#294 - Legal Expert UNLOADS on Diddy, Epstein, Blake Lively, Johnny Depp & JFK | Law & Crime’s Jesse Weber

Summary

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Julian Dorey Podcast #294 — LEGAL EXPERT UNLOADS: Diddy, Epstein, Blake Lively, Johnny Depp & JFK

Guest: Jesse Weber (Law & Crime Network)
Date: April 18, 2025
Host: Julian Dorey

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Overview

In this wide-ranging, engrossing episode, legal analyst, attorney, and host Jesse Weber joins Julian Dorey for an in-depth breakdown of the most sensational legal sagas dominating headlines: Sean "Diddy" Combs’ sex trafficking case, the Epstein network, the Blake Lively/Justin Baldoni legal feud, the impact and lessons of the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial, and the unresolved mysteries around JFK’s assassination. With a rare combination of sharp legal insight, pop culture awareness, and candid humanity, Weber breaks down both how high-profile trials unfold in court and how they play out in the unruly "court of public opinion."

The episode blends colorful anecdotes about acting, media, and real-life courtroom drama with deep explorations of justice, the media ecosystem, internet misinformation, and the daunting responsibilities of legal professionals and jurors. It is a masterclass in legal storytelling, punctuated with stories from inside Hollywood and the courtroom.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Jesse Weber’s Legal Journey & The Rise of Law & Crime Network

Timestamps: 02:20–12:56

• Acting Roots: Weber shares his training as an actor at the Strasberg Institute, how acting and improv shaped his skills as a legal host, and stories of meeting Al Pacino and working with Russell Crowe.
  • “Everybody thinks it’s so simple being real. It’s, it’s incredibly difficult... I taught me one thing. Not an actor. Definitely a host.” (06:21, Jesse)
• Transition to Law & Crime: After practicing law, Weber pivoted to media, combining legal analysis with broadcast skills:
  • “People who come on are legal experts... That’s how I made the transition... Five days a week, three hours a day, straight live coverage. A lot of it's improv.” (09:12)
• Explosion During Depp-Heard Trial: Law & Crime’s following skyrocketed during the Johnny Depp v. Amber Heard trial, becoming the go-to digital network for legal news.

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2. The Public’s Role & Media Sensationalism in Celebrity Trials

Timestamps: 12:56–21:52

• Trial of the Century Effect: Weber describes the circus-like atmosphere in court during Depp-Heard, including fans bringing alpacas for Depp and crowds treating the trial “like a rock concert.”
  • “People were coming in with T-shirts… It was like a rock concert... I mean, it was out of this world.” (17:13, Jesse)
• Impact of Public Narrative & Misinformation: Clips and memes distorted testimony, and Law & Crime aimed to provide neutral, context-rich coverage.
  • “It was the first time I actually was a part of [misinformation]. Nobody knew that case better than me... People respected that we told it like it is.” (18:31)

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3. Depp v. Heard — Why the Jury Ruled as It Did

Timestamps: 19:00–21:52

• Why Depp Sued: Not primarily about money, but regaining reputation and control of the narrative.
• Jury’s Surprising Verdict: Jury didn’t find Depp had abused Heard in any way (not even emotionally), an unexpected outcome given the available evidence.
  • “I was shocked that he actually filed a lawsuit. As the trial was progressing, I saw exactly what was going on. He was phenomenal on the stand.” (19:00, Jesse)
  • “Jury nullification... That’s a real consideration.” (40:47, Jesse)
• Impact on #MeToo: Discussion around nuance and evidence-based claims in the wake of the movement.

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4. The Modern Jury System — Challenges & Risks

Timestamps: 21:52–26:01

• Pretrial Publicity & Bias: How can juries be impartial when everyone has access to information?
  • “Our jury system’s not perfect, but it’s served us well... It’s called voir dire. It's a jury selection process.” (22:14, Jesse)
• Stealth Jurors & Venue Change: Modern cases (e.g., Luigi Mangioni) face risks of jurors with an agenda, and moving trials has limits in the digital age.
  • “Will there try to be stealth jurors… who want to get on the jury to render a verdict? That is a legitimate concern.” (24:47)

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5. Health Insurance Murder Case: Luigi Mangioni & Public Sympathies

Timestamps: 26:01–32:22

• Health Insurance as Motive: Discussion around Mangioni’s alleged killing of a health insurance CEO — public anger at the industry complicates the moral lines.
  • “Health insurance has ruined people’s lives… But at the same time... you can’t just pick one and shoot them.” (26:01, Julian)
• Manifesto & Terrorism Charges: Legal debate over whether Mangioni’s writings count as a manifesto and if terrorism charges are a stretch.
  • “In order to prove [terrorism], you have to say it was a murder committed to influence a unit of government... I don't quite see it.” (31:51, Jesse)

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6. “Court of Public Opinion”

Timestamps: 37:19–41:47

• Media Optics Influencing Cases: Perp walks (e.g., Mangioni, Diddy) serve as public messaging, but may impact fair trial rights.
• Attractive Defendants, Gender & “Main Character” Treatment: Looks, charisma, and media coverage shape how the public perceives guilt.

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7. The Diddy Sex Trafficking & Racketeering Case

Timestamps: 46:47–55:36; 137:12–149:16

• Nature of the Charges: Weber explains the core allegations, including sex trafficking, racketeering, and conspiracy.
• Key Evidence: Hotel receipts, travel logs, digital evidence, tapes, and notably the infamous beating video of Cassandra Ventura.
  • “That’s one of the most difficult things I’ve seen on tape.” (146:29, Jesse)
• Defense Arguments: Focus on consensual acts (“freak-offs”), attempts to muddy waters around definitions of sex trafficking versus consensual commercial sex.
  • “His sexual proclivities are very different from you and me, but it doesn’t make it a crime… Everything’s on the up and up.” (50:48)
• Trial Strategy & Logistics: Diddy's rush to trial, denial of bail, and speculation about the government’s undisclosed evidence.
  • “He wants to go to trial as soon as possible… If he gets acquitted, that’s it. His next battle is civil cases.” (138:31, Jesse)
• Media Blackout & Transparency: Federal trial has no cameras, so coverage depends on transcripts and reporting.

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8. Celebrity, Sex Crimes & the “Epstein Ecosystem”

Timestamps: 115:57–130:19

• Pattern Recognition: Parallels between cases like Diddy, Weinstein, Epstein. High-profile men allegedly using power as sexual leverage.
• The Allure of the Scandal: Society obsesses over villains, sometimes without evidence, fueled by “elites vs. Main Street” resentment.
  • “People get obsessed with killers or suspected killers all the time. It's not new, but like this, I've never seen anything like it.” (39:05, Jesse)
• Guilt by Association: Contact lists (e.g., Epstein's black book) can dog celebrities unfairly, but also raise legitimate questions about complicity.
  • “He was a guy who knew everybody. Now these are people who are like, oh, shoot, I wish I wasn't in his contact book.” (123:56, Jesse)

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9. Blake Lively v. Justin Baldoni — Hollywood’s Ugly Legal War

Timestamps: 91:10–100:21

• Case Breakdown: Lively alleges Baldoni ran a retaliatory smear campaign after she accused him of sexual harassment; Baldoni claims he was actually bullied, and countersued Lively, Ryan Reynolds, and The New York Times.
• Text & Video Evidence: Both sides produce selective texts/videos to bolster credibility — total PR/legal war.
  • “It's like the grayest case I’ve ever seen.” (95:33, Jesse)
• Team Dynamics & Public Sentiment: The internet quickly takes sides, with “Team Justin” emerging as a cohort, partly due to the culture-shifting aftermath of the Depp-Heard case.

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10. High-Profile Defense — The Ethics & The Burden

Timestamps: 103:11–104:56; 167:07–168:29

• Defending The ‘Worst of the Worst’: Weber and Dorey discuss the heavy moral weight of being a defense lawyer for heinous offenders (Cosby, Weinstein, Nassar).
  • “It's not an easy job. Particularly if you're defending the worst of the worst. I mean, you become a target.” (104:56, Jesse)
• Due Process & Constitutional Rights: Even overtly guilty parties have rights to a fair procedure — and cutting corners for the 'bad guys' endangers everyone.
  • “Everybody has that right. Even the worst of the worst. And it’s not because I agree with them. It’s because you have to make sure the process is followed, or the consequences could be severe.” (109:16, Jesse)
• Systemic Issues: Wealth and fame buy access to better justice.

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11. True Crime & National Obsessions

Timestamps: 63:12–70:58

• Boom in Interest: True crime, particularly violent crime, now dominates media, with women making up a large demographic; storytelling, drama, and human psychology at the core.
• Why Are We Obsessed? “People are fascinated by the human mind and why” — it’s about facing “the evil in this world."

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12. Technology, Social Media & Law

Timestamps: 69:52–73:40

• Tech as Both Witness & Liability: Cellphone data, GPS, and digital footprints help solve — but also complicate — crime.
• AI and Deepfakes: Growing worry over falsified digital evidence and how courts will keep up.
  • “As the technology advances, so does the tech to detect when something is AI... It'll complicate it, but I don’t think we’re quite there yet.” (72:51, Jesse)

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13. JFK, Intelligence Agencies & Unsolvable Cases

Timestamps: 154:58–164:55

• Latest JFK File Revelations: New (and newly unredacted) files offer more detail but no closure — did the CIA fail, or conspire?
  • “From the documents that have been released, Oswald was the shooter, but the CIA at the very least failed to do what they needed to do…” (155:34, Jesse)
• The Limits of Transparency: Full disclosure about intelligence abuses could destabilize public trust, even if only “a few bad apples” were responsible.
  • “If that comes out definitively today...the anti-establishment is going to say burn it all down. And overnight, you got a problem.” (164:52, Julian)
• Enduring Interest: The American public is still hungry for answers on both JFK and Epstein.
  • “It’s one of those cases… People still want to know what’s going on.” (162:56, Jesse)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On method acting:
  “It’s literally taking your life experiences, things you’ve gone through, and… replicating them for that scene.” (06:01, Jesse)
• On the Depp/Heard trial as a turning point:
  “People were coming in with T-shirts… snickering, laughing. It was like a rock concert… The amount of interest, I will tell you, was the importance of what we did” (17:13, Jesse)
• On the challenge of fair trials in a viral age:
  “Public sentiment was mostly in favor of Johnny Depp. But we were like, ‘Let’s tell it exactly like it is.’” (18:50, Jesse)
• On the dangers of “jury nullification”:
  “A jury doesn’t decide based on facts and law, but on emotion… That’s a real consideration.” (40:47, Jesse)
• On Diddy’s defense:
  “They’re going to say, ‘Sean Combs is a weird guy. His sexual proclivities are very different… but it doesn’t make it a crime.’” (50:48, Jesse)
• On the ethics of defense work:
  “You know, I see even with Sean Combs — I don’t know everything they have a video of him doing. That doesn’t mean that’s a racketeering conspiracy or a sex trafficking case.” (60:42, Jesse)
• On the meaning of MeToo:
  “MeToo was such an important movement, but it also doesn’t mean… that the person who comes forward can prove their case, or it happened.” (21:00, Jesse)
• On technology and evidence:
  “This thing [phone] right here… is the number one piece of evidence for prosecutors.” (70:30, Jesse)
• On true crime’s appeal:
  “People are fascinated by the human mind and why people do what they do. That’s not going to change.” (64:46, Jesse)
• On Hollywood’s gray legal wars:
  “I've seen cases before where something can look black and white. This is like the grayest case I've ever seen.” (95:33, Jesse)
• On America’s legal system:
  “It's not a perfect system, but it works. And it works for reasons. It's checks and balances… I get very scared about the idea of attacking the justice system.” (43:59, Jesse)

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Timeline of Major Segments

• 02:20–12:56 — Jesse’s path: acting, law, and Law & Crime Network
• 13:00–21:52 — Johnny Depp trial, internet virality, misinformation
• 26:01–32:22 — Mangioni health insurance murder case
• 37:19–41:47 — Celebrity “main character” syndrome; optics in the legal system
• 46:47–55:36, 137:12–149:16 — Deep dive into Diddy’s criminal case
• 91:10–100:21 — Blake Lively vs. Justin Baldoni Hollywood scandal
• 109:16–110:22 — Wealth and justice; fairness for the non-famous
• 154:58–164:55 — JFK files, intelligence agencies, the legacy of conspiracy
• 167:07–168:29 — What it takes to defend the indefensible

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Conclusion

Jesse Weber and Julian Dorey deliver a compelling, nuanced look inside the most jaw-dropping trials of our time, deftly connecting pop culture, legal theory, and the messy realities of media-driven justice. The episode stands out for its frank discussion of the limits and strengths of the U.S. legal system, the unprecedented power of social media, and the ethical landmines facing anyone who works—on either side—in today’s legal and media landscapes.

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For more:

• Jesse Weber hosts "Sidebar" and "Prime Crime" on Law & Crime, fills in on News Nation, and podcasts with his father on "Always in Fashion"
• Julian Dorey's links and social media are in the episode description

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Transcript

[Jesse Weber]

People get obsessed with killers or suspected killers all the time. But like this, I've never seen anything like. I'm also covering the Luigi Mangione case. If he is guilty, it wasn't going to stop with Brian Thompson, CEO of a health insurance company that he wasn't even a client of. Where was he going? Who was going to be the next one? Why somebody with all that opportunity. If he really did do this, what would change? I mean, what was his last post? They couldn't believe it. This was like a complete 180 from the guy that they knew. You immediately saw like the support for him. It's the question, can you put aside everything that you've heard that you will look at the evidence strictly and look at the testimony, Base your decision purely on the facts and the law? Think about it. If you're a prosecutor, you want to win the big case. It helps your career. And so you had this case that was out in Virginia, 2022, Johnny Depp, Amber Heard, fascinating case. I was shocked that he actually filed a lawsuit. The trial was progressing. I saw exactly what was going on. He was phenomenal. He was incredibly believable on the stand. They didn't believe Johnny Depp abused Amber Heard in any way. Because what the jury basically said was, and it was a big win for Johnny Depp. That's a scary thing to think about. I'll tell you this, Julie. I covered a case recently. It was a really disgusting case. Chinese national malt, multiple women filmed all of it. Had tapes upon tapes upon tapes upon tapes. And that jury.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Hey, guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five star review. They're both a huge, huge help.

[Jesse Weber]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Jesse. Thanks for coming in, man.

[Jesse Weber]

Thanks for having me. This is an awesome studio.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Thank you so much.

[Jesse Weber]

Is that the Great Gatsby? That is right. Yeah. How many people get that?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Not many.

[Jesse Weber]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, probably like four or five before I've gotten it.

[Jesse Weber]

I've. I'm legitimate, I guess.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, you know. You know, you're welcome. A little pop culture right here. You know your stuff.

[Jesse Weber]

Look at this. These are some of my favorite movies over here. And by the way, it was cool because I was. Before I came on, I was looking at the. All the plethora of interviews you've done and the guy that played Carlo in the Godfather.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, yeah.

[Jesse Weber]

That's awesome. That was awesome. That was a great interview.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, Johnny is. He's a national treasure, man. He's almost. He's like 84 or 85, too. And he just comes in and he goes. Anyway, so let me start at the beginning. It's just like three hours.

[Jesse Weber]

And you're like, well, do you know how many times he's probably told that story? A lot. Exactly. So he's got to tell from the beginning. Yeah, he actually.

[Podcast Host Julian]

He actually got recognized in town right after this.

[Jesse Weber]

Really?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Right away.

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Podcast Host Julian]

They're like. They're like, johnny, is that you? I'm like, is this a. Is this a setup?

[Jesse Weber]

Well, you got a.2 seconds for an Alpacino story? Please.

[Podcast Host Julian]

That's my favorite actor of all time.

[Jesse Weber]

So. So, okay, so I go to Polo Bar in the city. Okay? Polo Bar. For anybody who doesn't know, I would say it's probably the best restaurant in New York City. Food's great, but it's like. It's a who's who. You go there. It's a big thing. So I went with my brother and two friends, and we know one of the manager managers there, and she goes, listen, I'm going to sit you at a table. You have to promise me you will not look at this person. You will not try to talk to this person. You will not make any kind of eye contact with this person. I was like, okay, well, who is this? She was like, you have to promise. Because last time he was here, there was an issue. I was like, okay, it's Al Pacino.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Really?

[Jesse Weber]

So Al Pacino. So they sit us at this table, and I immediately stare at him. So I broke. That.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Broke the threshold.

[Jesse Weber]

I mean, it's Al Pacino. What am I not going to look at?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Michael Corleone?

[Jesse Weber]

I'm watching everything he's doing. Like, what did he order? How did he order it? And he's there with. He's dating, you know, younger woman. And I'm. I'm like, watching every. Which everything happens. And he's awesome. He's like, the coolest guy. So. So a woman walks in with a dog. And by the way, just everybody knows, like, you can't go in the Polo Bar with a dog unless there's like. I think the last time I saw somebody there was, like, Clive Davis. And, you know, he is. Right.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like Blake Lively could get away with.

[Jesse Weber]

Well, we'll talk about that. But. So she walks in with a dog. Questionable. And she sits on the chair and falls backwards. So everybody rushes. Everybody's looking. Where do my eyes go? Al Pacino. I want to see what Al Pacino's Reaction to this, and I promise you not. He's eating his chocolate cake, watching us, just laughing at it. I'm like, this is. It was awesome. He was. He's a legend. He's a legend. So it was awesome to say.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. I've actually heard he's really cool too.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It's like. That's interesting that that request was made because he's even the guy who the hell was telling me this, but like, they'll do those bus tours out in L. A. I saw that celebrity people come in and they take pictures on the bus and like, he's the one guy that he'll be outside the house like waving like water in his lawn and shit.

[Jesse Weber]

He's a real movie star. There's a few and far between that are like that anymore.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. And you know what? That gu. Because his career almost didn't happen because obviously Francis had to keep him in the. Francis Ford Coppola had to keep him in the Godfather, like fighting tooth and nail just to get it done because they wanted to fire him. But like, even before that, he did a movie. I don't know if you've ever seen it, but it's called the panic in needle park. It's the first one he did and it was the one right before the Godfathers, why Coppola hired him. But like, he was incredible, man. Like his run in the 70s, starting with that, not even just starting with the Godfather, that was one of the greatest runs in the history of acting.

[Jesse Weber]

So I actually did acting. I did. I went to the same acting school as Al Pacino. You went to Strasbourg? Yeah, I did. I went for a one year conservatory program. And he spoke there. So he spoke when I was a student there, and he was awesome. Like, we were all asking questions and everything. And you know, when you think about what he learned and how he became an actor and the techniques he uses, I don't think anybody realizes acting is one of the toughest things you can possibly do. Yes, everybody thinks it's so simple being real. It's, it's, it's, it's incredibly difficult. And particularly if you're playing characters who are not like you in any which way. And trying to tap into that. It was, I mean, I went there to learn just how to perform on camera, you know, be comfortable in camera, learn how to present. That's how I, you know, got kind of my start. But when he came there and taught us a little bit more of his techniques and it's. He's such a talent.

[Podcast Host Julian]

What were Some of the things he said he did, he's obviously, he's a method actor, but.

[Jesse Weber]

So people get a wrong impression about what method acting is. It doesn't mean you dress up like Abraham Lincoln. You walk and go to the sandwich bar like, oh, well, is this steak sandwich? No, it's literally. It's literally taking your life experiences, things that you've gone through, and through a series of techniques, replicating them for that scene.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yep.

[Jesse Weber]

So if I'm playing a scene where let's say I'm breaking up with somebody, the easiest thing would be have I had a situation in my life where I broke up with somebody or they broke up with me. And you go into that mindset and how do you do that? You recreate the. That time in your life. Do you remember what you were drinking? Do you remember? Can you set the scenario? It's all mental. And some of it's easier said than done, but I tell you, it was. I taught me one thing. Not an actor. Not an actor. Definitely a host. Not an actor. I did a few acting things. I was in one show with Russell Crowe.

[Podcast Host Julian]

That's like a flex.

[Jesse Weber]

That was cool. That was cool. I was in a show called the Loudest Voice that played a reporter. Big stretch. And I was terrified because I've never done anything like that. And he comes in, he's playing Rupert Murdoch, the head of. No, no, I'm sorry, no, not Rupert Murdoch. Roger Ailes. He was playing Roger Ailes. Yeah, full get up. You could barely recognize it's him. And we did the scene in a. It was like in a giant lobby of an. Of a office building. And it was when Fox News was announced. Now I'm one of a swarmy reporter who comes up me a little bit more about what this Fox News is. I don't think it's gonna be really successful. So he does it. So I do it and I'm. I've been. I'm on camera all the time. I'm not nervous. I was terrified. Terrified. So I go, I go. I start the line and I'm like, Roger, like. He goes. He goes, can we stop? Can we stop, mate? I need you to project a little louder. I need you to project a little louder. It's very cavernous in here. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. And so then I. I do it again. I do it a few takes and I. And then I remember the extra next to me goes, how'd you get this? I don't know, but I auditioned. I auditioned And I got in. It was awesome. And I got a chance to talk to him and meet him. He's a really cool guy.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It's a little cavernous in here.

