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Julian Dorey Podcast
#398 - “He KNEW!” - Epstein Survivor: Hollywood Trafficking, NYC Mansion & Les Wexner | Lisa Phillips
02:02:51
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- [00:02]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [00:03]
Interviewer/Podcaster
So you. Four months later, after all this, this was the one where you. It got put on the schedule that you were going to meet with him. Okay. And you were already at Ford at this point.
- [00:13]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, no, it was a Ford model.
- [00:15]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Now you're at Ford. So he had made that call. So you. You see his name on the schedule. You know, you're like, well, I guess I gotta go. What's your. What's your initial reaction, though? Like, oh.
- [00:28]
Lisa Phillips
Or like, well, I just remember calling my agent to say, like, I didn't want to go.
- [00:33]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And what did you say?
- [00:35]
Lisa Phillips
Well, I think she made a call to make to probably to Katie Forward just to see. But I remember her saying, oh, I have to go. You know, he has connections of Victoria's Secret and things like that. So I think you need to go. And remember, at the time, I didn't know how close the agency owner was to Epstein. I had no idea they were sending each other girls. I just thought, well, that's funny. Why would I have to go see that guy? Right? But I went and I went to that Upper east side mansion, knocked on that big door and walked right in, and.
- [01:07]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And there wasn't like a moment where you're like, I'm really about to do this. Or were you just kind of like, they told me, I have to do this. I'm going to do this.
- [01:17]
Lisa Phillips
Of course there was that thought, you know, I know what happened on the island. So I was nervous about it, but I just thought, oh, well, he helped me to get into the agency. They said he was great, you know, and she said, oh, I love Jeffrey. You know, he's a good guy and all that stuff. So I thought, okay, he's a good guy now. So now in my head, he did something for me. He's a good guy. And so I went and met with him, and I had a really, really great conversation with him for about an hour. I talked to him about all sorts of things and, you know, laughed and, like, you know, talked about my real goals and ambitions again and gave me.
- [01:52]
Interviewer/Podcaster
He answered the door.
- [01:53]
Lisa Phillips
No, no, no.
- [01:54]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Someone else answers.
- [01:55]
Lisa Phillips
No, like the. The butler. The butler answered the door.
- [01:59]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Juan Alessi.
- [02:01]
Lisa Phillips
Probably was Juan.
- [02:02]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Okay?
- [02:03]
Lisa Phillips
It probably was Juan. If not, I can't remember who answered the door the first time. It wasn't. It was probably the. One of the maids. Okay. But they let you in, and they seat you in the room until you're ready to go up the stairs into his office.
- [02:13]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Okay. So. So they take you up, escort you to the office, and that's where you have this hour long conversation. What the second you walked in there before you have this good conversation that I do want to hear more about. Like you see him for the first time. What's the feeling like?
- [02:33]
Lisa Phillips
Deep breath. He made me feel really comfortable right off the bat. So I felt comfortable with him. I think again like the initial meeting just had a really good conversation with him just about life again, goals, you know, thanked him for introducing me to Katie and becoming a Ford model. And he asked a lot of questions about that and you know, what kind of events and things I was going did. I know a lot of models and he definitely wanted to know like, you know, how much I networked and how many people I knew and just how like deep I was in the malling business and knew people, which I knew a lot of people then. And so I think that was kind of exciting for him that I knew a lot of other young girls and we just had like a really good, I just remember a really good conversation and he was on the phone with a really important person and so he made it a point to let me know like who he was on the phone with. I could hear him talking and ain't
- [03:41]
Interviewer/Podcaster
not gonna say who that was.
- [03:42]
Lisa Phillips
Well, he was like a billionaire at the time and I knew who he was. He recently came out in the files. Oh, you know, so I heard him talking to him.
- [03:53]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Hey guys, three quick things. Number one, if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe. It's a huge, huge help. Number two, if you'd like to join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes, you can join via the link in my description or in the PIN comment below. And number three, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make content from the show and make money, you can join via the Discord link in my description below.
- [04:16]
Lisa Phillips
And then he told me like a little secret about him and so he was trying to make me feel like really comfortable. You know, it's kind of like I was in like one of him, one of his people or he was really good. So it was just a really good conversation. So I thought, I thought at the time that that was going to be it. I thought that was it. So I kind of like got you
- [04:41]
Interviewer/Podcaster
thought you'd never see him again after that?
- [04:42]
Lisa Phillips
Well, I don't know. I just thought that was it. I thought, well that was great. Thank you for everything you did for me. Wonderful. Like, just wanted to get out of there and then I Just kind of like got my bag and stuff already and I try to like get out of there. And he just was like, no, where are you going?
- [04:59]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And then does it clock back like, oh, this is now going to be.
- [05:04]
Lisa Phillips
He was like, let's do massage.
- [05:07]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Just like that. What goes through your head when he says that?
- [05:12]
Lisa Phillips
Didn't really have time to think because he was right out the door to the massage room. So there goes the next massage. So that's when I had the next massage, which was exactly like the first one without the girl.
- [05:36]
Interviewer/Podcaster
I, I can't really. This is one of the situations where you want to try to like put yourself in the shoes of someone like that. And I guess I'm happy to say I can't. But like, I wonder if just the fact that you walk through the door, considering it was four months later, he had already abused you. Now he had, you had a job because of him. He was put on the schedule and you walked on your own volition to his place. He was like, gotcha. Like I, I can't think of another way to. Is that how you describe it?
- [06:18]
Lisa Phillips
The only thing that I know is the fact that I saw someone really important. He was not allowed to let me out of that orbit. I was not allowed to be free without me thinking he was a good guy, that I would never turn on him or talk about him, you know. So I just feel like there was a reason why he keeps you in that orbit. And so the massage, whether he was getting off on me or not, I think has to be done because that's the way of keeping you silent again. Cuz I don't understand why he wouldn't just let me leave. Like why would he have to? I mean, we know now that he abused that exact way. I'm explaining to you six to eight times a day with, with different girls. Six to eight times a day? Yeah. He was jacking off two girls six to eight times a day. And that's what he, that's what he liked. So. I don't really know why he, he wanted to do those things to me. I really don't know why. He didn't always do it, but that time he definitely did. So
- [07:31]
Interviewer/Podcaster
same thing when it was over, just kind of like, we're done.
- [07:35]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. Craft your stuff and leave.
- [07:42]
Interviewer/Podcaster
When you walk out of there. Is it the same kind of, I don't know, frozen type feeling you had the first time, like just literally right over again? Or is there anything different this time?
- [07:53]
Lisa Phillips
Well, it's just confusing because it's an actual real massage. Right. It's not like, let me just pull this girl in here and just rape her, you know? It's like an actual massage. Like, he's really teaching you how to do a darn massage. Like, he really needs a massage six, eight times a day. And then he has to. Like, it's his thing, you know?
- [08:12]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah, but I mean, it's. That's just like. It's something entirely different, though. Like, it may start that way. Okay. But then he's turning that into something that's not a massage. It's. It's pure rape. But you're not. There's something in your head where you're kind of, like, normalizing the fact. Well, it is a musa.
- [08:36]
Lisa Phillips
No, I definitely know it was a violation of my body, but just. I can't even answer to you. Why didn't. I couldn't feel like I could leave or scream or do anything, you know? I just was just hoping I'd never have to see him again. That's always what I was hoping. I would leave and never have to see him again. And it's crazy, too, because, you know, as a podcaster, too, like yourself, I've interviewed a lot of Larry Nassar survivors, and, my God, their abuse is the exact same thing. Jewish guy who treats them like, ooh, you know, this is like our little secret, you know? You know, I'm helping you out. You know, here's little snacks, you know, like, trying to get on their good side while he lays them on a table and abuses them the same way. He's a digital abuser. He never had sex with them. He uses fingers and tools in their body, you know, and they were. They were just as confused as two. And the Epstein survivors say, oh, is he doing these creepy massages to you? And the Larry Nassar gymnasts are like, is he. Is he. Is he. Is he doing the same medical procedure to you, too? You know, that they can tell is creepy and not right, too. But everyone knows it's creepy. Everyone knows it's not right. Everyone knows he's violating you, but nobody says, like, this is an assault. This is abuse. Nobody can even say those words. I never did. They never did, you know, and it's like. It's the exact same type of abuse they get away with because they get off on that. They have control over you, but nobody knows how to identify it. And it's. It comes with massive confusion.
- [10:15]
Interviewer/Podcaster
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- [10:30]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, so when I leave, I'm like, confused almost. The guy talked to me for an hour. He's like a mentor. He shared little secrets to me about so and so. Like, he got me with an agency. Like, I. I like all these things. And then I'm like, well, maybe, maybe it's not so bad, you know, and. And I would just justify it. Like, well, maybe that's just what we have to go through as women, you know? You know that we don't have autonomy, we don't have. We don't have, like, anything over our body to say, like, no, leave me alone. Get off me. It's like almost really, really difficult to say something like that when you're in
- [11:07]
Interviewer/Podcaster
those situations, but you're pretty quickly, like, I don't want to say, not rationalizing, but when you're trying to, like, understand what's going on, you're. That's a thought that's coming in where you're like, well, I guess I just don't have control.
- [11:21]
Lisa Phillips
Exactly. Yeah. I think most of the time you feel like when you're groomed, you don't have control. I feel like if you just drag me off the street, yeah, I think that would fight back and things. But I think when after you're groomed for an hour and then it's a massage and then it's the salt, then it's like this whole thing of like, wait a second, what just happened? Yeah, yeah. And that's his M.O. that's how he abused, you know, the majority of these girls.
- [11:49]
Interviewer/Podcaster
You know, one of the things we don't know a ton about to this point and maybe some people out there, if, if you've unearthed it, you can share evidence in, in the comments. I'd love to review it, but we don't know a hell of a lot about Jeffrey Epstein's childhood. We know he grew up in Coney Island. He had two parents and only had a brother, but we don't know of any, like, life experiences he had and stuff like that. So if I assumed for a second that he was not someone who himself was abused a bunch, because there are prolific abusers out there who weren't abused. They just get off on this kind of thing and do it. Where do you think that ability to psychologically manipulate people like that comes from?
- [12:40]
Lisa Phillips
It's a really good question. I would. I would think he would have had to have learned it from someone. I don't know if it's a family member, you know, or something. You watch on tv. I don't, I just don't know. I mean it takes years to get to that stage. I don't think it just happens overnight, you know, but probably, you know, a little bit here, a little bit there. Seeing how you can get over people, how easy it is to manipulate and then, you know, just working your way up the ladder, you can manipulate someone at, you know, the high school, then you can manipulate someone in finance, then you can manipulate someone in government. You can manipulate, you know, young girls are pretty easy. So he used to always say like 25, 26, you know, that's when the brains developed. So he never went over 20, 25, 26, you know. Oh, he would say, oh yeah, like yeah, yeah, yeah. Girl's brain develops at 25, 26. They would never ever even. Because you can't have any. It's very, very difficult to manipulate a woman when she's hit 26 years old. They're just, you know, have a different way of thinking and a worldly view and it's harder unless you had pre
- [13:58]
Interviewer/Podcaster
existing manipulation with them.
- [14:00]
Lisa Phillips
I mean you can manipulate anyone at any age. You'd be 50, 60 and we see that happen all the time. I understand, but, but it's just easier when you're younger, obviously because it's, you know, you look up to adults, you
- [14:11]
Interviewer/Podcaster
want to believe, you want to believe
- [14:12]
Lisa Phillips
them and you trust them. And, and if you're making an assault on you look like it's nothing, you know, then sometimes it just becomes like, oh, it's nothing.
- [14:25]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And in that one hour conversation, he really did make you feel like, oh, he's like kind of a mentor and I'm a special and you were special. What, what about. Not even necessarily something specific with what he said, but what about how he was talking with you made you feel special?
- [14:45]
Lisa Phillips
Well, the fact that I was even able to become a Ford model made me feel very special. That was very, it was super not easy to become a Ford model. You know, I'd worked so hard, many, many years to even get to that stage. And he's no idiot. He's not sending off some girl at random girls to Ford Modeling Agency. You have to actually be able to get signed to that agency. It's special enough to sit in front of him for that hour, you know, and get the best advice in the world. Basically he advises, you know, billionaires and the tops of government. And I'm getting the best advice, you know, really, really good advice I still use to this day.
- [15:26]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Like what?
- [15:27]
Lisa Phillips
Just business, you know, I was able to form and build businesses and be successful in everything that I wanted to do. Probably from a lot of things that he taught me. I mean, he sat there and taught me things. It wasn't just, like, surface conversation.
- [15:43]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Do you have a. Not to put you on the spot, but do you have, like, a specific example, maybe with. With. As it relates to running a business or something like that that he taught you?
