← Julian Dorey Podcast
Julian Dorey Podcast
#415 - "PSYCHIC Program!" - Neuroscientist on Remote Viewing, STARGATE & Telepathy | Julia Mossbridge
03:26:45
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- [00:12]
A
Julia, I don't even know what to refer to you as because your resume is so long with so many different things. Like, what do you call yourself? When someone says, what do you do for a living?
- [00:21]
B
I usually sigh deeply. And then what I have to figure out, like, how much I want to get into a conversation with this person. So if I really, really don't, I'll be like, oh, I'm a scientist. Boom. And then hopefully, like, I'm gone before they ask, well, what do you study?
- [00:39]
A
Well, luckily today we have a few hours, so you can. I can be one of the people that you extrapolate upon that with. So besides, like, being just a general scientist, you know, we'll get into all the different things today. You don't have to go through all of it right now, but just, I guess at the top. 30,000 foot view. How are you feeling your week these days?
- [00:58]
B
Oh, okay. I always have about five or six projects at once. That would mostly take all my time. And I've been accused of having body doubles and such. But I think what it is is I do most of my work in my sleep so that during the day I kind of, like, go with the flow and just do the thing and then I make all the decisions at night. So anyway, I say that as a preamble to. Because when I tell you kind of how I film my week, it's going to be a little irritating. Here we go.
- [01:34]
A
That's just a perfect way of putting it. I'm not surprised.
- [01:36]
B
Okay, so I have a new startup. It's called American Electrodynamics. We're in stealth mode. So that's just a thing. So I'm the chief science officer and president of that.
- [01:46]
A
Very cool.
- [01:47]
B
And then I have a nonprofit that I founded in 2019 called TILT, the Institute for Love and Time. We are just changing our name to Applied Love Labs, which I'm super excited. And by the time this airs, the name change will be complete. So that's about right. Now I work in the workshop or the lab, which is like the innovation lab for this nonprofit. We're trying to create technology that helps people feel unconditional love, which is like. We're going to talk about that, I hope, because.
- [02:16]
A
Oh, definitely. I'm already intrigued this year.
- [02:18]
B
Okay. Yeah. It's a powerful, powerful motivational healing experience for people to feel and it can help make you more psychic. So there's that. And then I do. So that's fun. And then I. I am working on a. Also stealth mode comedy TV series. Can't talk about that but fun related to intelligence community stuff. Oh, I've all can't talk about that but I am going to be talking at a conference coming up in Montana between the intelligence community and Hollywood, so. So that's super interesting.
- [02:59]
A
Oh I could just see the comments buzzing right now.
- [03:05]
B
I volunteer to provide some kind of insight from the outside of the intelligence community. So I know a lot of people in the intelligence community who are really actually working hard to do good things and.
- [03:19]
A
Oh, they exist.
- [03:20]
B
No, there's like three of them. There's many also who have left. So I know a lot of people also who have left but. So every once in a while I'll give a talk about how the brain works related to how people function or what would be the best way to use AI to do analysis in intelligence work or something like that.
- [03:43]
A
Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you.
- [03:51]
B
So that's another thing that I do. I interface a lot with the fringe communities and I give talks related to exceptional human performance. And those are both fringe communities in sort of the outside world and fringe communities in the intelligence community and fringe communities in academia. So all these, there's fringes everywhere and they kind of come together in this space of UFOs, UAP, psionics, which is another, which is a recent term for psi capacities. I call it all exceptional human performance. I've been studying it for 20 years and, and it's very exciting and has a lot to do with human potential. So that's another thing that I do and I work with the telepathy tapes people. Kai Dickens introduced me independently. So like I'm being. Just to be clear, I'm being funded. Our project is being funded through different folks, but introduced me to a bunch of folks working on how to understand the minds of non speaking autistic people. So for the last year I've been really looking into that especially vis a vis exceptional human performance and how to protect autistic non speakers from people wanting to exploit their communication.
- [05:02]
A
For sure.
- [05:03]
B
And so all those things are things that I would love to talk about.
- [05:05]
A
Well that's we. We got our work cut out for us. You might have to come back after this one.
- [05:10]
B
For sure, I'm open to it.
- [05:11]
A
I don't know if we'll get to all that, but it's amazing stuff. One quick point before we go through the beginning of that with the telepathy tapes is I gotta say, that one really caught me off guard when I heard what that was. I was like, come on. And then I listen. I had a really long car ride. This is over a year ago. And I listened to it and I was like, you know, there's a. There, there. I don't know if it's fully what they're saying, but it's not. There's. It's not nothing. There is something. Something extraordinary there. And then I had Scott Sherwood in here, whose daughter Lily was one of the children who was a part of the Telepathy tapes. And like, talking with him a bunch off camera and then on camera as well. In episode 280, you know, he.
- [05:59]
B
You.
- [05:59]
A
You could. You could see like, as a father like him trying to understand this as well and being open to it. It was like kind of a beautiful thing to see. But it sounds like we have only just scratched the surface there. Tip of the iceberg.
- [06:13]
B
Yeah. So that's right. Your experience that you had matches a bunch of scientist friends and collaborators of mine who. Some of whom were absolutely skeptical, some of whom, I mean, initially, before listening to the show, some of whom were sort of on the fence, some of whom study this stuff.
- [06:31]
A
Right.
- [06:32]
B
And all of us listen to this and we were like, well, someone did a really good job of faking all this. Or it's real and it felt very real. And. And there's all sorts of arguments against it. Right. I mean, in other words, you have to do actual science, and a podcast isn't actual science. And Kai Dickens knows that.
- [06:58]
A
That's right.
- [06:59]
B
I mean. I mean, entertainment is about covering what's going on in these other worlds that aren't in it. Not everything happens in the world of entertain. So, you know, people have accused Kai and other people of, well, why didn't you do this controller? Why didn't you do that rigorous thing? And it's like, well, because we're a podcast. We're not a bunch of scientists. So that's actually why Kai wanted scientists to study this stuff, which I really respect. Right. And so she had Diane Powell come on and talk about her stuff. And, you know, I've known Diane for years, and she and I are on good terms. We don't work together much. Cause we have very different approaches. But we really, you know, we get a lot from each other.
- [07:38]
A
That's cool. How do you have different approaches? Like, what do you mean when you say that?
- [07:41]
B
Well, you know, as you saw in Telepathy tapes, if you saw any of the. The reels. But Also, even talking about.
- [07:48]
A
I saw some clips of that, but I listened to the. It was all.
- [07:51]
B
Pretty much all editorial. Yeah, I usually do that, too, so. So she tends to work with. All right, so in the. In cognitive. So my background's in cognitive neuroscience, although I'm trying to get people to pronounce it. Neuroscience.
- [08:05]
A
Neuroscience, yes.
- [08:06]
B
Because, you know, like the word photogr. Yeah. And then photograph. Like, photograph and photographer. When you're a kid, it's really hard to put the syllable emphasis on the wrong. Like photographer. Right. You want to say photographer because they make photographs.
- [08:21]
A
Okay, it's clicking now.
- [08:22]
B
Okay. Yeah. So a neurologist and neuroscientist.
- [08:29]
A
Neuro is so hard, though. It's like, yeah, I'm a neuro.
- [08:32]
B
Yeah. It's better just to say neuro. Right. But then what?
- [08:36]
A
So anyway, I'll title it like that. Neuro.
- [08:38]
B
Neuro.
- [08:39]
A
Yeah.
- [08:40]
B
Neuro has a lot of street cred, but. But neuroscientists learn pretty quickly.
- [08:44]
A
Feel like I bought a baggie of neuro in college, but maybe I misremembered,
- [08:47]
B
probably, but neuroscientists learn, like, in graduate school, that we don't understand most of the stuff. And that was as true back in the 90s when I was in graduate school for neuroscience as it is now.
- [08:59]
A
Isn't that funny? You go to, like, the highest institution, someone really smart like you as well, you get all the way to the graduate school, end of. And it's like the masters of the universe are teaching you, and they walk in and they're like, so basically we don't know anything. Yeah, but here's what we got.
- [09:14]
B
If they're good, if they're good teachers, the bad teachers claim all this knowledge, and then you start to drill down and ask questions, and then they're like, well, actually, yeah, but whatever, we'll figure it out, you know? So there's a lot of that, but
- [09:26]
A
can you pull the mic down just a little bit, just so I can see your face a little more? Perfect.
- [09:30]
B
Okay. Yeah.
- [09:31]
A
And then just tilt it towards you.
- [09:33]
B
There you go. Okay.
- [09:34]
A
All right, you're good now.
- [09:34]
B
Thank you. So anyway, back to what I was saying, which is that. So my background's in neuroscience. Her background's in psychiatry, I believe. And so she's coming at it from a history of working one on one with people. Right. Which is what you do as a psychiatrist. I'm coming at it from a history of doing a bunch of experiments with Psych 101 students. Right. They come into your lab, they're Trying to get credit for their course. And you have them like, follow a pointer on the screen and figure out what it means or whatever your experiment is. Right. That's like do that over and over again. And that's cognitive neuroscience. We're trying to figure out how the brain and the mind are related. So when I saw what she was doing, I thought that's totally what you would do as a psychiatrist. And it's completely valid. You would look at, for instance, you would multiply some numbers on a calculator, like big numbers, like 394 times 672. And then you would look at it and you would say, okay, person who I'm testing what's, you know, 394 times 672. And then you would look at the calculator as they're responding to see if they got it right. So that seems like a good way to do it. Sure. Right.
- [10:45]
A
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- [12:11]
B
code Julian but my background says, oh, there's all these chances for sensory leakage. And now the sensory leakage is when the information about the answer, because I'm looking at it over here as the experimenter can get over to the person who's over here who's answering, yeah, could they. Could they see, like, am I not careful about how I'm holding it? That's one simple thing. You know, is there. Is there a reflection somewhere where they could see it? Maybe they're not conscious of the. Of seeing it, but it reflects off of a portrait in the background. I mean, there's a thousand different ways, right? So I looked at this and I thought, oh, well, two things. One is I would not want to use stimuli that are just letters and numbers because I know from my work with understanding exceptional human performance that people actually do best on tasks that are much more complex. The simple tasks that are almost like forced choice, which means you only have certain numbers and letters. You have only 26 letters to choose from. You only have 10 digits counting zero. Those are actually harder because you can get very analytical with them.
- [13:16]
A
Right.
- [13:17]
B
Whereas the easier stimuli are things like, describe the video that I'm watching in the next room, and it could be any video in the world.
- [13:27]
A
So.
- [13:28]
B
And I know that's counterintuitive, but that's sort of. It's like backwards of what you would expect.
- [13:33]
A
One feels, you know, I might be oversimplifying this, but one feels more like a laundry list task. And the other one feels more like painting a picture.
- [13:41]
B
Right. And so that's differentiates a little bit about the left and right hemispheres. The way we can sort of think of them. It's not particularly anatomically correct, but there's something to it in that the left hemisphere has to do with understanding these analytical things, like breaking things down into bits and understanding them. Like you might break words down into letters, but also has to do with speaking. And we're working with students who have trouble speaking. So there's probably something going on in the left hemisphere that is different from people who don't have trouble speaking at their same age. And so at the same time, she was getting 100% correct performance. So that person really would answer the question about the two difficult to multiply numbers, or they really would know what passage of the book that she was looking at over here. Right. And so part of my mindset that's amazing. And Wonderful and exciting. And part of my mind said, maybe it's 100% because unconsciously they're getting a different kind of information. Right. And she knows that. She's talked to me about it. We've both talked about it, but her background is the way she would do it. So I said, well, I'm going to do it the way I would do it. And that's when I set out with my amazing team. So Dr. Jeff Tarrant, Maria Welch, Natalia Meehan, Damon Abraham. I even enlisted my son, Joseph Mossbridge, Polly Washburn, a bunch of people to make software so we could have one person in one room and someone's watching a video in the other room, and the person who's in the receiving room. This is a telepathy experiment, right? It's like, we'll call it. The receiving room has no cell phone access or any other kind of access to this other room. And it's far enough away that they can't hear what the video is. And then their job is to report on the video.
- [15:27]
A
Is there anything, like, if you're dealing with technology guessing, though, right? Like, if you're guessing a video which is obviously playing through a screen. This is above my pay grade to kind of ask us.
- [15:38]
B
No, just ask him.
- [15:39]
A
But, like, is there anything from a similar parallel technology to like, Bluetooth signaling or something like that that could potentially be picked up on by a gifted brain in the other.
- [15:52]
B
Like, it. Like, yeah, maybe. I mean. So do you mean, like, could the brain pick up on sort of the way radio waves essentially?
- [15:58]
A
Exactly, yeah.
- [15:59]
B
So one of the theories about consciousness is like the radio theory of consciousness, where the brain is just like a radio it's receiving and consciousness is sort of being beamed at it. But, like, a question is, from where? Or I think I like to ask, from when?
- [16:14]
A
From when?
- [16:15]
B
Because I think that's an interesting thing.
- [16:18]
A
You just. You creating these rabbit holes. I like it. You're going to work. Okay.
- [16:23]
B
Yeah, I'd like it to. Um. So, yeah, I. That could be. That could be happening. I actually think there's two different kinds of telepathy. I think there's proximity telepathy, which is. Honestly, after seeing some of the controls that Kai and her. Her folks did with, like, headphones and with, you know, blinders between people and stuff, and they were still able to do this, I start to think, okay, maybe there's proximity telepathy that happens right here, and that could be more analytical, et cetera. And maybe there's distance and we know there's distance telepathy distance, telepathy. That's like I described. One person's in one room, one person thousands of miles away. In fact, the best, most impressive hit we had in our experimental series was thousands of miles away. We were doing it on Zoom. I was on Zoom in Virginia. Jeff Tarrant was on Zoom in Oregon, and the student was working with Maria Welch in Illinois. And so the software randomly picked one of the videos. So once it's picked a video, never shows it again. So these are like 5 to 10 seconds videos. So, like, once it's shown, we're done. And so Jeff is watching the video over there because the student has said he would like to receive from Jeff that they get to choose who they want to receive from. Right. And so I also know what the video is. So I'm also sort of trying to send whatever that means. Right, we can talk about that. And then both of us have our zoom cameras and zoom microphones off. So we're basically using Zoom to record the student in Illinois. Right. And the student calls like before. So Maria's Right now, her job was the. She's a speech and language pathologist who regulates the students so that they can actually use a letter board or a keyboard.
- [18:13]
A
Okay.
- [18:13]
B
In this case, I think he was using a letter board, and then he was typing after the letterboard. He would type it himself on a keyboard. So he's going towards independence. In any case, Maria's sitting there helping him. She doesn't know what the video is. Obviously, if she knows, then someone in the room knows, and that's not okay. Right?
- [18:30]
A
There's no sensory leakage here.
- [18:32]
B
There's no sensory leakage. Right. And we're thousands of miles away. Okay. So we had this protocol where we would give multiple choice, because this is when I was still scared that they weren't telepathic, where you would give multiple choice. Like, is this video about X, Y, or Z? The problem is the software wasn't working. So the software would normally show the multiple choice to Maria. It wasn't working. So I manually sent the multiple choice to Maria over Zoom Chat so she could read it there. But I didn't send it to Maria. I sent it to Jeff in Oregon because I had a little chat, private chat going with him. So I said, here are the questions. What is the video about? And he said, I'm not Maria. And I was like, oh, crap. Meanwhile, while I'm getting ready to send the multiple choice to Maria, the student answers the question.
- [19:23]
A
So without.
- [19:24]
B
Without the multiple choice, he just. He. He just Says, so. So the video is about this artistic rendering of the sky. It looked almost like someone, some artists took northern lights and made it more artistic or something with the trees in the background.
- [19:40]
A
And did they describe it?
- [19:42]
B
So the student says, the video is about art in the sky. Like so they're very concise because they have to put each letter on the
- [19:51]
A
board and they're non verbal.
- [19:53]
B
Yeah, yeah. So they're, they're. And then she asks, okay, because she doesn't know what's true, right? And we're over here going, what the. She doesn't have a multiple choice. And so she asks, okay, what else? So the next question is, what else? What else do you learn from the video? And he says, it's good for us to. It's good for us meaning non speakers to see weather patterns because they're so beautiful. And so it's like he. This is, this is what the pattern that we keep seeing with the science is that they take off on whatever it is they're receiving. It's not a big deal to them, and they immediately associate it with something else. Like you're having a conversation, except we can't hear one part of the conversation and they can. And then they're just going to say the next thing. And so it's really, it turns out to be really hard to pin down because it's like, what if you were listening to one half of a conversation and you were trying to prove that that person heard what the other one said, but they're not going to repeat what the other one said because that's rude. The other person just said it. Right? So it's like if telepathy really exists, it would be like that, you know,
- [20:55]
A
and this is, this is where because I really open my mind after listening telepathy tapes to ask myself questions that maybe I had never thought to ask because we're, you know, you're born into this world, society molds you. They tell you what's real, what's not, what's impossible, what is. Yeah, right. And I've been a bit of a delusional thinker myself, but that delusion hasn't included me thinking I could get out of this room and like go fly and go to the moon or something like that with my own hands, obviously. I think what happens though is a lot of things get grouped into that type of category and telepathy certainly could be one of them. And yet one of the things I was thinking about is I started to think about some of the science that I've learned about before that's like accepted that people do know. And one of the things that came to mind was how sometimes when you'll lock eyes with a woman that you're, that you're really infatuated with. And you guys kind of like that time stop thing where it doesn't really stop, but it feels like it does.
- [21:55]
B
It's really long.
- [21:56]
A
It's, it's really long because after I forget it off the top of my head now, but after a certain number of seconds, your heart beats. Actually if there's continuity there, they synchronize. And I said to myself, I said, how is that not some form of telepathy? Because the internal organs of your body that don't have eyes and don't see anything.
- [22:21]
B
Yeah.
- [22:21]
A
Suddenly, no, that's the beat that they're giving off. So I'm gonna. And boom, here you are. And it can totally change the way your brain is now wired towards. Now you have an infatuation.
- [22:35]
B
Oh, such good beatboxing.
- [22:37]
A
Thank you. Yeah, so I worked on that right before I saw the banjo. I was like, yo, I gotta step my game.
- [22:41]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, get it going. So it could not be telepathy. So part of my job is to always see things from the point of view of people who think that this stuff isn't real. Even though we know, even before telepathy tapes, we know this is real. In fact, in 1980s you could find people writing about non speaking autistic people and how they might be psychic. I mean, so this, this is a long time coming. But let's assume that you think it's all bs. One way to explain the heartbeat thing is, you know, you can use a camera and point it at someone and you can get their heartbeat from the very subtle changes of red in their skin. In fact, some folks at MIT Media Lab did this years ago. And so, yeah, so you can monitor someone's heart rhythms from across the room or you can watch like a, you know, an influencer or you know, elite person who CIA wants to get information about, find out if they're stressed by watching their heart rhythm.
- [23:38]
A
Well, yeah, that one. Well actually now that you say it, it's like the same thing.
- [23:42]
B
It's the same thing.
- [23:43]
A
Wow.
- [23:44]
B
It's all the same thing. And so you could subconsciously have that capacity. We have so much unconscious capacity. And it also could be this non local influence which we also know is real. So it's a both. And you could be using one to help set the other. We just keep Forgetting that the world is bigger, as you said, than we're taught. Right. And so what are the implications if the world is bigger than we're taught? Because of course it is. Right, right. So what are the implications? Well, the biggest implication, I think, is that there are no secrets.
- [24:25]
A
I know what you mean by that, but I want to make sure it's not even bigger than what I'm thinking. What do you think I'm thinking? That, like, you're getting to. Well, we're going to be at a point where everyone can read each other's mind, or your thoughts are not private and your own, and it's just. It's something that we haven't exactly tapped into yet. Maybe technology, technologically, but it's coming. But do you mean beyond that as well? Like universally, if you will?
- [24:48]
B
I think, yeah, I think I mean beyond that. So, yeah, so I. I feel. So I just wrote this book. Can I tell you about the book? Or is that irritating? Please. No, I'm not. Good.
- [24:59]
A
You can say whatever you want. This is so easy. Like this is just a conversation.
- [25:03]
B
Okay. Okay. All right. So I just wrote this book called have a Nice Disclosure. And one of the things.
- [25:07]
A
Oh, the yellow one.
- [25:08]
B
The yellow one with the alien on
- [25:09]
A
the COVID Yeah, I like that cover. That was cool.
- [25:11]
B
My husband drew that.
- [25:12]
A
Very cool.
- [25:12]
B
Yeah. Yeah. He wanted to come today. He says hi, but.
- [25:15]
A
Oh, well, hello.
- [25:16]
B
Oh, you're pulling it up. There it is.
- [25:17]
A
Mr. Mossbridge.
- [25:18]
B
His actual, actual name is Brooks Palmer.
- [25:21]
A
Okay. Hello, Brooks Palmer. Great cover.
- [25:23]
B
Yeah, There it is. Okay, so in that book, I write a lot about this and. And I guess I bring it up because I think I put it best in the book and I'm hoping I can express it in a useful way here. But it's this idea that, you know, we're living in this. What we, we have this experience of living in this 3D reality. Maybe 4D if you include time. Right. Maybe there's multiple dimensions of time. Whatever dimensions.