[Jesse Weber]

It's a bit cavenus here. Can you project a little louder? I was like, what are. It's like, you know, Maximus is yelling at me on set. No, he was. He was awesome. He was such a nice guy.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But you. So you went to Strasbourg for how long?

[Jesse Weber]

I went for a year. One year. Conservatory program.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And you. And you didn't think you were an actor?

[Jesse Weber]

It wasn't for me. I loved presenting, I loved hosting. That was what my natural inclination was. I've done things like that. And I think it was great just to. First of all, one of the most important classes I ever took that's helped me a lot as an anchor and reporter is improv.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, yeah?

[Jesse Weber]

Helps a ton. A ton. Improv class was fantastic. I also just learning how to be on camera, that's not so easy. Not so easy. Just presenting and talking on camera and pretending like it's not there. So I think it was an incredible learning experience. I did it at one point in my life, and I thought it was really useful. And then, you know, I was an attorney, and so I had a really different background to get to where I am now. But it, you know, every. I think everything you do in life is a building block to something else.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Did you do. So you did Strasbourg after getting your jd?

[Jesse Weber]

Yes, I went to law school. I practiced law for several years, and then I, you know, went to acting school and I kind of transitioned into, you know, television. And I had, you know, not automatically, it took a little bit, but I had done hosting things before, I had done acting before. And basically the way I made a transition is as I took two things I liked. Practicing law is really, really tough. It wasn't for me. I did it for several years. It wasn't the life that I wanted, but I was fascinated in the law. I did really well in law school. I was like, how do I translate that into, you know, something on TV and broadcasting? And the first thing that you have is people who come on are legal experts for networks, right? They do those hits. So I started doing a million of those. And I built up reps, made contacts. And then I got in touch with Dan Abrams, who is from ABC News on Patrol Live back in the day. And he had started a network called Law News. And it was basically like Core TV doing live coverage. Several hours a day of live trials that were happening. Just started it out. I came in audition, got a job as one of their hosts, and I did it. You know, they then got an investment from A and E, became the Law and Crime Network. And I was hired full time, five days a week, three hours a day straight live coverage. A lot of it's improv. I mean, a lot of it's. There's not scripted.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You're like the red zone of courts.

[Jesse Weber]

Exactly. That is a great point. As we would come out be like, all right, let's just talk about what the prosecution just did. They're like, and we would like, do that for five, for three hours a day. And then it. The. The company blew up. The company blew up. It did.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It's amazing.

[Jesse Weber]

It's incredible. Now it has over almost 7 million subscribers. And I have a bunch of shows that I do for them. I don't do live coverage that much anymore. I do podcast, sidebar documentary show called Prime Crime, Body cams, you know, things like that. And the. The company is exploded. And it's all because of. Damn.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, it's. It's really like, that's what you go to. If you're on YouTube and you're looking for anything that's going on in court, you go there. Yeah, it's long crime 100% of the time.

[Jesse Weber]

I mean, it was crazy. It was Johnny Depp, Amber heard. It was 2022, Johnny Depp, Amber heard. That trial blew us up.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And you were in there.

[Jesse Weber]

I was in there for six weeks. I was in there for almost every day of testimony. And I remember this was when we knew something changed because everybody was coming to us, which was incredible. Everybody was coming to our coverage of it. Our videos were getting 5, 13 million views. Like insane numbers.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Do you think that's just because you guys had set the precedent of being on YouTube and putting so much native content up and already having the brand?

[Jesse Weber]

I think yes, and I think we had already established ourselves. But what also happened was we were getting out clips fast and we were getting out commentary fast. And we had a different way. We were presenting in a different way. We were, you know, actually distributing it to the audience. And I think people really responded to that. And there was a video that we. We didn't plan this and we actually used it a lot. Their videos, we would take B roll in the morning of the crowds because people who were trying to come courtroom, you waited like till. You waited like three in the morning to try to get into the courtroom because everybody needed a seat.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And how many seats are there?

[Jesse Weber]

There was only a limited amount and it was like first come, first serve. So we would have to wait online or we'd have people who wait online. And I remember we took a, a camera view of everybody out there and all of a sudden one of the guys goes, long crime, long crime. I've known about this trial because of you. And everybody just started like jump long crime. And so we obviously clipped that and became really good for us. But it was, it was Johnny Depp, Amber heard that BL company up. I mean we took it to a whole other level and we became, you know, a name brand on in the digital and online space and YouTube as the premier place for all legal stories and crime stories.

[Podcast Host Julian]

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[Jesse Weber]

So not a lot of people knew about it. Here's what happened. Johnny Depp, Amber heard they were in litigation for a while, and they even had litigation out in the uk, but nobody was really paying attention. Attention to it. That's crazy. And so you had this case that was out in Virginia, wasn't in California, wasn't in New York. It was in Virginia because he was suing her for a Washington Post op ed piece that she had penned, basically saying she was a survivor of abuse. And the reason they sued in Virginia is because that's where the Washington Post had published it and nobody had really paid attention to it. So I go there, my team, my company said, hey, we want to go report there for a little bit. Like, sure. So I went, got into the courtroom. It's like 30 people, nobody was there. And then what, what happened? Johnny Depp took this takes a stand. As soon as the word got down that Johnny Depp was about to take the stand, everybody flocked to that courtroom. I mean, it was. I don't think I can overstate. It was insane. It was insane. So many Johnny Depp supporters. Yeah. Actually, can you pull something up?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Sure.

[Jesse Weber]

Can we pull. How do we pull something up on Instagram? Can we pull something up on Instagram?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, yeah, we can pull it up there.

[Jesse Weber]

If you go to my Instagram, I'll show you something. This is.

[Podcast Host Julian]

What's it. What's your ad on? I don't think I have you on Instagram.

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, it's Real J. Weber.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Real J. Weber.

[Jesse Weber]

By the way, I did that before I actually got into media. I thought it was funny. Now it's just cringy. But anyway, I'm not gonna change it.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I like a good reel in front of the name. I think I got that on TikTok. So real Jay Weber.

[Jesse Weber]

J. Webber.

[Podcast Host Julian]

What video are we on?

[Jesse Weber]

Okay, you gotta scroll down on Instagram. I'll show you. It's from 2022. This is worth it, I'm telling you. Okay.

[Podcast Host Julian]

How often do you post on here?

[Jesse Weber]

A little bit private.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, so we gotta follow you.

[Jesse Weber]

Okay, well, I'll hit him with that follow. All right, let me.

[Podcast Host Julian]

This is a live Instagram, except of the follow.

[Jesse Weber]

This is good. This is just. This is just my way to get you as my follower.

[Podcast Host Julian]

That's right. Now you follow back.

[Jesse Weber]

I did.

[Podcast Host Julian]

All right.

[Jesse Weber]

All right.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Follow me on Instagram, by the way.

[Jesse Weber]

You got it.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Links in description.

[Jesse Weber]

So if you go all the way, go to what Is it the posts?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Right?

[Jesse Weber]

Post.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. So we. We gotta. We gotta have you. What's it called? Pin this post. Go all the way.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

We're going to 2022, you said?

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, 2022. This is. This is pictures, too. Yeah, yeah, 2022. Bear with me. This is. This is worth it. I'm telling you, this is worth it. It. Okay, keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going.

[Podcast Host Julian]

All right, we're going to pause for one second. Find this. We'll be right back.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

All right, we're back.

[Jesse Weber]

Okay. So this was the first day a woman brought alpacas for Johnny Depp. Like, literally brought alpaca. She goes, I thought he'd be sad. These are my alpacas. I was like, what is going on? This is. She goes, yeah, yeah, these are for him. And then the. It just. It took off. People were coming in with T shirts. The courtroom, at one point, when Amber Heard. Amber Heard was testifying, was filled with Johnny Depp supporters. There was very few Amber Heard supporters. And they were all snickering, they were all laughing. It was like a rock concert for them. I mean, it was out of this world. And you saw, like, the. The. The amount of interest that people had in this case. And I think I will tell you what was very interesting about that situation was I think it was the importance of what we did, because a lot of people were taking clips since it was a public trial and it was on camera and they were splicing it, and they were splicing it to make it look like Amber Heard was worse than she was or her lawyers were doing a bad job. And it was really. You talk about fake news or misinformation was the first time I actually was a part of it, because nobody knew that case at that time better than me. I knew every aspect of it. And yet they were like, look at this bad argument the lawyer was making. Look at how it was. She, you know, she was uncomfortable. And they were splicing it together like it was a movie to create a narrative that wasn't true. So A Long Crime came forward. And we try to gauge. I mean, look, we knew where public sentiment was. It was mostly in favor of Johnny Depp. But we were like, let's tell it exactly like it is. These are her arguments. These are his arguments. We're going to be entitled down the middle. People respected that. But also, I think it was necessary because you saw how much misinformation was happening.

[Podcast Host Julian]

So how did you see the case? Like, just facts, just on the table, removing all the hubbub and bullshit that was going on. What. What do you think happened there?

[Jesse Weber]

So I was shocked that he actually filed a lawsuit, because what's the worst thing that'll happen? You want your dirty laundry aired for the whole world to see?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Like your dirty shit on the bed?

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. And I was like, why would he do this? Well, if he really believes he can turn the narrative that he's not an abuser, that he was a victim, he goes on the stand, tells his story, the world sees it. How much? Is it really about the money at a trial? Not really. It's about getting his career back, getting his reputation back. And I didn't see that at the beginning. As the trial was progressing, I saw exactly what was going on. He was phenomenal on the stand. He was incredibly believable on the stand. He was. He reversed this narrative that, you know, in the introduction of videos and audio tapes where it seemed like she was constantly berating him and maybe hitting him. This was a much grayer story. Now, having said it, I was surprised by the jury's verdict because what the jury basically said was they didn't believe Johnny Depp abused Amber Heard in any way. And what I mean that I'm not just talking about physical, emotional, mental, psychological, any which way. And this was a long trial where I think that through text messages and testimony, you could at least make the argument that when Amber Heard penned an op ed piece where she talked about being a survivor of abuse, you know, it didn't necessarily have to be a survivor of physical abuse. And yet the jury didn't believe it. They didn't believe that she was abused. And by the way, in a civil case, it's a lower standard. They didn't have to find that he.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, all you had to do is tip it.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. It's just, you know, and they didn't believe it. And it was. It's. Look, it was a big defeat for her side, and it was a big win for Johnny Depp. And I think it kind of reversed the narrative that, you know, MeToo was such an important movement where finally things that were in the shadows were finally coming to light and so important. I also was at the Harvey Weinstein trial. I mean, you talk to me. I think the evidence against him, you.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Know, we shall come back to that.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. So things. It was an important movement, but it also doesn't mean. And I think it's interesting with what's happening with Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni. It doesn't necessarily mean that the person who comes forward can A, prove their case or B, it happened. It's always, you have to look at the evidence, you have to look what's being presented. And it also has to be the credibility of the people who are making these claims. So it was a big tipping point. And I like to believe that the jury, because they also, you know, the jury didn't just side with Johnny Depp. I mean, yes, he won, but he also, they also found that he had defamed her at one and one instance. So this was a careful jury. This was a jury that deliberated, looked at the evidence. They didn't seem to me swayed by public opinion. And thank goodness, because there was a lot of public opinion out there. And that's the kind of jury that you want. Easier said than done. But, but, you know, you got to give them gotta. Your hat goes off to that jury.

[Podcast Host Julian]

How do you, in, in today's modern time, how do you separate those two? Because everyone's got a iPhone, everyone's got access to the Internet. Like, unless you are living under a rock, you've seen something. And yet these juries are supposed to be totally unbiased. They don't even know who this is or what's going on. Like, how do you even create a fair trial the way that they intended it in the Constitution?

[Jesse Weber]

So the world's true changed. It's not about, do you know Sean Combs? Because that trial's coming up is. It's not about, do you know Donald Trump? Because his trial happened. It's not, do you know Blake Lively or Justin Baldoni? Do you know, have you heard about what happened? You expect they're going to know what happened? Brian Coburger, you expect that people are going to know what, what the case is about? It's the question, can you put aside everything that you've heard? Can you have a fresh slate? Can you look, can you promise this court, Court, he promised the defendant that you will look at the evidence strictly and look at the testimony and base your decision purely on the facts in the law. And you have to trust them. Our jury system's not perfect, our legal system's not perfect, but it's pretty great. And it's, it's served us well for many, many years. And I would say there's a system in place. It's called voir dire. It's a jury selection process.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Dire. Yeah, voir dire, void dire. You're in New Jersey.

[Jesse Weber]

That's how we over a Dyer. Did you have a New Jersey lawyer on here. I feel like that would have been like, it's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It's called My Cousin Vinnie there.

[Jesse Weber]

You go to youths. And so, no, it was interesting. So he. So like, you have to. Basically there are questions you ask these prospective jurors. You do research on them, you look at their social media profiles. You can strike jurors. Everybody's. Each side's given a number of strikes where they can just strike them for whatever reason they want. And that through that process, obviously it's strategic. You try to get a jury that you think is going to be on your side. The prosecution wants somebody, the defense wants somebody, a plaintiff wants somebody, a defendant wants somebody. And it's again, not a perfect process. But you. And you have to monitor what the jurors do. If the jurors have a conversation with somebody, if the jurors post something on social media, they're big law firms. They're watching these jurors like a whole constantly. So you have to make sure.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, because then if they, God forbid, like during the trial, once they're on there, if they do anything, I mean, you can get them off immediately if they make, make even one comment.

[Jesse Weber]

Well, it's a mistrial. It's a mistrial if especially, especially if they already rendered a conviction. If they rendered a, you know, a guilty verdict that could be thrown out if there was really juror misconduct or they lied on the jury questionnaire. Here's the thing. So look, I'm also covering the Luigi Mangioni case. Right.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Is there anything you're not covering?

[Jesse Weber]

No, it's everything. We're. Hey, we're long crime. That's what we do. But no Luigi Mangioni. I was asked about this the other day. Like, I haven't seen a case that polarizing on a criminal level quite some time and not even at the point, like, did he do it or not do it? It's like, did he do it? But like, he's justified in what he did.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Jesse Weber]

But to get a jury there, like there is a question, will there try to be stealth jurors, people who want to get on that jury to render a verdict one way or another, that is a legitimate concern. And changing the venue, like getting it out of Manhattan, it's not going to solve the problem. It's about health insurance that affects everybody. So it's, it's a tough.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It's a tough issue, you know, and it makes me really sad looking at a case like that because it's another. It's another piece of evidence that we are really struggling as a society to hold multiple thoughts at the same time. You can hold the thought that the health insurance industry is up, the laws around it are up, some of the people in it are up, some of the other people in it are incentivized to be up because they got to report a quarterly earning every three months. And it's people's lives they're playing with and it's all up and no one's arguing with that. But at the same time, the idea that in America, where we do live under laws, you could just have someone go out and pick one employee, you know, in this case the CEO, and fucking shoot them in the middle of a public street in the biggest city in the world, that we can't do that. And I understand that people are angry at the industry, but there are. We have to be above that. In my opinion.

[Jesse Weber]

I think you have 100% the right opinion. And by the way, a couple things about that. Health insurance has ruined people's lives. It's ruined their own individual lives, it's ruined family's lives. It's ruined people, they know, their friends. There's no doubt about it. There's a problem. There's a problem. I think we can all agree, but it doesn't stop at the health insurance industry. So if we take the point, something needed to be done, there needed to be a wake up call. Okay? I'm not saying what he did was right or wrong, but I think it's important and I think it's, you know, we have to listen. Where does that end? Politics, entertainment, finance, Anybody who's affected anybody's life in a major way, this is the answer. It's very scary. And by the way, I feel very, I feel confident to say that if Luigi Mangioni did do this, if he is guilty, it wasn't gonna stop with Brian Thompson. Where was he going before he was apprehended? You think that just Brian Thompson, the CEO of a health insurance company that he wasn't even a client of, you think that was gonna be where it was gonna end? Brian Thompson, look, he knew where he was. Again, taking the allegations is true. He's innocent until proven guilty. But he knew where he was gonna be. He was going to an annual investors conference. Easy target. Who was gonna be the next one? If this really was a wake up call or trying to take it to the man, I don't believe it was gonna end in Brian Thompson. That's a scary thing to Think about. And I'll tell you this, Julian, when there was that manhunt for a week, we didn't know who it was, what was going to go on. I said, you immediately saw, like, the support for him. Like, they didn't even know he was. Oh, my gosh, this is great. I thought people might know who he is, see him in public and be like, turn the other way. I don't want him to get caught. I thought that might happen. I thought that was a legitimate concern. So, again, hats off to the people in Altoona, Pennsylvania, that McDonald's who actually alerted authorities and stepped in, because if they didn't, would he have been apprehended? I mean, look, taking the allegations as true, the fact that the suspect removed the mask and you saw him smiling at the girl in the. The hospital. Yeah, listen, that, that. That's probably his undoing. That's probably what, you know, let him in.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. And it's actually one of those things where when you look into his backstory and what happened, because I. I do always try to understand, you know, what gets a person that, you know, don't. You don't have to have empathy for the act. But how did the person become the guy who was going to do that? And when you see this kid who was like this all American kid, extremely smart, obviously, like, he had a privileged life, but he took advantage of every single thing that was put in front of him in, like, a positive way, and was. And had a whole. He had his whole life in front of him. You know, at some point he gets this back injury when he's surfing, and you can see it on his social media when you go through his Twitter, which is that even up anymore?

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, it's up. It's up. Take a look. He's got a lot of followers, which is interesting, because I think the last thing he posted was obviously before the Brian Thompson killing. And it's like he was a normal guy, like, posting about random stuff. And it wasn't like you. From what I last I read, you couldn't see somebody that looked indoctrinated. I mean, the why of this is still confusing. Why somebody with all that opportunity, if he really did do this, what. What would change? I mean, what was his last post?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Go. Go down a little bit. That's the pin post. Thanks, Pat. Yeah, it was like a retweet of Huberman. But I. If you look through them all, like, yes, there's a lot of intellectual interests and health hack interest that you'll see. But when you Start looking through some of putting them all together. And I have it in a little, in a luana. I looked at this back, like when he was arrested. You can see the image of someone who had, in my opinion, retreated from society, had some sort of bone to pick, and was too smart for his own good because he was a brilliant, brilliant kid for sure. And I think, like, he kind of. I mean, I don't know what was. I'm not a doctor. I don't know what was going on in his head, but something happened there that involved him just severely overthinking and getting into some sort of. Some sort of psychic state in that way. And when you hear from his friends and his family, like he had totally retreated them over the past six, seven months, I want to say, leading up to this.

[Jesse Weber]

So I. We launched a brand new podcast. It's called Luigi. It's on through, wondering, I mean, of course. And we interviewed like, people he knew, he grew up with, people he was hanging out with in Hawaii. And like, you know, some of them might have seen a change, but some of them were just so shocked, really. What? Like shocked when it came out that he was the suspect. Expect they couldn't believe it. This was like a complete 180 from the guy that they knew. And I have to imagine it is an incredibly difficult time for his family trying to make sense of all this. But my gosh, hopefully between now and whenever his first trial is, because he's facing, you know, three different jurisdictions, three charges and charges in different jurisdictions. Yeah, Pennsylvania, New York State, and then federal charges, although he hasn't been federally indicted yet. But yeah, whenever that trial happens, between now and then, hopefully we get more answers. I mean, those writings, the manifesto, even though his defense attorneys don't want to call it that, it gives you a little bit of. Of a glimpse. But I don't know. I mean, it's funny you say it is, right. You know what his defense team is saying? It's not a manifesto. Don't call it a manifesto. You know why it's not a manifesto? He didn't release it. The. The suspect has to release it in order for it to be a manifesto. What happens if you get caught before it's released? I mean, is it not a manifesto? They don't want to do it. They say it's tainting the jury pool, all that. But actually, it's an interesting argument. They say real quick, I'll. I won't digress. But they basically, in order to get terror, it's murder for terrorism. That's how they're getting first and second degree murder in New York. That's how they're getting life in prison. And it has to be murder in furtherance of terrorism. In order to prove that, you have to say it was a murder committed to influence a unit of government or intimidate or basically instill fear in a population. And the pro, the defense's argument is, is government. You're deliberately putting that those writings out there, calling it a manifesto. You're creating this sensation in order to justify your charge. Because I actually believe from a legal point of view it is a stretch to say it's terrorism. I don't think it quite fits. I think it's easily second degree intentional murder. I think they'll probably get him on that. But to say it's terrorism, I don't quite see it. But I think it was an interesting argument they made.