- [15:54]
Lisa Phillips
Well, I guess I could. But I'll tell you something that he used to say to me with men. He used to. Because he used to send me on auditions, and when I would come back from the audition, I would disappoint him, like, if I didn't do anything with the director or I didn't get the part. And he would say, oh, that's just the way Hollywood works. You have to just, you know, let the guy think you're going to sleep with him. You don't have to actually sleep with him, but just, you know, you know, you know, flirt with him a little bit, put your hand on your. On his knee, you know, be a little bit, like, aggressive. But don't have to go there because they can't sleep with everybody. You know what I mean? So he would say, oh, you up? Because, like, a lot of times he would send me on these auditions, and he'd want to know every little thing, every little thing that happened or was said, you know, because he wanted to have these things on people and how they operated and how they were. Were they straight up, like, invite you to dinner and then slowly assault you, or do they straight off assault you? Like, he wanted to know everything. So he would try to tell you how to be with a man, but also to get ahead, like, in your career and in business and things. So also he would tell me about businesses that were coming up that women could. Whatever you were interested in. He would tell you, you know, how to manipulate those situations to get your career. Like, I had friends that were in the art world and friends that were wanting to be, like, TV hosts and things like that. And he definitely showed them how to, like, manipulate it so they could become successful. That's why there's many women today who are extremely successful who are new Epstein when they were younger.
- [17:34]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Does it feel weird that a guy so evil. I don't even really know how to say this, but, like, so evil, just as, like, an aside to all the evil he did would give people like you something that you might actually still use to this day.
- [17:56]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, well, I mean, he was evil. The people around him were Very evil.
- [18:02]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah.
- [18:03]
Lisa Phillips
As you can see in the files, you know, there was a lot of evil going on. I'm not sure if he was giving me evil advice. I think it was just like business advice, you know, I don't know. I see it as just business advice. I don't think there was anything that was nefarious for me to, like, swindle
- [18:22]
Interviewer/Podcaster
my way through, but that's what I was saying. Yeah, I should have said that more clearly. What I'm saying is he's an evil guy. He does all what this evil stuff, and that's who he is. And then just as a part of his manipulation tactics on the periphery, he might happen to throw you a bone of a good piece of business advice.
- [18:39]
Lisa Phillips
He told me if you go for any job, the fact that you're a Ford model, you'll get called in every time. So you make your resume put at the top that you were a for model. He said every single job that you go for with your resume, you'll get called in.
- [18:53]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Right.
- [18:54]
Lisa Phillips
And it's so funny that it's so funny now because I'll look at resumes from people that I know knew him. I'll look at their resumes that have come up in the files. It says they were a Ford model
- [19:04]
Interviewer/Podcaster
right at the top.
- [19:06]
Lisa Phillips
So he was giving this advice out, you know, so just little things like that, you know, that I picked up on, you know, that you would listen to from any mentor.
- [19:17]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Right.
- [19:18]
Lisa Phillips
You know, does it have you a mentor that's abusing you? A mentor of mentor, you know, is giving you life advice. Because he's not going to speak on anything but real things, you know? Yeah. I don't know if I'm, like, proud of any of that, but, I mean, I'm no stupid girl. If I'm gonna sit there for an hour with somebody, I'm gonna get, like, the best information. Sure. Because that was the part of making me feel comfortable enough for an hour later to do what he wants to do.
- [19:44]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And also the point you make about putting the billionaire on speaker. Someone you would know and like, showing you, hey, I can even tell you about this guy. You can listen in on him. What do you think I can tell? It's like, psychologically, what do you think I can tell about you to other people?
- [20:01]
Lisa Phillips
And you know what's so crazy, too? In the files, some of the sneak secrets that he told me, I. I could see. It's like validation.
- [20:07]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yes.
- [20:07]
Lisa Phillips
In the files, like, okay, wow, that was true. And that was true. I don't believe there was anything that man said to me that wasn't true.
- [20:15]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Anything.
- [20:16]
Lisa Phillips
No, I really don't believe he was bullshitting on anything. I think almost everything. I think everything he said was true. Yeah. I don't really see why he had a lie. I mean, the manipulation, but the manipulation wasn't in the lies. And the manipulation was just like he always came through on what he said he would do for you. I have girlfriends that went through four years of university through him, you know, got their jobs through him, things like that.
- [20:42]
Interviewer/Podcaster
So he would keep his promises on stuff like that.
- [20:46]
Lisa Phillips
Because he can.
- [20:46]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Because he can.
- [20:47]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. He's not like, let's take. Let's take like the. The mediocre pedophiles and predators out there. They. They give you false, right. And they get you in and then they can't keep you much longer because they're always false promises because they have no leverage and no power. This man had all the power in the world, you know, to get what he wanted. That's why he could get these beautiful young women. Right. You know, and make all these things happen for them. And then, you know, the leverage of the underage girls in Florida, I mean, what was their leverage? They're in high school, so it's just money, you know, for their family. 2 or $300 for their family goes a really long way.
- [21:22]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And he would go after poor girls around there too.
- [21:25]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. Who had parents that were in jail or drug addicted parents. I know a lot of them, you know, and they have like major trauma from all this horrific trauma.
- [21:36]
Interviewer/Podcaster
No, I mean, I can't even.
- [21:40]
Lisa Phillips
I think the trauma comes worse for most girls when it had to do with Ghis. Because it was a woman.
- [21:47]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Oh, cuz it was just. Cuz it was a woman.
- [21:48]
Lisa Phillips
Well, because kind of you can expect, you know, someone like Jeffrey Epstein to abuse you. You're. It's older. What else does he want you around for? But the older woman, like, what is she doing? Why is she pulling in young girls? Why are you doing that to young girls? Not many women do that. You kind of have to be a monster to go.
- [22:08]
Interviewer/Podcaster
She's a monster.
- [22:09]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. To go looking for hundreds of girls and then, you know, giving it to him. Giving. Giving you over to him and then also participating, you know.
- [22:18]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yes.
- [22:19]
Lisa Phillips
There's a big difference, as I said, than a Sarah Kellen, in my opinion, as someone who's probably in her 20s, who was abused, you know, who turns and maybe made wrong choices. Of course she made wrong choices. But Glenn is on a whole different level.
- [22:34]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yes.
- [22:36]
Lisa Phillips
You know.
- [22:38]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah. And it's, you know, it's also all the people around, though, because it's a similar type of psychological question to ask. Like what I asked with Sarah. But did you ever hear the two podcast series that Tara Palmeri did back in 2020? One was like, the Maxwells. The other one was Epstein. So Virginia went around with her.
- [22:59]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [22:59]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And in one of the podcast series, it's literally like a documentary just recorded. But they go to, usually the gated communities of different people who were associated with Jeffrey Epstein and say, hey, it's Virginia. Robert Shuffrey with. Remember me? And I'm with this reporter, Tyra Plumer. Can we come in? And a lot of people wouldn't let them in.
- [23:20]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [23:20]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Like, the chef, Adam Perry Lang was like, oh, I remember you, Virginia, through an emissary, but I can't meet with you. The guy Juan Alessi let them in.
- [23:30]
Lisa Phillips
The driver, the.
- [23:32]
Interviewer/Podcaster
I guess he was like the housekeeper. I, I, it's been a while. People go, I actually do need to go listen to that podcast again, because I cited a lot, so I will do that after this. But he not only let them in, he agreed to let Tara record it. And I always say it's one of the most difficult things to listen to from, like, a human perspective, because you feel a million emotions for this guy. You feel anger that he didn't say anything. You feel empathy for the fact that he was an immigrant who signed this crazy NDA with these powerful people and then felt pressured to not say anything.
- [24:13]
Lisa Phillips
You.
- [24:14]
Interviewer/Podcaster
You feel weird that he's sitting with Virginia, who he clearly not only remembered and knew, but liked a lot and viewed her as a real person. And yet you're angry at him because he turned a blind eye to this stuff. I mean, there's so much going on.
- [24:32]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, but what power did he have to say anything back then?
- [24:35]
Interviewer/Podcaster
That's my question.
- [24:36]
Lisa Phillips
It's, like, wound up dead, or like, nobody would have believed him.
- [24:39]
Interviewer/Podcaster
That's what I wanted to ask.
- [24:40]
Lisa Phillips
Nobody. Nobody listened to, to anyone back then.
- [24:43]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah. So when you look at people like that, the gardeners, the housekeepers, the people that were around him, working on, like, the staff, you kind of look at it, like, and correct me if I'm wrong here, what were they gonna do?
- [24:58]
Lisa Phillips
What could they do? I feel bad for them because I'm sure they have a lot of guilt and shame about it. I'm sure they do.
- [25:04]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yes.
- [25:04]
Lisa Phillips
I'm sure they are seeing, you know, eight girls a day at a house, young girls coming in and out the doors. I think they're. They're not stupid to know what's going on. They have to clean up, like, dildos and things out of his room. They know what's going on. Yeah, but they have no power to say anything. You know, I mean, obviously, we wish they would have. I wish there were some FBI files that says they made a report or something, but it wouldn't have done anything. They had reports from hundreds of girls.
- [25:35]
Interviewer/Podcaster
You see this latest video of the other Butler that they interviewed in 09? I still have to look at this all the way, but, like, it's on tape. And he was telling them, like, what was going on. I think they arrested him recently.
- [25:51]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [25:51]
Interviewer/Podcaster
No, it's from the files, Steve. Can we pull it up on Twitter? Epstein Butler. I want to make sure I get it right. This was, like, just coming out.
- [25:57]
Lisa Phillips
Oh, that was coming out in the files.
- [25:59]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah.
- [25:59]
Lisa Phillips
Right. Okay, good.
- [26:00]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yes. And the FBI. It's on. It's in, like, a gray tape, if we can find. Yep, that's it. Can we pull this up on the screen and see what. What's. What? So this is. This is a formerly secret video of Jeffrey Epstein's butler trying to sell a copy of Epstein's little black book. So I guess it was like.
- [26:19]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. Then he got in trouble for it. Why is he doing time?
- [26:23]
Interviewer/Podcaster
You know, I'm not laughing because it's funny. I'm laughing.
- [26:27]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, no, I saw. I saw this one. And then he gets in trouble for it.
- [26:32]
Interviewer/Podcaster
That's insane.
- [26:35]
Lisa Phillips
Is this. I haven't had the words for it. That he goes to jail for that and not the actual people that were doing things. Yeah.
- [26:45]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Well, you know the famous line from the 08 case. Alex Acosta, who later became Labor Secretary, he. I was told he belongs to Intelligence.
- [26:57]
Lisa Phillips
He was told that Jeffrey belongs to Intelligence. Yeah. Yeah, that's what he was told. So. And that means hands off. Yeah.
- [27:07]
Interviewer/Podcaster
That would explain the 80 cameras in every room.
- [27:09]
Lisa Phillips
But just because you belong to intelligence doesn't mean you have the right to, like, abuse all these girls.
- [27:13]
Interviewer/Podcaster
It's insane.
- [27:14]
Lisa Phillips
It's like. Yeah, it's like this godlike thing. I can do whatever I want to do because, you know, I have immunity and nothing's ever going to happen to me, you know?
- [27:22]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah, like, that's the thing. That guy Alex Acosta has daughters. I believe we can check that.
- [27:26]
Lisa Phillips
So many of them have daughters.
- [27:27]
Interviewer/Podcaster
I know, exactly. But, like.
- [27:30]
Lisa Phillips
But I think that so many of their hands are tied. They can't even do anything. That's the problem.
- [27:34]
Interviewer/Podcaster
He's running that whole case, though. It's like. I don't know.
- [27:40]
Lisa Phillips
I don't know either. I think there's just some crazy amount of evidence out there.
- [27:46]
Interviewer/Podcaster
So, Lisa, real quick, I just have to go to the bathroom. Yeah, Come right back.
- [27:51]
Lisa Phillips
Okay.
- [27:51]
Interviewer/Podcaster
All right. We'll be right back. All right, we're back. So. God, I have so many questions here, but I. We did get off from the second half of, like, after you left the second time from. From his place and you were going back, like, where did you go back to that day? You said you had a full day scheduled out for you. Did you go back to the agency right away or do you not remember?
- [28:17]
Lisa Phillips
I don't know.
- [28:20]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Similar. Kind of, like, have to compartmentalize it, though.
- [28:24]
Lisa Phillips
Again, I don't have no idea. I mean, I've not even thought about where I went after that.
- [28:31]
Interviewer/Podcaster
When was the next time you saw him?
- [28:38]
Lisa Phillips
So during those years, like, I would travel a lot for work, so I always had the excuse of, like, not being available as much, and I tried to avoid him as much as I could. So there was. There was a few times that I saw him over the next couple years, and it was pretty much the exact same thing I described in the second scenario, the second time I went there.