- [25:47]
A
I do want to ask you about that later.
- [25:48]
B
Yeah, so whatever. I'm really bad with this mic. I keep hitting it. But whatever you want to call this experience that we're having in our conscious waking, daily, you know, non drugged state. Right. So in that state we have this experience of I only have access to information that I get through my sense organs, and you only have access to information you get through your sense organs. And it's like we're always trying to get information from the outside, just like I just described about the CIA thing or whatever. The heartbeat Media Lab people, it's get what information can we get about that person over there from the outside? Because the assumption is there's no way to get any information about the inside of that person. By inside, I don't mean their guts. I mean by inside, I mean their thoughts, their. Their soul, their. Their essence, right? If you could get that information about someone's guts, except there's like their spiritual guts, their soul, their essence, then, like, what are we doing? Like, then. Then it's easy to determine someone's motivation. We don't have to guess, you know, like Elon, Musk and Epstein. Like, we would know, right, what the answer to that is. We don't have to look at emails, right? And the reason why I'm saying it's deeper than just future technology is I think there does exist. I think the whole. It's almost like the radio theory of consciousness. All of what is happening and that, all of what we're experienced. I don't know why I'm doing this. I guess it's because it's like it's rising up from some information substrate. It's like the foundation is information. And this is almost like ones and zeros, right, Come up and they form this. And that doesn't mean that this isn't real. So I'm not into like, oh, simulation theory. None of this is real. Does you no good. This is what we're experiencing. So this is as real as it can get. This is what we're experiencing, but it's coming from this informational substrate that has no space and no time. So it's bigger than space and time and it builds space and time and the things that happen in space and time. And so if you, when, when you talk with non speakers about how they're getting their information, they sometimes have opinions. Who knows if they're correct, but the feeling you get is that nothing is off limits. It's like the information's all there and they're just picking it up as intention guides them. Right? And that's the same way when I work with remote viewers, and in fact, when I do remote viewing that remote viewers and myself experience getting that information, which is just the intention guides you and then the information that comes to you, even though it's a jumbled mass of information that's like, way too big for you to navigate at all consciously.
- [28:40]
A
All right, I want to come back to remote viewing in one second, but I don't want to lose the point made right before that because I got a lot of questions on Remote viewing. But when you're talking about where we're at now with like the zeros and ones and the bits and we have to pick it up because we don't have the ability, you know, to be able to actually know everyone's motivations at all times. This is one of those, like, meaning of life things I always think about in the sense that I, like most normal people, hate evil. I think. I think it's bad. A world without evil would be a lot better. Right. Yet in reality, I wouldn't know how Amazing a beautiful 85 degree sunny day feels like.
- [29:23]
B
Yes.
- [29:24]
A
If I didn't know what a 4 degree with a minus 15 degree wind chill. This is hitting close to home right now. Day felt like outside when I'm walking right on the Hudson River. Same thing with good and evil. And that is not an argument to say, therefore we must have evil in the world. Let's get a bunch of Epstein's and stuff like that. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying the fact that the world has these awful events, but then these remarkable triumphs. Yeah, the triumphs don't happen without the awful events. It's not to say, hey, I'm happy that happens, but it's like, what would life be if you didn't have that? And so I'm. What I'm bringing that back to is if life were. We knew all the answers to the test before we ever even had it, and there was no human discernment or ability to problem solve or think things out because it's already automated for us, then what the fuck is the meaning of.
- [30:14]
B
There's no meaning. Contrast makes meaning, right? Yes. Right. So that's kind of what we're doing here. I think we're making meaning from the ones and zeros. And that's really valid.
- [30:29]
A
Yes.
- [30:29]
B
And part of that meaning is a struggle to. I mean, as you say for most. Let's just say for most non sociopaths, part of that meaning is a struggle to move towards the good. And that feels to us. There's all sorts of psychological research on this, but that feels to us joyful to even just try to move towards the good. That's called self transcendence. And it's a powerful motivational state. And it doesn't require you to be even well fed or wealthy or living in a safe place for you to feel it. So in terms of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, Maslow, just before he died, recognized, oh my God, the biggest need is self transcendence. And it can reach down and pull you up from anywhere. You don't have to like build it.
- [31:17]
A
Can we pull up Maslow's hierarchy so people can see that deep? Yeah, so he changed. He kind of changed opinion.
- [31:23]
B
So pull that up and it'll show you. The top one will be self actualization. When you first.
- [31:27]
A
It's like the late 60s or something like that.
- [31:29]
B
Yeah, see, self actualization is on the top. That's always the standard now. Now go to Mossbridge, QAnon, Wall Street.
- [31:39]
A
Moss. What a. What a fucking search that is.
- [31:42]
B
Sorry. No one ever has ever read this article because I. I named it by this horrible way. Yes, scroll down. And then I made this figure. Do you have to be a medium member? Did I make it? I thought I made it free.
- [31:54]
A
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- [33:02]
B
Anyway, just before he dies in 1969, he sort of goes, wait a minute. There's this experience that people need to have which is joining something larger, working towards the good.
- [33:12]
A
And that's self transcendence.
- [33:14]
B
And that's self transcendence. And he says, but it's different than the other ones. You don't have to like feel safe to be like, like generally. He says if you want to get self actualized, you have to feel safe first. You have to have your basic needs met, your relational needs. Met with self transcendence. It acts differently. It can kind of reach you up, reach and pull you up from anywhere. And the amazing thing is, oh, there it is on the left. Do you see? I just took that same triangle and then I put self transcendence along it because it behaves differently.
- [33:42]
A
So if you don't mind, Julia, can you just explain the difference between self actualization and self transcendence, just so we can.
- [33:49]
B
So this. Yeah. The standard thing is to think, okay, I need my physiological needs met. I need to have food, water. Right. And next is I need my safety needs met. I need to have, like a home or some kind of place where I can feel safe sometimes anyway, so that then later I could have an experience of love and belonging. Right.
- [34:09]
A
Wow, that's third on his.
- [34:11]
B
I know. And then if I have love and belonging, then I can feel some kind of esteem, like, maybe I'm okay in the world. And then the. The peak used to be before he realized this was self actualization, which is, not only do I feel okay, but like I'm making a difference in the. In the world. But it's kind of egoic. It's a little bit like, look how egoic. Focused on the ego. Yeah. It's a little bit like, look how awesome I am. I'm the big hero of my life. Right. Self transcendence says, you know, I'm going to reach down, pull you up, and have you experienced that? You're not the big hero of your life. You're like a little piece of this puzzle, and you're joining together with other people and other forces to do something good.
- [34:52]
A
You serve a greater cause.
- [34:54]
B
You serve a greater cause, and it's not really about you.
- [34:57]
A
So, like, maybe the guys after Pearl harbor, suddenly the whole country gets drafted into World War II, and so many went, like, thrilled to fight for good versus evil. Is that a decent example?
- [35:11]
B
Yeah. So wars. So the military figured well before other folks. And so wars that are like that, where it's like, look, we're fighting for freedom. It's very clear. We're fighting for the good. There's so much less ptsd, there's so much less struggle, because the frame of it was like, we're fighting for the good and there's some sacrifice and I don't matter as much as the whole. And then other wars where it's like, well, there's weapons of mass destruction, but they actually don't exist.
- [35:40]
A
Oh, I never thought about this.
- [35:41]
B
Yeah.
- [35:42]
A
So this is wild.
- [35:43]
B
It ends up causing more PTSD because It's like, well, we shouldn't have done that. Like that. That's not about self transcendence. It was this other thing.
- [35:52]
A
Wow, I never thought about that with what guys saw. So I, I had a really great honor almost a couple years ago now to have a couple World War II guys in here, one of whom I actually just got word yesterday, just passed away. So rest in peace to Drake Gruiser, who's an amazing guy, but like these guys saw objectively, you know, graphic awful things, and yet they both had no PTSD and are able to talk about it all these years later, as well as old men, like extremely openly and everything like that. And then I'll have a bunch of my tier one guys in here, some of whom deal with it very well.
- [36:35]
B
And these are Special Forces guys. Yeah.
- [36:37]
A
And genuinely, I think, don't have any others who do.
- [36:41]
B
Right.
- [36:41]
A
And these are guys by and large the ones I've spoken to that were fighting in Iraq and fighting in Afghanistan during the global war on terror and this whole thing. And I never thought about that angle of like the guilt of. Guilt's not the right word because they're not the ones who make the decisions to go there. But the self questioning of why are we there in the first place. Like my friend Sean Ryan is very public about his own struggles and is also now very public about looking back on Iraq and being like, what the fuck were we doing?
- [37:16]
B
Yeah, what was.
- [37:16]
A
You know, I was doing my job, but like, why was I there?
- [37:20]
B
Well, that. And that gets into moral injury. Yeah, right. Which is. So if you have a framework that's actually true and that's. And this also gets. Sorry. Too many sentences at once. But if you have a framework that's actually true and you're going to sacrifice and you can believe in the sacrifice and you witness horrible things, you can put it in the framework of what's actually true and keep it as a self transcendent experience. And you have what's called a narrative of redemption. So Don McAdams at Northwestern Studies like life satisfaction well being and narratives, and he talks about narratives of contamination.
- [37:59]
A
You said Don McAdams was his name?
- [38:01]
B
Yeah. Okay. Oh, Dan. I'm sorry. Dan McAdams Adams.
- [38:04]
A
Okay.
- [38:06]
B
Narrative of contamination is, oh, this horrible thing happened to me and I'm never gonna, like, I am now spoiled. I'm like spoiled food. I just have to be thrown in the garbage. I'm broken. And that, that devastates people. And then the narrative of redemption is the same thing could happen to someone but if they're able to tell a narrative of redemption about it, like this horrible thing happened to me, you know, and then I stood up and I said what was true. And then I feel like I survived. I'm a survivor now rather than a victim. That massive difference in well being and life satisfaction. So, I mean, I, I come by this insight honestly myself because of my, my background in a family that was really very academic. Brilliant, brilliant people.
- [39:01]
A
Where'd you grow up again? Illinois.
- [39:02]
B
Libertyville, Illinois. Okay. Yeah, yeah.
- [39:04]
A
So you had tomorrow in your blood.
- [39:07]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, in the household anyway. Not really in the blood. I mean, my dad's father was an engineer with the Air Force in Puerto Rico, and my mom's dad. I mean, my mom grew. Grew up in a really, really poor family with eight kids, and her parents both worked at a uranium facility in Denver during World War II. And so there's a lot of. We can get into the radiation contamination story.
- [39:41]
A
Do you want to take that tangent for a second?
- [39:43]
B
Okay. Okay. Yeah. So I came upon that little bit of knowledge when I was cruising the Internet trying to understand my mom's family because she doesn't know a lot about. She was separated from her family when she was about seven with her sister and her brother, and they were sent off and they didn't know if they were ever going to return. And they didn't know the people that they were talking to. And she was like, why did this happen to me? And you know, when she went back, her family said, well, she said, well, why did you guys not tell me what was going on or who these people were? And. And they said, oh, you weren't supposed to remember. And they broke out in tears. And so there's a mysterious story about my mom and the youngest people in that family about what was going on for them. Both of her parents working for the federal government Department of Energy uranium plant. She gets a full ride scholarship to University of Chicago. And she calls him up and says, well, I want to go, but I can't go because I can't afford the plane or the books or the food, so you have to pay for everything. And they're like, all right. So she goes. And then she's sort of monitored in that they're very, you know, a little bit, I think, a little bit manipulative with her around. There's a story with her that just sounds like they knew she was coming from this poor family. They knew her parents were exposed to uranium and they were going to study
- [41:13]
A
her, I think, but she Was sent away. If I'm understanding she's going to University
- [41:18]
B
of Chicago, which, you know, Oppenheimer. I mean, interesting government contractor for nuclear weapons. Okay, so she's at University of Chicago, she meets my dad. Whatever. My dad's a theoretical physicist. Ends up working for Department of Energy, I think. This is not. You could tell a conspiracy theory story about this. This could all be coincidence. I'm halfway in between, and I end up calling it an inspiracy.
- [41:45]
A
Inspiracy.
- [41:46]
B
Which is. Which is. Means that, you know what, you could go in the conspiracy theory direction, but if you take the redemptive narrative of becoming inspired by your own strength and your own capacity to. To manage all the shit that goes down in a situation like this, then you can be free. And so I don't know that I am making it up about any of it. So that's sort of why I say, look, the disclosure comes from within. Like, what can I tell that's true about me? And what's true about me is. At least that I talk about in the book is. Is that I was watched from first grade on because I was. You know, I was on all the tests and all the areas. I was well beyond, obviously. Right. Well, I don't know if it's obvious.
- [42:44]
A
It's very obvious.
- [42:45]
B
Okay.
- [42:45]
A
But anyway, in a second. Until you got a galaxy brain.
- [42:48]
B
Yeah. Well, thank you, but see, it's. It's probably not mine. It's probably, like, beamed there from the informational substrate. You see what I'm saying?
- [42:55]
A
And so if you got those gummies, pal, I need a few.
- [43:01]
B
So I think they could tell I was accessing information. Not that I look at my. Actually, my. My head is really small. Like, if you look at my head, I almost have a pin head. I. It's really small. Like, your head is bigger than mine. My brain is tiny. I've seen MRIs of my brain. Like, the. The. The little folds of my cortex are desperately trying to find some space they
- [43:21]
A
can maximize in real estate.
- [43:23]
B
Yeah. Well, all I have to say is it's not about the brain.
- [43:25]
A
Yeah.
- [43:27]
B
It's about the capacity to access this information. And so they were testing me for psychic abilities and for IQ tests. I took, like, 30 IQ tests, both in the school and outside of the school.
- [43:38]
A
How'd you do?
- [43:40]
B
Did okay.
- [43:41]
A
But I got a 700.
- [43:44]
B
But the thing is, that wasn't the point. I ended up memorizing the. I ended up studying the tests. Right. Which is what you do if you're bored and you keep getting the same test over and over again. So I started studying, like, the. This is the kind of thing they're interested in. They think intelligence is this. And we all know that intelligence is well beyond that. And so this or that.
- [44:09]
A
Can you explain that?
- [44:10]
B
Well, so they think intelligence is your capacity to learn quickly, to associate, to solve problems, to use particular vocabulary or vocabulary beyond your age or your capacity to know in your environment. These things are all related to intelligence. There's this thing called fluid intelligence, called capital G, which people are always trying to. Maybe it's working memory, maybe it's this, maybe it's that. People are always trying to pin down what that is. But I think it was Marvin Minsky who wrote this wonderful book about how there's more than 100 different kinds of intelligence. So this is just one kind of intelligence that's very analytical and somewhat synthetic. A little bit of putting things together, a lot of taking things apart and understanding them. And. Yeah, so I have a lot of that. But the other kind, they're looking at psychic abilities. So that's. That's like the right hemisphere intelligence. That's like.
- [45:06]
A
Why do you say that's right hemisphere?
- [45:09]
B
I say that it's like that's. It's two reasons. One is there's actual data. But two, that it's. It's street cred. Is right hemisphere for the following reason. Right hemisphere tends to be low verbal. So people who have strokes on left hemisphere have a hard time retaining. Being able to learn to speak again if they're massive strokes. And then when they do learn to speak again, it can be difficult and kind of almost poetic. Like emotional poetic maybe doesn't reflect what's actually going on in the room. A little bit like what non speakers sometimes say, a little bit feeling intuitive and beautiful, but not necessarily reflecting the physical reality that's going on right now kind of thing. So that feels kind of psychic. The. The evidence, the scientific evidence is there's this guy more. Morris Friedman. Morris Friedman? Yeah, I think so.
- [46:11]
A
Whereas not Milton Friedman. The economy.
- [46:14]
B
No, no. But I think that's why my brain does a little hiccup there. So he's up at Baycrest. So if you. If you Google Morris Friedman, Bay Crust in Canada. He's like the chief of neurology there or something. Anyway, he did this. He noticed that people who had. Yeah, yeah, Morris Friedman. Yeah. So I collaborate with him, but sometimes I forget his name because of Milton Friedman. There's like. There's a little.
- [46:39]
A
I do that with people.
- [46:40]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's like Too close to that. So. So he ended up noticing that he thinks that people who have left hemisphere frontal strokes, so he's in the neurology department. He's seen people all the time, are somehow more intuitive, more psychic. So he does this test where he has them, people with different types of strokes, some right frontal, some left frontal. He has them try to, with their minds, move an arrow on a screen in a particular direction just with their minds, like, not with a mouse. And the ones who can do it well are the ones who have the left frontal.
- [47:18]
A
Wait, they can move it, like, without neural chance?
- [47:21]
B
Above chance. Yeah. Right. And this is why I think sort of neuralink is. Is kind of beyond the point, is that what he's showing is that people who have this area damaged are able to do this. In other words, it suggests that this area around here, like left frontal orbital area, is involved in actually reducing our capacity to use our right hemisphere. Because if you see that, there's a lot of inhibition across the hemispheres up there. And so it's like a lot of the work of being and waking daily consciousness is shutting out that stuff. And so, yes, it exists, these capacities, and we are trained to shut it out because we got to be here, right?
- [48:05]
A
Yes. I also like that. Who. Who wrote the book about the hundred different types of intelligence?
- [48:10]
B
Marvin Minty. Look up Marvin. I think it was called Society of Mind.
- [48:14]
A
I want to read that.
- [48:15]
B
Marvin Minsky, because he talks about musical intelligence, social intelligence.
- [48:18]
A
Yep.
- [48:19]
B
And I could see a society of mind. Yeah, there you go. Marvin Minsky.
- [48:23]
A
Yeah, that's okay. So this. He wrote this back in 1986, too. That sounds so cool, because that's something that drives me nuts. People box intelligence into an A or B, and it's just like, hey, can you do this math problem or can't? Yeah. And it's like, that's. That's the beauty of this job, by the way. I talk to people from so many different backgrounds, places, fields of work, thought processes, life goal, whatever it might be, and they are all on different stratospheres. Yeah. One guy may be able to do 10,504 times 4,709. Way faster than this guy over here. But, like, this guy from. From an intuition perspective of, like, sitting across from another person can pick up things way faster than that guy then can. It's not like this. Isn't this like, SAT score of life kind of thing. There's many different levels to it. So, like, it'd be interesting. I'd love to see how he Defines these different, say, 100 boxes or something like that. Because it's almost like if you were going to score someone's intelligence, everything is a 0 to 10 across every single variable. And like, the additive of all of them, I guess, is someone's intelligence, if you will.
- [49:31]
B
Yeah. Or even. Is it. I mean, so there's.
- [49:34]
A
Exactly.
- [49:34]
B
Right.
- [49:35]
A
I mean, maybe it, maybe it isn't.
- [49:36]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I sort of think that the effort to measure intelligence is generally just misguided in the first place because of, because we have this. What, what it's not doing is looking just like you said, we have this cultural. I don't know if it's a bias or what. We have this story that says. That says these things are about intelligence and these things aren't. So even if you try to say, oh, I'm going to be all Marvin Minsky and like, be inclusive about all these different kinds of intelligence, all that ever really fell out of that after decades of people saying, yeah, that's probably true, there's other kinds of intelligence. Is the idea of an eq, that there's emotional intelligence. That's one of the types of intelligence. Like, okay, we have to talk about that. That's. That's. People decided that we should start talking about that. And it's just like, oh, God, it's just the, the progress is plodding. I mean, it's just so fucking slow. It's like, okay, so this brilliant guy comes and says there's all these different kinds of intelligence, and now maybe we can talk about EQ and that'll take 30 years. I mean, it's just, what, like, like, can we get to the point where we go, so let's stop talking about intelligence and just say there's many different kinds of people with many different human natures and we need them all.
- [50:51]
A
Yes.
- [50:52]
B
Like, we need, like, look at you. I mean, I'm looking at your mind and the way your mind works. I haven't met you before, but it seems to me you have this synthetic. You can synthesize things. You're super intuitive. You have this emotional social thing and you have this desire to learn that underlies this sort of. This capacity to bring people in and figure out where they are in this jigsaw puzzle and then move towards some kind of informative perspective, taking conversation and, wow, that's a really powerful skill. I mean, that's what. That's. Well, but that's the kind of skill that it takes to be an excellent politician. Right. Or someone.
- [51:27]
A
I don't Want to do that to be very clear, but, well, no one
- [51:30]
B
who's, who could be an excellent politician does. But that's a great point. Right.
- [51:35]
A
I knew we were going to get
- [51:36]
B
along, but anyway, I, I, I think that they were, they were sort of catching on back then. And I'm talking when I was in first grade, what was that, 1976 or 75? They were catching on that there were different kinds of intelligences. I don't know who they were. I was in a public school. My parents were not told. My dad, again, was working for Department of Energy, so like I was an easy target. And when I was in seventh grade and explicitly put into a gifted program.
- [52:09]
A
I think they're coming after you right now. Again. Shit.
- [52:12]
B
Sorry.
- [52:15]
A
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- [53:55]
B
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- [54:32]
A
And because they didn't have to at the time or.
- [54:35]
B
Well, I mean, they should have. We knew about asking for consent then, but they didn't. And my parents didn't know I was in that program until I came home and told them. And they were doing all sorts of weird stuff.
- [54:51]
A
Like what?
