Julian Dorey on Israel, his Mom, Joe Rogan, Elon Musk & Society's "SCAM"

Summary

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Julian Dorey on Israel, his Mom, Joe Rogan, Elon Musk & Society's "SCAM"

Podcast: Julian Dorey Podcast | QCODE
Host: Julian Dorey
Date: April 23, 2025
Guests: India, Nico

Overview

In this wide-ranging self-hosted episode, Julian Dorey, joined by recurring guest India and contributions from producer Nico, dives deeply into current events, geopolitics, the influence of lobbying in U.S. politics (with a special focus on Israel), the evolving media landscape, gender roles, the impact of generational crises, and the underpinnings of American society’s “scam”—the myths and structures that shape our lives. Using candid, provocative language, Julian and India dissect recent media events involving Joe Rogan, Elon Musk, and Douglas Murray, challenge both right- and left-wing orthodoxies, and reflect on their personal upbringings and generational perspectives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Social Contract" & The Modern American Life Script

[00:00, 57:23]

• Julian dissects the "plan" sold to American youth: do well in school, get a degree, climb the corporate ladder, marry, have kids, and retire—only to find disillusionment and lack of fulfillment.
• This life script, Julian says, was marketed to men after WWII but increasingly to women as well, arguably setting up both for disappointment or forcing them into choices they may not actually want.
• Quote:
  “You have this thing where you’re a kid and you’re told, all right, go get decent grades. … You come out and you go into a respectable industry to get a respectable job... This was something that was sold to men since World War II. It also along the way, started being sold to women...” — Julian [00:00, 59:14]

2. Media, Discourse, and The 'Woke Right'

[01:07, 01:46, 01:59, 03:24]

• India and Julian discuss the rise of the "woke right," referencing a tense Joe Rogan podcast between Douglas Murray and Dave Smith.
• They critique the elitism present in both left and right discourse, and the pitfalls when media figures condescend or fail to engage in good faith.
• The Twitter effect: Confirmation bias and fast-spreading, contextless opinions.
• Quote:
  “There is such thing as the woke right... Big time. Jesus Christ. Woke Right Inc. We have a term for it.” — India [01:46-01:51]
  “He had to walk in there and say, I’m the king of this court now. And, unfortunately, he whiffed.” — Julian [04:57]

3. Free Speech, Israel Lobbying, and the AIPEC Problem

[05:18, 08:17, 09:35]

• India highlights the paradoxical reaction to criticisms of foreign countries on US campuses and the problematic conflation of protest with domestic terrorism.
• Julian unpacks the mechanics of AIPAC (“American Israel Political Action Conference”), defending Israel's strategic interests but condemning the lack of American safeguards against foreign lobbying.
• He forcefully denounces the Netanyahu government, recognizes suffering in Gaza, but maintains both Israel's need to exist and the dangers of heavy-handed U.S. involvement or foreign influence.
• Quote:
  “We have to have a serious conversation about why we let that kind of thing happen here because they're going to keep doing that to try to protect the interests of their country. That's exactly what I would do in their position... My problem is that we have not changed that system in America to not allow other countries... to interfere with our politics.” — Julian [09:11]

4. Israel, U.S. Foreign Policy, and Double Standards

[12:32, 13:31]

• Julian traces Israel’s aggressive lobbying back to its founding and the desperation born of the Holocaust and regional hostility.
• Contrasts the visibility of Israeli lobbying with quieter influence from the UK, Canada, etc., and notes Israel's exceptional espionage capabilities.
• Discusses the recurring push for the U.S. to attack Iran, referencing Netanyahu’s rhetoric spanning two decades.
• Quote:
  “They’ve been trying to get the US to go to war with Iran... You can run the tape in 2002 of Netanyahu... lobbying our Congress on C Span: ‘You must go to war with Iraq, you must go to war with Iran.’” — Julian [13:06]

5. Free Speech, Academia, and Immigration Debates

[17:22, 17:44, 18:34]

• The debate over student protests, free speech, and calls to deport visa-holding students for lawful protest.
• India and Julian reject labeling protestors as “Hamas supporters” and warn of chilling effects for free expression.
• Quote:
  “We also shouldn’t immediately market everyone that we, that we decide we don’t like that we're going to deport as a Hamas supporter... there are people who, that's not even what they believe...” — Julian [18:34]

6. Independent Media, Gov’t Influence, Grift & The "SCAM"

[25:00, 26:05, 29:33, 32:11]

• Breakdown of what constitutes true independence in media: no outside funding, no political affiliation, editorial independence.
• Julian and India discuss the dangers of independent media adopting the trappings/risks of the old guard, warning against mainstream “cosmetics.”
• Importance of staying in your lane: Journalists vs. commentators vs. internet personalities.
• Quote:
  “Independent means that if you are going to call yourself an independent journalist…there is no affiliation whatsoever. We know how pendulums of societies are....” — Julian [26:35]
  “If we become the same things that mainstream media became...we’re going to lose people and we’re going to deserve to.” — Julian [29:14]

7. Elon Musk, Joe Rogan, and the Problem of Influence

[41:53, 42:18, 44:49, 45:31, 46:42]

• Open debate about the "right-wing coalition," especially the uneasy, controversial public linkages between Elon Musk, Trump, and Joe Rogan.
• Julian describes the unprecedented power dynamic when the world’s richest man (Musk) can directly pressure/influence the world’s largest podcast and its host’s endorsement in an election.
• Quote:
  “Now you have the owner of a platform, the richest guy in America, going on the biggest podcast platform in the world the day before the election to make his case, which he's allowed to do... but basically pressuring his friend to say something that... Joe's never done that." — Julian [46:42-48:41]

8. Podcasting & The Problem of Intentions vs. Outcomes

[52:48, 54:05]

• The “longform trap”: Friendly, charismatic podcast guests can spin persuasive narratives, sometimes masking bad intentions or glossing over the negative consequences of their actions.
• Quote:
  “You misappropriate their intentions with the consequences of their actions... Don't judge people on their intentions, judge on consequences.” — India [52:48-52:52]

9. Gender Dynamics: The 'Trad Wife' & The Reality of Choice

[54:22, 57:23]

• India introduces the rise of the “tradwife"—women publicly embracing traditional homemaker roles, juxtaposed with economic realities and increased female workforce participation.
• Julian argues for respecting personal choice, celebrates his own mother’s hybrid model (full-time mom and later entrepreneur/teacher), and decries the myth that career is the only path to fulfillment for women.
• They both note that staying home is now an economic luxury, not an easily available option for most families.
• Quote:
  “There are a lot of women whose secret dream is actually to be an amazing mom and depend on the man to go out there and make the money and fund the most important job there is, which is raising our kids... whoever my future wife is, she's going to get to decide whatever she wants to do." — Julian [59:14-61:30]

10. Education, College, and the American Scam

[66:34, 68:32, 69:48]

• The value of college is debated, with a distinction between skills and diplomas; college is not a one-size-fits-all solution, and the push for everyone to attend university (at great cost) is questioned as a modern "scam".
• Alternative models—trade schools, apprenticeships—are praised.
• Quote: “The system is set up to fail. And I think we got to reckon with that sooner rather than later.” — Julian [69:49]

11. COVID’s Generational Impact & American Identity

[70:17, 73:25, 75:01, 77:57]

• Discusses how COVID disrupted socialization, education, and left lingering psychological scars, especially for younger generations.
• India and Julian reflect on shifting worldviews—from the “abundance mindset” of older generations to the “scarcity mindset” prevalent now, shaped by crises: 9/11, the 2008 crash, COVID, ongoing polarization, and massive student debt.
• Quote: “Your outlook to America could be that of abundance, or that of scarcity. Because you can look at America and be like, oh, it's an empty canvas... or you can look... I saw my dad lose his job... I came of age during COVID... now I have college debt.” — India [77:22]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Default Life Script:
  “You come out and you go into a respectable industry to get a respectable job so you can start making money. And this is something that men were always sold...” — Julian [00:00]

• On the 'Woke Right':
  “Jesus Christ. Woke Right Inc. We have a term for it.” — India [01:48]

• On Israel Lobbying & US Laws:
  “AIPAC exists to lobby on behalf of a country... They're doing exactly what I would do in their position... My problem is that we have not changed that system in America...” — Julian [09:11]

• On Pluralism in Israel:
  “Netanyahu's never even won with a plurality... so many fucking parties over there... how many people in the country even support what's going on? A lot of them don't...” — Julian [22:49-23:34]

• On Media Independence:
  “Independent means that... there is no affiliation whatsoever... I am going to maintain my ability to be able to call things like I see it, with having no skin in the game...” — Julian [26:35]

• On Candace Owens/Daily Wire turmoil:
  “I respect you [Julian] because you could have—anyone can grift their way to fame today. The game is so mathematical to play. It takes chutzpah to actually stick to what you want to stick to...” — India [35:30]

• On the Joe Rogan / Elon Musk dynamic:
  “You have the owner of a platform, the richest guy in America, going on the biggest podcast platform in the world... to make his case... and basically pressuring his friend to say something that... Joe's never done that.” — Julian [46:42]

• On Gender Roles and the ‘Tradwife’ Debate:
  "There are a lot of women whose secret dream is actually to be an amazing mom... whoever my future wife is, she's going to get to decide whatever she wants to do.” — Julian [59:14-61:30]

• On College as a Scam:
  "We tell these kids, you know, when they're 17 years old to sign their name to a loan and they don't even know how money works… the system is set up to fail.” — Julian [69:48, 69:49]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• The Default Life Script & “The Scam”: [00:00], [57:23–61:30]
• Rise of the “Woke Right” & Podcast Media Critique: [01:07–05:15]
• AIPAC, Israel, US Policy: [08:17–17:44]
• Free Speech, Immigration, Columbia Protests: [17:22–20:23]
• Independent Media vs Mainstream: [25:00–34:07]
• Elon, Joe Rogan, Influence on Discourse: [41:53–48:41]
• Podcasting’s Limits: Intentions vs Consequences: [52:48–54:05]
• Trad Wives, Feminism, Middle Class Crisis: [54:22–66:32]
• Value of College, Trades, The Scam: [66:34–70:17]
• COVID Generation & American Identity: [70:17–78:09]
• Personal Reflection / Outro: [78:31–79:48]

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Final Reflection & Tone

Julian and guests maintain an intensely direct, sometimes irreverent, but always questioning tone, challenging audience assumptions on politics, media, society’s career/family narratives, and the American prospect itself. The episode stands as a manifesto for constant skepticism—of power, of mainstream dogmas, and of reactionary “alt” narratives. Through humor and self-disclosure, they argue for nuance, media literacy, and a long-term perspective over cheap viral grifting.

