiar with. Kristin Doute just announced she's pregnant. She's engaged and she's pregnant. And good for Kristin Doute. She was fired along with Stassi and Jackson, Britney a few years ago. Stassi's off doing great on her own, doing her own thing. She's got her own show coming out. She's going to be on the Vanderpump Villa as well. And then now Kristen is really on the show that is probably the most anticipated Bravo show this year, the Valley. And Britney and Stassi and Lala are really great friends. They're mom friends as well as being old friends. Their kids go to the same school. There's going to be activities and things. I'm sure they're making many appearances also. This means for the Valley producers that they're not probably gonna be playing hardball about, hey, Tom Schwartz, wanna come to this party over at Jack's condo or do you wanna come to Cruz's fourth birthday party? We'll pay you this amount. They wanna stay in it and they really are friends. Schwartz's condo is very close to Jack's, which is very close in the Valley to his restaurant and also to Britney and Cruz's house now. So I think it was a brilliant move on the producers. I don't think they were, you know, they knew this was going to be an issue. We saw the way it ended. We knew that real friendships were not what they once were. Many of these players were not hanging out with each other anymore and really didn't want to like Ariana and Tom Sandoval. So I think we're going to see many of them make appearances. And then as that show grows, it could really evolve into something really juicy. In the meantime, I wish them all the best with all their endeavors. You know, they are all famous. They all have huge followings and different businesses and streams of income. So it will be a really interesting thing to see what happens with Bravo because as I said, it looks like that mini fan fest was not a huge hit. And will BravoCon happen in September or next year? Whenever? Will it happen? Will it happen in Vegas? If we don't have the. If we don't have New Jersey happening with those icons so that we can actually be interested in the panels. If they just come on and tell about the old shit that they've been saying at every city winery and a live show, I don't think that's that interesting. It's only gonna be interesting because we're watching it. So if we don't have New Jersey to talk about, the OGs of Rony to talk about, I don't know, is there enough? And now the Vanderpump kids aren't gonna be there. I still call them kids. And if they're only one season in, I don't know how super interested we're gonna be. I mean, it took us years to get to know the cast. But as far as the new cast, I wish them the best. I think this is kind of exciting. What made Vanderpump so relatable was these people were real friends. They were really struggling actors. They said yes to this reality show, hoping that it would lead to bigger things. And you know what it did? It really did. And. But that's what the LA life was like 15 years ago. Does it still reflect that with social media and ways for people to instantly kind of become famous via TikTok or Instagram? I don't know. But I think it's a really smart move. And for the production company of both the Valley and Vanderpump Rules and for Lisa Vanderpump. And so let's see, you know, let's see what happens. You know, DJ DJ James Kennedy has A huge career, already doing really well with DJing. So there could be almost little mini reality shows if not on TV, on different, you know, YouTube or whatever where we really, where these people kind of put their own production companies together and follow their own lives and their own friends. And so I'm really, I'm excited to see where all of this goes. All right, you guys, I want to remind you that a lot of people will say, gosh, you know, I wish I could listen to Juicy Scoop without ads. You can if you're listening to this on Apple. That is what the Apple subscription is for. You will get all the Tuesday and Thursday shows ad free as well as all of the back episodes of the Tuesdays and Thursday show. That is different. Apple subscription offers you that and Patreon offers you more of a community in talking and sharing, which is even going to get bigger. So those are the, those are the differences and a lot of people belong to both for those reasons. So I wanted to explain that. And you just do that Apple subscription, you'll get this whole thing ad free. And now I am going to share something that was shared on my Friday paid platform, which I will share now. It got a lot of conversation going. It was really positive for the two interview guests that were part of it, Dr. Drew and Gage Edward. And people could relate to it as far as co parenting, past relationships, moving forward, healing oneself. But also when there's been many years of where you've been portrayed or discussed on a big public platform and you haven't responded until now, I think that was really important and I think it's going really well. And you probably will have some questions after this. And I've been receiving the questions since I posted it on Friday's Patreon and I will be addressing those questions and curiosities on tomorrow's Patreon, which you can [e-mail] so there you go. Have a great Thanksgiving. And here is my interview with Dr. Drupinski and Gage Edward. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, this is going to be a real juicy one. It's something that we've talked a lot about on the show. You hear a lot of people talk about narcissism and how many people are narcissistic. We hear they talk about it on reality shows everywhere and, and also how hard it might be if you are co parenting with who you believe might have be a narcissist or at least have many of the traits. So I am here with my friend of 15 years, Gage Edwards, who he is a father and he is, you know, co parenting, which anyone knows is never even the best situation. It's not necessarily easy. And then we're also here with my dear friend Dr. Drew, who has written a book on narcissism. That book came out about 15 years ago too, right?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yeah, about that. We saw it coming.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Yeah. So what was it called? What is it called?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It was called the Mirror Effect, but it was built. Do you know how that happened, that book? We did research on celebrities. It was the only published research in history. All there was all this speculation about celebrities and narcissism. No one had ever studied them. Well, because a celebrity came on our radio show every night. We gave them a narcissistic inventory for like 250 of them. And we were able to document that, lo and behold, people that are musicians and comedians and particularly reality show participants, high, high levels of narcissism.

[Heather McDonald]

Very interesting. Okay, so Gage, tell us a little bit about your background and why this definitely pertains to what Dr. Drew wrote about.

[Gage Edward]

Well, I think that in the last few years, you know, so I was in a relationship for over a decade. At eight years, we had our daughter, who's now eight years old. Two years after she was born, the relationship just disintegrated. And in the five years of sort of the aftermath of that decade long, highly public relationship, there was a lot of obviously processing, trying to. I had also run his business, you know, created multiple streams of income together, product lines, all of these things. We were completely enmeshed and was reliant on that. And when the relationship abruptly ended one night, it took a couple more months of business not working out together, obviously in hindsight. And it just got to a breaking point where that also wouldn't work. So then I was thrust into the last five years of recreating who I was at 33, starting over, fighting for custody. She had lived for her two years in our family home. And then, you know, it was the trying to sort it out without legal intervention and then, you know, defending myself through all of that. I think that there were two key elements in the failure of that decade long relationship. And she was, she was the impetus to one of them because it was highly documented and shown on TV and all of it. And I think I was a little bit blind and disoriented in that I didn't see what was going on. And to be fair, I don't think that he changed. I think I changed. And I think that's what led to the end of the relationship. Because suddenly the way I was spoken to daily, the way things were handled, all of which were on a TV show already, like, it's not like, oh, my gosh, that just something morphed and changed. It wasn't that. It was that now there were a set of eyes. And both of you as parents, you know, your kids are mimicking all behavior. They're mimicking how you speak, all of it.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I'm gonna. I'm gonna interrupt you because there's already a lot going on. A lot, a lot.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, I just wanna say one thing about the TV show, which still you can watch for free on all these streamers or you buy the streamers.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And I don't know anything about anything.