- [54:52]
B
Like, well, there were these weekly meetings with a counselor. I was like this perfect student. I was like, there's no reason why I needed to meet with a counselor. I was, you know, I was teaching the other students math and I was spending my recess coding. And you know, this is like in the 70s of first grade and I was the janitor.
- [55:11]
A
Yeah, sometimes I just go in the board and solve a problem.
- [55:14]
B
No, I don't know, I'm not bragging, I'm just saying, like I was bored and so I would do the. They would give me these extra things to do and I'll be like, okay, great, I don't want to go outside on. I'll do coding. Who wants to go outside and get fresh air? So anyway, I saw a counselor because they told me I should see a counselor. Well, the counselor was the counselor for the entire district, it turns out. Later I discover. And what happens is every week on Friday, I believe I go walk down the hall. I have in my mind the walk with the lockers on the right and the central office on the left. And then we get to this weird part of the building and I go in this door and then to the first door on the right is where I would have my one on one sessions. As soon as I close that door. I don't remember anything. The one on one session happens. I close the door. Now I remember. Oh, here I am. But I remember not remembering what was in the room. Like, I'm not saying, like, I'm 57 and I can't remember what happened when I was in seventh grade. That would be normal. I'm saying I remember not remembering and feeling like that was normal, like that was how that worked. And then just feeling bad, like dread. Both directions of the walk back to class, on the walk to the room.
- [56:26]
A
Dread?
- [56:27]
B
Yeah, just like dread. Like, oh, God, I have to go see this person. Sometimes I believe it was two people, a man and a woman. And sometimes I believe it was one. It was a small room.
- [56:36]
A
Did you ever discuss this with anyone after the fact?
- [56:40]
B
No, because there's a. So this is. And I'm starting to get the point where I have to have some water because this is. Gets me a little shaky.
- [56:47]
A
Take your time.
- [56:50]
B
Yeah. And it's funny because I wrote this book and I talked to people about it and stuff, but it still, like, brings me to the place. So let's see if I can get to a narrative of redemption here. But I'll tell you what happened. That was the contamination part. There's a feeling that you can get if you're in this situation where you're being. There's abuse of some kind going on where you kind of catch on that it's a secret. I mean, certainly, basically having your memory removed makes you catch on that something secret just happened in that room. Right. So, like, I'm. And. And as a person who, you know, my parents. Marriage is. Was kind of a disaster at this point. And in seventh grade, yeah, I mean, actually at that point, I was moving out of my house to go live with my friend's family because I was like, this is. This is too bad.
- [57:50]
A
You're called to do that.
- [57:51]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Like, they actually called me up after a week, and they're like, where are you? Wow. Because they caught. They figured I was with my best friend. So my home life was rough, and the one place I excelled was school. Right. And that was my whole deal. That was my identity. And so I wanted sort of the administrators and those teachers to like me, Right. Because that's what I had going for me. So, like, okay, I guess I'm gonna try to be on board with the perpetrators. I didn't think about them being then, of course, but, like, that's. The psychology of abuse is like, I have a choice that you feel like you have Speaking of contrast, you feel like you have a choice. You can be a victim or you can be a perpetrator. Well, I want to be a victim. I want to be on top of this. I'm going to be on the side of people who know what they're doing. And I know I should be quiet about this because we have some kind of project. I don't know what the project is. Right.
- [58:51]
A
This sounds. Am I wrong to say this sounds very similar to the psychology of. Of Stockholm sexual abuse victims and stuff like that?
- [59:00]
B
Yeah. And there was some of that going on for me. So. So it's like, how am I going to get over this? I'm going to have to take on this as my project too, is to victimize me. Right. I mean, the way I'm saying it now is not the way I thought of it, obviously, at the time, I thought I was conscious of almost 99, 99% of this I was not conscious of. So. So that was one thing that happened. Another thing that happened was again, every week or every other week, people from outside of the school would come, they would be in suits. This is what smacks of some weird intelligence community or Defense department thing or something. They're in suits and we go to the nurse's office and we put on these headphones and they call two of us out at a time, and they're from this gifted program. This only happened during the year. To my memory, this only happened during the gifted program year, which was seventh grade. The gifted program was called Soar, which, by the way, stands for, get this, Students on Active Research. I mean, could you not get more creepy?
- [60:06]
A
Come on. Yeah, that's what it stands for.
- [60:08]
B
Say the thing that we're doing.
- [60:09]
A
No, actually, well, now after I'm reading all these emails, you know, that's apparently how these people think.
- [60:14]
B
Yeah, no, we'll just say it, right?
- [60:16]
A
Yeah, we'll just say it.
- [60:17]
B
Island with underage girls.
- [60:18]
A
Yeah. Somewhere like the old mobsters are reading those emails, going, going, God, this is up. They didn't learn from us.
- [60:25]
B
Yeah, seriously. So they would have us come in there and we would listen to these tones and they would call them hearing tests. But again, I, you know, I mean, my PhD is in psychoacoustics. I know what a hearing test is. And looking back, I can see this was not a hearing test. In a hearing test, the sound goes up and down and you're trying to say, oh, I hear that. No, I don't hear that. Right.
- [60:47]
A
Yeah.
- [60:47]
B
Okay. Okay, that's not it. We would Always be able to hear it. It sounded like an old AOL dial up or a fax machine.
- [60:56]
A
This is the part you can remember?
- [60:58]
B
Yeah. This is the different room. Different. I can remember what happens in the nurse's office with the hearing tests.
- [61:03]
A
Okay.
- [61:03]
B
So every other week they're asking us how we feel when we listen to these sounds.
- [61:09]
A
Yeah.
- [61:10]
B
Which is not normal. So then we go back. The only other thing that I can remember that was very, very weird. I mean, the class itself, the SORA class was pretty fun. We got to write books or do. Basically do our own thing and play with psychic Zener cards and stuff.
- [61:24]
A
Of course, because psychic what?
- [61:25]
B
Zener cards. These cards. See, also, it was shocking to me when I found out that other people did not know what this was for a long time. But they're these cards. They look like playing cards, but there's only five different shapes here. Yeah. You can see them up there. There's a circle across wavy lines. A square and a star are. And so they. We would. They would give them to us. Our teacher would give them. They were just around to play with. Right. And so we'd like, oh, can you know what the way you play with them is like, hey, I'm looking at one. Do you know what I'm looking at? Right. So it's, you know, you're playing around with telepathy or you do precognition. Like, what card am I going to turn over next? It was just one of the games that we would. Because we were running wild. We did whatever we wanted.
- [62:06]
A
How many kids were in this?
- [62:07]
B
Like 10.
- [62:09]
A
Any of your friends or people?
- [62:10]
B
Yeah, my very best friend. Her father also worked with the military.
- [62:16]
A
Oh.
- [62:16]
B
Most of the people in the room had relationships to either government or military.
- [62:22]
A
And how. What you. So was it first grade when you were first pulled in?
- [62:26]
B
You were saying first grade? I was. That's when I started to be tracked. And they would give me all these tests and I would get to spend recess teaching other kids. And they would pull me out and just give me special privileges. Right. By seventh grade, they explicitly said, you're in sword. Now, the other thing that rhymes with gate, which came later. Gifted and talented education. Many things rhyme with gate. So I think this is a predecessor of gate. But anyway, they would give us this weird drink. It was like pink for us. And you made a movement with your finger. Does that mean you were thinking about like fluoride? Because they would tell us it was fluoride.
- [63:13]
A
No, I was not. But that's funny.
- [63:16]
B
Okay.
- [63:16]
A
Because I Literally did that with my teeth.
- [63:18]
B
Yeah, okay. Sorry. When I talk about this stuff, it's a little telepathy and it's a little bit like hyper vigilance.
- [63:24]
A
Yeah, right. When did you realize you had a photographic memory?
- [63:28]
B
I don't. Do I have a photographic memory? I think I have a more of an auditory photograph. Like I remember very much what people say. Do you have that?
- [63:35]
A
Yeah, I have an audio visual photographic memory.
- [63:37]
B
Yeah. A little bit of love photographing in the sense when I used to study, if I could put everything, I would boil everything down to one card and then I would memorize the card and then I would know where it was on the card, you know, so I guess a little bit of that. But the auditory, like if someone says, no, I never said that. I'll be like, no, you did.
- [63:54]
A
At 5:31 on Tuesday. Well, that I feel like that's a. You know, you have two X chromosomes. That's part of the gift. You know What I mean is that. Yeah, you guys remember things.
- [64:02]
B
Yeah, that's true. You guys don't.
- [64:04]
A
It's like, I mean, I do, but man, there's some really exact things. I'm like, there's no way I said that.
- [64:12]
B
Well, yeah, no, turns out I did.
- [64:14]
A
I'm just saying.
- [64:15]
B
Also the thing with the. I actually did a study when I was a postdoc because all of my women friends who were cognitive neuroscientists with me, we all noticed that our male partners could not find. Like, they'd always be like, they go to the refrigerator, like, do we have any ketchup? And we'd be like, it's there. So we had this theory that they can't see. They can't see beyond something occluded. So like, what occluded means is like, is there a glass behind the scrape fruit? Like we had this theory that guys just don't look beyond the first thing. So we tested it in this room. We had men and women line up outside of this closet and we had hidden a bunch of things. And we said, we're going to time you in finding these things. And some things were hid behind others and some things were out in the open and we saw no difference.
- [65:03]
A
Okay. I was going to say this sounds like anti male defamation to me. It does at first.
- [65:07]
B
Yeah.
- [65:08]
A
You did okay though. It was a good finish.
- [65:09]
B
Thanks. So what we figured out is that what they're doing is they're just outsourcing it to the person, the location of stuff in the fridge to the person who actually Put it away.
- [65:23]
A
Oh.
- [65:24]
B
Until we figured out is like, usually the woman goes shopping still, like, that's a thing. I don't know. My husband and I do it equally generally, but I'm usually putting things away because I like them in certain places. Because I like them in certain places, I know where they are.
- [65:38]
A
That's right.
- [65:39]
B
So I think it's just that. What were we talking about? Oh, yeah. So anyway, the pink drink.
- [65:45]
A
Yes.
- [65:45]
B
I don't know what was in that. That's good.
- [65:47]
A
I didn't even have to get her back on.
- [65:49]
B
It was. It was viscous. It was thick. It was like that. It was chalky.
- [65:53]
A
Was it good?
- [65:54]
B
Someone recently, when I talked about this on a podcast, said, oh, you mean like contrast that you would take? No, I spit it out. I tell myself I spit it out. And I don't know if that's a narrative of redemption, because I consciously and analytically, I wouldn't have swallowed it if they told me it was fluoride because my dad had an obsessive compulsive disorder about teeth. And he had an obsessive compulsive disorder around not swallowing toothpaste because of fluoride. So he had told me, don't swallow fluoride. And so I want to think that I wouldn't have swallowed it.
- [66:27]
A
Do you remember how it tastes?
- [66:28]
B
But I also remember how it tasted.
- [66:29]
A
Yeah. What did it taste like?
- [66:32]
B
You know, like flavored syrup mixed with chalk. I mean, it's like bubble gummy.
- [66:37]
A
Yeah, well, that would be. I remember that, like, there was like a year when I was little where they're like, make sure you use your fluoride rinse. That's what it was.
- [66:45]
B
Yeah. Except that wasn't chalky. So the fluoride rinse, that. That. That's another thing is so this. I don't know why they would want you to swallow it if it's fluoride. That doesn't make sense. Unless they're trying to poison you. Right?
- [66:58]
A
Yeah.
- [66:58]
B
I don't think it's fluoride. Now, they also gave us these tablets that were apparently fluoride, but they would have a spit of out, so. So anyway, there's shit's going down. We don't know what it is. And I go to my mom a year and a half ago when I'm starting to. With. I'm starting to just remember this stuff, partly because I was applying for a job with the federal government that required a security clearance, and they asked for all of my. My. My records, all of my student Records, like all the way, all my transcripts. And I'm being like, you know, goody two shoes students. I'm like, oh, I got back to my grade school. I don't think anymore. Right. I think like the furthest back anyone goes, I'm like 57 right back. Anyone goes is high school. So I email, like, college would suffice. Yes, exactly. So. But I email my grade school and they're like, oh, sure, well, you know, it's on microfiche or whatever, but we'll go get it. They sent it to me and all the comments from my first through eighth grade are redacted.
- [67:57]
A
Redacted, like blacked out.
- [68:00]
B
And that's where you would put the sore stuff. I mean, so I know that I'm not insane because I called my friend, you know, Rita, who was also in the program with me, and I said, like, were we in the SOAR program? Because it's not on my transcript. She's like, she's like, what do you mean were we? Like, that's where we met. And so, so that's gone.
- [68:18]
A
So you saw blacked out every single page where that.
- [68:22]
B
Where the teachers would write things. And I know that I'm not insane because at least my mom kept first grade. And so I can see the first grade transcript without the redactions. And I can see the one with redactions.
- [68:34]
A
What did the one with without redactions say that was interesting?
- [68:38]
B
Oh, just like, oh, she's reading at the fifth grade level, blah, blah, blah. She's amazing. We love her. Maybe she should be more bold. But obviously I lived into that one.
- [68:46]
A
Yeah, you definitely did. But. But there's, there's. That's the pre years before you were in soar. So I guess they're like redacting the tracking that would have happened to be like, oh, this one's qualified. Once you track them one through five or one maybe.
- [69:03]
B
I mean, like I. I asked her, I said, why are these redacted? She said, that's just how we have them. I don't know why I'm like, but I'm me. Like, I should be able to see my own records, right? So anyway, that started getting me interested and. And I called my mom and I said, you know, remember that Soar program I was in in seventh grade, right? And she, without saying another thing, you know, she's in her 80s, she's still very sharp. She goes, oh, yeah, they were studying you. And I go, who?
- [69:30]
A
Gee, thanks.
- [69:32]
B
I go, who? And she goes, I don't know. CIA? I don't know, but she just said CIA. Because everyone thinks of CIA, Right?
- [69:39]
A
There's a lot of other things though, too.
- [69:40]
B
There's so many intelligence agencies, there's so many defense agencies. There's like other countries, there's contractors. But it could have been CIA. I don't know. Know. I think it was some countries, right. Or the Soviets coming after you, maybe, who knows? I don't know. All I know is like, you have to think that the story that we constantly fall back on, right. Oh, CIA was doing this or the Air Force was doing this. Like, I don't know. It seems to me not a full enough story.
- [70:17]
A
I agree. I feel like it's very one dimensional and like, straight to the point sometimes. And these are places that you're. When you think about it, there's nothing about them that's ever straight to the point.
- [70:27]
B
Yeah.
- [70:28]
A
For better or worse? In a lot of cases, for worse.
- [70:30]
B
But yeah, yeah, yeah. And it also feels like almost like a scapegoat. Like the CIA is the agency that can't say anything. Like everyone can blame them for. And then they can't say anything. So I'm involved with these folks at. who used to be some of them at CA and some in other intelligence agencies, whatever. You know, I'm good friends with them and maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But all I know is they're making a movie called the Power we hold about women in the intelligence community and what women in the intelligence community have tried to do to make that a better place. And when it. And it makes me want to talk with you about the. Just bringing this up right now, please. Makes me want to talk with you about how this stuff was handled. So if you look at. I did some work on the history of. Oh, I got this all over your table.
- [71:17]
A
That's fine. I'll grab one. Yeah.
- [71:19]
B
Okay.
- [71:21]
A
Keep going.
- [71:21]
B
I just got it.
- [71:22]
A
You're good.
- [71:23]
B
Just rolling my, Rolling my grapefruit around and then I just started peeling.
- [71:26]
A
I'm the same. Like, if I had had that sitting in front of me, that would have been unpeeled like 40 minutes ago. My hands would not. I'm good, thank you. My hands would not be able to control themselves.
- [71:35]
B
I know. Because it's there.
- [71:37]
A
Yeah. That's why I have, like this in front of me.
- [71:38]
B
Yeah, Yeah.
- [71:39]
A
I need something to fidget with.
- [71:41]
B
Yeah, Right. So thank you. So the. I did a little research on this, and so I, I saw that I found out through obituaries of my teacher in this or program. And of the counselor that I saw because I remembered her name and her name was actually on my transcript that wasn't redacted. It was, you know, she had to helped me graduate from eighth grade. I was ready to go to high school. So. Thank you. I saw that this is the part where I just. My mind starts to fall apart. Okay. So I saw that their husbands had both come from aid South Carolina, both my teacher's husband and the counselor's husband, Fort Bragg. So there's a bunch there. So there's a right near. That's right near Augusta, Georgia, where the now the Cyber Command is. And back in the day, it was, you know, sort of some kind of equivalent. But it's also right near where I think it's called Savannah River National Lab is. Okay. And it used to be dupont. And dupont was initially responsible for, I think, plutonium or uranium processing for World War II. And then it became Savannah River National Lab when they took it over and said, like, we have to do this. So. And the SOAR program, students on active research. I found a bunch of old newspaper articles actually started back there in that location. So in the late 70s, before I was in. It started there before it came to Illinois. Yeah.
- [73:27]
A
But I pulled this up, by the way, what you were saying is correct. Dupont played a critical role in the World War II Manhattan Project by designing, building and operating major nuclear facilities, most notably, most notably the Hanford Engineer Works in Washington, which produced plutonium for the Nagasaki bomb. They also built. It's actually both. They built the X10 graphite reactor in Oak Ridge and process uranium or at their Deepwater, New Jersey plant.
- [73:50]
B
Yeah. Wow. So I had read online on Reddit about the SOAR Prof. I was looking to see do other people remember the SOAR program. So I found someone on online who was from Nevada. And I'm like, oh, that's a testing site. That's interesting. So I'm starting to string this together of like, there's some kind of radio radioactivity link here with this stuff. Okay. So then I have this dream. So I move from. So I have. I'm still in the space of like, for decades I've been in this space of. I'm going to skip over a lot of stuff, but basically being shown in various ways that I was being watched still and studied still, you know, as recently as a couple years ago. Right. And so life events. And I don't mean to sound paranoid, like. And I don't. And actually don't worry about it. Yeah. But I But I want to say this because when people have this experience, they can feel grandiose, like, oh, I'm just being grandiose, you know?
- [74:50]
A
I understand what you mean, but that's all right.
- [74:51]
B
But I've got the receipts. It's very clear to me, I believe you, that I'm not being grandiose. Someone was interested in studying me and. And they did it in incredibly robust and simultaneously ham fisted ways. Unless they wanted me to know, in which case they did it in elegant ways because I knew. And they also did it interestingly so move across the country. I'm still in this state of, oh, I have to hold on to this. Since I was in seventh grade, I had to hold on to this, like, okay, I have to be on the right side of this. You know, we gotta hold our secrets. And, you know, without awareness that I was still making this victim or perpetrator choice. Right. And then I have this dream and I moved. So I moved from California. I don't know why really. I moved From California to D.C. i can't really explain it to people. I just like, I have to go do this thing.
- [75:55]
A
When was this again?
- [75:56]
B
This was fall of 2023. Okay, okay. So November 2023. So December 2023. I'm only, you know, in the D.C. area, Northern Virginia. I'm in for a month and I have this dream that this. So little. Sorry, preamble to the dream. Lots of preambles. I apologize.
- [76:16]
A
I love preambles. You don't got to apologize. You're doing great. I'm thoroughly fascinated.
- [76:21]
B
Okay, good, because both fascinating and horrifying. Yeah.
- [76:26]
A
Dave had to leave the room. He was crying.
- [76:33]
B
Yeah. So I, you know, I. I've studied psychic abilities enough and had my capacities studied enough to know that I have some decent psychic capacities. One of them is precognition and one of them is telepathy.
- [76:47]
A
Can you explain precognition to people? You started to explain it with the cards earlier, but just so people fully.
- [76:52]
B
Yeah, sure. Precognition is using means other than the usual ones to predict future events that shouldn't be predictable. So the usual ones are like, I hear thunder. Maybe it will rain.
- [77:03]
A
Right?
- [77:03]
B
Right. Or my mom told me she'd call. I bet she'll call. Right? These are like the usual means. These are kind of like inferential or using unconscious processing of information to make predictions. This is how we normally make predictions. Right.
- [77:17]
A
Like, if I can like look at this phone and go like this and be like Tom Stevens, I don't know who that is. I made it up. It's gonna call and then they do it.
- [77:24]
B
Wouldn't it be cool if the actual Thomas Stevens. So that's. And you can test that in the lab and it's not too hard to test. And so I know that my precognitive capacities have been tested and I know that you know, they're above chance and same with telepathy. So. So when I dream things, I also know that I have precognitive dreams that have come true. And I've worked with, with wonderful guy. Yeah. So I mean this is why I'm interested in this field. Right.
- [77:56]
A
Had one of those today.
- [77:57]
B
What did you dream? Tell me more.
- [77:59]
A
I can't talk about it. No.
- [78:00]
B
Can you? Yes. No. I'm gonna eat my grapefruit.
- [78:03]
A
Yeah, no, no, I can't. I actually can't talk about that. But I have one today. Yeah, no, it's crazy.
- [78:09]
B
Okay. Do you already know that it was precognitive? Did it already come true?