Closing Note:
“I know this is my moment to do what I got to do and take that big step into the stratosphere, and I intend to do that... I have always looked at things 10 years out, how does this play 10 years out? ... There are a lot more rational people out there than we give credit for in society who look at things with nuance. … If people are saying [they don’t always agree with me], then I'll know I've done my job the right way." — Julian [79:11]

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Transcript

[Julian]

You have this thing. I'm very passionate. But you have this thing where you're a kid and you're told, all right, go get decent grades. Work hard in school, by the way, have your extracurriculars, you know, be good at a sport. You could stick it on a fucking resume. Get that GPA in college. So you're set up junior year. You take your SAT classes, make sure you get at least, you know, 12, 50 or whatever, you get into a decent school so that your fucking parents can throw you a graduation party and tell all your friends you're not fucking. Then you go to college, you go there, you drink, smoke and fuck. But you get your work done. You have a decent gpa, and you start doing those internships when you're a sophomore and junior, you're in college, and then, boom, you come out and you go into a respectable industry to get a respectable job so you can start making money. And this is something that men were always sold because it's like, okay, we come out, we do that.

[India]

This is like our default settings, right?

[Julian]

Then we start to. We start to find the girl, maybe at 25, 26, 27, but we're working our ass off. We get married at 29, 30, we start popping out kids at 32. Maybe we're a VP of some marketing or whatever it is now. We're making 120k a year in New York. That's enough to walk my dog, take a piss, and clean it up with, you know, whatever saying, this is my.

[India]

Second time listening to.

[Julian]

Hey, guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. Like you said, we've already had five news cycles since he got in here. And that's. That's being conservative. There's been more than that. You know, things change very quickly. And also people can get caught up in the moment. And there is. We were talking about before you got here while we were all recording the Patreon episode, you know, talking about this Douglas Murray, Dave Smith back and forth that happened with Joe Rogan yesterday. It's like, there is such thing as, like, the woke, right?

[India]

Oh, my God, are you kidding me?

[Julian]

Big time.

[India]

Jesus Christ. Walk right Inc. We have a term for it.

[Julian]

We have a term for it. Yeah. Who invented it?

[India]

I don't care who invented it, but it pisses me. It pisses me off.

[Julian]

Like, India wins again. You.

[India]

You brought that up. And I don't know, like, from a fundamental Like, I'm an immigrant and I know Douglas is from the uk As a fundamental rule, it pisses me off that he's coming here and questioning your ability. All things free speech. It's like, oh, you. Why are you talking about it if you haven't been to Israel? By that logic, you. The journalism class shouldn't exist.

[Julian]

Right?

[India]

Yeah. Like. Like, what is that logic? What are you talking about? Yeah, I'm not even talking about Israel, Palestine, anything specific. Just that logic in itself is just so that's actually a British logic. I know that logic because I went to school that I know that logic. It's like, oh, you actually have to go there and you have to talk.

[Julian]

Did you go to people? You didn't go to Egypt?

[India]

I was like, okay. Like, okay, you're not a time traveler. You can at least travel. And it's like, relax. Like, that's not how, like, discourse, journalism, news, like, works. You do your research, you let people know what you think about it. And if people like it, they go with it. If they don't like it, they'll let you know. And we back and forth to debate.

[Julian]

Yes. And I think beyond that, though, what he really blew it with is he had a chance to bring up more. What I'm getting at. Like, you have, you have on one hand, you have that elitism class that exists across the spectrum. Right. And Douglas Murray outed himself if he wasn't out at already as. As clearly in that class. Regardless of, in his case, he's more of conservative guy or whatever.

[India]

Quick, quick point there. Just being part of that is not a pejorative.

[Julian]

What do you mean?

[India]

Like, being part of the elite automatically is not a minus point for me. However, if you use that point as a cudgel against people like Dave Smith or like, let's call it the alternate media, what have you, then I have a problem.

[Julian]

Agreed. So you're not labeling people on just the circumstances of the environment they're from. You're labeling people on how they behave when they're put into an environment where that can be something or not.

[India]

Correct?

[Julian]

Yeah, I like that. I agree 100%. He obviously was a part of the camp that said, I'm of the elite. You've never been. You've never been. You know, he was so, like, it was. It was like, it was like a dramatic play watching him go at Dave Smith with that. And Dave's just a normal dude and, and Douglas can't. He almost can't compete with that. But what Douglas was bringing up when he was defining the woke. Right. Was you have people who now got so pissed at the left that they're questioning and things that happen with establishments and like that righteously. So we're. Now they're questioning everything that ever happened, and they're using, like, a confirmation bias. Oh, to the worst boogeyman of everything. And what sucks is that Douglas went about this in the most condescending way, that he completely blew a great opportunity. That, by the way, Dave Smith and Joe Rogan probably would have agreed with him on a. On some of those issues. Maybe not all of it, but they might have. They might have even been like, wow, actually, yeah, now there is something to be said there. But he had to walk in there and say, I'm the king of this court now. And. And unfortunately, he whiffed. And so now things like that will continue to fester, and people will take their meaning of life and define it on, you know, their favorite tweeters online. And these tweeters say these things that are objectively crazy, and they'll throw things out that are like, evidence that aren't really evidence, but then it spreads really fast because 280 characters has the ability to do that because no one's reading the fucking thread. Let me.

[India]

Let me use the woke.

[Julian]

Right?

[India]

Point to segue to immigration, and what's happening right now.

[Julian]

Okay.

[India]

I was totally in favor when Trump is like, I mean, I live five minutes away from the Roosevelt Hotel, so I know what the fuck is going on across America.

[Julian]

Tell people what that is.

[India]

Roosevelt Hotel in New York City is a place where they house illegal immigrants. And if you do not live in New York City, what's going on in the city is you cannot get on the train without seeing some illegal lady who I have 100 sympathy for, because she's trying to do the best with her kid on her back in, like, a satchel situation, and she's selling, like, orbit or what have you. So that has been going on for two, three years.

[Julian]

Yeah, Joe's buying it.

[India]

But you see something like that, and you're like, okay, something's got a break. And Trump comes in, he talks about this. We got a deport of people who came here illegally, crimes, what have you. However, you are starting with students in Colombia who are writing essays, not criticizing America, criticizing a different country.

[Julian]

Yes.

[India]

How's that? Like, how is that on the priority list?

[Julian]

It's crazy. It's. And. And unfortunately, we were also talking about this, but it's like, my second biggest disappointment with that podcast was that it Wasn't six hours because they were just getting warmed up at three.

[India]

Oh, yeah.

[Julian]

And they did not get to discuss these things.

[India]

No, they're debating about authority.

[Julian]

They didn't get to discuss any of the intelligence aspects and intelligence wars go on. There's certainly a huge topic that everyone in that room is versed in and they get. They didn't get a chance to discuss how. What a boomerang opposite effect what you just mentioned has on society. Yeah. When society sees, you know, you being labeled, the minute you give, in some cases a very righteous criticism of another country, let alone your own, in what's supposed to be a free speech society and that's being legislated, you are now going to create more of those protests that you see at Columbia University and stuff like that. You are going to create the unreasonable people to come out of the woodwork with a reasonable complaint. And I, I've seen this over and over again. It has the opposite effect. When you put Tom Brady and Snoop Dogg on a fucking super bowl commercial to, to, to yell about this issue. You're. It's a Streisand. It's, it's a similar idea to like the Streisand effect. Like, okay, you're telling everyone to stop being anti Semitic. 99% of the people watching have never had that thought.

[India]

That has the same effect, which was the BLM lecturing effect.

[Julian]

Took the words out of my mouth.

[India]

And that is problematic because, again, like, you want to talk about free speech once again, does it piss me off that kids in school born flags what have you? Yes. Is it okay for them to do that? Given all things First Amendment America 100%. Yes. And on top of that, you layer you're not once again deporting people for criticizing America, you're deporting people for criticizing a different country.

[Julian]

Yes.

[India]

What is that, President? Why are you taking, like, orders from a lobbyist group for a different country? You are literally bending over backwards.

[Julian]

And this is where I think we do have to look inward, actually. This is, I, this is an unpopular opinion, but I've given it a bunch. Everyone yells about AIPAC and everything. And I hear you. And we're talking about the American Israel Political Action Conference, which does lobby a lot of people on behalf of the country. AIPAC exists to lobby on behalf of a country of whatever it is, 10 million people. To try. Where they have a lot of countries around them who don't like them. Right. To try to lobby for their interests. They're doing exactly what I would do in their in their position and they're using our system to be able to do it. My problem is that we have not changed that system in America to not allow other countries, regardless of who they are, to interfere with our politics. We have to have a serious conversation about why have we not done legislation? And immediately people say, because AIPAC's paying everyone and they'll fucking get him out of office if they vote against this. I don't think that's actually true anymore. I think we've seen, for example, like, Thomas Massey's come out and been insanely against AIPAC in Israel. They pumped whatever it was, I don't want to give a number, but it was millions of dollars into a campaign against him and his numbers went up. Right. I'm not saying that's going to happen across the board, but, like, we need to have a serious conversation about why we let that kind of thing happen here because they're going to keep doing that to try to protect the interests of their country. That's exactly what I would.