[Heather McDonald]

So this.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I come as a virgin, so I'll just tell you.

[Heather McDonald]

So his ex partner was on a TV show for many, many years.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

From a Juicy Scoob standpoint, isn't it crazy how no relationships ever survive reality cameras?

[Heather McDonald]

It doesn't.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It's just crazy.

[Heather McDonald]

It really doesn't.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And part of what you were saying made me think, not only are you seeing things through the eyes of your daughter, but you're literally seeing things as they occur on tv. Because it's that reliving and revivifying of things that I hear people talk about when their relationships fall apart because of tv. It's like, oh, we dealt with that a long time ago. And here it is back again, and I can't deny it anymore.

[Heather McDonald]

And just one of the scenes that I recall from the show after their daughter was born was, you know, his ex partner was getting very heated about something, which is what made him a memorable reality show character.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Always, right? Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And. But this is your partner and your co parent and everything. And he's speaking to Gage and he's like, if you messed up this one thing, like, and what is the point of having you? What is the value of having you? And I was like, I don't remember.

[Gage Edward]

It wasn't just that. It was that if I have people taking care of our daughter and you're not doing this in the business, what is your value to me?

[Heather McDonald]

Yes, it was.

[Gage Edward]

And that was as the parent of, I don't know, she's probably six or nine somewhere months old at this point, where it's just like, you know, you asked me before about that and it's like, what did you think in that moment? And I thought in that moment was, this is. I'm already here mentally, I'm already thinking this, but I've got cameras on Me. And these are parts of the end. This is. This won't. This isn't sustainable.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It's actually a really heartbreaking story.

[Gage Edward]

It's terrible because it's also something she.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Can then go, I feel what he's feeling. It's like, oh, my goodness.

[Heather McDonald]

I also feel, because this was, you know, we really hadn't seen a relationship between two men raising a daughter, which I thought is great. Why I saw that and why it's been in my head for many years is because the audience of your show and his subsequent show, which is just, you know, a radio show with video component is. The audience is, again, predominantly female. And it doesn't seem like anybody sees how hypocritical that is. If we saw a man speaking to his partner who is a woman, who is the main caregiver of the child, oh, boy, we would be horrified. Like, we watch a housewife, and the guy's like, get your own coffee. And that guy is crucified, divorced, that. You know, whatever. And so I think that's like an interesting element of too. Of just like, in the perception of watching these people's lives for entertainment. Sitting back and being like, oh, I never really thought of it like that. And how unfair that is.

[Gage Edward]

Oh. What I have thought is that with the people that are in our lives now, my relationship now are two kids, that kind of personality and the way that is sort of spoken to me indirectly through another means of media. I would never have someone like that in my life. You would not be allowed to be myself.

[Heather McDonald]

Analysis.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I need a lot more information, and some of you may not be able to give me because I don't want you to divulge anything that would hurt anybody or be uncomfortable for you or anything. But you did say that one night it collapsed. Was there a discovery or something?

[Gage Edward]

There was. I had started seeing a therapist. And a therapist that in particular works with gay men and was referred by another gay friend. Couple that had gone through some stuff. And I had been seeing him for probably four or five weeks. We were in a tough spot. I think a very transitional time, that the relationship was morphing into something that I also was not okay with. And so I started seeing a therapist. Sort of talk through.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Now, you understand that's vague, right?

[Gage Edward]

What's vague?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It was morphing into something I was not.

[Gage Edward]

It just wasn't the. It wasn't the. It wasn't what I signed up for. It was. On a personal level.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

You're using code. I think I understand the code. I don't know if I want to out the code.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah, but your code is probably, you know.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Right, but that's just another problem here too.

[Gage Edward]

Okay.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Right. More than just personality.

[Gage Edward]

Well, I don't know what that problem is, but I'll tell you.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Was there infidelity problem?

[Gage Edward]

I think that there was. It has been said yes or no.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Was that part of the collapse that.

[Heather McDonald]

Night or was that where it might have led to?

[Gage Edward]

Yeah, I think that's like.

[Heather McDonald]

It wasn't your traditional family view of what you. The trajectory of your life.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Okay.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Similar to what you were raised in. And this was going in a path even though you're gay, going into a path that you were not.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

You didn't want.

[Gage Edward]

And, you know, it was said really loudly, after which I think.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And I don't know anything about anything.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah. But I think that it was said after, you know, very publicly, that a lot of people have the perception that I had cheated in this relationship.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Right.

[Gage Edward]

And I had not.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

What I see, what I hear from you is this extreme codependency. Right. And did your therapist put names to what you were struggling with? Did he or she tell you kind of how to understand or have you learned since?

[Gage Edward]

Well, what I had said is that I need basically a break. And we're in this for over 10.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Years because of mistreatment.

[Gage Edward]

Yes. And I needed to sort of back away for a second to get some perspective and clarity of I can't be pummeled and just constantly. And I, you know, to be honest, I didn't want to be intimate anymore. Yeah, he spoke about that. I didn't. My feeling was I don't like how this is going and I can't even become intimate with you, even though we've been together for a decade.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And by the way, you described your new friends in really interesting language that suggest actual intimacy. I don't mean physical intimacy. I mean emotional intimacy. Yes. So you for some reason had an intimacy problem. You were attracted to things that were not intimate but were intense.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Were dramatic and interesting and fun and all those things, but not intimate. And as things started unraveling, it was not working for you, and then it collapsed. Right. But you stayed together for six months.

[Gage Edward]

This all happened in the course of the final year.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Okay. But you were still together, working together, trying to.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah. Trying to make. We were intensely working together.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Were you trying to make things work or were you trying to get working.

[Gage Edward]

As in we physically worked together. A lot of people described it as it was a much better business relationship. And it was. Seemed Transactional.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Were you trying to unravel the. The.

[Gage Edward]

I was not.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

He was leaving.

