← Julian Dorey Podcast
Julian Dorey Podcast
#335 - The Blackstone Shooter, Cartel US Networks, Darkest Crime & Shawn Ryan | Dalton Fischer
03:12:22
Loading summary
Transcript588 lines
- [00:00]
A
These are incredible stories, man. They are the best of humanity, the worst of humanity. The last episode I did was with a guy named Clark Fredericks. He was abused by his close family friend before he was 10 years old. Became a addict, a gambling addict. Spiraled as you would. And one day he saw Dennis Pegg with another little boy. He drives to his house, kicks his front door open, and he's got a knife in his hand. Dennis turns to the door and stabbed him to death. He'd never told anyone prior to that night. And that's part of the reason that I had him on, because he talks about how to deal with this especially. I love hearing about terrorists getting smoked, obviously. So I had Brent Tucker on my show. He's a former Delta Force operator. He told the story about Chris Robinson. He picked up Chris's body, carried it to the helicopter. That's your best friend, man. Where the else are you gonna hear a story like that? I forget the actual circumstances of how he got killed, but those are the guys that are doing the bin Laden raid. So did you happen to see Sean on Tucker? He talked about the CIA infiltrating podcasts.
- [00:55]
B
And I know one of them I'm right about. Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. What were you doing out in Montana?
- [01:18]
A
Oh, yeah, dude, I was. Well, that's why this got delayed a couple days, I guess. But yeah, man, I, I've picked up hiking. Just getting out in the woods.
- [01:28]
B
Just picked up hiking.
- [01:30]
A
Yeah, I, Gosh, that's. That's been one of those things that's been on my list for a long time. And, and dude, the thing about it is you can't just go out into the wilderness willy nilly and around and you know, people get killed doing that sort of thing.
- [01:46]
B
100.
- [01:47]
A
So I was like, okay, I know that I want to do this, but I need to educate myself and be safe and not make sure and make sure that I don't get eaten by a bear in the woods and that sort of thing. So again, I just been putting it off and yeah, bro, also, like, I don't know if you can relate to this, but all my friends are domesticated and married and have children now and I'm the last remaining.
- [02:11]
B
It's like a half and half for me.
- [02:12]
A
Yeah. So you and I can. I mean, you know, Obviously we work 24 7, but we have the lifestyle that we can kind of just Pick up and do things and my friends don't. So I've been. I have all these trip ideas in my mind, even for, like, a short weekend thing. And, you know, nobody's ever down to just send it.
- [02:30]
B
So.
- [02:30]
A
Yeah. Anyway, long story short, I. I picked up hiking. One of my friends lives out in Colorado. She's super into it. I learned a bunch from her. And, yeah, man, I just been doing these little weekend trips and living in the city, dude, it's. It gets the. After a while and there's something, like, restorative about nature for me and just walking around and. And like, doing a little bit of suffering too, you know, do some hard hikes and just breathe some fresh air, and I come back feeling like, like a different man, you know?
- [02:57]
B
You know, I think there's a fine balance between it. Right. Like, I'm a huge city guy. I like being around a lot of people. But, like, you know, you're here every day for so long, we're naturally inclined to kind of be out there breathing the fresh air, smell nature, live among it a little bit. And I love that little getaway.
- [03:15]
A
Yeah.
- [03:15]
B
Once in a while. Which I didn't even do for, like, the first four and a half years of this podcast until I went to the Amazon. But, like, there's something very resetting about that.
- [03:23]
A
The Amazon's a little different than Colorado or Montana, I'd say.
- [03:26]
B
It's actually a lot safer than you think. Believe it or not.
- [03:30]
A
We should talk about that. But. But, yeah, dude, one thing, I don't know if you can relate to this too. Just like, everybody out west is just nicer than they are here.
- [03:37]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [03:37]
A
Like, when I'm walking, like when I would go by myself and go sit in a hotel bar and just start, like, striking up conversations with people. And, like, if you just. If you just did that here, for example, walking on the street in New York City, somebody would look at you.
- [03:49]
B
Like, what's wrong with you? Yeah.
- [03:50]
A
Like you got a dick on your forehead or something. And like, it just, you know, I'm out there and I just. I like the person that I am in that situation more. So I'm like, okay, you know, that I. To bring that back here and be that guy. Because you and I, like, we enjoy asking questions and getting to know people and, like, having conversations.
- [04:07]
B
Absolutely.
- [04:08]
A
Can't let these New Yorkers dissuade you from being yourself.
- [04:11]
B
I love it. And it depends where you go, too. Like, where you're talking about, like, out in God's country.
- [04:16]
A
Yeah.
- [04:16]
B
That's right. Yeah. There's. There's a lot of people who are like, well, how you doing, feller? And they're so nice and it's. And it's very cool. But if you juxtapose like New York with LA in New York, they'll be like, go yourself. But they tell you that to your face and it's a term of endearment in la. They say, hey, how you doing? And the minute you turn your back, they stab you like OJ or like oj. Did you get my point?
- [04:38]
A
That's a valid point.
- [04:38]
B
Like, it's the same kind of thing, but in a, in a. In a very ass backwards, passive way. So I'll take the east coast on that. And also, I love the rush of the action. I love, like, you know, you walk outside and there's a homeless person next to like a billionaire and it's like, what's going to happen at the bodega right there? I don't know, but I'm going to stand here and watch like there's something beautiful that is nature itself.
- [05:01]
A
I know that's a valid point. And it is nice being able to order food after like 9pm that's right.
- [05:06]
B
Yeah. How do you even do that out there? Like, do they have Ubereats? Is that a thing?
- [05:09]
A
Bro, I was just surviving on fucking uncrustables and RX bars. You know, you got to do what you got to do.
- [05:16]
B
Uncrustables?
- [05:17]
A
Yeah, you know, like uncrustables.
- [05:18]
B
No, I don't like uncrustables.
- [05:19]
A
That's. That's like the seed oils. You can't be having any. Yeah, you know, it's one of those things you got to just. You got to just let it rip sometimes, I guess.
- [05:29]
B
I guess so. I guess. You look like you work out. See? Beer, right?
- [05:32]
A
Yeah, well, that's. We were just talking about it off camera. I lose a couple pounds every time I go on a hiking trip. But, you know, I was like, if there's ever a podcast that I could rock a sleeveless.
- [05:41]
B
I know. You should have done it, in fact, before you said that, I was gonna go change my shirt. I know.
- [05:46]
A
Next time.
- [05:46]
B
When in Rome. Next time anyway. But, dude, listen, I. I really enjoy your podcast. It's nice to see you've been sticking with it and staying with it a while. I think I first met you when you were about maybe five, six months into it and a few episodes in. But the editing that you do. As someone who owes my entire career to Being able to like do some editing, like, I really appreciate it. It's the intricacy of the cuts, the way you use the music to get people hooked on it and then having, you know, three, four, five hour conversations on very dense subject matter as well with some really serious people, it is, it's, it's hard to do and you put it all together really, really well. So you've been at it a while and you know, I just want to show my respect to that and have, have you in here to it.
- [06:32]
A
Thank you, bro. I appreciate you saying that. I appreciate you having me. It's cool to be here because I watched you when you at your parents house before I started my show and that's part of the reason why when, when you sent that text and you know, to invite me on the show, I was like, that's not, not an invite that I turned down. And I have, I've turned a bunch down, just to be frank. Not that like I'm a hot commodity or something, but like I just, you know, man, like it's contrary to popular belief. Like people think like if you have a podcast, you enjoy being in the public eye. And for me, you know, if you look at the way my show's set up, it's, it's entirely about the guest. And that's for a number of reasons, but one of them is because I really don't like the attention. So again, you're, you're popping my cherry here, being that I'm on the other side of the camera. But again, I think that's also only fair that I do a podcast where I'm doing a lot of talking because it's, you know, I'm interviewing people, I'm keeping my mouth shut, they're doing a lot of talking and it's, it's, I think it's fair for me to be on, on the other side of the table, so to speak. But yeah, bro, thank, thank you for having me. It's, it's cool to see what you've done and you were part of the reason and we'll talk about this, but you know, you were one of the people that inspired me to start my own show and mainly because like, I, you know, I know your story. I, I know how you started and how you just quit your job and fucking sent it and bought a bunch of shit from B H and like started in your parents house and you were like subconscious proof to me that it was possible that you could just pull it out of thin air. You know what I Mean, and that. And dude, like, everything that I know about shorts, I, I picked up from you, so thanks for that.
- [08:12]
B
But anyway, that's awesome to hear. Hell yeah, man. I mean, look, it's hard, as you well know, but it's the kind of thing where if you're willing to burn the boats and you have some level of talent at it, it's not to say you're good on day one, but like, there's something you can work with there that you can improve upon. It's possible. It's just like you and I were talking before camera, you know, kind of shutting off your life to go do something, anything. It doesn't have to be a podcast. Could be starting a business. All my business owners out there know exactly what I'm talking about. That's kind of a daunting task because in some ways it's like the rest of the world will keep going and you have to press pause on yours, but time's still moving, you know, so kudos to you for, for actually doing that. But it like, was this something you, you wanted to do years ago and you were just waiting for the right moment to, to hit or, or why. Why did it start when it started in 2023?
- [09:09]
A
So, yeah, I think probably around it was like 2020, right after, right after Covid maybe. I started getting heavy into like a lot of self improvement stuff. Started reading a lot of the, I don't know, like, self help is kind of the shitty term to use, but you know, all those books and listening to podcasts and interviews and, and stuff like that. And so I started getting on that kick and just trying to, honestly, man, just, just start to understand myself and learn more about myself and that sort of thing. And just kind of by extension I started listening more to podcasts and getting on YouTube and listening to interviews and that sort of thing. And I got to a point where like, I don't know, maybe 2022 or something like that, it was pretty fast. I had just, I just started feeling like a pull to do it.
- [09:58]
B
What were you doing at the time?
- [10:00]
A
Work wise, selling software. So. And that was.
- [10:03]
B
That sounds wild.
- [10:04]
A
Well, it's, you know, it's, it's not going to light your soul on fire.
- [10:08]
B
I was going to say that wild was code word for boring.
- [10:11]
A
I mean, some people does. And hey, God bless, like, I'm happy for you. But, and, but again, bro, there's a lot of wonderful perks of that job number one is it's very autonomous. So, you know, I had actually, I Mean, your manager will make or break you and any role, I guess. But I had shout out to Eric. He was an epic manager. Super cool. Let me do my thing. And, you know, bro, I was working from my apartment in my underwear on my fucking laptop right over here. Yeah.
- [10:37]
B
Living in Jersey City.
- [10:39]
A
Yeah. So. So, yeah, I had a lot of time to listen to podcasts, and that's kind of how it started. But what was your original question?
- [10:47]
B
Well, I was saying, you know, like, what made you jump when you did, like, full force?
- [10:53]
A
So, dude, I. I don't know. I kind of felt that pull, and I was just telling default this tone defense a second ago off camera. Like, I think that people have a lot of ideas that bounce around in their head and they think about, like, you know, it's a stupid question, but, like, if money was no object or like, you know, ideas, even if it's, you know, starting a business or, you know, if you're into cooking, like, you want to start an Instagram where, you know, you, You. You cook or whatever. People have these ideas and they. There's a million reasons that they give themselves not to do it.
- [11:29]
B
Right.
- [11:30]
A
The problem with that is one day you wake up and you regret having not done it because you're. You're too old and now you're fucked. And, like, in my. In my life, man, like, my one, the thing that scares me the most is regrets. And so I think it's Bezos. This is a Bezos term, but, like this regret minimization framework.
- [11:50]
B
Regret minimization framework?
- [11:52]
A
Yeah, framework. I might have thrown framework in there, I don't know, but it's a Bezos thing. I don't know, Dr. Evil. But yeah, it's just basically, man, like, I. I just want to do things to not wake up one day with regrets. So, like, you know, you just pull the trigger on something and don't worry about, you know, all the potential consequences. So that was it for me, man. I just didn't want to wake up having not done it, just feeling that sort of slight pull towards it.
- [12:20]
B
You know what I think about sometimes with this? Because I understand exactly what you're saying. I had all the same thoughts, if you will, but if I had consciously taken the time to think about and, like, quantify in my head all of the things that would be required for me to even get this thing off the ground. And. And then let's even assume I had a magic superpower and I could know exactly what it looked like when I started to do that, like how this kind of edit would happen or what would need to be required of this, which I didn't know that if I thought about all those things, even the stuff I knew and then the stuff maybe I could have magically, I would have never began. And so there's something about just being like it, to use your term, send it and go where it's like, well, now I don't have a choice. And like today is in my control and I'm gonna make what I can of it and try to move this thing, you know, 0.01% forward from where it was yesterday. And you seem to get that because it's not. There's no way that you can properly fully plan for stuff. There's only ways, in my opinion, that you can outline a plan of like, all right, here's, here's the five things I need to accomplish, like in generalities. And then whatever the fucking 7,000 things that come out of that are, we'll figure that out as we go along. And just don't think about it. Just put your head down and go. This episode is brought to you by Prize Picks. You and I make decisions every day, but on prize picks, being right can get you paid. Don't miss any of the excitement this football season on Prize picks, where it's good to be right. Week one down already got my Eagles in a victory and we're looking for that two zero with a little rematch from the super bowl last year. And you know that I can play along on surprise picks by trying to guess what each of my favorite players are going to do in the game. Is Saquon Barkley, aka the best running back in the NFL and freshly minted number one out of the NFL top 100 players as voted on by his peers. Is Saquon Barkley going to have more than one touchdown or less? You know I'm going more. Will Jalen Hurts run for a touchdown and pass for more than a touchdown? You know I'm going more on that too. And over in the AFC, will the reigning MVP Josh Allen have more or less than 270? If you saw him last week, that dude looks like he's going for 300 every week. Prizepix is simple to play. You just have to pick more or less on 2 to 6 different player stat projections. And if you get your picks right, you could cash in. Prizepix puts their users first so all withdrawals are fast, safe and secure. Whether you're using venmo, Apple Pay, MasterCard and more, you're going to be able to get quick and easy deposits into your account. This football season, Prizepix is the best place to win cash while watching sports. So join millions of users and sign up today. You can download the app today by using the link in my description below and also using code Julian in the app to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup.
- [15:08]
A
Hi, I'm Kristen Bell, and if you.
- [15:09]
B
Know my husband Dax, then you also know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car, not so much.
- [15:14]
A
We're really doing this, huh?
- [15:16]
B
Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy.
- [15:18]
A
Answer a few questions, put in your.
- [15:19]
B
VIN or license, and done.
- [15:21]
A
We sold ours in minutes this morning.
- [15:23]
B
And they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.
- [15:27]
A
Bye bye, Truckee. Of course, we kept the favorite. Hello, other Truckee. Sell your car with Carvana today. Terms and conditions apply. Yeah, I would agree. And I think there's. There's. There's an element of. To me being strategic about it. So, like, you want to do planning on the front end, but there's also such a thing as analysis paralysis, right? So, like, you can dig yourself into a hole where you want it to be perfect, and then you never end up putting something out, but you got to pull the trigger eventually. And that's. Dude, that's something, you know, Mr. B says, right? He's like, you can, you know, you want to. Obviously, it's. When you put something out like that, something that we do, it's a reflection of you and it's a reflection of me. And, like, especially if, you know, you just come out with it kind of out of nowhere and you're like, this is me. This is my work. This is what I'm doing. It's. It's a reflection of you. So obviously you want it if you. If you care about it and I care deeply about this, you want it to be. You want it to be great. And so, like, you know, it's easy to sit there and think about, like, okay, I want this to be perfect and this to be perfect, but eventually, like, again, by all conventional Mr. Beast YouTube logic, nobody's going to see your shit for a really long time. Which is. We can talk about that. That didn't end up being the case for me because I got really lucky, dude. I got, you know, I got lucky with, With. With John. And we can. I'll tell you that story about how we got there. But question. Yeah.
- [16:51]
B
When you went down with John to. When he was recording with Danny Jones, one of the many times, like a few Years ago, before you launch your podcast. You know, like, Danny's one of my best friends. I've been down there a bunch. I know how amazing his operation is and how long it took to build it and all the work that he puts into it. When you were sitting in there, you know, I think this is relevant for people out there thinking about doing something and being overwhelmed by what they already see. If people have done it before them, was there a party that's like, holy.
- [17:18]
A
Like, yeah.
- [17:18]
B
How the Could I ever get it to this level?
- [17:21]
A
Yeah, that's a good question. And I'm glad you asked it, because, like, I'll tell people the story because I don't want to make it seem like I just. I have. I had the balls to just pull the trigger. And, like, I just knew because, no, it is exceptionally daunting in the beginning. There's a million things that you have to learn. And like you said, if you think about it that way, if you think about, oh, my God, this is this sea of stuff that I have to wrap my head around, then, you know, you're never going to figure it out.
- [17:45]
B
That's right.
- [17:46]
A
So that's what happened in the beginning, actually, is so. Dude. To be. What's funny is when I had this original idea, I was just gonna do, like, a remote podcast. I was gonna do zooms. I was just gonna be like. Cause it was one of those things where I was like, yeah, I'll just try it. Just to tell myself that I did it. I don't remember when it changed to in person. Anyway, long story short, I had, like, a period where I was starting to kick the idea around and hadn't bought any equipment, hadn't committed to anything. And one of the first things I did was I reached out to podcasts that I watched. So you were one of them. I called you. You didn't answer.
- [18:24]
B
You called me?
- [18:25]
A
I called you. Yeah, Yeah. I think I was caller ID. Yeah.
- [18:30]
B
I don't know. Apparently not. I get, like, 40 spam calls a day.
- [18:34]
A
I know. That's the thing, dude. Somebody calls me now, and I'm like, who the is this? And they're like, oh, it's so and so.
- [18:39]
B
Make sure I don't have your number blocked.
- [18:41]
A
Yeah, yeah, no, you're good, But. But, yeah, no, you're good. So I. I called you. I called Danny and Sean Ryan, and.
- [18:50]
B
You called Sean Ryan?
- [18:52]
A
Yeah, he didn't answer.
- [18:52]
B
I was gonna say he probably.
- [18:55]
A
I don't know.
- [18:56]
B
Yeah, like, block this guy.
- [18:57]
A
Oh, yeah, we'll talk About Sean, I. Because I think, you know, obviously, I fucking modeled my whole. Whole show off his. I think he's the goat we talk about.
- [19:06]
B
Incredible, bro.
- [19:07]
A
Unreal, dude. Unreal. So I think it was just the three of you guys and then one more guy. I forget his name. He doesn't even have. He doesn't even do a podcast anymore. Which is the funny part, going back to your original point, like, longevity is. Is tough in this game. Yeah, it is. So I reached out to people, and Danny was the one person that answered, and I called him when he was at the gym. And, dude, in retrospect, like, this is. It's kind of stupid. Like, when people reach out to me now and they're like, hey, like, how do. How do I. How do I start something? Like, what do you recommend me doing? Like, I wouldn't recommend doing what I did what I'm about to tell you because, like, it just doesn't make a ton of sense. But I called Danny and I was like, hey, man. Like, this is. This is who I am. Like, I'm thinking about starting a podcast. Like, I respect what you've done. You've built a cool brand, and, like, you know, one that I'd like to emulate. Would you be open to just, like, discussing kind of lessons learned, things that you wish you would have known before you started? And the reason that I say that I wouldn't recommend doing that is because, like, I basically just fucking called this guy out of nowhere, like, and asked him first time, and he doesn't know me, and I'm not providing any value to him in return. And, like, again, I caveat that by saying, like, people want to help people. And, like, I'd love to help people if, again, if you reach out to me, like, willy nilly, like, oh, like, with some stupid shit. But, like, that. That's one thing. But if you. If you call, if you reached out to me and you were like, I'm super passionate about this. I've done my research on the front end. Like, that's a whole other thing. Anyway, so I. I hit Danny up and he's. He was like. He was just kind of caught off guard. He's like, dude, I'm like, I'm at the gym. This is kind of weird. Like, so funny. That's totally fair. He's like, let me think about it. I was like, dude, I appreciate it. Thank you for your time.