[India]

Let's stay on that. Let's expand on that. Why?

[Julian]

I'm asking you why they do that.

[India]

Yeah. Just as like a refresher for people who, like, don't really give a. About APAC and how lobbying works.

[Julian]

Yeah. So let me start off by saying this because unfortunately you have to qualify things these days, otherwise people will just. Oh, yeah, everything all one way or another. I don't like Benjamin Netanyahu. I do not like Smote Rich. Obviously, the other dude. Why is his name eluding me right now? I talk about him all the time. Ben Gavir is not in the government anymore. That's recent, but guys like that are scumbags. So, you know, I have a severe problem with the current Israeli government. I do think there are certainly at least aspects of what you could call a genocide going on in Gaza at this point. And I think that's terrible. I also think terror groups are bad. I think Hamas. I have no problem with those guys getting wiped off the face of the earth. I just don't like seeing a bunch of kids go with it too.

[India]

So all.

[Julian]

All that aside, the reason Israel feels the need to have to do that, where I will empathize with them, is the fact that it is true since their founding, which was controversial in 1948, that many people in that area of the world don't want them to exist now. They don't necessarily help their situation when they perpetuate those feelings by doing things, I don't know, preemptively and you know, certainly brazenly in the region to foment dislike for generations to come. That said, I understand that they do live in a constant state of danger. Therefore, when you have a friend as big and bad and powerful as the United States, where, by the way, some of the people who are the same ethnicity that live in your country live here and have some sway too, yeah, you're gonna go use that. And when that democratic system has a loophole that allows people from another country to come in, literally, openly with the. With the interests of that country to pay politicians and help get them into office in exchange for them clearly doing what you want to do, that's going to be forwarding the interests of your country, of course they're going to do that. So I get where they're coming from. I empathize with that position now, looking at it as an American, because it's my country over here. No disrespect to them. I don't want to see people bomb them off the face of the earth or anything, but there are things that are happening in them, lobbying our Congress that are then taking votes to the floor and having decisions happen in this country that are not in our best interest. I, for one, do not want to go to war with Iran. I don't think Iran's good at all. I would love to see that regime get toppled. But, like, starting a war with them, when they're in. They're in deals with Russia and China and you now have a whole, like, east, west thing going on. The downside of that far outweighs the upside of a few guys who yell too loud about death to America and.

[India]

Whatever, especially during a trade war.

[Julian]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's like, by the way, we did. We did a mission in early 2020, January 2020, and took out Soleimani. Now, from guys I talked to back then, there were people. Trump made that decision, and there were a lot of people around him like, what the fuck are you doing? Because they're like, yeah, we don't like this guy. He's terrible. He should be taken out. But like, are you fucking kidding me? This. This is borderline an act of war. What did Iran do about it? Nothing.

[India]

Nothing.

[Julian]

They did fucking nothing. They blinked. They realized we can't do anything about it. Right. So when you are Israel now and you are trying to. And they've been doing this for years, they've been dating back to the 90s, they've been trying to get the US to go to war with Iran, you can run the tape in 2002 of Netanyahu fucking lobbying our Congress on C Span, going, you must go to war with Iraq, you must go to war with Iran. They are, they are an enemy to America. Who we are your best friend. It's like, well, we know what happened with the Iraq war. What about the other half of that? And you're still pushing that 21, 22 years later. Like, I'm gonna have a couple people in here that are of Iranian origin to. To talk about this. And I really do want to understand, like, what the thought process is there. But if there's a way to avoid war, I want to do that. And when another country may be interfering with that, I don't give a who they are. I don't like that. I want to see that.

[India]

Why do you think this whole quote, unquote loophole, like, why do you think Israel is the only country which gets to quote, unquote, exploited?

[Julian]

It's a great question.

[India]

Because America does have to think about this, does have like, familial ties with a lot of other countries across the world. However, this level of quote unquote, symbiotic government doesn't exist anywhere else, I think.

[Julian]

So the places I would think of the most for you would think they would have a ton of sway would be Britain, Canada and Australia. Yeah. And the most obvious logic there is that I'm not even including New Zealand here, but you can include.

[India]

These are part of G7 countries.

[Julian]

Yeah, yeah. Yes. And they're English speaking countries. Canada is right on our border. We don't. We never war with them. We get along with them and everything. It's like, you would think that they would have a lot of influence. Now. They do have influence in other ways. They don't necessarily have lobbying organizations, but there are things you and I both trade. Yeah, yeah. You and I both know there's a lot of deals that happen behind the scenes and stuff like that that taxpayers don't see. That said, I think a big part of it is that Israel, from their creation, was aggressive about this because of the time in which they were created as well, and the controversy around which they were created, where they were created on the holiest land of all, where there were people who are displaced technically from. Not technically, literally from where they live. Right. So I think that they got in there up front and they also. I don't want to say this the wrong way, but there was a. Generated sympathy due to what happened in World War II to the Jewish people, which actually can be a separate kind of Thing necessarily from like some of the people say who lived in Palestine, but it's a part of their same ethnicity. Yeah. And family members of theirs were wiped off the earth or tried to be fully exterminated off the earth and millions of them died. So there, there was a worldwide understanding of that for a while. And I think they use that to kind of backdoor something like this and set up something like AIPAC where our system allows them to do that, where other countries may not have had to be that deliberate about it. You know, Britain's an empire. They're not worried about not existing tomorrow. Yeah. They're worried about losing some of their empire over the years. But like in the 19th century they're fine. Right. Israel at the time is maybe, don't quote me on this, maybe at the time they have like a 5 million population in the 60s. They're 20 years removed from almost being exterminated off the earth. Like there is a fucking desperation there. So we're going to set up a pack, we're going to do this shit. And yeah, then, then the obvious point is that where they need to be respected on their skill is that they are, they do have the best spy operations in the world and you could say they probably have had that since. For decades at least. And they are very, very adept and very brazen at being able to get their way in the espionage underworld. And we have had a lot of people of different perspectives, let's say, who come from our intelligence community who have been in my studio and whether it's on camera or off camera, say the same things about it and talk about how much Israel was brazen about that and they didn't like that. The, the intelligence community of you know, say Mossad and it's more than Mossad. There are other organizations there too. But you know, it's the easy one to talk about. And like CIA didn't get along. They, as far as I know they don't really get along. And that's interesting.

[India]

Coming, coming back to immigration and the woke, like woke right aspect of it. All of this started post October 7th. Everything was everything that was going on in the colleges of the States and people like Bill Ackman were like anyone and everyone who is part of this protest and is part of a American taxpayer funded university need to be ID and there needs to be consequence of it.

[Julian]

Yes.

[India]

And what is happening today is a sixth, seventh order consequence of that. How do you think we should. If you're thinking about like everything from a free speech point of view because the problem of labeling kids who have visas in schools and are partaking in Palestine protests what have you, and labeling them as domestic terrorists or what have you, if you do that, then you have to extend that logic to American citizens who are also partaking with that. And that's where the free speech debate comes into play. Because then you are just using the domestic terrorist like label to deport people who you do not like or whose views you don't like. How do you think we should actually think about free speech and domestic terrorism in this context?

[Julian]

Well, we also shouldn't immediately market everyone that we, that we decide we don't like that we're going to deport as a Hamas supporter. Let's, let's just start right there. Because there are people who, that's not even what they believe or at the very least what they're leading with. They're more like free Palestine. And I understand that this is a very hot button issue. There are children being shot directly through the heart over there right now by sniper rifles. This is a real thing. And no, Douglas Murray, I didn't have to go there to fucking know that. You want to pull up all the evidence and have this conversation like, yes, do I think Douglas Murray makes a fair point about the fact that we seem to just take whatever the, the Gaza Health Ministry says is the numbers of what's happening. Yes, that's a fair point because there is some interference with Hamas certainly within that. But does that mean it's not happening? Does that mean that, like, it's okay that all these people are fucking dying? Two years come, coming up on two years after October 7th, when Hamas's organizational structure has long been decimated. It's not completely gone, I'll give Israel that. Like, there's still some around, but like, you are creating the new Hamas terrorists. You're creating them and it's a self fulfilling prophecy. And to go back to your question of like, what to do here, you know, God, it's so strange because a lot of Trump's base is really not with Israel right now.

[India]

Especially younger people. Like, like people are like, oh, like most Republicans are pro Israel.

[Julian]

What?

[India]

I was like, have you talked to anyone?

[Julian]

The ones holding public office are, yeah.

[India]

Yeah, like the authority wise. Yeah. Like from thermostatic politics point of view, if you like survey most people who are on the right, even under the age of 40, they're like, like, maybe this is like not our thing.

[Julian]

It's where the, it's where you have the bloods and crips meme.