[Gage Edward]

I felt like it was.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I don't want to out any stuff here, but. So what is it? So it's the sort of the mistreatment that we're talking about.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah. And I no longer felt, you know, what it really was is I no longer felt safe and I no longer felt protected in the physical relationship of it all. And then you compound that with now you've got a one and two year old not yet looking at you, but soaking everything up and learning language and learning body language and learning. My longer term fear was that I'm trying to teach you to be a strong, confident woman and she's going to look at me and be like, yeah, but what if the television show, for instance, continued, how do you tell me that I should be a strong, confident woman when he's saying what he says about you daily? And that's since continued for five years.

[Heather McDonald]

Which is a classic reason why a lot of women feel they have to leave once their child does get to a certain age.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

In real life or on tea?

[Heather McDonald]

No, in real life, like why women leave because they have that aha moment where they're like, how can I raise my daughter when she, when she sees what I'm putting up with or they're.

[Gage Edward]

Being treated or I have friends that got too deep, they realized it, they didn't do anything. And now the kids are 10 teens, whatever it is, and they're like, it's just a few more years to get them launched into college. But you know, I also wonder, seeing the effects of that, I can now see that in those, in those older kids that they have like, okay, and now do you notice who her boyfriend is, that daughter's boyfriend? Does it look a lot like your relationship? And it does.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And that's what people do, that's what humans do. They repeat the patterns of the past.

[Gage Edward]

So in a way, especially when they're.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Negative and traumatizing was the opposite of what you would think. But that's how we work as humans.

[Gage Edward]

And in a way I felt like at 2, if this does fall apart, it actually is kind of an ideal age. Because really what is her recollection memory of us being in the same house and now two houses anyways, so that's what, you know, sort of led to it. And where I felt like again, it just, it was, those set of eyes were an issue for me. And in the aftermath of five years later, I could not be the dad that I am today. In the same environment.

[Heather McDonald]

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[Gage Edward]

But in my home, it's it's actual playdates at our house. It's playdates out with other kids. It's. It's families that I respect. The women, the wives, the mothers, the husbands, their relationships. And I can watch where the husband will walk into a room at the end of a playdate in the evening and come up and kiss his wife. And she's peering around the corner watching this engagement.

[Heather McDonald]

Your daughter.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah. She's watching to see it. So I feel comfortable in how she is in this environment that she's learning the social, sort of the social skills, but also how to be treated to then notice when you're not being treated well. And, Heather, I told you this the other day, but one of the biggest things for me in being a parent, and I don't need. I'm not here to say, oh, my God, you're a great parent. You're not. I don't need the accolades. The one thing reality TV taught me was that you don't believe the good and you don't believe the bad. Because I'm probably never going to know you anyway. So you can say I'm the most handsome person. You can say I'm the ugliest person. I don't know you. You're not in my orbit. But what became kind of my thought process in parenting, and especially for having a daughter, is that I want you to be kind and respectful. Because to me, the education part, unless you're a doctor or you're gonna be an engineer, lawyer, your kindness and you just being a great human gets you real far in life.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Gage Edward]

And so if you're kind and respectful, you will attract that kind of person. I tell her this. She's only 8, but I tell her.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Did you stay in therapy after?

[Gage Edward]

I didn't. That therapist really didn't know my ex, but really didn't like him. And I was like, you know, I think this is about. And he said, my mother was a narcissist. And I see it. And I didn't fully process what he was saying then.

[Heather McDonald]

What, your mother?

[Gage Edward]

No, his.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, the therapist.

[Gage Edward]

And I was like, okay, we're talking.

[Heather McDonald]

And so that was the first time someone thought maybe your ex could be this correct.

[Gage Edward]

And I didn't. And it took me years later where I started to think, like, gosh, what he said, that's really interesting. Cause at the time, I. No, I don't know. But back to your original question. Sorry. The thing with parenting, just to wrap that up. And she's now noticing it with schoolmates, she's noticing that. So I thought, you know what? That lesson to me is so important. She's becoming such an interesting person that I couldn't have done that in that same environment. So I think that the benefit of this ending is that I am able to parent her how I would like to. And that's been good for her. Of course, to the end, what happened was to your question about what caused that night, the therapist said, you need space. I said, I do need space, and I'm not exiting this relationship, but I need space. And he said, you need to go in and tell him you're going to be staying in the guest room. You're going to be. You have space in the home to do that. Yes, I do. And I told him, I said, he's not going to like that. It's not going to go over well at all. And he said, well, then you have your answer. Because he said, what do you want to do? I said, I don't want to leave the relationship. I don't right now. I need to, like, step back. And as soon as I told him, get your shit, go to a hotel. And we, in 10 years had never done that.

[Heather McDonald]

And do you think it's because you asserted your stance for the first time and he felt the control was lost? And that's a question for you too, Drew. Like, why is it that, you know.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It makes me wonder. It's called Cluster B personality disorders. Right. Which are the narcissistic disorders. Borderline sociopath, narcissist. And let me just say, one of the things that has happened in the last 50 years is we've all developed narcissistic traits. The three of us have them. There just is pervasive. That's the pandemic.

[Heather McDonald]

And is that because everyone has an Instagram account, because everyone takes selfies, because everybody has narcissists.

[Gage Edward]

Is narcissism how we look at each in the mirror? Is it that we want to be pretty? Is it.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

No, no, no, no. It's deficiencies in childhood. And maybe because everybody's working and everybody's busy and kids are abandoned or left to caretaker whatever it is, to care.

[Heather McDonald]

For ourselves or go to daycare, which didn't really exist 50 years ago, is what you're saying.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And then also the television and the social media, I mean, it's just been one thing after another. So I watched it. When I started working at psychiatric hospital in 1985, there was not a lot of narcissism. By 92, only narcissists. And Cluster B was Being admitted to our hospital only. And from then on. So it just. It came in the late 80s. At the time, I thought, oh, it's because of all the abuse of the kids. Because there was a lot of sexual abuse, physical abuse, neglect, a ton after the 70s. The 70s perpetrated all over the place. But I think it was even more than that. So this trend has happened. It's happened worldwide and in cluster B. Some of those personalities have a deep preoccupation with abandonment. And so the fact that you said, I've got to move away felt like an abandonment. And he has to sabotage.

[Gage Edward]

And that's something that he's spoken a lot about. And a lot of times in an argument would be, well, you know, that's the fear of abandonment that I have.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

So that's. That moves his personality a certain direction. But a lot of people have that, and it can be. It's why people sabotage relationships. It's a fucking fear of abandonment is a mess. It ruins relationships all over the place, and it makes people volatile and dysregulated. It's a mess. So we're in that zone here.

