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Julian Dorey Podcast
#336 - BREAKING: CJNG Cartel is Abducting Women, Forcing C-Sections & Selling Kids | Katarina Szulc
02:42:10
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- [00:00]
A
This is by far the worst story I've ever covered. So I got in contact with a Mexican law enforcement source who told me that in Juarez, Mexico, young vulnerable women are being kidnapped towards the end of their pregnancies, held at a trap house, and then their babies are being taken out of them to then sell these infants to Americans in El Paso. There's a lot of desert and barren land, and you know how that goes. Dozens of victims. What I've been told is that Jalisco New Generation cartel is running this operation. These guys have managed to absorb power at a rate that we've never really seen before, but I never really got into the nitty gritty of how evil this cartel is.
- [00:41]
B
So I'm used to seeing insanely sick. This is a whole nother level. Cat Schultz, back for round three. Kind of an emergency podcast here. You've covered like 40 stories.
- [00:52]
A
Yeah, but in this case, I am here at the Port of Vancouver, a hotspot for.
- [00:59]
B
Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. Seriousness. Kat Schultz, back for round three. Yeah, kind of an emergency podcast here. You've covered, by the way, like 40 stories since we sat down at the beginning of June.
- [01:25]
A
It's been non stop.
- [01:26]
B
There's a lot to talk about. You're doing a great job with your show over on Ironclad. I don't know if that other stuff you can talk about yet in the future.
- [01:34]
A
Yeah, I can.
- [01:34]
B
Okay, so we'll talk about that too. You have some cool stuff coming up that you're going to be doing, but you just broke a story that like stopped me in my tracks because you.
- [01:44]
A
Clocked it right away.
- [01:45]
B
Oh, my God, it's. It is. I mean, I'm. I'm used to seeing insanely sick shit with the cartel, even for the low lives that they are. This is a whole another level. So let's just start at the beginning. Yeah, the basis of. The basis of what the story is and how you found out and what you found out since.
- [02:07]
A
Okay, this is by far the worst story I've ever covered. So basically I got in contact with a Mexican law enforcement source who told me basically right off the bat that women, young, vulnerable women in Juarez, Mexico, which is right there along the El Paso border, are being kidnapped towards the end of their pregnancies, held at like a trap house essentially. And then their babies are being take. Taken out of them by like rudimentary cesarean section by what is believed to be a certified OBGYN who's performing these operations to then sell these infants to Americans in El Paso.
- [02:57]
B
Do the Americans know where they're. What they're.
- [03:00]
A
This is the problem, right? Because when I got this information, and it was from a very reputable source, and I corroborated before I even put the story out there, because when I got this and I saw the images and I was reading all the details and listening to all the details, I was like, holy, this is the worst thing that I've ever heard. And, you know, like, we see cartel violence, and I'm covering it constantly, but this was a new low. And so when I got all the information, my first question was, who are the buyers? And do they know what's happening? And why are they buying these kids? Like, is it illegal adoption? Is it human trafficking? How much are they buying the babies for? And do they know that these babies are being taken from the mothers in cold blood?
- [03:46]
B
Buying babies at the beginning, regardless of what. Like, what the fuck are you doing?
- [03:51]
A
Well, here's the thing. If it's illegal adoption, like, and okay, let's say ideally that the buyers are people who are dying to be parents, and they are under the impression that they're going through some private, small adoption firm based out of Mexico. I don't believe this to be the case. Stefano, at all. Source News, him and I sort of made a bet because he believes that this is the case. I don't think so. But let's say in an ideal world, that's what's happening, is that these are parents who are like, oh, we've secured a baby. We want to build a family. First of all, I think if you are getting a baby, like, through illegal. Like, if you believe that this is legitimate, you. You should not be a parent in the first place, because how fucking demented do you have to be to not see through this? Second of all, even if you have a fishy feeling that maybe something is up, again, you should not be a parent, because how selfish can you be to take a baby from a woman who died because she was kidnapped for this baby? So what I've been told is that CJ&G is running this operation for people.
- [05:07]
B
Out there who are familiar.
- [05:08]
A
Jalisco New Generation Cartel, which is the most expansionist and powerful cartel and violent cartel in all of Mexico. And I would say in Mexican cartel history, like, these guys have managed to absorb power at a rate that we've never really seen before, to be honest. And since Their uprising, they have shown and proven just how violent they can be, even towards innocent people. There doesn't seem to really be a code. And when I. I've done a lot of reporting on cjng, and I've always spoken about how they're very powerful, they're very violent, and they're very intelligent, and the leadership seems to be very intelligent because they know how to absorb cartels or smaller mafias and gangs within Mexico or, like, make an alliance like they did with the Chipitos recently.
- [05:59]
B
Define absorb, by the way. Like, outside of making alliances, like, what else could that mean?
- [06:04]
A
Basically, you go into a region where maybe the resources for the local cartel or mafia gang aren't super strong. You tell them, we're going to put our guys in. You guys are still going to make money. But essentially, this is CJ&G territory. You guys can use our name, which a lot of these smaller mafias and gangs like to do, because it gives them kind of like a backbone. Yeah, it gives them power. So it's like we're four letters. We're C.J. and G now, even if they're not technically C.J. and G. But that's how the absorption kind of starts. Right. And so I'm being told that this is run by CJ&G. And like I was saying, I've always, in my reporting talked about how powerful they are and their power dynamic in Mexico, but I never really got into the nitty gritty of just how evil this cartel is. That's for a multitude of reasons. The first one being because I don't want to get murdered by them. And they don't seem to have a code of ethics. Like, women are dying. I mean, you guys laugh, but let's talk about mob history. It used to be, like, no women and kids, right?
- [07:13]
B
This is a whole. This isn't mob. This is. This is demented terrorism. I think it's, like, beyond that, even they're a business, too. Like, it's like.
- [07:24]
A
It's like a Fortune 500.
- [07:25]
B
Worse. But you know what I mean? Like, it. It's. It's sick. They're sending fentanyl across the border to us. They're apparently doing. Whatever this. It's just the babies.
- [07:34]
A
Okay, so this is another thing, right? If we compare it to fentanyl. When I interview cartel members and when we talk about this, a lot of them believe and say, well, I'm not directly killing these Americans who are using fentanyl. I'm just providing a product that there's an insatiable appetite for. In this case, they don't have that excuse like you are literally holding a woman captive. And keep in mind, I'm told that these victims, now this has only been going on for a couple months. Only as in like, you know, but that's horrible that it's already been going on for that long. There's dozens of victims. I've told it's less than 100.
- [08:13]
B
How do you, how do you know this?
- [08:15]
A
Because I was told by a source in law enforcement.
- [08:19]
B
So they knew. The better question is there's an investigation going on only a couple months ago. How did they know it wasn't happening before that?
- [08:26]
A
Because that's when this got flagged. And it appears as though these babies are being taken across the border with fraudulent paperwork. And so this is how authorities sort of became aware of it. The crazy part is they didn't become aware of it because, oh, pregnant women are going missing and turning up dead. You would think that that should be enough of a motive to launch an investigation. Unfortunately, in Juarez there's been a crisis of missing and murdered women since the 1990s. I think it started in like 1993, was like the first like big headlining case of a young woman who turned up dead. And over the course of the last couple decades it's been like, is there a serial killer or serial killers in Juarez? Or why is the femicide so bad? And I know people get triggered when I say femicide, but it's like if innocent women are being killed simply on the basis that they're a woman or that they're pregnant, you can take the baby that is femicide. Like of course, get wrecked.
- [09:23]
B
Of course.
- [09:24]
A
So. And it's vulnerable. Like you're telling me that a 17 year old pregnant girl is going to be able to defend herself against a couple armed guys who come up and are like, you're going to give us your baby, Come on. So basically this operation is full fledged and it's CG and G and they're obviously working with elements of La Linea or the Juarez cartel.
- [09:47]
B
Do we know what kind of money is exchanging hands?
- [09:51]
A
Or it's like in the hundreds of thousands of dollars because essentially these babies are making up for the gap of the lack of drug and human smuggling from Mexico into the United States because.
- [10:02]
B
The border's more secure. Yes, but now we give babies across the board.
- [10:07]
A
So this is a thing that I want to bring up because I think it's really critical to talk about the fact that everyone is so concerned about securing the border. And obviously I've talked about that in my reporting too. But this is where the whole argument comes in of well, what if we just decriminalize drugs or you know, we just secure the border, it stops. These guys will always find a way to make money. And when the border, when this administration first was like, we're going to lock down on the border, I was under the impression that extortion would go up, crude oil theft, trafficking would go up, and also the agricultural shit that we've talked about. Right. I was not expecting this to be the way that they were going to fill that financial gap.
- [10:53]
B
You said hundreds of thousands of dollars per baby, baby.
- [11:00]
A
So these Americans are not, they're well off. And that's why it's very hard for me to believe that these people do not know where it's coming from. Where it's coming from. And you know, I feel bad that. Okay, so I reported this story with the bare bones information that I had.
- [11:17]
B
Okay, what's your reaction when you get that phone call? Are you like you. No way. At first.
- [11:23]
A
At first, yeah, I didn't believe it. Well, it's not that I didn't believe it at first. I was like, you know, I'm on the fence because that's typically how I am when I get these types of tips, especially because there's a lot of bullshit that people will try to send my way. And I'm at a point now where I typically can, I can weed out the bullshit pretty quick. And so when I first got it, I was like, I don't know. And then I talked to multiple sources who could corroborate this and everyone was like, yeah, this is happening.
- [12:02]
B
And we're obviously don't give away your sources, but like, are you getting people that are on the ground in wars? Are you getting other law enforcement officials? How are you triangulating that without revealing.
- [12:20]
A
Yeah, I don't want to say that, cuz I really can't reveal this source whatsoever. It goes really high up.
- [12:29]
B
Okay.
- [12:29]
A
On both sides of the border. We'll just leave it at that.
- [12:33]
B
Okay, that's good.
- [12:34]
A
Because. Okay, and why. Right. And, and I know that people are going to ask this because then people always say like your sources. Trust me, bro. Here's the thing with this type of coverage, there are real life implications. Okay? This is a real investigation. These are real young women who are dying and real infants who are being trafficked. So yeah, I'm a journalist, but I'm also fucking human. So at the end of the day do I. I want to see justice for these women and I want to see an end to this.
- [13:05]
B
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- [14:21]
A
So I won't say anything if that means compromising the investigation. Even if that means that, oh, maybe the audience will trust me more, I can reveal more information, I don't care because I don't want this to happen. That's how you gotta be in this type of coverage. It's very sensitive because like you said, when I get this tip at first it's like, okay, let me really look into it. Once I corroborated it with the people that I did, I was like, I was very sad, honestly, because I always put my, myself in the position of these women. And you and I have actually talked about this on the first episode. When I cover things like this, it's like you think of it like being in that type of position and knowing that you can't get out and you're going to meet a death and there's literally no escape and you're going through whatever torture you're going through and I cannot fathom what that would feel like. And then on top of that being pregnant and being so young. It's like, from what I've heard, when you're pregnant, you're like mother bear mode. Right? Like, you have to protect. It's biological. And so imagine being held captive for your unborn baby and knowing, like, there is nothing you can do about it. And then being in Juarez, where, you know no one is coming to look for you. And then on top of that, knowing that after all is said and done, there may not even be an investigation into what happened to you or where your baby ends up.
- [15:59]
B
Have any. Obviously, this is a new racket, as you've pointed out.
- [16:03]
A
It is, yeah.
- [16:05]
B
These are obviously very poor women who are being targeted.
- [16:08]
A
They're all from poor neighborhoods, and they all come from low socioeconomic backgrounds.
- [16:13]
B
So have any families of victims made any attempts?
- [16:19]
A
No. No. And. And I didn't expect them to, and they won't. There's a major fear of retaliation, and there's also just a lack of even understanding of how to go about this. Imagine growing up in an environment where you are so used to seeing injustices, and then something this severe happens to you. I think that a lot of these people are just completely disincentivized from even trying to seek justice because they know that, if anything, it will just result in further injustice. Like, you see these mothers who go looking for their missing children, and then they end up dead. Then what? And then no one's investigating them. Now you have two dead or missing people and no one to look for them. So. And then if you're coming from a low socioeconomic background, and when we're talking about poor, like, I don't know if that's politically correct. I don't care. When you're. When we're talking about poor here, like, these. These women are, like, they're. They do not have anything, which is why they are the perfect targets for this.
- [17:23]
B
Yeah, of course. Because they're young.
- [17:25]
A
They're young. A lot of them. I'm under the impression that a lot of them are, like, single mothers. Right. So, like, they're pregnant. They don't. There's no, like, father figure in that picture.
- [17:37]
B
I wonder. Maybe I'm totally off base here, and I don't even know if you would have any access to be able to even get this information.
- [17:44]
A
Yeah.
- [17:45]
B
I wonder if some of these girls are getting pregnant at the hands of guys who are in the cartel, and then they're like, oh, I don't want this kid.
- [17:55]
A
No. So actually, one of my questions was, are these girls like, Going out with the people who are running this operation. And also are some of these girls saying, I'll give you my baby for money, and they don't know that they're gonna die. Right. That doesn't appear to be the case.
- [18:11]
B
On what. How were you able to rule that out? If you can't answer that?
- [18:15]
A
It's part of the investigation that these women are being kidnapped against their will. The babies are being taken against their will, and the women are ending up dead and their bodies dumped with. Literally. This is so graphic. And this is what killed me.
- [18:29]
B
Like, we have to tell these stories because people need to understand what. What. What is happening here.
- [18:34]
A
They're literally being dumped, like, completely cut open. So the way that the babies are being removed, the babies are surviving. And of course, because the babies are the product here in this operation. Right. So there's an OB gyn, but there is no medical care for the mother, obviously, because I think also the goal is to kill her. But it's so rudimentary the way that they're performing these surgeries.
- [19:02]
B
And a pro's doing it, but it's still rudimentary.
- [19:05]
A
Oh. Because it's like, hurry the fuck up. Get the baby out. Make sure the baby's alive, and we're gonna kill her anyways. So if you really, like. If we're thinking about this, like, really black and white, that woman is, like, the vessel for the product. It doesn't matter that when their bodies are found, their guts are literally hanging out and it's just, like, battered, and they're being found, like, fully naked, just completely.
- [19:29]
B
Have you seen this?
- [19:33]
A
Yeah, and I wish that I haven't.
- [19:35]
B
Yeah.
- [19:36]
A
Hadn't. It's like that where. I don't know. It's different. It's. I've seen a lot of violence. Right. You. You see all the time, and being in Mexico, you see, like, bodies. Hanging, murdered bodies. And a lot of time, men or, like, women who were shot. But this is so different.
- [20:02]
B
Yeah.
- [20:03]
A
This is so evil. It's unlike anything I've ever seen before.
- [20:12]
B
I. I don't really have a. I.
- [20:14]
A
Mean, because it's a perfect victim. That's. That what? That's a perfect victim. Yeah. Like, I've talked about this before, like, in the case of, like, Valeria Marquez. You know that Tick Tock. Tick Tocker who was shot on Tick Tock Live.
- [20:25]
B
Yes.
- [20:25]
A
And she was allegedly dating the guy who was a plaza boss for cjng. Now a lot of people were like, well, that's what she gets for following the money and dating like a criminal. So in my opinion, I believe that people don't have to be perfect victims in order for us to have sympathy or compassion for what happened to them. And that they don't deserve that. Right. But in. So in that case, she had ties to a criminal life and there was a possibility that something could have happened to her. For these women, not the case. Like they are simply existing, probably working a regular job, trying to get by, trying to help their families, fell pregnant, maybe like lack sexual health education or just you know, being in whatever relationship. We know how it works, pregnancy and in poor communities it's a thing. And then ending up in this situation like that, that's a perfect victim. So then when I'm seeing that and thinking just how helpless this girl thought and you know, most of them are younger than me.