- [78:12]
A
Cuz I literally dreamed it. You know how like I've had way smarter people who actually understand this explain this to me. So if I'm misexplaining this, correct me in the comments. But when you are going through the stages of sleep, oftentimes I think it's like once you actually get to REM sleep, I forget if it's like four hours or five hours in or something. The dreams after that you can remember. Well, but maybe the dreams you have at the beginning, you very quickly forget when you wake up up. I might have messed that up. But yes, basically something like that, like something I experience a lot that's kind of in line with what I've been explained is that if I wake up to go to the bathroom at 3:30, I'll like vaguely remember a dream I was having and then by the time I walk back to the bed, I've forgotten it. But then the dream that occurs after that, before I wake up at 6:15. Yes, I remember perfectly.
- [79:05]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I.
- [79:08]
A
Yeah, I had it. I had a dream last. It was very random. It was like. It was a dream I'd never had before. But I. I had a dream that involved like multiple different things and then it happened.
- [79:21]
B
Yeah. So what? That's the exciting definition of a precognitive dream. So it has to have multiple independent verifiers and then it has to occur. Yeah. So that's how you know it's precognitive. So. So I know from. It's very hard to determine if any Particular dream that's precognitive was informed by unconscious information that you don't know that you're processing. Like when people dream someone's going to die or something, but maybe unconsciously you met with them and you saw something that, like, oh, their skin's yellow, but you don't notice it consciously. They had liver failure. You know what I mean? Yeah, but, like,
- [79:55]
A
is there. Is there something to deja vu, like, related to that as well, or is that in a different.
- [80:01]
B
I think deja vu. And I was just talking with.
- [80:05]
A
And I'll bring you back to precognition, but sorry about that. I had to ask that.
- [80:13]
B
This guy. I'm blocking his name. It's the opposite of Nick Bostrom.
- [80:18]
A
Oh, Bostrom's so interesting.
- [80:20]
B
Isn't he interesting also, like, pretty dark.
- [80:23]
A
Oh, very, very. When I read Super Intelligence, the way I read that book was like, it was one chapter at a time, and I'd to, like, like, get up.
- [80:31]
B
Shut the bug.
- [80:32]
A
Yeah. I'd, like, get up like this. Be like, whoa. All right. Like, it wasn't enjoyable, but I'm glad I read it. You know what I mean?
- [80:43]
B
Yeah.
- [80:43]
A
And then you hear him talk and he's like, so if you take the paperclip and the paperclip goes this way out, but then it goes that way out, the AI will tell you that it has eaten you alive. And you're just like. You are way too calm about this, my friend. That's very. It's an interesting world.
- [81:01]
B
We don't have to create that world, but that world is one possibility.
- [81:07]
A
Yes.
- [81:07]
B
You know.
- [81:08]
A
Yes.
- [81:09]
B
I vote. I vote against it.
- [81:10]
A
I vote against it, too, for the record.
- [81:13]
B
So. No, but there's. If you think of the. We'll get. We'll get back to deja vu and precognition. If you think of the brain, and one of its main jobs is to put events in time, like a story that makes sense. Sense. I mean, so actually, you can show through different illusions and stuff that the brain is taking information from all the different sensory systems and then internal information, and it's putting them together in a story that makes sense. And if this particular stimulus takes longer to process, it's going to hold on to that and make sure it's inserted into the right place to make a coherent story.
- [81:46]
A
Yes.
- [81:47]
B
So if you mess up on that as the brain, you get deja vu. Or you could get precognition. Right.
- [81:57]
A
If you mess up on it, if
- [81:58]
B
you mess up on telling the story the right way, in other words, If. If there's an informational substrate that has all that information without space and time and your brain messes up, doesn't grab the right things. You could be grabbing something from the future. Bless you. Or you could be grabbing something that you already grabbed, like the deja vu thing.
- [82:21]
A
Okay, put a pin in that. That's some wild stuff. So you were talking about you stream in December 2022.
- [82:30]
B
So I knew I had worked before with a guy, wonderful guy, named Joel Mullen who used to be in the Secret service. And then he was on the joint anti terrorism task force in San Diego. Because I had this dream about a bridge in San Diego, and I had already had a dream about a couple other events or dreams about a couple other events that had come true. So I got. I told myself, look, I'm gonna tell someone from here on out if I have one of these dreams, even if I feel foolish. So I knew that my dreams were sometimes precognitive. So I had this dream that there was a car. I guess it was a red convertible with the top down. There was a guy in the car, he had an FBI badge in the window. And I was walking and he was cruising alongside of me. And I turned around, I'm like, stop following me. Like, what the. And he goes, you know, I just want you to know we. We'd like that. You're spunky, but call the office.
- [83:31]
A
Call the office.
- [83:32]
B
And I. Yeah, right. And that's exactly what I said to obviously call the office. I don't. I don't work for you actually don't have a job right now. So, like, what? And I'm pissed at him, and he goes, call the office. I climb onto the hood because in the dream, like, that's what you do when you really want to make an impression on someone. I climb onto the hood. Yeah, because I was just like. Like my hackles were up, you know, I was changing, I believe, from this, like, I'm going to be part of this secret and keep the secret and be good Julia Brown noser to like, like the you part of. Like, you guys have to stop studying me and you gotta tell me what the. Is going on or I'm just gonna go talk about it. So guess which I did. So anyway, so I climb on top of the car and I crawl over to her and I say, what's the number? And he gives me this phone number and I wake up and I write a dough. And so that's the only time I've ever had a phone number in a dream. And so I immediately go, and the area code in which I'm staying, I Google it. And there's no phone number like that in the area code in which I'm staying, which was the 703 area code. Then I tried the DC area code and the Bethesda area code, just on a hunch. Turns out the same department of the federal government has that phone number in the DC and the Bethesda area code. But at different times in history, in the 80s and maybe early 90s, it was in D.C. the same phone number gets carried over from the same department to Bethesda when it moves in the late 90s and then the aughts. So this is very interesting because the SOAR program is happening in the 70s and 80s, and then in the 90s and aughts, it essentially turns into GATE. The. The department is a department of the U.S. army that studies the effects of radiation on. On humans. So that's what happened. And then the. The first document that shows up when I actually search for this number on Google is this national def. I think it's called the Defense Nuclear Security Agency or something like that. Their big memo back in the 70s. 1978, I believe. Or no, 68 maybe. It's in my book. I have better journalism practices in my book.
- [85:54]
A
Reserving the backup plan for the Julian Dory podcast. I got it.
- [85:58]
B
Sorry. And it just says that we have to start studying the effects of radiation on humans. And it underscores, we can't use animals, we have to use humans, because this is a human problem. I'm fascinated by this. I don't know if the drink that we got. I immediately think back to the drink and these radiation burns that I got when I was in California within the last 10 years. I immediately think back to that, and I think, oh, was the drink like iodide to help or iodine to help reduce radiation poisoning, or was it like a little bit of radioactivity to see if it had an impact? But I know that I would be an interesting person to study because my mother was obviously exposed to radiation.
- [86:44]
A
Yeah. That's what I wanted to ask you, though, because now I'm going back to the initial story. You told me your parents worked in this.
- [86:51]
B
Yeah.
- [86:52]
A
You also said something. You were. You and two of your siblings were sent away.
- [86:56]
B
No, no, that's my mother. My mother.
- [86:57]
A
I only have. Oh, yeah, no, I'm sorry. Your mother's parents worked with uranium. Yeah, first. Right. Your mother and the two siblings are sent away when they do that. So they don't have access for six months.
- [87:10]
B
We don't know why.
- [87:11]
A
But then your mom ended up working with uranium herself.
- [87:15]
B
No, my mom ends up being recruited to go to University of Chicago on a full ride scholarship and they watch her there and she ends up studying non speaking autistic students.
- [87:24]
A
But she. Okay, yeah, I was trying to get the story straight, but at the point that I was thinking in my head is actually the same now that we have it rehashed right there. She was never exposed to it and you were never.
- [87:38]
B
She was at home. So she. So it's like the deal is, but
- [87:42]
A
if she was sent away.
- [87:44]
B
Well, no, she's sent away after this. So they're a poor family, they're living in Denver. All of the people who work at the plant. Her father was actually working with the uranium. Her mother was probably a secretary or something.
- [87:55]
A
Okay.
- [87:56]
B
So her father's probably the chief one who comes home with uranium dust on his boots. So as she's growing up, before she reaches the age of seven, she's exposed.
- [88:05]
A
So then if she's exposed. Exposed to it. Just exposed to it. It's not like her boots then have uranium on it when she has you.
- [88:11]
B
Yeah.
- [88:12]
A
How are you exposed to it?
- [88:14]
B
Just that I think the idea is not that I was exposed to it.
- [88:18]
A
You're the offshoot of it.
- [88:19]
B
If you were going to study the effects of uranium on people, you would study the next generation. And then I wonder about the drink. Whoa. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yes.
- [88:31]
A
That's clocking now. I had to put it together.
- [88:34]
B
So as a cognitive neuroscientist and thinking about human exceptional performance, one of the effects of radiation, whether it's ionizing radiation like uranium or plutonium, or non ionizing radiation like EMF that we get from our devices all the time, one of the effects of radiation might be extending capacities like psychic abilities. Right. And so I think they were looking for both positive and negative outcomes of exposure to radiation, both within a person's lifetime and, you know, in the womb. Right. So a woman's eggs are around even when she's a kid. Right. So if a woman is exposed to radiation as a kid, that can cause mutations in the eggs that later manifests themselves when she has children.
- [89:24]
A
That makes sense. So you have this dream.
- [89:28]
B
So I have this dream determined to
- [89:29]
A
call me right back to an area, to a number that would correlate with the part of the government that literally studies that stuff.
- [89:37]
B
This is before I was thinking of that. But once I have that dream and I get the redaction I'm like, and the other thing that happened that triggered it all, this sort of just disclosure, self disclosure, is that I applied for this job, but I was recruited to apply for this job four days after I had sent in a FOIA request to ask them about the SOAR program.
- [90:00]
A
The.
- [90:00]
B
The Air Force about the SOAR program. So I got a phone call saying, you know, this is a job that I had submitted my resume for back in, like, February, this was November. And they're calling me with interest in the job. Then. Then the FOIA people, this is. I talk.
- [90:15]
A
Someone goes like, jim, we got one. All right, get her in.
- [90:17]
B
So I get a zapper. I got an email from the FOIA people after I got the call from the recruiter, and I said, oh, that sounds like a cool job. I think I'll apply for it. The FOIA people say, you know, if you really want to know about the SOAR program, essentially, I'm paraphrasing, you have to know exactly what program in the Air Force ran it. And I'm like, I don't know that. But I also had the feeling, like that was a pretty quick turnaround for foia, and maybe they don't want me to have an outstanding FOIA request. So I'm going to close this because I'm interested in this job because I'm still in that place of, like, I'm going to do the thing. So I. I say, okay, drop it. Drop the FOIA request. Three minutes later, I get a call from the recruiter. Oh, great. You know, you passed to the next level. It's time to do the cognitive testing. Three minutes. And I know that because I have a journal where I write things that are interesting that happen.
- [91:10]
A
I bet you do. Okay, I could have guessed that one.
- [91:14]
B
Yeah.
- [91:16]
A
This is not long ago either.
- [91:18]
B
So this is a couple years ago, fall of 2024.
- [91:21]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Less than that.
- [91:22]
B
Yeah. So this kind of stuff. But finally I'm in this state where I'm like, oh, I get it. I just have to say what's true for me and what I experienced.
- [91:33]
A
Yeah.
- [91:34]
B
And I don't have to explain, you know, all that stuff that I'm telling you could just be my own fabrication about putting things together to try to understand my history. Fine. Like, that's. I can tell you that.
- [91:44]
A
But you're doing your best to piece it together.
- [91:45]
B
I'm doing my best to piece it together, and this is my experience.
- [91:48]
A
All right, so this is so interesting because this is years, years later, too. Right. Like, you live a A, a whole scientific life here already in between these things happening. Right. Like you were doing things for a few decades that happens to be tangentially related to some of the very things you're putting together. So let, let's, let's go back for a second, if you don't mind. Time.
- [92:11]
B
Yeah.
- [92:12]
A
Obviously you go through the SOAR program. Obviously you're an extremely smart individual. Some very weird things happen there. You don't know about that. You get in touch with that later in a way, as we just talked about. But then what was that?
- [92:25]
B
I was giving you the thumbs up on your summary.
- [92:27]
A
Oh my.
- [92:27]
B
Excellent.
- [92:28]
A
I thought you were giving me a. Oh, wait a minute. Sorry. So, so then you end up going to college. I guess the first question would be at what point did you really hone in on even. Just like, I'm very interested in science, I'm going to go that route even
- [92:43]
B
before neuroscience, you know, my dad was a theoretical physicist and the one time. So he also had severe, severe. I mean, he's still alive. He has severe, severe obsessive compulsive disorder. But it's a little calmed down because he went to therapy. But at the time, yeah, but at the time he lost all his jobs because he would like line up his shirt sleeves for like hours every day.
- [93:08]
A
Oh, he had it like really, really bad.
- [93:11]
B
But the time when he would do his physics equations and I. And when he would be working on something, like he worked on the Strategic Defense Initiative, like laser nuclear pumped X ray laser thing. And when he, when he would get in that, When I would see him in the space where he was doing his equations and working, working on the physics, he was free of that. He was like, his mind moved fluidly. He wasn't paralyzed, he was free. It was like watching a musician jam. Right? And so I really took note of that. Like, here's my father, who I know is debilitated. I mean, I see him most of his life. I know he's just, he's frozen, you know, a lot. And yet there's this one thing that frees him. And so I could be with him in that because my mind worked in that way too. So I could say, you know, dad, let's talk about how the light is going through these, you know, old farmhouse windows and how it's bent. It was a way to connect with him. And then I noticed in myself that I was learning him. Like, you know, it. He. I mean, it's kind of amazing because his obsessive compulsive disorder led him to abuse my sister and myself because he thought there was something wrong with our mouths and he was going to fix it.
- [94:32]
A
It.
- [94:33]
B
So. So sometimes with obsessive compulsive disorder, it's all about the person's own body. And he did have that too. He thought there was something wrong with his body. You know, the. The story of obsessive compulsive disorder is there's something wrong and I'm going to do this thing, this ritual to fix it. Well, one of his rituals was about flossing our teeth. And he would floss our teeth for 45 minutes to 90 minutes a night from the ages of three to 10. Like, you're just like bleeding gums. It's. Yeah. Pretty bad. And so
- [95:02]
A
45 to 90 minutes.
- [95:03]
B
I know that. I'm not making that up because he tape recorded it. I know, right? So it's like.
- [95:13]
A
Because it's pretty crazy. You were laughing.
- [95:15]
B
I'm laughing because it's so. It's so crazy.
- [95:17]
A
Have you seen the tapes?
- [95:18]
B
I listened to him. He didn't videotape them. I listened. When I was. When I turned 25, I started. I found this old tape. Tape. It was a 90 minute tape. And by the end of the 90 minutes, he wasn't done with flossing my teeth, do you think? But what I heard on it was really important, which is me going, daddy, you already flossed that tooth. In other words, I fought back with him.
- [95:43]
A
And he would keep going, and he
- [95:44]
B
would keep going, but I would still fight back. Daddy, stop it. You've already done that. And so that was really powerful. Powerful. And that's my. That's where I get my narrative of redemption is I fought back even though he didn't stop. Like. Like that was just a random night. One of many. Right.
- [96:04]
A
So do you feel like that was all right? This is a little different than any type of, like, abuse I've. I've heard of before with the variables. Do you think that that was purely his disorder, doing what he thought he was supposed to do versus, like, getting a rush out of subsequent power over you? No, I wasn't even going there. But sure, go there if you want. I was saying just in general having, like, some sort of power over you.
- [96:32]
B
I think it's the ocd. It was so severe.
- [96:35]
A
Yeah.
- [96:35]
B
I don't know what was done to him. Something must have been done to him.
- [96:41]
A
But would he do this kind of stuff to your mom? Like, not the same thing, but.
- [96:46]
B
No, he didn't.
- [96:47]
A
He didn't have any.
- [96:48]
B
No he was. He revered my mother. And I got off actually easier than my sister because I looked like my mother. And also, that's why I was able to say to him, stop doing this. And he would laugh because. Not because he's evil. My dad is like, actually, if you know him, he's like, one of the sweetest men. And when I talked to him, I brought him into therapy with me. This was kind of. Most people don't get to do this, but I brought him into therapy with me, and I told him about how much it hurt me that he wasn't able to control his ocd and that. That really, like, I felt like I couldn't trust my father because he would, like. It was crazy making.
- [97:22]
A
Did he know that he had done this?
- [97:24]
B
Yes. And he just broke.
- [97:25]
A
He was aware that it was 45 to 90 minutes.
- [97:27]
B
Yeah. And he broke into tears, and he just was like, I was weak. I didn't know how to control my mind. And my mind decided there was something wrong with your mouth. And so this. It made me fascinated and with, again, the human mind. And that's where I took my. My love of science and my connection with my father into something that, like, what is the deal with the mind that it can get so warped this way? I mean. Yeah. And I think there was a little sexual component in the sense that, how can there not be? Because he's, like, holding me down on my bed. He's not flossing my teeth standing up. So, like, that feels rapey, you know, but, like, my mother's whole family was raping her when she grew up. So it's like, you know, she's downstairs doing dishes, thinking, you know, at least he's not raping her. Right. And so, like, she knew.
- [98:18]
A
She knew what he was doing.
- [98:19]
B
She knew what he was doing. Oh, right. And so. And so I talked to her about this, and she's like, yeah, I thought at least that that's not happening. And so it's like every generation gets a little bit better when this intergeneration. Thank you. That's. That's my narrative way.
- [98:38]
A
Very optimistic way of looking at it.
- [98:39]
B
Yeah. Well, also, I had this experience of this woman in her 50s, 40s, 50s, sitting in a rocking chair in my mind's eye. When I was a kid and my dad was doing this on the bed next to the bed in my mind's eye, there's a woman over here, and she's saying these things to me that are really healing. And she's saying, this is all happening. A gifted Imagination, Right. So in my imagination, she's saying, like, you could be mad at your dad. He's really messed up.
- [99:10]
A
While it's going on.
- [99:11]
B
While it's going on. And she's saying, like, you know what? You're gonna thrive someday. Actually, I know it doesn't feel like it, but, like. So she's telling me these things, you know, I'm making this character tell me these things.
- [99:22]
A
But you. Did you really see her?
- [99:25]
B
No. Mind's eye. Like. Like in my imagination, there's this character who's doing this. And then in my 40s, I go to therapy and I find out there's a thing called time travel narrative therapy where you take your current self and you go back to yourself who was having the trauma, and you bring your wisdom and your love, and you say, hey, you know, you're going to be okay. And I said, you know, let's try it. And I tried it. And of course, I have the experience of sitting in the chair and saying those things to myself. And now I can't remember if I actually originally had that experience as a child or if I'm misremembering it. And I don't care. So it ends up being.
- [100:04]
A
Would be perfectly. Yeah, yeah.
- [100:06]
B
Who cares? Because it was incredibly healing. And that's part of why I created the Institute for Love and Time is to create technology that can allow people to visit themselves in time at difficult times and bring that love.
- [100:17]
A
Okay, before we get to that, because I'm. You said that right at the outset, and the love and time combination was very fascinating to me. I want to. I want to get to that, but I want to stay on what this specific example for a second.
- [100:29]
B
And thanks, by the way, for being capable of listening to this, because I haven't really talked about this piece with the abuse with really anyone, really. I didn't even put it in the book just because it has felt very private. But now every. Everyone in my family is very open about it, and so I feel really good that. I mean, my parents are in their 80s, still alive. Fairly sharp.
- [100:53]
A
Yeah. And you have a lot of grace about it, too.
- [100:56]
B
Well, it's like we are all at the mercy of our genes and our brains.
- [101:00]
A
Yeah.
- [101:01]
B
I mean, it's shocking.
- [101:04]
A
Yeah. I. I just. The idea of the character you create in your mind's eye with the woman, I keep thinking about that. This is interesting. Like you said a second ago, it could be like when you're going back with regressive therapy and remembering it, maybe you don't realize It. But you're creating that character now as, like, someone almost hold your hand to relive that and say, it's going to be okay. Or that character really existed at the time, which I. I could see it going either way for sure.
- [101:37]
B
Yeah. And I'm not sure it matters, but
- [101:40]
A
you're not sure it matters?
- [101:41]
B
I'm not sure it matters.
- [101:42]
A
Why. Why do you say it?
- [101:43]
B
Because if. If. If the healing experience is sort of woven through time. I mean, we always have to have our memories. When we. When we try to heal something that happened in the past, we always have our memories there. It's sort of woven through time. Then does it matter where that person or that thing that we imagine showed up?
- [102:02]
A
Right.
- [102:02]
B
It's all one big soup, you know?
- [102:05]
A
Okay, I'm gonna have a lot of questions on that, but that's related to the love and time kind of thing too, so I'll wait on that. But if that character did, in fact exist when you were 3 to 10 while this was going on, you know, that. That.
- [102:24]
B
That's.
- [102:24]
A
That's a young age for this to start. It's like when you can first have a memory when you're like, three or four. My first memory is, like, Princess Diana's funeral when I was, like, around that age. Right. It's the first thing I'm like, oh, yeah. And then everything before that, I don't really remember. But, like, your brain is formulating, and so if you have this character to kind of get you through this thing that feels unnatural and, you know, is like, this should not be happening. Is that a form of, like, you learning to disassociate?