[Gage Edward]

But I guess in that zone, what I've kind of noticed, it's almost like the person that I sense, you're gonna break up with me, so I'm just gonna jump the gun.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Exactly. Because they can't deal with the abandonment, so they'd rather sabotage than have you abandoned. It's just so they're in control of the lives.

[Gage Edward]

Right. But I also feel like sometimes there is an element where they also create chaos, because they can control the chaos. They can almost start. Whether it's a triangulation with people, this is something that has been witnessed by a lot of people in this five years that I'm watching it, and I'm like, it's very similar to this situation and that situation and all of that over the time that we were together, it keeps going. And when you step back away from it, I'm watching it. I bring these things up again to open up the conversation to people that may be going through this but not knowing it and not being aware, but also because there is our daughter in the middle of this too. And I'm wondering. And I'm starting to see ways that this is manifesting in her and some of her behavior that has become kind of interesting.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Okay, so I think you sort of talked about triangles and chaos, and I think you're talking about splitting behaviors. This one's all good, this one's all bad. Pit them against each Other.

[Gage Edward]

Yes, yes. I've watched that happen so many times with splitting behaviors.

[Heather McDonald]

But when you talk about splitting behaviors, you have. Can you give a hypothetical example? Because I don't really understand what you mean.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It comes from mom, I want an ice cream. You go, no, you just had ice cream three hours ago. No more ice cream. Dad, mom says I can have some ice cream. Is that okay? And by the way, she's really mad or something. Where pits two of you against each other to get your way.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, for a kid to get the way.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

But it starts in childhood.

[Heather McDonald]

Got it. Okay.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Called splitting. Mom, dad. And in early in life, we kind of can see things as all good and all bad.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

This is what's. I mean, look at what's in social media today. People freaking out. It's all bad. It's all good. That is pathological. Nothing is all good and all bad. Everything is sort of gradations. But children see things all good, all bad. Certain personality styles see things all good, all bad. The splitting behavior is sort of a way of. It's sort of what's going on inside of them. And it's also a way of getting their way, as you said, using the chaos, using the drama of the split. But what I want to tell you is you're seeing splitting behavior. How old is your daughter now?

[Gage Edward]

She's 8.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It's normal for 11 or 12 year old to start doing that stuff.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It's an adolescent thing.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Is she in puberty or pre puberty yet or anything? Okay. So be careful, you know, tell her to.

[Heather McDonald]

You know, I think that is very hard. And I've talked about on the show and I had it with my daughter Mackenzie, and I understand in California they really want to get Both parents like 50, 50, and. But it is. So if a parent can see that they're not losing any control as a relationship and know that it's just. I believe a lot talk to any kid that's like over 25 that had to live in two homes and they'll say, what? And you ask them what was the hardest part about your parents divorce. It wasn't like, oh, I wish they were together. It's like going from house to house, having the clothes, forgetting the book, da, da, da, da. And then really rich people will have two soccer uniforms and. And they will do all that and have three school uniforms. It's still hard. It still really is hard. And I almost feel like the old school way of, you know, every weekend or every other weekend and Wednesday nights and things like that. You know, is. I remember one of my friends, Jill Zarin, she said that they were supposed to share it, like more like 50, 50 with her daughter, who's now 32, Allie. And the husband said, I don't think this is working. Like I think that she should. And to this day, the three of them all work together, you know, and she's gotten remarried and blah, blah. And it's like. And the relationship did not suffer because the physical time was different. But I see that that's a trend and it's part of the legal system, especially in California, kind of starting with giving men more rights, which I agree with the traditional father role, but I do think it's very hard on a kid when they're that age.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I agree. Be aware of that. I agree with you, but I'm interested in your missing the signs, your denial.

[Gage Edward]

Your compass, my role.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Well, it's interesting because when we think about, we want to help other people see these things. That's something you could help folks with because that's a really common thing. When you idealize somebody else, when you subjugate your own feeling states, when you deny what's actually happening, when you minimize, when you compartmentalize. These are all strategies that people use.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah. And I obviously not aware of that at the time. And again, as I go back to being 23, starting this relationship, this was sort of a larger than life personality that suddenly had an interest in me also.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And so it fueled your narcissism.

[Gage Edward]

It ju. Maybe it did. And in this process, I've always thought, like, am I the narcissist? Like, am I the what, what out of this? Cause it is. I moved on. I have a great set of people. I have a great relationship.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

You have real relationships now.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah, yeah. And you said it, not me. But that's where true.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It's stable intimacy.

[Gage Edward]

Stable relationship.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Kind relationships use that word. Kindness is something that people look for when they come out of something like this.

[Gage Edward]

It's interesting because I went on a few dates with some pretty high profile people in the time, and I really didn't have a serious relationship until the one I'm in now, which started two years ago. So three years of just like surface level stuff. And I immediately picked up. I'm like, nope, not you. What do you think of my personality? Based on what you see on Instagram, what's your perception? Like, are you.

[Heather McDonald]

That's what they would ask you on the date.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yeah, this.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah. And I was like, you know, this is. Let's wrap up dinner and this Is, we're good. We don't need to talk.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Gage Edward]

But anyways. But so I started to notice those things. But in the last couple of years, I really thought, where was my headspace at to you? And again, there were good things that came from it. But Also, that was 10 years of my life. And I think that some people look at that like. I don't.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

But you made it work for 10 years.

[Gage Edward]

I made it work for 10 years. I learned a lot. But I think a lot of people probably look at it like I was robbed. And now I'm. Especially women. It's like, you get into your 40s, and I have friends that are like, those were my good years. I'm like, that's so crazy, because you have so much ahead of your time.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Like women saying that.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah. Like, I felt robbed in my 15 years or 20 years of marriage, and it's whatever. But in my case, what I felt like, I don't know, that my mom had full narcissistic tendencies. But what she did was, if there was an argument and I was a middle child, if there was an argument, she would shut down. Her way of communication was shut down. And I felt like I became. Looking back in childhood, I became the middle child that just. Is everyone okay? Is dad okay? Are you okay? Are you mad at my older brother? Why are you mad at him? Really getting into the mix of it to where now with my daughter, it's very easy for me to sink into that. Like, I'm just gonna shut down. Cause it's how I know how to communicate. I do not. I probably overly communicate. Anyways, all through childhood, I became that sort of like.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Caretaker. Peacemaker.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah, peacemaker more than.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Was your mom an alcoholic, too?