- [21:29]
B
Yeah, you're talking about, you've been talking.
- [21:30]
A
About like 17, 17, 19, 20, 21 that I can't imagine. Like if I think back at my 17 year old self in my brain, first of all being pregnant, but being in a scenario where it's like I'm trapped in some place with some unknown men and I know they're gonna kill me and I'm frickin pregnant and what are they gonna do with my baby? What are they gonna do to me? I cannot even imagine what that would be like.
- [21:59]
B
Can we pull up Joe, just a map of Juarez so people can also get bearings with where we're talking about. Have you been able to get information on where the body. Well, I want to come back to that. But where specifically they're crossing the border?
- [22:18]
A
It seems to be just through the regular border crossing from Hos to El Paso. And so they have. Yeah, so they have a team or there are people part of this ring conducting this operation who are creating fraudulent documentation. So health records for the baby adoption paperwork.
- [22:35]
B
And they're just driving them across. Yeah, in suits.
- [22:40]
A
I don't know exactly like how. But think of this, right? Human trafficking is one of the hardest. Like trafficking humans is one of the hardest things you could do. So there you go. That's Chuo has the map and Ciudad Juarez is right there, right by, right.
- [23:00]
B
Under El Paso, Texas. And I guess that's New Mexico up there. Right. Okay. And how, how big is. That's a pretty big area. It's a, that's a few hundred miles, right?
- [23:10]
A
Yeah. And there's a lot of like obviously desert like and barren land where they find a lot of clandestine graves.
- [23:16]
B
Oh yeah.
- [23:17]
A
It's honestly like the perfect. And it's a border town and you know how that goes.
- [23:22]
B
So are they. Sorry, we're jumping around.
- [23:26]
A
Yeah, let me go back to finish that thought. So if you think about trafficking or smuggling, right. Humans is one of the most difficult things that you could possibly smuggle or traffic because you have an identity. You have people who know you. Like, there are so many components. Yeah. They're living. It's completely different than trafficking a kidney or trafficking 20 kilos of cocaine. Yeah, easy. Yeah, but a human is different. Now think of an infant who requires. Who's just born. The mother is not there, and it requires constant care and in some cases, probably medical care.
- [24:06]
B
Crying all the time too, you know?
- [24:09]
A
Well, I. I have a feeling that they're sedating the babies.
- [24:12]
B
Come on.
- [24:13]
A
How the else. Yeah, you think?
- [24:16]
B
Is that even, like, is that even healthy to do to them at all?
- [24:21]
A
Buddy, you're asking about, like, if this is healthy, linkable.
- [24:24]
B
No, no, I understand that, but you. I would think half of them might. They. They might over sedate. They might not even.
- [24:31]
A
I think they're being super careful because this is the. This is.
- [24:33]
B
Well, I'm glad they're being careful about that. Oh, my God.
- [24:41]
A
You guys know we're not laughing because it's funny. It's so fucked up.
- [24:45]
B
Just fucked up.
- [24:47]
A
So I think, yeah, a lot of what they're doing to make their operation easier is probably not healthy or safe, but I think that they're doing what needs to be done in order for this baby to survive. At least survive until it gets into the hands of the buyer, who, by the way, like, it doesn't seem like there is much attention on who are the buyers. And that's my first question. And that's what I want to know. And I'm sure that anyone watching, that's what we want to know. Because what differentiates this from any other cartel problem we talked about? Now Americans are implicated. This is not just a Mexico problem. These are Americans who are fully implicated in cartel and funding cartel operations.
- [25:29]
B
This almost seems maybe I'm. I'm definitely thinking this way too oversimplified. So let's. Let's bring it back to reality when I say this. But like, yeah, they're making fake documentation for these kids and stuff, but can't you run like a. I don't know, some data tracking set just to see, like, who was born in a US Hospital? And then suddenly, if you see a family of means that has a child that's unaccounted for from a US Hospital. Is that enough without violating constitutional rights to conduct an investigation?
- [26:02]
A
So that's what we're all trying to figure out. Because also there has to be some sort of legitimate adoption paperwork on the American side. Right? So how is that happening? But again, and this is why, I'm sorry, like, I'm, I'm giving bare bones on this, but had to break this because we know it's happening. The ins and outs of exactly how the operation is happening. Again, I have bare bones with that. And of course, that's because it's an ongoing investigation and it's fairly new and it's really tragic. So that's what I want to figure out. Who on the, on the American side is implicated? How are these infants ending up there? Now, put the illegal adoption aspect to the side, right? If this is human trafficking, which I believe it is, then the paperwork doesn't have to go that far up the pipeline.
- [26:58]
B
Why not?
- [26:59]
A
Because these kids are not. They're. Well, first of all, this has only been going on for so long, so we can't even talk about, like, if they're going to school or whatever like that. Right. But if they're being put into the hands of criminals who are gonna use them for sex trafficking or.
- [27:15]
B
Oh, well, yeah, in that case.
- [27:16]
A
Or like infant organ harvesting. I know it sounds fake. Like.
- [27:25]
B
Oh, no, it doesn't. That's the worst part. It doesn't sound fake at all.
- [27:28]
A
I wish it did.
- [27:29]
B
Infant organ harvesting.
- [27:32]
A
This is what kills me because the story is about babies.
- [27:37]
B
You know, my, my friend Remy Adeleca had him on the podcast back in July 2023, I think I put those out in September 2023. But he's a Navy Seal. Former Navy Seal who's done a lot of work around the world on human trafficking. And he's also an actor and director and he made a movie called the U.N. can we Google this? Remy Adeleke, the Uninvite. Now the human trafficking movie. The on the Unexpected. And it's a, it's. It shows a backward chain of how organ harvesting happens. And it takes you from some wealthy couple, you know, at some hospital in Mexico with a doctor coming out and saying, your son took the heart. He's going to be okay. And they're like, oh, thank God. And it takes you all the way back to the beginning to the person that that came from. And I say this because, not that this makes it any better, but it was a full blown adult who was taken in this case like it was a yazidi from the war zone. He was telling the story as things really happened. Like when they were part of a genocide back in the days when ISIS was coming up. But like you're talking about that same thing. And I'm picturing all the scenes that he showed in graphic detail, which is important that he showed it in the movie. It's hard to watch, but people can watch on YouTube. You should, you know, and I'm thinking about that now with an infant and somehow it makes it that much worse.
- [29:16]
A
Worse. I know it's because it's just like a complete innocent being.
- [29:20]
B
Yeah. It's got. No.
- [29:21]
A
Completely defenseless. So it's like human nature to care for that. Not.
- [29:26]
B
Yeah.
- [29:27]
A
Do all of this. Yeah. This is the. The worst story and I'm still digging for it. So I'm going to Juarez this week. Will have been there by the time this goes out.
- [29:41]
B
This is not coming out before. Are you worried about going there considering that you've publicly talked about this story now?
- [29:47]
A
Yeah. And the. Actually last night the structure of security, the police force and sort of local government in Juarez shifted. Some people were let go. People who were very honest and actually like if I had a problem, I likely could have called and said, hey, you know there's a problem and they would have helped me out. That doesn't exist anymore.
- [30:20]
B
Sorry. We just had one thing in there that couldn't be on camera. So we're back to what you were saying. What I was going to be asking you was why aren't. Obviously those people were just like go yesterday. But before then, where were they on this investigation?
- [30:37]
A
Like if they're investigating it.
- [30:38]
B
Okay, so. So meaning. All right. This gives me some hope in humanity. Even though they just got let go. There are within the police force, government, whatever, within Juarez security.
- [30:48]
A
Yes.
- [30:48]
B
There are some people who really do care and are trying.
- [30:52]
A
Yes.
- [30:53]
B
But they're trying to stop this.
- [30:54]
A
Yes.
- [30:56]
B
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- [32:28]
A
100%? They got too close. I think that this, this was kind of, it was brewing to get to this point for about two years and then it kind of came to a head. But I also want to clarify that no one that was like let go and all of this was anywhere near the source of information that I got this from. Just want to clarify that because I feel like people might think, oh, but I think that these individuals were doing their job properly and got too close to something. I don't actually know if it was like this very story, but it could be. But I'm these. This. It's like separate.
- [33:11]
B
No, I got you. I understand. And you also got to be careful.
- [33:14]
A
Like, but these guys actually like weren't my sources. So I'm just trying to like make that clear because then I don't want to see retaliation where it doesn't belong either.
- [33:23]
B
Right. Do you, have you gotten. Have you heard from people I don't know, connected to the situation or have even heard things that you're on the radar of like CJNG or, or people there where they're like, we don't like what this girl's reporting?
- [33:41]
A
No, I haven't heard of that yet. Like, but as I was saying, that could change. Hopefully it doesn't. But because my reporting was very much like talking about the internal structure and how powerful they are, I don't think they at any point would see me as a threat because in public I was kind of flaunting the muscles for them, flexing the muscles for them. Right. Like telling people this is the most powerful cartel, this is the most violent cartel. They want people to know that. But now this does not paint anyone. This story doesn't paint anyone in a positive light, obviously. And so this is the type of story that journalists could get flack from. Hopefully I'm exempt from that. Who knows? We'll figure that out. But at the end of the day, I think that anyone who is part of this operation would inherently know that it's wrong. And I would hope so. I don't know. I can't comprehend it because there's truly no amount of money that could possibly ever make me understand, like, how you would do this.
- [34:54]
B
I can't believe, though, I understand that.
- [34:57]
A
Like, the drug trafficking, like the Luke, like, drug trafficking is very lucrative. I get it, okay? Honestly, I get it. And I've seen videos, you know, I've seen $200 million in cash and, oh, my God, and we're bawling out and it's like, all right, I get it. You want to be rich. This is so different than that.
- [35:18]
B
This. Yeah, I. What? I can't believe. This is what's not clocking to me. I understand that business ain't a booming like it was like during the Biden years, where, you know, you could walk across the border and have a burger with the patrol while you're dealing drugs. I get it that it's not like that. But we are talking about transnational organizations that still are moving significant, significant drugs around the world and into the United States still through other means, not even just through the border. Maybe their profits are down 5, 10% or something. Big whoop over the last seven months. They're that desperate because of that little of a lot like a bad quarter. But see that they're going to start moving infants that they cut out of women to make a few hundred. Like, I. Maybe it's just because I'm a normal human being. I don't understand why that's the first thing they're going to. It's also the highest risk business. And you want to talk about something that if it get. If the cat gets out of the bag too much with the American public, that is the kind of thing that could lead to people in the American public being like, bomb the whole country, you know what I mean? And do shit like that.
- [36:35]
A
Well, when I posted this story, that was the response that I got. And especially because of all the rhetoric that's been going going on lately. And it's like my most asked question, like, should the US Invade Mexico? And I'm always like, no, but this. Exactly the type of thing where it. It pushes that type of agenda. But. Which is why I think it's so important to keep mentioning the American part in this like that. What the. The role that Americans are playing here. Because they are the buyers.
- [37:04]
B
Right.
- [37:05]
A
And it's different than drugs. Okay. Because. Yep, it's different than drugs.
- [37:11]
B
You're addicted to something with drugs. It's different.
- [37:13]
A
And you are. Okay. You're buying drugs. You're injecting yourself or you're smoking the. Okay, you are buying the baby. A woman was like, it's just. It's a show. It is so different. And I think people will understand that. I don't really have to, like, hone in on that. I think it's. Anyone with half a brain would understand that. But I also think that there could be perhaps a power play here too.
- [37:40]
B
Sure.
- [37:40]
A
Where, yeah, they're filling some gap of monetary loss, but also someone who's part of this ring managed to put this whole operation together. And now, look, put me in as your big dog, because look at what I got going on. And that's typically how it works in the hierarchy of cartels, particularly in CJ and G, when you're proving that you can traffic like a boss or, like, make a bunch of money and you're not getting caught for whatever you're doing, that's how you move up in the hierarchy of the cartel.
- [38:16]
B
This is. This is one thing, though, that even if you look at the most cynical aspects of the history of this, where, for example, you have intelligence that's been involved in these organizations, I've had people sitting in that seat who had to go inside the cartels and allow them to continue to do business. This is one of those hardcore red lines, though.
- [38:37]
A
Yeah.
- [38:38]
B
Like, I swear to God, if I found out that, I don't know, some CIA idiot knew this was going on and was letting this happen.
- [38:51]
A
Yeah. Because this is not like, oh, you know, get it. Getting the arms to the Contras and moving the cocaine, and this is so different. But we, Like, I don't know if that's.
- [39:00]
B
I don't. Yeah, I'm totally. Obviously, there's no proof of that at this point. But I'm saying, like, if. If I ever found that out, all the people out there who are like, dismantle these places, I'm like, well, there's your argument. Like, how could you ever. And I'm not again. They're. Hopefully they're not, but like, there, there just has to be a line somewhere. I'm sorry, that's just. It's just like this one just made me so sick. It's just made me so sick. I don't know how you can even cover this because, like, you have to see it too. Yeah, you're down there, you're talking to these people. Like, makes me sick. From my armchair.
- [39:40]
A
It's definitely not ideal, but the. When I got the tip too, I was kind of told, like, you do a good job at covering missing and murdered women. Like you do. Your reporting serves justice for, like, women and kids. And we talked about this, like, that's the goal here. That's what got me into it.
- [40:00]
B
Yeah.
- [40:02]
A
So, yeah, I always say this, but I choose to do this so it doesn't matter how it affects me because at the end of the day, what these women are going through is a hundred million times worse than me just seeing it and reporting on it and maybe being in a risky environment to gather the elements of the story. But they deserve a voice and they deserve people to fight for justice for them. And if I can in some way be the messenger to ensure that. That people start. Take. The people who need to take the action start to take that action. Great. That's the goal. And I know that you always kind of met me about like, well, Karen, you need to like, value your life. Don't die, Be careful. Yes, I know that. But at the same time, look at what the fuck is going on. And if I don't talk about it, and it means, okay, I'm going to be in danger if I have to, you know, in order to do this. So what?
- [41:00]
B
Well, it's very brave of you, but also.
- [41:03]
A
No, it's not. It's just very human. I just. It, It's. I think that most people would do the same thing. I just go and do it. It's.
- [41:12]
B
I don't think most people would do the same thing. Just.
- [41:14]
A
No, I think people do agree, though, if they, if they had the capacity, whether that's like mental, physical, whatever it is, and a low fear threshold in order to try to help this matter, they would.
- [41:28]
B
I think you're giving a lot of people credit that I hope they could live up to, but I'm not sure if they would because you go down into the belly of the beast with it and that, you know, like, you mentioned going down there now. I mean, you said it, not me, but you are going down there and.
- [41:43]
A
And it's not safe right now.
- [41:45]
B
It's not safe. The people that you said you could call within law enforcement at Juarez just all got fucking, you know, night of the long knives down there. What kind of. With. Without revealing security details or something like that. But, like, are you taking some security precautions?
- [42:03]
A
Yes, of course. Okay. Yeah, I wouldn't. This is not something that I would. For lack of better words, raw dog. Like, I have with previous assignments where I just, like, go into the belly of the beast and I'm like, hope for the best. My mom protects me from above, but. And like, oh, you know, I'll be in at this time, and I should be out at this time. If not, call this number to whoever. Right. But this is a situation where. Because the stakes are so high in terms of the story, and it's a very dangerous region. Yeah. I'm taking security precautions. The whole team, like, it's very much.
