B (2:37)

Yeah, that's right. It is the golden age of coaching, as I always say, because it's a profession whose time has come because it fits the new paradigm of the world. We're in a different world than where when Jung, Freud and Jung were around and even the humanistic psychologists, which were more interested in treating people in a humanistic way, way through therapy models, now we're. We're way beyond that. And instead of just thinking about healing and helping people, and of course, therapists are still very much needed there. There's a big demand for therapists as well. But coaching takes a separate track where we're talking about the potential of the human being, potential of the human mind, to transform itself, to transform culture and society and the world creative ways. And that is a very particular niche that coaching occupies.

A (3:49)

And I see so many. When you look at the Psychology Today listings and you see all the therapists, they also say and life coach, because they know that, that there. There is such a demand for it. And not everyone needs therapy, not everyone needs treatment, psychological treatment. And so when we are in the coaching lane, we're out of that medical model. We're in that we're not treating ourselves, we're not healing ourselves, we're assuming that we're, you know, typically functioning and we're reaching our potential, which is a different kind of way to start. If you're starting on a map somewhere where you're starting and so you're starting in a new place, in a different place, and also this stigma of being in treatment and something's wrong with you, that type of thing is very subtle. It's not overt. A lot of coaches say, oh, I never think of my clients as broken, which we know. But in the medical model, unfortunately, that's how it was constructed over a hundred years ago, that to follow those models for insurance and all that, that kind of limits that the public's perception of themselves when they're in it. And it's not a therapist's fault. Many of them do basically coaching. I've met you're really a coach, you're not really a therapist. And the people you work with aren't, you know, needing treatment. But so it really is this gray area sometimes where people want to explore what this is. So I'm glad we're having this conversation. One of the things I hear a lot, Rob, is that a lot of people think the coaching industry, it's so saturated. There are so many coaches. And I could tell you, according to ICF, there's only 122,000 worldwide. So it may appear it's a perception problem. Because I always tell my clients or prospects that are going into looking for coach training, they're like, oh, isn't the field overwhelming? I said, well, you know how algorithms Work on Instagram and Facebook and all those YouTube. If you're watching personal development content, you're going to get a lot of personal development content and your whole feed is filled with it and you think, wow, that's all there is, but it's feeding you content you like. So it's this misperception that there's so many out there. And if you think about how many therapists are worldwide, I mean it's in the millions. So we, there's plenty of growth and there's 9 billion people on the planet. There's plenty of clients out there for everybody. So I think that's really, really interesting. And this has increased 13% over year, over year. So it's growing and really, really interesting topic that It's. People know what it is. And I think there's not enough. I think we need more coaches in the world.

B (6:31)

Yes. Another, another aspect of the study that they put out in 2025 is that coaching is not only growing in numbers, it's expanding its reach. There's more. It's, it's reaching into spaces that were previously not in the bounds of coaching. So now, for example, almost half of the clients are coming from corporations.

A (7:03)

So corporate people, we get many clients. In my private practice, people will say, my employer gave me a stipend for coaching and so now it's not even coming out of the person's hand. The companies are paying for coaching because there's, I can't remember that. I don't have this statistic in front of me. I should, but it's like a thousand percent ROI that the employer gets when their clients are getting coaching because it just helps them because there's more to a person than their activities and their conscious, topical self that if they do the inner work and have more emotional regulation or more insight into why their behaviors are the way they are and motivation, of course they're going to perform better and they're going to have a better inner sense. So a happy employee is a happy be business. Right. So they really believe in it. But also growing too is the private sector. I mean, we've been in this industry for 20 years and it's, you know, it's, there's clients that are always willing to invest in, in coaching. It's, it's never been where, ooh, it's a bad market for coaching. It's never ever stopped us. So very reception proof too. Especially now with everyone worrying about recessions. It's definitely recession fruits. And in fact, when it is tough times, that's when people do reach for more help, they're looking for people to help them navigate transitions in their life. So. So definitely a really powerful shift. Also, I think what's changed in the past 10 years. When I first started coaching in 2003, actually I really got into it in 2005. The first two years I was a hypnotherapist and I was doing coaching too, but then I dropped the hypnotherapy and I just got into coaching because I didn't. I felt like the hypnotherapy was just symptom relief for people like help me quit smoking, help me, help me lose weight, help me get over my anxiety. And those are great things and great tools. But when I worked with my coach, I worked with her for a year, I bought a year package with her and she I was like, I want to work with people longer term. I want to have them go toward goals and be more involved in their whole journey. And so I shifted to coaching and then I looked at the industry and it was amazing how many people weren't even trained and they were doing a technique and then slapping the word coach after it. And people got away with it for a while. But I think the last 10 years people are seeking more credentialed coaches, more professional coaches. People are being more discerning, especially people that are buying high end packages, you know, private coaching, they're going to be a little more discerning than someone buying a course. So if you want to be a professional coach, you should get professional training. So very, very important. The standards are much higher for clients that are professional, clients that are looking for coaches. Also, what really happened with the industry too, it's not just rah rah. Coaching isn't just motivation like you saw in the research about enthusiasm, right?