[Podcast Host Julian]

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[Jesse Weber]

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[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, terrorism's like this word we throw around. But the actual legal definition is pretty complicated.

[Jesse Weber]

No, it depends upon the statute. This one is if you're going to commit a murder that is designed to influence a unit of government or intimidate a civilian population. Which would make sense for a classic example, if somebody goes out out, has a suicide vest on, blows it up. Right. And in the name of some cause abroad. Clearly fits the definition here. What was he really trying to do? I mean, taking the allegations is true. What, what change was he trying to make? Well, how was he trying to influence government? Was he, he wasn't going after other people in the population. If you look at the video, there was a woman, a bystander, who watched him gunned down or. Excuse me. Well, allegedly watched him gunned down. Brian. I'm a lawyer, I gotta say, allegedly watch him gun down. She ran away. He didn't. That suspect did not target any civilian person. He wasn't trying to instill fear. Now, you can make the argument, you can make the argument. CEOs of other companies are part of a civilian population. Was he trying to scare them? It's a. You see what I'm saying? It's a little bit of a shock. It's not clear on its face. And I'm sure prosecutors are going to have to expand upon it leading up to trial.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. And his family's not supporting him at all in this, right? Like, they're not. Not we know anything about that.

[Jesse Weber]

Not. I don't know, like outwardly, I mean, he is getting a lot of financial support from the people, the fund. I think they, the family has been rather quiet and understandably so, but I don't know how much they helping him in his legal case.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Can't imagine being in that position.

[Jesse Weber]

How do you even process it? And by the way, you know, I don't know, the last time they spoke to him, him, like, did they know what he was up to, where he was, what was going on? What was that relationship like? How much is that going to be teased out at a trial? I don't know, are they going to have a, you know, sit down for an interview? Probably not. But that relationship between him, his family and understanding. What did they know about him? Where, what was he up to? How did he make his way to New York? Where did he get a ghost gun? Again, taking the allegations is true. These are questions that are still up in the air. We don't have a clear answer.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. What was the story with the gun again?

[Jesse Weber]

It was a ghost gun. It was like a 3D manufactured gun. And by the way. So it was interesting. Like, if you think from a defense perspective, he's apprehended in Altoona, Pennsylvania, and he has this weapon on him. And they're able to match the ballistics to the crime scene. You have the surveillance footage. Right. You have fake IDs that match the hostel where he was staying. This is relatively a straightforward case for prosecutors. Now, recently, his defense team has said, what's the best. What's the best way that you. You get a case thrown out? You say the evidence was improperly collected. Right. Imagine none of this evidence comes in. So they basically said his rights were violated and that McDonald's police cornered him. They didn't properly read him his Miranda rights. They broke protocol. All of it should be tossed. I don't. I think it's an uphill argument. Probably not going to work, but that's the first thing they're trying to do to. To help his legal case.

[Podcast Host Julian]

What about the Dark Knight Rises? Like Purple Walk they made him do. Was that a part of the case to throw it out?

[Jesse Weber]

Good reference. He. He and Diddy now in the same mdc. It's like Arkham Asylum, right? Isn't it? Look, I think people can criticize that. It was unique. You don't see it often. Then again, I think the mayor, Eric Adams, is trying to make a statement. This is a crime that we don't really see ever in midtown Manhattan. Yes, there are shootings, obviously, but nothing like that. I've been, by the way, that street 300 times in my life. I've been on that.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah.

[Jesse Weber]

Because I used to park my car right there, so I know exactly where it is. Stuff like that doesn't happen when you see the public fervor for him. I think the government has to take a strong position to make sure there's no other copycats they're making. They're sending a message.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I understand that, but.

[Jesse Weber]

But the problem is, is, like, that could influence a jury. It can embolden other people. It's something they have to think about every. Optics are very important here.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, that's. That's a great word.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It's all about the optics. It was. It was kind of crazy, though, because my buddy Joe De. And his writing partner, Matt Ferrara wrote this script for this play called Sacco and Vanzetti, based on that case called Sacco. And. And Vanzetti are dead. And so I think Luigi was caught on a Monday, the Saturday before. Me and my buddy John went in to see their first table read of it. And it's like this ridiculous over the top, like comedy play with. And so they had the whole cast in there, like doing a private table read. And one of the jokes is that they were blaming the assassin on this crazy lone gunman named Luigi.

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, yeah. Oh, wow.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And then on Monday it comes out and they're like, this is the greatest marking opportunity of our life.

[Jesse Weber]

Unbelievable. Unbelievable. But did you see that thing? Like when he was first arrested, it was like at a nightclub, somebody put up his picture on the, the DJ booth screen and everybody in the club went nuts. They were like, yeah, it's like. I was like, I've never seen it. People, people get obsessed with killers or suspected killers all the time. It's not new, but like this. I've never seen anything like it. I've never seen anything like it.

[Podcast Host Julian]

If his name weren't fun to say, Luigi Mangione is a very fun name to say. And if he weren't like a young, good looking dude.

[Jesse Weber]

No.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Would it be this big?

[Jesse Weber]

Probably not, right? Probably not. I mean, it's, let's call it what it is. He is, he has become, I think people who believe what he did is right. And I'm not saying that's everybody who supports him, but people who believe what he did is right or understandable. There would probably be some of that, like, oh, he's sending a message, I kind of emphasize. But the fact that he's young and, you know, good looking, it helps. And it also will help in a jury. It also helps. It's gonna, you know, optics matter. I say it again, the way you look matters, especially in a courtroom. It's, it's, it's, it's a big consideration. Absolutely.

[Podcast Host Julian]

So he could technically be sitting at the table while shit's going on on the witness stand and just be winking at some, you see, middle aged juror. And that lady's gonna vote for him.

[Jesse Weber]

If he gets caught doing that, he's in a lot of trouble. But no, he, he had a conversation about this recently with an FBI profiler. I don't, I. So I'm, I'm saying this, this is what she said. I asked her the question. I said, do you think he's deliberately chiseling his jaw, looking at the camera? You ever see that when he's like in court, he's like looking around like he's playing up a little? Absolutely. 100%. He is. I don't know. That was her opinion. But he knows what's going on. He gets it. I've never seen so much conversation about loafers before in my life. Because he wear loafer loafers and a green sweater.

[Podcast Host Julian]

They gave him an eyebrow job in prison too.

[Jesse Weber]

I saw that. Look, it matters. And human jurors are human beings. Look, the big concern, we call it in the law, jury nullification. It's when a jury comes in and they don't decide a case based on the facts of the law, they base it on a motion. Motion. That's a real consideration. You're not allowed to do that as a defense attorney. You're not allowed to do that, like appeal to the jurors emotion, say you should put aside the facts in law and find him not guilty because of that. But it's implicit and you wonder if that's something that could happen.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see it play out because also, like you said, it's in three different. There's like three different jurisdictions with this New York State. So that's one case. The federal case, also in District, Southern.

[Jesse Weber]

District of New York. Yep, yep.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And then the case in Pennsylvania is that just like evidence tampering and illegal.

[Jesse Weber]

Gun carrying, forgery charges, presenting fake police gun, weapons possession charges. It's obviously the less serious case when you're dealing with federal murder charges that carry potentially death penalty and state murder charges that carry potentially life in prison.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Now let. Let's play a hypothetical here, because I don't know, I mean, I guess because judges are human beings too. It does vary judge to judge, but hypothetically, yeah, let's say shit goes down. He gets found not guilty of the serious charges in New York and the federal court. Court, but goes to Pennsylvania on the forgery charges and the gun charge and whatever. I don't know what the, what the sentencing guidelines would be, but you know, let. Let's say it's something that the normal person, if they were found guilty on that, and in this hypothetical scenario, let's say he was. They'd get three years or two years or something. Do you think a judge would use their own judgment to say it? I'm giving them 20 years because I think he did this.

[Jesse Weber]

I mean, for those charges he's facing. I don't remember off the top of my head what the maximum is. I. They would have to be in. The judge would base the decision based on the arguments from the prosecutor and the defense attorney. Now they could go past it. They could say. I've listened to arguments, and I think it actually should go beyond what the minimum is or what the maximum is here, but that'll be appealed because, again, you have to look at strictly what those charges are. Right, right. And, yeah, that's a consideration, but I don't. I don't think necessarily that would happen. Okay. It's interesting. I mean, look what O.J. simpson. Right? O.J. simpson found not guilty. And then O.J. gets convicted of that whole Las Vegas stealing the memorabilia, and he got, what, seven years? I mean, it's like eight years. Yeah. I mean, look, there were people who are like, he. He got convicted because. Well, I think the. I. I don't. I don't. I don't remember that case that well, but I remember there's a conversation of how much was it based on the evidence in that case versus this is a second shot at trying to hold them accountable for what he allegedly did.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Again, because, like, we have this system set up that's supposed to be like the system and buy the book, and we do this and then that and this and then that. And I know in law school, like every lawyer I talk to, they train you to be objective, objective, objective, but there's still. It doesn't matter how objective you get. We're all still human beings. And there are still little things like, forget the jurors. I'm talking about the people, the judges and the lawyers. There are still things that creep into every single case, some more than others, and that can change the facts of the case.

[Jesse Weber]

Hey, by the way, I mean, this is why we have a system in place where there's a trial court, there's an appellate court, there's a Supreme Court. Right. Or here in New York, we call it the. Or New York, we call it the court of appeals. But basically, there's a lot of conversation right now about the courts at a political level. Right. Should a judge have this much power? You know this. The system works. Now, you don't have to agree with the judge's decision, but you can make arguments to have it overturned. Yes, they make mistakes. Yes, there could be an issue of a conflict of interest. Yes, there could be an issue of a bias, but that is why you have another court review it and then another court above that review it. It's. It's. It's, again, not a perfect system, but it works. And it works for reasons. It's checks and balances. And I get. Look, I'm an attorney. I get very scared about the idea of attacking the justice System doesn't mean you can't attack the arguments, doesn't mean you can't criticize the courts for decisions you should. Should. But to attack our framework is, is a concern that I have because it works both ways. It works both ways.

[Podcast Host Julian]

No, I, I agree with you. And I, and I, I always make sure I say this. I think we have the greatest legal system in the world. I think it's pretty incredible how we set up. Just like anything, I'd always want to improve things where we can, right? So where you see things, where they go astray when you see, like I'm passionate about cases where people get convicted of stuff on horrible evidence, prosecutorial misconduct, and they get thrown away for the rest of their life and stuff like that happens. Where you see things like that, that you want to go in and say, okay, why did this happen? How can we try to prevent that happening or have it happen a lot less in the future? And I think that's fine. But when you, when you start to take those cases and say, therefore we should burn the whole system down, that, that's a bad idea. That's a really bad idea.

[Jesse Weber]

It's the police officer argument, right? There are bad apples, but doesn't mean that you get rid of all police departments. It doesn't work that way. There's corruption at every level of government. There's corruption, every kind of industry. They're bad actors, they're bad people. People. It happens, but they hopefully the system roots itself out and you can check those people and root it out. You know, look, and I think the beauty of our system is you are innocent until proven guilty. You put the prosecution on their toes. Prove, prove that my client is guilty. Do you have the goods or is there a sloppy investigation? Is what you're presenting not amount to the crime that you're charging the person with? That's a big standard. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt that if you people really break it down, Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, reasonable doubt, it's a very, very high standard. And, and I, you know, look, there's a lot of responsibility we give jurors for that. It's not an easy task, particularly with the subject matter. I mean, let me tell you something. We're talking a lot about Diddy, right? Combs. Okay, people. Oh my gosh. What, you know, what's this trial going to be like? The celebrities, right? Think about the jury. Think about, think about if the videos are true. They have videos of these freak offs, these sex acts, these allegedly illegal sex acts.

[Podcast Host Julian]

They got to see It.

[Jesse Weber]

They have to see it. Now, I, I covered a case recently. It was a really disgusting case. It was actually out in the uk Chinese national, raped multiple women, filmed all of it. Had tapes upon tapes upon tapes upon tapes. And that jury had to watch it, and they had to be excused. They're like, I need a break. I need a break. Remember what they have to go through and see. It's the worst of the worst.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It ain't a movie.

[Jesse Weber]

It's not a movie. It's not a movie. Now, you know, especially with a murder case dealing cases with children, which unfortunately I deal with a lot. I mean, those are. Those are the worst cases. And, and it's not easy sitting on that jury and trying to not be influenced by what they're viewing. Right? I mean, they, you see somebody being victimized on a tape, you. I want justice. But is it going to be Sean Combs that deserves to be found guilty, or is there more to the story here? It's. You have to be very clear about what you're arguing. And that's the, the trick for prosecutors.

[Podcast Host Julian]

How do you do that job when you're defending the people like that and you have the videos?

[Jesse Weber]

Because you have a. Everybody's entitled to a defense. That's your job. They're entitled to a vigorous defense. Okay? And you make the argument. What they're making in the Sean Combs cases is if he engaged in. We're not even running away from the term freak offs. We'll call him freak offs. He had commercial sex workers. Sure. He had threesomes. It's not illegal. Everybody was. It was all consensual. And it's interesting because the Sean Combs case, after the release of that video of him beating Cassandra Ventura in a 26, you would say, throw him away, lock the cuffs up, he's guilty. But when you look at actually trafficking and what that means, Right, So it's the idea of harboring somebody, transporting somebody, enticing somebody to commit commercial sex acts, sex acts for something of value, using force, fraud, or coercion. Is that really what's going on? Or did he have a bunch of girlfriends and intimate partners that he traveled around, had group sex with, paid for things. Is that sex trafficking? Well, it is if. If it's not consensual. And it's a really thin line because the classic sex trafficking case is somebody who kidnaps a bunch of people. People, right. Puts them on a boat to pimp out to, you know, wealthy individuals, something like that. This is a different kind of case. And we're seeing it with the Alexander brothers in New York. These high powered real estate, private security brothers. We're seeing it with.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Wait, I don't know about that.

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, you don't know about the Alexander.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. What's going on there?

[Jesse Weber]

Alexander brothers. This was happened a few months ago. They're facing federal and state charges. These guys were like the top of the top of real estate in New York and Miami. And also private security. They had a private security firm, very wealthy, very well known, very well connected. They have been accused of sexually abusing and sex trafficking women for years, since high school, that they even joked about, like gang raping girls in high school.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Real quick, Pat, can you just mark down this spot? Is like, we got to watch for some of the language.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. And it's, it's a really, really disturbing case. But it goes back to the question, is it sex trafficking? If you h. I mean, if they were drugging these women. Women and abusing them, okay, you have a stronger case. But does it fit within the definition? And that's something that defense attorneys are really going to be honing in on. So when this trial happens for Sean Combs in May or when their trial happens whenever it will happen, those definitions are going to be very key. To say this is not a classic example of sex trafficking or racketeering like a criminal enterprise. The prosecution, the government's going too far. They're going too far. Here they're saying, you know, Sean Combs operating a criminal enterprise. Guys, really? How? Show me. And you know, it's going to be, it's going to be an interesting narrative. Two different narratives put forward.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I don't know, 10,000 fucking buckets of baby oil. That doesn't help prove a criminal fucking conspiracy. I mean, Jesus Christ, they, they remember.

[Jesse Weber]

What his attorney said when. He's not going to make this argument. But you know what?

[Podcast Host Julian]

He. Costco.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, went to Costco. He went to Costco. Maybe bought him bulk. Look, they're going to say, Sean Combs is a weird guy guy. His sexual proclivities are very different from you and me, but it doesn't make it a crime. And they, and it's interesting because I follow the back and forth of this. They're trying to get evidence thrown out of this case, significant evidence. And they say the reason the evidence should be thrown out is because the warrant, the applications to get search warrants for his houses, what he had on his person, his electronic devices, they were defective. Why are they defective? Because prosecution, you didn't put in Evidence, text messages between him, him and these alleged victims that show everything was consensual. That's their argument. We don't know. A lot of it's redacted, so we don't know what the conversations are, but they're like, if the judge would have seen this, that there was more to the story, then you wouldn't have granted these search warrants. And none of this evidence should have come in. I don't think it's going to be much successful, but that's going to be the argument. Everything was consensual. Everything's on the up and up. People are just coming after him out of the woodwork for whatever reason. They're fabricating it. They have a financial incentive to go after him. But their argument is nobody's telling the truth.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Well, the one thing I keep thinking while you're going through this is that it's. It's almost like it's being made in either or. What? Why is it not both? The guy had a lot of sex. I'm sure he had legal sex. I'm sure he had consensual sex. But why? I. It also appears to me like he did a lot that was possibly, at the. At the least, not consensual and did involve, like, sex trafficking. It's like, you know, let's say for a second. Second, he were a part of a blackmail operation. Okay, we've seen this before, and I don't know that he was, but it certainly looks like there could have been something like that, because this is something that's very easy to blackmail people. All you had to do was be around the guy, and now your name is sullied forever. You may have been there. Let's say he throws, just use round numbers, 50 parties a year. You may have been at 40 parties, and those might be the 40 where everything was consensual. But what about those 10 where there. Where there weren't and you weren't there, but no one knows which those 10. 10 are.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You know what I mean? So if it's a mix, like, why does. Why does the. Why does the judge have to assume it was everything or nothing?

[Jesse Weber]

It's called reasonable doubt. They're trying to muddy any of the waters. They're trying, I think. And by the way, when you file a case like this, where you have four victims, right? Four alleged victims, if the defense can strike at the credibility of one victim, it taints the credibility of the others. So in a way, the prosecution is doing what they can to secure a Strong conviction against Sean Combs. Making sure, you know, he, he, he never gets out of prison again. You have as many victims as you possibly can to. To testify to. I mean, just recently they filed another indictment, adding two more charges with respect to another alleged victim. And you want that. It strengthens your case. But on the other hand, if there's one little weakness in your case with one victim, then that can. That can, you know, weaken the rest of your case. And that's a big problem for the prosecution. So I believe. I believe fair argument. I believe that the victim one in this case is Cassandra Ventura. And if you start with her and you start with her account, remember, she was the first person who sued Sean Combs back in November of 2023. Started this whole thing. Harrowing account. Her description of getting beat up by Sean Combs was identical. Identical to the video that was released months, months later by cnn. So if you didn't believe her accounts are like, oh, the c. Seems when that video came out, you're like, I believe everything she's saying. That's, that's, that's what I think a fair argument is. And they've been trying to get that video out. But you know what their argument is to that, which I think is going to be a key piece of evidence? Domestic spat, Unfortunate incident. Really unfortunate incident. But it was not evident, you know, not. Not evidence of sex trafficking. Although the prosecution says, where was she running away from in that hotel? She says she was running away from a sex worker that was in that room. And remember, Sean Combs looks like on that video running out in a towel. Why is he in a towel? I think that video may make or break the case at least. So it's really important. By the way, we don't know what else is out there. Right. They have other digital evidence videos, if that's one part. What else do these videos show?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, didn't his lawyer step down to one of them?

[Jesse Weber]

One of them.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And that was his wife is Luigi's lawyer.

[Jesse Weber]

No, no, no, no. So he's still represented by Mark Agnito, but there was another lawyer that stepped down, but he. A really strong legal team. And yeah, his. That's right. Mark Agnifolo's wife is representing Manioni. So The NIFOs have two very, very big clients in the same courtroom. But look. And the problem with the federal case is the Sean Combs case, there's no cameras, so we won't see what happens. We'll get reporting back.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, that's right.

[Jesse Weber]

Transcripts, transcripts. But it's going to be different. We won't have the actual testimony.

[Podcast Host Julian]

When are they going to change that rule?

[Jesse Weber]

It's, it's a, a problem. You're talking a guy who believes all in transparency. I think there should be cameras in the Supreme Court. But look, they have the rules. They, they are concerned about. I've heard the arguments. Arguments are you have cameras. It could affect the trial, it could affect the jury.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But you do it in state trials.

[Jesse Weber]

I know. It could affect. It could affect the way judges and attorneys perform. You know, they have rules about it. I don't agree. I think it's a real problem. I'm all about transparency. I think it's important for our country to know how our justice system, particularly.

[Podcast Host Julian]

In a high profile case, 100% in so many of the big cases are in federal court.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And it's also like, you know, we talk about trying to improve the legal system and stuff. Listen, when people do wrong, there should be punishment for that, and that's what it should be. Are you drinking a Saratoga water right now?

[Jesse Weber]

So. I am.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Son of a.

[Jesse Weber]

By the way. God, I've been drinking this. I've been drinking this before that guy did the Challenge. I don't even know what the guys. I was drinking this for the last year. Do you know why? Because they said, like, all those plastics have those microplastics, whatever. So I've been drinking this. And then all of a sudden Saratoga went on the map because of the guy does the Challenge. I don't know. But yeah, it's delicious. It's phenomenal.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, my God.

[Jesse Weber]

Glass all day, every day.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, I thought that was a tr. I thought they might have paid you to do that.

