#340 - The Vatican, Demons & CREEPIEST Pastor in America | Religion Business

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Julian Dorey Podcast #340 – The Vatican, Demons & CREEPIEST Pastor in America | Religion Business

Release Date: September 26, 2025
Host: Julian Dorey
Guests: Nathan (Emmy-winning filmmaker and creator of "The Religion Business"), Chris (former HOA management executive)

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Episode Overview

In this gripping and wide-ranging episode, Julian welcomes Nathan and Chris—creators of The Religion Business docuseries—to dissect the dark intersection of organized religion, money, and power. Through historical context, personal stories, and investigative insights, they reveal how institutions—particularly megachurches and the Vatican—can become corrupted, turning faith into enterprise. The conversation uncovers tax loopholes, the psychological manipulation of vulnerable believers, powerful historical throughlines, and the jaw-dropping excesses of America’s most infamous religious leaders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origin Stories & Motivations

[02:38–11:08]

• Nathan’s Background: Raised in West Coast mega churches; near-death experience in his teens; filmmaking after a career-ending head injury; early realization of abuse and corruption among faith leaders.
  • “My whole life has led up to this conversation... when you have a near-death experience, your perspective on life radically changes for sure.” [02:38]
• Chris’s Background: Left the corporate world to “pick up the cross” after personal emptiness; drawn to The Religion Business by its mission for solutions, not just exposés.
  • “I had just spent a good decade chasing the world and my soul was completely empty… it’s time to pick up the cross and follow Christ.” [09:58]

2. The Transformation of Christianity Through History

[11:43–19:07]

• Halverson’s Quote: Christianity’s progression—philosophy (Greece), institution (Rome), culture (Europe), enterprise (America).
  • “First, religion moved to Greece and became a philosophy. Then to Rome and became an institution. Then to Europe and became a culture. Then to America—and became an enterprise.” – US Senate Chaplain Richard Halverson (quoted) [12:10]
• The early church’s radical love and self-sacrifice contrasted with the later accumulation of power, money, and institutionalization.
• “At what point does the institution disease the organism of Christianity so much that now it’s just an institution bastardizing the organism?” [18:29]

3. Churches as Multi-Billion Dollar Enterprises

[20:59–28:55]

• Tax Loopholes & Nonprofit Status:
  • Churches don’t have to file financial disclosures (no IRS Form 990); virtually anything can be a “church” if you vaguely hit elements of a 14-point checklist (created in the 1960s).
  • “You can say, I want to start a church. And because you are starting a church, you’re a church... The IRS doesn’t even know you exist.” [22:24]
  • Hell’s Angels, talent agencies, and other nontraditional entities have qualified as churches under this loose legal framework.
• Origins of the 14-Point Test: Inspired by a 1960s court case involving the Salvation Army; laid groundwork for massive financial exploitation.

4. Corruption and Manipulation in Megachurches

[28:55–55:08]

• Faith as a Sales Tactic:
  • Leaders like Kenneth Copeland use fear ("Give or God will punish you") and promises of prosperity to drive donations.
    • “You instill a tremendous amount of fear in them. You’re going to be removed from God’s list of children if you don't tithe.” – Chris [52:00]
  • Needs-based selling is described as the perfect manipulative tool, especially with a captive, vulnerable audience.
• The Vanity Commandment - Taking God’s Name in Vain:
  • “Don’t build your own vanity off the name of the Lord… When you look at that commandment under that new light, you can look at almost every branded church today and be like, they’re taking the Lord’s name in vain in every aspect of the business.” – Nathan [53:43]

5. Fake Accountability & Institutionalized Abuse

[45:24–47:16]

• Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA) was created to deflect real government oversight; offers little real accountability.
  • “That’s not a watchdog group, that’s like a handshake group.” – Nathan [45:40]
• Mail-order scams (Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, Copeland, Bakker’s $140M/year budget), televangelist fortunes, and Christian “theme parks” funded on broken promises.

6. Transparency, Government Regulation, and Social Capital

[61:01–81:01; 111:03–117:22]

• Absence of Transparency:
  • “It should be law in this country that you have to be transparent about that, just like politicians allegedly have to be transparent about who donates to them.” – Julian [42:31]
• Deadly Risks for Whistleblowers:
  • “Anytime you disrupt a person’s revenue stream, it’s dangerous.” – Chris [09:58]
• False Middlemen:
  • “Nowhere in the Bible does it say there’s a middleman… Now we’re trying to justify it.” – Nathan [41:18]
• Social Capital:
  • Originally, nonprofits were carved out for their role in building local social capital. With tech, the scale became global, moving away from real community needs. [116:00]

7. Jesus as Rebel, Not CEO

[56:04–97:40]

• The archetype of spiritual leaders is the everyman (“IMU Theory” – the relatable protagonist). Mega pastors invert this, raising themselves above their congregants, counter to the humility modeled by Jesus.
  • “If there were a demon on Earth, that’s it. He literally looks like it.” – Julian on Kenneth Copeland [49:14]
• Clergy as Top Psychopath Profession:
  • “One of the top professions for a psychopath is clergy.” – Chris [59:36]

8. Personal Testimony, Vulnerability, and Transformation

[87:28–97:40]

• Chris’ story of finding and losing faith, hoping for “prosperity” from motivational mega-preachers like Joel Osteen, and returning to deep study of scripture and true discipleship.
• “I wanted to feel good… inspirational speaking, positive energy… but I was so scared of giving up the world.” – Chris [91:10]

9. Systemic Injustice and Calls for Accountability

[188:35–197:29]

• Guests receive daily dumps of evidence from former staff, congregants, and accountants from major churches and ministries, confirming systemic fraud and criminal behavior (money laundering, possible murder threats, etc.).
  • “We get evidence dumped on us daily... stories of gun running from the Middle East on private jets.” – Nathan [43:32, 192:20, 193:01]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Halverson’s arc: “First, religion moved to Greece and became a philosophy, then to Rome and became an institution, then to Europe and became a culture, then to America—and became an enterprise.” – [12:10]
• “As soon as you put your faith in the God of your faith, things get real dicey.” – Nathan [81:19]
• “Church organizations are now being weaponized as political platforms.” – Chris [145:44]
• “I would call Kenneth a fraud. He promised to build those three things, never even tried to build them. And in the for-profit world, we call that fraud.” – Nathan [187:27]
• “We always say: Good intentions pave the way to hell.” – [33:18; recurring]
• On Hell’s Angels qualifying as a church: “They check off more of the 14 points than most religious organizations... Most Christians today, I don’t think will die for their creed, bro.” – Nathan [24:38]
• On the danger of career clergy: “If your livelihood is dependent on the continuation of an institution, you'll eventually abdicate some part of your convictions to it. As soon as you abdicate a little bit of your faith, you're done.” – Nathan [152:09]
• On atheists vs. believers: “We both put faith in something. Even if you're atheist, you're putting faith in your faith in that idea.” – Nathan [128:08]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:38 | Nathan’s near-death experience and shift in life perspective | | 12:10 | Transformation of Christianity through Halverson's quote | | 22:24 | Tax loopholes, founding of churches, 14-point checklist | | 41:22 | Middlemen, tithing, and false scriptural justifications | | 52:00 | Manipulation of believers through fear, especially tithing | | 53:43 | Taking the Lord’s name in vain (true meaning) | | 73:07 | Church size, megachurch myth, and true shepherding | | 97:40 | Archetypal stories (Hollywood/Bible), clergy as psychopaths | | 116:00 | Social capital, technology, and nonprofits losing sight of their mission | | 152:09 | Career clergy & abdication of conviction | | 179:56 | Tommy G docuseries: on-the-ground investigation at Copeland’s compound | | 187:27 | Direct accusations of fraud against Copeland | | 192:20 | Bombshell: money drops, gun/drug running, and murder within ministries |

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Tone & Language

• Frank, unfiltered, investigative—often irreverent but deeply reverent toward the spiritual heart of Christianity.
• Host and guests blend humor, sarcasm, and passionate outrage with earnest appeals to return to authentic faith and transparency.

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Conclusion

This episode is an indictment of the “religion industrial complex”—but not of faith itself. The guests’ central argument: faith is personal, communal, and subversive, not a business model for self-enrichment or political power plays. Their work (documented in The Religion Business) is a call for light, accountability, and a radical return to spiritual first principles: truth, transparency, humility, and compassion.

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Recommended:

• Watch the Religion Business docuseries ([link in show notes])
• Explore further: Trinity Foundation, stories on Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, ECFA, historical Council of Nicaea

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“Unless the person’s heart is changed and they live out, because it says faith without works is dead, and they live out carrying that cross—that’s what the world needs more than ever right now.” – Nathan [170:52]

Transcript

[Nathan]

Ten Commandments. Don't take the Lord's name in vain. Copeland. He promised to build six things. A ministry building, his radio station, his TV network, a hotel, and then an elderly retirement community. So he raised tens of millions of dollars through these mailers. We went to the city and we found nothing. I would call Kenneth a prophet. And the big thing is, is estimated to be worth 750 million bucks. Yeah. All in the name of Jesus.

[Chris]

And how do you do that? You instill a tremendous amount of fear in them. You're going to be removed from God's list of children if you don't tithe.

[Nathan]

You give to me because I am prosperous, which will make you prosperous. And if you don give enough, it's because you got to give more. That is a dark web of a mess. I'll tell you right now. We get evidence dumped on us daily. We've got stories of gun running from the Middle east on private jets.

[Julian]

It's a little more cartels, too.

[Nathan]

We should talk about that. This is a really interesting conversation.

[Julian]

Hey, guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five star review. They're both a huge, huge help.

[Nathan]

Thank you.

[Julian]

All right, we got the religion business guys here.

[Nathan]

What is up, brother?

[Julian]

Thanks for coming to New Jersey.

[Chris]

It's awesome to be here, bro.

[Julian]

It's good. It's good to talk with you guys. Apologies for the studio under construction right now. We are making some changes, but you guys are the first ones that at least have the new cameras and have the 6700 on the third seat. We're gonna have this camera actually over there now, too, but this one's tighter than it's ever been, so we should look good.

[Nathan]

That's exciting. As long as I look good, you know?

[Julian]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's not too hard to do.

[Nathan]

I'm tired. Do I look old?

[Julian]

No.

[Nathan]

Good.

[Julian]

You don't. You look not a day under 50. Not perfect. Doing awesome. But I actually got initially introduced to you guys through our mutual friend Tommy G. You guys did a amazing documentary with him on Kenneth Copeland is a personal cause of mine. At least that we haven't covered on the podcast, but comes up a lot on the podcast, which is people from a place of, like, bad power taking advantage. Advantage of people who are trying to use religion for good, particularly on people who may be in a vulnerable point in their life and, you know, manipulating them into giving money. And I just think it's the lowest thing ever. And so, you guys, we're going to talk all about your background, everything today. But you guys have made a crusade out of not only trying to expose this stuff, but eventually provide solutions for it. So that does not happen. So just for people out there who aren't familiar with, you know, your background or who you are, haven't seen the documentary or the Shawn Ryan podcast, you just did. What, what even got you into this? Nate.

[Nathan]

My whole life has led up to, to this conversation with you and the conversation, conversation with Sean. I feel I was raised in, you know, big non denominational churches on the west coast, so LA and then San Diego. Loved it. Traveled the world in my early 20s and 30s for filmmaking. So I've been making films since I was 18 because of a head injury I had. I couldn't. I was a big action sports guy and so I couldn't ride BMX anymore.

[Julian]

What happened there?

[Nathan]

I felt basically I fell off a cliff like a 40 foot drop in Mexico. And I was on a quad. Yeah, I was in the dunes. I was 16, I just got my driver's license and we were in Cabo for Christmas, I think it was Christmas. And I was just on a quad and I used to jump motorcycles and BMX bikes and like freestyle and there was just this little windswept lip. We were out in the sand dunes and I was in third gear, I think, and I just went off of it expecting there to be a back and there was none. And it was just a 40ft, 40 foot drop. Yeah. And I had my little brother on the back with me.

[Julian]

Oh my God.

[Nathan]

And so I went to buck the quad. I just threw the quad away and I knocked my brother off. But my momentum killed as soon as I hit him. So as soon as I was coming up to the lip, I realized there was nothing behind it. So I just went to chuck the quad and I knocked my brother off and. And then I just had no momentum. So I was stuck on it in the quad. Crushed me and I had a grand mal seizure in the dunes and bleeding on my brain. And I was life flighted from Cabo up to Scripps in La Jolla in San Diego. And the doctors were like, he's got like a 5050 chance of living. And luckily they were going to. They prepped me for brain, like to open up my head to like alleviate the swelling and bleeding. And the doctor was just like, we're just going to let him sit for a while and I'm just going to watch him. And so they ended up monitoring me and over a Course of two weeks I came back like fully conscious. And I don't remember those two weeks of my life. And the doctor's like, you are a walking miracle, 100%. And my family's very tied into the missionary community around the world. Like my uncle's a missionary in Kiev and close family friends have missionaries in Papua New Guinea. And so I literally had people all around the world praying for me. And I fully believe in the power of prayer and that energy, you know, And I believe God saved my life and brought me here. And so that injury, when you have a near death experience, they say your perspective on life radically changes for sure. And so I don't really see death or fear of death as a something to be afraid of. And so that's really led into the religion business. And in my 20s, between that experience and then a bunch of personal experiences with faith leaders, either sexually abusing kids or stealing money, and then watching really close friends of mine walk away from faith, like all of that came to a head. And that's where I bought the Domain when I was 25, so 16 years ago, the religion business. And I didn't know what it was going to become. And I continued to work in film and in commercials, and then I just started researching and that's when I realized the rabbit hole was huge. Oh, it's fast. It is bigger than, bigger than the US Military from a budget perspective. Yeah. Over a trillion dollars a year is given just to Christianity alone. And so you're talking about money that can sway government, it can sway the New York Stock Exchange, all in the name of Jesus.

[Julian]

That's what the most important thing is. It's all for Jesus. Real quick though, going back to that event, when you're 16, you said you grew up around religion, everything, so you had some form of belief. But then I guess the last thing you remember is pretty much like getting your brother off the quad.

[Nathan]

Yeah, I just remember throwing the quad away, just knocking him off. And I was just stuck on it and it just crushed me. So the dog, I got like brain scans for the next few years. I lost my driver's license and they did scans in my back and they're like, you should have broken your back in two spots, but you didn't. And I'm not a flexible guy, so they're like, whatever. I basically had folded my spine like backwards, you know, and so they're like, what? And so my, my lower back had like major problems for the next 15 years. But they're like, you should be dead on all, you know, accounts. And I walked away from it.

[Julian]

So when you first woke up from the coma, though, after two weeks, you know, well, I mean, you're growing at first, but once you're actually able to have a real conversation and they're telling you all this and you're comprehending it, and then you get a moment alone after that, Was that where it set in, where you put together the two things where, like, the doctor says that was a miracle and people were praying for you, and you're like, oh, my God, I see the light now? I understand exactly that this is real.

[Nathan]

Partially in that the biggest one is when my daughter was born. So, like, I. I have a very unconventional Christian life. I had a daughter, not married, you know, I got a girl pregnant, going straight to hell. Yeah. Yeah, I got a girl pregnant. And I didn't want to be a father, like, in my 20s. And in my 20s, I just. I had some fun. I traveled the world. I did. I did a bunch of drugs. I was just out. Like, I was a loose cannon, you know, And I made movies like Chicks Dig Gay Guys. And I. I worked on Temptation Island. Like, I. I was. I was just a dude living life, you know? And at that point, the church to me was just a bunch of heretics, and they were just, you know, selling things that they didn't believe. But I had my daughter, or my daughter came into the world when I was 32, so nine years ago. And when I saw her for the first time, like, it was the first time I understood what a creator's love feels like. And I just wept, like, just collapsed. And the nurse, who ironically, is my. My brother's mother in law.

[Julian]

Oh, I thought you were gonna say she was the wife.

[Nathan]

No, no. Tiffany's. Tiffany's. Amazing. But, yeah, she's like, do you want to hold your daughter? And I was just like, just like weeping, you know? And then I grabbed this screaming little redhead. She was just fiery. And that's when I was like, this is what I'm here for. Like, I'm here to better my. Better the world for my daughter and this next generation. And I want to teach her the idea of create. Why we're here and why we're created, you know, and we're not chance. And that's when everything became extremely real to me.

[Julian]

So that's a long, winding, many pieces and puzzles and different life events and different life series of whatever that even got you there. So that's very cool.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

But over to you now as well, Chris.

[Chris]

Yes, sir.

[Julian]

I Guess. Same question for you. First of all, how do you guys know each other? Let's start there.

[Chris]

So I, before the religion business, before I entered into it, Nathan's been working on this for, for a long time. I was the president of an HOA management firm, national company, and was. Exited that business. And I was thinking, you know what? I'm really sick of chasing the world. And so I had a friend of mine that I made and he was like, well, I've got a friend of mine who's a two time Emmy award winning filmmaker that's making this docu series called the Religion Business. And there's discussions about building a technology solution. And this isn't just a problem, he wants to also work on a solution. And he's. At this point in time, Nathan had like drawn a solution up and such. And so I'm like, okay, this is super intriguing because I don't want to be a part of just tossing a grenade into something.

[Julian]

Right.

[Chris]

And I had just, you know, I had just spent a good decade chasing the world and like my soul was completely empty, you know, And I was like, all right, it's time to pick up the cross and follow Christ, you know, and that meant putting my money, resources behind this. That meant putting my life at risk because I knew this was going to be absolute chaos. Anytime you disrupt a person's revenue stream, it's, it's dangerous.

[Julian]

Crazy that we're talking about that as it pertains to people who are preaching the word of God.

[Chris]

Yes, look at it. Look what happened to Christ.

[Nathan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julian]

You know, I don't really remember that part of the story about him owning arenas and having like 40 bedroom mansions and probably a lot of hookers around as well. Like, I, I must, well, there might have been one, but I, I must have missed a lot of part of that story. Or maybe, you know, Kenneth Copeland, those guys are onto something. But so you basically decide that there's been, and I'm gonna put words in your mouth, correct me if I'm wrong, there's been some form, at least on some level, of a bastardization of something that you hold very near and dear to your heart that you think should be used purely for good.

[Chris]

Absolutely. When you look at the results in the world and Christ says to take care of the sick, the poor, the marginalized, right. And you see a trillion dollar river flowing and pennies on the dollar go to those, and then the people that have anointed themselves as God's broker are living a fat life. You go something's not right here. Like, this river needs to get diverted. And so it became a mission to divert the river.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Chris]

To follow Christ.

[Julian]

Now, you guys, the. The trailer you guys have for the docu series you did, which, to be very clear, is separate from what I was talking about with Tommy G. You guys have a whole incredible documentary put together on this. We were just talking about it. But in the trailer, I loved the build up of. First, religion moved to Greece and it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome and it became an institution. Then it moved to Europe and it became a culture. Then it moved to America and became an enterprise.

[Nathan]

Yep.

[Julian]

Whoa.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Did you come up with that?

[Nathan]

No, that. That quote is actually a quote from the. He was the chaplain of the US Senate, so he. He literally told it on the Senate floor. And he goes, hey, guys, we got a problem.

[Chris]

Halverson. Was that his name?

[Nathan]

Yeah. Dr. Richard Halverson. Yeah.

[Julian]

Was he ever heard from again after that?

[Nathan]

I don't know. He did pass away. I was looking forward to. I was. I looked.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

I was like, I want to talk to this guy. But no.

[Julian]

Yeah. Well, that really hit it home, because something happened here, you know, and I'm so fascinated by history. I'm fascinated by all of it. And obviously, when you look at any level of ancient history, all these different religions, like, kind of converge, and they're all stories that give us a way of having meaning in the world, and people believe different things. But like I was saying, I think off camera with you guys, it's like, if people are using some sort of peace and belief in an afterlife and using it for good here, I think that's an amazing thing. And to be very clear, we're not talking about congregants today or people that a lot of them are being played as victims here. We're talking about some of the people who are doing that to them. I want to make that crystal clear because I know there's plenty of people listening who follow an organized religion. We're not trying to take that down or anything, but, you know, I'm amazed that something can get to that institution level as early as it did and have the staying power that it did. So maybe a good way into this would be like, obviously, you guys have covered the history of all Christianity and religions. You know, what happened that made the Church entrenched in the Vatican, you know, three, 400 years after. After Christ dies?

[Nathan]

Well, it's a. You know, it's a. It's a series of events. We always say humans will Human, right. So humans are really good at building things. We like to put things in order. We're like ants do the same thing. You know, everything's we. We work as a species to build things and box things in. Christ's message was straight counterculture. Like, when you look what he did to in Israel, he walked into the temple and he's like, you're all out of line. Like, you've built something that, like, was never meant to be built. And he talks about this in all the gospels. He says. He says you've taken traditions of men culture and you call it doctrine. So you take what you like today and you call it doctrine when it's not. So that's something that we really pinned to the board is we all these churches we have, this is all culture. This isn't doctrine. It's just What. What the 21st century looks like. And so when you look at that early church, I'm obsessed with the early church. And when I say the early church, from Christ on earth to like 100 A.D. because how did these few thousand people transform Rome? It'd be like me dropping 2,000 people in New York or Los Angeles and say, hey, with no weapons, right? With nothing. And just be like, transform this city. You couldn't do it.

[Julian]

No Internet either?