- [102:55]
B
I don't know. It was like, if it was. It was healthy disassociation.
- [102:59]
A
Healthy disassociation?
- [103:00]
B
Because the. The piece about me saying to my dad, you already did that too. Truth. I'm still in my body when I'm saying, like, that was pretty brilliant because I'm not floating and just, you know, whatever.
- [103:11]
A
Right, right, right.
- [103:12]
B
I'm saying, like, this is not okay. This is not okay. This is not okay. It's. It's the kind of thing that you need to do to someone. Did you ever see Silence of the Lambs?
- [103:21]
A
Of course.
- [103:22]
B
Right. So what she was trying to do in that pit, when she says to this guy who wants to take her skin off, like. Like, this is my name. I need this. You need to refer to me this way if you want me to put the lotion on my skin. Like, she's. She's trying to make herself Real. Because he's disassociated. And she has to stay in her body so that he doesn't disassociate. Force her to disassociate. Right. So it's this way of learning to work with broken minds.
- [103:54]
A
I wonder, though, because of how young that. How young you were when that started. And by the way, then the overlap that occurs.
- [104:01]
B
Yeah.
- [104:02]
A
That's also, you know, smack dab in the middle of that when you're seven is when you first walk into that room in the school and then don't remember.
- [104:10]
B
Oh, yeah. So that. I mean, I'm sure I was gifted at dis. Disassociation. Yeah. But I think. But I think I also was able to. I guess what I'm saying is disassociation can be a really powerful and important defense mechanism. I mean, like, horrible things are happening. Disassociation could save your life, you know, and staying disassociated means that it's very difficult to heal. And so when I say things like, slowly I start to. Over the last decades, start to realize like, okay, I don't want to keep that secret. I don't want to. You know, I just. I just want to be true to what happened to me and not play some kind of game with some unknown force that's. Or some unknown people or organization that's monitoring me. That's a way of getting to healing with a dissociation which has had to be true forever. I mean, so I think. I think you're right in a certain sense. And also, all of creativity can be seen as a disassociation in that way. Just like I imagined her. It's a creative act to imagine her. Right. It's a creative act to be a comedian. It's a creative act to. To do what you're doing. Right. Psychologists, psychologists. There's another one of those words. Psychologists. Psychology or psychologists tend to see. Or actually, more like psychoanalysts, folks who are Freudian. My lesbian parents were both therapists, and one was a psychoanalyst.
- [105:51]
A
Your lesbian?
- [105:52]
B
Well, my mom divorced my dad around. When I was around 10. And that's why that stopped with the flossing.
- [105:59]
A
Oh, the divorce stopped it.
- [106:01]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Because I wasn't living with my dad then.
- [106:04]
A
Okay.
- [106:04]
B
Yeah.
- [106:04]
A
And then your mom married a woman.
- [106:06]
B
Yes. And so my stepmom, Karen was a psychoanalyst in Chicago, one of the first psychoanalysts who was allowed to become a psychoanalyst even though she's gay. Because in the psychoanalytic tradition, being gay is like you're sick. Like, it's considered sick. And so. But they let her because she was good, I guess.
- [106:26]
A
Like, you're talented.
- [106:27]
B
We need you. So that happened. But anyway, she, she would say that the psychoanalytic analytic view or the Freudian view of creativity was pretty negative. Almost like, oh, it's a defense. Anything that's not, like, I am here and you are there and we're in the world and, you know, is a defense. And so I don't necessarily, I don't necessarily believe in that, but I think a lot of those ideas have leaked into our psychology. I would call them all people attempting to have a narrative of redemption, all of it.
- [107:03]
A
You know what? I actually think that's a great way to put it because any fellow creatives I know in, in a variety, a wide variety of many different ways have experienced difficult things in their life. You know, if you want to just put under one term different types of traumas or whatever. But I, I can't think. Like, I have a lot of friends across a bunch of different spectrums. And like all my friends who are not creative types sometimes have a very difficult time understanding how I express myself when I'm talking with them. And also, and this isn't a shot at them at all, at least from what I know about them and I certainly don't know everything, have mostly had, like, very good lives and, you know, less going on doesn't mean that that's the case. We all know people hold some things in and whatever, but. Whereas, like, when I talk with my really creative friends, a lot of them are pretty open about like, well, this happened to me, or when I, I was 10, this kind of thing happened to me. Or I lost both my parents when I was seven, stuff like this, or, you know, some sort of awful divorce. My dad beat my mom and then I would watch it and then he, they, they divorced when I was seven. I hear this a lot.
- [108:19]
B
Yeah.
- [108:19]
A
And there's, there's always been something to that because then maybe it affects their vibe, maybe sometimes some of them are prone to depression and things like that, but then they make these beautiful things. Yeah, like beautiful things. Whether it's a song or a picture or you name it. That's right.
- [108:37]
B
Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's the standard deal for creatives. It's the standard story. There's data on that, you know.
- [108:47]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's your perspective on your own childhood, though, and like getting in touch with it and the upbeat nature and self, not only self aware but also like, I don't know the word I'm looking for. I don't know if this is what I mean. But like self forgiving perspective of like being young and naive and you know, there's things happening to you that you really didn't have power over because people can blame themselves for that later, obviously. Yeah, like it's, it, it's pretty amazing how you've put that all together and have seemed to have like a great piece with it.
- [109:29]
B
I do now, but I, I also think it took. I mean I was in therapy for, you know, at least a decade and a half.
- [109:36]
A
Yeah.
- [109:36]
B
And a bunch of meditation, a lot of reading, singing, learning to sing.
- [109:43]
A
Sing.
- [109:43]
B
Not professionally, but just like I, I worked with a wonderful vocal coach, Heather Aranyi. She just is fantastic vocal coach who's, who's experienced in trauma, has actually degree in working with trauma. And the first day I walk in and she's like, I'm like, I don't want to become a professional singer. I just want to be able to use my voice in a way that's really authentic and I want to, in my profession, I want to tell people who I am. That's what I want. So this was about. Oh gosh, I think this was about 12 years ago. So I walk into her studio and she's like, great. So I'm going to be in the next room and just sing something. And I'm like, I'm shy. Whatever. She's like, sing Happy Birthday. I just need to hear your voice. Just like. So I sing Happy Birthday and I come in and she goes, you know, yes, so I can work with you. I like your voice, but are you open to talking about any childhood trauma you might have had around your mouth when you were a kid?
- [110:46]
A
Kid?
- [110:47]
B
And I said, and I said, and at that point I wasn't as aware. And I said, you know, I had some childhood stuff about my mouth, but like I went to therapy for a long time and that's done. Like I'm, I'm done with that. Like I, I worked that out and
- [111:05]
A
there was no sensory leakage going on here.
- [111:07]
B
There was no sensory leakage. She could hear it in the way I was holding my jaw. She could hear it. And, and then it took a few more sessions before I, I finally came in and said, you know, maybe this is it. And I told her about the flossing thing.
- [111:21]
A
Oh yeah, maybe. Oh, I don't know.
- [111:24]
B
She's like, oh, that seems kind of traumatic.
- [111:26]
A
Yeah, that'll. That qualifies.
- [111:28]
B
But I said, you know, but I went to therapy and stuff. She's like, yeah, but it's in your body. You know, there's this amazing book, the Body keeps the Score. And she's like, it's in your body and so your mind has come to peace, come to terms with it. You're at peace with that in your mind, but in your body, there it is.
- [111:45]
A
So our body physiologically carries traumas and manifests it subconsciously, effectively.
- [111:51]
B
Right. So she taught me how to sing. Yeah. The body keeps the score. Yeah. Really fantastic book. She taught me how to sing so I could learn how to talk, so I could use my own voice. I had, I had lowered my voice. I have relatively high pitched voice. I had lowered my voice because I had been taught in graduate school when I was getting my PhD. One time explicitly, but several times implicitly, that I needed to lower my voice so people would take me seriously. Yeah.
- [112:20]
A
They told Elizabeth Holmes that too.
- [112:22]
B
Yeah.
- [112:23]
A
It didn't work out too well.
- [112:24]
B
No. So I was using like, I'm using this voice now, which is at the bottom of my range. This is normal for me. This is okay. It's a little bit gritty, but I was using, I was using like a low. I was using.
- [112:38]
A
Oh my God.
- [112:39]
B
I was like hurting my voice.
- [112:40]
A
Yeah. No good.
- [112:41]
B
Yeah. So, yeah, so the story of anyone, I mean, then, you know, and everyone has had experiences that they didn't love. And then there's trauma, which is different from that. It's feeling helpless when you're having an experience that's. That's bad. And many people have had trauma in our country. Something like 84% of people in our country have had this. It's ridiculous, this. So a lot of people know what I'm talking about when I say you find ways to get through it that are short term solutions and you find, if you're lucky, you live long enough to find ways to get through it that are long term solutions. And I've realized that being who I am is the long term solution.
- [113:25]
A
Yes. Being true to yourself and letting it hang out and lay them where it does. I think that's amazing advice. I think a lot of people go through life playing a character and they don't realize it. You know, I see this all the time and think back to some of my own experiences before I did what I do now. And there were aspects of that without, without realizing it. You know, you, you got to do things to fit in.
- [113:51]
B
Yeah. Well, and we still do. Right. I mean, so it's like, so Hard to get away from. There's this idea of the Persona in psychoanalysis. Right. This mask. And it's hard to get away from. And I'm gonna be with you, Julian Dorie, when I'm on your podcast. Different than I'm gonna be with my best friend who's talking to me on the phone because we're on a podcast. Right. That's totally reasonable. At the same time, there's a strength to having a consistent thread. I think of it like events in time, in your life are like beads on a string.
- [114:27]
A
String.
- [114:27]
B
And when you pull them together over time and realize that's you the whole time.
- [114:32]
A
Yes.
- [114:33]
B
Then you become the string. And the events aren't your story. Your story is this essence that's always there, and it's. It's.
- [114:40]
A
The events aren't your story.
- [114:41]
B
The events aren't your story. I mean, you can tell the story and you could say, yes, when I was a kid, you know, my dad did this thing, his OCD was out of control, etc. All that is true. But, like, it's not who I am. Right. Those are things that happened, and I'm not saying they were great, but who I am is something much more powerful than that.
- [115:01]
A
Your past does not define you.
- [115:03]
B
Yeah, okay.
- [115:03]
A
Yes, I agree with that.
- [115:05]
B
And neither does my future.
- [115:09]
A
What do you mean by that?
- [115:13]
B
Well, so the thing is, remember when I was talking about your brain could be like a radio, and it's sort of receiving consciousness from a transmitter, but where's the transmitter? And then I said, when is the transmitter? And you were like, we'll come back to that. So that's now. So the transmitter could be in the future. In other words, consciousness could be being transmitted from the future. We may be being pulled towards our futures in some kind of intentional way by consciousness. That's like. Like, Julian, you're going to be doing this podcast because later you're going to be doing this da, da, da, da, da, da.
- [115:52]
A
Yes, I understand what you mean.
- [115:54]
B
Yeah. So that also doesn't define me. None of the things that happen, whether past or future, are me.
- [116:02]
A
All right, let me start at the base layer here. How do you define consciousness itself?
- [116:09]
B
How do you know what the base layer is?
- [116:12]
A
The base layer of what we're aware of as a species right now. Meaning it's. There's layers and layers and layers below that that we can't see. But at least, like through your career and all your studies, what's your best definition of consciousness?
- [116:28]
B
That's really what it is, is that Question for you is how do you know what the base layer is? If you try to answer that question, it's like a Cohen, right? Like you know about Zen Cohen's K O A N?
- [116:39]
A
I don't think so.
- [116:39]
B
Oh, okay. So they're this like, like a Zen master will go, grasshopper, I have something to teach you. And, and they will say what is the sound of one hand clapping? And then the, the student is supposed to go meditate for like a year and figure out the answer to that. And it's supposed to enlighten them or whatever. Right? That's a Cohen. So a koan is sort of wakes you up, but also questions everything. So the koan that you just brought up is. I'm going to start at the base layer. So my question is how do you know what, how do you know, how are you using your mind? This is a Marcus Aurelius point. How are, I saw the Marcus Aurelius thing you have over there. How do you know using your mind what the base layer of anything is?
- [117:24]
A
You don't. You only know the base layer based on the info, no pun intended, based on the information that we as a species have made available to actually empirically understand, which we've only scratched the surface, if that.
- [117:42]
B
And so what are you using to, to say that sentence to me?
- [117:47]
A
Intuition.
- [117:48]
B
What else are you using?
- [117:51]
A
Information.
- [117:52]
B
Where is that information?
- [117:55]
A
In the ether sphere of what other human beings have communicated before this conversation.
- [117:59]
B
So can you point to it in space?
- [118:03]
A
In space?
- [118:04]
B
Yeah, like when I say where something is. Like I can say where's this what the fuck button?
- [118:09]
A
Yeah, it's right there. I see what you're saying. No, no, I'm not being double advocated. No, no, no, that's okay.
- [118:14]
B
I'm trying to figure this out.
- [118:15]
A
No, it's a good question. I, I, I don't, I can't point to it like that, but I could say, you know. Dave, can we Google what, how consciousness has been defined according to the five greatest experts of consciousness in the world. Something like that, that. And it's an idea that then pops up in this on the screen.
- [118:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we've turned these, these. So, so I'll get, I'll answer the question but then I'll explain what I was doing there. Sorry.
- [118:43]
A
No, that's fine.
- [118:44]
B
I'll. We've turned the. We get confused about consciousness because it's confusing. The one of the reasons it's confusing is we have individual consciousness. Like the thing that happens when you wake up in the morning or the thing that happens when you come out of general anesthetic, all of a sudden you're conscious, right? And so you're having experiences. That's individual consciousness. My experiences are different from your experiences and we can talk about them. Then there's this other thing of consciousness that feels like everyone's consciousness, like a cosmic consciousness. William James called it cosmic consciousness. He said the trees of the individuals. If each individual mind is a tree, it's like the roots intermingle underground. And this is what we call cosmic consciousness. In other words, it's like the consciousness. It's like awareness is what the advaita people might call it the advaita. It's a non dualistic tradition. Like you were talking about how contrasts are important. They say, yeah, they're important because it's all one. The black and the white are within the. The. The. So, so, so we get confused between individual consciousness and cosmic consciousness, even though they're very different. Individual consciousness is the sort of low level. My waking daily experiences. Cosmic consciousness is like the experiences that anyone can tap into. Almost like this informational substrate we were talking about. And so my definition of consciousness depends on which one you're asking about. If you're asking about, about waking daily consciousness, my definition is, you know, the part of your mind let's ignore the brain because we don't understand how it links with the mind. So the part of that.
- [120:28]
A
What's that line? The movie. Your brain and my brain and my mind. Black in In School of Rock. In my mind I would always look at that like Tibetan monks.
- [120:41]
B
If you ask them where their mind is, they point here.
- [120:43]
A
Oh, that's. There's something to that.
- [120:45]
B
There's something to that. So anyway, the mind is telling the story when you're conscious about what's going on. And it's making meaning and coherence out of what's going on. And it helps you survive. You need that, right? You need to know what's going on so that you can get food and not be attacked by a saber too.
- [121:05]
A
But there's different levels to it. Well, let's stay with even the example. You just said there's a different level to it it than how a saber tooth tiger processes that versus how a human processes that and the ability they have to synthesize information. The saber tooth tiger synthesizes less than we do. Maybe they're only thinking about food. We think about food and you know, what time we're going to have it and stuff like that.
- [121:26]
B
Okay, let's talk about this tendency that humans have to always say, like, how much smarter we are than other animals.
- [121:33]
A
Walked into a trap.
- [121:34]
B
You set the trap. Yeah. I mean, people love to do this. Their sabertooth tiger is processing way more than we are in terms of sound and smell. Right. We're just very weak compared to a saber tooth tiger. Right. So it's back to this idea of what is intelligence? It's like, oh, and then a dolphin is like, oh, you guys are idiots, because you can't hear above, like, 20 kilohertz.
- [122:05]
A
Yeah.
- [122:06]
B
You know?
- [122:06]
A
All right, that's clocking.
- [122:08]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So it's more like we. We experience what we need to experience to live the lives with the brains that we have, you know, given where we fit in the ecosystem. And that individual consciousness is giving us the capacity to do that. The cooler one is the cosmic consciousness, which I. I basically identify exactly with God. Alternatively, with God, universal love, and the informational substrate. I think they're all the same thing.
- [122:38]
A
All the same thing. Okay, please do explain.
- [122:42]
B
I mean, really. Is that interesting?
- [122:44]
A
It's so interesting.
- [122:45]
B
Okay.
- [122:46]
A
Yes. So it's like, here's the meaning of life. Is that interesting?
- [122:50]
B
No, I just.
- [122:51]
A
Giggly.
- [122:52]
B
I get giggly because it's so fun to talk about this.
- [122:55]
A
Yeah, it's great. I'm very fascinated.
- [122:56]
B
Fascinating. There's more fun than talking about abuse, which is depressing, but also we should put a trigger warning on that conversation.
- [123:02]
A
Yeah, I. I do appreciate you going through that, though, and being vulnerable with that. That's. I. I know that's a difficult thing.
- [123:09]
B
Yeah. And I'm glad you asked. And. And I think it helps people to talk about it, actually. So. Okay. Now, having said that, I do want to point out that there's this amazing journalist, Kate Woodsome. How do you spell W O, O, D, S, O, M, E? She is retraining journalists and other people who deal a lot with journalism about how to keep people from. Who read their stuff from falling into trauma and being triggered because there's so much triggering stuff. See, the nervous system of democracy is burned out. We can heal it together. She's nonpartisan, focused on trying to make things. Oh.
- [123:45]
A
Because we're all doing. It bleeds. It leads journalism like crazy.
- [123:48]
B
Yeah. Clickbait.
- [123:49]
A
Both sides of the spectrum. Yeah.
- [123:50]
B
Y Y Y. So she's. She's something else. So, anyway, sorry. We're going back into the meaning of life, so. Or the meaning of consciousness. So I'm always pointing down when I think of the informational substrate, even though obviously it's not there. When I asked you the question about where is this information? If it's outside of space and time, it's. I can't point to it, but because we're operating in space and time and we know how to deal with stuff in space and time, I'm doing this because things that are below us tend to feel foundational, like the ground is holding us up. It feels like. Right, so that's just a metaphor. That's totally inaccurate. Okay. So the informational substrate is like this field of information that doesn't have any space or any time. Information about 1933 in Germany, it could be right near information about tomorrow right here in New Jersey. Right. It's not indexed by time and space, it's indexed by meaning. Right. And so that's why when a remote viewer or an autistic non speaker or someone who's skilled at accessing this wants to get information, or said another way, when the universe decides I'm gonna give this person the capacity to access this information, they just go to the information. They don't know how they get it. It. It's all jumbled up there. Right. And that in intention, the ability to just. I want to get the information. I don't know how I'm going to get it is what gets them there. So it's in the 3D reality. I have the intention of picking this up and drinking some water. Right. That gets my muscles to go right in this reality that is outside of the 3D reality. Same intention, but it allows whatever muscles exist outside of spacetime to go get that information. I believe that that two bi directional informational, the intention here, the information coming back, that flow is. And that connection that gets developed is God is unconditional love or universal love is the foundation of reality. That's all the same. So when people say God created the universe, that God is constantly creating the universe. If this is God, right. This is this connection, this bridge between this information and where we are.
- [126:14]
A
So you do believe in God?
- [126:16]
B
I don't just believe in God. I have like a personal relationship. Like I feel very much like. Like I have conversations with God all the time.
- [126:24]
A
Right, right.
- [126:25]
B
There's not a lot of talking back, but I have a lot of conversations in one direction. Sometimes I get some talk back, you know, through. Through feelings or.
- [126:32]
A
Through feelings.
- [126:33]
B
Yeah.
- [126:33]
A
So now not words, just the way
- [126:35]
B
one time I got words in my heart. Like I called it a text in my heart.
- [126:39]
A
What was that?
- [126:40]
B
Well, I was at this scientific conference in Florida and I was on a bus and we Were going to go to some tour or something. Sometimes they take the scientists out of the lab and they're like, we're going to take him on a field trip. And we're like, no. And so they were taking us on a field trip. And the bus driver had this. I don't know if it was Rush Limbo or like, someone who was, like, really angry talking. Could have been you. No, you weren't.
- [127:03]
A
I don't think you were born, you know.
- [127:06]
B
Yeah. And I was like, oh, he's so angry. He's so angry. And I was talking to God, you know, And I was like, you know how, like, when are you gonna, like, help people be less angry? Because it seems. It makes me angry to. That he's so angry and like, a bunch. And he's angry at people and he has a big influence and that makes me angry. And. And it's like, what's the deal? And I hear this, like, text in my heart. That's what I refer to it as. And. And what it says is, so you're gonna not love the ones who need it most.
- [127:42]
A
Oh, wow.
- [127:43]
B
And I was like, right, that is right. That's right, that's right. I just felt it in my bones. Right, Right. So whoever's angry and screaming at the top of their lungs, they're the ones who need the most love.