- [20:52]
B
So it's the phone, you know what? And I. I admire the balls. It's the phone call thing. That's like, what the. Because first of all, I don't even check those because they're all spam. But secondly, like. And that's what kind of guy Danny is, though, too. Like, he thinks a lot. Like, I do if someone reaches out on email. Now, I do have 93,000 unread emails, but the ones that I see, like, I take to this day, like, I do the calls, I'll do calls with someone, and they never have anything to offer. I don't expect that. It's just, like, I never really did that on my way up, but I recognize so many people. As the years go on, it gets more and more daunting to try to do this. So I'm like, I really wish, like, if I had had, like. Like, a buddy that, you know, could kind of tell me, like, a mentor to kind of tell me some things to do, that would have been awesome for me. So I like to be that for other people. And obviously, like, Danny does, too. And that's. That's cool. He took the call.
- [21:43]
A
Yeah, so. So, yeah, we didn't really, like, get into it at all. And what happened was, like, I was like, dude, thanks for your time. And then, like, probably, I think a month went by, two months went by, and I just get, like, an email randomly from him, and he's like, I forget what it said. Like, I probably have it somewhere. But he was like, hey, man, like, who are you? Like, what's your story again? And so we start going back and forth on email. And long story short, like, I ended up helping him with some. Some guest outreach because I did sales. And so basically, like, I would hit people up for him and be like, hey, like, this is the Danny Jones podcast. Like, I'd like to essentially sell you on coming on the show and looping back to my original point. Like, not everything has to be a value exchange, but I just. The principle that I'd recommend to people is that if you just provide value to people for long enough and don't ask for anything in return, most people are good people, and eventually they're going to be like, hey, what can I do for you? You know what I mean? So, like, if you're. If you're doing something for somebody like Danny, to his credit, he offered to pay me, and, you know, I declined. I was like, dude, I don't want your money. Like, I just, like, I honestly, I just. I wanted to help him out because at the time, like, I just, you know, I felt that that was. That was worth it. And. And, yeah, so I started helping him out with that. And again to same point, eventually Danny was like, hey, man, like, what. What can I do for you? And I was like, well, funny you ask. Like this. All this stuff that we can see on this table right now is exceptionally daunting to me. Like, I don't know how. I have no media experience. I don't know how cameras work. I don't know how sound works. So I was like, I forget what I asked him. I was like, would it be okay if I, like, came out to Tampa and checked out your studio and just like, if you have a podcast coming up, I could see how the cameras are fed into your computer and, you know, the mics are wired into the recorder and, like, get an actual visual concept of how this shit works, right? And he's like, yeah, I have a. I have a podcast coming up. Whenever it was May something, he's a come out for that. And it was John. So, yeah, got there, watched him do his thing. It was super cool to be a.
- [23:49]
B
Good one to watch, too.
- [23:50]
A
Oh, my gosh, man. Yeah, John is. You know, you've had him on a couple of times. He's. He's a pro, dude. He's a pro. But, yeah, long story short, they did the podcast. Three of us went to lunch afterwards, and then John and my flight. John's and my flight were like an hour apart. So we took an Uber to the airport and then waited for our flights together, had coffee, shot the. And I. I just told him. I was like. Because he's like, why are you out here? And I was like, I'm Danny's make a wish kid, but. And I told him I was a guy.
- [24:22]
B
Sounds great.
- [24:23]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, oh, really?
- [24:24]
B
Really?
- [24:26]
A
But I was like, yeah, dude, I'm. I'm starting one of these things up. And, you know, once. Once I get it up and running, I'd love to have you. And he's like, cool, let's do it. And I was like, okay, this is. That's another thing, man. Dude, but this is, like, this was my, like, send it moment. It wasn't as cool as yours when you just said it and bought the equipment, but I don't know.
- [24:45]
B
That's pretty cool, sitting in an airport with John Kiriaka and being like, will you be my first guest? Like, dude, it was so cool.
- [24:50]
A
But I also thought. I was like, what if he's just being polite? And like, what if I now go home and buy 10 grand worth of equipment and then I call John Kiriakou and you. Exactly. He's like, who are you? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so. And he didn't owe me anything, man. I didn't even have a platform. But. But yeah, so that was. That was the moment that I. That I sent it and bought everything and started doing test runs with and committed to it. And then I texted him and whatever it was in July or something, and he said yes, and he came out in September, and that was it.
- [25:26]
B
Well, I mean, it's. It's awesome, bro. But jokes aside, like, having John is the first guy to sit down with. Like, you said you were. You've been thinking about doing the zooms or whatever, but you hadn't done that. You hadn't sat down with anyone and anything previously before, right? Before doing that.
- [25:40]
A
Correct.
- [25:40]
B
So the. Like, the first time I sat down to do it, it was me talking to a camera. My fucking cousin was sitting there going like this. He's thrown away his whole life, you know, so, like, low bar, right? And then, you know, for the first 86 episodes, the requirement was, can you breathe? And, you know, can you occasionally talk? And you can come over and do it. So I. I got to ease my way into it. But you start off out of the gate with, you know, a guy who was top 25, probably at CIA, the most prolific whistleblower at CIA in modern history, a geopolitical genius, a personality that is rarefied air, to say the least. Someone who has been in the most dangerous situations and arrested some of the most dangerous people. Someone who's had assassination, like, all this shit. And this is the first guy that you sit down with at your undisclosed studio location, you know, wink, wink. But, you know, like, were you nervous.
- [26:38]
A
About that at all? Oh, yeah. Oh, fuck, yeah, dude. I'm. I'm nervous now, bro. I still get nervous.
- [26:44]
B
Nerves, yeah.
- [26:45]
A
Less so. I mean, this is also different. This is the first time that I'm, like, talking a lot and on someone else's podcast, so it's different. Sort of.
- [26:52]
B
You're good at it. You should do it more.
- [26:54]
A
We'll see. We'll see. I honestly mean, I doubt it. I doubt it. I don't. Like I said this was a different circumstance because it's you, but thanks. Yeah.
- [27:03]
B
And I'll make a wish, kid. Now.
- [27:05]
A
And I'll do. Dude, I feel bad. Rondy has been. Rondy's been. I was in a different state of mind, to be fair. I was going through some shit earlier in the year, and I just. It wasn't the. The right time for me. To talk Johnny Rondi. Yeah, he's the man. He's been super supportive of me. He's. He's such a great dude. So, like, I'll have to do his.
- [27:21]
B
John's the reason Deep sitting here. He introduced me and deep years ago.
- [27:24]
A
Really?
- [27:25]
B
Yeah, yeah, John. John Rondy. We're talking about Johnny Drinks. Also the host of John Ronnie podcast. But you know, he's. Over the years, I have so many great friendships that started with him. In addition to like being great at what he does and being a really great guy, like, like, he's also this super connector and knows how to match people well and who's going to get along with who. And you need people like that in your life and you're lucky to have them when you do.
- [27:50]
A
Yeah, for sure. No, I love that. But yeah, what was the original question?
- [27:55]
B
Sorry, yeah, we were saying, we were talking about how you don't really go on the mic that much, but we're talking about more importantly the fact that your very first one is with John K. Yeah.
- [28:05]
A
I have an interesting short term memory, if you haven't noticed.
- [28:07]
B
But yeah, it's all right. I'll keep the weave going.
- [28:09]
A
Yeah, dude, there's just, there's so many things floating around in this head. A lot of stuff, but I don't want to be. And you know how it is.
- [28:14]
B
You know, I, I understand that completely.
- [28:17]
A
That's why I'm here. Yeah, fair enough. But yeah, dude, it was, I do. I was super nervous, man, that like you said, he's been on, you know, he's been on Fox News, he's on your television. Like Tucker Carlson, like super reputable guy. But at the same time, like, in retrospect, he was the perfect first guest for me to have because for him, like, you just keep your mouth shut and let him roll and that's all you got to do and like do your research on the front end to have good questions to ask him. And for me, man, like, I, you know, I over prepared and probably could have. So I actually watched that interview back because I just had him on again and I'll be putting that out this, this Sunday. But so I watched that interview back and there was a lot of threads that I would have pulled on if I was more comfortable as an interviewer being in the moment. And like, because you have to practice active listening, like you can, I think that like, if you're. Again, if you're starting a podcast, you can, you can solve a lot of problems by preparation. Meaning, like if you're not an established interviewer and you don't have that skill. The more you prepare, the more questions you'll have in the moment. So, like, again, long winded way of saying, yeah, I just. I would have. I would have. I would have done it a little differently. And I did. We had a great podcast this time around, but John is like, you, dude. You ask him a question and he just lets it rip. And that's the thing about these intelligence guys and special operations guys. If you go through there. And again, this is something I got from Sean Ryan. If you just go through their career chronologically, like you can do a fucking six hour podcast and. Exactly. And it just goes by before you know it. So, yeah, man, there's a lot of estuaries with them.
- [29:58]
B
A lot of off ramps too. So you could be looking at someone's career from 1997 to 2019. Right. And as you're kind of chronologically going through that story over whatever it is, three, four, five, six hours, there's all these offshoots that happen of, like, breakdowns and them getting to take the experiences they had to put that perspective into the world views they have, which you do a great job of. But to your point, it's like with John, he's one of those guys that I'm out of respect, like, borderline poking fun at the whole time, because I know how he's gonna do it because it's just like exciting to watch. But he'll just, he'll be getting on this little rant or whatever and he'll be like, you know, so that's the. That's the problem with things like this.
- [30:44]
A
You know what?
- [30:45]
B
I'll give you an example. I know. And I'm like, yeah, all right, here it comes.
- [30:49]
A
Oh, my God.
- [30:50]
B
Ten minutes later, it's like, yeah, you know, you're just mesmerized. He's Paul. Rosalie's the best 30 to 60 second storyteller I've ever seen. John. John Kiriaku is the best long form storyteller I've ever personally seen in here.
- [31:02]
A
I would agree. I don't. And that's. That's funny. That's something I asked him. You'll get a kick out of this. On this, on this last podcast, I. I asked him, I was like, so. So basically in every John Kiriaku video that you see on YouTube, the comments are like, oh, my God, this guy's an amazing storyteller. Because he is.
- [31:17]
B
It's John Kiriaku bot campaign. He pays for it. It. Oh, yeah.
- [31:21]
A
You never know. I'm with, yeah, Sputnik.
- [31:23]
B
We love each other.
- [31:25]
A
We do.
- [31:25]
B
We do.
- [31:25]
A
We talk about.
- [31:26]
B
Back at gru, they're like, more comments in English.
- [31:29]
A
Yeah, yeah. But I asked him. I was like, how can you. How. How can people, like, become better storytellers and be more articulate? And he goes, well, let me start with a story. So I figured he'd get a kick out of it.
- [31:41]
B
Yeah, yeah. Think about how he had to start his career, though, you know? And for people who haven't heard Dalton's John Kiriakou episodes, go check those out. He's been on my show, too. The guy's prolific. He's been on Danny Jones's show a bunch now. He's starting to go on a lot of different things, but he started off, like, almost the very front end of his CIA career as, like, the lead profiler of, at that point, a younger Saddam Hussein. And so his job is to take all these wild facts about this crazy dictator who shoots shotguns in the air and, you know, executes people, but runs this country with an iron fist that happens to have a lot of oil. His job is to take all that. That. And be able to put it into something that is both. That. That is all of informative, entertaining, concise, to the point, and paints a picture for the president of the United States when he might be making a war decision. So, like, to me, if I had to point to it, he definitely has natural talents that he's had since he was a kid. There's no doubt about that. There's a communication expertise there. But if I were guessing, he probably really, really developed that craft at that early point in his career when he had to take a lot of information and put it down into something that accomplished those five things.
- [33:01]
A
Yeah, dude, it's crazy when you say it like that, too. It's. It's. It's kind of the first I've thought of it like that. That, you know, the directorate of analysis at the CIA, those analysts, that's a very specific type of brain that I just. Just can't wrap my own around. But the thing about John is he started in analysis, and then he went to operations, and then he became a case officer. So he's got both.
- [33:24]
B
He's got everything, man. He even saw management back at home, too. You know what I mean? Like, he really. You want to talk about a guy who saw a lot of the major spectrums of CIA up close and personal. He's.
- [33:36]
A
He's one of them, you know, real deal, bro.
- [33:38]
B
Yeah, but, you know, you talk about first being interested and listening to a lot of stuff. It's just funny that it goes this way. That's in, like, self help and things like that. And you're like, yeah, so that got me into podcasts. And then eventually you're like, CIA intelligence. Like, what's the. Was that always something you were interested in that world?
- [33:58]
A
No, man. And, like, to. To be fair, I am. I'm starting to come back to that, too. Like, I. And I, you know, we can. I'll talk about this a little later, but, like, I want to. I want to start doing more content. Excuse me. That helps people. So, like, that was something. Like, that was something that occurred to me a little recently. And, like, the last episode I did was with a guy named Clark Fredericks, who. He was sexually abused as a child. He ended up killing the guy that abused him. It's a long story, but, like, for that, for example, like, we men, like, we internalize things, and there's a lot of men that are in that situation. And if I could put something out that helps one person, that's a wonderful win for me. And that's one of the ones that I'm most proud of.
- [34:39]
B
What. What is that story? I didn't. I. I saw a clip from that podcast, but I didn't see the podcast.
- [34:44]
A
Yeah, it's super heavy, essentially. What's that?
- [34:48]
B
We got time.
- [34:49]
A
Yeah. No, but he. So his name is Clark Fredericks.
- [34:52]
B
He.
- [34:52]
A
He grew up in Jersey, actually, and he basically was abused by his close family friend who was like a pillar in the community in this town of Stillwater. Guy was a boy Scout leader. He was a police officer, like an authority figure, which is so up because it's like, you're gonna run in the police. He is the police, Those. That sort of thing. So it went on for. You know, it went on for a long time. And Clark, he. I think this is when he was, like, gosh, before he was 10 years old, like, young. And he ended up growing up, you know, he. He became a drug addict, a gambling addict. Spiraled, as you would.
- [35:30]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [35:31]
A
Internalizing this sort of trauma. And so he. Clark lived in. In the same town, like, all these years, and one day he saw this guy, Dennis Pegg, who abused him in a quick check. And Dennis had with him like, another little boy. And he. The little boy called Dennis the name that. Like a nickname that Dennis used to make Clark call him. And that just, like, sent Clark. And so what happened was he, again, he was deep in drugs. And alcohol and spiraling at this time.
- [36:03]
B
Trip Planner by Expedia. You were made to outdo your holiday, your hammocking, and your pooling. We were made to help organize the competition. Expedia made to travel. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. When you visit the doctor, you probably hand over your insurance, your ID and contact details. It's just one of the many places that has your personal info. And if any of them accidentally expose it, you could be at risk for identity theft. Lifelock monitors millions of data points a second. If you become a victim, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year@lifelock.com podcast terms apply.
- [36:48]
A
He ended up driving to Dennis's house. And dude, this is the craziest part of that story. He or one of them, to me, he hadn't seen the guy in however many years. And he. He drives to his house and kicks his front door open, and he's got a knife in his hand. And Dennis Pegg is just sitting on his couch watching TV. And if you're. If somebody's in your doorway at 9pm with a knife in their hand, looking enraged, he. Dennis turns to the door and he goes, hey, how are you? Like, that is that abuser mentality is like, I fucking own you.
- [37:30]
B
I'm way above you.
- [37:31]
A
Which is. That is one of the craziest things. Anyway, and that's what Clark said. He's like. He's like, dude, like, apologize. Like, say, listen, Like, I'm sick. I presumably ruined your life and your psyche and your masculinity and all these, all these effects on, like, I. This is what I did to you. I'm sorry. Like, if there's any way, like, I can make it right, like, let's sit down. Let's talk. Like, do that. That's. That's what Clark said. But he goes, hey, how are you? And Clark said that just like, sent him and he just rushed into his house and stabbed him to death.
- [38:05]
B
Now, what. What happened after that? And how did this all come out? The real truth, obviously. What. What had happened? How long was this?
- [38:12]
A
Oh, gosh, dude, it wasn't that long ago. It was like, probably. Well, actually, he just got out. It was probably around 10 years ago because he only got five years, which.
- [38:23]
B
Probably five years too many.
- [38:25]
A
Yeah. And that was one thing that I, I tried not to interject my own opinion. And because this is the thing, like, I. I'll just say it. I'm not gonna cry a tear over a dead Pedophile. I don't give a fuck.
- [38:35]
B
Right?
- [38:35]
A
You know, I think that's the worst thing you can do on planet Earth. Like, children especially, man, they're just. But at the same time, if you, if you kill your abuser. And again, a lot of. A lot of victims have that thought cross their mind. If you kill them and you go to jail for it, they own you until the day you die. Like, they, They're. You know what I mean? Like, if you, if you go to jail for the rest of your life, like, they. They own your entire life, and you can't let that happen. And that's part of the reason that I had him on, because he talks about now, like, how to. How to deal with this, how to fix this trauma, you know?
- [39:09]
B
How long has he been out of prison?
- [39:10]
A
Just a couple years.
- [39:11]
B
Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna have to watch that. That's. That's. Should have an incredible story. Yeah, that's. I. I would like to. That's. That's an incredible story. I mean, the fact that something like that. It's almost like the universe lining it up, though, for that outcome to happen, because he hears. He sees him with another little kid. He sees himself in that little kid, and then he hears the little kid use the same nickname, which is just like. That's just. That sends a shiver up my spine. It's like, you don't. You. I can only imagine you're. You leave your body when that happens. You. You. It's like the Manchurian Candidate gets flipped on. I get it. You know, where it. It's also a protection mode because like I said, he sees himself in that little kid. He's like, so that's happening. And did that come out, I guess, like in court or in the process, that it was like this other kid admitted that the. That he was being abused by the guy too. Did that ever come out?
- [40:11]
A
The other kid? Oh, no, not this little kid. But it did come out after the fact that, like, a lot of people had made accusations and that sort of thing, because Clark had. He'd never told anyone prior to that night.
- [40:23]
B
Never told his parents.
- [40:24]
A
His dad asked him. He sat him down. He's like, hey, I've been hearing rumors about this Dennis Pegg guy. Like, did he ever touch you? And like, dude, that's the thing too, is, like, he explains this really well in the podcast. And he's like, these, These guys, they. They. They rely on secrecy and they. It's like he. He just drilled it into him from a young age. Man, and like, the way he. The way he. Dennis said to Clark when he was a kid, he's like, can you keep a secret? You know, because we can't be friends if you can't keep a secret. But this was in the beginning, the very beginning of the grooming stage. And that's the other thing, bro, is like, these people, they have time. They're gonna. They're gonna take it step by step, and they're like, methodical. And it's, It's. It's heavy. And really, it's. It's tough subject matter. It really is. But, like, there's. There. These people are out there and, and they're doing these things. And like, if you're a parent, you need to be able to protect your children. You need to be able to ask them the right questions, because, again, you're. You're working against what's been planted in their head by that abuser, and that abuser knows all the psychological buttons to push. You know what I mean? So, yeah, just. It was a tough one, bro. But, like, again, I. The comments that, That I saw, and I'm. I'm proud of that one. And like, again, if that's why I said in the very beginning of that interview with him, I was like, if this helps one person, wonderful. And. And it seems like it did. So, yeah.
- [41:56]
B
I agree with you that that's like the worst thing. That and murder are the worst things you. You can do on earth. And in a. When, when these people, these sick people do that to little kids, they. They murder their souls. And they are never. To say they don't live a normal life would be a massive understatement. And it's like, do you even get to enjoy life or see what it's all about? But this has been something that I've learned about, unfortunately, on this podcast with other people about how deep rooted some of this is, unfortunately, in not only human history, but modern human history. I know you've probably come across it as well through some of your guests, but not, not even to single out places. I'm going to bring this to the whole world. But you look at countries in the Middle east, for example, it's open. They. They do it openly. They have terms for it. There's terms for it in Pakistan. There's terms for it in Afghanistan. We've all heard the phrase from multiple different people on this show who served in different parts of the military at different times in Afghanistan. They have all talked about witnessing it and how the common refrain out there in, in, in the. Obviously not. It's translated, but the refrain is, you know, women are for kids and boys are for fun. And that's, that's what they say. And I've had, I mean, I think it was Nick Irving talked about having a. Literally pull people off of kids. I, I believe it was Nick. Check that. It might have been Dale. Com. So I forget, but I think Prince.
- [43:32]
A
Has talked about it.
