HEATED DEBATE: Charlie Kirk, the Elites, NASA Moon Landing & Soviet History | Elizabeth Lane • 355

Summary

Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 355: HEATED DEBATE — Charlie Kirk, the Elites, NASA Moon Landing & Soviet History | Elizabeth Lane (Nov 14, 2025)

Overview

This intellectually charged episode features journalist Elizabeth Lane, known for her nuanced takes on geopolitics and history, in conversation with host Julian Dorey. They dive into heated territories: the death of Charlie Kirk, the blurred lines of government and corporate power, the true nature of Soviet history, the plausibility of the US moon landing, and America’s current trajectory. The tone is candid, combative yet respectful, with both participants actively challenging each other's perspectives.

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Major Discussion Segments

[00:00–08:00] Personal Backgrounds, Loyalty & Identity

• Elizabeth Lane’s Origins: Born in the country Georgia (not the U.S. state), moved to the U.S. after childhood.
• Elizabeth on Loyalty: Advocates for "picking one country and being loyal."
• Inspiration from JFK: Became enamored with American ideals through researching Kennedy as a teen: "Whatever this guy is about, I want to be part of." [06:00]
• Kennedy’s Ideals Discussed: Emphasis on power to the people, hybrid democracy, and freedom.

[08:00–27:00] American System: Corporate Fascism vs. Communism

• Defining Corporate Fascism: Elizabeth frequently asserts, “America isn’t becoming communist, it’s becoming fascist,” explaining that it's now dominated by a "corporate elite" that holds more sway than the government.
• Quote: "The government I can vote in, vote out, and I can impeach. I cannot vote in or vote out a CEO... or even convince people not to buy a certain brand." [24:00]
• Elizabeth argues government control is preferable over unchecked corporations (“the corporate world can’t be fought, but the government can be changed”—[25:00]), while Julian probes more into how lobbying and regulatory capture have complicated the power balance.
• Middle Class Decline: Julian notes the "shrinking American dream" and how economic power has become concentrated among elites.

[27:00–40:00] Foreign Policy & American Elites: Overthrowing Regimes

• U.S. Interventions: Conversation moves to critiques of US foreign interventions, with Elizabeth referencing multiple examples—Latin America, Iran, and contemporary Georgia.
• Quote: "We are the number one terrorist of the world. No doubt about that. The reason these countries are authoritarian is because they have to be.” [37:28]
• Case Study—Georgia: Elizabeth details current and historical pressures exerted by the US/Western bloc on her native Georgia and recounts whether peaceful or democratic leaders were ever truly left alone.

[40:00–50:00] The Reality of Power, Kennedy, and Secret Societies

• Discussion pivots to John F. Kennedy’s unique stance against the CIA and "secret societies," with Elizabeth crediting his resistance to shadowy power as a major cause of his assassination.
• Quote: "He was the only president who ever mentioned secret societies and how there is no place for them in a free country and free world." [49:18]

[50:00–56:00] Moon Landing Debate

• Was the Moon Landing Real? Elizabeth shares she heard from a "very credible insider" that the U.S. faked the moon landing.
• Julian, skeptical but open, counters: "My biggest argument... every country in the world, including rivals, would have had reason to try to disprove it because it was such an achievement." [51:12]
• Elizabeth remains agnostic: "I trust the person I talked to, but I don’t know. But I think that this person is correct." [53:16]

[57:00–82:00] The Soviet Union: Myths, Origins & Propaganda

• Soviet Myths & Western Narratives: Elizabeth breaks down common misconceptions about Soviet history, exploring the backgrounds of Trotsky (lived in New York pre-revolution), Lenin, and Stalin.
• Quote: “Trotsky... was living in New York and he was somehow able to have a chauffeur, a private driver, a refrigerator—...What ground do you have?” [59:02]
• She claims much of the early Soviet story stemmed from Western (especially Wall Street) funding aiming to destabilize the Tsarist regime.
• On Stalin: Elizabeth draws a nuanced portrait:
  • Stalin started as a believer in communism, shaped by personal tragedy.
  • Eventually, he “turned on the globalists that funded the revolution,” purging the original Bolshevik intelligentsia.
  • Julian pushes back, reminding of Stalin’s atrocities ("documented to have murdered millions") [63:09]; Elizabeth doesn’t deny the deaths but argues, “No one argues he was a bad guy... but the numbers are not there to support it.” [65:11]
• WWII Soviet Sacrifice: The hosts discuss which country sacrificed most in WWII, with Elizabeth emphasizing the Soviets’ loss of “27 million” and elite U.S. figures (Prescott Bush, Allen Dulles) funding Hitler.
• Quote: "Sit on that for a second how that feels and then be pissed. You would be pissed." [94:23]

[104:00–131:00] Ukraine, US–Russia Relations, and Putin

• “Why Not Be Friends with Russia?” Elizabeth argues U.S. foreign policy missed opportunities to ally with Russia post-1991. She emphasizes that antagonizing Russia serves only the elites, not U.S. interests.
• On Putin:
  • Elizabeth offers a robust defense, crediting him for pulling Russia out of chaos after the Yeltsin years and for having genuine support among the Russian people.
  • Julian interrogates Putin’s record: changing the constitution, “blowing up his own apartment buildings,” and the killing of dissidents.
  • Chechen Conflict: Elizabeth frames Putin’s harshness (including alleged false flag bombings) as necessary to preserve national unity in the face of real threats and Western-sponsored separatism.
  • On Successors: Elizabeth expresses concern there is no clear, moderate heir after Putin.
  • Quote: "Putin had huge restraint for almost seven years... exercised huge restraint against us." [126:37]
• Critique of U.S. Hypocrisy: She is critical of the U.S. labeling Putin a dictator, when U.S. policy often props up dictators elsewhere.

[142:00–177:30] The Charlie Kirk Case: Courtroom Details & Theories

• Elizabeth on Covering the Case:
  • Attended Tyler Robinson’s hearing, noted striking lack of media/public presence: "Maybe 20 people there. That’s it. Journalists." [142:54]
  • Highly unusual courtroom security (no phones, strangely strict).
  • Robinson’s demeanor: “Like a zombie.”
  • Robison’s father and alleged lies: “The dad really screwed his son over, in my opinion. [...] What is he winning with that?” [151:14–153:02]
• Lingering Questions:
  • Skepticism about official narrative (e.g., 3006 bullet trajectories, lack of transparent autopsy, odd behavior and stories from people involved).
  • Frustration with government/media obfuscation and rapid destruction of the physical crime scene.
  • Quote: "If people play their cards right on this one, this might be the, the one and original case scenario where people can solve this case." [165:18]
  • Julian: "We deserve to know the truth... but it is, it is. This one was just, it was particularly spooky for me." [166:34]

[168:20–177:30] Charlie Kirk’s Death, Political Manipulation & Cultural Division

• Who Gained from Kirk’s Death? Elizabeth lists possible motives:
  • Silencing a "unifier"
  • Shifting the Israel/Palestine narrative
• Netanyahu's PR Mistake: Both hosts criticize attempts by Israeli leadership to appropriate Kirk's image posthumously.
• Charlie's Motivations: Julian recounts a Dave Smith anecdote—Kirk admitted supporting Israel more for religious than political reasons.
• Call for Nuance: Both urge skepticism toward all narratives (including the reactionary backlash now common in internet discourse).
• Social Media/Online Division: Julian warns of the dangers of polarization, misinformation, and leaders making reckless statements online (referencing Elon Musk on British civil war).

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "The government I can vote in, vote out, and I can impeach. I cannot vote in or vote out a CEO... or even convince people not to buy a certain brand." —Elizabeth Lane [24:00]
• "We are the number one terrorist of the world. No doubt about that." —Elizabeth Lane [37:28]
• "He was the only president who ever mentioned secret societies and how there is no place for them in a free country and free world." —Elizabeth Lane (re: JFK) [49:18]
• "My biggest argument... every country in the world, including rivals, would have had reason to try to disprove [the moon landing] because it was such an achievement." —Julian Dorey [51:12]
• "Sit on that for a second, how that feels and then be pissed. You would be pissed." —Elizabeth Lane (about Soviets learning US elites funded Hitler) [94:23]
• "Putin had huge restraint for almost seven years... exercised huge restraint against us." —Elizabeth Lane [126:37]
• "If people play their cards right on this one, this might be the... case scenario where people can solve this case." —Elizabeth Lane (on Charlie Kirk’s murder) [165:18]
• "Divided society is a compliant society." —Julian Dorey [168:41]

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Memorable Moments

• Tense Back-and-Forth: Multiple sections where Julian stops to clarify or challenge Elizabeth's major claims, especially regarding Russian history and the moon landing.
• Elizabeth details Bolsheviks’ Western ties: "Read the book Bolshevik Revolution and Wall Street by Anthony Sutton..." [60:12]
• Analogy Game: Both host and guest use analogies (“rolling a ball in a room,” sports teams, chess pieces) to wrestle with abstract ideas like geopolitical power and propaganda.
• Dark Humor & Self-Reflection: Julian jokes about his own performance—"This has not been a good day for me." [00:00, 134:57]
• Inside Look at Courtroom Reporting: Elizabeth provides ground-level insights from the Tyler Robinson hearing, including commentary on psychological states of those involved.

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Tone and Style

• Candid, Fiery, and Unfiltered: The conversation is highly direct and at times combative, but not personal. Both host and guest are comfortable with sharp disagreement.
• Conspiratorial, Yet Analytical: Elizabeth offers insider-ish, skeptical takes; Julian acts as skeptic and devil’s advocate, preventing the conversation from devolving into unchecked speculation.
• Nuanced Concluding Note: Both ultimately agree that “taking sides” and accepting black-and-white narratives is a path to destruction—and that real answers require both courage and humility.

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Key Takeaways

• History and Power Are Never Simple: Much of what’s accepted about the 20th century, especially with respect to Russia/Soviet Union, is more nuanced than mainstream narratives suggest.
• Beware of Both Government and Corporate Concentrations of Power: Both can be destructive; striking a fair balance is increasingly difficult.
• The Public Is Too Quick to Accept Binary Narratives: Both anti- and pro-establishment “psyops” are polarizing society, which benefits neither regular citizens nor meaningful democracy.
• Charlie Kirk’s Death Is a Watershed Moment: The lack of transparency, the rapid narrative-setting, and the hurried erasure of evidence are troubling, and symbolize the eroding trust in American institutions.
• America Must Earn Its Place: Self-examination, not resting on laurels, is essential if the country is to maintain its reputation and ideals amid mounting evidence of hypocrisy and internal rot.

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Suggested Listening Segments

• [09:41] Elizabeth defines corporate fascism vs. communism.
• [24:00] The case for why government can be more accountable than corporations.
• [42:50] The mechanics of US foreign regime change from a Georgian example.
• [49:18] JFK and secret societies.
• [57:41] Dismantling Soviet “myths”—Trotsky and Lenin’s Western ties.
• [116:02] Defending Putin’s leadership, Russian popular support, and the Chechen wars.
• [142:18] Inside the Tyler Robinson hearing after Charlie Kirk’s assassination.
• [168:41] How Kirk’s death fractured the right and the establishment’s narrative control.

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Final Thoughts & Calls to Action

Elizabeth Lane, though at times conspiratorial, demands seriousness in confronting the buried hypocrisies and geopolitical games of the modern West. Julian Dorey, skeptical yet open, pushes for clarity and nuance. Together, they personify an approach sorely missing in the hot-take internet era:

"Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace." —Julian Dorey [178:32]

Transcript

[A]

I think. I think today. And by the way, I think, Elizabeth, I just want to respond to some of this because there's a. There's a lot you just put out there. I think today in this discussion so far, however far we are in, you know, maybe like an hour, 50 minutes or something, I think that I'm gonna look at this tape and see a ton of mistakes in how. How to handle certain things that I have made on my end. This has not been a good day for me. But that's not your fault. That's my fault.

[B]

I think it was an amazing day for you. Talking about.

[A]

I. I don't. I don't. I. I think there's. I think there were a couple times where I jumped the gun on your argument that wasn't fair to you. And I also think there were multiple times where there are hypocrisies within my own country that I know in my head that I didn't lead with out front that should be led with. So that if you're going to make a point, you don't throw a stone from a glass house. And I'm. Are going to let me hear it on that. And I understand that. Basically just had like a movie happen behind the scenes with that whole story. I wish we could tell that on air one day.

[B]

One day?

[A]

How? Like one day, like tomorrow, next week?

[B]

What about. What's a. One person's lifespan? Like 60 or 70?

[A]

All right, that's not gonna work. That sounded like a, you know, Steven Spielberg movie going on there.

[B]

But one day, it's just, you know, the. The consequences. Right. Like, you say something and it's not a up to me. I mean, I can say it, like right now, but then other people are involved, so their lives will be in danger.

[A]

Oh, you understand. Worried about the other end of it. I got you.

[B]

Yeah, not me. Like, I don't care about. Like, I did nothing wrong.

[A]

Right. And you're here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So that works.

[B]

So for him.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It will be. Not a good case.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Long journey home.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

I gotcha. People don't know what we're talking about.

[B]

That's okay.

[A]

But Elizabeth Lane, it's great to have you here.

[B]

Thank you for inviting me.

[A]

Of course. You have mutual friend John Kiriakou. So John's guy Simon had hit me up and I was like, yeah, seen. This is a girl's going to the Charlie Kurt shooter trial, like, actually, like in the courthouse and stuff. So I'm like, I would love to talk with you about that today, but you Cover a whole lot of stuff. I'm sure we'll get into it with all that. But you're from the country. Georgia. Like, not Atlanta, Georgia.

[B]

I always say I'm from the US But I was born in Georgia.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you.

[A]

You really. You don't fuck with Georgia anymore.

[B]

I love the country. It's just. It's not my country anymore, you know, so. And I would like to see this happen more. The US when people have double citizenships and they have double loyalties and so on, like, pick one country and be loyal to them.

[A]

Well, you've lived that. So, yeah, I mean, you have credibility to say that for sure. Is. Did you feel. Well, let's start here. You're born in Georgia.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Not from there, but. That sounds like a bit of a cop out, but, you know, whatever.

[B]

No, I mean, you can say I'm from Georgia. I'm proud of Georgians. Like, it's a great country. It's a Asian country. Second Christian country in the world. Right. So people don't know that. They are predominantly Christian. They are very similar to Russian in a way. In a way. But they are not Slavs. So it's a great country. It is truly a great country. They share a lot with Americans. They, you know, love to freedom and constitution and all of that. They share that with the American people. But it just never was my culture. So I was born there. I moved to the U.S. i found my people, my country home. So this.

[A]

How old were you when you came.

[B]

To the U.S. i think the first time I moved. Well, first time I visited us, I think I was 17.

[A]

Okay, so you spent your whole childhood in Georgia?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I spent my childhood high school in Georgia and so on. So I know a lot about the country.

[A]

Why did you come to the US to visit the first time?

[B]

First time it was through. It's so funny. Well, first time I went through UN Conference, I think it was like, about. They got like these bright kids in school to do this UN Conference. So that was my first visit to the United States. And as I recall, it might have been earlier than that, but. Yeah. So UN Conference, because I was always interested in politics. I did a radio show back home. So.

[A]

As a teenager.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was the radio show about? Politics?

[B]

No. Radio show was like cheesy, weird stuff, like just talking about relationships and, you know, things like that. But my interest was always politics. Even when I was acting, I acted like all throughout my childhood.

[A]

Oh, you were acting as a child?

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

So did you have, like Hollywood dreams.

[B]

Or Yes, I did, actually. It's funny. Like, everyone asks me, like, did you move because of Hollywood? And I kind of give into it and say, sure, yes, I did. But reality is, no. I actually moved for a completely different reason, which sounds stupid and funny, but when you think about it, it's not really stupid and funny. So in high school, I got an assignment, okay? So I was supposed to pick a president, any president, or a leader of the country that I thought did something exceptional, and then write about his character, like what he left, his legacy and so on. And I was like, okay, I don't know who to pick, right? So I'm going through, like, who would I. Like, I thought about maybe Alexander the Great. I mean, he's still a L or Greek. I stopped at Kennedy.

[A]

Yeah. I knew where that was going, right?

[B]

And I was, like, going through his life, listening to every speech that I could find.

[A]

Pull that mic in just a little bit, Elizabeth.

[B]

You're good. So going through, like, everything that I could find about this guy. I mean, ask me anything about Kennedy's. I can tell you everything. Like their villa, Hickory Hill, that they used to, like, gather and play football. And I know everything, right. I fell in love with the ideologies this man had. And I was like, whatever this guy is about, I want to be part of. And that was when I decided I want to be part of the United States and everything it is about. Unfortunately, we are no longer about those things, but I believe we can go back to it.

[A]

I think some people in power are no longer about those.

[B]

True, very true.

[A]

A lot of people here are about those things. What types of. On a broad 30,000 foot kind of view, though, what types of ideologies about Kennedy specifically stood out to you?

[B]

I think first and foremost, he was for people. He believed that you can give power to people and they can determine what the course of the country should be, which is actually opposite of what elites believe. Right? Like, they believe that, no, you gotta be controlled. We have to. Like what Larry Fink said was force the behavior. Remember that? So I don't believe that. I also don't believe in full democracy. It didn't work out, obviously, for Greeks. Right. I believe that it can be somewhat of a hybrid or it can just be what America was based on when founding fathers got together and figured out, okay, so maybe the best model is the model that we are creating here for people to kind of have a say in what they want to be and how they want to be by giving them freedom of speech, by giving them Freedom of religion, all of that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But at the same time, America is a kind of a bureaucracy. Right. So bureaucracy is not full freedom. It cannot possibly be. So I think that's a great hybrid. It just. We need to stick with it without becoming corporate fascists, which we have became.

[A]

Meaning, if I'm understanding this correctly, where it remains or should remain purely like a mix of democratic and republic principles.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Okay, got you.

[B]

Well, what do you think?

[A]

I would agree with. With that, the way I just put it. I want to make sure I unpack.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What you said later on, some of that, because there was a lot there. But the idea that, like, you have a mix of the, like pure democracy is where technically every single thing ever is voted on. You can't take a shit without a decision being made that obviously wouldn't be possible to have. But when you have people making a decision on your behalf, and I'm getting a little beyond democracy and republic, pure definitions here, but like when you have people that you select democratically to make some decisions on your behalf that are in line with what you elect, which is mostly supposed to work and hasn't worked out very recently, but you know, that in that system, to me, is a pure system. To your point, I think we have had a bastardization of it. And I think the last thing you said is actually a really important part, which is that you have, you know, this kind of corporate matrix where one feeds the other. I've always. I brought this up. I'd love to get your thoughts on.

[B]

This, but I call it corporate fascism. And I hear. And tell me what you think about this too, because I hear us is becoming commie. Communist. Commie. Commie. Commie. Like, no, it's not. It's becoming fascist. It's absolutely becoming fascist. And there's a huge distinction between these two. And from someone who comes from a commie country, which was Georgia. Right. We were communists, much like Russians. Like, I can recognize the signs that it's not communism, it is fascism that we are becoming. Which is more dangerous, in my opinion.