- [29:04]
Interviewer/Podcaster
So he'd talk to you for a while somehow make you feel good again.
- [29:08]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. And then the massage, it didn't happen every time, but it happened most of the time. And then from there, it was mostly just. I don't think his thing was to have me do these massages. I think it was more so I have an audition, and he would send me on a plane to go to Los Angeles for an audition. And that person, a big director, is in the files. So. And then I found out many years later that other girls were sent to that same director. So it was things like that. And then there was an episode where he told me to go to. It was after a movie premiere. And I went to, like, a Hollywood after party after premiere party. And the owner of the Ford Mauling Agency was also there with some girls. And then there was this, like, celebrity that was, like, all over me. And I, you know, kept saying, like, get away from me. He was way, way, way older than me and, like, gross or coked out or whatever. And I was just like, leave me alone. And I was complaining to my bookers and stuff from the Ford Agency, you know, that this guy was bothering me. And then I just. We left, you know, that restaurant and we went to a Couple other parties. And then I found myself with, you know, Katie Ford and some other models back at this actor's house, at a suite at his hotel on the Upper east side. And I was in there for a few minutes and then they left. I was in the bathroom and I was there, left alone. And then from there I was assaulted by that big. That celebrity, very well known celebrity in that room. So at that time I just thought, well, like dumb luck, you know, on my part that it ended up that way. But I ended up finding out years later through like, now we're 2020 and I'm deposed for cases and I'm telling stories of what happened to me, and my attorneys are like, oh, you've been trafficked. And then they're like, who did what? You know, and then all this stuff started coming out. And I found out during that time that. That Katie Ford had been in on things with Epstein and that she. Epstein had sent me to her, but she was sending girls to him. And so I just started getting really upset about it because now here I am thinking I worked my way, you know, in becoming a Ford model. And now to find out, you know, there was some nefarious, you know, ways of me becoming a model had to do with this. These agency owners and then they were like in cahoots with, like, bringing these young girls to parties around these older men and kind of like pushing you off to these men while you just think you're special and just hanging out with these people, you know. And there was a much darker reason why they were bringing you around to these places. And so that was really. That was really hard for me to, like, comprehend and know that that's what was really going on.
- [32:20]
Interviewer/Podcaster
In those early years when you're a Ford model and this stuff is intermittently happening. You know, you had said you'd always wanted to be a model and everything like that. Were you able to ever have fun doing your job too, or was the joy taken away?
- [32:36]
Lisa Phillips
No, I did, of course. Like, I loved. I mean, we would travel and shoots to exotic locations, different countries. You know, I really enjoyed the actual job of modeling. I mean, it's pretty strenuous. I wake up really early. You have to take really good care of your. Your skin and your body. I mean, it was around really creative people. You know, I love the artistic expression of it. But, you know, there was all sorts of things going on where you were constantly around these creepy men who, you know, predatory men. And also finding out that a lot of the women were involved never really Sat right with me. It never does. When these older women are putting you, you know, around these older men, basically. It's basically trafficking you to these men without. Without you even knowing it.
- [33:24]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Absolutely.
- [33:24]
Lisa Phillips
And I feel bad for a lot of these girls who are just trying to live out their dreams, you know, like I was. And put in these situations where they never really should have been in. So that episode was really weird. I didn't find out what was really going on with that until just two years ago. There was also agents who, you know, weird things were going on. So these model agencies not only were sending girls to Epstein, they were also bringing you to these parties around other older men. And they were also in with a lot of politicians and like senders and things like that.
- [34:06]
Interviewer/Podcaster
So you would see those people there.
- [34:08]
Lisa Phillips
So I'll tell you about this. This. I don't think I've ever brought this up, had time to really tell this story. But so now I'm a Ford model, you know, feeling good, you know, living the life, having a great career. I would go out often with Katie Ford and her husband, Andre Balas. Now Andre was very handsome and charming. And the girls didn't really mind him being around. Cause he just, you know, he was very good looking. But it was always this thing of like, it's kind of weird, like she's with this guy, you know. And then we would start seeing him around a lot with. Whenever she wasn't around, there would be. Uma was around, you know, Uma Thurman, the actress, I think he later married. So there was these things that were just right in your face that didn't really make sense. Why these adults who were married were right having their mistress or whoever right in front of you. There was just weird things like that. So one day I'm at the agency and one of my bookers and Katie was there and some of the other agents were there. And we're like, you know, we had a guy in the other day who was like checking out comp cards and was like, ooh, who's Lisa Phillips? Like, she's really cute. And they were like, he's a really important person. And you know, we think you should go on a blind date with him. And so I was just like, are you serious? Like, I've never gone on a blind date. And they were like, yeah, you know, you should go out with this guy. And I was just like, okay, whatever. And so, you know, they organize this blind date for me. And so I remember being with my girlfriends by this time. I lived in the Upper east side. And I had got ready for this date, and they had told me to wear, like, a really nice dress because we were going to a really nice dinner party. And so they had their hand in all of this for the date. And so I didn't think anything of it because I just thought I was gonna be some young, hot guy. It'd be fun, you know? So, like, it's so stupid back then, you know? Like, who. Who thinks about this kind of stuff? And so you just trust your agency? And so I get all ready. I'm in this, like, pretty dress, and then I go running out. I remember it was a Range Rover, and I go to open the door, and I'm like, are we picking up your grandson? And he's like, no. I'm like, your son? And he's like, no. And I'm like, I'm going out with you. And he was like, yeah. Like, get in. It'll be fine. Just get in. You know? I know. And he names the bookers and stuff like that. I'm like, are you serious? Like, I just couldn't believe it because the guy looks so old. Like. Like a grant. My grandfather, white hair, he was old. And I was just like. I didn't understand it. So I get in the car, you know, and he ends up being actually really nice. He's a state senator.
- [36:51]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Oh, they always are.
- [36:52]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, he's a senator. So I'm just like, okay. This man takes me around the corner, Upper east side, near Madison, and 70 something, around the corner from Epstein's house. Go into this house, up into an elevator, into this. This beautiful dining area and where he seats me down for dinner. And I'm sitting next to Al Gore and Tippi, and I'm just like, this is your. This is the year 2000. 2001. And I'm just like, huh? And I remember, like, you know, I'm pretty cultured and whatever, and, you know, talking about art and politics. I have no idea what these people are talking about. And I remember after the din, you know, so I just hold my own. After the dinner, I was like, why did you bring me to this dinner? I was like, aren't you embarrassed to be there with me? You know, you're so much older than me. He was like, no, it's no big deal. And I'm like, are you serious? And I remember asking him, like, I had no idea what they were saying the whole time. And he was like, oh, if you just read the New York Times every day, you'll understand. Everything, you know, And I was just like, this is just the weirdest world. And then he dropped me off at the, at my house. And I remember running upstairs and telling my girlfriends like, you won't believe what just happened.
- [38:11]
Interviewer/Podcaster
I was like, so he just did dinner?
- [38:14]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, it was just dinner. It was really nothing dropped me off. Granted, I never went back out with him again because now that I know how it works, probably would have been abused at some point, but I didn't. I never went back out with that guy. Cause I just thought, how weird is that? And I remember going back to my agency like the next day or whenever I went in there and being like, you know, you hooked me up with a, like a 70 year old man
- [38:36]
Interviewer/Podcaster
who was sitting next to the dude who I'm guessing by the timeline had just lost the most contentious presidential election ever. Just casually.
- [38:45]
Lisa Phillips
And why would you bring someone like me, you know, someone so young with you to such an important dinner with all like political people there, you know, that the climate, everyone that was around. Why would you be so like candid not to think like that's kind of. I even said to him, aren't you embarrassed of me to be there with you? You know, there's probably like a 50 year old, I mean a 50 age gap here. It was just nothing. Now I understand that why it's nothing, you know, but back then I just was like, you guys are weird. And that was my model agency that put me on a blind date with this guy knowing full well and didn't even say to me, look, he's going to be a little older than you. You know, didn't even like say anything to me. That's how much like they just like use and abuse you. You know, just, you're a little pawn in their whole little game, you know, they just don't really give a. They probably wouldn't have cared if I was assaulted by that guy that night.
- [39:46]
Interviewer/Podcaster
No, I don't think they would have. Yeah, I think that's probably part of the expectation. You were having enough fun doing the job of modeling and as you said, having these other experiences around the world and whatever, that you were able to kind of separate those two. But as someone who spent years as a model and then spent a lot of years working in the industry as a modeling scout, like looking back on it now, knowing what you know, are you kind of like this is such a gross industry?
- [40:16]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, I mean, this was. Yeah, I mean that's the reason why I tapped out about two years ago. Yeah, I was like Done.
- [40:22]
Interviewer/Podcaster
What was the breaking point?
- [40:24]
Lisa Phillips
Well, I mean, all this stuff was coming up, and I had been through these depositions with Virginia Giuffre. I was deposed for her case, and with the JP Morgan, I found out lots of information.
- [40:35]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Bookmark that. We'll come back.
- [40:36]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, it's just so many things. I was just, like, also sitting in the offices at one of the most prestigious agencies in the world and still having girls and boys come in saying, you know, this person touched me, and this person, like, tried to hit on me, and this person assaulted me. I'm, like, still. Like, this is still going on. Where's the protection? You know? And I just was getting fed up of it. So I really decided right in that moment, like, I'm getting out of this business, and I'm gonna go right into podcasting, because that's the thing to go into right now. I'm gonna start a podcast, and I'm gonna talk to survivors. I'm a survivor. I'm gonna start telling my story, and I'm gonna listen to survivor stories. And I just ended up just doing it very quickly about. About two years ago, I just went right into it and started doing it.
- [41:24]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Good for you.
- [41:24]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [41:25]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Oh, I also have to hook you up with Sarah Edmondson as well. I know. I had her in here. She was really. Her story is really amazing, too. You guys would do a great podcast together.
- [41:34]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [41:35]
Interviewer/Podcaster
But, you know, I think, unfortunately, when you now see something so blatantly made in the open and people not going to prison, you know, you ask yourself, wow, this stuff's still happening. Why? Well, here's why. Because other people look at it and they go, well, look, even those guys don't go to prison. They were doing cannibal shit.
- [41:59]
Lisa Phillips
Exactly. That's why someone like Pam Bondi had the responsibility to at least acknowledge people who have been assaulted. Acknowledge them. The fact that you don't even acknowledge them just spreads like wild fire throughout all survivors everywhere. Don't speak up.
- [42:18]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah. And she's a woman, too.
- [42:20]
Lisa Phillips
Not gonna get anywhere.
- [42:21]
Interviewer/Podcaster
She's a woman, too. That's really, like, double.
- [42:25]
Lisa Phillips
You don't have. You have no idea how many people in the modeling business have been abused. I mean, most models will be like me. Two times, six times, ten times. It happens so much, you know, with young, ambitious women. Not just modeling, entertainment world, music world is even worse, you know, but anyone who's working their way up the ladder to, you know, have a successful career, you know, yes, this stuff happens.
- [42:54]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Goes right back to the manipulation he did in the first conversation where he said he asked you about your dreams, your family, and all the. All the good stuff. You're talking about the most preeminent industry examples of places where that is what they sell. When you talk modeling, when you talk entertainment, when you talk Hollywood. It's like only a select few make it. You really want it, right? How bad do you want it?
- [43:18]
Lisa Phillips
Mm.
- [43:19]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And they prey on that.
- [43:20]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. And unfortunately, that's how a lot of the sex trafficking rings today. That's the foundation of them. Yeah. You know, they prey on those dreams, and that's how they say, oh, we all come to Vegas. Come to Vegas, and we're going to introduce you to the right people, whether it's a music business or whatever. And they come to Vegas and then they're right into the trafficking ring.
- [43:41]
Interviewer/Podcaster
How did you. You said you got married in 06.
- [43:43]
Lisa Phillips
Yes.
- [43:44]
Interviewer/Podcaster
How did you meet your husband?
- [43:46]
Lisa Phillips
We'll have to go into that.
- [43:48]
Interviewer/Podcaster
You don't have to. No, no. Sorry if that's not something.
- [43:50]
Lisa Phillips
We're divorced.
- [43:52]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Your ex husband.
- [43:53]
Lisa Phillips
I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean. I mean, I was in Malibu.
- [44:01]
Interviewer/Podcaster
It's a nice place. We don't have to talk about that.
- [44:04]
Lisa Phillips
Had a beautiful. You know, it just. It wasn't. I didn't. I hadn't. I hadn't confronted my trauma. I hadn't gone through therapy and stuff, so I brought a lot of that into the relationship, chose someone who didn't end up being a very good relationship for me. And so I ended up raising my children all by myself.