[India]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Left and right. Yeah. People are like, yeah, we agree on this one. Like this, this is getting a little crazy. And yet there's this cognitive dissonance with the right, with met, not all the people on the right, but with many people on the right where they just conveniently ignore that Trump is the most pro Israel president in the history of America ever. And this is really saying something. It's not close. Yeah, it's not close. So why is that? You know, and I would have loved to see them discuss that more on, on that podcast, because that is one place I would have loved to see Douglas Murray's answers or, or trying to write away things as conspiracy theories or whatever, that clearly there's more to them than just it being some theory. You know, the reality is in this world, and this is how it is, this isn't just Israel. It's, it's everyone. There are some nasty things that happen in the underworld that involve espionage across spy organizations. If you think that your favorite or if that's even a thing, but you're your country's spy organization is not doing some up things, then you're not living in reality. Because there's weird moral questions that they decide to answer in one second underground where they just weigh what's worse and they go with the one that's least worse. But yeah, are there things that, you know, haven't have involved Israel that, that could be used to curry favor across Democratic and Republican politicians that, you know, could, could have just gotten caught up in that? Absolutely. And the fact that that's not a conversation that's ever been had is crazy because we have it about every other country. We talk about that about every other country. People are talking about Chinese spies all the time. People are love talking about Russia, spies in the kgb. You think they did everything that ever happened. But if people talk about Britain and some of the things that have happened in history there where they spy on us too. So why don't you talk about it with Israel? It's a very, very fair question. And like, you know, we're going to have some people in here from both sides of the issue coming up that I'm, I'm excited to talk with. And when it comes to the people who are pro Israel, that will be probably their sticking point. I gotta go with the people that are more anti Israel. I'm gonna have to ask them about the realities of like Israel having their, their existence threatened because there are so many people around there that don't like them and they should be. They, they, you know, they overuse the fuck out of this line. Like Israel is a right to defend themselves. They say that about anything. But there are scenarios where they do have a right to defend themselves because there are real things that happen. Like they did have a right to respond to October 7th for sure, 100%, you know, but like, where do you take that? You know, if I'm going to criticize, this is what's crazy. If I'm going to criticize my government about how we handled Iraq, my own government. Right. I don't fuck with Dick Cheney and George Bush. I wouldn't want to be associated with them. Then I can absolutely criticize another government that's doing that. Like who? I think Kiriaka was in here explaining. Netanyahu's never even won with a plurality. There's so many fucking, there's so many fucking parties over there.

[India]

He wins with 27 highly unpopular in his own country.

[Julian]

So how many people in the country even support what's going on? A lot of them don't. They all want to exist. They don't want to be bombed. They may be like, we need to limit, maybe some Palestinians coming into our borders because we're paranoid about it. As a human being, I understand that it's not ideal, but I get that. There's a huge difference between that though, and saying, let's just kill everybody. And I, I don't know why, I don't know why the average people who have a clear opinion where they're pro Israel can at least see that part. Because I, by the way, I am pro Israel existing. I'm pro Palestine existing though too. You can't say that. So as far as the pro Israel people go, I'm, I'm a anti Semite because I believe in a two state solution. But, you know, and then the Palestinian people will be like, so you think that that desecration of a state should even exist. I'm like, you can't win here.

[India]

Given our proximity and what happened with all things Candace and Daily Wire, I think this is a really good opportunity to talk about the quote unquote, alternate right wing media ecosystem and the state of it. Because for the longest time it kind of happened as a consequence of the liberal stronghold in media where Fox News was the only quote unquote, alternate voice which people had access to. But right now there's a really well established pipeline of all things right wing content online.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[India]

And one of their biggest quote unquote, you know, way of getting people to pay attention is that we are the alternate voice. We are what you will not get. Do you think that still holds true, given the fact, And I don't want to say, like, oh, Daily Wire is too big, then that's why, like, they're just as. As good or as bad as the mainstream media, because I don't think being big is like a barometer of whether or not you are mainstream or not. But to your point, you just said no. But I want to question, like, first of all, why no? And second of all, what do you think is the goal of that industry.

[Julian]

As of now, you and I, let's start with the first part, and then if I can remember the second part, we'll come back. But you'll bring me back to it. You and I met through our mutual friend Tommy G a while back, and Tommy G. And I were on the phone, I'll say, recently, discussing this, because, you know, he's. He's not in the podcasting lane, but he's in the documentarian and telling real stories. Brilliant. And he's someone who is truly, truly independent. And I am, too. And we are obsessed with never losing that about ourselves.

[India]

And just so with the definitions. Right. I just want to define what independent means in this context, which means that you are not funded by anybody else, anyone is not paying your bills vis a vis all of this. You are pulling your own weight through ads, through memberships.

[Julian]

Not just that. I'm going to take it a whole nother level. We are also not politically affiliated.

[India]

Correct. You're political affiliation. No one is telling editorial points.

[Julian]

That's the more important part. There are a lot of people who are calling themselves independent right now. They're acting. Actions have proven that they're not, period.

[India]

Okay, we have defined what independent means. Now go back to Tom.

[Julian]

Independent means that if you are going to call yourself an independent journalist, you're a journalist, which means, yeah, I'm going to hold you the standard that I hold myself when I go down and I vote, which I vote 4 blocks from here at Center City for every position down to dog catcher. I do my civic duty. I go in and I vote and I write. Journalist. Abstain. There. There is no affiliation whatsoever. We know how pendulums of societies are. We know how things go. We know how a human being is going to have biases and is going to feel certain push and pulls and whatever, but I am going to maintain my ability to be able to call things like I see it, with having no skin in the game of the people that I call it. About. And there are a lot of people right now who are still out there now. Daily Wire, by the way, is not one of them. Daily Wire says what they are. They are a right wing, conservative, conservative block. And I will defend them on that. I know they've had a lot of issues over there with other stuff that's. Some of that seems indefensible, but I will defend guys like that on that type of thing. I will defend the Sean Ryan's of the world and the. And the Patrick Bet David's of the world because they're, they're very clear about where they stand. But it's not to sit here and like, call out everyone and whatever. I don't think that's what this is. I think we're in the middle of a cultural phenomenon right now. There are guys who have way bigger platforms than I do and way more things being thrown at them than I do. So who the fuck am I to say how I would handle all those things? But I think what Tommy and I were talking about is we got to be really careful about how things look just as much as how they are. And do I think it's a great look that, like, a lot of independent media people are going to the inauguration? No, because I know that if, you know, fucking Anderson Cooper were standing right there next to Kamala Harris getting sworn in, he'd be getting drilled and he deserved to be. Now, do I think that. That my guys are the same as that? No. I think Joe Rogan's great. I think Theo Vaughn's fucking great. Right. I enjoy the Nelk guys. And they actually also kind of come at it from a very clear lens, by the way. But, like, the way things are going to be long term and how things can be labeled is very, very, very important to me. And the whole independent media thing just was a major part, if not the most important part of the presidential election cycle. So now that underdog status is a lot less. Yeah. And there are more eyeballs on us than there are on the fucking mainstream media. And if we become the same things that mainstream media became, even if it's not as egregious or as bad or whatever, just how it can be marketed, we are going to lose people and we're going to deserve to. So now to take it a little more towards exactly where you were going, let's even look at just the right wing media ecosystem, though, of independent media, where it's supposed to be like, people don't control what you say. You know, it's still just Dudes talking in a studio. The real deal right now you look at Daily Wire, now you can criticize him because it's like, now there's clearly people in back offices saying, all right, we're gonna make a show that does this. We're gonna have a hard stop at this time. And they talk in corporate speak and suddenly they're controlling what the narratives are. And when people say things that they don't like, oh, you're out.

[India]

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[Julian]

That's a problem. And I don't care what side of the aisle you're on. That's a huge, huge problem. And, you know, if I were, if I were a liberal strategist or a conservative strategist right now, involved in either one of the, quote, unquote, independent media worlds, meaning let's label this part of the level of independent media, meaning just something that's not one of the mainstream networks, that's, you know, funded by a public company and things like that. It's more of a, you know, small brand type idea. Then I would be having a hard look in the mirror about the freedom I give the people on my platform to run their show and do what they want to do. If we're truly going to be independent, then everyone's got to say what they're going to say. And, you know, we'll deal with how, with how the chips fall. The problem is the lawyers get involved and the lawyer. And I'll defend the lawyers here. It's, it's just a shitty way that the system works. Their job is to find risk everywhere and identify it and try to prevent that. And they're not thinking about, like, how this looks or what the cultural war is going to be. That's not how they think. They're thinking, like, is this gonna risk mitigation?

[India]

That's what they're paid for, right?

[Julian]

And so it's a complicated world. And I'm not gonna sit here. I don't have the responsibilities that those places have. They're huge, right? So I'm very careful about throwing stones from glass houses. But, like, we do have to Be careful in independent media about how things to that point.

[India]

I am so, so, so lucky that when I first moved to dc, Sagar became my mentor.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[India]

And everything that I know about journalism and media was through his lens. Because I was 20 years old and Tucker used to be in the office and Tucker taught us everything that I today know about what is actual anti establishment way of thinking. And obviously Sagar became independent, he started his own show. And I absorb very closely beyond his political take, how he handles all these vibe shift. Because he could have easily played the game of I'm a conservative media host and now whatever. So he didn't do that. It's like, no, no, no, I'm a journalist. I'm a capital J fucking journalist.

[Julian]

I like that guy.

[India]

However, I lean this way because of what my temperament is and what my principles are. However, I'm going to act like a journalist and there's a difference and that needs to exist. I'm in a journalism school. People stop. People stop. Used to being proud of whatever. I genuinely like the fourth estate and people who are in this vertical and that expands to people like you, people who are actually doing their due diligence of covering the news and covering everything that's going on. And I think that having that principle matters. And to Tommy's point, cosmetics matter so.

[Julian]

Far, unfortunately, they do, because it's so.

[India]

Easy to get lost in that, oh, we, we won this fight after four years of censorship and all of this and Covid and all of this, like, now it's our time to win.

[Julian]

Right?

[India]

So it's kind of saying like, fuck you to all things establishment culture and kind of basking in the glory of it by going to the White House and what have you. However, again, you're looking at the timeline in a super myopic way. Things change overnight. And you want to tell your audience when all of this was going on. Even though I told this, this, this and this, I was still doing my job.

[Julian]

That's correct.

[India]

It's the Bill Belichick code. Do your fucking job, do your job. That's all that matters. And a lot like going back to again, all this Candace stuff and Daily Wire stuff, it bothered me so much that even journalists or like podcast people where in there, it's like, okay, fine, you want to have fun, that's good. But I'm not getting your news, my news, from you. And that's where I draw the line. Because everybody's like, oh, do we need mainstream news now? Now that we are listening to Theo Vaughan, now that we are listening to, I don't know, Sean Ryan, what have you. My point is, when something like 911 happens, when something like October 7th happens, I want to turn the TV on. I want to see what the fuck is going on. And that is the value prop of let's call it mainstream media, what have you. Because at the end of the day, they are still. They are still the people who are going out there to aggregate the news.

