#439 - “The TRUTH!" - Navy SEAL who K*lled Bin Laden Comes Clean… | Robert O’Neill

Summary

Podcast Summary: Julian Dorey Podcast #439

Episode Title: “The TRUTH!" - Navy SEAL who K*lled Bin Laden Comes Clean... | Robert O’Neill
Date: June 24, 2026
Host: Julian Dorey
Guest: Robert O’Neill

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Episode Overview

This gripping episode explores the life and operations of Robert O’Neill—retired Navy SEAL, best known as the man who killed Osama bin Laden. The discussion is unflinchingly honest, covering the psychological, operational, and personal aspects of special operations, including rare behind-the-scenes perspectives on major military events.

The conversation ranges from the infamous Abbottabad raid to O’Neill's early days, leadership lessons, struggles with PTSD and substance abuse, geopolitics, and the brotherhood (and the fallout) among the SEALs. It also delves into faith, life after war, and the heavy price of service.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rules of Engagement and the Hunt for Bin Laden

• Timecodes: [00:49] – [02:20]
• The conversation begins with banter about intensity and cameras, segueing into details of the Abbottabad raid.
• O’Neill explains how the mission’s intent was clear from the top: capture wasn’t really expected. “If you send SEAL Team Six, we’re killing people. The capture is not happening.” (Robert O’Neill, [01:08])
• ROE (Rules of Engagement) for Bin Laden: "Osama bin Laden is a threat to the United States of America... when you see him—roger that, sir.” (B, [01:16])

2. Wild Firefight on the Pakistan Border

• Timecodes: [03:44] – [16:41]
• O’Neill recounts a harrowing border battle in Pakistan, describing chaos as his small team gets pinned down by enemy fire, including a Chechen with a machine gun.
  • Key leadership/mistake lessons: forgot backup radio batteries, had to cross open terrain under fire to retrieve them ([11:52])
  • Hilarious tension-breakers: “Did you just put in a fresh dip?” … “No, homie, I just freshened up the old one.” ([13:39])
• Air support takes over an hour; the Americans ultimately bomb Pakistani positions, leading to an international incident.
  • “You realize we’re not at war with Pakistan, right? – Yeah, we fucking were today.” ([16:25])

3. Career Origin, Training & Mindset

• Timecodes: [22:31] – [35:29]
• Inspired by a breakup and local Marines, O'Neill joined the Navy after a recruiter happened to be present.
• Learned how to swim after signing to try out for SEAL training.
• Passing SEAL selection and BUD/S:
  • “Regardless of what you've been told, this course is not impossible. People graduate... I'm gonna make you do something really hard, day after day.” ([32:27])
  • The crucial advice: “Wake up, make your bed, brush your teeth—three victories. … When you feel like quitting... Never respond emotionally. Quit tomorrow.” ([32:27])
• Emphasis on present-moment awareness, humor, and self-competition as essential qualities for survival and success.

4. Hell Week & The Power of Mindset

• Timecodes: [34:06] – [36:14]
• Vivid description of the infamous SEAL Hell Week.
  • On mindset: “Don’t make any friends before Wednesday of Hell Week... You’re about to go to war for the first time, and the enemy is all your doubts, all your fears, and everyone back home who told you you couldn't do this.” ([36:04])

5. The Brotherhood, Leadership & The Bin Laden Raid

• Timecodes: [36:35] – [47:40]
• O'Neill describes the tight, competitive, mutually supportive culture at SEAL Team Six.
• McRaven’s pep talk before the raid: “You guys do this every night. This is just a bigger audience.” ([38:16])
• Pre-mission: calling his dad, writing goodbye letters to his daughters, the expectation that this would be a one-way mission ([43:02], [162:01]).

6. Pakistan, Geopolitics & Reflections on War

• Timecodes: [19:19], [52:53], [58:11], [124:28]
• Frank assessment of Pakistan’s duplicity and geopolitical positioning; critique of U.S.-Pakistan relations.
• “I was at war with Pakistan... Both my silver stars are Pakistan.” ([19:30])
• On China's “paper tiger” status, future world wars, the realities and problems of NATO alliances.
• Reflection on occupation, civilian life in war zones, and the inherent messiness and lack of clarity in long-term conflicts.

7. The Bin Laden Raid – Detailed Account

• Timecodes: [77:10] – [98:07]
• Candid, nearly play-by-play breakdown of the raid.
• “What’s the worst that could happen?”—the team had planned for only 30 seconds about a chopper crashing in the yard. That, of course, is exactly what happened. ([76:44])
• Real-time decisions, failed breaches, rapid adaptation, and humor even in crisis (carrying a bottle of urine during the mission).
• On killing Bin Laden: “He had half a second to convince me not to kill him, and he didn't do it.” ([180:59])
• Unscripted acknowledgment of the human cost: “Look down at his two-year-old son... as a father, this kid’s got nothing to do with this. What the fuck are we doing here?” ([88:45])
• Emotional 90-minute flight out—“If I can live for 90 minutes, I get to see my kids.” ([92:23])

8. After the Raid: Publicity, Internal Drama, Truth

• Timecodes: [169:24] – [188:00]
• The media frenzy, the spreading of O’Neill’s identity, and navigating public telling of the story.
• Internal divides among SEALs, defamation lawsuits, and why O’Neill went public.
• On SEAL Team Six culture: “If we worked together, we’d all be millionaires. But that will never happen... I don’t know if it’s ego, or being told we’re special from the very first day, but it’s me, me, me.” ([184:03])
• The toll of betrayal and the difficulty of keeping bonds after such a historic mission.

9. Post-Traumatic Stress, Substance Abuse, and Healing (Ibogaine)

• Timecodes: [69:27] – [74:38]
• O’Neill’s struggle with “demonic” alcoholism, the role of Ibogaine therapy.
• “For a lot of veterans, myself included, post traumatic stress doesn’t happen right away. It’s about seven years. … And it’s not the ‘Oh my God, I almost died.’ It’s what if I did something different?” ([71:38])
• Use of plant-based medicine for rewiring mental health.

10. Faith and Philosophy

• Timecodes: [63:39] – [67:21]
• Returns to reading the Bible as history, wrestling with forgiveness, guilt, and religious meaning.
• “Jesus, the man, knowing this is going to happen and goes through with it... All he could do was forgive them... Then he rose from the dead. People saw it.” ([64:54])
• Embracing faith and humility after a career of violence.

11. Reflections on War, Morality, and Human Nature

• Timecodes: [164:51] – [165:31]
• The inevitability of war, the persistence of human conflict.
• “Humanity could exist peacefully as if it weren’t for humanity.” ([164:16])
• The need for personal clarity, boundaries, and healing (“Just go outside with your daughter and act like puppies. That’s peace.”).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mission Clarity:
  “If you send SEAL Team Six, we’re killing people. The capture is not happening.” — O’Neill [01:08]

• On Leadership Under Fire:
  “Change the fucking batteries, Tony.” — O’Neill [12:07]

• Humor in Combat:
  “Did you just put in a fresh dip?” … “No, homie, I just freshened up the old one.” — O’Neill [13:39]

• First Real Combat Reflection:
  “I got dumped by a girl... Then I wanted to be a Marine.” — O’Neill [22:33]

• Bin Laden Raid – Human Element:
  “I just moved Bin Laden, looked at his two-year-old son... as a father, this kid’s got nothing to do with this. What the fuck are we doing here?” — O’Neill [88:45]

• On PTSD and Regret:
  “You start to think, what if I met him somewhere else? Like, he's a bad guy, but I've had lunch with the Taliban... Everything that ever mattered to this dude is gone because I decided to shoot him.” — O’Neill [72:04]

• On Brotherhood:
  “That’s why I love the human element of everything... I know his kids, and his favorite shitty joke, I know what beer he drinks right before he dies.” — O’Neill [144:33]

• On the Post-Raid Fallout:
  “If we worked together, we'd all be millionaires. But that will never happen... Just trust me.” — O’Neill recounting Red Squadron’s Wyman Howard [184:03]

• Philosophy of War:
  “Humanity could exist peacefully as if it weren’t for humanity.” — O’Neill [164:16]

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Select Timestamps for Major Segments

• SEAL Rules of Engagement & Start of Bin Laden Raid: [00:49] – [02:20]
• Pakistan Border Gunfight Story: [03:44] – [16:41]
• Why O'Neill Joined the Military + Training: [22:31] – [35:29]
• Surviving SEAL Training & Hell Week: [32:27] – [36:14]
• Prepping and Emotion Before the Raid: [38:16], [43:02], [162:01]
• Abbottabad Raid Step-by-Step: [77:10] – [98:07]
• Aftermath, Debrief, and Going Public: [169:24] – [188:00]
• On PTSD and Ibogaine: [69:27] – [74:38]
• Faith, Forgiveness, and Reflection: [63:39] – [67:21]
• War’s Toll and Brotherhood: [186:00] – [187:37]
• Final Philosophical Notes: [164:51] – [166:01]

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Conclusion

The episode is a raw, darkly humorous, and frequently profound look into the operational, psychological, and human side of modern special operations. O’Neill’s candor about violence, regret, brotherhood, faith, and healing elevates the interview far beyond a recounting of famous events. Those seeking a surface-level thrill will find action; those looking for the burdens and lessons of war will find honesty and wisdom.

Flow and Tone:
Conversational, unfiltered, blending gallows humor with deadly seriousness, always moving from self-deprecation to deep moral reflection.

Recommended for:
Military history enthusiasts, those interested in modern warfare, high-stakes leadership, personal growth, post-war recovery, and anyone wanting an authentic account of special operations from someone who lived it.

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Summary prepared by AI podcast summarizer. For deeper appreciation, listen to the full episode for context, nuance, and O'Neill’s unmistakably sharp wit.

Transcript

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[A]

I was looking in the ring camera when you got here. You're like kind of intense, just staring because no one knows where to look. I was like, damn, that might be the last thing Osama bin Laden ever saw. You gotta keep that kind of crazy.

[B]

You gotta keep that.

[A]

That's a good one.

[B]

You were like, oh, post that. You got to say, you got exclusive of Bin Launde Dream camera.

[A]

I, I, you know what? That's good.

[B]

Do that.

[A]

So, yeah, he was wearing a body cam at the time.

[B]

No, no one did. No one had anything.

[A]

Bin Laden wasn't wearing one, though.

[B]

He wouldn't wear a vest. I thought he was okay. I was gonna kill him anyway.

[A]

I, I know you were, but.

[B]

Yeah, well, we have. If you send SEAL Team Six, we're killing people.

[A]

That's pretty much it.

[B]

The capture is not, not having it.

[A]

So that was just more for like diplomatic cover.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, well, when we, and we, we should talk about this or. Unless we record now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we're on.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. Oh, good. Oh, good.

[A]

Yeah, we're rolling.

[B]

We talked to. I was saving. Good. Now, now, now I could start telling the truth. No, when we were going after bin Laden, Chesney, who was. He had Cairo, the dog. The book's called no Ordinary Dog. And he was, Anyway, he was there and we had just finished out in Nevada. We were talking to Admiral Mike Mullen was there. He's chairman of the Joint Chiefs. And she's actually, or we're right there. We both kind of said, hey, what are the ROEs, man? What are our rules of engagement on this? And he was for bin Laden, like, what do you, what do you want? And he goes, okay, Osama bin Laden is a threat to the United States of America. So as an American, he's a threat to you. And what happened on 9 11? Osama bin Laden is a physical threat to you. So when you see him like, roger that, sir. Got it. Gotcha. You don't need to incriminate yourself anymore. He was gonna die anyway, right?

[A]

I mean, look, if you went in there and you're like, hey, get these zip ties on. Bin Laden.

[B]

I don't think I carried zip ties.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like that's a waste

[B]

of ounces equal pounds. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna get stuck in Pakistan because I carry too many zip ties.

[A]

But I. I gotta tell you, man, it's. It's crazy to meet you because I remember that night so vividly when they. Yeah, so you, you guys were obviously like six hours out of mission at that point when it went public to

[B]

us, but, yeah, that's why it's May 1st. May 2nd. It was May 1st here. May 2nd there.

[A]

What do you mean made second there?

[B]

It was time zones.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

So that's when it was announced here, I think Sunday, May 1st.

[A]

Right, right, right. I missed the May on that. Sorry. But, you know, I remember I'm watching the Phillies Mets Sunday night baseball game, and they're like, we want to step in and seems like we killed bin Laden.

[B]

I was like, what? Yeah.

[A]

And then there was. I don't know if you guys ever got to see this, but there was a guy in Pakistan who had like one of those, like, dad selfie.

[B]

I saw him pictures on Twitter and

[A]

was live tweeting the whole thing.

[B]

He was outside. I was gonna. I could have killed him by that same guy. He was right outside. And I. I thought about him. I've talked about him. He was there. And if Twitter was Twitter, if Twitter was what X is, we would have been compromised. But he's outside with a phone in his face. And I remember thinking, if I'm in Iraq right now, I'm blasting this dude because we just hit that target, he's gonna blow up a bomb. But I'm looking, I'm like, they have no idea. And I mean. And again, that's. That says something about a SEAL Team 6 operator. A lot of guys, like, I can get a free kill, pal. It's like, I'm not going to shoot this dude, but I could. Could be an international incident. I've had a couple of those. My first Silver Star, I bought Pakistan for four hours, three and a half.

[A]

Wait, what happened there?

[B]

Yeah, okay, so back up. I have a. A theory. Now, when the further I got, especially at the CLTM6 level, the more I realized you need to simplify. Don't talk yourself into an ass whoop.

[A]

Open.

[B]

Make it easy. By the time we got to the bin Laden house, it was. How'd you clear it? Well, if the guy in front of me went left, I went right. We just did that over and over. But back in about 08. So a couple years before, one year before Captain Phillips, we're still, you know, bin Laden's a ghost. We're not. We're getting action but nothing huge. So I'm looking for it. And I was running an outstation in Assadabad, Pakistan was like north of Jbad Jalabad on the Konar River. And you get up into the Pest River Valley and you got Korengal Valley and the Shuriak where Marcus Luttrell was rescued. We were up there for that one too. A little survivor. But they were safe out houses in Pakistan. Like a click across, thousand meters across and 2,000 meters across. There's two safe houses in Pakistan because believe it or not, Al Qaeda lives in Pakistan, not in Afghanistan.

[A]

Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five star review. They're both a huge, huge help.

[B]

Thank you. There was one guy left. Abu is the Salma. We did roll him up to the last guy in Afghanistan. That's another funny story. But the house is like, I want to hit these houses. I'm running this out station because we're running sources in and out, trying to get intel to lead to Bin Laden or Zawhir, something like that. And I was like, wait, if we get on the border and have them see us, them being the Taliban or the Pakistanis or the Frontier Corps, which are people we just arm, we give them weapons. The Federal Administered tribal area, the FATA is no man's land. And naturally we being the smartest government in the history of governments, we armed them because they're definitely gonna fight for Jeffersonian democracy in that fucking shithole. Or they don't know what time is. These people, they know the names of their five brothers, but they don't know what the number five means, right? So building schools, they can learn. That's anyway, if they hit us, we can pursue. And the, the ROEs at the time were if you are troops in contact and you have positive visual identification, you can pursue up to 10 clicks inside of Pakistan. So I, I was like, we'll just go up with a small group of Americans and a small group of Pakistanis. We'll wear desert tiger stripe because it's cool. And we're going to take photos because eventually there will be an Instagram. But no, we didn't want to recognize us. So you can shoot. If they shoot at us and don't think we're Americans, they're going to try to overrun us. Then we can pursue. They won't know there's bombers. So we get a long story. Short. Long. Short. Less long. We get to the top, we have some, like, I think there's a Vietnam vet that flew us in. And we're working with the CIA. So the dude running the chief of base was. He had fought on each side of this war since the Mujah Hadeen were funding the Mujah Hadid to fight the Russians in the same spot. So he's all about it. So I had a. Yeah, so we'll get his birds. No, but it doesn't matter. We had a couple of birds. Vietnam guy flew us up there. We insert. We get on top of this mountain. We. We'd been there a while, a number of hours. Night for sure. Because I remember waking up and I was on top of a right on the border of Pakistan, and I woke up on this nest of pit vipers under my thing, and I was actually laughing with the two or three Americans. Oh, look, pit vipers. Thank God. This will be the last thing that happened, the worst thing that happens all day. So we them off, and then we see these Afghan or these dudes. So they're. They're in. In brown pajamas. So they could be Pakistani military, they could be Frontier Corps. They could be straight up mujahideen, Taliban, whatever. So we send the Afghans, our guys down there, and we said, go talk to them. Don't tell them you're with Americans. So there's a handful of us, they go down there, they come back, and what's. What gives? They said, oh, they invited us for tea, and we can come down. Like, that's okay. They're not going to shoot at us. But then these trucks start showing up. So they obviously got on the radio. These trucks are showing up, and they got dudes in the back and they're armed. We're like, all right, we have a little bit of high ground. We're on the border of Pakistan, and then another truck shows up, and it's noon. So it's like, okay, I got. I'm the ground force commander as, like, an E6.

[A]

How many guys you have?

[B]

I think three. I have two Navy SEALs who'd never been in a gunfight. So they're. They weren't SEAL Team 6 guys, so they're SEAL Team 2 guys. They just. They're trained up, but they've never been to war. And then I got a few Afghans. I have two other SF guys, Army Special Forces.

[A]

Not a big group, though.

[B]

We're small, but we want, we think we have the bombs because we have a brand new radio guy who's never called in close air support.

[A]

Yeah, that's promising.

[B]

And so now I'm like, as the guy in charge, I'm like, okay, I think we're just going to leave. If we can get dead space and get down there because they sort of see us, we can call for extract or just something. So we make that call. And I'm with these Afghan and we're spread out because you know if you get hit, you want to have some maneuverability. Don't be in a group. And I got this. I have my backpack with me and I got the radio guys far away from me and I went Afghan with me. And he's never spoken a word of English to me, but he points up the mountain and screams bad guys in English. And so I look up and there's these brown pajamas and they're like, it's scary to watch dudes, how fast they are in flip flops and brown pajamas. And they're trying to get there. They know we're down in this ball. They're trying to get three sides on us. So I need to run to Tony. He's the Seal Team 2 guy and he's carrying the radio because he has never called support. I'm going to probably either do. He's going to do it. I'm going to be there. We were where our gear in lines, first line, second line, third line. And I had hurt your first line. Gears are most important stuff closest to your body. So it's on your belt, it's your kn, it's your dip, whatever your second line gives your second most important stuff. So it's on like h gear. So your magazines, a little bit of water, grenade, third line, gears and backpack. Least important shit, ground pads, leaping bag, extra socks, foot powder, stuff like that. The reason you do it that way, the Vietnam guys told us, because I'd never heard of anyone else doing it, is if you got to run for your life, you can shit. Can it in order. Third line being your least important. Drop the gear. And I'm so my backpacks here. I'm running 100 to 200 meters to Tony. And we're under fire in the daytime, so we need air support because there's a couple of us. So I run over to him and I'm like, here's the deal. We're getting shot at, I think by those first assholes. We're going to call that a checkpoint. Whatever you got, bomb them first and that they'll. Because they don't know there's Americans, because we look like this. And he said, well, we don't have any air support. There's nothing up. There's nothing like, okay, this is pretty shitty. Try to work on that. So we see them running, and they're hitting us with air bursts from their RPGs, like, they're bursting above us. Like. And. And when you're. There's no worse feeling than having someone shoot effective fire at you. And you know your bullets aren't going to reach because now they're at the high ground, and all you can kind of do is get as low as you can. So you're looking for rocks as big as a cup, anything to get low, and shit's just blowing up. And, you know, they're like.

[A]

They're.

[B]

They're maneuvering. Fire maneuvering. We can tell they're trained. And this one dude, this went on for an hour. He can't get any air support. We can't move.

[A]

An hour.

[B]

An hour, we're getting shot at. And a long gunfight. A long gunfight is two minutes. That's a long fight. There's a dude that's starting to concern me because he's shooting a Belfed machine gun. He's maneuvering with his buddy, but he looks like me, so he's got red hair, red beard, he's a white dude, and he's yelling Allahu Akbar, which is God is greater than your God in Arabic. So my thought is, okay, that's a fucking Chechen.

[A]

Yeah, Chechen.

[B]

And so this. Guess what? This day gets to end one of two ways. We're going to win or we're going to fucking die. And this is a save one for yourself moment. I'm not surrendering to him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. And then, like, I'm thinking, and even these weird thoughts of. Because there's explosions and there was a dude that we're with, one of our Afghans who got on a little bit of high ground. And I'm looking at the same dude that didn't speak English. And he gets drilled with an rpg and he falls. Like, he falls. And I remember his hat flew off. Now it's very serious. We just lost our first guy. The weirdest things happen in combat. This dude sits up and he is unhurt.

[A]

Wait, the guy who lost his hat.

[B]

His hat flew off. And he unhurt, and he looks at me and we lock eyes, and he said his second phrase ever in English. He went, okay. Usa. So, like, the craziest shit in combat. And I'm sort of excited. I'm a little. Yeah. And then these two tracers zip in between my. My hands. So the tracers are. Bullets are on fire. There's five real bullets in between and it's more serious. And now I'm back in mortality. Like, do you feel it? What's going to. And then Tony, I got. I got it. I got. I got bombs. We got something. So sweet. Hit that checkpoint. And he said, I can't. The batteries are dead.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Now here's a lesson in leadership. I'm a big believer that micromanagement doesn't help it waste time. But I decided under fire, it's time to micromanage. I said, change the fucking batteries, Tony. He said, I can't. I'm not carrying the spares. You are in the backpack.

[A]

Oh, that. You don't.

[B]

Yeah, I dropped that fucker because I wanted to be a cool guy because I can't carry a backpack. 100. Yeah. So now I got to go get them. So I said, you're going to go

[A]

get the backpack in the middle of the field?

[B]

Yeah, we need this shit.

[A]

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[B]

And I said something, don't tell mom I did this or. And like one of the other seals, he ran off to do some shit. And I'm seeing. I'm like watching Silver Star shit happen with these guys. But now I got to do mine. So I got to run over to the thing. He's like, I'm running under fire. Son's up here. He's like, God is great. I'm like, I fucking get it. And I agree. God is great, dude. And there's holes in the backpack. They're in plastic at the bottom. Because how fast you need batteries. No one's going to change. He's under fire, right? So I'm running back, I throw him to him and I roll over, I pull the dip out of my pocket. He's. I'm like, you're fucking changing him. I ain't doing that. I put a dip in. And then the army guy behind me like, did you just put in a fresh dip? I'm like, no, homie, I just fresh it up. The old one. And so he's doing this whatever. And we had a conversation, something about, just talk to me like I'm a man, is what the pilot said. Because he knew. He knew, like, you're under pressure. Just fucking talk to me like I'm a man. And I think I said, I see why women find you attractive. But he got it and snapped us out. And then he. He ended up bombing. It was. We had two birds. The first one to bomb was a B1 because he said, bombs away. And he said, two minutes out. And I said, two minutes. It's a space shuttle. And Tony's. I know it's bones too, too. That's a B1. He dropped her from like 60, 000ft. Like they're coming. And then we're look and we're kind of looking back. And what are they going to sound like? What? This is danger close. And Tony, something like, plug your ears, man. Or something. You just. They're close. God is great. That sounds like bacon. Sounds like bacon sizzling. This B1 dropped three 2,000 pound JDAMs right on top of that mountain. And they air burst in a triangle. Woof. And so the Allahu Akbar guy, he's. He realizes these are Americans. He looks back and so I blast him after yelling something about God at him. And then. So their backpack. I'm watching Guys on fire. Like, I saw dudes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, combat is not like the movies all the time. It is. It is fast and loud and permanent and. And. And just over. And I saw guys vanish. Like everything that ever mattered to them in life at 23 years old, gone. Gone. So they're running back, and we ended up hitting them. We got another one, dude. One two showed up. He's an F16. F16 dude. Is that 15? Three and a half hours. We bombed Pakistan. There's footage of this on YouTube.

[A]

This is 08.

[B]

You said 08. Border bombing, Pakistan. I'll tell you if it's what, three

[A]

and a half hours?

[B]

Yeah, to the. Well, we had to get birds to come in to get us, so they flew some Blackhawks up. And we get everyone. I'm the last guy on dash two, and I get inside, and we're taking. I'm on the starboard side, the right hand side, and we're taking. And I've been sucking mud for the past four hours, but now we're taking off, and I'm like, I can see the. I think that might be it right there. That's no 2008, but I can see the.

[A]

Yeah. The second one, thief, is scorched earth.

[B]

As we're taking off, and I'm like, first I'm happy. Well, I'm really happy. I was going to die, but now I'm going to live. And I'm like, oh, my God, we just bought Pakistan. And then it's like, that's an international incident. And then it hits me. I'm in charge. I'm probably going to hear about this one.

[A]

And you said you were reporting the CIA on this one.

[B]

Well, I'm working at the base, so I'm. I'm still reporting for jsi, Joint Special Operations Command. Working one of those shady relationships. Like, the guys we train are probably working for the counties right now. Like, really? Yeah. But I was right because I landed and there was a general there, and he said, well, because we're in two different states of mine, he's thinking, we bomb packs. And I'm thinking, fuck, I get to see my kids. And he says, o', neill, you realize we're not at war with Pakistan, right? And I said, yeah, we fucking were today. And you should have seen it. And I'm like, yeah. And he said, yeah. So there's going to be an investigation. You're either going to go to Leavenworth for rest of your life or maybe get a silver star.

[A]

Oh, he hit you with the Leavenworth Yeah.

[B]

So waiting an hour for a bomb is a long time. Waiting three weeks to find out if you're gonna spend your life in Leavenworth is enough. And we're at a point too now that's. Oh wait, we're putting people in prison for murder.

[A]

Yeah. Now what was that? So that three week investigation we had,

[B]

we had drone footage. I didn't know there was an unarmed drone above us filming it. So they actually did a good job with this. They let him. The Pakistanis talked their way because we killed 11. 11 Pakistani soldiers. Like we killed Pakistan army. My. I did. So they're investigating say oh unprovoked attack. The Americans are on the border illegally and blah. And they entered and they killed these things. We don't know what. And we let them go with it. I didn't. I'm back there barely jerking off. I'm so nervous. It just thought about. And that's all you have to do on Pakistan or see if you porn works.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And it doesn't make screenshots man old like the ancestors did on the Mayflower. Yeah. Anyway but they, they said yeah, we have footage. So they showed it to him and Pakistan's like oh, our bad.

[A]

So Pakistan took the blame for that?

[B]

No, they did. After we showed him the footage. They were. They were trying to put us all in prison and they're playing the. Playing the Paki card because there's such a.

[A]

Obviously like this is a relationship where we are allied with Pakistan, but it's a constant.