[Jesse Weber]

They should. They should. But yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

All right. Anyway, though, what I was saying with the, with the federal system, the, these cases are often like the biggest cases we have. And when I was saying about improving the system, when I see that our conviction rate in the federal courts is, I believe it's between 97 and 98% percent that. I think the lack of transparency is a huge part of that problem because there's no way it's that high. Like, I could see it being 9010. Right. I could see 90% of the people coming in there being mostly guilty or at least somewhat guilty of the things they're accused of, but like 97, 98.

[Jesse Weber]

So I'll counter that by saying the feds don't go after everybody. When they do. I know when they do, they, they will put all their resources into it they go after, after the big fish with the strongest evidence. They won't just pull the, the trigger on a case unless they really feel they have the goods. That's why it took a long time for there even to be charges against Sean Combs. And so they have to feel fairly confident. Now it doesn't mean that there's not, not guilty verdicts, it doesn't mean that they don't have weak cases. But when the feds go after you, it's very different than state charges. There's more limited avenues on to charge for a federal crime crime. And they are quite experienced prosecutors. The Southern District of New York, that's prosecuting Sean Combs is no joke.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, I know, I'm very, very familiar. So part of the problem is though, again, there's, you don't want to paint the whole, I guess, barrel of apples as like one or two bad ones. Right. But that does exist too. And I'll give you an example that's personal with me with this Raj Rajaratnam. You remember that case?

[Jesse Weber]

Sort of of.

[Podcast Host Julian]

So he was the first hedge fund guy found guilty of insider trading. Friend of mine, I had him on the show. I followed that case when I was in high school, which means I followed it in the media cuz I was interested in like Wall street and how that worked and whatever. I thought he was guilty as sin. So when he first got introduced to me, like this is over three years ago now, I, we were talking about bringing him on the podcast which we ended up doing for episode 87. I told him, I said, yeah, you know, I thought you were guilty as hell. He's like, no problem, you know, we'll come talk about it. And so I actually spent like a month going through that case and going through some of the legal documents and how it went down and everything. And I had my dad look at it too, who's an attorney. He's not a criminal attorney, but he's a civil litigator. And we're looking at like holy, like, I, it's not a popular stance to take. Like billionaire hedge fund guy might be innocent, but we, we don't think he did this. Like, could there have been some spots where he was careless? Absolutely, for sure. Could there have been some spots where he was a little nice, Naive. Yes. But like don't think he did it. And part of the reason was because when you actually look at the evidence that the, that the feds presented, the case was rigged against him from the start, including the fact that all of their evidence was not supposed to be admissible in court. They got all of their wiretaps illegally. The judge admitted it in a Frank's hearing out loud, which should. Which is a pretrial hearing, as you know, which should mean you then say, therefore, no case. But the judge said, but I'll let the case continue, and I'll let you keep the wiretaps and everything. And, like, the issue with wiretaps that he talks about, and it is true. It's like, yes, they're useful because you can catch guys who are really actually doing bad, for sure. But then the problem is, whenever you're recording thousands and thousands of hours of people, you can take something out of context and hear some guy say, you know, to his mom, I'm gonna be home. I'm gonna be home for spaghetti tonight. And they sound guilty.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You know, the judge himself said that in an interview after the trial.

[Jesse Weber]

And I. I'm like, then why the fuck did.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Did you let this in? So that's why I say, like, yes, the feds come in, and when they come in, they come heavy. We've had some guys in here, they talk about how much, you know, they put into making a case, and they're very confident in it. But then sometimes you have a case where even, let's say a guy's even guilty of something, they'll make him guilty of really, like, five times more than what he really is. Yeah, that's kind of where my concern is.

[Jesse Weber]

It's a legitimate concern. It happens across this country all the time. There are bad prosecutors, They're a bad prosecution. And look, I see even say with Sean Combs, like, I don't know the evidence yet. Like, I don't know everything that they have a video of him doing. That isn't mean. That's a racketeering conspiracy or a sex trafficking case. We have to see where it develops. But I 100% agree with you, and I think it happens in law enforcement, too. Like, one of. There was a crazy case that I covered. I never forget it. You know, look, I'm. I'm. I believe that our law enforcement is so important. And I about talked. Talked about it before. You know, there's bad apples. You can't just say that there shouldn't be police officers. But on the show I host Prime Crime, this documentary show, we did a full hour episode. This guy named Zachary Wester. You know what Zachary Wester did?

[Podcast Host Julian]

No.

[Jesse Weber]

Planted drugs in people's cars. And that's how he was getting his, you know, his. His citations up and right. And you see on tape him with what appears to be a bag in his hand. I don't remember. It was meth or coke. And his. He like, literally drops it in. And he was, you know, he. Multiple, multiple, multiple people came forward and said, he ruined our lives. And he was convicted. And it was like the worst of the worst, you know, hates corrupt police officers the most. You know who hates corrupt prosecutors or lawyers or judges the most? The law enforcement, the prosecutors. It puts a bad name on the work that they do. And it happens. It's shocking, but it happens a lot.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. I wonder what gets someone to that point.

[Jesse Weber]

Well, think about, if you're a prosecutor, you want to win the big cases, it helps your career, whatever the next level is. Politics, judge, private practice. A lot of prosecutors go into defense work, and that can be quite lucrative.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But it's people's lives you're putting in your hands.

[Jesse Weber]

I know, but the same thing for criminals out there in general. They don't care about the other person. They care about themselves. And I see this in murder cases all the time. The time they kill someone, do they think about the impact that that had on the person's, Their family, the loved ones? I mean, think about going back to Luigi case. Okay, Whoever killed Brian Thompson, do they think about what effect that had on his family and outside of his work as the CEO of UnitedHealCare. And by the way, do you even believe that the work he was doing was detrimental on a personal level to the people that affected you or whatever it might be? I mean, these are human beings, and criminals don't think that way, really. And that's. That's what's very scary about society. I think that's one of the interests that people have in true crime in general.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, it's really been. That was one thing I wanted to ask you about earlier. Now is a good time. Over the past 10, 12 years, you've seen such a boom in that topic. And it's ironic because, like, when you get to the really bloody stuff, like when it's all murders and things like that, it's like, what, 85% women are into it.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Like, what do you think that is?

[Jesse Weber]

So, first of all, I think the interest really sparked during. Well, there was. There was always being big cases. Right. There was the Menendez Brothers, was O.J. simpson. It was things like that. But I think it was serial. You remember serial back in 2014, it was the Adan Sed case. There's. There's an interest in it. It's a mystery. It's human drama. It's a side of protection. How do we protect ourselves from the evil in this world? And it's good guys versus bad guys. It's a tale as old as time. People will always want it, point the finger. You see it in politics. You see it everywhere. Who's the bad guy? Who's the good guy? Who do I side with? Want justice for people? It's, these are real life stories about it. And when you deal and look, that's, I think, an interest. When you see, you know, killers, either female killers or male killers, there's an interesting. But I also think there are those to circle back who believe that people commit crimes but they can change them. Right. You know, those, those killers who get fan mail and who get remarried and there's interest. I mean, they're fascinating studies about why people do this. If, you know, going back to the Brian Coburger case, the guy accused of killing the Idaho four, those four students.

[Podcast Host Julian]

He'S like going on trial right now, right?

[Jesse Weber]

It's going to be happening soon. Soon. If he did it, why on earth did he do that? He had no connection to them from what we could see. Did he have an interest in criminology? He had an interest in what it felt like. People are fascinated by the human mind and why people do what they do. And that's not going to change. And it's really interesting to see because with the advent of podcasts and YouTube and documentaries, you're able to tell these stories in different ways and engage people in different ways and make them think about cases in different ways on their own time. You know, particularly about podcasts, it's like you can pick it up at one point, pick it up later. And I think Mint is still 15amonth for premium wireless.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And if you haven't made the switch.

[Jesse Weber]

Yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two, seriously, it's $15 a month month. Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses it. Are you, are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Okay, give it a try.

[Jesse Weber]

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[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. Now you're obviously trained in law. That was your background and that's where your career started. But you've been on the other side now in the media for a while. So you're not in the courtroom as the defense attorney or the prosecutor or whatever. And you're looking at a million cases. Like we said, it's like the red zone of legal cases.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But you're looking at all these cases and you're looking at the worst ones. You've mentioned a bunch of them today. Whether it be, you know, grizzly murders or sexual abuse of kids and stuff like that. Like how do you, does it ever just drive you nuts? Because you're breaking down these cases. You're going as deep into the legal paperwork and the evidence that you're allowed to be able to see. Like how do you.

[Jesse Weber]

Mentally.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, mentally.

[Jesse Weber]

I, I'm human. So I, I host the show called sidebar and I happened last week I was talking about a really, really bad case. I'm not even gonn it because same thing will happen. I like, I teared up. Like I can't control it. When it's about children. It's like it tears. I can't, I can't deal with it.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It's like kids.

[Jesse Weber]

No, not yet. But like, you know, I just, it's, I'm like talking about, I'm getting emotional. Like I really, it's. You're talking about people who are as innocent as can be, they deserve a chance at life. And if they're born into a situation where they're immediately abused or they're killed, it's like, you can't have somebody more defenseless. And, and to see these monsters out there do it, it's, it gets you angry. Now, I deal with a lot of tough subject matter. I've been doing it for years. I try to focus on the legal issues, the facts, try to create that separation. When I'm not working on it, I completely put it to bed. I don't watch true crime documentaries. I don't watch this. I try to forget it, try to think about something else, because you have to for your own sake. It's, it's really, it's tough. It's really, really tough stuff. And sometimes I, I, I say to myself, I say it on air too. I'm like, I wish I was making this up, but I'm not. Like, you can't believe what people are capable of, and that's a really scary thing. And, and by the way, like, you know, you hope that with the advent of technology, phones, email, surveillance footage, it's harder to commit crimes than it was, particularly by, because we cover a number of cases where, where, you know, female teachers abusing students. Why are we seeing that so much? Is there something going on? There's a proliferation of it, or is it just they are getting caught? Because everything's on social media, everything's on their phone. It's not so easy to commit these crimes. And thank goodness. Which is why when the Mangioni case happened, like, to commit a murder like that, commit a killing like that in a metropolitan city where there are cameras everywhere. I was shocked that the, you know, the suspect got away on a city bike. On a city bike. I mean, it was crazy. Crazy. But you hope that with the advent of technology, it makes it harder.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, I think about that a lot because you're, you're like a GPS tracking device everywhere you go.

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, and by the way, if you turn it off and you leave it home and you commit a crime, well, why'd you turn it off at that point? Why did it come back on at that time? That's, that's the Coburger case, right? Coburger case.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Wait, I don't know about this.

[Jesse Weber]

So, so the Coburger case, they don't say his phone was with him during the times of the killings. They say, say the phone was traveling towards the area of the killings and then turned off. Turned off for a Period of time and then happened to turn back on after they're killed, headed towards the direction of your home. Weird. Weird time for the phone to be off.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Very weird.

[Jesse Weber]

Wouldn't you say?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yes.

[Jesse Weber]

So that's this thing. This thing right here. It's the. The number one piece of evidence for prosecutors.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. You almost wonder how they. How there are cases that can't be solved at this point strictly because of that. Just because it's like. But then it gets down to you have to be able to have evidence to get. To get a search warrant and stuff. And. And, you know, you could be fishing in a city like New York. You'd be fishing through a million people. And how many people are you going to get that warrant on? Not a lot.

[Jesse Weber]

Or you. You. I'll give you another example. So have you heard of the Karen Reed case?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Wait, yes. What'd she do again?

[Jesse Weber]

Is this in the. Boston? Boston. Boston, yeah. Yeah. So there's a case. I won't go into all the specifics, but there's a case she's accused of running over her police officer boyfriend, John o' Keefe can leave him to die in the snow. So if you look at evidence like her phone or whatever, like, you would see that she either she dropped him off at a location and then drove away. Okay. Or backed up over him, but you don't know. The phone's not going to tell you whether or not she ran him over, but it says she was there. Then it becomes a question of what's the physical evidence, what's the, you know, the witness testimony. But the phone will only tell you so much. So it might place somebody in a certain position or. Or. And by the way, you see defense attorneys all the time saying phone Data is not 100% accurate. I can't say this, but. But, like, it helps, but it won't, you know, solve every crime. There are those, though, man, the biggest idiots in the world who commit a crime. And then they Google.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, yeah, the guy who googled how to, like, dispose of a dead body.

[Jesse Weber]

Weird. You're looking up that at that time. Like, it's like you. And then they go, well, someone else might have had his phone and just happened to be looking at it at that time.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Time.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, it's like.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It's like the old, I've been hacked. Yeah, after you say something stupid.

[Jesse Weber]

Well, look, AI, I don't know. I don't know. AI is crazy now. I don't know what's going to be with that.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Well, is that. That's Actually, a good question.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Podcast Host Julian]

That could. That could potentially affect some things. Meaning, like, it could. People could hack into other people's phones and stuff using AI. I don't even know what this looks like.

[Jesse Weber]

No, they don't even have to hack. They could. Couldn't they create a video where it looks like somebody did something or, like now? But. But here's what I'm hoping for. Okay, here's what I'm hoping for. That. As the technology advances, so does the technology to detect when something is AI. And you also can have other evidence. Like if your phone says you're somewhere else, you're going to believe this video, you're going to believe the phone.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Right.

[Jesse Weber]

It'll complicate it, but I don't think we're quite at that point yet, hopefully. It's scary, though.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It's very scary.

[Jesse Weber]

It's getting really tough to see that LeBron video. Video.

[Podcast Host Julian]

No.

[Jesse Weber]

So you know the whole beef with LeBron and Stephen A. Smith.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, yeah.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. So there was a video that was posted, I think, like a month ago where LeBron talked about. Again, this is. This was fake. I thought it was real. It was all on social media. Like, he comes, he goes, yeah, I confronted Stephen A. Smith. He was talking. Yeah. I was like, he said this. He said this. And then. And I saw to my brother, he goes, no, it's fake. I was like, oh, is it like. I thought it was real. I was like, oh, it's not so fat. I was like, I thought it was him.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, my God.

[Jesse Weber]

Tell me I'm not the only one.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Who thought that that was. I have to look at a lot of these videos two, three times. I'm like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's usually because it's so ridiculous. Once I put the lines together, I'm like, okay.

[Jesse Weber]

I mean, yes. There's like, you know, Trump, Gaza. That video where you're like, okay, that's. You didn't see the Trump, Gaza.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Trump Gaza video.

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, my gosh.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Can we pull this up on Twitter? This is why this is.

[Jesse Weber]

Okay, so to give a little comment context, this was, of course, about President Trump's idea to create Gaza, you know, as like a theme park and investment. So if you look up, like. I think you can look it up on. On X. Like, Trump. Trump. Yeah. Trump, Gaza. AI video. Yeah, let's. Where is it? Go to videos. It's probably. Yeah. I mean, that's the. Yeah. I just got to go to videos of it.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. Try media. Media.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. Okay. You see that one? 34 to left to the left.

[Podcast Host Julian]

34 seconds.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

All right, let's turn, let's turn this on.

[Jesse Weber]

You could tell this is AI, but.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, I know this one.

[Jesse Weber]

But look, I mean, you could tell it's AI because once you see Trump and everybody. Yeah, it's also hilarious. But.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh my God, look, that's Elon. Jesus Christ.

[Jesse Weber]

But yeah, I mean, this looks fake. Hold it. I mean, he posted this, by the way.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Of course he did. Oh my God.

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, that's Elon again. Elon again, yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, the. Oh, the gold statue like Saddam.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, see? Okay, see, so that's. Yeah, that was.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, Netanyahu and him.

[Jesse Weber]

So you could see, you could see it looks like them, but yeah, but there's other ones. You just don't know.

[Podcast Host Julian]

There, there was someone put together a, A short film that was just creepy.

[Jesse Weber]

This was, it was all AI.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, this had to. And, and they said it at the front. They said, hey, you know, AI Studios or whatever. But it was like, it was a, it was around the election and it was a spoof of. Of Eyes Wide Shut and they. I mean, you name a person that from recent history, whether it be Trump or Clinton or, or Kamala or Epstein or whoever, just had all these people in the video, like going to this meeting with the weird music and it was actually like kind of good.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And I was like, oh my God.

[Jesse Weber]

Are you an actor? Do you do.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I thought about it. I actually read A Dream of Passion in college and really, really considered doing it. The Straw, the Strasbourg, because you were talking about that earlier. And I decided against it like my senior year of college. So I never ended up doing it.

[Jesse Weber]

Well, I don't know what the profession's. If it's really get so good. Like if you.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Okay.

[Jesse Weber]

I love Tom Cruise. Love Tom Cruise. I think he's great actor. Great, great actor.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Weirdo.

[Jesse Weber]

Great actor, great actor. I'll watch anything. You know, he's getting older. Yes. He's still running around doing stuff. But if you could take an AI video and you make him 35 and he's doing his stunts, at the very least, at the very least, you know, have him do the, the. You know, I mean, is that the future of it? If you pay the actor for the rights to use their image, the name and.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Well, if he were still. Let's say he's not like a decrepit 95 year old man and was like right now and he couldn't do certain things if it were still him. Like remember how they cgi, Dairo and Pacino for. For the Irishman.

[Jesse Weber]

Let's. Come on, please. The scene where he's beating the guy up outside and he does the little kick. He does the little kick. I'm like, I love, I love, I love. They're like. They're like, come here, young man. Come here, young man. You're a young man, man. You got a good future ahead of you. Like, am I the only one? What are we talking about here?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Well, they were. They were trying to make that. I was following that movie from when I was like 10 years old. It was based on a book called so I hear you. You paint houses.

[Jesse Weber]

Yes.

[Podcast Host Julian]

They were trying to make that for, like 17 years and they just waited too long.

[Jesse Weber]

Yes, they did.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It was still really good. The cgi, that was cgi, though. But, like, imagine that, like, Cruz is with it. He's not like, you know, Gene Hackman was At the end, 95 years old or something, and he could do all the acting, but, you know, his legs don't move the same. So you AI'd how he moved. That could work. That said, if it were just AI recreating Tom Cruise, this is where I'd love your opinion. It's like, to me, there's something about the fact that, you know, it's a human being. Tom Cruise, When I'm watching a Tom Cruise movie right now versus, like, I know that's actually just AI, Tom Cruise, that takes away the magic of it.

[Jesse Weber]

Acting's all about. About humans. It's all about that, you know, that human connection. And you know, some of the best scenes in movies in Glorious Bastards, right? It's not action. It's watching that scene at the beginning, that conversation, looking at their eyes. Acting is all about eyes. You are going to lose that if it's AI. I 100% agree. I will say I thought the interesting way they did it was the new Indiana Jones movie. You say what happened?

[Podcast Host Julian]

I haven't seen this stuff.

[Jesse Weber]

So in the first 15 minutes, it's a flashback back. And actually, I don't know, you probably can't show. But the first. The first 15 minutes, it's Harrison Ford's body, younger face. It looks. It's Harris. It's like Harrison Ford at 35. It's. You wouldn't know the difference. You would not know it's a difference.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And he's doing it right?

[Jesse Weber]

So I don't remember if they. They had. They might. They might have had a younger actor. I don't know how they did it, but I remember it was his face with his, it was, excuse me, his, his current body with a younger face. And it was incredible. It looked like, it looked like they filmed it in the 90s or the 80s. Like he, you couldn't tell. It was incredible. And I'm wondering if that's the future because you know, they could have probably done a whole Harrison Ford movie as him. Young Harrison Ford as young Indiana Jones. Is that the future? I don't know.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, you're, you're, you're hitting a lot of things that I'm pretty passionate about too as far as like how I look at this stuff. But like the. One of my favorite quotes ever is Al Pacino said it. I don't know if he came up with it though. I feel like it might have been something before that. But he said it's easy to fool the eyes, it's hard to fool the heart. And that's the real.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Trouble with this stuff because it's like, you know, that sounds like if it's actually Harrison Ford and you just made him look younger and it actually looked real that he looked younger. But he's doing the job. Okay, I can get with that. But if it's just like an AI movie like that, that example I gave of the Eyes Wide Shut Up Spoop. It's funny and very interesting and like kind of good. But if it were just a real movie I would, you know, it was a two minute reel. You know what I mean?