[Nathan]

No, no Internet, Yeah, Just by word of mouth and actions. That's the big one in actions. So how did these few thousand people transform Rome to the point where Constantine in early 300 goes, you know what? I'm going to join you guys. Like, that is crazy to think about that. I would say is ordained by something way bigger than humans. And so what were they doing? Well, as persecution was happening in those early couple hundred years against Christians, you know, at the peak of persecution, they were throwing kids, Christian kids and women to wild animals in the Coliseum. As for sport, just watching Christians be ripped to shreds. And then right outside the Coliseum, those same Christians were picking up orphans and widows off the street and bringing them in and sharing what they had and saying, like, you know what? We'll still love on everybody, even though they're being persecuted. So it was that love and that action, that love in action, that people were like, I'd rather hang out with them than hang out with you. Throwing kids to the wolves. Because we are literal barbarians. And they, through Christ's message and Christ's teachings, were literally transforming. Barbie were taking us from barbarism and barbarians to humans, saying, hey, Julian, your life has equal value to mine. And like, one of my favorite guys that We've worked with. Is a camera operator, and he's an atheist. And he went with me all over. He went with me to Uganda. He probably shot a third of the show. What ended up on camera. And he goes, nathan, even though I don't believe in your Jesus, like, from a spiritual perspective, he transformed the world. Like, he goes. He goes. Our roads are because of his teachings. Our hospitals are because of his teachings. Like, whether I believe he's the son of God or just this great man in history, like, I have to wrestle with who that man was. And. And that's such a great thought exercise for anybody, is this man was a historical figure. He was murdered by the Romans. And so. Okay, how. Or by the Jews. And.

[Julian]

We get 20 minutes.

[Nathan]

Well, I got to correct myself. A lot of people want to correct me lately. So. So how did this one man who was killed by, you know, transformed the room.

[Julian]

Don't play that sound effect.

[Nathan]

And so that, you know, you look at Rome and what. What did. What did. What's his Constantine do? He's like, man, my people, about 10% of the population was becoming Christians at that point. And he's like, I want to adopt this. It's a good glue to bind my empire together. Right as Rome is fracturing at that point. He's like, christianity is a good. A good, you know, moral philosophy to bind everybody religion, but we run it. Exactly. So. But what does he do? All the money that was going towards paganism and polytheistic gods at that point started steering towards Christianity.

[Julian]

That's right.

[Nathan]

And so now you have these Christian leaders going, ooh, we could use some of that money. And so I want to be really clear here. Hospitals, orphanages, universities, all these things are distinctly Christian. There was no such thing as a hospital before Christianity. There was no such thing as an orphanage. The word didn't even exist.

[Julian]

I think I knew the orphanage one.

[Nathan]

Yeah. There was no such thing as universities. Those are all created by that neck, by saints. And so Christianity was creating these brilliant institutions for people, right? For the orphan, for the widow, for. For the sojourner, for, like, for the hungry. So Christianity needed resources to create these institutions. But we always say in the show, at what point does the institution disease the organism of Christianity so much that now it's just an institution bastardizing the organism, which is Christ and his church, which is just his people.

[Julian]

As a quick sidebar on that, do you think it's possible that you can start something and not have it be infected? Something good, doesn't matter what it is I'm not even saying religion itself. Let's not make it about religion. Do you think you can start something and say, wow, this is an amazing thing, could be planting a shrub or whatever. And then is there a way that that shrub doesn't eventually grow out of control beyond looking good?

[Nathan]

Well, it dies. So this is the kicker is when you look at Christ's life, whether you believe he's the son of God or not, whether you believe he raised, was raised from the dead or not, look at the storyline. It's. Something's born, something dies. And out of that death, something resurrects. Everything has to die before it becomes corrupt and diseased. Just like a government. It's sick, everything's cyclical. That's why time, like, that's why death is so intriguing to me, because things resurrect out of it. A great example is like Gateway Church in Dallas, right? Gateway was run by Robert Morris or founded by Robert Morris. He's sexually abused a 12 year old girl. That comes out finally and now his church is one of the biggest in the, in the United States. Tens of millions of dollars flood into it every year and he's gonna probably end up in jail for, for a long, long time. But the leadership of that organ, that church is going to, we can't let it die. There's too much good here. Let's save it. And it's, no, no, it should die. It's diseased by its founder. Let the, let this Gateway church die. All of its congregants, all those tens of thousands of people that are trapped with their money, will go into their communities and start something new. So I agree with you, actually everything has to die or reform. There's no, there's no ifs, ands or buts about it.

[Chris]

It needs, it needs light. So the religious system today is the darkest system that exists. There's two types of nonprofits. You have a secular nonprofit and a religious nonprofit. A secular nonprofit turns what's called a Form 990 into the IRS. So there's some sort of transparency there. It's not perfect, but there's a document that could be held accountable to. Religious organizations have zero obligation to turn any of that in. So it is impossible for humans to not get corrupted and be in this system taking donations from people and living in this world and competing for consumers because they're competing for consumers and not get corrupted. It's the same thing as politicians going out there and trying to raise funds. If you're a career politician, likely you're going to get corrupted over a period of time if you're a career pastor in this dark system. But if there's transparency in there and you're walking in the light, your. Your chances of getting corrupted because of what, what you're scared of the accountability aspect of it, you're going to do the right things.

[Julian]

Can you, can you explain that more, if you don't mind? So you said that the secular organizations is a Form 990.

[Chris]

Correct.

[Julian]

Religious organizations, they don't have to give anything.

[Chris]

They don't.

[Julian]

What do they give to? They have to formulate as a religious organization, though. Right. So what is, what is that?

[Chris]

Nathan will dive into this because there's a whole checklist and everything that goes into that.

[Nathan]

You mean from a structural perspective, like.

[Julian]

Let'S start at the structure.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

So we'll come back to the Vatican, people.

[Nathan]

Yeah. Jul. Julian's about to start a church, you know, and not gonna do that. All you got to say is, I want to start a church. Have you. Do you guys watch the office ever?

[Julian]

That's gonna get clipped back. So we're not done.

[Nathan]

Yeah. Do you ever watch the office?

[Julian]

Yeah, the office.

[Nathan]

So Steve Carell, you know, he walks out of the office and he goes, I declare bankruptcy. And they're like, that's not how it works. That's pretty much how it works with a church. You can say, I want to start a church. And because you are starting a church, you're a church. So you file corporate documents with the state and you say, I am church of Julian. You can immediately start collecting donations and the IRS doesn't even know you exist.

[Julian]

The IRS doesn't know I exist?

[Nathan]

Nope. Because you do not have to file for nonprofit status. If Chris is a secular nonprofit, he has to request through lots of due diligence to become a nonprofit and get tax exempt status. Sometimes it takes a year or two, and then the government might even not grant him 501c3 tax status. But because you're a church, just by you saying a church, Steve Carell, I am a church. You're a church. The IRS does not need to grant you that. So you can start collecting money immediately without the IRS even knowing you exist. Now, if you want to give your donors tax write off receipts, then you need IRS 501C3 classification. But since you're a church, they don't look into you, they just grant it to you.

[Julian]

Whoa.

[Nathan]

And so that's why anything can be a church. You have hedge funds as churches. Hell's Angels is registered as churches. You have marketing firms registered as churches. You have. There is a talent agency, like a movie talent agency, that's registered as a church.

[Julian]

Which one?

[Nathan]

I don't have the name offhand. It's hilarious.

[Julian]

It's not wma, right?

[Nathan]

No. Are you repped by W. Me? Oh, there you go. Shout out. Yeah, but, yeah, there's. You can register anything almost as a church today.

[Julian]

How did the Hell's Angels slip through the cracks here?

[Nathan]

I feel like that's actually.

[Julian]

That's low hanging.

[Chris]

They're legit by the checklist.

[Nathan]

Yeah. I give massive props to Hell's Angels. You want to know why? Because they check off more of the 14 points than most religious organizations.

[Julian]

What are these 14 points? Sounds like a gang war, but.

[Nathan]

So the 14 points, I can't list them all, but it's. It's. You need a formal code of doctrine, which is, I believe in the Hell's Angels. You need creed in form of worship, which is, I will die for my brand or for what I believe in. I'll put them above family. You need a facility to worship in, so you need a physical building. They have bars? No, they have actual clubhouses. This room, Julia, they have clubhouses. You need to meet at least once a month. They meet once a month. And so when I look at the Hell's Angels, they will. And I've talked with George Christie, like, I've talked with a bunch of them. They believe their creed, and they will die for their creed. Most Christians today, I don't think will die for their creed, bro. And so when I look at the Hell's Angels. You're a religious. You are a religion. Now, granted, we might debate the moral side of it, but. But to you, to what you are, you are a religion. And you deserve to be a church because you check the boxes more than most of the massive cookie cutter. We'll call them entertainment venues of churches today. Like those men and. What do they call their wives? Old ladies. Those men and old ladies will die for their creed. And who's to say you can't. Who's to say that's not a religion?

[Julian]

So you file out these 14 points.

[Chris]

You don't have to hit all of them.

[Nathan]

Yeah, it's a checklist. You're basically like, I. I.

[Julian]

All right, so who's checking this? Like, Diane in accounting? Like, looks good to me.

[Nathan]

Nobody. It's just through precedent. This is. This is the irony of it. It's. You don't. Since. Since in the US the IRS cannot legally define a church because of the First Amendment, anything goes. But so they use this 14 point checklist. And then they also have what's called an associational test. And as long as you sort of kind of look like a church, you're sort of kind of a church. And then the crazier part, which a lot of people got hung up on, which on the Sean Ryan interview, is that box, that 14 point box that gives you tax exempt status. Every single religion has to climb in there to really receive tax exempt status. Christianity climbs in there, Islam climbs in there. Hell's Angels climb in there. So everything's starting to look the same. You know, you have to check the box. And so you have to say, why would some that box be created in the first place? Which is a fascinating conversation.

[Julian]

Yeah. What is the history there of. Of the 14 points even becoming a thing? Like, how far back does that go?

[Nathan]

The 60s. So it's not that old.

[Julian]

That was a hell of a time.

[Nathan]

Yeah. And. And then since then, that's what like, you got to look at it. So I'll just say this. The CIA was formed in the 40s. The 14 point checklist was formed in the 60s based off of a lawsuit. There was a church that had a winery and a distillery, and they were running it like they were basically selling wine business. That's right. And so they got into a lawsuit because I think it was the federal government. I can't remember if it was the Fed or the state. I could pull up the court case for you, but they said, you are not a church. You're selling liquor. You can't be a church. And so the judge basically used the Salvation army and said, okay, I'm going to use the Salvation army to prove you're not a church. Because the Salvation army is kind of one of the most well known churches in the US that was a church. Yeah.

[Julian]

Salvation Army. I never knew that.

[Nathan]

So the Salvation army became the blueprint for organized religion in the 60s. And the judge basically said, okay, there's 14 things that we're going to pull from the Salvation Army. This is what we're going to call a church.

[Julian]

Wow.

[Nathan]

That's where it came from. And then flash forward, you know, 10 to 15 years, and then all of a sudden you have the Jim and Tammy Bakers of the world raising a couple hundred million bucks, you know, rolling around in the Rolls Royces, because, hey, I checked this box. I checked these 14 boxes.

[Julian]

Whoa. Yeah, that escalated quickly then.

[Nathan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julian]

And you add in mass media, which allows people to get much farther, which We'll. We'll talk about today, but. So you just check these off and then you become an invisible man, effectively, technically.

[Nathan]

Yeah. Like, you don't even. Again, to Chris's point, you don't have to check them all off. You only have to check some of them off.

[Julian]

Now, I'm. My memory is a little hazy here because it's been a while. We're going to be doing another Scientology podcast sometime soon. But I've done four in the past with ex Scientologists and people who cover Scientology, and they've walked me through it before. But there was an enormous, like, war between the IRS and Scientology for a while where I believe it was a. Maybe I'm incorrect in remembering this. They were trying to argue that Scientology is not a religion, and then Scientology was able to continue to stand as a religion and not to defend Scientology at all. I think those people are crazy. But there is a. If we're going to say the Hell's Angels are passed through as a church, I would say that by. If you're just looking at the 14 points, like, Scientology is probably much more of a church than they are. So how did that become a thing where they were getting. If I'm in fact, remembering that correctly, where Scientology was getting attacked by the government and being told like, hey, you may not be able to be a church anymore.

[Nathan]

All I know is they lost their tax exempt status for a little while and then got it back. Yeah, I haven't done that much research on Scientology just because it's out there. And I'm like, you know what? I want to focus on, like, what I would call the legit faiths. I got you Christianity, Islam. The ones that actually. That their founder didn't say, hey, if you want to get rich, start a religion. You know, I. I don't think. What's his name who founded Mormonism. I don't think Joseph Smith said that. He was. Matt might have been thinking it when he pulled up those nice golden tablets.

[Julian]

But, you know, but.

[Nathan]

But he was. He didn't come out and say it. And so, you know, L. Ron Hubbard said that. He's like, if you want to get rich, start a religion.

[Julian]

All right, now, going back to what we were talking about with the initiation of the institution, though, you were taking us through the history and how Constantine ends up saying, you know, 10, 15%, my population's Christianity. Looks like those people are people you can look up to. We can use this. We're going to therefore start moving funding towards that. They have the Council of Nicaea. This all ends up becoming a thing. And the Vatican forms. And the Vatican is. Is this like, oh, it's so fascinating. It's. It's such a strange, strange institution that it's still the way it is. I used to live, like a quarter mile from the Vatican when I lived in Rome. And at the time.

[Nathan]

What were you doing in Rome?

[Julian]

I was studying there when I was in college. And at the time, I'd like to, you know, go on my walk past the Vatican, be like, oh, cool, it's the Vatican now. I'm like, oh, my God, there's so many secrets of the world in there. I wish I knew all that when I was there. But how. How did the Vatican form out of that? Like, what is the exact history of it forming, you know, post Council Nicaea? And then how did it continue to be the powerful institution that it clearly still is today? And that's kind of like the head of the snake when you're looking at religious power structures, if you will.

[Chris]

Well, they're not the wealthiest.

[Nathan]

I was gonna say that might not be the head anymore. The snake.

[Julian]

Okay.

[Nathan]

I can't, Like, I'll speak to what I know about the Vatican, so. Or what I've been, what I've got, gotten to sit with. With historians. So it's really simple, you know, in three. In 312 or 315, at that point. Constantine's a Christian, you know, and ironically. Do you know about his faith conversion?

[Julian]

Refresh me.

[Nathan]

So there was. They were in battle. And he believes he saw a cross in the sky with the words conquer by this. So let that sink in. He's in war killing people. And he reads in the sky, conquer by the cross.

[Julian]

Jesus liked killing people.

[Nathan]

So I'm just gonna set that out there for Constantine's conversion. But so it's like, from. From what I gather and what I've been told from historians, it's really simple. There. There's no organized structure. Right. When he becomes a Christian. But hey, if you're the bishop in Rome, you know, Constantine comes to my church now. So guess what? Like, my church might get a new building. You know, Constantine's going to sit in the front row. It's. It's. We always say, good intentions pave the way to hell.

[Julian]

Yes.

[Nathan]

It's like he. You have. You have Constantine sitting in your front pew. Like, all of a sudden, your church just becomes the church that's great clout. And then it slowly starts to grow and build, and then flash forward, you know, 1200 years and you're sitting at the Reformation and you know that's the Vatican's in Rome and the basilica's built and you know, all that power just starts to like codify at the top just over hundreds of years. And so it's again, good intentions paved the way to hell. I don't think Caesar or Constantine or that early church bishop or whoever it was like had ill intentions. It's just like you said, we build things. I don't think anything we build cannot corrupt. Eventually.

[Julian]

Right.

[Nathan]

And so it's just, it became this, it was organic and then it slowly institutionalized and that, that disease, that virus of institution inside Christ's message culminated in, in the 1500, you know.

[Julian]

Yeah. And before we get to the actual Protestant Reformation, though, I always, it's come up before on different podcasts in different contexts, but it's, it's always been fascinating to me that the church then also centered around like just all guys running it. When Jesus surrounded himself with both men and women, obviously his, his apostles were all men, but he, there was nowhere where he was like, there's only guys are gonna take my ministry. And yet there's like this boys club that forms, no pun intended there, you know, with the Vatican. That still persists outside of the little bone they throw like nuns these days, you know, but it still persists 1700, 1800 years later, whatever it is. That has never really made sense to me other than at the beginning. There's something, even if it wasn't intended this way, that's slightly sinister and power grabbing. Am I crazy to, to make that leap there?

[Nathan]

No, I think it's cultural, right. You look back, like women were basically property back then, you know, that's why Christ obsessed about widows. Because if you're a widow, you're worthless at that time, right. Like your husband's dead, your husband, your husband is the head of the house of that time period, if that makes sense.

[Julian]

They wouldn't get remarried back then.

[Nathan]

Some could, but I mean like an old 80 year old woman is just a liability at that point. Right. And so like same thing with children, you know, orphans. There was no value to life at that time. If, if, if my wife had a baby and we couldn't afford it, we'd just throw it on the side of the street and let it die. Right? That's what culture was. It was, it was barbarism back then.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

And so there wasn't this amazing sense of equality between men and women that there is today. So I just think that's baked into the system too. And then Paul speaks to it in his letters. You know, there's a couple lines in the, in the New Testament, in Paul's letters where he speaks about men and women in that power structure. But it's, that's what the entire boys club has built its tenants on, which is a few lines from Paul. And then what I would more lean on is just what was happening at culture at the time. Just like tithing, right? This act of giving 10% or a tithe translates to 10%. It's like that was cultural and somehow cultural. It wasn't. It was, it's in the Bible. But what I'm saying is this isn't an ordained idea from Yahweh, our creator, if that makes sense. Polytheistic nations were tithing.

[Julian]

Quick question. Why wouldn't it be if it is in the Bible? And to be clear, I don't agree with tithing. But if it is in the Bible, why isn't it considered ordained?

[Nathan]

Well, there's, there's purification rituals. Like should we be slaughtering animals to this day? Like.

[Julian]

Yeah, I mean, I agree.

[Nathan]

That's what I'm saying. So. But what I'm saying is there was other cultures of the time that weren't Jewish that were tithing polytheistic nations in that, in that region. Okay, so think of it as like today. I always say most governments collect a tax, right? Most religions back then or faiths collected tithe. And there's really simple ways because in Israel it's politics and religion combine. The Mosaic laws were their legal structure to organize as a civilization. So today we live in America where religion and politics should be separate. But so tithing back then was more of a taxation. And again, it wasn't just Jewish, like multiple civilizations were tithing. It was basically taxation. So that's what I'm saying is it was a cult. Tithing was a cultural marker, just like inequality between men and women were a cultural marker. And so those have just kind of leaked through religion and Christianity in particular. Today Islam collects the same. I think it's 2 or 3%. Sure. But they do the same thing. Right? It's just, it's just, it's been cultural and it's just passed down through precedent.

[Julian]

I guess on a modern day level, at the base level of it, how do you, without forcing people to give ties or give donations or whatever, how does a church or any religion, don't care what it is, exist and have a, you know, a physical piece of real estate to go worship in and you know, Jobs covered so that things get done and you know, the, the events, whether it be a mass or whatever insert event here can happen. How does that happen without money?

[Nathan]

Oh, it needs money with that.

[Julian]

That's what I'm saying.

[Nathan]

Yeah, yeah. So we're, we're not. This is something about the religion business. Money's not inherently bad. I could put a hundred dollar bill on the table and that thing has. The only value of that hundred dollar bill is what you and I give it. Yeah, there's.

[Julian]

Roll it up and put a little line right there.

[Nathan]

Exactly. There's. There is.

[Julian]

Chris looked like he took a trip down memory lane right there.

[Nathan]

There is no intrinsic good or bad to that, that monetary value sitting there. It's just what you and I bring to the table in place on that. I can't wait to meet with a pastor. And we haven't been able to sit with one yet that just says, yeah, my operation costs X and Y and it is given through the generosity of donors because they enjoy what we've created. Awesome. Just like, guess what? I take my daughter to history museums and I put my little donation in the front because I want this history museum to stay open. Right. But what they've done is we've built, or what we've done because I'm a part of this, is we've built systems that are extremely money hungry. And so we look back in the Bible and we cherry pick one or two scripture verses and we mash them together and we say, aha, this is where we're going to get our resources from. Well, you threw out the other 50 pages that explained what that verse actually meant. You know, and so we've built institutions off misunderstood or misrepresented or straight up bastardized scriptures. And now we're trying to justify it. And so you're trying to justify something that's just culture. Every other pastor I talk with is trying to justify something that's just culture. Sean Ryan, like in his, in our conversation, he was trying to justify it. And I'm like, it's not necessarily bad, the building itself, but we're justifying something that we've built. It has nothing to do.

[Julian]

So you want to. And, and I mean this in, in a not negative way. You're like, we got to cut out the middleman here. We've created a middleman. This is supposed to just be like, you have a belief system. And if I'm referring to Christianity that believes in like God and Jesus.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

And that's what the church is as opposed to like this physical business structure that, that we put between it that has its people representing it, if you will. 100 people that run it.

[Nathan]

100. Nowhere in the Bible does it say there's a middleman.

[Julian]

Right.

[Nathan]

That the biggest one today is, is stewards the resources. Or I like. I like it. Pastors will say, I'll invest the resources. We'll invest the resources for God. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that middleman is between you and God.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

So we've positioned ourselves there and now we're trying to justify it.

[Chris]

So Jesus says, render to Caesar what Caesar's. So he's actually saying, like, pay your taxes. And then he says, give to God what's God's. So where is man to come in there and say, this is God's money.

[Nathan]

I want to steward it for you, Julian.

[Chris]

And then in Matthew 25, Jesus, God incarnate, saying that if you, if you do to the least of these. And he's talking about the prisoner, the sick, the person who doesn't have a shirt, right, the homeless person, he's talking about all these poor, marginalized people into the least of these. You do to them. You're doing it to me. And that's a very powerful scripture which is on Nathan's forearm for a reason. Because if the money's not flowing that way, we're all for generous giving. There needs to be transparency there.

