Julian Dorey Podcast – Episode #376

“Disaster!” – Cartel-Tracked CEO on (Legal) Drug 13x More Potent than MORPHINE | Ryan Niddel

Date: January 23, 2026
Guest: Ryan Niddel (CEO, Diversified Botanics)

Overview

This episode dives deep into the evolving and highly controversial American kratom industry—examined through the eyes of Ryan Niddel, CEO of Diversified Botanics. Host Julian Dorey and Niddel dissect the wild west of supplement regulation, the explosion of synthetic and semi-synthetic kratom derivatives (notably “7-OH”, up to 30 times more potent than morphine), public health and addiction concerns, and the infiltration of organized crime and foreign actors into the market. The episode also explores entrepreneurship, government response, and the guest’s personal experiences facing intimidation from cartels.

Main Topics & Key Insights

1. Ryan Niddel’s Industry Story & Kratom 101

• Background: Niddel was drawn into Diversified Botanics (a kratom manufacturing business) after previously building a CBD company.
• What is Kratom?: A polarizing plant, a Southeast Asian tree whose leaves have stimulant effects when chewed and sedative, bonding qualities when consumed as tea. (06:00–08:00)
  • "Kratom is a tree that grows in Indonesia and Thailand... It takes four to five years to mature." (05:46)
  • First recorded use traced to 1880s Indonesian and Thai farmers (07:00).
• Effects & Usage: At low doses (e.g., tea or chewed leaf), energy and focus. At higher or differently prepared doses, relaxation or pain relief.
• Explosive Market Growth: Kratom industry jumped from "zero to $9 billion in 18 months." (141:00)

2. Regulatory and Legal Wild West

• Dietary Supplement Regulations: Kratom fell into supplement gray areas due to lack of US use before 1994 (DSHEA loophole), leading to minimal oversight. (08:46–14:00)
• Lack of Testing & GMP: Many players operate without meaningful quality control; supplements in general face weak enforcement.
  • "It's a free for all with an asterisk. You're supposed to manufacture in a GMP-compliant facility... but that's a should." (32:25)

Memorable Quote:

“You would think there would always be regulation on someone being able to sell that. I’m not even talking about Kratom or anything… but there’s not. It’s a fucking free-for-all.”
— Julian, (32:25)

• FDA/DEA Actions: 2016 salmonella scare led to a temporary Schedule 1 drug threat for kratom; industry panicked and destroyed inventory, but scheduling was reversed after pushback from veterans and first responders (21:16–25:00).
  • "The DEA started by saying, ‘It's going to be a Schedule 1, but by early 2017, the DEA pulled back and said there's not enough evidence to show this is really an opioid.’" (19:08)

3. The Rise of Dangerous Kratom Derivatives (7-OH)

• Kratom Alkaloids: Of 52, only a couple act on opioid receptors.
  • Mitragynine: Partial mu-opioid agonist, 1/10–1/20 as potent as morphine.
  • 7-Hydroxymitragynine (“7-OH”): Metabolite, potentially 13–30x more potent than morphine. Not naturally found in high concentrations, but can be chemically isolated/enhanced.
• Market Dynamics:
  • Extracts/tablets containing isolated 7-OH have exploded in popularity inside gas stations and smoke shops.
  • "Each tab started as 10mg, then 20, then 40 — now a pack of four tabs can be 200mg of 7-OH." (58:12)
• Addiction & Harm:
  • Strong anecdotal and early scientific evidence of rapid addiction and withdrawal resembling classical opioids.
  • "People were calling us asking how to get off the products... one guy went to outpatient rehab and had to be put on Suboxone." (66:02–67:25)
• Black Market/Foreign Actor Involvement:
  • CCP and Sinaloan cartel are reportedly involved in precursor shipment, money laundering, manufacturing (137:38–139:02).

Notable Quote:

“We could have had a chance to make a fuck-ton of money jumping in on this 7-OH thing... and we chose not to. Our business has been cut in half this year over last year. That’s okay. We’re not for sale. My morals aren’t for sale in this.” — Ryan Niddel, (74:09)

4. Addiction, Harm Reduction & the Public Health Dilemma

• Abuse Potential:

  • Hosts and guest both acknowledge danger and rapid dependency of synthetic kratom derivatives.
  • "There’s no question it’s addictive... I think it should be like a cigarette-type warning.” (110:00–111:34)

• Policy Failure & Pendulum Swing:

  • US failures with prohibition and full deregulation compared; pendulum of regulation swings between extremes.
  • “If you legalize everything… you’re going to have deaths; you’re going to have tragedies and eventually a backlash.” — Julian (117:06–118:44)

• Guest’s Policy Ideal:

  • Full-spectrum (natural) kratom strictly 18+ or 21+; potent derivatives like 7-OH require extra safeguards, possibly a pharmacy model or prescription/telemedicine linkage (156:33–159:03).