[Jesse Weber]

That's what separates a great movie from like you can have two action scenes, right? You could have a shootout and one a shootout other. But one's a B rated movie, one's an A rated movie because of the acting and your connection to the characters and that's all that it is. So yeah, I hope for you, hopefully it's one of those situations that's were not replaced by AI immediately.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And there's you know, the eyes of the windows to the soul. And I will say when I the way that I built this podcast, the only reason I exist is because at a time when no podcasts were even making shorts, let alone stuff that was like even halfway good, I was like, that's how I could do this. So I was making shorts and making movies out of them and I would scroll because I very bad OCD I for a 35 second clip I would spend 30, 35 hours on it. Usually closer to about 25. But like if it was were a really good one because I would go through on mute on YouTube B roll in HD of just things that I could match together to make the story right. So I would reinvent. I might take, like, the movie Apocalypto and a bunch of scenes from that and mix it with as dumb as this sounds, like the Rock in Jumanji, because it's a similar setting and be able to match that to the stories that Paul Rosley told in episode 125 for. And make a movie that's based on the literal words he's saying. It's happening on the screen. So what I would do is I would just watch these things on mute because I didn't want to hear what the people were saying, because then it would, like, up my head, like, because I'd be like, well, that's something different that's happening. I kind of wanted to make it like a fever dream. And so I learned more than ever just what makes the greatest actors and actresses what they are. And the number one thing is their eyes. They either got it or they don't. And you talk about that in Glorious Bastard scene, that part where they zoom in to Christopher Waltz, Christoph Waltz, and his eyes. His face just sinks a little bit like. Or are you sheltering enemies of the state?

[Jesse Weber]

You're like. Or the scene when he's. One of my favorite scenes is when he's making. Read the strudel. Like they're at the. The dinner. And he's just like. He goes, I have one more thing I had to ask you. And he just stares you. But I don't remember what I was, by the way. So you have. You have Godfather behind you, right? No better scene, in my opinion, about Otto Eyes then Godfather one. Michael, you know, him thinking about if he's gonna pull out the gun, if he's ever going to do this. You know, it was all eyes. It was all eyes. And it wasn't overacting. It was like, you are 100 believing. Like, what is he about to do? The tension's building. And, yeah, I think that's. It's a great scene.

[Podcast Host Julian]

That's why they didn't fire him. They went and did that scene. I don't know if you know that story, but they were literally like, Coppola was fighting for him every day. The studio's like, no, it. We don't like, like, what. The scenes we're seeing. So we're gonna fire him. And Copal had moved that scene up. He said, we're filming this today. And him and Aletary went in there and filmed it. And then they showed the. They showed the studio bosses and they were like, okay, he can stay.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Because it's just like.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, it's perfect. I didn't know they didn't like it. They didn't want him like all the.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Little, like when he goes in the bathroom, he just like holds it, you.

[Jesse Weber]

Know, like, oh, he fixes his hair. Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And, and you're watching him from behind, you just see like the weight of the world, like he's about to shift into this new world.

[Jesse Weber]

How. When, when did you first see the Godfather?

[Podcast Host Julian]

When I was 13. Okay. I've seen it about 1500 times.

[Jesse Weber]

Okay, you look, you, you're, you're, you're a young looking guy. That could be like 10 years. I don't. Okay. But I won't ask you your age, but here's what's funny. So my, the reason I say it is my wife, my wife's younger than me. My wife has never seen the Godfather.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh my.

[Jesse Weber]

So, so I said, so I said, okay, let, we're going to watch it and I'm curious. A movie that, that's how many and how old are we talking now? 50 years old?

[Podcast Host Julian]

1972.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. Okay.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I nuked myself a coffee.

[Jesse Weber]

It's. It's okay. I said to her, I was like, we're going to watch it and I'm curious if it'll hold up. She loved it. She was. When the car blew up from Apollonia. Apollonia. She was like heartbroken, like she could. That movie is one of the few. And I say this with songs too. We got good songs and good musicians. But I, you know, what will last the test of time? 10 years down the road 20 years down the road the road you wonder what a movie will be like. A song that will last the test of time. That's one of those movies. It's just never gets old.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It looks like it was made yesterday.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Especially with it because they, you know, it's saved at the AFI and they've digitally been able to remaster every single part to make it perfect. Blu Ray. Everything about it looks like it's made tomorrow or made yesterday. It is a perfect movie. Every actor in there, who was even many of them unknown at the time, became a global superstar righteously so. And did a million amazing movies after that. That's like sometimes I just look at it and I'm saying to myself, I know they were miserable while they were making it because all the stress behind the scenes, but at the end of that you still gotta look at it and go, whoa.

[Jesse Weber]

Like semesters.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I can't Believe we did that.

[Jesse Weber]

There's only one error in the movie.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You know, when James Kahn is kicking.

[Jesse Weber]

Him and he misses, he misses. He misses. He misses. How they had. They missed that?

[Podcast Host Julian]

I mean, well, he and Johnny. Because I had Johnny. Yeah, they.

[Jesse Weber]

Did you ask him about that?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Well, they did. I didn't ask him specifically about the miss. I don't think on camera. I didn't definitely talking about that, though. But, you know, they. They did hate each other. That was real. Like, the two of them did not get along. And so that scene, it's funny because he misses when he's. When he's hitting, he takes the trash barrel and like, technically hits it on.

[Jesse Weber]

The rail and he misses the punch.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And then he misses the punch. But in that scene, he did actually do a lot of real. And he broke Johnny's wrist.

[Jesse Weber]

Kicked him.

[Podcast Host Julian]

He kicked him.

[Jesse Weber]

I think I heard that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

So it was like a. It was like, of all the places where you're gonna get something fake, you got it in the scene where he actually accidentally did it completely real, too. So it's like a little bit of irony.

[Jesse Weber]

By the way, one of the things they teach you in acting school is, like, how to. It's. It's mostly like stage acting, and then it can translate into movies, but they teach you how to do fake fighting. And it was my favorite. So it's like. Like, that is like you. It's how you face somebody and they'll do a punch, but the way you're positioned, you'll. It's like. Like, you'll. It'll be like a real slap. And it's awesome because it looks entirely real. And you do a whole choreographed fight in one class that I did. And the. I mean, you wouldn't. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Like, it looks really good. Well, but I also. I also kicked somebody back, like. Oh, you did? I stayed. He's like. He's like. You went a little. You get him. Yeah, and he's a nice guy. I felt bad, but, yeah, I kicked him a little bit. I was like, I'm not. I'm not.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I'm not. Why.

[Jesse Weber]

I'm not an actor.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But on the. In the movies, though, shout out also to the. To the cinematographers when they have, like, those really complex scenes, like, especially in war movies, where there's a million things happening and there's actually weaponry and stuff, and somehow they make it look like it's not just. Ah, okay, stop.

[Jesse Weber]

Well, how they do John Wick. I mean, it's incredible, right? It's incredible. Or Daredevil. I mean, I think those are some of the best fights. Like, but, like, I don't know how they do that stuff. It's incredible. What a science that that is.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. John Wick, though, also, Keanu Legit is nasty with a gun. Like, he trained his ass off for that. Like, when he goes out, I don't know if you've seen the videos of him shooting.

[Jesse Weber]

He's amazing. He's amazing.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I mean, there's probably Navy seals. I. I don't want to speak for him. That look at that and go, he.

[Jesse Weber]

He's legit. He could, like, if, like, there was an attack going down, give him a weapon. Yeah, he's. He's good. He's good. He's really John. He's really John Wick. Yeah. He's making another one. There's going to be John Wick. Five. Another one. Five. Five. Yeah. Do 10, do 10. Do 10. Dead. 10. Yeah. It age. They're going to reverse aging, I believe in the next 20 years, I think they're going to figure out a way to reverse the cell. The cellular.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I don't know enough about the science to give a clear opinion on that, but I think we are. I don't ignore a timeline, but I think we're on a trend line towards something like that.

[Jesse Weber]

I think that. I think that's fair. Yeah, we're in a good time to do that. I mean. I mean, everything else is a disaster, but why not? We'll be able to live for a long time as everything's going. Going on. Yeah, it's fine.

[Podcast Host Julian]

100.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. It feels like. It feels like we're kind of at that. I don't want to say, like, tipping point, but I think people have been filled with enough fighting and enough over the past, say, 10, 15 years that there is. There's now. What's the word I'm looking for? It's settled in enough that there are enough people kind of like, what the. I'm just gonna live my life.

[Jesse Weber]

Well, you hope. You hope. And I mean, you hope that that's. It's actually interesting. Like, so I do politics as well. I do.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You do.

[Jesse Weber]

I fill in for Dan Abrams on Sirius xm. I do hosting for them. I also host another show on this thing called Mediaite.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Is there anything you don't do?

[Jesse Weber]

I'm working constantly. Constantly. And I do the show called Spin Room and, like, what we try to do, and I work for News Nation and what we try to do is literally down the middle. Like, there's more that we agree on than we disagree on. And even if we can disagree, can you have a normal conversation about it and, like, really understand the other side? Easier said than done. I think that it's a really. It's a time right now when emotions are heated. And by the way, just to circle back, I think one of the reasons you see the popularity of certain shows, you see the popularity of certain trials like Johnny Depp, Amber Heard, or Blake Lively, Ryan Robert Reynolds, Justin Baldon, is because people need it. They need that outlet. They need something to distract away from something else. And by the way, people are tribal. They love. So. So just let me tell you about this. So the Justin Baldoni, Blake Lively thing.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You know they filmed all that right here, right?

[Jesse Weber]

Is that where it was Hoboken.

[Podcast Host Julian]

When I moved here, they were filming.

[Jesse Weber]

Did you watch it?

[Podcast Host Julian]

I. I can't get myself to watch that movie. Oh, no.

[Jesse Weber]

I mean, did you see them filming?

[Podcast Host Julian]

I did not see them. I saw Chalamet. He was filming on the street.

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, he's a. He's a. He's a. He's a real talent. He's a. He's like the next big one. But. So we posted a poll on long Crime. At this point in time, how many of you agree with Blake Lively and how many of you agree with Justin Baldoni? 95% or 97% were favoring Justin Baldoni. I mean, so this is tribal. People take sides and they have very, like, when I'll do a video on sidebar and long crime and I, you know, present both sides. I present an argument in her. In her favor. Like, this is her argument. This is her filing. Let me break it down. You're biased. You're by. You're in here camp. Like, everybody's going crazy.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Crazy Team Justin.

[Jesse Weber]

It's nuts. It's nuts. But that's like, you know, I don't know if it's a distraction or people just need those sides. The good guys, the bad guys. It's again, as I said, talos older the time.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I think part of it is a little bit of a meaning of life crisis. Yeah, that's fair for some people because we now, in the Internet era, we have access to all the perfect lives and stuff like that. And so 99.999% of us don't have those lives. And so what we feel like what we're doing in our world, whether it be just our life at home or what our job is, feels less Sexy than ever before. Things we wouldn't have thought about 30 years ago. That I think people kind of turn that inward and then project it outward. And, you know, they have to feel comfortable, like they're on the teams with these people. And people form communities online. And now you, like you said, you get communities on legal cases that. This one hasn't even happened yet.

[Jesse Weber]

No, but a lot has been put forward.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. What's. All right, so let's. Let's get into that. We'll come back to Diddy at some point. But what. What is going on here? They filmed this movie called. It Ends with us here in Hoboken, a lot of it. And your favorite movie I haven't seen, but he is the director and co.

[Jesse Weber]

Star with her, so. So he formed this production company called Wayfarer Studios that produced the film. He's the director and co star. He was the one who was responsible for getting adapted from a book into a movie. He was ahead of the whole thing. And it was interesting because when the movie was in production, but really more so when the movie was about to air, was. Was about to premiere. Premiere last summer, you saw all this stuff online about bad blood between him and her. And you didn't know exactly what was going on, but you saw these rumors. Something's going on with Blake Lively. Justin Baldoni, he's not attending the premiere. What's happening?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Were you already looking at this? Because you're like this.

[Jesse Weber]

My wife was watching on social media and was like, every five seconds, it was stuff about Blake Lively. And there was a lot of negative attention for Blake Lively. There was negative stories. Her old interviews were surfacing. There was a lot of anti Blake Lively stuff, sentiment. And I was like, oh, that's. You know, it's interesting. So you fast forward to December, and she files a legal complaint. Not a lawsuit yet. A legal complaint. It's with the Civil Rights Department of California. It's in not to bog down, but in order to file a lawsuit, you need to do that first for this kind of labor dispute. So she files this complaint, and she basically says, you know why I was getting all that bad press? It was Justin Baldoni and his team. They launched a smear campaign against me, an online digital media smear campaign against me. Amplifying negative voices, amplifying negative stories. And you know why? Because I complained about him sexually harassing me on the set. This is a guy. This is her allegations. This is a guy who came forward, would improvise intimate scenes with me. He would talk about pornography he was very inappropriate. And I reported my concerns and they agreed to make changes. And out of fear that I would go public, even though I didn't, didn't. They retaliated against me, tried to smear my whole reputation. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. And she has the text messages to prove it, because through a subpoena, she got all these text messages between people on Justin Baldoni side, his PR people, his crisis management person. And there was arguably a case that they were trying to create a, you know, a smear campaign against her, a public relations campaign against her, you know, and I look at this lawsuit, Hollywood looks at this list, this complaint, and I was like, oh, my gosh, she's the victim in all this. Now I understand why there was this negative stories.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But hold on. To cut you off, though. Sorry.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

At the same time, wasn't this when the movie was like premiering and she's forcing him into the basement, everything. So could it have been a pre shot or something?

[Jesse Weber]

So. So I will get to that. So she would be make the argument. I was a professional, I did what I had to do. Even all this was going on, you know, the premieres happening, and I didn't realize, ah. She would say, I didn't know the extent of why I was getting all this bad press until I started realizing it might have been his side. And then she gets a subpoena and she gets all this information, she puts it out there. And then two days later or a day later, the New York Times publishes a piece about all this. You know, Justin Baldoni loses his talent agency, he loses awards that he gets got. You know, it seems like a classic case of, my gosh, another. Another creep in Hollywood. Right? Another creep in Hollywood. And then Justin Baldoni fires back and he goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is not the story. Files a lawsuit against the New York Times. Blake Lively, Ryan Reynolds was. I got the proof that not only did I not sexually harass her, not only did she taking out of context every conversation we ever had, had and I'll show you, but also, she was the one who bullied me. She was the one who actually kicked me out of my own film, took control over the movie, prevented me and my family and friends from attending the premiere, and weaponized false allegations against me. She's the one who's at fault. So it's. I've seen cases before where something can look black and white. This is like the grayest case I've ever seen. Now what happened is his team Going back to the idea of how much is important in the court of law versus the court of public opinion. Because I think they're both trying to rehabilitate their career. Careers, of course. His team puts out this video, this footage of them behind the scenes. She had said before in her previous filing, he started sniffing me, as you know, she smells so good. He was improvising kiss scenes. It was weird. Well, when he publishes the video where.

[Podcast Host Julian]

She'S like grabbing them and pulling them in.

[Jesse Weber]

You see in the video, she talks about her spray tan. So he goes, oh, it smells good. That's different than him coming up there and be like, oh, you smell so good. Different kinds of context. She starts making fun of his nose, saying he basically needs surgery. Okay. She starts.

[Podcast Host Julian]

She.

[Jesse Weber]

She's like, now, now her side would say she's uncomfortable. You can see she's uncomfortable with him. He's like, she's the one who got personal. That's, you know, two different sides of the story here. It's going to be up to a jury to decide. And then they post text messages that he had with Ryan Reynolds where Ryan Reynolds was praising him. He claims that Ryan Reynolds and Taylor Swift. Swift had pressured him into accepting Blake Lively's rewrites of a key scene. So it's a big, big PR legal mess.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Wait, Taylor Swift? Yeah, Stepping in. I know she's friends with her pressure.

[Jesse Weber]

So she's not a defendant in this case whatsoever. She's not named. But the allegation is from Justin Baldoni. Look, Blake Lively, Ryan Reynolds are a list stars. And they start coming to me. She wants to make changes to the script. I'm trying. I don't want to give her full control, but I don't know what to do. I'm not their level. Like, if they want to make changes, I. I'll try to push back lightly. And when I tried to push back, Blake Lively comes back and feels like I didn't really feel like you accepted my changes. So. So he makes the allegation. He was invited to her penthouse one night and he shows up and Ryan Reynolds and Taylor Swift there. And like, I'm paraphrasing, but basically, like, wasn't Blake's rewrites of that scene just great? Isn't she have such a great mind? And so he felt the pressure from a listers like them. Now, Taylor Swift does not want any part. Part of this. Ryan Reynolds has been trying to get dismissed from this case. He's like, anything. He goes, I have no part in this. And there was an allegation where he's.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Trying to get dismissed from the case that he filed.

[Jesse Weber]

He didn't file that.

[Podcast Host Julian]

That, that. That Baldoni filed against him.

[Jesse Weber]

Yes, because he. He wasn't a part of the case that his wife filed against Baldoni. He was it. Baldoni turned around and filed a lawsuit against Blake Lively and Ryan Reynolds. That's how he got broke. And the reason is because Baldoni says, not only do I feel like he got himself involved, but B, he went to the talent. My talent agency and said I'm a sexual predator. And he basically. Yeah. And what's interesting is Ryan Reynolds has made the counter argument I should be dismissed. Because even if I said that, first of all, that's not defamation, and B, it was my opinion, I actually believed it. And also, I should be protected under the law from these kind of like, retaliatory lawsuits when I'm just. It's my free speech right to say what I said. So it's a big back and forth about who's going to be dismissed. And you have the New York Times involved and you have all this. This is a trial that's scheduled for 2026, if it happens.

[Podcast Host Julian]

2026. Christ, we got to talk about this another year.

[Jesse Weber]

And it's been a big battle in the court of public opinion. And right now there are people who believe that from what they've seen so far, without the full picture, and each lawsuit's like over 100 pages there. People have read all of it. They believe he's in the right and she's in the right. Wrong. There are also those in Hollywood who believe she's in the right, he's in the wrong. So it's going to be, you know, I keep getting this question, do they want to go to trial? Do they want to go to trial? I think it's a risk, you know, her going on the stand, him going on the stand. There's. Now, I don't believe. Yeah, there would be no cameras in this courtroom because it would also be in New York. So, again.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But it's state court. Right.

[Jesse Weber]

No cameras in state court unless it. Very limited circumstances. New York. Yeah, it's a problem. So I don't, you know, it'll be interesting to see if it goes to trial. There's a lot riding on it. I don't think Ryan Reynolds wants any part of it in this.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, because he's like, he's got a perfect public brand prior to this.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, right.

[Podcast Host Julian]

He's like Mr. Deadpool, lovable to the fans. Like the greatest marketer in Hollywood among the actors, arguably.

[Jesse Weber]

I'm a huge fan. You know, but she had to do this because she was like, my career was tanking. People were doing all this negative press about me. Well, guess what? If you take her allegations as true, I'm the victim. Now, now, if his allegations are true, you don't say. Why would you file a lawsuit against Justin Baldoni knowing he had all this to prove that you were the one taking control of the film or you were the one who were weaponizing false allegations? But look, I don't. You don't know what to believe. The truth is, you have no idea what happened. It all goes down to one thing. Whether or not he actually sexually harassed her on that set. And you made a great point before about the Combs case. You said, can't two things be true at once? There could be instances where they're jovial, they're collaborative, they're joking around about things. They're personal. Personal. But it doesn't give somebody the right to step over the line. And that can be one instance. Two instances can be.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Or it's misinterpreted, too.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. Yeah. So it's. I don't know. It's. I just try to present both sides. I try to present the legal arguments for both sides. They're represented by incredible attorneys making some really good legal arguments.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. She just hired a CIA guy to be her pr.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, he was high up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a lot at stake here. And if you're Justin Baldoni, I mean, mean, you know, his career's over at.

[Podcast Host Julian]

The moment if he does not win this.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. And. But again, with public attention, you know, favoring him, you wonder if it helped him a little bit. I mean, he's really in the news all the time.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people had never heard of him before.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And now he's like, I didn't watch.

[Jesse Weber]

Him on that show. What was. I don't remember. He was on some show.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Definitely didn't. You know, but the. I think there's two underlying themes here. And this. This isn't a statement to say, like, who's right or who's wrong in the case, even before you look at the actual facts of the case. On one side, you have. I'll just even remove Ryan Reynolds for a minute. Just call Blake Lively. Enough. On one side, you have Blake Lively, superstar, Taylor Swift's best friend. A list of the. A list gazillionaire. And then. Fuck it. Yeah. Her husband's Ryan, Ryan Reynolds too. They are the creme de la creme. The elite, if you will. On the other side you have the guy who started his own production company is a lot less known. He's not perfect looking. He's got a little bit of a beak nose. And sudden you don't think he's a good looking guy. No, I think he's a good looking dude, but he's not like a, he's not a. He's not an 11 Hollywood heartthrob.

[Jesse Weber]

Right.

[Podcast Host Julian]

So like he's, he's relatable. He's like, he's an underdog.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Is my point. Yeah, yeah, right. And at the same time, this is happening two years after the Dep Heard thing that flipped on its face, the idea that it could always just be the man abusing the woman. So you have two things happening. You have a cultural shift in how we view abuse cases. Not across the board, but just like as maybe this is a possibility too. And you have this like underdog versus the elites mentality. So before you even look at the case, people are. They see themselves in that guy more than they do in the perfect Hollywood couple.