[B]

You've got to consider every country has their best interest in mind. So and Pakistan over there that. Why do you think they're involved in negotiations with Iran? Because they're the center of the universe over they really are. Now that part not the, not the Arab states, not the oil giants, but Pakistan kind of runs that area and so they're going to be involved and so they, they just. They get away with everything. I mean you know we've been arming them. They. They were stealing all our money. We're trying to fight the Russians in there. Then they're. They're double dipping everywhere they go. The Karachi everything through the Torkham Gate, everything is taxed. I mean you're dealing with them at the Torkham Gate bribing Taliban just to get shit up the bogger.

[A]

And their nuclear power too.

[B]

Yeah. Not great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not ideal.

[B]

No. No. Well again too that's why you got to figure they have their best interests in mind. They don't need Bin Laden's crew rolling up there and getting nuked. So they're, they're going to try to defend that as best they can. It's like everyone else. It's like in life, people have their best interests in mind and that's what Pakistan does.

[A]

It's interesting though, because that was completely unbeknownst to you, a very foreboding moment for the fact that the most important moment in your career would happen where you're going into Pakistan again, where it's

[B]

like both my silver stars are Pakistan. They told me we're not at war with Pakistan. That's. I was at war with Pakistan. It seems like, doesn't it? And for the record, I don't have a problem with them either to this day.

[A]

You don't have a problem.

[B]

I'm cool with Pakistan.

[A]

They just happen to be harboring.

[B]

I mean, not cool as far. I mean, I'm not going to look for it is all. If, now, if, when, if, if Pakistanis come over here and start misbehaving. Like they have been known to have a problem with them, but like, I mean, Pakistan holding on to them. I mean, I, they probably helped us find him. They probably helped him hide and then they helped us find him. Like they're, they're playing. Well, they're playing, they're playing both sides of the fence. Everyone is.

[A]

Yeah. I mean there's obviously people in their government that were like sympathetic to him and then there's people that are more sympathetic to like Western interests, but then

[B]

their own interests they don't need. If, if one person launches a nuke, it's over for everyone.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Nuclear winner for everyone gets to enjoy that. And Pakistan's smart enough to know that even with a lot of the. Now you got to. You never. You get some of those Iranian dudes and they're looking for the nuclear winner. That's the Mahdi shows up for them. You get this heaven stuff involved with too many crazy people that know they're right. It's way worse than Thanksgiving dinner with, with, with your aunt.

[A]

Why do you think it's never happened in the 80 years that the world has had the bomb?

[B]

It's hard to say. Well, I mean there's. Well, we can go down a rabbit hole.

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

They don't have nuclear weapons. They're splitting atoms. That's God stuff, right? I mean, if it's that. No, this is a rabbit hole. I'm not saying this. I'm just, you know, we all get in rabbit holes.

[A]

So it's all just a Mexican standoff without any bullets.

[B]

Well, the firebombing footage looks a lot like the nuclear weapon footage. And there's building standing here. If you're hitting them with that many majigatons or whatever they call them, everything goes down. I said, well that one didn't. We'll look at Dresden same. I mean are they getting rid of something? I don't know. Or are we working or do we. I mean it could be as far as wise Eisenhower saying the beware the military industrial complex. Maybe let's get a really ton of bombs and my buddy, his company can make a ton of bombs for us. And there's a big contract. Who knows. Yeah, but I'd be splitting Adams and again we're way out of my pay grade. But that's all right.

[A]

It's a podcast. We're having fun.

[B]

Right. But if you want to talk. I mean that's maybe, maybe not. We dropped it twice on.

[A]

But you were bought that bombing was three and a half hours. They're dropping JDAMs on them.

[B]

Yeah, they weren't. The first one was the biggest. We turned them into 500 pound bombers bombs after the 2000 pounds I think.

[A]

Were you bombing ash at that point?

[B]

We're hitting, we're hitting squirters. We're letting them whatever kind of. Whatever kind of type two cast they're running. We're just letting them eat. Yeah, it's like the whole. Yeah. Give them, give them my initials. We got this. I could still see him.

[A]

It's like you said though with movie scenes. They make these bombings quick. It's like 30 seconds. Special effects done.

[B]

I've seen a miss. I got footage of an F16 missing a house all by itself and, and dudes on the ground. Heck on the pilot just happens like. I mean combat's like weird. Nothing like when they. A lot of that this government projects they have that just go on so smooth and every. No one was hurt. It's like all right, I've seen literally testing out a Humvee and five guys died side right? Yeah.

[A]

So what made you want to be a seal?

[B]

I got dumped by a girl.

[A]

You got dumped?

[B]

Yeah. So then I want to be a marine.

[A]

He answered that. So I didn't finish the question.

[B]

Yeah, well that. I mean again it. It goes with the only time the perfect plan is this is in the planning room and once you. You tell God what your plan is tomorrow and it's not. He's this different. So I was, I was going to play basketball in College, which I did at Montana Tech. And yeah, I got dumped by a girl. And it was, it was a moment most 19 year old dudes have is like, I got to get out of this town. And I had two friends, Jim McBride, Ben Walashewski, that were. I grew up with two years older than me. They were my sister's age. They always wanted to be marines since we were kids and CCD like young kids. And they always had semper fi. I didn't know what that was. And then they left. I was, I went in my junior year and every time they came back, I'm trying to sneak into bars. I'll see one of those two dudes just look like us Marines. Like, no, like Butte, Montana is a tough town. Mining town, nobody with them because they're Marines.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So when I literally, it's time to get out of town, I'm like, I'm doing that. That's it. I at least I'll get an awesome haircut and maybe I can get those abs. I don't know. And I've seen Full Metal Jacket. I've got this.

[A]

I mean, there was a guy in that movie that didn't have it, but you know.

[B]

Yeah, well, probably one of the.

[A]

We all get.

[B]

Yeah. Either way, this is going to be a great ending. So I went to, there's a, it's the recruiting station still there in Butte, Montana. And I walked in and the Marine recruiter wasn't there, the Navy guy was. And I, this is a complete twist of my entire existence and the rest of my family. I went to the Navy guy because Ben and Jim told me a joke. The Marine Corps is actually part of the department of the Navy. It's just the men's department. And so man to man, I'm going to ask him where the Marine. And seriously. So I'm like, hey, dude, where's the Marine? I had no idea. Military bearing, what anything means. You know, he's wearing khakis, he's got an anchor, he's the Navy Chief. Didn't know what that was, but now I do. And he's a clever dude. Chiefs run the Navy. And he goes, well, sit down, son. Why do you want the Marine? Blah, blah, blah. I'm a hunter, I'm a sniper. I want Marines. Have the best sniper in the world. He said, look no further. We have snipers in the the Navy. He brushed over seal, but he said we do. But if you get through SEAL training, we'll send you to sniper school.

[A]

Oh, then he hit you with that.

[B]

And so I'm standing there, I'm pumped up Navy seal. And I did see Charlie Sheen's movie, which I actually have the original script to from Charlie. He gave that to me. That's.

[A]

He gave you the original script.

[B]

Like, you can see a manuscript with the notes. The like old school 1980 script. With a pencil, you can tell the more blow was out, the further than night. God. And. And like, there's a phone numbers with hearts. And that's cool. Oh, man, there's a heart. It says Kelly and there's a number on it.

[A]

Why did he give this to you?

[B]

Listen to that. I. I don't know. He's my boy. And so I called him. Here's a sentence only Charlie Sheen can say. I said, there's a number in here. It says Kelly and it's a heart. And he goes, oh, that's when we were filming in Hawaii. I love Kelly Preston more in one week. And then I've loved anyone. And I was married to Denise Richards. It's quite a bomb to. To drop on a U up text. And it was only the first seven, but where were we on that? What were we talking about just before

[A]

we were talking about you getting recruited by the guy.

[B]

Oh, yes. Like, department. And so I said, yeah, I looked at him and I said, He's a. I'm 19. I'm naive, but he's a professional recruiter. Why do you lie to me? Literally, he's got to be honest. And so I signed.

[A]

What do you think? I mean, that's a big leap for a guy like that.

[B]

I didn't know how to swim.

[A]

You didn't know how to swim? He didn't know that. But like, what do you think he saw when you walked in there?

[B]

He's like, you sign number. You know, in Montana, we. We recruit army and Marines, maybe some Air Force. Because Malaster Air Force Base is right there. But Navy doesn't get it by. So I mean, I'm thinking at first, like, it. He's a quote. I'm. I need. I need two a month. Here. Here's one. It's early, but I mean. And he's donated. Same guys donated to my foundation after I retired or got out.

[A]

Yeah, but it's like, it's the seals, though. This isn't like when we're talking quotas. It's a different.

[B]

In his defense, he did his job. He guaranteed me in writing a chance to try out to get orders to SEAL training. Oh, so it's called. It was called the dive Fairer program.

[A]

Got it. So you end up on a ship if that doesn't work.

[B]

And that was. I had an army buddy that didn't get what he wanted in his contract. And he came back from high school and said he gave me advice for life. Get it in writing. Everything get in writing.

[A]

Good advice.

[B]

So, yeah, I took that. And then I, I had about five months. I still had my college id and they had a pool, so I went up there to. And I don't know how to swim. I mean, I could keep myself alive, you know, I, I. There was a lakes and in Montana, I didn't know how to swim like stroke, so I'm standing up to dumb as shit. And there's 25 meters and 25 meters. I'm doing the math. No one's there. It's like 5am and I'm like, all right, I'll swim a thousand. Engage it from there, right? Yeah. And everything was going fine with my plan until I got in the water.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I get down to the deep end and literally, like, I think I might be in a pickle because I just signed a contract and I can't swim to be a seal. So my buddy Mike is there, Mike Driscoll, and he was going to swim at Notre Dame, and he just, he, this is my luck. I'm like the unluckiest person in the world, so I'm really lucky. Like, life's horrible then. It's amazing. But he's like, hey, man, don't take it, don't take this the wrong way. Love to see you here. Just literally never seen you in the pool. What gives? I said, oh, I joined the Navy. I'm gonna be a seal. And he goes, no, you're. No, no, you're not. And then he showed me the breaststroke and I worked on that for five months. And then that was the stroke that I used to pass the 500 yard swim in boot camp. No, just. That's to get orders. So the test is simple. It's 500 yards with, with breaststroke or sidestroke. It's literally 42 push ups.

[A]

Oh, no, freestyle.

[B]

No, you can't do that. No, no, you got to swim breaststroke or side.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

42 pushes 50 setups, six pull ups, and then run a mile and a half in boots. And now it's boots and cammies. It was, for me, it was boondockers and, and jeans.

[A]

Right. And that's the boot camp, the initial.

[B]

And then you get. And then I got orders. And then they sent me to SEAL training, so that Test is nothing. Just to get orders. Then you go out there and that's where the fun starts.

[A]

Did you have any idea, like what to expect in buds?

[B]

I. I sort of did. I. I tried to prepare. I let her. I read as many books as I can. Warrior is a must read. That. That book got so many guys from my generation that did missions at Seal Team 6. The lead jumper to rescue Jessica Buchanan in Somalia. And, and his book is out. Justin Sheffield, he got. He joined the Navy because of rogue war and then he's. He rescued her. So she was rescued because of a book that, that wouldn't get approved by our government, so he had to write it as fiction. He founded Seal Team 6 and we've never met him. That's how up our Navy came be like, why aren't you here every day telling shooters? Why isn't the bin Laden team down there right now telling shooters on the second deck? I don't know.

[A]

I always wonder like, what guys like that must have seen that the government would be that strict with it, you know?

[B]

Well, because he was. Well, Mareno was. He did a thing called Red Cell. So he was, he was hitting Navy bases and Navy ships and showing him how up their security was. And then, and then seals being seals, they probably had a few whiskeys and they started tightening up some animals over a couple of weeks of grooming standards or whatever.

[A]

Probably. But you were reading that and some other books.

[B]

Yeah, I read that and I read that Point man by Patches Watson. James Patches Watson. So we're reading Vietnam books and that was just cool. And that's more of a gritty like when I met Patches Watson actually as a. Before I even deployed. But I was a SEAL at sniper school in Indiana. Just a legend. Starstruck. And he just like I remember but I'm thinking the Hollywood esque. Oh, Vietnam, my God. And are you. And he's like, well, Vietnam was a fun war, so son, it's a fun, like, fun. He's like, yeah, you go swimming, then you hunt people all night and then you go get chow and beer. Yeah, it's fun. I'm like, that does sound fun. I want to do that. But I read that and then I figured I was working on the swims. I actually still have the notebook my recruiter gave me with like the folder the Navy with the times my time's decreasing in the swim and. And then so I get to SEAL training. I'm like, I'm a good swimmer. Then I. Then I run into guys who are the captain of the water polo team at the Naval Academy. Tom, don't. I ran into. And he actually, he's a, I think he's a three star now, but he's an ensign when I run into him. And, and he gave me advice without even realizing it. And I was actually a Red squad and with him at SEAL Team six later when he was a lowly captain or whatever. And I, I, he didn't did give a about me at the time. He's an incident. I just said something outside by the cage like, man, I'm scared shitless, but you must be really scared because you're in charge as an officer. And he goes, the, you scared of? He goes, what, what are you scared of? I said, I don't, I don't know. And he goes, exactly.

[A]

What?

[B]

Don't be afraid. That's all I said. Like, oh, yeah, okay. It's the ocean. Good point. And that, that was good. Okay. Then it kind of snapped me into a mindset. And then there was an instructor that played, I think he might have played with one of the Globetrotters traveling teams. This white dude that. Yeah. And he for some reason like me because word spread that I played whatever, I knew how to dribble a basketball. And he. Better basketball than swimming. Yeah, I, Yeah. Oh, I got us out of some beatings because I could make three pointers on my knees and like that, that's good. I had to do on my knees because some in the class. Are you playing college, bro? I'm literally getting out of an aspect. But you know, trust me with your life, not your money or your wife. And, but he said everyone is talking

[A]

about psilocybin mushrooms right now, and rightfully so. But what if I told you that there's another mushroom that's completely legal and instead of making you trip, it gives you this relaxed, jolly buzz. The mushroom I'm talking about is called Amanita muscaria. The red one with the white spots you've definitely heard of before. And this is where it gets interesting. It's not psilocybin and it's not a traditional psychedelic. At higher doses, it can feel sedating, even a little dreamy. But at lower doses, it's a completely different experience. For me, it's way more grounding, puts me into a calm, focused state, and even helps with sleep. Like you're gonna get deeper sleep, more vivid dreams, and actually wake up feeling rested. The reason I felt comfortable even trying amanita is because my friends at Amentara, if you look into amanita, at all. You know, the space could be messy, gas station products, sketchy blends. Amentara is the opposite. They've served over 50,000 customers. Everything is lab tested, cleanly sourced and fully transparent. They also have a wide range of products, so you can find what works best for you. I like taking one of their Blue Lotus extract capsules before going to sleep after I've had a long wired day and I'm out very quickly and waking up feeling well rested the next morning. So go to amantara.com go julian or click the link in my description below. And when you do, make sure you use code JDP22 for 22 off your first order. Once again, that's amatar.com go/julian link in my description below. Code JDP22.

[B]

I know you've read the books and seen the movies. Regardless of what you've been told, this course is not impossible. People graduate. Yeah, and I look at him, he's like, well, he's like, look at me. I'm living proof. So I'll never ask you to do anything impossible. I'm going to make you do something really hard, followed by something really hard, followed by something really hard. I'm gonna do that day after day after day for eight straight months. And that will sound like a lot if you think about it like that, but don't do it that way. Here's how you're gonna. Here's how you get the SEAL training. You wake up in the morning on time, make your bed the right way, and then brush your teeth. And that's three wins. Your day just started with three victories. That's pretty fucking cool. Make it to the 4am workout on time, which is your fourth win. And then, as I'm beating you, don't think about the pain that's gonna end. Concentrate on your next goal in life, which is breakfast. After breakfast, do make it to lunch. Your next go after lunch is dinner. And then after dinner, do everything you need to do to get back inside that perfectly made be you took the time for yourself in the morning to make your bed the right way. Regardless of how bad today was, and it will be bad, tomorrow's a clean slate and a fresh start. And when you feel like quitting, which is very simple, when you feel like quitting, which you will never quit right now, that's emotion. Never respond emotionally. Quit tomorrow. And if you can keep quitting tomorrow, you can do anything in life, including getting through SEAL training. Now do it.

[A]

That's just a visual, a perfect vision, literally, of how to stay present.

[B]

And then I was like, well, I mean. And I said some. Like, well, I have to wake up early for sunscreen. He goes, then get the up early. That's five wins, you idiot. Give the kid a book. And he eats it.

[A]

But I mean, then you're in it, though, and it's. It's easy to look at it.

[B]

That gets intense because you get to like, Hell Week is where it separates. That's where, like, don't make any friends before Wednesday of Hell Week is what I tell kids now.

[A]

Now.

[B]

Because Wednesdays are long term going Hell Week. Hell Week's where they wake you up on Sunday and you don't do. You do everything till Friday. No sleep. If you sleep, you. It's 20 minutes here on Thursday, right? And again, I saw a dude quit on Fear, right? Like, we're.

[A]

Fear.

[B]

Fear. We're starting the first part of Hell Week's about an hour where, like, the sun's down, they're beating your ass. They're spraying you with water. You're going back and forth. The surf zone. They're shooting off blanks and 16 grenade simulators. It's in there. There's shows. It's awesome. It's fun. That's the only fun part of Hell Week that's fun. The parents, families, wives and kids are up on the buildings watching Break out of Hell Week. It's just cool. And you're getting beat. It's fun. Then you go into Hell Week and it just sucks. But we're sitting in these tents getting ready to. And like, we're like, dude, I'm starting Hell Week. Like, I'm getting in a fight. This. I'm ready. I'm ready. Let's do this. This kids, is. He's my. They assign you brand new swim buddies for confusion, because as soon as you get out, they're splitting you up and you can't find your swim, but they're beating you for that. That it's a game. Get it in your head. But this kid sitting with my new swim buddy, and he'd been there for a while because he got rolled back. And he goes, hey, man, I'm scared. I'm like, funny. He goes, no, dude, I'm scared. I'm like, you're scared now? I was like. He's like, I'm probably gonna quit. I'm like, no, no. I was like, quit after the fun. Like, go through that. Have that story five minutes in. Fucker quiz. He talked like, if you're in his head, you're talking Yourself into quitting. There's no hope for you. And what that instructor said to me too, right before hell, because we watched Braveheart with Donovan and that dude. There's 20 Navy Seals now that owe Tom Donovan their careers because we watched Braveheart the whole time during Hell Week. He's screaming freedom. Like, dude's running on broken legs because he's William Wallace. But yeah, we're. We're doing that. And that instructor said again, just cool as hell. I don't know why he liked me, but he said, you're about to go to war for the first time, and the enemy's all your doubts, all your fears, and everyone back home that told you you couldn't do this. Just keep your head down. Keep moving forward. When you feel like quitting, quit tomorrow.

[A]

It seems like with you, there's two things that really stand out. Number one, you see the comedy and everything.

[B]

Everything, literally everything.

[A]

That's huge. And then the second thing is that you're one of those guys. Like, the way I describe it is like, you like to put your hand on the kettle while it's boiling just to see how long you can hold the fingers there.

[B]

You got to compete. God, that's awesome. And time it. Did I beat my last time?

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Like, you're. You're self competitive.

[B]

My wife said that the other night in bed. Said, what are you timing? I'm like, fucking everything. Why aren't you asleep? Because I'm losing the parlor.

[A]

But I feel like if you were putting together, like, a concoction of things that can keep you present, like, he was giving you advice to do, that's a pretty good combination.

[B]

We. When I woke up every. Every morning at Seal Team 6, every fucking morning, even in selection, which sucked, which was the best time my life, I was excited to get to work and go to people who were better than me with people like when, like. And I was competitive as, like, I'm gonna outshoot you. I'm gonna beat you. There were two dudes that consistently would beat me or whatever, but when they did, I would say, okay, what did you eat today? I noticed you moved. That pouch was there. Now it's here. Did you work out or shoot first today? Did you log all your shot? What are you doing that I'm not. Why'd you beat me like that? And that's. That's how the guys were. And you get in the moment, though, even. Even before. Right before the bin Laden raid, like, we did the final brain brief. Like, our shit is on, and we're gonna go and we're gonna die. And Admiral Bill McRaven was there, and he was running JSOC at the time. And he's the one that sold it to bin Laden for Seal Team 6 to get. He's gonna. That's what we won. We don't need a pep talk. I don't. I don't need it. I got it. I've done this a lot. We've killed a lot of people. They don't. And he said, but I want to tell you guys this. Last night I watched my favorite movie. It's called Hoosiers, and it's about this basketball team from Hickory, Indiana. And there's like seven guys on the team, really small place, and all they do is travel to each other's towns and play basketball. That's it. They have never left. But this team is such a good team and so well coached. They make it to the state championship. It's in Indianapolis. And these kids have never seen this. And they walk out there, obviously in awe, and their mind's not there. So Coach recognizes that, and he grabs a tape measure and says, what's the measurement from the free throw line to the rim? And they're like, it's 15ft, coach. Go get on his shoulders. What's the measurement from the rim to the floor? It's 10ft, coach. He said, you're going to find these are the same measurements exactly as your Jim and Hickory. This is just a bigger audience. And he looked at us and goes, you guys do this every night. This is just a bigger audience. So we get up to leave, and I'm walking out. And I think the only time I've ever called him Bill, and he's a SEAL Team Six guy, but he's a fucking admiral. I said, bill, you are so busy selling this mission, I highly doubt you watched Hoosiers last night. But you were fucking born to give us that speech. Yeah, Right now. I'll see you in a few hours. That's another amazing dude, right? It's like. And that. And like, tell me you don't want to start at least throwing jabs right now.

[A]

I got goosebumps right there because it's like.

[B]

But then we're walking out, and the woman that found Bin Laden's out there, and she's real dark.

[A]

Jessica Chastain was.

[B]

Nailed it.

[A]

That's that woman.

[B]

Nailed it. Hot, but in a different way. And I promise I would never describe her except for that.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

And if anyone finds. I'll never say who she is. But if you find out who she is, hire her. I don't give a fuck what you do. Hire me. Her, she'll figure it out for you. But she's out there and I think she might have been smoking. Like I don't think she's whatever. And that's kind of hot. It's yeah, yeah. And I walk faster, so I figured I'd with her. And I go, hey, why are you nervous? And she goes, why the aren't you nervous? I said, well, because I do this every night and I get on helicopters, I fly somewhere, I, with some people and then I fly back. I said, this is just a longer flight for me. Of course you need to be right, don't you? So I see what you're nervous. See in a few hours again, that was like my go to line line or whatever. And you know, I just called my dad and, and that was a weird call. I, I, he was my last phone call to leave to die.

[A]

Why did, why did you decide?

[B]

Hey, I grew up with him. When my parents divorced, I eventually moved in with him and we played basketball and we, we wouldn't leave the gym. He played college basketball at the University of Montana and we wouldn't leave the gym. And we worked out every day, two, two and a half, three hours. We could not leave the gym till one of us made 20 free throws in a row. That, and so we can, we're going to leave now. Free throws, we can be done in a minute and a half. We might be here another five hours. So start shooting. Start on a make. And that pisses me off. I watch, I bet a lot on NBA finals and March Madness. You know what pisses me off? You're set. You shoot, you make it. Why are you moving your feet to shake their hands? You just did your job. Congratulations. We'll pat your ass later.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Make the shot. So we'd start on a make, then you got to make 20. So the first make you got it, your range finder is there. And the only argument he and I had, do you look at the rim or do you follow the ball? He follows the ball. I look at the rim. Doesn't matter. That taught me muscle memory though. Do everything. You want to be good at something, do it a hundred thousand times. You're going to be chess, you'll be good at it.

[A]

There's that self competition though. There's where it's coming from.

[B]

But this got better between he and I because it's 20 to leave the gym. But at the beginning of my season, it's 20 to go to the derby for a steak. That's on Harrison Avenue in Butte, Montana. The derby. But when you hit that milestone, it moves up 5. So 25 for the stake 20 and 30 for the stake 20 to leave the gym. And we got to a point where he. I think he made 91 free throws in a row. And that was the fountain. My dad made 91 in a row. That was a record for a week and a half because I made 105 the next week. And that's just how we got. So that was the muscle memory. So he's my buddy and raised you

[A]

when your parents separated?

[B]

I was too young and they. They pretended they got along for the kids, which is awesome. And they live like, it's Butte, Montana. They're a mile apart. And then, you know, he. Well, and he was funny because he always thought, that's my son. That he did that. Like when I joined. And then the five months in the delayed entry program, there was. Class 207 was on to today's show. So I was going to be 208. 207 was on the Today show. And then there's a Life magazine thing. There were people with. Doing drown proofing, which is when they tie your hands behind your back and your feet together. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he's showing me. This is my dad. It's funny. He's showing me this thing goes. That's you right there. I can tell by your calves. I'm like, dad, I literally. I'm not in the Navy yet. That's not me at all.

[A]

And I can tell by your calves.

[B]

It's like, I'm. I. You know, you haven't. I would have said goodbye. I didn't secretly leave. I Like, I'm gonna miss you. And. But. But then, like. And even in the Navy, though, we started to do like, the we. Before 9 11. I was with Jocko Willink in that platoon. Drago was in that platoon. He's. He's a famous Navy SEAL from Poland.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I gotta get you on here. You gotta get it.

[A]

Yeah, I would love to.

[B]

I'll do that.

[A]

What's the. So you weren't Seal Team 6.

[B]

That was 2. And then we took down a Russian tanker full of. Smuggled that raki oil. End up on CNN for that.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And my dad sees that.

[A]

That.

[B]

And then eventually I'm on the Liberia thing where we swim and my dad sees that because I went up to. I went up to a Fox News reporter that there's pictures out There it's the one with me and the big thing and the huge dip in. And I went over because I wanted to see find Jennifer Eccleston who worked at Fox News. I walk up and I go, hey, I'm looking for Jennifer Eccleston to the reporter. And he can't oversee it with a gun. I just, I just swam in off that ship and he thought it was funny. And I said, I'm looking for Jack. And he goes, ah, man, she left last week. And you tell her I'm going to find her. And he literally goes. He literally goes, bring her a carton of Marlboro Red. She smokes like a fucking chick like that. So my dad saw that shit in that picture and then, you know, the lone survivor, we're on the mount for that. And then I called him on Good Friday, April 10th was my birthday and said, hey Dad, I gotta go. And he's like, he said something about pirates, like, yeah, dad, on my birthday we had to go Somalia, rescue Richard Phillips. So he just knows, he thinks. So I call him from Pakistan.

[A]

Dirty was on that one.

[B]

Right on. For Philip, that's when he had the Rolex. He bought a Rolex.

[A]

Shout out to Dirty Dan for putting together.