- [43:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, Eric Prince talked about it as well. I can't remember if that was on camera or off, but they all talk about it. And there's this thing that can happen where you get suspended in this idea that like, oh, that's, that's a different culture. That's, that's what they do there. As if there's not something weird and twisted in a percentage of the population, of the human population. And the fact of the matter is that there is. And these people, we now have more awareness of it, thank God, within our own country, within America that like these, these people walk among us. And it's not one or two, you know, but it's also the scariest thing because that's like the worst thing you can accuse someone of being, you know, but there are people. It's not always, unfortunately, just a regular stereotype of the creepy looking dude with the glasses who looks like he has no friends. There are a lot of quote unquote normal looking people who go normally about life, are married with a wife and kids who do this kind of thing. And I can tell you I'm not a parent yet, but when I am, that's, that's one of my ultimate fears. Like who are you letting your kid around and you know, with. They play sports or. You just mentioned that guy was like a Boy Scout leader as well, which I would never let my kids in the Boy Scout. Sorry, but like, you know, they call them the wee blows for a reason. But what, you never heard that they're called the weeblows. You never heard this?
- [44:59]
A
I get the joke, but Jesus.
- [45:01]
B
Pause. I'm just saying, but you know, you know what I mean?
- [45:04]
A
I do know what you mean.
- [45:05]
B
It's on a serious note. It's, it is, it's, it's terrifying. It's, it's a terrifying thing.
- [45:10]
A
Well, to your point, I mean, that's one of the things he said. He's like, if, you know, if your kid's got a coach or a, you know, any preface that by saying it is a little bit of a cynical way to look at it, but he's like, if Your kid's coach or their piano teacher or whoever it is is taking an extreme interest in your child. Scary, right? That coupled with the fact that, like, they're always around children, they don't have peer friends and that sort of thing. Like, that's when. When you know something's.
- [45:36]
B
Yes. And, and hopefully there's some signs sometimes that really do make it obvious. Again, it's scary when there's ones that aren't. This guy was a cop, too. It's like, what the. Yeah, but I don't know. That might be something that's a good podcast idea having in, like, some sort of medical doctor psychiatrist who studies this, I guess whatever you call it, this trait that exists in some people and the different ways it forms because it's not unitary. It's not like it's all the same. Oh, that's the DNA sequence. Otherwise they'd probably be ready to eliminate that right now. There's experiences, there's things. Unfortunately, the saddest one, it's like when it happens to them and then they become that which you hear about all the time. It's like, it's a very disgusting, complicated, dark path to go down. But I, I think exploring that more to try to understand that could, could also be helpful. Like you said, if it helps one person or helps one parent to spot something, that could be huge.
- [46:36]
A
Dude, I, And I agree. And I think that a lot of. When these guys get caught and go to court, they claim like, it was done to me and that's why I do this. But in my opinion, like, that you. If, if that's the case and you're an abuser, you know firsthand the effects that this has on a person's psyche and the way that it ruins someone, ruins someone's life. So for you then, now to perpetuate that and do it to other children, knowing what it is that you're doing, it's even worse, in my opinion.
- [47:07]
B
I think there's a good argument to be made there. I. I don't know. Unfortunately, it also gets into, like, people's, I guess, like, in this case, primary intimate experiences. And so there's a. There's a different, in this case, sick normalcy that they're exposed to, and I use that word there, where it becomes, oh, that's. Even if their mind's saying this isn't normal, they. They don't know how their body's reacting to that. I, I don't know. I, I can't speak to that, but I know it's a Complicated, complicated psychology. It's just, you know, like, one thing I know. Well, there's two things I know. Number one, the minute you have a kid, your whole life changes. Your perspective changes. And you can't know that until you do it. I know that. The second thing that I at least have a good idea about from personal experience as far as, like, observing other parents and my own parents and stuff like that over the years is like, I know with my kids, I am going to want. I don't want them to fear consequences for stuff that they're afraid of talking about. I don't want them to feel like, oh, if I bring this up with my dad, he might get mad at me and I might get in trouble. I want. That's not to say I'm going to be like, buddy, buddy with my kid. Like, that's not what you want to do. You have to have that parent child relationship and have that right dynamic. But, like, I never want someone to fear being penalized for telling the truth or sharing thoughts, no matter how dark they might be. Because if I can't be like that safe space for them to do that, who the is gonna. Is gonna be that? And what precedent does that set for things in the future that could happen to them that then they're afraid to come to me with? And I've just seen this over and over again where parents. And I'm not even blaming the parents as, like, bad people, but, like, they're so all over their kids or whatever that their kids get afraid to share things with them and that. That's how things like this can happen.
- [49:12]
A
Yeah, dude, I think that's a wonderful mindset to have and something that, like, is pretty cool that you picked up on because I think that's. That's so true. And especially when there's other circ. When there's other subconscious roots and circumstances behind.
- [49:28]
B
Yes.
- [49:28]
A
The things that your kids don't want to tell you, you know, because God. Man. With that one. Like, just as a man. So this is the thing. Do you know. Do you know, you know the book, the Trauma Keeps the Score or the Body Keeps the Score? By gosh. What's his name? Bessel? Vander?
- [49:46]
B
Kolk? No.
- [49:48]
A
So I. I did a little bit of, like, background on. On trauma before I had Clark on. Just to. Again, I want to. I want to understand and, you know, just be as empathetic as possible and that sort of thing.
- [50:00]
B
That's awesome.
- [50:01]
A
And the way he explained it was such a good example. And it was like, okay, so like, if you and I are sitting in this podcast studio right now, and I just right now, like, reach across the studio and start swinging at you, right? You're going to be like, what the fuck? Like, this Dalton guy is out of his mind. I don't know. You might tell whoever, like, the dude did the weirdest thing happened. This guy's fucking crazy. Right? Whereas if you were a six year old and I leaned across the table and start beating the crap out of you, you would say to yourself, what did I do wrong?
- [50:32]
B
Yes.
- [50:32]
A
You would say, oh, this is me. Like, I am undesirable in some way. Like, there, There's. There must have been some reason for. For Dalton to snap and do that, right? They. As if you're. If you're an abuse victim, you can't internalize the fact that it's not your fault. So everything becomes immediately centered on yourself, and you start to build this resentment towards yourself, and it's all these, like, secondary and tertiary effects. Like the one that got me was like, the. The effects on your masculinity, right? Because you start to think about, like, okay, why didn't I fight back? Number one. Like that. That's. That's one part. Number two is like, did I like it? Did I. Am I homosexual? And that's a very common thing that comes out of it, too, on, like a man. On. On boy type scenario. So, yeah, man, I. It was. It was a heavy one, to tell you the truth. But, like, I just. God, man, Clark, he bared his soul in there, bro. And like, I. He.
- [51:27]
B
How did you find this guy?
- [51:29]
A
His. Somebody from Simon and Schuster. I think his publisher reached out to me, and I think it was.
- [51:38]
B
So he just wrote a book about the whole experience.
- [51:40]
A
Yeah, he. So he just came out with this book.
- [51:42]
B
That's great.
- [51:43]
A
And. And I was like, absolutely. You know, I think it's a perfect fit because it's got, you know, just the right amount of, like, story kind of stuff that I would have on my show. And, and yeah, dude, like I said, I was kind of. You just had a moment early in the year where I was like, I need to. I need to start helping people a little more.
- [52:03]
B
Yeah, you know, well, that's, you know, storytelling is. How is. Is a part of the niche in which you built your channel. So if there's a way to offload that into combining with helping people in some way, I think that's great. And I think also, like, in my own experience, I don't know if you've seen this yet. Don't let me speak for you. But. But you find that you bring in people to talk who are from this part of the world or do this thing, whatever job it might be. And then in the course of the conversation where we're going through their expertise or whatever, there's things that happen naturally where you realize that people who have developed a relationship with them, listening to them for the last hour or whatever it's been, are now locked in on, you know, their credibility as a person, such that they can then offer some advice unexpectedly on certain things from their own experiences. And it has a heavier effect because it's almost like they've established who they are to people. So you get that second order effect on a podcast which also includes people at home being like, wow, that. That really helped me. And I. I love seeing those comments and stuff. I get those all the time with different people. I bring on saying, oh, so and so, you know, I. I was really enjoying them talking about this, but it really hit me when they talked about this in my life that this similar thing has happened. You're like, whoa, like they were able to reach someone through that. It's very cool.
- [53:24]
A
Yeah, it's awesome. And yeah, dude. So it's funny, we went down a little estuary there, as you'd call it. But your original question was like, how the hell did I go from self help to intelligence? And I think that was just a byproduct of like getting exposed to the podcast scene. So like, for example, the first time Kiriakou was on Danny when he was rather portly, I don't know how many years ago that was.
- [53:49]
B
I was pre stomach surgery.
- [53:51]
A
Yeah, exactly. I was like, dude, you look. You look phenomenal.
- [53:53]
B
He looks awesome.
- [53:54]
A
He looks great. But yeah, so stuff like that. And then like stuff like I. I watched Jim Lawler on your show at your parents house.
- [54:03]
B
Oh yeah, Mad dog Jim.
- [54:05]
A
Yeah. And then. And then of course, Sean, man, I. I think that like, again, I. It's not that. It's not that in my opinion, like Sean invented this military or intelligence interview. He didn't invent the genre. I lived it. Yes, but what I'm getting at is he just. He started what he started and he just did it way, way better than everybody else that was already in that niche. So I got exposed to his show and then I started, you know, hearing these stories from like former special operations guys, former, you know, intelligence officers and like was just hooked on. I thought it was just. I still, obviously, I still think it's the coolest thing ever Bro. And it's why, I think it's just this element of like taking a peek behind the curtain of these types of worlds that like, we are not privy to because we don't have, you know. Yeah, I think that's what it is. Just. And like, dude, man. Especially like the special operations guys, first of all. And you don't necessarily have to be special operations could have been, you know, conventional force, like whatever. But those stories that I started listening to, I was like, these are incredible stories, man. They are the best of humanity, they're the worst of humanity. And like again, man, the way, the way Sean set them up, like in how good of an interviewer he is, like he would always get them because that's a thing too, man. Like I had, I had Brent Tucker on my show. He's a former Delta Force operator and people seem to enjoy that one. And in my opinion, what sets, what sets a an interview like that apart is not like the chest beating like, oh, you know, I got on a helicopter at 3am under nods and you know, smoke the sky. Like, yeah. Fuck yeah. People want to hear those stories because they're awesome. I love hear about terrorists getting smoked, obviously. But then there's the element of like, like the struggles that people can relate to, right? So like whether if it's a guy like that, like if they had some, some stuff manifest related to TBI or you know, their, their issues transitioning out of the military and finding a new purpose and like those are the real struggles in the vulnerab could then relate to. And that's what sets it apart. And again for, with Sean, for example, that happened in every single interview he did. Like every interview he put out. I was like, this is amazing. And like that's, that's in my opinion, how he built his brand. When I see that thumbnail, I was like, oh, it's going to be a fucking banger. And I'm clicking on it.
- [56:47]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Sean, the thing that is amazing and what he was able to do at the beginning is he had lived that from every spectrum of it. I mean, you're talking about a long time Navy seal, tip of the spear kind of guy, ended up doing, you know, GRS at CIA, which, you know, that's intense surveillance and security around the world. And he was able to take all that understanding from his own little lens of it, right? Because you only go to the places you go and then bring in all these other people who went to different places or were in the same place at a different time doing different things, doing different jobs, and relate to them on that level. Even if he wasn't there at the same time they were, and they weren't there at the same time he was. There's just something there that really not many other people could get. And, you know, you look at like the DJ Shipley one that he did, which is like an all timer.
- [57:45]
A
It's one of my top three.
- [57:47]
B
Yeah, there's just a even, you know what Even whacked bin Laden guy, Rob o'. Neal. That guy's been on every podcast known to man. I mean, I, I think he's been on 40,000 podcasts. But the Sean one, now, I haven't watched all 40,000. I've probably watched five of them, maybe. Right. Kind of the same thing on a lot of them. And I'm not blaming the podcast there. You know, he's kind of telling the story. But the Sean one was by far the best one. Just because you were getting an extra layer from a guy who got it and understood. And I just think that's like, you want to talk about building a brand and doing it in a genuine way, that, that. Because that's something that, like, you know, now Sean's so big, people love attacking big people, but, like, you can never take that away from him. He built what he built by just taking his own life experiences and saying, I want to talk with cool people who might understand this and, and have their own understanding of it from their angle. And to your point, I agree. That's how when I first found his show, maybe like three and a half years ago, four years ago, something like that, it was the same thought every time. It was like, like, all right, production is great, number one. Love that.
- [58:58]
A
Yeah.
- [58:59]
B
But secondly, you know, you're like, I'm not in the mood to listen to that when I'm in the mood to listen to Theo Vaughn. These are two very different things. Right. Like, I'm in totally different moods with those. So if. If I'm over here in this mood, I'm clicking that with Sean. And, and, you know, it's cool that you drew a lot of inspiration from that too.
- [59:17]
A
Oh, dude. Big time. And I think again, like, I'm. I'm a huge fan. I always give him his flowers, like, when, you know, I guess like I said, I don't really talk a ton on my podcast, but when I talk to people, or even now, like, gosh, man. Yeah, it was, it was obviously the big three were, were him, Danny and you that inspired me to get my stuff going. And I learned different things from the three of you guys. But what I will say about Sean is in. In my opinion, I think that he just. Like, I think that there's. Dude, this thing is hard to do at a high level in. Across the board, right? There's a lot of different buckets. If you have a podcast, there's, you know, like you said, there's audio, video quality, there's marketing, there's shorts, There's. There's clips, there's your studio setup, there's production quality, there's cutting a trailer. There's everything. And I think that he, out of anyone in the space, fills those buckets closest to the top across the board. Like, if Rogue, you know, Rogan is the Godfather, bro, we wouldn't be sitting here today if it wasn't for him. But in my opinion, I. I think Sean is the goat. So. Yeah. Yeah, I think that it did. Like, I obviously have taken a ton of inspiration from him, and now I still do.
- [60:29]
B
Obviously, what was cool with him is he's not a. He's not a talker. He's. That's. I think that's what makes him greatest job. He gets other people going. And Sean. Sean is a very, very smart guy. There's a slight delay with him talking because he had. I don't know, he had, like, 10 TBIs or something. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, the guy saw so much combat or whatever, so. So, like, I picked up on that, especially when I was with him. I was like, okay, like, you know, don't go all New Jersey on him the whole time. You know what I mean? Like, that's. That's a little much, but it takes a little while to get him going. But, man, once he gets going and you really get there on him, first of all, breaking down analytically, all his experiences from, like, a strategy perspective, from a skills perspective, from military perspective, all this stuff that's like listening to, like, a legendary general talk. And then to your point, when he starts getting to the. How it all made him feel and how it all made him feel later when perspectives changed and he could think back on it. I don't know. That was really special for me to hear because it's like, damn, you know, this guy is able to always have all these other people on who talk about this, but now you hear it from the horse's mouth, and you realize, like, hey, you know, you. You put him up against any of the incredible stories he's had on. He's right there with him himself, which is pretty cool.
- [61:53]
A
Yeah, Dude, I mean, look at what he's done with his show and his marketing. You can't be an idiot to do that. Like, as, as, as an entrepreneur, all you do is make decisions all day, especially at a scale like his. I would imagine that's probably all he does is make decisions. And like, I think he's pretty spot on with, with his accuracy. Like, he, he, he makes a lot of good decisions. Anyway, that was a great podcast when you.
- [62:17]
B
Thank you.
- [62:17]
A
When you had him on. I really.
- [62:18]
B
Yeah, I do want to get. I want to give two points of credit there. Number one, 100 on Sean. And another piece of credit on Sean is. Sean is the guy who's like, this looks like the broad area we need to do something, and then he empowers people to do it. And so the second point of credit I think, and you know, Sean's given this as well over the years, is a guy he's worked with for a long time. Kemba Williams is a real. He's. He's a genius. He's. He is a. I've talked with Campbell now for the last three years. Like, that dude is looking at everything and saying, like, okay, this works. Now how do we do something that's ours that can accomplish that? And Sean. And there's a lot of guys on Sean's team. I, I don't know now because he's got a bigger team, but Sean has always empowered people to say, like, okay, here's the check boxes. I want to make sure we do. You go do it. And I think that that's, that's also like, you know, that's a really good leadership trait. That's probably something he developed watching the good versions of that and the bad versions of that in the military and trying to take the good ones and bring it back to his business. But, you know, the guy's done whatever it is, like 250 episodes or something, which in the context of, like, Joe Rogan is like, not many compared to that, but was able to have his show be one of the biggest in the world, I'd say by, you know, like, episode 60, which is like, kind of unheard of. And it goes to show, like all that back end stuff you talk about and then being able to do it correctly, it adds up.
- [63:54]
A
Yeah, I think that's a tough one too, man. Just like, I think that's a superpower is that delegation that you talk about. And like, obviously you have to find the right people and people that you trust. But, like, this is, you know, know, this is Your baby, you know, so you're very hesitant to hand the keys over to somebody, and that's. But you can. You can't do it all yourself forever if you want.
- [64:14]
B
That's been the hardest thing for me. I don't know.
- [64:15]
A
I bet you. But, like, I waited and do it all myself.
- [64:18]
B
So, yeah, I waited too long to start handing things off. But when you start moving faster, too, you end up not having a choice on that. And, like, have you burned out at all?
- [64:35]
A
Yes, but not. I go through kind of peaks and troughs. But, like, I. I've. I haven't burned out because of the podcast. I've burned out because I haven't managed my time properly to do the right things for myself.
- [64:51]
B
What does that mean?
- [64:52]
A
Meaning, like, I had. Had, you know, Montana or Wyoming on my mind over the past two years and never pulled the trigger on it until a couple months ago. So now I make a point to do that for three days every month, every two months. And like, that. That gives me more juice moving forward. Or like, I don't know if. I mean, I. Dude, I work seven days a week. I don't really take a day off. I'm sure you're the exact same. But, like, we don't feel that we're entitled to these sorts of things.
- [65:23]
B
That's right.
- [65:24]
A
And, like, sometimes our brains and our bodies have their own idea of what they need to move forward. And, like, you feel like you're in the driver's seat and with the joystick in your hand, but, like, you don't. Sometimes you need to just, like, feed the machine what it needs. And the machine really is. Is my brain, bro. Like, you know, that's. It's complicated. And, like, I just. I've been doing things more for myself. I'll say yeah, to. To. And I think that, that again, that three days in Montana, that's three days that I'm not working. But that'll keep. That'll get me, you know, back to 120 when I get back. So it's all. It pays itself off immediately.
- [66:03]
B
Yeah, it's a strange balance there, for sure. Like, and I think everyone's got to find that themselves. It's something I've had to focus on more over the past year. I still, you know, I don't do many of those. It's. I. I should probably do some more. But it's also, like, this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law not available in all states. That's the other thing about adding on people too. You feel an added sense of responsibility as well because now you're, you're paying other people's income and you want to make sure you can keep doing that because they're, they're relying on you. And, and I like that pressure. I think it's a really cool thing. But you know, I'm still trying to navigate how, how I let that impact my, my work life balance. And I can't say that I figured that out perfectly yet at all.
- [67:16]
A
Yeah, it's. Gosh, dude, I was just, I was just at my parents house last night and I was talking to my mom about this and I think you can probably relate to this. You, when you, when you are obsessed with something and like, dude, this is all I think about from the moment that I wake up to the moment that I go to sleep. It's, it's all, you know, I'm fucking obsessed with it. But when you, when you care that deeply about something, you take from other buckets and you neglect other buckets being social life, romantic relationships, time with your family. And like, I'm not complaining. This is the life that I've chosen and I love it. I'm not, I don't plan on changing it. But my, my only point is like I'm, I'm still working out what the balance is. I'm still working out how often I'm gonna go see my family because they may not be around forever, but like, like there's no handbook on it, bro. And like that's, you know, it's, it's just.