- [42:43]
B
Oh, you're going on with the team, too?
- [42:45]
A
Yeah, yeah. We're not doing this alone anymore. We can't. And that's also partly thanks to you because, you know, there's more exposure now. So I can't just go, like, incognito anymore because the people who are in these regions who may be involved in it or who know about it, they watch my. So I. I don't want to take that risk because also, like, another thing. And when we talk about the valuing the life, like, then if I die or something happens to me, then I can't do the job.
- [43:20]
B
Right.
- [43:20]
A
So that defeats.
- [43:21]
B
That's what I'm saying. That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm like, you're doing. And you. Like, you and I were talking off camera in generalizations about stuff, so I think this is okay to say. But, like, yeah, you're doing a great job, and that's awesome. And like, even since the first time you were here, we recorded for the first time in October 2024. We put it out in January, but that was almost a year ago now. Like, you've come such a long way with the scope of things you're reporting on and the sourcing and the level and the types of stories, obviously, that you're breaking, which is amazing.
- [43:55]
A
Thanks.
- [43:55]
B
But, like, you are, and I'm sure you already have, but you are going to run into situations sometimes where perhaps because of your hard work, you get access to some.
- [44:08]
A
To shit that I wish I didn't know, of course.
- [44:11]
B
And sometimes, as much as it might be, like, the biggest story ever, and it could also Even help some people. It's the kind of thing where you have to make some long term calls. Not just for your own ability to still be alive and report on things that matter like you are right now, but also for, you know, sometimes you report on things and I'll just use an old example like El Chapo. He gets reported on, then he gets caught and it's like, oh, El Chapo's gone. Well now you made a fucking power vacuum and it's a fucking mess.
- [44:43]
A
Yes.
- [44:43]
B
You know what I mean? So, and that's the shitty reality. It's like, you don't. We're not dealing with a situation where the biggest story you look at is like, oh, I can cut off the head of the snake. There's 40 heads to the snake.
- [44:55]
A
Yeah.
- [44:55]
B
So what I'm saying is long winded way of saying, like, you're in a tough position where once in a while you may have to like say, hey, if I wanted to like poke the bear on this thing, I could, but I'm gonna pass on this because it's better to live another day and actually like kill the other 10 bears over here with stories that I'll be alive to tell you. See what I'm saying?
- [45:17]
A
And I fully agree because there are things, and we've talked about this, that I've held off on reporting.
- [45:21]
B
Yes.
- [45:23]
A
And if truth be told, if I had reported on some of those things that I held off on and I something happened to me because of it, then I wouldn't be able to report on this story where the stakes are really high and the collateral is really bad.
- [45:37]
B
That's exactly right.
- [45:38]
A
So this is so much more important. Right. This is, this is the mission where it's, okay, I've received some information because I've managed to embed myself with the right people and gain trust on all sides here and now the public can be informed about what's going on so that, like I said, the right people in power can do something to seek justice. Because that's the, that's the goal here. Right. You have to tell the story for people to care. Tell people why they should care. And I think that this is one of those stories, like when I'm generally reporting on murdered women internationally, like there's this level of empathy and compassion that we're getting from the American audience because the majority of my audience is American, but it's, it's very fleeting. But then there will be like a case that, like this, that it really does tug on the heartstrings because it's like people now understand even though this isn't happening in my backyard, like as a human being, these are babies, these are young mothers, and these are American buyers.
- [46:55]
B
Yeah, my backyard's buying it.
- [46:57]
A
Yeah. My backyard is part of this operation, funding it. And so to me, when I look at this story as a whole, of course the people like evil villain number one is the ring that is running this operation and started this evil villain number two, the people buying it, buying the babies.
- [47:21]
B
I agree.
- [47:22]
A
And I, and I just see, I hate having to like go into depth with stories like these because then there ends up being some speculation. But I still, like, I don't get too in the weeds to impact my reporting at all.
- [47:37]
B
What do you mean by, by that?
- [47:38]
A
Like there's speculation with like, I start to think about what could be going on and stuff. But I think that because of the knowledge that I have in terms of like this whole realm of, of issues, I, I can, my intuition is pretty good. So I can understand like what could be the reality of this situation. I feel like I'm speaking in code to you right now.
- [48:01]
B
No, no, it's fine. I understand.
- [48:02]
A
So like, for example, in this case, I, I don't think that the buyers are unaware of where these babies are coming from. And I just can't like seem to hit that home enough because that's, I feel like there needs to be American eyes on this.
- [48:21]
B
Yeah. If you're, especially once you told me what the pricing is here and everything and the fact that there's pricing on it. If you're getting handed an infant from some dude in a suit and handing them a hundred thousand dollars and it's, and the infant has fake paperwork, you, you know, you know everything. You, you know, even if you don't know exactly, you know, you know, it.
- [48:44]
A
Doesn'T take a genius to get like a weird feeling.
- [48:47]
B
Yep. Your gut. There's no way even people with a room temperature iq, like, you know, there's just, there's no way. You don't. That's what makes it sick.
- [48:57]
A
That's why I have a hard time believing. And when I first broke this story, I talked about that this could be illegal adoption, this could be human trafficking. That my source said, you know, some of these people receiving the babies may not know. Now in my reporting, you know, I went through all of that. But then when you sit with the story, like your perception changes on a story, especially of this high stake when you first break it versus when you sit with it and really start to think about it and this is the kind of story that like keeps you up at night. Right. You're just constantly like thinking about it and thinking what could be going on. And the more that I thought about it and continue to think about it, I'm just like, I don't think that these kids, that these babies are going to a well meaning family who wants to expand their family and has been like dying to have a baby and like went through any means possible. I mean sure, I know that some of the high volume international countries that were like top providers of like international adoption for the US cracked down on their adoption laws. And so parents who want to adopt, it's become harder for them.
- [50:12]
B
Yes.
- [50:14]
A
But I just don't think that these are the people who are. I don't know. I don't know.
- [50:20]
B
So it's. And, and that, that makes it, if that is the case and, and that speculation is even mostly correct. It makes it a pure productized infant human trafficking operation that on the other end includes the worst things, whether it be organ harvesting like we talked about earlier, or even sicker twisted like that to where these children probably don't even live past infancy and those that do wish they wouldn't. That's what we're talking about.
- [50:53]
A
Yeah. And it's only been going on for a few months, so it's hard to know like how long these babies are surviving after.
- [51:01]
B
Do you have plans to try when you are down in Juarez, any leads even to try to privately get a hold of potentially family of potential victims of this?
- [51:16]
A
Yeah, but if it means putting them in danger, I won't do it.
- [51:19]
B
You won't do it?
- [51:19]
A
Even if it's like, oh, this really added to the story and it really gave context. I won't do that. Because imagine like you've already been through enough.
- [51:27]
B
Yeah. 100. I, I don't, I don't blame those people at all. They're, they're in a situation where anyone apparently in the government that would have helped them is now gone.
- [51:37]
A
Yeah.
- [51:37]
B
And that's how, and that's a, that's just a, that's a sign to them being told shut the up. If they didn't already know that already. They live in a country that's war torn apart by these cartels and effectively run by them at every level. And they have no economic means. They had one victim in the family. Like if the average family is another five people, are they like, well all five of us want to die too? I mean it's people out there like, oh, how couldn't you say something, dude, Put yourself in their shoes. It's not.
- [52:08]
A
See in this, with this type of story, unless someone seeks me out and wants to talk, I won't push for it. Because also I don't like. And a lot of journalists disagree with this and don't operate the same way. I don't care. I don't like having to convince someone, especially someone who's been a victim, to interview with me or to give the story. I don't think it's ethical.
- [52:32]
B
You don't think it's ethical?
- [52:33]
A
No, because you're already, you know, you're kind of. And I can be very like convincing with some people. It's like, come on, just tell me or let's talk or we can talk. But I don't want to do that to someone who is already like in a vulnerable position and then it could make life worse for them. I've learned like a very good lesson with this type of thing over the course of the last few years, which is like, how do I say it? Like, even if you think that you can have a positive impact with whatever you're doing or whoever you're talking to, you still have to consider that it could have a negative impact.
- [53:13]
B
That's right.
- [53:14]
A
And if that outweighs the potential positive impact, it's better off just to stay out of it.
- [53:20]
B
Where it gets weird. Where it gets really weird. From like an ethical perspective, if we're talking about this is like, I can't even imagine I have an answer to this question if I were you. But like trade offs in that position. Meaning, okay, if I talk to this family, the victim or whatever, there's an. I hate that we have to talk like this, but just bear with me. There's an x percent chance that something really bad could happen to them as a result of them talking. But if I do it, there's a y percent chance that this story blows the up. Forget if that helps my career or not. I'm not talking about it.
- [54:00]
A
Yeah, I'm saying for like the actual understanding.
- [54:03]
B
And then potentially it saves, you know, Z number of future victims, which is a large number and puts a, puts a cap on this.
- [54:11]
A
It's like, no, the former still outweighs it because I was taught by like a journalist that I highly respect. If it impacts the person's livelihood or life, don't do it.
- [54:25]
B
Can't.
- [54:26]
A
And I.
- [54:27]
B
Tough for me to argue with that.
- [54:28]
A
I'll, I'll stand my ground on that. With a criminal or a politician, will I be like Come on, tell me. Or.
- [54:34]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's different. Yeah, them.
- [54:36]
A
But if it's like a. But in this case, if it means that I'm, you know, their livelihood or their life is at risk, I won't do it. Even if it means like, oh, saving other people. I. I'm not gonna get someone to play Jesus here. Like, this is not. No, we're not doing that. I. I would never want to put someone in that position because I don't want to. Like, I don't want something bad to happen to them. Second of all, selfishly. Selfishly, yeah. I would. I would feel horrible forever and ever and would not be able to live with that if that happened. There's just no way. Even if it meant like, oh, well, we saved 20 women, 20 pregnant women. Maybe think about the 1, 100. Because that was like completely my fault. So I would just never do that in the first place. I don't think it's ethical at all.
- [55:29]
B
Are you?
- [55:30]
A
Well, that's why I actually don't like when some journalists will, like, go into these types of hostile environments and pay these types of people to talk to them. I've never paid for interview because first of all, I don't want people to be like, working, like, putting on a show. And second of all, I think that for a lot of these people, yes, money is a very appetizing incentive. Like, it's something that they need. And I think that that's a bit exploitative on the journalist side. I would never do that. It's like, if you're not going to talk to me for free because you want to get your story across, it's done. So, yeah, could I probably go and find family members of these victims and try to convince them to talk with me or hand them a couple bills and say, talk to me? They would probably do it. I actually have no doubt that they probably would. I would not do that.
- [56:27]
B
What if. What if you just. This is probably too simplistic to look at it, but if you made him an anonymous source, meaning you didn't say, like, Like, I don't even know what effect that would have, though, if you couldn't say it's a family of a victim. You know what I mean?
- [56:40]
A
Well, see, like with anonymous sources, these are people who still understand, like, all the people that I've spoken to anonymously, they still understand that there's somewhat of a risk. And also I have been very good at protecting these sources. Right. But because this is such a vulnerable and like, it's a Victim. I wouldn't even want to take that chance with them. And also, when I'm talking to criminals or people within high levels of government who are giving me anonymous information, they're not gonna go and be like, yeah, yeah, I talked to this journalist and told it. Right. But these people might. Yeah, these people might trust the wrong person. And so it's not even about trusting myself at that point. It's, do I even trust you to protect yourself after we do this? I don't know. There's a lot of elements that go.
- [57:33]
B
There's heavy questions you got to ask at every layer. There's not like a moment where you're like, well, I can get.
- [57:38]
A
Not easy. Yeah, not easy.
- [57:41]
B
You. Not even you. I. I would say the. To the different sources in the know who you speak with. Are. Are they concerned about a copycat syndrome happening here with other cartels?
- [57:55]
A
Oh, we haven't even. I haven't even talked about that. Like a. I have no idea. I don't think so. I would hope not. But I also didn't think that this would ever happen in the first place, but.
- [58:06]
B
Well, yeah, I mean, that's a good question. This is one scenario where this becomes.
- [58:10]
A
One of their means of.
- [58:13]
B
I mean, that would be the worst case scenario. You would hope that this would be like the one scenario that was like Al Qaeda with isis, where Al Qaeda was like, yo, we're not that bad. You know what I mean? We're like. Sinalo is like, all right, listen, we do fentanyl. We don't.
- [58:27]
A
But we're not doing all that.
- [58:29]
B
We're not doing that. Like, you would hope that this might be the one place it is, but unfortunately, all of these cartels have a track record of if it's like, you know, the quote, if it bleeds, it leads. Find another one where it says if it pays, it weighs, or whatever. Like, they're. They're gonna. They're gonna follow money, and if they see something like this making millions of.
- [58:50]
A
Dollars, they're gonna follow suit.
- [58:53]
B
Yeah.
- [58:53]
A
I think that's why they're. They're trying to nip this in the butt right now. Like, the investigate like it's. There are people who are trying to put a stop to this immediately before it gets to that point. I would hope that it doesn't. But what the do. I know. I never thought that they'd be doing this in the first place.
- [59:14]
B
Why? All right, this is going to get to some politicization or whatever here, but even though this is brand new, it is Brandly sick on every level. Now that it is a story and clearly based on what you've been able to say publicly, what you've reported on publicly, and I'll say this, what I've heard from you privately very clearly is unfortunately legit and has legs. Why hasn't like Trump of all people who's declared the cartels terror organizations, why has he not talked about this yet? Or does. Or is this even at his desk yet? I mean I would think this would be like the, he'd be tweeting up a storm about this. This is the ultimate like do you see why we gotta kill all these people? Kind of referring to the cartels kind of moment. Like what, why has that not happened? You reported this what, a week and a half ago? Something like that.
- [60:20]
A
This is brand new, right? I, I just broke this story and I think that for a bit this was pretty need to know. I would not be surprised if in the near future that there is, the administration makes some comments about it and, and they, whether they know about it already or not. Unclear, can't speak to that. Yeah, but that's certainly going to be coming and I think that the reaction is going to be really interesting because in an ideal world, what I hope to see is all right, we're going to collaborate to dismantle this ring and then we're going to go after the Americans who were funding this. Unfortunately, I have a bit of a feeling that there may not be a hard push on the American buyers. I just feel like for some reason.
- [61:24]
B
Why do you feel that way?
- [61:25]
A
I don't know, I, I feel like they might miss the mark a bit with that. And like, to preface, I'm always critical of like any, you know, politicians or how policy is run. I just think that it would be like this, this massive upset and I'm maybe I'm just worried because also with these types of stories I, I start to really think deeply and stuff like that and I'm like, I hope that whoever is buying these babies also faces whatever.
- [62:03]
B
The firing squad to start prosecution.
- [62:05]
A
Yeah. From the U. S. Administration. And I mean at the same time, to be fair, there has been like somewhat of a crackdown on Americans who are profiting off of or funding the cartels. Like we saw it recently. I think we talked about this in the last episode that we shot together about that American family from Idaho who was buying the stolen crude oil. Yeah. So then boom, they're like facing justice system. Great.
- [62:32]
B
That's oil though. I know these are, these are people.
- [62:36]
A
Yes. And I mean to me the, these charges would look like aiding and abetting and like literally cooperating with a terrorist organization. Like if you are an American and you bought this baby, your court case.