[B]

By the way, thanks, buddy. Yeah, I'll tell the Rolex story after this. Don't let me forget. So he just convinced I'm doing everything now. I just finished like my 13th deployment to Afghanistan and we're just training, but that's when the bin Laden thing happened. So I have to go to Pakistan, can't tell anybody. So I call my dad from Jalalabad, Afghanistan, from one of our Beehits where we have landline sort of. And he doesn't know I'm over there. And I said, and I would call him before missions a lot and say, hey, dad, got like Iraq, whatever, we're going out every night, night. My hey dad gotta go to work. Calling a few hours. That's like what I say to everybody. And, and he would always say, you know, I wish I could go with you. And I said, I know Dad, I wish you could too, like that. And I called him before the bin Laden. I say, dad, I'm going to work, but before I go, I gotta thank you for. And he's like, what do you mean? I'm like, ah, just thanks, you know, for teaching me how to be a man. Like the death talk, like for shooting free throws. And I gotta go to work. And he said, you know, I wish I was going with you. And I said, I'm with some good guys. You know, then you go out there and then you see the guys and you get on a bird. But that like that's a hard. He was at a, at a. It's still, he still can't really tell that story. He was, he was.

[A]

Right away he knew. Yeah.

[B]

And he's at a Walmart parking lot and he said he walked into the Walmart in Butte, Montana and he was, he's funny too. And he said now I'm using my two favorite words with which are catatonic and apoplectic because that's me walking. And he ran into his sister who's a registered nurse and she's like the fuck is going on? Because something's wrong. And he said whatever, you know, fast forward. We're watching Obama say his speech and we're like, can you say that no one was hurt? Because he knows at this point? But yeah, so I just called my dad before I left. Then we get on a bird and it's, you got a 90 minute flight with your boys and we're gonna die on this one. This is a one way mission. We, we do know that did have

[A]

they told like when you were having your conversations with McRaven and all that, obviously the goal is to go in there and kill him, but the question is how the are you gonna get out? Was there like anything explicit where he's

[B]

like this is a badass story. I was not in the room for this. But the word got back to us when we sold it to President Obama when we attempted to. It's these two new birds flying in, maximum I think 32 minutes on the ground. You got to be in the birds to fly out because you're going to run out of fuel. We cannot, we can't refuel. So if we're over we might have to hardpoint. And so we're going to hard point it and we're going to announce to the locals because you got to fear going in there. I don't want to kill the cops. This is their city. And the first responders aren't going to be the military. It's going to be local cops. I just don't, I'm going to fuck them up. I don't want to kill five cops. I don't need that. I've already got a guilty conscience. So we're, we're going to hardpoint. Then you can send someone to Pakistan and like negotiate our release because whatever. And this is the word I got. I think McRaven might have said and I Don't want to put words in his mouth but someone told us that he said okay, that's interesting. And he looked at the chief of. This is President Obama looked at the chief of staff of the Air Force and said what do you need to rain hell in Pakistan? My fucking boys aren't surrendered surrendering to anybody. Which is pretty dope because that is if you think about it everything, especially with Barack Obama is political. He hadn't been reelected yet. If he fucks this up, he's not getting that and we have to go right now because of the alum cycle. So he knows this and he's. He's doing the right thing. That's why you will rarely hear me say anything negative about him. Because on my night to die he stepped up for us. So that was. And so then we got the guerrilla package. Then we got potentially we he. Well shitload more helicopters full of rangers. Which is always awesome. Like you know it's gonna suck to get stuck here. But when those 500 Rangers show up, we're gonna have a good night because invasions are fun. And that's what this is turning into. This won't be a forever war. I'm gonna steal everything I fit in my pockets and we out. But yeah, so that was cool to get more of that. And then the. We had 2:47 behind us. 45 minutes to. They have extra fuel. They have SEAL team six guys. They got rangers. And so that. That did make us feel better. And then obviously we found out about the super secret helicopters and that was a. Because. Well, because one of the things is we're gonna get shot down. It's 90 minutes in. And I. I remember even because I like. Well we were saying sense of humor and I like around. We had a table about this size to scale of his house and we would talk about it every night and guys were dicking off and I said hey, you need to take this more serious. This is a one way mission. So we're gonna get.

[A]

You were telling.

[B]

I was telling them just right now. I want you to be serious. We can off later.

[A]

Did they think that too or was it.

[B]

It's one of those. I don't want to talk about it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But we're doing it like. Like go. Come on. This is it.

[A]

What an ending.

[B]

What an ending.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What a legacy. But then we get out to wherever and I. I can't say but it's in Nevada and we high elevation right. Yeah. We had to sign a lot of papers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

About that. You can't. Okay. What you think you may have. Yeah. Anyway, but we. We're walking to this hangar, we have this kind of. And we turn the corner, the helicopters are. And I started laughing and they're like, what's so funny now? I'm like, well, well, we might live because we're going to war on Transformers, dude. Look at these things. And then. Yeah. And all, you know, there's more room. I mean, the pilots hadn't flown before. They didn't know they existed. And then they. We trained with those things and. And then went over to Jalalabad and. And. And shout out to the. There was already a SEAL Team 6 squadron over there. So Blue Squadron was there. Can you imagine?

[A]

You were Red Squadron at the time, right?

[B]

Can you imagine being deployed at SEAL Team Six? I'm. I am the. The top unit. And they're sending another unit From Seal Team 6 to go after Osama bin Laden. Are you shitting me? And we did that. So we. And they were fucking professional. If I was Blue Squadron, I would hate me. All of us.

[A]

And they were cool.

[B]

Totally cool. They what? We played cards with them. Like, they said their biggest complaint was we weren't fun to play poker with because every hand we were all in because I'm going to be dead next week. Yeah, but they were, I mean, complete pros, man. I mean, to this day, I'm amazed.

[A]

That's cool. That's cool.

[B]

It says something about being professional. Well, I mean, even the Maduro raid,

[A]

I was jealous as 28 minutes. Insane.

[B]

Jealous is so proud of those guys. What? What, what?

[A]

So we use like a hypersonic weapon or something there.

[B]

You know what this administration is really, really good at not telling us. And they're doing stuff for different reasons and I mean, direct energy, hypersonic weapons. I don't know what the nine bangers, things they were dropping out of supersonic aircraft going below. Yeah, I don't know what that was. I'm assuming they were jets. It could have been hyper. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, there was. There was some. I don't know, I assume like, you know, some of the guys who were there.

[B]

Yeah, but I'm getting older, you know, I'm 50, right. These are the young studs. How about that pilot, though, that got hit with artillery and kept flying?

[A]

Yeah. So our. One of our guys, Christian the Venezuelan lives right there. So we couldn't. When this was first dropping the next day.

[B]

That's a good source.

[A]

Get him on the phone. And I was like, oh my God. Killed Christian the Venezuelan. He's like the team mascot. And then I get him on the phone, I get him on FaceTime. He's like, Julian, I'm like, you're alive.

[B]

He's like, bro, it was awesome, man.

[A]

We.

[B]

We heard the helicopters go over in

[A]

the middle of the night. We went outside and it was.

[B]

Oh yes.

[A]

We were just like USA US and

[B]

he loved it, didn't he?

[A]

He loved it.

[B]

Well, I went down to the USA Venezuela game in Miami. Those people there loved it and they can. They know how to gotta go to a baseball game. Yeah, Venezuelans.

[A]

Oh yeah. No, I love baseball. These. I don't know if you've seen some of these, but those were given any by one. If you scroll the other way too, there's like a bunch. But I just kept looking at it and I'm a goddamn civilian so I couldn't think of every possible way they'd do it. But some of it looked like there was some advanced going on.

[B]

That is. Yeah, that's a. That looks like a DAP Direct. A direct air penetrate air penetrator. Direct action penetrator. Yeah. Dap. Look up a DAB. Yeah, it's a. It's a Blackhawk, but it's got all kinds of on it or in a

[A]

Pat and I. Yeah, he said some was light.

[B]

If. If Delta went. I think TF160 went and that. Well, they definitely went. That means Daps went with them. So look up a D. That's it. Yeah, check that bad boy out. I should have run my computer. I got some real. Yeah, these guys are getting their heads blown off. This is. This is helicopter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But again too you know, you got to figure what blew my mind was you have all this happen. All of this all around you at say you're a soldier or a Cuban working for Maduro. All this happens and now Delta Force is running at you and you decide to shoot at them. What is luck? Like don't you just try this. Like I'm not a big that but like these guys, they got us. Yeah. And with. Based on the aircraft I'm assuming they're not complete savages. So they might like negotiate for my. I'm not. It's not like Afghanistan05 where I could get butt to death. I think I got a good. For some reason I'm just happy to see that American flag right now.

[A]

Not that they're not capable even. Did you see the video of what turned out to be some of the test run for that where they know Trump watching it. It was like six months before or something.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. So he's there, and we didn't know this is what it was, but someone just took, like, a cell phone video of him watching the guys, like, go on the ground and then, like, running into the building and everything. And it turned out that was them doing, like, the first, I guess, run through of one of the possible scenarios or whatever. But even watching that and, you know it's just a military testing ground. Like, there's no real people. You're watching that, you're like, oh, those guys, they're good.

[B]

They're the first time I work with Delta and I'm at SEAL Team 6, and I saw them in Iraq. Like, I saw them, and they're gonna have little birds. I just got to. I'm, like, not gonna say anything, but that's Delta Force. That's kind of cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, these are some legit dudes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Really good dudes. But, yeah, when I saw that too, just the. Just the overwhelming, literally. I love that mission. Like, I love the bin Laden, because we will come get you if we. If we need to. And this isn't even us taking the gloves off. Wait till we do. Like, people should be happy. The United States is the superpower. If we wanted to take everything, we could. We're just really nice.

[A]

We're really nice.

[B]

Oh, we're nice. As. We might bomb the. Out of you, but we're nice. We could do a lot more. We could bomb the. And then take your. And get rid of you. You and take more, then make more Americans. And then we have our 53rd, 54th 50th estate anywhere. Anywhere.

[A]

Even China?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Why do you say that? You're very confident China's lying to us.

[B]

They don't have the population they think they have.

[A]

They don't. I agree with that.

[B]

They're gonna collapse. They're. They're. That's why they're playing nice. If China could take over, they would. If China could take Taiwan, they would. They're just playing nice. Like, maybe. No, they don't give a. They're still pissed about the Opium wars from, like, the 1800s. That's why they were funneling all that dust, a like a dime on the dollar. Heroin into Vietnam.

[A]

You.

[B]

You couldn't get heroin that good or that cheap in Manhattan.

[A]

Yeah, well, they were funneling a lot of fentanyl precursors through Mexico to here, too.

[B]

Canada, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're trying. Yeah, yeah. They're. They're. I'm not saying a paper tiger. I don't want to go to war with them. I think it's better to do what Trump's doing. But the entire world's a much better place with a strong America and with real people in charge. And I mean, I mean, like, you got the Democrat people that are there now. You know damn well they're not charged people behind them are the ones in charge, but they're the radicals doing what they. What they want to do. And I mean, that's. Well, that's where the. The world war is not going to come from. U.S. bombing Iran. The next world war is going to come from England defending itself with Ireland.

[A]

Wait, that is not where I thought you were going. England defending itself with Ireland.

[B]

Yeah. England's got a pretty proud history, huh? Yeah. You see what's happening over there?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've been. I've been to Ireland three times in the last four and five months. Talk to the locals. Yeah. I mean, you're not getting. This is fake.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Go get on the ground. Yeah, that's gonna. When. When England defends itself from Ireland. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no England and. No, no, no. So I'm sorry, no England, sorry, sorry. Let's back up and don't clip that to make me look like a idiot. But England and Ireland and start fighting. I don't know which side to that. No. Because they're being invaded right now, just like they were during the Crusades. And so when. And the politicians. Now they're. The politicians are so afraid of the invasion that they're like the kid that got stabbed and killed and he was handcuffed.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like, that is getting old. So eventually, when the English and the Irish don't have anywhere to go, they're home. So when they decide to start offending them, defending them, I'm just telling. I'm not, I'm not like running over there with the IRA. I'm just saying. I went over there with Conor McGregor, but I'm talking to people in his pub and they're pissed off. And they like to fight, too.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So. No, but the word I'm getting is eventually they're gonna have to go after the. The first people that are fair game are they politicians? And you're seeing some old school there. And then. And then when the invaders are eventually being pushed, they're not going back, because once the radical Muslims get 51%, it is going to change dramatically. And when they get pushed back, they're not getting pushed back to the Middle East. They're going to places like France and that's where their politicians are too. So what happens if they're in positions of power and they own part of the military? That's what I'm saying. Is this.

[A]

So you're saying the more direct threat right now to you is the uk?

[B]

Not to me. Not to. No, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying to us, I'm saying no, a world war will start from there.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. Like a threat. A threat.

[B]

Well, because then. Because we're. We are going to have England's back. So when that starts. I'm not saying right now, but no, no one's looking on the horizon for this. England. Europe is being invaded. England will fight. Fight France. Come on. I have a French assault rifle. I'll sell you. It's never been fired and only dropped once. France is not going to fight. England will.

[A]

Lovely place. Steve and I were just there in December.

[B]

Hey, I. Yeah, lovely people. My daughter speaks French.

[A]

Yeah, great. I don't have an ear for the language. It sounds.

[B]

What I'm. What. All I'm doing is as a former special operator, I'm just telling you what I think.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that looks like, as far as world wars go, like, old school. It's not like the Middle East. We've been doing that just for the love of the game. But I mean, a world war where armies fight each other, that's the most realistic world war.

[A]

Do you think that that is how the next world war is actually?

[B]

Precisely. It's going to be fine. Oh. Oh.

[A]

How?

[B]

It's going to be fun. Oh, God. Drones are horrifying.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Because we've got, like mother ships with drones.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then we'll just drop all the drone. Like, we've got fighters that deploy fighters and there's no pilots behind the little fighters, but they're real missiles.

[A]

Yeah. I have Brandon sang in here. I've had Jesse Hamill in here this year.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So Brandon's. Obviously, just to be.

[B]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Ireland's going to fight England then. Even though they. Yeah, they have World war. Ireland versus there's going to be bad blood. No, I'm just saying the defense of Europe will have to happen because where are they going to go? Iceland maybe.

[A]

Maybe Greenland, maybe.

[B]

That's what, that's what we're all doing. Yeah. But if you notice the, the, the, the. The countries too, that Trump said he's coming after, they're all Western hemisphere, other than. Other than Iran.

[A]

Like, why do you think that is.

[B]

It's the shift of the going away from NATO. NATO, the shift of alliances with the oil, the Iranian oil and the crude, the heavy crude in Venezuela mixed perfectly for pipelines. They fit.

[A]

Now you. So if I remember correctly, the, the one you've been on so many shows over the years, the one that I watched and it was the middle of the night when I was in my parents house doing this and I'd be up late editing. I watched you four years ago with Sean Ryan, which was awesome.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And I remember you talked about the time you spent over in Kosovo as well, which obviously to me I'm so fascinated by all that. That's like a forgotten war and what was going on there. But that's where you kind of cut your teeth. And that was directly involving NATO back at the time. So I guess the question is, what's so different about NATO now versus Back then that makes it like Trump wants to leave.

[B]

I think it is Donald Trump, because NATO was supposed to identify. I want to say they're responsible for 3% of their GDP to pay for North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Right. And they weren't. They're ripping us off. Spain, all of them. None. I think just the ones paying were the brand new ones that are still afraid of communist Russia. Places like Estonia, Lafayette, Lithuania. But the old school America's hats like, hey, we're in trouble, please come get us again. Those people, they're just, they're just arrogant. Then we put up with that. I don't know why. The same reason that we send. And like I just said, I won't badmouth Obama. We're sending billions in euros cash overnight. Like, Right. So shit like that. And again we see it now. The ng, every, every tax dollar you spend is corrupt.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah. So that, I mean, what's. What better way to be corrupt than f. This America's gonna protect us. We don't need shit. And they're just. That's the way it is. And we're just spending all of our money, $40 trillion in debt, stuff like that, which we can finance by the way with these new wars if we decide to fight the way we should. But yeah, just. And, and they're, they're, they're against. Look what they're doing right now. Like they don't want us when we're asking for their help. When Ukraine's the most corrupt, one of the most corrupt countries in the world and they all want help there because it might get uncovered how corrupt they are because of Ukraine. That's where we're funneling money there too.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So that's. They're just. Just baskets of. They need a bath. I mean, shit, maybe the invasion is good for them.

[A]

I think that this is one of those things where if it's. If it turns out that it's like a negotiating tactic as well, because we've been ripped. Been getting ripped off financially for so long. And you could kind of rebalance that to where you still have friends around the world and they don't hate you, but now it's a more fair relationship.

[B]

We have friends around the world, but you have to realize what Babe Ruth said, the loudest booze come from the cheapest seats. So you've got. You're funded by guys like George Soros, but then you got these morons out there that are ringing the whistles. And for some reason someone's either getting paid off or blackmailed in the media. That's why they're giving us the. And. But that's good. People are waking up to that too, for sure. But yeah, with. I mean, it's going to be a shift. Not all of NATO, but they are going to have to. To realize where their bread's buttered. And they're. They're taking heavies now that you can only. Eventually every throat's going to get cut. You can only appease a guy with a knife for so long. It's not like, okay, we'll get down to a few of you guys. We all know what happens to the useful idiots. But I mean, yeah, a lot of politicians shouldn't realize that because it only happens every single fucking time. This is why they burn the books. Like they always say they're burning books you got. That's why you should be asking really well what was in them? What was in the books there? Because the whole cute thing about history was written by the victor is true. But it can be really fucking bad because now you just get to see what they. What they do for sure. I mean, are we. Did we need to firebomb Dresden or you're getting rid of some history too? Yeah, weird rabbit holes. I like this lot.

[A]

A lot of rabbit holes with that. And that's the thing, you know, I always use the example of even like the American Revolution, which I think objectively was amazing, what those guys pulled off. I studied the shit out of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like even something like that, where it was a tyranny stamping down on a faraway colony and it went on and on like it's still 90%, you know what I mean? It's never 100% of what you heard. Like, there's still that 10% there where we're like, yeah, we probably shouldn't have done that either. That's just the nature of humanity. There's nothing that's fucking.

[B]

Once you insert the human element, everything changes. Because with the human element comes the power and the money. Like the prostitution, then the blackmail, like this every single time. Telegraph Road is one of the best songs ever written. My daughter asked me if I had once on a list different forever. But it's by Dire Straits. Listen to the lyrics to that. That describes what happens every single time. The Vatican, same men, power corruption.

[A]

Can we pull up the lyrics?

[B]

I mean, I even, like. I just. I'm rereading the Bible as a history book now because I'm really interested in the apostles, because you always hear, oh, he denied him three times before the conquerors. Like, well, why would he do that? Well, put yourself in the moment. The Romans are grabbing and they're whipping them, whatever. And you're with that. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. Like, so what were they thinking? It's like, look. Look at Judas. 30 pieces of silver. I'm hedging my bed. He is the Savior. He'll forgive me. He's not. 30 piece of fucking silver. That's it. And these are just fishermen and fucking tax collectors in, you know, 2,000 years I've been there. Now. Those people suck. 2,000 years ago. Yeah, we got.

[A]

We got the lyrics up right there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. A long time ago came a man on a track walking 30 miles with a sack on his back and he put down his load where he thought it was the best he made a home in the wilderness he built a cabin in a winter store and he plowed up the ground by the cold lake shore and the other travelers came walking down the track and they never went further. No, they never went back. They came to churches, they came to schools. Then came or. Then came the churches. Then came the schools. Then came the lawyers Then came the rules Then came the trains and the trucks and their loads and the dirty old track with the telegraph road.

[B]

Yeah, that.

[A]

That paints.

[B]

And in between there, Mark Knoffler played like a five minute solo, so it's just all awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, that's. It's a great band. Like, one of my regrets. I've never seen them live and they're not around.

[A]

Yeah, maybe AI will be able to do that for the future.

[B]

Well, if whatever technology. Piss off whatever technology we use in a year to have the alien show up, maybe they could put Dire Straits on a stage for Rob o'. Neal. You're not buying the disclosure either. You know, I think Glenn Beck said it best when they said, yeah, the aliens are here, and they're saying they invented everything, including Jesus. And Glenn Becha said, yeah, that sounds like something a demon would say.

[A]

You know what? That's actually kind of a bar.

[B]

That's why I'm rereading it as a history lesson. I'm like, this shit's happening all the time.

[A]

Yeah. So obviously when you've read the Bible in the past, you're reading it from the religious perspective. But what's like reading it historically?

[B]

Yes. Jesus of Nazareth instead of Jesus Christ. Because I want to know what the man was. Because he's the word of God in human form. And so he's a human. So he gets to do the crucifixion. And he knows my time is not yet come. It's coming. And even in the garden during the Last Supper, he's asking like, we got to do this. We got to do this. We're fulfilling the prophecy. So it's like, these are just so. I'm so knowing what he went through and. And the passing of the Christ is a great movie to watch because of. It's not just, I hung him on a cross. He died in five minutes.

[A]

Oh, it's intense.

[B]

It's intense. And that's what they did. That's what Romans did, is crucifixion was probably the worst way to die back then. That getting flayed, which I think one of the apostles definitely did. And these are people like, you don't get flayed for a lie, by the way. If you believe in something and they're cutting you, skinning you, and you still believe it, something's real. But Jesus, the man knowing this is going to happen and goes through it. And then 400 eyewitnesses saw him come back from the dead. I. My faith is, I think, because all the other religions, Maginisa or Jesus, I think Jesus of Nazareth is credible. So I'm going with him. It's just a man that's going through that until you're going to do this, you're going to do this. I'm getting tortured. I'm going to do it. And all he could do was forgive him. The whole time there's, you know, and he just forgave them. They don't know what they do. And Then he rose from the dead. People saw it.

[A]

Yeah. No matter what.

[B]

Except, well, Thomas was late for the first meeting, I guess. He's my favorite apostle. Not only was he late, he didn't believe him. He's like, I need to see the holes. And then Jesus came back. Hey, it's your Savior.

[A]

Nothing wrong with that. Get a little proof.

[B]

Yeah. Trust me. Very trust me.

[A]

Verify.

[B]

You took the words out of my mouth. It wasn't Reagan. It was Thomas. Well, he was the one, too, in the Apostles Creed that made sure we knew he descended into hell. On the third day, he rose from the dead again. St. Thomas made sure that was in there because Jesus went down to heaven to talk to the people who weren't there there before him. Now I'm going to preach to you a little bit and tell you you can be saved too. Like Moses and Abraham. Like that.

[A]

Did you grow up with faith or did that come.

[B]

I grew up Catholic and I went to Catholic school, which means I don't know a thing about it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They don't teach anything.

[A]

Yeah, I went to Catholic school.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. I. I'm literally learning stuff now at 50 that I had no idea. And that's why I'm rereading it. Like when I was taught it's like mythology, just so we can understand. I was like, I'm just gonna go with this because there's a lot of firmament out there, and that's. I think. I think paragraph one of Genesis covers that. So, yeah, let's just. Let's just go. I've been going with this for one. I'm gonna read an entire book based on that.

[A]

I always think of in the beginning of the. Of the Departed, the montage when Jack Nicholson's given the speech and he's like, first we had the church, and that was whatever. Neil, Stan, like, the way he says it, I'm like, like, oh, wow. That makes. That's what it was. You just did what you were. Oh, yeah. We're supposed to say this now. So you never think about it?

[B]

No. Even my thing, because I started going back to the church after I started doing ibogaine for ptsd, which is the plant based medicine, and it opens your mind. So I started doing that.

[A]

And they just legalized.

[B]

Yeah, I was down in the Oval Office with the President for that.

[A]

Oh, that's right. I saw you in there. That's cool.

[B]

And I. I started going back to the church, but then I'm getting nitpicky. Like they're. They Always sing a lot in Catholic church.

[A]

Church.

[B]

And so I'm like, I don't need to hear this lady solo. We should be saying a rose. Serious. I don't need to hear. Because she's one singing. No one sings because we don't blah, blah, blah. And people about it. Whatever. But then I'm like, why are we singing? Well, because God created this world with his voice, and he created man with his breath. And he's the voice of God in the body of Jesus. So your voice, like, look, man, Taliban. No music. Bad guys sing. God wants you to sing. So I'm singing now. I got to learn the lyrics. You know, I mean. I mean, let's be honest. They could have used Eddie Van Halen or something.

[A]

Yeah, they could have used something.

[B]

Something. We need corn from the 90s.

[A]

Yeah. And what's that thing they do, like, Dane Cook used to have that bit where he's like, you never know. They're not singing, but they're not talking. He's just like. And then I take the Eucharist with my holy hands.

[B]

And you're like, well, who is that?

[A]

Who is.

[B]

Who is saying that? Why am Billy. I forget Smashing Pumpkins Billy Cor Morgan. How he was saying. Have you noticed? He said, in the industry, right on the late 90s, they saw Korn performing in front of a hundred thousand crazy. Not the right demographic type guys. And so they immediately shifted. He's like, rock and roll died. Because they don't need men that age. And by demographic, I mean aggressive, straight men. That's it. Like, because you got that right. And so they switched it. They switched. And he said, I'm not saying it was the CIA, but I was there. Error. And it happened. And they shifted it to, like, stuff we couldn't do. Guns and they're all in videos now, R B, all that stuff. And Billy Corgan said that. I didn't. Again, observations.

[A]

That's interesting, too, because you're a guy who worked with those people sometimes, too, in your job. But you can step out and see the compartmentalization, how things could go very wrong in a place like that.

[B]

Well, yeah, you can. You. And we. I mean, we stampedes. And panic is contagious. That's what gets people killed. Toilet paper is a prime example of panic being contagious. During COVID Remember, it disappeared.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know why it disappeared?

[A]

Because people bought the shit out of it.

[B]

Why did they do that, though? Because they saw one guy fucking do it. He bought it all, and then they figured it's Gonna run out. I better buy it. Toilet paper. Get a load of this. Is not a survival necessity. It's nice. That's it. You don't need it. You can clean yourself in a lake. But someone bought it all and some asshole saw him, so he ran to another store. He bought it all. She saw him, they bought it all. We're all. We panic. It's contagious. But you know what else is contagious? Try this. If you can realize nobody knows how you're feeling, that adrenaline calm is contagious.

[A]

As I agree.

[B]

If you can be calm or portray calm and that actually calms people around you down and that'll 100%. It's all, it's all, it's all the. It's all inverted too. That's all the cyclical. But I mean, again, I give myself my own advice as I'm screaming in traffic. Just calm the down, dude.

[A]

Well, that's the thing, like the vibes you give off then, like.

[B]

Yeah, it does. Well, that's the ibogaine thing I was about talking about too, with the.

[A]

When did you do that? 2014.

[B]

I've done it three times. I've done it every year.

[A]

Yeah, but one was the first time.