5. Technology, Transparency & Industry Ethics

• Transparency Initiatives:
  • Diversified Botanics implements 24/7 live video production feeds, QR-code batch tracking, and blockchain for supply validation.
  • "Why don’t we start posting 24/7, 365 live video feeds... if you don’t do stuff wrong, what do you have to hide?" (87:49–88:15)
• Call for Industry Reform:
  • Advocates for supplement regulation overhaul, standard serving sizes, blockchain tracking, enforcement for contaminants, and mandatory harm reduction programs.
  • "This is what the supplement industry needs." (78:41)

6. Crime, Cartels, and Personal Safety

• Organized Crime Infiltration:
  • Sinaloan cartel, Chinese Communist Party, and Russian mafia all have documented hooks in the kratom (and derivatives) supply chain.
  • Niddel reports: surveillance, direct threats/warnings (e.g., strangers referencing private DC travel plans), requiring a personal security team. (132:14–144:00)
• Law Enforcement Awareness:
  • FBI and DEA aware, but investigations are slow due to limited resources and higher priorities.
  • “They say, protect yourself.” (139:00)
• Speculation on Motives:
  • Destabilization of American society and creation of a hyper-addictive, legal customer base.

Memorable Anecdote:

“I see an individual walking by and he says, ‘Have fun in DC tomorrow. I don’t think you should go now.’ No one knows I’m going to DC…” (132:36–143:53)

Notable Quotes and Moments

• On the Regulatory System:

  “The FDA is at an all-time low from a staffing standpoint… So you look at the little tiny department that supplements—call it 20 people… who have to inspect every facility.” (129:37–130:06)

• On Industry Corruption:

  “The CCP is sending solvents and extracts to specific people in the US… the Sinaloan cartel is involved, Russian Bratva, too. Addresses, wire receipts—it’s all real.” (137:38–139:49)

• On Free Market Ethics:

  “I believe in free market capitalism… If people aren’t dying, should we ban it, or just control where it’s sold? Maybe it needs its own regulatory category, like cannabis or psilocybin.” (75:04–75:58)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Kratom 101, Traditional Use, Market Explosion ............ (06:00–08:00), (141:00)
• Regulatory Gaps, FDA/DEA Response ............................. (08:46–14:00), (19:08), (21:16–25:00)
• Salmonella, Spice, and Synthetic Supplement History ...(11:46–16:04)
• Rise of 7-OH, Differences with Full-Spectrum Kratom ..... (50:40–67:25)
• Case study: customer forced into rehab by 7-OH ............. (66:02–68:57)
• Kratom, FDA, and Supplement System Failure ................ (26:09–34:01)
• Blockchain, Tech for Transparency ................................... (87:49–100:03)
• Cartel Threats and Surveillance ........................................... (132:14–144:00)
• Organized Crime/Evidence ................................................. (137:38–139:49)
• Philosophy on Regulation & Harm Reduction ................... (156:33–160:16)
• Business Ethics: Declining 7-OH, Commitment to Transparency ...(74:09), (162:51–168:29)

Takeaways for Listeners New to Kratom & the Crisis

• The Kratom industry is awash in both legitimate and highly dangerous actors/products.
• Natural kratom in measured doses occupies a gray area between coffee and opioids in effects—but derivatives like “7-OH” act like hard opiates and are rapidly physically addictive.
• Supplement regulation in America is almost feckless; there are very few controls on what becomes a “legal” dietary product.
• Organized crime and foreign entities have seized on the boom, seeking to launder money, move precursors, and exploit consumers.
• Industry insiders like Niddel (and whistleblowers like Steve Robinson) are pushing for radical transparency and reform—but face threats, pushback, and an overwhelmed regulatory system.
• The debate mirrors larger issues of legalization, market incentives, consumer protection, and the difficulty of threading the needle between prohibition and chaos.

Final Thoughts

Ryan Niddel and Julian Dorey’s conversation is a whirlwind tour of the shadowy, modern supplement market: a dizzying blend of entrepreneurship, pharmaceutical chemistry, addiction, criminal intrigue, regulatory dysfunction, and moral philosophy. This episode will leave you stunned by the scale—and speed—of the crisis, and by how fragile America’s safeguards are in the face of both creative business and cartel-level malice.

Note: Ad segments, intros, and outros were omitted from this summary.