- [127:57]
A
Hurt people. Hurt people.
- [127:58]
B
Let's talk about that. Because that phrase can sound. Because most people are hurt. That phrase can sound like a slam.
- [128:07]
A
Right, Slam.
- [128:08]
B
Like a negative. Like you're dissing people who are. Who have been hurt, which is like most of the population.
- [128:15]
A
Like, you're gonna go, if I could clarify it.
- [128:18]
B
Yeah.
- [128:18]
A
Because that's just the quick way of putting it.
- [128:20]
B
Yeah.
- [128:21]
A
When we see someone hurt someone else, they may be one of these people who has been hurt, but they don't represent all people who have been hurt.
- [128:32]
B
Yeah, right. But that's not as snappy. So I. I get it. Yeah.
- [128:36]
A
Yeah. I mean, we gotta. We only have a limited number of characters.
- [128:38]
B
You know what I mean? It's all clickbait, so. Yeah.
- [128:43]
A
It's the title of this episode. Hurt people, Hurt people.
- [128:46]
B
Oh, no. Oh, no. I think it's more accurate to say, because everyone's such a mixed bag, like, I've hurt people for sure. Right. So has everyone. If you live on this planet long enough, you do stupid things and you hurt people. I think it's more like if you're hurting right now and you haven't figured out a way to work with your pain, then you're more likely to cause others pain because you want to externalize it. You want to put it out there. You don't want to feel it in here, you know, so. But also, that's not very snappy.
- [129:18]
A
It's not a snappy, but it makes a ton of sense.
- [129:20]
B
Yeah.
- [129:21]
A
So you felt like when you felt that text in your heart. I love how you put that.
- [129:26]
B
Really?
- [129:26]
A
Felt like that was. God.
- [129:29]
B
Yeah. Felt like it was a direct message and it was absolutely not the frame. It completely switched my frame of mind. It was not the perspective.
- [129:40]
A
Perspective.
- [129:40]
B
Yeah, my perspective was like, boom, I was in this one. Like, why wouldn't. Like I'm so self righteous. So, so self righteous. Like, why didn't. And then it was like, yeah, okay,
- [129:50]
A
so that makes 14 on that list out there. Is everything we hear is a perspective or everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.
- [130:01]
B
Marcus Aurelius.
- [130:02]
A
Yeah, that one's very, very, very true.
- [130:04]
B
That's beautiful about that a lot.
- [130:09]
A
What were we talking about before that?
- [130:11]
B
God.
- [130:11]
A
Oh, yeah, that's right. God. Because you were talking about the three ways that you view, like essentially coming together. It's God, informational. What were the other two?
- [130:22]
B
Universe, informational substrate, universal love and God.
- [130:26]
A
Okay, yeah, let's focus on the universal love part. You explain the informational substrate, which, by the way, you kind of answered a question there that I always ask for pretty much everyone, because it's just so fascinating to me, which is like, where do ideas come from? And when you're talking about like that time and space, that then with the example of like, moves muscularly to you, like, oh, I'm gonna drink this water after it came through. It's kind of right on the wavelength.
- [130:50]
B
Well, yeah. When you're working on an idea as a creative person. Right. You have to set aside time and have the intention.
- [130:55]
A
Okay, yeah.
- [130:56]
B
Get some creative thoughts going.
- [130:57]
A
But why? So that's another thing, though. I always cite this. The Ed Sheeran has this idea that was painted into it into a really good, like, not a meme, but like a picture representation of what he was talking about when it comes to creativity. He's. And he talked about like the. The water spigot, the sink of creativity. And on the left side, it shows a sink that's open and there's brown dirty water coming out.
- [131:22]
B
Yeah.
- [131:22]
A
And then on the right side, it shows the sink that's open and there's beautiful sparkling water that comes out about. And what he was explaining is that in order to get to the beautiful sparkling water flowing, you have to go through the dirty flow right here and just get started and get it moving to get the ideas flowing. And suddenly, universe brings it to you.
- [131:39]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my husband's an artist, and his painting teacher said to him, you know, in order to paint your first good painting, you have to go through a hundred bad ones.
- [131:47]
A
Yes.
- [131:48]
B
You just have to. You just have to do it. Go like, I don't want. Then my poetry teacher wants to. Just told me the same thing. I turned in all my poetry, and he's like. I'm like, what'd you think? What'd you think? And he's like, yes. I keep going. You know, it's.
- [132:00]
A
But the next one will be good.
- [132:01]
B
Yeah. You know, we got to do this. Yeah, yeah.
- [132:04]
A
There's something really to that, though.
- [132:06]
B
Oh, yeah. It's real. Yeah. Well, it's training your. It's training your mind in my. Sort of. In my framework, which I don't know if it's true, is it's training your intention to go. It's training that muscle to go to the right place, to actually reach. Like, when you're a baby, you can't really reach the glass. You want the glass, but you're, like, knocking it over, and you can't get it to your mouth even if you do get it. Same kind of thing with creativity at the beginning. It's training your intention to grab that. So universal love. I. I believe that universal love is like a natural force, a foundational force. Like. Like, when we understand the physics of love, we will understand that. And I see it very much like this informational field, because. The informational field. But remember when I was saying is that this connection is really the active part. Yes, this connection. So if you. If you consider the definition of love, and I. I've been trying to figure out the definition of love, and it's not easy, but the only thing I can come up with that seems general enough is that which connects. So we have that which connects. That which connects because.
- [133:12]
A
So you're talking about a literal definition.
- [133:14]
B
Yeah.
- [133:14]
A
Okay.
- [133:14]
B
Okay. So, like, love is that which connects. So, like, we have bridges, which are an example of something that connects. We have doorways or portals that connect. We have stitches that connect, things that connect. Glue, adhesives. They connect. But we don't have a general word for things that connect. And I guess I want that general word to be love, because that's what love is doing. It's connecting. And that doesn't mean that. That anger is the opposite of love, because anger can pull people away. Anger is another kind of connection. You still have a connection with that person. It's in the opposite direction. Right?
- [133:53]
A
Yes. I never thought of it that way, but that's brilliant.
- [133:57]
B
Well, thank you. I pulled that from my butt. So like all things, it comes from my butt. From the informational substrate up to my head.
- [134:07]
A
Up to your head?
- [134:07]
B
Yeah.
- [134:08]
A
Yeah, that's one way to put it. I said love is. You know, we were looking at Maslow's hierarchy earlier, and I was almost surprised it was like number three. Once you explained it, though, and what goes above it, like, you kind of have to have those things in order to be able to feel love. Right. Like some feel things that are bigger than yourself, meaning look outside yourself is like the most important thing. And to me, like, I've never looked at love as a. In the same way of, like, trying to define it as they would put it in the Merriam Webster's Dictionary. I always looked at it as like an emotive definition.
- [134:42]
B
Yes. Right, right. We'll think of it as small. I think people think of love as like an emotion, but I think it's really much bigger. I think it's. It's more basic than space and time.
- [134:52]
A
Yeah, I. I almost think it's like a spiritual realm. I'm not trying to say that to sound like woo, woo, but, like, literally, it puts you. It puts your soul in a different position. And I also. I don't know what you would think of this, but, you know, I'm always obsessed with how we use words and take words for granted and their greater meaning. And I do it too. Like, you just say things in phrases and you don't think about like. Well, that wouldn't actually make sense because if you look at it literally rather than the figurative phraseology of it, like, that kind of changes the meaning of it. But. But people throw around the term in love. Right. I felt I fall or I fell in love with this girl. Right. I've always thought there's two layers to love. Right. So for me, in order to be in love with a woman, and that has happened three times in my life. I know exactly when it did. I know the moments that happen and whatever. But in order for that to happen, there has to be some connection that has already occurred. Meaning you have experience, exchanged a lot of information. I don't mean to make that sound like, you know, boring. I mean, like, you have had deep conversations, understood who this person is from like a soulful Perspective and also had some sort of metaphysical connection in that way. Usually there's something physical related to it as well. I'm not saying that has to be a part of it, but that can certainly create a lot of things going on there. And like, you've. Whether that's a long weekend, that's for fate, or, you know, several weeks, once you're going on some dates with someone and really getting to know them, like, that's how it has to occur. But there's another layer below there that I've always called love, which is that love at first sight thing. I don't think you fall in love with the person right there when you connect. And maybe your heartbeats synchronize like I was talking about earlier. But there's this thing that happens where you cannot explain it. You don't know why, but the connection that occurs in just that micro moment right there makes you feel like, I don't care about my past, I don't care about my future, but for no reason. And it's beyond my understanding, I would jump in front of a bus for that woman right now if it meant saving her life. And I felt that before, too. And it's always been a step before I fall in love. And then a few times it never
- [137:11]
B
got to that point, but that's almost deeper. Foundational. Yeah, it's like accessing that informational substrate. Like, I'm really close right now, and there's this. There's information coming that, like, also pulling from the future. I mean, from this 3D reality. It sounds like the future pulling you forward. Like, that's it. Right?
- [137:28]
A
Yes.
- [137:28]
B
Yeah.
- [137:30]
A
So there's something to that.
- [137:31]
B
You think, oh, of course I do. But you're talking to, like, me, who
- [137:37]
A
actually thinks about this stuff. That's why it's important. Other people are like, oh, I never
- [137:40]
B
thought of it that way. You know, like, yeah, there's a lot of things I haven't thought about. Right. Yeah. But, yeah.
- [137:46]
A
So you've defined love as. What was the exact words? The connection. That which connects, that which connects. When did you come up with that?
- [137:54]
B
A couple years ago. I was so. So my nonprofit, the nonprofit that I founded with Wolfram ALDERSON Back in 2019. So it used to be called TILT, the Institute for Love and Time, and now is going to be called Applied Love Labs. So if you go to loveandtime.org that's the website, in the future, it'll probably be Applied Love by the time people hear this, hopefully, because we're working on the website right now. Yeah, there it is. The Institute for Love and Time. Love through time creates connection and healing. So I started this intuitively because I thought I woke up one morning and I was like, there's some kind of connection between love and time. But I couldn't put my finger on it. I didn't have a definition of either of those things. I knew, I studied time, I knew that love was important. It felt like there's a connection and I knew about my own experience with this time travel therapy stuff and how powerful that was. So this is one of those things that I did while I was asleep. I woke up and I'm like, I'm doing this thing, making this non profit. Guess that's the next thing. And yeah, we created something called a time machine.
- [138:59]
A
That's something called a time machine. That's like a. That's a steady flex right there. Please explain.
- [139:06]
B
Oh, yeah. So that's an app that allow. It's an app, you can go to time machine love and you can find it, but it's an app that allows you. It prompts you to connect with yourself at different times in your life. And you do audio recordings of yourself talking to yourself. And then it sends it off in the time machine. And then periodically in the future it says, by the way, you've got a message. It's like a message in the bottle. It's you.
- [139:29]
A
So it's moving for the. Okay, that's interesting.
- [139:32]
B
Yeah, yeah. And then it has this like community garden piece where you can put your hopes and stuff and other people can look at your hopes and you can all support each other.
- [139:40]
A
That sounds a little.
- [139:41]
B
It's a little woo.
- [139:43]
A
Not woo. That sounds like a little vulnerable, right?
- [139:46]
B
Oh yeah, yeah.
- [139:47]
A
Right.
- [139:47]
B
You back away. Yeah, come on. You're very vulnerable.
- [139:51]
A
I am. But that's like, you know, I don't know who's looking at that app. It's already bad enough I don't know who's watching these videos. When I say whatever the. I say studios, who knows who they
- [140:01]
B
are, Some secret army.
- [140:02]
A
If I actually like brainstorm some serious thoughts, hopes and dreams, it's like, like my buddy Ty had me like fill out one of his sheets or something for, for like, just like some goals, which is not. That's not how my brain works. But I was like, ah, it. I'll do it for him. And then I realized it was like a Google Doc. Everyone was looking. I'm like, what the. I don't even know what I wrote on this. He's like, no, dude, you're supposed to it. Download it and keep it for yourself. I'm like, oh, my God. Like, backspacing everything. Yeah, but. Yeah, so you're kind of doing that. Yeah, but people know they're doing.
- [140:37]
B
Yeah, people know they're doing that.
- [140:39]
A
They have consent.
- [140:39]
B
Yeah. We also have the private. Your data are always flagged as do you want to share this with other people or not.
- [140:45]
A
Right.
- [140:46]
B
You have your own private area.
- [140:47]
A
That's good.
- [140:48]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's really important to us. In fact, our. Our data, we got funded through the Robert Wood Johnson foundation, which is a health nonprofit.
- [140:56]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [140:57]
B
To create a better data policy. Because most people have crappy data policies.
- [141:01]
A
Yes.
- [141:02]
B
And we made one that was really clear. And, you know, you go to time machine love, and you think, click on privacy policy. And it's very straightforward. So anyway, I started this thing, and the people I worked with on the board and stuff were like, julia, you keep talking about love and time, and you say these things, and it's wonderful, and that's great. We've got these technologies, but what is love? We need to tell our donors what love is, because they always ask, and I'm like, okay. So I had to. I had to figure it out. So I don't know if it's a good answer, but that's what we're going with.
- [141:31]
A
I like that it's simple. I like that it's straight to the point, you know, like, even if people think that that might even be bland for something that everyone spends a lot of their life chasing or. Or is, like, one of the ultimate forms of trust that you build in the world. When you can love another person, they can love you back. I think it's important that you're able to distill it quickly and. And make it. Make you focus on, even if it's just one term that's like, oh, that's what I got to do. I got to connect, or, oh, I got to trust. Rather than like, well, it's really this thing, and it's visceral, and it's out there in the ether sphere, and if you touch it and feel it within the waves now, people are like, oh, my God, I'm never gonna.
- [142:12]
B
I'm never gonna be able to do that.
- [142:13]
A
Yeah, it's like chasing the mask. Magic dragon.
- [142:15]
B
Well, no, and in terms of universal love, which is. Which is the sort of creme de la creme, which is this relationship with the. In my interpretation, with God. Right. That's universal love. That. That's the Same. Right. And so wait, that's the same. Like universal love and God, I think, are the same.
- [142:30]
A
Did you say same or same?
- [142:32]
B
Same. S A M E. Same.
- [142:35]
A
So you think universal love and God are the same?
- [142:37]
B
Yeah.
- [142:38]
A
Please explain.
- [142:39]
B
Well, God is love of. Right. I mean, like, what better definition do we have of God?
- [142:45]
A
I mean, I can't think of one.
- [142:46]
B
No.
- [142:46]
A
Right. Yeah.
- [142:48]
B
I mean, because. Because if. If God. If, you know, assuming God created everything or creates everything actively. Right. It includes everything, like you were saying, includes the evil, it includes the good. So it has to. It has to be loved. Because you can't. A creator can't create all that without loving it. You can't create Jeffrey Epstein without being incredible. Have incredible love capacity. Right.
- [143:17]
A
All right. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Can you extrapolate on that, though? Yeah, this is a really important idea.
- [143:23]
B
Yeah, it's. There's a beautiful poem. So there's a wonderful book called Love Poems from God. Translator Daniel Ledinsky, who unfortunately died, but who's this amazing translator? He took 13 different mystics from east and west, so Muslim, Hindu. He was Jewish. There's no Jewish mystics in there. Christian, Muslim, Hindu mostly, and maybe Sikh. And he has many, many poems from all these mystics we're talking about like Catherine of Siena, John of the Cross, Rumi, Kabir, all these folks, big names, big names. And he translates there what they're saying to beautiful poetry. And in one of them, he has this sword. He talks about the sword who dies. Like, if a sword could die, this I forget. It might be Kabir, but I'm not sure. The sword dies and goes to heaven and is talking to God and says, God, will you forgive me for all the wrong I've done? I've hurt many people, you know, I've ended many lives. And God says, what kind of God would I be if I created you to do your work and did not love you?
- [144:43]
A
Okay, so the contrary point that people automatically put to that, and you're using a sword, which is his thing, as an example there for what they. They said in whatever that poem was, but pretend it was a person for a second, someone who killed a bunch of people. It says the same thing. That's kind of the allegory. What does that say about a God who says that to that person, but also knows that. That God created the same people who were on the other end of it.
- [145:11]
B
That's right. So that's the tricky thing about God, right? Universal love is if we are to learn that we are loved By God. And that we're forgiven for all the stuff that all of us do. How are we going to learn that if we decide that. Okay, that's true of me, but it's not true of you.
- [145:37]
A
It's another thing that can take a lot of grace for someone to get there, you know?
- [145:42]
B
Yeah. Which, by the way, doesn't mean that it's okay to do those things because. Right. I mean, I saw the Epstein survivors talk about their experience. So these are. These are powerful women who are saying their truths publicly and vulnerably. And the impact that they hope to have, I also hope to have for them. And. And so that. So it's not to say that this person should. What it is to say is when there's someone who, for whatever reasons that we don't understand, is behaving in this way anyway, that's hurting people consistently and can't be rehabilitated and is clearly just a complete disaster. What it does say is we have to remove them from society so that they can't continue to do that.
- [146:40]
A
Yes.
- [146:40]
B
And do that in a loving way.
- [146:43]
A
In a loving way.
- [146:45]
B
In a loving way, like we love Jeffrey Epstein, we lovingly have to lock you up for the rest of your life. I mean, you know what I mean?
- [146:51]
A
Like, one way to put it.
- [146:52]
B
Well, I mean, like, yeah, I'm not excusing any of it and it can read like an excuse, but what I'm saying is everyone is forgiven and we still have to work towards the good.
- [147:08]
A
So do you think something like hell exists, though, for the people who decide that they're above their actions here and they're just gonna bank on forgiveness for whatever evil they may do, regardless of what that is or how bad it gets?
- [147:23]
B
There are certainly people like that. I mean, that's.
- [147:25]
A
I think he was one of them.
- [147:26]
B
Empirically true. He was absolutely one of them. Do I think hell exists? I'm Jewish. There's not a really good concept of hell in Judaism. There's this feeling that God created everything, including, like, Hitler. And you still get to say, you know, Hitler was a son of a. And that's right. Should have been killed. Like, that's also true.
- [147:47]
A
That's right. But Hitler, and this is the crazy thing, too. I think about this a lot. Hitler was once a baby that was born.
- [147:54]
B
Yeah.
- [147:54]
A
Right. Now, I could buy. I've talked about this before with people. I could buy that scientifically, maybe with the right, the wrong push, I should say, certain people are born with certain genetics that more predisposes them to maybe go in the wrong way if they're given that wrong push. But by and large, I've always been really obsessed with, like, the environment that people are born into and then develop in and the things that happen to them and the response impulses that they then choose with those things that happen to them.
- [148:24]
B
Yes.
- [148:25]
A
And like, with Hitler, I'm always like, who is the. Who didn't let this guy into art school?
- [148:28]
B
No, always. Yeah, right. Always.
- [148:31]
A
Who is that person?
- [148:31]
B
You will go back in time and don't kill Hitler. Tell them to go to art school.
- [148:34]
A
Go to art school.
- [148:35]
B
Exactly. No. So I. But see, that's a very inclusive. So it's the same response I have to people who get. Well, people get all freaked out about. This one person is evil. Like, right now, it's Epstein. This one person's a bad person. And it's like, yeah, obviously I don't approve of that behavior. That's unbelievably devastating behavior. And he ruined people's lives and is still doing it. I mean, talk to me about what the shit he did to women in academia. But. But, you know, if you focus on one person, it's another dissociative move in the sense of, you don't ask the question, how does my behavior have anything to do with this? It's like, I'm white. That person's black. I'm not saying racially. I'm saying, like, I have the light and that person's in the dark. They're all bad. I'm all good. In other words, you see, it's like, well, if you read the Epstein files, I will talk about what. What he did to women in academia. There's one exchange where this I'll just tell a personal one and then a general one. In a personal one, I'm in the Epstein files because a guy named Josh Abach, who's a cognitive scientist in Germany, was basically, as far as I read, it was currying favor with Epstein on. On signal chat or WhatsApp or something, and was talking. They were being smart together because Epstein loved, like, smart academic types, Right? And so they were talking and Josh Abach, who I've worked with on a panel once, so he knew me vaguely, but I don't think he'd ever read his work. He said, well, you can't ever figure out. They were talking about the lottery. You can't ever figure out who wins the lottery unless you're Julia Mossbridge and you believe that. You know, it's retrocausally available information from
- [150:25]
A
the Future, you know, it's so strange to read your name in those emails with them.
- [150:31]
B
And also like, knowing that I had already worked with this guy and he already struck me as creepy. And now here it is. So it's like. But that's one example of. He knows. So Josh Aach knows he can curry favor with Epstein by making fun of a woman in academia. Okay, fast forward to John Brockman, another
- [150:51]
A
academ, the head of the Edge Foundation, Right?