[B]

The first one was. Oh, no, that would have been 2023. Oh, so yeah, I just started 2023. Yeah, I've done it three times. I've done DMT 5, 15 times.

[A]

What made you want to do it?

[B]

I was getting demonic with alcohol. I was getting bad. Never physical, but I was really just a bad person. I was evil and mean and I was just taking it out of people and I had to stop drinking and it helped me. And then it also helped me quit smoking and. And quit dipping tobacco, which I didn't even intend to.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It just got in my mind. I watched two people in one of my sessions. The first session I went to, I didn't want anyone to know I went. So I went to one of their sober houses and I was with a couple that were both addicted to heroin. Like, bad. And I watched them get cured overnight. Like one of the women was pissed because she said, I didn't have any visions. And he said, yeah, but do you want heroin? She goes, no. He's like, are you dope sick? She goes, no, it worked. So she's got 12 hours of sleep, but it works. It opens your mind and then you can reschedule everything. It really makes you. The only issue is I've done it three times and then five Meo DMT a couple times I have the 30,000 foot view of life. Like it just seems easier to see what's right and what's wrong. Like that's wrong and that's right. You can always tell that too with. You can tell when someone's telling you the truth because they tell you the truth and they stop. Like when you're done saying what you're saying just to stop saying when you have to explain everything. And that's.

[A]

You can you.

[B]

I use this for like depression or anxiety. You're. You can tell your anxiety because it will come to you in a question mark and then the. And the truth comes in a period. So it's like, oh my God, should I be afraid? No. Oh, okay.

[A]

I gotta work on that myself.

[B]

Oh, don't tell me. I don't have it.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

I don't have it. I tell myself, my thing is retell yourself that same because you're acting like an.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're sober. So there's no excuses. My excuse now is I'm 50. You go to the gym now? Dude, I'm 50. Well, that's my one excuse.

[A]

You still probably outperform. Half the 25 year olds in there

[B]

still go to the gym. Never stop going.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I just like to.

[A]

But so you got to a point like, you describe it as like, it was like demonic with you being.

[B]

Yeah. With the alcohol.

[A]

What do you think got you to that point in the first place?

[B]

For a lot of veterans, myself included, post traumatic stress doesn't happen right away. It's about seven years. And then you start to think about it in different ways and it's not the, the oh my God, I almost died is not scary. And it's not scary to get shot at. It's not scary to blow up. That's fucking easy. It happens really quick. It's scary when it gets in your mind when you start thinking, what if I did something different? And there's one guy I think about every single day. I can't help but I still think about him. And he was a bad guy.

[A]

He.

[B]

I mean I just killed his buddy in the, in the foyer. This big old house. I blast him. Went to another. There's an open door and I just, I'm going to go in there. One man entry. Shouldn't do that. I'm going to do it. I went to a room and there's a. Like there's. As you walk in the room, the beds off to my right and there's a woman and a. And a man in the Bed. And I get to the foot of the bed, and the guy sort of wakes up. He heard me shoot, but it's suppressed. He wakes up, and I'm kind of. Look, I haven't. White light. White light him yet. And he. He throws a kick. And I'm like, you know, I just woke you up two in the morning, dog. Just chill out. And I go, one more. And the guy gets up, he's kicking again. Another guy comes in with me, and he's throwing a kick. And I'm like, yeah, he just. We're giving him a second. Then I look over. There's an AK right there. And I look at the guy and I go, come on, dude. Just don't. Come on, you're. And he went for it. I blasted him, killed him. And then I did. White line. The wife sees it, and she just went to bed with him a couple hours ago. He's dead and whatever. But then seven years later, it's like, you know what you think about it? And it's like, okay, I told him not to go for the gun, but why did he go for that gun? Well, he went for the gun because I'm in his room with his wife at 2 in the morning. Well, why am I in his room? Oh, because we decided to invade Iraq in 2003, even though it had nothing to do with 9 11, because George Bush was pissed about something. Then you start to wonder, what if I met him just somewhere else? Like, he's a bad guy, but I've had lunch with the Taliban. I've eaten out the same bowl of rice, and they handed me a cold Coca Cola. I was more amazed they had a cold Coke in a cave. But he's like, so you can be. You can meet with these people. But then I'm like, what if I met him, like, in person, Paris, at a coffee shop. And would he have told me a joke? But everything that ever mattered to this dude is gone because I decided to shoot him. Did I? Like, that's. Anyway, start to wonder, then, okay, I'm gonna drink because I don't want to think about him. Then you have a couple drinks, you go out with the boys. Rage, blackout. Next day, you wake up, you're like, boy, that's. You know what would help is a Bloody Mary or five. And then just drink all day. Wake up the next day, and it's just a cycle. And then you're pissed. Don't tell me I drink too much. Angry. And then you have to realize, like, okay, I need to help now. And My. A lot of my buddies from six had quit drinking. I'd see them and I would ask them, and then they. No one told me. Ibogaine. I don't know why. And then finally someone said, you should do ibogaine. I did, and it took three times. But I have a look at that tattoo I got. Speaking of short term goals, that's my first sober day. 7, 18, 25 on my drinking hand.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So I have to look at it. But like, I was like, I got done. I'm like, that's it. Like, it doesn't make sense to me anymore. That's. I begin. It just. I. It's not like it's bad for me. And I love to see people enjoy themselves with some good wine or a really good scotch. Just doesn't make sense to me.

[A]

Yeah. It's like you knew what it did to you, and now it's like.

[B]

And it's kind of cool. I can say that. I, you know, I lived half of my life drunk, and now I live half sober. And we'll see how that goes.

[A]

Yeah. That's a wide. To your point, though, that's a while after, like, you were clearly dealing with that for. For a bit. Because it's a while after your career actively in the military is over and.

[B]

Well, because now you're in the private sector.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And people get offended if you make an off color joke about the floor of an apartment building. Yeah.

[A]

These were the wrong years, too.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Tough years for you.

[B]

I mean, I remember talking to Dakota about Dakota Meyer, Metal honor recipient, Marine. His story is insane. And he killed a guy with a rock. And he said, there's a moment in time where we're looking at each other and we both know what's about to happen. Like, what the is that? That's Gladiator.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then. And oh, by the way, don't freak out at the PTA meeting because the chairman's a. And he's really good at violence.

[A]

Yeah. I think about this a lot, though, because I. I think it's the heaviest thing ever. And I could not even imagine it. Right. Like the idea that it's like you or someone else and. And you're in like an active war zone with these situations you're talking about. It's the highest.

[B]

Well, and you got to figure two out. At the time, it's almost a competition. Who got. Who got. How many. Did you get more than the sniper today? Because we had a. Well, I had an ongoing joke with the snipers because you get a Choice at a certain point in Seal Team 6, like, I'm going to stay as an assaulter or I'm going to recce snipers. And I, I was a sniper, everyone was. But I want to stay in a salter. And some of my buddies went on. They're the guys that rescued Richard Phillips. That's pretty cool. And they said, why wouldn't you go to snipers? I said, I got a feeling snipers are going to kill more people, but we're going to kill more famous people. And then, And I'm just joking, like, even on the bin laundry, we're joking about who's going to get them. Like you're going to get them outside with the machine gun. Because I'm going to get to the third floor, he's going to pop one of those emergency exits from a plane. This yellow airplane movie shits. He's going to slide right down in front of your side, you're going to blast him. That's how this is going down.

[A]

Jesus Christ. Oh my God. It is. I do have to say, like, you're flying your.

[B]

Dude, you're flying with a lacrosse team. That's what you're like, these are the best people in the world and I'm going to die with them.

[A]

The fact that you guys had this is what always blows my mind. The fact that you guys had it planned so well though, that you had literally planned for one of the helicopters to be completely.

[B]

Yeah, but we only planned that for 30 seconds. That was a.

[A]

But you still had that planned. And then it worked.

[B]

We're standing around the table and we're all exhausted and the boss just goes, all right, what's the worst thing that can happen? And one of the dudes goes, well, the helicopter could crash the front yard. Like, we just want to go to bed. We're like, what the man? And he's like. And literally he's like, maybe we should talk about that for 30 seconds. And we did. And that's exactly what happened. I didn't even know the thing crashed. I was outside. I was supposed to go to the roof.

[A]

You couldn't hear it?

[B]

No, I heard dash one going around. So this is on the. So they're gonna fast up in front of his house, we're gonna drop snipers off and then I'm going to the roof of the team. And so we drop them, we lift up and then the pilot just goes back down outside of the 20 foot wall and says, get out. So we did. And I had a bottle of piss in my I forgot to take. I did the whole mission with a bottle of piston my pocket. So I step out. I remember thinking, I'm not going to the roof. But I it. I'll start the war from here.

[A]

I'll start the war from here.

[B]

That's why preparation, not planning. And off to my left hand side, there's a double door on the northeast corner. We'll just go blast that. So we went over there and the. The breacher came up and he decided to use a seven foot charge of C6, which is a master key that's getting you in anywhere. So he put it down, down. And like C6 is just two more. Awesome. Or the C4. Like I don't know. It's magic. So he backs off and blows it. And it's a. It's a brick wall again. Like it's a. The door opens brick wall. And we're just fortunate that we're experienced because this is just. Okay, it's a hiccup. And we. He goes, failed breaches. This is bad. And I go, no, this is good, man. This is good. That's a fake door. And no one does that. Yep, he's in there. All right, so we're gonna go that way. So we're gonna cross this. We're still outside. Like there's this house house. We know the carport opens, so we're gonna go blast that. And we heard dash one going around. So they're. They took fire trying to fast rope. So they're just re attacking. So I'm gonna give them a courtesy. We're gonna blast. This is so and so we're gonna blast the carport. And they said, no, no, don't, don't, don't, don't blast it. We'll open it. And it opened and the thumbs up came out. And I recognize the glove.

[A]

One R's.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm at a point in life now. Seriously. And try this. It does. Hey, it doesn't matter why I'm here. I'm just here here. No, I'm just here now. When I talk to NFL teams, the offense, I'll say it doesn't ever matter why it's second and 15, because it just is. And what we all have in common is not who missed the assignment is that clock that's ticking. What are you going to do about it? So we just go in there. Obviously, the flight crew from the first bird is standing there. They have American flags, but different cammies. I'm so out of it with how I actually asked them who the fuck are you guys? As I'm going into Bin Laden's house. House, it doesn't register that they crashed. And then I get in the house in the hallway in the right side room. And then the guys are clearing and just get out of the hallway. If you're getting shot at ever, just

[A]

get out the hallway.

[B]

So I'm in there and there's a dude from the first bird and I. And there's two. The two dead guys or the dead guy and the dead woman are right there. And I'm watching my guys and I'm looking for thermal bear charges because this house is going to blow up. They're good.

[A]

You know, you guys have the night vision on. But how much, you know, for people out there who've never worn night vision, like, how much can you really see?

[B]

Well, for us, right at first with night vision, you're going to lose a little depth perception. But we're, we're doing nighttime high altitude, high opening skydives onto cliffs in Arizona with night vision, like, we can see. We're good. You get used to it. It's like anything else. And then, you know, we would train everything with it so you're. We're good. And even dudes had the, the quad knots. They just came out. So you got the four cylinders. I use the two. Because I've been using those forever. I'm like, I'm not going to try out new nods on this mission. Have them on backwards. Let's do that for a try. Yeah, some guys did, man. They wore the new. I did.

[A]

And.

[B]

But I get in the thing and he's discussing. He said, helicopter crash. And I, I said, oh, my God. What? What? Helicopter crashed. Because I thought the 47s that aren't stealth got shot down now because right about now they should be coming in. And he goes, bro, like, our helicopter crashed. Like, I think you walked right past. And so I had to get clever with him. Like, well, I was looking that way because that's been Lawton's house. I don't know, dude. So I'm like, then it's registered. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course. That's why. Okay, those are the pilots. It makes sense. Sense. You know, all this was in the blink of an eye. And then. But then the sniper from our bird is running around the entire compound, and his job is, he's got Cairo and Cheese, and their job is to make sure no one escapes. Like, we're going to run him down with Cairo. And he didn't know they crashed yeah, and he, he, he didn't know they crashed, but he got, he's outside and he saw the, the, the. What the pilot had done is he pinned it so he stuck the tail on the. We had the four best pilots in the world on this. So he stuck it and put the tail, or the tail on the fence and the nose in the dirt. Because he said an inexperienced pilot, when he couldn't hold the updraft, would have powered up and killed everyone. But he knew if he, he might be able to do this, like literally, that's all nonchalant, so he stuck it. The sniper is out there with Cairo and Cheese and he looks up and he didn't know they crashed. So what registered to him was, hey, guys, inside, be on alert because they're ready for us. They've got a training mock up of our super secret helicopter in the front yard. And the ground force commander after an aqua pause says, no, jackass, that's ours because we crashed. And the sniper goes, yeah, that makes a lot more sense than the shit I was just saying. And that's when it registers. Oh, yeah, they crashed. So now we're in the room. And I love the human element of everything though, because we talked about corruption, we talked about money, but we also talk about relationships. Like, I know these dudes really well, so I'm looking down and we know we can tell who we are. I've had my life saved before by a sniper in Afghanistan. I remember he knew who I was. He could tell from a distance in the dark who I was by the way that I walked. Like we really know each other. Other. So I'm looking down this hallway, this dude, Six Three, and he's working this door as a breacher. And what you do as a breacher, you just, you just escalate force. So you go up to a door, see if it's unlocked. It might just be unlocked.

[A]

They walk right in.

[B]

And so that's not okay. Now I gotta figure it out. So it's, it's barricaded where they start working, okay? There's no hinges, so it's gonna open. And I need a sledgehammer like that, okay, I need some. Start prepping charges. Get the chainsaw going, all this. So I'm watching My Buddy 6 3, and he's working this room where the woman that founded Lodge Said said, I don't know where, but there will be a stairwell. And she said, you'll run into Khalid bin Laden if you can ace him. You get a shot at the big guy, which Is one of the coolest sentence I've ever heard anyone say. So he's breaching and I'm just, now I got nothing to do. There's no bombs. I don't know why. And I'm just watching but I'm thinking, I know that dude, man. I went through training with him in the 90s. Just wow. I remember checking in the SEAL team too with that dude. I remember on Wednesday nights we'd go out to Hot Tuna. It was a bar in Virginia beach on Shore Drive because all the pilots from Oceana would show up, the girls would all check, show up. We're all single, have a blast, but don't drink too much because we're going to be breaching explosive on Thursday. Then I remember breaching school, all that. We went through Seal Team 6 selection together. I remember being in D team with him in Green Team. The hardest training in the world going through that. And we checked into Red Squadron together. I remember being on the, on the mountain to rescue Marcus Latrell with him. I remember doing the jump to rescue Richard Phillips with that dude. Now he's breaching Osam bin Laden's house. And I'm watching. Holy fuck, I'm so proud of that dude. And I'm just thinking like, all right, this is so. And then boom, let's go. And it's all quiet.

[A]

And this is your element.

[B]

Like, these are my guys.

[A]

Every time I hear you guys talk about this, it's like, this is a Tuesday, you know, like, well, I mean it's a one way mission in that way, but it's a Tuesday. We've done this before.

[B]

Yeah. And again, we've done this a hundred thousand times. We. I've shot this type of weapon a million times. I know where it goes, I know what works. And now we're on a stairwell and Khalid was there and he jumped behind us, his banister. And he's armed. I think he had a 74. And my.

[A]

Who smoked him?

[B]

The one of the two point men on the stairs. The. I've heard a lot about the word point man because I was led up the last set of stairs by a point man. But what people fail to realize, there's not a point man. And then we just hot, hot, hot behind him. SEAL Team 6, close quarters battle. If I sat here and explained it for five hours, people wouldn't understand it. It is so fluid and so fast. When we eventually got into Bin Laden's room, boom. I was in a two man train. The three man up was a point man. Of a second train. Like, that's the dynamics of all this. We got to a point where, like, we have to simplify the rules because it's so fast. One of our rules was, no shit. Don't shoot someone who looks like you. Everything else it. I don't care. You point at me as lord, I don't give a. Don't shoot me. So we're on the stairwell, and I should take guys out because I'm eight guys back and I don't have a shot. And if you're fighting up in an urban environment, they might throw stuff down. So I should grab some dudes, let two, maybe three guys handle this. But this is it. I got to see what happens, man. I can't miss this. This is historic. And we're really quiet. We're very good at that. We learned we're silent. We don't say shit because you don't know where we are. And we're. We're slow, but we're really fast and are very accurate with our shots because we know that our eyes are faster than our bullets and shit like that. Anything we're shooting is worth shooting. It's not two to the chest, one to the head. It's two to the fucking head. So they're on this thing. And he whispered to him, Khalid. And he said something like delta Rasha or something. He said, come here or something in Arabic or Pashtun and then Urdu or something. Something that he knew Khalid's name and what to say. And he just looked over what it's like, dude, that's the coldest thing, the coolest thing I've ever seen. And we step over him, get to the next train. And the. The. It was one of the two guys that I. I could recognize. And then another guy took point going up the third. He took some shots before he got there. So he'd taken shots. And guys go to the left and right.

[A]

And now.

[B]

So now they're clearing these two spots. And you don't want to go to another level until you have this level clear. Just avoids. And we only got 23 dudes. Totally.

[A]

Steve, can we pull up just, like, a geometric re. Rendering of the compound, too, Just so we have that. Like, while you're explaining this is. Sometimes we gotta reference something, but that makes sense. So, guys, what you would have, like, I'm just making up numbers, but maybe two guys going to this room. Two guys, and now you have two.

[B]

So it's like two or three. Three this way. And then there's down to two of us.

[A]

And the thing I'm thinking about, maybe this is a bad visual, but if you ever stand and watch like a bunch of ants make their fucking kingdom, you'll see all them like in a line, like going towards something. Then suddenly like a bunch will peel off like this or like that. And then they building something over here or something over there. I don't know. Maybe I'm up. I just watched this when I was a kid. But like, that's kind of like. Well, I mean, I get. Because they're like right in their spot, you know?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I don't want to get too deep into tactics, but wherever. Wherever your buddy's pointing, just cover to the opposite. And that's. You can. You can get. And slow the down. Yeah, that's like you're looking at. Yeah, that's his house. Trying to figure. Yeah. So that's the front door right there with the satellite dis. So that's like a garden. And then the front door is below that, that. And so we ended. So if you look at the main house, the. The windows on the left there, one of my guys shot through that and killed, I think Abrar. And then his wife or Kuadi.

[A]

No, no, the windows on the left right here.

[B]

So we came in there. That's the front door right there. And he glassed in. And so the room I was in was off to the right there.

[A]

Got it. Okay. How many total guys were on this again? In. In each chopper?

[B]

We had 23 total.

[A]

Total 23.

[B]

So we had. Yeah, a couple each Burden pilots. They weren't part of the 23.

[A]

And it was a 32 minutes land

[B]

and then we was 32. But we were on there. I think we held for 47 because we found so much stuff.

[A]

Okay, how long until he was killed?

[B]

Probably 11 minutes.

[A]

11 minutes. I think either way, this is not like two minutes, you know?

[B]

No, no. Because we had that problem and our guys, like, that's Navy Cross that. The. That my buddy reaching that door should have got a Navy Navy Cross.

[A]

Right.

[B]

At least. And then the guy in front of me should still get the medal of Honor.

[A]

Right.

[B]

For going. Because we went up the last set of steps. He was right in front of me. There was a curtain. And the reason we went up is because he could see people moving and he assumed like what he was sort of saying he didn't know was me, but he knew it was one of his guys. And he's sort of pimping like, we gotta go. And he's talking like, when we don't talk. And, and he was sort of saying in not so many words, those are the suicide bombers, we can beat him, but we have to go right now. And it sucked, but we got to go. And I remember, and I remember looking down and I can see my shoes again. I was wearing lower, I still have them. And I remember not bravery, but we're going to blow up now. I'm tired of thinking about it. And we just went, and so we went up and so he immediately jumped on the two women that he thought were suicide bombers. And when we got back, standing over Bin Laden's body, Admiral McRaven, this guy's name's still not out, but he was appointment in that room. He said, you jumped on two suicide bombers, why? And he said without knowing it was me, he said, said I didn't want the guy behind me to die. Like that's all that was his thought process. I got this like, and because he did that, I just turned right. There's been lines standing there.

[A]

And did you think that. Because the whole issue here is like people have argued about the after action report. Right. So at the time, because you guys would go do a mission, you do an after action report, it's like two seconds, it's whatever. This is just standard because that's what you did for a living. This one's different because it's like you killed bin Laden.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But at the time were you worried that the point man was going to get blamed for not shooting him first even though like he did something extremely brave?

[B]

No, no, he, I didn't, no, no, I, I just, he, he didn't do anything wrong. He, no, he just, I mean it's, it's hard to, I don't know where the controversy is. I'm, I don't like to tell other people's stories. I like to, I can tell you what I saw and what I didn't. I mean what he did was I'm still evil advocating for a medal of Honor for that guy. Yeah, I mean it's just, I mean once it's, it's all over then people get in there and it might get confusing or what. Like I said, because when I moved Amal bin Laden, because after I shot bin Laden three times, I moved him, like I looked down at his two year old son Hussein and thought as a father, this kid's got nothing to do with this. What the type moment. Like what are we doing here? So I moved them and came back and then that's when other guys are in There. And there were other shots fired. And I have to walk over, I have to get a picture of bin Laden because are saying is if you kill him, you own him. So I got to go get a picture. And as I was walking over, I actually got stopped by one of the guys because I guess I was moving slower. And he goes, hey, are you good? And I said, what do we do now? And he laughed. And he goes, now we find the computers, man. You do this every night. Hundreds of times you've done this. All right. And I go, yeah, yeah, you're right. Holy shit. And he goes, yeah, you just killed Osama bin Laden. Your life just changed. Nobody cares. Get to work. Like, all right, you're welcome.

[A]

Did it. Did you process?

[B]

Sort of. Because, well, what I processed then was, that's it. This is the last room. That's like the boss. We can live now. Let's live now. Holy. If we can live, we get my. I get to see my kids again. So that's what I think. So let's. All right, let's hustle this up. We got to get them in a body bag. I went to the second floor. We got to find computers. We did. There was. I. The. When I went in the first floor on the first room on the second floor. So the. We entered bin Laden's thing, but I went back down to this one. I pulled this huge, like, sea bag from under a bed and open it. And I thought they were vacuum sealed ribeye steaks. And I'm looking at it like, man, they're in it for the long haul. But it's like, oh, this is raw opium. Like they're funding Al Qaeda from here. And then you start to find. It's like, okay, break that computer. Pull out the hard drive. Holy. Take that. Take this. You're going to like, like, floppy dis from, like, Weird Science. Like, holy. Get it all. So we're gathering and then you, you know, you got to keep your. It's like the whole pull back a little bit. What? How much time? All right, start rounding it up. We gotta. We gotta blow up that bird. We gotta call in another one. We gotta get on that thing. Let's go. And like, literally walking around, hey, we're leaving. And they're like, well, these women, like, tell them if they go outside, we have a plane ride about. They're gonna just lie to them, dude. And then we did. So we gave the body to the first team. They got on our bird. Then we called in Chinook and it came in. And that's when that dude was out there tweeting and they land and then,

[A]

you know, I didn't realize he was that close. I think I've heard you talk about the dude out there. I didn't know that was the same guy I was thinking of, though. I thought he was a little farther away.

[B]

Well, this guy was right there, so I'm assuming it's him. And I follow him on Twitter. I don't think he follows me. So I just remember you got to do to get a fall for Pakistan.

[A]

The guy was like the play the mic to Rico of like the raid. Like every.

[B]

Yeah, he was doing.

[A]

He was live tweeting and he was tagging like, Islamabad.

[B]

That's him. Like, oh my. Yeah.

[A]

God.

[B]

A bought a bed.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But then we let. Well, that. That was the weird part too is we had a 90 minute flight out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we know they're going to shoot us down now because they have F16s. We sold them. And this is the whole ally counting.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Well, if you're worried about something that's not going to help, you're just wasting your energy. So I just started my watch and I got to live for 90 minutes. Then I get 50 years. That's what I was thinking. If I can live for 90 minutes, I get to see my kids, man.

[A]

Was it on the way in there or the way out that you were

[B]

counting one Mississippi that was on the way in.

[A]

Right.

[B]

To keep my mind off of getting shot down, I watch.

[A]

So I watched that.

[B]

That's when I remembered the saying. I was counting like 80 minutes out when we banked to the south. And I was like, 556, 557. Freedom itself was attacked this morning by a faceless coward. And freedom will be defended.

[A]

God.

[B]

And I couldn't remember why I. How I remembered that, but I'm like, I'm not counting on Freedom itself was attacked this morning by a faceless coward. And freedom will be defended. Like, I'm being inspired. And then it hit me like I'm getting goosebumps right now. I'm like, holy, this is the team. I'm on it. We're gonna kill him. Like, it really hit me. Then it's. And then the air. This guy, the air crew guy, his job, he's a crew chief. His job is to keep the bird flying and open the door for us. That's his job. How important is that? That he reached over and opened the door. If that would have taken us six seconds to figure out on the deck, who knows with Six seconds. But he did. Did Even with him, I'm like, his family would miss him just as much if we could hit up the ass with a missile. And no one talks about what a hero. This guy, he opened the door, then I look out and my next thought is, oh, this is some serious Navy seals we're about to do. And that was like the last clear thought. They're all, hell, it goes out the window. But yeah, the air crew guy, the pilots and all that. And then. So we call that other bird and now there's more pilots. And these guys flew in a school bus with Seal Team 6 operating on it like this thing is going to get shot down and we're going to get followed by F16s that we sold them. Yeah. So we get on a bird and I'm, I'm sitting next to the sniper that rescued Richard Phillips, which is badass. And he had been getting. When you do something at that level, at that level, rescue Richard Phillips, you're the guy that gets him. Just people get a little professional jealousy. So they were giving him at the command about, you smelled like booze. When he came back, it's like, what? Whatever. But I would always give, I would always give him my dip. And I would say, hey, you're a hero. Don't listen to those guys. Take my dip. I always say this to him at the command, always. And then we're flying out on the bin Laden raid, and I can't believe what just happened. I might live in this can of dip. Came in front of my night vision. It's him right next to me. And he yelled, hey, Nizro, now you know what it's like to be a hero. I'm like, dude, I can't write this, but the guy that rescued Richard Phillips just gave me a can of dip. It's been 20 minutes. If I can live to 90, dude, I get to see my. It's been 30 minutes. You can't, but you can hear like the helicopter. 40 minutes, 50 minutes. I started thinking about a no hitter at Yankee stadium right about 60 minutes. Like top of the seventh, no hitter. I. I'm not going to say anything. I don't want to jinx this. It's been 70, 80 minutes. I, I remember, I can. I could hear Al Michael's voice in my head right around the 80 minute mark because he was commentating for the Winter Olympics in 1980 at Lake Placid. And you got those Americans, man. They had a couple special. These kids hated each other, loved hockey. They hate their Fucking coach. They have no business being on the ice with the greatest team ever assembled in these Russians who were just injected with steroids 7ft tall and are beating Olympic teams by 10 fucking goals in the Olympics. And they shouldn't. But now they're winning. It's four to three and the third you can hear on Michael's voice. I'm 85 minutes into a 90 minute flight. Five seconds left. Do you believe America? And the pilot came over the radio in that cool monotone voice that they always use to calm us down in every flight you've ever been on. He said, all right, gentlemen, for the first time in your lives, you're going to be happy to hear this. Welcome to Afghanistan. Just calm. And it's like, can we pull our dicks out or what?