[Jesse Weber]

Right, right, right. I think that's a very, very fair assessment. I think it's, it's. We've, we've also live in a culture right now where nothing is what it seems on its face. There's always like, well, what, what's really going on? Well, if you do a little bit more research and sometimes that's good, sometimes it's not. And, and it comes down to, it comes down to the law and the evidence. Look, I, I think you, you go back to Johnny Depp. Amber Heard he had a incredible defense team. He put on an incredibly strong argument. He muddied the waters a lot.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And he also hired a hot lawyer.

[Jesse Weber]

That helped. Well, you know, look, she became a superstar after that. She got like, became partner, by the way. They, they all became celebrities. Ben Shu, his attorney, good friend of mine, like, they all are, are, are superstars. And that is a big thing for lawyers. You know, I mean, that helps. That helps you become a big name. Start with Johnny Cochran. Johnny Cochran, right.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I mean, love don't fit. You must to quit.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. You interviewed Brian McMonagle, right?

[Podcast Host Julian]

I love that. You know that. 115.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. Brian's awesome. He's a, you know, he's a big name. He made his name with Cosby. I mean, I mean, he made his name for a lot, but he was, you know, very well known for Cosby.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But like you want to say, he's one of the greatest guys ever, too.

[Jesse Weber]

He is awesome and he's brilliant. He's. We're luck. I'm lucky to have the opportunity to get it, you know, get his legal perspective. He's.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, you do often.

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, yeah. On sidebar a lot. Particularly about Diddy and other high profile cases. Because it's different. It's different representing a criminal defendant versus also representing. Representing a high profile celebrity criminal defendant. It's very different. But he's. He's brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant League of mind.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I've known him since I was like three or four years old.

[Jesse Weber]

Really.

[Podcast Host Julian]

He's from my hometown.

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, well, tell my side.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, really. Really. His. He and his wife are really tight with. With my parents, so I've known him forever. But I really appreciated that. Sit down. I did with him because he's. He's tough to get going. He's such a humble guy. Like, he's, He's a brilliant talker, like, in the courtroom, but he's one of those guys where it's like, he'll talk for five minutes and look. Look at you and go, your turn. You know, on a podcast. But, you know, I'd always looked at him and he was such a, like, growing up. He's literally like the greatest guy ever. And the most moral guy, too, is how I would describe him. But. And he would not be able to say this on camera, but I can say this is not being him. A lot of people he defends probably are guilty. And so I was so curious, like, how, how he could put that apart. And the way he described it in that podcast was so perfect and like, the heaviness with which he approaches it.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Not just from the perspective of, like, the people involved, be it the victims and also, you know, whose life is on the line in the courtroom, but also the, the constitutional aspect of it of, like, all right, you. Your job is to put the government to the test.

[Jesse Weber]

Yep.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Because that's how the system works, works and like it. We need guys like that sitting in that seat and, and doing the job he does.

[Jesse Weber]

It's not an easy job. Not an easy job. Particularly, you know, if you, if you're defending the worst of the worst. I mean, you become a target. You put a target on your back. It's not easy. So I give him a ton of credit. He's brilliant. I think it re. Emphasizes the idea everybody's entitled to due process and, you know, even cases. Like, I, I talk about this on news Nation a lot. The whole immigration issue. And, and like, you know, you can have a conversation that there are people who don't belong in this country, criminals do not belong in this country. But we have a system in place. There is due process put in place. You have to follow those protocols before certain actions can be taken. Yes, that's just the way our system is. You want to change the laws, you want to change the system, Go right ahead.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yes.

[Jesse Weber]

But you got to go through Congress to do it. And so, you know, our system is in place where, you know, even if it seems all the evidence is there to convict somebody, they still deserve a trial. They still, if they plead guilty, you still have to ensure they know what their rights are, what they're giving up. Because there are safeguards in place. You don't want to live in a. You know, the worst case. I say this all the time, the Brian Coburger case. I think the evidence, as I mentioned, seems very strong that he committed this quadruple homicide. But the worst thing that would happen is if there is a mistake that's made where he is convicted, convicted, and that conviction is overturned and they have to retry him. Think about the pain that's gonna, how painful that's gonna be for the family. So I say in the cases of the most high profile defendants, where they look guilty as sin, you have to dot every I, cross every t, make sure nothing is wrong. Because the worst thing that would happen is, you know, for everybody is to have a conviction overturned and then a retrial. It's incredibly painful time. Consumer assuming it's a weakness, you have a trial 20, 20, 2025, have a retrial until 2028, 2029, something like that. Evidence gets stale, you might not get a conviction a second time around. So it becomes very, very important to make sure that everybody's rights are preserved in every single way. Even in the Mangioni case. I mean, again, you have to ensure. I talked about that whole idea about where is it was there, was his rights violated in Altoona, Pennsylvania, they have to make sure they weren't. Because that could really be a problem down the road.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, and that's the thing. It's the bigger picture. Like you, if someone is guilty as hell, but mint is still $15 a.

[Jesse Weber]

Month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two, seriously, it's $15 a month. Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses It. Are you, are you playing me me off? That's what's happening, right?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Okay, give it a try.

[Jesse Weber]

@Mintmobile.Com Switch upfront payment of 45 for 3 month plan. 15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first 3 months only. Then full price plan, options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Cmo.com the system was broken on the federal side for the evidence to be collected for them to be guilty, the people who are victims in that case. My heart goes out to him like crazy because I can't even imagine what that must be like.

[Jesse Weber]

Like.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But analytically, almost like you're being a computer looking at the system. The unfortunate reality is you got to let that person go.

[Jesse Weber]

So going back to Harvey Weinstein for a second, I think that, I think that they're. I was in that trial. I think there was strong evidence he committed those crimes. I, I don't disagree with the guilty verdict, but conviction was overturned in New York. You know why? Because evidence was let in that shouldn't have been allowed in. And so what was that evidence? It was called Molyneux witnesses. And basically he was charged with respect to certain women, but then the judge allowed other women to testify about uncharged conduct to show a pattern. That's quite prejudicial. Right? Okay. His conviction was overturned. For somebody who followed the evidence, followed that trial, said, I don't disagree with the verdict. It made sense based on the evidence presented. He deserved to have that conviction overturned. And if I believe that that is somebody who is a criminal. Right. Who, who. I still believe that he is entitled to have his rights not violated. And, and that's important because now you have a retrial. What's going to happen now? Bill Cosby, again, you know, look, his conviction was overturned because of a, an agreement, a deal that, you know, was, shouldn't have been made. And it was like, yeah, it was a misrepresentation. He relied on it. He's entitled to, he's entitled to make sure his rights are invited, violated. Everybody has that right.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yes.

[Jesse Weber]

Even the worst of the worst. And it's not because I like them. It's not because I agree with them. It's because you have to make sure that the process is followed. Otherwise the consequences could be quite severe.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It's also, though, easier. This, this is what sucks. And it's just how it is. The two people you just mentioned, Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby, were famous people with ridiculous access to money.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And so they got the greatest lawyers, lawyers who can go not only dig up the evidence for these kinds of things, but then be able to get it through the court system at, you know, blank check type situation. Whereas the regular guy who has that happen and is sitting in his jail cell or whatever, you know, he may never get his day in court. About that.

[Jesse Weber]

It's. It's unfortunate. Right. You know, everybody's entitled to a lawyer. You're entitled to a public defender. But do they have the same kind of resources? And sometimes the government, if you can make a good argument, you know, to the court, you know, we need these certain experts to testify for the defense. Sometimes those will be paid, but, you know, it's limited circumstances. 100% agree. They say if you can afford the best, you'll get the best. But I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Now, Harvey Weinstein was. So you were in the trial, so.

[Jesse Weber]

Well, no, I wasn't a witness.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I was saying you were attending.

[Jesse Weber]

So I was attending. And I'll tell you this much. This is what's so interesting.

[Podcast Host Julian]

This episode is brought to you by.

[Jesse Weber]

Saying Saratoga as we talk about Harvey Weinsley. So I was in that courtroom for the trial. And I was out in the freezing cold in February to try to get a seat into that trial. It was. My hands froze over.

[Podcast Host Julian]

What was this, 2020?

[Jesse Weber]

This was 2020. It was right before the pandemic. This was like, right before the pandemic. It was, like, weeks away. And I sat right behind him. Like, right behind him.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I was sorry to hear that.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, I was literally right behind him. Behind him. And it was a fascinating case because Harvey Weinstein, there was nobody bigger in Hollywood than him. And to hear what these women testified to was really difficult. And you had a jury that had a split verdict. They didn't find him guilty across the board, which, again, I think emphasizes a jury that carefully considers the evidence and the facts. And it was the tension in that courtroom. There was a point, and I might be mispronouncing her name. You probably know it. Annabella Sioria.

[Podcast Host Julian]

She was in the Sopranos.

[Jesse Weber]

Yes. She was a witness who testified.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Gloria Trillo.

[Jesse Weber]

Yep. She had testified about being abused by Harvey Weinstein, I believe, back in the 90s. You know, when she's talking about what happened, you could hear a pin drop in that courtroom, and it was packed. And I remember at one point, she thought somebody was videotaping her in the courtroom. And she stopped and she was like, somebody. Is somebody videotaping me? And, like, we all look and it was. Nobody shows the M. But, like, that was the concern. That's the Concern that they have about having to wreak. I mean, think about what she's testifying to.

[Podcast Host Julian]

What did she say? Obviously he abused her. What, what, what was the nature?

[Jesse Weber]

I. I believe some. I. It was a long time ago, but I think it was like something about her come. Him coming to her apartment. I don't remember exactly, but like she would go. You have to go detail by detail about what you remember to understand the circumstances. Circumstances of it. It's not easy to go through. It's not easy to hear about. About this and you know, to have everybody listening in and taking notes. And it was. It was quite an experience. It was quite a trial to see because it was the first. It was me too. You know, somebody being held accountable. And he had great lawyers. I'm friends with his lawyers. Great lawyers.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Who were his lawyers?

[Jesse Weber]

He was. Arthur Idalla. Yes. Great, great lawyer. Love him. He's great. And Donna Rtullo, the great, great counsel. And you know, she talked about how she got a lot of hate for what she was doing. And I didn't think that was fair. She representing her client who is entitled to a defense. And she takes a lot of heat because she had to grill. She had to cross examine these, you know, victims or alleged victims. And she's just doing her job. So it was unfortunate, but it was a crazy experience. And I remember when the verdict came down, you know, there were deputies lining every aspect of that courtroom. They didn't know what was going to happen. Somebody jumps up, whatever. And when they said guilty, it was like, whoa, whoa.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Was there anyone in there supporting him?

[Jesse Weber]

No. Yeah, I didn't see. I never saw his wife, I think. I mean, he had PR people with him, he had his lawyers with him, but I didn't see any support for him as far as I remember. No.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah.

[Jesse Weber]

He was toxic. He was. He was toxic.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. I mean, he was awful. Also the ugliest person. Oh, my God.

[Jesse Weber]

The stuff that we heard in that trial. I mean, even atomy his anatomy, it was like. It was crazy.

[Podcast Host Julian]

They were like he had like an egg dick or some.

[Jesse Weber]

Well, he had to take like injections and things like that. It was. I. I couldn't believe what I was listening to, honestly.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Like, it sounds like what he did was usually just abuse people, but anyone who actually consented to it should be put in jail. I mean, Jesus Christ.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. And I, I think there was an argument there there, like you had to. The. It wasn't a trial about him as a human being or him. His personality. If he was yelling at people or tough on people, whatever it was or it was about did he commit these acts, these, these illegal sex acts. And that's what the jury had to consider. And again, they were very careful because they didn't convict him across the board.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. And the one thing about Weinstein was starting the whole me too thing is that I, I agree with you. I think think it, I think it, it's an important moment for people who, victims who had felt like they were not able to speak out in the past be especially because it's more powerful people than them who had taken advantage of them and stuff like that. I think that's such an important social moment. The sad part about the movement though, to me is that unfortunately you also had people infected who just. I don't know what the it was, what's wrong with them, but they want to take attention. And what that does to me is you suddenly get all these claims, not necessarily against a guy like Weinstein, but against some of the other people who were. Who had claims against them. And once some of them are then proven to very clearly have never happened, it creates a boy who cried wolf scenario in society, which I have seen. I think that has happened to where people are like, yeah, everyone claims this, this or that. And now we're back at that point. Sometimes times where people are like, you know, a victim comes forward and they go, all right, hon, what do you really. You know what I mean? And that's a tough spot to be because I, I can't imagine being in that position. Especially like, think about a guy like Weinstein and, and how powerful he was to hold people's careers in the palm of their hand and to have, to maybe still exist in that ecosystem, like out there in Hollywood, you know, making a living or whatever, and this guy's always around and you know, what he did to you, but you can't do anything about it. That's like the worst. Like, that sends a shiver up my spine thinking about it.

[Jesse Weber]

It's the same thing with the Combs case, right? If you, you know, these cases against high profile people, the number one question is, why did you wait years to come forward with a lawsuit? Why did you come. Wait years before you go to authorities and you say, I was in fear. I didn't think I had the power that anyone would listen to me, that my career would be tarnished, my jeopardy, you know, my life would be tarnished. Now I agree with you. There are those who also come out of the woodwork as well. And that takes away from the legitimate stories or the allegedly legitimate stories. And that's a, that's a big battle. And again, I think you're going to see it amplified during the Sean Combs case as well. But yeah, I mean, for, it's unfortunate because with any good thing that happens, people will take advantage of it and you know, they feel that. Look, do you see the other thing that happened with the Jay Z where.

[Podcast Host Julian]

The law, the 13 year old came out and claimed that that case is done.

[Jesse Weber]

The case is done. Yeah. Now why was that case dismissed? I think there's a fair argument that the story didn't add up. His lawyers were picking apart this woman's story that, you know, she claims this happened. We have documentary evidence to prove it didn't.

[Podcast Host Julian]

He wasn't even in the same place.

[Jesse Weber]

Like, and, and that case was ultimately dropped. And it becomes a question, why was it brought? How was it brought brought? Why did she come forward? I mean, does she really believe these claims happened but her recollections different? I mean we don't have a clear answer. But at a worst case assumption, imagine the story wasn't real and Jay Z now was, you know, falsely accused of abusing a 13 year old girl back in 2000. So you know, look, it doesn't mean, excuse me, doesn't mean it didn't necessarily happen. I, we don't know. But the fact that you go forward with that case knowing that you, you don't necessarily have the evidence to back it up is a problem.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. And I've talked about this before, but with, with, with the Jay Z thing. First of all, anyone who would be convicted righteously so in a court of law of abusing a kid thrown in prison and lock away the key, I don't care what they've done or whatever, like that shouldn't have to be said, but let's preface it with that, that said, there has been like a weird, weird obsession I think and this has been a few years now with people wanting a guy like Jay Z to be that guy. Like I don't know what it is. Again, if for some reason there were facts that came out and he actually was great, we're terrible, but throw him in prison. But like people are obsessed with, oh, wait till the Jay Z stuff comes out. Now I will say this and this, this is anecdotal and counts for very little. I had heard whispers and I know a lot of people who had heard whispers about Diddy for years, been hearing whispers about him since 2016 or 2017. And I'm a regular schmo.

[Jesse Weber]

I've never heard that about Jay Z. Yeah, it's as much as we love to see the success, the su. The success story, people rising, they love the fall. And I think it's also this idea of. We talked about it before. There's got to be more to the story. What's Hollywood really up to? What's the political scheme? What are the rich and powerful really up to? And it amplified with the Diddy case. Right. You know, this idea. Oh, oh, you know, everybody was attending his parties. If he's accused of this, who else was a part of it? The Epstein situation. Right. The Epstein files. Everybody wants to know who was involved, who was. It's that idea of justice. It's idea of how do we see. How do we take down the most powerful level of. We immediately assume there's corruption at the highest levels, there's bad actors at the highest levels. I'm sure. But it's not always the case. And it's unfortunate. Unfortunate because the people get that sense of excitement. Right. At seeing, at seeing a story like this break.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. But that's. There's something wrong with us about that.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Because you should never again where the people are doing these things. They should be caught and rooted out, the whole bit. But you should never be rooting and hoping for someone without having any evidence that like they actually are this monster. And that's.

[Jesse Weber]

And by the way, a conviction, a case that's dropped, stopped, a not guilty verdict, that won't change people's perspective.

[Podcast Host Julian]

That's right. Yeah.

[Jesse Weber]

At all.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It to be true.

[Jesse Weber]

At all. Okay. Even if whatever happens in any of these cases, people will believe whatever it is they want to believe, that's not going to change. It has obviously legal consequences. But I go back to idea of there's the court of law and there's a court of public opinion and sometimes one battle success in one area is not going to translate into a success in the. To the other.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And again, it goes back to. Also we want. We have this whole elite versus Main street kind of thing going on in society right now. And people, it's. It's just, it's like a blood war in that way online. And everyone, you know, behind a Twitter account can say whatever they want, regardless of who they are. I was actually, I was talking with a few guys who work out in Hollywood recently and it was like a really refreshing perspective to hear from them and like how they were going through how people see this stuff. And they're like, yeah, there's Up. People like Diddy. Like, there's some up. Some of the business is up. And, and the people suck. And like, where that is, like, put it in court 100%. But they're like, we don't all live under. We don't like, operate under the same roof and have a group chain every day. Like, whose place are we going to the today? It doesn't work like that.

[Jesse Weber]

It doesn't. That's how it work. No, it was. There's aspect that Hollywood's bizarre, right? Like, what they're up to is bizarre. I'll give you a funny story. I'm not going to name the name, but I'll tell you a funny story. So I'm with my dad and we're going in this elevator at this hotel. He was staying in the city. So we're going up and in the elevator was a very, very high profile, a list movie star. Okay. I can't tell you who it was. I can't. But it was very funny. We walk in and my dad and I look, look very similar. We have a radio show together, always in fashion. Encourage everybody to check it out. We look, we look very similar. We walk in and the guy goes, without breaking me, he goes, whoa, what are you two boys up to tonight? Being like. He thought I was like a. Like we were together. Like, he thought that we were like some sort of couple or like, I was a.

[Podcast Host Julian]

He looks like you.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. And I was like, what? And he goes, yeah. What do you guys. I'm like, no. And I said his name. I was like, no, no, no. I was like, I was like, you've been in. I, I promise you. I said, I was like, you were not. You've been in Hollywood too long. I was like, you've been in Hollywood. This is my father. It was, it was crazy. It was crazy. And he was like, he, he was super embarrassed. Like that's what he immediately thought. But like, you know, I don't know why that's why his mind went there immediately, but that's why people think like, oh, man, Hollywood's messed up.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It's a little. Yeah, it's a little weird.

[Jesse Weber]

It was weird. It was weird. Nice guy. Afterwards, we, you know, But I love.

[Podcast Host Julian]

That you hit him with like the first name. No. Jim or.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I said his name. I said his name. I was like, you've been in Hollywood way too long. He got it, he got it, he got it. I can't tell you who it is. I'll tell you off air, but I can't tell you that.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, people are going to be upset that they're blue balls on that. But yeah, it's, it's not, it's not one roof and it's not, you know, one set way of doing things. But also, like people, the allure of like, they're different than you, they're above you, they're in this separate universe. People want to tear that shut down. And I, and I get that. Where it's taken advantage of for sure. You know, and obviously you've seen these cases, but you might. You mentioned the Epstein case. You know, did you cover a lot of that in law and crime?

[Jesse Weber]

I did. It was complicated. Right? It was complicated because obviously you had her case, Ghislaine Maxwell's case. He died. And then it was civil litigation. It was like, what do we find out from the lawsuits that were filed against Ghislaine Maxwell and in the estate? And I got to tell you, when the Epstein files were released, least none of it was a shocker. I mean, it wasn't bombshells. We knew a lot of this information from prior.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Already out.

[Jesse Weber]

It was already out. What was interesting was some of it put a little more context. I think the address book was interesting. But remember, you might be listed in his address book, a contact, but doesn't mean you were involved in alleged sex trafficking or anything like that. Okay. You just. He was a guy who knew everybody.

[Podcast Host Julian]

He did.

[Jesse Weber]

He was a guy who was connected to so many different people. People. Now these are people who are like, oh, shoot, I was. I wish I wasn't in his contact book. Having said that, you do wonder who else knew exactly what was a part of it and who else to partook in it. I mean, look, Galaine Maxwell was convicted of this, you know, crimes related to the sex trafficking to nobody. To nobody. Now, it doesn't mean that she should be found not guilty. She should. But who else was involved in it? It's a fair question. Question. It's a fair question. And, and I don't know if we'll ever see any kind of movement on that.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You know, we won't. It's. There's, there's too much. This one, 1,000 billion, trillion percent. You don't have to put it in a court of law. It is intelligence related. And so we will never, ever see. And he. This is what was so, like sinisterly brilliant about them from like an intelligence perspective. Perspective. All they had to do was take a picture with you. All they had to do, like. Can we pull up? I pulled this up on podcast before I know it's blank on me. We're talking about it, but can we pull up the picture of Elon Musk and Ghislaine Maxwell?