[Nathan]

100.

[Chris]

If the money that you are saying is for God isn't going to where God called you, calls us to put that money, then what are we doing?

[Julian]

I think if, if you are unwilling to share those details as a hypothetical pastor, let's say, then you have something. The assumption is you have something to hide.

[Chris]

100%.

[Julian]

And I completely agree that these places, if you are going to have places where people have an outlet to go bounce things off other people of their faith and have a safe place to practice their religion. Yes, there has, in my opinion, there has to be some money that goes into that to be able to allow that to happen, including the people who work there. But it should be like, it should be law in this country, that you have to be transparent about that, just like politicians allegedly have to be transparent about who donates to them. Why should it be any different if a church enjoys all the IRS rights and the separation from power, being able to take them out, Shouldn't a requirement of that just be like, hey, we can't tell you what's right or what's wrong, but you at least if you make $2 million, you have to tell people you make 2 million. If you make $2, you have to tell people you Make $2. Like, why is this so hard?

[Nathan]

Well, the government saw this problem in the late 60s and early 70s. So right after that 14 point checklist comes out, bad players are starting to move into the space. And so I think the senator's name in Don't Hold Me to the Fire was, is Mark Hattie. Senator Mark Hatley or Hatfield. But he puts together, what was it? Hatfield. He puts together a, basically a bill and it says, hey, this is getting out of hand. We have a mouse sized problem right now. We have the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakers of the world, like starting to raise hundreds of millions. And this is because of technology, right? So they build this, they put this bill together and it's basically, hey Julian, if you have a church or Nathan has a church and Julian wants to give to my church, all it was was Julian has the right to ask Nathan where the money is going and see the books. Yeah, that sounds pretty reasonable.

[Julian]

Sounds reasonable.

[Nathan]

It's like, hey Julian, you've retired. You want to give me $500,000? Hey Nathan, just show me your budget for the last year where it went. Well, this is where this idea of separation of church and state comes to play is the evangelical community is all pissed about this. They're like, we don't want the government telling us what to do or telling Nathan that I have to show Julian my books. And so Billy Graham and a couple evangelical leaders get together and they create another organization called the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. I love those words. Evangelical Counsel for Financial Accountability. They spin it up. It's another nonprofit and the goal is, hey Julian, if you have a church, you can be part of my, my, this, this accountability association. And I'm going to make sure you're above board. Well, the problem is, guess what, I have overhead as the ecfa and so you're going to pay me once a year for to use my little, my little seal on your website or on your mailers and looks good. I'm gonna hold you accountable. So it's a conflict of interest right away. My organization is supposed to be holding you accountable and you're paying me money. So that's not a watchdog group, that's like a handshake group.

[Julian]

If I not to defend this at all, but if people open their eyes, myself included, this is something I missed a lot on and looked at all the different industries around the world where this type of thing is the practice for sure you would Never look at any product you ever bought.

[Nathan]

This the same 100%. Yeah. And so, but our argument is religion. And then the faith we believe in should be held to much higher standards than everybody else. And so the ECFA is formed, I think in 72, maybe 73. And that gets the government to back off. So the bill is dead on arrival, and boom, the ECFA is formed. Another good intentions pave the way to hell, Right? So now we've got this institution that's supposed to regulate the entire Christian industry, and they're giving out these little. These little markers like hotcakes to everybody. Guess who is one of the first ministries to climb on board? Ptl, which is Jim and Tammy Faye Baker's ministry. They were one of the first to become an ECFA member. The dude went to jail for fraud.

[Julian]

When was that?

[Nathan]

He was jailed in the 70s. I can't remember the year.

[Julian]

Yeah, I'm not really familiar with that story.

[Nathan]

Yeah. So basically, back in the day, mailers were a big thing, right? It was before pre Internet TV was around, but like, mailers were a big thing. My grandma, till her death probably, you know, five or eight years. Five or eight years ago, would still receive envelopes from pastors and ministries all around the US asking for money, and she would put a check in and mail them back. It's just a generational thing because that was. You could have steal that before.

[Julian]

You should put it in the mailbox.

[Nathan]

No, I should have. Well, she wrote the pastor's names on them.

[Chris]

That's the problem.

[Nathan]

But you know what I mean. So this is a. This is a. A generational deal. But. So these guys would send out 100,000 mailers or 500,000 mailers, depending on how big their list is, and they would get X amount back with cash. And I can't remember, I think it was Barry and Pete at the Trinity Foundation. They said the average mailer would come back with $60 in it. That doesn't sound like a lot.

[Julian]

Add that up, though.

[Nathan]

But add that up a hundred thousand times in the 70s, you're talking about a lot of money. So all you do is you blast one mailer out a month and boom, X amount comes back with 60 bucks on average. And you're raising, I think, PTL on average, one year. Their budget was like $140 million for a church. And they were building a Christian theme park. A water theme park? Yeah, yeah, a water park. Hotels, like, all under the guise of a church with no accountability systems in place.

[Chris]

So did Copeland get that idea from them, or did they get that idea from Copeland? Which. Which. Whose idea came first? Because Copeland had a similar idea. Yeah, I think it's.

[Nathan]

You know, it's what. It's. It's when you. When you put on these conferences, you know, and you get the top 500 pastors in the US in a room, and they all start talking about what they want to do. And all of them are like a hotel.

[Chris]

Exactly. And you're gonna come with me.

[Nathan]

I think it's just brainstorming, you know, Again, good intentions pave the way to hell. Like, why don't we build a hotel on our church property where people. People can come. And my goodness, I'm gonna pipe in my face 24 hours a day on those TVs for you to learn the Bible from me, not read it yourself, but from me.

[Julian]

Isn't Kenneth Copeland also, like, 5 foot 6, too?

[Chris]

He's a little guy.

[Julian]

Yeah, that's part of the problem.

[Nathan]

I've never seen it. He. I've never seen it. He won't get close to me.

[Julian]

My buddy Matt, he's got a huge head, though.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Super dope. He looks like a. He looks like an alien. I mean, we're.

[Julian]

I would go a step farther. I don't even. I'm not even one to believe in this stuff. Maybe you are with. With. With your religious background, but, like, if there were a demon on Earth, like, that's it. That's him. Like, he literally looks like it. But what really strikes me about that guy. I think we should talk about that, because that's. I mean, he's a huge megapaster. He's someone that. The research you guys did on him was insane.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

We have a map of his whole compound. Physically, I thought it was like you were about to invade fucking Kandahar. But this guy. What really struck me about his setup and his initial promises, and I'm gonna have you talk about that in a minute. But I was thinking about what he does, and then the. The pressuring that he does of people now in his ministry.

[Nathan]

And.

[Julian]

And I could not formulate a difference between that and Scientology. Except Scientology, like, isn't leading with Jesus Christ. This one supposedly is. It was the same thing. Everyone seemed brainwashed. He had security around him. They didn't want cameras there. They told people to watch what they say in church because you never know if you're being recorded. They. They play these infomercials where they tell them about all the great stuff they're doing and then make sure you give your Money like almost on a loop, Right. Repeat. They got gift stores that are going to help them improve in their life so that they can go buy things to try to make more money that they can then give to the church. He lives on a compound with a mansion. He's got an airstrip. There's private areas that are completely blocked off and gated. And they don't let anyone on, let alone people who pay the ties. Including Tommy, who was nice enough to give him 69. Gave him a $69 donation. Can't get on the airstrip. But like, is there any difference there between him and. And Elron Hubbard?

[Nathan]

They all are starting to F. MLMs, right? Multi level marketing. They all look like a multi level marketing company. It's. And it's not rocket science when you start having businessmen and women be like, move into powers of position at religious organizations. They're going to run it like a business. And the best business to scam people is MLMs. Like, and so you can overlay an MLM like structure almost onto every Scientology. Mega churches and non denominational like big church. Anything that looks to scale because you have to get buy in. Right. And so it's. I would say Scientology and Kenneth Copeland run very similar. And they're both, they're both MLMs. You give to me because I am prosperous, which will make you prosperous. And if you don't give enough, it's because you got to give more, you know, and also bring your friends to do the same thing. Yeah.

[Chris]

You know, I think it's more disgusting because they're using our savior's name.

[Nathan]

Well, of course.

[Chris]

I mean like, from, from that, from that standpoint. And like the greatest. Great. In all my years of business, the greatest form of sales is needs based selling. You have a need and if the person doesn't have a need, you create the deed. And how do you do that? You instill a tremendous amount of fear in them. You're going to be removed from God's list of children if you don't tithe.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

You are not going to be protected on the day of vengeance if you don't tithe.

[Julian]

And if you do, I'm going to sell you a plot of land in heaven.

[Nathan]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Julian]

Which I wish were fake, but that was a real thing. Someone did try to do that. Yeah, it's, that's, that's, that's a great point. It goes back to basic, basic human functionality. You look throughout history that explains everything that's happened in society. You look at anything evil, that's Ever happened. It starts with being fed on with fear. Now, does that mean that there, you should never have something to fear or there isn't legitimately, sometimes something in the world that's like, that is scary. We need to pay attention to that. No, but there's like lines with stuff and when you blur those lines, especially like you said, and you're doing it in like the name of Jesus, I don't know that there's anything lower.

[Nathan]

Well, let's do the ten Commandments.

[Julian]

Okay.

[Nathan]

Don't take the Lord's name in vain.

[Julian]

Right.

[Nathan]

What do you think?

[Julian]

Sorry, my bad.

[Nathan]

No, no, what do you think that means? What were you taught?

[Julian]

I've been breaking it all day today. But yeah, it means, like not saying it, you know, like saying the name out loud in a way that's negative.

[Nathan]

No.

[Julian]

Oh, I'm wrong.

[Nathan]

No. So, yes, the Bible says your tongue is like a double edged sword. You know, you want your words to edify the Lord, but don't take the Lord's name in vain means don't build your own vanity off the name of the Lord.

[Julian]

Taking it another level up.

[Nathan]

Yeah, don't. Like my own vanity would be, hey, I want to build a church and give me your money because God told me to do this, I am literally using the Lord's name for my own vanity.

[Julian]

Right.

[Nathan]

And so when you look at that commandment under that new light, you can look at almost every branded church today and be like, it's just, they're taking the Lord's name in vain in every aspect of the business.

[Julian]

Yes.

[Nathan]

Because you're using the Lord's name to build your business. And people could probably say the same thing about us, actually. Yeah, but it's like, it's, it's.

[Julian]

Why would they say that about you?

[Nathan]

That's the pushback we get is, hey, Nathan and Chris, how dare you sell your show? Or how dare you ask. Well, we don't ask people for money, you know, and we are. Our argument is always like, because, because basically they're saying, hey, you're telling pastors that they're abusing the system, and here you are abusing it.

[Julian]

You're monetizing.

[Nathan]

Correct.

[Julian]

Surrounding faith.

[Nathan]

Yes. And our argument is, well, we're a for profit business making goods. You don't have to buy our goods, but our business has overhead. Right. And we're not technically. Like, I'm not. And the big one is we're not.

[Chris]

Asking for donor dollars or manipulating scripture.

[Julian]

Or maybe you're giving them, you're giving them A product that's helping expose something else. And you're not trying to hold any. Any power over them as it pertains to what could or could not happen to them in the afterlife, which is effectively what religion can be used as a weapon.

[Nathan]

Yeah. So don't take the Lord's name in vain. Yeah, I never thought.

[Julian]

That's interesting. I did. I went to Catholic school too, growing up. I never thought about that.

[Chris]

You and me both, bro.

[Julian]

The second level, though, you know what I mean? Like, you always just thought of it like, I don't say Jesus Christ, something like that. But no, that's when. When you actually literalize it and go through what that could mean, like actually using that for a form of yourself, it gets interesting because to your point, all these guys do it. And this is what really doesn't make sense to me, you know, and that is if you actually read the Bible and read the example of the historical figure Jesus, regardless of what you believe, he was. Seems like a pretty cool guy. Seems like a guy who did a lot of cool stuff and was very good to people. And there, there's this theory that my friend Charlie Rocket came up with like seven years ago called the IMU theory. Have you ever heard this?

[Nathan]

No.

[Julian]

Apologies to people who have heard this, heard me say this on the podcast, but I have to explain it for you guys to understand. It's gonna make sense. But he was trying to. He was thinking one day about how, you know, there's all these superheroes, and he was wondering which superhero, across comic books, movies, TV shows was the highest grossing superhero of all time. So he Googles it and to his surprise, the answer was Spider Man. And he's like, that's interesting. I would have thought it was like Batman or Superman. Good looking guy, chiseled chin, you know, flies through the air or whatever. Instead, it's the guy who's more of your average looking schmo. Couldn't get the girl. Had a weird talent. Grew up in a lower class or lower middle class house. His parents were dead. He was raised by his aunt and uncle. He ended up losing his uncle in a tragedy that was his own fault. He was like, whoa, that's interesting. That guy's like relatable. He's not like this thing up here. So he said, all right, what's the largest religion in the world? By following Google's it? Christianity. He's like, okay, who led Christianity? Jesus Christ. Carpenter. Wore regular clothes, hung out with poor people, had a basic mom and basic dad. You know, he lived In a time where if he had ridden around on a golden horse with nice Roman armor, he would have had all kinds of people fighting following him. Instead, you know, he dressed more like everyone else and had his 12 apostles and occasionally gave a sermon. It's like, okay, what, what about, if this works for corporations, we're on to something. What's the most famous company of all time? He's like Apple, who led Apple. Steve Jobs, first guy to drop the suit as a corporate honcho, had a beard. He looked like your dad. And in a business where everyone named things Inspiron 6000 or Windows 48 million or whatever it was, he. He named his products Lisa, iPhone, iPod. Like, he named the products after you. And then he went to sports and he's like, who is the biggest mega sports star of all time? It's Michael Jordan. It's not because he had the most talent ever, though. He was very talented. It's because, like, now he's Jordan. He's this brand, he's this larger than life figure. But on his come up, this is a guy who was cut from his high school basketball team. He was put on North Carolina, won a national title, but got drafted behind Sam Bowie. You know, he had to come back from an injury early in his career. When he gets to the height of his fame, his father gets gunned down and he leaves and embarrasses himself on tv trying to play baseball, you know, going through like this midlife kind of thing just like everybody else. And so he put together, you know, superheroes, religion, corporations, sports culture. Throughout time, everyone relates to the people who are most like them and are telling them they're most like them, rather than these people that try to say, I'm above you. Look at me, look at me. Look at all these things I have on Instagram. Instagram, like my post, you're never going to have this. Which the. Which is the implicit recommendation, if you will, in modern culture. And so when I look at these mega pastors, they are literally doing the opposite of what Jesus did in his life, where they are trying to tell people, I'm so above you, I ain't even got to preach at this church anymore. Just give your money to my daughter and I'll show you when I'll show up, when I want to show up, and no problem. And to me, you have to be a sociopath to not look in the mirror and see that. I don't see any other outcome or, or possible explanation there. I should say, would you guys agree with that? Or, you know, Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Chris]

Definitely agree with it, Nathan. Read a book. It's called. Was it the Wisdom Psychopaths?

[Nathan]

Wisdom of Psychopaths.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And one of the top professions for a psychopath is clergy.

[Julian]

Wow.

[Nathan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris]

You find a lot of narcissists.

[Julian]

What were the other top professions?

[Nathan]

Lawyer, lawyer, doctor. You know, anybody in position of power. Basically. Yeah.

[Chris]

But you get a stage, right?

[Julian]

Yeah. You get a microphone. You feel good.

[Chris]

Power. Preaching the word of God.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Julian]

It's like I'm ordained to do this. You start to. You start to feel like you're him.

[Chris]

You're anointed.

[Nathan]

Yeah. You can use the word anointing, you know, and that's something I'm fascinated with, too, is, you know, a lot of these guys will say they're anointed. You know, don't touch the anointed. And I'm like, well, let's just look at it from the other side of the coin. You're just leveraging tax loopholes and the generosity of a vulnerable population, which I am that vulnerable population. Right. It's like, I want to deepen my faith. I want to connect with my creator. I want my daughter to do that, too. So it's like, had I not started down this journey, I would still be a part of that. So you're not necessarily anointed. You just have a really vulnerable population. And now, based off of misinterpretation of cultural. A cultural marker called tithing. And the Mosaic Covenants, now you have an endless supply of revenue as long as you have butts in your seats. I wouldn't call that anointed. You're just a good businessman or woman who's figured out the loopholes in the game.

[Julian]

Yes.

[Nathan]

And then you get to brand it as anointing. And now they say, hey, the better off you are, because what is a blessing? You know, it's like, a lot of these guys love to leverage the. The. The scripture, Malachi 3, where it talks about, hey, if you bring your full tithe into the storehouse, God is going to open up the windows of heaven and dump out a blessing on you. Well, in America today, we see that blessing is, what, money?

[Julian]

Y.

[Nathan]

It's all about money. We worship it. The Jews did not see that as money, necessarily. And those blessings are spelled out in the Torah. And then on the reverse side of this, which nobody talks about, is there's a set of curses.

[Julian]

So the set of curses.

[Nathan]

A set of curses. So the. The law. The. The Mosaic law is actually a curse. On the Jewish people. The Bible calls it this. It goes, you are a cursed nation.

[Julian]

Can you explain this? I never heard of this.

[Nathan]

Yeah. So basically Israel leaves Egypt. As the biblical story goes, Moses leads them out. They stop at Mount Sinai. Moses goes up to the top of Mount Sinai where he gets the Ten Commandments in a set of like 613 or 30 laws. I can't remember the exact total, but he comes down with all these laws that are the legal structure of Israel. And that law is a curse on the people. The, the, the Torah says this. It is a curse set of laws because it proves you can never live up to these laws. You'll never be able to. From purification laws to sacrifice laws, to tithe laws, to everything. And so it's a curse set of laws for a cursed people. And so they basically carry this yoke around them all the way through the, you know, their years in the wilderness. And then they get to the promised land, and now they have to live under this set of laws. But the laws are a curse that foreshadows the coming of the Savior, which is Christ, because Christ removes that yoke. He removes the law. He removes this binding legal structure that's been placed on, on the Jews. Is. That's how the story goes.

[Julian]

Wow.

[Nathan]

Yeah. And so, so literally there is a literal set. It's in Leviticus of, of blessings and curses. They're, they're numbered out. And so, but today pastors don't go back to that. They go, oh no, this is about money. No, it's literally written out in the Torah, but you don't want to reference it. And so it's just fascinating how again, when, when we, when we have a pastor that doesn't read the Bible line by line or a teacher that doesn't read you, like, when you go to synagogue, if you're, if you're Jewish, you will read line by line. There's no jumping around, you know, but pastors today, they'll just jump from Malachi to jump from Malachi to Leviticus to Matthew to craft their narrative that they want to craft.

[Julian]

You know what's amazing to me, I had in Captain Tazariac familiar with him. He was another Tommy documentary.

[Nathan]

Oh, nice.

[Julian]

So he is the leader of the black Hebrew Israelites in, in New York City. Wow. And obviously respect to Captain T, I think he's certainly bastardized the, I guess, interpretation of the Bible. But the one thing that I have to say, I could give him that I wouldn't give these other guys, as you're Pointing out right now is that I don't know that we've ever had a guy in here who knew, line by line, the Bible. Like, he knew it. He and, and Alessi my, who's now the head of content for what I do, but was the producer in here. He's like a huge God guy, like, goes to church like four times a week. And he was sitting over there, like, I'm like looking at him, he's like, yeah, you got that right. And it was like, funny how he's doing it, but it's crazy that someone who has changed it, I think not for the better, because I, I don't, I don't think we should enslave anyone, let alone, you know, everyone who's not a part of the Hebrew Israelites. But, you know, he at least could point to all these things. And then we're talking about some of these guys that run billion dollar enterprises and they're like, yeah, that chapter, don't worry about that.

[Nathan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Julian]

And someone asked him about it. Yeah, let me bring pastor here to answer your question. They bring security out. It's like, yeah, it's like, what, what, what movie dystopian reality are we living in here?

[Nathan]

Well, we've built, we've built enterprises to ourselves. This is this gentleman, I'll ask you the question. And then he has the greatest answer I've ever heard. So Christ calls his church the term, the Greek term is ecclesia, okay? And ecclesia translates to literally a gathering. So, and it's, it's a secular term. It's not a strictly religious term, but like, so a gathering at the Coliseum would be called an ecclesia. The ecclesia comes together, just people coming together. So Christ says, this is my body, is my ecclesia. So it's the people, right? So today we've built Bill, we've built institutions on top of him and his teachings, and on top of that, ecclesia. And now we say, hey, Julian, you and I are going to go to church. Well, if we are the church, we don't go to church. Like, we are the church. The church can gather, right? But so what do we call the buildings today? Because the church is not a location, right? We're not going to church. So what can we call, and I've asked probably a thousand plus people this question. What can we call the buildings with the stages and the childcare and the coffee and donuts and the air conditioning or heating, depending on where you're at? What can we call that? What's a term for it.

[Julian]

Like, you're asking me what I would call it.

[Nathan]

Yeah, because I, like, I don't know what to call it. Like, Charles Spurgeon, one of the greatest evangelists in England, back in the day, he called it a meeting or a meeting house. Like, we're going to the meeting. So what would we call it? Right?

[Julian]

The Jesus Center.

[Nathan]

The Jesus Center. There we go. So I'm talking to this guy who knows the Bible in and out, and he goes. And I asked him, and this is like two weeks ago, three weeks ago. And I'm like, dude, what do I call these things? Like, I don't know what to call them. And he nonchalantly goes, they're love dens. And I was like, they're what? What? I was like, yeah, they're love dens.