[Gage Edward]

No, she was not. And then I think at an early age when I met him, here's this magnetic personality. Very successful. Just sort of in awe a little bit. He was running famous. And fame.

[Heather McDonald]

And famous.

[Gage Edward]

The fame was, I think, a part of it. But it also was like, there was just. I come from an entrepreneurial family. This guy is just making stuff happen. He's hustling. He's been hustling. He's older than me. Wasn't anything I was attracted. Like, that wasn't what I was. I'd never dated anybody older. It was really my first real relationship was him. And so I realized that I felt like there was comfort. Cause very quickly what happened, we moved in pretty quick. We were completely together, you know. And then shortly into it, you start to get little things where you're Thrown into a little bit of disarray. And it's.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

These are the signs you were talking about. Yeah.

[Gage Edward]

And I think.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

What were the signs?

[Gage Edward]

I think the things I can talk to are probably more on the show that were on tv, where it's like, you're. You've done it.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Meaning you're comfortable talking about something that's already public.

[Gage Edward]

Yes, that was because also, at the end of the day, we still have a daughter together. And there's parts of it where it's like, I don't understand how you've said what you've said, because eventually I would assume she hears these things and I don't. Anyways, these are things she could watch about me in the aftermath of. This has been a true nightmare. But these are things she can go watch on TV and be like, oh, okay. But it is to the point of what you said, I am not sure what your value is yet. We're running a very successful, very successful business. And then you're saying this stuff just ripping me apart at my core. And those moments throw me into. And at that particular moment, we have a newborn daughter. We are for the first time, actually completely locked in for her life or the rest of our lives. We didn't really have that. I was never any ownership in the business. I was never any ownership of any of the real estate. None of it. And so you then say that. And I've. Now we've. Now we're not married, but that's a full. That's a life commitment. And now you're throwing us into this disarray where I'm just like. I'm just disoriented, and I'm, like, kind of blacked out. Like, what we're in this now? We're in this for. That argument probably happened at eight or nine years in and it's public, and I'm gonna have to relive it in three months.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

You know what he's talking about?

[Gage Edward]

The moment in.

[Heather McDonald]

No, the moment that I said in the car from the TV show that I always remember when I think about how cruel it was when he says, oh, that's what's the value of you. You know, if I have. If you didn't do this, and I have a nanny and, like, what's the point of even having you here?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I see. So you're just something to be exploited.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah. And I think early in the relationship, you know, I had my own family issues at that time. Didn't really have a friend group around. You don't talk about the Relationship outside of the relationship, which. Which I think is problematic when people don't. I think now talking. I have a friend that will listen to this, and she's like, dude, what the fuck? Like, what? All that was going on. And so I think whenever you start to isolate and get away from people that could be third party, to just say, hey, just so you know. That's weird. It's a weird situation. You don't have to be that. But I got into that, and then it would be just sort of blown up. There'd be an explosion of stuff. And then I'm like thinking, fuck, I'm like 25. I'm 26. Like, what? I am fully in this.

[Heather McDonald]

You're trapped.

[Gage Edward]

And it almost is. When I'm fully in that, how I felt was that it wasn't like, I guess it was kind of trapped, but it's. How are you that upset about something that I think now, is this all ending? Like, what happens to me? What happens to what I've thrown and invested all this time in? This whole.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Considerations kept you in longer than you should have been.

[Gage Edward]

Well, and then I found myself just figuring out how to make it work. And then I ended up.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Did you ever think about getting treatment as a couple?

[Gage Edward]

We did at times, but it was with his therapist, and it wasn't like a third party.

[Heather McDonald]

Was it ever on the show?

[Gage Edward]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

That's always great, right?

[Gage Edward]

Therapy on tv.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I mean, it's okay.

[Heather McDonald]

But then have the whole world then chime in too. Like, that's the other thing that I think, as someone who studied reality tv, because I love it and I talk about it so much. And that's why. Cause it's very fascinating, especially now with social media, whether it's just a podcast or radio show or TV show, people can get to you and write to you and say, like, you were wrong. You did this. You're, you know, really nasty things. And even if you don't want to go to that site, somehow it slips into the dm or someone who thinks they're doing you a favor says, oh, Gage, I just want you to know what was said about you today.

[Gage Edward]

And I have that. And I'm like, I didn't really need to know, but I like the recap. Yeah, I physically cannot listen, even if they send me clips, unless it's real bad. I can't even listen to it because it's.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

But no, that's all that. That's all abandonment stuff and narcissistic rage. Narcissistic rage is afoot.

[Gage Edward]

Everybody well, I've. I mean, there's a lot of that and what I don't understand in that and sort of doing this open therapy session with you, I don't understand how going back to what you said, a male female relationship with a mom, a wife that's now an ex wife, the berating that goes on about you should have never been on the birth certificate.

[Heather McDonald]

Because you're not the biological father.

[Gage Edward]

That's a common thread.

[Heather McDonald]

So he's not the biological father. His partner is. They got, you know, a surrogate and an egg donor.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Okay.

[Heather McDonald]

So that gets thrown a lot towards his direction and by fans.

[Gage Edward]

By a lot of fans.

[Heather McDonald]

By who are women, which I just find shocking. But I like it makes me embarrassed to be a woman that you would look at, you know, a gay father. And because he's not the biological dad, somehow think he's less than. Because you're such a fan of this.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

But I mean, but hang on. Am I doing the math correctly? But it's always going to be somebody in a gay relationship with a child.

[Heather McDonald]

Right? That's what I said.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

They're being homophobic.

[Heather McDonald]

That's what I'm saying. They think that they're being supportive of this gay rack because that's who they listen to every day. But they're not. They're. They're like, they. They're so. They're not even seeing how wrong and hypocritical it is.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

The worst thing the world is for a child to have a deep relationship with somebody and then it rupture and vanish. The child feels responsible for that.

[Gage Edward]

Correct.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I don't care who the biological father is. That's gonna damage the child.

[Gage Edward]

So, like that's. Of the multitude of things that have gone on, that has been a really strong narrative of. Even as of, I think last week, worst regret was putting him on the birth certificate. Like you had. This was ivf. Like there was not a discussion. We were both. We were both father one, father two in the state of California. Let me flip it around that I don't understand how you could treat someone and talk like that.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Is there a way that this relationship.