[A]

What are those signs?

[B]

Like, for example, what's the difference between communism and fascism? We don't have to go like far in deep to it. But do you own your house when you buy it in the US you kind of do. Right. It's your property, but at the same.

[A]

Time, you pay off your mortgage.

[B]

Yeah, but you're dependent to even have that house. You're kind of dependent on all these payments. And you're paying to who? Who are you paying to the Government, necessarily. No, you're paying to a bank, right? So you have corporate elites, they're eating you up, which is like pretty much what fascism is like corporate elites getting together, deciding what's good for what. The state. Right. You don't have that in communism. You can have whatever you want for free, but it doesn't belong to you.

[A]

The state in this case is playing the. The corporate. Yeah, Like China is a good.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. So in. In communism, like, my grandma and I grew up more with my grandma than my parents. Like, that's another story. She.

[A]

Other stories with Elizabeth, she says a whole nother one.

[B]

So the thing is, when I was even like, as I remember myself, like five year old, right. I wouldn't go to bed without a story. Like, yeah, like I was like, you know, staying at my grandma's. Tell me a story, tell me a story. And she was like up here, like, with the stories, but she would tell me these, like, stories from her life, right? So. Which was like, fascinating. And she lived communism, so she knew what it was like. She lived during Khrushchev. She remembered Stalin as a kid. Like, she remembered all of that stuff. So I was like, tell me a story, tell me a story. And I gathered so many stories so I know, like, what life looked like in communism and in Soviet Union, even though I was never part of it, because when I was born, it kind of got dismantled. Right. In 1991 with Gorbachev and all that. That we can talk about as well. Freaking idiot Gorbachev. So.

[A]

And the man who took down the.

[B]

Wall, he was a complete.

[A]

Took down the wall.

[B]

So. And caused what? Caused us to end up exactly where we are today. We can talk about that.

[A]

I think that was more Yeltsin, but go ahead.

[B]

Well, yes and no. Yes and no. Gorbachev bought into Western promises. It was Gorbachev who was promised that NATO would not advance an inch. So who promised exactly. The same people that were pretty much controlling the CIA, the same elites. What was Baker and Bush. Bush was not a CIA puppet. Not a puppet, but a director. Yeah. He was the CIA. His entire family crafted this agency. You know this really well. Exactly. And the CIA agent tells you that NATO would not advance, and you believe him and you like, make your 20 year plans in the future according to what he says to you. Are you stupid? Like, you know what I mean?

[A]

I see what you're saying. Yeah. Like, who knows if he actually believed all of it though, because unfortunately with the politicians and this is just how it is, for better or worse, usually Worse. It's one thing what they tell us and it's another thing what they say behind the scenes.

[B]

But he acted as if he did, right?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So he. He put down the wall, he allowed the unification and then he continued the course as if he believed. I don't know if he actually believed or not, but look at his actions. That's how. I don't care what you say to me if you are doing the opposite. Right. So your actions speak louder than your words. And seems to me that Gorbachev actually believed in it and Yeltsin became a puppet, which we talk about too. Yeltsin was such a big puppet of the west that I don't think I've ever seen Russian president more dependent on the elites and what.

[A]

Yeah, he was dependent on something. That man for eight years was. Was never sober. Never can tell you that.

[B]

Have you seen that clip when he almost like felt he's like standing and like randomly just like almost falls and sit.

[A]

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[B]

So crazy. Clinton, like, who was a chameleon. I've had. What was his name? Gary Burns. I think he wrote a book about it. Former Secret Service agent. Like, he said this guy was a pathological liar.

[A]

Yeah, no shit show.

[B]

Yeah. And he was so good at it. He said that if Bill Clinton told me my name was not Gary, I would actually pull up the card to see if it was.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Like, that's Bill, Clint. And now pair that with the. The drunk, you know, Yeltsin, who's like, oh, Wes. Like, wow, we are friends. Like, what are you talking about? So, yeah, they totally bought it.

[A]

Yeah. Clinton is one of those guys. And I've heard from people that have met him over the years that who didn't like him at all, hated him, but then they met him and they're like, you can't.

[B]

Yeah, you're such a nice guy. What the.

[A]

I don't believe any of that stuff they say about you. Like, they go. Even if they're like, I'm talking. Some dudes I've talked to who are like the hardest core Republicans who hated him back then or whatever. And then they'd meet him and they're like, God damn it, he's a good time. You know something about that guy. I don't know.

[B]

He's very good. Like, he's very good. I think that's part of the reason why Bush kind of like put him under his wing. Right. This is where people don't connect the dots. Like, you understand he was a governor of Arkansas. Right. The CIA's drug operation.

[A]

Right. Where Amina was.

[B]

Right. Exactly. Barry Seal and all of that. And all of a sudden, I think Clinton, number one was too charming. And second, he was just a good little boy for the CIA. And then he becomes the president, and even though he's Democrat, by the way, which you would think that a Republican like Bush would not like someone like Bill Clinton. Right. Yet he said what? Like, he's like my. He said like, he's like my son or something like that. Really? I wonder how that went down. Like, how. What did he do?

[A]

They all go to the same steakhouses on K Street. It's. It's a giant. Like, George Carlin said it best. And it gets truer every Day, it's a giant club, and you're not.

[B]

You're not part of it, you know? Yeah.

[A]

And you see people go in there, you know, whether it be a congressman or a senator, you know, even. Even with Trump, like, as president, who may come in and they may seem like more of an outsider or whatever, and then you see the kind of system.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Swallow them up. But we got into this because we were talking about communism and fascism. I don't want to get off that, because it's an interesting point. Yeah, you're. You're absolutely correct, by the way, in the clear distinctions and how they carry things out.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I overgeneralize in the past and purposely so. I'm okay with it, because what they do both have in common is that they're both totalitarian. They both. They both seize control. So I've always looked at it like communists hate fascists. That's. That's a historical thing. But they hate each other because they see each other in themselves. Even if it's like you do it with this or you do it with that.

[B]

It's also competition. Right. Like, they both want to be on top. And it's like. Well, they are in competition, and they're exactly alike in terms of what they see the future should look like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it's scary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I always thought, honestly, that fascism was more scary than communism, because communism. Here's the problem with communism. It will destroy itself. You know, it will. It will get to the point where it will eradicate itself. And that's what happened with Soviet Union. It was not American propaganda. It was. It was. It imploded from the inside. Because communism does not work. It doesn't work unless it's a. Yeah.

[A]

Question on that. So you don't think. Because that would be the propaganda I'd be okay with. If you're trying to, like, stop communism or something without, you know, overthrowing governments and killing millions of people, you don't think there was some sort of, like, messaging that the United States was able to get in there to push people?

[B]

Messaging? Well, yes and no. So messaging was always there. But I mean, you know, communism did not break down because of American messaging or because of CIA's hard work or something. It broke down because Russian people were never naturally designed to be a communist, and neither were Georgians. Like I said, how did I start with. With when I explained what Georgia was. They are freedom lovers. If you knew Georgian past. I mean, these guys are like, this big. Okay. Like in Caucasian Mountain, by the way, word. Caucasian Comes from my people, like Caucasian mountains. What is that? Where is that? In Georgia. So Caucasian comes from the word itself, from Georgia. So these people managed to survive, like, through centuries and centuries of wars and invasions. And, like, people are shocked. How are you a nation still? How well, you're telling these people that now they're gonna bow down to communism, like. Wrong crowd, bro.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, so that's what imploded Communists. But by itself, it's a faulty ideology. Right. It's not gonna last. Now, fascism is a little bit of a different case.

[A]

Yeah. Why?

[B]

Like, it allows elites to flourish. And it's not about one dictator like Stalin or, you know, XI or whatever. Like, it allows multiple devils and multiple heads on one dragon. Right. And it's. It's really hard to fight. I mean, look at. Look at what's going on here. You have a corporate. Like in. In America, we have a corporate fascism. Tell me exactly who rules BlackRock or Vanguard? Can you tell me all the names? Can you tell me the shadowy people behind. No, you can't. You can tell me that. You know. Yeah, well, CIA Director. CIA Director knows nothing. What does CIA Director know? Well, take Kennedy's case. Kennedy changed the CIA Director. He kicked out Alan Dallas. They killed him anyway.

[A]

Right. Alan did it for Ms. George.

[B]

Exactly. Because he had loyal goons at the CIA that even Director didn't know about.

[A]

That's right. So Director is a political appointee.

[B]

Thank you. And the President here is a four year employee. There you go. So that's why it's more dangerous. And that's why Prescott, dear Prescott. Bush almost overthrew Roosevelt in something called the Plot. I'm sure you've heard of it, right? When they tried to overthrow Roosevelt. For what? Fascism. Dictatorship in America. That's right, because he knew fascists can last.

[A]

You talking about the Smedley?

[B]

Smedley Butler. Yes, I'm. I'm here with intellectuals, guys. I don't get this often. Well, okay.

[A]

I appreciate you calling me an intellectual. That's one from New Jersey. Put that on the board right there. We got that on tape, right? Brent? God damn it. That's the one time you're supposed to be rolling. We got Brent in the studio today doing a little behind the scenes, but. Yeah. So one of the things I've always talked about, it's just interesting to hear you have it where it's like communism and fascism. Fashion fascisms, where the corporates control communism, where the government controls.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But the same question of, like, the balance, right, exists here in America. And I've always brought this up because it's a really tough answer where it's like the buck is always going to stop more somewhere. It's just the nature of, like, physics. When you roll a ball in a room, the room's never perfectly flat, so one side is going to lean more towards. And it's like. I think communism and fascism are amazing examples as to why you don't want the buck stopping with the government, but you also don't want the buck stopping with the quote, unquote, free market, because then it becomes very not free.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Right. So how do you, how do you find that equilibrium in America where, okay, both of these things have to exist. Okay. There's powerful people in both. There will always be some aspect of that, but at least like the, the people, the 99% of us are represented.

[B]

Right. Well, I mean, you're asking a very tough question. I know, and it's really hard to answer because I always thought. I don't know what exactly like, your thoughts are when it gets to corporate or government. Right. I actually thought. I think Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that corporate should have more power. I actually thought that. No, I think it should be government. And I'll tell you why I think that. Because government I can vote in, vote out, and I can impeach. I cannot vote in or vote out a CEO or a shareholder or I cannot impeach them. What I cannot even do is convince people not to buy a certain brand. They will still go for it when. When there's like, you know what I mean? Like there's need for it. And you saw what happened with the. What was that company that was in hot waters recently for like, child trafficking? Cracker Barrel. Oh, like, sorry, Cracker Barrel.

[A]

That wasn't word I thought that was.

[B]

Anyway, the point is the, the. I don't remember exactly which company was. But they got in hot waters and their sales. Yeah. Were affected like a month or so. And that's it.

[A]

Right, for child trafficking.

[B]

Yeah, something like that. Like either child or sex trafficking. It does. Anyway, the point.

[A]

It's just like a company. Can we pull up who that was?

[B]

Like, I think. Was it Wayfair?

[A]

That's what I was saying. It was a Balenciaga.

[B]

Wayfair. Wayfair, I think.

[A]

Shipping kids.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, come on.

[B]

I don't know if that's true, but like, I'm giving, like examples, so it's not true.

[A]

Yeah, it was bad pr. Oh, I'll bet it was bad pr. I didn't hear about that.

[B]

So like, so what happened is this, something like this goes out, right? And it still didn't really affect them. Do you understand what I'm saying? And like Amazon, everyone knows that Amazon's employees are working like, you know, slaves.

[A]

Pretty much because they can't take a bath.

[B]

There you go. Thank you. So what, that stopped Amazon sales. Like people got all of a sudden very, you know, honorable and said, we're not going to buy from Amazon anymore. No. So you can't fight corporate world in any way. You can't vote them out. You can vote them in. You cannot convince people not to buy from them. You can't do that. But what you can do is you can vote in a senator, sorry, Congressman, you can vote for your government in or out, right? Like you can change these people. You can impeach a president because you have good guys that you voted for. Like there you have some power. But what power do you have in a corporate world?

[A]

I agree with the corporate world part. It just becomes tough on the other end because the corporates pay the politicians that you vote in.

[B]

Good point. Well, then you start freaking lobbying. Stop freaking lobbying. Like you stop lobbying like that there. And this just, I, I just never could rip my head around. Why is lobbying allowed and why is foreign lobbying allowed at all? Like, it's, it's crazy to me. So stop doing that. And you have cleaner version of your government. And then the government can regulate the corporate world. You know, you, you can. What was it? I guess what we are trying to say here, if it's a hybrid of government power and corporate world, then it can work. But if one has more power than the other, it won't.

[A]

Yeah, you're talking about equilibrium.

[B]

Yeah, but how do you get to that equilibrium? You certainly don't get to it by brainwashing American people to take government's powers away. Because that's what corporate world war wants, right? Like that's exactly what they want. Then they are unregulated. Now after this crazy guy, Luigi Mangione killed this guy, the CEO, right now they started this narrative, well, we should hide all the names of corporate CEOs and all that. Now you can't even get to them and know exactly who they are. Okay, like, how is that good? How is that good? You can lose that battle.

[A]

It's, it's not, it's.

[B]

It.

[A]

This is where, you know, I, I'm, I'm an optimist with things. I think we work through things. That doesn't mean you don't have bad times and, and you can't recognize that though. And, and this is where I look at this certain fragility that we have in society now, where it scares me a little bit because there is such a gap and let's, let's call it what it is. What underlies everything we're talking about, right, is the American dream and to be more specific, economic opportunity. Now both still exist in this country, but we can all read charts and you look since the early 1980s, the chart is absolutely clear as day. You see it go like this.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

To where you have a smaller and smaller class that has more and more money and the middle class of America, which is where the American dream of like, you know, suburban life, family, white picket fence and a dog and everyone dies happy and doesn't have to worry about their retirement. That's where that lives. That has shrunk more and more and more. And there's a million factors that go into that. But I think what that does to society, of course, is it takes away hope, it generates anger, and it also then can feed on fear. And we are seeing all of those things come together right now to the point that, you know, I don't like the health care system at all. I think it's horrible. By the way, they pay off the whole government too. So I think it's, it's despicable in a lot of ways. It's a group think problem when you then suddenly have a part of society saying, therefore a rando can rent a city bike, drive down 57th street and mark a guy at 6am in the street in New York because of the job position he has. The pre. I understand your anger at the industry. Don't disagree with that. The precedent of that and the fact that so many people are like, yeah, that's fine. That's a little scary to me.

[B]

That's very scary. Like it's the. Again, the problem is in people themselves. Yeah, but they, these people have been brainwashed. By who?

[A]

The corporations?

[B]

Yeah. And the CIA. Why do we call this military industrial. I would add intelligence complex, like from the, the days of TV and radio. That's what they've been preached like. They've been brainwashed. So you can't expect. And above that they are too busy. So that goes back to like, do we really have the economy, economic opportunity as we think we do in this country? That's another question. Right, because like compare it compared to who? Because the most important thing we need to ask in life is compared to what? And compared to who? Because you can say I'm smarter than Elizabeth Lane. Okay, great, good comparison. But if you say I'm smart, like, compared to who? To Einstein or to me to someone else, like, maybe you're dumb compared to Einstein. Right, so that's what I'm saying. Like Americans think that they still got the best in this country of the, of the world, but that's not, that's not true. It's no longer true.

[A]

In what ways is that not true?

[B]

In many ways. There are countries that are much more developed than us. There are countries that are more developed. Yeah.

[A]

Like, are you talking about like architecture and infrastructure in any way?

[B]

Like, excuse me, like, take the US and United Arab Empire and Dubai. What are you talking about when you. Infrastructure. Like, have you been outside in New York? Like, you would get, you would get a heart attack and we. New York's supposed to be the skyscrapers and all the, you know, because certainly I don't have that in Utah. So. Yeah, like, more developed in what way? So is your healthcare system in top 20? No. Okay, then education. What about that? No, I can argue that even, like I travel a lot, okay. I travel all the time. So travel is needed to understand what's really going on in other countries as well. I could argue that there are countries there that even with like day to day lives are happier, more well taken care of, whether it gets, gets to your income, you know, maternity, fraternity leave or whatever. So then the question becomes, are we like, why are we still stating that we are the best? Like, is that like a, an illusion of some sorts? Like, is that a, like I want to be the best so I'm like gonna talk about it, it's gonna happen. Or like, what, what is that? That?

[A]

I think it's an overall average because the things you say right there, like I said, we have a lot of problems right now and I think if people rest on those laurels, that's why it's good for you to point that out. Our education system, our healthcare system, our.

[B]

Infrastructure, it's not the only one.

[A]

These are absolutely, these are all true. When you take the average of everything, even if the world is kind of a piece of right now, overall, I think people could very well make the argument that America is still the best on top of the pile of. And obviously that's a very pessimistic, cynical way of putting it, but you understand what I'm saying right there? It's like a friend, A friend. I, I'll use an example of a friend of mine. Raj Rajaratna Okay. He was an immigrant. He's from Sri Lanka. Came to this country.

[B]

To Sri Lanka. Yes. I. I would agree.

[A]

Well, yeah, yeah. But like, meaning he came here when he was young.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Highly educated, became. Became one of the five greatest investors in the world. Long story short, was given the longest insider trading penalty in American history at the time in 2011, in what I believe now was. Was a trial where the deck was completely stacked against him, which is not a popular take to have, like, oh, this billionaire was actually innocent. I actually believe he was. And what's amazing is once you learn every single thing that the government did to him and what happened to him, you know, he then spent. Ended up spending seven and a half years in prison before getting a home release. And you would think the guy still got billions of dollars, right? You would think he would throw his middle fingers up to the sky and be like. Like you, the system, all this stuff. And I'll never forget being in a meeting with him about three years ago, almost exactly where he was talking about the justice system and things. He wanted to improve in it. And putting his money where his mouth is, by the way, which I think is cool. But very unexpectedly, he goes, like. He was starting to get, like, a little emotional. He goes, you know what? This is the best country in the world. I'm so lucky to live here. I was so lucky to come here. I'm so lucky for my family to be here. There are things happening in the country that make me sad that we as p. As a people need to come together and fix. But there is a reason people don't go in droves to China or Russia all the time or some of these other countries where they don't have some of the base freedoms that we do. And so if I can fix some of those problems to make sure we still have that 20 years from now, then I will put my money where my mouth is and do that. And that always stuck with me because this is a man who's traveled the entire world, he's been to every country. He used to own half the Sri Lankan stock exchange. He knows every continent like the back of his hand. He spent two months in Africa just for the of it. And like, when I hear someone like that, having gone through the.

[B]

That he went through worst of. Of what say that he can overreact.

[A]

That's where I get the averages and I go, okay, healthc care, education, we got some serious issues there. But, like, when you look at it, overall, we're still better, but we should not rest on that laurels and assume that will be the case 10 years from now. And to your point, I think a lot of Americans, a lot of us, I've probably been guilty of it too in the past, sit there a little complacent, like, oh, we'll be fine, you know, it'll all work out. And then you don't look at history and see that every quote, unquote empire has fallen.