[Julian]

That could be misconstrued.

[Nathan]

I know. Well. Or not, but. But. So what are they love dens for? For ourselves. We built a stage where we see ourselves. We see, we. We stare at the stage. We sing songs that make me feel good. I get a cup of coffee and a donut for me. I drop my kids off into youth programs because I don't want to teach them the Bible. Man, that sounds awful. So we're going to tuck them over there. It's all about me. It's. I've built a love den to myself and to all of us. And we get to love on ourselves and do things for ourselves and say, hey, Julian, come join my love den. It's great in here. When Christ said the exact opposite, he said, go out. You're going to do dangerous things. You're going to be sheep among wolves. And so we've literally built a little safe haven with the comfiest accoutrements, for lack of a better term, of modern day. And we call it church. No, it's just all consumerism and it's all for ourselves. And then we'll say Jesus every now and again and pat ourselves on the back. And out you go. And I'm going to go out and repeat the same. The same sins I've been repeating for most of my Life. Where's that $100 bill? You know, it's like, that's the. And then I'm going to come in and repent on Sunday and do it again.

[Julian]

I remember there's just little moments you never forget that. Maybe at the time you're like, that was interesting. And then later you're like, oh, I remember going a Catholic mass, like, with my dad one time. I Had to be eight years old, nine years old. And the priest who was like, the guy there forever got up there, and for his homily, he was like, one of those old school, like, totally mailed it in. Irish guys just like, listen, I'm getting.

[Nathan]

Too old for this.

[Julian]

But he's like, listen, you know, the walls are falling apart. I can't even get two ushers back there. We're bringing the basket around. And he's literally saying it like this in, like, 20 minutes, you know, would $5 kill you? And this is, like the homily supposed to be interpreting what Jesus just said. And I'm perking up. I'm looking at my dad. My dad's like, this guy.

[Nathan]

Let's go.

[Julian]

But that always stayed with me because, like, as far as. When we're talking about extreme examples here, this was a very light example. Like, I don't think it was, like, that bad. But the fact that that's, like, worked into, like, a celebration, it's. I think it's literally called, like, the celebration of the Eucharist or whatever. Right. Which is supposed to be, like, the body of Christ.

[Nathan]

The.

[Julian]

Something like that is normalized. Institutionalized, if you will, in the middle of that. So that that guy who's been doing this for 50 years can just get up there like, it's a Tuesday, and say this line. And then, you know, a few people in there, like, all right, yeah, I.

[Nathan]

Can give some, but let's break that down. That's such a fascinating story. Like, why is this pastor so. Or this clergy so demoralized? Yeah, because he's having to pay. He's having to raise money for a building that's falling apart. And the Bible talks about this all the time. You know, everything rusts. And it's like he's having to raise money for this building that Jesus never told us to build. We come into this system, and I tip my hat. I even think Kenneth Copeland came into this system with good intentions.

[Julian]

You do?

[Nathan]

I'm going to tip my hat to him. I think he was trained under Oral Roberts, which Oral Roberts is like the OG Evangelist. Private planes and all that. And so that's just what he saw as this is what needs to happen. But I firmly believe he probably had good intentions to spread the name of Jesus. And so just like this guy, he had good intentions, and 50 years later, he's having to ask people for five bucks to plaster the wall. Right. You know, it's like, we've missed the mark. We've built the LDS church Literally calls them temples. But we've built buildings when we were never told to build buildings. Like Christ says, you are the temple, Julian. I am the temple. But we can't seem to get that through our heads. So instead, history repeats itself. We just revert back to what we know, which is, let's build a building. I said at the beginning, we like to build things. We're good at building things.

[Julian]

All right, let's break that down then. How else would you form and organize religion for the right reasons, right. Where you're trying to adhere to actual beliefs? Let's say, like, you really. It's 200 A.D. and you really. Or let's make it after the council Nicaea, it's 400 AD and you really believe in everything that happened to Jesus. You think he's the son of God, he's this amazing guy, and you want to follow this religion. We are naturally communal creatures, which means we want to come around other people who can relate to us on that level, which I think is perfectly fine. And, yeah, literally evolutionarily built into us. How else are you gonna do that if you don't have a set place to meet? Which what I'm getting at is, are you gonna sit in the park with four people and that's where you meet, or are you gonna have a nice, private. For lack of a better term here, like, safe place to be able to do this? Like, how do you. I don't. To defend the institution. I guess I don't see how you get around building a building, whether it be called a church or whatever you want to call it, but building a place where it's like, that's what this is for. I'm not really sure if there's another example of us doing that other than, you know, living outside our IRL on the Internet with people where that's the case. Where. Which even there, you build communities. You might build a discord or something like that. You know, it's like. It's like a virtual building. So how do you get around that?

[Nathan]

Well, Christ. One of my favorite lines from megachurch pastors is, Jesus had the first megachurch. And it's the stupidest thing ever, because there's stories in the. In the Gospels where Jesus, you know, thousands of people would follow him. And so the story of the fish and the loaves, right, I think there's 5,000 people. There was more. That was just the men that they had counted, but there's 5,000 people. So, yeah, that's a big gathering.

[Julian]

They didn't count the women, kids.

[Nathan]

No, they just don't count them. They don't count them back in the day. No, like I talked about, right. Culture. And so that is a huge gathering. They were together for three days, I think three days in the story. And then what happened? All those people dispersed back to their homes. So when, when megachurch pastors say, oh, Jesus had the first megachurch. No, he didn't. He just had massive ecclesias coming together sometimes. And then they'd all go back home and they might never see Jesus again. But so what does that mean? It means the home is where all this starts. Right. So a great example is a shepherd has to know. So the term pastor literally translates to shepherd. And the shepherd has to know their flock. So if you're taking like an animal, an animalistic look at shepherd and sheep, or shepherd and goat or whatever, you're going to intimately know every one of your sheep. And so when you look at a pastor today, I can't remember what book this is offhand, but you can only know about 100 to 120 people. That's all you'll know, Julian. Everybody else, you won't be able to know. You won't remember their names. Like it's. There's too much information. And so even the biblical number of a hundred, like, you know, the chef, the shepherd would leave the 99 to go find its 1. You can only shepherd a very small group of people. You can only pastor a very small group of people. Outside of that, I see what you're saying. You're just a speaker on stage. So we've created massive systems that are hyper expensive and none of it's biblical.

[Julian]

I think there's a huge difference. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, like, where you're going with this, but I don't think I am. Like, there's a huge difference between being a guest speaker that can inspire people and go around to different crowds and do that, versus actually setting up a home base and telling people to join your organization and saying that that means you get direct, direct access to you as a pastor.

[Nathan]

Yeah, but see, you. You said it right there. And this is a really interesting point. It's not your organization.

[Julian]

Right.

[Nathan]

Be mine. Right. Like there is. And again, the guy who told me about the love dens blew my mind because I've been working on this for 16 years. And he goes, nathan, you know there's only one church, right? And I'm like, what do you mean? And he's like, it's Christ Church. It's Christ Gathering. As soon as you hear someone say, come to my church, you've lost the plot. As soon as you put that name above the door, Ridgeline Church or Gateway Church, or you name it, you're a brand.

[Julian]

You've tm. TM on the end.

[Nathan]

Tm. Yeah, yeah. You've missed the mark, bro, because now you've created a brand new on top of Jesus, which has nothing to do with Christchurch.

[Julian]

Jesus might have had an Instagram. You never know.

[Nathan]

Maybe that's right. I tip my hat to the lds. You know, the Church of Jesus Christ. They get it. They're like, we got to tuck his name into this puppy. But it's like we've built brands and institutions. You even say it. Organizations. Like, we build an organization. Where does it say in the Bible, we build an organization? We don't. We just justify the need because we want to build something. Christ's church is an organism. And this is one thing that I love to visualize for people, because we see this in today. You know, a lot of pastors want to stand next to President Trump right now. You know, they want that photo up. Paula White, all of them. You know, they're paying money, and we know the business model. They pay money to get to stand next to President Trump and say, I'm part of his evangelical council or whatever. Faith council. Okay. When did Christ ever say, you know what, take me to Rome, I want to talk to Caesar. He didn't give two craps about Caesar. He cared about your heart, Julian. Like, he's like, caesar, do what you're going to do. You know what? Pay the tax. If he's asking for tax, pay the tax. If there's a poll tax, pay it. Stop complaining. Because why? Governments will come and go, but he goes, I care about the heart. He cared about humanity and people. And so what was that early gathering, that early body that transformed Rome? What Christ was is an organism. And he even says it. It's a body. I am the head and you are different parts of this body in the. Each part of the body has a unique purpose. So if it's. If it's really an organic, tangible body, it can move through things. It was never meant to be boxed in because it boxes structures, whether that be government, whether that be, you know, non profits, you name it. We build systems, rigid systems, and that body is supposed to be able to move through the systems, if that makes sense. So that's how Christianity transformed Rome. If it was a rugged institutional structure, no one would be picking those kids up off the streets. Those orphans and widows. No, we have structure.

[Julian]

Yes.

[Nathan]

No, Julian, come in. And this is great about the LDS Church. We're dropping a video today. You need help. Okay. There's. There's. There's structure you have to do. If you want my help, if you want our help.

[Julian]

That's what they say in Scientology.

[Nathan]

You got to follow the rules. Well, who made those rules? You did.

[Julian]

That's right.

[Nathan]

Jesus didn't. You did. And so we've built. We've boxed in the organism, like, to the point where it's chained. I always say it's chained to the pews. We've chained the organism to the pews of the church. Why? Because the church needs your money.

[Julian]

I don't know. I could see how this is something where. Let's take, for example, those mega pastors who go in and meet with their political candidate of choice, whoever it may be. I could see where those people, even if they know they're lying to themselves doing it, but I could see those situations where maybe they don't think they're lying to themselves doing it, where they say, well, Jesus didn't worry about Rome and then he got killed. So now that we've built a church around him and we feel like our values are being infringed upon or something, he would want us to go have our political say. And I'm not defending it. I mean, I. I am a true believer in separation between church and state and. And a respect in both directions.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

By the way, when I say that. But, like, I could see where that argument gets made there and the context changes because of how it. I guess, like, how Jesus's life went down and also how the world works now, where there's mass scale and global governments and. You know what I mean? Like, it's. It's a little different. Could you see what I'm talking about?

[Chris]

I know exactly what you're talking about. I think that's very much like human nature and when we analyze things. But when. When Jesus says, pick up the cross and follow me, he meant pick up the cross and follow me. That means mimic the. Mimic his behavior, his actions, his heart. So I think, like, as humans, we'll be like, we're trying to, like, hey, the story could have been a little bit different if Jesus had done this. Maybe we should do this.

[Julian]

A little revisionism.

[Chris]

Yeah. Be like, maybe if he was friends with the Romans, this wouldn't happen. Right. So we need to do that. And that's not, like, at the end of the day, that's not picking up the cross and following them.

[Nathan]

Well, you know, most of those early disciples were killed. I think if you were a bishop. I can't remember the exact year, but for the first 100 to 150 years, you had an 80% chance of being a martyr if you were a bishop. Yeah, I could see that 80% chance. That is a horrible business model. Not great if you want something to spread.

[Julian]

So if you make it, you should enjoy your wealth.

[Nathan]

Exactly. So when Christ says pick up your cross, that means everything comes with you, which means your life is no longer in your hands. If you feel led to do something, you will die for that belief. And that's why I said in the beginning, Hell's Angels is more of a religion, in my opinion, than most religions today is. The Hells Angels live and die by their creed. And I tip my hat to them whether I agree with their moral ethos or not. Like, they are true to their creed and form of worship. Christians aren't. We're. Dan Bramer in the show says people have faith in their faith in God.

[Julian]

People have faith in their faith in God.

[Nathan]

So what I mean by that is I put faith in the institution that I go to, that. That pastor's working, that the child care is teaching my children. Right. Because when you put your faith in the God of your faith, dangerous things happen. If I put my faith in Christ, which leads me to Yahweh. You read what those prophets did in. They were. Most of them were murdered. You know, read what, like how. How God had, like certain prophets walking out into battlefields where they were coming to kill them. Like it's. It's in God either protected him or he didn't. Like when. As soon as you put your faith in the God of your faith, things get real dicey.

[Julian]

Even today, though, even today, that. Yeah, I mean, I totally see the argument, especially, like, at the beginning of the church, like you're saying. I completely believe that number as well. You had an 80 likelihood to be mercked in the early days, but now where something like Christianity is followed by billions of people around the world. To be clear, there are places where people are literally getting killed for that right now. But let me focus on, like, the United States. It's the prom. Most prominent religion here at this time. Like, should. Do people still even have that in their lexicon that, like, oh, if I actually speak out about this deliberately, I could have the guns turned on me. I guess some people.

[Nathan]

I've got gums turned on me all the time. And I would say I'm trying to live out my faith in my creator.

[Chris]

It's dangerous.

[Nathan]

Let's say an LDS member. And I'm going to tip my hat to my LDS friends and our Mormons, the Mormons, our Mormon friends out there. Just think if you finally walked into your ward and said, hey, I'm not giving you my tithe anymore. I'm going to give it to the person who needs it down the street because you don't need my money. Even that small gesture is a dangerous gesture because guess what, you're going to lose your temple recommend card, which means, guess what, you don't get to get to the celestial kingdom.

[Julian]

I see. Like, yeah, okay.

[Nathan]

All of a sudden, guess what? That institution starts crumbling and cracking because we're now living out the tenants of our Savior. We put our faith in our God, of our faith, not the faith.

[Julian]

It's clocking for me now. So what you're saying is, like, you may still think you're putting your faith like, in God himself, but if you are changing any behaviors or working any of your behaviors around supporting this institution and doing that, I'm going to put a word in here in an almost robotic, just expected kind of way. Therefore, even if you think you're going directly to God, you are going through that middleman and there's a difference in what your faith is.

[Nathan]

Okay, 100. Got you. Yeah.

[Chris]

If we look at a lot of what's going on in the, in the world today, or just like Nathan says this brilliantly about this concept of culture becomes, becomes doctrine. Right. So like all, a lot of events that we've, we've happened, like, I'll go ahead and say even covet. Right. Like with everything, like the, the church, like a lot of churches were out there, like, let's, let's do this. The backs and like everything that was going on. Right. But no one was speaking out. I shouldn't say no one. A lot of brave people were speaking out. A lot of women were speaking out. But a lot of, like the, the, the representation of Christianity wasn't necessarily holding the line because it's very safe not to. It's very safe to be in this box. You're not going out in the world and putting yourself on the line. And you see that with all these movements that we have and within society, where are, where, where, where are the religious teeth? Well, they, they sold that with a 30 tax exemption when they got put into that box.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

So that's the, the lack of danger or danger if you Will.

[Nathan]

Yeah, yeah. Religion is fascinating.

[Julian]

It's, it's beyond. I mean, it's one of those things, like we're talking about one tenet of it today, which is, I mean, we're talking about a lot of history too, but we're focusing on how it's gotten to this point where it's this enterprise in America. But when you look through every era of religion and, and history, it is a rabbit hole that, I mean, if you wanted to make a YouTube channel on it, you'd be making videos today. You die. You don't even get a point 1% through it. I mean, it's, it's insane. But at the center of all this, and we said this a couple times today, but at least to bring it back around to them for the time being, like at the center of all this are people who are prayed upon right now, the people who go to Kenneth Copeland's church, for example, not every single person in there is someone who just, I'm gonna give some examples, who just recovered from being a heroin addict or, you know, just lost three family members in a blazing fire or insert something traumatic here. There are also people who, you know, have their normal life traumas, like we all do, but are kind of your everyday folks who make a decision to go there. And it is also not a reasonable expectation to just say, well, these people are stupid. I don't think that's fair at all. I think a lot of them are perfectly intelligent people. I think we all have some sort of blind spot when it comes to being psychologically manipulated. I am no different. You're no different. It's just how it is. But what do you think it is for those people, the non traumatic event, People who go to a place like Kenneth Copeland's church and give money to them every week, whatever percentage it is of their paycheck, and continue to believe every single thing that a guy like that is selling? Yeah, like how, how does that continue?

[Nathan]

Let's say I've been at Kenneth Church for 30 years. My dad, I'm a 33 year old male. My dad and mom, I, I live in Fort Worth. And so my dad and mom went there. They took me since I was a kid. You know what Kenneth Talk taught prosperity. So I've been giving 10% of my money every year since I've been 12 years old. Off my, off my. What do you call it when you give your kids allowance? You know, everything. I've been drilled into this. So 33 years old now, I'm bought this institution. I'VE had faith in my faith, which is Kenneth Copeland's church. I've had this hook, line, and sinker. It takes a massive slice of humility to realize I've been duped. Dan Bramer in the show says people will not. What does he say? He goes, people do not believe in something that they think is stupid. As soon as I have to question. As soon as I question what I am in. All of a sudden, man, that hundred grand that I've given this church over the last two decades is gone, man. My. My mom. My mom was buried by this man. Probably should add someone else, bury her or. Does that make sense? You have to question all your decisions. So Dan Bremer goes, we don't believe something we think is stupid. And you have to call it stupid, for lack of a better term, once you start doing the research. And so Bruce Widek, he's a development economist, he calls it strategic ignorance. And he goes, people stay strategically ignorant because they'd rather not know.

[Julian]

Strategic ignorance.

[Nathan]

Strategic ignorance, yeah.

[Chris]

There's a statistic out there that. That I think that's part of the root cause of this, that only 13% of Christians have actually read the Bible.

[Julian]

I would believe that.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Now, when you say read the Bible. The whole thing.

[Chris]

Yeah, the whole thing. And then 9% have read it more than. More than once. It's not an easy read.

[Julian]

Oh, it's a vicious book.

[Chris]

Yeah. And like, thank. Thank God for my brother Nathan here. It started to make a lot more sense to me when I started reading it as a history book. Right. Because it's written not to you, but for you.

[Julian]

And so you weren't reading it as a history book.

[Chris]

I was not. I was, like, trying to read it as if, like, what can I get out of this? What can I get out of this? Instead of understanding, like, the culture and why people were saying certain things at the time, it completely changed my view on it. But, like, if you don't have those moments and understand that you're gonna get faked out. Yes, very easily. And so very vulnerable people are there, and then they don't have the knowledge as a foundation, so they easily get faked out.

[Julian]

Now, that makes perfect sense. But if you don't mind, I'd like to ask you how it changed for you. Like, if you could be specific on that. Like, once you.

[Chris]

I got over. I got over myself. I was looking at it for myself, what can I get out of this?

[Julian]

For.

[Chris]

For me, what's God trying to tell me right now? Instead of understanding, like, the concept of what led to Christ and what Christ set us free from as. As humanity. Instead of like, oh, what does this one line mean? Because I was notorious. I used to be, like, on Joel Osteen subscriber list. I used to love getting his, you know, God's going to turn your life around tomorrow. And then a statement, dot, dot, dot, dot.

[Julian]

Don't run to him in a hurricane, though.

[Chris]

No, no, I'm going to Mattress Mac.

[Julian]

That's right.

[Chris]

Yeah, but. But, yeah, that was the big. The big. The big thing for me is I stopped making it about me, me, me, me, me, and looking at it as like, this is a. Like a history book that tells this beautiful story about how we ended up getting to where we had our Lord and Savior.

[Julian]

All right, let's actually stay with this for a minute, because you're. You're a perfect example. We were talking off camera. Obviously, you're an extremely successful guy, very intelligent guy. You're a man of faith, very clearly through and through. And yet in the past, at some point, there were guys, even if you weren't necessarily going there, there were guys like a Joel Osteen that you're like, you know what? This makes sense to me. And from what you said right there, it sounds like a lot of it has to do with. You were like, you were saying you were looking at it for, what can I get out of this? Regardless of who that speaker is, I.

[Chris]

Wanted to feel good.

[Julian]

But was it. Was. Were there anything else there that, like, drew you to, you know, a podcast.

[Chris]

With Joel Osteen, like, inspirational speaking, like, let's talk about positive, like, positive energy. Positive energy and. And everything. And, hey, I love a good. I love a good TED Talk, right? And then it felt good. But there was this, like, real heaviness thing that I was scared because in that period of time, I got injured in the army in 2012. I picked up the book at that time, and I'm getting medically discharged at 13. I picked up this book called Not a Fan, and it was about how it was a great book. It was a great read about how everybody is a. So many Christians, they put the bumper sticker on. They're. They're fans of Christ. And then I had this, like, you know, you have this aha moment that ends up, like, coming full circle where you're like, wait a second. I'm not picking up the cross and following Christ. And then you realize, well, the devil believes that Jesus is the son of God. The devil believes in the resurrection. The devil believes in all the same things I believe in. But the difference is, is do you pick up the cross and follow Christ?

[Nathan]

This wasn't a Joel Osteen book, was it?

[Chris]

No, it was a different one. But, like, that was like. I remember that. Like, I'm not a fan. I'm a follower. And so I did. I was so scared of giving up the world. I'm in pursuit of money. I'm in pursuit of greatness. I'm in pursuit of this big dream I have.

[Nathan]

And Chris, if you want that, come to my prosperity preaching church, because I preach all of that.

[Chris]

So that's. I wanted to go somewhere where it was what I wanted to hear. You know, when I look at the darkest parts of my life, when I made the most mistakes, I surrounded myself with people who would only encourage me. They wouldn't tell me, dude, what you're doing is not okay. Like, call me out on it. And those guys are going to call you out on it.

[Nathan]

Hey, everything's rosy out there. God wants you to be. God wants you to be prosperous, right? Yeah.