[Julian]

Yes.

[India]

Right. Joe Rogan is not going to send like an Africa correspondence.

[Julian]

That's correct.

[India]

When wars break into Africa. So we still need those people who are doing reporting and they need to be trained. And that's where like my defense of Capital J journalism comes in. Because I know what that system.

[Julian]

So how do we fix the system? You're saying? How do we make it better?

[India]

Correct. I am totally for the fact that anyone who comes on TV after 6pm or 7pm who has commentary and who has takes what have you, and that can be like someone like Laura Ingram. That can be someone like Don Lamont. He's obviously independent now. Lamar Anderson Cooper. I totally want that kind of content, which is commentary, parasocial content, to exist in your lane because people trust you more.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[India]

So that's fine. But I still want people to do the news.

[Julian]

Yes.

[India]

And those people should never go to the White House, no matter who is in there.

[Julian]

Yes. And. And I don't want to be again, I don't want to throw stones from glass houses because, I mean, I'm a small potato. I don't. I didn't have opportunities like that. Who knows how I handle it when I do. I would like to think that I would have maintained the independence of being like, all right, how this looks is going to outweigh how this actually is because, like, I'm. I'm obviously a very flawed guy. I make a lot of mistakes and you know, there's things that have happened behind the scenes where if I had made other decisions, we'd be a lot bigger and more successful than we are. But I the wrong calls and I got to live with that. But if there's one thing I, I am betting on myself.

[India]

Julian. Pause. I that's why I respect you, because you could have. Anyone can grift their way to fame today. And the game is so mathematical to play. It's so obvious. Like, how do you get that level? It is so easy to play the Griff game. It takes chutzpah to actually stick to what you want to stick to. And that is one of the reasons I respect what you do, I respect what Tommy does, and I think long game matters in that case.

[Julian]

I do too. I. And I appreciate you saying that because the one thing I would like to think when we're sitting here 15 years from now and looking back on hopefully more success than failure that I will have gotten right is I have always looked at things 10 years out, how does this play 10 years out? And that's not to be calculated or change what I say or change my opinions to match anything. It's more to say, where am I reacting to the emotion of the moment versus the logic of the, of the long term? And I'm an emotional guy first. I got to check that at the door. I mean, you can see it if you run this podcast back. I'm getting a little emotional and stuff, and that's okay. But when that is driving all of your actions and how you build your show and build your quote unquote platform, then you're going to run into problems. And so I am constantly like, I wish we didn't have to worry about how things looked, to be frank, because I don't think that, like, personally, on a human, human level, I don't think that should matter. But I realize I can't fight city hall. That is how the world works, how, how things can be spun and how they can look, do matter. So I think about those things and I try to be careful and measured in how, in, in how, you know, I'll handle some of those doors as they open. And I think sometimes, you know, like you said, and I really do appreciate you saying that I could be, I could be very wealthy right now. It would have been very easy. I could have just picked aside on some issues and done my thing. You know, how I can do a video, turn the camera around and do my thing. But I've never done that because that's not me and that's not how I feel. And I believe that there, even if the things they get clicks in the short term, are the extremes and are the most crazy opinions, I believe there are a lot more rational people out there than, than we give credit for in society who look at things with nuance. And I think that over time they will continue to find me and at some point we will cross that escape velocity point to where people are like, you know what? I don't always agree with Julian, which I hope to God you don't always agree with me, by the way, that would be a problem if you did. But there's just a level of like, Real, actual conversation that happens on, on his show. And I can judge how I want to judge and move the, on with my life afterwards. If people are saying that five years from now and we're building an audience like crazy, then I'll know I've done my job the right way.

[India]

Let's go back to the White House real quick because I'm super interested.

[Julian]

I never been.

[India]

It's not that glamorous. First of all, anyone can go there. Like my parents did a couple of days ago. You can just like, like go talk to your embassy and you can just, just walk in. You have to get the tickets and like, you have to pass clearance.

[Nico]

I ran in and they were like.

[India]

You have to pass pass clearance. So they'll definitely look at your.

[Julian]

That might be an issue.

[India]

Yeah, so you have to pass clearance. So don't give me the rest.

[Julian]

Don't, don't do that.

[India]

D.C. is such a, like, I don't know, like, people who haven't been into like, the Capitol Hill area, they think, like, it's a glamorous world. It's not.

[Julian]

No, it's not.

[India]

It's so one romantic. Yeah, I've spent like a decade there. It's just so.

[Julian]

I never thought it was, to be clear. Yeah, no, me neither.

[India]

You know, like when you come, like when you're in middle school, high school, whatever, you do a little Capitol Hill tour and you see all these shiny things, and I totally get the glamour of it, but once you live there and once you spend your entire life there, you kind of see the facade of it and it goes away so, so quickly. But I want to go to the right wing coalition right now. And the first time we saw a fracture in there was during the immigration debate during Christmas, which is, I mean, let's call it the Bannon. Right. And let's call it the Elon Musk, right? What have you. How long do you think this lasts? Do you think that's going to be like a happy marriage or an ugly divorce? Because this post Wisconsin Elon looked pretty embarrassing. And right now the, the reason I want to talk about it because, like, the average Trump voter, in my opinion, but not the average. The. The median Trump voter is a ban on guy. Right. However, from the cosmetics of it, Trumpism is like a campaign, is like a coalition of Mark Andreessen, Elon Musk, Vivek Ramaswamy and all these people who are much more, much less risque than the Bannon faction. So my question is, long term, how do you see this playing out because as of now, they did needed a wide tent to win the election. However, now that you have won the election, who's actually, who has the steering wheel?

[Julian]

What do you think? Because this, you were, you were talking about this, you were talking about this last week with the whole Elon thing. Do you think that this blows up?

[Nico]

I, I mean I, I definitely have lost, got a bad taste in my mouth with him recently. Yeah, it's just kind of just cringy.

[India]

What is?

[Nico]

Well, you know, he, no one wants a guy, he can't be in government because of all of his businesses. However, he's going to be cashing in on all the government contracts and he's kind of just parading around town like a dunce, honestly. So I'm concerned because the moment they butt heads, it's going to look bad because in the past you'd have politicians. I'll pull it back. It's very unprecedented because in the past, whether it was a monarchy, whether it was, you know, sitting presidents, you could buy power through people and you can have people in your pocket. But for the first time ever, we're going to see a stage being set where Elon Musk is going to be this high level bureaucrat who's not going to just be in the pockets of people. He's going to own the actual infrastructure of what our future is about to be built on. And that's what worries me is because the moment they butt heads and we're seeing it happen already, what does that look like?

[Julian]

You know? Yeah, I, I, I, I worry about that too because it's like you want to think the best, you want to think Elon wants all the best things. Like I for one love the concept of Doge. I think it's incredible. Like, oh my God. Going in and trying to clean up government ways. Amazing. Yeah. I think you cut your balls off when you then, you know, still kind of like right wing meme troll on the platform that you own.

[India]

Yeah, it's based, everything's so this, it is so icky.

[Julian]

Right?

[India]

Oh my God.

[Julian]

And like I've always, I've had this line for years. You and I had this line in episode 132 when we were recording three years ago. And I've had it since the very beginning. It's, it's like I'm a fan of Elon. Yeah. I love him trying to get us to Mars. I think rockets are cool as, I think like building sustainable cars is, is cool as shit. But I'm not a fanboy of Anybody. No, no. Let alone him. Meaning I am not gonna sit here, guzzle his fucking balls every time he. Oh, that's the cool tech bro saying this thing. Right. I'm going to look at things the same way I look at everything else when someone else says something objectively and I'm going to say, okay, it doesn't mean he's all wrong about something, but it also doesn't mean he's all right about something. So, like, I can look at something like Doge and say, love that idea. Don't love the optics of one of Trump's biggest funders running this, who, you know is also getting, as Joe points out, huge government contracts and has. He's. He's a human being. Right. So if. If you really want to hit the left on something, they deserve to be hit on this. They had Elon Musk.

[India]

Oh, yeah.

[Julian]

And they pushed him the away. Yeah. And they. And they deserve a ton of blame on that because he tried to be reasonable for a long time. And as a human being who got punched over and over again, he finally got punched enough that he started punching hard back. And what happens as human beings goes right back to that equal but opposite reaction when we start punching back. It's a good feeling. I don't know if you've ever done it, but, like, it's a very good feeling when you do that and you start to say, I want to do that some more. You know, yeah, I might buy this platform here and then I can punch back on this platform. And then it gets. It gets harder and harder and harder and then you get skin in the game. Now he funded the incoming president and everything, and things start to get foggy and. And one of the things I would love to, if I ever met Joe Rogan, ask him about off camera, not on camera, just off camera, is to try to understand what it's like to be so tied to someone like that. Because here you have the richest guy in America, Elon Musk, who, as I already stated, does some really cool things and is an interesting guy who has the biggest modern media moment in history on Joe Rogan's platform in September 2018. That Joe Rogan was the biggest podcaster already at that point, and he was big. That took Joe Rogan from, like a governor to a president. I mean, he went stratus, stratospheric overnight. And so they are tied together and they became very good friends through that. And then Elon, to his credit, had some really good takes as the pandemic was he was One of the first guys to come out because he was funding, you know, some of these. What were they called? The.

[India]

The gumatorial race.

[Julian]

No. The machines that people breathe on. No, the. The things that people breathe. Why can't I think of it? Yeah. What? The.

[Nico]

We already forgot the.

[Julian]

The breath.

[India]

The breathalyzer.

[Julian]

Not the breath. No, they put them on the. The thing for the test. Life support, whatever.

[India]

Ventilators.