- [44:31]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Wow.
- [44:31]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, I ended up leaving. Yeah, I ended up leaving him and moving to New York again in 2011 to two young boys and just realizing I have to do it all myself. Ended up going kind of back into the modeling world. And many of the people that I knew helped me out, and I started a scouting agency and protecting models, finding models and managing them and placing them with big agencies. So I was pretty successful working in that business. And I had two little babies at the time and. And then found out a few months later that I was pregnant. And that was really difficult for me because I already had two young babies by myself and. And realize now I was pregnant, same father, but didn't even know, hadn't even shown or anything, you know, And I was three and a half months pregnant. So I ended up raising three boys. Three young boys on my own.
- [45:24]
Interviewer/Podcaster
That's amazing, though.
- [45:25]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. Yeah. I can tell you through my 30s, entirely through my 30s, never was in any relationship. I raised my boys early from my 30s to. Till I was 40 years old, raised my kids all on my own. It was the best years of my life, but the hardest years of my life, you know, here in. In New York City.
- [45:45]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah.
- [45:45]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. It wasn't until 2017 I moved with my kids. I always promised my kids, like, mommy is gonna make it. She's gonna take care of you, and we're gonna move to Los Angeles, and we're gonna have a view of the ocean, and we're gonna have, like, the best Life. And in 2017, I made that dream come true for them and moved them to Laguna Beach.
- [46:04]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Oh, it's awesome.
- [46:05]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. Yeah.
- [46:06]
Interviewer/Podcaster
A little different than New York City.
- [46:08]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. I just wanted to be near the ocean and, you know, have little surfer babies and have that beautiful California life. And so, you know, I was able to give that to them, you know. Yeah. But it wasn't until I was 40, when I started dating again, my kids were a little older.
- [46:25]
Interviewer/Podcaster
So. When you're. When you're raising them on your own for all these years, though, like you said, you weren't confronting what had happened. You and everything. Did it change? Obviously, like, you're. You were. You revolved your whole life around your kids and. And made unbelievable sacrifices for that and are clearly a great mom. Did it change at all how you look at your kids from, like, a protective mother standpoint, once you went back and thought about the things that have happened to you and then kind of looked at them like, oh, my God.
- [46:55]
Lisa Phillips
Oh, yeah. Very protective mom. But, I mean, I want have. I want to have independent children, you know, and I want them to think for themselves and do whatever they want to do in their lives, and I will always support them 100%, but I'm very protective of them, I mean, as any parent should be. But through those years, it was just them and. And me, you know, it was really, really beautiful. So I didn't have any relationships, and I didn't want to. You know, I had a failed marriage. I just chose really the wrong person for myself. We had nothing in common. He was Norwegian descent and, you know, didn't really bond with them and basically kind of gave them up in a way. And so, you know, I was in survival mode, I think, through my 30s, building a business, and basically in survival mode just all by myself, living in New York City, which is not cheap, you know, and really did it all on my own. And it took me about two or three years, and I, you know, had a successful business and I managed tons of models and. And really enjoyed it. And then was offered a position, you know, at women management and the industry, industry models, to be the head scout. And then I started traveling around the world again as a scout for a Japanese agency. And that's when I started going to all these countries and, and you know, doing the big scouting work.
- [48:20]
Interviewer/Podcaster
You get to take your kids with
- [48:21]
Lisa Phillips
you for some, but, but not really. They were young.
- [48:23]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah.
- [48:25]
Lisa Phillips
Thank God for my mother in law. She, she would come and stay with the kids and stuff. Thank God for her. I would never have been able to have, you know, the career that I had without my in laws, you know, taking care of the kids.
- [48:36]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Oh, so they're great. They stayed in, in your life.
- [48:39]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, I was. Yeah. I mean, wasn't so great in the beginning, you know, when I left their son. But, you know, after a while, they love their grandkids and they were there for them and that's cool. Anytime I would leave for, you know, a week at a time to take care of business and travel the world, you know, for my job, they would take care of the kids and I'm so grateful for them. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah.
- [49:00]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah. I didn't mean to step into something personal there with your husband. The only reason I was, I just
- [49:05]
Lisa Phillips
never ever talk about him. So.
- [49:06]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah, that. Absolutely fine with me. The, the, the only reason I was asking about that in general was because I was trying to figure out what, you know, mentally got you to a place to be able to trust someone enough to date them seriously and then marry them in this short years after, you know, you're being abused by Jeffrey. Like you said, the last time you saw Jeffrey was 04, is that right?
- [49:31]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. And I left straight to Los Angeles. I was an actress. I had, you know, one of the best managers and talent agencies. I was auditioning, you know. You know, I loved, I love being an actress and a model. I really, really loved it. I just never really liked, you know, what I was really up against. Right. Which was, you know, it's a nefarious business. It's not a very upfront and honest business. There's a lot of people that just want to take advantage of you. And I could clearly see that because of the level where I was, what I was working at and the friends that I knew, I could clearly see what was going on and I didn't like it. And so, you know, my husband, you know, he was Norwegian descent and it was a sweet man. And he was in commercial real estate and I really believed in him and I really thought I was, you Know, going to marry him. I mean, let's face it, I was pregnant, but I was trying to make things work with him. You know, I really wanted things to work and be with him, but, you know, found out very quickly that, you know, wasn't going to be a really good relationship. So it wasn't really my choice, you know, not to be with the father of my kids. But I just. Just, you know, the way it happened. Yeah.
- [50:44]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Now, you had talked about, like, over these years, you see Jeffrey very intermittently, and sometimes there's abuse, other times there weren't. Would there be something like in a time where you went and talked with them and had a conversation where it didn't end in abuse, would it be because it's in a public place or something like that? Is that the only reason it wouldn't happen or.
- [51:07]
Lisa Phillips
I think the only reason why it didn't happen was because there was someone else there that he could abuse.
- [51:12]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Oh.
- [51:14]
Lisa Phillips
Like, for instance, I was brought to his house for a couple parties. He would call me, like, I'm out with my friends. I'll bring your friends, you know, that kind of thing. And just naively just being okay, like, thinking it's another, like, party to go to. But then you'd walk in and you go up until like the. I guess it was the library with a big table and there was all these old men sitting around, like these nerdy old men. And it's like, okay, why are we here? You know, stuff like that, you know, gain would be there sometimes, you know, but there would be a much older men.
- [51:46]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Did you ever talk with her at length?
- [51:47]
Lisa Phillips
I. I mean, I met her, yes.
- [51:49]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah.
- [51:51]
Lisa Phillips
Well, I mean, she was from. Or went to school in Oxford, and I lived in Oxford growing up, you know, when I was young. And so, you know, had some conversation with her.
- [51:58]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And what did you think of her?
- [52:00]
Lisa Phillips
She was very charming and eloquent and, you know, beautiful and stylish and definitely was charming and, you know, just that's all I thought about her. I didn't really think anything else. I didn't really know anything back then about her like we do now, so. But she was very much interested in getting to know the other girls, you know, and. Or she was definitely an organizer of the only woman there with a bunch of men. So definitely like the organizer of. Of the girls being introduced to the men. Or I saw a couple friends, like, sitting on their laps and things like that. And it was definitely a flirty environment. I mean, I found out years later one of my friends was Brought into a room with one of the other men and assaulted and things. So
- [52:48]
Interviewer/Podcaster
how did that make you feel when you found that out?
- [52:51]
Lisa Phillips
Well, it wasn't. It didn't make me feel good, you know, since I had brought them there. It made me feel really bad about that. But I didn't know then really what happened. This was years later I found out about it. So it wasn't really told. Like, we weren't really, like I said.
- [53:08]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Right.
- [53:08]
Lisa Phillips
Nobody really said anything about it back then.
- [53:12]
Interviewer/Podcaster
What, when. When you would be invited to a party like this and then they'd say, bring friends, and then you do, and you've had bad things happen to you. But then you also said you had that other side of the relationship where he's like, oh, he's kind of a mentor and helping my career. Is that like, kind of looking back on you as, as. As a young, very young woman when this was happening? Is that kind of what made you be like, yeah, it'll be fine if they're there with me. It'll be fine. Like, is there that thought in your head that, like, nothing will happen if it's all of us there?
- [53:47]
Lisa Phillips
No. Well, not really. I just. I just knew that anyone who knew him benefited from it. I would say that they got kind of what they wanted, so a lot of times they wanted to meet him. So, like, a lot of times I didn't want to introduce my friend, but it's like, oh, your friend helped you get that? Can I meet him? It was like that kind of thing, you know. And so these are my really close friends. It wasn't like I went and right, Picked somebody off in the street and they're like, okay, coming in. It's my really good friends. Like, what, you know, you got to go to nyu, you know, or you got to do. And it's like, oh, well, okay, if you want to meet him, like, knowing, well, well, he does like these creepy massages and just so you know, you know, like, it was kind of like that. You did say that sometimes, you know, but I don't think I ever thought or knew that they would be assaulted. Sometimes you and a lot of survivors say this. Like, a lot of times you think it's only you because they're not saying that it happened to them, you know, So I didn't really know the extent of these assaults until, you know, modern day. I didn't really know then what was. What was really going on with them. I mean, sometimes you would ask them and they would say no. So I didn't you have to understand, the way we think about Epstein today is nothing like we thought back then. A lot of people just didn't really talk about him so much.
- [55:11]
Interviewer/Podcaster
That's right. You even have the top of the iceberg scraped back then.
- [55:17]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. Until it became a conversation. That was. That wasn't until late 2003, early 2004, when it became a conversation.
- [55:23]
Interviewer/Podcaster
I think it was even after that. Right.
- [55:25]
Lisa Phillips
Was 05. Well. Well, he was still involved with a lot of my friends and other people to 05.06. But for me, I was out early 2004.
- [55:34]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Okay.
- [55:34]
Lisa Phillips
And it was only because a girlfriend of mine came to. Came to me and said that she was abused through Jeffrey, you know, and she said. She said she went to go see him on the Upper east side apartment, I guess. Mansion. I guess it had never been that bad. But there was a situation where he had told her, with that demon look in his eyes, like, you need to go in that room right now. You need to have sex with him. And she was scared, and she did it, and she went into the room and somebody came in, had sex with her, just dismissed her and left. It was kind of this quick thing, which fucked her up, you know, because that wasn't what she was wanting or expecting. And then from there, that's when everything opened up. Because then she was the first one to say, this man made me do something. It's like, what He. Like, he made you? And then we started questioning, like, well, I wonder if, like, when he would call us to go, maybe that's what he wanted us to do, you know? But this is. This was like a forced thing with her. Like Virginia Giuffre explains in her book, go do that. You know? And so when she said that, she was just like, you have no idea who Jeffrey is. And, like, what are you talking about? Like, what do you mean? And so we call the friends over. We're all talking, like, what do you mean? What did he make you do? What's going on here? So it was more of like this. Oh, my gosh, are you serious? This. This type of conversation that we never had before. So this is three to four years in
- [57:08]
Interviewer/Podcaster
now. You hear it from other people.
- [57:10]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. And things are unraveling.
- [57:11]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah.
- [57:11]
Lisa Phillips
So it's a completely different way of thinking about this man.
- [57:17]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Did you guys, at any point in that conversation when this is coming out, did someone suggest to call the police or something like that? Or was it assumed that? It's like, yo, this guy's powerful. We gotta stay away.
- [57:31]
Lisa Phillips
Well, we Talked about it, about contacting the FBI. There was definitely talk about it, but nobody wanted to do it. We just wanted to. What we talked about was just the best way to get away from him so we didn't have to see him again. That was just what we spoke about. I know. I'm not quite sure if she ever saw him again after that. I've been thinking no, because she moved away after I moved away. We all just try to get away from New York, where he knew that he spent most of his time.
- [58:04]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And he would. Before this, though, he would, like, call you, you were saying, too. So that would be a lot of the contact where he's like, go meet with this person in Hollywood or go do this audition, then ask you about it afterwards. That was a lot of your communication with him, right?
- [58:16]
Lisa Phillips
Well, in person, yes. Or maybe a phone call. That's when he was pretty serious, because he's right to the point. But sometimes it would be the secretary's calling for things, and you would. You would have the chance to say no or I'm out of town, or tell him I'm out of town, you know, and maybe they would just try to hound somebody else to do something, you know, I never really thought that those horrible things were happening. I just kind of thought, okay, if he sent me for an audition and I was assaulted or somebody tried to have sex with me, that it was just that separate situation between the two of us. I had no idea that it was because of he was sending me for that reason. I just knew when I got back. I always thought it was strange. And even at Capitol to Hill, when I talked to all the girls and we sat down, I would say, did he groom? Did. I would say, did he ask you whenever you got back from meeting with anyone, exactly what happened? They were like, oh, my gosh. He wanted to know exactly every single detail of everything that happened from the moment you sat down with him and talked to him, how he. How he approached you, if he tried to assault you, if he tried to. You know what he said? Every single one of them said the same thing. And we're just like, wow. That's what I always thought. Because I always thought it was weird. He would ask me so many questions about one little incident, about one stupid audition, you know? But then there were girls sent to the same audition.