- [68:15]
B
Yeah, yeah. The balance between being present and also prioritizing the things that are right in front of you is, is, is a tough one for sure. And I think about that a lot. I try not to live my life in fear of like, well, what if they're not here or whatever. But I do try to think about like, who am I seeing and how much are my two feet on the ground when I'm doing that. You know, even like when my grandpa was, was getting sick and we did this was months ago, he ended up dying recently, but long before that we thought he was gonna die. Like there was a point for two weeks where I'm like, you know what? I do have a ton to do and if it doesn't happen, the Bills don't get paid this month, so I can't stop work just like all my cousins couldn't either, by the way. But what I can do is get my workout in, in the morning, drive down there, work right next to him, take some time off, spend a little time with him, come back at night and see if I can do it the next day too. And like, thinking back on that now, it's, it's a special thing because I did that for like 12 to 4. There was like a 15 day period where I did it like 11 or 12 times. And you know, now it's like I'm at peace with, with the fact that he did finally go and whatever. And this is someone I spent, spent a remarkable amount of time within my life. And yet even during my busiest years where I was really going after it and putting my life on pause, I had time to spend with him. That's a big thing with me. I don't, I feel like I'm at a loss already. If I say I'm making time to do things, if I'm making time, it, you know, it's like there's effort that has to be there. And I, I get that it's a semantics thing, but like you have to also have time. And that is why, by the way, you doing what you're doing now at this point, and you know, I'm in the same boat as you are in a lot of ways. It's like this is when we're, we don't have wives, we don't have kids at this point. This is the last time we can have this amount of focus on something like this. Because I will never be an absentee dad or an absentee husband or something like that because I'm this, that's working seven days a week, week till I die. That's not happening. But what I can do is if I'm entering an extremely competitive space, a very hard business, something that very few people make, and I have to dedicate an inordinate amount of time, I'm going to take the time that I have when I have it to maximize it so that I can pay for the time later where I don't have to.
- [70:38]
A
Be that guy thousand percent. And you know what's funny that something that I still think about from time to time is I don't remember what, whose podcast it was, but it was Bustamante on somebody's podcast. Tough to nail it down. He's done quite a few, but he, he mentioned it was something off, off like Offhanded about you. And it was like somebody paid you a compliment about the podcast. And Bustamante said something along the. He's like. He's like, yeah, well, you know, he's. He's young, single, and obsessed. And I was like, I don't know why that comes back to me from time to time. But to your point about, this is the time, you know, like, it doesn't get any easier. But I wanted to ask you what it. What did. Was there anything that stands out that, like, you learned from your grandfather's passing just recently learned about life, maybe?
- [71:29]
B
That's a great question. I'm still processing it because we're talking and we just buried him a week ago. The guy was my hero, and. And someone who I. Who I considered a best friend who lived for 90 years. It's a great life. Life. It's not like, you know, this is a tragic at age 45 death or something like that. So I'm very grateful for that. I had him to this point in my life for many, many years, and he was with it for the first 89 years, which is great.
- [71:59]
A
That's wonderful.
- [71:59]
B
You know, and I could still have conversations with him up until about a month ago. I'd say that's all a w when you look at it, but there's still a finality of someone being gone. So there's a lot of lessons. One, there's a physical lesson, and this is something I've learned over the last few years. I'm very into fitness. I got sick there for a few years, so I. I couldn't do it. I lost my whole body, lost all my health. And now the last two years, I've invested like crazy, which was a promise I made myself, and getting better and being able to get back in the gym and do what I do. But I have turned that up times five because I watched my grandparents suddenly get very old over the past few years. And there is nothing that. That takes away human dignity more than extreme aging and just seeing those things. And someone who can't move around, can't take a. On their own. It's. I never, ever want to be like that. That's number one. So that's a. That's a lighter one. But, you know, the other thing, I don't really know if this answers your question, but it was just a really strange finality is when my. When his wife died, my grandmother died a couple years ago. That happened very quickly, and it was. It was devastating. And, you know, I have a. I have huge Families on both sides. This side has 18 cousins, 18, you know, niece, cousins, niece and nephew, cousins. Like, I have 12 aunts and uncles. Like, it's a big family. And it was very sad. But a couple days after the funeral, I felt really at peace with it. And I don't want to be callous and be like, oh, I was over it. But I felt so at peace with it. And it was because she had lived an amazing life. And then right at the end, like, got dementia and she died before that was going to get bad. Right. So she died with her dignity in a lot of ways. And so I was at peace with that. But when we were putting my grandfather's casket into the ground, I had this overwhelming, just incredible sadness fall over me because we're putting them in the ground right next to where she is. I've been to this gravesite many times since then, but I realized, oh, I didn't get over her death in a couple days or something like that. It was more that there was a piece of her that was still here because he was here and now he's not. And just like that, an entire generation's gone, and you can never get it back. You can't have that conversation with them. You can't get their advice. And, like, my mom was really breaking my heart when she was like, you know, it's like I lost my North Star. And I was like, God damn. You know? So I think there is something to be said about that. I don't have any regrets about time spent. I spent a lot of time with them over all those years. I was extremely close with them. So that whole part I'm at peace with. But the idea that I can't pick up the phone and shoot the with him or, you know, get that reassurance or make him proud, you know, when he's not here, that. That part sucks. And I know everyone out there listening. We're all human beings. We've all dealt with this stuff. I'm lucky. I'm talking about a grandparent dealing with it. I know there's a lot of people listening who are young and they had a parent die young, or even worse, they had a kid die or something like that. So it's like, in the grand scheme of things, been a really, really lucky guy. But, you know, every. Every loss hurts.
- [75:31]
A
Were you there when you passed?
- [75:33]
B
I was there. I mean, the guy wouldn't die. We said goodbye. We said goodbye like, 50 times over the last year.
- [75:42]
A
Yeah.
- [75:42]
B
So I was there that he passed on a Wednesday, the dude, sorry.
- [75:47]
A
I mean, to laugh. No, you know, people don't understand this, but I think you do.
- [75:51]
B
Yeah, it's a little bit. But, like, this part is just, like, typical, you know, Grandpa. Like, he finally had a stroke on, like a Friday morning, and now couldn't talk, couldn't move. And it was like, it's time. Like, this is. This is. No, it was already no way to live because he. He couldn't move around himself and all that. But now it's like he literally is bedridden, so he wasn't asking for food and water. So it's like, this is supposed to happen pretty fast. Lived six days without food and water. So I was there that whole weekend, Saturday and Sunday, sitting with him, talk with him. And the last time I saw him on Sunday, I. I was, like, disappointed for him that when I saw him on Saturday and came back Sunday, he was still there, because I'm like, I just. He's in pain. You're like, this is horrible for him. But I'm sitting with him there Sunday, and I said goodbye and I knew I had to come up to do work because my aunt and uncle, they're nursing doctor, they're like, this could. This could go on for weeks. I. I don't know, but I. I had a feeling that was gonna be the last time I saw him. And I was so at peace with it at that point. So I was not there when he died, like, that Wednesday, but I. I had said everything I needed to say many times over, so I'm lucky I had that. There's a lot of people who. Who don't get that. And, you know, I. I do think there's something in the end of life. Like, he had that. He had that last gas kind of thing that happens, you know, day before you die, where suddenly you get, like, this wind of energy. And I know, like, my mom was there for that. I know that was really special for him and some of his kids who were there. And, you know, the end of life is a very strange thing, man. Yeah. You know, how do you. How do you, like. You have a lot of guys on who lost dudes on the battlefield in their prime, you know, get cut down, out of nowhere. You know, one morning you're having breakfast, shooting the together that afternoon, then you're taking someone off the field in. In a body bag. How. How do you, like, comprehend that when guys like you and me haven't lived that at all?
- [77:52]
A
I think the main thing, man, is like, first of all, we're not going to Comprehend that we'll never be in that situation because they were like, they. They did it. So, you know, you and I didn't have to. And that's why. That's why we love them. But in a situation like that, bro, like, so Brent Tucker, who I had on, he told a story about his friend Chris Robinson, who was one of his. This is when Brent was a Green Beret, before he went to the unit. His best friend, Chris Robinson ended up. I forget the actual circumstances of how he got killed, but he picked up Chris's body and carried it to the helicopter. And, like, that's your best friend, man. And so, like, I'll never understand that. But what I can do is just sit across from him, like, as a human, and just sit with him as a human being, like that. That's all I can do. But again, like, this goes back to what we were talking about, about these stories being the best and the worst of humanity. Like, where the fuck else are you going to hear a story like that?
- [78:58]
B
That.
- [79:02]
A
Gosh, yeah. So, I don't know. But there is. There is something. And the reason I asked that is because there's something that I think that you can learn or conceptualize about life by watching somebody take their last breath. And, like, for me, it was the. The first time. It was. It was my grandmother. We watched. We watched. I was in the hospital when. When she passed. And again, bro, like, first of all, my. My grandfather, I wasn't. So the. The way I think of it is, like, you weren't meant to be there when he passed for whatever reason, and that's fine. Like, that kind of just is what it is. But, yeah, man, just. Just watching somebody, like, what really set that one home for me is, like, this person is at the end of their cycle. You know what I mean? And I don't know how to explain it or articulate it properly, but it really just hammered home to me the fact that, like, we're all just kind of staggered in this life, like, that'll be me one day. And, like, she was once a baby. You know what I mean? It's. I don't know. I don't. Maybe it. Maybe it sounds weird when I'm saying it that way, but just watching someone labor for breath and then just take their very last one, and then just looking at myself like a healthy young man, it puts in perspective. But, yeah, back to your. Your original point about that, man, it's. It's tough to conceptualize. And, you know, we think about it a lot now, being that people are more and more open about or talking about the fact. Talking about why we were there in the first place. So I don't know. I. I don't know how to. To think about it other than just like, let people come in and tell their stories and just listen.
- [80:40]
B
Keeps those people alive, too.
- [80:42]
A
Exactly among.
- [80:43]
B
You know what I mean? Because it's a good point. One of the things that really bothers me about these wars is the guys who are sent there aren't the ones making those decisions.
- [80:53]
A
Yeah.
- [80:54]
B
And you see the consequences that happen that they have to live through. And then the ones who come home, they survive. But that number on a page, which is what we make it on the news back here, you know. Oh, such and such. Number of soldiers died in Iraq. It's a number on a page. That number on a page includes people that they went to war with. Literally. Literally, like. Like, figuratively. Literally. The whole thing. And I think it's really special when a show like yours can shine a light on that. And, you know, that guy. I'm gonna make up a name right now, but, you know, Lieutenant Dan Campbell, who died in this battle that no one even knew about, that was actually crazy. And here were the consequences of what happened there. You can understand what he was about, who he was, who he left behind. The guy who's talking in front of you, who's doing his best to keep it together and also carry forward that dude's legacy and not let people forget. Because that's a great image you give about when you watch someone leave this earth, especially when they're older, too. And it's like, wow, they've lived a really long time. They leave. And then, you know, five minutes goes by, ten minutes go by, people leave the room. You start working on the obituary.
- [82:08]
A
Yeah.
- [82:08]
B
You go back, you answer some emails that you missed from work. Work. While you were waiting for that to happen, you bury them. Five days later, you go, you throw a few flowers on the casket. The grave diggers there wearing, like, a Led Zeppelin T shirt says, thanks. You go and eat some burgers somewhere while they're getting buried, and life goes on. And I really disappoint myself sometimes. Like, where I'm like, there's that I'll get afraid of or fear the outcome of or whatever, and. And all these things and the repercussions, and obviously I don't do it in here because I just. I don't have a choice. I got to do my business here.
- [82:45]
A
But.
- [82:46]
B
And, you know, I fail to remember the fact that One day I'm just gonna be dead whenever that is. And five minutes later, life is gonna go on. Hopefully I left the world a better place than. Than it was when I got here. But I'm just one of 8 billion and we all meet the same end, you know, It's a heavy thing, but it's. At the end of the day, it's very simple ending. I know.
- [83:09]
A
Yeah, I. Dude, the life goes on thing like that, the finality of death, I think that's the thing that bugs me out the most at this stage of my life is gosh, man, like, you know, you know Alex Hormozi, I'm sure, sure he's got a great lens about this, about how you can be, Fuck, I don't know, like some president of some country, somebody really important that in theory moves mountains in history. And then a couple years later, nobody gives a shit about you anymore. So if nobody cares about that person, then the average person, I don't know, man. And it's not that like everybody needs to, you know, move mountains with their time on earth and be immortalized and remembered. I think it's really cool what you and I do because hopefully if YouTube is around forever, that shit'll be on the Internet forever. So I guess in some way that is just you and I sticking around, which is cool to me.
- [84:08]
B
Strange, right? There's like a record that we were here.
- [84:11]
A
Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully if, you know, OpenAI doesn't just consume the world and burn it to the ground. But yeah, man, that one freaks me out. It's one that I'm still wrapping my head around. The life goes on thing.
- [84:28]
B
What do you think happens when we die?
- [84:35]
A
As far as I can tell, just go back to sleep, you know. But there is things that, like, I don't know, there's weird, unexplainable things that happen. And you know, after people are gone and you get weird messages from them and I know, like he, you know, I'm. I. I do believe in some of the woo woo type stuff. Not exactly that, but I think the eye sees what it wants. But I don't know, man. What do you think?
- [85:02]
B
I don't know. I. I don't know. What? I don't know. That is how I try to live my life. I do think that it all came from somewhere for sure. I think something created this. How many layers away that is? I have no idea. Are any of the religions right or are they all completely wrong? I don't know. And I don't want to say I Don't care. That'd be a little callous to say. But, like, I try to control what I can control, which is I'm here for however long I'm here, which I don't control what that is. But while I am here, I want to do good wherever I can, help people out wherever I can, and know that one day, in some way to something, I'm gonna have to answer for that. So I better hope I did that to the best level that I can. But as far as what happens when those eyes shut. Yeah. I mean, maybe it's. Maybe it's exactly what you say. You just go. Go back to sleep. I. I don't know. Know. It's. It's a. It's a weird. It's very weird thing to think about. I remember when my uncle died when I was, like, 16, I was talking with one of my older cousins about it. It was like twice my age, and. And I just. And they were a really, really smart, really smart person. And they're like, yeah, death never gets clearer. They were literally twice my age at the time. So I'm really looking up to this person. Person. And that always stuck with me because I'm like, they don't have anything more figured out than I do, and they've. And they had lived a crazy life to that point. So I'm like, yeah, I don't know if that's one of those things that with age comes wisdom. I. I think it's just. It's too unexplainable. And I think some of the stories about people who passed over and came back are really cool. You know, maybe some of that really is true. I'm up into that. But who the knows, man, you know?
- [86:53]
A
Yeah. Well, I think the only thing you can do is live a life so that when that time comes or you feel like it's approaching, if you're lucky enough to grow old, then you're as content with it as you could be without seeing what's behind the curtain.
- [87:08]
B
Hell yeah, man. Now you keep bringing up Brent Tucker, by the way. So he. He's all over the Internet because he's got that anti hero podcast and all that. I don't. Did he have that when you had him on? Did he already have that? That.
- [87:19]
A
Yes, but. So it was started by his co host, and Brent became a permanent host on it at some point, and I believe. Yes, yes, he did have it when I had him on.
- [87:30]
B
Okay. H. How did you first connect with him?
- [87:33]
A
Dude, I love that guy. I really do. How I first connected with him is he was my second episode. So after Jon and again, like, we'll. We'll talk about Jon and like the character of some of these people to show up, up and take a flight and leave their families to go on a platform that. I probably had like 7,000 subs when Brent came on. But I, I connected with him just by, just by reaching out to him and, and asking him to come on the show because I, I'd seen him on. On some other stuff, maybe Team House. What the heck else was he on that I saw him on? And I was like, this guy is. Yeah, I, I need to have him on. So. Yeah, that's. That's how we, we met. But great dude.
- [88:24]
B
And you did the whole. I like that model sometimes where it's like, you know, you're trying to do three hour episodes or something like that, but guy keeps going, you're not going to stop him. So that was a couple. When, when. When you put that out, which, which was really good because it also, it gives people a chance to see different parts of their story too, if they're more interested in that or another. But, but you know, that's another one. I mean, that's your second podcast. You start with John Kiriaku. Then you go to a guy who was. Tip of the spear.
- [88:52]
A
Yeah.
- [88:53]
B
You know, either get mowed down or mow down.
- [88:57]
A
Mow down.
- [88:57]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Obviously we know he fell on, but like that's pretty heavy to. To you're jumping right the in there once again.
- [89:05]
A
Yeah. What I will say about that is that was. I think he'd be okay with me saying this and like, I hope people don't take this the wrong way, but that was a different type of nerves when I sat across from him because like, you know, I don't know, bro. That's just like he's done a lot and just for.
- [89:27]
B
For people out there who aren't familiar with his story, can you.
- [89:29]
A
Yeah, so he was a. So he was a former Delta Force operator and for. I'm sure people are familiar that watch your show, but if they aren't, the. The Delta Force is the armies tier one special missions unit. So it is like you say, the, the very tip of the spear. Those are the guys that are, you know, it's part of joint special. Special operations command with SEAL Team 6. Those are the guys that are doing the fucking bin Laden raid. So they're not going after Achmed and flip flops with. With a, you know, ancient Russian pistol.
- [89:53]
B
Why has it Got to be Ahmed.
- [89:55]
A
Yeah, dude. Because John says Ahmed Schmuckman a lot. I think it's so funny.
- [89:58]
B
All right.
- [90:00]
A
They're going after the most hardcore guys with fortified positions up in Valleys. Really hard targets, like, really, really terrible. People like purse just don't get on their radar. So. So that's who Brent is. He was. He was a Green Beret, which is Army Special Forces for I forget how many years. And then he went to the unit for I think 10 years, and he retired in 20. 20. 2018. 2020, something like that. But yeah, that's who he is. And great dude, bro. Like, he is like, exactly. I think that's one of the biggest compliments you can pay somebody in this space is like, he's exactly who he is. Off camera, on camera. And like, if you watch Anti Hero, they do this, which I think is a cool format. They do this Thursday Night Live thing where they just drink the. Drink beers and shoot the. And like, he's that guy off camera, just super chill, really easy going, mellow. But yeah, didn't you just go shooting with him, too? Oh, God, dude, that was. Oh, that was so much fun.
- [90:58]
B
Where was that?
- [90:59]
A
Okay, so Brent is like, we've kept in touch after the podcast because, like, I genuinely like him as a friend and like, I'm sure. How do I say this? You've had a lot of people in here and if you were in their city or if they were here, you wouldn't maybe necessarily reach out to all of them to have dinner.
- [91:21]
B
Not all of them.
- [91:23]
A
And not to say that they're not fun to hang out with. And to be fair, I haven't gotten to hang out with all my guests. Like, I have like a John or a Brent or whatever. Anyway, so Brent was here and he was training the. Effectively the NYPD SWAT team team. And so they're. They're called esu, which is Emergency Services unit. And like, it's a specific team of that unit. The A team is what they're called Apprehension team. And they basically, you know, if there was tears in the nypd, they do like the most high risk warrants, right? Like the really, really hardcore drug dealers, like, serve them warrants. They do hostage rescue as part of their charter, I believe. So Brent was here teaching them CQB B, which is close quarters battle. And what Brent does is he's got a company called First Responders Coffee Company, and they donate a portion of. Not even proceeds, bro, of the money that they make. So it might not even be profit. They donate to first responder causes. And one of the things that he does is he gives this training to law enforcement for free. They don't even pay for his flights or hotels or Airbnb. And like, that's what I'm saying, man. Like, these are the kind of people. Like these guys. These are excellent people. Anyway, so he was here doing that in New York. And, and so we. We got dinner and when I met him, he. He brought two of the guys from the team with him. So it was the four of us who went to Quality meets Vermin there uptown by Central Park. Steve's definitely been there. I know he's been there.
- [92:53]
B
Yeah. I've never been.
- [92:54]
A
I'm just fucking with. It was good. Anyway, so it was the four of us. We had dinner, had a great time, had some cigars after dinner. And at one point, one of the guys was like, what the did he say? He's like. He was talking to the other guy. And I don't.
- [93:10]
B
I don't know if they'd.
- [93:10]
A
I don't know if I should say their names. Like, they. I think they're pretty great guys. I would love to.
- [93:14]
B
Yeah, stay the name off.
- [93:15]
A
That's fine. Yeah. But, yeah, so at one point, one of them was like. To the other one, he's like, oh, did you. Do you text? So and so, like, we. We need a role player for tomorrow. And like, jokingly, I just look at him, I was like, oh, you need somebody to come get shot with some sim rounds or something? And they're like, like they look at each other like, actually, yeah, if you want. And I was like, yeah, I would love that.
- [93:35]
B
Oh, so you wanted to get shoot with. Shot with sim rounds.
- [93:37]
A
Well, so what a role player is.
- [93:39]
B
Is like, Is that like a fetish?
- [93:40]
A
Yeah, no, it does hurt. I'm not into pain.
- [93:45]
B
There's a couple zip ties there if you.