[Julian]

Ventilators, yeah. Yeah. Like, he was one of the first guys coming out because he was funding the ventilator, saying, yo, this is actually. Actually killing people. Yeah, right. And he got hit for that, you know, and so he had good takes on stuff. And then we all know what the machine tried to do to Joe Rogan, where he was much more right than they were. Not saying he was 100% right, but he was at least 80% right. Yeah. You know, and they attacked him, like, with lies and smears over and over and over again and tried to tell people what he was. They changed the color of his skin on CNN to try to make it seem like he was more sick6 than he was. Like, it was really sadistic. So during this whole time, he's also developing that friendship, and he and Elon are continuing to bond over things that they are objectively, at least mostly correct about, if not all the way correct on certain issues. And then it translates into a presidential election where a bunch of shit happens. The fucking guy almost gets killed on the campaign trail, and then in the moment, that's when Elon endorsed him publicly right after he got shot. You're. You're emotional. During that time, we were all like, wow, that's crazy. And objectively speaking, it was a badass moment from Trump. It's one of the wildest moments I've ever seen. I get goosebumps.

[India]

I know exactly where I was.

[Julian]

Yeah. Like, when I watch it. You can't fake how he responded to that. That was about it. You know what I mean? And I was. And that's a really, really cool thing. I will never take that from him. But, you know, now all these things have. Have. And it's like. It's like the. The. The train was going down the rails getting faster and faster and faster and faster and faster and faster and faster, and just keeps going all the way into an election to the point that the day before the election, Elon Musk is coming on for three hours screaming, we're never going to have an election again if Trump doesn't win. And then really getting Joe to endorse him. On his own platform, by the way. I mean, that was a real thing. Joe put out a tweet. I don't have it in front of me, but Joe put out a tweet when he put out that podcast on X that night before the election, where he said, you know, elon makes. Makes what I believe is the strongest case yet for Trump, and I'm with them all the way. Enjoy the podcast. And 20 minutes later, it was edited. And Joe explained later why it was edited, because Elon called him and said, you must say you're endorsing Trump. You didn't say it explicitly. Say so. Then the tweet became, elon makes what I believe is the strongest case yet for. Yet for Trump, and I'm with him all the way. And to be clear, yes, that is an endorsement of President Trump. Now you have the owner of a platform, the richest guy in America, going on the biggest podcast platform in the world the day before the election to make his case, which he's allowed to do. I'm not blaming that. And then. And then basically pressuring his friend to say something that. Joe's never done that. As far as I know. He's never. Like, he kind of endorsed Bernie Sanders during a primary, but Bernie was never going to win. And it was like a halfway endorsement in the middle of a podcast conference conversation. He's never, like, come out and done that explicitly. And Joe's in a position where, like, do you have to say yes to that? And also, like, he happens to agree with a lot of things righteously. So I. I understand, like, what's going on and things that happened to him that, you know, Trump more aligns with. And Kamala wouldn't even fucking come talk to him in his studio. I mean, that was. That was insane that she wouldn't do that. So I see all these things, but it's like the pressure builds over and over again to the point that now, you know, Elon just went on a show again a month and a half ago, and I don't envy that, the position Joe is in. And I think it's really tough to criticize him because it's like, well, that's his friend. They've been through a lot. Like, he's trying to clean up the government. I appreciate that. Like, would I challenge him? I don't know. But then when people come at Joe and say, why the fuck are you just letting him say whatever he wants to say? I understand where those people come from. It's just a really, really difficult spot to be in. And anyone who says they know how they would handle that is full of shit, including me. I don't know how I would handle that.

[India]

So there were a lot of people who used to criticize. There are a lot of people on the right who used to criticize the, the, the, the revolving door of mainstream news, which is someone like Jen Psaki can lead the government and then get an MSNBC gig right away. Compare that ecosystem to, you know, Elon Musk. Proximity to Joe already is in the government can now also go to Joe anytime he wants to and make his case. And I think people are doing a disservice to their own IQ if they don't realize that these are the exact same things.

[Julian]

So did you see this podcast Joe did with Ben Lamb, the colossal sciences guy?

[India]

No.

[Julian]

Okay. I haven't seen it. But that is a podcast we've been working on for 18 months now. It's either Ben or Matt, one of the two guys. They were each scheduled like one time and we couldn't line up the schedules and we're still trying to get it done. But they're for people that need context. They're the De Extinction Science company. So they just recently brought back a genetically modified version of dire wolves. It's not a, a real full dire wolf, but it was kind of marketed that way. But it's interesting, right? And I'm very interested in what they're doing. So I've had a friendly disagreement with my friend Paul Rosalie over the past couple years about it because he's a pure conservation guy. He's lived down the Amazon for 19 years. He's been screaming trying to save that place. I've been down there. I've seen the work he does. He's amazing and he has. I would be uneducated to lay out his concerns exactly as he would want them laid out. He'll do that in the future on a podcast. But he has concerns about Colossal and some of the hurt he thinks they may be doing towards conservation, for example. So he laid those out publicly. He and I were talking about it too. And so he called me and went on like an 11 minute rant that I wish we had recorded because it was. I want you to picture if like Dave Smith were alive while Vietnam were going on. And that is about like the level it was. It was biblical. And I was just sitting there laughing the whole time. But he said something in there that was so profoundly perfect and I'm not going to get the wording right, but it's real. It's a really important point. Yeah. Where he was. Because again, like, he's friends with Joe Rogan. Obviously. Joe put this guy into the stratosphere and hey, I'm gonna fucking bring these guys on too. So it's not like he shouldn't do that or something. He just happens to have a different opinion. And so the way he's looking at this, he said, we've created this ecosystem now that has a lot of positive to it. But it's like you can bring people in for a long form conversation and they can be a real human being for a few hours and you can want to get along with them and they get along with you and they put things in a really nice way that. Where they can sound like a nice guy and even sound like they have good intentions. And maybe even sometimes they do have good intentions. But when they come through the. Come through the door, we're in the studio. But when they do, when they do actually come down to it, you know, some of them actually don't have good intentions and are just painting it like they do. And people that are listening to them at the table, like a me, like telling me like, you need to look out for this kind of thing because you are. You're part of this ecosystem. You can make this mistake. You may want to see the best in this person because just as a human, you want to get along with them. And they sound like they're saying something so interesting to the point that you then let's say they're a good guy, not a bad guy. You misappropriate their intentions with what? The actions, with the consequences of their actions. And that's what he thinks happened with Colossal. He thinks that's what's happening here. I'm not saying he's right about that, but I'm saying he thinks that's what's happening.

[India]

Don't you people should be judged on the consequences and other intentions.

[Julian]

100 but what I'm saying is I think that mistake exists across the board, across all different issues, across podcasting. I think I'm guilty of. Of it too. With people that, of course, with people that I've had in here who just, you know, that maybe they really actually don't have bad intentions. Their intentions are good. Like they're not just a bad person, which those people do get through the cracks as well. But it's like what. What can actually support that? Are you just making this sound like it's a friendly way for you to give me bad evidence or are you giving me Evidence that can actually move the needle here. I know that's a convoluted way of putting it. I hope people can understand what I'm trying to get out there. But I think that that is you. When you're friends with a genius. Elon Musk is a genius who says a lot of genius shit you can operate. I know I would be be in the trap of operating under the assumption that everything he fucking says is genius. And because he's saying it, it must be right. But now am I doing my job if I, if, if I'm sitting there with that opinion? Maybe not. But again, it's a really tough spot lot to be in and I don't know how I would handle that because they, they haven't. They have an incredible friendship and long history.

[India]

I have a couple for you. What's your heart out. How long you got?

[Julian]

No, we got time. Come on in, Nico. We're good, we're good. You're good, you're good. My boy Nico's wrong through. We're still on camera. Real quick, you want people? Yeah. All right. Yeah.

[India]

We talked about a lot of funky, but let's start with some fun stuff vis a vis.

[Julian]

We haven't talked about fun yet. No, I've been getting worked up.

[India]

Let's, let's, let's talk about the current state of our gender dynamics in America.

[Julian]

I'm gonna hand this off to Joey Dee. Yeah.

[India]

So something which I've been like super fascinated with is the rise of the trad wife movement. Yeah. So just a refresher. Tradwife is traditional wife, which basically means that we need to return to before all this corporate movement.

[Julian]

God damn right.

[Nico]

Get back in the kitchen.

[India]

So that whole, like men used to say that now there's a whole lane of tick tock commentary which is like, hey, I actually just want to be like a Pilates mom and live that easy life, what have you. And it's funny to talk about it because when I was coming of age, the rise of what I call, like buzzfeed feminism was coming into place, which is, you know, like the Amy Schumer type of commentary, which is women need to dominate in the workplace and what have you. I come from a family where my mom made more money than my dad. So I'm super empathetic to in India in. Because she was putting time between India and uk, but she ran like a teaching business and she was pretty successful in that. So I know what a successful working woman can look like. However, I think right now, tracking this Rise of Tread Wife movement. While at the same time, most people who are graduating out of school are women. Most people who work in, like, the 9 to 5 corporate structure are women making more money than men are not at the top level, but in an average median wage. So where do you think this goes? Where there's, like, this whole yearning energy of women saying that maybe all of this is, like, not worth it.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[India]

While at the same time, the capital C culture is telling you that, no, no, no, no. You can't do exactly what dudes are doing.

[Julian]

All right. This is dangerous. I know.

[India]

I love it.

[Julian]

So let me layer this one. Number one, I think people should have a choice to do what they want to do. Yeah. I don't think there should be set roles of, like, this is what we do in this society. If you're a woman, this is what we do in society. If you're a man. That said that there are certain things that statistically women are going to lean more towards and men are going to lean more towards. You make a really good point about there being more college graduates that are women or. Or, you know, obviously, like, just mathematically there's more of them doing that. I do think in society, we have started to sell women a lie, though. What I mean by that is not that women shouldn't be CEO or that women shouldn't strive to eventually be a woman president. Right. I think those are great things, but I think we've. We've sold to women that this social plan I talked about the last time I was on with you is also for them too. So let's review that for people that haven't figured that out. You know, you have this.