[A]

Dude, you got his body in the back.

[B]

Yeah, well, he was in the other room. So, so they, we land. They land and then we, we. The point man was on the other bird. I really want to talk to him because we were on the stairs to get together. So we go over the corner. We're like, what the happened? His like biggest at that time was where was everyone? And I'm like, Dude, we had 23 guys. Like, we're down to us. That's. And so. And then he, he's pissed off or whatever, but he looks over and goes, oh, there she is, man. You gotta, you gotta give her something. You own this. I shot him. And there's a woman that found Bin Laden. So I was like, okay, let's, well, let's go over there. So we walk over, bin Laden's body's over here and other seals are looking at him. And I pulled the magazine out in the last round and I said, hey, do you have room for the. In your backpack? And she said, yeah, I think so. I said, well, we have something to show you. And as we're walking her over to Bin Laden's body, it starts to sink in because we're so close to the fire we've done. Cap felt we did Lone Survivor. Like, we don't realize the true right. But now it's like, okay, this is going to be in the books.

[A]

Had you really had a chance in the room in the moment to like look down and through the night vision and grasp that that was his body there.

[B]

If they ever released the pictures from the target. Those are my gloves holding his head together. And I actually just gave that left hand glove to Conor McGregor because he. We're, we're business partners now. It's like you put People down with the left. I did with my right. So here's this. But those gloves are in the picture. Except my. I won't get a rematch. My fight's over. But we walk her over, and in the movie, like, she cried, and it was emotional, and they left her alone. It was something. My. The way I remember it, and she might have a different story, is we walk over and I, like, was realizing the only reason we're here is because of her. Her sacrifice. No. No kids, no husband. Seven days a week, 20 hours a day. She was working everywhere to find him. And then I put pressure on myself. I'm like, shit, I got to think of something cool to say. This is the one time think of something cool. And I pointed down and just said, is that your guy? And she looked down for a second, her life's work, and hit someone on the back and goes, I guess I'm out of a fucking job. And left. She left. Got on her own plane and left just like that. That's him. I'm out. Good job. Him. How cool is that?

[A]

Yeah, that's pretty good.

[B]

That's, like, the coolest story I have, and it's not even mine.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now you. I love. We've been going, like, out of order. I love podcasts like this that are going all over. Like, they're my favorite. But when.

[B]

I didn't know we were recording.

[A]

When. When you. Yeah, you know, recording at the beginning. That's the best. But what. When you. They found him? Allegedly. They. They felt like they had the compound, if I remember correctly, like, late the summer before, for.

[B]

Yeah, well, they'd found him for a couple years, but then they had, like,

[A]

more confirmation, I think, that they told

[B]

maybe JSOC about it. They told JSOC before the President, I think. And then they started briefing him up. And I remember that in particular because we finished a deployment in Afghanistan. I was running all the outstations out of this.

[A]

What month?

[B]

January, February of 2011. I was actually working on the same base where the bin Laden team was. And that's how good this team was. I didn't even know they were there. I was at a point in my career, In February of 11, I was with terrorists. I was interrogating on target just because bin Laden, like, I literally be like, okay, how many men are in the house? What are their names? Who's the man of the house? Where's Osama bin Laden? And I would see guys, like, break under the turf. Like, I'm like, I know. No one knows. Like, with guys no one knows. And so I'm working with the CIA team without knowing it. And then we go back and then we had a. I was running a dive trip to south beach, which is a good deal after deployment, like, you get a dive. We're working on motherships for the small pirate bullshit. We're in south beach, we're going out at night. So it's awesome. And the only bad thing about that trip was the commanding officer and the command master chief are coming with us. I was like, well, fuck then, like three days before, like, hey, they got to go to dc. They can't come. So we're excited not realizing they had to go to dc. Final stamp, then they're going to tell about five of you motherfuckers. Trips over, you're going to war. And that was what happened. Then we got recalled. And that was just a cool recall because it started off with, this is not a drill. This is real.

[A]

We have a sound.

[B]

No, they said, we found a thing, a thing. And this thing is in a house. And this house is in a bowl in these mountains. And these mountains are in a country. And you're going to go get this thing and you're going to bring it to us and show it to us. And we're like, sweet. What's the thing? Well, we can't tell you. Okay, well, what mountain range? Can't tell you. What country? Can't tell you. How are we getting there? Can't tell you. How much air support? None. Okay, there's an answer. That's all we knew at first. And then, you know, we were even getting our. This is actually a hilarious story. We assumed it was Gaddafi in Libya. This is 20, 20, 2011. So Arab Spring just started.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, then they don't want to tell us because we're flying on flat tops in ospreys and they have a bad track record. That's what it is. And they said one more thing. You're not bringing any Air Force guys. And there are our ccts and our pjs are basically the. The CCT guys call all the aircraft. They're the most dangerous man on the battlefield. And the PJs are. They're both shooters, they're surgeons. But you're not bringing any because we're just taking us. So if you used to carry med shit, get your ready. So like, we'd be down in our cages and like, dudes, I remember a dude from Gold, Gold Team came up to me and goes, hey, this super secret mission, man, what is it? I'M like, I don't know. And he goes, come on, come on, dog, you can tell me. I'm like, I don't know. And so they thought we're being cocky and we just legit don't know. And we're getting our ready. And on a Friday in Virginia beach, they said, okay, go home now and be with your kids. Come back, be here at 05 on Sunday. We're driving to a spot, we're going to read you in on what's happening. We're like, okay, well, and then fly you out. No, they're going to read us in. We don't even know what the mission is yet. We think it's Gaddafi. We're like, okay, well, are we in

[A]

April now or is it.

[B]

We're in April and we're just, we'd been, we'd been read in, sort of. Not really. But now on Sunday, we're going to drive down to a read in and we're like, who's going to be at the read? Read in? They said, the vice President, Secretary, Defense Secretary, the Navy. Like, what the. And they're going down this list. But one of the. See, we still think we're going to Libya. And then they said, CTC pad will be there, blah, blah, blah. They go down the list. I'm like, counter terror, ca, Pakistan, Afghanistan. I didn't say anything. Like, if we're going to Libya, I'm going to go home with this. I didn't say anything, right? So we go home. I came back Sunday morning. This is a great story. We're. And we're driving down. They split us up. Four dudes per van. My boss is sitting next to me. Two guys are up front and I explained that to them. CTC pad, this is not Gaddafi. This has been Laden.

[A]

You said.

[B]

And my boss looked at me and he goes, that is exactly what I was thinking. So we're just having a conversation. And the guy driving, I'll never forget, looked me in. My nickname was Nisro. Navy SEAL Rob o', Neal, nsro. He looked me in the mirror, goes, man, Nisro, if we kill Osama bin Laden, I will suck your dick. Just like that. That. And that was funny as we laughed. Three weeks to the day, we were standing over him and I looked at him and go, hey, homie, now's a good time. He's in. And he forgot. And he goes, you, dude. I'm like, dude, we got 32 minutes on target. But then, but then we get to the spot. It was just a funny Moment and then we get to the spot and there's an armed guard, like a half a pot of coffee and six donuts. And they lock the door. And the commanding officer, SEAL Team 6 with the bin Laden lady and she go. They said, all right, the reason you guys are here, this is as close as we've ever been to Osama bin Laden. Then it sinks and then we're just okay. And. But it was cool. Being with these shooters was. No one was excited. Like, sweet. We going home now? Like, are we going now? Like, I got to grab my gun. Like, no, we have to train. It's like, no, we don't. They. They wanted to see us train to. So they. Because we were one of five options.

[A]

Do you know who the other options were?

[B]

Yeah, it was us alone. Us with the Pakistanis. Which we laughed right out of the room like, yeah, tell them. And then it was two, three types of bombings. One of them was a. The air force recommended 22 of those JDMs. And you're not going to know what happened to anyone. Like about a bad's gone and it's a resort town bad news. And then like there was a hammer throw which is, we know the pacers in there. We'll just chuck one. Like you're gonna miss. I've seen guys get blown up and on. They lost a hat, right? Yeah, so. And then, then. And President Obama was pretty cool. The word we got, he told us later when we met him, was I was never 100 convinced Bin Laden was there, but after seeing you, I was convinced you could go in, find out and come back. Which is pretty. I mean that's all we ask it. That's. Give it. Give us some latitude and we'll do it. Yeah, I mean he. Dude, both sides of the hour were tits on that one.

[A]

Was it at that meeting where they actually told you the country in the detail and read you in on what the. On what the.

[B]

Yeah, well, they. They were reading us into a point where like she was explaining exactly how she found out him to a point where it's like, enough.

[A]

That's also an amazing story though. Like how it all came because. Because they had, you know, I've had Shawnee Delaney in here, who didn't even know at the time that part of her intelligence went into this because they

[B]

had like a cell compartmentalized so well,

[A]

you'd send everything into the cell.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I guess this lady was the organizer of it.

[B]

Yeah, she was. And I tell people too when I give presentations. As far as running A high performance team that if anyone says it's a need to know basis and you don't need to know, is just trying to sound sound cool. Make sure your team knows what they're doing and why it's something that high tech and advanced that intel the way they compartmentalize it into a cell where legit. Everyone doesn't need to fucking know. That's the way to do. That's why we found. I mean, that's why presidents don't know about NASA. That's why presidents don't know shit. Because they're a visitor, right? Maybe eight years are gone.

[A]

They'll be here. The people there are there before they got there. They're gonna be there after they leave.

[B]

That's just the way it works.

[A]

100%.

[B]

I mean, with like. Chuck Schumer is on video saying you mess with these intel folks six ways from Sunday. And he's not lying because he's been in there. He's been in the Senate for 800 years. He knows what's going on.

[A]

He knows how to play the game,

[B]

doesn't play the game, doesn't know what's going on. He can't even make a cheeseburger. It's most embarrassing.

[A]

It's pretty sad.

[B]

Are you shitting me right now? And that, that's an example. Here's, here's. Here's a politician trying to be an everyman. You think he gives a about your overtime? Can't make a cheeseburger.

[A]

Can't make a cheeseburger. This was an upsetting. Was there a video of it or was it just this?

[B]

I think it was just a picture.

[A]

It was just the still. Which means he's. He stood in there first.

[B]

He. He posed for that. I mean, unless they like it raw, which is fine, whatever. Maybe he's just a. Maybe he's just a pimp.

[A]

Man, oh man, that's so bad. So you, that's what. When you get read in, that's what, like two, three weeks before the mission?

[B]

Yeah, about three weeks. So we stayed there in North Carolina. They built a site. And so we worked on that site every night. And then someone had a model that we we just. They were good to give us the tactical authority to come. Come up with the plan on the ground, which you should. And then like, even pilots know that if we get wrecked or on the ground, I got this. And so they let us come up with the plan. We came with the plan. We briefed it a bunch of times. I mean, we rehearse way too Much, though.

[A]

Way too much.

[B]

If anything, you're going to get complacent with that much rehearsal. You just.

[A]

Why do you say that?

[B]

Because you're going to. Okay, there's definitely a right hand turn. We go in the house. Oh, there isn't a left hand turn. What are you doing? No, I. Hey, there's going to be five men and 10 women and 30 children. Don't. There's 45 people. People. I'll figure it out. Don't you tell me what you know because you don't know it. And it. Just rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. Like, I remember I was getting tendonitis so bad, my forearms from fast roping. It's like I can assume I know how to fast rope. I don't need to do it 15 times a day from 90ft. I just, I can just do it.

[A]

Did you. When you're going through all the, all the practice, though, they still have the five options on the table. I thought they had eliminated some of the bombings by then, but. But they definitely weren't, weren't going to work with Pakistan by then. But did you think when they actually told you we're going to do it, which I guess was a couple days before, before that moment, were you like, pretty sure this was definitely going to happen or were you still.

[B]

They gave us the green light, I think on a Thursday night, and we left Sunday. They. On Thursday. I think they gave us a green light for Saturday and Sunday.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because I do remember watching part of the NFL draft. I was a Redskins fan until political correctness killed my favorite team and part of my childhood. But I was watching, I was on the treadmill. I wasn't working out too hard, but we were, you know, we were working out, stretching jiu jitsu a little bit just to keep light. I was walking on a treadmill watching the draft, like, okay, they're gonna pick an old lineman because. And I remember stopping thinking, I'm gonna be dead in a week. Like, it doesn't matter. Like, that was the mindset. Like, this is just.

[A]

So when you're doing all with like from that very first, this is what I was really trying to also hammer down earlier from that very first meeting, when you first hear about what this is and where it is and who it is, is that when you had the thought, like, oh, we're not coming back from this?

[B]

No, it. We had to think how we're going to get in there. We know a bottle beds this many miles in. So what are you going to do. And we were looking at free fall options. We're looking at offsets. I don't want to get into some stuff that we were thinking just to do it in one cycle of darkness is we had to land on the X. We had a fast rope right in front of his house.

[A]

And then you're like, all right, this is.

[B]

That part there. It's like, well, that means we have to fly in there. And they are not a third world country. So, I mean, they have first world defenses. We. And we don't know when we had. Took us till Venezuela to prove that those suck.

[A]

And this was. This was also, what, like three quarter miles or something from the West Point?

[B]

Yeah, their West Point was a mile, but they're not gonna. They're not a problem. Like, if our West Point gets invaded, it's not the cadets that are coming, it's the local police.

[A]

That's funny that. That was like.

[B]

I mean, they got nuclear right there, too. And that's like one of our concerns. Like. Like, we're gonna fly over this. Because if we're invading their nuclear. What does that mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, that again, that's big people problem. I don't need. I got a sledgehammer and a gun. I'm going in that door. You. You can worry about nuclear proliferation when I'm not here.

[A]

Now, didn't they also have to do something where they put you guys, like, on loan or something or. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah. If you look at title 10, title 50.

[A]

So what does that mean?

[B]

I think title 50, I might have him backwards. It's been a couple years, but title 50, title 10 is you're working for the government. Title 50 is. I'm sorry, one's military, one's the government. So it's the whole plausible deniability type. So we were working for the agency.

[A]

Because if you had been on the military officially, it could have been viewed as an act of.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, we got a lot more work under Democrats than we did under Republicans.

[A]

Why do you think that is?

[B]

I have a joke about it. Republicans like to put stuff on the. On the horizon, like carriers and tanks. And if you keep doing this, we will do this, but Democrats will stab you in the fucking back. And that's where we come in at 036.

[A]

What was the. I remember. I remember laughing my ass off. You were talking about this with Sean Ryan, but you were like, I would never vote for Hillary Clinton.

[B]

I would take a couple of foxhole if. If if we are. If I was in a foxhole and it wasn't America on the line, but it was her personal power. I will fight. I will fight back to back with Hillary Clinton, and I will win.

[A]

What was it? She called everyone like a pussy because they didn't want to go in.

[B]

She. Yeah, yeah, that's. That was her. Because it was the correspondence dinner. She called him. Put those reporters. Go kill them. Well, she was the reason, too, that we got the. The Captain Phillips rescue because the Obama administration been in office, what, two, three months? April of 2009.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So she said if we got guys down because we were around with them, like, the Navy's pulling them and helicopters are hovering over them and blah, blah, blah. And I guess Hillary's like, dude, we got guys right down to Virginia Beach. I've met him. Like, shoot him. Yeah. Oh, well, shit. Yeah. When we. Hey, we. We kill enough people on that mission, she doesn't have to sacrifice anyone that day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We got time to go into Frazzle Drip. Obviously, that was for entertainment purposes only.

[A]

You think for entertainment purposes only that might ever, hypothetically, actually come out?

[B]

I hope not. I am. Having been around the world and seen some of the most awful imaginable, I've also seen some of the best in some of the worst places. So I have started following up most everything I hear with maybe. When I hear some horrible shit that happened to kids because of migrants, I say, maybe, maybe not. Because someone's got interest in firing you the fuck up. That's why you get your algorithm getting so angry. And it's not. I'm not. And I don't mean to keep picking on Pakistanis or whatever, because they're getting the algorithm towards us and there's someone spinning. If they can keep us hating each other, the fucking bankers are fine.

[A]

I think there's something to that.

[B]

Oh, that's 1,000% what's going on? It's the power and money. You think, why would I mean, even, like, voting, if that mattered, they wouldn't

[A]

let us do it, Right?

[B]

Come on. The banks aren't going anywhere.

[A]

I hate to be cynical, but I'm. I'm with you on that.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, look, I've. I think I bought my not. I'm not bragging on fourth house, like, on mortgage. You're paying the interest the whole time. You're not paying the principal. Why is that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Power.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you don't have a choice. That's why. I mean, I'm even. Here's another rabbit hole The TSA is in on it. The government's in on it. Yeah. You have to throw away your water. Why? Because you got to buy more expensive water right over there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then I gotta. I got a contract with him. That's it. The T. Really? They're trained to find water you could get through with a gun. That's too much shampoo. Really? Because think about. Oh, my five ounces of shampoo. Not the million drones that are gonna bring the plan plans down. Yeah, it's this racket, man. It's all a racket.

[A]

I think there's something to that, man.

[B]

I've been. I'm 50, I'm disgruntled.

[A]

It's that. I. I hear you, but. And also, like, I can tell you been around the world, too.

[B]

Keep spitting. I'm officially an old man.

[A]

Nah, that's all right. You're getting fired up. But like, that's. I, I've. I've thought it for the longest time that like all the. The left and right, they all get dinner at the same steakhouse.

[B]

Oh, I've seen it. My first job out of the Navy was working on Capitol Hill.

[A]

What was that?

[B]

I was. I. Well, I initially thought that, oh, they're just different ideas. They all care about the country. And then you see behind the curtain,

[A]

oh, I'm going to go make a difference.

[B]

No, no. You look like. I was invited to Bohemian Grove three times and I didn't go just because I.

[A]

You didn't go.

[B]

I totally would now.

[A]

I wear a GoPro.

[B]

I didn't know. Oh, dude, I'd love to get in there now. But no, I got. I didn't know anything about. I'm like, yeah, I did be a cool party. I didn't know I'd be potentially a senator.

[A]

Who invited you to Bohemia?

[B]

I was invited by musicians through a Democrat senator, maybe, but it was Seymour, because I was new to it. I was out and there's everyone celebrating. Like, I didn't know anything about that. But then you start to see congressmen and then their staffs, and you realize that their staffs are leading around the congressman because they're visitors too. Unless you're a Nancy Pelosi who's been there the whole time. And then they run the entire show. And then you'll see stuff with the primaries. Eric Swallow was a prime example. What happens in these places is you get the young, good looking freshman women and then you take them to the parties. I've been to these parties. Bohemian Grove would have been one of them. But Then all of a sudden the drinks come out, the drugs come out, the girls come out, the cameras are out. Oh, look at you were doing on camera. We got, oh, hey, you're gonna do some more or we'll release that. Then all of a sudden they got you and then you're doing, then you're you. Can you be an attack dog for us? You do exactly what we say on tv. I don't care how ridiculous it is. Don't get too powerful. That'll swallow. We got. Okay, you're out.

[A]

You ever worry that was going to happen to you?

[B]

I didn't know at the time. But people find dirt on me, I don't need it. Run for office, right? I don't want that getting out. So yeah, I just, I saw behind it. And then you see, it's all power. It's all power and money. There's Nothing created in D.C. the richest counties are right there. There's money, there's your money. Aren't my money. Everyone listening, their money's there and then nothing's created. And we give it to their buddies and they make more missiles, we make more tanks. We give shit away and then we make more. Would you think we leave in Afghanistan because it's too expensive to bring it? Like we give a. About how expensive? No, I got to build that again. Let them have it. Then we can go destroy it. Then we can make more bombs to destroy the next. We leave like we did in Vietnam, like we do everything, it's the same thing. Eisenhower warned about it. We keep doing it because we're burning the books.

[A]

That's interesting though because I agree with you 100. But it's also like you've been on the tip of the spear for I, I guess essentially like you lived your life to be able to go do that and be in the dangerous places and take the bad people out and everything, which is supported by those things. But what you're saying is that they just create a lot of fat where you just need muscle. Am I hearing you right?

[B]

True. Yeah. And it's, it's you, it's the self licking ice cream cone. We got to keep the, you got to keep the ice cream on top too. And, and, and you got to figure they're doing it right. Look at the recruiting, look at the Marine recruiting. I want to be a Marine. Look at the Marines that are out there right now on the mark or on the, on the mew. They, they want to go fight right now. They, I was 28 or whatever, nine, 11. I will invade Canada right now. It was, do this. I was, I remember saying, because we had to swim into Liberia during the invasion Iraq. I remember thinking, I'm going to miss Iraq. Like that's how bad I want to fight. You're not going to miss shit, son.

[A]

What were you doing in Liberia?

[B]

We had a swim in. I think Charles Taylor might have been the president. And he was like, I'm talking straight up cannibalism. Yeah, we, we had to go in just to secure the, secure a lane for marines to come in and take the embassy if we needed. And this is cool because this is old school frogman shit. Like old UDT Underwater Demolition Team. Naval Combat Demolition Units. The naked warriors, men like swimming in with a knife and UDT shorts to catch me swim in. Put bombs on stuff like, like sort of shipping link coming for an invasion in Normandy or, or wherever I. So we had to do that, which is kind of dope. And that's what. So we swam. No, that was a funny brief because we brief everything and some of it we just whatever if, if my time is up, that's just it. And one of the things as a sequel SEAL was I don't care about the dangerous marine life. It's just, it is what it is. Like people would say in SEAL training, aren't you afraid of great whites going to eat you? They're all over. And I said, no, I'm not that lucky. A great white wouldn't just kill me. I would finish a four mile swim, he'd grab me and drag me four miles and let me go. I gotta do it again. That's what a shark would do. But we're getting ready for this, this swim. And we're in the brief and the whoever scientist or weatherman, he goes, her moon rises here and here's dangerous marine life. He goes, now you're off the west coast of Africa so there's every man eating shark you can imagine. Imagine they're right there. And as you're swimming in you, you shouldn't because we're kind of far up the coast. But you might run into saltwater crocodiles, man eaters, 20ft long. They'll fucking kill you. Definitely won't run into hippos, but if you do, they kill more people than anything other than mosquitoes every year. And here's your landing point, it's called black mamba point. And the reason is because of all the black mambas on this point and they're very aggressive and they'll kill you. And then we're like, so then we have a civil war to fight. Okay. So we're the back of an amphibious ship. It's like a big navy ship. The back is a box. It will, it will lower down. And they. It's called flooding the well deck. So all the water comes in, you put the ships out. So we flood the well deck on. I forget what ship it was, but they flood it. There's hammerhead sharks swimming in the ship. Yeah. And they're not big, but still the thought is their parents are whatever. So that's, so that's kind of the funny. So we just, we, we took the boats and we swam in and I

[A]

was on the next to the hammerheads.

[B]

Yeah, whatever. But it's still the idea. Idea that, you know, I don't want to run. But we get on the beach and I ran into that film crew from Fox. That was just funny. And then that picture.

[A]

Oh, that was when that happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah. I was looking for Jennifer Eccleston, and I went up to the guy and I thought. And I was like, where's Jennifer Eccleston? And he goes, I think we were on camera. Okay. That's the story. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But those pictures right when Iraq was breaking out.

[B]

Yeah. We were heading over the Med to invade with the marines to Turkey. This is before Turkey got shut down. Like, we're going. And I was going, I'm a sniper camper. I'm excited. I'm invading. Like, I want this. I'm gonna go swim. Didn't get shoot anybody down there.

[A]

And then when did you end up in Iraq?

[B]

My first appointment to Iraq was 2005.

[A]

What was that like? Because, like, everyone talks about, obviously.

[B]

I thought I, I thought they sent me to the wrong place. I was like, I've been watching this on tv. This place is the most dangerous place in the world. I've got to be in the wrong place. I'm missing it something because I was in danger. Well, it's like if we ran into bad guys, we just got killed them. It's like, are they that bad or are we that good? And then, and then nine out of 10 houses were. Were benign. So you run into people and that's when you start to realize, okay, not everyone here is trying to kill us. They're really not. And then that's when you start to think, if you're a thinker, like, you know what? These people have to deal with Al Qaeda all day, and then they get to deal with us all night, and they can't cross either one. I went into a house in Ramadi, right. I think might have been 2, 7. Which one? It was really, really hot and wrong house. I'm standing in this house on a white carpet, a nice neighborhood, and this woman came out with a daughter my age. And I remember looking down at her white carpet, that's the only ones in the house, and thinking, this is why they hate us. And then she offered me tea. Yeah, it's like, what the is this? So anyway, just you start to see weird like that and you realize most people are not combatants. They're just trying to live, man.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And even with, I mean, I talked about the invasion, a lot of migrants that actually were migrating. We're just trying to get away from Sharia. And then the Sharia comes with them, like a lot of people.

[A]

That's the thing, man.

[B]

Because I mean, living under Sharia is not fun.

[A]

No.

[B]

And you have to say you want it because they'll kill you. It's kind of a double entendre there for sure.

[A]

But that's the thing. It's like you're kind of stuck between a and a fart because you have to stop bad guys from doing stuff. But you have, like you said, the 90, whatever percent of people that don't want that or aren't around that, but you're in their house with the gun.

[B]

Well, even with the, even with the suny, Al Qaeda is Sunnis, ISIS is Sunnis. And so they would stay in the Sunni towns, like they'd come in, whatever, but then they would force their way in. So you've got good guy. Well, civilians and then Al Qaeda. And so we have to figure out now how to figure out because they'll hide their guns outside. Now I gotta, I'm go in now. I got a room full of people. I got, I know there's bad guys. How do I figure that out? You know what I figured out? Use the kids.

[A]

How.

[B]

So that sounded bad, but talk to the kids. Find the oldest male. Male who's not a fighting age. And you've, I mean, you've already interrogated these guys. You're not getting, I mean, find them in a lie if you can, but they're gonna lie to you anyway because you're in the house. So you find one of the boys and you ask him something easy, but any answers? Because I gotta always put the interpreter behind him. And then he's talking to me, blah, blah, and you say anything and you're like, finally, finally the man of the house. Come here, man. And so you build him up a little bit and dust him off. It's good to talk to you, man. What. What. What's going on? He's like, well, there's these three guys here that I don't know and I don't. Whatever. Oh, well, show them to us. Right here. This is easy. Like, put him over here. It's dark as hell. Put a screen up there. Shine a light in his face. There's one. That's not one. There's two and there's three. There's all kind of guys.