- [59:39]
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- [60:09]
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- [60:39]
Lisa Phillips
So you. So let's take a director, right? He's getting auditions from innovative artists and Abrams artists and all the different agencies. They're sending, you know, their talent to specific specifically for this role. But then Epstein is sending 10 girls. Yeah, there's a difference that he's sending these 10 girls, you know, for an audition. He's not a movie agent. You know what I mean? So that should have been the first red flag right there. But people are introduced to directors. It doesn't matter who you are. I think back then I was just excited to go on audition with a really big director, right? Yeah.
- [61:17]
Interviewer/Podcaster
I had asked you earlier where people maybe, if they aren't abused, learn to groom like that. And you said someone has to teach them. And there is a lot of evidence that one of the people who taught Jeffrey Epstein about this stuff was Adnan Khashoggi. That's a separate issue. But what you're saying right here, and I'm not saying this to make light of it at all, I'm just drawing a parallel. Is a 6 sadistic version of like an NFL coach watching a lot of tape and learning every single thing about the other team. When he would call you and in my opinion, just hearing you describe it and ask you about every single thing that happened, he's studying to see what the other person does, or if they were because you said he would say to you, like, oh, you didn't do anything or something like that, and then he'd be like, disappointed or something. So the disappointment might have been so sick that he's like, oh, my God, they weren't good enough to get her to do something like.
- [62:12]
Lisa Phillips
Like, yeah, could be on that.
- [62:14]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Oh, that's a level of depravity. That's a little beyond. Beyond the bill. Wow. Have you. Have you f. Did you follow the Diddy case at all?
- [62:28]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [62:31]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Did any of that surprise you with Diddy?
- [62:34]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, well, I mean, in the early 2000s, Diddy was around a lot, and everybody knew about his parties you didn't want to go to. I mean, there were the white. Well, there were the white parties, you know, I mean, I went to a white party. I mean, everybody wanted to go to the white parties, but, like, you know, the after parties I never went to, or most people I know didn't go to those. And. And they had a reputation of you didn't want to go to those parties. So that was very well known back then. I also knew, like a club. Club owner that used to say that, you know, he's gone to those parties and. And you know, about the bisexuality and things of Diddy and stuff. It was pretty well known, very open. Yeah, it's pretty well in the music industry back then that a lot of those men were doing those types of parties and stuff. So the different. The difference with. With Sean Combs is that he drugged. There was a lot of drugs around, and with Epstein, he liked you to be very present, and there was never any alcohol or drug. Drugs around.
- [63:32]
Interviewer/Podcaster
So you never saw him drink or anything like that, or he would never
- [63:35]
Lisa Phillips
give you drugs or alcohol. He wanted you to be present. And he hated drugs and alcohol.
- [63:41]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah.
- [63:41]
Lisa Phillips
Like, he looked down on you if you did them, you know, that's the difference. With P. Diddy, I think there was lots of drugs and alcohol involved. I mean, I think there was even drugs in the baby oil. Right. So I think there was. It was very different environments, but still, you know, sadist abuse, you know. Yeah.
- [64:04]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Now when you met Virginia Robert Shuffrey years later. Right. Well, actually, before I get to that, because you've mentioned it a few times that I think we should talk about that. When, when he first. Did you know that he got arrested in 0708 and that case happened, were you aware of any of that?
- [64:26]
Lisa Phillips
Yes, of course. At the time, I just didn't follow it closely.
- [64:31]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Okay.
- [64:31]
Lisa Phillips
And I didn't pay, like a lot of attention to it. I definitely didn't pay a lot of attention to it.
- [64:37]
Interviewer/Podcaster
So you didn't know the details of, like, there were 43, 12 and 13 and 14 year olds come.
- [64:41]
Lisa Phillips
Did anybody know that then?
- [64:42]
Interviewer/Podcaster
I don't.
- [64:42]
Lisa Phillips
I don't think so, no. I just knew that they were underage girls. And then I would speak to Some of my friends about it. Gosh, did you know that Jeffrey was with underage girls? And then. And then I had to remember there was this one time that my girlfriends and I, we flew on a. On the airplane down to, like, West Palm beach, and we were supposed to be going to Miami. We ended up in West Palm Beach. And I remember one of the girls, Rena. Oh, she's been pretty outspoken.
- [65:12]
Interviewer/Podcaster
I remember.
- [65:13]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, Rena called Jeffrey and was like, oh, we're surrendering in West Palm. You know, we need to. We need a ride. And he had. He organized a car to pick us up to take us to Miami. And when we got into the car to take us to Miami, there was a really young girl in the car. And I remember we were just like, why is she here? Like, that's so weird. And I remember we'd always spoken about it. Why was that young girl in the car? And then now we know why there was a young girl in the car. But that was the only thing that I ever saw that would. I would never have thought that he was into anyone underage. He was very, very adamant if any of the girls that were around were over 18. And that's what I always saw. And that was. That's what I always thought anyway. They could have been underage, but I never knew. The girls on the island, I found out were underage, but I never knew
- [66:06]
Interviewer/Podcaster
then that they were the ones you were there with.
- [66:10]
Lisa Phillips
I never knew they were. I mean, I'm sure maybe they were told to lie and say they were overage or. We probably just didn't even talk about it. That's the thing.
- [66:16]
Interviewer/Podcaster
That's the thing about, like, the blackmail and stuff. Like, all you gotta do if you want to blackmail someone like that is. Let me think about really blatant example, because I don't know how this would work, but you have rooms cameraed up. Some guy goes in to have what it. You know, even on camera might appear to be consensual sex, but let's actually assume it's not. But it might appear that way in a court of law. You might be able to make the argument. But if someone comes in afterwards and pulls out the driver's license or the passport or whatever, identification of that person and just holds it up to the camera, you're, yeah, it's done. And so there are people. Because it's so hard to skim through all this and be like, could this person be innocent? Could everyone just looks guilty and you just want to go off with all your heads but there are people who have said, like, people who are viewed as. As perpetrators of this stuff who have said exactly what you just said, which is, I always saw them with young women, but I never saw them with a 12 or 13 year old or 14 year old or something like that. They were always of age. And so I was like, all right, whatever. And it's like when I hear people say that, I'm like, I could see how the fog sets in, but to me, it's like looking at it from their perspectives. All right, you go into an island with the guy and it's you and him and like a few housekeepers and like fucking 10 women. That's not a little weird?
- [67:48]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, exactly. Even. Just. Even. Just the 16 to 22 year olds that are on the island, you know, it was a little weird to have a whole bunch of young girls on the island, you know, do these men even know that their passports are taken away and they can't leave life until he says they can leave? That's crazy. You know, stuff like that.
- [68:03]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Who took your passport again?
- [68:06]
Lisa Phillips
Well. Well, Epstein would take the passports of the girls when you go to the island personally. Yeah. So you. So you can't get away. Yeah.
- [68:16]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Oh, man.
- [68:18]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. Yeah. So people don't know all this stuff is going on, and you don't really know which men knew of young girls or the really young girls. You just don't know until you read the files and you do an investigation, you know, I mean, you have Bill Gates saying, you know, I had sex with a Russian girl. Was it a 16 year old Russian girl or was it a 22 year old? You know, I mean, she's not coming forward, but like, what do you know? You know, you got an STD from her, you know, that you're trying to hide from your wife? I mean, I love Melinda Gates.
- [68:51]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Oh, she's gone.
- [68:52]
Lisa Phillips
Oh, I love her. She's just going off. And that's what we need women who say, you know, enough is enough. She's an Epstein survivor, you know. Well, yeah, she survived him.
- [69:02]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah.
- [69:02]
Lisa Phillips
You know, because her husband was locked in there, saying all these years, oh, I just don't know that guy that well.
- [69:09]
Interviewer/Podcaster
The best line ever. He's like, well, he's dead. So.
- [69:12]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, he's dead. Yeah. You think. You think all your skeletons in your closet go away just because he's dead?
- [69:18]
Interviewer/Podcaster
That's not an answer, my man. Oh, my God. Oh, it's so bad. When did you. Did you not meet Virginia Robert Giuffre until 2019, when yeah, well, I never
- [69:31]
Lisa Phillips
actually met her in person. I've only spoken to her on the phone a few times. I reached out to her because she spoke out in 2019 about Prince Andrew.
- [69:40]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Right.
- [69:40]
Lisa Phillips
And I reached out to her because I knew of two things about Prince Andrew, and I wanted just to corroborate her story or support her. The first one was seeing him on the island, and the second one was my girlfriend. She was made to have sex, and she told me it was a prince.
- [69:56]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Was that the one who went into the room?
- [69:58]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [69:58]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And came back and blew the whole whistle?
- [70:00]
Lisa Phillips
Yes, that was the one.
- [70:01]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And that was in the. In the mansion.
- [70:04]
Lisa Phillips
Well, she had told me it was a prince, and I said, I met a prince on the island.
- [70:09]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah.
- [70:09]
Lisa Phillips
And so we put two and two together. And then Virginia spoke out and said she was abused by a prince. And I. You know, during. During those years, I started speaking out. I didn't really have a support system. So I reached out to the survivors, Virginia and the other Marika and the other girls that were there, and started talking, you know, with them about our stories and how it lined up. It was the same years. So what?
- [70:35]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Because you were. You said you were at least aware a case was happening in 08 when it was happening, 07 08, in 2019, when he got arrested, obviously the story went crazy mainstream, and that is a big difference here. They kind, like, shove the other one under the rug when it was happening. What made you go, whoa, and have it all, like, have your moment? And when was that moment where it all came back and you're like, holy? I was trafficked, assaulted, all this stuff. And I've never talked about this. Like, what was that moment?
- [71:06]
Lisa Phillips
Well, the trafficking, the assault, all that stuff took years to come out. So there wasn't that moment, but there was a moment when he died when everything came, like, off my shoulders with him dying was when I was finally able to say, okay, wait a second. I had. I had a. Just a reaction to it that just was. It was really profound. So I wanted to know answers, and I wanted. I just wanted to know, like, what was going on. There was so many things back then, and I just wanted to reach out to people and try to, you know, understand the story. And that took. Took. Took several years, because when I spoke out in 20, 20, 21, you know, it was really to support other survivors and their stories. It wasn't even. Like, I hadn't even really gotten to my story yet. That came a little bit later with being deposed for things and talking about it. The Epstein Fund started talking a little bit more about it the more I started. The Epstein Fund, yeah, there was this, you know, Virgin Island Epstein Fund. I didn't get a payout or settlement of it, but a lot of the survivor 200 something survivors did. But I. But I was. I did go and tell my story that was almost like, you know, like almost being reabused again because those women were not empathetic at all. And so I kind of shunned away from telling my story. So it took me some time to get there.
- [72:26]
Interviewer/Podcaster
When did you start therapy?
- [72:29]
Lisa Phillips
Two years ago. So it took some time.
- [72:31]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Oh, wow.
- [72:32]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [72:32]
Interviewer/Podcaster
So not at all, right?
- [72:33]
Lisa Phillips
Well, actually, no, I did start with therapy right after that, but it didn't really work for me. It was just talk therapy, and it didn't really do anything for me. Just talking about stuff.