[India]

The social contract. Yeah.

[Julian]

You have this thing. I'm very passionate about this. But you have this thing where you're a kid and you're told, all right, go get decent grades. Work hard in school, by the way, have your extracurriculars. You know, be good at a sport. You could stick it on a resume, get that GPA in college. So you're set up junior year. You take your SAT classes. Make sure you get at least, you know, 12, 50 or whatever. You get into a decent school so that your parents can throw you a graduation party and tell all your friends you're not. Then you go to college. You go there, you drink, smoke and. But you get your work done. You have a decent gpa and you start doing those internships when you're a sophomore in junior in college. And then, boom, you come out and you go into a Respectable industry to get a respectable job so you can start making money. And this is something that men were always sold because it's like, okay, we come out, we do that.

[India]

This is like our default settings, right?

[Julian]

Then we start to. We start to find the girl, maybe at 25, 26, 27, but we're working our ass off. We get married at 29, 30, we start popping out kids at 32. Maybe we're a VP of some fucking marketing or whatever it is now. We're making 120k a year in New York. That's enough to fucking walk my dog, take a piss and clean it up with, you know, whatever nail to the chest.

[India]

But I'm saying this is my second time listening this.

[Julian]

Then it church. Then it's keeps going through. And as you get up through your 30s, you're popping out more kids. Now you're setting up, what is it, 501 C3s or 529, whatever the it's called. I'm not in finance anymore. You set up that stuff so that they can save for college, which by the way, by the time they get there, there's going to be twice as many people graduating from college, the degrees watered down, and it's going to cost three times as much for you be. For you to be able to be told that there's no such thing as two genders. And then you're in your early 40s now, you don't like your wife anymore. You are fighting with her all the time. So you go play golf on Saturday mornings to get away from her. Maybe Tuesday afternoons too, if you're. If you're high enough up in your company. And eventually along the way, you're saving your 401k so that you can look at that fucking 65. I'm out 65. I'm out 65. I go buy my condo in Florida.

[India]

Florida.

[Julian]

I go down there, I stop being productive. Maybe I take a walk in the morning to feel important or feel like I'm actually getting exercise. I look at the sun and I wait to die. This was something that was sold to men since World War II. It also along the way, started being sold to women to the point that, that they are trying to automatically default, be the breadwinner and go be the corporate girl and whatever. And maybe that's not what they want. Maybe they actually do want more. The most important job there is in the world, which is to be a mom. Like I'm sitting here and by the way, I have both worlds with this. So I can really speak on this. My mom, who's my hero, had 15 or 16 miscarriages and she ended up with me, which was a handful. Like that was, that was the blessing and the curse, if you will. But she, she had a very prestigious public school teaching job in a major league, this huge district, was making bank. And she left that behind at the job of a hat to raise me. And I remember when I was 3 years old and went into like my first little preschool or whatever, she decided to take a part time back with that. And she lasted about three weeks because she wanted to be home to raise me. So she did that and devoted her life to me, which I owe her for, into perpetuity. And then when I was 10, she decided, you know what, while he's away at school during the day, I can fill that time up and I can do things. And she did awesome things. She became a personal trainer. She ended up owning a gym and selling it. She went back to her roots, became a college professor at the local community college because she could teach classes at 12 o' clock and 1 o' clock and pick me up from school, you know, so she was able to live those worlds and, and do the entrepreneurial thing as well and have her own personal training business, but be a mom. And that was the most fulfilling thing that she ever did. And I think there are a lot of women out there who can absolutely do both and become the CEO and also be an amazing mom too. And like, you know, maybe they even went to an Ivy League or something, so they've really invested in this. But there's a lot of women whose, you know, secret dream is actually to be an amazing mom and depend on the man to go out there and, and make the money and fund the most important job there is, which is raising our kids and having her have the time to do that. And like, whoever my future wife is, whoever she's going to be, she's going to get to decide whatever she wants to do. I'm not one of these guys, these chauvinists, is going to tell her how to live or what to do with her life. Yeah. Like Joe. Yeah. But what I'm saying is I will definitely be very happy if I marry a girl who's like, hey, you know, we're going to be having kids. I hope to have a lot of kids and I want to stay home and raise them. I'm going to be like, fucking A, please do that. And I will take care of the rest because that's why I've Worked so hard to do what I do right now so that we can have that luxury and also maybe come up in a world where our kids don't have to just follow those plans. You know, this is separate from what you're saying, but another thing that's very important to me, I mean, you see me like, like, I don't go buy Gucci this and Versace that, right? Like, I'm a very simple guy. And like, I don't want my kids obviously, if this is going to keep going on the trajectory it does. It's like I have success. I don't want my kids to know that. I don't want to live in a 12 bedroom house and have three houses in other places. I want my kids to grow up to be dogs, right? I want them to grow up and form their own way. When we had Red man in here and he started talking about all his kids and all the different they're doing, that's completely away from what he did. I thought that was amazing. Because Red man never switched up, bro. He didn't give a MTV Cribs came to him and said, hey, we'll give you a house to rent so it can look more important. He's like that, come to my two bedroom and see my dollar box in the kitchen. Like, he didn't. I love that man. Maybe that's why we got along. But like, I, I'm gonna need a wife that, like, it's not like, you know, we're gonna sit there and be poor about everything, but that understands, like we're gonna try to instill those types of values in our kids. And it's about what we have with each other rather than what we have in the bank.

[India]

Going back to the trad wife part, Right. I think like there was a key part where he said, my wife can do that if she wants to. Right. The problem, not the problem. The issue with the whole trad wife culture is that a lot of women do want to do that, but because of all things, affordability, crisis, and not to get too macro like neoliberalism in general, most families cannot afford that. So not because of their choice. There are two people working. And that results not only in the woman not actually doing what she wants to, but also in a. The kid doesn't have to like they're like the mom and the dad in the house.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[India]

So there's like a cascading effect which goes beyond the trad wife culture or what have you.

[Julian]

So what's a luxury, you're saying? And I agree.

[India]

It is a luxury. It's 100 a luxury.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[India]

And just like you, when I was born, my mom wanted to just be a mom, even though she was a teacher and she was making okay money. But my dad was like, okay, we need the money. I totally get it. Because he was also going through a lawsuit. But my mom was like, I want to, you know, help you out. But my dad was like, no, no, be a mom, because I know you want to do this. And that arguably had the biggest effect in like, my upbringing.

[Julian]

Yes, right.

[India]

We luckily got over that situation. My mom ended up opening her own business, super successful. But the point being the fact that she felt uncomfortable leaving me at a crash or like, I don't know, like a child care taker, whatever, that had such a long lasting impact on my upbringing.

[Julian]

Yes.

[India]

For a lot of families that is probably not the case.

[Julian]

Correct.

[India]

So I think we can keep talking about trad wives and culture wars or what have you, but because of economic reality, most families can't afford that.

[Julian]

Well, let's. Yeah, let's, let's step into that for a minute because that's the, that's the 500 pound elephant in the room. We have legislated away the middle class and we've created people where they're living literally, paycheck to paycheck. And the respect I have for the moms who work three jobs while their kids are forced to be more independent on things that ideally they wouldn't be independent on it. Maybe the age they're at is tremendous because those moms are in a horrible spot. And the dads are out there working hard too, when they're around. And I'm not talking about situations where it's like, like there's a single mom or single dad. I'm talking where there's both even, and they're both working. But what I also don't think should happen is like the I want that Ferrari effect of society. Oh, yeah. A lot of the trad wife stuff is attacked because they're like, you have the luxury of having that. And there's a part of me that says, you know, we used to live in this world. I remember John Bor talked about this in episode 57 with me. But he's like, when I was growing up, you'd pull up next to the guy in the Ferrari at the light and you'd say, damn, I wonder what he had to do to get that. I want to do that too. He said, now these kids pull up and they say, I should have that too. Right. And so you don't want to just attack women who may have the luxury of being a trad wife strictly because they have the luxury of having that. You also don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and ignore the problem that you very righteously raise a hand, which is that it is not an economic opportunity for a lot of people. Partially also because we sold everyone the lie that every person has to go to college for 70 grand a year to get a gender study studies degree. Like what, Nico, do you use your college degree every day?

[Nico]

People ask me that all the time, but I.

[Julian]

Can we pull the mic to Nico?

[Nico]

Yeah, people ask me that all the time. I, I honestly believe I do use my, my college degree just in the facet of learning how to mature as an individual and hold myself accountable to goals that I want to achieve.

[India]

So the pushback to that is you use your college skills, not the degree necessary.

[Julian]

Really? Yeah.

[Nico]

And then if you want to dig into the degree, I did do marketing, so I believe. And lean into the newer things I learned. As far as like in your marketing degree, my school was like super niche, you know, so we learned a lot of like social media techniques and things like that that I just try to implement into my entrepreneurial side of stuff. Like, because my dad, when we run the bagel store, we clash on that all the time.

[Julian]

Best bagel store in Hobo, by the way.

[India]

Nice bagels on the Hudson.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Nico]

So like just the other night, like we were clashing about, he's doing a new. He has a big deal coming up, so he has the opportunity to maybe have extra cash to spend on things. And coming up in the marketing degree, you learn a lot about like different channels to market to people in different ways that capture new sales. We're going to need to capture new sales. Our brand compared to the other bagel store in town is not similar on an online presence.

[Julian]

Right.

[Nico]

So I'm pitching to my dad like, hey, we should invest a little bit of money and try to get this social media thing going. Obviously his brain is so old school.

[Julian]

I'll work on him, you know what I mean?