- [93:46]
A
Yeah, no, I'm all set. I'll leave that to you. And what's his name? Tommy G's channel, Right.
- [93:53]
B
Yeah. We got Andy back the other day.
- [93:55]
A
I saw.
- [93:55]
B
Yeah.
- [93:57]
A
So, yeah, so basically what it was was they have a. They have a whole facility. They have like a shoot house, which for people that haven't seen one, it was the first time I was in one. It's like, it's this kind of modular setup where you can configure doors in a certain way. Like, they're like kind of like wood panels that you can slide around essentially so that you can change the layout of a room every time a team does a run. Through of it. And they got, you know, they make it look like an apartment. They'll have like a refrigerator or a couch, different furniture types. And so what the, you know what the point of it is, is for teams to do CQB in right? They'll, they'll make entry however it is. And they set up scenarios for these teams to then deal with. So there might be a hostage taker, there might be an active shooter. And that was what I did. I was an active shooter, role player and, and dude. So the first thing like there is again, I don't, I don't know. Like people, people for some reason love this. Like who's better, Delta Force or SEAL Team six? They fucking love that.
- [94:59]
B
Oh, they love those arguments. So, so funny.
- [95:01]
A
My only point is I don't know who's better, but let's say it's Delta Force for the sake of argument. Delta Force is the very best in the world at cqb. So I just being a part of a classroom training, having Brent teach these guys something was like I don't know bro. It's like. It's like having an NBA player explain to you like how to shoot a basketball. Like it's just cool. Even if you're into it or if you're not. Anyway, so I go there and my job like I said, was to be an active shooter role player. So I basically they, they give you like it was like a full face mask, like a long coat and they gave me. It was a Glock 19 and I like it was actually like a, like a real Glock but it was converted for, for Simmun. Basically. It's got like a blue slide on it. If you ever see those like trainings or like a blue bolt in an ar.
- [95:52]
B
Can we pull that up? Joe? Try to see that. How would, what would you type in for that?
- [95:56]
A
Just type in like simunition Glock or simunition rifle. I'm sure you've seen it. And it's basically like what, what a sim round is, is it's like a highspeed paint round so that you can do force on force training safely. Yeah, there you go.
- [96:10]
B
Okay, so.
- [96:12]
A
And essentially like the actual round, like if you've and you've gun shooting, you've held like a 9 millimeter round or something. It's a real round and it got like, it's got a primer where like cuz the, the gun is the exact same. So when you pull the trigger the firing pin hits the primer and then I guess there's gunpowder between that and the paint round. So it's like a real round, and it's. It feels, like, very real. So they gave me one of those. And Brent, like, set up this scenario where, like, I was a barricaded shooter in a room. And, like, I won't go into the actual details because I don't want to, like, you know, any of their, like, tactics and. And what they do, but their job was to basically, like. So he was like. He was like, okay, how do I explain this? It was like I was barricaded and there was an open door. And he's like, as soon as you start either seeing them come down the hallway or hear them get close enough, just start cracking some rounds off through the door. And then it was on. And it was their job to just unfuck the situation, and it's on.
- [97:05]
B
You got a bunch of Delta Force psychos coming at you?
- [97:08]
A
Well, no, not. Not the unit. This was the. The NYPD guy. Guys, whatever.
- [97:12]
B
But trained by the Delta Force guys.
- [97:14]
A
Yeah. And what I'll add is that, like, there's no sense in training for compliance. So my job was to be non compliant.
- [97:22]
B
Oh, that's right. So you. And you got them yelling at you. Get out of the door.
- [97:27]
A
No, no, they're very professional. They're very. And. But I said that. I said that. Brent's like, you can ad lib it, say whatever you want.
- [97:34]
B
Throw an accent on dude.
- [97:35]
A
Oh, my God. So, like, so they'll start talking to you. Obviously, they want to diffuse first. They don't want to kill an active shooter if they don't have to.
- [97:41]
B
Right? Yeah.
- [97:42]
A
So the first one, they tell you. No, no, no, they're. These guys are super professional. They're not, you know, I'm with your dog. I know, but they're. They're such awesome dudes. I can't. I can't like to have that one.
- [97:53]
B
That's my job, to be a jokester.
- [97:54]
A
Yeah, fair enough. But so, yeah, dude, they're. You know, they're the first team. They started talking to me. They're like, hey, man, like, you know, what's your name? And I was like, go yourself.
- [98:03]
B
And that was.
- [98:04]
A
That was what I said. And then. And then I, you know, I ended up playing it out. And obviously their job was to. To. To. To just shoot me. So. Yeah, and we got to do that. A couple different runs, couple different scenarios. But what's. What's crazy is actually. So this was a two day thing on the first day we were in. Okay. So that second day Was we. They had like an abandoned school. Okay. So. Which is interesting. I probably have some sort of asbestos related life shortening after that one. But so the first day was in their actual like, shoot house, those, that modular room set up. And like, we. So they start running through and Brent was like instructing and kind of watching them run through and that sort of thing as like we were just getting started. Somebody comes in and they're like, yo, everybody out. So, like the entire team leaves. And do you remember when, Gosh, I don't know if it was like a month ago. The, the shooter at.
- [98:58]
B
Oh yeah, at the, at Blackstone.
- [99:00]
A
Yes. They, they all dipped and responded to that.
- [99:04]
B
No, that was going on right then.
- [99:06]
A
Yes, so. And that's part of the deal, man. That's what they do, those guys. What I'll say is, like, from what I got from them, they are, they cover the whole city, bro, every borough. And they're spread very thin. And so that was, that was that. So they dipped on the first day and then we ended up coming back the second day.
- [99:24]
B
Today, that's real world. You get to see that happen. Think about how good those guys got to be. Like, we talk about like police forces or whatever. There's dudes, like, there's certain police forces. You're New York City, like, yeah, we see the guys directing traffic out there. There's another segment of that. Them, yeah, that better be good at what they do because that, I mean, look at all that can go wrong in that little place right there. I mean, nothing little about it. It's crazy.
- [99:48]
A
And what I'll say about these guys, man, like, I always had a respect for what the people that come on my show do, as I'm sure you do as well, but being able to see it firsthand, not firsthand, you know, but like, bro, I'm telling you, they make it feel real. They want training to feel real. They're not around, like, it's, it's for all intents and purposes, real. And so what those guys do is they don't know what's on the other side of that door. And they gotta dude, like the Uvalde one like that. Oh, God, man. That I like, I, I, dude, I cry every time I see a body cam video of, of something like that. It absolutely breaks my heart. But those guys, and you know what pisses me off too? Like when people, when people being a police officer is a fucking thankless job and people shit on them and they want to take their money away and they don't Want them to train and they want them to pay for their own ammo. Those guys fucking run into that room when they don't know what's on the other side of the wall to, to save people's lives that they don't know. And like, dude, I'm telling you, when I'm like, when, when I was in there, like, it just, it just felt real. And I also felt what it was like for them. Them. I'm like, I set this position up. Like, I, you know, I have the advantage. They're in this situation, not added. Like I, and I got, I. I shot a couple of them, you know, like in the leg or something when I, you know. But like, that's real, bro. That's it. For all intents and purposes, that's a real 9 millimeter round in their leg.
- [101:17]
B
In the real world, dude, even below what you did there, I mean, that's like a full blown simulation. But even, I mean, I know you go to gun ranges a lot. Like, even when you go to a range and you're handed a weapon of death, which is what it is, and you have to move with it a little bit to shoot a cardboard.
- [101:34]
A
Yeah.
- [101:34]
B
Or a metal plate or something, and you think of all the steps and every little, especially if you're working with, you know, like an AR15 or something like that, every little thing you have to do just to do one shot and then be able to move to the next one. I understand that these guys, they train over and over and over again, so a lot of that becomes like, breathing. But there's still so much that goes into that. And then a gravity of like, if this bullet leaves this arsenal, leaves this holster, like, some could happen. I don't know what's on the other side of that. You know, who dies, whether they deserve to or not. You know, you're going, you're responding to a situation. Your adrenaline is jacked. Like, it's impossible to simulate what you can do. Now when we've seen videos of like a cop, someone ran 100ft away, and then they just like, shoot him in the back. Okay, all right, yeah, that. I, I'm with you. That makes that. That's. You can't do that. But, like, when someone's coming at you with a weapon or something like that, and you have 0.25 seconds to respond to that, like, what the fuck do you think is going to happen? People, you think they're going to stand there and be like, oh, you look, you look safe. No, it's not. How it works. And I agree, that part of it's thankless for sure, dude.
- [102:46]
A
Like, have you ever heard an AR15 indoors with no ear protection on?
- [102:51]
B
No.
- [102:51]
A
Know it's really scary and especially if you're not expecting it. So like, again, that's going back to the school shooting problem that, you know, we seem to have in this country. Like, it is terrifying, bro, and it's very scary. Like you said, you can train for it, but until you're in that situation that you've never seen and it's a God, I had, I have all the respect in the world for those guys and what they do. And I'm, I'm so happy that there's people like Brent and people like, like that, the apprehension team that are willing to do that because we need them and nobody's ever going to tell me otherwise.
- [103:24]
B
Yeah, we also have to ask some questions about things like that though, that are beyond the actual response and what goes into that. Which. Absolutely, that's a, that's a critical part. But you know, why these things happen and people. In the past, it's been quieter. I, I'll give credit where it's due. It's been quieter on this front of the blame and the past has just been, well, it's gone guns. Okay. Yeah, I don't think a 17 year old should be getting their hands on an AR50. I could agree with that. But like, when you're going to start to try to legislate, quote, unquote, people's rights to bear arms, that runs into a lot of slippery slopes and issues. The thing that annoys me and has annoyed me for a long time about this conversation, other ones, like it is when we're not looking at things that, that are not outliers, which are. You look at a lot of these, I don't know, little, little demons who have done this, they're on SSRIs, they didn't have any friends. There were signs and you know, you gotta ask yourself some questions like what. What are we doing chemically to some kids in this country? And how is that affecting the wiring of someone whose body is still developing? Because a lot of times These shooters did 15, 16, 17, 18 years old. And I still, after all these years, Parkland was 2018. Uvalde, I want to say was 2021. Maybe I'm wrong, but somewhere in that area, you know, Columbine was 25, 30 years ago. It's like, that's still not allowed conversation. And you would think, especially in the post Covid era, Where people are thinking about some of this stuff more about like, well, how much are we putting out there that's just accepted to be put in our bodies? Are you ever surprised that we don't have that a little openly now?
- [105:10]
A
Dude, I think that's an exceptionally valid point. And like, I, I don't believe that, you know, a firearm is a tool. It's not going to kill people on its own.
- [105:20]
B
That's right.
- [105:21]
A
Unless it's a sig P320. I don't know if you've been keeping up with that drama. That was a little joke. Some people might enjoy it.
- [105:26]
B
But I have not kept up with.
- [105:27]
A
That drama apparently, you know, unfortunately I have two of them and whatever there is. There is a SIG model called. You could probably look this up, Joe. But it's the, the P320. It's like their fucking Glock 19. It's their flagship. And there is a lot coming out now about that weapon discharging or uncommanded discharge. So there's videos of it going off in the holster for police officers and like putting one in their leg. And like essentially they're a lot of the times people, they, they. Their defense in the beginning was that oh, you know, your, your keys got stuck in the trig like in your holster and like now there's a bunch coming out about like they're not able to explain it. So it's a big thing open AI Glock, dude. It's a big thing in the firearms community.
- [106:18]
B
Wow.
- [106:19]
A
Yeah. So that's scary. It's very scary, yes.
- [106:21]
B
Sig M18 pistol returned to service by Air Force Global Strike Command. Can we go down, Joe, on the article?
- [106:28]
A
A lot of police departments.
- [106:29]
B
Air Force Global Strike Command has returned the M18 modular handgun system pistols back into service. The command pause use of the sidearm to inspect them starting on July 21st following the death of an Airman at F.E. warren Air Force Base in Wyoming, which TWC was first to report. A week later, some units in Air Combat Command instituted a similar pause, though the status of that is unclear. We've reached out to ACC for comment. The M18 and the larger M17 are used by all US military services, widely replacing the Beretta M9. The weapons as well as their civilian P320 counterparts. Parts have been fraught with controversy with a drop safe issue early on in its adoption, which is now fixed, and allegations and lawsuits over the gun going off without the user pulling the trigger with their finger. That is terrifying.
- [107:15]
A
Yeah.
- [107:15]
B
So that made in China?
- [107:17]
A
No, it's made in New Hampshire, I believe.
- [107:19]
B
God damn it, New Hampshire.
- [107:21]
A
But the one thing I'll say about this one, about the airmen being killed, I think there was some foul play that came out after the fact. So I just obviously want to be specific about that one. But regardless of this one or not, there's a lot of these coming out. About 320.
- [107:35]
B
So, yeah, we started this. We've been talking about how guns are a tool and they don't.
- [107:39]
A
Yes. Right.
- [107:40]
B
Themselves. Except for this one.
- [107:42]
A
Yeah, but, yeah, man, that, that's how I think of it. But at the end of the day, you. I think that there needs to be. I don't know what the right answer is. I know people are super staunch on, like, it's in the Constitution, and I agree with that. But at the end of the day, I think, like, you know, in. It's also different state by state, so in Jersey, you have to go through a background check, and I don't see why that's an issue elsewhere. Like, why not? What's the problem with that? You know?
- [108:13]
B
Yeah, I, I think people get upset when they feel like they're legislating the background checks in a sense that they can say, like, oh, this is going to take a year and eventually it'll take two years or something like that. I get that. But I'm with, with you. I, I, I think, like, you know, there, there's, there's a constitutional right, but there's also a line. So, like, should a child predator be who's out of prison be able to buy access to a gun? No, I don't think they should. Right, agree. Yeah. So there's, there's a line somewhere, and I will admit it turns into a weird line because you start with something obvious like that, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and it works its way all the way back to something that's like, wait a minute. That. What's wrong with that person owning a gun? They were speeding. They were doing 65 and a 55, and they can't own a gun. Right. Like, it gets a little crazy. And that's where people get uptight. I understand that.
- [109:04]
A
And there's, there's truth to it, too, because, like, that's why, you know, organizations like the NRA and, you know, two A defense organizations, that's why they're so serious about not letting the other side have an inch. Because, and I, and I get it, you know, you take an inch and then you want another inch and Then another inch, and then before you know it.
- [109:21]
B
Yeah. Kind of crazy, though, that you mentioned those guys getting called out to that Blackstone shooting. That was just. I mean, do we have an image of that?
- [109:30]
A
Oh, God.
- [109:32]
B
He was walking like Omar Little in the middle of Manhattan just with the gun toad, I thought. I swear to God, he was whistling, like, super chill and then like, psycho now.
- [109:43]
A
Yeah, look at him.
- [109:44]
B
I haven't. Yeah, look at that.
- [109:45]
A
Not giving a.
- [109:46]
B
In the middle of a squ. Like, no one said anything. No one's like, hey.
- [109:50]
A
I mean, hey, I guess if you're sure of the fact that that's the last 20 minutes, like it. Let it rip, you know? But that is. That just speaks to the. The insanity of these people.
- [110:00]
B
Now, now, here. Here's the thing on this one. And I always. I want to preface this by saying we got to be so careful with running with narratives. That's what tinfoil hat Internet does way too much of. But this guy had been a football player. I can't remember if he went, like, semi pro. He didn't make it to the NFL, but this was where the NFL offices were. And he had written some sort of last letter or manifesto claiming he had CTE and was upset at the NFL and all that for doing that felt like football had done it to him. That said, he ended up. He did shoot someone, I believe, in the lobby who worked for NFL, but he went up to the block, Blackstone floors, and he gunned down an innocent woman who was doing nothing wrong. Want to be very clear on that? But this was like a. It's an interesting coincidence because this lady, I. I. Can we get her name? It's not fair for me to say that without her name because she. She was killed here. Wesley La Patna. She ran, you know, she ran the. The REITS desk, I believe, at Blackstone, the REIT Real Estate Investment Trust. Okay. And the thing about all these big companies, whether it's Blackstone, blackrock, Vanguard, whatever, many of them are buying up real estate in metro areas and suburban areas around the country with. Because they can at scale, with no intention to ever put it back on the market and basically get a monopoly through business competition of the oligarchs, which is they're competing against the biggest companies, which is each other. Other, and they get a monopoly on the houses and then get to control rent prices effectively, because if they own a certain percentage of the market, they can kind of control what they sell those things for and leave people chasing rentals instead of home ownership and continuing to Kind of inflate away, no pun intended, but pun intended, the ability for future homeownership in America. And so people, people, they get their, their heads on with this. I, I think a lot of it is just downstream, you know, quarterly report competition of people trying to chase to make sure that they don't lose their job. But an unintended consequences that it has enormous long term consequences on society. It is very, very sinister to me that that is the woman who was shot, the woman who's like in charge of that, or was one of the people in charge on one of the deaths for that at Blackstone. And now you don't really hear about that. You just kind of heard on the news, you know, legitimately like a married mother of children and whatever, and was a well liked employee at Blackstone, but they didn't really talk about what she did. And I wonder, I wonder if there's something they're not telling us there about, you know, her potentially being targeted just because of what she did.
- [112:49]
A
It's Blackstone, not Black Rock.
- [112:51]
B
Yeah, I believe it was, but we got that right?
- [112:52]
A
They're two separate companies.
- [112:53]
B
Yeah, yeah. Black Rock's a separate company. It was Blackstone.
- [112:55]
A
Okay. Yeah. I don't, I don't know too much about it.
- [112:57]
B
Yeah, I don't know. When I see stuff like that, you know, know, and then you see stories go away. This is where my, you know, my, my light goes off a little bit because it's like, you know, what, why do they, why do they want that going away? Is there, is there something, is there a little racket that they don't want to tell people about?
- [113:17]
A
I think that's. It's good to be a skeptic.
- [113:21]
B
I think so too. But there's a danger with that.
- [113:24]
A
Yes.
- [113:25]
B
Then you think everything's a conspiracy.
- [113:27]
A
That is the danger.
- [113:27]
B
And I run into that all the time with people. Bet. Oh my God, I'm just like, guys, go out, touch some grass, look at the sky, it's blue, everyone's happy. Like, I'm not saying everything's great. We got some problems and there's some real conspiracies.
- [113:42]
A
Well, but at the end of the day, it's, it's been very generous of the CIA to contribute to my success and your success, That's Danny's and you know.
- [113:51]
B
Yeah. Apparently they have their own investment arm and they, they fund all these shows which, you know, thank you, guys. I, I was unaware you were doing that. You could have got me out of my parents house a lot sooner. That would have been nice. Yeah, but, you know. Oh, whatever.
- [114:05]
A
Let's talk about this, because I asked John about this because Kiriaku. Yes. I had a feeling that people. People trust what he's. As far as ex CIA officers go, people trust him, I think, because he hates them. Yeah, right. Whatever the case is. But. Okay. So did you happen to see Sean Ryan on of top Tucker Carlson?
- [114:26]
B
I know he went on it. I saw clipped. I. I didn't.
- [114:29]
A
He talked about. Long story short, he talked about, like the CIA infiltrating podcasts. And the example that he used was Sean had this guy on who Blairum Scoro is his name, and he was a CIA and FBA agent. That is an asset, not an officer.
- [114:49]
B
This is the guy. He asked on camera. I saw this clip. He asked the dude on camera, what if the CIA just sent you here to see this or something?
- [114:57]
A
Yeah, dude, but this is. This was. I'm interested to talk to you about this because again, for people that didn't see it, the. The. The point that Sean made was let's say this guy, Blairum Squirrel, like, his. His story is like, let's say it's Al Qaeda and it's in the Middle East. At one point in the interview, he mentions to Sean something about Russia and something alarming about Russia that they were trying to, like, smuggle some nuclear material somewhere or proliferate something. Something. Something weird. And then Sean, like, he asked the guy on the show, he's like, when's the last time you had contact with the agency? Which is a good question. Yeah, exactly. Yes. And his story was that he got burned by the agency. And Sean was like, well, I'll tell you what I'm thinking. That seemed a little out of place. So if the agency, for example, knew that you were coming on this podcast, the Sean Ryan shows got quite a bit of read. And they said to you, hey, say whatever you want, but just work in this one thing. And in this case, it didn't come up organically, so he just hail married it and threw it in there. And, dude, that got the wheels turning in my head. Like, it's one thing to have somebody that, you know, people speculate is like just running the CIA narrative to the ground. But then there's another thing. It's another thing to have a person that. That it's just one sentence, one thing, which is crazy that I had never thought about that until he said that. And I asked John about it and. But what do you think about that?