- [62:57]
B
Should reflect exactly what you 100%. And if you are a part of an organization that's doing the trafficking, it's even on a whole another level, meaning on, on, on the American side here. Because I think it was egg call to Rome when he was in here. It was, it was very broad. I want to try to, if I remember some of this incorrectly, people put it in the comments and I'll, I'll draw attention to it. But he was saying the largest black market in the United States is human trafficking, which includes everything and includes, you know, I mean human trafficking is human trafficking but you know, more low level prostitution and things like that. But it also graduates all the way up to the sickest things like this of which he was saying he's like, like, why are we not talking about the fact that that stuff is way more rampant than we're comfortable talking about at this at dinner parties? Like why are we not talking about that at law enforcement centers as much? Why are we not doing something about that? Because he's like, to your point as well, he's like a lot of the people on the other ends of these say they're not from other countries. Sometimes they are, but like a lot of times it's people that live in this country.
- [64:08]
A
Yes, yes.
- [64:09]
B
And that are from here and were born here.
- [64:11]
A
But also this is a very scary topic. And you want to know, it's funny, for the longest time people asked me a lot, why don't you cover the human trafficking stuff? And I actually said for a really long time I was like, I'm never going to cover human trafficking.
- [64:24]
B
Why'd you say never?
- [64:25]
A
Scared. It's scary. Like it runs so high. There's always so many people involved. The operations are typically like very airtight, professional and there's so much money involved that I was like, I'm worried that if I do something like this that this is where I would face some sort of like violent retaliation or like I would face threats. So when this story came to me, I was like, I guess never say never.
- [64:57]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, and it's pretty, it's brave you to do it, but it's, someone does have to do it and, and has to draw attention to this stuff. And that's what I'm saying. Unfortunately, it takes the most salacious, worst examples really hitting home for the entire Scab to be opened up, you know, and so all these other things that are happening as well in the human trafficking department that involve the cartels and more specifically, though, involve people here on the other end running it and buying it and doing that in order to draw more attention that you have to do something that makes people go, whoa, whoa. Like, that's, that's here.
- [65:36]
A
I know.
- [65:37]
B
Maybe something like this if properly bullhorned. And we're doing our best here to start that, you know, maybe that, that, that could draw the attention. I just. The worst part about human trafficking is to me. Or what. I mean, there's a lot of worst parts, but one of the worst parts is the pure psychological capture that legitimately happens to the victim. So in this case, an infant actually isn't a good example. I'm talking about people who are older and can talk and, you know, whether that be an older child or even an adults.
- [66:13]
A
Yeah.
- [66:13]
B
And it's like, you know, for example, how could someone get on a commercial flight with their trafficker and not say something to someone because they're completely psychologically brainwashed and tortured and threatened under the control of that person who is a sick, total sociopath to the point that they can be emotionless and not react and seem like everything's cool, that they will get on that flight and pretend that they're the wife or the daughter or something and go along with it. And I don't think people appreciate enough how. How much that can happen to anybody. This isn't like, you know, well, more. Some people are going to be more likely. No. Like, if you get in that type of situation and they know how to threaten you and poke just the right buttons to get you to the point of absolute fear and surrender, that's what's going to happen. And unfortunately, it happens all the time in America.
- [67:06]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's very easy to invoke fear in someone who's emotionally vulnerable and take complete control of that person. I mean, even you think about it like, a good example of this would be like in your personal life, if you think of any, like, sort of toxic relationship you've had, whether that's romantic or friendly or with your family members, where it's like, this person scares me and I hide things from them and I don't know what to do. And when I'm around them, it's like you freeze. Right. But why do you keep that person in your life? Because you're being, like, emotionally manipulated. So imagine someone, you. You include drugs in that mix. You include Money. You include sex. You know, the whole gauntlet of. Of what encapsulates human trafficking. And it's run like a business. And then also violence. How do you expect people to get out of that or to ask for help? Because these people are being told that you asked for help. I am all knowing, and I will you up and your family.
- [68:04]
B
And you know what? Really? Really. And you're fighting the winds of this right now with any story, let alone this one. What really doesn't help right now is when you have a story like Epstein so out in the open. I know where, you know, he was just his own sadistic. And all the people who hung out with him, they're fine. Don't worry about it. And his victims, who. Many of whom are just incredibly brave and have spoken out for years about this, In. In many cases, there's a lot of women who've spoken out for years. They continue to. And it's. It's sick because it feels like they're screaming into an abyss. And yet we are all also aware of it. We all hear it.
- [68:48]
A
It.
- [68:48]
B
Like, everyone knows the Epstein story. We know it's all.
- [68:51]
A
But it's literally gone to a point where people are desensitized by it.
- [68:53]
B
Exactly. That's my point. And it's like, you're desensitized not only by what happened because you've talked about it so many times that it's like, oh, yeah, right, the guy that raped women and. And little girls. Yeah, like, that's sick that that even gets to that point for some people. But it's also like, you're desensitized by the lack of justice, and you're like, oh, I guess if you're powerful enough.
- [69:16]
A
That'S just how it works.
- [69:17]
B
Just how it works.
- [69:19]
A
Yeah. Which is another reason why, like, I was like, I'm never covering this because it will not change anything. If anything, it will just do harm because people are like, yeah, we know it happens. It's scary. It's really bad, but there's no justice that comes of it. The people who are involved in it run really high up the food chain.
- [69:44]
B
Yeah.
- [69:45]
A
What is little old me and you gonna do about that?
- [69:48]
B
Now that you have begun to. Begun to cover this story, though, and. And really look deeply on this, have you, in the course of your journalism and reporting, learned more about the other types of. Of human trafficking tactics that are actively being used by the cartels in general, be it CJNG or other ones? Like, what other?
- [70:14]
A
Well, a lot of it, to be honest. A lot of it is mostly like, prostitution, and then, like, kind of enslaved prostitution is what I would call it. I don't know if that's.
- [70:23]
B
That's nice.
- [70:24]
A
You always laugh at the worst in sleep.
- [70:28]
B
It's just like we're throwing around these terms, like, it's completely demonetized. Like, no, that's fine. I'm demonetizing this episode myself. Like, YouTube's not going to. I will demonetize. It's like, it's sensitive subject matter, but it's like, oh, enslaved prostitution. That's better. Like, that's. That. That's almost like, what. Where we're at with this, there's a.
- [70:48]
A
Really good series on Netflix. It was done by a production company run by two female journalists, and it's called Zona Divas. And it basically takes you through how women were being brought into Mexico by some really powerful businessmen with, like, you know, criminals and synonymous. Right? And then they're being brought in from, like, Venezuela, Colombia into Mexico to work as prostitutes. They had, to, quote, unquote, pay their debt, which obviously never disappeared because they were, like, being offered work. So it was like, hey, you want to come and make a bunch of money? We'll pay for your flight, we'll pay for your accommodation. You start working as a prostitute, you pay us that back. But obviously, over the course of that period, you're incurring more and more debt. And then these. A lot of these women kind of started to band together and they wanted to go independent. Then they were turning up dead. And so this. To really understand, I think, how this human trafficking works, starting all the way from South America up into, you know, Central North America, you know, the whole gauntlet. That's a really good series. And it was done by some incredibly reputable journalists that I really appreciate. Again, Zona Divas. And that was the name of the page where you would go and solicit these prostitutes. It was shut down, but it still exists under the name VIP Boutique.
- [72:18]
B
VIP Boutique.
- [72:21]
A
Bougie. Right.
- [72:23]
B
I mean, it's modern day, even more up. Indentured servitude. That's what they're doing.
- [72:28]
A
Yeah.
- [72:29]
B
You know the history of that. Like, this is. This is worse, but same concept.
- [72:33]
A
I. I have, like, a big problem with this type of stuff because I feel like this is, like, hot take, but in, like, the us, Canada, whatever, there's been, like, this movement to really be like, sex work is empowering and freeing for women. But then when you're in my line of work and you're seeing, like, Just how enslaving it is. It's really hard for me to like, to buy that notion because these women are like dying for it. They're being impregnated. They're like, forcefully. They're being beaten up. They're literally like their physical health completely deteriorates. It is actually the most complete opposite from empowering in any sense. And so I always kind of want to bring that up when I talk about this because, yeah, like, I don't know, it just bothers me. So the, the human trafficking and the sex trafficking, this has always been a thing. And these girls are brought into Mexico from like, Colombia, Venezuela are very top countries for that. Brazil. And then a lot of them are even sent into the U. S. A lot of them work in Mexico city. A lot of them work in border towns like Tijuana. You'll see Right. Go by the Hong Kong. And then, like I said, they have to pay this debt. They're really not making much money. And then if they want, like what this series shows is these crazy. This. These women who tried to go independent because they were making money. You know, they had their own clientele list. The men in charge were like, killer. She's done. She's done. And most of these guys who are responsible for that, they're free.
- [74:27]
B
That's the least surprising part of your story, sadly. But, you know, I believe in your freedom to make decisions about your life, and I believe in free speech very strongly. Right.
- [74:45]
A
Makes two of us.
- [74:46]
B
Okay. So I think if you want to go start an only fans or if you want to be a porn star, you should be allowed to do that. And if you want to go, which by the way, there's a whole obviously dark side, the porn industry, where it's literally human trafficking, but so bad. Let's see, let's focus on the not side of that where someone just freely decides to do that and, you know, whatever, and you want to sexualize yourself online and other people are free to watch that. It's part of free speech. It's a negative. But, you know, I. I think you can't draw the line anywhere with free speech is my point. That's fine. That said, though, you mentioned a few minutes ago in another context, desensitization that happens in society and then how other things carry the ball downhill from that. Yeah, especially let's like, let's pick on only fans and that whole culture and whatever.
- [75:47]
A
I hate that.
- [75:48]
B
Yeah. I've never been on it the. And I never will go on it. I don't Understand it. I don't understand how a guy can go on that and think that. That there's any sort of connection with this person. But then again, there's guys who are falling in love with AIs. So, yeah, I mean, you know, I. I guess whatever. Whatever floats your boat. But that, that culture and that desensitization plays into the lack of, I guess, what's the word? Like the. The lack of outcry. And, you know, we need to solve this type of situation that pervades hearing about even trafficked prostitution rings and stuff like that. People are like, oh, yeah, well, you know, like there's. You see what I'm saying? There's some sort of, like, desensitized tie that kind of turns people's brains off where they don't realize just how serious that stuff is because they're so used to just seeing acid titties online.
- [76:49]
A
And my, like, opinion about this, outside of being Katarina the journalist, but just Katarina is I think that that overt open sexualization and perversion has, like, further enforced this notion that, like, women are sexual objects. And, like, if you go to a strip club in Mexico City and these girls are, like, giving blow jobs, it's like, like, yeah, who cares? There is no sense of understanding of where that all started and why that's happening. Because also, we're just constantly being fed sex all the time. And it's just, like, so blatant. Like, I open social media, and first of all, I'm always getting comments. I will literally report on something like this, and someone will have the audacity to comment and be like, do you have an only fans or when's the only fans coming? Yeah, so that's what you get reduced to as a woman anyways. Okay, so first of all, slap in the face. But then second of all, it's like you're just constantly being fed sex in a way that it's like you don't. It's not even natural anymore. It doesn't make sense. And then that, I think, perpetuates violence. This is like, obviously just. This is outside of scope of my reporting, but I've seen it too, in my reporting and in talking with women who are victims of sex trafficking. Yeah, whatever. Forced sex labor, whatever it is that they're doing. And none of them are happy. And I think a lot of people, men, fail to understand that she does not want to be there. I can literally guarantee you that. That even if she tells you she does, even if she's happy with your money, or, you know, makes you feel whatever type of pleasure, no woman wants to do that. I could. I could put my life on that. And I personally know people, of course, as we all do, who do only fans or have done this, whatever outside of, like the monetary gain, all negative impacts and nothing good that comes out of that. I understand. And I can understand being in a situation where you feel like that's all you can do. And I, like, I'm not vilifying any of these people, but it has completely changed the public perception of sex, sexual violence and then sex trafficking. So then when you have these women who are absolute victims to the core, they're not even being viewed as that by the public because everyone is so desensitized.
- [79:32]
B
Yeah, we. We talked a lot last time in episode 313, when you heard the second time you were here about CJNG and some of the background and the rise up there. So people want to get all that. You can go back there.
- [79:50]
A
And we talked about Sinaloa too.
- [79:51]
B
I think we did, we did. But as far as, like, all the backstory them, I don't want you to have to regurgitate the whole thing. But they are particularly alarming, not just because of the story you're now reporting, which is a whole different level, but because of the speed with which they have gathered the power and size and scope that they have. You know, we. I. I think it was with you we talked about, like, the. What was it maybe that was actually with Johnny Mitchell. Actually, we talked about the basically kill camps they have set up.
- [80:25]
A
The extermination camps. Yeah, yeah, we did talk about that.
- [80:29]
B
Okay, so you and I both.
- [80:30]
A
I'm pretty sure I don't. I've talked to so many people. Yeah, it's all blended together story where the. They tried to make it seem like these were recruitment camps, but.
- [80:40]
B
Exactly.
- [80:41]
A
Really, they were these like extermination camps where people were forced to go there. And I actually, tying this all together, would not be surprised if. If some of those camps were being used for organ harvesting. And I know that there is an NGO that's lobbying in Congress that those camps were actually being used for organ trafficking now, but let's take a break because I have to pee so, so bad.
- [81:05]
B
Okay, we'll be right back. All right, we're back. The thing I was going to ask right before we went to the break was, first of all, CJNG and Sinaloa are in like a war, right?
- [81:17]
A
No. Well, okay. It depends which faction we're talking about.
- [81:20]
B
Because all Right, let's break this down first.
- [81:22]
A
There's technically, like, three factions of the Sinalo cartel. You know, it's very fragmented at this point. But let's talk about the main ones, which is El Mayo's faction and El Chapo's faction. We've talked about this on a lot of episodes, but essentially because El Chapo's faction was. Or the Chapitos, his son's faction seemed to be really struggling with this infighting. The civil war that broke out following El Mayo's kidnapping and, you know, him landing in the US last summer, the Chapito seemed to be struggling. CG&G, Jalisconi generation cartel aligned with the Chapitos, basically saying, we're going to help you guys win this infighting. If that means then, you know, we have access to trafficking routes and whatever financial gain that they can get out of it once the war is over. To me, when I see something like this, it's telling more a story of absorption, like I said, them being like, we're gonna help you win this. And then when you do win this, you guys are C.J. and G, right? There's only one, you know, kind of head honcho left within the Chapitos faction, which is Ivan, one of El Chapo's sons. And from what I can tell, and from people who I've spoken to in the US Government, that is the guy that they want to get right now. Like, if we were to put, you know, make a list of all the most wanted, whether that's, you know, El Mencho, Ivan, Archibaldo, Ryan, Wedding, whoever it is, I would say IBAN is the top of their list, because that means that they have essentially fully dismantled the Sinaloa cartel. Now, the issue with that, and I keep going over this, is that means that CG&G will essentially have power, or at least this is how I foresee it in Sinaloa. CG&G right now, I would say, has power over all of the Mexican states. Sinalo was a bit iffy, right? Because it's. It's being called publicly an alliance. And we have seen videos, and I'm being sent stuff all the time where you see these CJNG guys fighting alongside the Chapitos in the mountains. You know, they're shooting and fighting alongside. Mm. They're. They're going after Mayo's faction. They're working together. But it seems as though this. There's obviously a broader agenda here, and that's to completely absorb that, that the Caloa Cartel, that faction of it at Least which would probably extend into all of it. And I think that this is like a perfect example of that. Like the hydra, right? You cut off one head and two more evil ones grow back. Because if that means cjng is like the all powerful cartel, knowing just how violent they are, that's a very, very scary future for Mexico and for any, like, innocent people who have to live amongst this. Now, I'm sure a lot of people would say, and I understand this is. Well, when there is total control and there's no fighting over territory, we're living in peace. Yes, but that doesn't take away from the fact that there's still so much violence going on and there are so many people who are being targeted by the very cartel that is in power.