B (10:02)

Yeah, I mean especially in the depth of the work that we do, which is based on Jungian psychology, which is adept psychology. Those of you not familiar with different models of psychology, the psychodynamic models, which are the models that look at the unconscious mind, are the ones that really go deep. Many of the traditional more or more standard kind of coaching models have use cbt, cognitive behavioral therapy or models derived from that, or cognitive behavioral coaching as it's called sometimes. But cognitive behavioral coaching, really good for processing goals and thinking about your how do I achieve these goals?

A (10:48)

Getting motivated, even just thinking of your thoughts and beliefs. I mean that's kind of what I did as a hypnotherapist. It's more like rewiring the brain and the subconscious. And like it's a computer and you just can rewire it and have a new Persona, a new confident self. And those things are really useful. They're very powerful. But they don't change a person really. They just change how they think and what they do. But their, the, their. Their self identity is still tied to an ego. I. This limited kind of self that's separate from the world. And we include the Eastern philosophy in our work. We'll talk about that in a little bit. But it really is that we have to go beyond just that motivation. And there's clients that they just love the motivation. They're just tell me what to do, cheer me on, let me think positive, let me write my journal. And they're great. And that's fine. I mean, some people are looking for that. But I think a lot of people, when we do our programs and we do our intros and new clients come into our business, they're always saying, oh my God, I wanted something with need in it. I want something deeper. I'm tired of the pop, cheer, cheerleading stuff. I want to, you know, sink my teeth into everything in myself and, and go much deeper. And so there are plenty of people hungry for more and actually not enough depth coaches out there as well.

B (12:10)

Yes. So this depth coaching goes beyond mere performance and touches into questions of identity. Who am I? What is my purpose? So forth. And not just goals, but real purpose in asking yourself, why do I want to do these things? Why are these important to me? And that really takes clients to a sense of clarification about their life. Why are they doing the things that they do and finding those sources of meaning for themselves. They're very powerful experiences. Because if you think about it, most of our lives we go through these. We kind of live at the transactional level where we're. We're interacting with people, but just kind of at a surface level. One Persona to an. To another. Right. Kind of the mask. Like Jung says, we're all wearing mask and we're playing certain roles in society. There's nothing wrong with that. Of course, that's how we do our lives. But when do you really sit down with another person and really talk about the meaning of your life, the meaning of your experiences, and when, why you're doing the things that you're doing? Not, not in a healing context or a therapeutic context, but simply in an empowerment context of how can I really find meaning in these activities? And why. Why is this important to me? Like finding the real reasons for your actions?

A (13:42)

I think that, yeah, it's like the why and the deeper and that the why isn't something you can get to by just asking questions. And so with depth coaching, it's not just like when I first was deciding what I wanted to do in my career, my good friend was a coach and I was like, oh, that's nice. You know, she asked me questions, but I want to go deep, I want to be spiritual, I want to go like, with the emotions and I want to explore visualization. And that's why I went into hypnotherapy. But then I quickly realized, well, why can't coaching have that depth without the fixing, without the symptom, relief? But can it be something different? And lo and behold, I meet Dr. Robert and he introduced me to Jung. And the way Jung looked at the psyche was much different than the Western, typical, most Western psychologies, which is that the mind, like, it's programmed and we just, you know, we're, we're kind of stuck with our patterns and we just have to cope with them. Versus Jung said we can evolve and become someone else. We can step into our true self, which is a spiritual process. And it doesn't have to be like, woo, woo spiritual. It can be just people connecting with what most people would call their soul, like their, their true essence, whatever word that resonates with them, but the, the person they were meant to become. And so it's a very visceral, emotional, inspirational experience that gives you a glimpse of who you are beyond the surface. And I love that about the Jungian model and the debt model.