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Okay.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Now, Elon technically, like that point that people usually don't ever loop him in with this, but, like, there's.01% of him that will always technically have to answer for this stupid picture. If we pull up images right there, it's going to be the first one. Do the second one, actually, because that's better because it's the full body, and you can literally see the body language here. This is at some event. And he's walking, I don't know, maybe towards the bar. I don't know what's on the other side. And a photographer who's paid to be at the event says, oh, Mr. Musk. And quickly stops. And he doesn't even turn all the way the picture, but this little psycho bitch is right behind him and just leans in there like the creepy woman that she is, is. And now she's got him on picture.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, yeah, It's a good point. It's a good point. You re. It's. It's. By the way, if you go to that photo of Epstein with his hand over Ghislaine Maxwell, do you know they're selling the jacket?

[Podcast Host Julian]

They're auctioning Epstein jacket.

[Jesse Weber]

They're auctioning off.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And I have it.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, they have it. They're auctioning it off. Somebody's gonna buy that. Why? I have no idea. They're also auctioning off his address book, too. It's like, why would you want that piece of memorabilia? But, yeah, 100 sounded great. You. You create that photo. That's a contact. That's a contact. Look, when Harvey Weinstein was implicated, okay, even before the charges, like, we had the New York Times piece, how many videos did you see of compilations where people are thanking Harvey, Right?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, yeah.

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, thank you so much. You know, this is my brother, you know, thank you so much. It's like. Doesn't mean they didn't know what was going on. I mean, they did either, right? You don't know. You don't know what they knew, what they didn't know. But it showed his power, his influence, how much he helped people's careers. And obviously, the last thing they wanted from a PR point of view is to have to explain themselves. What did you know about Harvey Weinstein? Did you hear anything? I mean, that's not what they wanted. And that's what creates.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It doesn't and that's the thing. Like, are there people who definitely knew? Yeah, good luck figuring out which ones did and didn't, though. Like, how many of those people were in the casting rooms with him? How many of those people talked to someone who later whispered to. To them, a powerful person. Hey, you know what Harvey did to me? The whole thing was these victims were afraid to tell anyone about it.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You know, they're not running and telling Oprah about that. And it's like, we. We make these people guilty of things. And again, like, if they were and they did know something and fry them, I'm with you. But it just.

[Jesse Weber]

It.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It muddies the water. And. And to your point, like, when you go through the Epstein Black book, which I have a lot of times, you know, I always find something new in there and it doesn't. Like, for example, the guy had the contact of every preeminent contractor in the New York City area.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Because he liked real estate and had a lot of fucking houses and built shit and whatever the fuck it was. Does that mean that these contractors were building, like, dungeons for him now that any of them, more than three of them, actually worked for?

[Jesse Weber]

Right.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Doesn't.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But then when I look at page 30 and I see Robert F. Kennedy, and he's got fucking whatever it was. 11 to 13 contacts, ex in there, including his now ex deceased wife, her maid of honor, who also happens to be Carrie Cuomo, which is just like chef's kiss right there. But, like, when I see that, I'm like, I don't even have 11 contacts for my parents and grandparents put together. So, you know, when he. He can tell me, we were out there doing a fossil.

[Jesse Weber]

That's why I went on the plane. But I don't.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Like, am I really gonna believe that.

[Jesse Weber]

The fact that you're asking. Asking those questions and legitimately asking those questions is the problem. And I think that that was the headache that was Hollywood and politics for a while with everything that was going on with Epstein when he was arrested. It was like. I say the same thing with Combs. Like, when he was arrested, you. I did wonder people. There was a. So there's this lawyer that. Who filed a bunch of lawsuits on behalf of alleged victims of Sean Combs. And he said that people were already contacting him to settle lawsuits before. Before they were sued.

[Podcast Host Julian]

That's not Busby, is it?

[Jesse Weber]

It is.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It is.

[Jesse Weber]

So I was wondering. I was like, who are these high profile people that are reaching out to you to try to settle claims before you're named in a lawsuit. How many people when Sean Combs was arrested are like, oh, shoot, you know, like, by the way, we don't know. And we may never know who the government spoke to in preparation of this case. They might have had interviews with celebrities that will not be called as witnesses at this case.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Why?

[Jesse Weber]

Because they can. They have a fact finding machine. Right. So they might have had speak to people who will give them piece of information that leads them then to a witness they do want to call or that leads them to another piece of physical piece of physical or digital evidence that might help their case, but doesn't mean they're going to call them. And so we don't know the scope of what was happening in the last, you know, two years, year and a half of an investigation. We don't know. We might not. We might never know. But it does become a question. And when you see these high profile people, people who are. And by the way, it also is a point of do they mention anything? I. As far as I know, Ashton Kutcher, who used to be good friends with Sean Combs, didn't. Hasn't said anything about him since.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I don't think he has.

[Jesse Weber]

Okay, right. JLo hasn't said anything about him. You don't want to say anything about him.

[Podcast Host Julian]

So it becomes a Affleck that he left her.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, well, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what the circumstances were, but I will say it's basically like, you know, it's a nightmare for them. It's a headache for them. A. About how to respond to something like this.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, it's. I mean, if you're a publicist right now in Hollywood, you are. And I get a lot of money.

[Jesse Weber]

And I never believed the idea that, oh, Sean Combs is going to avoid criminal responsibility because he's going to name names. Oh, that was, that was the. I was like, wait a minute. No, no, no, no, no, no. First of all, what they charged him with, they. He would never work out a deal where it didn't include significant prison time. He does not want to spend one day more in jail behind boards. Okay, so he's never going to agree to that. Number two, you just said he's the head of a criminal enterprise, a sex trafficking operation. Who else are you going to name that's bigger than him? He's the head of. The alleged head of the operation. I mean, so I never believed. Everybody's like, oh, he's going to name names. He's. They were like, oh, his safety's in. In danger now. I was like, I don't. I don't believe it. I don't.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Here's why I think I might be with you on that. Yeah, because he's a fucking moron. I mean, there. If there are brain cells up there, there's like two On a last chance power drive on the boulevard of broke, there was not a lot happening. This is a guy who was placed on. Placed into his position when he was 23, with no chops, no understanding, and suddenly, immediately, when he's placed as the head of this thing called Bad Boy records, signs Notorious B.I.G. and is like the biggest, you know, record label executive in. In Hollywood. That's what made his career. If he was put there, he was a useful idiot. And this is one place, like Epstein, horrible guy.

[Jesse Weber]

But.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But like, if you really look at the case, you have to give him this as far as, like, what his abilities were outside the sick. He did.

[Jesse Weber]

He was a spy.

[Podcast Host Julian]

He knew what he was doing. This was. This was not an absolutely completely dumb guy or whatever. So Epstein kn. In my opinion, if you look at the case, it's pretty clear he knew where a lot of bodies were buried. Maybe not all of them like people say, but he knew where a lot of them were at up to the most powerful people. Diddy. I think he's probably used as more of a useful idiot on a not need to know basis. And so I don't think, you know, and maybe I'm wrong, and I kind of hope I'm wrong about this. If that is the case and he's a part of something bigger, like, I don't even know if he would be able to name people or who's actually using him, because I think he's just a sick fuck that they probably took advantage of being a sick fuck and said, all right, go be a sick fuck now on our dime.

[Jesse Weber]

Well, the allegations put forward or that he has the tapes, right? He's got tapes of people that were specifically used and kept for a reason to. To exert his influence, exert intimidation. And you wonder what those tapes will be. And, and by the way, I. I do wonder if they're presented in a trial, like, how much we'll know about them, right? There has to be. They're not just. I just don't imagine. I think there's going to be. Have to be a protocol put in place. There might have to be some sealed. Where they're just going to play it on a video screen for. No, that's not true. They'll have it for the. Here's what I think they're actually going to do. If I actually had to take a guess, this is what I think they're going to do. I think the jurors are going to have video screens in front of them with headphones and are going to watch it and nobody in the courtroom else is going to see it. And then afterwards a witness will be questioned about it in front of the jury. But I don't think any of us will ever know what that those videos are or the details of that videos are if you see those videos.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Well, that is the thing saying like when I'm, when I'm saying the people he would name, I'm going off what you're saying as far as like the actual operation trafficking. But to your point, the people who might have, like, I don't know, like enjoyed these sick activities. Yeah, absolutely. Will involve some extremely famous people. That could be, maybe that could be a bargaining.

[Jesse Weber]

No, I, I, again, I don't, I don't see it. I, I think because there would be no deal that he would have taken. And I don't think that like, I will tell you this much. I do find it very interesting that we are. What is it? May. Oh, it's April. April 5th. Okay, so we're a month away from the trial. Okay. He's charged with racketeering, conspiracy, which means you are in agreement with others to further a illegitimate criminal. Criminal enterprise and sex trafficking. And he's the only one charged in this case. Yeah, crazy, crazy. So it makes me wonder, are there going to be people who testify who will say will be questioned by his defense counsel. Did you work out a deal? Did you get immunity to testify? I mean, who are his coconspirators? Who are they? Who are they? The assistants, the, the managers. I don't know. I don't know who they are. Is it. And that's, that's the same concern that we have with the Glenn Maximo case.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yes. Sex trafficking and nobody.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

In that scenario, though, that's crazy. That scenario.

[Jesse Weber]

Who's he's agreement with? Who's he, who's the conspiracy with? Usually you have a conspiracy and they're all charged together. Right. You know what it is? There's a conspiracy. The brothers, I think the Alexander brothers are charged with conspiracy. Conspiracy together.

[Podcast Host Julian]

The real estate guys.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, the brothers. Makes sense. You have to have an agreement between one or one or more people and has to be overt steps taken in furtherance of that agreement. Okay, what would he just agree with himself. I mean, who are the people? Now the problem with this federal case, and I've been following almost every filing is we do not know what the evidence is. The defense does, but we don't because all of it's been sealed. And if any filings you see, half of it's redacted, it's all blacked out. I don't know what the evidence is. I don't know what the case is. We are going to see on May and then we'll have a much clearer picture of the angle of their case, who they plan to create call. I believe again, I've read the indictment. Oh, I've read all three and I've read all the filings. But I would say I'm fairly confident that victim one in the case is Cassandra Ventura. I think they just announced yesterday that victim one is going to identify herself. So Cassandra Ventura would identify. I don't know about the. The prosecutors are trying to have victims two through four not identify themselves. So they would testify as Jane Doe number one, Jane two number number two. We'll see if the court agrees, but at the very least we'll know who victim one is.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And you said there's three indictments. Are those in separate jurisdictions?

[Jesse Weber]

They're just they charges. It was interesting because you had the first indictment, then you had the second indictment which clarified some of the language and now this third one that is added to charges and they're all respect to victim two in this case. We don't know who victim two is, but it regards conduct from 2021 through 2024, which is interesting because if that timeline is accurate, then that is after Sean Combs was initially hit with that lawsuit from Cassandra ventura back in 2023. So he allegedly engaged in illegal behavior even through 2024 through his arrest. Now, we don't know who victim two is, but the new charges are sex trafficking of victim two and transportation to engage in prostitution with victim two. And it'll be interesting to see who this person is. Although again, we might not know.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You had talked about this earlier with like it could just be he's a part of these. Technically, if you're the defense, you could say, well, these are consensual legal freak offs or whatever.

[Jesse Weber]

That's the best defense.

[Podcast Host Julian]

What is that? Do we know any of the evidence yet of the transportation aspect of it? Because that would mean you are you. If I'm incorrect here, please correct me, but that would mean, I mean you are in this case, a Sean Diddy Combs planning to have other people picked up probably against their will and in some way via plane or bus or fucking car, whatever it is, transported to where you're going to be and use them in ways that are against their will.

[Jesse Weber]

Based on the filings that I've seen, it seems that it would be hotel receipts, like hotel invoices, probably travel records, either by private plane, maybe car, are. And that becomes important, particularly with, I believe, I think it's fair to say that commercial sex workers will testify about what they saw and what they heard and how they were transported from A to B. What was that kind of process? Who gave them the money, how did it work? So I think it's definitely going to be a case built on documentary evidence. It's going to be based on those receipts and what, to what extent they exist. But I think that those are things that prosecutors, even their initial filings had talked about. Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And this, this starts next month.

[Jesse Weber]

Starts next month. It's crazy. This case I didn't think was going to start this soon. Like, he got arrested in September of 2024. Now, trial in May doesn't usually happen that way, especially for a federal case. But he is of the opinion that he doesn't want to spend one more day in jail. There is an argument that he has been putting the feet, the fire to the feet of the prosecutors, basically saying, I want to go to trial as soon as possible. Okay. I don't want to spend one more day. He may think he really has a legitimate shot to be found not guilty and he can move forward because look from a state point of view, move forward. Look from us, if he's acquitted, right? If he's acquitted, he's not facing charges, criminal charges in another jurisdiction. There's statute of limitations issues. Those, if there were potential state charges in New York or other places, they, their, those claims might be too old. They might be time barred. For example, the Cassandra Ventura 2016 tape. They can't bring him up on. I don't know if it's assault or battery in California, but they can't bring him on those charges. The claims too long ago, it's too old. So his next battle will be all the civil cases and trying to fight that. If he, you know, but he wants to get out of there. He, by the way, I haven't mentioned this yet. I think that the reason he surrendered himself in New York before he was arrested, the reason he never skipped town, you know, surrendered his passport, he legit. I believe he legitimately believed, in my opinion, that he was going to make bail, that he was going to be let out. And if that was the case, he probably wouldn't want to go to trial right now. He probably. Let's push this trial out as long as possible. I'll be on house arrest, whatever. But because he was denied bail and I think was shocked that he was denied bail. He was like, I got to get out of here. Let's go to trial as soon as possible.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. He's a narcissistic. He thinks. Thinks that the whole world operates around them and. But like, that takes an extra level of complete lack of self awareness thinking that.

[Jesse Weber]

Well, well, no, from a legal point of view, he wouldn't be the only person accused of sex trafficking who could be let out on bail. There was the, you know, the guy who headed up Abercrombie and Fitch.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yes.

[Jesse Weber]

Mike Jeffries. He was let out. I mean, he was out on bail. And look, he's older. He's not accused of racketeering.

[Podcast Host Julian]

This is Diddy, though.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. He's facing serious, more serious charges and more extensive charges. So. But he, he thought that he could make an argument. I'm cooperative, I'll always show up. You don't have to worry. But there was an element of danger. There was an element that he was a flight risk. And there was evidence that he was intimidating witnesses and alleged victims in this case. Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

What's the evidence of that?

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, so there was evidence that this was coming out. He reached out to a potential witness, probably in this case, to kind of, you know, color her testimony. There was evidence that while he's been in the Metropolitan Detention center, the MDC out in Brooklyn, he has been reaching out to or using like third party channels to reach out to witnesses or have people reach out to these witnesses. And so when that evidence was presented, they're like, this guy. Imagine he's out. Even if you. And he actually did something interesting. He put forward a bail package where he was going to hire a private security firm.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah.

[Jesse Weber]

To watch his every movements. There was an argument. Can we trust them? You're hiring them, you're paying them. But it doesn't work. It didn't work. And the judge he kept, every court he went to denied him bell. And he gave up the fight.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Do you think that it is going to be more of an advantage to him or disadvantage to him that he's pushing for the trial to be so fast? Like, do you think it's harder for the prosecution to make this case or for him to defend it?

[Jesse Weber]

So the idea is you try to rush the prosecution because you feel like they're not ready. And. Okay, the other way of looking at is, no, the prosecutors are ready. Are you going to be ready? I mean, he was just hit with a superseding indictment yesterday. Is he going to be ready in a month?

[Podcast Host Julian]

What's the new one say?

[Jesse Weber]

It's just. It's the same stuff. But now he's hit with two more charges of. With regard to a victim, too. So trafficking a victim to. It's actually interesting. Sex traction. Excuse me. Sex trafficking victims who. And transportation to engage in prostitution. Victim 2. But there's also a change in the language a little bit. There was. I don't know why they did this. The prosecution computers made it clear that if he was brandishing a weapon, it was towards a female victim and that he held a female victim over a balcony. I believe they just added the word female. And I was like, you know, why they feel that need of specificity going into us? I mean, I guess, I don't know.

[Podcast Host Julian]

He had interesting taste.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they made a couple of changes. I don't think it's really going to change the case per se, so much for them. But in a normal case, case, if he was out on bail, if he was out right now, his. His lawyers would say, they just hit us with a new indictment. We need more time to work on this. But not here. They want to go to trial now.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You're also working at News Nation now, right?

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm their legal contributor. So I actually work with Chris Cuomo, so. Yeah, I heard you mentioned Cuomo. I'm a huge fan. Chris is a great guy, friend of mine. I love him.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Is he a good guy? Off camera?

[Jesse Weber]

Great guy. I didn't know too much about Chris Cuomo. Like, I, you know, followed him in the media, Media never met him. And then when I got a chance to meet him, he's super nice, humble guy and smart. I love the guy.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, it's interesting because, like, you know, he was in the middle of that whole, like, pandemic, CNN versus Fox News kind of thing, and now he's with News Nation, which is much more. I. I like News Nation. It's great down the middle. And I love that, you know, as close as it comes to that, I think.

[Jesse Weber]

So I'll give you Inside Baseball. Sometimes when you're a, you know, a media contributor, a legal contributor, distributor, they ask you to take a side. You know, can you argue this side? I remember once I was asked by a very big network, can I take this position, and it was, like, against everything I ever believe in. I was like, no, I won't. This one. What do you think? I'm never asked. I'm never asked, like, you know, take this side. You know, unless it's like a fun legal segment, like, you're going to play the part of the prosecution, you'll play the part of the defense. But no, it's. And then I anchor for them as well. So I filled in for Chris. I filled. Filled in for Dan Abrams. Yeah. I fell in for all their talent.

[Podcast Host Julian]

How long you been there now? Two, three months?

[Jesse Weber]

No, two. Am I my third year.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You're that far in?

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, yeah. I've joined in 2023.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, I didn't know that. I thought this was a newer thing.

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, no, I've been with them for, like, two years. Yeah, two years.

[Podcast Host Julian]

No.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

So you got serious. You got Long Crimes Nation. You fill in as an id.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. And then always in fashion with my dad, so I'm. I'm constantly busy. Wow. Yeah. Full, Full, full agenda.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, I know. My. My friend Nishan over there.

[Jesse Weber]

He's great. Love that guy.

[Podcast Host Julian]

He's. He's working with Chris.

[Jesse Weber]

He's great. He's a good guy. Yeah, yeah. He does all those shoots with him. Yeah. So my schedule is, like, insane. I, you know, I wake up every day at 5, and I'm working at 5:15, and I don't finish till like, 10, 11. It's. My wife is very understanding. That's good.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. You're a hard worker. We're doing this on a Saturday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But didn't. Didn't. Did he file a lawsuit against the whole network?

[Jesse Weber]

He did. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not at liberty to talk more about it, but he. He did. He did. He did file a lawsuit.

[Podcast Host Julian]

So you have like, not referring to this right now or discussing that, but when you're on News Nation.

[Jesse Weber]

Yep.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Does that affect your ability to even, like, cover it?

[Jesse Weber]

No, I'm. Again, just give my opinion about what's happening. Yeah, no, I. Yeah, I can't comment more on it, but yeah, he. He did that. It was interesting because he's, you know, he's trying to fight back. He's been very adamant that he believes he. All these allegations are false. I mean, the one thing that he did admit, which so interesting, he comes out two days after that video of him beating Cassandra Ventura was posted, and he comes out on Instagram and says, I'm messed up so bad, you know, he thought, I don't know, I don't know him, but I imagine he knew he couldn't be criminally charged with that in a, in California. But that is an admission that it was you and that can be used against you at the federal level, which I don't understand why he made that, why he said it. I don't quite understand it because it's not like he made that admission. Everybody's like, it's okay. Did he.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I think he actually thought he might get, that, he might get the sympathy. He's that psycho.

[Jesse Weber]

This isn't him yelling at a person in a restaurant because they didn't have his table. This was a savage beating. It was one of the most difficult things I've seen on tape. And again, I go back to the idea of. I don't know what else they have, I don't know what other videos they have, but that, that's one thing. And by the way, okay, I have to say it. Allegedly it's him. Okay, allegedly. But, but put it this way. If he did that in open, in an open hotel room, maybe he was on drugs, whatever, but in an open one time wearing, I mean, my gosh, wearing a towel and beating her up and dragging her. What else was behind closed doors. It's, it's crazy to think about.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I don't see how obviously that's going to get played in court for jurors and I don't see how that's not going to emotionally anchor people, even though they're not supposed to be. They're supposed to look at everything on an individual base basis. That's one of the nastiest videos you'll ever see.