- [116:22]
B
What did John say about it?
- [116:23]
A
He Said I could totally see it. You know, you got, like, mockingbird and CIA and media and why wouldn't they?
- [116:29]
B
So I got so many thoughts on this, man. And Sean's absolutely right. It could just be one sentence or, like, one little side thing. Once they. It's almost like they lull you to sleep. Lull you to sleep and say you.
- [116:42]
A
Yeah.
- [116:42]
B
By the way, nuclear bombs, Russia. Like, oh, keywords hit. You know, and it could be that simple just because it's something memorable. And people are playing like, yo, remember that crazy with the Russian accent who was saying they were moving nukes on Sean's podcast? Holy. And Sean. We love Sean, so that must be true. It can happen. But I always look at it this way, like, when people flip out about, like, Bustamante being on or something like that. It's funny because I'm like, first of all, y' all are going to hold them in church. Check in the comments section. Secondly, you know who he is. It's on his resume. And I tell him to his face every time. I don't think you ever left, and I think most of you people haven't left, and everyone out there thinks the same thing. So it's open. It's right in front of you. Where I get way more concerned is exactly what you're talking about. When it's someone who comes in here and that's not on their resume, could be someone in here for something. Not even. Even geopolitical. Nothing to do with it. And I'm not going to comment on all this because I don't. I got to be really careful speculating on things where I don't have pure proof. But can I tell you that there have been a few times where my alarm bell goes off after the fact? Yes. And I know one of them I'm right about, and I Wish I could 100% prove it. I can't. But there. There is one that I am. Oh, I know I'm right about. And it's like, well, what? And. And I go through the table. I'm like, what? What did they say? That could have been something. And I don't. That's the worst part.
- [118:11]
A
I don't.
- [118:12]
B
I don't know.
- [118:13]
A
Can you give any context on camera? Are we gonna have to talk about this off camera?
- [118:16]
B
No, I. I haven't even given context to people about it off camera. I've kept this with. With me and myself because it's a big claim. It's. It's. It's. It's a big claim, but. And And I'm not even saying that's like CIA or something. What, what I understand about the world that I've learned talking with a lot of different people, is that the world. To say the world is run by intelligence agencies is a lazy statement because it's actually deeper than that. It's not necessarily, in my opinion, there's forces we can't see, we can talk about that too. But the forces you can see, agency, let's focus on the intelligence agencies. It's not so much that it's run by them, it's run by the consequences that they view, as Bustamante would say, the casualties in the real world of the actions that they take against each other covertly. And that includes people who diplomatically are friends below the surface. These guys can tell you all they're want. All they want. Yes, the five eyes get along more than others. Yes, they share until no one's full friends. Do you over your friends once in a while because you're afraid they're going to do something to you. No, you don't, right? If you do, that's not a healthy friendship. Got news for you. They're all like that. And I. It's human nature. So we are living in a world that is just the result of the casualties that occur in these underground things that have nothing to do with who anyone votes for, by the way. It's beyond that, it's past that. And so yeah, why wouldn't that affect podcasts? How many podcasts has Joe Rogan done, including the mma show? Almost 3000. Probably like 27, 2800, something like that. I, I remember he went on with on Lex Friedman show a few years ago and he talked about it. He thinks about it too. He's like fucking talk to four people a week. One guy does this, another guy does that, another girl does. I don't know who the fuck all these people are, nor would I expect him to, by the way away. We've seen them do it in traditional media forever and they're even more open about it there. So, you know, to some extent my opinion at this point, cynical as it may be, is that anyone in this space, including people that don't even cover these types of events and there's some sort of, you know, 4D chess second layer to whatever it is that their audience is who listens to them, could be, let's name a random one, like a Jay Shetty is like out there doing mental health stuff, you think? Totally great, right? Jay Shetty doesn't know it's not his fault he doesn't know every fucking guy that comes on there and what narrative someone might be trying to push just on the masses and where that comes from. Every show with any attention, at any level, independent, mainstream, is susceptible to being used as a useful idiot. And unknowingly, hopefully unknowingly, has been in the past, myself included.
- [121:04]
A
Hey, man. And that's why I asked you about it because like, you and I, we don't have a fucking team of producers to, to vet people and validate. So I think. What'? Again, I said this in my podcast with John too, so sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I think the important point is the onus is on the individual. Right? So it's for you to decide. Like, you, you may have just heard a CIA whatever narrative, but that's for you to decide, man. And I think there's, there's still, at the same time, there's a line where. A line where you and I decide where the line is for who we platform in the first place. But, but parallel to that line, people have to take everything everyone says with a grain of salt. Yeah, but I think, dude, something that's so interesting to me, like, going back to your point about the unseen forces, like, fuck, man, we are so divided in this country and people are up in arms against each other about this narrative versus this one. And I just, like, I try. It's. I, I feel dirty when I get involved with it, so I try to keep it. I, first of all, I keep it entirely out of my show. I don't want to talk about it. I'm not interested in it. I don't like it at all. I don't talk about my friends, whatever. But what I think about is that we got these people fighting over these narratives, but you're. We're not even privy to what's going on behind the scenes.
- [122:25]
B
Right.
- [122:25]
A
Like, I just talked to. Sorry, I keep bringing up John. It just happened.
- [122:28]
B
Yeah, yeah, great guy to bring up.
- [122:31]
A
Exactly. But for example, you know, know, Netanyahu has asked every president to bomb Iran and Trump is the first one to do it. And so what people think is like, this is what it is at face value. But I would like to think there is some information behind a classification that you and I don't know about. And there's some reason behind this decision. That's again, that I'm not giving my opinion on that example. That's just an example. Or, you know, because now we look back at it and Monday morning quarterback it and Say, oh, well, you know, we, we armed the Mujahideen in the 80s and now look what the fuck you did. But at the time, I'd like to believe it's, you know, naive, maybe I'll just call it out, but that they were acting on what information was available to them in, in that sort of manner. But I don't know, dude, I think about that a lot. And just the fact that, you know, it's all, it's all a big fucking show and we don't, we don't see what's behind the curtain. And that, to answer your question, is what I love about having Delta Force operators and CIA officers, like, that's the ground truth. Those are the guys that the people in fucking air conditioned offices in D.C. sent to do those things as best.
- [123:45]
B
As they can see it, where they weren't compartmentalized.
- [123:48]
A
But I'll take it from them over some politician on CNN or fox.
- [123:53]
B
Absolutely. And I can appreciate it a lot more from them too, because they actually had to do the hard things. Yes, you know, I know. I think it's a great point. I, I think to answer your question with a hypothesis, the, the, the reason Netanyahu might have been successful at getting Trump to bomb Iran is sitting on East 71st Street. And, you know, that's just what it is there, There are things that seem.
- [124:21]
A
By the way, is that Epstein's penthouse? Yeah, or townhouse, rather. Sorry to interrupt you, but I didn't, I wasn't sure.
- [124:27]
B
90 71st Street.
- [124:29]
A
Interesting.
- [124:29]
B
And it's like we now have entered a time period where we still don't know shit, right? But with the Internet, we know the toilet, you know, we don't see all the piping, but we can see the water in the toilet for the first time and actually aim and shoot, Right. No pun intended. But, you know, because of that, now when there's, when there are certain things that are so obvious in front of people that then get shoved under the rug, forget the fact that it's offensive to civilians like you and me. Imagine how offensive. I mean, you can see it, how offensive that is to some of the guys that we talk to and, and the guys who have lived it, including stuff that they're not comfortable even talking about on camera because it pisses them off so much. It's like, you know, Rogan used to have a great line that I just think was perfect, where he was like, all these people who come, come up to see the President on day one in office, they were there before he got there. They're going to be there after, after he leaves. And even all those people are still compartmentalized in some way on a need to know in the worlds that they know. So when you put all those compartmentalizations together, no one really knows but the machine, the blob, if you will. That's like Mike Benz's line. The blob knows, the octopus knows because all the tentacles go somewhere. And then maybe there are people at the top of that tentacle who, who knows more, that can know more of those buckets, if that makes sense to people out there. But it, it gets really tough when you start to look at a guy like Trump if, if you ignore the politics, right, and just look at it on the surface. This is a guy who's supposed to be coming in as the political outsider. When you then see him come in, albeit for the second time, and do things that look like it's just a part of the same little inside club, and you ain't in. In it. No matter where you stand, left or right, there's something in that that's demoralizing. I've had a lot of conversations with liberals and conservatives recently, so that ranges on the spectrum from people who really don't like him to people who liked him. I'll say a lot. A lot of people I'm talking to on the right side are like, I don't know about this guy now. And I get that, but it's like the, the common refrain is like, well, at least we could have. Even from the left. Well, at least he could try to do this, and now he's not doing that. It's. It's demoralizing because it's like, does your vote even mean anything? You know, I, I won't speak for you, but especially off camera, some of these people I've spoken with, they think it's like, funny. They're like, yeah, right. Oh, yeah, your vote. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [127:13]
A
Making a difference.
- [127:14]
B
Yeah. Making a real difference in the world. They. They're like, it'll move at 5% this way or 5% that way. It's a cultural shift. That's why every presidency goes Republican, Democrat, Republican, Democrat. But it's like the real decisions are being made by something above that. And, and it's. I don't think you have to be a conspiracy brain to think like that now.
- [127:33]
A
Yeah. I mean, again, man, you don't have to have the answers, but it's good to speculate. It's good to just be aware that what you're seeing may not be the full picture, just that. Just having that lens in general. You don't have to, you know, overanalyze and dissect everything, but just to take everything with a grain of salt and.
- [127:50]
B
Seriously, you had in that guy, Rick Spence, right?
- [127:54]
A
Yeah.
- [127:54]
B
And he's. He's like a cult expert and, and that stuff. What did he, like, who did he think, quote, unquote, runs the world? Hypothesize. And how did he look at it? He.
- [128:06]
A
So he didn't have a definitive answer. But what I, what I found interesting about Rick is just the way that he thinks about things.
- [128:14]
B
Things.
- [128:16]
A
And I think that would be the thing for people to pay attention to. But, like, the idea was that essentially, again, going back to this concept of, of not taking something at face value, it's just about thinking strategically and thinking about what the range of possibilities may be. Right. And there's a, There's a percentage base assigned to all of those ranges. And, and, you know, is it some cabal of baby eaters that convene once a year and. And drink blood? Like, sure, that's an option. It might be a 1% option. You know what I mean? Like, so what's more likely is. Is something else, maybe. But his point was just don't rule. Don't rule anything out, but don't get attached to something just because you think it's interesting.
- [129:05]
B
That's the problem. That's a great point he makes that people don't want to hear. Hear that. But people want the most ridiculous, sinister outcome to be the outcome because it makes their life more interesting. And it's easy for any of us, myself included, to fall into that trap, but you can't do that. You have to be able to have honest conversations about things. But the Internet incentivizes. We are all team whatever, or we.
- [129:29]
A
Are all team whatever.
- [129:30]
B
And you're either on the team with every thing or you're not, and you're not going to be in the algorithm. And I don't, I don't know how you think about it, but, like, I'm uninterested in that, man. I have a line on this show in the sense that when I bring people on, at least going into it, sometimes afterwards, you. You're like, okay, that was a little fart. And I thought, but when I, when I'm looking at bringing people on, I bring people on from across the spectrum, across all different topics. Sometimes we're not even talking any politics or whatever with some of these people and thinking of in here, but it's like, in general, what's their worldview? There's a line for me though, right? If 0 is farthest left and 100 is farthest right, I'm not really interested in going past 20 or 80 to either opposite direction because I can predict every thing the person's gonna say. They're not gonna even listen to probably any counterpoints I might have, not even to rebut them, but to say, have you thought about it this way or have you considered this perspective? And like, you know, you talk with people for a long time. Speaking for myself, it's not interesting talking with someone for three hours who again, you can predict everything they say and you're not going to get anywhere with them and you're not going to learn anything new.
- [130:47]
A
Yeah, and I, Dude, I, I give you credit for doing what you do because it's. I, man, I, yeah, I respect your ability to talk about these things, especially geopolitically with people and like be able to stand your ground. And I think again, for people that, you know, that's that me, I don't know how much of that is like intrinsic to you. Like let's call a talent versus just being well versed on something and like doing a lot of front end research. And I would say like again, going back to, to that talent piece, the, the more, the more you verse yourself in something, the less you have to rely on, on talent to get you there. Sorry, what was the original point that you made up or. Because I wanted to say something about that.
- [131:26]
B
What I'm saying is how you, how you look at the spectrum of who you're talking to, like speaking to the extremes. How interesting is that?
- [131:34]
A
Well, dude, that's, and that's one of the big things I think is a problem that feeds into this division is like you and I, there was a time where if you and I thought differently, we could just sit down and have a conversation about it and be friends afterwards. And I don't really fucking care what you think. Like, it's, it's not relevant to our friendship, let's, so to speak, like in, in people's lives. But now, like, I feel like what I see with this stuff and like the infighting and division is that people, when they have a conversation, it's. Let me, let me give you an example. Like, let's say, I don't know, let's say you're on the right and I'm on the left and you and I are having a conversation. And I, I like if Trump does something that's great. Trump cures cancer. I, on the left, don't want to say that Trump did something good objectively, because it feels like I'm ceding ground to you. You. And it's all this, all the time. And that's what I feel with people, man. And I'm like, if that's. If that's what it's gotten to, then how the. Are we ever going to get to the middle anymore? How, like, where is the truth gonna lie then on that spectrum? And how can we even tell where it is?
- [132:47]
B
I don't know is the answer to that question from my end. But also what I do feel confident is that if you're looking at power structures, like the elites, just put them all in one bucket, regardless of who that is, a divided society is a compliant society, because you. You distract them with these shiny little objects over here to fight over. Everyone gets all pissed off. That's where social media runs to. The algorithms push it. They get mad at each other. There's infighting, there's whatever. And then there's some political repercussions. But the real things are what happen behind closed doors, where decisions are made, made often about faraway places that impact the world economically, socially, politically, and geopolitically. You know, and. And I think that if you look throughout, just even American history, post Industrial Revolution, even, that's probably a pretty fair takeaway. Look at the. Look at the British Empire, pretty fair takeaway. You know, that's. That's. That's what these guys do. And, you know, one of the things, I'm sure you have these moments in your podcasts, these little things sometimes, maybe that fans listening don't notice like you do, because they're not in there, but these little things where someone says something and the context in which they're saying it and the way in which they say it and the moment in which they say it, while you're sitting there with them, you're like, whoa. Like, holy. That's a good point. One of them for me was when Bustamante in episode 107 with me was. I think this was like an hour, 40 minutes in or something like that. He was like, we need an enemy. We need an enemy that we can look at and say, that's the enemy that we can all coalesce around. So that. That's where our focus goes. And the saddest part about that statement is that, historically speaking, he's not wrong. And what he was trying to say is, you want to solve some of the division Problems in this country, country have a common thing to fear. And right now the common thing that we fear is each other. We need to point that outward which is sinister as, and has massive implications towards human life on this planet. So I don't support that. But psychologically I have to look at this objectively and say like, is he wrong? I don't know.
- [135:08]
A
I don't think so.
- [135:09]
B
Right. Do you, do you think that exists right now like some sort of enemy that everyone can coalesce around and look at that you think is going to get worse? I don't know.
- [135:29]
A
Nothing stands out. I mean, dude, we're, I think that we're just against each other. And the, the enemy is whatever flavor of the week it is. The, the enemy is whatever topic that, that, that has been chosen for us to beat each other up over.
- [135:44]
B
Yeah.
- [135:44]
A
Why does something stand out to you that, that I'm missing? Because I might very well be.
- [135:48]
B
No, I, I, I don't, I don't disagree with you. I think what they want it to be now is China and that's understandable. The size of their gdp, some of the soft power they're doing around the world certainly. And like, you know, it's a, it's run by the ccp, which it's, politically, we can complain all we want about what we got here, it's way better than the that. So some of that would make sense on paper, but it's like also, you know, no one's throwing a bomb at us, no one's done anything like that. And they want people to, they, whoever they are, they want people to get so into fighting against an ideology like that. And I don't think, I, I think the louder noise of social media and things that are happening here is drowning that out. And so yeah, we're divided, so we're compliant in a lot of ways. But it's a pain in the ass, I'm sure, for the elites because now all these idiots got a goddamn voice on the Internet, you know, I'm sure it drives them nuts when they see like the biggest show in the world is Joe Rogan who's like a comedian, cage fighting analyst who talks with whoever he wants and God bless him for doing it, you know.
- [136:59]
A
Crazy, man. So crazy. Yeah, I, I love that about Joe, the fact that I'll just have anybody on. But yeah, I mean, to your point about China, bro, like that's a good example because there's a lot of different people that, I'll tell you a lot of different things about China there's one school of thought, and you'll hear people talk to us talk about this on podcasts, that they are fucking public enemy number one, the most formidable threat that we have. Like, it'll come to a ground war with them and we're already in an economic war with them. And how much some of that may be true. And then there's other people that are like, well, you know, yeah, like they're China's serious, but maybe not. I wouldn't go that far with it. So that's just a perfect example of something that some of it may be narrative based. You know, I'm sure the Lockheed Martins and the Raytheons of the world would love for people to buy into the fact that China can build ships at whatever 20 times the rate that we can. And you know, that they had. They've gone hypersonic and all this stuff. I mean, I'm sure there's, there's always narratives behind certain things. And that's again, bro, that's just the tough part with me. Like, we just talk to people and listen to what they have to say. But where the ground truth is, I don't fucking know. I don't have a security clearance. Parents, so.
- [138:07]
B
Right, right. You do the best with the information you have and the person sitting in front of you. And that's, that's the tough part of, of the job. But, you know, we. You're focused. In this case, it would be on, on a country that's halfway around the world with all different alliances and influences from us and everything. But we're apparently even struggling with that on the home front because China is one of many places that's using like the cartel to run like a backwards war against us through our own border that we up. Like, we can't even get our shit right at home. And we're worried about how we're going to look internationally against other places. I'm not undercutting our military and their power and all that. I hope we don't got to use it, but it's like, man, sometimes it feels a little ass backwards. You had, you had a. What's her name? Mariana Van Zeller. Oh, I mean, she's covered all the way that stuff.
- [138:59]
A
Dude. She is a G, bro. I had so much fun on that podcast. And, and again, I, I wasn't like, prior to having her on. And again, apparently this is extremely common knowledge and I'm an idiot, but I wasn't aware of just the scope or the scale rather, of cartel operations, especially inside the United States. And she kind of got me up to speed on that because in their. Their new season that just came out, she. She did an episode on cartels embedded within.
- [139:25]
B
What's the name of that channel again?
- [139:26]
A
Trafficked. Mariana Ventler. It's on Hulu and National Geographic. National Geographic. But, yeah, bro, I had. I. I had no idea because, like, that, again, that was the first time that I actually dove into the cartels on my show. And I just. I didn't know how. How deep those roots were.
- [139:44]
B
What did she find? Like, what was. What was the context there?
- [139:48]
A
So. Dude. And again, like, the stuff that blew my mind. Mind. People that love the cartels and they're all in on this, like, that's probably common knowledge to them, but just how common it was to just grease the palms of border agents, the fact that they're paying them all off and slipping things right through the border. She had one. She talked to this drug mule who smuggled, like, a massive amount of fentanyl over the Mexican border into California in some compartment in her car. And she. So they watched the car go through the border, and the drugs weren't found. We can. Again, she was like. Because I asked her, too. I was like, were you conflicted, like, letting those. Not that, you know, what are you gonna do? We talk about that. But the point that I was gonna make was that she watches it come in, and then on the other side of the border in America, she, you know, goes up to the car and interviews her. Obviously, her face is blurred out and everything, and her voice is distorted, but she was like, you know, weren't you concerned? Weren't you worried? Like, that's terrifying. You're gonna go to prison forever. And she's like, oh, no. That's why I come at this time a day, because, like, I know this guy, and, you know, he works.
- [140:51]
B
I got a guy.
- [140:52]
A
Yeah, he works for us.
- [140:53]
B
God.