[A]

Easy.

[B]

Yeah, you tell him he's the man of the house and he loves that.

[A]

Cuff him and go.

[B]

And he will. Yeah, cuff these guys. Leave them. They're fine. And then he'll. Then he'll spread the word.

[A]

How many times were you in Iraq?

[B]

3.05,06,07.07 was the best one.

[A]

Why do you say it was the best?

[B]

Because we had a thing called the awakening. And that's. Was it the Awakening. The Sunnis realized if we kill the Sunnis, their houses will be safe, so they started turning them in. And then Stan McChrystal was in charge of JSOC, so he sent us on kill missions every night. Kill missions. We got to a point in the summer of 07 where if we only killed 11 people, we're like, this is a waste of our time. That's in houses. Like, it was intense. We did a mission where there was a place north of Baghdad called Himbus, and it was a peninsula. So this is 07. No one had been in there since 03 because there's like 19 IED makers, improvised explosives by roadside bombs. And so there's one road, you can't drive it. They're going to blow you up. You cannot fast rope because it's so small. They're going to shoot you down. And you can't carpet bomb them because it's so small. And you don't want to kill these people that don't want to be involved. So they came to us with this plan at Seal Team 6, and they said, here's the problem. And so we all looked at it and we've been beaten to death with water. We. I've seen seals walk a mile out of the way to not get their feet wet. And so we're looking at it. We're all thinking the same thing. Well, it's going to suck, but we can swim. We can swim in there and get this guy. So we did. 17 seals, two dogs, very important. Two Malinois went with us. So we did. It's not even a swim. It's like a swampy, shitty rats in the grape. But we get there, and then this gunfight starts. We end up taking 10 houses. We killed all 19 dudes. Didn't hurt one of us, didn't hurt one woman or child. And then we swam out before the sun came up. Those. So. But this. Like, that gets better. Better. So the locals wake up the next day. We keep assets above them to watch because they've got one period.

[A]

Drones.

[B]

Yeah. So we'll keep something up there to watch because they've got 24 hours or whatever, one cycle of sunlight to bury them. So whoever comes to bury the bad guys, those are probably bad guys following them. So we're watching this, and the locals, you can see them coming out of their houses, and they're getting terrorized by these alcoholic. They don't like them either, but they realize all these dudes, these bullies, are all dead. Dead. So they had this block party, and the word that we got was, yeah, they're dancing in the streets and drinking juice was the actual thing. So this reporter from Baghdad came up to see what happened. Like, this is big news. He walked through the entire house and talked to the women that survived. And all he asked him was, who came last night? And the headline in the newspaper in Baghdad said they were ninjas. And they came with lions. Lions.

[A]

Lions, yeah.

[B]

Big dogs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Jesus Christ was hot.

[A]

Yeah. So you guys obviously, like, you're insanely talented, and you're going in there and things feel easy for you and everything, but, like, when you're looking at the lay of the land by 07 in Iraq, were at that point, were you having any thoughts of, like, damn, this is.

[B]

No, I think we're winning. We're. We're killing.

[A]

You still thought you were.

[B]

We're winning this. Yeah, we are, because we got. We're pushing Al Qaeda out, and they're dealing with the pockets of the Shiite in. In Satisfaction, Powder City. So, I mean, that's heavy fighting in both spots, but we are doing it. But like anything else, we get rules and politicians involved in lawyers, and you're gonna lose. That's just it. They. They.

[A]

When do you think that happened?

[B]

I remember a gunfight in Afghanistan, shooting it out with guys in a cave. And then they said, okay, we call for hellfires. And they said, all right, We. We're not saying there are women and children in the cave. We're just saying we can't prove they're not. And we're like, we've been in a gunfight with these guys now, and you want us to retreat? Retreat. Okay. We lost.

[A]

What year is that?

[B]

Oh, that must have been 0809. Oh, no. Oh, wait, we're still getting. No. Yeah. Oh, nine, man. Because once. I mean, when there's speed limits on bases, I got. This is actually a funny story. I went over. We would go over to war zones to reenlist because you can get tax free bonuses. So we would say, I got to go augment gold team. So I'd go over there and like, you get in a free gunfight in Canada, but you also got to reenlist, get like 75 grand. Pretty sweet. Especially when you're. You're still. You're still Navy child. Like, you can't afford a lot of stuff. But we went over there one night, we got a really, really good gunfight in Kandahar. Actually, this was kind of funny because it's different on bases too, because not everybody on a base, not everyone that goes to Afghanistan fights. And that's a. That's a funny dynamic too, because, well, we call them fobbits. They don't get off the fob. The Ford operating base. And they. But they buy all the. From the px, all the magazines, all the candy. So the guys that fight don't get. So we make fun of the fobus. So we're getting. We're back in this chow tent in Kandahar and we just got a bloodbath and we're eating and we started getting rocketed. So rockets are landing on the base and all these fobits that are in their clean uniforms all jump under the picnic tables. And there's these rangers over here that are just covered in. And they just were fighting with us. And. And one dude looks down at one of the army. He's army guy, and he's an army guy, goes, hey, bro, this place is surrounded by hescos. And if one of these rockets comes through there, this. This picnic table is not doing. So just sit up like a man and enjoy yourselves. So, but anyway, so then I fly up to Bagram, I'm taking a bird back to the States, another chow run. So I'm gonna go over to the chow by myself. I got a gun I got on my ship. But I'm going over to the chow hall to eat before I get on to C17. And this dude stops me, military police, and goes, hey, where's your reflective belt? Belt? I was in a gunfight that morning, and I said, my Reflective belt. Like, do you want me to get shot or you want me to hide? Because I. And I go, I don't have one. Where do I get one? Well, you can get one at the PX for $3. So I'm having fun with this kid and I go, I can get with the PX for $3. He goes, yeah. And I go, here I am thinking safety's free, but it's not. It's $3, it's PX. And so he's like, I. And he writes me a ticket and I wrote you a ticket. He wrote me a ticket in Afghanistan. And I said, okay, where do I pay this ticket? He goes, well, you don't. You just get it. And I go, so I get a free ticket for not wearing a reflective belt? And he goes, yeah. And I go, is it a free ticket for littering? And he's looking at me and I go, when you call home to your mom, you lie, right? Like you don't say, this is what you do in the war on terror. Like you lie good. And then so that's when I realized that we're losing this fight war.

[A]

That red tape comes in like that,

[B]

a speed limit and a reflective belt as I'm carrying a gun and camouflage.

[A]

What's interesting though, I've said this a bunch before. Just over the years, all the different guys that have come in, be it Delta guys, Army Rangers, Navy seals. I've gotten some of the craziest gunfight stories ever from like 08 to 2014. Afghanistan. Oh, people just talking about what was

[B]

what they did is a lot of those dudes, a lot of the Delta guys in the 75th Ranger Regiment is as dumb as this sounds. They wouldn't let us fight the Taliban. We were going after high value targets, Al Qaeda and they just started going to Pakistan. A guy by the name of Scott Moore was a captain at Seal Team 6. He was a commanding officer and he, he somehow finagled it that we could take the gloves off and start fighting the Taliban. And that was one of those, be careful what you wish for because we're slaughtering in. It's not slaughtering, it's bad. But we're beating the out of Al Qaeda and Iraq. It's horrible. Then we start getting gunfights in the mountains with Taliban. These have been fighting their whole lives and they are fast and they can move and they will fight. But they're also the guys like with Marcus with posture and Wally, where if you ask them for help, they'll give it to You. So that's a way different dynamic. But make sure they're posturing, not Chechen. That's the bad day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And those Dagestanis, they wrestle bears. We've seen that in the U.S. oh yeah.

[A]

No, they don't fuck around.

[B]

No. Hey, respect.

[A]

Yeah. Now you actually, because you alluded to that earlier. So you were on the team that came in and rescued lone survivor Marcus.

[B]

Yeah, I was actually in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, running one of. Not running, sorry, at an outstation. And an outstation in this case was you just find something and you buy it and then you hire locals. Like guys before me bought a motel and then they hired locals to build the fences and then they hired locals to plumb do the plumbing and then to electricity and then you hire security. And that's how you win hearts and minds. It's not cooking tea. Like I'm stimulating the economy and like that. So I was at that house station and we're building the airfield at, at Jalalabad, which is a huge JBAD thing now. And that's actually where another part where I thought this isn't going the right direction. We're in Jalalabad, Afghanistan. That that was the capital for the Taliban. Taliban. And we're in this outstation. The airfield's not built yet. That's when they announced, hey, we're going to surge again. This is the Obama administration, I think was right around then, oh, 8, oh 9. So whatever. And I remember on the ground now, we're on the ground living in Jalalabad like we're buying shawarmas and rugs and shit. And we know the locals, this economy is good. We're protecting the families that like, you know, this is good. You're going to surge. What you're going to build, you're going to build a wall around the airfield and then no one gets to leave the airfield. And with these new now, instead of me driving on a motorbike, you're going to have a scared 20 year old private driving an MRAP running over kids. You're going to go to the bazaar, you're going to let five vendors on the base to sell rugs. They're going to jack the price up 500%. They're millionaires, they're poor. What the do you think is going to happen? Why would you search? And you know, they did. But, but this is before that. I went back to. I heard some guys from Seal Team 10 had just inserted snipers into one of the valleys near the Pesh. And so I went to. I drove my motorbike out there, and I ran into Dan Healey and Jeff Taylor and a bunch of guys that were there. And I was just with me said, yeah, we inserted four snipers, and they're going to find a mod shot. And once they give us the word, we're going to fly in. I'm like, that's dope. I want to get on it. I called Bagram to Seal Team 6, my first deployment of Seal Team 6. And I told him. I was like, I want to get on this mission. They said, no one from Seal Team 6 is getting on that helicopter because there's missiles in the valley. They're going to shoot it down. So we're bull. I was bullshitting with Dan Healey about Sam Adams. I went to sniper school with him, and we. I knew he was from New England. He loves Sam Adam and then whatever. Yeah, we'll grab one. I got another month or two here. So you're going home after this one. See you. And then they took off, and they. I was one of the last guys to see them alive. They got shot down. So we're back at the airfield. So turbine three three was shot down. Turbine three four, I don't know what happened, but these are TF 160s pilots. They landed in the wrong place. When they came back after three, three was shot down, killing all 16 guys on board. So they were. So the guys from there had to run back.

[A]

Back.

[B]

I'm at jban. I'm watching guys walk in. I'm like, okay, okay, this world's a better place. You're still here. What the happened? And they said these plumes came out and turned and they hit. They missed us, Hit them. And so then we have to go, okay. There's a crash that we don't know if. We don't know if there's survivors. So we got to go. And we get word that, well, they're not going to fly you. They're getting shot down. So figure it out. So we have to steal cars. So I'm like, okay, there's a tent full of rangers. This is. So this is how awesome rangers are. We went in this tent, me and another dude from six. Like, hey, here's the situation. I'm gonna need five. Five guys, okay? And they all got out of their racks, every single ranger. And they said, normally it takes five minutes to get ready. We'll be outside in three. All these rangers came out like, go find cars. Go find fucking donkeys. Go find water, whatever. And we had this trail and we met the guys from Abed, the CAA guys there, and we drove the cars as far as we could and started walking. And then we get to 10,000ft, and we're just up there, and we get word that Axelson and Latrell are still alive. Trying to find Murphy and Dietz. We had some guys get up to the crash site and we went. We had to call A10s in on some dudes. And it just got weird. One of the weirdest stories up there. I didn't see it, but Lou Langless was one of the Red Team guys. He made it to the crash site and he sees the bodies, and. And I guess he said, I'm gonna go down to that village and just like, try to.

[A]

To.

[B]

And he's walking away. And I guess he turned around and said, I just don't want to die like that. And then lou was on extortion 17. He died just like that on August 6, 2011. So just the way it all, you know, it all repeats.

[A]

And that's.

[B]

That's the. That. That. That comes back to that. My rule. Don't die because you got bored. Ask the families, who were they going after that night? Big deal at the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No one knows. No one cares.

[A]

How many guys did you go up there with again?

[B]

Where at?

[A]

To go find him.

[B]

Bin Laden.

[A]

No, no, no. Not Bin Laden.

[B]

They shut. They shut the country down.

[A]

They shut the country.

[B]

Everybody went. We went first with. We had a hundred dudes climbing because we were just climbing. Like, everyone that thinks they can fight go up there. Like, we had donkeys carrying our water. I watched donkeys jump off of cliffs. The hike was so bad. Just jump, like, that's it. The one donkey didn't pick a cliff big or tall enough to kill him, but he picked a cliff that was tall enough to make him realize once he landed, that was a bad idea. You could hear them? Yeah. And like, they. They finally flew some birds in. They tried to throw us water out of the bird. They threw that down a cliff. It's like. And then we get up, and then other guys from Red Squadron flew into the crash sites. Like, okay. But then we turn around, then we call in a 10s on these other guys. We get back down to the thing. We're awake for three days, two days. And then the villager came in with a note from Marcus. So we got a note, and it's like, okay, then this is the weird CIA dynamic, because the CIA never wants to lose a sword. They would rather keep a source than Save an American. Swear to God, I don't want to lose my source, man. It's like. So this guy's here with this. Like, he's walking us to this place and they're trying to talk us out of it. And here's where you realize it's a weird place too. It's like, okay, I'm gonna have him show me which house Marcus is in, not realizing we're about to show this man who doesn't know what numbers are, an iPad. So forget addition. Welcome. Welcome to Apple. So we might as well have shown him the face of Muhammad, because this dude. So it's like, now we're gonna walk him in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're like, well, he didn't cross the tees on the trail. It's like, he got a social right. That's him. So then we're gonna bring this like, one of the ranger. I think a major got kicked out of the country for this because we badmouth. Yeah. So we walk up with this dude and we're just gonna pretend he's a prisoner, but he's gonna tell us. So we go drive back in this. Feel like if you're there by yourself, they're gonna cut your head off. And we're dangerous. Most dangerous place in the world. Climb up the mountain. We're still been awake and we're getting up on top. We get word he's down in this village. So. And I remember we're. We're having these. We're trying to talk each other like hell week, trying to talk each other into going. And one of my guys said, okay, I don't think I can go anymore. And I said, yeah, that's cool. We'll just tell Marcus's mom, Mrs. Luttrell, that we were this close and we couldn't get him because you got fucking tired. And he's like, yeah, you're right. And I said, tell me that exact same thing, because I don't think I can fucking go anywhere. And then the ranger swooped in, they grabbed him, they took off, they got him. So now we're looking at this valley. We're up on a mountain. But that's when you start to realize we gotta get the out of here now. And then I remember looking at my guys and I said, this is why training is so hard. Because if you wanted to quit right now, where the you gonna go? You're just here now. So let's try to get out of here alive. That we don't want to be the next one.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then In Afghanistan, you're, I mean you're fighting the geography as much as you're fighting.

[B]

It's the graveyard of empires. It's the western Himalayas. No one has gone in there and conquered it. You won't. It's just you. I mean, we've proven the technology doesn't matter. You got to get on the ground with the sandals and fighting with rocks. Do you want to, do you have a stomach for that?

[A]

And you had said before right before this happened, that's when you had moved over to Dev crew, Is that right?

[B]

I moved over, yeah. I was at, I, I went, I applied right after 9, 11. I got into the 2000, 2004 selection course.

[A]

How does that work?

[B]

That's a tough process. You need to get approved by the conventional teams are groups of Navy SEALs divided by number. And the odd numbers are In San Diego, 1, 3, 5, 7. Even numbers in Virginia, 2, 4, 8, 10. You need to get approved by them usually after five years as an active SEAL combat. And then you apply. And the way you apply is like you send in a resume and the very basic way to get turned down is they hand your picture to the guys that are there and they just, if they don't like you, you're stuck, you're out. It's that simple. I've seen guys. Nope, done. So you do that. Then they come to your team and they interview you. Then they have you do a pretty considerable test, a PT test. So it's a good run. It's a, it's a three mile run at a 7:30 pace, which guys fail. It's like 10 pull ups with 45 pound weight and then your body weight 10 times bench press and shit like that. It's a legit workout. And then they interview you. And then the interview is tough because you're like, this is the start of the war. So these are no shit hard fucking master chiefs. These are enlisted dudes. And then the one officers checking your service record, make sure your ribbons all match. And then they send in psychiatrists. That was hilarious. The first three is three weeks. The first screening process is three weeks to see if you qualify for the selection course. So the like the two and a half weeks is all getting in your head. It took me a day and a half to finish a 5000 question multiple choice test with all based on behavior. So one is never, I never feel like that. And there's two and three is like seldom. And five is always. That's just it. And then the questions come up and they're in no order. And they're not questions. But it's like the, the example I give is, you sit down, you're excited. Number one, you love roses. Like, yeah, always. That's easy. Everyone loves roses. Number two, you want to decapitate kittens. You're like, well, shit, that went sideways. And like looking at your buddy like, do we do something sell them cats? I don't know. I. So it took me a day and a half and I asked, I had the same psychiatrist for 10 years. And I, this is when I met her or whatever. I just got to meet her. And I said, what's the point of this test? And she goes, oh, we're not trying to figure out if you're crazy. We're trying to figure out which flavor it is. And then we're going to place you and then that do that test again, that hard physical test. And at that point, if they like you, they invite you to the nine month selection course. So if you get, you get. We. It was one one a year. It got to a point for two weeks year because we were rotating so fast. But then that process is. It's not like SEAL training where you can drown because guys have proven they will. So we're trying to find people who can make decisions and stress. So we make drills based on CQB, but they're long, exhausting drills with all your. At 105 degrees Fahrenheit in Mississippi with loud music playing. All the drills in the killhouse are designed for you to fail. You don't know that. That. And then they punish you for failing such an easy task. So they beat your ass for 20 minutes. As soon as you're done getting beat, you're right back to number one man. You're running it again. You fail again. Why are you doing that? Because they want to see how you handle it. You were going to fail that we punish you for failing. And the test was, can you get over it?

[A]

How many guys, like 50% don't make it 50%.

[B]

Half the guys that have been Navy SEALs for five years in combat don't make it through. It's intense. And then the ones who do become part of a tier one, nine months. Nine months. And it's like, it's so bizarre. Like, I remember having it a, a day of house runs. Cqb so good. I am so good at this. I got it to three runs later. They had me carrying a broom telling me, I'm so unsafe. You don't belong here. You don't belong to have a Gun. Run it with the broom. We'll see if we'll keep you. And then you just stay there. And then you graduate. Then you go to assault team.

[A]

And what. What year did you end up doing the nine months? 04.

[B]

Yeah. And then. Then you get to the squadron where the guys are, and you think you're good after Seal Team 6 selection. I got this. I'm fast. You get there, they're gone. We're what, the three. Five guys from Select Green team. Like, where the. Is follow them. And then you. Then you. That's when you start to learn dudes that, like, you're inventing tactics. You're just. You're coming up with, what. What is this? Why are we screwing this up? We come up with tactics. We're inventing. Okay. They. Al Qaeda did this that time. How. How do we. We. They were hitting us from the 5% coming into a room because they know you got to enter. So how. How we get 10 out of a plane to skydive at the same time? Why aren't we getting 10 in that room? Let's work on it like that. And then you're just running stuff. We were dirty. I remember talking to dad. Dirty Corbett. Fearless. Absolutely fearless. We were fearless. We were working on what we can jump because we thought the bin Laden raid would be a skydive. Hey, ho. High opening. So we're like, okay, we got to figure out a painter's pole because we can attach a ladder to that with. With a shepherd's hook.

[A]

Hook.

[B]

We might need this thing or whatever. These long and anything, like big guns or. If you're skydiving, you're. You got lines coming out. If they wrap, that's a horseshoe malfunction, and you're probably gonna die. So we're with. And I had. I. I needed someone to do what we call the wall locker jump. Everything we got. I need someone to jump in. Dirty's like, I'll do it. And I remember we had two. I was one of the jump masters. Another one of the jump masters. I'm the lead jumper. Jump master. Another jump master. Like tandem masters. We do this, and we're just looking for his leg straps to make sure they're connected here. And I'm like, dirty. I can't promise you anything. You're connected, and your parachute's packed well, and you got a reserve. When we're jumping at 3am I'm. I'm going out before you, so I won't see you. I hope to see you on the. I hope to See you on the ground standing up. Because the nice thing about skydiving is no matter how bad it goes, you're gonna land.

[A]

That is right. You just might not.

[B]

Just a matter of, you know, again, positive attitude. Well, even with that, I explained to people the cool thing about hey ho. Is like, the way that we do it because you're jumping, like, trying to do the most basic. Because when the EMP hits, can you start a fire? Do you know where north is? Can you find true north on a flat earth? Another one that's a whole. So I just thought I'd throw that in at you because it seems like true north is always in the middle.

[A]

I'm not touching it.

[B]

I'm not either. I get yelled at all the time, so. But as soon as you're. As a lead jumper for a hey ho stack, this is so cool, because we've only. We're going to a spot 11, 12, 13 miles away. We've only seen on a map. So you get out there just with your. And a glide ratio is altitude, distance, speed, heading, bearing, course. Calculate that. Can we make it? And then you decide for everyone. Nope, can't make it. So then as a lead jumper, if you're excited, which I am, I got to find an alternate drop zone. Let's do it. Do this.

[A]

Yeah, that's not for me.

[B]

Yeah, we. We.

[A]

One's not for me.

[B]

We had do like, we're inventing tactics. Where do you put your night vision? Because we're like. Because we had one dude's night vision because we were wearing them, but then up. And this is before we put. This is before we put the. The small. That's how you learn. This is how you develop tactics. He jumped out. Pow. No night vision. And he's. And we're landing on a cliff like Richard Nixon's old Runway going up a cliff in Arizona. Like, he used to land there in a shitty place plane. And so we land, and we had to have one of our other lead jumpers. I think Jimmy Hatch did it. He. He had to talk him in. He's like, you got to trust me. All right, here's your altitude. Turn left. Turn left. Turn left. Okay, one more time. Turn left. Turn left. Oh, fly. Flare, flare, flare, flare. And he lived. It's like, okay, from now on, we're gonna figure out a way to put bungees on these, probably jump them down and spread. And we're also carrying extra night vision.

[A]

That's how we learn.

[B]

Yeah, he had to do that on a cliff in the Dark. And you got to figure out, figure that parachute is not just a safe. This is going 20 miles an hour forward. If you have a 15 mile an hour wind behind you, you're landing on a cliff at 35 miles an hour. And those rocks are. Not to get all technical, but those rocks are unforgiving.

[A]

Yeah, no, you're breaking some bones doing that.

[B]

Breaking your attitude.

[A]

Yeah, doing something. How much did you feel like once you got through the nine month training for Dev Crew and then got in there and you know, started working on up with those guys? How much did you feel like your approach shift where it's like, well, this is, this is different than what I used to. Even though I was already a seal, I already saw a lot of combat, I was already doing my thing like this. These guys, this just operates differently, I'm thinking differently.

[B]

Just the assets, the mindset was way different. The, there was no doubt about whether or not we can do it.

[A]

It's how, right?

[B]

How are we going to figure this out? And then, and then it's, it's the whole. If there's an issue like right now, problem solving and someone sees the way you move to solve it, they're just going to come here, help you with it. Like I, oh, I got, I have input for this, like really sharp dudes. And, and with that comes a sense of humor too. I think the smarter the people, the funnier they are. That was one of the things I was never worried about, about the physical stuff or getting in because of the tactics. When I checked into SEAL Team 2 the first time, one of the first guys I met was Don Shipley and he's a pretty famous, That's a funny motherfucker. He came in. You must be the new guys. Yeah, Senior Chief. Cool. You want to go to the Chiefs club, get a beer? Yes, I do. And then hearing guys banter was like, oh, these dudes are good. And then you get to SEAL Team six. I thought it was pretty funny. And I, and I'm flying the wall there, listening. I'm like, I gotta step my game up again. These guys are fine. But then with that comes morale. And with the morale, it's the guy down Bin Laden's hallway. I know that dude. Like that's, that, that's what, that's the whole, it's, it's cool to say, never leave a man behind, but I know his kids man like that, so. And his favorite shitty joke, I know what Berry drinks right before he dies. Like I know that these guys. So it's A. It's a. It's a. That. That's why I love the human element of everything. Because there's a human element with both sides. Both sides. Because figure this. Nobody thinks they're the bad guy.

[A]

Like, puts themselves in his shoes, kind of.

[B]

They're righteous. They're freedom fighters. No one thinks they're the. Like, I'm like. Even serial killers are psychopaths, so they think they're doing something their own enjoyment is. Is the right thing. No one's out there. Yeah. So it's.

[A]

Do you ever, like. Do you ever wonder if some of the bad guys that. Not necessarily Al Qaeda, but some of the bad guys you may have been sent in to go get. There was a reason they were that way?

[B]

Meaning, like, why they're fighting us?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah. They're fighting us because we're there. Iraq really kicked off because it's so much easier to go fight Americans in Iraq than the mountains. So they started showing up from everywhere. Like, Abu Musab al Zarqa was from Jordan, and he cut off Nick Burke's head personally. Like, he was a dude that bin Laden actually started emailing like, hey, homie, you need to pipe it down a little.

[A]

He was the godfather of isis.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, a lot of dudes are fighting just because we're there. Nothing else to do. Seriously. Afghanistan. That's just what they do. And then, I mean, you got to figure, too, if you're gonna. If you're gonna be an honest person, it doesn't matter your intentions. You spend enough time in someone else's house, you're in. You're an occupier.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And they. I mean, there's. I mean, even when I was saying, like, that, I see why they don't like us. Yeah. I mean, you're running over my kids with your foreign vehicles. I'm pissed at you. I'm gonna fight you. I'm gonna fight you. Come here. I'm fine. That's. That's what they. There's national pride everywhere.

[A]

What was it like for you to see 20 years after Afghanistan not just fall the way it did, but effectively, that typical politics.

[B]

Typical promise campaign. Promise, I will end the war in Afghanistan. And doesn't matter how as long as I promise it, and I do. That's just.

[A]

Politicians don't say anything about victory.

[B]

Oh, we forgot to win a long time. We don't even teach winning anymore. We don't teach it in the academies that our officers don't know how to win. There's no End.

[A]

How do you figure that?

[B]

They just. There's no competition to win. What is winning? I think Pat knew how to win. And then. Oh, of course, he said, you know, we should have been fighting the Russians. And then he died. He died getting a tooth pulled.

[A]

They didn't like that.

[B]

Deep State doesn't like that. They got central banks around that.

[A]

Yeah, they didn't like that. But you don't think they teach winning at West Point or any of these places?

[B]

No, they're still teaching which bathroom to use. Oh, the academies are bad. Yeah.