- [150:54]
B
Yep. Talking to Epstein and trying to get funding for a conference on AI. And Epstein saying, well, this is, you know, that we used to have. We didn't used to have to worry about diversity and comp. So basically there were 20, 20 some people coming to the conference to speak about AI professors. Three of them were women. He says, well, that's too many women. Something like, we didn't used to have to worry about diversity. I like the old days anyway, these women are weak. Sorry. And he was talking about like Allison Gopnik and some other women who are just these famous, you know, mit, you see, Berkeley people and then Science of Consciousness, University of Arizona was supposed to happen in, in early April. I was going to go there with my team and talk about the non speaking autistic results that we have, the results from non speaking autistic people and talk about telepathy and talk about their minds. And anyway, we find out it's canceled. Why is it canceled? Because some of the folks involved, like Stuart Hameroff and Deepak Chopra are in the Epstein files. And Stuart Hameroff took $50,000 and didn't tell University of Arizona and lied about it. And so it just pisses me off because like, on the one hand I'm like universal love motherfuckers, because we have to get it. That that's there too. And they're all forgiven too. And one of the things about universal love is I get to feel loved too. It's not just for everyone else, right? I get to feel loved for my anger, my. My frustration with the situation. I get to feel loved even though I reject any thought that some wealthy elite man is gonna fucking change my career for the past 20 years. And I didn't even know it until now because of the circles he's running in and the money he's giving or not giving. And you know, I reject it. And at the same time, it's all held in love. I mean, so it's this weird paradox. And so I want to play a song about this, please. Can I? Yes. Are we. Did you have another Question or can I jump in?
- [153:12]
A
We got. I've been looking at the banjo the whole time. Okay, let's do it. Okay, thief, we got the EQ ready? Yes, sir.
- [153:20]
B
So I'm not going to sing the first part, the verses. What this isn't showing you is the chorus which turns this into an actual protest song that is really timely and kind of prescient.
- [153:33]
A
Interesting.
- [153:34]
B
So. So those are the first two verses. You know. Cripple creeks wide, cripple creeks deep. I'll have cripple creek before I sleep. The verse about. I'll roll my breeches to my knees.
- [154:00]
A
Yeah.
- [154:01]
B
So breeches are actually knee length pants. The only way to roll them to your knees is from the top down. Right. But it's a little coated.
- [154:09]
A
Oh, it's. Oh. I don't think it's coded. I think it's exactly what it reads like.
- [154:12]
B
Oh, exactly. So then here's the chorus. Let's see. I'll have to do the beginning part again. Release the EPSTEN 5. Release them all. Release the Epstein files one and all. Release the Epstein files. Release them all. Release the Epstein files one and all. Pretty cool, right?
- [154:46]
A
That's pretty cool.
- [154:47]
B
They were smart back then.
- [154:48]
A
Right on cue.
- [154:49]
B
That's good. Yeah.
- [154:51]
A
I feel like it's something everyone should be able to agree on actually for once. And I feel like we've been fighting. Take a little sidebar here for a second on this because it is precious. I feel like for years they. The elites have been separating us, the people on left. Right. You know, and how we view solutions to problems. Right. And maybe we have some different ideas to solutions. But every. Everyone generally wants the same things. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If I were really dumbing it down, right. Health, family, things like that. The fight. I saw someone comment this on a YouTube video a few weeks ago and I've been using it ever since. I thought it was brilliant. So shout out to whoever you were. But they've been having us fight horizontally. The fight is vertical. The fight is vertical. There is a very, very small, select, elite, uber wealthy, disgusting group of people who have decided that everyone else here is just a useful idiot for their peasant avante strings to kind of filler people.
- [155:59]
B
Filler people. Non player characters.
- [156:01]
A
Yep. And it's time for the people, all of us out here, who they. That's a great way to put it, who have referred to us, who are referred to as non player characters to show them that that's not how this works, you know. And what I hope is that in all this coming out because we've now had. How many administrations fail to do this? Like five, whatever it is, four or five administrations.
- [156:24]
B
Just all of them. All.
- [156:25]
A
Literally all of them. You know, I would hope that there is a real reckoning here, and I hope that in that reckoning, the entire house doesn't burn down, but the rooms that, you know, the murders occurred in, so to speak, you know, they get burned down.
- [156:45]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like the events of our lives with the beads on the string.
- [156:51]
A
Yeah.
- [156:51]
B
And we have to remember we're the string.
- [156:53]
A
That's right. That's a great way to put it.
- [156:55]
B
We are the string. And so. Yeah. No, I feel like fist bumping you because that's a great definition of what I call the inspiracy or the love revolution.
- [157:07]
A
The love revolution.
- [157:08]
B
Yeah. Yeah. You can use love as this powerful strengthening force. Yeah. This is the inspiracy. This is the rising up inside yourself to say, like, look, what's coming through is this is not going to happen anymore.
- [157:23]
A
Yes. And I think part of that is us having a better understanding of our different perspectives or different lived experiences, our different ideas on life and understanding the things that actually pull us all together, like I was saying, and then uniting around that. And, you know, if you could take. We were talking about the line between evil and good and, you know, that being like a part of meaning of life earlier, if you could take the very evil that is this situation, that you can't change what happened.
- [157:50]
B
Yeah.
- [157:50]
A
As much as you'd love to, can't change what happened, but now be able to use what has happened for some good to change the future in a great way, then I don't want to call it worth it or anything like that. Please don't mishear me. But do the best with what you have as you can. And let's see how we do with that.
- [158:11]
B
That is the fertilizer. Ye. Yeah. And so I totally agree. We have to move into a redemptive narrative, and that's the big switch. So we've been in contamination narrative forever and ever. And it keeps us in this place where we, you know, we're racing against China, which has such a different way of thinking.
- [158:29]
A
Yes.
- [158:30]
B
And. And the things that we have here in this country, the thing that, to me that makes it so special, is we're about the diversity. We're about, like, you think differently than I do.
- [158:41]
A
Yes.
- [158:42]
B
That's the good stuff. We're not supposed to be controlled by the state in that. We're supposed to be Able to say what we think. And that's the power. And so to me, the. The world thinks that these wealthy men, when you read the Epstein files and you see how people were flirting with them, like, you see, like, Bill Clinton flirting. You see the. The flirtation of. Because it's this powerful.
- [159:05]
A
Yes, that's what it is. It's power.
- [159:07]
B
It's power. It's like flirting for power or elan. Like you were saying, flirting, like, basically, oh, you and your people. I'll bring my wife. And this, you know, currying favor with the devil, essentially kind of thing. Right. When you see that, you say, okay, just let's talk about what's going on in Epstein's mind. He's very, very powerful according to the world. He has all this money according to the world. But he doesn't feel powerful, because if he did, would he behave in this way? Would he have people curry favor with him? You see what I'm saying? There's a hole in that bucket.
- [159:46]
A
He's the kid from Coney island who came from nothing and was told he couldn't run in these crews and said, I'll show you, and also happen to have a sickness with it that then was used as a skill for bad. To get intelligence on people and them over.
- [160:00]
B
Yeah. Well said.
- [160:01]
A
Yeah.
- [160:01]
B
And I think there's a similar story for every kind of bully that's out there.
- [160:05]
A
I agree.
- [160:05]
B
The ones we think are powerful, they don't feel powerful. And that's why.
- [160:09]
A
That's it. That's it. Real quick, Julia. Can I just use the bathroom? We'll be right.
- [160:13]
B
Can you. You're asking me if you can use your own bathroom?
- [160:15]
A
I'm gonna use the bathroom. All right. We'll be right back. You know what I was thinking about earlier, like, 30 minutes ago when we were talking about ideas, I forgot to bring it up. You ever hear Rick Rubin talk about and I'll definitely kind of mess up. The way he phrased it was probably better. But talk about, like, when the universe want something to happen. Like when you're working on something creatively so hard and, like, so locked in, and the pieces start coming together. And then you put together this part. Maybe you're making a song. You put together this vocal right here, and then you come up with the 808 over here. And then suddenly you're like, oh, I could do a guitar. And the second you put something in there, it just happens to line up perfectly and timed like it was meant to be.
- [160:58]
B
Yes.
- [160:59]
A
What is that?
- [161:00]
B
I know. I mean, I Mean, I don't know. I mean, like, I know how that is.
- [161:06]
A
I've experienced it plenty of times creating stuff and editing things, and I'm like, oh my God. And then every time something great happens afterwards.
- [161:14]
B
Yeah.
- [161:14]
A
Like you put it out and people feel it and they're like, yes.
- [161:17]
B
So the, the guy. So I. That was my experience when I was writing my book recently. It just came to me and I would just write a chapter and it just came out and that was like, boom, boom. Right. It just wrote itself, which isn't always my experience. But. So Mahali Csiks at Mahali, that guy who's a researcher, I think he was at University of Chicago, he called it flow, this idea of being in the flow. But when you were talking about it so passionately, it made me want to know, like, do you. Did you. Did you ever work on music?
- [161:47]
A
So in the editing that I would do, I did that. And whenever I talk, like our friend Mikey Condolian's and a brilliant musician, whenever I talk with guys like that, they're like, you're a musician, right? I'm like, no.
- [161:58]
B
Yeah.
- [161:58]
A
To like, well, you're not. I'm like, I know, like in another life, I really should have been. It's just like some things that you're just very auditory. I feel music very viscerally. I know, I know I can't explain it in words, but like, the only reason I exist, the only reason this show exists is because when no one was making shorts of podcasts, I did it and I like invented how to do it. And I would go crazy viral. But I would spend. I have some OCD myself. I would spend on a 33 second clip. I'd spend 35 hours on it. And I did every single cut perfectly. I would re engineer songs. Like, I remember taking that song with Pop Smoke and Dua lipa for a 27 and a half second clip for Andrew Bustamante back in May 2022, where like the. The song was called Demeanor and there would. There was like, I want to say 4 second bars on it. I don't even think I measured what the bars were. I could just feel where it was to where it would change to too many layers of music that would drown out the words for what I was doing on the instrumental at like the 16 second, 17 second mark. So like I took bars from the third verse and put it on the end of the chorus to make it loop so that it would end on like a perfect, perfect Uptone going into a down. So it's like, satisfying. You know what I mean?
- [163:20]
B
Yeah.
- [163:20]
A
And it's like, if my music producer friends watch me do this, they'd be like, that was, like, painful to watch, the tools you're using to do this. But they'd be like, wow, it worked.
- [163:28]
B
Yeah.
- [163:28]
A
You know?
- [163:29]
B
Yeah.
- [163:29]
A
So there's, like, something there. But no, like, I. I have sat with guys who are brilliant musicians, play multiple, multiple different instruments and. And can feel things and actually put it to work. And it's like, the most. I. I just. I love sitting there watching it. It's the most beautiful thing to say.
- [163:46]
B
Yeah. So what it makes me think of, the way you describe it is something that I haven't thought of before. And so I'm excited about this idea. This is fun.
- [163:54]
A
That's good.
- [163:55]
B
Let's go with it. It's very good because you said I would be teaching you, but I think you're teaching me in the same deal.
- [164:02]
A
I got to get that on. I'm gonna. Let's roll that right there. Tell my dad I'm not a loser.
- [164:07]
B
Let's go. Go. I'm sure your dad doesn't think. He does.
- [164:11]
A
Take a moment.
- [164:12]
B
He's a fan. So there's this. I'm going to use some props.
- [164:14]
A
Sure.
- [164:15]
B
So we have these two water glasses. Okay. There's a way of thinking about time where everything that happens as an event is equal in its status. You know, that little butterfly flutters its wings is equivalent to the World Trade Centers being bombed or whatever or being run into by your place. Another way to think about time is there's these landmark events that kind of are going to happen, and there's other events that are optional. So, like, this optional. Like, if you think about the future, like, if. Let's say it's before 9 11, it's the day before 9 11. All these people are having dreams about something happening. And people are having, like, just a ridiculous number of people are having these experiences of planes going into buildings or all sorts of things. Right. My sister, an artist, she paints a picture of planes going to a building and building, two buildings, the fire bursting out of the building, and dollar sign in the corner, and a guy with a turban on. She's like, I happen to paint this. I'm like, oh, that's interesting. So it's like, right. But there are plenty of people who have Frank precognitions of 9 11. So it feels like it sort of exists out there as a landmark in time, like it's gonna happen. So imagine this is 9 11, and here's. This is the end of the Berlin Wall, the fall of the Berlin.
- [165:33]
A
So for people listening, not watching, I just want to say Julia's pointing to the red cup is 9 11.
- [165:38]
B
Yeah.
- [165:39]
A
But there's some people just on audio and then a water glass right next to it is the Berlin Wall.
- [165:44]
B
Okay, go ahead. So the Berlin Wall falls, and then the idea of this sort of theory of time is that this falls, that has to happen. But how we get as a world from the Berlin wall falling to 911 is up to us. It's like if you had the, you know, I don't know, the Sears Tower in Chicago and Millennium park, you could go many different ways between those two things.
- [166:05]
A
Yes.
- [166:06]
B
And none of those are set in stone, but these landmarks are set in stone. So what it made me think about. I know this sounds like it doesn't relate at all.
- [166:12]
A
No, it's great, keep going.
- [166:13]
B
But what it made me think of when you were talking with such passion about that. I know that experience where it all comes together and it's like, I don't know where this is coming from, is that you're. What you're, you're. What, what you are being drawn it towards is one of those landmarks. So your demeanor clip is one of those landmarks. Yeah, it's like. And who knows, you use shitty tools to make it, but it doesn't matter because it exists sort of in space, time, as a thing. Right. And. And so that when you ride that creativity train and you're, you know, you're like, it feels exciting because you're getting close to the landmark work, because you really are, but you're doing it in your own way.
- [166:52]
A
Yeah. You know, but it's important, the example you're using here too, because you use two world events. Right. So Berlin, what were you saying? Berlin Wall. When it came down or when it came down? When it came down. Right. Positive event, 9 11, negative event.
- [167:07]
B
Right.
- [167:07]
A
So the butterflies are flapping their wings of a bunch of different things that we make choices on at a micro level and macro levels. Humanity between causes. Something like that. And then on a more simple, personal, beautiful scale, if you're looking at just a creative idea, you do this thing, you do that thing, you do that thing. You fail at this, you do good at this, you fail at this, you do good at that. And then essentially you land on this thing that's like, oh, wow, that changed everything for me.
- [167:30]
B
Right. It's almost like there's a gravitational field around the thing and it's pulling you in from wherever you are. It doesn't have to worry about where you are. You're going to get pulled in as a field kind of like this.
- [167:40]
A
There's.
- [167:40]
B
It's gonna happen and when you get close, there's all these sort of senses of like something feels different, etc. Gives me chills. Because it can be both positive and negative.
- [167:50]
A
Gives me chills too. So you don't think I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding some of it too? You're not saying the future is predetermined the way I am interpreting it. You're saying the future has a bunch of. Of predetermined possibilities. And the way that we act on the road there is what determines those possibilities. Sorry if that was a little too meta.
- [168:16]
B
No, no, no, it wasn't. No, no. I just, I got distracted by thought in the middle. Can you say it again?
- [168:21]
A
So the future is not predetermined, but there are a bunch of what you might call predetermined possibilities. Could be infinite.
- [168:30]
B
Yeah.
- [168:31]
A
That exist. That our actions collectively on the road there end up deciding which it's going to be.
- [168:40]
B
Oh, that's interesting. I'm not saying that, but I think that's. That could be true. Okay, what, what I, what this would suggest is that. These are sort of predetermined. Like, it's almost like there's the rules of the game and there's, you know, this is. The bear is going to jump out of the cave at the particular time that is going to happen. Happen. And it's how you manage that that affects, you know, the way the game ends up going.
- [169:09]
A
Right.
- [169:09]
B
But that the key thing is that there's not just one person in the game. Like in this, in the story of the creativity thing, you're creating something that exists in the world as something that affects other people.
- [169:22]
A
Yes.
- [169:23]
B
It's not just like, oh, I made this in my bathtub and now I'm going to run it down the drain.
- [169:27]
A
I never shared it.
- [169:28]
B
Right. Yeah, yeah. And so that's the nature of these things is they affect people. And so anything that affects people has, has this kind of power. And it's not just you who's doing it, even because you're working with a team, like. Right. I mean, you were working with like,
- [169:46]
A
you were just me.
- [169:47]
B
Yeah. But you're not the same person as Dua Lipa.
- [169:49]
A
Right. I like how you think. That's right. That's right.
- [169:54]
B
So you needed her to exist. That's part of your team. You see. So the team is extended. Right. Right. And so I. That. So I think that we tend to think of the unit of success as the single individual and the single lifetime, and that is sort of a tragedy of modern life, because it has reinforced that, like, yes, you can, you know, get your Amazon delivery, and you can, you know, live in your house, and you could be okay and work from home. And it feels like the unit of success is your lifetime and this individual person, because that's the story that you're exposed to, and it feels like you don't need all these other people. You don't realize who's on your team.
- [170:34]
A
Yeah, they all cause that. Right?
- [170:36]
B
Yeah. The Amazon driver and the guy in the rainforest who picked the fruit that you just ordered from Amazon or whatever it is. Right.
- [170:40]
A
Someone delivered this mic.
- [170:42]
B
Yeah, exactly. And made it.
- [170:43]
A
Yep.
- [170:44]
B
Yeah. And this table. And so I made this table. You did.
- [170:48]
A
I swear to God. Me and Danny Jones. Yeah.
- [170:51]
B
Did Jim Gaffigan help you? No, because it's, you know, Jim Gaffigan does.
- [170:55]
A
I'm familiar with who he is.
- [170:57]
B
Yeah. Does. Isn't he the. Who am I thinking of? Am I thinking of the guy who's the guy on Parks and Rec who does the woodwork?
- [171:05]
A
I definitely don't know. Can we Google that thief?
- [171:07]
B
He has this whole wood workshop. And, like, when he's. He's, like, very successful woodworker, but also is this amazing comedian.
- [171:14]
A
No. Danny Jones.
- [171:15]
B
Nick Offerman.
- [171:16]
A
Offerman.
- [171:16]
B
That's who I met. Yeah.
- [171:18]
A
Yeah. Now, Danny Jones and me went to Home Depot and then came here and built this sucker right in here.
- [171:23]
B
Right. So then you had the help of all the Home Depot people and everyone.
- [171:26]
A
That's right.
- [171:27]
B
Trees and everything. So it. It's. It's acknowledging that this area around the landmark is filled with other people and other lifetimes. In other words, like, your children are gonna, you know, be working towards similar goals as you, probably, in terms of good in the world, as long as
- [171:47]
A
they do what they want to do.
- [171:48]
B
Yeah. But in a meta level, in terms of good in the world, they probably will. And cross your fingers.
- [171:55]
A
I definitely hope so.
- [171:57]
B
Yeah. And. And they're in there, too. And so we. I think, as a culture, we need to get back to this idea of it's not just my little life.
- [172:06]
A
Yeah.
- [172:06]
B
You know.
- [172:07]
A
Yeah, that's a great point. Well, I had put a bookmark in what you were saying about remote viewing, because we're talking a lot about different psychic. So you mentioned, just very casually right there, I might add, that you're like, yeah, I've done Some remote viewing myself. So I guess the first question is, and by the way, for people who aren't familiar with what remote viewing is, I'll have you explain that in a second. But after you explain that, the first question would be, when did you first have exposure to what remote viewing was and what was the nature of that?
- [172:40]
B
So, you know, because I don't know what we were doing in those rooms that I would go in and dread in the Soar thing, it's possible that was my first exposure to remote viewing. I have a feeling that it might have been my first sort of conscious waking choice. My own intention to be exposed to it was when I was writing this book, the Premonition Code, with Teresa Chung, and I felt like I didn't know. I wanted to train people in the book how to do precognition. And the only way I thought that could work would be if I trained them to do precognitive remote viewing. So that's remote viewing where the answer is in the future. And what you're trying to. Remote viewing is, by the way, getting information about. About anything that's distant in space and. Or time. So it's not the same as, like, sketching this cup because it's right here, right now know. Right. But it might be the same as sketching this cup. If I tried to sketch it yesterday and I asked myself, try to draw the things that'll be on the table when you talk to Julian Dorie. Right, Right. So that's precognitive remote viewing. That if I had done that, I didn't.
- [173:49]
A
That's good.
- [173:49]
B
Yeah. That would have freaked me out. Yeah. Okay. So remote viewing was. Is a name that's given to, like, a mix of psychic capacities that includes precognition, telepathy, clairvoyance. I think a little bit of psychokinesis thrown in there. Some people throw in some, like, mediumship capacities. But the intelligence community, slash defense intelligence community, created the name Remote Viewing for it along with Ingo Swann. Or like, maybe Ingo Swan created it.
- [174:25]
A
He was Project Story and all that.
- [174:27]
B
Yeah, yeah. All that stuff. You've probably talked about that before, right?
- [174:29]
A
A little bit, yeah. Not as much as you would think.
- [174:32]
B
Yeah.
- [174:32]
A
We should cover a little more because it's so fascinating.
- [174:35]
B
Yeah. So Ingo Swann was this New York artist, gay guy, and the CIA who started Project Stargate and ended it. And they started it in 1978 and ended it in 1995.
- [174:49]
A
It was so successful that they decided to walk out, walk off on top.
- [174:53]
B
Well, what's funny about their ending? The document that ended it that was commissioned by Congress, was that at least five times? Four or five. I think it's five times in there. They say, well, we don't know about this remote viewing stuff, but precognition sure seems to work. Okay.
- [175:10]
A
Tomato, tomato.
- [175:12]
B
That can't be useful. So, Yeah, I. Yeah. So anyway, I know some of the folks who. Who were some of the original remote viewing guys on social media.
- [175:23]
A
Like Joe McMonicle.