[B]

Exactly. I agree with that.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

And again, like you know I've heard, like I said, I've traveled a lot too and I think where it gets to why he thinks that way versus why a German who's like average worker thinks that no German is better, right? Is. I would argue right now, hell no. But like, I'm talking about like 10, 15 years ago, right? Like again, I think the US gives you the opportunity to be that 1% if you wanted to. Well, not if you wanted to, but you have the capability if you're a little bit sociopathic, if you're like, you know, if you got all the right things, like a cocktail, then. Then you can probably get there. Other countries cannot give you that. And I would argue the reason they can't give you that are, are partially our fault too in the us.

[A]

Well, how do you mean?

[B]

I mean, we, we overthrow and you know, the, the democratically elected leaders. We cause chaos in the world. Like, we are the number one terrorist of the world. No doubt about that. And the reason these countries are authoritarian is because they have to be. Because otherwise they're gonna go in a coup or a baton or something like that, you know, up there. I'm not gonna talk about what happened to certain people, but like, you know, like Gaddafi or others, right? And they know, and that's something that no one talks about. Like, I'll give you an. A quick example of country of Georgia. Country in Georgia is the most peaceful. Like, and I can talk about it because I'm from like. Like I said, I was born in Georgia. I know what it's about. Look at its history and tell me if they ever tried to conquer anyone, really ever.

[A]

Oh, ever tried to conquer.

[B]

Yeah. Conquer somebody. No. They are like. Like they've been conquered gazillion times. They won the wars. Like, you know, they lost the wars. Like, I mean, these people have been through everything really. It's fascinating, like how they are still alive, how they managed to like have the gene. They had like this coding, right? Like, without mixing it with a. Like, it's incredible. But here's what, what happened just recently. So we are using Ukraine as a proxy, right? Like, we are fighting through Ukraine this war with Russia so that we can weaken Russia and the usual warmonger that I'm so over with, awkward and tired. Then we have the CIA working really hard to overthrow Georgian government. Who says I'm not going to get into war? It's not my war. Leave me alone. They threatened the premier minister of Georgia. And this is like EU and the US and Brits, right? You know, remember what happened to feto? Feto got shot. Like, stay in line, bro, or you will be dead.

[A]

This is on record.

[B]

Yeah. He came out and says, they threatened to kill me. They. They told me, remember what happened to Fizzo? This is a country focused on Georgia. Like this government is focused on Georgia. They're like, we want to be great. We want to do all these good things. Like, you know, reforming education, all of that. What do you want, bro? Like, why do you want to cause a mess there? See, that's what we do. That's what we did in Latin America. Like what I, I killed Jose Rudolf or Uldos or something. Like, you know, we go in, we overthrow people. Like what happened to Mozaddak in Iran? Why kill a democratically elected leader that only wants to do good for his country? What's the deal?

[A]

Well, define good for his country.

[B]

Well, he wanted to nationalize stuff that that meant that it would be good for the country, like oil and other things. And we didn't nationalize it. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean that's like.

[B]

So, so here's what we do. Let me explain something.

[A]

Yeah, that would be fascist.

[B]

So when CIA goes into the countries, they do something called like they want to do privat privatization of the assets. Right. And they usually put it in the hands of very few people in the country. And the people that they can control. They did the same thing with Saakashvili in Georgia. Like 2003 Rose Revolution. So they own everything. Everything. Right. Well, how is that good for the country when it, you know, your biggest assets don't belong to people. How is that good for the country?

[A]

I see what you're saying. Yeah, but, but the opposite doesn't necessarily. That's not necessarily good either. Like I don't. So let me say.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Hold two thoughts at the same time. Imagine that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think the current Iranian regime is insane.

[B]

Who brought them on?

[A]

And, and a disaster.

[B]

Who brought them on?

[A]

Hold on. I also think we shouldn't be in any way going out of our way to start a war and overthrow their government, which is just playing right into the hands of the propaganda. That wouldn't then be propaganda because it'd be exactly what it looks like that would make people say, well, maybe this isn't so bad. If you really believe that something is wrong. And I do like the Iranian people don't like their government. I agree with them on that. They're going to have to over overthrow it themselves or do it.

[B]

Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. That's exactly what I'm trying to say here. But we don't allow that though. Here's the thing. We don't even overthrow per se, the dictatorial governments somehow the record is sometimes we do. But if you look at the record of the overthrows that we know about, there are probably plenty we don't know about. But the ones that we know about, I mean, most of them are people who just said, I'm not going to be your puppet. I'm going to do something for my country. Country. You, you might, might want to read a book called Economic. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So, like. But, but it's true, though. He's absolutely right. And how do you think that goes down in international politics? And here's what people don't understand. Everything you do in other countries backfires and comes back to you. Like, international policies are very much like a boomerang to our domestic policies. Right. I'll explain foreign countries. How do you think they lobby us into action? Like, tell me your opinion and then we can take it from there. Like, why do you think. Why do you think that other countries do have an effect on our Congress or Senate?

[A]

I would imagine if I'm being very broad with my answer, where it's economically feasible for us to continue our, you know, ability to wield power economically and therefore just in general around the world, then. Then, you know, we'll look at it, even if it's actually not going to help with that. We just.

[B]

So you're saying that, like, foreign countries lobby you to help me understand. Foreign countries lobby you to, like, keep, keep the power overseas. Like that.

[A]

They lobby you in a way that makes you think, oh.

[B]

You have power over us and we'll do whatever you want. Is that what it is?

[A]

No, no, no, no. Know, because I, There's a lot of different countries that could be used as an example for this in different context. What I'm trying is I, I want to be clear. So the people. I'm not convoluting people out here. I'm saying that we, our bureaucracy is so high on its own supply.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That when another country.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is every country around the world at some point asking for a favor.

[B]

Couldn't agree more.

[A]

Minus, you know, probably like, China and Russia. But like, like, when another country comes to us asking for a favor, we look at it like fresh meat. Like, ooh, what can we get out of that? And how can we actually, like, advance our economic interests around the world, even if that's not how it's going to end up going down? That's what I mean.

[B]

Right. I agree. So I can tell you one example. For example, just recently, again, like, I'm only using Georgia as an example because I know what's going on it's like one of my forte. Like my. My topics. I can use Russia, I can use Israel if you want. But Israel in Palestine was never my thing as a journalist, so I usually stay away, even though I have pretty strong opinions about that too. But recently country of Georgia put up this like news article and then they had like a, I think short segment in the Imedi tv, I think where they were saying that opposition party, which is Saakashvili, which was a puppet for the CIA, Sakashu National Party. We can talk about that too. Like, that guy is incredibly interesting. Like the guy who was involved in both Georgian revolution and then I would argue that he was a huge figure to what happened to Ukraine. Like a big player in that too. Now he's in prison, by the way, for the crimes he did with the CIA or without them, I don't care. But anyway, so they put up an article how this party transfers money to a firm in. In the US that lobbies Joe Wilson like to do whatever they want. So put up if you can go to my Axe account and there's an article about it. So. And then in return, let's.

[A]

Your ex account is wild. I'll read through it. I need to get a shower afterwards.

[B]

Oh, so like I can tell you I put this article up. I was like, they are so gonna come after me after this. I don't care. So go to articles or just go down and it's called.

[A]

When did you post?

[B]

It's way down. Go down.

[A]

Like September.

[B]

Yeah, I think so.

[A]

What was the article about?

[B]

I think it's called an agent. Or like it was about Joe Wilson and taking the money from this firm. Hold on. It's gonna be there, therefore an agent. Yeah, open that. So in here I explain. Yeah, I. In here I explain how the. The whole thing went down. What was the firm that got the money and then lobbied Joe Wilson to be like, pretty much like, say lies. Like Georgian government stopped building Trump Tower in Batumi. What never happened. Like, and. And the guy supports the people protesting in the streets against government. So people who want to overthrow the government, he supports them. And what they do, which is like they break. I mean they. They broke everything in the city. They went in and tried to like ambush. If I correctly recall, they tried to break into presidential residence. And this is Joe Wilson, the same dude who said, said to January 6 People, how dare you. Oh really, Joey? Because if it's against you that American people are coming forward, then you don't get to protest and you don't get to break in. But if it's Georgia, yeah, dude, like, go overthrow the government. Like, this is where they fail American people. These double standards that, yes, we fuel revolutions, yes, we overthrow other leaders, like, and then it backfires on us. And that's the tragedy of this country. We just don't get it. And I think the only president that actually got it was President Kennedy. And this is why he said, no. Like, it's just not gonna happen this way anymore. Like, we're not gonna be, you know, giving power to Israel. We're not gonna be, like, overthrowing people overseas. We're just not gonna do this shit anymore. And they killed him. As simple as that.

[A]

I do think it's very well established on record that basically everyone, ironically, with the exception of. Oh, my God, what the fuck was his name? The guy took over after Stalin.

[B]

Oh, Khrushchev.

[A]

Khrushchev, yeah. Pretty much everyone in the world, including in our own government, hated John F. Kennedy. And I do agree with you on many fronts that, you know, John F. Kennedy was a normal human. He had his own flaws as a human, but when it came to being a leader and an ideologue.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He had a lot of amazing ideas that today would be very hard to put him in a political box with. That which I really like about him. Like, he was very. There's no doubt about it that he was so, like, pro American standards, ironically, you know, a scion of, like, a. A family that probably got their wealth, real Gotten gains and everything. But, like, he found a way to kind of break away into his own lane and talk about crazy things like denuclearizing the world, you know, or maybe we shouldn't just overthrow governments because we can.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, these are just insane ideas.

[B]

Absolutely. And he was against the war. He was like. He talked. I think the first president. I don't know. We have to check first. And the only president who ever mentioned secret societies and how there is no place for secret societies in a free country and free world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, the only president.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. And I think Khrushchev called him the best president the US Ever had or something like that.

[A]

That's not helping his case, but. Yeah, I. I understand that because it was crazy. He did. He did. I'm saying, like, from a propaganda perspective, that's nova's case. But, you know, Khrushchev and him had that famous. This red line that they actually talked on, and they actually had some sort of. I wouldn't call it a. I mean, I. I wouldn't call It a friendship. But they had an understanding with each other where their relationship, even though their politics were obviously different, they didn't have a hatred for each other, which you know that. Sometimes I wonder how much that contributed to us not, not blowing up the world.

[B]

I agree. And we are there right now. And unfortunately, you know, I don't know. Like, see, this is, this is very interesting. Okay, so have you ever asked why are you like so hostile with Russians? Like, why, like you can see it as an American thing. Okay, what's up with that? Like, why can't we be friends with Russians? Because they, they are very similar to us white Christians. They want freedom. They understand freedom. They are very intelligent. Like when it gets to, you know, development, all of that. Like, I mean, they, they, they were the ones who went to space. We faked the moon landing and all that.

[A]

We did.

[B]

We did.

[A]

You think we did.

[B]

What if I told you a person who's very credible, very credible. I can't name the person, but I can, I can tell you behind the scenes told me that we faked the molendi who was like involved in the process thing.

[A]

I can't go with that.

[B]

Yeah, you can't. Unfortunately, I would agree with you.

[A]

Listen, listen, I'm open minded. I just, I. Sometimes it does feel like we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And because we see some things as evil in our government righteously, so we then have to say, you know what? All of it's a lie. There's not one thing we did. And for me, with the moon landing, my biggest argument against, against, against people saying we never did it. I'm not saying we definitely did, but every country in the world, including our closest allies, right. In many cases would have had a reason to try to disprove that we did that because it was such an achievement on the world stage that they would have been like, we want to do it first. And nobody did.

[B]

I, I would argue that they wouldn't give a.

[A]

Why, why wouldn't they give a.

[B]

Because going to the moon. Yeah, because here's the thing, like Soviets when they went in space, like, yeah, that was great. Like, that was really, really great. So, but why would achievement like that be a threat to them in any way, really? I mean, they can come back and say, so what? Good job, you landed on the moon. We went up in space. The first, the first dog, first human.

[A]

Like it's a big deal walking on another object that is not the earth.

[B]

It is a big deal, but I just don't see how It's a threat to them. Like, I just don't see it. To me, it would be great.

[A]

Like, it's a great piece of propaganda. It's an amazing piece of property.

[B]

It could be, I don't know, like, not. I guess I can't see it. I. I might be very subjective on that because I wouldn't be able to. Like, I would be okay. Another great achievement for human kind. Like, this is how I would look at it.

[A]

That's how I would look at it too. But you understand that's not how the. Is the Fed look at it.

[B]

Yes, it could be. It could be. It's just. Yeah, it's very hard to believe what they are showing as far as like moon landing go. And then you listen to people who have dissected the case and it's like, I don't know. But then I do trust the person that I talk to. So I don't know. Like, again, I don't know. But I think that this person is correct. So I don't know.

[A]

Well, that's the thing about that I always try to check myself with. Because my brain, not just the moon landing, but with anything my brain can go to. It's a lie about something immediately on pretty much everything. Because sometimes I wonder if Covid was. Obviously there were aspects of it that were a social experiment. But if part of the social experiment was, ooh, let's break people. Let's break them one way or the other. Either they defend everything and say it's all real, or they say nothing's real at all. You go from Rachel Maddow to Candace Owens, and there's no in between. Right. And so conspiracies are very real. There are many that have been proven. We have one in modern history right now that is the clearest as day thing I've ever seen in my life. In Epstein, I just had a guy here who tracked all the phones to the island. I mean, it's real.

[B]

It's real.

[A]

But then we have other ones that people will claim and it's not real. And what it does is it create, in my opinion, is it creates noise. So that if you believe these 10 things, one of them is a hundred percent real and it's bad. Yeah, the people that are in charge of that thing can go, oh, you're gonna listen to them. Look at the other nine things they believe.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And I try to be so careful with that. And what I like about my show like in doing this is that I can have on given issues, a perspective of of you here, and then I can have my friend David Satter here, and you guys have some very different opinions. You both have something in common. You've both been on the ground right over there and seen this stuff and understand what it is, and you just have wildly different perspectives. My job isn't to be like, David, you're 100, right? Or, Elizabeth, you're 100 right? My job is to push back on some things, let you talk on a lot of other stuff, and let everyone else out there kind of decide for themselves and land there. And I would hope that, like, the nuance gets infected where they go, you know, I don't agree with David on that. He made a terrible case. You know what, Elizabeth? Her case on this was good. Her case on that was not good, maybe. You know what I mean?

[B]

And that's exactly what every podcaster, journalist, talk show host should do. Like, let people decide if the case was made here. You know, I. I think that's the right way to do it. And I agree with you on a conspiracy theory stuff. Like, it's crazy. I mean, the flat earth and this, like, stupid stuff, But I think that's exactly why it's there. I think you're right. You said something that I always say, like, when I start investigating the case, I look at the case and I'm like, okay, what's noise and what's a real thing here? Right? Like, that noise allows people to get, like, completely. I guess they become, you know. How do I say this? Not lost kind of, but almost like delusional. You know what I mean? And that's exactly what certain forces I would say would want. Because you're delusional. You're not, you know, cohesive. You're. You can't make right decisions. You are absolutely all over the place. And, you know, people are people. There are still people who are on the opposite side of things, too. Like, for example, there are people who believe that Kennedy was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald. Right. To me, they are a special case. They should be, you know, they should be a study case somewhere. Like, it's. It's crazy, but.

[A]

But yeah, bullets are magic. I don't know if you knew that.

[B]

Right, of course.

[A]

Yeah, they can really.

[B]

We've proven that with everything. We've proven that with Kennedy. We've proven that with Charlie Kirk. We've proven that with everybody. Right? Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, it just bothers me, like, how much misinformation there is, like, when it gets to the whole, like, Russia, Ukraine, war, and whole you know, in the Soviet Union itself, though, like, that's another really, like, tough case.

[A]

Well, let's unpack that. What. What. What's.

[B]

Basically.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. What do. What do you think is like the. The main calling cards of, like, we're wrong about this?

[B]

Everything.

[A]

Every. The whole thing.

[B]

The whole thing.

[A]

The whole thing. So they were fascist, not communist even?

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. I mean, obviously they were communists, right? Yeah, of course. I mean, yes, of course. Like I'm talking about. They were communists. They were authoritarian. Okay. But I feel like most Americans see it as like, communism is like, one thing, right? I. I'm sure you see it too. If I said, like, what was communist? Like, explain to me what was communist communism in. In Soviet Union. Explain Soviet Union as an American to me for, like.

[A]

You want me to do that?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay. So we already established it was where the government took control of all privatized.

[B]

What government? What government? Government. What government?

[A]

The people in charge of the communist government.

[B]

Who?

[A]

The revolutionaries.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Who?

[B]

Well, well, they changed multiple times.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So how many leaders of communism party and in general Soviet Union do you know? How many leaders.

[A]

So it's. So it started. It started with the original revolutionaries. Trotsky.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then you went to Stalin. Stalin started the program. And hello to more as Andy.

[B]

Okay, so.

[A]

And then you had him till 53. Khrushchev comes in in 53. After Khrushchev, who the was in there?

[B]

So. So you know more than most. Okay, yeah. So. All right, let's have.

[A]

Obviously.

[B]

So let's unpack that. Who was Trotsky? Where. Where did he come from? Let me. Let me break the Soviet myth for you real quick.

[A]

The Soviet myth?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, Break it.

[B]

Who was Trotsky? Where. Where was he living before he became this amazing revolutionary who somehow took down Mexico?

[A]

No, he ended up in Mexico.

[B]

He got shot. He got killed. So who was. Where was Trotsky? You know? You want to know where he was?

[A]

He wasn't in Georgia, was he?

[B]

He was here in New York.

[A]

Oh, he's in New York.

[B]

Yes, he was here in New York. Isn't that shocking? You know, not really. You know what? Really. You know what else he was doing in New York? So Trotsky was in New York, and he was somehow able to have a chauffeur, like a private driver refrigerator. That was a luxury back in the day. And all this, like, very well off, like, you know, style items for a person that wrote for a miniscule, weird newspaper once in a while that no One read like, doesn't that strike you all?

[A]

So you're saying he's a communist who lived in nice opulence. Never heard of that before.

[B]

Yeah, well, Trotsky actually it's well documented. Read the book Bolshevik Wall street and Bolshevik Revolution by Anthony Sutton and another one that did a really good documentation. His name escapes me now, but he's a Swiss historian. So they pretty much track where these communists came from and overthrow Tsar. And it was bought, paid and funded by the banks in the west. So isn't that funny?

[A]

Why would they do that?

[B]

Exactly. See that's the question. I like I have my theories, but.

[A]

I don't know what would be your theory. So let's start with that. This is not based in fact, this is Elizabeth's theory.

[B]

So let's start with facts first and then we can move to the theory. Right. So Bolshevik Revolution and the Wall street is, is a great book to start reading and then I will remember the Swiss historian's name tracks Strutsky's. I mean it's real fact that Strotsky was living in New York and he was getting a salary and he had a chauffeur and a driver and he had a refrigerator and all of these items. And the question becomes where this guy had the money for all this stuff. Then he goes to conduct a revolution in Russia and he goes through Canada, he gets caught in Nova Scotia, again a fact, okay, we have documentations for it. He gets caught in Nova Scotia with ton of money and they're like where are you going? And then all of a sudden Canadian authorities get a go ahead so that he can pass and they just let him go. So he ends up with Lenin. Who was Lenin? And where was he living? Do you remember?