- [84:44]
B
At the same time that this is all going on, though, because, like, people, sometimes. I'll speak for myself too. We get lost in when we talk about El Chapo's sons because there's multiple scenarios going on. Obviously. El Chapo is in adx. His other son o video is in U. S. Custody. And.
- [85:02]
A
And he's cooperating.
- [85:04]
B
He's cooperating. He is allegedly the guy who helped put together the Almayo sting.
- [85:10]
A
Yep.
- [85:11]
B
Right. But you have free another son, Yvonne, who's in the middle of this whole hot war, whatever you want to call it. Ovidio and Yvonne, like, what's. Obviously they're not in communication, I guess, because he's in prison. But what's the. Are they coming at it from different angles or are they both working on the same kind of team here?
- [85:35]
A
I'm sure they're working on the same team.
- [85:36]
B
Okay.
- [85:39]
A
I don't know. I don't talk to Obido and Ivan that often, but I'm not exactly sure what it looks like. I know that Ivan is essentially constantly on the run. Like, I. I don't think his life is. Is great right now. Obidio is openly cooperating, and then like 17 of his family members were let into the U.S. remember we spoke about that last time, which I thought was so ridiculous. Negotiating with terrorists. Right.
- [86:12]
B
What. What is literally no now, but like, what, what is. What is the car like? What are the cartels back in Mexico think of his cooperation? Do they think it's a part of.
- [86:21]
A
He's a rat. Yeah, he's a. And he's a rat. Yeah, of course.
- [86:24]
B
But they support Yvonne even though that's his brother and they get along well.
- [86:28]
A
Anyone who's under the Chapitos faction is going to just continue to work for whatever faction they Were already under, but.
- [86:33]
B
I think they're working for rats.
- [86:35]
A
Yeah. I mean, there's not going to be any respect for that. And who knows what Ivan is telling the. These guys? Right?
- [86:42]
B
Well, that's also. You think about it. If anyone were ripe to be recruited into another faction, it'd be the guys that are a little on edge. Yeah.
- [86:55]
A
Yeah. And not to mention one of the individuals who was put in charge from cj who was put in charge of this whole alliance. His. He goes by El Jardinero, the gardener. I'm not sure if I spoke about this last time. You didn't, but he basically, they. They call him El Jardinero because he's like, to make the mountains flourish and, you know, the whole thing. But he has a very loyal following within cjng. And so this is, I think, why their absorption of power also works very well. Because you see, like, this really strong sense of loyalty and like, I don't know, like, patriotism for the leaders of cjng. And of course, you see that for on mental, but then you also see it for, like, right hand. So, like, El Jadinero is one of them. He has a very loyal and strong following to him. And so this is also a very powerful and violent person who now is in charge of this alliance and would likely spearhead whatever this alliance could potentially eventually turn into. But I think that when it comes to, like, the respect for Obedio, I mean, just look at any criminal landscape, no one is going to support someone like that.
- [88:11]
B
What you would think. Yeah.
- [88:13]
A
And I think that's why his family was able to come into the States, because if they stayed there, they would be dead. I mean, look at El Mayo. He's saying, I'm not talking. I'm not talking, because he has a lot more to lose. He's got a bunch of family in. In Mexico still.
- [88:27]
B
What's the latest on his case?
- [88:29]
A
Elmayo, that. That he. I think. Oh, he pleaded guilty to counts of drug trafficking. Don't know the exact ones. I think it was, like, two counts.
- [88:39]
B
Yeah. We can pull it up. You.
- [88:40]
A
You can pull up the exact details of it, but pled guilty to that. His lawyer publicly said that he's not going to be talking. He's not going to be giving any names. Like, El is not going to be cooperating. And the thing about Mayo is he actually always was known as, like, this, like, man of his word, like. Like traditional, like, values, so. Values, like, you know, in the landscape of what we're talking about.
- [89:08]
B
It's just funny.
- [89:09]
A
I know it is because it doesn't add up. Right.
- [89:11]
B
Exactly.
- [89:13]
A
But he. Yeah. He's saying he's not going to talk. Do I believe that? I don't know. And a lot of people have been asking me this lately, and it almost just seems impossible for him to not talk. Let's see. No. Can you search up El Mayo, please? Deal Plea.
- [89:37]
B
Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Co founder of Sinlo Cartel, Ismail Ishmael El Miles Ambara Garcia pleads guilty to engaging in a continuing criminal enterprise and racketeering. This is August 25, 2025 from thejustice.gov of Ismail Zambada Garcia, also known as El Mayo, 75, of Calo, Mexico, pleaded guilty today to being a principal leader of a continuing criminal enterprise enterprise, the Sinaloa Cartel. The cartel, one of the most violent and powerful drug trafficking organizations in the world. In addition to a racketeer influence and corrupt organization RICO charge. The foreign terrorist. This foreign terrorist committed horrific crimes against the American people. He will now pay for those crimes by spending the rest of his life behind bars in an American prison, said Attorney General Pamela Bondi. Today marks a crucial victory in President Trump's ongoing fight to completely eliminate foreign terrorist organizations and protect American citizens from deadly drugs and violence. Today's plea is a proud moment for the FBI and its partners as the founders of a notoriously violent drug trafficking organization, one that engages in an array of illegal activity, including murder and corruption, face the consequences of their actions, said FBI Director Keshe Baton.
- [90:50]
A
Yeah, so something really important to note here is that he's facing life, right?
- [90:55]
B
Yeah.
- [90:57]
A
Mandatory minimum or whatever it is.
- [90:58]
B
He's not looking too good either, so.
- [91:00]
A
Yeah, yeah. Oh, don't put that in.
- [91:03]
B
No, it's. It's all right.
- [91:05]
A
That's fine. So he was kidnapped and brought to the US So he was not sent to the US under the U. S. Mexico extradition treaty. That treaty exists to essentially extradite criminals, Mexican national criminals who have committed crimes against the Americans. Like it said in that press release. Right. None of these fugitive transfers. So let's talk about El Mayo. It was obviously a kidnapping. Then there was a bunch of guys who were transferred in January that included Caro Quintero, who was accused of killing DEA agent Kiki Camarena. And then just most recently, a week or two ago, 26 guys. Right. Modern day guys. Not. You're not talking about the old capos anymore. All of these people were sent to the US without the extradition treaty paperwork. The extra. Extradition treaty paperwork and the agreement essentially The. The crux of it is to avoid the death penalty. So none of these guys, if they're being extradited, they. The death penalty is off the table. Why? This is a rhetorical question that I'm going to answer. Why were all of these individuals sent to the US to face the justice system, not under the extradition treaty, and yet none of them are getting the death penalty. Because the US Is looking for information. They don't want these guys dead. Because when Caro Quintero was sent to the U.S. i was like, I very openly said, he's not getting the death penalty, even though he could have, because they weren't sent under the death penalty. And I had people say, of course he's gonna get the injection. Of course he's getting the death penalty. Why would you do that? Like, this is an oracle of information. Yeah, Absolutely not. And then it was. It came out just a few weeks ago. None of these guys are getting the death penalty. Most of them are getting life. And that's so much better, right? And then obedio. He's probably only gonna get like 10 years or something.
- [93:15]
B
Now what happens at the end of those 10 years? Is he gonna stay here in the U.S. yeah.
- [93:20]
A
Yeah. You think Buddy's gonna go on back to and live it up?
- [93:25]
B
So we're gonna let him stay here. El Chapo's son, He's going to walk out of prison. It's going to live in Westchester County, New York. I don't know if that's where he's going to live.
- [93:35]
A
I'm getting more like Riverside, California vibes.
- [93:38]
B
So we're just going to let that happen?
- [93:40]
A
Probably. I mean, you guys let his family in. I think 17.
- [93:44]
B
I can't say, you guys, because you're Canadian, you're here as our guest. That's nuts. You would think they'd deport his ass and just let the wolves have him.
- [93:58]
A
Not if he gave them a bunch of invaluable information.
- [94:00]
B
If he gives them a bunch of invaluable information. Congratulations. Your prizes. You don't get life in prison. Now figure it the out.
- [94:08]
A
Like, well, what did you say last time? Crack a few eggs to get the shells.
- [94:11]
B
Crack a few eggs to make an omelette. But I'm saying the omelet's already made. We already made the omelet. You got your 10 years. You get to be out. Go, run, be free.
- [94:21]
A
The.
- [94:22]
B
You know, like in the movies when, like the guy in a prototypical movie when they, like, nurse the animal back to health. Oh, my God. Go be free. And they let it go. And then like a falcon eats it.
- [94:34]
A
Like let that happen. Yeah.
- [94:36]
B
You had your chance to run away. If the falcon got you, you're not good enough.
- [94:40]
A
Why is up.
- [94:41]
B
Why is he gonna live here? So his dad's already buried in adx, which I'd rather be dead than be there.
- [94:49]
A
You don't think it's nice?
- [94:52]
B
Adx? That's where they sent that guy Andy caught. Oh yeah.
- [95:00]
A
There's no like jacuzzi and golf carts?
- [95:05]
B
I don't think so.
- [95:07]
A
Okay, so listen, this is where this is. This becomes very problematic because President Gloia Shinbaum of Mexico has obviously given the US this wide open back door to prosecute these criminals. Right.
- [95:22]
B
Yeah. How is that relationship going.
- [95:28]
A
Publicly? Well, clearly publicly she keeps saying, we're going to maintain Mexico's sovereignty. We are not allowing any US Intervention in terms of dealing with this whole issue.
- [95:40]
B
She's like right back here.
- [95:43]
A
Exactly that.
- [95:44]
B
Yeah.
- [95:45]
A
That's horrible for a podcast. Cuz no one could.
- [95:47]
B
Who's listening if they were watching. I. I made a move like, yeah.
- [95:51]
A
Just, just park it over. Shut up and get the in that car. Hop in.
- [95:56]
B
Nothing to see here, people.
- [96:00]
A
That's what's happening. And so that's why these guys are being transferred. These, they're. They're being called fugitive transfers or expulsions. They're expelling. They're not extraditing. They're expelling these guys. That's why that's happening without the extradition treaty. But she's saying, no, no, no, no U.S. intervention. But here you can take them quick.
- [96:23]
B
Right?
- [96:23]
A
Right. Before nobody looks, you know.
- [96:25]
B
Right.
- [96:25]
A
And then also there are like, we talked about this before and it's just so shocking to me how openly those U. S. Intelligence planes are flying over Mexico.
- [96:36]
B
We don't do that. There's no U.S. intelligence planes down there, bro.
- [96:40]
A
I have it on my Twitter.
- [96:41]
B
I know. They're getting awfully careless.
- [96:47]
A
Yeah. To the point where I feel like it could disrupt the integrity of whatever investigations they're conducting. Because if intelligence.
- [96:57]
B
You think they're conducting investigations, they're not.
- [97:00]
A
The investigating type of whatever intelligence they're gathering to be handed over to the investigators.
- [97:06]
B
Got it.
- [97:07]
A
To clarify.
- [97:08]
B
Right.
- [97:09]
A
And so essentially what I think, though, when we look at how the US Is negotiating with these guys and sort of giving them, oh, have life. Give us information. We can bring your family and don't worry about it. And you know what? You obedio. We're just gonna put you in timeout.
- [97:26]
B
That's Nice.
- [97:27]
A
It's a slap in the face to any American who has obviously, like lost people or whose lives have been affected by the fentanyl crisis or like the drug crisis. On the other side of that, anyone who was a collateral victim to cartel violence in Mexico, because I think for a lot of them, I remember when Trump first declared cartels as FTPs in January, and, and I, like, I spoke to so many people and such a broad variety of people in Mexico and from across all regions, and everyone was like, finally someone is cracking down on the bad guys. And then in practice, that's not what's happening.
- [98:11]
B
It's not?
- [98:12]
A
No. I mean, not if you're negotiating with them. Do you think it is?
- [98:16]
B
All right, I, yeah, there's like a.
- [98:20]
A
Crackdown, but it's not what, like, people really like the, the substantial crackdown. They thought.
- [98:25]
B
So you think, and I'm not saying this like to be funny or over generalized, but I think they should have got the death penalty with that logic, because we're not chopping their heads off, literally, and instead we're just bringing them here and putting them in a cell. It's not the same.
- [98:41]
A
Not at all. I'm a firm believer in capital punishment.
- [98:44]
B
You are.
- [98:46]
A
Especially for someone who has done something inherently, objectively wrong and cost the lives of thousands of people. Yeah, people come at me for that all the time. They're like, katerina, how could you? How could you not? You see half the, that I've seen. And you would be a believer, too.
- [99:04]
B
No, I, I, I understand what you're saying. I just think that the jump, like in your mind, the jump, and I understand why you're cynical about it, but the jump from being so cynical is to like, like, well, they're not doing that at all because they're just bringing them here. I mean, they're, they're taking the, to defend it, they're taking the pieces off the board, they're extracting information from them and they're giving them no future with the exception of old video. I don't like that.
- [99:29]
A
But right at the same time, I do understand that it's like, okay, they're getting information, they're going to get trafficking routes and they're, you know, they're going to gather information to perhaps tackle more individuals. Truth be told, I don't think any of these efforts are going to have like, any lasting impacts.
- [99:49]
B
Why?
- [99:53]
A
Because this is like this perpetual beast that will always continue to grow and find new ways to adapt to whatever tactics, law enforcement or the US or Whoever is using against them or to try to figure them out, or to try to dismantle them or hinder their operations. Everyone always asks me, like, what's the solution? There is no solution. So.
- [100:21]
B
So why do you cover it if there's no solution? Why do you cover it if it's not going to end ever?
- [100:29]
A
Because wouldn't you also want a job, like, job with job security.
- [100:35]
B
That wouldn't be in my top 1000.
- [100:37]
A
I'm joking. That's not. Yeah, I'm being facetious. The point is that. Because then you look at the other stories that, like, are like the. The women in Juarez story.
- [100:48]
B
You feel.
- [100:49]
A
Like you can uplimit the damage that that can be. You know, there needs to be a stop to that. But in terms of being like, we are going to dismantle every single cartel that we have designated an fto, it's just like, so out of the realm.
- [101:06]
B
You know?
- [101:08]
A
And then also, like, what's the real agenda here? Because then you look at, like, Venezuela and how, like, the real target here is Maduro, and they're using this whole, like, FTO designation to really just go in and like, drone strike them.
- [101:20]
B
Yeah, it's interesting. That is interesting. I'm not saying he's a good guy, but that is an interesting backdoor tactic for sure.
- [101:31]
A
Yeah. It's so much more beyond just like what we see. It's. This is not a black and white topic. It's very nuanced. And so that's why, in terms of like, discussing solutions or like, will there be an end? That's so beyond my comprehension. And this is what I literally live and breathe all day long. So there's no way to simplify this whatsoever.
- [101:53]
B
Where is with your story? Like, where's Claudia Sheinbaum with this? I would think this is the kind of thing that she would draw attention to.
- [102:01]
A
I did not own.
- [102:02]
B
Why not?