[A]

How does that get fit?

[B]

I mean, they've got their guys, they have their studs like you. You don't get into the academy either, any of them, without being stud. Academically, physically, all that stuff. Men and women, I think they can be winners. Well. Oh, they can. But the problem is the hierarchy, because at some point, point, again, power people need to get promoted. In order to get promoted. I gotta do the. That the commander's intent says we need to have command climate. Oh, someone. Someone's worried about their ass getting started, so we better talk about sexual harassment. And then it gets into worse and worse and worse. And did you. Did like. I mean, even, like, did you get your cavity filled? Because you can't go to Afghanistan. What the.

[A]

Right. Red tape everywhere.

[B]

Red tape everywhere. Rules of engagement. Rules, rules, rules.

[A]

Yeah, but a guy like Admiral McRaven

[B]

was clearly like, well, I mean, you know, he's got his critics, but he was just the man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he. Well, Admiral McRaven looks like a SEAL. Like, he's. He looks and sounds like an ABC. That's what I want to look and sound like that. Like when I get fired about the stories, like, imagine how afraid Al Qaeda must have been. They couldn't hear us. We got 23 Bill McRavens running through the house, coming to get you.

[A]

Good luck.

[B]

Yeah, you're gonna lose.

[A]

That's a tough day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's like talking with you, like, you're. Like I was saying earlier, you're almost gamified approach to everything. Like, oh, this is the next thing I can go get. This. This is exciting and all and all that. It all started, though, with you going in and being recruited by the wrong place.

[B]

Seriously.

[A]

And yet, you know, well, that's, that's.

[B]

The people need to realize that in life. When I talk to someone who says, I like, the one that pisses off veterans is, well, I was going to join, but I did, blah, blah, blah, and they get pissed. I don't get pissed. At that the guy will say, well I, I tried seals, but I, I quit, blah blah. I'm like, well that worked out really well for you then.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Well, do you have kids? Yeah. Well, you wouldn't have them if you, you made it. So that's a. You're here today with them. So it's a good day. Like, well, I'll say to so my, I have college age kids and they'll say something about a term paper or we're studying for finals and today's a shitty day or I'm hungover, blah blah. I'm like, huh, yeah. Hey, here's something to think about talking to my daughters. If a 23 year old dude in the Marine Corps wasn't stationed in Butte, Montana as a recruiter in 1995 and he wasn't at Arby's at 11:30 a Wednesday, you wouldn't be alive. How was that term paper? Doesn't matter. Yeah, 100% like that's the drinking thing. This tattoo on 7, 1925 probably looked really stupid, but on 7, 1835, that's pretty badass. Yeah, that's the butterfly. You want to make a change in life. Your 2% now in 10 years is going to be pretty dope.

[A]

Had you thought about though at all before you walked in that office? The idea of like, like taking a life of anyone?

[B]

No, because there's not going to be a war. It's over. The closest we came was Blackhawk down 93.

[A]

So you thought you were just going to base live it?

[B]

I thought chicks would dig it. Yeah, literally. I got dumped by a chick. I'm going to be a Marine chick now.

[A]

When did that change?

[B]

Well, I joined the Navy, so now I got to be gay. No, it was, that's my entire career was, okay, it is the Navy. I just signed to be a seal. I'm not going to make it, but I get to go to Coronado, I get to live on barracks on that beach. This is before we started getting all the Tijuana in the water. So it's going to be awesome. I'm going to get assigned to a ship after they kick me out because I'm not quitting. And then I'll have four years worth of sea stories. I'll go sea stories. I'll go back to Butte, Montana and I'll sit at Maloney's Pub and I'll drink beer and I'll tell sea stories. That's it. I get to SEAL training and I remember it being so hard. I don't Have, I do have a past. I don't have a future future. I'm just going to be in hell. And then on Monday, like, hey, go to medical, get your record and your service record because you're getting assigned to SEAL Team 2. It's like, what the fuck does that mean? You made it through no SEAL training. Doesn't. Yes it does. So you drive out there, Fort Benning, Georgia, work with the army, learn how to jump, get to SEAL Team 2, finish this, this flight. Deployment, four years up, done. Single. I do not want to go back to Butte, Montana. I love these guys. I will reenlist. So I reenlist. I meet guys like Jocko.

[A]

You're also in the Special Forces. Like you don't need a war. No, there's missions you have, where you got to go places.

[B]

What I miss about that is the skydiving trips to Tucson. You're going to live in a Marriott on the fucking campus at the University of Arizona. You're going to skydive all day. And then your buddy Nelson Miller owns the fucking Trident on Speedway. I'm going to go there all night and then I'm going to do that every day. I miss that shit. But I mean, even the thing with the reenlistment, I reenlisted just to stay with the guys at 9 11. I can't leave reenlist list. I went to SEAL Team six on a whim. I was going to get out of that. I was close because I fought a little bit. Not enough. I went to a leadership course on Oceana Annex, Dam Neck, where Seal Team 6 is. Went to a course in my uniform. Went to lunch at the Navy Exchange because you know, everyday, low prices, Navy Exchange, your family store. And there's a gotta, gotta plug Navy change. I go in there, there's a dude in of front, flip flops, cut off, cami pants and like a beard and he sees my trident and he's I me. And I'm like, that's the SEAL Team Six guy. Him. I'm gonna find out what that's all about. So I went SEAL Team six because of him. Basically I was on the fence whether or not I'm gonna try out. And I did.

[A]

But again you had seen, you had seen combat a little bit.

[B]

Not as, not as much, not a

[A]

ton, but a little bit. Enough to know bullets, but it's still

[B]

like, I want to see my family again. So I might get out. But then I saw the six guy. I'm like, okay, I'm definitely going there.

[A]

So know but there had. That's what I'm saying. Like, it's an interesting way you put it. You have a past, but you don't have a future when you're in buds. But then you get out there, like, go to SEAL team.

[B]

Well, what does that mean? No, I'm. I. You. I make my bed every morning, I brush my teeth. I get to the workout on time. That's what I do. What do you mean? I got it. What the Is a seal. You've been teaching me nothing. I've been beat.

[A]

But now you have to think about both sides of the equation at some point there, right? Where it's like, anywhere I could go, I could die. And anywhere I go, I may have to take a life.

[B]

Well, I mean, we got guys that went to Arizona for one of them skydivers. Chips never came back.

[A]

Even that training. But, like, thinking about the stuff, that's higher percentage possibility. Like, did you ever, like, slow down for a second and be like, wow?

[B]

Combat is a lot like. The mindset of combat is a lot like skydiving. It's a lot like shark diving. I like to dive without cages with apex predators. Oh, that's the. The. It's great stress relief. It's. The scary part is from the bench to the door. So right before I skydive, that's the part you're like, all right, all right. Then you jump. It's over. It's on. When you get in the water with the tiger sharks or the great whites, it's just on. And when you get to combat, it's just on. And then when you get to combat that you realize, I'm actually really good at this, and they're not. And I can see at night and they can't. I like this. I'm good at this. My friends are here. Like, one of the rules is if. If you have to go somewhere, bring a gun and bring a friend with a gun, you're gonna. Yeah, it's the whole. I came up with when I was using an M4, which is right before we started using the 416s from H& K, I had a thing with. I stopped carrying an escape and evasion kit, like, which is your extra whatever, blah, blah, blah, signal device. Right. I stopped carrying it because that's a waste of my weight. I have the M4 charge card. And they would say, what is an M4 charge card? It's like. It's a. It's simple. You have a car, I have a gun. I now have a car and a Gun. You can charge anything with this thing. So yeah, just like that. You adapt.

[A]

Yeah. And then you find yourself in situations like the one in Pakistan where it's like five guys on however many are in the high. Are in the high ground like that, you know.

[B]

Oh yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And you're just joking your way through it and then suddenly.

[B]

Well you get your oh moments where like this is. I mean don't get me wrong, I did take everything very serious. And if I could, if I could have a mission go perfectly, it wouldn't be as funny. So I would be serious. But when shit goes sided it's like I think someone even asked on. On the mission, like did you do what happened the helicopter crash? You do that on purpose? No, idiot. He's with. You know, so the sense of humor is there, but if it's. If a mission's going perfect. There's your problem though. So now I got to be really serious because that's the problem. I'm walking into an ambush. Because you do need to realize in combat anything you do can get you killed. Including nothing. Like there were dudes that died like survive combat and then are leaving a on base to get hit with a rocket. And then your time up.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And again too. That's. There's a reality of my adminship better be in order. Do I have my will the correct way? Because guys were with that guys were like there was a dude said yeah, I want this guy singing Tiny dancer acapella, not Acapulco at my funeral. Like I want him singing. But then guys start dying. It's like all right, strike that. I need to get more life insurance because that he didn't come home, his kids are okay. And then you, you know, you get all your squared away and then it is a. Just make sure your shit's in order because the, the word. The worst conversation I hated was did you know? It's like did you know Scott Neal? It's like what the do you mean did I know? Did you know Mike Coke? Yeah. What happened? Yeah, getting the. I. I was actually after the bin Laden raid in. I was. I was the liaison for JSOC in Fort Bragg. So after the bin Laden I was down there in August and I was. Was. We were. We went out one night and I went back to the hotel and I'm getting ready to go to bed. They said helicopter was just shot down in Afghanistan. A lot of people on board. Like, oh man. So I drive in a JSOC and I just type a. A message. What Just happened to my guys over in Afghanistan, I got a response immediately with a list of names. 31. Yeah, 31 names.

[A]

31.

[B]

31. I knew 17 of them.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And so you get.

[A]

You process something.

[B]

Like, you don't. That's. You don't. That we finished bin Laden, we're on a high, and now we lose all and we lose the best guys.

[A]

17.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That you knew.

[B]

Yeah. Robert James Reeves was on there. Robert. I'm Robert James o'. Neill. He's Robert James Reeves. I just named my first son after him. I named him Reeves. So he's a Robert. He's Reeves Thomas. But I named after Robert James because he. I had one of the most profound moments with him. I went through selection with Rob Reeves, and he. I wasn't his roommate, wasn't his best friend, but always, every time I spent time with Rob. Rob Reeves, it was just quality time. He was never rattled. Whenever I'd get rattled and have a idea, like. And he would say, he would be the guy, say, you know what? That's probably a bad idea. Just like that. Calm. That and gunfights. I've been in fights with him before, and it's like just the really good looking cool. And I went to his house after the bin Laden raid, and he was gold team. I was red team. And he. He just. He was good because I don't know how to handle that. You just killed bin Laden. No one knows how to handle that. And then you got the whatever. And so I don't know what we're going to do with this. So I went to his house and he. Po of red wine. I was a big drinker at the time. He said, you want a glass of red wine? I said, I'm good tonight. I think I'm good. He said, okay. He sat there with me and he took a sip of his red wine. He said, you know, one of these days, a lot of us are going to die on one of those helicopters. Yeah. Just like that. And then, what, a month later, he died on one of those helicopters. Because we're just packing it in. We all knew that one. You only. You only need to be right or wrong. Once a bullet needs to be right. Right. Once one RPG kills everybody. That's it. And he was on it.

[A]

And that's the thing. I think about that with all you guys. Oh, yeah.

[B]

We don't lose.

[A]

All these times we were there.

[B]

We don't lose it. Yeah.

[A]

It's like all you need was one that went this way instead of that way.

[B]

We Were on an insertion one time. And again, I. I mentioned the pilot's calm voice. Like when you're flying somewhere and you hit an air pocket and spill something on yourself. And the pilot comes over and says, well, obviously we've hit some weather up here at 38,000ft. It's a calm you the fuck down because you're not helping him. And he's got this right. He's a pilot. He's a fucking man. But we were inserting on a 47. It's always the 40. 47. And Al Mack was flying. I'll never forget Al Mack. Probably the greatest pilot in the history of the army. And that says a lot. Because if you're the best pilot in the history of the army, the best pilot ever. And, like, I mean, I have a shirt that we made that says, I know Al Mack. Like, he's the man. He saved everyone's life. When Neil Roberts fell out on. On Roberts Ridge at Takar Gar. Because he got hit. And then he. He. You got to talk to that guy. But he was flying us in on a 47. And it's again, we. With the. The twin thing bigger than a school bus. Like, this thing gets hit, everyone dies. And you never do a hot insert. That's Hollywood. If you're doing a hot insert, you up. And we didn't know these people. So we're inserting on a 47. I was a team leader on the ramp, and one of my other team leaders up front. We're looking at the starboard side and the right side. It's always the right side. And these flaming football started shooting at RPGs. Zip, zip. And we're on, like, final. So we're flaring, and you're. You're just. Just, this is it. And then we hear. I look at the team leader. We're on the communication system for the bird. And we hear, that's a dish. I look at him. I can hear him speaking. I see his mouth. He goes, is that a dishka? And they're designed to shoot. And we're like. And so there's a realization. This is. This could be an Al Mack. Knowing that he's flying the thing. He's flight lead. He came over to calist down. All he said was, well, this is. And that works.

[A]

And then he.

[B]

He landed, and we all got up. We killed every one of those. He took off.

[A]

Yeah, that's why he's him.

[B]

He needed to say that to us. I need you so I can snap out of it.

[A]

Comedy again.

[B]

And he Was right. This is.

[A]

Yeah. Did anything change for you when you had kids like perspective wise on the missions?

[B]

Yeah because I had my kids during. Before and during selection and then one

[A]

I had SEAL team six.

[B]

SEAL team six.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And yeah because they got the goodbyes. I was when, when we on my birthday Good Friday April 10th, I was in my daughter's Easter tea party at her preschool and I was actually bringing her a pink plate with cookies and that 4 year olds eat and I got a message for Camp Phillips and I had to look down on her and give her a kiss and go to war from a preschool classroom on a long week weekend. Like that's hard and like that. And as I. The hardest goodbye was when we were seven. That was a one way mission. We're gonna die on this. And so saying goodbye to them I said she was always there when I. I said goodbye to her on all those. But my youngest daughter at the time was three and she came. This is for bin Laden. I couldn't even tell him I was leaving.

[A]

How long before the mission is this?

[B]

Oh this is as I'm leaving like but how many. No, sorry. The one goodbye was for. Well when I kissed her goodbye for Captain Philip clubs. 15 hours and 46 minutes.

[A]

Yeah that one was right away for

[B]

I'm leaving for the Bin Laden raid right now.

[A]

So this is like four days before.

[B]

About a week before week.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then my daughter, my 3 year old got her hello Kitty carry on and put Mr. Elephant and a pillow in it because that's all she could understand. And she said something about taking her on vacation when I come home or some like crazy and then I gotta leave. Yeah, it's tough one. That's why the 90 minute flight back on the helicopter is like I might get to see him again. This is big. That's tough. They're tough kids man.

[A]

I'm saying though. But like I can't even imagine they don't know but you know because yeah

[B]

all your buddies know too. They did the same like these. We all have families. We're you know because we're 30, 33 year old dudes.

[A]

How do you walk away from that?

[B]

That's a good question. I know that I can cry for five minutes in my car but then I'll get there so I gotta stop. Like what can you. How can you compartmentalize whatever pain you're about to go and then. And then you then you got to turn it the on. This is. This could be it. They' to be proud of me. I wrote A letter when my. One of my daughters was seven. I didn't write it to the seven year old. I wrote it to the 27 year old. And I just saying I'm really sorry I missed your wedding. I know you're beautiful and I want to thank you for taking care of your sisters and your mom. And here's what we did. It was noble and why and tears hitting the page like I man, I'm explaining to her in 20 years why I'm not there. And then the hard. So I had three daughters at the time. I had to write them all letters. Then I have to find someone to give them to them because everyone with me is going to be dead. So I got to find someone who's not going to be dead. But that means he doesn't know what the mission is. So I had, I had a, like layer this in a manila envelope and find an intel guy. I found a Navy intel guy. I said, hey, here's who I am and here's this. And you're going to need to in 24 hours. There's instructions inside. So open this and do what you do and then just give it back to me when you see me next. If not. And he goes, how will I know? And I go, I assure you, you're gonna know. Just hold on to this for a while. Then I came back and I grabbed them. I immediately shredded him, which is probably a mistake.

[A]

You can't write that in a movie. No, you couldn't.

[B]

I should have helped with the movie. It was. It was pretty good.

[A]

That's just like. Like goosebumps on me.

[B]

It's real. I mean, it's the. That you think about that and then when you see other kids on target now, you think, well, that's someone's kid. Someone really cares about them. Yeah. And it's again, what if. What are we. What are all these men doing here? Here killing each other right now. And who's who sent us all here for?

[A]

Why do you think humanity can exist without war?

[B]

No, you don't. Humanity can't. Humanity could exist peacefully as if it weren't for humanity. I agree, but please explain that we just everything up. We. We. The third person to be created by God killed the fourth. Like it just. That's just how we. We do.

[A]

It's like societies change, technology changes relationships and how people interact across cultures. That changes in some ways too. But the human nature coefficient never changes.

[B]

Never.

[A]

It just operates in different ways. But I, I unfortunately agree with you. I. What I'd like to See, though I'm an optimist.

[B]

I am too.

[A]

You know what I'd like to see is a world that minimizes it. Where you do have like some nations around the world where there is legitimately like that phrase, like peace through strength, but it's a constant deterrent. And then people don't do things, but.

[B]

Well, I mean, you can find it. And the best way to do that is to take this thing in your pocket and leave it at home and then go outside in the grass, take your shoes off. Like, I got a thing with. This is a cool one too. With my. My youngest daughter, valor. She's a 2 year old and I was. Her name is Valor.

[A]

That's kind of sad.

[B]

Yeah. In Valor, they're is Hope.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

Yeah, she's good. She's my little buddy. And we will. What I like to do with her is we'll play the little game is let's go act like puppies. And I said that at first because I didn't realize how cool it actually was. But if you act more like a puppy, your life's better. All that means is we're going to take our shoes off, we're going to go out in the lawn and we're going to lay in the grass and look up and she gets to see the sky and the trees and doesn't get that angle. So I don't have a phone. There's no music playing. I hear the birds, I hear her laughing. And I'm getting the energy from the earth that all of a sudden there we could be doing better. And everyone can do that because again, all the problems on the phone are not all real. Yeah, there's. Yeah, I get pissed. But there is some good out there. It's just we need to put a check on the humanity 100%. And then also the, the people in power, you got to realize like they're telling you so they stay in power. Not for your good. They don't care about your good. They don't care about the blue collar worker. They don't care about raising your tax taxes. They care about staying in power. It's addicting. I've seen it in D.C. you walk outside, it's addicting.

[A]

How long did you stay there?

[B]

Probably two years. And I moved to Texas, then I met Jessica and then I moved to New York.

[A]

So this was after your first marriage and after obviously after you. What years was this when you were.

[B]

I got out in 2012, so.

[A]

Yeah. But what year were you in D.C.

[B]

i was in D.C. from 12 to 14.

[A]

Oh, right away.

[B]

Yeah, I moved right up. Like, I left my house house, moved my kids somewhere else, and I drove up to D.C. to start work.

[A]

And then two years later, I didn't

[B]

know what I was gonna do. Yeah, I didn't know what I was gonna do. And then I. Yeah. Moved to Texas. And then I met Jess in Florida. Then we went to New York.

[A]

Real quick. I gotta go to the bathroom.

[B]

Yeah, dude, I want to pick. I'm gonna stand up, too. All right.

[A]

So while we were away. We're back now. We pulled up this picture you were talking about earlier. Yeah.

[B]

That's Monrovia, Liberia, where we had to swim in because there was a civil war. And a little trivia there, too. Monrovia. So Liberia is a country that was actually given to freed slaves because Liberia means liberty.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Monroe. Monroe was the president's capital. And their American flag, it's a. It's a red, white and blue. There's one star. And they're actually very appreciative Americans.

[A]

That's cool. I didn't know that.

[B]

Yeah, they speak English over there. Yeah. And they're like. They're okay because you're involving people, so it turns into debauchery. But really, like, very proud of their country and like that just. They, you know, get in charge, don't have money, and also they start eating each other. So what are you gonna do? Yeah.

[A]

Were they happy to see you Come up on the beach one day.

[B]

One day you're just jumping bus fares, next you're eating each other.

[A]

Yeah, well, you know what? That's human.

[B]

No, but when we came in, you can see them celebrating all the people that fired up because they thought we were there to rescue them.

[A]

You look so different there.

[B]

Yeah, I was pretty big, and I was young, so.

[A]

Yeah. Look at the fat.

[B]

26. Big fat dip in.

[A]

Big fat dip in your chin. Right?

[B]

Yeah, we were. I. This is after my platoon with Jocko and Jocko, because I was a pretty good cardio guy, and Jocko said, that's cute, but if I get shot with all my on, can you carry me home? I was like, no. He goes, you need to get in the gym. And he would do stuff like, here's. Here's what we're going to do. Everyone in this work, everyone needs to bench press over £300. And then we're going to eat together. And when you're done eating, we're going to eat a little more. And that was just it. So.

[A]

But, yeah, I can get with that.

[B]

Yeah, it's cool.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

On a Navy ship, if you have the right chefs, they can cook a lot of burgers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you just eat straight beef. Yeah, but, yeah, we got big. We were bench pressing big. And then we just swam in there and then looked over.

[A]

You're looking Jack. Like, that's the right kind of big. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. Swimming in the Atlantic through crocodiles will do that. There was no crocodiles, just to be clear, because I will get called out on social media. You're in Liberia, there's no crocodiles.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Well, there could be.

[A]

Well, they told you there could.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, the thought of it, you get in a pool, you don't think there's a shark, but you. As soon as you're in the water, you do.

[A]

All right, well, going back to the end of your career and the consummation of it, if you will, when you had, obviously the one of the greatest special admissions of all time that we've been talking about all day with the bin Laden thing, the first of all, what was the decision making process? Like what? Or the legality of, like, you eventually coming public with being one of the guys? Because not everyone on the team is public.

[B]

No, that. That's an internal dynamic that started that the second bin Laden was dead because the first question everyone asked was who got him, including in the house. That was actually kind of funny because I overheard a conversation who got him? And he said, nisro. And the guy goes, we're never gonna hear the end of this. So that started and then, you know, even you get back. We got back to jbad, then we flipped a Bogum with the body. As soon as the army took the body to dump and see, like they said they did, we went to find the CBs they said they said they did.

[A]

I don't say it like I didn't

[B]

see him get dumb. They told me. They told me just like they told you.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I didn't see it happen if I didn't see it happen.

[A]

Maybe you did see the body though, right?

[B]

I killed Osama bin Laden. I saw him standing. I saw him dead. That dead. Okay, that's good. Well, the way I put it too is I shot the guy who got out of bed with Mrs. Bin Laden. So he had it coming. He's getting killed that day, you know, if it ain't been l. But if Balon comes home, he's gonna be pretty pissed off. But yeah. Then we went over to the Seabees because the construction. Construction battalion, Navy Seabees, they. They will have a pizza oven because they're builders. They'll have booze because they're Navy. So we went there. They have Internet. And then we started to see the Seal Team 6 coming up on Yahoo and all that. And guys are making phone calls, and they'll call their buddies in San Diego, and they'll talk to a bartender where it's like, hey, I don't tell anybody, but. And then my name's just out. So I was out. By the time we got back to Virginia, we flew back that night, and it's just out. We had a big party at Seal Team 6. We went out to the Ready Room room, which is where they filmed the scene in Navy seals where Charlie Sheen, like, beat up that dude and kissed him. Same bar. How fitting is that?

[A]

That's kind of cool.

[B]

He would have been admirable by now. Admiral Hawkins, Charlie Sheen. I called him too. Not after it took me a few years to be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But he gave me the script, and I have a signed picture of him. I think he signed Admiral Hawkins on it.

[A]

Oh, that's actually.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did he put winning there too?

[B]

You know what? I'm gonna send it back to him. He'll do it.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

Yeah, but so then we. We fly back, and it just. It starts. Started to spread, and we had fellows at the White House seals, and they call and say, hey, congratulations to me. It's like, okay, the word's out. And. And then it just. It sort of gets to a point where I can either say that I had nothing to do with it or pretend people don't know, or I can, you know, admit. And then I. When I was working in D.C. i met a congresswoman named Carolyn Maloney who represented that part of Manhattan. And she said, you should donate something to the memorial. And so I did.

[A]

Did.

[B]

I brought.

[A]

She knew.

[B]

She knew that I was a shooter. Yeah. And so I brought the shirt that I wore in the American flag that I wore up there, and I donated to the 911 memorial. And it's there now. But when I was donating it, she being a politician. 30 families are now in this room where I'm donating it. So I need to tell them a story. I wasn't happy about that, but they're all. They all had family members die on 9 11. So then I'm like, okay, if anyone deserves to hear this, they deserve it. So I told them the story for the first time in public that you. That. That I told the Whole thing up to where I shot him. And. And I was told there's never going to be closure on the worst day of my life. But this helps with the healing process. Having a name and a real name and a face to it.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I had one dude had his grandson there because there's his dad. His son died because of 9, 11. And the. The son said, or the grandpa said, my son, my grandson's always been asking, why did God do this? And I said, God didn't do this. The devil did this. And you, sir, killed the devil. Devil. It's like, first of all, what the fuck was that to say to me? But then it's like, wait, if I can help these families, I can help more. So that's when I had my. I had been taking notes. I have my journal. So I had some editors hit that we submitted to the Pentagon and went to all the agencies and then they approved it. And that's my book. The.

[A]

And when was that again?

[B]

2017.

[A]

2017.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, that's. I mean, by the way, that place over there, what they did with Ground

[B]

Zero, everyone should see that. Everyone. Real. Not a happy place, but you need to see it.

[A]

It's not, but it's one of those things that to this day, if I am down in that part of Manhattan, you can't not stop.

[B]

You gotta go.

[A]

You can't not stop for like 90 seconds you just stand there silent.

[B]

It's very solemn.

[A]

Yeah, very, very solemn. But then the museum, to be able to do all that, you know, again, it doesn't bring closure or anything like

[B]

that, but at least it's like, wait, I mean, there's. There's a. A segment there where there's like five floors of the World Trade Center. Five of them, but they're not even the size of that wall because they were just pancakes and they're just sitting. It's like that. Each one of those is an office that's in there, like. And regardless of the conspiracies that happened.

[A]

Oh, yeah, it's crazy.

[B]

It's. Some people live through that. People jumped. We talked about the single mom who dropped her kids off at elementary school and an hour later she jumped to her death. Because that's a better alternative than the fire inside, you know, like, she probably looked around for a stranger's hand, you know, last year, human decency was holding her skirt.

[A]

It's one of the first days in my life that I can remember every single thing that happened. And where also it being a negative event, I at least had Some grasp of the gravity. Not all the way. When you're like 7, 8 years old, you can't get it all the way. But like, I. I got it to the extent that, like, this is. Whoa. The world just changed.

[B]

At least. Entire world change. That's a. It's a reset.