[A]

Because he was not in 1917.

[B]

Yeah, before he became revolutionary, before he ever entered Russia. Where was he? Because he was not living in Russia, he was in Switzerland. Right? So if I correct, is it Sweden? Switzerland. So they send Lenin and Trotsky the same time to Russia with ton of money. Why? Who are these people? Why do they have so much money? Like they are nobodies when you look at their background, right? And then they start investing this money in communism and Bolshevism, right? So they gather like this like minded people. This is where later on Stalin joins them. Like he's a nobody in the beginning. Beginning. And that's another thing, like most people don't even know who Stalin was in these historians in the west that come out and blobber a bunch of. And I'M like, what ground do you have?

[A]

What kind of do they blabber like a lot of.

[B]

About Stalin. That. That is not even remotely right.

[A]

Like, what.

[B]

I mean, we'll. Do you want me to give you a breakdown of.

[A]

So, for example, give me a breakdown because there's. There's, well, estate. Like, I have no doubt where was. Let me. Let me. He's from Georgia. Let me. Let me. Let me start with this. I have no doubt that at no point in history when victors have emerged.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Will you ever see something where the story told is 100% correct, doesn't exist. Like, I read. I study. I study the American Revolution like the.

[B]

Back of my hand.

[A]

I'm very glad it happened. I'm very glad they did it. These guys were amazing. Amazing. There's still 10 of things that sometimes do get written down, just not really talked about. Yeah, that. It's like, that was a little up, but like, that's. That's war.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So with Stalin, I have no doubt that there could be pieces where they're like, oh, you know, Stalin made it rain in Africa one day. And like, he didn't actually do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we are talking about a guy who is documented. I remember talking about this with the viola when I had him here. He's got a great YouTube channel. He studies this inside. Now we're talking about a guy who. Who is documented to have murdered millions and millions of people. So I don't see any nuance with like, oh, well, we'll. Stalin misunderstood. No, it was a midget who was just very upset about his height.

[B]

No. Did you listen to what I said? What did I say?

[A]

You said that there's been a lot of lies and propaganda about him. So I'm getting true.

[B]

Which is true.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So. And what else did I say? Do you know where Trotsky and London Lenin lived? You said, said, I don't know where. I told you where. This is a fact. You can look it up. Why don't you look it up where he lived. Like, it is. It is a fact. So this is where, like, when you talk about noise comes in. Was Stalin a dictator? Did he kill people? Yeah, of course he did. But was he everything that west told you he was? Absolutely not.

[A]

In what ways?

[B]

Many ways. So let's start from here. Do you remember the time when Stalin was Uncle Joe? Really? He was not a murderous dictator then.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When we were helping him.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Oh, okay. Well, okay. So what changed?

[A]

The war ended.

[B]

I see. War ended and then we wanted all these Territories that Soviets got and we wanted to overthrow and dismantle Russia. And all of a sudden he became a bad guy. Right, right, right.

[A]

To be fair though, that was all propaganda. They never liked him behind the scenes. FDR fucking hated him.

[B]

So of course they did, because they.

[A]

All thought he was a problem.

[B]

He was absolutely against the globalist elites. And that's the story that no one tells you. So you, you don't have good guy and bad guy here. You have bad guys.

[A]

Okay, I understand that, Elizabeth, but I, I, this is where I got to push back on this. I'm not made put aside like, right. Western leaders being all good, they're not. We'll come back to that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But like, if Jeffrey Dahmer were against the global elites, I'm not going to sit here and say, you know, Jeffrey was misunderstood, understood. No, that's like if you are murdering millions of people.

[B]

That's not what I'm saying.

[A]

You're a scumbag. I don't know what to tell you.

[B]

So again, like, millions of people. Exactly how many million? Like, millions of people? I, I, first of all, the numbers are not there to support it. That's one. The second, you have to understand the guy to talk about him. Like, for example, if you want to talk about Jeffrey Dmer, I personally can't talk about Jeffrey Dahmer. I know who he was, like in history, but I don't know. I don't understand the guy. I can't talk about him because I don't, I have not reviewed his case.

[A]

He was a bad guy.

[B]

Great. So, so was Stalin. No one argues that he was a bad guy. But the question is, when you have bad and the worst for humanity, like, what is your choice? Exactly. So let's talk about Stalin, shall we? What exactly do you know about Stalin? What exactly do you know?

[A]

I mean, I've already laid out some of it.

[B]

Okay, so where, where was he born? Georgia. Where?

[A]

I don't know where Georgia was born.

[B]

Okay, how long he, he stayed there? What was his profession? Like, do you know anything about the guy?

[A]

Like, I don't remember. I have studied this in the past off the top of my head. Like, like we're being quizzed in school. I don't remember what he did when he was growing up.

[B]

Exactly. So that, that's where, that's where I have problem. Like, no one really does. So I'm like, when I talk to people, they get so upset, they, because they don't have the information. And I'm like, stop.

[A]

We'll Give it.

[B]

Let's give it. So Stalin grew up, by the way. He was not Russian in any shape. And for he was not even slough. He was George Georgia. Yeah. So he was born in Gory, and he wanted to be a priest. So he started as a. He. He studied to become a priest in a seminary. So his father, his mother was super religious, and she believed in like, God and she was like, you know, crazy religious. She's still buried, by the way, in a pantheon which is like, only for holy people. So in Georgia. And this is the background that people do not know about stuff. Stalin. So he. He. He's in Georgia till the, like, the first marriage, and he has a first kid in Georgia. And then the wife dies because she was ill. And after the pregnancy, it kind of got worse and she ended up dying. And this is where Stalin decides, you know what? There must be no God. Because he was completely and utterly in love with this woman. And when this tragedy happens, he goes like, f this woman world, like, there's nothing to it. Like, you know, I got to go and find something else for myself. Because all these dreams and stuff that he had to become a priest. He wanted to become priest. He was a poet, by the way. He. He has a whole book of poetry and all that written. And in that poetry, it's so funny, you read like, the. The stuff like my little country that is not free or upset, oppressed because of Russia or something like that. This is the guy who wrote this and then becomes the Russian. Call it an emperor or dictator, whatever you want to call it, right? So all of this background is completely in trash. No one talks about it in the West. It's extremely important because it determines why he did things he did later on. Don't you think? Like every. Everybody's. My childhood determines why I'm sitting here, right.

[A]

I think it's very important. Just like Hitler getting kicked out of art school, you know, like, exactly. Those people. Exactly let them in. We would have saved ourselves.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. So then something very interesting happens, like, this is what I like. When we talk about communism, I always ask people, which communists, what era? It was all very different. And that's where they're like kind of something does like, you know, they get so confused about it. What do you mean? Like communists. Okay, which ones? Because they were all different. Communism in Russia was all different according to who was in charge of. Of them, right? So Lenin and Trotsky, both of them were traders. They were bought and paid by globalists. That's why Russians hate Trotsky, by the way, his last name was not Trotsky. He was Braunstein. He was a Jewish descent. He bought the last name Trotsky to assimilate with, you know, the. The Slavic names and Poland and Russia and all that. In reality, it was. He was Jewish, so was Lenin. So both of them come in. They have Western money to conduct the. The revolution. They kill the Tsar. Do you know which tsar they killed?

[A]

Nicholas.

[B]

Nicholas ii. Yes.

[A]

So Anastasia might have left.

[B]

No, she didn't. She didn't, unfortunately. Do you know how they did it? Like, it was so.

[A]

Oh, they killed him in a basement. They mowed him down.

[B]

It was so heartbreaking. And this is the.

[A]

And they were related to the British royal family.

[B]

Yes, yes. See, like, it's very rare that someone knows that. Yeah. Like, they were cousins. Cousins. And they completely abandoned the king. Yeah, I think they were in on it. That's why. So there was no reason to decline him and not accept the Russian royal family in England for, you know, safe house. Like, the reason they declined him is because Nicholas started saying shit like, we need to, you know, we need disarmament, we need world peace. That's him. Like, he believed in Renaissance and all that stuff. And you have this ginormous country, like, Russia, with all these resources, do have a leader that's pro peace and proper prosperity and pro, you know, renaissance and all that. And he's like, are you crazy? And they killed the guy and brought the Bolshevik Revolution. And how we know, again, that it was funded by. By the Western elites because there was a Red Cross mission going on, which, again, you can pull up a Red Cross mission if you. If you. You can find it. Saturn details this in his book. Look, who was in this Red Cross mission? Why did it happen?

[A]

Wait, can you explain the Red Cross mission?

[B]

Right, yeah. So they said they needed. So people have to understand the Bolsheviks were not that powerful force in the beginning. Okay? No one cared for them. Like, they tried multiple times to conduct a revolution. They failed. They could not conduct a revolution. And turns out they needed more money. So then Red Cross mission happens in Russia, and the Red Cross was like, when they. Or like when they suggested a mission, Red Cross was like, wait, we don't need a mission in Russia. Like, why are we doing this again? And if you look at who participated in that Red Cross mission, like, it's all either lawyers, like financiers, bankers. And what they were trying to do is use. Use Red Cross mission to funnel shitloads of money for the Bolsheviks so they could Finish the revolution. That's what it was about.

[A]

None of this. None of this part support surprises me.

[B]

Yeah, so that's what I'm saying. Like, they brought communism on Russia and then they lost the control. Exact same scenario like we always do. So you know when they lost the control? When Stalin came in power. So Lenin and Trotsky. Trotsky, till today, is considered as a traitor in Russia. Ask yourself why? Why is he a traitor? Why not other? Like, why not Stalin? Why not others? Why is Totski a traitor? Because he worked for the globalists. That's why he came from New York. Killed their tsar, gave bunch of gold. By the way, what did communists do? Remember all this Russian gold that was shipped to Europe? Like, why? What? They didn't want money. It's stupid, Right? So what happened is Lenin's last words are, anybody but Stalin. Why? See, that's where history goes completely haywire, Right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

So anybody was saying why? Why?

[A]

Len wasn't. He wasn't in on their scheme exactly.

[B]

He was. He was a random dude from Georgia who had his own devils in the head. And he was not part of this one world order. And he looked at it and I think I know exactly. Like, I studied Stalin really well and I had all the right documents for it because I'm from Georgia, I can read Russian, I can read Georgian. You know what I mean? So, like, like, I think I know exactly when Stalin learned that this communism, like, he really believed in it, right? He himself. And you can actually determine the time period when he. He learns what this is about, and he realizes that. Wait a second. Trotsky and Lenin, they are bought. Like, they. They are literally these puppets of the globalists. And this might, like, whatever is going on, it might not be real. Real. So this is where he actively starts to kind of take the power, right? And. And he's like becoming more and more important figure. He does really good. He was a very good negotiator. So every time, like, there was like some hard stuff to negotiate, they would send him. This is how he advanced in the ranks. Like, who was he? Some Georgian from gory. Like, are you kidding me? Like, all of a sudden he became a very important figure. And when he learned that this whole communism was not exactly what he thought, because again, this is why it's important to know a person's childhood. Entire poetry of his is about fairness, about, like my country being oppressed. So all of a sudden, communism, what do they say? Everyone's what? Equal. Equal. Even though that's not true. Right. But that was the message. So this young guy who lives because he was upset because his first wife died and leaves the kid with his very religious, by the way, mom to raise his name was Jacob. Jakob, actually, not Jacob, but Jakob. And he moves to Russia, and all of this stuff that he always dreamed of all of a sudden is presented to him as communism. Like communists can get you all this stuff, right? No royalty, no oppression, no nothing. And he ends up joining the Communist Party, but he ends up joining it because he believes in it. And then he learns that, hold on for a second, much bigger powers are at play here. And in my opinion, and this is my personal opinion, there's no way to prove it, is that he was. He was not okay with this one world thing that was going on. Right? Like, he. He was, like, very patriotic, which he was. So I call Stalin's patriotism as a toxic patriotist. Like, because there is such a thing as toxic patriotism for sure, Right. When you allow everything and everything is acceptable for your country to thrive. Like, not everything is acceptable. Right. So when you kind of cross every road, red line to protect your country, that was Stalin, and it was patriotic at first to Georgia and then to Russia. Right. As like, Soviet state. So Soviet republic. So when he learned that, what did Stalin do? Exactly. Exactly. Like, when he came in power, what did he do? He started killing. Who? Imprisoning and then killing who? The same Bolsheviks that conducted the revolution. Why? Why? Ask yourself.

[A]

Because we in the west, to your point, look at communism as one thing, which is the equivalent of being in the east and looking at Trump and Obama as the same exact person. Person. Makes no sense.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

They're just part of the same system. Okay.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And if I, If. If I. I've. I've had so many people come up to me off camera in the past six months, it's making me, like, terrified. Just taking history.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And saying, oh, there's one thing wrong for therefore dump the whole thing out.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

That. It's like it. It is actually bothering me. And I thought that's where you were going with him. I will, I will, I will. I will agree. Agree with you. So I apologize for jumping.

[B]

No, no, you're good.

[A]

I will, I will agree with you that the way that things are. What's the word I'm looking for? Homogenized all together is completely wrong. A lot of it is just propaganda. Make it simple for people to digest. There are a lot of nuances here. So the way you just laid out that case is Actually very fair in that it's not saying like, hey, these guys aren't evil and these guys aren't even. No, they all suck. But like, here's how it happened.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I understand that.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. So that's what is lost on history. And then what contributed to what you said, that every American's head is filled with communism. Just one thing and so on is the propaganda that followed of the globalist network against Stalin and all that. Because now two bad guys are fighting for the power, right? So he's a toxic patriot. Who, who, who's like, in his head. Well, I, you know, what is this glow? Like, what is this globalist going on here, right? Like, am I gonna get anything out of this? Like, is Russia gonna get anything? No, what Russia was supposed to do is got dismantled into parts, right? Like, how would you play Russia in this? Like one world order, like where, where Russia fits nowhere. Because it's, it's super complex geopolitically. It has Muslims, it has Christians, it has, has multiple diversities, like when it gets to genome and cultures and how they understand themselves. This is why Chechnya is a bomb in Russia, right? And we're not going to go into it because that's a whole another episode.

[A]

Chechnya is a what?

[B]

Bomb?

[A]

Is a bomb.

[B]

Bomb ready to explode? Like, not anymore, because Putin knew how to deal with it, but it was a bomb and it did explode, right? Like, you know, when Chechen war, the whole thing happened because it's a Muslim country in the inside Russia with all these Christians and, and above the different cultures in it, right? So Putin dealt it, dealt with it brilliantly. But again, it, it's still a threat, right? It's still, it's. It's still very different from everything. It's almost like having. Why not to divert from subject real quick, but why are we so afraid of immigration? It's the same principle. Now you have like, like, you know, Muslims in UK praying in entire streets and UK people are coming out and saying, like, whoa, what just happened here? What is going on? Well, guess what? That is a constant reality for Russians when it gets to Chechens, right? And Russia figured out how to make friends between Christians and Muslims in a way that both Chechen soldiers right now and Russian soldiers are fighting for Russia. They are not fighting for or, you know, Christianity or Muslim or whatever. They are fighting for their land, which is Russia. And they are equally putting everything they've got into it, right? And they somehow figured this out, that these like, differences are no longer quite that distinct anymore. That was again Putin. But before that, Chechnya was a huge problem and so was many other places, many other different nation at this, including Georgia, by the way. We were part of Russia as well. So you're dealing with this complex Soviet Union entity and how is it going to fit in your one world order? And Stalin could see that not only it's not going to fit, they can out me dismantle Russia. Like what they did with Ukraine. By the way, Trotsky was the guy who was saying, you know what? Ukrainians have the right for self determination. This was way before like anything, right? That's where this talk started. And then all of a sudden like there was there. There was propaganda against Georgians too. Like, hey, you're. You're this ancient country. Why are you okay with. With Russians, like being under Russians, you should have the ambitions to get out, right? What does that mean? You're dismantling Russia from the inside, right? Stalin could see that and he was like, no bro, it's not going to work because that going to. To result in me getting outed as well. And all of this that I'm building here. So this is I think where the whole thing went down. Like when, when the Lenin's and Stalin's like, you know, clash started and Stalin didn't want. Lenin didn't want Stalin to take over. He did it anyway. And then what did he do? Julian, do you remember like there's a word in Georgian and Russian history, we call it intelligen. He started killing. Who? The elites. Why?

[A]

Because he thought they were in on it.

[B]

Thank you. That was it. So yeah, the entire like history is told in such like ugly way when there's like actually actual facts that you can, you know, look at and tell. Tell it in the right way. Now next thing about Stalin is Stalin secondhand was Baria. That was actually Georgian too. That was Barry against bar gets no limelight whatsoever. Even though he was the true psychopath of the regime. Okay. Baria was a psychopath. Psychopaths like he was. I think Stalin's motivation was toxic patriotism. He was right in many, many things that he did. He was wrong in many things. But barrier was a complete psychopath. So. And again, like, you know, take the war. So World War II happens. And that's another weird thing that, that I could never understand. So who really won that war? You are educated enough to know this. Like I can see in our conversation that you know the fact, meaning who.

[A]

Was most responsible for the war coming to an end? Russia Russia threw the most bodies at it. There's no doubt about that. I think the way I've always looked at it is Russia through the bodies, through the military, Britain through the intelligence, and the United States through the push rush coming into it. I, I think, I think.

[B]

Would it be fair, Would it be fair to say that the biggest sacrifice.

[A]

Was made on the Russian part by mathematical numbers? For sure, absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

But I mean, again, like, that's everything. Like what Russia didn't throw the. The intelligence part or like they just left out on that? No, they didn't.

[A]

No, no, they did. I'm saying who had the most weight of, like, Right. Pulling off crazy for each of those. That's how I describe. Describe it. It doesn't mean all three didn't. Didn't play a role. The United States drew a lot of bodies at the problem too, actually.

[B]

Not comparable.

[A]

Let me explain something to Russia. But they. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Let's not do this, okay? Russia lost way more people. They lost. I don't even remember the number at Stalingrad alone. It was significant.

[B]

I'll tell you what, the numbers.

[A]

It was civilians. It was the whole bit.

[B]

I'll tell you what the numbers are.

[A]

Not to say, therefore, the United States lost, like, a million people.

[B]

No, not million.

[A]

Whatever it was, let's pull it up. Let's.

[B]

27 million. I can tell you 27 million on Russian part, 200,000 on the US part. I, I can break this down.

[A]

What were, what do you.

[B]

What were the 200.

[A]

World War II. You might be right. I, I just, I. But that's what I'm saying. When we start getting in the game of, like, discrediting all of it. 407,000, which I'll call that close enough. The same thing.

[B]

So exactly 27 million.

[A]

Right, but that's, that's what I'm saying, saying, yes, Russia threw significantly more bodies at the problem. But.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. Like, we still took losses, too. Just like. I don't think. Yeah, I don't think it's acceptable to say, like, oh, just 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. How about the 3 million polls?