- [102:03]
A
Because this is the type of story that she would probably bring up in her morning press conference and say, unless there's proof, unless Katarina can show me who's killing these women and who's buying them, it's not happening. Because I think that the missing and murdered problem, missing and murdered women problem in Juarez should have been declared a national emergency. I think something like this should be declared a national emergency.
- [102:28]
B
Yeah.
- [102:29]
A
And we know it is happening, but she doesn't want to bring that negative attention. I think the only way that she would perhaps address it or like, really kind of hammer down on it would be about the American buyers, because she also, you Know, big proponent of the fact that, like, a majority of arms that are used at Mexican crime scenes come from the U.S. you know, there was that whole lawsuit. Yeah, the whole thing.
- [102:57]
B
Yep.
- [102:57]
A
So that if she's like, oh, yeah, our cartels are providing it. Look who's buying that.
- [103:03]
B
That's what I'm saying.
- [103:04]
A
Those are the real villains. She would say that. And like, yeah, I agree to an extent, but I'm not entirely sure that she would want to accept, like, what's happening on the southern side of the border.
- [103:16]
B
But, like, the whole country. And she knows this, the whole country thinks and knows that the fucking place is run by these violent organizations fighting each other and buying off politicians and killing the ones they don't like. You would think that you're. That you're constantly looking through, and I hate to put it this way, but you're constantly looking through, you know, a trove to find a piece of treasure that you can say, oh, my God, if I put this one out there, people can ignore this. You know what I mean? Something that's so bad and so beyond the realm. Like, you say to people, look, they're selling all the drugs to Americans, and the average Mexican goes, yeah, whatever. But you go, look, they're killing your own pregnant girls and selling the kids, and Americans are buying them. That's like a. And it shouldn't. You shouldn't look at it this way, to be clear. But, like, if you are trying to sell something politically is like, can we please look at this? What the fuck else? How are you going to get something more serious or better or horrible? You know what I mean?
- [104:16]
A
We'll see if she. If she says something about it. She brought up my reporting, I think, once before, and it was like, show me proof. And I was like, okay, hit me on telegram.
- [104:37]
B
You were. You were saying, though, a little while ago, right when we were going to break and we got off it after we came back, but they might be doing, like. Like, even organ harvesting at some cjng.
- [104:48]
A
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, the. Like. Because that's another story that I've been sitting, like, thinking about for a while, right. And when it first broke, it was like, all the news and everyone was talking about it, and there was a lot of speculation around what was happening at these camps, who was running it, why authorities weren't, like, deeply looking into it and investigating it the way they should. And then also the mothers who had found it and brought it to the public attention were vilified by the cartels. And the Mexican federal government saying essentially that these women are making this up and they're sticking their noses in places that they don't belong. Super bad. Okay. But now sitting on this story, it's like there were so many personal belongings there. We talked about that last time I was here, and there were, like, no bodies. There was some indication of human remains and ovens that people were being burned in. But if I really look at it now with hindsight, it appears as though that this was like an operation for. Yeah, organ harvesting. The training area was very rudimentary and certainly not what I had seen in other cjng, like, actual training camp sites. So. And the people who seem to have been victims there and some who were survivors, like, their testimonies, it doesn't add up to, you're gonna come here to become a sicario and fight for us type of thing. So, yeah, this goes very deep. And so if. And that. Those. Those sites, that site, the rancheseguire in particular, tied to cjng, and now these infants are also tied to cjng, so clearly there is no limit in terms of what they're doing to run their business. And that's very worrisome. And it also worries me too, that it's like, okay, yeah, the US Is cracking down on the whole cartel thing, whatever, but we're not seeing much of a crackdown on cjng. We're seeing sanctions, visas being revoked.
- [107:02]
B
Nice. We're revoking visas.
- [107:05]
A
Woo. What a feat.
- [107:07]
B
What a win.
- [107:08]
A
Yeah, but it's not like, you know, no one's being kidnapped like Elaya was, but I guess it's kind of like one step at a time. But I also don't think that, like, that Al Mayo capture was even, like, the best, because then it led to so much fallout in Caloa. And like I said last time, really feel for those people.
- [107:29]
B
Why don't. The thing I keep thinking in the back of my mind is like, this whole power struggle between at least aspects of Sinaloa and cjng, who's the new bad boy in town kind of thing, where they're just trying to eat everything around them and they're fucking crazy and doing insane rackets that are sick even by cartel standards. Why aren't people who are actually truly loyal cartel members of the Sino of the Sinaloa cartel, using their contacts, even if they're corrupt contacts, to get, I don't know, to get some of this information inside baseball about what CJNG's back doing back, so that they can get their enemy off, off the playing field, like, get them cracked down on, you know what I mean? Sick. The cops on them, like, why aren't they doing that? There's so much to work with here.
- [108:25]
A
Okay, could be happening, right? But then also at the same time, with the amount of leverage that CJNG holds, who is gonna have the balls to go and try to them over? Because I feel like you go and try to over cjng, you get double. Let's, like, look at it realistically, look at what they're doing. I mean, if, if you can still kind of work business as usual and you kind of have, you know, their blessing to keep operating. You're not at war.
- [108:55]
B
Right.
- [108:55]
A
Just lay low.
- [108:56]
B
Right. I gotta think at this point, someone like El Mencho. I, I don't. Who, who would be more wanted than him in the world?
- [109:11]
A
Maduro.
- [109:14]
B
Yeah, I don't think Maduro has the power. He does.
- [109:18]
A
Yeah, but they, like, want him bad.
- [109:19]
B
I know they do, but I'm saying, like, literally, I'm, I forget what they want and who. Oh, like, let's talk, let's put chess pieces on the table. Mensho runs cjng, the fastest growing disease in Mexico. The most powerful cartel, somehow already doing the most insanely sick things that we've seen cartels do ever. Which again, once again, that's, that's really saying something like.
- [109:46]
A
Yeah, like, after Lositas, for sure.
- [109:48]
B
I mean, he's got to be the most wanted person on earth.
- [109:53]
A
I mean, I don't, Yeah, I mean, he's, he's up there for sure. Yeah, he's like a, like, mythological figure at this point. Because then you always have these rumors too, that he's. Is he dead or alive or what's going on?
- [110:09]
B
Is he just, like living in, in complete hiding in the hills or something? Obviously they have no idea where he is.
- [110:14]
A
Is, but yeah, I think.
- [110:15]
B
So you would assume this guy's not living in the middle of Mexico City?
- [110:19]
A
No, I think it's definitely, it's probably going to mirror, like, the whole bin Laden situation, Some compound, you know?
- [110:27]
B
Yeah, no, I, I mean, I, I, I would assume that's probably about what it is. It's just like, what about the fact that we've declared them FTOs and now maybe shine bombs letting some people in through the back door? Have you heard any information about, I don't know, US Intelligence having more resources to try to find someone like this? I mean, it's like finding a needle in a haystack.
- [110:53]
A
But if you track where those Intelligence planes are flying. They certainly have their sights set. I just. I just don't think that they have the support of Mexican forces or the.
- [111:07]
B
Government, rather, to take out El Mencho. If they got him or whoever it.
- [111:11]
A
Is, whether it's like El Mencho or Ivan or Wedding. Ryan wedding.
- [111:18]
B
Yeah, we'll get to Ryan Wedding.
- [111:19]
A
Yeah. Because he's up there, too.
- [111:21]
B
Yeah. They wouldn't have the support of the Mexican government to take out El Mencho. That seems.
- [111:26]
A
I'm sure, that El Mencho. I mean, look how long he's gone.
- [111:29]
B
Yeah.
- [111:29]
A
Without being captured. I don't think there's. There's probably a single person who's not received something from him.
- [111:37]
B
Right.
- [111:37]
A
To ensure that he. He's pretty untouchable. So do I think that there are people who know where he is? Of course. But I think that that would be a really. A big, bloody operation.
- [111:57]
B
Something like the operation you're reporting on, though, with the. The infants being stolen from the pregnant mothers and them killed. Is there any way that something like that would be happening within CJNG without having the blessing of El Mencho personally?
- [112:13]
A
See, I don't know. I was thinking about this, too. It's very hard to say. I. I really. I honestly don't know. And I asked a few people that question, and I. I don't know if he knows that's going on or not. I. That's really hard to say. And at the level it's happening, where it's like, just like, the dozens. I say just. But, like, that's too many for what this is. But it's hard to say if he's in the loop about this.
- [112:46]
B
Yeah.
- [112:47]
A
I'm not entirely sure. And it. Like, a lot of people are unsure about this, so I. Yeah. Yeah.
- [112:52]
B
What's the leadership structure around him? Like, do we know anything about it? Like, do we know other players? Like, who the number two is? Who the number.
- [112:59]
A
Yeah, I talked about El Jardino. He's definitely up there. There's this another. Another guy sort of emerging. They call him El Yogur. I think we talked about this last time. Yeah. The Yogurt.
- [113:12]
B
The Yogurt. I feel like I would remember that. I don't know if we talked about that.
- [113:16]
A
Isn't that such a weird alias?
- [113:18]
B
Yeah, that's not what I would want to be called if I had worked that hard to rise up to the top of organization. Call me like the Bat, or, you know, something like that.
- [113:26]
A
The Bat?
- [113:27]
B
Yeah.
- [113:27]
A
Like the Batman?
- [113:28]
B
Yeah. No, like the. Like the Batman. Yeah.
- [113:31]
A
I'm thinking like the bat. Like the COVID bat.
- [113:34]
B
Yeah.
- [113:34]
A
Or.
- [113:35]
B
Or like Batman, you know, something like that. Don't call me Yogurt. Like, that's kind of gay. You know what I mean? Like, hey, Yogurt, get over here.
- [113:45]
A
You know, it's like really like the shittiest alias possible. Yeah, but he's powerful as hell.
- [113:53]
B
Not powerful enough.
- [113:55]
A
So the. The understanding and knowledge surrounding who's high up in the CJNG hierarchy, it's quite known. And it also became more clear with this CJNG Chapitos alliance because then Right Hand Men were sent out to certain regions to conduct these operations and to make sure everyone was playing ball. Right. So that became very clear. Now, do I think that there's really focus on these Right Hand Men? No. And there certainly should be more, because if at any point in time Mencho dies or Mencho gets taken out, I think it's more likely that he dies than he actually gets captured. Yeah. I. One of these guys is likely going to take over.
- [114:45]
B
Right.
- [114:45]
A
And I wouldn't be surprised if one of these guys is even more violent and takes it to the next level. So those sights need to be set on who is the potential next kingpin and what they're capable of. Yeah, sorry, I can't get over how funny. Like the yogurt thing.
- [115:05]
B
Yeah, it's crazy. But like, that's also been a criticism of. Of some of the strategy that it seems to be playing out with Trump Post, like FTO designation, where he's going, like the kingpin strategy, so to speak. Because again, it's like you're cutting. Doesn't work one head, but there's 40 heads.
- [115:24]
A
Yeah. And then there's so much collateral damage that comes out of it, which is just. That's what pisses me off because it's like, oh, we got mayo now. Everyone, go figure it out for yourselves. Fight amongst yourselves. Doesn't matter who dies in the process. It's like invasion without the invasion.
- [115:44]
B
Yeah. Now, Sinalo has still been doing like a lot of. I saw you put out a video where they were dropping like 20 bodies off a bridge or something like that.
- [115:52]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [115:53]
B
What was the story?
- [115:53]
A
Fighting is not. I. I don't know because I see the bodies all the time. I'm not exactly sure which one.
- [115:58]
B
You don't know which body?
- [115:59]
A
Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. It's literally constant. And I. I know that influencers lately have been targets of major attacks. I'm not going to be able to find it amongst all the piles of bodies. But influencers lately or people with like heavy online presence, they're like really facing the brunt of it because a lot of these people were heavily aligned or laundering money. We saw this happen with El Macabelico singer, rapper.
- [116:31]
B
Okay.
- [116:32]
A
He, he was just sanctioned by the U. S for giving 50 of all of his revenue from Apple streaming to the Sinaloa cartel.
- [116:44]
B
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yep.
- [116:46]
A
You saw that, right?
- [116:46]
B
Yeah.
- [116:47]
A
And then everything, all his stuff was removed on Apple music and stuff like that. And I can only imagine like who's next in this realm because this is another thing, right. People will also come for like these artists and BE or YouTubers or whoever it is.
- [117:03]
B
Treasury sanctions Mexican rappo rapper El Macabelico over alleged cartel guys ties. Treasury said Ricardo Hernandez Murdano, who goes by the stage name El Macabellico is a narco rapper associated with the cartel del Noreste. His concerts and events are used to launder money on behalf of the organization. According to the treasury, which said at least 50 of his royalties from streaming platforms are used is or sent directly to the cartel. Crazy.
- [117:29]
A
Yeah. And so when I posted this, what a lot of people were saying was like, peso pluma's next, Forsa rejida's next, like all these really famous figures. And I just, it wouldn't surprise me. And whether they're doing it out of, yeah, I want to make more money or it's forceful. Either give us revenue, streaming revenue or you're dead. And we've seen violence against artists like this since the freaking 80s. Like the, for a long time. I mean like Chalino Sanchez was the notorious case of this where, you know, he gets the note. You've probably seen it. He's on stage, he gets the note, wipes the sweat and sings. And people say that note was a death threat. That if he kept singing.
- [118:15]
B
Yeah, that's like a famous meme.
- [118:17]
A
Yeah, like it's universal at this point. Everyone knows it. It.
- [118:21]
B
Yeah. So it's kind of funny though.
- [118:23]
A
A lot of artists are very much become targets of this because they have access to so much money and they have access to so much money laundering potential, so to say nothing of cultural.
- [118:34]
B
Influence, by the way.
- [118:35]
A
Oh yeah, that too, of course. And I talk about that all the time. I get a lot of heat for that. People say like, you know, it's not like that's the. The music isn't the problem and the cultural influence, like it's not a thing. It certainly is sometimes.
- [118:50]
B
Yeah, yeah, read the, you know, the Lyrics are sending a message.
- [118:55]
A
They're always sending a message. Whether that's consciously or not. Right. People are absorbing that, especially people who are in positions where they may be considering joining this life or they're already surrounded by it, or they have access to being a part of this. Yeah. And it promotes like a sense of. Yeah, like. Like it's like patriotic to a sense, like loyalty to this cartel.
- [119:20]
B
Yep. National anthems, if you will, for the shadow government. Yeah.
- [119:26]
A
Yeah.
- [119:31]
B
There's no shortage of. Of upper. Like, there's always some other angle where they have control. Like, we all talk about the government, we all talk about law enforcement, we talk about the military, we talk about the context in the United States. We talk. The organizations who support this abide on the other side of the United. There's. And then there's always a new estuary where it's like, oh, by the way. Yeah, they got that too. You know, it's. That's where your idea of like, you're not going to end this shit. Cynically, it's like.
- [120:03]
A
Because they aren't like drug cartels anymore. This is an organized crime group through and through a foreign terrorist organization working internationally. And the financial means go so much further beyond drugs, obviously, which was the headline of our conversation, and hopefully the story that continues to go out there, because that goes so much more beyond fentanyl.
- [120:38]
B
What's the latest with your home country? That and the implications of the cartels? I know you've been reporting on that a bunch. Obviously Canada, you were one of the first people to talk about some of the fentanyl centers there and how that was going down.
- [120:51]
A
Yeah. And everyone was like.
- [120:53]
B
And then it was totally true.
- [120:54]
A
Yeah.
