Julian Dorey Podcast #356 – Summary & Key Takeaways

Guest: John Kiriakou (Former CIA Officer, Whistleblower, Author)

Date: November 18, 2025

Main Theme

A dynamic, deeply candid exploration of nuclear war risks, intelligence operations, US-Israel-Iran relations, surveillance tech (Vault 7, Palantir), Middle East geopolitics, and the often-unseen realities within the intelligence community. Kiriakou shares firsthand insights—including espionage tactics, historical anecdotes, modern surveillance threats, and his personal journey from CIA history to whistleblowing and beyond.

Key Segments & Insights

Nuclear Threats & Middle East Powder Keg

[00:00–10:53]

• Israeli Pressure on U.S. Presidents:

  • Every president since George H.W. Bush has been pressured by Israel to bomb Iran, arguing Iran is an existential threat.
  • Trump eventually relented, allegedly after Israel threatened an unprecedented move: using nuclear weapons if the U.S. refused to act.
    • "The reason, though, that Donald Trump decided to bomb Iran was that the Israelis said, if you don't bomb Iran... we’re going to use nuclear weapons."
      — John Kiriakou [01:02, 18:03]

• Aftermath & Precedent:

  • Previous U.S. reluctance was rooted in fear that bombing Iran would trigger WW3.
  • Bombing took place without immediate escalation—possibly indicating China/Russia’s unwillingness to intervene.

• Technological & Espionage Escalation:

  • Israel orchestrated targeted assassinations of Iranian military leadership, using innovative HUMINT—including recruiting desperate Afghan refugees inside Iran.
    • "Those are the guys that the Israelis recruited... you see this general drive by, make a note and transmit it back to us. Here’s $100."
      — John Kiriakou [11:14]

• Spycraft Details:

  • Israeli methods involve using non-Israeli operatives, sometimes even local minorities.
  • Novel Israeli tactics: When Iran banned generals from carrying phones (to prevent targeting), Israeli intel simply targeted their bodyguards’ phones instead.

Surveillance Technology: Palantir & Vault 7

[01:02, 181:09–185:44]

• Mass Surveillance Infrastructure:

  • Gigantic NSA data centers can store “every phone call, every text message, every email from every American for the next 500 years.”

  • The legal boundaries against domestic spying exist only on paper; metadata is openly bought, and agencies (including Palantir) push the bounds of what’s accessible.

    • “I worry about the violation of our civil liberties… It is against the law to spy on Americans. Period. And that’s practically all they do.”
      — John Kiriakou [01:02, 181:14]

• Palantir’s Government Ties:

  • Palantir, started with CIA venture capital (In-Q-Tel), is now a major government/intel contractor.
  • Its data aggregation and “stovepiping” practices mean that even other governments hiring Palantir risk inadvertent CIA exposure or conflict of interest.
    • “That’s a whole nother level… What do you think China’s doing?”
      — Julian Dorey [01:25]

• Vault 7 Revelations:

  • Kiriakou stunned by CIA-developed hacking tools: simulated foreign fingerprints in cyber-ops, remote vehicle control, turning smart TVs into stealth bugs.
    • “Vault 7 showed the CIA had hacking capability... leave traces of the hack... written in Cyrillic or Mandarin... the CIA can take over your car and drive you off a bridge.” — John Kiriakou [171:43–172:49]

Geopolitics: Israel/Palestine, Gaza, Saudi, Jordan

[07:57–54:16]

• Endless Complexity—State of Play:

  • “Ceasefires” never touch core issues; underlying problems (water, power, sovereignty) persist, guaranteeing future flashpoints.
  • Right-wing Israeli leadership (finance and security ministers with hate crime convictions) makes real peace currently impossible.
    • “There’s going to have to be an independent Palestine. There just has to be, because the current situation’s untenable.”
      — John Kiriakou [27:01]

• Regional Players' Dilemmas:

  • Egypt won’t open Rafah to avoid a Palestinian refugee surge; Jordan, with half its population Palestinian, refuses refugee influx to avoid Israeli ethnic cleansing.
  • Saudi Arabia floated as Gaza administrator—an old idea, historically blocked by Israel.

• Political Will:

  • Both Israeli and Palestinian leaderships are entrenched, and their people are used as proxies by neighboring regimes who feign concern for propaganda.
    • “The bottom line is... they [Arab regimes] don’t really care about the Palestinians so terribly much.”
      — John Kiriakou [39:33]

Espionage, Double Standards, and CIA/Mossad/MI6/Military Culture

[21:50–25:23; 38:54–40:10; 158:29–160:08]

• Israeli Nuclear Ambiguity:

  • Israel’s nuclear capability is an “open secret”—blatantly omitted from official discourse, even censored at the CIA’s Publications Review Board.

  • South African nukes possibly transferred to Israel post-apartheid; evidence suggests deep Israeli-South Africa defense cooperation.

• Allies Spy on Allies:

  • Israel, China, and France routinely cited as top espionage threats to the US.
  • Even the Five Eyes alliance is an exception; most intel-sharing relationships retain “compartmentalization and distrust.”
    • “You can add Cuba and France [to espionage top threats list].”
      — John Kiriakou [107:04]

• Mossad in Iran:

  • Israeli HUMINT leans on desperate populations and non-natives; disguise, deceit, and local recruitment are key.
  • Key espionage anecdotes: French intelligence “murderous,” top-tier, especially in Africa.