[Nico]

And like, he never went to school, he never got a degree, nothing like that. He learned the bagel business by sitting in the store for 365 days a year. And traditional ways of marketing that were pitched to him by the people who came in the store and pitched, hey, put your ad in the newspaper, do this, do that. Me, I actually learned something and I'm not like that's why I say I use it not only in the bagel business, in my real estate business as well.

[Julian]

Yeah, I'm not going to go into detail, but I, but that's not the majority. Here's the thing. I too also feel like I use my degree. I have no complaints about my college. I went to school for the major was called Global management, which sounds way more important than it was, but it was business school. Right. And I use it all the fucking time. But I also know people that, even some that went to my school who, like Nico, what was your major over there?

[Nico]

Marketing.

[Julian]

Business marketing. Exactly. So he's, he's putting that to work within business. I'm, I'm an entrepreneur as well. I'm putting it to work within business and what I do. And then other things are, you learn along the way. College didn't teach you, but I know a lot of people who are really smart who got like a poli sci degree, even like a normal degree. Yeah. And, and, and they're like, what do I do? I like, even the ones who will go down and work in D.C. and work at think tanks are like, do I really use a lot of what I learned there? You know what I mean? So it's, it's not that I don't want to demonize college. I think that's, I think that's a huge mistake we're making because now the reaction is we need to cancel it. It's all bullshit. It's all Marxist. That's not the case at all. I didn't have that experience at all. But like that healthy middle ground of like, all right, well, maybe this kid wants to own a contracting company. So college isn't for him, trade school is for him. And by the way, he's going to be fucking driving around a Bentley.

[India]

Than accountant, maybe. Yeah, whatever.

[Julian]

That's right. So it's like. But you also need college for engineers and lawyers and doctors and all this shit. So it's very important. But we have to, we've watered it down so much and we've put these expectations on it and we tell these kids, you know, when they're 17 years old to sign their name to a loan and they don't even know how money works. It's like the system set up to. Exactly. The system is set up to fail. And I think we got to reckon with that sooner rather than later.

[India]

What do you think happens to like, how old are you?

[Julian]

32.

[India]

32. I'm 29. What do you think happens to like the COVID generation of kids. Because that's great. One of the. I asked Sagar why he got into journalism and news. For him it was 9 11. I, I was too young to remember 9 11, but for me it was all things 2016.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[India]

Which is Trump circa for selection.

[Julian]

Is that when you immigrated too?

[India]

No, I moved. I moved to the UK when I was 16 or 17 and then I moved to the States when I was 20.

[Julian]

So what, like 2014, 2013, something like.

[India]

That in the States? Yeah, 2017.

[Julian]

Okay.

[India]

Yeah.

[Julian]

So.

[India]

But long story long, I still remember my first day. I got out of Dulles in D.C. and all the Kavanaugh protesters was going on. And I was an intern at the college.

[Julian]

I like beer.

[India]

Good. Great timeline. But then I got to the office. I got an internship at Tucker Carlson's blog, which was Daily Caller. And in my fourth day in the States, I met Tucker. And Tucker was like, don't judge us. We are not like this. Because he was refereeing. He was, he was referring to everybody outside. But then we met again, like literally like four months later when things were even more chaotic. And he was like, you know what? Judge us. And like that was like my, my orientation in all things American journalism and like news in general. But my question is, I think about like the next generation who kind of came of age during COVID and everything that was happening during then and that whole tragedy defined their upbringing. And when they were kids, they probably faced the consequence of their dads and moms losing their jobs during 2008.

[Julian]

Yes.

[India]

And everything that happened during 9 11, what have you. So what, what do you think their like approach to America is and how they look at the country in general? Because I'm guessing you are probably taught to look at America in a way different way than these people are going to be.

[Julian]

Yeah, I, I, not even looking at America, I think we got to go a layer below that. What long stream, you know, long term downstream effects does it have that kids weren't in school and interacting for two years? I don't care if it was kindergarten, first graders or third grader, fourth graders or seventh grader, eighth graders, or 11th grader, 12th graders. There is a social understanding and a social learning environment. And also a quality of learning environment that we already talked about earlier is suffering in this country that was taken from them. And there are interpersonal skills that have been lost. I think it's beyond that too. I think I, I think you got to look at adults like one. Listen, when I, when Covid hit, I was building this thing. And my job was to be social with people during the week because I'm talking with them on camera. But I lived on a island, I worked all day. I mean, I still do, but like I was literally at my parents house, you know, in Bumble, South Jersey, living in a dark studio like this and editing all night. So I'm away from the world, I'm away from how a lot of things work. And I remember.

[India]

Do you miss that time?

[Julian]

No, I remember. Well, there, there's, there are fond memories.

[India]

I know how much you romanticize that grind. That's what I'm asking.

[Julian]

I romanticize it in the sense that there are fond memories of how things happen. And that would be a 12 hour conversation. We started that. But I don't miss being sickly and unhealthy. Like I, I was able to take care of my health when I got up here. Get back. I mean, you know, it's, it, it got to a really bad place physically and mentally by the end of that. But I remember coming back, the one thing I could still do is like have interpersonal communication on a basic level with people. But to this day, when I walk down the street, people look down. You feel weird if you say hello. And it affects me. I, I'm, I'm empathic with people and I take on people's emotions. So when people do things like that, like look away from me or whatever, I shut down. I don't, I don't even know how to handle it. But what I'm realizing is that that's a societal wide thing and it's this like expectation where people got separated from each other. So now they're also like, like, I don't want to say they're suspicious of everyone siloed, but yes, that's a perfect way to put it. They're very siloed. And I think that the downstream effects of that are already bad on society. I think you could even look at it with dating where everyone's just relying on flipping this way. And when you go to do things in person, you're worried about how they're going to come across. You're worried like, all right, well if I get rejected, is she going to think I'm creepy just for asking? Like, these are not questions I thought about in 2019. Thank God, 2019 was a good year. Good year. But you know what I mean? It's like society has changed even in an adult level. What do you think it's going to do to kids?

[India]

Not just that. My question is how do they look at America in general, how they look and the promise of it? Because my. I don't. I like to take myself out of the equation because I have a different lived experience. I'm comparing them.

[Julian]

It's very progressive.

[India]

Yeah, but that's what Jonathan School does to you. But I try to compare that to like how, like how their parents viewed this country and the promise of it. Because like they came off age. They being their parents, came of age during the roaring 20s. And that whole culture. Not culture. By culture I mean like outlook and the promise of America is so different than the nihilism their kids grew up in.

[Julian]

Did you ever meet anyone in the silent generation? Meaning people that were born before 1941.

[India]

How old, how old they would be now?

[Julian]

They would be like fossils.

[India]

So no.

[Julian]

95. Yeah. So my. I'm still lucky to have three of my grandparents. They're all from that generation. They're born in 1933-1935, the ones that are left. And my grandma to this day, little 4 foot 11 Italian lady, you know, she not missing any meals. They're doing just fine. My grandpa was a doctor. Like they lived the American dream. But she still writes down how much a orange costs and shit. You know, she puts signs on every, you know, light in the house that says turn off when done. There's a sign on, on, on the shower down the shore that like limit it to nine minutes of water. And I'm like, lady, I used to manage your money on Wall Street. You know, you're fine. But that's built into her from the Depression era because the silent generation was the artist generation of the four generations and the fourth turning, which I'm not going to explain all right now, but what we are talking about with the current generation, the COVID generation and Gen Z that came up in this time of just like financial crisis, you know, political infighting, social media, making everyone miserable and want to kill themselves. All these things that are happening, they are a part of that generation that grows up during the crisis moment. And as a result they are very guarded about the world. They are very like, all right, what could go wrong? They're more protective of things. And I think that is going to be something we see moving forward. Because if you've read the Fourth Turning, we have seen this cycle happen now several times over and over. Yes, 100.

[India]

Yeah. And it's so important because your outlook to America could be either that of abundance or that of scarcity. Because you can look at America and be like, oh, it's an empty canvas, and I can build whatever I want to build. Or you can look at America and be like, I saw my dad lose his job. I saw what that did to our house in general. And I came of age during COVID where you cannot get a job. You are stuck in your house. And after that, there is all of this political turmoil going on where we cannot agree on the basic stuff. Oh, and by the way, I have college debt.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[India]

So what that does to, like, a kid's brain coming of age. That's where my concern is. And I don't blame them for not being patriotic, by the way.

[Julian]

Yeah, I. I couldn't agree more, man. I think I. I think you have to. It's not to say you got to celebrate how people look at things, but you have to understand why they look at them that way. And that's. That's how I'm gonna look at that generation. And, you know, that's kind of what it is.

[India]

I need something positive to end on. So, obviously, how long are you going to keep this atrocity on top of your head?

[Julian]

Until we get a million subscribers. I publicly committed to it. My mom rips me about it every day. It is an atrocity. I don't have that. You're not rocking the flow today. I appreciate you not showing.

[India]

Raining outside. Put this on.

[Julian]

Oh, you got the product in your hair. This kid's got amazing flow, but, yeah, it's not great. It's definitely hard to take care of at this point. A little unkempt, but we'll. This is my gym hair, too, so it's a little worse than usual, but.

[India]

When you look back on this phase of your building, how do you think you will look at it? Because you told me, like, you don't look fondly upon that time during COVID.

[Julian]

It's not that I don't look fondly upon it. I don't miss it.

[India]

You don't miss it? That kind of. Sort of, like, did kind of mold and mold to what you are today, though.

[Julian]

It did. I don't. I don't regret a second of it. And I work my dick off during those years, and I've continued to do that. We're over five years in now. Me being seven days a week. It can't be like that that forever. But I. I know this is my moment to do what I got to do and to take that big step into the stratosphere, and I intend to do that. And. And when I'm done, whenever that is, hopefully a long time from now I intend to be, for a long time, undisputed number one in the world at what I do. And that has been the goal since day one. And that's the only way this will end.

[India]

Julian, Doris, thank you.

[Julian]

Thanks. I appreciate you, bro. Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that, like, button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.