[B]

How about the million? Exactly, that's what I'm saying. Exactly. I also, like. Yeah, so again, but we remember how we started this podcast. Compared to what? Right, Right. So would it be fair if we were in the same deal right now? And let's say I got everything and you got only 10%, and then, like, very simple thing, let's say we invented something and I came up with 70% of it. And you came up with the rest. And you came out and said, well, I'm the winner. Like how. I'm the inventor. No, I'm the inventor. You're the helper. Right. So that. That's how it is now. You have to. This is what, like people don't understand. It does matter. Matter. It matters because when Russians woke up one day, there was no men walking in the street anymore. 27 million they've lost. And what's even worse is that when this war is going on, guess what the elites in the US Are doing. Funding Hitler. Yes. And there's again this effect when the.

[A]

War was going on.

[B]

Yes, when the war was going on.

[A]

We know about before the war. But when the war was going on.

[B]

I'll tell you, you want even shocking thing. When the US Got into war, they continued funding Hitler. How so Union bank. If we had.

[A]

Joe will be back in a minute.

[B]

So Union bank. Look up Union bank and Bush. Prescott Bush. They continued funding Hitler. And the FBI had to actually the government issued. Seized the assets of the bank under enemy of the like.

[A]

Yeah, yes, yes, I know about that.

[B]

Yeah. So now think about this for a second. So for the Russians at Soviet Union, who gave up 27 million men. And then there is this propaganda somehow equalizing the effort here. Whether it's Brits, who. By the way, Churchill says it's his words. Let the. I can quote, exact quote. But he said something like, let the Russians do the groundwork. Let them do the work. War. Like, okay, so. So we did do the war, right. Like meaning Georgia, Russia and all this. All these people. My great grandfather died in that war. So like I said, it's not the same. I'm sorry, but it's not the same. If anyone really fought that war was Soviet Union. And they lost everything for it. Everything for it. Yes, Britain helped. Yes. Allied Forces helped US Elites, not the US People. By the way, US people were the. The most honorable in this war. Not the elites. Elites funded Hitler up until the very end. Until the bank had to. Sorry. The government had to seize their assets. Like what is that exactly what kind of. You know what I mean?

[A]

Real quick.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes, Prescott Bush was a scumbag.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And yes, some became a president. Yes, yes, somehow. And somehow the grandson became the president. President, yes. Allen Dulles was a scumbag who spent the entire war in Bern, Switzerland. Very interesting address to have during the war. Yes, there are people like that that were that case. But when we start saying and generalizing, it's the same Sin as when people generalize all Russians or something, you know, and throw it in with who's in. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me make this point, okay? When you generalize that right, and you there say, you therefore say the entire United States, you are insinuating. But hold on. When you say the elite, all of them, they were funding Hitler. They were funding Hitler the whole time. 99.99% of them in the United States were not. Prescott Bush should have been put on trial for treason, found guilty by a jury of his peers and executed. I don't even believe in the death penalty, but I make an exception right there.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

That is one guy.

[B]

Hold on.

[A]

There were a handful of other people. But to then make that insinuation that therefore the entire United States government, which. Which is what that argument gets to, it's like a slippery slope. Therefore they all supported it. I know that's not what you said, but you have to understand, when you say the elites, you said something like the elites, they were all funding Hitler. No, that's not the case.

[B]

Okay, so Davidson, Bush and all these people are the same elites that drive the government and drove the government later. How do you think you ask the great, great question. Question like, okay, so his son and grandson became very. How exactly? If it's just one guy and all the other ones are so innocent, like they are stupid or something. Like, how exactly did Bush do that? Explain to me who was Atchison, who was Alan Dallas, who was Avril Harriman, who was a magnet, by the way, you know who else funded Hitler? Avril Harriman, because he was a partner with Bush. So explain to me, if it was just one guy, how did he get away with not going to prison and getting executed? Because I'll tell you something right now. If I was that one guy and I secretly funded Hitler, why my country? I would like they would slit my throat like rest of them. Why didn't they do that? How would you.

[A]

Powerful guy in a powerful position.

[B]

Just one guy is the powerful guy and rest of them are not.

[A]

No, no. Yeah, there is. There is a handful of them that do that. And then they find their way into powerful positions and they're scum.

[B]

Then we have to argue how many then. And like you can't argue exactly what number there is, Julian, because you don't know and neither do I. But what I know is that an entity that gets away while my country is in the war, gets away with funding Hitler, is a very damn powerful force and is protected by very Very many people up on top because otherwise it cannot do what it does and get away and then have a descendant, two of them as the President of.

[A]

The United States, the descendants is a major, major issue. And I completely agree with that. Yes, I think it's. I think it is far more likely that when you have a victory like that, Allied forces in this way, and something like Hitler was stopped, Japan was stopped too, you just go through years and years of everyone losing a lot of people, this insane war, everyone's on edge around the world, and now it's over. What you don't want, right, is nuance in any way. You want to make sure that. And this is the point I'm really trying to make, right? You want to make sure that 100% of the narrative is on your side. Which is exactly what I was saying 15 minutes ago. When you look at any war, there is always for the victors. If they were in the right overall, there is always that 10 where they did some bad, bad. When you win, that gets covered up. I am not saying that's right, by the way. I think it's completely wrong that Prescott Bush was allowed to continue being Prescott Bush. I think it's wrong that his fucking sperm.

[B]

But you just said the plot, right? So how are you overthrowing the. The. The head like the President of the United States without having a backup plan? So it's not just one guy. You just mentioned the plot and Smidley Butler named ton of them and the names were like not released. Why? So who, who made that decision? You're talking about banking industry. Who else made that decision? So no, I'm sorry, it was not just the one guy. Because one guy didn't approach a freaking general to say, why don't we overthrow Roosevelt tomorrow and make this a Nazi dictatorship, okay? He's a mental case. He's going to end up in hospital. If that's one guy guy. He's not a one guy. And that's what thinking that way got us here. Now we are under these guys. You know this better than I do because you've been in the U.S. you grew up in the U.S. you know way longer than I have. So now we are under this one guy. All. All this like shadowy government and we can't do about it because the first time they did something like that, we said, oh, it's just the one guy. Don't pay attention to it. It was not a one guy. And that's my. My be.

[A]

It is. It is absolutely in the context of the situation, a Handful of people. Like I was saying, it's not just one guy, it's actually multiple. But I'm saying when you generalize it to be like, therefore the entire government was supporting.

[B]

No, I said. Hold up.

[A]

You said the elites. I'm sorry, when you say the. All the elites were supporting Hitler. They weren't. There were some that were.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't say all the elites. We can go back. But I said, I said the elites, which is true. Then the government, by the way, I never count government in the elite, so let's make that distinction. Okay. So to me, government is absolutely, completely different player here. Really? You would, you would think that Donald Trump is part of the elite? I would argue he's not. Like who, who's really like, you can't count the government into the elites. Government is manipulated by the elites. We would agree on that. That. But would you, would you say that Donald Trump is part of the elites? No. Right. That's why we voted for him. We got him in the office to clean the house and so that this would not happen. So let's make that differentiation. We can just say elites. Okay. That's another thing that kills me. Elites, okay. Who I can name my sources and I can tell you the investigations I've done. Davidson's for example, that never get mentioned. Truby Davidson that literally single handedly created the Navy Reserve that America didn't have. What the heck was Truby Davidson's job to do? So it was not, but he made his job because he needed a control over military. It's a whole rabbit hole that you know, we can go down to, but we can't just say much to your point, just the elites. No, the government is a different entity. The bankers are different and they are, by the way, some of them are not even American. Okay, let's start from here. Here. So when I say that the elite forces, which is true multiple, not just one, funded Hitler. Again true. They did. So then. Now put yourself for a second in Russian shoes. For a second, you lost 27 million men against this madman. And then you find out which they know by the way, that the US elites, which are bankers and the people who then drive the government and all this, all this machine funded this madman that killed 27 million of your people. Sit on that for a second how that feels and then be pissed. You would be pissed.

[A]

I think that the same Elizabeth, I think the same things that have happened with propagandizing us to believe 100% truth and stuff that is not right is now being thrown completely in the opposite direction, carefully and deliberately to turn us in on ourselves. To assume. I agree with every. Now I have a lot of problems with like the elite class, obviously.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I try to look at things on a case by case basis. So when I hear generalizations on things that make huge claims that can. Whether or not it's your intention or not, but that can be taken as like, therefore, like the elites just in general were all supporting Hitler. That.

[B]

I never said all were supporting Hitler. Like, we, we talked about this.

[A]

I understand that. But you said like, the line was the elites. The elites were supporting Hitler. Are we going to talk about that? Like, that was the line. And I'm not. I don't like being a literalist. I don't like taking apart words and whatever. But we're living in a world now where people are suddenly like, saying things like, you know what? Actually, Hitler wasn't the bad guy in World War II. It was really Churchill. It's like, it's like, dude, dude. I'm not saying Winston Churchill was a perfect guy. Far from it. Far. We could, we. We could certainly go down. We can agree, but like, we can't.

[B]

It.

[A]

It sometimes feels like we are in a vortex now post Covid, to believe the op. The polar opposite on everything. And it really.

[B]

Why is that the polar opposite? I. I don't understand.

[A]

What do you mean? Why is that so. So one narrative is that Hitler was the worst thing ever. He was the only worst thing ever. Right there. Everyone had to kill everything.

[B]

I don't know where you get this narrative. That's not my narrative.

[A]

No, I'm saying the general public narrative right now.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's not your narrative.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm saying this is what the narrative has been in public. The world had to. Had to stop him and all that. And anything that happened on the way there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or once we had to get to that point or once we had to do it was absolutely fine.

[B]

Fine. Right.

[A]

That was one narrative.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's not 100% right.

[B]

I don't agree with that.

[A]

Right. He was a very bad guy. That part's right. But like, there were a lot of other things that went into it, by the way, including, I just want to lay out this so that we can. People can understand where I come from. The other narrative that's now forming is literally the opposite of that. And it's literally saying, you know, maybe he had a point. And it's like, dude, I don't know why we can't hold multiple thoughts at the same time. So I get really. I. And. And I'll admit it, and I'm sure people are going to let me know in the comments, and that's absolutely fine. That's why we do this show. We cover all perspectives here. But, like, I get really, really concerned about the psyop that I think is happening in the other direction. Now. We've already seen a psyop in one direction right now. It is the equal but opposite reaction happening in the other direction, where nothing we've ever done is right. Nothing. There's nothing in America that is not true. I know that you don't think that's true. Yeah. But I'm saying that's what a lot of people now think is true, and it concerns me deeply.

[B]

Yeah, I don't think a lot of people think that at all, actually. I think you don't talk to people, really. Oh, you don't talk to them. I do.

[A]

Like, I mean. I mean, I. If I told you some of the things people come and tell me off the street these days, I'm like.

[B]

Like what? Tell me something. Something like, because I. I think there's absolute nonsense.

[A]

What I just told you is a really common one. I'll get you. You know, actually, like, dead. Seriously, people walk up to me. Winston Churchill was actually the bad guy in World War II. Hitler wasn't as bad as we've been.

[B]

Okay, okay. That's like flat earth.

[A]

Okay, no, that's what I think. But I'm saying, like, this is now something I hear a lot. Elizabeth.

[B]

No, no. So again, like.

[A]

But I do. I hear it from people. From people that I would describe as normal.

[B]

Again, I believe that. I believe that. That they're. They're. Again, like, conspiracies are wild. But again, there's a reason to be like. Like, there's a reason. Reason why people are so. Like, everything is a conspiracy. Everything is. Must be opposite. Because it's easy. Because it's easy when you don't have to break down the case. You can just. Well, good guy, bad guy. Easy. Right? Good guy, bad guy. Well, I was wrong. Okay, well, then somebody has to be a bad guy. Why don't we make the. The Churchill bad guy? Like, it's easy. It's easy to hold that thought. It's very complicated when say. Actually, let me explain. The United States. United States and its people were always the good guys, but they had this very, very rotten aspect of things, which is like banking and elite forces and all of these people that are manipulating many people in the United States. See, when you explain that, like now you don't have like black and white, you just have people who are doing their like. Again, take Roosevelt. I don't blame Roosevelt on a lot of things. Like In World War II, like, we just talked about what Etchison did without him knowing what caused us the purple harbor, right? So there are elements which we know shadow government, which is today, like what happened with Charlie. Kirk, if there's no shadow government, why do you not know what happened to Charlie? Really there is and there always was. So ignoring that is not going to help you. So unfortunately, they are in the U.S. u.S. And Britain. Where would you be? Where would you be if you were a guy who's like money hungry and wanted to concord the world? Like, which country would you choose to do it from? The United States of America. So that's what I'm trying to tell you since I got here. Like, it's not that us people are. Actually, there are some, some fault of ours as well, because we allow this in the U.S. right? Like we, we don't know. We stay ignorant enough or what you said. We, we go crazy on conspiracy theories and we cannot tell the difference and we cannot tell what's real, what's not. That's on us. Like, no one, no one stopped you from doing research. No one stopped you from being smart about these things, right? So, yeah, of course there is a responsibility. Just like in Nazi Germany, Germans were responsible for allowing Hitler to what he did. What, like Hitler just, you know, overridden, like millions of people? No, they did what they did to too. So let's be real in the US and take the responsibility we owe to the world, which is we have the deep state that goes and operates without our presidents even knowing about it. When we start there, then everything is much clearer, you know, and the roles of what's happening in this country are already defined, you know, so that's what I'm saying. And by not recognizing them and just saying, oh, well, that's, you know, just one or two people and, and then nothing. We should not pay attention.

[A]

And if I misstate that. Let me be very clear, I don't think we should not pay attention to that. I just don't want to generalize the whole thing because that's how that is. That is the same way that narratives start where they say, like, you know, you could insert blank here about Russia and the Russian people or whatever.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

See it both ways.

[B]

Which again, like, we agree on that. So, so that's what I'm Trying to say, and the issue should be upfront and saying, this is exactly what we need to think about. So why did I say, how would you feel as a Russian? Right? Because they are not stupid. They know this shit. Right? They know, they understand what's going on. And now take. Despite that, by the way, despite all that, what happened? Gorbachev agreed to the terms. Russians came to the table, they tried to shake our hand. What did we do? Do? What did we do? We broke every agreement on the way. Not every, but many agreements.

[A]

We did break agreements?

[B]

Yeah. Why? And not just any agreement, dude. Something that would cause like, catastrophic results.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Question is, why did we need Ukraine? No, we didn't. CIA director himself said, strategically it's not important to us. Really? Then why are you meddling there? Why do we have a recording? Huh?

[A]

That's a lie. That's not what he thinks at all.

[B]

Yeah, he did. There was a memo.

[A]

No, no, no, no. I'm saying he said that, but I'm saying that's a lie. Like, that's not what he actually thinks.

[B]

No, of course. Like. Well, I don't know why he said it. I honestly think that he understands that strategically it's not important for him. This is before war. You have to keep in mind, like, this is where he was an ambassador.

[A]

But that's what I'm saying. It's always, always been important to them. Look at where it is. Like, why would the US if you're looking at it from the worst case scenario too, why would they not want, and I don't agree with this, but why would they not want that as a proxy country, effectively. Look at where it's located. It's on, it's on the scene.

[B]

That's the problem. Like, that's the thing. Why would they want it? Like, it's not in our best interest for American people, for the elites. Yeah, so you're thinking like, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, So I agree with that. Yeah, of course. Because their objective is war and conflict and stabilization. Yeah, but put, put their object. I don't give a fuck about them. Let's just forget them for a second. American people who we give a fuck about and what this country should be, how is in our best interest what happens in Ukraine and if we have forces there, let me tell you, it's not in our interest, our interest to make friends with Russia. Imagine for a second that we are on good terms with Russia. You know how many things that can help us with, with you have, have Russia in Your orbit means that you can because Russia is not a superpower like you. Right. So you're the big dog. You can influence Russia, and through Russia, you can influence the entire hemisphere on the other side, why not have Russia as a friend?

[A]

I, you know, when you put it like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's very simple. Put aside personal. Look, pre war, let's actually start there. Let's, let's, let's look pre war, before there was actually, you know, all kinds of bodies dropping on both sides and all that funding going on and all that. You don't have to like Putin. I, I fully understand that. I've covered that many times before. But, like, if you're looking at it strictly strategically and saying, well, we're not going to control who's in charge of their country, but we can, you know, let's talk about it like a parasite. You can use them for exactly your own needs and allow them to exist in their way. I see where people would make that argument.

[B]

Yeah. So you're saying let's use them for our good. Right. How are using them for our, our own good? How are you doing that right now with wars? You're not.

[A]

You're not.

[B]

Exactly. That's my point. So why don't we make friends with them? We. We know they can challenge us in any shape and form.

[A]

It's just the old kid on the, on the schoolyard thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So dug in. You're so dug in already that you're like, you can't, can't. You can't say now, you know what.

[B]

It actually, you can, because you could.

[A]

But, like, psychologically, the human condition doesn't let you do that.

[B]

I don't know if I agree with that, to be honest. Like, I don't know, because here's the thing. It happened before a million times. We did this with freaking Noriega. We did this with everybody. Why can't we do it with Russians? Because it's not in best interest of the, again, elite forces and people who control this country to have peace. Because if you are friends with Russia, you have what, you have peace.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's unacceptable. It comes down to that only period.

[A]

I think you have a point there. I think that when, when you look at, when you look at, you know, blatantly announcing like, oh, Blackrock's going to rebuild Ukraine after this war is over, when you look at the fact that there were multiple opportunities to go to the table and negotiate here, and I agree with you, Zelensky's been outed as kind of A. Yeah. You know, like the best part is when he's coming and telling us what to do. And it's like, buddy, we're. We're paying you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Like, I'm all for a country, right, Being able to make their own decisions and stuff like that. But when I'm funding your entire thing, which I don't agree with, but we've.

[B]

Done it on me.

[A]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

You kidding?

[A]

We are making the call at that table because we have. Personally, like, I don't agree with any of it, but I'm saying, once you're in that situation, don't sit here and tell me I don't have a vote. Like, I'm the chair of the board.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Exactly, exactly.

[A]

I'll agree with that.

[B]

But they allowed Zielinski, who allowed that behavior, Julian, they allowed Zielinski. They played this puppet so well. They allowed him to think. Think that he's actually Winston Churchill. And when you do that, like, it's true, right? And when you do that and you allow that person to actually think that he's gonna start behaving like Winston Churchill. And then you get what you got, right? And then Trump came in and slapped him in the face and said, boy, you really need to quit thinking like you're Winston Churchill. Because let me puts perspectives in place right now, you're a nobody. And he was so humiliated. Remember the meeting when Trump and Jense just rained down on him?

[A]

Oh, yeah, no, that was prime time tv. Yeah.