[Julian]

How long were you in the Army?

[Chris]

So I graduated from the Air Force Academy. I started off there, and then I was active duty Air Force a total of about, like six years. Did. I went to Iraq while I was in the Air Force, but I was in a joint Army. Like, I was predominantly army, but it was a joint unit.

[Julian]

Got it there.

[Chris]

And then after that, I was like, I think I'm gonna cross commission in the Army. So then I did about three years in the Army.

[Julian]

Okay, so you. Wow. So you lived in. You straddled both and then both. And then in the army, you got injured.

[Chris]

Yeah, I got injured. What happened? So I went to. I. I went in the army. I went to the field artillery captain's career course, went to airborne school. Then I went to selection for Special Operations Force of Civil Affairs. I did. I did great. There was in the. In the. In the. In their Q course. And then a week before graduating in our. In our, like, finishing exercise. I forget what the exact. They call it Operation Sless Tiller. That's what I remember what it was. Seven of us ended up getting injured. It was June, and they screwed up. Like, where you put water at different points and all that. So seven of us ended up in the hospital. I got exertional rhabdomyolysis. Had, like a heat, like, stroke type thing. And.

[Julian]

Whoa.

[Chris]

I woke up and I was like, yeah. I said like, it's gonna be. It's about five years for your hypothalamus to reset. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm done. I mean, it's like being a professional athlete at that, like, at that level. And you're like, yeah, you're not going to play for a few years.

[Julian]

So you're, you're also, like, going through the most grueling training camp of all time. You make the team and then you get injured and they're like, yeah, yeah, you can't play.

[Chris]

It was real. It. That, that time led to a rising uphill of chasing the world while completely falling apart. Like, I haven't drank alcohol in five and a half years. I've been. I, I congrats. Thanks, man. But, like, leading up to that, right? So from 32 to 40, I drank like crazy and I partied, and I was a married man and had kids, and I made a lot of mistakes, and it cost me my marriage, it cost me my, my family. And I had to have a real, like, come to Jesus. Like, what the hell are you doing? What are you doing? And it was in those moments where it's like, yeah, you lose your soul chasing the world, for sure. I remember reading that.

[Nathan]

Right, and were you, Were you like, this is during your Joel Osteen phase, right?

[Chris]

Oh, yeah.

[Nathan]

Like this.

[Julian]

Oh, you were partying during Osteen.

[Chris]

Well, absolutely, bro.

[Julian]

Wow.

[Chris]

Prosperity, baby. Yeah, let's go.

[Nathan]

So it's. And that goes. That's the difference between. I like that fan and follower. You know, this, this is a fun one. Like, Christ never said in any of the gospels, hey, Julian, worship me, right? No, he said, follow me, right?

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

Like, and when you do that all of a sudden, like, whoa, my sin or my, like, lust or my, like, alcohol problem. If you have an alcohol problem or whatever. This doesn't bode well for me if I'm trying to follow this dude. And it's a radical transformation of how you see the world. So, like, I'll just put a button on that. Like, you have faith in your faith in God, you know, but you have to have this radical rethink of. You got to put your faith in the God of your faith, because then it gets dangerous. And, like, I've watched Chris over the last few years, and it's been so awesome to be a brother with him in the trenches because I've seen his life just deepen and his relationship, you know, it's been amazing to watch. And so it's, it's amazing. Like, it's just so cool when someone really dives into the word and said into the scriptures and And I always say when I first read it as a history book, it looked like Lord of the Rings. All of a sudden. Like, you read these battles and you read about giants and Nephilim, and you're just like, what is going on? You know, and no longer. I'm like, I'm just going to find the verses I like. It's like, no, this is Jesus. So, you know, well, oh, this goes back to that analogy you said about, you know, spider man and all that. That. And they're all like Jesus figures. So in Hollywood, they. The best, most successful films of all time are nothing but the Bible story. And what I mean by that is there is a Christ figure who goes through this journey, who is tempted all along the way, who finds salvation, who usually ends up a martyr. You know, those are all my favorite movies. Man on Fire, you know, Denzel Washington. It's like the greatest movies mirror biblical stories.

[Julian]

It's the greatest story ever told. So it makes sense. Yeah, it's got perfect plot points.

[Nathan]

Exactly.

[Julian]

Ups and downs.

[Nathan]

All you got to do is pick your protagonist. Is that Paul slash Saul, Was he killing Christians first? And then was the like, literally the lead, you know, spreader of the gospel? Is that Christ? Like, you pick your protagonist and on the opposite of all those stories, there's an antagonist. You don't even have to write the story. It's in the Bible.

[Julian]

And to your point, they can have arcs. You can have arcs where they flip for the good or turn for the bad.

[Nathan]

All in there.

[Julian]

Yeah, no, that makes sense. Now, the. The other thing, Chris, like, I've had the opportunity to speak with a lot of guys from the military over the years, including on this show, had a lot of tier one dudes as well, who have gone and. And done some pretty serious training, just like you were referring to doing. And one of the things I don't think a civilian like me can ever properly simulate because we didn't live it, one of the many things is that void that can happen when you don't have it anymore. Right. So as an example, a lot of my Navy SEAL guys I talk to, they. They talk about how the action and energy they would get from what they did, they cannot replicate. And they have to watch themselves and how they may try to fill that now in civilian life. And some have some very interesting, deep rooted ways of having to do that. So without referring to faith or anything like that, even a level below that, do you think having like the shock of suddenly you have this thing, you're all hands on deck you're operating at the top of your capacity. You train your ass off, and now, boom, it's gone. Do you think that part of filling that void just from a human perspective was you're like, I gotta go do something? So in this case, you just went out and partied.

[Chris]

I worked my tail off, and I used the partying as part as at, Like, I used that. That partying to numb the things I didn't want to deal with. But I was. I mean, and part of the prosperity side. I mean, the harder I partied, the more money I made.

[Julian]

Interesting.

[Chris]

Yeah. And I always had that, like, in the military. Like, you know, I turned 21, and that's when I, like, started hitting the sauce. Started drinking a lot and partying and having fun with my. With my boys. And I was always afraid to stop doing that. And, like, it's like the devil would say, like, hey, like, if you stop doing this, like, you're not going to be, like, successful. Right. I mean, I was in the. I was. There's a sword in the Pentagon with my name on it. I was in the Oval Office for being the number one ranked cadet in the United States Air Force in 2003. I got an award in 2000, 2004. And my recipe for that was, work hard, party hard, have fun, and you can mix the two.

[Julian]

You're not the first guy to think that, by the way.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And so. And it felt good, and it was fun, but there was a lot of things in my life that I wouldn't work on. And then eventually you become a husband and a father, and you don't deal with the things that you need to deal with, it'll break you. It'll break your family apart. And so for me, it was. When I got injured, the military was my identity. So when I got injured, I was like, I can't lose. Like, I need my identity and something. I got to be something special. Like, God didn't put me on this earth to sit on the sidelines. So I just went all in. In the corporate world. Right. And I was in a job where, you know, a lot of my function we did. We grew a lot by M and A. So it's like parting. Right. Entertaining, traveling.

[Julian]

Yep.

[Chris]

Whining and dining, laughing, doing all that kind of stuff. And. And, you know, when all that's, like, said and done and you have, like, I had a good chance. You know, I've been working on this with Nate for over two years now, and a lot of reflection leading up to that. And then since Then it's like, I miss, like, the danger of. Of things. I miss that. And it was in my DNA.

[Julian]

Yes.

[Chris]

But it's like, now I'm doing this as a member of the body of Christ. And that feels fulfilling because this isn't a joke. This is a very dangerous thing we're doing.

[Nathan]

Just.

[Julian]

Just to refresh me. I think you mentioned this very early on. I just want to make sure I have it right. At what point in your life did. Did you start to consider yourself a Christian?

[Chris]

I've always considered myself a Christian. Always.

[Julian]

When did you start really practicing, if you will? Like, heavily?

[Chris]

So when I was in my. When I was in my late teens, my dream was to go to the Air Force Academy. And I was, like, very locked in. I mean, I was following Christ like, to the T as much as, like, possible with everything. I was so straight and narrow is when I turned 21 and I started getting a lot of success in the military and I started drinking a lot that I started being. I saw all the success coming from this recipe that I was afraid to follow Christ anymore, like, to the table. So it's like, hey, I got all these results here. I'm good. And then it was. It was when, you know, the personal destruction of, like, the family side of things and me really working through the healing on that side with, like, my kids and my kid's mom and jump. Jumping on board with. With this. It was like a process from, like, I'm 45 now, so I would say probably from like, 42 through now is when I started doing a lot of real hard work on myself. So, you know, it's been about three years.

[Julian]

Right? So it. No, it's interesting, both of your stories with that, because there's a lot of. A lot of years and a lot of different life events, like we were saying earlier with yours as well, Nate. But it's like, you know, looking from the outside in a lot of ways. You can still have that North Star of, like, faith, but your life kind of without. You're passively getting off track with that and not realizing it because you're sinking your teeth so hard into other things. And then you get this kick in the ass. And now you're like, oh, wait a minute. Okay, let me reshuffle some things here.

[Chris]

Nathan and I always, always talk about this, and we challenge each other with this. And this is a great thing about our. Our brotherhood is, you know, God. God, you know, told Abraham to put. Put Isaac on the altar, his son.

[Julian]

That's when he went to kill.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And then like, angel came in. So it's like, I finally got to a point and we've had this conversation where it's like, I've got to put money, relationships, my life, my relationship with my kids, everything, just on the altar and just trust. And as soon as you do that, crazy amounts of testing happen. I mean, you get hit pretty, pretty hard and your faith gets tested. And it's in those moments where you're like, I want to go back to the safety.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And God's like, now Christ is like, follow me.

[Julian]

Can I. Can I ask you a hard question here? And it's. And it's not a gotcha question. Oh, I hate that shit.

[Chris]

But is it about psychedelics?

[Julian]

No, no, it's about. It's about money. It's about money. You're obviously putting your foot forward with that now because you put your, your full teeth into this. It's not like you guys are making millions of dollars doing this. It's more to really do good and try to reform, you know, the. Some of the darker sides of ministry, if you will. But, like, you were a very successful guy before that. And I never like this idea that.

[Nathan]

Like, oh, if you're gonna have faith.

[Julian]

Or something, you need to be poor or something. I, I don't believe in that at all. But do you ever. If I came to you today and said, hey, I'm gonna make up a number right now.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Julian]

You know, Chris, you're worth $10 million if you really believe in Jesus, Guess what? You're gonna have to be worth a hundred thousand. Now. Are you at a point in your life where you're like, well, that's really what it was. I'd go with it.

[Chris]

No, like, I, that's the, like, operating within the, within the, the Holy Spirit and having the Holy Spirit within you. Like, I truly trust that, that that money could be like.

[Nathan]

It. It.

[Chris]

It might not be for, for what that is. It means that, like, every penny in my bank account goes towards following Christ. And so everything that I do has to follow that. So if that means it's with the religion business and it means helping somebody out, like, I really feel like God will put those opportunities in my life. It's not, I'm not going to be manipulated by anybody to say, yeah, you shouldn't be worth this. You need to have this.

[Nathan]

Yeah, well, and there's a, There's a big misconception. A lot of people think we preach like, a poor gospel, which is basically like, you should give it all Away.

[Julian]

Ah, yes, Paul, never.

[Nathan]

Well, we'll start with Paul. Right? So Paul, when a lot of pastors will look at what they did in the, in the, the, the letters or what Paul did in the letters, because he would go around and ask people for money. And what he was doing is he was pooling resources. This is the kicker. Out of people's surplus. He'd say, bring your surplus. We're going to bring it together. And this is the kicker. Give it to the poor churches. So they'd give monetary gifts to poor churches or a church where there was a famine so they couldn't buy food at that time. So that's what Paul was doing.

[Julian]

Socialism.

[Nathan]

This is a really interesting conversation.

[Chris]

We should talk about that after this.

[Julian]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Nathan]

This is really socialism.

[Julian]

I had to say it.

[Nathan]

It was like, yes, it is. You will be the first person that we've had the conversation with.

[Julian]

Let's do it.

[Nathan]

But I would love, we'll come back to socialism. But you know, in Jesus, when he told. I'm trying to think of his name, the, the rich man, maybe it wasn't named in the Bible, but the rich man in the Gospels, you know, the last thing you need to do is sell everything you have and follow me. The reason why he said that is because it was the one thing the man held on to. It wasn't, hey, go be poor and walk and be homeless and destitute. No, it's the one thing that you can't give up and put on the altar, so to speak. And what did that man do? He left dismayed and saddened. And so Christ or not Christ, if you are a Christ follower, everything follows behind you, which is your resource. Right. And so wealth is not inherently a bad thing. And so in America, though, we see poverty and then wealth, poverty and blessing. It's like, no, some of the most blessed people I've ever met are destitute in third world countries. They sit around and they live in the middle of like, I've gotten to travel the world to most developing nations and some of my greatest moments in life came sitting with the poorest people in the world. And it's because they didn't care about money. They cared about community. And so, yeah, it's, it's. Wealth is not inherently bad. It's, it's. Sorry, number one, it's sordid gain. The Bible talks about sorry gain sorted, like creating or generating, generating, generating wealth off of sordid gains.

[Julian]

Yeah, okay, I see what you're saying.

[Nathan]

I would almost Say most. Not most. A lot of pastors, they make their gains off of sordid gains.

[Julian]

I agree.

[Nathan]

And so it's that $100 bill sitting on the table has no value until you and I put value on it. And so, yeah, I would just emphasize that it's your resources come behind you. And what that means is, first and foremost, I will use my resources to protect my ministry, and my ministry is my child. Right. And so that doesn't mean I will never. And I think it's very antithetical to Christ to not be able to provide for your children.

[Julian]

I would agree.

[Nathan]

And so there's just a. There's. There's so much nuance in the Scriptures where if you just look at Paul or just look at Christ, I can demand you give everything for Jesus. If I just read that one story.

[Julian]

There'S a difference between using a parable for symbolism versus creating an exception that becomes a rule.

[Nathan]

Yeah. And that goes to Chris's point. When you read the Bible for history, as opposed to, how do I apply this? It's like the story of, you know, Christ saying, hey, poke out your eye if the eye makes you sin. We would all be blind. My dick would be chopped off like every. I would be done. You know, I would literally just be one nub. Just let it two.

[Julian]

That's two inches.

[Nathan]

The world's never gonna get back one and a half. Don't give me that much credit, but Baby Carrot was my nickname. But. I'm joking. That was not my nickname. But who knows? But. But yeah, it's. It's. Again, when you read the Bible and try to just randomly apply parables to your life or scriptures to your life, bad things happen. So we'd encourage you to read the book from Genesis 1:1 all the way through Revelation, and read it as a history lesson. And I believe God will speak to you through those scriptures in ways you've never been spoken to.

[Julian]

All right, let's do the socialism thing, though. We can't leave that off the table. It is an interesting conversation.

[Nathan]

Yes.

[Julian]

And to be clear, I don't think that the Bible preaches socialism, but there's people based on some of those teachings, including the example you give with Paul, like, setting up the church. They could be like, ooh, old Stalin onto something here. You know what I mean?

[Nathan]

So, yes, he was so. I'm gonna say this to me so.

[Julian]

Serious when he said that, oh, my.

[Nathan]

God, communism and socialism in their purest forms on paper is genius. What's the outlier in it? Humans Right. Humans will human good intentions pave the way to hell and socialism and communism ends up being an abusive system through and through. We live in a democracy where the First Amendment separates religion for freedom of religions. And so you do or you are supposed to have that gap between religion and politic. I think democracy or the republic is the greatest experiment in governmental history. That's America, like the most brilliant legal structure. So we need to look at. So this is where it gets fun. What is a legal structure? It's a set of laws that we all play by. So capitalism in its purest form is amazing. Like I firmly believe that. I think, I think we live in a world of crony capitalism right now. But capitalism in its purest form is brilliant. Democracy in its purest form is brilliant from a legal government perspective. Now let's look at Christianity. The message of Christ is a social message. The message of Christ is help the poor, help the widow, help the orphan, help the sick, help the thirsty, help the hungry, help the sojourner, help the prisoner. We do that on a one, on one community perspective. Oh, thank you, sir.

[Julian]

Good, keep going.

[Nathan]

So what I'm saying is when you look at Christianity as an organism, right. When I look at Christianity as that organic living body with Christ as the head, social practices are baked into that. I am here to help Julian. Julian is here to help me. There's this concept of reciprocity in that as soon as we build a structure around doesn't work anymore. So what I mean by that is Christ's message is a social message. Socialism was meant for from. Is meant in socialism such a derogatory term for it? Yeah, but you and me helping each other is a beautiful thing. It's supposed to happen. On the personal level, government can never be socialist or communist, but on a. So on a singular community level, it works.

[Julian]

It's like if I want to go down this. If I go down the street and I see three people I know are suddenly homeless and I know some tough things have happened to them and I care about them and I want to get. Give them some of my money, which is like, if you're looking at the letter of the law, this is like redistribution of wealth in a way to help them out. I love the idea that A, I want to do that and B, I can do that. I think where this is where the dichotomy is extremely important that you're pointing out when a government run by men who are also, I might say, secularly loyal to themselves and no one else are telling you you must give it to us so that we can decide what to do within. By the way, we're just going to screw over all the poor people anyway. Yeah, that's where it gets weird.

[Nathan]

Correct. So socialism in a community setting with no structure around it is very close. Is a lot of what Christ taught. But what that is, is it's you and me actively participating in this.

[Julian]

That's right.

[Nathan]

In what? An organic body, which is the freaking church. The true church. As soon as you box it in, as soon as you build organization and institution on top of it, you're done.

[Julian]

And it's size too. Right. There's a guy, Sebastian Younger, who wrote some great books. One of them is called Tribe, which is like a really amazing book. Really easy read too. I don't even remember as I read it about six years ago. I don't even think he had this takeaway because he was just writing the book and telling the story and explaining it. But there was something brilliant that came out of his book. And if he did have this takeaway, apologies, Sebastian, but the tribes, he would talk about where he's talking about early human history. And then as times went on and nomadic tribes would. Would travel around together, they. They practiced simultaneously the perfection forms of socialism and libertarianism, depending on the situation. But he talked about in his book how once a tribe got above a certain size, whether it was 100 or 150, whatever, it. It got harder to control. And I think that is a perfect example for what we're talking about because in theory, a lot of libertarianism is amazing. In theory, a lot of socialism is amazing. But once the tribe gets too big. Experimentation.

[Nathan]

Dude, this is brilliant. What did I talk about? A shepherd. What was the number?

[Julian]

100. It was 100.

[Nathan]

100.

[Julian]

Exactly. Like I was thinking that when you.

[Nathan]

Said that, it's like you, once you get outside of that, you start building legal structure around it.

[Julian]

Yep.

[Nathan]

And it's like government is one thing, community is another. And it's fascinating when they why the government carved out the nonprofit sector in 1913. And it was because there were certain organizations, 12,000 of them to be exact, in the US that were building what we call local social capital in the show. So it's, hey, Julian, you and I live down the street together. You have kids. I don't. But guess what? I care that the park is nice and safe for your kids, because I want my community to thrive. And so the government saw that these organizations, they're like, wow, they're really building local social capital. Right. So they Carved it out and gave them a tax break. Well, what happens when you layer technology, you know, radio, tv, Internet, social media on top of these original organizations that were meant to build local social capital. Now I can look global and do it like, oh, my audience is no longer my community. These hundred people that I want to make like benefit their life. No. Now my world is 8 billion people. And so the non profit sector has literally lost sight of their true cause, like calling, which is in its purest form, socialism. Like you, I'm a random organ. I'm a food pantry. I should not question Julian if he and his kids are hungry. If they need food and I have it, give it to them. Right. Like I don't dangle a carrot over their head. Let me rephrase that. Dangle that carrot.

[Chris]

No, baby carrots.

[Nathan]

Don't put some constriction on the food. Just give it to them. Right. And then there's this. But the whole system, as technology developed, it's just become bastardized. And reform, governmental reform hasn't caught up. And we just, we talked about the ECFA forming. Like government saw this and then the government also in 2008 saw this issue and they tried to wrangle it again. But then what happened? The housing crisis hit and government had to focus their, shift their attention. And there was. They were going after Copeland. They were going after Benny Hinn and a couple other.

[Julian]

Oh, really?

[Nathan]

Benny Hinn spent $5 million fighting that inquiry in 2007 and 2008.

[Julian]

Thank you to his congregants.

[Nathan]

$5 million. Yeah. Of donor funds.

[Julian]

This is a battle for the Lord.

[Nathan]

Exactly. Well, Kenneth Copeland literally said it was Kenneth Copeland. Right.

[Chris]

It was his son in law, Kenneth Copeland.

[Nathan]

Son in law said that the housing crisis was a miracle of God. Right, Miracle or.

[Chris]

Yeah. God crashed the housing market in 2008 to spare Kenneth Copeland.

[Nathan]

Weaponizing. Weaponized.

[Chris]

We were physically, we were physically there when this was said. And then Kenneth walked out on stage afterwards. They're like our prophets here. And he looked at us and, and, and you could just like. It was not a good demon. I could feel it. Yeah.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

But do you guys believe in demons? Yeah.

[Chris]

Oh yeah.

[Julian]

You do? What do you think a demon is?

[Nathan]

A dark spirit. Yeah, spirits. The Bible, the Bible says that they, you know, they can be attached to you. And so it's energy. I like we're gonna get into theoretics here. Yeah, but everything's energy. Right. And energy isn't lost, it's just transferred. Energy doesn't disappear. And there's A theoretical physicist in the show who's at Oxford. And I feel like he's the most brilliant man I've ever sat with. What's his name, Art? Louis.