[Heather McDonald]

Could have worked and wait. And that has been said publicly by your ex. I wish I hadn't put him on the most.

[Gage Edward]

I mean, more than a dozen times.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

As of recently cultivate the word whatever. Whatever.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It's like, of course he feels right because. Because he's having pain. He doesn't like the abandonment. He doesn't like the hassle. Whatever.

[Gage Edward]

That's interesting.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Whatever.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It's just. That's all craziness. But is there a way this could have worked out? I mean, could he have gotten. Are there things he could have softened? I mean, again, I.

[Heather McDonald]

You mean as having a better co parenting relationship, staying together, you know, if you romantically staying together.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yeah. Could there is. I mean, would there where you could have seen him realistically and he softened some of his splitting that it could have worked out. I. No, because.

[Gage Edward]

Because to me. And I actually think this enraged him more personally. She became the priority for you. Yeah. And because she became the priority.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

You said that many times already.

[Gage Edward]

I couldn't. And I know now there was something my gut at the time, but I know now I look at my daily life with her, I absolutely could not do that with her if I was still in that relationship. And that became more important even if.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

He had softened his stuff.

[Gage Edward]

There's not a world that exists that it's. Even now I'm criticized that I don't work enough, I don't have a job, I don't all these things. It's this narrative that they've created that's completely inaccurate down to she takes the bus. Now that became a whole recent episode that he then wanted to control how sure transportation was to get to school. Yet I'm thinking, gee, you're lucky that I have a job that technically I have a window of time. But it's really crucial. I'm actually at the office working during that exact time because it's east coast hours. So in the morning it's like you want to control that I don't work enough, but then work more and do this and do that. And that environment was consistent for the whole time. So being a parent and doing the parental things I like to do with her that I think are helping her, I would never be in that relationship and go back to it because of that thing.

[Heather McDonald]

Just light funniness of the taking the bus. Okay. First of all, you know, he has help, hired help that take her to school in a car. So now she's going on a bus of this is not dropping her off in, you know, on Ventura Boulevard to get on the RTD by herself and go to Koreatown. Like this is. This is a private school that provides transportation, cute safe buses. Because there's people and people that don't live in LA don't know, but there's people from all corners of it and there's traffic. And so it works out okay. Every these people meet at this corner and their kid goes on and then they have a little friends. So but that is drama for content for the show and then people like so this gets, this gets shared on his show.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

So hold on. So hold on.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

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[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

So so on one hand when I hear these stories I think well, he's in pain too, and he's got rage and he's acting it out and blah, blah, blah. Use the codependent to act in. He acts out. Right?

[Gage Edward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And. But you're saying that he's continued to exploit Gage. Just for context, all we've talked about.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, in my opinion, when I think about how many episodes Gage has been mentioned over the last five years since they've broken up, I would say it's three to 400 episodes.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It's not just him acting out his.

[Heather McDonald]

Stuff with his name and everything because he.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

But he wants to hurt him because he's hurting too. And that's, again, that's why I also.

[Gage Edward]

Feel like, in a way, I feel like. And again, I have my core group of people. Right. But I feel like in a way, the intention is to get ahead of what could possibly be the truth coming out. And I'm going to accuse you of things that maybe I did so that if you came back and said, I did those things, it looks like it's a tit for tat childhood argument. Like, no, you did that. No, you did that. And I feel like there's been this and I don't fully get it because I don't need to be in the limelight. Entertainment has been his business for 15 plus years. Go do it. That's your thing. Great. But at the expense of me to say that three or 400 episodes, you're building a career off of talking shit about me. That's a little pathetic on one hand. But also, it is almost like this intentional way to just destroy any credibility that I could have because of a fear that if what really went on came out, it would be. I just feel like I'm under attack constantly with the person.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I would need more. I would need more information to be able to respond to that.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

That's where I feel like the rubber hits the road, whatever that is that you want to talk about. I feel like there's a lot there.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And so we're talking about personality styles and other things, but there's something else. There's something missing.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, I just.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

You can tell me off the air, whatever.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, I just think in the world that we live in and in reality tv, there's a lot of storylines and whatnot, that the girls get back to filming and they're like, you went on, you know, juicy scoop and said, I didn't come to your party because I thought it was lame. You know, whatever that happened. And then that becomes like a little storyline that's one thing to listen to one or two podcasts where maybe someone talks bad about you that either you make up with or you're like, why is that person talking about me? But when I think about Gage's situation, to have every moment of their custody issues, their daily pickups, that an hour was changed, whatever, and then have people that are also being paid to be there as co hosts chime in to please their boss who's paying them, would make sense to say, wow, I don't know what's wrong with Gage. He clearly has issues. Or it's clearly, you know, these people aren't therapists. These aren't. Or the therapists you have, I don't really agree with, but whatever. And I just, you know, I'm like. When I did kind of, like, the math, and I was like, how many episodes do you think while you're no longer on TV and no longer on your own radio show and just trying to, like, be a dad and have your business, how many times do you think you're talked about and mentioned? And I've seen even where someone's like, the only time the show is interesting now is when he's going after Gabe.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

So how many.

[Heather McDonald]

I think probably three to 400 episodes since you've broken up.

[Gage Edward]

But.

[Heather McDonald]

But when I saw that little comment somewhere of people that.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

But it's. It's totally consistent with how reality shows are done. It's like a new manifestation of reality show.

[Gage Edward]

It's very much that. It's an extension of what that originally was, and that's what that show has become.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

But to me, I think it's almost sociological, not psychological. Yeah, it's weird.

[Heather McDonald]

But I mean, I guess the question is, my hope is that in this, that it would stop for you.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Oh, my God.