[B]

Just crazy. But he kind of woke him up. And all of a sudden. Did you see the change in behavior all of a sudden? Now he's like, everybody's about, oh, Trump. And these are the same guys who have worded Trump before he got into the office, like Mark Ruta. Like Mark Ruta is who hated Trump with everything he had. And all of a sudden, Trump is the daddy now, the big daddy. Right. Like, it's. It's pathetic. It's so like you want to throw up when you look at these people, you know?

[A]

Yeah, but it's not there. There's an old line Joe Rogan had that I think is so good and it's so true. He's like, when you look at even being president, though, the people that come in and meet with you, you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They were there before you got there. They're going to be there after you leave. And you both know it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And so you wonder, like, yeah, I. I have seen some of that and I'll take what you're talking about with, like, people having to change up their vibe with Trump on certain things related to that war and stuff like that. I think that's a positive. But also, why is it still going on, too, right? I mean, I've had. I've had people in here who, who were on the ground there, and they're like, dude, they're dropping bodies left and right on both sides, fighting over 14 yards for two weeks.

[B]

Right. Why is still going on is actually a good question. I think I have my theories of why it's going on.

[A]

What's your theory?

[B]

You have to imagine yourself in Putin's place right now. Can you do that? Can you do that? Are you able to. You know, McNamara said that once, like the biggest thing about being a politician, and I think he repeated in Fog of War, a documentary that everyone should watch. He said, you have to be able to put yourself under. He said, under. Under their. Their skin. Like you have to become them. Right? That's what he's saying. Well, think about Putin and his world. He comes in power, okay? And talking about that dark spot in, in America that tries to control the world. Right? Right. So these guys made Russia lose territories by made. They made a promise, hey, bring down the wall. Let's rearrange this. Right? Let's. Let's, you know, figure out what's going on here. So these guys pretty much helped Soviet Union, like, be no more. Okay? Like, in a way, it was not their achievements. When Soviets got there, it was all Soviets by themselves. They imploded from the inside. But they helped the process of Berlin Wall and all that. And Bush came in and did what he did. But here's an interesting thing. What did they do right after that Berlin Wall came down? I can, I can tell you what they did. They sent operatives, whether it's CIA and MI6 and others in country of Georgia, Ukraine and all these countries that belonged to Russia, and they started arming groups that eventually would break off Georgia, Ukraine and other, other places from Russia. So now, like, you're Putin, remember you. I'm. I'm an American. You're Putin. So you ask, answer me as Putin. Okay, so you lived Yeltsin years where your president was like a funny puppet to Bill Clinton, right? When he was bagging on the phone to Bill Clinton not to bother bomb Serbia, right? So you watched all that. You were at the kgb. You watched all that and you have this anger in you, like, how. How come a president of Russia like a huge superpower back someone else not, not to bomb Slavs. Like, what is that, by the way? Right? So then you had to take this anger when you came in power as a president, you have to take this anger and put it in a position box. And he went over to Bush, he said, let's be friends. And you meant it, by the way. You even offered, why don't Russia become part of NATO? What does that mean? That means, like, full on friendship zone here. Like, And Bill Clinton said, we've got a great idea. And next day he comes in. Actually, I've talked to people, they said, no. Why? So he made multiple attempts to be friends with the Americans with like, no. Like, there was no extra. Like, you know, what's the catch, right? Like, let's be friends, dude. What is the deal? And they said, no, we don't want you as a friend. I'll tell you even better. Michael Hayden, the psychopath who, who was in charge of NSA and then CIA. I mean, can you imagine how many butts you got a case to be like, in charge of both? Like, one agency is big enough, enough. And he comes out and says, well, we didn't care what Russia thought. We didn't give a. Like, he didn't say, but we didn't care. He said, really? You didn't care that Russia was telling you that, hey, do not jeopardize my national security. Why do you care when England says that England was the biggest enemy we ever had historically? Why do you care when England says that? Why accept, like, Israel, England and not Russia in friendship? What's up with that? That, like, think for a second. Yeah, right.

[A]

Yeah. I don't. I think that when you look at the foreign policy of the United States towards Russia just on a diplomatic level since the fall of the Soviet Union, I don't think there have been a lot of good strokes at all. I, I will agree with that 100%. I think that you have, have forced them into a box such that.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Even if you get people who maybe are objectively bad people, maybe they do some bad to their people, you are giving them a case to take their foreign policy actions that they do. And it is a great point that you make to put yourself, quote, unquote, under the skin.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Of a leader, particularly someone that you don't think is good. And, and, you know, I don't think it's bad, actually.

[B]

I know you don't, but. No, no, not at all. I used to.

[A]

I've had someone sit across from me who's had all kinds of friends executed by that guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's very.

[B]

I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about, and I don't think so. So I grew up hating Putin. Unfortunately, I admit that I was wrong. I grew up in country of Georgia, right. Like, I mean, as a kid. So Edward CIA puppet was the president. So they taught me to hate him. So I hated him because I. I was not a journalist. I didn't have the tools. I. So I hated the guy with everything I had. And then when I became a journalist and I started actually reading stuff and actually understanding, putting myself into his skin, I realized that not only this guy's not a bad dude, he's also a really effing good leader of Russia.

[A]

Why do you say that? Let's start with the first part. Why. Why is. Why is he not.

[B]

1991. Where is Russia?

[A]

1991.

[B]

Yeah. What's happening?

[A]

Lost. Broken communism.

[B]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. All of that. So then Russian people are looking for food in. In freaking dumpsters. Chechnya is a growing problem. It's about to explode, which it did, by the way. So. And all of a sudden, you had. You have pathetic president like Yeltsin, and then Putin comes in power, and not only he takes the country out of the gutter, but he actually gives Russian people pride to be a superpower again. Argue that fact with me. Like, argue. That did. That did not happen. Russia is not a third. Yeah. Who else did this?

[A]

I mean, I don't. I don't disagree with that.

[B]

So would you argue that most Russians like Putin? Like, I was there. I, you know, I visited Russia. I know that most majority of Russians support him. Majority of Russians. Is that a fact or not? You say. You tell me.

[A]

I would actually believe that's a fact. Good. I think there's been some polls that are conducted that are, like, clearly skewed, but you're saying I want to know when they're like, oh, not even 85% of people support him. That's not the case.

[B]

There is never a case.

[A]

Do I. Do I believe it when the data comes out? Like, oh, 60%.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. So let's agree on basics. Okay. Putin reformed Russia into another superpower, which it wasn't, by the way. 1990. It was. It was a mess. It was not superpower.

[A]

It was a mess.

[B]

Yeah. So he brought the status of superpower back. He reformed the entire army. That was it. And, like, nothing in 1990 where they didn't even. They didn't know what they were doing. Yeah, he reformed the country completely. And his people like him. Why is he a bad leader? What makes him.

[A]

Where do you want me to start?

[B]

No, I asked you like, what kind of leader is a good leader when he reforms the country? People like.

[A]

I think part of being a good, good leader is also knowing that the system that. That you are not bigger than the system. And this is a guy who's repeatedly changed the constitution to be able to stay in power of the country in perpetuity. It's also. It's also a guy that. And like I say this knowing full well that my country and many countries around the world have done this stuff too. So let me be very clear on that. But he's a guy who came into power blowing up his own apartment buildings in Russia.

[B]

That was not a false flag. I'm sorry, if you're talking about why it was not.

[A]

I do believe it was. I think.

[B]

I mean, it was actually. I agree. It was a false plague. I'm sorry, I misspoke. It was a false plague, not Vladimir Putin's false plague. If you know the case, which I.

[A]

Do, how do you.

[B]

I can send you an article about it.

[A]

All right, so how do you think. Who else would have done that? Vladimir Putin. David Satter was the guy on that. Alexander Litvinenko was the other guy. And Putin killed him.

[B]

Yeah, I know Alexander. I know who he was.

[A]

He killed him outside of his country. Poisoned the guy.

[B]

Yes, I actually believe that he did kill it.

[A]

That's what I'm. That's what I'm saying. So why would he. Why would he kill the guy who lit. Vanenko was a former fsb.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Guy who was blow. Who. So there were two guys who were blowing the whistle on. On the apartments. One of them is my friend David Satter, who sat here with me two times before he was in the west because he's in America.

[B]

American.

[A]

The other one was Alexander Litvinenko, who was FSB internal. Alexander Litvinenko was executed. I think it was in London. I haven't looked at that.

[B]

Yes, it was. He was poisoned.

[A]

He was poisoned with polonium. With polonium by FSB agents. That is on Vladimir Putin's orders.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To do that. Right. The case that zero argument with that. David. David runs through the entire case, and he's written like eight books. I forget the name of this one, but there's one of his books we can. It updated Satter apartment bombings book. He makes the full case. He's laid it out with me on.

[B]

How many times I've heard it on A American propagandist radio too, I have no doubt.

[A]

Listen, listen, hold on, Elizabeth. I have no doubt that there is propaganda against Putin. I have zero doubt about that. I know that if they could blame Putin for someone farting in another.

[B]

I'll make it super easy for you. Let's say he did like, I, I disagree and I'll send you a great word work to, that goes into detail to who did it. But let's say, I'll make it super easy for you. Let's say he did it. He conducted a false flag. What was that false flag about? Do you remember?

[A]

So the false flag was at a time where what happened was Yeltsin had a 1% approval rating. Putin was the number two in charge. At towards the end, he had a 1% approval rating as well. Yeltsin gets on the phone with Bill Clinton and says, hey, I'm going to introduce you to my number two. He's going to be the next president. President Clinton's like the. Are you talking about you're about to be put on trial by your people after you lose power, then the apartments fall down. It then is blamed on the Chechens. They start the second Chechen war. Putin becomes the wartime leader, he moves up the election.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, this is a, this is a Democratic leader moving up, whatever.

[B]

A Democratic leader.

[A]

You understand? You understand what I mean? Like, like when the connotation is like, he, I shouldn't say Democratic, but you understand what I mean. Like, it's supposed to be a Democratic election. Okay, I'm sorry, I misspoke. But like moves up the election, why he's a wartime leader in his prize. And his, and his, and his polls went up to 55%.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Wins the election, then basically never gives up power, like one plus one plus one. But. And then when you look at the actual evidence in the towers, like, okay.

[B]

So here, here's the thing. I told you, I'll make it super easy for you. Let's say was the red flag operation, sorry, a false flag operation. Right. Okay, great. So that operation happened so that they could have an excuse to go into Chechnya and start another war. Okay. So the question is, was Chechen war out looking at now where we are correct way to do things or not? Because 90. There, I'll give you a number two. 90% of historians and political analysts would say, yes, it was because look at Chechnya now. So what he did there, let's say if he did, which I again disagree, and I'll send you work to Read. But let's say he did that false flag and killed like, four people.

[A]

It wasn't four people. It was a lot more than four people.

[B]

Okay, so let's say 50. It was more than one is. Even one is a tragedy, but let's say 50. Okay, so it was hundreds, but yeah, he ended hundreds. No way.

[A]

Yeah, it was multiple towers.

[B]

It's not. Not like. It's not.

[A]

Can we do the Russian apartment bombings, 1999?

[B]

There's no way. Hundreds, like, casualties, like. But anyway, so he goes into Chechnya. That is about to become a huge problem. Right?

[A]

And I told you 307.

[B]

307. Okay, I was wrong about that. So let's say the, the Chechen war. If he has not gone and dealt with that, right. That would become the downfall of the entire region. Everyone agrees that what Chechnya is today, like, with complete calm in Chechnya. And yes, some Russians say, well, kind of, he, he. He won Chechnya by money in a way, because he, you know, puts a lot of money into Chechnya. But the reality is there is no conflict. The reality is the hottest spot was neutralized. Right? They could have called cause thousands and thousands more deaths. So now make the analysis as a leader. Okay? 307 people. Okay, so 307 people versus millions that could follow. You make the choice. You're Vladimir Putin, remember? You make the choice.

[A]

I think it's the same hypocrisy of things we look at in the US where we've made these choices.

[B]

No, no, it's not, because you don't really have the enemies. What enemies do you have?

[A]

Like, okay, so in the United States.

[B]

Yeah. What. What are. Who's your enemy, really? Who's your enemy? I mean, we made everyone our enemy, but who was there? Like, was Vietnam your enemy? The. The. The country that you invaded for, like, on a lie. Is that. Yeah. So who was. Who, who was the.

[A]

Tonkin was a false flag.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

Then the question is, then who's attacking you? Who. Who's attacking you? Who's your enemy?

[A]

In. In that case, that was a false flag that we did on.

[B]

I agree. What. What about 9 11. What about 911? 11? Who. Who attacked you? What about 9 11?

[A]

So, so with. With the apartment bombings? It's the same argument. That's my point.

[B]

How is the same argument you have. You have west funding Chechen terrorists, which we know is true. Like, they funded not only Chechen terrorists, but you have west funding Georgian Terrorists like, you know it's gonna explode. They are putting funding. These people are getting stronger and stronger and stronger. You're gonna allow that these groups to become what Abkhazia became for Georgia? Are you kidding me? Like, how is that the same case? I don't recall anyone funding Vietnamese to attack you. I don't think anyone trying to destabilize the United States with militia groups from the inside putting money into it. Did Russia do it? No. So it's not the same case. I'm sorry, it's not the same case. So this is a new president who came in in the most complex region. His enemies, by the way, in the CIA and the MI6 are using the complexity of the region, funding these militia groups. Have you ever heard of what happened to Baeslon in this?

[A]

In the school, right?

[B]

Yeah. Who was that? Was it. Was it Russia too? What was Bestlan about? Pull up Bislan's numbers for me. Or have you ever heard, like, theater siege of almost thousand people? Who was that? What was that about?

[A]

They blame that one on the Chechens.

[B]

Thank you. That's all I have to say. So you have anime enemies funding these groups and you're not supposed to do anything about it, Just let them become Afghanistan? Because if Russia ever became Afghanistan, we would have a disaster on our hands ever. Afghanistan is Afghanistan. When Russia, such an entity gets to that level, which if not for Putin, it would have. And to answer your question, too, and why I became from a hater of Putin to actually, I understand this guy's situation, and I actually think that he's a good leader. Leader is very simple because. Yes. Did he manipulate the constitution to stay in power? Power, yes. Would you have a better candidate other than him to put the shit together in Russia and keep the region glued? Name one. Name one. And I will say, you know what? F. Putin, he should have gone. If you could give me one candidate there, who could have. Could have done it? Nobody. Nobody.

[A]

How do we know it's no one if no one's ever been given the opportunity?

[B]

Yeah, they have been given. Alexander. What's his name? The guy. Guy. The opposition.

[A]

Navalny.

[B]

Navalny, yeah. So Navalny was given a great opportunity to be the opposer of Putin Prison now. Yeah. You know why?

[A]

Why?

[B]

Who. Who did he have dealings with?

[A]

So you think, you think he was a full blown. Full blown Western?

[B]

Of course he was, Julian. That's the thing. What I will agree with. One thing that I will agree with is, is that he fails in, In. In. In conducting like, fair. How Do I say this? What Putin fails in is, and I don't know, maybe he has somebody like, after him, but he fails in creating what Yeltsin created with Putin. Like, he fails in creating a, like an heir to his empire. Like, and I don't know if he has one. People say he has one. I don't know. Know. But the reality is if Putin did not rule Russia for like, from Yeltsin period, time to, to now, we would be in a huge. Because right now, I can tell you I don't have any hope that next Russian leader is going to be as moderate as Putin. Because you don't know who. Like what.

[A]

You don't know who's next in charge.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Like, so, so would you, like, look at Putin's Persona. Every educated economist, financier, like Jeffrey Sachs, for example, great example, which I still don't know why Jeffrey Sachs is not advising someone like Trump. And we have hawks advising him in the most sensitive situation we are in right now. So everyone would agree that Putin had huge restraint for almost seven years in a row, row. And I would say even more, he exercised a huge restraint against us and against Britain of what we've done and how we manipulated the agreements, walked out of it. Why did we walk out from anti missile ballistics treaty? Who forced us to? What was the case? Exactly. Right. So again, remember, you are Putin. So think like him. Like, to him, everything that you did is a betrayal. I came to you as a friend. Everything you did is a betrayal. And then your only argument against me as a Persona is that when you're not a Democratic leader, how can I be?

[A]

Yeah, you're just a bad guy.

[B]

Yeah, well, okay, so here's how I dismantle that in two ways. Okay? Number one, how can I ever be Democratic leader when you're trying to overthrow me every single time? What I'm supposed to put my, my trust in, like every random Russian that they, they are not going to buy into your propaganda? How can I be a Democratic leader? I gave you a Georgian example of things, right? So that's one. So let's say your answer is like, well, just be tougher. Just be tougher and don't allow them to overthrow you. Okay, great, let's take that. Second, your argument is just be a Democratic leader. Aren't we the guys who put dictators everywhere? Like in Latin America, we overthrew the Democratic leader. Move Mosaddeq, he was Democratic. Why did we want from him? So your argument is this, you're a hypocrite. You're a hypocrite if you do.

[A]

I'm not, by the way. I ain't arguing with the fact that America's got a lot of hypocrites in the bureaucracy, including the people that are the loudest about a guy like Vladimir Putin. I have no doubt about that.

[B]

So what we are trying to work out here, like with us, me and you, Julian, is very simple. Is Vladimir Putin a dictator? He has to be. Nds he is. Yes, he is. He's not a democratic leader. He never argued. He was ever. I don't remember Vladimir Putin coming out and arguing. I'm a democratic leader. Look at me, look at my democracy. He never did. But he also argued that the situation he's in doesn't allow anything else. And it's true. It's true. Explain to me just now what we talked about, how you're gonna do that. Like, no one wants to see more democratic Russia than Russian people, but they also understand what's at stake, you know what I mean? Like, that's why they support their president. And there was a time when Russia ate it all and did not support the Tsar, and they killed Russian Tsar, and it resulted in Bolshevism and communism. And this time they've got his back. They've learned the lesson. You know what I mean?

[A]

How do you. God, there's a lot of directions to go. There's a lot of directions to go with that. That.

[B]

The. The only thing I would say that I can never, ever forgive Vladimir Putin as, as a person is there was a guy that he could have talked to and. And he chose not to.

[A]

And Neof.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. There was a guy.

[A]

Killed him 100 yards from the.

[B]

Yes. So this guy. I. I will say this. Nemtsov bought our property. Propaganda. The propaganda part. Not like he also brought the American. Bought the American dream, which was true. Right. But he bought a lot of our propaganda, unfortunately. And he started talking with the talking points of globalists. Like, if you look at his interviews, which I. Till today, I adore him. Like, as a person, I liked him a lot. He was. He was just looking into his eyes.

[A]

So. Interesting, right? You like him and you still adore him.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

It's just very.

[B]

Adore who?

[A]

It's like.

[B]

Like Ed or. Yeah, yeah. What's wrong with them, too?

[A]

There's nothing wrong with them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's just interesting the way that you talk about Putin and then talk about Nemsov, that's is very similar to saying you adore The Red Sox and.

[B]

The Yankees, I would disagree, but I understand for you. I disagree.

[A]

They hated each other. One killed the other.

[B]

So, so doesn't mean. Listen, they both wanted the same thing. They both want the best for Red Russia. They just know.