B (15:12)

Yeah, that. That aspect of the model has been both a great hindrance for Jung's work as well as its saving grace. It's been a hindrance in academia because a lot of people are reluctant to use that model because it is a spiritual psychology, in a sense. On the other hand, the reason it's so powerful is because it is a spiritual psychology that it, it helps people understand the totality of themselves, not just the functioning, kind of transactional part of their lives.

A (15:49)

Well, isn't it? Because Skinner, when he came out like Jung was before Skinner, and then all of a sudden behaviorism started coming out in the west, in the US and it became like the darling. Now it's neuroscience. And with the scientific model and a medical model, it's all about measuring what you could see with the senses. So when you're looking at a methodology, you're like, well, how do I measure it? How do I see witness the client? Like, oh, they, they stopped eating Greasy foods and they lost weight or they have their emotional. They can record what their emotions are and how they feel. With Jung, how do you measure the unconscious? How do you measure the collective unconscious, the spiritual experiences? There's no mechanism for that and there's no reason to do it. But that's. Would you say the reason why a lot of people need to have that framework, theoretical framework, to, to use it in a scientific model?

B (16:44)

Well, that's, that debate is going on in, in serious psychotherapy schools, let's say some of the universities that focus on what are the models of psychotherapy and are they, are they different? Like, are some more effective than question it became or part of the discussion is has the medical model hijacked the idea of psychotherapy where it became more about diagnosis? The DSM 5 kind of outlining certain treatments for certain diagnosis, which are important, of course, but that was not the original intent of psychotherapy. You know, in, in Freud and Jung we see kind of a more humanistic understanding that there's unknown aspects of the psyche that we can, we can observe and we can deal with and, and interact with, but we can't really measure them and kind of break them down into their smallest components like in reductionism. And so that debate is still going on, I imagine, in, in certain schools. But, but it seems that, yeah, the predominant approach to psyche in modern societies is that it's the brain that we're treating and that the model is one of chemical imbalances. Pharmaceuticals. That's why pharmaceuticals are so powerful and

A (18:14)

so rich, the companies and the business,

B (18:17)

because then it's about treating psychological symptoms. With pharmaceuticals,

A (18:27)

you've spent years building success and achieving what others would only imagine. But yet something deeper is calling. A desire for work that's meaningful, transformative and rooted in who you really are. At CreativeMind, we train professionals to guide others through real psychological transformation using Jungian principles, Eastern spirituality and social neuroscience. No cliches, no surface level tools, just depth, structure and purpose. Our ICF accredited Jungian Life coach training program provides a profound professional training in small cohorts that includes personal transformation with a dedicated coach and powerful tools to help you guide others in a deep way. Lasting transformation. Step into that next chapter of your personal and professional evolution. Join us by visiting creativemindlife.com and speak to an admission specialist today. That's creativemindlife.com. And even insurance. I remember as a hypnotherapist in Denver, I had a supervisor and that we had to. For them to get reimbursed from insurance. They needed a diagnosis. So most of them had like generalizing anxiety disorder. And I always felt a conflict because I didn't feel like people were broken. And then you're giving them a label that they give to their insurance and with some kind of, you know, disorder. And I just felt like it was dehumanizing in a way. Like they're not just a normal human being, you know, just having normal human experiences. So. And I know a lot of people take insurance if they're in therapy and they're forced to do that and they probably have the same conflicts. It's like, well, this person's fine. People do not sick but you know, in order to get their insurance to pay. And so it's really a quagmire that we're in. And coaching is a cash business. Like you don't have to worry about dealing with insurance companies and you could charge whatever you want and don't have to give them diagnosis and justify, you know, your expenses.

B (20:38)

The opportunity for coaching is to fill that gap, to be able to go deep and use these depth psychology models without necessarily buying into the brokenness idea of psychotherapy or, or that, that world. Right. In other words, staying in, in the lane of possibility of personal development and, but still working with real important questions in, in human life. So that niche, I think it's a great potential and that's part of the work that we've been doing is introducing deeper models into coaching models. In other words, in ways that people can use them that don't necessarily need therapy. They're not needing a psychopharma pharmaceuticals, but they, they want to go deeper. They want to understand their spiritual aspirations, their dreams, their inclinations for creativity. All these beautiful assets, aspects of human nature can be addressed through these coaching models.