- [72:41]
Interviewer/Podcaster
What was different about the therapy, the
- [72:43]
Lisa Phillips
therapy that I got two years ago was EMDR therapy. And so EMDR is when they use, like, a flashlight and they go back and forth like this, and your eyes go back and forth like this, and you go into that kind of like, memories that are stored, and you bring those up and you talk about them, and then you kind of restore them. And so it's like this. This kind of like hypnotherapy. It's very popular with trauma victims. And it works. It works. And it's very traumatic to bring. Bring these new, actually old thoughts and memories back. But then you kind of compartmentalize them and take them delicately, you know, sensitively to talk about them, and then kind of put them back. And then there's pulse pulsating things in your hands that. So the memories are going back and forth in your head. The flashing lights, the music. And so it's going back into that part of your memory that's suppressed. And trust me, mine was deeply suppressed in there. So it took a little bit of time, but you would definitely have outbursts and, you know, moments of, like, breaking down and crying fits and things like that, trying to get through it, because you don't really want to go there as they're starting to re remember things. And unfortunately, it goes into your childhood and the abuse maybe that you had in your childhood that you don't really want to talk about. Because I tend to be like, I had the best childhood. I traveled all around the world and I had everything I wanted earlier. I've always said that, you know, but EMDR taught me, no, girl, you did not have the best childhood. You did not have a support system. You didn't feel safe. You didn't have the emotional capacity to, you know, be loved in the way that you needed. Like, my parents bought me everything I needed, you know, and they will say today, well, you know, and when you lived in New York those eight years, you know, I came there, gave you 15 grand for your. For your divorce. You know, I was there for you, but I'm like, lived there for eight years. You never came. You never helped me out for eight years. You came one time in eight years. You know, that's not the love and attention and what I needed then. You know. You know, the type of people who say, you know, all these things that you did wrong but never gave you that support to make it better, you know, to leave your child in survival mode, which is I was in for so long, you know, and so EMDR taught me, you know, you didn't have a safe place. You didn't have that love that you needed. And granted, now I have it with my children. So I had to bore people to get the love and support that I needed. And trust me, it's the best love and support I'll ever have. Unconditional love. So I do have it now. But EMDR therapy, it'll take you by the balls and, like, it makes you really look deep and hard into things. But because I had. That was the reason why I'm able to be this person in front of you that's powerful and brave today. If I didn't have EMDR therapy, I would never have been able to beat this person in front of you. I needed some type of hard therapy and to be able to hold space for people in my podcast of their, you know, traumatic stories. I. I go to EMDR on Wednesdays for two hours for myself, actively doing it for myself. And on Thursdays, I go for the survivors, you know, I go for their stories because it's traumatic dealing with that.
- [76:12]
Interviewer/Podcaster
So then do you guys do it in a group setting?
- [76:15]
Lisa Phillips
No, I go for myself just to work on what Lisa needs to work on personal stuff. Stuff. And then after I work with survivors and do this, you know, this work is not easy to talk. You know, you're doing it with me, talking to survivors and hearing their stories, especially a domestic violence and stalking and all the things child abuse that we go into on my podcast, I have to go to EMDR therapy to deal with the trauma from others. Yeah, I'm taking on their trauma because I'm the one sitting there crying where they're the bold and brave ones, talking. So you know, it's a lot of work. I'm surprised you're not in therapy for it.
- [76:49]
Interviewer/Podcaster
I think, you know, I. I get to talk with so many different types of people. I do all different types of content. And thank God, because if I had to do. I mean, this is amazing today, but if I had to do one like this every day, I. I probably would be in therapy, because you do really. First of all, there's, like, a great delicacy to one like this, because I don't want you talking about things you don't want to talk about. There's also cameras rolling and everything, too, and I want you to feel comfortable and all that. But I'm also trying to understand something that's not possible for me to fully understand, but do it enough that I can get it to a place to where you can at least share an experience to other people out there. It can be like, oh, my God. Wow, I never thought of it that way.
- [77:43]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [77:43]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Or something like that. And when you do that, I mean, these aren't happy stories. You know what I mean?
- [77:51]
Lisa Phillips
No, but they're so important to tell.
- [77:53]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yes.
- [77:53]
Lisa Phillips
Like, you just said it, like, so people can understand and think, oh, I never thought of it that way. That's the whole point of doing it, is for you to get a better understanding of how things work, how. How these master manipulators operate, how people groom, how they. How they can sexually assault you over and over. Why do you keep going back all these questions, you know, and so people can really understand, you know, the complexity of. Of abuse, especially when it comes to a serial predator like an Epstein, you know, even just like a Cosby, you know, even understanding how these actresses went to go meet with this guy and how they were drugged and raped and don't even know what happened to them. You know, how. How everyone has their, like, M.O. and how they can get away with it for so long. I speak out for those reasons. And also the other half of it is because I want to be there for survivors. And I. I'm always representing hundreds, if not thousands of survivors every time I step up on Capitol Hill, every time I'm on the podcast, every time. People send me hundreds of messages all the time. Right. I was just in Ireland, you know, all the messages that come in from people in Ireland who are like, I have something I want to tell you, you know, and just, like, getting it off their chest, like, this is something that is a huge, massive movement that's happening right now where people are actually being aware for the first time speaking it out loud of their abuse that they had. Because we all, 1 in 3, 1 in 4, have had some type of. Of abuse, whether it's just like your narcissistic girlfriend, you know? You know, all different forms. All different forms.
- [79:34]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Absolutely.
- [79:34]
Lisa Phillips
You know, and two, really the worst forms of it.
- [79:37]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah.
- [79:37]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [79:38]
Interviewer/Podcaster
When you were doing. What's the EMDR? It's called when you were doing EMDR for the first time in 23 or 24. Two years ago, when you were doing it and it made you look back on your childhood and everything. This is also, if I'm not mistaken, from what you explained earlier, this is also since you kind of ceased having a relationship with your parents. Right. And your parents. At least the way I understood it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. It kind of stemmed from them not being comfortable with you talking about this or sharing your experiences, and they kind of abandoned you from that. Did that make it. I don't know if the words easier, but give you a clearer path to maybe look at your childhood differently through the lens of this therapy because you were now past the point where you're like, God, at a moment. I needed them the most. My parents literally said, you're gone.
- [80:32]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. The moments I needed them the most, they were. They weren't there for me. That was the years when I lived in New York City, when I had three young children. They weren't there for me. And not to say they don't have their reasons, but, I mean, I'm their child. There's never any reason in my book. There's no reason that I'm gonna turn my back on my child. There's never anything they could do. So I don't understand that. I did ask my mother. I did ask her, and I think it was 20, 23 in January. There were some text messages that went from my mother to an ex boyfriend who had seen me on a documentary and had reached out to me, you know, and had formed a relationship with me. And he pretended like he was a friend, and my parents had met him, and, you know, he was a really good Christian guy. And after getting to know him, he was very clear that he wanted to. To abuse me. You know, he wanted to have a threesome with me. He wanted to choke and spit on me. He wanted to do all these sexual things with me, and I didn't want to have a relationship with him. And, I don't know, my mother, for some reason, took his side because he was like this good Christian man. And on paper, he was like this good guy. And she didn't understand why I didn't want to have a relationship with this guy, even though I was trying to tell him he was abusive. So we had this big falling out over this, this particular man.
- [82:00]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Did you tell her what he wanted to do?
- [82:02]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, I did tell her. But for some reason, a lot of parents, I don't know, I've come to realize a lot of mothers want their daughters to be in a relationship, no matter if it's abusive or not. They want to have that relationship where, you know, this wealthy man is taking care of you and your family. Oh, he said he was going to take care of your kids and put them through college. Yeah, mom, but he told me he wanted to choke me and spit on me too, you know, so there was just all this crazy stuff going on with this person who had definitely groomed and manipulated my mother. So long story short, I'm just trying to explain why I don't speak to them anymore.
- [82:38]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah, it's clocking for me.
- [82:40]
Lisa Phillips
So things were, things weren't good with my parents after this relationship with this particular man. Then six months went by and so January comes about and I'm looking at my phone and text messages are coming in from my mom, but they're not to me. They're to the other guy that had broken up with six months earlier. And I'm like, oh, right, what's funny? Why is she texting him? But I read the text messages and she's telling him how I should have never left him and he was the best thing that ever happened to me and shame on Lisa. And so I finally had the guts because normally I'm just like, oh, my mom, you know, she just must be a bad moment or something. I was always sticking up for her, but in this moment, I hadn't spoken to her in a while. And so I said, oh, mom, you know, why are you talking to this person like that? You know, And I can clearly see that you're saying, you know, oh, I don't even talk to Lisa anymore. And I'm like, well, I didn't know you weren't talking to me anymore. You know, that's news to me. And I said, well, what's the problem? And she goes, well, I'm ashamed of you. And so she wrote it. I can read the text message, I'm ashamed of you. And I was like, oh, that's funny, you're ashamed of me, but you're not ashamed of this guy who's like sleeping with 70 year old, you Know, ratchet call girls, you know, which I had, like, eight pictures I sent to her of him with these ratchet call girls. Like, this came out about him, but she was ashamed of me. You know, who's this mother of kids who was just trying to be in a real relationship. So it's just all this stuff came out where my mom clearly said, you know, like, I'm ashamed of you. And that was the last text message I ever got from her. It was the last message. And that was January of 2023. And so for me personally, that was the hardest relationship I had ever had to let go of. It took me a year to deal with the fact that she didn't want to be in my life. She wanted to be in my life to everyone else around, you know, to pretend like she was in my life. That's how she really felt about me, on her terms. Yeah. And it was hard for me. So I needed that EMDR therapy really bad to be able to me. That was the biggest heartbreak of my life because not only did that did I had to let go of her because of her and her flying monkeys and all the other people. Had to let go of my aunts and my cousins and my. My. My. My sisters and brothers because, you know, that she, you know, infiltrated to them. You know, how she thought about me. And I didn't have a chance to, like, save myself. And so now I'm had to deal with this through this therapy. Took me a long time. It probably took me a good year and a half to finally get to the point where my therapist is trying to drill in my head, you know, your mother's never been there for you. She's never supported you. She's never probably really loved you the way that you needed. You need to move on from this. And so I finally got to the point, probably was more recently, where I'm just at the point where I'm like, you know, what if you're not good for me, if you're taking other people's sides than your own daughter, like, I have to step away. So I got to the point where I was creating these boundaries. Finally, for the first time in my life, I'm there now. I'm. I'm literally locked in now. Like, nobody's coming in unless you are really fully supportive of me. And that means anyone who's even trying to be in a relationship with me, any man, nothing. So, you know, of course, because of that reason, I've been single for a few years leading up to a year ago. And, you know, just had to create these boundaries. But that gave me actually, for the first time, that power to take my power back and be like, you know what? I'm only gonna have people that love and support me around me, which meant there wasn't that many of them. And then had to go find the people that love and support me, like you and other podcasters and other survivors and other people that we've formed now this real family, you know, of support system that's beautiful. And I never really had before.
- [86:42]
Interviewer/Podcaster
I'm. I'm sorry that happened. Yeah, that's whenever I hear that. And I know, like, Deep can speak the same way. Like, it just makes me feel really lucky. Like, I had.
- [86:50]
Lisa Phillips
You were so lucky.
- [86:51]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Great parents. You know what I mean?
- [86:53]
Lisa Phillips
Like, you're very lucky.
- [86:55]
Interviewer/Podcaster
It just doesn't. I had another guy in here, talked about his mom on her. The fourth husband and third husband, I can't remember, was like, the main one from his childhood, some abusive stepfather. And there was a day where she told him, I love you, but I love him more, which means she. She didn't love her kid. That just, like, doesn't even process to me. And hearing what your mom says, like, literally taking the side of abusers, I might add, you know, I think I kind of was, like, getting at this earlier. But now that you've gone back in therapy and, like, looked at this, do you feel like your mom maybe never loved you or she just doesn't know how to show or feel love?
- [87:44]
Lisa Phillips
Well, I think that I was always aware of it. You know, I was always aware of it, but I never wanted to admit it, you know, I never really wanted to be fully abandoned by her. So I didn't. That was actually the third time I'd seen messages like that that accidentally went to me or that I'd seen. It was the third time. And so the first couple times, I just, oh, this can't be true. It was just a mistake, or, you know, she can't really feel that way. But by the third time, I was like, lisa, wake up. You know, this. This person's not on your side. And I had to realize that, you know, but when. When they make it look like to everyone else that you're the problem and not them, that I feel this way, and she's the one who doesn't want to be in my life. No, it's not really that way. I'm the one who, I feel like has always desperately wanted my family to be in my life and be supportive. Like, I feel Like I am of them. But we don't always choose our family. You have a wonderful family, and you're so blessed for that. To me, that's the most beautiful thing in the world. But it's the reason why I dedicated my life to my children, to be the best thing for them. And my. My kids know that. That mommy's like, 100%, 100 for them. And they feel safe. You know, they feel really safe. And that's. I think, what all kids really, really need is to feel safe.
- [89:04]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Well, that. That. That's a hundred percent true. And also, like, that's the best case scenario. Like, what you don't want to do is continue the cycle.
- [89:14]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, The.
- [89:15]
Interviewer/Podcaster
The brave thing is to be able to. And the right thing is to be able to break the cycle and be the opposite of all the things that you were missing. And it sounds like obviously you're doing that so that. I mean, that's the. The silver lining on the other side. Doesn't change that these things happen, you know? I'm sorry about that.