- [175:24]
B
Like Joe. He's wonderful. You should have him on.
- [175:27]
A
I'd love to.
- [175:27]
B
Yeah, you should. Especially because he's just like. He jumped out of so many helicopters. He's got such a bad back. It's hard for him.
- [175:35]
A
Yeah.
- [175:36]
B
So it would be great to have him on.
- [175:37]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [175:39]
B
Paul Smith, another great guy. And both of them, I think, still teach remote viewing.
- [175:45]
A
And how do you teach remote viewing? What is this like?
- [175:49]
B
Yeah, so I was gonna.
- [175:50]
A
For people who are very skeptical out there, like, what's the science of how you would teach it and how it even works in your brain?
- [175:56]
B
Okay. There is no science of how to teach it.
- [175:59]
A
Okay.
- [175:59]
B
Period. I mean, like, people just try different things. And the best. I shouldn't say no science.
- [176:07]
A
I'd be like, look at it. You can't see it. Come on.
- [176:14]
B
Ingo was very precise about how he taught it to his people that he was contracted to teach you to. But everyone teaches it differently. I teach it differently, but I don't think it's been well studied. It's like many of these things, you know, the intelligence community does this just like every other organization. Right. They find something that works and they're like, that's how we're doing it. It. And so there's no continuous improvement or science of it. Right.
- [176:43]
A
Which is a big problem that we know of publicly, though.
- [176:47]
B
That we know of publicly.
- [176:48]
A
Right, right. Sometimes, yeah. They may really be looking at it back there and being like, yeah, now we're.
- [176:54]
B
That's all doing any work on it. Yeah, yeah, they may. But from the outside, it appears that, you know, this is the best they've got. Now, when I first started learning about the intelligence community, I assumed that everything that they would put onto the outside was, like, the worst, just to make them look really bad. Like, oh, yeah, we only know how to do this. But then they really know how to do zippy, amazing things. But I really think a lot of the time I'm wrong and they're really behind where I thought they were.
- [177:21]
A
Really?
- [177:22]
B
Yeah.
- [177:22]
A
It gives you that idea because I Was talking to dolphins in 91.
- [177:27]
B
Yeah. Then where did it get them?
- [177:31]
A
Seen some of these dolphins? I don't know. I'm just saying they swim pretty far too.
- [177:36]
B
I don't know. They tried a lot of things, but. No, where that comes from is I read this document that my friend that I was introduced to, probably the most influential person I know in the intelligence community, Carmen Medina. She used to be the deputy director of CIA's Analysis Analytic Directorate. And I said, I read this document that you worked on about if it's a public document, about behavioral analysis, like how people work and how we can do analysis to understand social behavior. And I said, it just seems remedial. Like, everything you're saying in there is something that would occur to me maybe 10 years ago. And is this really the state of the art? And she's like, yep. And I'm like, are you sure you're not saying this shit to make people think you're stupid and you're not really doing these other things? And she's like. Like, nope. And I believe her because she's, like, an outspoken advocate. She spent her career trying to get the intelligence community to. To get more technologically advanced.
- [178:41]
A
Yeah. I. I always think about the compartmentalization aspect of it, though, too.
- [178:45]
B
Yeah.
- [178:45]
A
Because it's like, even look at the Pentagon. Right. From guys that I've talked to, some of which I think they say is just PR and other things, I'm like, maybe there's something there. One thing that is a common thread that totally makes sense is how, you know, they'll put four guys in a skiff to work on this one thing over here.
- [179:05]
B
Yeah.
- [179:06]
A
And then four guys over there to work on this. And even, like, the Defense. The head of Defense, Secretary of Defense, doesn't even know what's going on in, like, five of these places.
- [179:14]
B
Yeah, No, I understand. I mean, I get it. And also, she was talking about analysis, which is way different than operations sense.
- [179:22]
A
Yeah.
- [179:23]
B
So, like, maybe in an analysis, they really are behind the times because they hire a bunch of lawyers and stuff,
- [179:28]
A
or they don't feed them what they need to be able to do their job to the 100. You know what I mean?
- [179:33]
B
Yeah. Maybe. Let me.
- [179:34]
A
Need information to be able to analyze.
- [179:36]
B
Right, Right. So, yeah. No, So I don't know all those things, but the Stargate program was an attempt to meet Russia basically halfway. They were. They were. Were creating psychic spies that could get information without leaving the room, which is a great way to spy, because Russia was. Yeah. And so. Or at least we decided they were, but it turns out they were and, and have ever since they didn't end their program. It's a great way to get information if you can. You don't, you know, you're not risking any lives. Yeah. And so we, we ended up starting that in the late 70s. It goes along the same sort of time frame as Soar and Gate. I think it's really interesting that Stargate and Soar Gate are only one letter difference, but that could just be my conspiracy brain thinking or not.
- [180:26]
A
I don't think so. Yeah, I mean they were, they were
- [180:29]
B
doing goofy MK Ultra and stuff, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. It was very successful. It was a successful program that. And then that got declassified in 1995 and then people went around starting to train people to do it.
- [180:54]
A
And do you think everyone's capable of doing it?
- [180:56]
B
I think that the, the way that people teach people remote viewing now everyone's capable of capable. 95% of people are capable of doing it to some extent. It's kind of like musical ability. 95% of people can carry a tun or hum a song. Right. Or follow a rhythm, clap to a song. I think there's about 5% of people who are just what they call a music. They just can't, they just don't got it.
- [181:26]
A
Yeah.
- [181:27]
B
And I think that's the same here. I think it's about the same distribution. I think about 5% of people just don't have it.
- [181:32]
A
But saying 95% of people may have the ability to see something that is in a different time and space, perceive something.
- [181:40]
B
I wouldn't call it seeing because it's usually in your mind's eye or in your mind, mind's ear. So. Yeah, and I think that the training helps because it's organizing you to pay attention to these sort of intuitions that come up that are, you know, we usually dismiss, like, I don't know, I just thought of my mother, I don't know why kind of thing. So it, it can help with that, but it really helps if you have a gift. So the, the training can really help you organize things if you already have a gift. And I think just like music about, about 5 to 15% of people are really gifted at this stuff.
- [182:15]
A
What goes into being gifted? We talked about one example of say non verbal autistic kids. But you know, for someone who's not verbal, who's not a non verbal autistic and you know, could be my next door neighbor, what do you find makes them more gifted or predisposed? To being more gifted to have some psychic abilities, if you will.
- [182:35]
B
So there's. There's two things or two things that I believe that we know about. One is. Well, one I know that we know about because it's from my own work. The other, I believe the data. There's something called openness, which is a psychological construct. Have you heard of, like the Big Five Inventory Personality test?
- [182:57]
A
Yes, yes, yes. Someone's talked about that on the podcast.
- [183:00]
B
Yeah, it spells ocean Openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. So these are the five sort of factors that have been considered. Like, ooh, they'll just. If you know all these, you can understand someone's personality. Not really, but, like, that's how people think about it. So there's something called openness, which is your ability to, like, you're very open. I'm very open. The ability to get new ideas and not immediately reject them. Yeah, so that's one that's pretty clearly related to this. Another is your ability to feel unconditional love. And the reason I know that is I started studying that because people who I taught remote viewing to back when I was teaching remote viewing, and then remote viewers that I talked to had done it for a long time. They all have this sort of spiritual sense and they don't usually like to talk about it. It can sound woo. Like you're not already woo enough as
- [183:59]
A
a remote viewer and they're not worried about that. What does this mean?
- [184:02]
B
Well, this is. This feeling of. This is feel of. All is one. Like the. Like they. They sort of sense this love in this information substrate. They sort of sense like. Like everything is proceeding as it is meant to be, even if we don't understand the plan.
- [184:23]
A
Are they. Is this from them reaching some form of. I don't know if it would be described this way, but this is just the way I'm picturing some sort of meditative state that allows them to access, say, a spiritual realm.
- [184:36]
B
When you do remote viewing, you however you can, you get into a state where you can access this information. So some trainer will say the best way to do it is meditation. Another trainer says, listen to loud rock and roll on your headphones. Another trainer says, dance, do chai chi. So different trainers will tell you to do it in different ways, but the best advice is find the way that allows you to access this information and then go to that way, do that thing. Right. Because for each person, it'll be different. So really training remote viewing, in my view, is about just getting a student to practice, because the more they practice, the more they're going to see, okay, this didn't work. I was doing things this way. I was calming down. I need to get more excited. I was getting excited. I need to calm down, down. And so the student needs to figure out through trial and error how to get there, because no one else really knows. But when they figure out how to get there, then they're in that place you were talking about before, where the creativity, they're next to something. The gravitational field of the target, if you will, which is the thing that you're trying to describe, pulls you in and you feel, okay. I feel like I'm on target. It's almost like. Like, you know that those. I love docking videos. Docking videos, big space videos.
- [185:56]
A
Oh, they're so cool.
- [185:58]
B
Like, oh, you think it's not going to go? And then it goes.
- [186:00]
A
You know, the interstellar stuff.
- [186:02]
B
Yeah, yeah, it feels like that. So that puts you in this space of, like, oneness or something, this feeling of, like, rightness, like coming home and that people would talk about that and how much, much less reactive and less dramatic their life has been since they've continued to practice remote viewing. So I decided to study. Like, maybe if you actually just ask people how much unconditional love they're feeling, you can find out what the. How this is related to their accuracy.
- [186:34]
A
Yeah. Can we dig into that more? Because you said that a few seconds ago, Unconditional, that's just not something that I would have associated with the ability to have remote viewing. So when you say people's unconditional love, how do you even determine how someone defines that for themselves?
- [186:49]
B
Okay, so we talked about universal love being that which connects and this universal informational substrate that's external to a person that's, like, out there, Right? Force of nature, whatever you want to call it, the way things are. Unconditional love is the human response to that connection. That's how I'm defining it. So what unconditional love feels like to a human, and this is an emotional feeling, is I can love others and feel loved by others and myself. I can love and feel loved without anything needing to change. There's no conditions at all. And so that's the feeling that people were having when they were nearing the target and that I would have too. I would notice it. It's like, oh, there's nothing needs to change. And the target could be you're trying to look into a perpetrator for someone's murder. Right. Like it's not like, it's not like, it's always like sunshine. It's often, often not sunshine. Right. But there's this feeling of being on target that has nothing to do with what the target is. And that tells you that's a feeling of unconditional. Nothing needs to change. I love everything exactly as it is. Let's just report what it is. And so I asked people to just rank before they did a precognitive remote viewing task. Just here's a definition of unconditional love. Rank how you're feeling right now relative to this definition. And then I split people into two groups, high and low. Are they feeling high, unconditional love and low. And you could see in their results in terms of accuracy, statistically significant difference between the ones who are high who are better than the and then the ones who are low who are at chance.
- [188:39]
A
How would you score someone as low? What kinds of things would you be looking for?
- [188:43]
B
I just made up a survey that says here's a definition of unconditional love. How do you. How much do you feel this? Excuse me? How much do you feel this towards yourself, towards stranger, towards family and friends? Towards the device on which you're taking the survey. Right. And so there's just four, four or five questions. And they was all self report. So they could lie and say, oh, I'm feeling love or whatever, but their self report of love correlated with their accuracy. So in other words, if they lied, then maybe lying about feeling unconditional love, you know, fake it until you make it really helps. And then I did the experiment again. That first experiment was exploratory. It was an analysis that I hadn't planned on some old data. The second experiment was confirmatory, which means I planned the analysis because I had this result and then I showed it again. So now I'm pretty convinced that one of the training pieces ought to be learning to experience unconditional love so that you can have more accurate remote viewing. And I really, I want to talk with special forces guys about this. I know you have a lot on your show. Yeah. Because, you know, being they're very interested in remote viewing in the general spidey sense thing, because if you could figure out where a person is in a building that you're about to attack. Right. It would be really nice to be able to go through those rooms and know exactly what's going on.
- [190:09]
A
Right. One thing I've had in my head while you're talking here though, I just want to clarify before you go on with The Special Forces example, from some of the conversations I've had with people talking about remote viewing who have some knowledge on, on things that have happened or have analyzed and stuff like that, it doesn't necessarily mean that like when you remote view something accurately, you get the perfect latitude and longitude coordinates of this exact rocket firing at this exact place or whatever. It's like an accurate result may be, you know, there's a drone attack coming somewhere in the Islamabad area.
- [190:44]
B
Yeah.
- [190:44]
A
We don't know exactly where, but it's somewhere over there. So start looking at that airspace or something. Something like that.
- [190:49]
B
Absolutely.
- [190:50]
A
Otherwise these guys would just be winning the lottery every time they remote viewed.
- [190:54]
B
Yeah, effectively, but that would be very helpful. So like if, if you got five remote viewers on this and they're sketching out the building before you do an attack the next day, and three of the five are showing a person in the lower right corner, you know, relative to the street, maybe you go there, you know, maybe that's a priority.
- [191:17]
A
So they're accessing something, like we said, that is not in their same time and space, but with the emphasis on time, they can be seeing things that have yet to occur.
- [191:29]
B
Yes, that's precognitive remote viewing. And it's the most, in my view, the most useful. And it's been. Yeah, right. I mean, that's kind of the stuff you want to know is the future. I mean, it's been used if you look at some of the declassified, if you go to the CIA library and you look at some of the declassified Stargate, you just search for Stargate, you can find some declassified remote viewing sessions. So the transcripts, you can learn a lot from them. And one of them suggests to me that this kind of precognitive remote viewing has been used very actively.
- [192:07]
A
So
- [192:09]
B
like back in the late 70s, from the beginning, when remote viewers were being asked about an event that wouldn't occur for another two months, but they were specifically asked to go to that time and place.
- [192:24]
A
So do you think that it's possible, and this in some ways flies in the face of what you were saying 10 minutes ago about some of these intelligence people you talk to seem to be like, what the. We can't even figure this out. We don't have enough information. But do you think it's possible that within some of the compartmentalization structures that I talked about, there have been powers utilized to already predetermine a future? And that could get really dense and dark. But, but from a 30,000 foot in the Air view. Do you think something like that has already possibly happened?
- [193:05]
B
I think that the predetermining the future is beyond our control. I think that's above our pay grade. I think that we pretend to think that we can do that. But because of the way I think about the way the universe works with this informational substrate sort of bubbling up and informing events and having these landmarks in time, it's more like there might be. Be a little cadre of people, you know, about whom no one else knows, whose job is to figure out what the landmarks in time are. Which may feel like predetermining a future for sure, but is different than that. It's more like noticing what the landmarks are.
- [193:45]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we keep talking about this from like the trying to see the future perspective, but of course, like, I always think about it, it like everyone else out there in the reverse as well. And you think like, oh, would we be able to time travel? Yeah, back. And that's something I've always been obsessed with. But I remember, like, when I had Mitch okaku in. In May 2023, he was cool. He was. He was. It was amazing to talk with him. Really cool guy. But, you know, when he talks about time travel, he was like, if I went back and changed John Wilkes Booth on April 14, 1865, it would not change the future now. It would change another tributary of the river and another outcome of the time. So what he was saying is if we have time travel, we wouldn't even know it because it would be creating a new. I'm going to put a term on it just to make it simple. A new layer of a quote unquote, like multiverse kind of thing, where another reality exists where John Wilkes Booth did not successfully kill Abraham Lincoln.
- [194:46]
B
Yeah.
- [194:47]
A
So question being, if we have or if we could. Better way to put it. Figure out time travel. Would it matter for the reality we're
- [194:57]
B
in if we could figure out time travel?
- [194:59]
A
Yeah,
- [195:01]
B
I don't. All right, I'm gonna. I don't love the everywhere all at once interpretation of like this layered thing, partly because it's so not parsimonious, which in the. In science talk means it's just way too much going on. Like, it's just. It doesn't. It's not pretty. Yeah, that's too much. So. But it may be true. Just. I mean, aesthetically, I don't like it could be true. I also notice that it is the most. The multiple worldview or the many worldview, as is the Everett hypothesis. In physics, this is this idea that you make a choice and now you've broken into another universes, you make another choice. You know, there's all these worlds, right? It's often used when physicists don't want to believe that there's retro causality. So often physicists really hate the idea that information could flow backwards in time and you could cause something in the past. And so instead they say, oh, well, you know, either you can, as in your example, but it makes different timelines, or you can't do that at all. And what we have, when we have experiments that suggest that things go backwards in time, really, that's just different timelines going forward in a different way. And so I hear that bias and I think, you know, a really simple way to explain this stuff is just one timeline that has retrocausal effects happening. So we experience something and then later that event is influenced from the future, or maybe as we're experiencing it, it's being influenced from the future, or maybe before we experienced it, it's influenced from the future. And notice I use the word influence and not change. And that's because change means it was one thing and now is something else. But influence means like it was always going to, this was always going to be 9, 11, but it wasn't always going to be two towers. There was just going to be one tower. And then from the future, turns out two towers was somehow important. And so two towers happened, right? So it feels to me the past is pretty malleable. And I don't mean changeable, I mean like influenceable from the future. And so I tell people, like, if you want to influence something, everyone's pushing from the past, like tomorrow, I hope I do well on my final exam or whatever it is, right? You're pushing from the past. You're better off pulling from the future because it's very sparse. Fewer people have figured out that if you sort of put your mind in the future state, you talk to your future self and say, hey, pull me forward towards the thing that, that actually works better. I think it does.
- [197:53]
A
I think you're right about that.
- [197:54]
B
Why do you think I'm right about that?
- [197:56]
A
I think you're right about that because you can actually create a mindset that influences your future, your thought, become who you are. That's a very true thing. It's not woo woo at all. I used to like kind of think, oh, yeah, okay, it is absolutely true. There's science that proves it. I mentioned the, the I forget the guy's name Dr. Masaro Emoto or something like that. D. We can pull it up. I mentioned that doctor who literally studied the way two groups of people talk to themselves. Impacted their cell, impacted them at a cellular level.
- [198:27]
B
He's the water guy, the water crystal guy guy. So he is he the guy who literally takes pictures of maybe water and crystals and the different emotions like that. Like people will think of. I think this is this guy people think of like peace and there's a water crystal and people think of war. My only cons is this that guy. Because my only concern about that is I think it's beautiful work. But also there's. He doesn't have controls. Like he picks. It's almost artistic. Like he picks like, oh, this is a crystal that I'm gonna. You know, I mean, you need to have like a blinded process. Yeah. See Water. Click on that one. The water one. The hidden messages on water.
- [199:06]
A
Right down. I. I'll have to. I'll send you this actual experiment later that he did so you can check it from a scientific perspective. And I'll share it with people as well once I get an answer from Julia on what that is. But there is something even before this. Yeah. He was like. His research suggests that positive self talk and intentions directly impact the body body, which is 60 water. By creating harmonious energy similar to how loving words form beautiful ice crystals. His studies, such as in the hidden messages in water, showed that spoken words like love and gratitude structure water positively, while negative language creates chaotic patterns. And it also matters, the intentionality of what you're saying. If you just wake up and say, I'm gonna say that I'm grateful for everything. Wow. I'm really grateful for everyone. It doesn't do anything because the emotion and the feeling of actual gratitude is. Is not there.
- [199:51]
B
Yeah. It's the inside, you know, it's performative. Yeah.
- [199:53]
A
If. If you will. But either way, like the in. When you look at a lot of other studies and different doctors, I guess we were doing it differently than this. There's something to that, for sure.
- [200:03]
B
Well, for sure. So the part he says about positive self talk and intentions affect your body. There's plenty of data on that. His claim that it's through affecting water and resonance is his claim. And I would have to look at how he stakes his claim on that. Yeah. Okay, we'll look at that. Yeah. But there. But there's no question that if you're. If you sort of create a. In your mind, all you have to do is, you know, create an imaginary
- [200:27]
A
version of yourself, my mind, and my brain.
- [200:29]
B
In your mind. Yeah, I did. All brain.
- [200:31]
A
Yeah.
- [200:32]
B
Create an imaginary version of yourself that pulls you forward into where it is you want to go.
- [200:36]
A
Yes. I've been working on that myself.
- [200:38]
B
Yeah.
- [200:38]
A
Julie, this has been awesome. We're.
- [200:40]
B
Are we done? I feel like we talk for half an hour.
- [200:43]
A
We've been. That's. That's a good thing because it was
- [200:46]
B
almost really three hours.
- [200:47]
A
It was like three hours and ten minutes or something like that.
- [200:49]
B
Oh, my God. This is really fun.
- [200:50]
A
We've been flowing, but thank you so much for not only sharing all your insights, but being vulnerable with your own experiences. I hope this was enjoyable for you.
- [200:59]
B
This is really great. I hope you had a good time.
- [201:01]
A
I did. I did. We'll do it again.
- [201:03]
B
Awesome.
- [201:03]
A
All right, everyone, check out Julia's links down below. We'll link to your website as well as any of your organizations and some of your books as well, so people can check that out. You can enjoy her work, and I'm sure you'll be seeing her again on the show.
- [201:15]
B
Cool. That'd be fun.
- [201:16]
A
Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. What's up, guys? Thanks so much for watching the video. If you have not subscribed, please hit that subscribe button before you leave. As well as leaving a like on the video. It's a huge, huge help. You can join my Patreon via the link in the description, and you can also join my clipping community via the Discord link down below. See you for the next episode.