[A]

I, I'm, I'm telling you, one executed the other. Yes, because, because he disagreed with them.

[B]

So, so, so what do you mean, so? Okay, so again, okay, so according to your logic then all our leaders, all our presidents in the United States, how many people they have killed, like, oh.

[A]

I have no doubt.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Had some of this.

[B]

Then what makes. Okay, then what? Then what makes nothing different.

[A]

Nothing makes that.

[B]

That's all. So, but, but, but you have to agree though, when you said, oh, Elizabeth, you have no idea how many times I go out and all these people tell me this stuff. Because that's the opinion. Would you disagree that the opinion is that Vladimir Putin is this terrible, terrible person when he's not doing anything different than all the American leaders, What is he doing any different? In fact, I would argue he's better than most of our leaders. Most. Not all, but most. I'm not counting Kennedy or Lincoln or any other of them. I'm, I'm talking about Bush senior. I'm talking about Bill Clinton. I would argue that he's like three times better than these people put together what these people do. Exactly. Because again, you're judging as a personal level. I'm judging is look at everything. He, the guy like literally drag his country out of depression, made his country superpower. His people love him. Him, he stands for the right principles. No transis, no weird animal here. You do not touch the kids. It's off limits. You do not do that. Christianity is our religion. That's. We go, okay, so then you have Bill Clinton, Bush Sr. And all these people that dismantled American myth. Okay, would we argue on that? Like literally gutted America got into ton of wars. Our economies were handed over, by the way, handed over over the reigns to the corporate world that we talked about. Now so did the complete opposite for, opposite for their countries. How are they better than Putin in.

[A]

Any shape and form? Just, just so that I can put this on record. I don't, I don't view Bush, Cheney as better than Putin at all. At all. In fact, they were able with their GDP and power to cause more damage than, than, than, than. That is. I, I don't, I know, don't. I don't disagree with that. I, I think we have massive, massive problems in our bureaucracy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And leadership here today. That is On a level that it, I don't think it's ever been.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'd like to think that's fixable. And, yeah, there's a, there's a lot on the bone that you just said. And I'm trying to process this because.

[B]

I know it's not the most popular thing. Right. Like, you just.

[A]

But, like, I, I've been doing this a long time. Time. And I'm gonna do it for a long time after this. And I'm always trying to get better at what I do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think that.

[B]

By the way, it's crazy to me that, you know, who named Tov is like, you know that. How many people don't? And I'm, like, trying to keep his memory alive.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Like, it's crazy. Yeah.

[A]

I was the guy trying to tell people about Putin in 2016 and.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And no one listened.

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

You know, know, I think, I think today. And by the way, I think, Elizabeth, I, I just want to respond to some of this because there's a, there's a lot you just put out there, I think today in this discussion so far, however far we are in, you know, maybe like an hour, 50 minutes or something, I think that I'm going to look at this tape and see a ton of mistakes in how to handle certain things that I have made on my end. This has not been a good day for me. But that's not your fault. That's my.

[B]

I think it was an amazing day for you.

[A]

What are you talking about? I, I don't, I don't. I, I think there's, I think there were a couple times where I jumped the gun on your argument that wasn't fair to you. And I also think there were multiple times where there are hypocrisies within my own country that I know in my head that I didn't lead without front that should be led with. So that if you're going to make a point, you don't throw a stone from a glass. Sure. People are going to let me hear it on that. And I understand that. I look at these arguments online and I see, because I, like, I, I, I want to stay with this point and have you be able to flesh all this out about Putin. You just did a lot. But there's a lot more on the bone here. I see two camps that form online, people that say you're either a Putin puppet. I called them before.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I'm sure you'll get called it again today. And I'm not sure saying that, that's, that's. That. That's fair. I'm saying I'm sure you'll get called that.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm fine with that.

[A]

And then you will see people in the other direction, whatever the opposite of.

[B]

That is, that glorify.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And like that. Yeah. That's not right either.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What the full truth is on anything. None of us do. I can go off of things that define people as bad and then also live in a world where they, they are still in power. So I have to deal with that right now. People. I'll give you another example, because I think this is an important distinction, unfortunately, whether you like it or I like it. I certainly don't. Money does run the world. And when you look at Putin, when they make the comparisons between him and Hitler, that is wrong. Is wrong. And I will. And I will. There's two main reasons for that. He wasn't as bad as Hitler and killing people. People. I have plenty of problems with Putin in that department, but he was no Hitler. Secondly, Vladimir Putin's country has a GDP the size of Italy, whether you like that or not.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Germany had the fastest growing GDP in the world. They were taking over countries, breaking every treaty around the world, starting wars on three fronts, and eventually four. Like, it was a completely different situation. So you have to look at that scope. You can say you don't like Putin. You can say you hate that. You think he's a murderous psychopath. And I would agree with you with that. But, like, you have to understand that he is a. He is a piece on the table. And you can't just wave your wand and get him out of there as much as you may want to, because you then give him exactly what he wants. You give him saying, look, the west is trying to overthrow all of us. They're the people that run the world. They're the bad guy here. I have to be able to kill these people. I have to be able to take down those apartments, departments. I have to be able to start these wars. I have to be able to, you know, and not to say every war he started. I have to be able to, you know, hold on to power for 25 years because I'm the only guy that can do it. And by the way, someone that would come in would definitely be way worse than me. You give him all the ammunition to do that. When you take the diplomatic right actions that have been taken. Here's the Soviet Union. I will agree with, with that. What I Do want to say to you just before you respond, is that when this isn't your fault, but seeing as you're from Georgia, which is not Russia, to be clear, you're from Georgia, you moved here. That's great. You live here, you renounce your citizenship in Georgia, you claim to love it here, and that's awesome. People can cherry pick what you say when you are so strong. Like, actually, I understand Putin and he's good guy. Like, I'm not even saying this is your fault, but you can play right into the hands of the people who want to discredit you because they're like, oh, well, she's got it.

[B]

I have one thing to say. I don't give a, you know why. I'm going to say what the truth is and what I know to be the truth. And they can discredit me all day. They've been trying for, from the day I did the interview in Georgia, which I'll tell you about. And this how the system works. I guarantee you there will be a ton of comments where I'm racist. I'm a Russian puppet. Yeah, them.

[A]

I mean it. Like, look, it's, it is people. And that's the beauty of the freedom of the Internet. People can say whatever they want and they're going to have their opinions. It doesn't affect me. It doesn't affect you. Like, you know where your heart is at. You know what it's about. I do feel like sometimes, you know, like the ant, like world culture was inside, insane on every level. Like, you're not allowed to say words, which is just crazy to me. I, I, I think I worry that. And this isn't, this isn't what you're saying, by the way, to be clear, I'm talking about a separate conversation here. But I, I always worry about the antidote to anything, right? Because sometimes it feels like things are, we're being used against ourselves online to draw ourselves into different cultural corners and to notice, notice differences across all different groups and rally around just our group and things like that. And I don't think it, I don't think it means like, oh, people are racist or anything like that. I think we're, we're being preyed upon with our worst fears sometimes. And what I, what I try to do is, like, I'm sure I fail sometimes, but, like, I do my best with this show to be like, look at all the different people around the world who are doing cool. Different. I do all different, different topics. I do all different types of people, all different Backgrounds, like, you ain't gotta agree with all of it. You. You don't. But you're gonna learn different perspectives. And it's like, it's like that. I've cited this a million times. It's like the old Bruce Lee Lee quote. Take what's good, discard what's bad, get on with your life. You know what I mean? That's. That's what I try to do with people. And I think that the judgment that is. That is cast automatically where people are assuming the worst intentions is very, very dystopian and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

1984Ish sometimes.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Do you. Do you feel like maybe that's intentional or it's just a product of brainwash?

[A]

I think it's both.

[B]

Both.

[A]

I think there's people who intentionally pull the strings, like the puppeteer, to do that. And then I think that. I don't think. Think of the smartest person you know out there, everyone listening. Even the brightest person, you know, is not, not, not susceptible to being pulled into a cult, like structure or being brainwashed with something. We are all susceptible to it. Of course, myself included there. Like, you know, I. I think that the Internet makes that easier than ever. And you have accounts that. That aren't even real, that are being wielded by every country, including ours.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, to create. It's. It's just a giant, like, blob of noise propaganda to war at all times from every angle. And it's just like.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Turn that thing off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Get it out of here. I don't want to know. I don't care. I'll talk with people, meet them where they are, and we'll let it land where it lands. That's kind of how I look at.

[B]

It, you know, that's how it should be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I think that's awesome.

[A]

Can I run to the bathroom real fast?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's gonna pay. We'll be right back. All right, we're back. So we actually haven't talked about this yet today, but you've been in. Been. We mentioned at the beginning. We just haven't gone into it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've been in the courtroom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For the Tyler Robinson thing. Post Charlie Kerr. Because you live out in Salt Lake, right?

[B]

I live in Salt Lake, which is the, you know, people these. Salt Lake so much. I don't know whether it's like Mormons. They decide. Whatever. Great people. So I. I love Salt Lake. It's. It's. It's so good. But, yeah, I was there. I Live there. And of course, the. The very first hearing that I attended, it was so weird. Weird. So get this. I thought, this is a high profile case. Would you say it's a high profile case.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Thank you. So would you expect ton of people to show up?

[A]

Probably. Right.

[B]

Well, that's what I expected. I got there early, I went up, and there's maybe, like, give and take. Obviously, I didn't count, but maybe 20 people there. That's it. Journalists.

[A]

This is state court.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm like, okay, why. Why are. Why is it just us? Why is it like. Like, lines of people trying to get in? So that's awkward.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But. All right, let's move on. Right? We go in. They are like, no phones. Phones in the pocket. I'm like, well, I don't have pockets and I don't have. You know, I don't. I don't have a. A purse. I never have a purse. Like, rarely. Right. Like, sorry, bag. I do have a purse, but it's small parts, so I'm like, I have nothing to put this in, so. Because the. The. What they told us was, if we see a phone in your hands, you're out. Why so strict?

[A]

Is that.

[B]

That's.

[A]

Is that.

[B]

I don't know. I don't understand. I don't know. Legal. But. Well, it's a public trial, right? Like, it's a public thing, so you would think that there should not be a problem. And their excuse was, well, we don't want to make a circus out of it. Like, no. No filming, no nothing. Okay. No one's filming. Can I just freaking have a phone, like, on me? So I had to, like, put my phone in between my legs and hide it. What if they saw that I have it in my. My hand or something? Right?

[A]

Yeah. Now it's on camera. You admitted it. Oh.

[B]

Oh, what are they gonna do, like.

[A]

You know, come arrest you?

[B]

Yeah. If them. So anyway, the. The point is, I had. So they said, you will be outsted. Right? I'm sitting there listening. The. The whole Tyler Robinson Persona was weird. Like, the guy never moved. I said this multiple times. Like he was there, like a zombie. You watch the tape, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Recording.

[A]

Dead. Dead, but behind the eyes.

[B]

Completely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. And he states his name and he's like. And that's it. And nothing else. And within. I don't remember exactly what time it was. If I had my phone on me, I would probably know.

[A]

But what about that watch? Right. Right there?

[B]

This is actually not working. You're like, yeah, you Keep the watch if you like the clock out there.

[A]

It hasn't told the time in forever. It's just there for the.

[B]

There. Yeah. I love how it looks. So it's there. Yeah. So. So I, I don't know exactly how long it was, but it felt 15 to 20 minutes max of entire thing. So then they take a recess.

[A]

This is just the first hearing.

[B]

First hearing. Yeah. So and by like just being at a first hearing, I assumed, okay, so we're gonna break the case with judge is gonna talk. Like this is going to happen, right? Yeah, like maybe 15 to 20 minutes. That's what it felt like. And then they were like, okay, we're taking a recess. I'm like, what? Like, what do you mean? I didn't understand any.

[A]

Like, what did they Discuss in the 15, 20 minutes?

[B]

Like what was the. They presented. They presented a case. Case. They presented what he was accused of and seemed like, I don't remember exact quote, but like this is where we found out that they were going for the death penalty. Right. So that was it. Like nothing else. He didn't have a lawyer back then. Keep in mind, like he didn't have.

[A]

A lawyer at all. Oh.

[B]

So he, he. They were looking for his. Or this is like a very first hearing. Right. So he, he was in prison. All in virtual. Right. He was not in person. But another weird thing was there were no relatives of Tyler Robinson.

[A]

That part, that part surprises me less.

[B]

You, you're thinking, don't bring the parents because it will become a spectacle or something.

[A]

They would want to come. I think they would probably be so. Yeah, so, so shell shocked. This is just the first hearing I, I could. That one surprise surprises me less.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Continue.

[B]

Yeah, so I mean I, I could understand that. And when I spoke to. So I work, work with like people. Well, I know a lot of former FBI guys. I know a lot of former SEALs, CIA, CIA peeps like you know, buckets of them. So. And they are all the same by the way. They, they all think they are different, but they are also similar. Like, you know, sociopathic, narcissistic. Narcissistic line. All of this stuff. It's there. I'm sorry. So. But anyway, they all said the, the people like from FBI, former FBI guys that I know, I called up my detective as well. Like lead detective, NYC pd. So I was like, would you like what would happen with the parents? Because I'm not aware of this stuff. Right. What, what authorities would like to do in these cases, like high profile cases. So was like, what would you do with the family. And he was like, I'm. He said the same thing as you. Like, I'm not surprised they were not there. Like, I would advise against it to go and like sit there. Right. So I get that part. Even though if I was a mother, I would be there. If I was a mother, I wouldn't care. I would be there to support my kid. Right.

[A]

It's hard to. It's really hard for me to put myself in the parent shoes. I can't even imagine, you know, this is not long after as well as it's like, yeah, maybe you would. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

So. Yeah. And what was the most unusual part was the fast recess.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Why. Why are we going to recess again? What's up? Like, why give us everything? And then another unusual part was like, okay, recess means you're going to continue. Right? So I'm coming back or something. They were like, no, you're. You're free to go. We were like, what? So why dismiss journalists and not let them back in?

[A]

So they conducted more parts of the.

[B]

Hearing, as I understand. Yes. Because they said that we're going to take a recess. That means they're going to come back. Right. So why not include us there?

[A]

So they didn't let you back in.

[B]

And I thought I was like, did I mishear something like that? So I'm walking with another journalist who was like walking behind me. I was like, like, so that's it. They are not going to let us back in. And she goes like, yeah. So I'm like, okay. So we just. I just left. So. Yeah. I mean, the whole case is weird. I'm pretty sure, you know.

[A]

Oh, it's weird.

[B]

It's weird. Yeah. So I had young Carol, an amazing dude, by the way, who's been on my show. Oh, he has. Oh yeah, yeah. He's awesome. He's a great channel. And he's like following this much closer than I am. Cuz I took a different route. Yeah. Yan is following every single video. Like everything that, that there does turn.

[A]

Over a lot of rocks.

[B]

Right. And. And that's great. Right. So he's on it on this like a hawk. And recently he had that whole Mike McCoy thing going. Right. Like you. You've watched that.

[A]

Is this the. He was the chief of staff who was on the phone behind it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's. What's a little strange to me is how strong his dad is being about it. His dad wasn't there. That's. That's weird. I think, you know, the one part about this whole thing, because it's weird. The whole thing is. I mean, we'll go, we'll go into it, but, like, how people react to something like that can vary a lot. You know, the kid and I watched the video of him. The kid was on the phone and he just, like, turned around and then was, like, walking away way. And, you know, maybe it's serreptitious or maybe like, he's like, what the. Did I just see? And his, his body is flighting away from it. What I just found really weird, though, was how the, the dad.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

Right. Like, can you tell people what the dad was saying and what the difference was there?

[B]

So the dead really screwed his son over, in my opinion, because as I understand, Mike McCoy had told Al. I don't remember what outlet, but I think it was Washington Post or something like that. He told them that he was on the call with Erica Kirk. Right. So he was talking to Erica Kirk. Well, his father comes out and says, within a minute, my son called me and he was covered in blood. Yeah, like, I don't know, Julian, I might be blind, but did you see any blood on his. Him?

[A]

Unless he. I. I didn't see him get in the car afterwards. Maybe, Maybe he did. I don't. I don't know.

[B]

Well, he was never in the car. Right. When he, When Frank came out and named. Who was in the car with.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that guy. He didn't name.

[B]

So, no, Mike was not in the car, as I understand. And he was also. When they loaded Charlie in the, in the car, he was walking away.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. Okay, okay, okay, let's play devil's advocate. Let's say he was shocked. Okay, he was shocked. Or. Or let's say he's a coward. He was shocked and he's a coward. And he didn't want to be in the line of the bullet or whatever. Okay, great. Why lie afterwards? Why, when everything is safe and Charlie's rushed in a way, Charlie's rushed to the car. Why not check on him? Why not be rushing there? Why not be helping? So that's where the case falls apart, right? His own case, where he says, like, well, I was just afraid and, you know, I. I needed to get away. Okay, what? After, when Charlie's in the car, go check on him?

[A]

What's up with that, dad? That's what I'm saying. Like, who's lying?

[B]

I think both of them.

[A]

Is it just the dad? Is it both? Is it him? It's weird. No, Matter what.

[B]

Oh, for sure. It's weird because either way, his dead story doesn't line up. Right. So if, if he's talking to his dad. Well, like when you look at the footage, he's already on the phone with someone. Somebody, Right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So he, he did not call. Exactly. So he didn't call. Within a minute, he was already on the phone. So that's a lie. Right. So then you would think that what, the, the guy didn't hear the gunshot in the, in the call, like, of course. Okay, let's say he's deaf. He's old. He's deaf. He didn't hear it. Why say within a minute? What, what are you winning with that?

[A]

Do you think, do you think, think it's possible for that, that he. When you say like, oh, within minute or within two minutes, was actually really within three, which we don't even have that video. His son may have hung up that first call and then called his dad.

[B]

Could be.

[A]

Which then also, to be fair, does not explain. Oh, he was soaked in blood or all this stuff. Like, I, again, I don't know why the guy. I couldn't figure out why the guy came out and was saying all that.

[B]

Yeah. Because I think what he wanted to do, quite honestly, is portray his son as a human hero and he was.

[A]

Why? Like, you know what I mean?

[B]

Good question. So if you were, and I'm not saying they are, I'm just like, hypothetically.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you were a villain, what first instinct of yours would be?

[A]

Project yourself as the hero.

[B]

Thank you. Yeah, that's all I'm saying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

See?

[A]

Could be, could be, could be.

[B]

We could be wrong. We could be one.

[A]

There's a lot of things this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean, I, I'm just at a point with it where.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I do think people are running with things as fact online, which.

[B]

Is not, not a fact.

[A]

Like, I, I had my friend Brian Enten in here. I think that episode will come out, like, right in front of yours and like, he'll get a lot of. For how he's reporting on it, but he's just reporting what he sees. Right. And he's not going beyond that. And he's also reporting what people are saying. You and I can sit here and be like, I think that guy's lying or whatever. He's not going to do that. That's fine with me. I think that you also have to be very open to the idea, as in like, almost like kind of assume it, that the story we've been told not to say Tyler Robinson's not involved. But the story we've been told up kid on top shot him 3,006. Down, out, over. Like, what faith have we been given at this point, right, from people around the investigation to ever assume that that's the full story, right? It doesn't seem that way. And, like, if I were running a PR campaign on the aftermath of this, I would never do any of the things that they've done. I would like to think I would never do it. Right. I mean, like, the optics, right, are awful.