- [140:54]
A
Like, that. She talked about just how, like, they. They set up networks inside the US So, again, take what I say with a grain of salt. This is secondhand. I'm not an expert on this, but just how they're. How they bring in drugs, like all kinds of crazy, man. And I know you've had. You've had a couple people on here. I know, obviously, John Norris, and I just thought of him because of the. The China Connection action. But you've had Ed Calderon in here, right? And then who's Katarina Schultz? Yeah, but there's another. Another man. I can't remember.
- [141:30]
B
Ken McGee, who's fighting the Colombian Cartels?
- [141:33]
A
I don't know.
- [141:34]
B
Norris was 265, Schultz was 294 and 313. And then I had in Johnny Mitchell for 314. Ed Calderon was 292 and 293. Matthew Hedger was 290 and 275. He was undercover with the car cartels.
- [141:50]
A
Yeah, what I saw, I saw clips from that and watched. I know you had him twice, but he was like a knock or something embedded with cartels. What is his story, bro? Whoa.
- [142:03]
B
Yeah, return my text Matt, saying this. I haven't talked to you in a while pal. But he was a knock as you said, non official cover. Which is the deepest form of spy that there is. You want to talk like CIA is already supposedly case officers deniable. This is completely off books deniable. It's straigh of a movie script. He. The only reason he is not in anymore in that capacity is because his identity was leaked. There was a leak at CIA? Jesus. I. He didn't confirm who it was. It sounds like it was Chinese intelligence got some sort of leak. I can't confirm that, but that's what I implied or inferred from what he was saying. And there were five different. Five or six different knocks whose identities were uncovered and their names were published on the dark web. So the chances to anyone listening even saw this or slim, but that's still something public. They were published by that foreign intelligence agency which is probably China and they all had to be pulled from the field. So when you talk about guys who actually like aren't doing their job at CIA anymore, like he actually can't. Like he. And there's a lot of countries he can't go to. But his job was to be a professional criminal. They trained him to be a money laundering expert in particularly and he had to play the role of a guy who was working, working at you know, a regular corporation who had this skill and at first infiltrated biker gangs and eventually through those connections just happened to be able to infiltrate the cartels. And the idea was that it's not like to infiltrate it to then use those organizations to actually commit the crimes though he was doing money laundering for them and other things. So it's like they are doing crimes but it was more so like take the biker gang example. They're an international organization. It was a top four gang. You can't say which but you can do the number math right? International organization. So if he's a known biker gang guy, like known to different FBI's around the world. If you will. Let's say he and his buddies take a trip to Hungary. He gets into the country. What are the. What are the. What's the intelligence saying there? They're like, oh, yeah, these are biker gang guys. He's identified as a biker gang guy. So when he goes back to his hotel, changes his identity for a second and goes and does some nuclear football. Football meet up with some Russian arms dealer, that has nothing to do with the biker gang. He's not even being trailed to be looked at for that because he's not suspected. It's like double level spying so that you can do all these horrible things for 99.9% of the time. And then that 0.1% of the time, it gives you a cover as a. As a criminal to step out the back door for a minute and go do real CIA. So this is what he would do. And he ended up in the cartels. And this was the craziest thing, Dalton. This is like when it comes full circle and you're like, he's sitting here on March 5th. And I had Shawnee in here the second time with him. Who's. She was a DIA lady. And he tells the story. The second podcast we did, number 290, he tells the story about how he personally flipped a top 10 guy at a top 10 bank, normal dude, to launder money for the cartels. And he runs America American Bank. Not gonna say.
- [145:16]
A
Did he say no?
- [145:16]
B
Okay, but like, top 10 bank, top 10 guy, normal guy, didn't have blackmail on him, just got him to flip. Oh, yeah, right. And then they used this because that was his job to do for the cartels, and he was really good at it. And he goes through this whole thing a week later to the day. I have Ed Calderon sitting there, and Ed Calderon at one point's like, so, I mean, are we not going to talk about the CIA and how.
- [145:40]
A
Come on, Julian.
- [145:42]
B
How they. And how they're flipping. How they're flipping big bankers at top 10 banks and top 10 guys. Oh, yeah, they're doing that. I'm like, no. I'm like, hold on, let me check these goosebumps. Funny you say that, Ed. I had the guy who actually is responsible for doing that sitting in that chair a week ago. And Ed didn't even flinch. He's like, well, there you go. There's your proof. But it's like, this world is so complicated now. That's one where we're actually inside it and doing things, and yet in the same world where we can pull off that kind of stuff. Like our people or whatever, you know, Mariana's uncovering all the shit that we. We can't even keep our own leaks together. Like B, on a basic level, like a basic mules. Coming across the border with fentanyl to kill our kids bothers me so much. It's like there's chosen places for competency. Competency. And there's chosen designated places where we just decide we don't need it. And who ends up paying the price is. Is the citizens of the country. God, bro.
- [146:43]
A
I mean, first of all, I think that she says this too, but the unfortunate part of it is that none of this, you know, fentanyl being smuggled over the border would be relevant if there wasn't a demand here for it. Yeah, like we, we love it. We love it. We want more of it. We want to kill ourselves with it. And like, I understand addiction as a disease. I'm not disparaging that. I'm not. That's not my point. But my point is, I think need to, we need to correct that first. Because, yeah, we can talk about, we can talk about the, the nature of, of these cartel members and, and the people that bring drugs in, but again, it's, it's. It's all basic supply and demand, bro. And like, that's what I asked her too. I was like, how the hell do they turn these people? How does, how does somebody like Matthew Hedger turn a banker and money, right? And like, and that's again, that's, that's obvious to a lot of people, but it's life changing money. Like, how, how is the average person going to say no to that? If you're a border agent and you make, I don't know what the hell they make, and the cartel offers to, you know, 5, 10x that just to turn your head for 30 seconds, people are going to take that deal. But, but yeah, bro, I mean, that is something thing. That's another thing that I find really interesting about this intelligence and spook world is like the people that come on our show, they're, They're. Is that a bad one?
- [148:12]
B
Unfortunately, really the term. I have an idiot who probably has no concept. I'm not even gonna say it, but okay, yes.
- [148:20]
A
Yeah. Something world, meaning this intelligence world.
- [148:23]
B
I can't. It's such a fun word to say in that context. But yeah, I. You know how it goes.
- [148:29]
A
Yes, I do. It's so stupid in this world, these things like the people that come on our show and they're, they're telling stories from operations that have been declassified and that sort of thing. But the interesting thing to me is, like, the layers.
- [148:42]
B
Yeah.
- [148:42]
A
Like cover. Cover as a diplomat, you know, working in an embassy in Iran and then being an operations officer and recruiting people at cocktail parties on the side of some is one thing. Cover as a criminal and a biker gang is a different one. There's. There's layers to uncover. I find that fascinating.
- [149:03]
B
You also have to psychologically find the people who fit the profiles to be able to do this.
- [149:07]
A
Yes, you do.
- [149:08]
B
And that's always. I mean, you've seen. You've seen why John could have been great at what he did.
- [149:12]
A
Oh, my God.
- [149:13]
B
So much psychologically going on there. That was the thing with Matthew. He's like, you know, borderline, like, on the spectrum, low key dude. And there was a moment in 275, the first time he was in here, where I said, what would you talk? Like, when you were this guy? He was this guy for, like, 10, 15 years. And, like, you could see him almost get, like, internal anxiety that now he was like, there's cameras and he's going to do it. And it took, like, a second. And it wasn't this, like, it wasn't like watching an Australian Heath Ledger turn into the Joker speaking, you know, American English, like. Like a crazy clown. Right, right. Which is an incredible acting performance. This was way more subtle. He was like. He would speak a little faster. I was like, I. I'm like, all right, let's role play a little bit. We start. And then he, like, you could see him be like, oh, we're doing this. And literally, like, there's this thing where it wasn't like this.
- [150:11]
A
Right.
- [150:11]
B
But it was like, it's too obvious. It was like, wow, did I just unscrew that? It's crazy. It was like, lean forward, forward. Like, you mean to tell. And it was just like, clip. And his soul just left his body, and he was that dude again. And I'm like, this is. This is different than winning an Oscar, you know? You know the cameras are going to stop with that. When you're in a character like this for that many years, you have no idea when those cameras are going to stop. And you have to assume they know there's no such thing as takes. You know what I mean? So crazy. You talk about the layers with these people. It's crazy to think about just how high the stakes are you. You had on the dude. Scott Payne, too?
- [150:53]
A
Yeah. Oh.
- [150:54]
B
Like, how many places was he undercover?
- [150:58]
A
Well, he in. He infiltrated the Outlaws, biker gang. He infiltrated this. This group called the base, which is a. Al Qaeda.
- [151:09]
B
That's what that means.
- [151:09]
A
I know, I know. And I think. I don't remember. I. He mentioned, mentioned it in. That's the translation from Arabic to English is the base. But I don't know if they knew that. And that's why they claim to. Not because they also claim to not be like a terrorist organization, but this group called the base, which they are essentially a neo Nazi group. But what they're labeled as is accelerationists.
- [151:32]
B
Are you familiar with this term, accelerationists?
- [151:35]
A
So what they believe is that society as we know it in America is going to collapse. Collapse. And what they want to do is accelerate that collapse of society. That way when it all breaks down, they can set up a white ethno state. Oh, yes, good guys, that sounds.
- [151:52]
B
Wow.
- [151:53]
A
And again, going back to your original point, bro, a lot of these, I say guys, they were kids. They. One of them was like 18 years old then they were all. The oldest of them, I want to say was like, I think the leader was in his mid-30s, but the majority of them, let's say, were like early 20s. And that's something Scott said. He's like, if you're a parent and you see your kid, I don't want to say stockpile. I stockpile ammo because I shoot a lot. It's something I enjoy, but so it's.
- [152:20]
B
Okay when you do it.
- [152:21]
A
But this I don't buy. I don't buy plate carriers and put racist patches on them and fucking by night vision goggles and like that sort of thing. And again, I'll caveat that by saying, not that there's anything wrong with owning a plate carrier if you're a civilian, but I'm not going to be the guy to take pictures of myself on a range wearing one. That sort of thing. Yes. Anyway, these kids, their. Their idea was that, you know, that this is what they were going to do. They're going to set up this white ethno state. It wasn't very well planned or executed. They didn't have a ton of infrastructure for it. But what he ended up getting them on is they had, they had planned the murder of this antifa couple. They were journalists, I believe. And dude, the scary thing is like the, the level of detail that they planned for this, for this murder, like down to the fact that they bought. Do you know what I like? You know, so for people unfamiliar, like when you shoot any, any sort of pistol or rifle, there is like the, The Full bullet that you see the very end of it is the projectile. And the brass is like what holds the gunpowder and what the primer hits, that's ejected from the gun. So if you're seeing people shooting and there's flying out, that is the brass.
- [153:31]
B
Brass, Right.
- [153:32]
A
So what they did is they bought brass catcher bags. So what. What it is, it's a bag that attaches to where, like, no casings. Exactly. So you don't have to worry about picking them up. They also brought revolvers because when you. When you pull the trigger on a revolver, there's no casings ejected. It just spilling. The cylinder just keeps spinning.
- [153:49]
B
Is there any residue that can come from that, though?
- [153:51]
A
I don't know that. I'm sure. I'm sure.
- [153:53]
B
Okay.
- [153:54]
A
I don't know what the deal with that is, because that's been around for a while, that idea.
- [153:57]
B
Ballistics.
- [153:58]
A
I'm not either. Especially the kind of. That's left. And I'm sure these days I would like to think that people can really, like, figure these things out.
- [154:06]
B
Right.
- [154:06]
A
Anyway, they did that. They. They scrubbed themselves at a motel room to make sure that they didn't drop any skin flakes at the crime scene. They ditched all their electronics at a campsite. They did all this, bro. And then to the point where he. Even Scott talks about.
- [154:24]
B
About this.
- [154:25]
A
The one of the kids says to Scott, he says. He's like, I heard that. Essentially, like your. Your bowels, I guess, give out when you kill someone for the first time. This is what he read. So they all wanted to wear diapers. And Scott just, like, implied that he had already done that. And he's like, I think I'm good, bro.
- [154:46]
B
Who. So you keep saying kids, first of all, do you have, like, an exact age range?
- [154:50]
A
You can look them up. Just look up the base accelerationist group. But again, early 20s. One of them was really young. And. And I. I keep talking about it as if they did these things. They plan to do those things. And. And the. The team apprehended them before they actually went there.
- [155:04]
B
Approximately how old was Scott at the time? He was infiltrating.
- [155:08]
A
He was a grown man. So.
- [155:09]
B
So what was his cover with them if he was a lot older?
- [155:13]
A
I don't. So it wasn't a cover because they recruit on these.
- [155:16]
B
Like, now we're on a watch list after typing that in.
- [155:20]
A
No. Yeah, you and me both, then.
- [155:21]
B
Sorry, fellas.
- [155:22]
A
Well, if you listen for some context.
- [155:24]
B
Yeah. Whoever's watching, we're clean. Yeah, let's not put that on the screen. We're going to.
- [155:32]
A
Yeah, yeah, dude. What? Wild, wild stuff. But yeah, so they. They recruited on these, like, telegram apps and stuff, and it was basically like, if you're racist enough, then you can come join us. And they did like, a full interview page panel. And, like, Scott told stories about, like, one guy they rejected because he had dated a girl that was like, Hispanic or something like that. Or like, he's like, I think I might have, like, some Puerto Rican in my. In my blood. And just hear him behind, like, the. The interview panel. I think that might be a problem. Seriously, dude. But, like, bizarre. And they, like. He says they like bastardized paganism. So one thing he did with them is they. They stole a goat from a neighboring farm, slit its throat, drank its blood, and took acid as a of the, like, because it's in paganism, I guess they were like, sacrificing this goat to Odin.
- [156:32]
B
How do you. How does. He seems like the coolest.
- [156:35]
A
Oh, my God, dude.
- [156:36]
B
How does he. How do you keep your way. It's. I mean, you're around some stone cold killers morons, and you know what I mean? Yeah. Kill. No, no, no, no, no. Yes. Both. But there, it's like a South park episode. Sometimes we're like, yeah, they're taking all our jobs. We're going to go kill. Like, how do you not just be like, oh, my God, dude.
- [156:57]
A
And that's what I said, and that's what I asked him. I was like, how? How? Because they sit around a campfire and they talk about how bad every other race is. So I was like, okay, like, if you have to get into this character, how much do you lean into it? And what I asked him, I was like, okay, you guys are sitting around a campfire. Like, do you just wait for them to say, f white people? I'll say. And you just like, yeah, F1. Or do you initiate and do you start the thread? And that's something that he said too. He's like, you have to know when you're like, red pill moment was so for him. Meaning, like, I get. I don't know what this fucking red pill thing means. I think that means, like, when your mind changes on. On something. Because the red pill is like a space. Whatever. Yeah. But him, it was a real thing because he. His mother got, like, grabbed or groped by someone at a gas station when Scott was a little kid. And I believe it was like a black man. So he used that story and they bought it.
- [157:54]
B
Like, method acted it, too.
- [157:55]
A
Yeah. And it was Real. And I think you want as much of it to be real.
- [157:59]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [158:01]
A
Wow.
- [158:02]
B
How long was he undercover? Like, it's. No, just like, in general, he did this stuff for years.
- [158:10]
A
Well, that's what I said. I was like. I. I was like, Scott, you're too humble to say this, but like, you have to be one of the most storied undercovers in the history of the FBI. Because he. The way he explained it is like, okay, if you're. If you got all the FBI undercovers in a room and you're like, okay, how many of you have. Have been the primary on one undercover? And a certain amount of hands go up and then I say, okay, what about two? What about three? What about four? And by the time you get to four, there's like, not that many hands.
- [158:34]
B
Yeah.
- [158:34]
A
And he's. He's run the gamut, bro. It's. It's so impressive.
- [158:38]
B
But he also is doing the starring actor jobs. Here's what I mean by that. This Jim Diorio has a better way of putting it. My friend Jim Diorio has been on the show a bunch. He was undercover FBI on and off for 11 years of his 20 something year career there. And he was like, you'd have. You'd have your starring role holes. So for example, he went undercover for a long period of time with an unnamed dangerous criminal organization. He had to gain 100 pounds to do. He don't even look like. When he has a picture of it doesn't even look like himself.
- [159:12]
A
Why do you got to gain that much weight?
- [159:15]
B
Because he had to look a certain part for the organization. No, no, different. Different organization. But he said then there were other times where he got to be a guest actor, meaning during the day, you know, Monday and Tuesday is in the office making cases with the suit on and the badge for FBI. And Wednesday, you know, they get a call on the fake phone that says, oh, yeah, we're doing a jewel thing on once. Yeah, yeah, he's Timmy now. Yeah, no, I'll be there. And he shows up in character the next day and then doesn't have to play that character for another two months. Right. So it's like you're on and off, but like when you are doing one of the starring roles, which is like what your boy did here over and over again, it's like there's a danger of liking the people and becoming that person. Now, did he say that it was easier to not like the guys who were like stone cold racist versus maybe, I don't know, the Biker gang guys who were drinking and doing coke and having a good time. Was there any distinction there for him?
- [160:18]
A
He. I did ask him that. He is very professional though. And he didn't, he didn't say, like, obviously he, he made it clear a number of times that he doesn't condone or didn't condone what they did. But he didn't say outright that, like, oh, these, these, these kids were idiots. And it was more difficult for me to get in character. But what I, he, he. He also had certain methods. Like when he would get back to his hotel room or something from a day of like, again, they do, bro, they would like train on the range in full kit, like set up targets and, and shoot and just become very proficient. That's what they would do. And then when he would get back to his room at night, he would then like, he, he wore a skull around his neck, like a necklace. And then when he got back to his hotel, he would take the skull off and put his cross back on and like, little subtle things like that. Oh, he would do that, yes, to remind himself that he was coming out of character. Whoa. But with the outlaws thing, like, he is a biker, you know, and that was something really interesting we talked about. Is one of the guys, Scott Town, became like his very best friend. And dude, that's, that's the crazy thing about that undercover thing. Because when he teaches now, he, this is the example that he uses. He's like, when I, when I get into a room and people, you know, I'm teaching people about undercover, he goes like, what do you think the definition of an undercover is? And people throw out a bunch of different things. And he says the definition of an undercover is. Is building friendships that you are going to betray. And in that case, that was a real friendship. And he, he did. I, I mean, you know, it's. It's the game, bro. It's. You know, I forget what it is. Like the, the cartoon where the one cop checks in in the morning and the one robber checks in in the morning and they say, you know, see you at work, Good luck.
- [162:02]
B
It's a strange thing though. And I mean, different guys, guys that I've had in here have done similar things, like Matt Hedger. And he talks about, he's like, you see these guys with their kids, you see that they can be a normal human off the clock sometimes, but they have this thing that can turn on that's not normal and not good and does not belong in society. And you have to keep reminding yourself that but it's, it's strange. It's, it's, it's a very strange thing to think about. And I would say any of these guys, a Scott, a Jim, Matt Hedger, if they, obviously they have a gene that if they had wanted to be an Academy Award winning actor, they clearly could. Cuz this is like I'm sure I would love, you know, it be amazing if you got like a Daniel Day Lewis in a studio to sit with a guy like Scott Payne, have Scott tell his story about the things you would do and then have like one of the goats break down. Be like, yeah, that's pretty good. You know what I mean? Like, oh wow, I'm going to write that one down. That's like crazy because Daniel Day is doing it for the love of the game and takes it very seriously. But it's not life and death, right? This guy can't ever really turn the character off. Except for that, that, that is interesting. He would put the cross on at night to remind himself who he was. I've heard other people talk before where they're like, you can't do that. You can't because like you can get stuck in that for a minute. So that's cool that he was able to do that. But like other than when he's alone, you never get to turn it. There's no turning it off. And it's not four months of shooting, you know, a film. It could be four years of being that guy. Being away from your fam, not able to tell your family about it. People lose.
- [163:40]
A
Yeah.
- [163:41]
B
Did he, did he lose some family or friends in, in that career?
- [163:44]
A
No, he remained married. Which again, in a field like that. Yeah, exactly. It's unheard of. He stayed married and gosh, man. Yeah. And one thing I forgot to add is his, this, this guy who's his best friend, Scott Town, you know, he would, he would hold his, his kids, their daughters were the same age, they liked all the same stuff, like they may as well have been brothers. And then he told the story about sitting in his apartment, Scott Town's apartment one day holding Scott's baby and just thinking about this whole thing. And then he looked on Scott's fridge and he had a sticker on it that said wwsd. And Scott's like, what's that? And he goes, oh, that's what would Satan do? And Scott goes, oh yeah, we're not the same, right? But yeah, bro, that is.