- [120:55]
B
What was it? They're like, we. You were the one who told me about the guy who was like, yeah, we could stop maybe 1% of it or something.
- [121:02]
A
Oh, like they check less than 1%.
- [121:04]
B
Yeah.
- [121:05]
A
Everything that comes into the port.
- [121:06]
B
So what's the how. How is this all blowing over to there now?
- [121:12]
A
What came up the other day? Something came up the other day in our. Oh, there was like a bust, I'm pretty sure. But the key here is that our border czar said, I have no control. Pardon?
- [121:29]
B
Tom Holman.
- [121:29]
A
No, Canada's. Because Canada followed suit with us because of the whole tariff threat. So we implemented a fentanyls and a.
- [121:36]
B
Borders are.
- [121:36]
A
Are Canada's borders are. Said I have no power over law enforcement or like the border like cbsa, which is like our border patrol. So, like, don't look at me like I Literally think he said like, word for word.
- [121:53]
B
It's like a South park episode.
- [121:55]
A
And it's so.
- [121:58]
B
I'm not in my department.
- [122:01]
A
Okay. And I just thought that that was so ridiculous because, you know, now that I've, you know, I did all this reporting and then the administration came out saying, oh, yeah, you know, it's all coming through Canada, whatever. And then a lot of people were like, especially people who didn't follow me from the beginning were like, she's pushing like Trump's agenda. And it's like, no, I was saying this. Like, actually, no, Trump's agendas.
- [122:31]
B
If in this case it's like stop drugs, that should be every. Everyone's agenda.
- [122:35]
A
Yeah, I agree.
- [122:35]
B
It's crazy.
- [122:37]
A
Duh. But anyways, so there was this case opener, Singh. He got picked up by DEA opener Singh.
- [122:47]
B
That's not a Mexican.
- [122:49]
A
No, it's not. And I had been saying this and they called him Thanos because he was like collecting all the, I don't know, like, is that Avengers or something?
- [122:58]
B
It's one of them.
- [122:59]
A
Yeah.
- [122:59]
B
So they're calling him Thanos.
- [123:01]
A
Yeah. Does. Does Thanos collect the stones or something? Yeah.
- [123:05]
B
Joe says yes.
- [123:06]
A
Okay. I don't know. I only know Black Widow.
- [123:10]
B
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [123:11]
A
And so Opinder went by Thanos because he was basically conducting a lot of the transnational relations, basically, you know, collecting stones, like countries. So he was the one in charge of essentially communications between Canadian organized crime groups, U.S. particularly California based organized crime groups, and the cartel and running all the precursors and the fentanyl and the meth between all three countries.
- [123:42]
B
How was he doing this? Like, what method do we know Sources and methods here?
- [123:47]
A
Trucking companies, the ports. Yeah, it was mostly land and you call it maritime? No. Yeah, no, that's right. Sea. Land and sea. Yeah. So, yeah, that's. That was what his whole thing was. And then DEA got him.
- [124:05]
B
Nice job. Dea. Love that for you.
- [124:09]
A
Gold stars for you. And so this was actually like really tied all my reporting together because this is what I had been saying, that these South Asian gangs based in Canada had been operating with the cartels and building these relationships since prior to the legalization of marijuana. Because BC Bud was the best marijuana and Canadian organized crime groups, particularly South Asian ones. Brothers keepers, United nations and not the United nations that, like, you know, as the international organization. You said that last time.
- [124:46]
B
I wouldn't put it past them, but.
- [124:47]
A
You know, you said that same thing last time. I'm just saying you were like the United Nations.
- [124:53]
B
Listen. Hey, that's how my head goes.
- [124:56]
A
So basically he was conducting all of these operations and, and some people in organized crime have told me, no, he wasn't. He was not the big dog. But in terms of a dea, Canadian, you know, DEA RCMP collaborative capture, this to them was like their big dog capture. But as we know, or as I perceive a lot of the times when we're getting these press releases or getting this information of we got the head honcho or we hit this huge drug bust or we stopped this at the border, it's very much blown out of proportion. And I can really validate that because any time that I have reported on something like this, I get messages almost immediately from sources within organized crime being like, katerina, for fuck sakes. This is. This was. This doesn't even touch the surface. Okay, I'll tell you who the real players are or you. You know who it really is. Yeah, yeah. And so. But at the end of the day, it really, it. It tied in what I had been saying. And it further showed that whatever efforts that have been implemented since I started reporting on this last year until now are not really effective. It's all still going on essentially business as usual. And it doesn't help that our borders are said. Well, I don't know what I'm doing here.
- [126:28]
B
I have no Canadian thing I've heard in a while, actually.
- [126:31]
A
Can you pull that up? Canadian borders.
- [126:33]
B
I almost want to see him saying this.
- [126:35]
A
Canadian borders are. Says I don't control rcmp. It was something like that. That.
- [126:45]
B
I hope he said a while I said this. I don't control that A.
- [126:48]
A
We don't even like say that. When have you ever heard me say that?
- [126:51]
B
I've watched enough South Park. That's. That's what they say.
- [126:55]
A
Yeah. See, Canada's fentanyls are.
- [126:58]
B
This is a video of it.
- [126:59]
A
So, Sam, I have no authority. Sam Cooper is a great Canadian crime journalist.
- [127:06]
B
God. Yeah, well, you weren't lying. All right, so. Ottawa's newly appointed fentanyl czar told us officials in Ottawa he has no authority to influence Canadian federal police or border agencies, according to an official with knowledge of the relevant meetings. For US Enforcement experts, the admission underlined what they describe as the emptiness of Justin Trudeau and Mark Carney's high profile pledges to crack down on transnational fentanyl production and trafficking by Chinese and Mexican syndicates and underscored systemic failures in Canada's response to cartels exploiting the nation's post ports, borders and infrastructures. Ottawa's response this year to President Donald Trump's threat of threat of fentanyl interdiction tariffs and making them the 51st state, including the high profile czar position promises to join cross border gang task forces and pledges to strengthen border security has been described by U.S. and Canadian enforcement sources as largely performative, lacking both real authority and the baseline COOPER Cooperation with U.S. counterparts needed to address Canada's vulnerabilities.
- [128:10]
A
So imagine the borders are being like, yeah, I actually don't have any control over the border.
- [128:15]
B
Oh yeah, here's what he said. He said, quote, listen, I don't have the rcmp. What I don't have, I don't tell the RCMP what to do. I listened to what rcmp, CBSA and other police services have to say, but I have no authority to direct them or ask them to do anything. One US Source recall.
- [128:31]
A
So imagine if Tom Holman said that, that people would be like, so what the are you doing here then go clean the bathrooms.
- [128:38]
B
Like get the out of here.
- [128:42]
A
But this, yeah, it didn't even really make a dent in like the Canadian public perception of what's going on, which sucks.
- [128:49]
B
Yeah.
- [128:50]
A
Again, like I've said before, there's been like the fentanyl overdose death crisis in Canada is really, really bad. And so this isn't just some like he whoo topic. It has actual implications in the livelihood of a lot of people and the lives. So essentially there were these very performative actions that were taken by the Canadian government, I think significantly more than by the Mexican government to appease the US that did absolutely nothing.
- [129:25]
B
Perfect example here, politicians being performative. I've never heard heard of it.
- [129:28]
A
Who would have thought?
- [129:29]
B
Yeah. So there in your opinion then, based on the fact that there's no organization here whatsoever north of the border, out over there in Canada. We have our own problems here obviously, but up there as well, like they're totally.
- [129:45]
A
It's business as usual. Yeah. And any of my sources in Canadian law enforcement, they're always kind of bitching to me about it. They're just like Mike and Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other. When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a 4 liter jug. When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping.
- [130:07]
B
Oh, come on.
- [130:08]
A
They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia trip planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip. Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool.
- [130:17]
B
Whatever.
- [130:19]
A
You were made to outdo your holidays. We were were made to help organize the competition. Expedia made to travel. It's the Same shit.
- [130:27]
B
And it's growing.
- [130:28]
A
And it's growing. We have no resources. We don't have the manpower. They don't want to look into. They don't even really want to cooperate with the U.S. like, we don't even know how to stop this. And these are some guys who have so much intel and information and they just, they can't do anything with it. And I can, I can imagine that that would be very frustrating. And then I can imagine it'd be frustrating when you have me. I'm like, yeah, okay, I'm going into the fentanyl lab run by the Chinese and the Mexican cartels and the Indian guys in Canada. And then everyone being like, lies doesn't exist. And then law, Canadian law enforcement is literally calling me and messaging me being like, oh my God, yes, we've been saying this and nothing is being done.
- [131:16]
B
So it's safe to assume then minus the obvious immediate concern that more Canadians are now. I mean, fentanyl death is rising. It's. It's a huge problem that's increasing. And that, that obviously is a terrible tragedy for the population. But it's also safe to say that because of the success of the labs that the cartels have been able to establish over the last few years there, they're establishing a lot more and they're doing it with impunity.
- [131:43]
A
Yes, 100 exactly. That mic drop.
- [131:49]
B
Like what, where are they doing it though? Like in, in the foothills of the mountains or are they doing it like in the back of the 7 11?
- [131:58]
A
It's in a lot of like farmland regions where there's like large properties. It's also in suburban areas where it like a, like a typical trap house. And that's been happening for a long time in Canada. Is that.
- [132:11]
B
Not have those and you have those in Canada?
- [132:13]
A
Yep. Trap houses.
- [132:16]
B
You got trap queens too, Joe. Like what I did there. God damn. Get your together Canada.
- [132:27]
A
Yeah, I agree we gotta get our.
- [132:29]
B
Together here to be fair, but like really, Come on.
- [132:31]
A
And it's funny cuz when you ask me about, you know, like the capital punishment and it's like, yeah, we do not have capital punishment in Canada. And so anytime I say we got to bring that back because you have like child predators just walking free three days after they raped like 10 girls under 14. People are like, how could you say that?
- [132:51]
B
Yeah, this is one of. And, and I, I understand your perspective because you see the worst of the worst and you see this so clearly. Guilty people. If you're talking broadly about capital punishment, the reason I have been against it is because, you know, we. We got the best justice system here in America, but it's got its flaws like everywhere else, and it falls short sometimes. And there are an inordinate number of people. It's not like 0.1%. It is more than that. There are people who are. Who are found guilty of crimes in bad cases where they didn't do it and they're on death row, and sometimes they. A lot of times they've gone. Gone to their death and been killed. And like, the other side of that is, I'm like, dude, if you get sentenced to life in prison, I think that's almost worse because you don't know how long you're gonna live. Your freedom's completely taken away. I mean, if you're sent to somewhere like supermax, you'd rather be dead every second of every day. The issue there then also becomes, though, it's like, cynically, you're like, oh, so our tax dollars are paying to keep.
- [133:56]
A
Them alive and you just get to, like, live kind of in safety. I mean, I understand the nuance to it, okay? And I know that a part of me, like, in the heat of the moment when I'm covering really tragic cases, I'm like, just kill this person.
- [134:11]
B
Right.
- [134:11]
A
And I know that that's not good. Okay. But I've seen so many cases go without justice.
- [134:20]
B
Yeah.
- [134:21]
A
Particularly towards just vulnerable victims, that I'm like, are you kidding me? And especially in Canada, it's such a problem because then we have catch and release. Like, you know, you bring the guy in, oh, he did this horrible thing, he's back out on the streets, and.
- [134:38]
B
You just report, like, point out one of those where there was a catch and relate. What was that? It was really sick.
- [134:43]
A
It was really bad. Oh, the guy. No, no, no. This wasn't a catch and release. The guy, I think in Nova Scotia, which is like the east coast of Canada, who raped, murdered, and cut up, like, a teenage girl. And then he went to jail for, I don't know, a coup, like, some years. And now he's out in the public. Yeah, I said that like a Canadian, actually, just now. But yeah, he's out. But see, that's.
- [135:08]
B
That's a disgrace.
- [135:09]
A
But see, that's what I mean. And I think that that also, like, evokes, like, a really strong emotion in me where I'm like, well, you know what, if we're not going to even lock him up, like, just end it. Right? So that's where that's coming from. We're seeing just, like, injustice after injustice. And that, of course, still exists in the US But I think that the level of, like, impunity and lack of oversight in Canada and Mexico has made me more passionate about it after seeing so many time and time again. And we talked about this in the first episode of that little girl who was beaten to death by her stepmother. And I was just like, that traumatized the. Out of me. How many times do we see this happening over and over again? Like, how many times am I going to be on your show and be like. Like, it just keeps getting worse. Right. We started with that little girl, and now here we are talking about young, pregnant women being murdered for their babies to be sold to Americans.
- [135:58]
B
No, it. I. I hear you completely. And, like, the. The. The hypocritical side of, like, an argument with mine is that I see a story like Kane Velasquez, and I'm like, like, good for you, bro. And I'm sick that he went. Didn't he get sentenced, like, five years in prison or something?
- [136:16]
A
Yeah.
- [136:16]
B
Just cra. Cuz, like. But again, like, that guy was obviously guilty. You know what I mean? And then it's like, what about another case where the person's not? And that's where my other argument comes in the initial one I had. And I'm like, but, you know.
- [136:35]
A
Yeah, in a perfect world, people, he.
- [136:37]
B
Was the UFC speed fighter who tried to kill the guy who sexually abused his son. And. Yeah. And. And like, shout out to him.
- [136:47]
A
But honestly. Yeah, I forgot I was gonna say sorry. No, but that is. Oh, in an ideal world, that you wouldn't have people facing that type of capital punishment that are, you know, innocent or that there's, like, any morsel of a doubt. But also, in a perfect world, you wouldn't have criminals walking freely or living their lives with any level of normalcy after having ruined someone's life.
- [137:18]
B
Right. There has to be.
- [137:20]
A
I don't think that's price to pay. And I think that when you increase the price, you disincentivize the crime from happening.
- [137:28]
B
That is another. Yeah.
- [137:29]
A
Because in Canada, the crime rate is really bad. Like random stranger attacks, violent ones.
- [137:35]
B
You've mentioned, though, several times today, a guy that you and I talked about off camera. And I want to get to some of the other things you're going to be doing here, which I'm really psyched for you. I think it's going to be really cool. But you keep talking about Ryan Wedding.
- [137:48]
A
Yes.
- [137:48]
B
Who's actually a story. I'm Very, very out of the loop on. But.
- [137:52]
A
And a lot of people are, which is ridiculous to me.
- [137:55]
B
Tell people who he is.
- [137:56]
A
Okay, let's pull him up because. Ryan Wedding, Canadian Olympic snowboarder, he went.
- [138:01]
B
From the slopes to the other.
- [138:03]
A
To the other slopes, who is now a drug kingpin operating in Mexico and very, very well aligned with the Chapitos faction of the Sinaloa cartel.
- [138:14]
B
How. How did this happen?
- [138:16]
A
Yeah. Okay, well, let's.
- [138:18]
B
Yeah, there he is. Former Olympian wanted for running transnational drug enterprise and ordering several murders. Added to FBI's list of 10 most wanted fugitives. US Department of State offering a reward of up to 10 million for capture. Former Olympic snowboarder and Canadian national Ryan Wedding, 43, has been added to the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list. Akili Davis, the assistant director in charge of FBI's Los Angeles field office, announced today during a press conference in Westwood. A Dick Davis. That is what it's called. Was joined by law enforcement partners with the United States Department of State, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Federal Policing, the Los Angeles Police Department, the DEA Los Angeles and U.S. attorney's Office, Washington, D.C. ryan Wedding, whose aliases include El Jefe, Giant Public Enemy, James Conrad King and Jesse King, was born in Thunder Bay, Canada, and competed in the giant slalom snowboarding Competition during the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City, Utah. At present, Wedding is wanted for allegedly running a transnational drug trafficking network that routinely shipped hundreds of kilograms of cocaine from Colombia through Mexico and Southern California to Canada and other locations in the United States. And for orchestrating multiple murders and an attempted murder in furtherance of these drugs crimes, Weddings placement On the top 10 list marks the 535th edition to FBI's list of notorious. Okay, I don't need to read that.