[Heather McDonald]

That it would stop for you. That the content. That the content about you and your daughter. Because what I also want to say is, you know, when. When a couple gets divorced in this world of reality tv, for example, Tamara Burney on oc, when she divorced Simon, Simon said, the minor kids can't be on tv, so they couldn't be on tv. Same with Brandi Glanville. But what's different about today, where these podcasts become reality shows? You know, even if she isn't going to be on tv, your daughter, there is this, like, loophole of that you can talk about her and tell these stories. And to a child, when they're 35, they might not care. Or even when they're 25, they might care that you Told an embarrassing story about the day they got their period. Okay, well, but to think that there's been conversations about what will that day be like when our child gets her period or when she wants to get plastic surgery and speculation and funny and laughing and talking about a child that's just walking around and we don't know now if her friend's parents have heard this and maybe are like, I'd rather you not play with this child.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Like we don't. You know what I mean? That can happen.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Young male is gonna play it back to her. Believe me. Believe me. And a 12 year old female, when they hit that age, they're gonna use it against her for something. It's just how that age works. It's how it is. And you know, this is, this is not good for kids.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. And I just, I'm shocked that like the hardcore fans and stuff that are vocal in comments have never said, guys, I don't know that my 8 year old would like to be talked about weekly. It's said something or if the, even if the show, even if the story is funny or exaggerated or made up or whatever. It's just that because I remember with my own kids, I said when I did my standup, my first special, which was over 10 years ago, I was like, you can't watch this till you're 16. And now that they're older, I can talk about them on stage. They do think it's funny. They do look back at an old bit and think it's funny about the Hot Wheels car. But I remember somehow Brandon did see a little bit. And I joked and I said Drake is my least favorite. But it was a joke because I said he's so much like Peter now. Brandon loved that joke. He loved that I said that. But then there was something else that I said and it made him mad, of course. And I was like, I told you guys can't watch until you're 16. And I realized like, even though it's talking and stuff like that, and that's why I'm, you know, and I've, I was always like, can I post this? Is it okay? Can you be part of this video or not? And now they are. Good.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I heard about this with Bert Kreischer when he first told, showed his daughter one of his standups and they were like, is this what you talk about? Do you talk about us like this? He's like, yeah, I'm making fun. He's like, they were, they, they didn't know how to process it. They were overwhelmed. And I thought, yeah, that's. That makes sense, right? Yeah, kids, it's their whole world. But there's a weird delusion with reality stuff generally, which is people watching delude themselves into thinking they're in the room.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

They're a fly on the wall. Not that there are a cameraman, a cable guy, a sound guy on one side, a sound man, a cable guy, a director with a video village and 12 people in it outside over here. That's how reality is done. It's very manufactured. And you were not in the room. And you don't know these people. And what you say can hurt. It's like a weird. It's like they treat the reality, everybody on tv like they're comic book characters.

[Gage Edward]

Like they don't really exist, as in the audience.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

The audience believes they're in the room and that the actual people are just sort of cartoon characters.

[Gage Edward]

Well, and I feel like that's weird thing, right? The fans that had watched this show for. I mean, I think I was on for 70 episodes of TV talked about for hundreds of whatever the number is. And these people when they say these things. And you do all realize at the root of this, we don't have a conversation outside of co parenting. It is all about co parenting. And that's what's then shared. At the root is a girl who's innocent in all of this. That's right. And everyone's commenting, saying this stuff, whatever the personality types are on either side. It's been shocking and eye opening to me. I don't need you to be my fan. But to your exact point, the audience thinks they know everyone in this mix and they don't. And the way they're treating it's really hard for me to stand by because it's like you're all, in a way, mistreating my daughter by what you're doing and what you're saying. And that's. It's exactly your point. The audience thinks they really know and they know all the players and they're entitled to their. Entitled.

[Heather McDonald]

That's why they're like, we want to hear this. And Gage is ruining it for us. Gage is rich and Gage is this.

[Gage Edward]

And Gage is that. And why are you trying to shut it down and all of this stuff? Because that makes the show so interesting. It's like. But again, I am just. It's like you said, would you come back to this relationship? No, not at all. Because I couldn't be who I am as a dad. And then when you look at that. It's like, don't shut down the radio show from being able to talk about her and talk about him.

[Heather McDonald]

And that's what also, this is what makes the money, is me talking about my personal life, which involves you, my ex and my kid. And the audience will say that too. Like, well, if Gage doesn't want them being talked about, then he just shouldn't get his child support. And it's like you have all these other people on the show. You can talk about something other than your 8 year old daughter and your.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Ex, you know, and you can talk about your feelings.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

But talk about in explicit ways the other people that sort of.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, it's wrong, but it's true. It's like people, the entitlement of like, well, don't ruin our fund. You know, like, why are you such a bus kill gate?

[Gage Edward]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm sorry. You're trying to protect your daughter and you couldn't work a normal job if you wanted to because we bashed the shit out of you.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Right?

[Heather McDonald]

And they're also very mad that he did, you know, doesn't want photos of her on Instagram or whatever because people. She's beautiful and she would be very recognizable. Just like you'd see a Disney kid walking around the Grove. You might recognize your favorite character on an ABC sitcom, which is a scripted show, which they're getting paid and protected. So you had some stories where, you know, women or whoever, fans will come up to her and she doesn't know who they are. And it's. It's freaking.

[Gage Edward]

She got really freaked out at the Grove one time a few years ago, and I pulled. And I pulled everything off the grave.

[Heather McDonald]

Because the Grove is the story. But still.

[Gage Edward]

But we. But we were shopping at some store that she normally we would always go to and get dresses for her. And this woman came up and just started like a grandma type of figure and just intense. Oh my God, Monroe. Monroe. And she grabbed ahold of my neck. She was probably four, squeezed. And in my ear she's like, daddy, how does she know my name? And I was like, oh, my God. And I immediately. Because everyone's like, you deleted your Instagram because that was a baby. And as soon as she communicated her discomfort, I freaked out. I was like, oh, my God, oh my God, oh my God. You have no idea what's coming because you were born. You know, she thinks she was born on tv. Like, is someone who told her that? I told her that was the end cap of documenting how you were born. You Know that Aunt Alexandra grew you in her belly. You knew that your two dads came together and made you with doctors and with science, and we showed that so it could help other people. But that was the end cap of you, your experience. This wasn't a TV show about you. I'm trying to.

[Heather McDonald]

It's a stupid show.

[Gage Edward]

Yes. And it's like. So that becomes the common constant fight because it's not fully documented that you can't post it. And it's. But it's just. She is beautiful, and I don't need her to read 4000 comments about how beautiful she is growing up.

[Heather McDonald]

Or the five that are like, you're not.

[Gage Edward]

You need braces. Like, why would you exploit that? To open that conversation for a kid that would then have to process that when we don't need to. If you want her to be in entertainment, she wants to be an actress. Or she wants. We know everybody in Hollywood to be able to make that happen when she needs. She is not a kid in Kansas that's trying to get her break. Why do we need to exploit her?

[Heather McDonald]

You don't have to do it now. She also can. She can be in the theater department in college. She can study film and learn the art of it.

[Gage Edward]

But it's like, this kid right now.

[Heather McDonald]

She can do a high school play.