[Julian]

Okay.

[Nathan]

And most of his stuff didn't make the show because I just. It was six and a half hours at that point, and. But he says this brilliant line, you know, he goes, everything in your body outside of hydrogen and helium is stardust. Like, we're cooked up in the furnace of stars. And. And so he talks about energy transfers, and it'll. It'll end up going somewhere, all this material. But if everything's energy, why can't there be bad. There's bad energy. There's good energy, you know, if you believe in the biblical structure of power. And so we had a really interesting moment with Victor Marx, a brilliant friend of ours, and he's. He's on the front lines of. Of the battle with CSAM in the US which is child sexual abuse material. Is that the.

[Julian]

That's not the dude who can flip the guns around.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, he did it tonight.

[Nathan]

He did it to me. Yeah, he's beast. If you ever want to talk with him, I'll. I'll get.

[Julian]

I would love to talk with that guy. You've seen that video, right, Thief, where the guy just stands there.

[Nathan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

Let us know. We'll plug you into his group.

[Julian]

Oh, yeah, he's cool as.

[Nathan]

But he. He prayed over both Chris and I, and. And he's like, hey, I don't want to give too much into the. Get too much into the weeds, because it was a gnarly story, but he's like, yeah, I'm gonna pray. And I'm like, I'm gonna call out if you have any demons. And I was like, kind of. Yeah, it's not. You know, it isn't what. It isn't much, but, like, as soon as he started praying, my veins would pulse up and down, and I could. I was watching them just like bubbles moving through my veins. And then my eyelashes, my eyebrows started twitching so fast. And the moment he finished that prayer, everything went black. Like, super calm. And. And he's like, okay, everything's gonna change after this. And sure enough, like, full systems of my life just started collapsing, like, people in it, people turning on me like it was crazy. And I'll leave it at that. But, like, I had, like, there. I believe I had five demons attached to me.

[Julian]

Oh, you counted them?

[Nathan]

Yeah. Oh, it was very specific. His prayer is very specific.

[Julian]

Interesting.

[Nathan]

And it's about letting go. So you know, he's like, say what comes to mind. And I was always, like, in the beginning, battling it, you know, because I'm like, ah, no, that's not it. That's not it. And then as soon as I started talking, he would ask me more questions, and it just started going. And he's like, I've had people lunge at me and try to kill me when I'm praying this prayer.

[Chris]

Not a good idea.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

What do you think, Chris? Oh, I meant demons. Like, would you agree with that type of explanation or do you have a little bit of a different interpretation?

[Chris]

I, I think I'm gonna go one, one level deeper. I do think that, like, and, and I'll just say this. I was gonna resist saying it, but, like, when two people have sex and their bodies become one, that concept of, of demons like you, you pick up that, that energy when you're with a person. I wish that wasn't necessarily true, but it is, I believe.

[Julian]

Wait. Every time.

[Chris]

Well, so, wait.

[Nathan]

So, So I think it's one person. If one person.

[Julian]

If I have sex with, like, a nice girl, I mean, I'm not gonna, like, suddenly start speaking in tongues or some. Right.

[Chris]

I, I mean, I don't know. You'll have to let me know. I mean, I don't.

[Nathan]

If it's Kenneth Copeland's daughter, maybe.

[Julian]

Touching that was difficult.

[Chris]

But it's, it's you when you're, I mean, when two bodies become, become one. Right. In that sense. Right. And it's something that's necessarily, like it says, designed for marriage. That, that you can, you can pick that kind of stuff up. So, like, I, I, I went through this exercise that a guy that's mentoring Nathan and I, and just being super vulnerable here, man. Like, he was like, go through every woman you've ever slept with in your head. Yeah. And ask God to remove, like, spirit, soul, body, those, those three levels. And there's biblical references for that.

[Julian]

The ones that are bad or just all of them?

[Chris]

All of them. All of them, yeah. To remove that. Right. Because you're. There's still an attachment that's there, whether that's good or bad.

[Julian]

Okay, so you're not defining it as good or bad.

[Chris]

No, I'm just saying, like, whatever that is. Right. But there's, there's an attachment that's there. But oftentimes, like, all of us have, all of us have bad energy within us. We're not perfect. Right.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Chris]

So. So you do pick up bad with just about anything. Right?

[Julian]

Yeah. What I was tracking when you were explaining this, Nate is like, you're using the term energy legit. And I'm thinking also vibes. And I actually kind of like what you're saying. I didn't have the experience like you did or anything, but rather than, you know, what you see in the movie with some gargoyle infesting inside of someone's soul and being sucked out. It's not that. It's like if there are bad intentions around you, whatever that is, where someone's given in to what from the simplest shit to the more serious, the most serious type stuff, then that energy can infect you if you let it in your life. And that in and of itself is like a demonic.

[Nathan]

Yeah, so like a good. I've also believe. I believe in angels too. Like there, though, when I was. When I was on my life flight back when I was 16, I fully remember this. This white being just sitting right above me. It's the only thing I remember those two weeks and. And it was on the plane the whole flight back. And it could have been the nurse, I don't know. But it. All I remember is this thing never left me the whole flight back. And then as soon as I went into the ambulance on the Runway, it went away.

[Julian]

There's things in the world that cannot be explained, right? Whether it be something like that during a traumatic event, or, you know, things lining up in a weird way sometimes, just like weird patterns. And you're like, wait, why is that person? Why were they at that thing when I'm at that thing, you know, and whatever it is, I. I don't know. I'm not God, and I. I can't define that. But that's my. My one real pushback with people who are just like a pure atheist. I'm like, how does it all come from nothing? I. I just can't. Maybe it's beyond my human ability to comprehend that that could be the case. I don't know. Even if there's 10 quadrillion layers between me and whatever's at the top, I have no idea. It could be 1, could be 10, quadrillion or whatever the number is. It's like there's some energy there and there's something that sometimes puts things in your path that you're like, you either need to say no to or say yes to or say thank you to. And that might be that example right there. And I don't think that's what I'm saying. I. I don't. The demon and angel thing, even if it's just more symbolic rather than literal. I'm okay with that. I, I, I think there's some, there's something to it though, for sure.

[Chris]

Have you felt that in your life? Like just these moments, like, where you have, like this.

[Julian]

Yeah, absolutely. All the time. And sometimes I blow it too, with good situations and I'm like, damn it. Like, that was, that was there for me to do something and I didn't do something with that. And then I think about the probability, like the math in my head of that thing having been in that situation, like, that was so low and that happened. And that's the third time that's happened in a week. And I blew that. It's like, yeah, yeah, I def, I definitely think there's something there. Even if you go like beyond to like dream states, like deja vu's and stuff. I mean, come on. Like, where's that coming from? That happens to me once a month.

[Nathan]

Month. Wow.

[Julian]

Minimum. Yep, yep. I'll get one. I've been in this studio before and had people say stuff, and in my head I'm saying the words before they say it.

[Nathan]

You know that.

[Julian]

And I see that and I'm like, yeah, that's not, I don't do mushrooms. You know what I mean? Like, that's not that. So what's going on there? Like, I, I just, I'm, I try, I'm sure I fail plenty of times, but I try to be humble in the face of what I don't know. That's how I live my life. And like, I try to live my life and do way more good than bad and try to learn from when I do, when I do things that are wrong because I'm gonna have to answer to something.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Whatever that is, I, I hope that's going to be a very good day for me. You know what I mean?

[Nathan]

Well, there's this, I can't, man, I can't remember who, who said this, but it's, it's an atheist. And it was an atheist, a Christian. And they were debating, they're pretty well known. Jordan Peterson, I can't remember.

[Julian]

It's, it's, but, but Richard Dawkins.

[Nathan]

And it might have been Dawkins, but the conclusion was like, hey, we both put faith in something. Even if you're atheist, you're putting faith in your faith in that, in that idea. And so we both have faith.

[Julian]

Yes.

[Nathan]

So, hey, when I die, if nothing happens, what a crappy way to live. Like Jesus. Helping people, being there for people. You know, I'm being Facetious here. It's like, I'd much rather have believed in something than nothing. And then, hey, if it's actually. If I wake up in heaven or I wait, you know, or my. My energy goes back, like, I. I see it as. I'm like, we were just with blurry creatures. I don't know if you know that. That podcast, rad dude. His name's Luke Rogers, and he's all about the weird things. And then he correlates it to scripture. So, like, Bigfoot, Nephilim giants, you know, and he has all these really unique, like, extraterrestrials. He has all these brilliant science, scientific minds on his show. But we were talking about, like, this idea of energy. And, okay, if there's a creative energy out there that created everything, our solar system, us, and it created this out of love. It just wants its energy back. And I fully. Like, this is just this idea. And I talked with Ard Louis about this. Like, when I die, isn't that just my soul going back? You know what I mean? Like, my physical body dies. The matter of my body dissolves, and it goes into some other brilliant animal or plants, you know? But that energy, that sliver, just kind of goes back to the creator, and I'm like, that's just this visual I have in my mind right now. You know, it's like this energy that's. That's outside of our dimensions, but it created this. It breathed. As the Bible story goes, it breathed life into our nostrils, and it just wants if that life's gonna go back home.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

You know, and in the. In the interim, you and I, Julian, can connect in. In a deeper realm than just. Just, you know. Well, now they're seeing like, crazy. Like, plants talk and everything, you know, communicate. It's like everything's come in in this form of communication, but it's like maybe it's. It's that energy in you and energy in me talking to each other. Maybe that. Maybe it's Chris's energy and him and me talking to each other. That's not even our own energy. When I saw my daughter be born, and I just broke down out of sheer amazement and awe. That wasn't me. Like, I honestly, I was like, this energy is so much more powerful than anything I've ever.

[Julian]

Something was forcing you.

[Nathan]

Something was letting. Allowing me to experience this overwhelming, like, from my head to toe, you know, and sometimes.

[Julian]

But that's not you.

[Nathan]

It is. I think it's the energy in me, allowing me to feel that. That is what ultimate love is seeing this pure, undefiled, like, brand new life be born. You know, I'm a big bow hunter and even taking life like, is so powerful for me that it's like there's just this energy transfer and shift and. Yeah. So I don't know why I went down that rabbit hole, but I love that idea of I'm going back one day and no one knows what that back is, but I have faith in that back.

[Julian]

You know the point you make about if you were wrong and it, and it turned out, you know what, Insert your religious beliefs, whatever they are here, that's not exactly what it is. When it's all said and done, if you use the good of what that's supposed to show in your life to put that forward. And let's be honest, there's also a beautiful, like, even selfish aspect to that, which is that when you're doing good and helping people out, you feel great about it. If that's how you lived your life and you live long and you're remembered as someone who left this world better than, than the way you found it, then who the hell cares?

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

What it is afterwards, that's not up to you. You know what I mean? And, and that's also, that veers towards kind of how I think about things. It's like, you know, I don't, I don't know if this is right or that's right or that's right or they're all wrong or they're all a little bit right. I don't know. But your guess is as good as mine. But I do know while there is plenty of gray area in the world, some that makes us more uncomfortable than others, there is an overall objective good and an overall objective not good, if that's what you want to call it. And like I want to lean on, on the good side of things. So that's, that's, that's kind of what's clocking me here. But no, it's, that's, that's interesting.

[Chris]

I, I, Right, yeah.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

Well, let's, and I love this. I'm going to give you another first.

[Julian]

Okay.

[Nathan]

I was waiting for Joe to take this one, but I'm gonna give it here. So look at Joe Rogan. See Jesus on the pendulum. So Jesus is on a pendulum. Like everything's on a pendulum, right? Our politic, everything swings on a pendulum. So I see on this left side of the pendulum, my mom, conservative Christian woman, like, believes every letter of the Bible is the literal word of God. Even through translations and all that. And it's really hard for me to rationalize that. And then I can swing all the way to the other side of pendulum, of. The pendulum of Jesus. And who is Jesus? He's a history, a figure in history who had massive implications on society in the world. He was murdered and that's it. The resurrection is faked. You know, Pentecost is. Is just folklore. You know, the God, the. The. The apostles who died and all those early bishops who died, died for a lie or died for a made up story, but whatever. But his life and his teachings pulled us from barbarism all the way to this day, where you and I see each other as equal value and equal life, Right? So I see Jesus on those pendulums. Wherever you are, on this pendulum, wherever you fall in your quote unquote faith or idea of Christ, Christ is going to meet you there. Like, even if you just think he's a historical figure who taught great lessons in man. I want to be the good in the world. Like you said, like, you're over here, my mom's over here. You're on the same pendulum, actually, and Jesus will meet you there. If you look at him and actually just read his teachings and, and that's what I always encourage people to do is like just study his life like a history book. And the stuff you will glean out of that, you'll have wherever you end up on that spectrum. Like, that's where Christ will meet you and you will be the good in the world. But right now it's like if we look at it like that, and we look at it like, okay, we're all going in that trajectory and we all want to be. We want to better our world. What does that mean? We're gonna go back to the socialist conversation real quick. It means everything's equal. Well, if everything's equal, then how do I build my institution on top of this? You can't. Okay. So I have to differentiate myself from you, Julian. I have to differentiate. Differentiate myself from. From Chris. So what does that mean? Well, now I have to find differences.

[Julian]

I'm a brand.

[Nathan]

You're a brand. You're one of 50,000 denominations of Christianity. Now, it started with one. And it's because we have to be different when in reality Christ is saying we're all one in the same.

[Julian]

That's heavy, man.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Yeah. Now you. You had said something earlier because I do. I do want to get back to Copeland and the full investigation. You did, but I've had something in the back of my mind that we got off very early on. That was interesting. You were making a draw between. I want to say it was in the 60s where they were coming up with the code of how to declare yourself as church or religion. And you just kind of tossed in there on the side that, you know, the CIA was invented in the 40s. What. Why did you say that? What was the tie between those two?

[Nathan]

I got a call, maybe can't remember.

[Chris]

Now, several months ago.

[Nathan]

Several months ago from an unknown block number. And I don't know why I answered this one, but I did. Maybe I was in a good mood. And I answered this call and it was a gentleman who goes, hey, I've watched a lot of what you're doing. What do you know about the 14 point checklist? And so I gave him kind of my history spiel. Cause I had sat down with the gentleman that oversaw the nonprofit sector for five years at the IRS. So basically, like the leading brain at the IRS to oversee 1.5. Well, not 1.5, because that's global. Almost a trillion dollars in individual donor giving every year. So that's not including government grants. So this guy is like the brain that understands it all. So I regurgitated to this gentleman on the other line, hey, this is where it started. This is how it has come about. And he goes, okay, why would the US Government want to build that box? And I'm like, what do you mean? And he goes, is Christianity dangerous? And I said, yeah, true Christianity is super dangerous. And people ask why? And I go, well, these few thousand people without weapons transformed rum. Islam is dangerous. True Islam is dangerous. The Ayatollah. Look what it's done to the Middle East. True religion, whatever you believe is dangerous. Okay, well, if religion is dangerous, governments can't control it. So the government needs something to control organized religion. So they built the box with 14 points that you just need to check off to get someone to climb into the box. We're going to give you tax exemption so you save some money. That box holds everything. Islam and Christianity is like oil and water. It does not mix. So we need everything in a box that plays by the same rules. Now, we can put that box on the shelf and any politician or any president or any political party that's in power can pull that box off and move it where they need it to go. And if you step outside of that 14 points, you lose your tax exempt status.

[Julian]

What do you mean move it where they need to. Where they need it to go.

[Nathan]

This is a. This is where we call the death Rattle in the show. It's happened in history before. But when religion and politics combine, usually it's either the political power is losing authority or the, the majority religious power is losing authority. And so right now Christianity is trying to shove its moral compass in its moral authority down through the political structure. You can see it in D.C. right now 100%. And it's because they've abdicated their moral authority from the pulpit. The church is no longer looking like the church. The pastor doesn't look like a shepherd, they look like a celebrity. They, they have lost their moral authority and their moral high ground. So they're trying to do it from D.C. and this, this, this happens all throughout history and everywhere. And so right now you've got the death rattle going in D.C. but if, and basically what that means is reform is coming, it doesn't mean necessarily anything's dying physically. It just means reform to the system, whether that be political or religious is coming. And so reform is coming. You can hear the death rattle clanking around. And so if I am right or left, I don't care. I want to be able to use that where I need to use it if, if true Christian or I want to be able to place it where I need to place it, if that makes sense. And yeah, we're going to, we're going down a fascinating rabbit hole here, which, well, I just, I can't speak to it. But I'm saying, you know, as, as Islam grows in the U.S. you know, like I said, it's oil and water. So.

[Julian]

Yeah, why, why do you say that and it's oil and water? Because they do believe like Jesus was a prophet.

[Nathan]

They do believe Jesus was the prophet. I actually have great conversations with Muslims. One of my favorite restaurants in Utah is owned by this great Muslim guy named Mo. The Internet's flooded with money saving hacks, you know, like slicing up sponges and turning them into air fresheners. Well, turns out there's a better way to grow your savings. Introducing Verizon and Open Bank Savings, a new high yield savings account available only to Verizon customers. Grow your savings with a top tier 8 APY and shrink your wireless bill by up to 180 a year. Learn how to start saving today at verizon.com Start saving account applications subject to.

[Julian]

Approval by Open Bank, a division of.

[Nathan]

Santander bank and a member fdic. All deposits are held at Santander bank and a Verizon and its affiliates are not FDIC insured institutions. Mohammed and shout out Mo. Shout out Mo. Bro. Best ribeye in the business.

[Julian]

Wait, are they allowed to make that?

[Chris]

Hello.

[Julian]

Oh, that's right.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Wrong religion, sorry. I love halal food.

[Nathan]

He does sell bacon.

[Julian]

Can they have bacon?

[Nathan]

I don't.

[Chris]

I don't think so.

[Julian]

You're looking at me like I know.

[Chris]

I don't. I don't. I don't think so.

[Julian]

Okay.

[Nathan]

Capitalist. Capitalistic Muslim right there. Mo, you're the man. But what I mean by that is, like, theologically, it's oil and water and. How can I say this? Christians are meant to love their enemies. Christianity doesn't. We have to be different is what I'm saying.

[Julian]

Okay, that's interesting. So Christianity, the institution doesn't.

[Nathan]

Doesn't.

[Julian]

But individual Christians, if they followed the Bible, are supposed to.

[Nathan]

Correct. That's why I call myself a Christ follower. And I know it's kind of silly, but it's like the term Christian has so much stigma attached to it that I'm like, I'm a Christ follower. Like, I.

[Julian]

Interesting.

[Nathan]

I believe in Christ. I follow Christ.

[Chris]

Okay, who came up with the name Christian?

[Nathan]

I don't know.

[Chris]

The original Jesus never said you're a Christian.

[Nathan]

Yeah, no, the original. The original group of Christians call themselves followers of the Way.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

They said, I follow the Way because.

[Chris]

That'S what he called himself.

[Nathan]

I don't know. In Christianity, when the.

[Julian]

I mean, that's the English term as well. I mean, I'm just looking at it like, you take Christ and then you throw the Ian on it. Yeah. Like all these other terms. I. I don't know. Yeah, but like, how. What did they call it when they were in Greece? And what's the phonetic.

[Nathan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julian]

Laws there with how they do that?

[Nathan]

I don't know.

[Julian]

I'd have to get my boy Nico on the phone. But. But, you know.

[Nathan]

But think it's interesting from a government perspective. Think if you have two very contrasting religions, like Christianity and Islam. And that's the thing. Like, I have great conversations with my Muslim friends. Like, I walk into Islamic mosques and I'll talk to imams. I think it's fascinating to me, most Christians are terrified of those buildings.

[Julian]

Terrified.

[Nathan]

Absolutely terrified of them. Yeah. They see it as, like, up. You know, the enemy's coming to the States. And so it could create a massive problem. Or it already is. But so why you need them both in a box? In the same box?

[Julian]

Yeah, I think. I think a big part of it, looking at it from the outside, is just some of the cultural things, you know, where you. In strict forms of Islam, you Have women that are completely covered up. It's not, it's not Western. I, I think sometimes you make an equivalence and it's fair to do it between like Westernism and Christianity because that is a huge part of what, what built the West. And so when you see something coming in, then this case is in the form of another religion that is different than those values on that level. Some people have a certain type of reaction to that. And, and I guess that, I guess that's just culturally how we're wired.

[Nathan]

Well, cultures, you know, like, some cultures don't mix either, you know. Sure, it's, it's. And that's why assimilation. Like now we're just getting into geopolitics.

[Julian]

No, no, like, like how often do you see a Turk marry an Armenian? I'm sure it happens, but like. Yeah, you know what I mean?

[Nathan]

Yeah, it's, it's cultures are, are oil and water too. You know, it's. We are a culture that respects women's freedoms, you know, whether you agree with all of them or not, whether that be, you know, pro life or pro choice or whatever. But we, America is a culture. Western democracies are cultures of equality, basically. Islam is not a culture of equality. And so that right there is oil and water.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

And yeah, I don't want to speak too much to the political side, but, but so that's what I'm saying is oil and water. And so that's why if you can put dangerous faiths into a box and kneecap them, basically, then that box can be moved, it can be weaponized, and.

[Julian]

You can use it as a psyop, a psychological weapon if need be.

[Nathan]

Or you look at, you know, the Johnson Amendment and what's going on right now.

[Julian]

The Johnson Amendment.

[Nathan]

The Johnson Amendment is an amendment that basically said, hey, if you have tax exempt status, you cannot endorse candidates from the pulpit. It. And then only a small percentage, and I can't remember the exact percentage of your revenues can go to fundraising, in lobbying. And if you do, if you give more money than, than is allotted or if you endorse, your tax exemption could be threatened. So that you could see that as kneecapping, you know, but it's. When was it, when was it established, the Johnson amendment? The 70s.