- [139:46]
A
Yeah. So essentially this guy, he comes from Thunder Bay, which is in Ontario, Canada, on the east coast. And Thunder Bay has always been known, kind of. It has a crime problem, a drug problem, but it's. It's small. And he then allegedly went to Colombia, like after his Olympic career, got in with some people, started drug trafficking. Just went. Went full. Let's see how we can move. This product was so good at it went to Mexico and the Chapitos were like, you're really good at this. Let's bring you on. And he's very well protected by them now. Source of mine in organized crime. Criminal source not. Trust me, bro.
- [140:41]
B
Oh, is this a guy?
- [140:42]
A
I.
- [140:42]
B
We were talking.
- [140:43]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
- [140:45]
B
Yeah, I like this guy. He's funny.
- [140:49]
A
Yeah, me too. It Kind of scares me, but I feel like that's what he wants. Yeah.
- [140:54]
B
Hey, look, you got to get your sources where you get them.
- [140:56]
A
Yeah.
- [140:56]
B
But anyway, source of yours has told.
- [140:58]
A
Me just how violent Wedding is. So what he will do is fly out, like, to Mexico, Chinese businessmen and. And. And Chinese people or anyone really involved in the drug trade and be like, you're gonna work for me. We're gonna use your trucking company, or you're gonna put up some sort of shell company to launder our money. And it's not a question. It's either yes or he literally. Yes. Incredibly violent. And so what I've been told, as of most recently, he's not in very good standing with the, like, Chinese organized crime group because he killed someone in that group who was not supposed to be killed.
- [141:46]
B
Is this someone that, like, exclusive, that, like, Xi knows about that kind of thing? I mean, he knows everything from that country.
- [141:54]
A
It's possible.
- [141:55]
B
It's possible.
- [141:55]
A
I don't know.
- [141:56]
B
Okay.
- [141:57]
A
And so. But Wedding is. Is. Is definitely up there in terms of the transnational drug trade. But he's so under the radar.
- [142:11]
B
I mean, even you were like, yeah, I'm totally unfamiliar.
- [142:14]
A
He's someone that people should certainly like. He. He's one that would go down in history.
- [142:19]
B
Is he operating like you. You explained it, but is he based out of Colombia and then dealing with the people in Mexico?
- [142:25]
A
Based out of Mexico?
- [142:27]
B
He was at the beginning, but like the way when we were talking earlier, why did the context sound like he's in Columbia?
- [142:32]
A
Because he started in Colombia and then moved his way to Mexico. He made the right contacts, is really good at what he does, and his right. Right hand man, Andrew Clark, was just arrested, and apparently he's singing like a canary to the dea.
- [142:50]
B
Ooh, let's pull this up.
- [142:52]
A
I hope we're can say that.
- [142:53]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, it's public information.
- [142:57]
A
No, that's not that he's singing.
- [143:00]
B
Well, here on Julian Dory podcast, another one, co leader of transnational drug trafficking organization, arrives in the U.S. to face federal narcotics and murder charges. This is February 28, 2025. An alleged leader of a transnational drug trafficking enterprise co helmed by former Canadian limited Olympic snowboarder Ryan Wedding, has been sent to the United States from Mexico to face federal charges alleging that he ran a continuing criminal enterprise, committed murder and attempted murder, and conspired to possess, distribute and export cocaine, The Justice Department announced today. Andrew Clark, 34, a Canadian citizen who is residing in Mexico, was arrested by Mexican authorities in October 2024. And scheduled to be arraigned Monday on. On Monday in United States District Court in Phoenix on charges contained in a 16 count superseding indictment out of the Central district of California. Alongside Wedding Clark allegedly controlled a billion dollar drug enterprise with supply routes that transported ton qualities of cocaine from Colombia to Canada by way of Mexico and Southern California. From March to August 2024, Wedding and Clark allegedly conspired with others to export, possess and distribute more than 1800 kilograms of cocaine. In addition, using a network of virtual currency wallets. Oh, my God. Wedding, Clark and their co conspirators transferred approximately a quarter of a billion dollars. Yeah, that's insane. From April to September 2024, in one day, investigators seized more than $3 million from one cryptocurrency. Well, that's a lot less than a quarter of a billion. I mean, where the is the rest of it? But I mean, so this could potentially be like the. This is gonna Sammy the Bull to John Gotti.
- [144:38]
A
Yep, this is. This is the guy. This is our guy. And I know that the US Wants to get him really bad. And I have heard that Mexico isn't really cooperating with this. Not because they don't want to, because they just simply don't really see him as a threat.
- [144:57]
B
Why don't they see him as a threat?
- [144:58]
A
I don't know, but this is what I've heard.
- [144:59]
B
I mean, they picked him up and they gave them to us. Right? It said the Mexican authorities arrested him in October. Right.
- [145:06]
A
Clark, not Wedding.
- [145:11]
B
So you're saying that they're not helping on the arrest. They helped on this guy, but now they're not taking Wedding seriously.
- [145:17]
A
This is what I've heard that's so confusing.
- [145:22]
B
Like, that's literally got my brain twisted. They helped with this guy. He's the number two. And now they got the big honcho who's got like, by the way, the headline power. You know, that's not how you should look at it, but. Canadian Olympic snowboarder.
- [145:35]
A
I know, and that's why. I don't understand why he isn't like, people are like, holy, this guy, because what the.
- [145:41]
B
What a name.
- [145:41]
A
So I'm actually working on like a whole rundown of Ryan Wedding for my substack, like, to really. So people can. Like, really. We're gonna do a whole life timeline. There's a lot of exclusive information from people who actually worked with him at a certain point in time. So then you guys can be really locked in and understand how he went from one slope to another.
- [146:05]
B
Do you have to watch.
- [146:07]
A
I'm, like, scratching my nose, too, as we're talking about this. Is she his consumer?
- [146:12]
B
No, no, no. But do you worry about. Obviously, the guy's very bad, but you're getting to people who have beef with him. So how do you sift through reporting like that and figure out what's obviously real about him, which is a lot, but also then figure out what other stuff they. Other people might have done that they try to pin on him because they don't fucking like him.
- [146:36]
A
Yeah.
- [146:36]
B
How do you do that?
- [146:37]
A
Well, that's what I'm trying to navigate right now. And obviously it's not easy, but it's a matter of talking with multiple people in this atmosphere. And then, of course, there are certain things that I will report as this is a rumor and this is what I'm being told. But there's a lot of stuff that I can confirm that's very interesting, especially in his case. I think, generally, as a person, this is just very interesting.
- [147:04]
B
Oh, of course. How does he get, like. How do you go from that?
- [147:10]
A
I think he's just too smart for his own good. Like, he's a very smart guy and very powerful. I also think that he has a massive ego.
- [147:18]
B
Well, that goes without say.
- [147:20]
A
Yeah, a massive ego. And it's just really funny because I was talking to someone about this, and I was like, well, two Canadians went down to Mexico to, you know, talk to the cartels. But we had very different motives, me and Wedding.
- [147:35]
B
Oh, yeah. That took you so long. I was putting together the guy they arrested.
- [147:40]
A
Oh, at Clark.
- [147:41]
B
Yeah, Clark. I was like, why do they have different motives?
- [147:44]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [147:45]
B
That took a minute. Sorry.
- [147:46]
A
It's okay.
- [147:49]
B
God, what an idiot.
- [147:52]
A
Third and last time.
- [147:54]
B
Oh, man. But he, like, what's. Does he have family still in. In Canada, I imagine.
- [148:03]
A
Yeah.
- [148:05]
B
Have they talked to anyone? Do they disown him?
- [148:08]
A
Well, I'm. I'm trying to get in there. And he's. What?
- [148:13]
B
No.
- [148:13]
A
And he's got a wife and a son. And so. No, no, no, not in Canada.
- [148:18]
B
Okay.
- [148:19]
A
Mexican. And so your facial reaction is throwing me off. You need to show that. Like, he.
- [148:28]
B
Bro. He's going back and forth. Yeah.
- [148:31]
A
So he's got. Yeah. Wife, son, Mexican. And then he's got, you know, the girlfriends throughout.
- [148:40]
B
They always do.
- [148:41]
A
They always do. Yeah. Some real baddies, too, if you ask me.
- [148:45]
B
I mean, he's a powerful guy.
- [148:47]
A
Yeah. Money talks.
- [148:49]
B
Money does talk. But, like, native family in Canada. Brother, sister, mom, dad. I mean, they're not in the drug trade. But you're trying to.
- [148:59]
A
Or you can read about on my substack. Actually, you're working on it, right? Working on it. Hitting the grindstone with this one.
- [149:07]
B
Are they embarrassed to him?
- [149:08]
A
I take it you can read in my next book.
- [149:11]
B
God damn it. You can't give me a little preview, like a little piece? Because we're gonna plug what you're doing as a big story with all this and the new thing in a minute.
- [149:20]
A
I, I want to have all the ducks in the row for this story before I really talk about it and get into it. Because again, like, there's a lot of pieces here and I want to tell this story in the most fleshed out way possible. So. Yeah, we'll see.
- [149:35]
B
Okay, now you're, you've been doing the show with Ironclad now for some months. It's great reporting. You're putting out a ton of stories all the time on the ground. It's been, I, I think it's been really good content for you to get in a flow with your reporting and getting it to the masses because it's consistent minute, 20 minutes on the ground. Sometimes it's showing you literally working with sources and stuff. So people can see that. Obviously there's a code of anonymity as to who you're talking to. But you know, I, I, I think, I think that's all great. But now, you know, you started this whole journey going down there and covering the cartels in particularly and getting all these stories and getting entranced across the different factions of the cartels in Mexico. But now how, as I understand it, you're going to be expanding your scope and doing Ironclad is going to be backing you to do some full blown, in depth, sometimes like hour long documentaries around the world.
- [150:33]
A
Yeah.
- [150:34]
B
Covering all different types of organized crime. Is, is this, did you always want to kind of expand to do.
- [150:40]
A
Yeah, okay. I always wanted to do international coverage and it's of course not easy. Not simply just logistically, but also understanding context and nuance of the regions that you're covering and then acquiring sources and making sure everything is valid. Right. So with borderline dispatches, the coverage really picked up some momentum and people really seem to like it.
- [151:13]
B
Yes.
- [151:14]
A
And so then, and Ironclad is really great because they very much support my journey as a journalist in terms of how I like to tell these stories. And, and they are very much about that raw, honest storytelling and the high stakes storytelling. So I was like, you know what, why don't we take the coverage international and the Support was there. Is there. And so now, especially seeing how transnational all this crime goes, I'm hoping to take the viewers along to tell this story again, super unfiltered, boots on the ground and show you as if it's from your own two eyes what the fuck is happening and how people are running these operations and then hopefully try to get some other coverage that I feel like is very polarized in the media as well. Well, so, like mine. Yeah. Because I've actually had so many people comment to me about that and be like, where do you stand and what do you think about the coverage? And that is a good sign to me. Like, it's a terrible situation, of course, but to me, it's a good sign that people feel like they can trust me with going and telling that story and it's going to be honest and it's going to be. Be solid one.
- [152:39]
B
Like, that's really hard to do, though, because they're not letting in journalists.
- [152:42]
A
Right. So that's why you have to find a way. Because those stories need to be told. Yeah. Because careful, if you. With the amount of tragedy that's going on, what you can't do is keep press out. It's a pillar of.
- [153:01]
B
Oh, I totally agree. Unfortunately, they've done a very effective job of. I know, not letting them in. It's a disgrace. It should be it. And it is being called out internationally. Obviously, we're talking about Israel not letting in the press to Gaza. If you got nothing to hide, there's no reason for the press not to be there.
- [153:16]
A
I agree. There should always be Free Press 100% in every area and crevice of every region. So, you know, that's like an ideal one. Right. Because I want to, you, you know, I want to go and get the coverage where there's stories to tell and people don't have voices or platforms.
- [153:37]
B
Which means you're looking beyond the obvious point here. You're looking beyond just, just organized crimes organizations of which there's many stories that you're going to tell, but you're looking at things where there are.
- [153:48]
A
Yeah. That will stay where there's.
- [153:49]
B
Where there's tragedy and where there is another form of crime, by the way, where governments are doing things that are up. And you know, that's. You just got to be very careful because that, I mean, you already do a very dangerous job. It's not like it's kind of hard to get more dangerous than you are right now, but especially going around to new places you never been before.
- [154:08]
A
Oh, it changes the game entirely. But yeah, the, the organized crime coverage will stay. Cuz I, I know that people appreciate that and of course that's what I've been locked into for the longest time now. But I think that beyond the, the content that I cover, a lot of people also appreciate the way that I report. And so if I have an opportunity to go and cover these types of stories and regions with the style and hopefully grit that I have when I go there. Yeah, I would really like to do that. So we're looking to take the coverage international.
- [154:48]
B
That's gonna be great. Are you gonna do. If you do this full substack thing on, on Wedding, is there a story you can go get documentary wise? I don't know if it's like in the middle of Mexico or whatever where you can put something together on him too.
- [155:05]
A
I hope so.
- [155:07]
B
That would be cool. It'd be really cool. By the way if like you were able to put something together that's great. That educates and obviously entertains people along the way. That then results in some happening too.
- [155:22]
A
No, that's not my goal.
- [155:23]
B
I know that's not your goal but I'm saying like if your actual reporting as a journalist, getting the story, here's what it is. Information comes out then eventually leads to good things.
- [155:35]
A
Oh, tangible change.
- [155:36]
B
Sure.
- [155:36]
A
Oh yeah, no, I agree. I thought you meant like I put out the story and then they captured like the like Ryan Wedding, which would.
- [155:43]
B
Be some tangible change.
- [155:44]
A
I don't want to die. But yeah, no, that, that is what I hope and that people, what I like is when people are very critical and they're staying tuned into global affairs and what's going on even if it's not happening directly in their backyard. People need to care and be compassionate. There's such a lack of that and it frustrates me. So that's the goal here, to keep people informed and critical.
- [156:11]
B
I will keep doing what you're doing. It's. It's been really cool to see you, see you really in increase the scope of stories you're doing over the past year and now it's gonna, it's gonna take a whole new level. So we'll have, we'll have ironclad link down there also when that gets up and running in a month or two with the, with the news stories, just let me know and we'll stick that link in there as well for people and we'll have all your socials. I know you're constantly putting out information on X, sometimes on instagram too, so people can follow you there. Anywhere else substack?
- [156:43]
A
Substack.
- [156:43]
B
Yeah.
- [156:44]
A
Yep.
- [156:44]
B
Okay.
- [156:44]
A
That's about it.
- [156:47]
B
Well, thanks for coming in short notice to go through this. It's a really.
- [156:51]
A
I'm glad that you brought me on for this story because this was one that needed this.
- [156:57]
B
It is where we can give a bullhorn to stuff like that to get people's attention. We will do it.
- [157:03]
A
I appreciate that.
- [157:04]
B
When you have those, you're welcome back anytime.
- [157:07]
A
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
- [157:08]
B
Of course. All right, everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.