[A]

Where were you that day?

[B]

I was in Germany. I just finished in Kosovo. I was cleaning up my gear from being a sniper in Kosovo. And then I was in operations sending emails which weren't even that proficient at the time. And the TV came out like everybody else. I saw it on tv and then, oh, our life just changed. Everything changed because we were going to go home to Virginia, so we might go to Sudan. What the are we going to do? Because we're going.

[A]

Did you know who it was right away?

[B]

Bin Laden was mentioned a few seconds afterwards. Yeah. Because we'd heard of him. I'd ship when I went to Albania the first time, guarding an awards ceremony. They mentioned Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden in 1998. Like, we knew about him. 2000. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, even in 93, the World Trade center bombing, that was Al Qaeda. And then he was involved with the Mujahideen in. In Afghanistan. He's been around.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The.

[A]

Cole's one that gets forgotten about all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My friend Mike Ritland was on that one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or the cleanup of that, I should say. Crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there was a one in Libya, too, I think.

[B]

Yeah. Well, that there was two embassies. Kenya, Tanzania.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

They were all over the place. They were in Sudan for a while and they moved Afghanistan. They're. They're not our friends.

[A]

One of the craziest stories that's like a huge what if moment that I heard was when I forget who was telling it, but it was towards the end of Clinton's time where it took a while, but apparently, like, the Clinton White House eventually kind of got it on, like some of the threat here.

[B]

Some of them. Yeah, yeah. They weren't. They weren't too serious about it. They were. More scandals.

[A]

They literally. Well, they had that to worry about, too, but they literally were like, apparently just totally ignoring it for years. And then towards the end, they were like, okay, all right, there's something here. And there was some sort of early drone footage or something else.

[B]

Yeah. When he was walking around. And that was a jb. Yeah. Yeah. That's a funny story. He was living in Jalalabad. That's where our safe house was. And we brought in. So we. We weren't all seals. We had Navy guys like, Navy, like brand new to the Navy. And they get a sign to Seal Team 6. So they're running the radios in a, in a truck, not. Not going off base, whatever. And this kid for some reason got stationed with us in JJ. So we're SEAL team six shooters. This poor Navy kid. And we're like, yeah, this is blah, blah, blah. And we're showing him the map to get the lay land. And we're like, yeah, so that's Osam bin Laden's house, blah, blah, blah. And he goes, oh my God, did we check there yet? And we're like, I mean, that he lived there. Yeah, we checked. I like the enthusiasm. Let's go check.

[A]

That would have made it easy.

[B]

Well, that have been cool. There he is. Okay, war's over.

[A]

He never left. Wow. Crazy. But when, when you finish the mission and you do the after action report this. We were talking about this off camera a little bit before, but this is where a lot of this stuff has come public now because now you filed a lawsuit as well, I believe against some guys who have been like trying to say your story is not real. And you've been backing up the reality of your story because it's been out there for a long time. But when you guys did the after action report, there's one detail that is different than what you actually put in there. Can you just explain what that was?

[B]

Well, the issue. See, the issue is we. The after action that we gave over Bin Laden's body was in Jalalabad. And that's when we had the entire team around his body. And the ground force commander went to Admiral McCra Craven and he was saying, hey there. And he goes, oh, do you want to meet the guy that shot him? And he came over and McRaven said the same thing to me that another guy said. He's like, well, you're. He said, that's been lying. Your life just changed forever or whatever. It's like, yeah, okay, whatever. And so we do that and then we send him, we put him on a C130, McRaven leaves, we fly him to Bagram, we put his body out here. And then there were all of our gear is going on tables. We actually. President Obama came down a red carpet. We're watching tv and he said, tonight I can report to the American people into the world. The United States conduct an operation to kill the Osama bin Laden, leader of Al Qaeda. And that's a moment where I'm eating a breakfast sandwich. There's I Hear the president say Osama bin Laden. I look at Osama bin Laden, take a bite of a sandwich, and think, how the fuck did I get here from Butte, Montana, when I try to be a Marine? But then we go, we eat up, and then we do our things with no. We go into a back room, and the ground force commander comes in and he said, all right, we're going to sit down now and we're going to record this for history's sake. And he hits record for history. Yeah. So now every shooter in the room is like, like, no. What the. No. And then he takes, he hit stop. And then he, like, he can tell. He kind of. And then he hits record. He's like, I. So now we're in a position like, I'm not saying a thing, like, goes on, and you don't, you don't need to know, sir, how justice is served. So.

[A]

But then were you worried about, like, some of the legality if, like, people had shot him late or something like that?

[B]

Yeah, I, I, yeah, I, I, I just, I'm, I'm. Me personally, I'm going to say as little as I can. So we got to, like, some guys talked about the guest house, and then me and the appointment talked a little bit about the stairs, and then it kind of just went away. And that was it. I mean, and what.

[A]

And the point man said that he.

[B]

I believe, I believe what was said. I haven't heard it. I was there, and I talked to Cheese about it, and he agrees. It's like, this is, this is not at all, like, an example of this. The way we do it, Seal Team 6 is we were hitting in Iraq in 07. Like, you'd hit a target, you find intel, hit another target, find intel. So they're following targets, and we want to get out of there. In Iraq. One night, the sun's coming up. I want to be out. So I had my GRG out. Like, you carry it like a quarterback doesn't. It's right here. And I got the ground force commander here, the officer. I said, all right, here's the deal. Right now, we're in the 300 series. I want to go back to the 100 series. We're going to hit. And I look at him and I go, you know what, sir? You're in charge. And he goes, oh, no, make no mistake, I'm not in charge. I'm responsible. Responsible. You're in charge. Don't me meaning get it done. Now we're in a spot where for the first time, we're recording it and we're just. No one's saying. And so we agreed the appointments had something about maybe clipping them and then I finished or something like that. That's. That, I think is whatever. We're done with it. So that was the recorded thing, I think. But I don't know. But you.

[A]

But what you were saying back then is like, you saw him.

[B]

What we're saying in the debrief is, is he was probably hit by more than one guy and we're leaving it at that. And my thought process was I. I've seen again, Leavenworth. I've seen guys go to. And Amal got shot, by the way. So she got shot. The wife. Yes. Somehow I'm not going to report that either. I'm going to tell my side and leave it at that.

[A]

Well, he was using her as a human shield.

[B]

Possibly. I didn't shoot her, though. She got hit.

[A]

Yeah. Guys, where'd you. Where'd you shoot him?

[B]

I shot him in the face three times. And that's. There's no. Because I was closer to him than I am to you.

[A]

And he was standing right.

[B]

Standing. Well, for the first two, he wasn't. It was. Yeah. First two were fast. And the reason that happens is because he's a suicide bomber. Like, all they need to do is connect the leads on their wrist and everything goes boom. Fast. So that's the. He had half a second to convince me not to kill him and he didn't do it.

[A]

And the point man, when he came in the room had jumped on a couple women that he thought, yeah, he came in the room.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, he knows what happened. If you ever hear from him, great. I hope he tells him story. That's fucking.

[A]

Have you talked to him?

[B]

No, that's not. I deployed one more time to Afghanistan in. No, sorry. November of 2012, because I decided I was going to get out after extortion got shut down because my end of obligated service was January of. Sorry. January of 12 was my end of obligated service. So the 11th of February deployed again because we needed a backfill seniority for all the Gold Squadron guys that got killed. So I went to Silver School Squadron, did one more deployment. And my thought process there was, I came in through the front door. I'm leaving through the front door. So I'm going to war one more time. And other guys went out and wrote books and right behind my back said I was doing it too.

[A]

Said you were doing what?

[B]

Yeah, o' Neill's Getting out. And one of his writing a book.

[A]

And I wasn't, but they were.

[B]

Someone asked me that I was in Afghanistan and I got an email and then I called my command, not commanding, but my troop commander from the mission. And he said, did you just sign a book deal for $17 million? And I said, well, no, for a few reasons. One, I'm in Afghanistan and it's winter. Two, I. I don't think you know anything about book deals because only presidents will sign a deal for 17 million. So. No, no. But that's just word getting spread about me as I'm over whatever. And I'm not whatever. Not poor me. It. It is what it is, but that's just how gets started. And then that eventually leads up to people saying, because the lawsuit is not about who killed bin Laden, the lawsuit is about malicious defamation of character. You cannot call me a fraud for two and a half straight years trying to ruin my business by calling people saying, don't work with him because he's a fraud, simply because someone's story might differ from mine in one room on one mission.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And by the way.

[A]

And they're referring to Matt Bisonettes. Yeah, but you know, you know what?

[B]

But he's not doing. He got in a guy's ear and said, trust me. And then now he's gone. That's what he does every time.

[A]

And if you read his behind you right.

[B]

I don't know where the he was. He says in his book, he doesn't know what happened.

[A]

Did you guys get along?

[B]

I love the guy.

[A]

You loved him.

[B]

One of the best guys there.

[A]

You know what? When I look at this, When I look at this whole situation, you guys

[B]

pulled off the greatest.

[A]

Well, literally the no.

[B]

1. One of.

[A]

One of.

[B]

I. I think that mission wasn't that hard.

[A]

The mission you pulled off with bin Laden.

[B]

Nah, man, it was the pilots did the job. We. They got. We just went in and took a house down. That's what he said.

[A]

Oh, home.

[B]

Pretty. Pretty cut. Most wanted guy shoots at you, you can't kill him. It's like that's his biz.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Just. He's been watching the show. I like this. So. But what I'm saying is I've never, like. I just think the whole thing's amazing and what people did was amazing. And I always. And I think about this with a lot of different military. Like on military stuff I've seen over the years. I always stay the out of it, like, whatever. But, you know, that's what should be celebrated the Fact that it was pulled off and what it is. And to me, it's very similar to like, like the ultimate winning and then it gets pulled down from within. Like, Kobe and Shaq played together. Amazing. They're winning all these titles and whatever, and then they just get in their own heads.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

Same thing.

[B]

When I checked in to SEAL Team 6, Red Squadron, a guy by the name of Wyman Howard was in charge. He made admiral complete badass. And he. When we're getting briefed, as I'm thinking of how funny these guys are, I remember him saying, now when we all retire, which we will, because this, this, it's going to end if, if we work together, we're all going to be millionaires. But that will never happen. I'm like, why? And he's like, just trust me. You guys are never going to work together again. Just. I don't know if it's the ego or I don't know if it's being told we're special from the very first day, but me, me, me. Like, it's crazy.

[A]

You know, there's a line that was in the office. Who the said it in the office, but it's so true. Where he's like, I wish. I wish when we were in the good old days, we knew that those were the good old days.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I wish, like, for you guys, you guys could.

[B]

We did. We did an 07 in 2007 in Iraq in the summer. We did. We're living in tents with the AC breaking. No wi fi, no nothing. No. Well, I learned how to sing the Cincinnati Bengal. The Bengal Growl, the fight song. Because I'm sleeping.

[A]

One of those.

[B]

I'm sleeping in between two guys on cots that are from Cincinnati. Like, we. That's what we did. We sing to each other and we're killing people every night.

[A]

We're.

[B]

We're. We're leaving on Helic. We don't have. We can't do laundry. And we. We realized he's sitting with these stinky, dipping and eating crap. Like, these are the best days of our lives right now. This is the best summer of your life. We're hunting people. We miss our kids. This is the best summer of my life.

[A]

Maybe that's the best time and the best summer. I'll buy that for sure. But like the good old days, this singular mission of, like, you guys get back that base. You're eating your egg salad sandwich.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Next to Bin Laden's body. And you guys are all sitting there. You all survived. You Thought you all were going to die. Yeah, I wish there could be like a moment where you guys just capture that like in a little ball that you can squeeze for comfort once in a while.

[B]

Realize, hey, you tell the other 22 guys I'm down, let's do it.

[A]

Now some of you guys get along though, right?

[B]

No, I talk to a lot of the guys quite a bit and then some guys just lose touch. Another thing that was said to me is SEAL Team 6 is a, is a locomotive going 100 miles an hour and you can stay on as long as you like. Once you get off, it's going to keep going. And that's true. And again the guys on the mission said that's the greatest team I've ever been a part of. Yeah, what a bunch of studs. I mean everything, everything, everyone snipers, everyone's funny, everyone's awesome, everyone's a father. Like, it's just really cool. Yeah, great dudes. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, yeah. I mean in that aspect, what a mission. We got it, we got a take an all star team.

[A]

It's unreal but like after, does it feel you?

[B]

No, it doesn't seem real now. It's like I just know the story. We didn't do that.

[A]

But I'm saying like once people start having different stories and making as the years go on and then this guy says that, and that guy says that like does it feel like betrayal?

[B]

I don't think it's changed it. My story has not changed. And the guy in front of me just isn't talking and he probably never will. And then there's one guy behind.

[A]

And you don't talk with him really anymore?

[B]

No, I'd like to, I'd to like love to, but no, I'll probably never talk to him again. And then the guy behind me, he just never says where. And that's the thing too is like I, I can ask, I mean again, I have no ill will towards this team. I love this team. But I can, I can, they know that. I can ask them all. Okay, physically, where were you? Where were you physically when I killed bin Laden? Where were you? And they all know I can do that, right? Three men. The guy, point man for the second train admits he didn't, doesn't know what happened in that room. He knows he's dead. And we know he got shot a bunch after killed him.

[A]

But you and the point man from your room, you don't think he'll ever talk again?

[B]

I'd like to, man. I, I again, he saved my life by jumping on a. Yeah, I again, you will never hear me say a bad thing about him is that just

[A]

because like, he really didn't want to be public and he's just, he would now.

[B]

He was one of those guys and I've known him a long time and I've gone to war with him a lot. And we've killed people in the same rooms. We've done entries together a lot. We went up to Midland Stairs together. I know him and he was never a guy to talk. He never wanted it. He doesn't want the limelight. He doesn't want any. He doesn't even want to get credit. He wouldn't want an award. He wants to do that job and then he wants to go to his family and then live his life out like that.

[A]

So that's why he stays away, probably. Yeah.

[B]

And he's a great storyteller. One of the funniest dudes I know. And I would love to say the type of story you can tell, but that would say where he's from and I don't want to do that to him. Yeah, but man. Yeah, I mean, one of my favorites.

[A]

That's cool.

[B]

Oh, I mean, again with the guys. I would assume we just see him like, all right, well, that's was stupid. Whatever. It's not the worst thing I've seen you do worse.

[A]

What's it like to walk around though, after the fact and it's out like in some bars in San Diego, it's out with some people in the government and stuff like that. But you're not out to like the. To me and De and to other people and like you walk into the Wawa and people don't know like yo, this guy.

[B]

At first, at first. It is weird. It is a weird. If you knew you'd have a question to type situation or sitting with a bartender. And like when I was in Fayetteville working with jsoc, I didn't know. So I'd live in a hotel. I'd go to the bar and with the bartender. She didn't know the. I wasn't kind of like you. I mean that's. It's on TV still, you know. You know, it was a funny interaction on TV was with my daughter who was 7 was cutest shits because she to this day knows she's not allowed to talk about it. But she's sitting. We're on the couch the next week. I just gotta like. I just got a book from Chris Kyle and my Initial thought was I don't want to. Why would I want a book from a seal? And I open it says, great shot Chris Kyle. And I'm like, well, this is the coolest book I own now. And then. So my daughter's here and she's not supposed to say, I'm trying to process this still. And we look up at TV and we, I remember we had CNN on I'll never forget and they're doing viewer email. We're taking the best story of where you were when you found out Bin Laden was dead. And I'm looking at it and my daughter goes, all right dad, she's seven. She goes, you have to email them and if you say you're in his bedroom, you're going to get on tv. It's like, that's funny. So yeah, just weird conversation.

[A]

You should have sent that email.

[B]

I know I should have but I wasn't going to get out.

[A]

That would have been the most savage way to get out.

[B]

I killed him.

[A]

I was in his bedroom.

[B]

Okay, we can all agree I was in his bedroom. That's a cool email. There's not going to be a lawsuit about the fact that I was in his bedroom. Oh man. Yeah.

[A]

And so you got out in 2020, 2012.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And that was a wake up too because I even so I've got my three kids and I've separated but I, I asked the Navy what, what's the extension for healthcare for my kids? They said, oh, at midnight it's over. So it's like thanks for coming. Beat it.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't, I don't have a degree so I was like I better figure out a job.

[A]

Was it, was it hard to turn off from that though because you were in for so many.

[B]

No, it was at first meaning the first time I got back from Afghanistan I was driving my daughters and my wife home and I was driving really fast and aggressive and I was like because I was just driving in Jalalabad for the summer.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so I had to tone it down and. But then you just get, you could legit compartmentalize the out of it just you murder people, then you're going to a recital.

[A]

But later like you said it creeps

[B]

up later in life not at the time. You're literally competing with your friends to get more cat. Like I remember 1. Do you remember of like Halo 2 or 1 where you those old. But it's important to the story when you'd shoot and you'd hear the voice go gain the lead. Oh yeah, yeah, we saw a dude do that one time from Gold Team, the EOD guy. Explosive or disposal? You know, you guys are studs. They're the bomb text. But a lot of times you put them on security when assault is going. So guy gets off holding security, three dudes pop up who are sleeping and he blasts all. Pow, pow, pow. Gained the lead on the radio.

[A]

Oh my God. That's.

[B]

That's. That's the best radio call in the history of radio calls.

[A]

That's pretty.

[B]

Yeah, like you got guys laugh.

[A]

Yeah, that's some dark ass comedy, right?

[B]

Oh yeah. And that, I mean to think of that like you. He didn't know they were there. And then he does and then he thinks to. Hey, I got to say, because I hear this all the time when I shoot monsters on Halo. The only difference is these three probably. These three probably had families.

[A]

Oh my God. My God. So you're so you're going through with this whole thing though. You're trying to go to, to court with this, with the.

[B]

Yeah, I want to take it to court. Yeah.

[A]

What pushed you over the top?

[B]

When he said if I was lying, he'd sue me. So I sued him. And unfortunately with that comes discovery and you have my side and you have stuff that he doesn't have and it's just a matter of. I mean it. Look, the truth is always good because you, you don't need to remember bullshit. And I'm just telling the truth. So. I mean, let the chips, I don't care where they fall. The fucker should have called me instead of starting a podcast.

[A]

Yeah, I do wish, like, there'd be more, I guess like off record conversations with the military.

[B]

And the thing is, we'd get a boy, we'd all get along. Even that dude Platner up there, that's our plant, Platinum. The, The Marine that's running for Senate in Maine. And he's got the horrible videos out there.

[A]

Oh, is this a guy with like the Nazi tattoo or whatever? I don't really know anything.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it's fun. Now the Democrats are beacon away from him because he's a problem. And look again, something, someone who can't pick make a cheeseburger should also be told, look, if someone has an anonymous Reddit account, probably not Senate material because once it comes out, the guy's a clown. Yeah, but I mean, but with veterans. Don't said it. Just have a conversation. And I'm guilty of it too, man. I've said horrible too. Alcohol and Twitter, that.

[A]

Yeah, it's not a good combination.

[B]

It's a horrible combination. Another.

[A]

Yet another reason date on the hand to not like this.

[B]

Yeah, if you tweet a enough you will get a tattoo on your head saying when you quit drinking.

[A]

The best tweets I've sent are the ones that never go out.

[B]

Oh, dude, that's the best. I tell people that I would tell my guys in combat, don't react, do respond. And the way to do that is when you get and I do take this advice every day. When you get really pissed, boy, type that text. Do not hit send for 24 hours.

[A]

100%. They go to drafts and then I delete it.

[B]

Boy, it feels good though. Abe Lincoln did that. That's a story for you. Abe Lincoln would write letters and put them in his desk. So I saw that desk. This is a good story. I went to dinner at the White House during Trump's first term. He invited, actually invited me and Pete Hegseth and I didn't know Hex was in the running for sec death, but he invited us in. So Jen Heath, his wife, and then Jessica. That's a good story too, because I said, hey, hey, Jessica, we're pack an overnight bag, we're flying to D.C. to go to dinner with the President. And she, she goes, oh, it's going to be a big D dinner though, right? And I go, intimate. And she, she goes, I'm not going to be sitting close to him. And I go, well, probably right next to him. And she said, oh my God, what do I say? And I said, that's the good news. You won't have to say because he will not shut up. It's awesome. It's fun to talk to. So we go down there. Sure. Well, the first thing he said, like, we get in there and the President walks. He's a funny dude. He walks up and winks at me and looks at her and goes, she looks like Melania. I'm like, oh, geez, F ck dude. So we sit down. He, he. But anyways, we finished dinner. It was a blast. And he said, do you want to see the Lincoln Bedroom? And I said, well, it is 8:30. Yes, I want to see the. So he like sprints because he, he likes the Secret Service to chase him. So the way that it works is like the, the Pennsylvania Avenue is the smaller one, but that's where the stairs lead to the residence where the first family lives. When you go up there. So he's run up there, I'm following him. I think the first door on the left is the Lincoln Bedroom. And so he just kind of showed it to me. And I walk in because I want to see it first. Peter Pete, I'm gonna see this fuck the future Secretary of War. And I go in, and there's his bed. First thing I see is his bed. And it's huge. And that's like, where his son died. And it's like, okay, wow. Then there's the desk. And I'm like, this is the desk. And then I see another desk. And it's on the window to the South Lawn. Like, you can see where they watch the fireworks. And I walk over. The South Lawn's lit up below the desk. Under this glass is the Gettysburg Address, handwritten, signed, right by Abraham Lincoln. Now I've seen some cool in my life. I am officially having an out of body experience. I turn around and Trump's leaning against the door, and he goes, you know, o', Neill, not everybody gets to see this. Unless, of course, you donate to the Clinton Foundation. And I go, you just can't stop. I can't even enjoy this without that. And then he goes something along again. These are my stories. He might disagree a little bit, but it was something like he said, yeah, Melanie's mad about something. Hey, to the Secret Service. Take o' Neill to the basement. Show them where those limey started that fire in 1814. I'm like, I don't think we even say that either, either.

[A]

Yeah, I don't.

[B]

He may not have said it in his defense, because this is all for entertainment value, but I heard that. And then he took us down there. He's like. I was like, no. And I had. It was like 10. 10 glasses of Trump wine deep. I'm like, this is.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Pretty dope. I'm drinking Trump wine in the basement looking at the fire. Can we get a picture out front? They let us go out there, so me and Jess, we got a selfie in there.

[A]

Isn't that, like, that place? I. I can't even imagine being in that, dude.

[B]

Yeah, the Capitol building too. The ladies cloak room is, I think, haunted by John. John Adams ghost. Yeah. Looked at who's haunts the lady clothes. Oh, The Calvin, the D.C. this is like a story. Oh, it was real.

[A]

Like a real thing.

[B]

I saw him.

[A]

John Adams something.

[B]

Look up.

[A]

Who was he? Like a peeping Tom or something?

[B]

Must have been, right? Yeah, he had those glasses. No, it's Ben Franklin.

[A]

Franklin was. I don't think he needs.

[B]

No, but like, D.C. is great if you get away from the Filth. But, like, the history is awesome.

[A]

Yeah, the history is kind of cool.

[B]

Is that John Quincy Adams? Yeah. And he was. He would famously. He would skinny dip in the Potomac and that, like, those. There was beavers out there. So at some of the hotels, they'll sell pet or stuffed beavers. Yes, I just said serious. It was famous for that.

[A]

Beavers, like, bite. No, like.

[B]

Like beater. No. I don't know. I think they adopted one or something because he didn't have a dog.

[A]

All right, so this is real thief.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

John Quincy Adams.

[B]

So John Quincy Adams. Yeah, he haunts it. Okay. But, yeah, his ghost is in the cloak room. That place is cool.

[A]

God damn.

[B]

And then you go to those places where they would have the old. The old Congress, and there's, like, the name place for who would sit there and the gold ones became president. But there's little rooms where you can go to one side, and if you whisper, it goes to that side. So you can actually have conversations with the echo. So what politics?

[A]

Pantheon, dude.

[B]

It's badass. So what politicians would do? They have a. The foreigners come in, they're going to negotiate. Okay, you guys go discuss over there. And so they hear him discussing, but they're listening to everything, and then they negotiate. They know. They know. Yes. D.C. school, the capital School, the Spy Machine Museum, I guess, is badass. Who was.

[A]

I think Joby Work was telling me about that, said, you got to go to that.

[B]

Where is that in D.C. that is. Yeah, it's in. It's. I don't know, but it's in D.C. yeah. Joby works to go there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, he's a good dude.

[A]

Yeah. You know Joby a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, he actually. He did one of the blurbs on my book.

[A]

Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Jovi's been on the podcast three times before. It's my.

[B]

He knows ISIS pretty well, man.

[A]

He. I mean, he wrote the fucking encyclopedia.

[B]

I was with him, and he was writing that. I remember that.

[A]

You were with him?

[B]

I was. I wasn't helping him write it, but I was, like, meeting him for drinks and. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Now, some of my guys who are, like, active in the military have told me that it's not like there's, like, a required reading list or whatever, but some of the ones who have gone to, like, get stationed in certain places in the Middle East. The guys there will be like, all right, read these three books. And the first one's always Black Flags. So, like, this just captures, like, the essence of, like, what we're dealing with and we'll go from there.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

You got any regrets?

[B]

I didn't have that glass of red wine with Rob Reeves when he said that about the helicopter. That's. That's like one regret I have is I should have had that drink with him. But the rest of them, two regrets are something like now, even the up. I learned from it. So there's no point in going through wishing. Like, you don't get time back, and you need to realize that. So just learn from it. Try to move on. And guess what? If you do the same thing again, try. Try not to do it it. So if you. If you're worried about in the past, it's a. It's just a waste of your time.

[A]

Yeah. You seem like you have great clarity now.

[B]

I. I like to think so. But yeah, again, like the advice I've given, I have to do it because I find myself flipping out because, like, yelling at AI because you're not telling me how to fix the obs. Yelling with the demon that's running Claude. And she's just with me because I gave her that voice.

[A]

No, you can't developed a relationship with the hot claws.

[B]

So funny. It's like, stop apologizing. We're not friends.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

Nro. No. And I made.

[A]

They made movies about this. I told you.

[B]

Nizro calls me Nizro.

[A]

Oh, that's not good.

[B]

That's fun, though.

[A]

All right. That's not clarity right there.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

But, Rob, I really appreciate you doing.

[B]

This has been a blast.

[A]

You're a lot of fun to talk with and likewise, obviously. Very cool after all these years, to finally meet you.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

And hear it.

[B]

Well, we'll do this again, too. I'm gonna get you on the operator podcast.

[A]

That would be awesome. I'd be honored.

[B]

Well, you got to come help me design my studio video because I was arguing with Claude about that today.

[A]

All right, Definitely come up there. We'll fix you up the deal.

[B]

All right.

[A]

All right. Thank you, sir.

[B]

Yeah, brother.

[A]

Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Hey, guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you.