- [89:31]
Lisa Phillips
Well, people love in different ways. I mean, my parents were very functional. You know, they gave me everything they wanted. We traveled around the world. I mean, I had, trust me, everything I ever wanted, you know, and they were great parents. So I always had that, like, narrative all the time. Like, I had the best upbringing, the best childhood. I lived on a boat, and I did all these things, you know, but then it's like my therapist, like, look, lady, wake up. You didn't have emotional support. Give me a reason. Give me a time when you had emotional support. I never had to realize. I never had it. I spent months away. You know, I never knew how to miss people. Like, I would. I didn't know how to. I didn't have that emotion of missing someone. Like, I would go away for three or four months at a time, away from my family, and I never miss them. I would have friends or roomies, roomies, you know, who would be like, I just miss my mom so much. I miss my dad. My dad's everything. They would get little notes from him, or I miss my boyfriend. And I never really had someone to miss. Like, I never had that feeling of missing. You know, I only had it, like, in the last year. I finally met someone a year ago, you know who. We have this wonderful friendship, you know, this foundation of, you know, just safety. Like, finally, for the first time in my life, the first time in my life, and I'm in my 40s now, a safe relationship that isn't based on knowing that guy just wants to sleep with me or just wants my body, you know.
- [90:57]
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- [91:15]
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- [91:50]
C
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- [91:57]
Lisa Phillips
is, you know what? A lot of women have this type of relationship with men.
- [92:01]
Interviewer/Podcaster
That is the ultimate compliment from a guy's perspective. The number one compliment that you can ever get from a woman is when they say, I feel safe with you.
- [92:11]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, right.
- [92:12]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And it's true.
- [92:14]
Lisa Phillips
Is it true? Yeah.
- [92:15]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And I, you know, I'm sure that sometimes there's people who take advantage of that, which is awful. But it sounds like you've. You finally found something where you genuinely feel that way and have seen that exhibited over a long period of time. And that's great. I'm happy for you with that.
- [92:32]
Lisa Phillips
Thank you.
- [92:35]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Have you talked to your dad at all? Is your dad in the same boat as your mom or.
- [92:40]
Lisa Phillips
Well, my dad was just the type that never reached out. He never called or texts my mom. My mom always did it. So she was always the one that I spoke to. So when she wrote that text message to me in January 2023 and I stopped reaching out, I stopped trying. No, I didn't really hear from my dad that much after that. He Came out recently for, you know, something with my family. And, you know, he saw a plaque on the wall that said, like, you know, like, top entrepreneur. Or was it like, top. Like One of the 10 top people to look out for in 2024. One of the. Sorry. One of the. One of the top influential. Influential people to look out for in 2024. It was like a headline like that with my picture. And he pointed at it and said, you know, I'm really proud of you. You. You know, so that meant a lot to me. That's all I ever wanted. You know, words or affirmation are my love language. And so all I ever wanted was to feel like my parents were proud of me. You know, I never really felt that through my life, so that. That felt good.
- [93:50]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Interesting.
- [93:51]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [93:51]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And you still don't have a relationship with your siblings. You said your mom would, like, kind of pit you guys against each other as kids.
- [93:59]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. Up until. Yeah. Present day.
- [94:02]
Interviewer/Podcaster
How. What's the age gap between each of you? Older brother, younger sister.
- [94:05]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, my brother's a year younger. My sister's just three years younger.
- [94:08]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Okay. I said, wow, you guys are pretty close in age, too. You're not tight. It makes sense.
- [94:18]
Lisa Phillips
Well, come to find out, a lot of siblings aren't tight.
- [94:23]
Interviewer/Podcaster
It sounds like, though, there's a lot of siblings because I was an only child, so I can't speak to this from experience. Experience. But I know. I see what you're saying there. But I'll see a lot of relationships where siblings aren't tight, but there's. It's more like mutual respect or. No, what's the word? Like, there's underlying tension, but there's very clear, shared, lived experiences that they can go to. And it sounds like you didn't really have that part.
- [94:53]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, I didn't. I never understood that because I had girlfriends that. That did not have a close relationship with their sisters, but they were sisters. They would still get together, the family, and they're still sisters, even though they weren't close. And I know guys that hate each other, you know, their brother, they hate each other, but, like, whenever they're together and holidays and stuff, they're still brothers. You know what I mean? It's just like I never really had that close family dynamic. And we were very small family, so I didn't. I just didn't have that. That's why. Why I took marriage seriously, why I wanted to have a big family. You know, I always wanted to have kids and have that. That my own family to have. You Know, a really close, you know, knit relationship. But, you know, I do have that now.
- [95:33]
Interviewer/Podcaster
You've done that? Yeah. It's awesome. Are you. Are you religious at all, or have you ever been religious?
- [95:38]
Lisa Phillips
Well, I mean, I wasn't raised under any religion. My mom was Roman Catholic, but we weren't raised. My father just let us believe, you know, figure it out on our own. I mean, I've. I feel like I'm very, very spiritual. You know, I do a lot of, you know, meditation, and I have, like, this. Retreats and things. I go on. I feel very spiritual, but I'm not like, a religious person. No, no.
- [96:02]
Interviewer/Podcaster
But do you believe in, like, a higher power?
- [96:04]
Lisa Phillips
Oh, for sure, yes. A definite higher power. I believe in God. Yeah.
- [96:09]
Interviewer/Podcaster
I'm not a religious person either, but I certainly believe in God and certainly believe in a higher power. And I try to live my life assuming I'm humble and not knowing what comes next. And I'm gonna have to answer for things. I so do as much good as possible. Right. And I think everyone has to kind of have their own relationship with that. So however people get to that is great with me.
- [96:32]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [96:32]
Interviewer/Podcaster
But I got to tell you, reading through these files and seeing the things that they're talking about and the things they did and hearing about personal experiences that you've shared today and other victims have shared, and again, all the stuff we don't even know about yet yet, it is impossible to not look at this and say there is Satanism going on, whatever that is. I don't even. I'm not the guy that can define that. There's way better people in the comment sections that could actually, like, really define that. But do you have a similar experience when. When you read about this and see these things? Like the. Like, this is, like, ritualistic in a way.
- [97:17]
Lisa Phillips
Well, Satanism is real. It really is a. I mean, the Epstein world is a cult. It's a cult. If you look up anything about cults, this has the exact same. The leaders, you know, and the followers and the major grooming that's going on. And if you look at the rituals and stuff that they do, the pretty disgusting rituals that they do, it is a form of devil worshiping. And Yeah, I mean, I think with one extreme, you have to have the other. And the beautiful light and the God and the peace and, you know, the beautiful universe and things that we know are real as well. You know, I don't really get into all the other religious stuff, and people can believe whatever they want to, but I do believe There's a very dark evil with also the beautiful light. And I feel like we're all trying to get to that beautiful light right now and try to take some of that evil away. Now that we're aware of what's going on, we're hoping somehow to move away from it or shift something that we can't. Those people aren't able to do those horrendous things anymore. There's gotta be something. We can't just now know what's going on and not do something about it. What that is and how we're gonna get there, I have no clue. You know, that's. We all have to figure out right now. But we have to keep trying because now that we've seen how dark that goes, how could you sit around and just let that happen?
- [98:51]
Interviewer/Podcaster
I agree. 100. Lisa. It's, you know, and I hope something does. But. Yeah, you. You've described that look in Jeffrey Epstein's eyes a few times that I believe the word you use was, like, demonic, like the demon look.
- [99:06]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. That shift. Yeah.
- [99:08]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Do you think there's something more to that meaning? Like, if demons are real, then he was possessed by one or was one.
- [99:20]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of conspiracy theories about how far that goes with, like, the lizards and the vampires and all this crazy stuff. Anything is possible. I don't. I don't like to say. Nope, that can't be possible. I don't know. I do know there's some demonic stuff going on there within him. With. With Gay Ghislaine, with. With many of them. I mean, he was clear as day, if you read it on files. So I'm not like, you know, making. Making anything up. It's. It's clear as day. So I don't know. For me, it's very scary. And there's a reason why a lot of people have a lot of fear around it. It.
- [99:58]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah. You know, and Les Wexner's even. He even talked about it openly in the past. Now, I guess you could say it's a figure of speech. Possible meaning possibly, but I don't think it is. I think. I think it was an honest Freudian slip, if you will. But he talked about in Thief. Can we pull this up? It was in the 80s or 90s. There was a big article spread on him maybe in gq. I could be misremembering it, but we'll. We'll. I'm sure Deep will find it. It was in gq. You okay? But he. He talked about. He's possessed by. I believe it's called a dibbic, which is a Yiddish word for demon boy. And literally says it. And. And it's like it drives him and it. And it makes him do the things he does. Not in a court of law. You could say, oh, he's just saying he's trying to drive towards wealth or whatever.
- [100:49]
Lisa Phillips
But I said that.
- [100:50]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Right. When I see the bachelor billionaire. Right. When I see an evil of a guy like this. Yeah, they've got it right here. And he's actually saying something like this. It's like D I B B Y K or something like that.
- [101:02]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. They protect him. For whatever reason in the files and everything, they protect him. That was one of the things that the Pambanda hearing when they. I think it was Massey who brought it up. Right. And he had to demand they release that name. And it was his.
- [101:15]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yes. That there were six names that Rokhanna said after he and Massie went and visited the DOJ to review it. It and then walked out and said them. And I still have to do. I recognized a bunch of the names. I still have to do more homework on the other ones. The one that I gave a about immediately was that he was one. And it's like. Yeah, five mentions of it. Yeah, five mentions. There it is. Yeah. Yeah. All right, so in the. Can you just zoom in a little bit deep? Thank you, brother. So in the morning, Leslie Wexner became a billionaire. He woke up worried, but this was not unusual. He always wakes up worried because of his dybbuk, which pokes and prods and gives him the itchiness of soul that he calls ficus. Some. Sometimes he runs away from it on the roads of Columbus or drives away from it in his Porsche or flies away from it. Can we get the next instance? Yeah, the next instance.
- [102:15]
Lisa Phillips
That's already creepy.
- [102:16]
Interviewer/Podcaster
He met his Dybbuk again when he climbed Vale Mountain and changed his life. Right, let's go to the next one. I want to see where they defined it. All right, here it is. Perhaps it's time to reintroduce Leslie Wexner's Dybbuk, the demon that always wakes up in the morning with Wexner and tweaks and pulls at him. When he was a boy, his father called it tummel, a churning. So he feels, quote, molten and unformed, pricked by the spiritual pins and needles. He met this demon again when he was 40 and already worth half a billion when he climbed the mountain.
- [102:49]
Lisa Phillips
Mountain. Wow.
- [102:51]
Interviewer/Podcaster
I mean, what the heck? Yeah. I feel like if I. I feel like a lawyer. I didn't even work with that.
- [102:56]
Lisa Phillips
Why did they even. Why did they even print that?
- [103:01]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Okay, so he says that the Dybbuk saying more. What next? He went too fast and got into trouble in 1979. He turned operations over to some other dude and did the buying himself. He was always competitive, so the division drives him.
- [103:16]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [103:17]
Interviewer/Podcaster
For more, more, more, more. Money, money, money.
- [103:20]
Lisa Phillips
Wow.
- [103:20]
Interviewer/Podcaster
That's the other thing with these people, Lisa. It's clear they, like, when people talk about Satanism in this stuff, it's. It manifests not just quite literally through like, maybe doing some weird ritual and bowing before a ball or, you know, the devil, but it manifests in worshiping things and worshiping materialism and worshiping things that you put above the value of humans.
- [103:46]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [103:47]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Now, I do have to say this to be fair, just, like, journalistically, Nancy Mace, who I appreciate has been really pushing some things recently to try to get this out. She did say when they released the files, obviously, they're awful, but she said that she was told to be careful with information you see related to, you know, government reports and stuff like that, that, like, from 2020 and on. And the reason she said this is valid, basically, once this case went mainstream, you know how it goes. Just like, Just like Harvey Weinstein probably abused 2,000 women, but, like, 40,000 women accused him of it because they could get in on. Schizophrenic neighbor could say that that happened.
- [104:36]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [104:36]
Interviewer/Podcaster
So I will say I have read, like, some, because the FBI, obviously, they fucked up their job a ton here. Their job is to just review any lead that comes in. So you will see dead serious, straight emails of just FBI person one to FBI person two saying, like, all right, witness claims that blank, blank, blank. And there's no, like, opinion on it. They're just reporting to their colleague what they said.
- [104:58]
Lisa Phillips
But there's quite a few emails, I mean, hundreds of them that are way before 2020.
- [105:03]
Interviewer/Podcaster
That's correct. That's correct. I'm just saying for this one right here where it's stated, this is a December 2021. So I have to say that, yeah,
- [105:11]
Lisa Phillips
I'm aware of that. I mean, I, I, you know, I'm the person. Well, a lot of the survivors are that came forward. You know, other victims come forward and they speak to us about the, you know, their assaults and things like that. And many, many girls or women. I don't know if there's this thing of, you know, Epstein survivors being like the rock stars, these Days, you know, people looking up to them. But quite a few have come forward saying they're survivors and then you get into those stories and then you realize I've never even met them.