[Jesse Weber]

But it does two things, right? So it does two things. If she, if Cassandra Ventura's victim, one, the number one, it would be used as evidence of sex trafficking she was trying to run. But number two, it makes her credible. Makes her credible. I said this happened and now I have the video proof. Okay, I said this happened. What are the text messages say now? Things that can get muddy the water. If there are messages where she's agreeing to be a part of the. These freak offs and she doesn't show any kind of resistance toward it or she's encouraging it, that becomes a problem. Right? It's all about raising any kind of reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors. Did he commit racketeering, conspiracy, sex trafficking, prostitution charges? Did he commit the. Beyond a reasonable doubt. If they can muddy the waters and make it. We talked about before black, white, gray, they can make it a great case. That's how he wins.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And we're also not going to see it because it's in close court, but.

[Jesse Weber]

It'Ll be as much reporting. There's going to be a transcript that's released at Long Crime. We're actually going to do live coverage as much as we can. We'll get live updates about what's happening in court. We have a reporter in the courtroom. It's not going to be, you know, we have a reporter that I'm going to be anchoring. So we'll have a reporter in the courtroom. She'll come out, do a lunchtime show with us. We're going to do live updates about what's happening. We are also going to get the transcript. So the transcript is going to come out the next day. We can probably do like sidebar episodes about that as well. And like, you know, what's, what happened in court?

[Podcast Host Julian]

What's your prediction there?

[Jesse Weber]

Again, I don't want to make a prediction yet until I know more about the evidence. It's not like the, it's not like I can look again the Coburger case when we know so much out there and I can make a good prediction there. This one, it's tough to say because I think it's a unique way. They're charging trafficking and racketeering and I want to see how they argue it. But, you know, there is a part of me that feels if there is, you have witnesses are talking about being abused and you have that video being played, he's looking potentially at a tough case.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah.

[Jesse Weber]

And potentially life in prison.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. And how, how long do you think a trial like this is going to take?

[Jesse Weber]

So I think jury selection is going to be a bit a minute. It's going to take a second to try to get a jury probably into early summer, probably like July, I would say.

[Podcast Host Julian]

So, like, not like six months, but.

[Jesse Weber]

No, maybe like six weeks, seven weeks, maybe eight weeks.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, it's going to be interesting.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, it's definitely going to be an interesting case. Case. A lot of eyeballs on it. And, you know, it's. It's an important one. It's an important one. He's a very, very high profile figure. You talked about how there's always been like rumors and stuff. I. It's going to be a difficult one to sit through and hear and trying to understand what happened. But it's just, it's so much in the secrets right now. It's so much in the shadows that it's hard to know what to make.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Of it if they, if they don't prove it, I will be. And again, we haven't seen, like, all the hardcore evidence they're going to bring. But I, I will be shocked because, I mean, I'm, I'm a regular dude. And I'm telling you, I, I will never forget I had a conversation with someone over two years ago where they described everything to a T. That is exactly what came out, really. And they are really not like a very famous person. And then I had another conversation with someone who would know about eight years ago that at the time went right over my head. And now when I look back on it and what he said, I was.

[Jesse Weber]

Like, oh, let me ask you a question. You don't. Did the person say that they were doing it against their will?

[Podcast Host Julian]

So the, the one two years ago, I was talking about some of it, yes. Some of it, no.

[Jesse Weber]

Okay. Okay. So that's, that's, that was the out allegation. That's an in. That's interesting. Right? And that becomes. That muddies the waters a little bit about it. Were they scared?

[Podcast Host Julian]

So the person talking about this was not someone who had. Had it happen to them.

[Jesse Weber]

Oh, somebody.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But they were around. They, they were around people I see who I believe had.

[Jesse Weber]

Okay. So it's, it's. Look, it's. And then it becomes a question of, you know, did. Again, I think it's like, was this a romantic interest he flew out about, gave gifts to promise career opportunities. Is that somebody who's morally despicable or is that, you know, sex trafficking? It's a weird definition of it. And look, this case is going to be a bit expansive too, because for the racketeering conspiracy case, you have to prove underlying crimes. Like, if you have a criminal enterprise, what are those crimes? Right, so that it's kidnapping, arson. You know, there's one of the allegations in Cassandra Ventura's law lawsuit that I think is going to make its way here, that he blew up Kid Cudi's car.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, yeah, I heard about that.

[Jesse Weber]

He blew up Kid Cudi's car allegedly because she. He was, you know, romantic interest of Cassandra Ventura. That's a underlying crime to show he was doing all this kind of. And what was the idea? It was all to benefit Diddy, benefit his businesses. So it's going to be a little bit of a confusing case. I'm sure there's going to be testimony. You're like, what is that? How does that relate to any of these, of this? But it's, they've charged him in a creative way and there's going to be, you know, arguments to support one way or another. I, you know, this talk. Would he take the stand in a case like this? He shouldn't. Let me be clear, he shouldn't take the stand. The only time I think a defendant really should take the stand and it's their choice is a self defense case. You have to explain to the jurors why you felt the need to use deadly force. But this is a guy who took the stand in his other trial back in 1999 or 2000. Remember that worked out well. He was acquitted. So I wonder he didn't have the.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Spotlight on him that he does and.

[Jesse Weber]

He doesn't have the same allegations.

[Podcast Host Julian]

He was a famous guy, but it was a totally different. Yeah, yeah. I mean if you want to play the game too though, with the, what they can prove is consensual is not though it gets dangerous. Because you can start to say the same things about Weinstein. Right? Because hypothetically, you know, obviously I think it's very clear what the guy did, but he could say they came over to his hotel room and he just insinuated like, hey, I have the power to put you in this movie. And they consensually said, well, let me put you over the top. Which is not how I believe it went down, but you see what I mean.

[Jesse Weber]

So the counterargument that is, yeah, I 100% agree. There could be, you know, I think from you speak to every five, 10 people on the street, they would say, yeah, they knew what they were doing. But our understanding of sexual assault and misconduct has changed, changed dramatically. There are people who are sexually assaulted and they stay in touch with the people who abuse them. They might say they love them. There are a lot of complicated psychological and emotional factors that go into this and it doesn't mean that they're not credible. It may complicate the story, but it, it's understandable. There's, there's a lot that goes into this and there might be people who feel, I would it look like everything was consensual. There are people who, who their girlfriends. There are people, you know, it happens. And you said it before, like one thing can be true and another one could be true at the same time. It's gonna be very fact specific. But I would say one of the reasons that I think Weinstein was convicted is because if that case happened 20 years before where someone's like, they, they knew what was going on, you Know, but our whole understanding of it, and particularly from the MeToo movement and hearing the testimony is, by the way, it's different from me explaining versus actually hearing the testimony from people. Yes, they're cross examined. They're cross examined. They should be, but it's different. And it'll be up to that jury trying to find a jury, though. It'll be tough. It'll be tough. I think. I think because this case is like.

[Podcast Host Julian]

It'S gonna be a show.

[Jesse Weber]

Who know. Everybody knows about this case.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, yeah.

[Jesse Weber]

But. But do they know the specifics of it? Do they know exactly what the charges are? We'll see.

[Podcast Host Julian]

We will. Now you, you've also been looking at this JFK stuff.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You were telling me before this is a throwback, but it's so much fun. I've done great podcasts in the past with guys who just know all about this. So our mutual friend, by the way, put this together. Joseph Scott Morgan, love him, came in here. I had done 146 with him, but then he came in for 170 and 171 and we did.

[Jesse Weber]

Which one's this one?

[Podcast Host Julian]

This is going to be 290something.

[Jesse Weber]

Okay.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But, you know, we did like the whole JFK case from, like, the how, how the evidence was taken, taken from the beginning to the end. It was really incredible stuff. But, like, you know, now these files come out and it still feels like.

[Jesse Weber]

There'S a lot we don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, you have to think about it like this. I didn't know too much about JFK before, and I've spoken to experts about it. What it, where does it come from? It comes from, like, the Warren Commission. It comes, it's. First of all, it's so not organized, right? It's so not organized. There was no, like, analog. There was no, like, you know, index. It was all over the place. Trying to understand what I think the conclusion is from the people I've spoken to, my is, is Oswald was the shooter. But it seems to me that the CIA at the very least failed to do what they needed to do to watch him and to properly. And it does become a question about why that happened. Happened. They were tracking him, they knew his movements. But I don't, I can't say from the documents that have been released and analyzed and from the people I've spoken to that say that the CIO was, you know, a part of the assassination or they were complicit in it, but there was a failure. And what I do think is interesting as well is there are nuggets in there, like, you know, the George Underhill one, right. The guy that said the CIA was behind and then he dies like what, six months later.

[Podcast Host Julian]

A lot of people like that.

[Jesse Weber]

And it's, it's only going to amplify the conversation. I know that there were people who testified, testified on Capitol Hill recently who say they want a further investigation into it. There's the truth. It's going to take years, years to properly understand everything. Because, by the way, it's not like we haven't seen these documents. The big thing is there was a lot of documents that are now unredacted that were previously released. So I think it's going to take years for people to understand and put into context a lot of what was released. And I'm not sure if anything else is going to be released in addition into that. But I got to give it to the Trump administration for doing this and for releasing it and providing transparency. But yeah, I, the conversation will continue. And like we said before, it doesn't matter what was released. People will still have their opinions one way or another. It doesn't matter what the verdict is. People still have their.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Well, we've got, I mean, when you look at the, at the ballistics and everything, one thing that's always been clear is that if Oswald was a shooter, and I actually think he probably did fire shots, he wasn't the only one. Only one. And we've now had Congress, when men and women come out and like say they've been told that as well, so there's at least something there. But you know, if you go through some of the guys who really had dug into this case in the past and, and did it from just a hard evidence perspective. Like, to me, one of the guys that puts together this whole picture the best was the dude, David Talbot. He wrote a book called Devil's Chessboard. You ever read that?

[Jesse Weber]

No, but I've heard of him.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh my God, man. It's insane because, you know, a lot of people wanted this guy dead.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And a lot of those people happen to be in our government and there were a lot of reasons for it. Like, if you talk to any of the Cuban related guys who were within our government and services from the time today who are still alive, they will tell you straight up, oh, he was a traitor. Like, they will use language like this, no questions asked. Not just. And it's not just because of like what they feel like the basic of pigs was and all that. And him pulling Back which I, I think there's a lot more that story just my opinion. But you know, it's also because allegedly he was talking with Khrushchev about denuclearizing and, and the two of them were having an open conversation about it. And that was the bridge too far. That's where intelligence said that we're not taking away any of our nukes or anything like that. We reserve the right to have to bomb the Soviets because at the time like this is just the. And you wonder how much of this still exists mentality wise within the government. But this is, this is a time where people within the government openly thought of things in the following way. Like they looked at it like, well, if the Soviets nuked us, we would lose 60 million, but when we nuke them back they would lose 240. So we win by 180.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Instead of the world lost 300 and we lost 60.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You know what I mean? Which then you think about it and you're like the people that think like that, it's then far fetched to say they would have taken out a president. Of course it's not.

[Jesse Weber]

And I think there was evidence in there that, you know, there was a conflict between jfk. There's some tension between JFK and the CIA. I thought it was interesting, you know, Fidel Castro was quite concerned after the death of jfk. Right. He was like now we're dealing with Johnson and I don't know what this is about. And there's an unpredictable nature about it because there's always, you know, was he some sort of. Sort of. Was part of it as well. I thought the most interesting thing was the CIA operations. Right. Just understanding these efforts to poison the sugar supply. Right. You know, of. I think it was of Cuba or. No, it was. Maybe it's the Dominican Republic now. I don't remember. But it was like these ideas, these covert actions in different countries and just I thought that commentary and those memos were the most fascinating part of it because you wonder, wow, this is what they were up to. But what are they up to now? It didn't stop. It didn't stop. It didn't stop in the 60s in my opinion. So I don't have proof of that. But that's my, that was my interpretation of it.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, I think about this a lot. That's why I like to put these guys on camera.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Testimony. Everyone out there, you wonder what they hold back. But I was telling you before, I had a guy, Matt Hedger hitting there. Who are Sitting there recently for a couple different podcasts. And, you know, he was a knock, and he's very forthcoming about what that entailed and what that was and what he thinks was good about that. But it's a moral quandary, because a week after I had him sitting there, the second time, I had Ed Calderone sitting in that chair, who's, you know, been battling the cartels for decades. And Ed Calderon brings up, we can talk about the CIA flipping major banks to get. To get them to fund the cartels. And I'm like, just had the guy sitting there who told the story about how he did that.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And it's like, all right, what's the bigger national security security implication that makes you do that? It better be good.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You know, but who also, who are you to decide that in a way? Like, you're talking about organizations that murder people like crazy and infect our streets with drugs, in this case. And when you look at some of the examples you're given, it's like, all right, you want to. The CIA wants to overturn this government. How many people are they going to kill to do that?

[Jesse Weber]

Don't you remember President Trump said, I think it was in his first term term was like, talking about, like, maybe it was about Russia. And he was like, you know, like, oh, he's a killer. He's like, we got killers here. Or like, you know, remember that we get killed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. But no, it's the truth. And I. And I, again, I don't think it was every administration that would release this information in this way. And yes, it was a haphazard release. There was things that were released quite quickly. And by the way, there's more Epstein files, I think, that they have to release as well.

[Podcast Host Julian]

They didn't really, to your point, they didn't release anything the first time around. Those binders, that was a photo op.

[Jesse Weber]

And the idea that the FBI withheld it from Pam Bondi, like, not that guy's call. Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Got fired. It's not his call.

[Jesse Weber]

I don't know if he got. I don't know if he stepped down, because out of principle. I don't remember he was. But I think he also had, like, another beef with the administration as well.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, he was. He was. He was told to resign, I believe.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. So it's like, you know, I give it credit, but it doesn't solve a lot of people's questions that they have about it. But it's fascinating. It's fascinating. It's one of those things that it's. So we put it, we did a sidebar episode on JFK was my idea was like, we don't usually do this. Let's do it. Maybe there's interest. Made like 2 million views in the first 24 hours. Like people were just eating it up. They still have. It's one of those cases, one of those situations. People still want to know what's going on.

[Podcast Host Julian]

He was a sitting US President. He has had blown off in public.

[Jesse Weber]

So, so what happened with the Trump assassination? We don't talk about that anymore. We don't talk about the attempted assassination. I mean, just where's the document release on that? I mean, isn't it amazing this news cycle? I mean, first it was. By the way, it's funny, the drones in New Jersey, was they here? Yeah, well, you saw him.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah, I saw a few.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah. Okay. Where's that story?

[Podcast Host Julian]

Gone.

[Jesse Weber]

Gone. Yeah, don't worry about it. What they say.

[Podcast Host Julian]

I know why that one's gone.

[Jesse Weber]

Well, well, well, you're not going to say. Okay, all right, well, it was funny. The Trump administration basically was like, you know, it was, I forgot what what they say was. Was it weather related? I don't remember.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But anyway, it's some.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, yeah, I have, I have my own theories too on that. But yeah, that story went away. Temp assassination goes away. It's. The news cycle changes every second. It changes every second. And that's why I think it's important, Important. You know, certain stories that they stay in the media and they stay in the public conscious. It's, you know, there's just too much to consume though, that it's hard to get people to focus.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. The tough one with jfk, and this is just a reality, is that you do have to live in a country where you have intelligence services. Right. And it has been proven that our intelligence services have done some awful things over the years. You wonder what the reasoning for some of that was. And then other ones, that's just like, that's just awful. There's no reason for that. But if, if it came out as I believe it was, that they were, they had just a few people involved in it, which is what it was like. This is an organization of whatever it's 30, 50,000 people. Most of the people had no idea the guy was going to get killed. Right. But the three, five people that did and then the three, five people at the Pentagon that did, they speak for the whole brand. And even though it's 60 some years ago ago, if that comes out definitively today. Like yes, Alan Dulles ordered it and Curtis LeMay signed off on it in the Pentagon. The, the anti establishment of the streets is going to say burn it all down.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, of course.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And overnight you got a problem.

[Jesse Weber]

Bad apples, right? Same thing. Bad apples. By the way, I don't know if I would even want to know everything the CIA or FBI are doing on a daily basis. I don't know. I don't think I would want to know. You really want that on your head? Think about what they have to deal with day in and day out. I know a lot of people of people and I. Tracy Walder, former FBI CI agent, News Nation contributor. She's fantastic. I always think about what she had to deal with on a day to day basis and what she knew. Bringing that home. Can't tell your family probably what's going on. I don't want to know. Just so part of me like yes, I love transparency. This part of me like just don't tell me what's going on. Just take care of the job.

[Podcast Host Julian]

You can't undownload that hard drive.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

And, and you know some guys have had it here who are from those worlds. That's one place where I have had a lot of empathy with them. Like the, like Matthew Hedger talked about it. He had to, he had to be taken into a warehouse with a bunch of senior level cartel people while a guy was tied up next to a table crying and screaming and on the table was his 10 year old son and they were all taking a carrot peeler to his face because the guy had stolen money and Matthew had to sit there and watch it. Oh and not do anything. And, and you can tell like that affects him a lot and, and who, who wouldn't? And I, I actually, I'm glad it affects him because it means he's a real human being. But like you know I, that's why I, I could, I could never do these jobs. It's, it's, it's a difficult, difficult thing.

[Jesse Weber]

It's, it's, you have to be a very specific personality. You have to have a certain skill set, a certain talent for it. But it is, is incredibly, incredibly. By the way, it's interesting. When I was practicing law, when I was in law school, I, I didn't know if I was going to practice what I was going to do but I was like do I want to be a criminal defense attorney? I was like I don't want to be around that content all the time.

[Podcast Host Julian]

That's what my dad said, yeah, I.

[Jesse Weber]

Don'T want to be around it. It's. It's. It's one thing to cover, but, you know, we. We have that show Prime Crime, and it's a documentary show, and we get all the raw footage, so the raw crime scene photos. To go through that, to blur it out, like, that would be your day in, day out as a criminal defense attorney. I was like, that's not the kind of life I wanted. Yeah, it's. It's tough subject matter to say the least.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Yeah. And like we were saying with Brian McMon, it's like, you are going to statistically have to represent people who are guilty of heinous things. And he even said. He's like, listen, if someone's a terrorist or something, find another lawyer. He's like, I know I'm not supposed to say that, but, like me, there's even some line there you had morally.

[Jesse Weber]

You have to do what you have to do. I mean, you have to. You can cross that line. And look, I give it credit to people who represent the worst of the worst. They don't want to do it, but they know that's their job, and they have to. They have to just look at the rights of the person. And it's, again, easier said than done, because I remember one of the craziest court moments I ever saw was when Larry Nash Nassar, who's the guy that.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Oh, yeah.

[Jesse Weber]

Abused all of those women and girls, you know, the father running and chasing him and almost trying to, you know, jumping over the table to grab him. His lawyers, like, became pariahs, and, like, they're just doing their job.

[Podcast Host Julian]

They're doing their job.

[Jesse Weber]

And it's, like, not easy when you're representing a guy like that. I mean, it was, like, multiple hundreds of people testifying about how he abused them. It's like, they got to represent this guy.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But again, they're. They're doing. Like you said, they're doing their job, and they're also upholding the Constitution.

[Jesse Weber]

Like, that's.

[Podcast Host Julian]

That is what it's about. And justice was done there. The guy was righteously.

[Jesse Weber]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Found guilty. And you hope that that's how it works out.

[Jesse Weber]

Absolutely, Absolutely. Yeah.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Couldn't be me, though.

[Jesse Weber]

No, not at all. Not at all. Not at all.

[Podcast Host Julian]

But listen, I told you I'd get you out of here.

[Jesse Weber]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Got a thing. We could keep going, but. Going to have to do this again at some point.

[Jesse Weber]

I would love to.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Your breakdown's amazing.

[Jesse Weber]

Thanks, man. I appreciate you having me. It was such a pleasure and congratulations on your success.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Thank you so much. But we will also be sticking your links down there so that people show your success as well.

[Jesse Weber]

Good. Love it. Thank you so much.

[Podcast Host Julian]

So you're on Law and Crime. You got just list off all your shows again.

[Jesse Weber]

So I got sidebar and Prime Crime. On Law and Crime, I have News Nation. I'm their legal contributor, always in fashion with my dad. And then I have a show called the Sports Spin Room that's on Mediaite, so hope everybody can check it out.

[Podcast Host Julian]

All right, check my links when we put this out, but we'll have all those in there. Everyone go check out the great Jesse's work. And thank you again.

[Jesse Weber]

You got it. Thank you.

[Podcast Host Julian]

All right, everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me.

[Jesse Weber]

Peace.

[Podcast Host Julian]

Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.