[Julian]

What do we got?

[Nathan]

Yeah, 54 even. Okay, way back. Yeah. So 1954. So the Johnson repeal the provision. Well, well, he did, technically. So the IRS just came out and said, we will no longer come after you if you endorse candidates from the pulpit or if you Lobby. So religions or churches in particular can now be platforms for political campaigns. And technically they can be fundraising arms for politicians. So they've officially weaponized the church, whether that be right or left.

[Julian]

This is, this is a crazy, crazy rabbit hole to go into because it affects politics. Where politics gets, in my opinion, like bastardized and mixed up with religion as well. A great example is Benjamin Netanyahu. You have to give him a ton of credit for, and I don't like this, but you got it. You got to see what he did. Like if you have read books about him, read his own biography, which is like 1200 pages or whatever it is the guy, he's a long winded dude. But like this guy was openly setting up alliances in the United States with evangelical Christians for decades before going over to Israel and taking power and then pulling back on that thread to funnel money and completely warped political beliefs. If, if I may say so myself, where they use the Bible to, to try to justify things that are not justifiable and also completely change what it is. That's why you have someone like Ted Cruz come out and talk about the Bible, says we have to respect Israel when the Israel of the Bible is not the country that was created in 1948.

[Chris]

That's not, that's objectively that was crazy moment.

[Julian]

Yeah, no, I, I, I could think of a few of those. But you know, I see this and it's particularly jarring and hilarious, like darkly hilarious when you consider the fact that like Benjamin Netanyahu is an atheist, thinks religion's funny, like even, even practicing Jews. Yeah, stuff. But the minute you need some war, when some, some, you know, war whistles to go off, he'll get up there and say, amal tells us that we must bomb Gaza and like he expects to pull back on that thread. So when I see like American churches, whether they're megachurch, I don't care what they are that have like ties to that and are just, are getting up there on a pulpit and saying, hey, this is right. Something tells me, you know, I don't care who you were. I, I, something tells me Jesus didn't like what people did on October 7th. And something tells me he doesn't like what they're doing in Gaza right now. And I don't make any distinction between the two. And yet politically, money seems to funnel back and forth within our own government and other governments. That leads religious figures to become political figures who are just talking heads for people who are doing everything that is against what Jesus teaches.

[Chris]

Amen, brother.

[Nathan]

Brilliantly said. Yeah. Politics and religion run in parallel veins. And the veins are crossing right now, like I said, in the death rattle. And they will cling on to. And politic and religion will cling on to any power they can.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

And like, thankfully, we live in a, like, one good side of technology is, is you can learn about this all, all this stuff very quickly. And so it's, it's. Yeah. I'm going to reiterate, the Israel of the Old Testament is not the government that is currently in power.

[Chris]

That's right. And that goes back to this concept of, like, actually, like, picking up the Bible and reading it. Because, like, I'm not here to say whether Ted Cruz has or he hasn't, but when he referenced what he was taught in preschool about the Bible as his theology, like that says that you've got a pretty weak foundation on what the Bible actually says. And you're making some pretty large bets there. Senator Cruz.

[Julian]

Well, he's making big bets with money he's been paid, too. That's the thing. And, and it's always tough. It. Adam Friedland just did a, did a brilliant podcast with Congressman Richie Torres because there's both sides of the aisle with this problem. And you know, it's a very strange thing when you watch someone who, you know objectively has a brain up there make a facial expression in response to listening to a question where you can see, you don't. You could have the TV on mute and watch their face and know that in their head right now, the thought that's going in there is, well, I know what I want to say, but what can I say when that, when you see that it's over.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

And like, Adam did an incredible job. He wasn't even trying to. It just like, happened where it was very clear that there were, I don't know, some lobbying type reasons why Richie Torres could not give what should be the obvious answer and instead gave the Captain Idiot answer on certain things. And you have Friedland, who's also like a Jewish guy, by the way. Like, dude, can't we objectively, like, agree on something here? The difference between Torres, though, and Ted Cruz and some of the people we're talking about, though, is, is like, I, I would argue that my expectations for politicians are low. Know what I mean? My expectations for people who are leading a religious movement trying to follow Christ are high. Unfortunately, people like you are proving that my expectations should be markedly lower.

[Nathan]

Yes, yes. One thing, my brother, who's brilliant, like, big student of the Bible, loves checking Hebrew against Greek against Aramaic against, you know, the translations. Like he's, he's very brilliant and spends hours a day doing this. The dude gets up at like 3:30 every day and just studies this. He's going verse by verse across translations. It's incredible.

[Julian]

In the afternoon.

[Nathan]

No, in the morning. Okay, yeah. And he, we had a great conversation the other day about convictions and whether you have political convictions or religious convictions. As soon as you and I, and I always use this word, abdicate. As soon as you abdicate your conviction for the system you're a part of, you're done. And so I've come to the conclusion that every single paid pastor in, in the world abdicates their convictions for the institution.

[Julian]

No matter how much money they take.

[Nathan]

No matter how much money they take at some point. If you're a full time pastor, if you're like a bi vocational pastor who has a job outside, who might take a small stipend from the church, that's different. Because your livelihood is not totally dependent on the system. But if your livelihood is dependent on the continuation of an institution, you'll eventually abdicate your some part of your convictions to it. And as soon as you have, especially in religion, as soon as you abdicate a little bit of your faith, you're done. You're compromised because you are now a byproduct of the system. And I think it's similar in politics, right? Like the founding fathers believed that our politicians should be servants of the people. They come into that public role, stay for a bit and then they go back to their farm or their job and continue to work. They are servants of the people. And so my uncle was a multi turned congressman. He led the impeachment trials on Bill Clinton. And like he would say the same thing. You go in with good intentions and as soon as you abdicate on your belief or convictions a little bit, you're a byproduct of the system. And then God forbid, you've been there for 40 years or 50 years, you know, and you're worth 300 million bucks or whatever. Like you, you have no authority anymore to speak from the position you are because you're just a byproduct of the system. So politics and religion eats everybody that hops into it at the moment.

[Julian]

Yeah, I, I was talking with Alessi, the other guy I was talking about earlier, who used to be the producer in here and now now does the content. I was talking with him earlier because he had listened to your whole Sean Ryan podcast and really enjoyed it by the way and thought you made a lot of amazing points. And he's like a really religious guy. And so one of the things he was saying is he's like, the one part that I was like, I don't know how that could possibly work is similar to what you're saying now, which is that if someone's going to be a full time pastor, they're automatically, they're just at some point there's going to be something where you abdicate your beliefs for the future. He's like, if you're going to be a pastor, you have to be available to your congregants. You have to be there not just preaching. You got to be there for people in need. You got to go do house calls and something like that. You are filling your life with it. So he's like, I don't know how, you can't make any money doing that. And I thought about it and I didn't want to agree with him because I'm with you. I'm like, I don't think you should make any money on God. That's just what I believe. But from a, from a perspective of if you are actually going to serve your full congregation and you legit don't have time for a part time job because of that, to supplement your income, what is the way around that? I don't have an answer.

[Nathan]

That right there is tradition and culture as well. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you should be a full time pastor. Give up everything else doesn't say it. We've created that role in the institution and now we fall back on it to justify it. And it's really tough to because most of my formative memories, and I used to call them my best memories as a kid, but now I call them my formative memories because they're not really the best memories. It's the bias that I was raised in, but came from the institution, if that makes sense. And so hey, why do we need that full time youth pastor? Well, because my kids need to be taught the Bible. Shouldn't I be teaching my child the Bible?

[Julian]

What if you're not? What if you're not the best person to do that?

[Nathan]

Then my life is out of order and I need to get in order. And this is something one of our mentors says to look at your life, Nathan. And this was the most terrifying. He's like, look at your life, Nathan. And what part of your life is out of biblical order? And I was like, oh crap. Like there's a lot of it. Yeah, you Know, and, and he's like, most of your problems come because your life is out of order. And when you look at the church, the institution, it's all out of order. We've just built roles because the institution demanded that role. We built the institution that now needs that role. And so your friend like, or your editor like, I feel like he's almost to the to, he's almost come to understand it. But it's still to Christ's point. In most of the gospels we've built traditions and call it doctrine. I am, I have everything I need to understand that book. I've got two eyes that work like a mouth that can speak. And we abdicate our roles so much. Like I abdicate my role for teaching my daughter the scriptures. I abdicate my role for prayer because I'm tired with her. I abdicate my role to make sure like she's learning what I think she should learn in schools because I don't have time. It's like same thing. Yeah, I don't want to go down too many rabbit holes, but it's like in America we've built, we've cluttered our lives so much that we forgot making the main thing, the main thing which is family. And so it's, I agree with that. It's, I need to take. So that's why we always say our first ministry. Like when you look at biblical ministry is my family. Like if I cannot find time to teach my daughter the scriptures and I believe this is my salvation, like crisis, I'm, my order is way off.

[Julian]

You know what though? And, and this does need to be said. And I'm not saying your order's not off with that, but I'd love your guys thoughts on this. You know, 30 years ago, the like I, I believe in the American dream. I believe it's still alive. I believe this is best place to live. I, I think, I think you can go make something of yourself. And I'd like to think, you know, there's plenty of examples out there listening right now of you guys who, who can attest to that. That said, I would never argue with the fact that it, the deck has been stacked much harder than it used to be. And if we're looking at the post 911 world, but more specifically the post financial crisis world and the world since the beginning of the 1980s when you can go back and see that V form on the chart where the middle, middle class gets legislated away. We are now in a position where society has generationally placed all these expectations on people and families to the point that families are being monetized away. People can't afford to have kids. And then the people that do, well, guess what? They got to pay the bills and their check hasn't. Their. Their. Their salary hasn't kept up with the inflation that's happened over the past, even 10 years, to the point that they struggle not only to put food on the table, but how the. Am I going to put a kid through college or whatever? And so maybe they haven't. If. If they're a Christian or something like that or any religion, they haven't fully prioritized the North Star of their religion. But through no fault of their own, the world has sent so many challenges their way that that hasn't even been a realistic option. And I know that's like, not as.

[Nathan]

Like, the rabbit hole. The rabbit hole. I was like, I don't want to go down this rabbit hole. Was dual income, the need for dual income.

[Julian]

Okay, well, let's go down it.

[Nathan]

Because that. I got a piss. Can I go?

[Julian]

Oh, yeah, yeah. We'll be right back. Just tell me next time. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

I'm like.

[Julian]

All right, we're back. Before we get into that, we're going to talk about dual income and something like that. We just got off air and saw. I. We're recording this. Charlie Kirk just. Just got shot. And it's. I don't know. It was an hour ago. So we're. This is coming out probably a couple weeks after we record. So hopefully there was some sort of good outcome here, but that. That did not look good. And, like, I don't care what you think about what people say or what you agree with or not. There is just something really broken in society that stuff like this happens. You know, everyone right now is fighting over also what happened to that poor girl on that train the other day. And Charlotte was just viciously attacked. And it's just like, I got the picture outside the studio, Bill the Butcher from Gangs in New York. And that's the scene where he's looking at Leonardo DiCaprio and non sequitur says civilization is crumbling. And some. I. I really am an optimist, but sometimes it's hard not to look at that and wonder. Like, man, was that movie they were making while September 11th was happening, you know, really onto something there.

[Nathan]

Yeah, that's the most horrific. Like, I. Yeah, I am just disgusted at that. And, you know, I didn't know Charlie or I don't know Charlie personally, but that society is just crumbling and it's yeah. So my prayers are with Charlie and his family and I know our prayers are. Because it's just so sad. Like you have a father, you know, who's. I always say to people who are dissenters against our opinion or whatever is. We're just on the opposite sides of the same coin. Like you and I are actually brothers or sisters or whatever. And we don't see. We were talking about that frickin sliver in you and in me. And when we don't see that, when everything is chance, Julian, when life doesn't fucking matter, like I'll go out guns blazing and that's what we're missing is we're missing hope and we're missing that sliver in you and sliver in me and sliver and Charlie. Whether I agree with Charlie or not, like he is created for something bigger than just chance and we take it, you know, just like the train. Just like that horrific thing on the train. The train. Like when we have no hope, we just have no value in life. And so I think it's ironic that we were talking about the pendulum with Jesus and where you fall on that pendulum because it's like when Christ says, I am the way, the truth and the life. Like, that's what I believe. Society is missing right now. And, and you know, that's order. Yeah, it's, it's just so sickening to see that's.

[Julian]

That I just have a pit in my stomach. I, I don't.

[Chris]

Where does this like work? Like you, you mentioned this, right? Like society's crumbling and that's like within our America. Like, and you see all these. Yesterday there was the strike in Qatar. You know, Qatar had just donated that, that plane to Trump, right. And they're investing a lot of money in the United States and then, and then they got, they got struck. And then you have all these nations across the world that are fighting each other and then we have all this inner fighting going on within the United States. Like, where do you think this goes?

[Julian]

I mean, I'm a YouTuber, so I don't know, you know, but you, but.

[Chris]

You say that, but you're, but you're, you're, you've dedicated your life and career to like a lot of these issues, right? And researching and talking about them and interviewing different people and from different walks of walks of life, right? Like, yeah. Do you think we end up in a, like a civil type war here?

[Julian]

Again, I'm, I'm an optimist. Are there things that I'll say like, oh, I'm cynical about this or that and I really am. Yes. But like, I do like to see the good in people. I don't, I don't think we would end up in something like that. And I'm very careful about bringing. That is a big, big, big term. And part of it is also you can't get caught up in the world you live in. I live in a world where a job of mine is to understand what's happening on the Internet. And there's a lot of people who care about that, but there's a lot of people who don't. And I've always talked about this wah wah theory. When I was living in my parents house during COVID for three and a half years building this thing, you know, I was sociable in the fact that people came through my, through the house, but I was, I locked myself off from the world while I was building this. And so one of the rare respites or whatever, if that's a proper use of that term I would get is when I would pick up guests from the airport on the way home, we'd stop at Wawa, you know, and I'd, you know, get them one, whatever they wanted before the podcast and when things were getting weird, I mean, they were weird the whole time, but you know, when shit would be going down online, I would just look, watch people in the Wawa and I would see the pink haired girl with three nose rings holding the door for the guy with the, with the nom hat. And there was no like or anything like that. I was like, oh, thank you so much. And people went about their life and I realized I'm like, those two people, if they were behind keyboards right now, if they are, would probably be dehumanizing each other. But in the real world, it's not the keyboard. Sometimes though, we see that come out in like what we just saw. And that's what scares me. That's where I worry about like, would people go in the streets with stuff? And, and, and I don't, I don't want to see that. And, and I think, I think I take it really seriously to have a, whatever responsibility I have doing what I do, to have voices represented across the spectrum of different ideas. Obviously I'm a generalist, I do a lot of different topics. But also to try to not go to extremes with, you know what, regardless of what side it's on with people who have extreme beliefs and that's for someone else to do. You know what I mean? I, I like to think the Average person is the average person and we'll be all right. That's kind of my long winded answer. But yeah, when you see stuff like that, it's. I mean that's horrific.

[Nathan]

But that's brilliantly said. And that goes back to that sliver in each of us. You know, that blue haired earring, three earrings, girl, like, respects the dignity of this other individual and vice versa. And that's literally what the true church is supposed to be. Yeah, it's supposed to be this organic body that moves and moves through these shitty systems that we've built. These vulnerable like greed and ego driven systems. And when the church isn't the church, everything else goes to and the church is not the church. And it's like, that's all I can say to that literally dis disgusting video. And then the other one of the girl on the train. The church has totally lost its way. And so how can any other system find its way if the literal beacon of light is dark as hell?

[Julian]

Well, you, you defined it well today when you separate church from like physical church or organizational church or whatever, you're saying the church is supposed to be like, like, and I'm paraphrasing here, but it's really supposed to get the core of what it is, which is the belief in like Jesus and God and doing things the right way. I think as annoying as it is to see some of these organizations take advantage of this, and you guys are doing a great job exposing that, as you should. If I were looking at it from your perspective as like true Christians who want the right things, there you do have to say in the last two or three years, whatever it is, I don't know, but there's a massive movement publicly, and I would say like even to define it, like on social media. Yeah, of like people becoming Christians or becoming spiritual or becoming religion and you know, turn into something that's higher than themselves. And you know what? Sometimes I'll see it and I'm like, someone feels like a bandwagon jumper, but a lot of times I see it, I'm like, dude, good for that person. They seem like, they seem like they're really into that and they found some peace and there's something in the world, maybe it was Covid itself or whatever came with that. I don't know, something in the world maybe move that in that direction. Do you, do you see that too?

[Chris]

When that happens, that creates one of the most vulnerable bodies of people. You maybe you can call it baby Christians, but Nathan, if you want to Talk a little bit about like the scriptural references to, to that along with like, why, why Jesus said that was so such a protected group.

[Nathan]

Yeah. You know, Jesus said, I'd rather have a millstone hung around someone's neck and thrown into the water and kill them, you know, than lead a baby astray or lead a child astray. And he was speaking about young Christians. So when you find faith, you have the utmost joy, which we see all over social media. Where do you go from there? If you walk into Hillsong or one of these mega churches, like, you're officially about to be fed a false gospel. Something that looks nothing like Christ.

[Julian]

Right.

[Nathan]

So I feel like our role is more important than ever. The religion business role, because we're here pre. I believe we're preaching the gospel. I believe we're preaching who Christ is, how we should live our life. And that's what this whole wave of young baby Christians needs to hear. They need to know that, hey, read the Bible cover to cover. It's actually not that hard when you read it as a history book because it comes alive. Like, start praying, get in prayer alone. Those two things are the greatest tools for you to expand your faith and deepen your faith. And like, there was a Stanford study done. There was a megachurch out of Chicago, one of the first in the U.S. 30,000 seats to their hat. I tip my hat to leadership at this time, I think it was 98 or late 90s. They hired Stanford in their economist to study how their congregants could deepen their faith because congregants were kind of frustrated. It was a conveyor belt, you know, you. And this is the, this is the danger of these systems. These baby Christians come in, sit for six months, give their money, it's all like fun and games. And then they just stop coming. The only reason why they keep their numbers up is because a new person sits in that seat for six months and then leaves. New person sits in that seat and leaves. And so the church was like, dang, how can we retain these amazing young believers? And how can we deepen their faith? Stanford does this multi, like in depth study. I think it was over two years. They come back with two things. Read your Bible alone and pray alone. That's how you deepen your faith. Everything else is just man made tradition. And so what everybody, like, I'm just trying to correlate it back to Charlie. Like you are right. There's this huge wave of. A lot of pastors are screaming revival, but it's like revival to what, like, to singing more songs.

[Julian]

Right.

[Nathan]

To giving you more money. Like, unless the person's heart is changed and they live out because it says faith without works is dead, and they live out carrying that cross. That's what the world needs more than ever right now. The world needs literally people that are willing to sit with that dude who's so broken that he feels his. His only resort is to shoot Charlie. Like, that dude needs to be like, loved on somewhere in his life. His ecclesia. There was no body around him and so he just gave up. And he goes, this is the last, last thing that. That career criminal who stabbed that poor girl. Like, that's just. That is demonic. Like.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

Talk about. Let's talk about demons right now.

[Julian]

Like, that was my thought there.

[Nathan]

Yeah. Anytime you feel you need to pull a weapon and shoot a guy sitting in the chair, no matter how much you disagree with him, there is something evil there.

[Julian]

He looked like. When. When you're watching it on the. On the footage, it looked like a character like in a Joker movie, like just starts playing with the knife. She's not doing anything. And then just. And it's just. Yeah, that. That's. Is impossible to see that stuff and not wonder how far back the fork in the road went wrong. Because guess what? It wasn't yesterday. I mean, him. We know that for a fact. But like, you know, and, and we were just saying off camera, someone who shoots Charlie Kirk, like that is obviously someone who doesn't like what he has to say. You want to immortalize someone, do that to him. You want to make what they have to say carry that much more weight. If. If you don't like it, do that. I mean, that's. It's. It's having that. It's going to have the opposite effect.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

One, one thing that was fascinating, Nathan was talking to Sean Ryan and I think you had had a conversation with a former ms.13 member and this concept of your 10 bad decisions away from murder. Would you mind breaking that down?

[Julian]

Oh, yeah.

[Nathan]

Yeah. I used to spend a lot of time in Mexico and Central America back in the day. And. And I did get a comment wrong on the train name that. There's a train that runs from the Guatemala border to the US border and it's called the Beast and gangs run it. And basically you climb on top. It's a transport train for produce and all that. And you climb on top and it'll just take you all the way to the border. And certain gangs run certain lines and you have to pay your way. And so I interviewed a girl who was trying to get to America, and she brought her little cousin along and didn't tell her female cousin that you're going to be raped because you're. You're my payment to get me to the border.

[Julian]

Oh, my God.

[Nathan]

And. And so I would go to the. There was a convent next to one of the stops. And so this convent would take anybody in, gang member, traveler, whoever. They would just love on anybody that walked through that door. And so I did a bunch of interviews, and then I got to this gang member, and he was young. I can't remember. I do. I want to pull this footage, actually. It's. It's on my LTO tapes from over 20 years ago, and I want to find it because I wasn't even thinking about bringing this up on Sean, but it just came. So we're going to pull this off these analog tapes, and I have my translator next to me because I didn't speak Spanish, and this guy's fluent Spanish. And he's like, yeah, I was raised on the streets, was hungry, and Ms. 13 picked me up. They gave me food. And he goes, I'll tell you right now, you. And he was talking to me or 10 steps away from murdering someone. And I was like, what do you mean? And he's like, you're 10 bad decisions in a row away from murdering someone. So you and I aren't that different, actually. And it, like, really rocked me. And I started looking at all my actions in life like that, you know? And I always use the analogy of, like, road rage. You know, I'm driving down the road I carry, and some guy cuts me off and I flip him off and honk. That's like, bad decision one, I should just let him go. Bad decision two is I pull up alongside him and tell him to pull over. Bad decision three is both of us get out of our car. He's armed, too. You know, you just see the escalation of ego and pride in all of this. And so I can't help but think, like, through this government, like, what poor decisions and bad decisions did you make that you felt that was your conclusion?