- [105:42]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Right.
- [105:43]
Lisa Phillips
You know, so I'm aware of that.
- [105:46]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Remember the 911 lady who, who like ran the victim's fund and claimed she was there and she literally lived in Spain at the time and was caught years later.
- [105:55]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. It's ridiculous.
- [105:56]
Interviewer/Podcaster
It's unfortunate because it hurts the real victim.
- [105:58]
Lisa Phillips
No, exactly. I, I agree.
- [106:00]
Interviewer/Podcaster
You know. Yeah, but that's, you know, as you said, there's many emails prior to 2020 between these people where they're talking in code about stuff and you can't even like, like rule out the stuff that it's, it's just like. It's nuts to me.
- [106:16]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, it's nuts.
- [106:17]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Now when, when, when, when he died, obviously you said this all kind of came forward. What was your first thought when he died? You're like, did you think there's no way this guy un alived himself? Or do you think it's possible that he did?
- [106:31]
Lisa Phillips
I mean the day that I found out was pretty traumatic. I just focus on the fact that he was dead. It wasn't until a few months later I started speaking to other survivors and started like thinking about the story and started doing some documentaries and things like that. So it unfolded over time. I'm trying to think of your question. I think when I really thought about it, there was no doubt in my mind that he was probably murdered and not taken his own life. I never thought he took his own life. I just don't think just knowing the type of person that he was, that was something that he would do. I feel like he had so much on so many people that he wouldn't have a reason to and he would have gotten off on it in some way somehow. Right. Technicality or something. They would have made something up for him to get a. Because I think that he was necessary and needed by. For whatever reason he was there. So I don't think they would have. I don't know. So many people say nowadays that he's alive. Like I, so many people say that I, I don't even think it's true cuz it's only because I hope it's not true. The only reason why I spoke out was because of. Because he had died. I think a lot of survivors are in fear if he really is alive. Not that he can really do anything now, but you never know. I think there's just a lot of Fear that comes with this man and just, you know, being in the public eye and speaking out about it just because there's just so many layers of it. So I don't know. But I definitely don't think that he committed suicide.
- [108:22]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah, I, I've always. I agree. And I've always thought he is in fact dead. And as of right now, I still think that.
- [108:30]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [108:31]
Interviewer/Podcaster
But once again, it's like after all the crazy we're seeing, I have to say it's on the table that maybe he's not. I, I had a guy, Candace Gibson, in here who became friends with a couple chefs that worked on the cooking team afterwards.
- [108:45]
Lisa Phillips
Oh yeah? Yeah.
- [108:46]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And they think he's a lie life. Why they said, they said there's no. Similar to the logic you said. There's like, they said a. There's no way he would have, he would have offed himself because he was too narcissistic.
- [108:58]
Lisa Phillips
We know that.
- [108:58]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And he always thought he could get out of it.
- [109:00]
Lisa Phillips
But why do we think he's alive?
- [109:01]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Because they believed. I Kenis was like unclear on some of it, but essentially like they believed he had too much power and too much influence over too many very important people to not have some sort of out switch.
- [109:19]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, yeah, that's what I would have thought that he always thought that he was going to get away with it so. And be protected. That's the reason why he was able to do all that he was doing. But then again, if he was dead, they already have everything. I mean, someone has those videos from all of his homes that saw, saw everyone who went in and went out and who went into what door and out of what door. So almost like what do they need him for when they have everything that he could possibly tell them I would think is there. Right. So I don't know. That's a hard one.
- [109:57]
Interviewer/Podcaster
What if you look at all these people who are like a part of the COVID up now and trying to not release this, there's still, as of the time you and I are talking, there's still two and a half million documents that they say they're never going to release. Forget redacted. They're just never going to release them.
- [110:11]
Lisa Phillips
You know, if they're never going to release three more million documents, what the heck is on them?
- [110:18]
Interviewer/Podcaster
That's, that's what I'm saying.
- [110:19]
Lisa Phillips
How can it be any darker, more disturbing than what we've already seen? Because that's what it means when they say we're not going to release it. There's A reason. There's like nothing on it. We're not going to release them because there's nothing on it. Obviously it's the worst stuff on it.
- [110:41]
Interviewer/Podcaster
It's so hard to think about because like, look at the JFK thing, right? Just with this example, you'll see where I'm going with this. If you could point to, and I think again, like the government killed the guy. There were high level people at the Pentagon and CIA who did it. I don't know, let's say there's a hundred thousand people working at those two places at the time. Realistically 90, 900. And some of them had no idea that was going to happen that day. But they work at the Pentagon or CIA or these places that have a name on the door where very high level people made the decision under the jurisdiction of those organizations to do it. If the American people ever got full proof of that and found out those places are shuttered the next day. And the reality is for all the horrible that we know organizations like that do, I mean it's been well documented on this podcast, the horrible CIA does. There's. There are objectively also people there who are actually doing their job and you know, stopping a terrorist attack.
- [111:49]
Lisa Phillips
Yes, of course, exactly. That's the same thing, I think.
- [111:51]
Interviewer/Podcaster
So what I'm saying is the weird thing is with something now bringing back to the Epstein case, if it were powerful enough, people that like the whole house of cards came down, if all the information came out at once and then like the, the country ceased to exist, if I'm sitting on the other side and I know that that's what's going to happen if the information comes out, I can't even imagine having that decision because you are covering up the most vile crimes known to man.
- [112:25]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I don't know when it comes to cases like this, I just try to look at the facts. So let's say, let's say he did commit suicide, why then everything would have just been fine the way everything, the, the guard would have been awake, that there wouldn't be missing tape, that everything would just, would just be in place. Right, but then why are there so many things out of place, place that didn't function right or why are there so many discrepancies around just a suicide if he really did take his life.
- [112:58]
Interviewer/Podcaster
That's right.
- [112:59]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [113:00]
Interviewer/Podcaster
It's very strange.
- [113:01]
Lisa Phillips
I mean this all you have to really look at. If it was just so cut and dry, everything would be in place like it was a normal day. But why on that day, perfectly. Everything just didn't go right. Why?
- [113:16]
Interviewer/Podcaster
You see the document in the files where they had the date the day before?
- [113:20]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. Why is there so many weird things make so many stupid mistakes?
- [113:25]
Interviewer/Podcaster
You know, the other thing that's so strange about this case is it reveals how small the elite circles really are. Everyone knows everyone. You can trace a guy in 1974 to someone in power. Now who's. Who was his. That guy's friend? Golf buddy.
- [113:42]
Lisa Phillips
Oh, yeah. Well, because when you make a certain amount of money when you're in that bracket, you only hang around those people.
- [113:47]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yes.
- [113:48]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. And there's a much smaller amount of people.
- [113:50]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah.
- [113:51]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [113:51]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Did you. When you would be in. In the rooms, like, where you go in there and it's all these old weird dudes, was there a feeling of like, there's them and they look at us as like, oh, yeah, they're here, but they're not. They're not with us. They're just here at our pleasure.
- [114:10]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. I mean, of course, they don't really want to get to know you.
- [114:12]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Right.
- [114:12]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. It's almost just kind of weird that you're even there.
- [114:15]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Right.
- [114:15]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [114:16]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Now, what do you think of the whole Ghislaine thing going on? Because now she just pled the fifth or whatever, which I guess is her constitutional right to do, but she's been sent to a minimum security prison.
- [114:26]
Lisa Phillips
If that was even her.
- [114:28]
Interviewer/Podcaster
If that was even look anything like her. The nose was different.
- [114:31]
Lisa Phillips
That was his whole face. It was so weird. Like, that really freaked me out.
- [114:38]
D
Right.
- [114:38]
Lisa Phillips
First time I saw, like, where is Galen? Where does she go? That is not her. They put like a fake Glenn in there to answer the questions. You know, this whole thing gets like, weirder and weirder.
- [114:50]
Interviewer/Podcaster
It gets weirder and weird.
- [114:52]
Lisa Phillips
Where did they take her? I mean, I really do hope that's her, but if they took her out of there, she's like, this is just the weirdest. This. We live. We live like in the Twilight Zone. Right. It's like, you can't make this up.
- [115:10]
Interviewer/Podcaster
All. All the things that, like I said, used to be like, come on, now it's like, that's on the table. And I'm trying, like, in my.
- [115:19]
Lisa Phillips
These things were. Were told years and years ago.
- [115:22]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah. Yeah.
- [115:22]
Lisa Phillips
You know, people just died once they talked about it.
- [115:25]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yep.
- [115:25]
Lisa Phillips
You know, now it was like, you can't kill everybody now. Now it's all out there, you know?
- [115:30]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah. It's hard, like, to do it journalistically too, because you're like, you want to Stick to all the facts. And then you see a lot of code words and stuff and you're like, we don't have full facts. But man, if that were a mob case, that looks. You look guilty.
- [115:46]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [115:46]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Right.
- [115:47]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [115:48]
Interviewer/Podcaster
And how about the fact that all these people.
- [115:51]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [115:52]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Feel so comfortable in their position in society that they openly send all this stuff on email, open source email to each other?
- [116:04]
Lisa Phillips
Well, they never thought anyone was going to look at those emails. They never thought anyone's ever going to see those emails. They never thought they were ever going to release it, those files.
- [116:14]
Interviewer/Podcaster
All right, let me go one step farther with you, though. I don't know if this changes your opinion, but we're talking about billionaires and stuff. What happens with billionaires? A lot. They get sued.
- [116:24]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah.
- [116:25]
Interviewer/Podcaster
What happens in civil courts when you get sued? You have discovery, which means your emails are discoverable.
- [116:31]
Lisa Phillips
I don't think they ever thought Epstein's were going to be. There's no friggin way they're writing that type of stuff.
- [116:37]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah.
- [116:37]
Lisa Phillips
Thinking it's ever gonna be out there. I mean, Bill Gates never thought any of that stuff. Bill Gates never thought any of that stuff was ever going to be out there.
- [116:44]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Right.
- [116:44]
Lisa Phillips
There's no way. I'm sure they fought like tooth and nail to make sure those didn't come out, but yeah, some of it's out now. Well, it's just the only thing that's happening to these men is they're being embarrassed in society, that's all. People get to laugh about it for a little while and they get to go on with their lives.
- [117:05]
Interviewer/Podcaster
I hope not. I hope some of them really do see justice with this.
- [117:12]
Lisa Phillips
Well, that's up to our Justice Department, isn't it?
- [117:14]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yes, it is.
- [117:15]
Lisa Phillips
Whether they want to do something about it or not.
- [117:17]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Not. It is.
- [117:17]
Lisa Phillips
I mean, they have, they have total capability of doing so. They have everything in front of them to make the right decision and. And to, you know, go after them civilly or criminally.
- [117:29]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Absolutely.
- [117:29]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. Let's see what happens. Let's see what unfolds.
- [117:34]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Well, I really appreciate you not only going through everything, but also being brave enough to speak out about this for so many years now and represent, not, just, as you said, the voices for this case who can't speak out or might even be dead and really can't speak out, but also the voices for people around the world in other cases who feel pressured to not be able to say anything. It's. It's a really important example you're setting every day and, and I thank you. I hope you can see the can't change what happened to you, but, you know, the positive force you're now using on the other side of it to make some change. I think it's really, really amazing.
- [118:13]
Lisa Phillips
Oh, that's awesome. Thank you for saying that. I do see the difference now and being there and doing this, and I never thought. If you told me a year ago that I was going to be at Capitol Hill and at the State of the Union, like, all these things, I would never have believed you. But it's so important, and I can't stop now. And I look forward to season two of my podcast where I can have more survivors on and. And have them tell those stories and have them have their moments as well.
- [118:40]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Yeah, we gotta say we gotta get Sarah on there.
- [118:42]
Lisa Phillips
That's what we all need. We need. We need those moments, you know, that make us feel like we have some justice.
- [118:47]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Absolutely. All right, well, Lisa, thank you so much, and I. I wish you and all the victims all the best, and hopefully you actually see some justice for all the things that happen here.
- [118:59]
Lisa Phillips
Yeah. Thank you. All right, appreciate that.
- [119:02]
Interviewer/Podcaster
Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Me. Peace. What's up, guys? Thanks so much for watching the video. If you have not subscribed, please hit that subscribe button before you leave. As well as leaving a like on the video. It's a huge, huge help. You can join my patreon via the link in the description and you can also join my clipping community via the Discord link down below. See you for the next episode.