- [164:26]
B
But he couldn't. So his cover involved him obviously not Scott not knowing that he had his own kids like that, right?
- [164:34]
A
I don't know. His cover was that he. Cuz again, you don't go into it hot, right? Like if you, if you walk up to a biker gang in a bar like hey fellas, you want to commit some crimes like they're going to and sniff you out immediately. So like you gotta imagine going home.
- [164:50]
B
To your wife be like, yo, I got a new assignment at the office today. We got to go undercover. It'll be fine. There's gonna be a few bikers coming over. Just, just tell Susie it's gonna be.
- [164:58]
A
No, no. Yeah, yeah. I think his cover was that he was getting a divorce and that explained him being there without his family maybe, but, but yeah, crazy man.
- [165:09]
B
Did he talk about like, were they there emotions from his life and other things that happened to him maybe when he was growing up that allowed him to do this? And maybe to give you an example, what I mean, like Jim was a special forces guy and lost dudes out on the battlefield and has to this day severe PTSD from it and huge hairs like that stand up on the back of his neck and get him anxious all the time. And he was obviously able to harness that and use that like, I don't know, this isn't the right term to all encompass it, but just for the sake of argument here, use that paranoia to play these roles really well and get in there. Did Scott use anything like from his life other than some of the personal stories you mentioned?
- [165:58]
A
Yeah, he. And he did. And I asked him about this too because like the, the again this was. I try to work in like kind of or I have the past couple of episodes I've done, I try to work in like different sorts of questions. Like for him, what I asked him, I was like, okay, people are, you know, after 2020, a lot of kids especially, they don't know how to have a conversation with each other. They don't know how to shake somebody's hand and look somebody in the eye and people are having trouble making friends and just like striking up a conversation with people and, and I asked him, you know, what, what would you recommend to people to just be, you know, be more comfortable being themselves and making friends and that sort of thing. So to your question, like what he did do is he's very like outgoing and gregarious and self deprecating and that sort of thing. Like normally, right? And you want to use as much of what you got normally. So he, he used a lot of that. Just like he's just a fun guy. To be around just like a great storyteller. Really chill dude, like somebody that you like being around.
- [166:57]
B
And so storyteller.
- [166:58]
A
Yes. Which is very, very important for a format like this, you know, not even that for hours. Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [167:05]
B
Storytellers run the world. It keeps coming up today with different guys that we find interesting in our jobs who obviously use that skill.
- [167:11]
A
Yeah.
- [167:12]
B
In their real life.
- [167:13]
A
But. But, yeah. And, dude, an example I asked him about. He had. He had something in his book about basically he, like, talked himself onto a flight when. When the door was closed, and it was like, it was a detail part of the story. Like it was part of another story. But I asked him. I was like, what is. Is that? You know, like, what is. What is that ability to talk to people and move the needle and make things happen? And. And he's like, dude, that's just like. That's just me, you know? He said when he would take courses through the FBI, like, you can teach those things, but he would realize in the middle of the course that, oh, like, my brain already does this, you know, so fascinating.
- [167:50]
B
We. We get to live a little vicariously through it. It's what these dudes are saying. Isn't that cool? Crazy. Someone's sitting across from you.
- [167:57]
A
Yes.
- [167:58]
B
In your little studio. In my little studio here, and we're making a cute little YouTube video, and they're like, let me tell you about the last 25 years of my life.
- [168:08]
A
Boy, it's crazy.
- [168:09]
B
And you're like, yes, sir.
- [168:11]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [168:13]
B
You go right ahead.
- [168:13]
A
By all means. Yeah, I'd like to hear more.
- [168:16]
B
Oh, my God. Are. Are there people you want to talk to that you haven't been able to yet or get contact with?
- [168:21]
A
Oh, bro, I got a list, as I'm sure. Sure you do.
- [168:24]
B
My list is a little crazy. It moves all over the place. Like, do you actually, like, think about it on, like, my dumb ass? Like, oh, I want to talk to this guy, and then that guy and then that. Mine's just like, oh, yeah, they seem interesting. Yeah, it's like, very add well.
- [168:38]
A
Oh, yeah. Yes, big time. Because there's a lot of people that are really interesting, and that's the point, right?
- [168:42]
B
Like, forget about them. Like, oh, yeah, I wanted to talk to that guy.
- [168:45]
A
Yeah. Like, yeah, well, they are. That's true. But that's the point, bro. You don't have to have. Have some sort of crazy story or be renowned for, like, your average police officer, your average firefighter. Like, these people have incredible stories, man. So, like, you. You don't you don't have to have. You don't have to be that person. But yeah, bro, there's. Gosh, there's all kinds of people that I want to talk to, for sure. I mean, I'm, I'm endlessly interested in, in other people's stories, you know, you.
- [169:17]
B
Did, you did, you did a good one with what's his name? Tim Brown.
- [169:20]
A
Oh, thank you. Oh, God, dude.
- [169:23]
B
Yeah, speaking of there on 911, he lost like all his friends in the showers.
- [169:27]
A
He is. Oh, God, what a great guy. He's another guy that I've had an opportunity to hang out with a little bit outside the show and, and just a really, really good man. And he is an incredible storyteller. And like, dude, he is a walking memorial. Memorial for those 343 firefighters that died because, yeah, for, for, for people that haven't listened to him talk. Like, he goes through the events of the day and seeing all his best friends from the past 20 years and they, they're all dead, all of them. And he knows their very last moments. He knows where they went. Like, and the way he explains it, dude, it was just incredibly emotional and like, he doesn't hold back either, which I love. Love. Like, he lets it rip and like he, he gets emotional and he cries over his friends and memorializes them and immortalizes them. And I, Dude, I just, I thought it was like, what an honor, man. I, that was one of them that where I was like, what an honor to be able to sit here with someone and hear the stories of these people and, and have. And have this like, in my little podcast studio, as you say. Incredible, man. Incredible. He's. He's been on Danny too. He's. He's the best. I highly recommend, you know, when 911 rolls around as it is soon, you know, watch it, man. You'll hear, you'll hear the stories that we've been talking about. The, the best and worst of humanity, and in this case, the best, because again, going back to that point, those guys knew after the first tower collapse too. They knew that it was likely that when they ran up those stairs, they weren't coming back to save the lives of people that they didn't know and they fucking went up anyway.
- [171:07]
B
It's amazing.
- [171:08]
A
Amazing.
- [171:09]
B
It's. It's one of those things that. That's one of the first. You know, I have scattered memories from before that day when I was really, really little. Like, oh, I can remember this place or that thing. That's one of the first Days that I remember, I guess I was like 7 years old or something like that, like, start to finish every part of the day. And I couldn't fully comprehend what it was. But as. As the months and years went on after that, it got more and more real. And like, you're from this area of the world. Did you and your family know people who died in. In those towers?
- [171:42]
A
Yeah, one of my. One of my friends, Chris Rossini, he lost his dad.
- [171:46]
B
Yeah. And it's like, it hits extra for people who are from this area of the world. I knew a couple people in those towers, too. And more specifically, I should say I was young. I should say my. My. My parents knew a couple of people in those towers. But, you know, it's a personal event in that way. But it's also. So when you look at modern history, arguably the most seminal event that has occurred in the 21st century, like, always say the 1990s didn't end on January 1, 2000. They ended on September 11, 2001. Because that is the before and after of what our world looks like. It is all downstream. It started massive geopolitical conflicts, wars that translated into other wars that have caused all these problems. Problems. An economic boom that happened on the outset of it and then turned into an economic bust on the back end of the presidency that was in charge during that time that completely changed the complexion of a generation, financially, emotionally. You know, it was. It was a. It was a. It was like rolling up a ball of dynamite and just blowing up what we knew of the world. And yet it happened one mile from where we're sitting right now. Crazy. And then you get, guys, that's a beautiful term. A walking memorial, living memorial of those guys like Tim Brown, who can tell that story today, damn near 25 years later, as if it happened two seconds ago. And he has to live with the idea that for some reason he survived and all, most of his guys did not. I. I can't fathom it. And it's just. I don't know, people love to run with every theory about that day and stuff. And trust me, there's a lot that went on behind the scenes that involve other countries that we don't know about. And it's sinister. And I'm not. I'm not denying that, but I think sometimes we lost in the fact that a lot of people died that day and a lot of people had their life changed forever. Having to witness everything that day and then live with. With the fallout.
- [173:52]
A
Dude, he's. He's an incredible person. And like, going back to the psychology thing too. He. He tells the story year round, man. He. He speaks on, you know, to, to whether it's fire departments, he speaks in the intelligence community at conferences. He's on podcasts all the time. He never stops living this story. And he's not doing it for himself. It's not for financial gain. He's actually working on a book now. I think it would probably be okay for me to say that, but it's not, it's not for personal gain, man. It's not. It's not for any of that. It's. It's so that we never forget. Never forget means never forget forget. And that's why he's doing it. So like, gosh, man. And it's so true. 911 was just. Especially in the kind of people that we have on our shows. It's. It's. It's this one constant that connects everyone. You know, like John was there on. On 911 at CIA headquarters. Brent enlisted because of 911.
- [174:42]
B
You know, so many guys did that.
- [174:43]
A
It's unreal, dude.
- [174:44]
B
And the mission status change because of 911. All of them.
- [174:48]
A
100. And to your point, like, it was. Wasn't just. It wasn't just this time in America. It literally changed the entire world because.
- [174:57]
B
You know, literally, I didn't realize this until somewhat recently, actually, but I'm an idiot because it was so obvious. Every military guy I've had on, all of whom are no longer active, so they were in it, you know, during this global war on terror period. Some of them were in it, before it and during it and after it. Every single person I've ever had on. At some point the question comes up, where were you on 9 11?
- [175:24]
A
Yeah.
- [175:25]
B
And then how did that change things? And it changed everything for all of them. I mean, we were, you know, we were fighting in Bosnia before 9 11. People. People don't even remember that, you know, and then these same guys, oh, we're footing over here. Let's go. And then we all know the fallout of everything and how it got taken advantage of by. By a select group of not great people. But it is. It is such a crazy, crazy inflection point, not just for our country, but for the world. So I always appreciate when. When, you know, guys like Tim get to go on and just talk about the day itself.
- [176:01]
A
Yeah.
- [176:02]
B
And what that was like, you know, big time. You ever worry, though, that, I mean, people were so fucking together on September 12, 2001. I can remember, remember that you ever worry that that's unfortunately the kind of stuff it takes for people to actually come together and put, put aside some base differences?
- [176:19]
A
I don't worry that. I believe that.
- [176:21]
B
Yeah.
- [176:22]
A
And it's unfortunate, and I hope that day doesn't come.
- [176:24]
B
Yeah.
- [176:25]
A
But to your point, September 12th, bro, none of the things that, you know, we've discussed around this narrative versus this one, you know, Julian versus Dalton. Julian's not Julian. Dalton's not Dalton. We're American. Americans.
- [176:39]
B
Right. I remember a story my mom told me back then. It's just one of those things I can remember from that week. She was in the gym, like, a few days later, and one of the women that she always talked to in the gym, they were walking out, and it's crazy to think about, but eight months before 9, 11 was like the most, at the time, most contested election ever, and people were very divided over, over that. And the woman said to her, she said, you know, I wasn't really sure that Bush actually won, and I don't like him. You know, I, I voted for Gore, and, and I, I wanted him to win, but I, I'm fully behind him now. And, and I, and I, I, I hope to see us respond to this the way we're supposed to. And obviously that didn't end up turning out great, but something about, like, could you imagine, imagine someone saying that about, like, Trump right now, if something bad happened, but, like, it's not inconceivable, which is crazy, you could get the person that really hated him to be like, well, you know, they just, whoever it is, just hit us. And I'm rooting for him. And it's like, it's so sad to me that sometimes it, it takes that.
- [177:51]
A
Well, I hope it doesn't, man, but that's something that I've learned from, from having these people on, too. And just like the, you know, the insight into, to these, these radical Islamists and how they think, and they think long term, bro, there doesn't need to happen, doesn't need to happen tomorrow, and they'll play the long game. And, you know, I, I hope that, I hope that we're wrong about that hypothesis, and I hope that it doesn't take something on that scale. But.
- [178:26]
B
We have a very unique American view in one respect. That's a huge downside, which is that we have trouble even thinking about a tomorrow, as we're one of the youngest countries in the world there. And we are also not primarily one race. We are all different types of people, all coming together, which Is the beautiful thing about our country, the thing about a lot of these other countries is they primarily will all be one different separate race. And they have. Have ties that go back thousands of years on the land that they're on. And they also have borders with other countries where there have been massive, you know, geopolitical events and wars that happen between them. Whereas we are, you know, we got borders to the south and north and we got to take care of and stuff, but we are separated from the rest of the world by seas on both sides, which is a huge advantage. We. I always joke, like, outside of the War of 1812, we have never been invaded for a sustained period. And it really shows. And so we are complacent. Whereas other places, they generationally understand that they could not exist tomorrow. And so they are thinking about, depending on the culture, it could be a hundred years out or it could be a thousand years out. And, like, there's a respect I have for that. But to your point, you know, anyone who could be an enemy or perceived enemy, enemy or potential enemy. Yeah. Just statistically speaking, they're thinking farther out than we do. And, you know, I. I think a lot of. Unfortunately, a lot of people in America, we take that for granted, and it's crazy that we do that. And, you know, September 11th wasn't that long ago. You know what I mean? But that's, that's what happens over time. People start to focus on other things.
- [180:09]
A
Dude. And I think that, you know, in addition to your point about some of these Middle Eastern countries, that their survival is front of mind for them at all times. I think the further that we get, or any society gets away from the survival line, the more we start to just create these own problems for ourselves. Yes. Like, do you think that. You think that kids that are starving to death in wherever they happen to be are.
- [180:40]
B
That was a very politically correct way of putting that. And I'll.
- [180:43]
A
I'll tell you why I said that. Do you think that those kids are worried about, you know, standing in Starbucks waiting for their coffee and complaining about being oppressed? And I said it that way because I don't, you know, I try not to speak on things that I'm not well educated enough to. To speak on. In general, on camera is different. And, you know, how's it different on camera? That's a good question, I guess, because, I mean, I try to. I'm trying to just be cognizant of the fact that. That this is not going anywhere, you know, like, this. This will be here And I don't want to say things that I'm not perfectly educated on that won't age well or things that I don't know for sure.
- [181:40]
B
Oh, the things that are happening are going on.
- [181:43]
A
Yeah, yeah. Meaning, like, I just don't want to speak on what I don't know. But again, like, off camera, maybe I can have a conversation with someone that, that is a little different than, than on camera. That's a good question, though.
- [181:54]
B
No, I, I, I respect that. It's the one thing, you know, I think the reason my podcast works is because the cameras go on and nothing changes. The one thing you have to be a little bit more measured about is when you get to the most controversial geopolitical issues, things happening around the world where there are massive, you know, lives lost going on in, on, in different facts, facets. You gotta be, it matters how you say things.
- [182:24]
A
Right?
- [182:24]
B
And that's what I mean. You will literally see with some of these things, you will see me pause and be like, I know how I'd say this if we were just letting it hang.
- [182:34]
A
Yeah.
- [182:34]
B
With the boys, but I need, like, I owe more respect to the situation.
- [182:39]
A
Exactly.
- [182:39]
B
To say in a more, I don't know, educated sounding and being conscious of what, I don't know, sounding way. And that's, that's the one place where I think you have to, and that's, that's good that you have that, where you have to be careful. Because also, like, I don't think of this thing as anything serious, but, like, it does have eyeballs and you don't know who's hearing that and who's passively being like, oh, that must be what the truth is.
- [183:04]
A
Well, exactly.
- [183:04]
B
And I don't want them taking that from me. That's, that's not, you know, people out there need to decide things on their own. Not, not because I say something that'd be a very bad idea.
- [183:14]
A
Yeah, I agree. And I think as you were saying that I was kind of thinking more about that. And I think that, number one, I just, I try to be professional. I think professionalism kind of across the board as it relates to my podcast is really, really important to me. And not to say that I'm perfect at it, but I really try to do my best with it. But the other thing is the fact that I've kind of drilled into my own head not to interject my own opinion on my podcast, because that's not what I want. I don't want me on my show. I want the guest on my show. So it's. It's just. It's funny being here, sitting here now and thinking about, okay, well, now is, like, now I'm talking a little bit. So it's just something that I've kind of embedded into the way I act when the cameras are on because I want to keep myself out of it.
- [183:55]
B
So are you afraid of the outcomes, of what the response could be to that?
- [183:59]
A
No, not. Well, no. The reason I, like what I mean by that is, like, my show is if I'm doing my job right, I'm talking as little as possible. I'm not interjecting my own personal opinions or stories or weighing in on something that the guest says. I'm keeping my fucking mouth shut and asking pertinent questions and following the thread, and the interview is about them. It has nothing to do with me. And I think that's. That's what's been working about it. Because people crave that There's. There's so many. Because, again, bro, like, as you know, I think this is a fascinating concept, a podcast or an interview, rather. I think that you've called yourself a podcaster or a conversationalist, not an interviewer. I've heard you say. Say that you're. You've never interviewed anyone in a day in your life. There you go. So the mechanics of an interview are very, very different than that of a conversation.
- [184:50]
B
Yes.
- [184:50]
A
If I'm talking to you in. In a coffee shop, if we're having a conversation and you're talking for 20 minutes at a time and I'm just looking at you like this, you're gonna be like, this guy is a sociopath, and I'm worried about what's in his pocket right now. But in an interview, that is the format, and it doesn't work otherwise. Otherwise, you know what I mean? So, like, you have to. For me, I've had to beat these things into my system to resist the natural urge to jump in and convey to someone audibly that you're listening. Right. Because the more you say, yeah, that's fucking annoying to listen to after a while. Yeah. So you learn to do things like, convey that you're listening with your facial expressions. And again, these are all things that, like, I am. I try to be hypersensitive of on my show. And obviously, obviously, they are kind of dripping into other aspects of. Of this. But, yeah, well, you're doing an awesome.
- [185:41]
B
Job, bro, and I know you'll keep developing, like, how you. You know, what your role in it is. I. I understand that it's it's a, it's something you do have to consciously think about. Just if you are getting attention like you know it. You're not necessarily moving the legislative needle, but there's the needle overall when you put all these different shows together of like popular opinion and what people listen to to and not. And it's, it's a tough thing to think about. But you do an amazing job with the editing of your show.
- [186:10]
A
Thank you.
- [186:11]
B
The questions are great. The guests have been amazing. You've been at it now for coming up on a couple years, which is great. I like to see people sustain with that. So everyone can check out Dawn Fisher podcast on YouTube videos also on Spotify now too, right?
- [186:24]
A
Yep.
- [186:25]
B
Okay, so we got it there and.
- [186:26]
A
Then because of you, I believe.
- [186:28]
B
Listen, bro, I told you put that video on.
- [186:31]
A
I know.
- [186:31]
B
We are, we are. That's great. That's great. Especially at the, the quality you're doing. It'd be like a waste not to put on there. But you also got your Instagram account. We'll put that link down below and then. Are you on X too, dude?
- [186:44]
A
I like made one, but I don't know.
- [186:46]
B
All right, we'll put that down there on X. Yeah, X is an interesting place these days.
- [186:50]
A
I don't know if it's great for my mental health, to tell you the truth.
- [186:52]
B
I don't think it's great for anybody's. But free speech is painful, as they say, so.
- [186:56]
A
Fair enough.
- [186:57]
B
Anyway, thanks so much for talking, man. It's great to finally hear like a little bit of your perspective from the other side of the mic and hope to do it again sometime, dude.
- [187:04]
A
Yeah, for sure. Thank you for having me, man. It's. It's cool to be here. And, and like I said, if it was anybody else, I, I don't know that I would have done it because I didn't want the attention. But it was, it was like I said, man, you're an inspiration for, for me show being shown that it can be done. So it's cool to be sitting across from you rather than watching you in your parents house with, with Jim Lawler talking about controlled sociopathy.
- [187:25]
B
That's, that's that's awesome, man. I really appreciate that. It's very, very, very cool to hear that. So thank you. And keep doing what you're doing.
- [187:33]
A
We'll do, brother.
- [187:33]
B
All right, everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought, get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.