[Julian]

Here's the one thing I would disagree with the MS.13 guy on. He might. And maybe I'm wrong here. Maybe this isn't what he meant, but it seems like he's making the leap to, like, we're not that different because we're both capable of that. I think there is a huge difference between recognizing that all human beings, including yourself, are capable of the worst things, if you go the wrong way. And understanding that there are a lot of choices that happen in most cases along the way to get there. It kind of reminds me like that old Jordan Peterson thing where he's like, you could all be a Nazi, you.

[Nathan]

Know, but I haven't heard that.

[Julian]

You know, he's like, you have the capability of being one. And he, I think psychologically he's on to something there. The idea that you would actually full blown become that. You can't know until you get the opportunity to do that. Do you make this the A or B decision? Then you make the next A or B decision. Are you making the right one or the wrong one? But to be aware of the capability, your capacity to be a monster, you know?

[Nathan]

100.

[Julian]

Yes. It's real.

[Nathan]

100%. Yeah. And so I just look at this guy and I'm like, he looks like a grandpa, you know, when he's like bald, white hair, it's like white. Like, you look like a. Ironically, it's Utah, which is just gnarly to think about. But, yeah, we, we are in charge of our own decisions, you know, but what leads a guy to do that? Like, I don't know.

[Chris]

There's a, There's a pastor that zap in the Pacific Northwest, right. That he came out on, on. On his last sermon or whatever, and he said that somebody was trying to put a hit on him because of, of what he was speaking up against.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

So, I mean, this stuff's like running all over.

[Nathan]

Yeah. So it's like, like, I know it's super cliche, but what the world needs right now is Jesus, you know, and we're all some. And we're all supposed to pick up our cross and follow him, which means, hey, like, if we were actually acting like there's 2.3 billion Christians in the world. Christians own 55 of the world's wealth. Like, and we can get into the positive side I guess here, but it's like, how are. I live in the Mecca of Mormonism? Like, how is there so much hate and so much homelessness and so many problems right in like, Utah's backyard, which is, you know, they're supposed to be the light on the hill, they're the temple. And it's like all the money in resources, silo at the top. And I, like, all I can think when I, when I look at that is just people have no hope.

[Julian]

Yes, that's. And that's why I was asking you earlier, like, what makes someone eventually follow that? And the The. Or. Or, like, go to Kent Copeland or whatever. And you were saying, well, you know, they could start at 12, and it's very hard for. For people to admit they're wrong. But also, the people that maybe don't have that traumatic event I was referring to have happened to them who are just, you know, 24 years old and going through a tougher time and looking for something. They go there and they feel something, because that day they get caught the right way, then it becomes a part of their belief system, and they assume they. They overlook all the other stuff that could come with that. And again, that does not make them stupid. We are all susceptible to something like that. And they could fall for something like Kenneth. But that's why it's important, like, what you guys are doing to point that out with. With your documentary. But before I get you out of here, I. I do want to talk about when you guys actually confronted this, because it was. It was amazing. Amazing work with Tommy G. First of all, how did you get connected with. With Tommy. What was the.

[Chris]

Tyler. Tyler, A guy named Tyler Sherman. Who?

[Julian]

Come on.

[Nathan]

Yeah, come on.

[Chris]

Yeah. You know Tyler. He's a legend, right?

[Julian]

Everybody knows.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Tyler calls you.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Would you be interested in talking with Tommy G. He does a documentary on you. Okay, I'll let him know right now.

[Nathan]

So that's literally exactly. Yeah, he's not good.

[Julian]

Shout out, Tyler.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah. We met him through. We did. The first big podcast we did was Sean Kelly's. And then we got put into Sean Kelly's mastermind. And then I put a message out there introducing the religion business. And then he. Like, within five minutes, I had a phone call him, and then he introduced us to. To Tommy, obviously stuck. And then what was the other guy? Turkey Tom.

[Nathan]

Turkey Tom, yeah.

[Julian]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's Brandon Buckingham's buddy.

[Nathan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Julian]

Okay, so Tommy, obviously, really good friend of mine, does amazing work, covers a lot of stories that people are, like, afraid to cover, and, man, he's good at it. And he does. And he does a whole bunch. It's a wide gamut at this point. But did. Was it, like, from. From day one, when you're talking with them? Are. Were you guys already plotting, like, yo, let's see if we could, like, break onto an airstrip here?

[Nathan]

Well, I can't remember the exact. The exact flow because I've just got. We've got so many investigations that we had open, but I just watched some of his stuff, and I'm like, oh, he'd be good. I had Already strategized about wanting to see the parsonage, you know, because I'm like, no one's been to it. Like, it's never been publicly seen. The church owns it. I had been giving to Copeland for a while, and I'm like, who would have the balls to jump on this. This story with me? And, like, as soon as I saw Tommy's work, I'm like, tommy G, for sure.

[Julian]

I'm going to give him $69.

[Chris]

Oh, I love that.

[Julian]

He just kept hitting that. I gave him 69. You guys, a guy flashes. Like, people haven't seen this. You guys literally ended up on his private airstrip.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Security rolls up. It looked like a South park episode.

[Nathan]

Yeah, it pretty much was.

[Julian]

And then some dude that literally look at like, a South park character rolled up in one of those, like, I have a small dick machines.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Like, hit the brakes, came out and showed a fake bag. Tommy's like, let me see that patch again. I gave 69.

[Nathan]

Yeah. Well, the best part about that whole thing is people thought it was staged. They're like, this is Hollywood. Because it was so good. Like, just his outfit. And ironically, I had gone with our camera operator to the thrift store the day before, and I just decided to buy the stupidest get up I could. So, like, that whole setup I bought at the thrift store for like 40 bucks. And the pants were like three sizes too big. They were like six inches too long, but it was the only ones they had. And so I already looked like a frigging cartoon character. And then this guy comes up and our. Our clothes actually matched. That was that. We were both wearing orange. Like, it was the funniest, like, standoff. But yeah, it was. It was hilarious.

[Julian]

That video Joe, is at like the 21 minute mark. It's a 39 minute video.

[Nathan]

But.

[Julian]

Oh, my God, I remember when that. Because you got. He was here in New York filming episode 242 with me. And then I think he went right out there. This was last year.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

And then. So you guys had to wait a while to put this out. And I didn't ask him about this because I was going to ask you about this was part of that, like, legal ramifications and stuff like that because of where you went and you're worried about any blowback or.

[Nathan]

No, we just wanted both videos to hit at the site. Like, we wanted our show, the religion business and his to drop at the same time just for the biggest punch. Okay.

[Julian]

By the way, great acting on your part on the phone. And you're like turning to him. Like it's like Ari Gold talking. But every. This is what I love about Tommy. Like, just the little things. While you're on the phone, you're saying all these fake things to him and the guy on the other end's like, what do you say here to answer your prayer? Or something like that. Like it was something that was just like off. But you're talking and you're saying things. And he's like, yeah, I'm here with my friend. He gave 69. I was like, yeah. Blows and kissed in the sky starts.

[Nathan]

Did I really say that? I don't remember that.

[Julian]

I don't.

[Chris]

Let's.

[Julian]

Let's play. But he started. He was like playing along with it. Let's play this, Joe.

[Nathan]

It is. Yeah. Oh, I would love. How can I pray you through today? Is there a way to meet him? I was just really praying to be able to sit with him and get some wisdom from him. So I've been praying for a while to be able to meet him. I've reached out to him a few times and he hasn't responded. Yeah, we're at the gate to his house, but it's not open.

[Chris]

You see the deer blind?

[Julian]

Yeah, I'm not sure.

[Nathan]

I'm not sure how that works.

[Julian]

Oh, no, we're already by his house.

[Nathan]

Yeah, there's three gates and ironically the two first gates open for us. And I see that as an act of God, to be honest. It takes a passcode and I don't have it. Do you have that passcode? Oh, okay. We've all become members.

[Julian]

I donated $69.

[Chris]

69.

[Nathan]

That's a. That's a big number. Some.

[Julian]

Should we train for the gate code?

[Nathan]

But apparently another road, but it'll have the same. God's busy right now, so we're going to go to the private tarmac that he has named after.

[Chris]

After himself.

[Nathan]

And we're gonna further explore when we discovered that it was this huge mansions right there.

[Julian]

So you guys will see. We'll put the link down below. You guys can see the full confrontation that I was describing a couple minutes ago happened. But like keeping your wits. The guy flashed a real gun.

[Nathan]

Oh yeah.

[Julian]

Keeping your wits during that. And then you got the two security honchos there that look like PC Principal from South Park.

[Nathan]

Well, I'm gonna give them props. They were like a legit security detail. Like they. Their goal was to de escalate, you know, so they showed up and you can. There's this really fascinating Dichotomy between professional security and then most church security. Because, like, my brother runs church security. He's a sniper. He was a retired sniper from the marines, and he helps his church with security. So you have these really strategic, trained men and women. And then, like, two thirds of their armed forces are just, like, cowboys that want to, like, you know, want to protect the quote, unquote, church here to serve the Lord. Exactly. So the. The first car approaches, and they get out, no hands on guns. Like, immediately, you know, de escalation. Hey, what are you guys doing here? And I'm like, we have some questions. And they're like, the one of them was kind of snipping. He's like, I asked the questions here. You don't ask me questions. And Tommy and I are just talking to him, and then out of nowhere, like, John Ritter comes pulling up in his. In his car, almost hits us, jumps out, flashes his gun, assaults both of us. Like, just grabs us. And that's when the professional security grabbed him, because they're like, you just assaulted both these dudes. And they, like, kind of push him against his vehicle. And then, of course, Tommy and I are just kind of jackasses. So we snip at him a little bit, and then he comes barreling back again and opens his coat again. And it was just a fun interaction. And the goal with that is. Copeland is estimated to be worth 750 million bucks. You know, he lives on a. I think the property is 1200 acres, the church property. Now, he promised to build six things in his pitch. So he would send out mailers saying he wanted to build these six things.

[Julian]

In, like, the 60s and 70s.

[Nathan]

In the 70s. And it was the ministry building, his radio station, his TV network, a hotel for his congregants, a park, and then an elderly retirement community. So he raised tens of millions of dollars through these mailers. He builds the ministry facility, his radio station, and his TV network. He never builds the hotel.

[Julian]

Never be Kim Young Copeland.

[Nathan]

Exactly. Well, and the big thing is we went to the city because we wanted to see if he had even pulled or. Or saw if he could get power and water out there. There. Like, if you're building. His church is out there in the boonies.

[Julian]

So how far outside Dallas?

[Nathan]

It's outside Fort Worth.

[Chris]

Yeah, it's like, a good hour drive from Dallas.

[Julian]

So west.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Nathan]

Yeah. And I mean, like, it's out there, and there was nothing there when he bought this property. So if you're claiming to build a hotel in a retirement community just to get utilities in there. I don't even know. Tens of millions to pipe utilities.

[Julian]

Oh, yeah.

[Nathan]

So we went to the city to see if we could find any record of him even seeing if he could build these, and we found nothing. Well, so, you know, maybe it's buried in some archive. But the city gave us no documentation, said they couldn't find anything. So we don't even think Kenneth even really tried to build any of these that he said he was going to build. And that's a fraud. I would call Kenneth a fraud. He promised to build those three things, never even tried to build them. And in the for profit world, we call that fraud.

[Julian]

Allegedly.

[Nathan]

Allegedly. And in the. In the non profit world, we call it faith. God just hasn't blessed him enough to build them yet.

[Julian]

I had to buy.

[Nathan]

Exactly.

[Julian]

It looks so good.

[Chris]

Tyler gave me such a good deal.

[Julian]

Such a good deal. God wants.

[Chris]

You're pretty good at, oh, impersonation.

[Julian]

He's just like.

[Chris]

We were talking about socialism earlier. I thought you were going to break out Bernie Sanders billions.

[Julian]

I haven't worked on Bernie in a while. I gotta work on that one. If you want me to do rfk.

[Nathan]

I can get all day about everything.

[Julian]

That they're putting in the church water to infect us with this disease.

[Chris]

It's.

[Julian]

And the CIA killed my father.

[Nathan]

That's pretty good.

[Julian]

That one's. That one I could whip out, but.

[Nathan]

That'S probably your best. That's your best.

[Julian]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Chris]

That's a hard one to hit.

[Julian]

I don't. My trump is. Yeah, I gotta work on that.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Yeah. I haven't. I haven't done the mirror thing enough, you know? Yeah, I got to get the hand motions down.

[Nathan]

As we were driving over here, I said I would love. And we're gonna put a post out on this in about a week. I'm calling out every pastor that we've got in the show. Copeland, Ed Young, you name it. I want to debate one of them publicly.

[Julian]

Have you heard from any of Copeland's people since this documentary went out? Any lawyers, any congregants saying he's really not like that?

[Nathan]

Tons of congregants, but they all agree with us.

[Julian]

Oh, they agree with you.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

I'll tell you right now, what's happening is untouchable. So is we get evidence dumped on us daily. More evidence from congregants, from accountants, from security guards.

[Julian]

Oh, that's awesome.

[Nathan]

Yeah, they're like, we saw. We saw your show, or we saw you on Sean, and here you go.

[Julian]

That's awesome that that's you having an effect in the real world.

[Chris]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Julian]

Oh, he's probably punching so much air in that mansion.

[Nathan]

Yeah. There's. There's. And. And we believe, you know, since there's no 990 that's filed with churches, their finances are all opaque, so no one knows the true finances. And everybody's like, are you guys worried you're going to get sued? And I'm like, we're like, not really, because we're going to do discovery if we get sued, which means you have to show us the financials, which means, hey, that little pie chart that you're going to put on the table, we're going to say, we can't trust this. We want bank statements.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

And so none of them want to play that game. No. And.

[Chris]

And so that's how we got a lot of our evidence in the first place, was lawsuits.

[Nathan]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Julian]

No, this is where it can be used as a good tool, for sure.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Julian]

They can outspend you guys. Maybe not with Chris's pockets.

[Nathan]

No, they. They can.

[Julian]

They probably start spending you. But it. You have the discovery thing on your side because they've built an entire system where they're not transparent. So the best they can do, and I'm not a legal scholar, but the best they can do is try to, like, throw a few extra hearings on your bill in there, but that. It gets to that part pretty quick.

[Nathan]

Yeah. And like, we. We've had, again, congregants call us. We've had leadership call us in churches, and they're like, hey, we watched your documentary. We went in and asked a few questions. They wouldn't answer, so we left or we quit. And I'm like, okay. One in particular, I was like, okay, so what do you think their next play is? Because they're a big. This one institution in particular is really big. And they're like, they're hoping your story is just going to go away because, like, they're begging for it to just. They're probably praying. Copeland's like, God, bring another 2008 disaster. Another miracle.

[Julian]

But, yeah, wanted him have 750 million. That's probably the next sale for sure.

[Chris]

Then Sean Ryan happened.

[Nathan]

Then Sean Ryan happened. And that's like, one pastor reached out to Sean's team already and said what? All I told him was, tell him I'll publicly debate him on Sean's show. What did.

[Julian]

What did he say to that?

[Nathan]

We're going to find out later tonight.

[Julian]

And that's what I'm saying, if you really believe in what you're doing, go put your voice behind it. Go stand with a guy like you who studied it. You know, you guys, this is what you do, right? You shouldn't be afraid of that.

[Nathan]

I'll debate any of them.

[Julian]

Listen, I will. If someone ends up being legit, I don't know how you can be legit with hundreds of millions of dollars. But, like, if there's a way to prove that or whatever, and, and in the public forum, they prove that, hey, I'll sit here and say, all right, good for you. Yeah, but, like, they've never done it and they live in their little ivory towers. And I just appreciate those people who also come at it. You know, you're not outside the religion. You're very much your believers yourself, and you're doing this job. I like that a lot.

[Chris]

There is a lot, a lot of evidence that was not put forth in the docu series because people wouldn't have believed it. And so just to be like, fair to a warning out there to those that may have that idea, we have more.

[Julian]

Can you give one example of that that you're willing to give publicly?

[Nathan]

Money drops in the Caymans. We've got lots of money drops, meaning, like private planes landing in the Caymans for 90 minutes and bouncing out with cash. We've got.

[Julian]

That's not. I 1000% believe that. Yeah, I'm sure they do that. Check Switzerland, too.

[Nathan]

We've got stories of, of gun running from the Middle east on private jets. Drug running.

[Chris]

Yeah, it's a little more.

[Nathan]

We have stories.

[Julian]

Are they working with the cartels, too?

[Nathan]

I don't know. We have stories of murder, like, literal stories on people, people being murdered.

[Julian]

I, I security guards in particular. I unfortunately, 100 believe that security for.

[Chris]

People refer to security for a. For pastor, referred to as his hired gun, not security. Be very clear about that.

[Nathan]

Mm. Yeah. All in the name of Jesus, you know?

[Julian]

Yeah, no, that's not, that's not in the name of anything.

[Nathan]

Well, it's the name of the brand. You're protecting your brand.

[Julian]

Right. You know, that's what they say. But it's like, same thing that when, when people do war in the name of religion, that makes no sense. It's like, yeah, you're just using it for your own means.

[Nathan]

And I'll tell you out there, man, I'll tell you right now, everybody's like, oh, so the seven docus, the seven part docu series, the religion business, it's done. Ah, we're just Getting started. So it's like, just know. We always say, you know, Christ in John 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. It's one of the most. Like, I learned that verse when I was like 4 years old. What people don't read is the verses right after it where it talks about why Christ came into the world and he came to be the light. But men loved the darkness rather than the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed and his deeds are evil. And so we say, right now we're just turning the light on. That's all we're doing. We're turning the transparency light on. And the cockroaches and rats will run, and then the pastors who are for the light will walk towards us. And we do see that already. So this is the positive side, is there's so many pastors hitting this up, being like, I agree with you or I partially agree with you. What can we do to be more accountable? And I'm like, hey, we've got a great conversation going here. But then the rats and roaches are running transparency.

[Chris]

Well, that's why we created Broken Shepherds. So Nathan and his due diligence discovered 10 loopholes where a couple hundred billion every year just disappears to fraud, waste, abuse. And in your meant. And in your mint's a new word for a lot of people, Nathan, if you want to.

[Julian]

Yeah. What is.

[Chris]

Expand on that.

[Nathan]

Yeah. So in your mint's a legal term. If you want 501C3 status, you can't in yourself.

[Julian]

Okay.

[Nathan]

So in your mint is basically no net profits of a 501C3 can take the benefits of that profit. And then you're the leadership, which basically means like, hey, you can't use the nonprofit for your own gain. If your mission is to help homeless people, all those net profits need to go to helping homeless people. You can take a salary, but all those net profits need to go to there in your min is basically, hey, I don't want the headache of flying public, so I want to buy a jet. I would call that in your mint. And the IRS sadly goes. It's gr. It's a gray area and really hard for the law to like, bring justice into that system.

[Julian]

You're trying to prove intention behind what they're doing.

[Nathan]

Correct.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

And so it's like, okay. And we don't even care actually about this. Like, if you're. If your pastor's got a private jet. From a broken shepherd's perspective, even a religion, business perspective, the shows. We don't care if your pastor makes 20 million bucks a year. We don't care as long as your congregants know that you're paying yourself 20 million bucks and have a private jet. But right now, no one does. Right. And so it's like, I wonder why. Yeah, exactly. Because you're inuring yourself, you know, and so at what point we can't be the arbiter of truth, and we're not the arbiter of the truth. We believe Christ is the arbiter of truth and his teachings are. So, okay, what are we doing? We're just flipping that transparency light on and through precedent through the last hundred years, 115 years since the nonprofit sector was defined, like religions or Christianity in particular, and churches have been able to do whatever they want pretty much. So it is a think of decades, sometimes generations of abuse. That is a dark, dark web of a mess.

[Julian]

Well, there's. Listen, we're living in a world where transparency is much more sought after and attainable because of the power of the Internet and people's ability to go find information or leak information or, or, you know, get messages out, whatever it may be. And like, if you think about it in the concept of world history or even history like post Jesus last 2,000 years or so, we're basically 18, 19 years effectively into the social media era, Internet 2.0, where people can really share their ideas. So generationally, we're just going to college.

[Nathan]

It's a flash in the pan, right?

[Julian]

It's a flash in the pan. So these are the, still the very early days of learning how to use these tools to be able to hopefully use them for good. Yeah. Like you guys are doing. So it's great to see, like, you guys are just beginning with this and there's going to be more to come. But we will link the documentary link down below so people can check that out. You guys worked on this for a long time. There's going to be more content after that. And you know, I try not to let, I try to let people decide for themselves on some things on, on pretty much everything. Naturally, I, I do have some opinions on, on people that, that sell God, it's just a, it's, it's a personal pain point for me. So I appreciate that there's guys like you who are out there, you know, shining a light on it. Yeah, you said.

[Chris]

Thanks, brother.

[Nathan]

All right, awesome.

[Julian]

Do it again sometime.

[Nathan]

Yeah, thanks. So much for having us.

[Julian]

All right, everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that, like, button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my descri.