[B]

Absolutely. And the problem is, like, they are so angry. Like, I. I know this for a fact because when I did my interview you with Tucker, like, they just went freaking nuts online. And I'm like, I've never seen anything like that. We were. We were not even. Like, we only touched on Charlie, like, couple of times. And all of a sudden I've got all these trolls, like, anti Semite, anti Semite. And they realized afterwards that, oh, wait a second, she actually works with Jewish people. We can't do that. So then I became a Russian puppet. So, like, it's crazy, but I just didn't realize, like, I was. I took a screenshot and send it to Tucker, and Tucker was like, that bothers you?

[A]

Of course. What is. What is. Actually, you don't have to answer this, especially if it's, like, off record or private conversations, but based on what's public domain. Because I haven't really seen him talk about it. I'm sure he has, but I just haven't seen it. What. What. What does Tucker make of the investigation? Because, like, he was. He was friends with Charlie Kirk. It's. It's personal for him.

[B]

I would imagine so. Definitely personal. I'm not gonna talk about, like, for Tucker, so Tucker should say that himself. But what he told me, like, in the interview, it's out there. Is very simple. If the FBI doesn't do a sufficient investigation, people should go bonkers. That's what he said. And I agree.

[A]

I agree, too.

[B]

And the reason we are here, me and you talking about this, is because they have not done sufficient investig. If they had, then we wouldn't be here.

[A]

You're too busy up in Valhalla, right? Funniest thing.

[B]

You know, I. I want to ask you a question now.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

What's up with. I asked this to everyone that had any relationship with Keshe Patel. And then Mangino. These are two people that I really admired, like, when they. They were out, right? Like, these are two people that said the Right. Things like, I was like, oh my gosh, like, Cash is going to direct the FBI finally. Like, you know, diaper is going to change. You know, something's going to. And we are sitting with Charlie Kirk's murder. Murder. And they are telling us the biggest I've ever heard. Even at some point, like rfk, like murder makes sense, but not this. This.

[A]

What?

[B]

And doesn't it strike you odd that Tyler Robinson is like, secret and hidden from everybody?

[A]

Yeah, every. There's. There's really nothing about this that strikes me as normal. They, they, you know, they paved over the whole scene, I think within like five days. Put like a water fountain there.

[B]

I actually went up and checked on it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why are they changing everything? Like, that's the thing. Like, what is going on? They, they changed the roof to the thing as well. Like the roof.

[A]

Yeah. I'll tell you one thing that's really sticking with me is the lack of autopsy. Because, yes, we all saw on camera, multiple.

[B]

Well, they said they did an autopsy. Just the Utah law conveniently says that it doesn't have to come out.

[A]

Yeah, that's, that's what I'm saying. Like, like the, the, the. The lack of public transparency, that's in the best interest there for us to be able to see. Because what the autopsy will show is, you'll see, you know, a diagram picture where they have the, you know, basically like the lines that show the angle it goes in.

[B]

And people, you know, they're not stupid.

[A]

They'll be able to let that in the public domain. And the expert's gonna. Expert at that point. I don't understand why they won't release. Release that.

[B]

You want to talk about the bullet? Let me tell you something cool. So everyone's. And this is like. So they're talking about conspiracy theories. So when this happened, like, everyone just went like, crazy about, oh, he was wearing a, like bullet proof vest or whatever. And the. Tyler obviously had the gun in the pants. Like, so when I get on a case to investigate as an investigative journalist, like, the first thing I do is separate. I, I separate the noise from what, what, what's real. Right. Excuse my language. Everyone could see the nipples, Charlie's nipples. He's not wearing the vest. Let's move on. Like, why are we still talking about it? Right? Skinny jeans picture, Tyler Robinson. We know how. No way there's a gun. Move on. But here's the problem. Once you move on from that, like, me and Ian talked about this, like, the skinny jeans and gun. Okay, so then if he didn't have the gun in the pants then did he even use that gun? What was that? Even the gun that was used. Used as a. Because that's how we know. Like, he. He walked with it, hid it, right? Like, then how do you know it was the gun?

[A]

The.3006 bullet is what's really getting me. And I am not a ballistics expert.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's someone that I'm gonna have in who I really want to discuss this. Who is. But from what I have been told from people who are. And please fill in the comments here. If you are a ballistics expert, the idea that. That from 200 yards, a 3006 bullet would be shot and have a direct hit on the neck and not literally blow the head off. I mean, it was a violent shot, don't get me wrong.

[B]

But like, special obsess, what you just.

[A]

Said, everybody, that's a little bizarre. And also, you know, optically speaking here, right? When Andrew Colvette, who was like the producer for Charlie Kirk, went to write out that tweet about talking with the surgeon. Surgeon, where he's like, the surgeon said that Charlie was truly superman and the bullet would have gone through anyone else, even if for some reason that were true. And I don't think it is, even if it were. That's one of those. Like, when you're a kid, your parents teach you to count to five before you press send. That's one of those. You write it out and you go into a quiet room with no phones near you. You and read it out loud to yourself and ask yourself this question, is this in any way helping this case? Just start there. The answer is immediately no. If you have an IQ even at room temperature. And then you ask yourself the question, is this going to cause us bigger problems? And once again, the answer is immediately yes, if you have a room temperature or below iq. And the fact that he wrote that tweet and actually pressed send end. It was magic bullet all over again. And it's like. And by the way, he was saying it in like a. You know, they've been like, religiousizing. That's not a word. But his death, he was saying it in this, like, prophetic way, like Charlie was. And I'm. I'm paraphrasing here, people, but it was like, Charlie was truly touched by God that this bullet wouldn't go through Malaka.

[B]

He's dead, right? He didn't.

[A]

He didn't, like, rise from the dead or, like, suddenly, like, get shot and be like, here's the Bullet. I'm good, fam. He's dead. Like, it wasn't a miracle. He died a horrible death. We all watched it. He left a family behind. This is. This is a person. Like, it's not a miracle. Like, I don't give a fuck if the bullet went through to fucking Vietnam.

[B]

Right?

[A]

He's dead.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

Like what?

[B]

It just.

[A]

It's just been frustrating. Everyone involved is just frustrating. Yeah.

[B]

Have you heard of this theory? Now they are trying to. Like, this is where it's just so. It gets so stupid. Like now they are saying, well, you know what? It was a conspiracy. It was.

[A]

But who's saying that?

[B]

Like, there are theories out there. There are people saying, oh yeah. And I don't know where it originated, but I can guess. They're saying it was a conspiracy theory, but it was all leftists. It was not just Tyler, but it was like all of them got together. Okay, so. So okay, there was a conspiracy by some leftist idiots, like whatever demonic people and wanted to kill Charlie. And FBI is so dumb that they don't know about it. Why would they cover up just a bunch of idiot devil worshippers? Like, what are you talking about?

[A]

So what if. Here's one. I. I don't even think I've thought of this. But you're. You're making me think of this now. What if like they really up here and they should have known it was coming and they found out they. They should have known it was coming and now they've just been cover their tracks.

[B]

Could be a case. Honestly, nothing would surprise me when. When it gets to FBI. Like who said it to me? I think it was Tucker who said, like, you know how like you think FBI is corrupt, right? It's three times worse than you think. Like it's. It's how it is and it doesn't matter whether it's Keshe Patel Dimpengino, like they are still in the system. They cannot clean up anything. Like, it doesn't work that way. And the major question here though, okay, so we know they killed him. Do you have any like suspicious that they didn't and it was just Tyler Robinson, like, would you. Would you agree that it was a conspiracy?

[A]

The correct answer right now is technically, I don't know. But again, the way they've said, oh, Tyler Robinson, he just shot the bows at 3006. Nothing else to see here Again, doesn't add up for me. I also think we're never going to know the truth on the this unfortunately.

[B]

You know, I'm more optimistic about this. I think nobody can prove Kennedy's case anymore, even though I could. I told you this when we started. I can give you all the names. Like I, I'm pretty sure David could too, and many others. But the proof won't be there because these people had. I mean, Bush headed the CIA. You think he's going to leave anything behind, not shredded, that implicates him or his family? Family, of course not. Even though he's implicated. So here's what I think about Charlie. I think if people play their cards right on this one, this might be the, the one and original case scenario where people can solve this case. Like I, I think that it's doable.

[A]

The fact that it was in the modern day and it's on video.

[B]

Right.

[A]

From at least four different angles.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then, you know, a couple angles that have an SD card that was handed over the FBI, you know, it's different. It's different. And there, there could be, but it also. The greatest way to cover something up is to create a chaotic scene.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Because it's easy to hide in chaos. And I just, you know, that was such a. A. We, we were on air when it happened. I was in here with the religion business guys and we, and we all, we literally stopped to go to the bathroom real quick right when it happened. And de was like, oh my God. And then we got right back on air and you know, it just, the whole thing sent us a chill down my spine because it's a real Rubicon being crossed. No matter, no matter who did it. It's a Rubicon being crossed where someone with a extremely prominent following, right? And say in the political sphere, whether you agree with their opinions or not, was shot and killed for something in their beliefs.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And the fact that there are some people that can't see what an awful precedent that is in the modern age, it blows my mind, right? You know, this is not something that should be shoved under the rug or forgotten. It should be investigated six ways to Sunday. It should be citizen investigated six ways to Sunday. You know, we, we deserve to know the truth here and we just don't know the truth on everything. But it is, it is. This one was just, it was particularly spooky for me.

[B]

Yeah. And you know what I want to say about this real quick. So. So Charlie dies, right? And then these people never do by these people again. Like CIA gets all the crap, but let's throw in nsa like they are no less than CIA when it gets to, you know, terrible shit. And People completely disregard Navy intelligence and their, you know, paramilitary group. So it could be any of them, really. Like, it could be any of them working with whoever. So the, the interesting thing is they never do anything just for one. One outcome. Right. So they, when they do something with. It's like, you know, allowing 9, 11, which I believe they allowed. There was a pre. Pre knowledge of it. Like, there's. We're not going to go into it, but. Yeah, yes, definitely not. So but whether it's that Iraq war, whatever it is, right. It's never for just one goal. So it's like we're gonna get this, this, and this out of it. Okay, so what did they get. Get with Charlotte? It's very simple. Examples. Charlie was bringing people together, people who were completely divided into like he was a like unifier or whatever you want to call it, right. So all of a sudden they. They killed a figure that is very dangerous in the future. Maybe not now, but in just like, what was he, 20 something? Like, can you imagine?

[A]

Yeah, 31.

[B]

Yeah. So like, can you imagine when Charlie's like in his 60s, like how much work he could. Could have done? He was uniting people together. That's one. So definitely needs to go, right? Because us cannot be united, then we think, you know, we become stronger standing together.

[A]

Divided society is a compliant society.

[B]

Exactly like divide and conquer. So that's one second. Of course you win the, the whole Israel thing because he's. He's about to divert. Like you kill him. And then you can man manipulate the narrative. And people say, well, you know, people still don't. Yeah, but they try to manipulate the narrative. Remember, Benjamin Netanyahu comes out right after this happens and starts talking about how Charlie loved Israel. What are you doing, dude? What are you doing?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they try to hijack the narrative to. To make it seem like Charlie died as a. As a whole Israeli lover or something like. Like that. Right. In reality and Israel. We should not talk about Israel as a country. Let's talk about Benjamin Natan. It's total different concept. Okay, so Benjamin Netanyahu seems like, plays it as they were friends, you know, I invited, blah, blah, blah. Try to hijack the narrative. Tell me what you think. Would he not be successful if not four? Candace Owens, Tucker Collins, Nelson, and in a way, Megyn Kelly. Take these three out of the occasion for a second. What would we know today? That what Charlie was. What Charlie was best friends with Netanyahu. And so the narrative that he wanted to plant would be implemented.

[A]

I think the most interesting quote or anecdote right to Charlie's death that has gone largely ignored was actually with Dave Smith.

[B]

Smith said, oh, did you hear that? No.

[A]

Okay, so Dave Smith, I believe he went on like a stream with Sneako few days after Charlie's assassination. And Dave Smith was invited by Charlie to speak at a Turning Point conference where he was debating this other guy, I think Josh Hammers his name, who's pro Israel guy on stage. And that was towards the end of July, I went to say. And so Dave, I believe, had never been in person meeting Charlie Kirk at that point. And so Dave has explained this. He's like, you know, I spent an hour with the guy and we start talking and we're getting into it for like 15 minutes. And he said, the thing about your favorite political commentators, I hate to break it to you, is most of them don't read books. He's like, I read books. It was very clear within 15 minutes, Charlie, ready, kids Books. We were talking about all different types of, you know, literature across the board. And now.

[B]

And.

[A]

And so it got to a point where I was like, oh, okay, all right, Charlie, you're a smart guy, right? Like, you get it. You know, what's going on here over in Israel. What the. Why are you so on it? And Charlie, the way he described it is. Charlie went, no, listen, listen, my faith is my number one thing. To me, the Israeli government protects the Christian site sites. If the Muslims took over the country and it was a radical group that did it, they would probably destroy them. And I care about those sites more than anything, which he said it just like that, according to Dave Smith. And then Dave was like, okay, well, can we do that without the genocide or whatever? He's like, ah. And he, you know, and he was like, hemming and hauling on it. What was so clear to me, though, is that it was a complete nonchalant administration admission that Charlie, in my opinion, for right or wrong, this is just like it's seemingly a fact, never gave a. About, like the things he expressed out loud about the Israeli government or whatever, or claimed to tie to the Bible or whatever. It was a transactional agreement for him, for his faith, where he prioritized it. And so it would make sense that someone of faith finally got to a point where he couldn't support a government's actions where. Where women and children were being killed, right. To such an extent that he finally would have had a breaking point on that. And I think that is absolutely something that should be looked at here. And to your point, you know, Benjamin Netanyahu's pr whatever after Charlie's death was some of the worst executed PR I've ever seen in my life. And it's like, you know, as someone who's really studied that guy's whole life for years, until very recently, I'd say probably until the last two or three years. Benjamin Netanyahu as a politician was a William Jefferson Clinton level politician, a political genius. He has completely lost his fastball. He has no concept of where he stands. He has less than zero self awareness. He is making. It's like watching a, you know, someone who's deaf conduct an orchestra. All due respect to death people, I don't mean to shout at you guys. I'm just saying, like, it's. And probably there's a great composer out there who was able to do that well, but like, you know what I mean? It's like I completely disaster class at all times. And so you cannot look at those two things and not say, well, is there a question to ask there? Sure there is. Of course there is. He was clearly having a moral conundrum there. And what's funny is when I would have conversations with people over the last two years, really trying to talk about this issue and the insane, you know, arguments and nuances, whatever the fuck you want to call it in the Middle east coast conflict. I would always cite the October 12, I believe it was October 12, 2023 interview with Charlie Kirk on PBD where he came out and said that. I remember the day he said that. And I was like, that's the most pro Israel young guy on the right side saying that. And remember when he like looked to the sky, he's like, I'm be careful how I say this. They're going to ethnically claim. And I was just like. I remember watching out, like, yep. And yet you don't think that same guy would be wrestling with the morality when there's two more years of, you know, a brutal war that's having some awful, awful downstream effects killing people? Of course he would. Of course he would.

[B]

Can you imagine how brave like you have to be to be Charlie and say that? Like, when you are surrounded by the people that he was surrounded, which is like all pro Israeli people, right? And all of a sudden he knows, goes, but he, he was no stupid guy, okay? He knew that after that there would be a war and he accepted that. Like, this is what I love about this. You asked me like, why do you say they're gonna call you Russian puppet? I don't care. Bring it on, bro. Bring it on.

[A]

Well, it's. It is, man. It's getting interesting out here. And I. I just, you know, foreign. It's hard for people, especially when you have just access, to go online and get mad all the time.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, it's. It's hard to put some things aside, but, you know, we also gotta be. Yeah, we gotta be careful with how we talk about things. There was a tweet I saw today from Elon Musk that like, you know, is clearly just. He's typing quickly on his phone and not thinking about it. I don't want to sit here and, like, demonize. But he's like, I believe the exact quote was, civil war in Britain is inevitable. And it's like, dude, you're the second richest guy in the world with one of the largest followings in the world. A top five name recognition. Yeah, there's problems in Britain right now. I'm not denying that. Right, that's not helping. Yeah, we got to be really careful with how we talk about these things because the people. Who, by the way, is Elon going to be out there on the front lines fighting that fucking war?

[B]

Of course not.

[A]

No, he won't. He'll be. He'll be sitting playing with the Starlink while people play with it and die down below. And I'm not ripping him for that, but, like, right, you have to. We. We gotta stop fanning the flames on everything. And I know that's hard, and I know it's unpopular. Sometimes people get mad. I've. I've lived in a country that's gone from George Floyd to Charlie Kirk. I mean, you want to talk about a whipamarole, and I've been doing this the whole time, you know, but, like, we gotta, you know, look outside, touch grass, go to the. Go to the bodega, hold the door open for someone who looks like they might have different opinions from you. Things are going to be okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and. And I believe in what this country is built on. I do think elites have let us down. I think the government and bureaucracy have let us down. I think that stuff should be called out and we'll do it. And, you know, we'll have on people like you to do that for sure. But we also got to do it in a way where we're trying to fix the problem and not just, you know, open up the artery here at all times and bleed out.

[B]

I agree with you. I couldn't agree more. I think Elon's knowing Elan's personality probably did it because he's worried about it. And I don't think he did it maliciously.

[A]

I agree. I don't think it was malicious.

[B]

But yeah, sometimes I agree with you. That thought needs to go into it. Like this is why talking about Charlie and I'm not going to continue more on this. But like I also believe that things, it just needs to be said. You just have to think about how you want to word it. Right. Because sometimes like we, me and you like got into argument in a good way. Like we sometimes like we don't understand each other. And it's not that we didn't agree, we talked about this like on, on a bathroom, bathroom break. Break that we agree. We just didn't understand each other most of the time. Right. Like about certain issues. Yeah.

[A]

Elizabeth, thanks for being a good sport today.

[B]

Thank you so much for inviting me.

[A]

This has been a wide ranging conversation and sure, this was not my best day for sure. But you did a great job and I appreciate you. Thank you bringing all your perspectives here.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

All right, everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Hey guys, thank you as always for watching this episode. If you have not already, please hit that subscribe button as well as that like button on the video. It is a huge, huge help for us in the algorithm and I'll see you guys for the next episode. It's okay not to be perfect with finances. Experian is your big financial friend and here to help. Did you know you can get matched with credit cards on the app? Some cards are labeled no Ding decline which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. Download the Experian app for free today. Applying for no Ding decline cards won't hurt your credit scores. If you aren't initially approved, initial approval will result in a hard inquiry which may impact your credit scores.

[B]

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