Civil Discourse, Media Manipulation, and Political Retribution

[54:16–66:58; 128:09–139:44]

• Weaponized Division in the U.S.:

  • Escalating political polarization provoked by media, bots, propaganda, and labeling every criticism as racist or antisemitic.
    • “A divided society is a compliant society… If you can divide people on really emotional issues… you can distract from everything else…”
      — Julian Dorey [55:27]

• Whistleblowing and Lawfare:

  • On cases like John Brennan, Kiriakou cautions against political prosecution as vengeance, warning of a dangerous precedent.
    • “If he has legitimately committed crimes, and I believe he has, he should be prosecuted. If they’re just scouring the law books… I would prefer not to see something like that happen.”
      — John Kiriakou [136:24]

Death Rituals, Cemeteries, Mafia, and The Human Condition

[76:41–97:47]

• Whimsical, Macabre Interlude:
  • Kiriakou is releasing books on historic cemeteries and mafia graveyards—a passion that leads to colorful tales about mob hits, bone boxes in Greece, and quirky historical characters.
  • Greek burial traditions: renting graves, exhuming bones, ossuaries, and death rituals—“none of these rules are actually based in religion.”
    • “I've got a book coming out called Remains of the Day... a definitive guide to Washington D.C.’s historic cemeteries… next one is Whispers in the Dirt, a guide to the Mafia graves of New York City.”
      — John Kiriakou [76:41]
    • “…They take the skeleton apart, wash it with red wine, the priest blesses it, and then they put it in a little bone box.”
      — John Kiriakou [93:07]

Nuclear War: Likelihood, Aftermath, and Human Nature

[99:06–119:47]

• The Grim Reality:

  • Kiriakou sees increased danger of nuclear weapon use (India/Pakistan, Israel/Iran) and acknowledges the world’s old safeguards have eroded.
  • Strong doubts about the world’s (or UN’s) ability to respond effectively to a nuclear strike: “What can the world do? A strongly worded statement?”

• Human Foibles & Future Risks:

  • Discussion touches on mutually assured destruction, societal breakdown, and the uncomfortable fact that political/military leaders might not be able to control cascading chaos in a crisis.
  • References to post-apocalyptic literature and media (Star Trek, Soylent Green) underscore uneasy parallels with current trajectories.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Israeli pressure for war:
  “The Israelis asked us to bomb Iran. Every president said no—our position was that that would be the start of World War Three... the reason Trump decided to bomb Iran was Israeli threat to use nuclear weapons.”
  — John Kiriakou [01:01–18:03]

• On Palantir & mass surveillance:
  “Now Palantir is a trillion dollar company... the metadata from your communications is for sale.”
  — John Kiriakou [181:14]

• On Israeli HUMINT in Iran:
  “They recruited thousands of these guys (Afghan refugees). Stand on this corner and every time you see this general drive by, make a note... Here’s $100.”
  — John Kiriakou [11:14]

• On Israeli nuclear ambiguity and censorship:
  “They only took out three words – ‘Israeli nuclear program’ – from all his books.”
  — John Kiriakou [22:05]

• On the Five Eyes/Allies espionage:
  “You can add Cuba and France to [top espionage threats].”
  — John Kiriakou [107:04]

• On CIA ethics and compartmentalization:
  “What they want you to do: be compartmentalized, so you’re not wondering what Fred’s doing down the hall… I’ve been shocked… Vault 7 was shocking.”
  — John Kiriakou [171:28]

• On French intelligence tradecraft:
  “I don’t work for you, and you’re not using tradecraft on me... You’re not recruiting me.”
  — John Kiriakou [108:51]

• On political retribution in prosecutions:
  “It is not a question of discovering the commission of a crime and looking for the man… it’s a question of picking the man and then searching the law books to pin an offense on him.”
  — Quoting Justice Robert Jackson [134:44]

• On hope and reform:
  “The founding fathers gave us a system that is perfect for resolving those problems... It always does.”
  — John Kiriakou [143:10]

Other Noteworthy Threads

• Humanizing global and political conflict: Juxtaposes the horrors of history with personal anecdotes—bread innovators, mafia graveyards, and Greek death rituals.
• Closed with optimism: Despite all, Kiriakou expresses faith in American resilience, civil institutions, and the ability to reset from even the worst political excesses—if Congress and political leadership can reclaim courage and independence.

Structure of Episode Flow (Approximate Timestamps)

• Nuclear War Risks & Israel/Iran [00:00–18:37]
• Spycraft (Mossad, CIA, Humint Tactics) [11:00–16:00, 21:50–25:23]
• Israeli Nuclear Arsenal & Global Nonproliferation [19:04–26:12]
• Palestine, Peace Process, Regional Actors [27:01–54:16]
• US Political Divides, Discourse, Propaganda [54:16–66:00]
• US Lawfare, Brennan, Political Retribution [128:09–140:58]
• Surveillance Tech, Palantir, Vault 7 [171:43–185:44]
• Death Rituals, Cemeteries, Book Projects [76:41–97:47]
• Global Wealth, Elites, Tech, Power Structures [191:42–195:53]
• Closing Reflections & Optimism [143:10–151:34]

Final Thoughts

Julian and John deliver a spellbinding, wide-ranging discussion—the kind only possible with a guest whose life traverses the shadows of espionage and public scrutiny. If you want an unvarnished look at the world behind the headlines—through the eyes of a CIA whistleblower—this episode is required listening.

“Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace.” — Julian Dorey [197:05]