[Gage Edward]

This kid right now wants to be an astronaut. She loves space, Everything about space. She's. Let her be who she's going to be. We don't need to label. And. And that's another struggle. But to your point, I feel like, yeah, that's one thing that is a struggle, is that the audience. It's just at the expense of whoever, because I don't really give a shit. I'm watching you as a character, Gage, who's not been on anything for seven years.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It's a manifestation of the culture of narcissism. We all have these traits. And so these fans have empathic failure. And they don't appreciate what they're doing to her. They can't, because they don't have the capacity.

[Gage Edward]

Empathic failure.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Empathic failure. Pathic attunement. The ability to appreciate the experiences of others emotionally and certainly not appreciate their impact on others. I didn't expect to be so heartbroken, broken by this conversation. There's a lot of really sad things in this one. And I'm.

[Gage Edward]

Thanks.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And I'm sorry.

[Gage Edward]

Thanks. I'm going to go back to my life now.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

No, no, I don't mean right now. Right now. You found kindness and intimacy and all these things that you found your way out. All great. But. But it's all. It's. There's a lot of sadness for me in this hearing this story, you know.

[Heather McDonald]

Before we wrap up. For the people that are at home that are not with a famous narcissist but might have a narcissist ex or they see that their partner does have it and. Or certain traits and they. But they're not ready to leave. Is there anything that they could do or study or get to a place so that they could have pleasant days and not the kind of anxiety that might come with being with a partner like this.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Read about narcissism. I don't want people. Again, don't. Because there might be traits doesn't mean they're a bad person. Doesn't mean the relationship can't survive. There's, I'm sure, tons of good things about that person too. And try to focus on that. But I think the one thing I mean, oftentimes this also carries other things, addictions and things with it. That stuff needs to be treated. If it's not treated, this will not work. You as the codependent, the person attracted to these kinds of people have to learn about boundaries and codependency. It's good. I think it's still out and around. A good book on narcissism calls why is it always about you? It's a good primer book on narcissism. And learn to set boundaries and ask for your needs to get met and ask for kindness. It's funny that the kindness is the word that came up for you. That's often something people within. With narcissists aren't getting and don't know they need and don't know how to take it sometimes. But you should ask for that. And yeah, and ask for them to practice paying attention to your needs and it can work out. It doesn't have to be a disaster.

[Heather McDonald]

This is from Caroline Strossen. I don't know if she's just came up with this or she's a doctor, but this is a smear campaign is what a narcissist does to damage your reputation and credibility because they perceive you as a threat or someone who rejected them.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

So that's what we've been talking about.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

The other thing is. So the other thing is if you're with a real narcissist. I heard a psychoanalyst say this the other day and it was really great. He just goes, if that narcissist says to you Say says you are. What you should hear is, I am.

[Gage Edward]

It's a projection.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

They do a lot of projecting.

[Gage Edward]

And that's what I've had to help a few friends recently that are in breakups or should be in a breakup that they're like, but they said this and they said that and I. The one thing that I've taken away is, you cannot change their story. Their story will morph into whatever their story needs to be. So they sleep at night, as yours, probably. You have your story. Stop trying to control that because you will not be able to control their narrative. But I feel like this type of thing is basically my last five years of. It's just like. What I don't understand is what is the intent of the. I've always thought, why would you come for me personally, as I'm a horrible dad, I'm a this, I'm that and this.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I think it's more the abandonment than even the threat.

[Gage Edward]

But there's no overcoming that for a person like that that has those issues of abandonment of.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yes, yes, they can get treatment. The problem is they don't see it. Right. If you really have a disorder, if you really have a narcissistic personality disorder. Why would I get treatment? You're the problem.

[Gage Edward]

The problem out there. Correct.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Here. The locus of control is out there. But that's not. That's not a good way to go through life. You want to take. Be accountable for everything that's going inside. Inside you.

[Gage Edward]

Yeah.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

That's important.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, I mean, this has been really, really helpful and I'm really glad we got to have this conversation. And Dr. Drew, tell everybody where they, if they are not aware, where they can listen more to you or follow you and your book.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Dr. Drew.com. Dr. Drew TV. You can see our streaming show Ask Dr. Drew. It's Tuesday and Wednesday, Thursday at 3:00. Typically, Rumble is a great place to subscribe. We have Rumble channel there. Check it out.

[Heather McDonald]

Gage.

[Gage Edward]

I'm just me going back to my sad life.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

No, you're not a sad life.

[Heather McDonald]

He knows. It's a lovely life.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I'm going back to the story is sad. Where you are is good.

[Heather McDonald]

I hope that this brings some clarity, not more trauma. I don't know what it'll bring. I'm praying that maybe a few months from now, maybe even after this airs, there will be a shift and this won't continue for the next five years. That's what I'm really hoping.

[Gage Edward]

My hope is that I agree with you. There's nothing Wrong. Like it's everybody else's issue. I just think that people should, in the world today look at a little bit more kindness and a little bit more empathy.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

You brought that up.

[Gage Edward]

I think that is the word of the day.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Empathy.

[Gage Edward]

Maybe another perspective, the same as with a personality like this. If you're in it, look at it. That there is maybe a deeper problem you have nothing to do with. And the lashing out on you is nothing to do with you. They're actually in pain. So feel for that in this circumstance, in this situation, because it keeps becoming so public every day. Maybe a listener of that should be a little bit more empathetic of at the core. You can hate me. I don't care if you hate me. That's fine. You're talking shit about the other parent of that girl who didn't sign up for any of this. So just. I feel that would be a great takeaway. If people are like, oh, you know what, maybe we shouldn't say, gosh, your show's boring, unless you talk shit about Gage or the other. Like, maybe that's a start. I don't know.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And there's a whole other topic we've not discussed. Another show would be a topic of shame. Shame operates in many levels. In all these.

[Gage Edward]

Maybe we.

[Heather McDonald]

Narcissist feels shame, they react a certain way.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Shame at. They have shame at their core. Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, and if you.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

If you get their. Their. If you get near that, that's when you get the.

[Gage Edward]

Maybe we need a follow up. We can just digest all of what we just dumped on you, process your sadness and maybe you come back and tell us the things that you need to share of what really is going.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Oh, my gosh.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, thank you so much, you guys. Thank you.

[Gage Edward]

Thank you.

[Heather McDonald]

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[Gage Edward]

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[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

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[Heather McDonald]

That's where Grainger comes in.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

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