A (21:49)

And also just we get a lot of therapists that take our program and they also agree with the model and how limiting it is. So we're not like anti therapy at all, but it's more of like a. The industry versus the, the actual people in it. And also too one thing that people confuse with coaching and I want to go deep is this idea of like I want to treat traumas and if you're a coach, you shouldn't be treating trauma. Like that is the therapist lane. You know, you are not treating any kind of deep stuff with them. And actually when we're treating a trauma, it's not, it's not really that coaching. It's. It's more of cognitive, behavioral, probably more like a lighter touch with that because a person's Traumatized, they need to build up their ego. Where our program, our system and our method of adept coaching is for people with, you know, strong egos that are, you know, are active in the world, they're functional in the world, and they're, they just want to reach their potential. And so we have to like, in the industry, I see the coaching industry like there's a lot of coaches that want to be therapists and, and they have to learn. It just kind of diminishes the whole industry in a way because it confuses the public on what coaching is and what it's not.

B (23:01)

Yeah, luckily there's been more ethics introduced into coach training. And ethics is really the answer because it simply gives the practitioner a true understanding of their profession. What are the limits? What are the boundaries of my skills and my training? And that kind of sets people on the right track that they approach then the client's needs and desires in a pure sense and they're able to fulfill their mission statement of their profession in a clearer way.

A (23:38)

And I just want to say that if you want to be a coach, get training, get professional training. There's so many people. And then if you're looking for a coach, look and ask them where do they get certified? What was their training like? People don't ask. And because someone has like a million people following them on, on Instagram, they think they're, they have a, you know, some kind of status and the person has no training and no background and, you know, kind of copying what other people are doing and just fluffing it up. There's a lot of that out there. So it, as a consumer beware, check your, check your people that you're working with, ask them where their, where their sources are, where they're getting information. And then also if you want to be a coach and actually if you want to be successful for your clients, you're going to provide a better service if you're properly trained. If you're not properly trained, you're going to be just flailing around, just grasping different theories and, you know, techniques and putting them together. And your clients aren't going to get effective results and it's going to hurt you and them in the end. So we really recommend that, whether it's with us or other people, we totally recommend getting professional training to help you and raise the bar for the coaching industry and the standards that are there.

B (24:52)

Absolutely. Another.

A (24:55)

Go ahead.

B (24:55)

Well, another area that's really become important in recent years that was not around when coaching was in its infancy is, is Consciousness studies. Consciousness now has introduced this whole other level of personal development that coaching has such a great opportunity to fill that gap as well.

A (25:20)

Well, let's talk about that because. Define consciousness because I hear people hear the word and there's consciousness meaning being conscious and aware, and then consciousness being the Eastern definition.

B (25:32)

Yeah. So we can simply state it this way. Consciousness is not the mind, and it freaks a lot of people out, including me. It freaked me out when I started to study consciousness. It's not the human mind. The human mind is cognition. It's thinking, it's emoting. Right. Feeling, emotions and behavior. Of course.

A (25:54)

So some people refer to that as their consciousness. Right?

B (25:57)

Yeah. They think the brain. Well, in the west, it's been kind of part of the scientific study of the brain, that they consider the brain to be the kind of the source of consciousness. Right.

A (26:11)

And consciousness arises from the brain.

B (26:14)

Yeah.

A (26:14)

That once the brain is dead, the consciousness dissolves, it disappears.

B (26:18)

Yeah, that. That's kind of the standard scientific model that the west holds. And it's an important one, of course, because it gives us this understanding of neuroscience, which is really interesting. In the past 10, 15, 20 years, man, there's been an explosion of our understanding of the brain from the scientific perspective. So there's nothing wrong with it. It's simply that that's not the wisdom tradition, and that's not what the wisdom traditions teach about consciousness. They say consciousness is beyond the mind. In other words, we can't figure it out, we can't test it, we can't observe it. It's not like an energy. It's not like electricity or something that we.

A (27:03)

Yeah, the vibrational stuff that people teach, you'll raise your vibration. That's not consciousness.

B (27:09)

That's not consciousness.

A (27:10)

Well, everything's consciousness in a way, but it's not the conscious. The pure consciousness.

B (27:15)

Yes. Let's say the way it's defined. So the way it's defined is as the awareness that precedes all the content of consciousness or awareness. So if we look at the. Look around the room that you're in right now or the space that you're in, all the. This is content. There are objects, there are colors, there are forms, there's temperature, sensation. All that is content, meaning it exists. But where does it exist in consciousness, in awareness?

A (27:51)

Like a fish doesn't know it's in water in a way. Right.

B (27:53)

In a way. Or the space that it's in.

A (27:56)

Yeah.

B (27:57)

It's the emptiness that's there, the space that allows us to be aware of these things. That's a very different concept than thinking of consciousness as the content that your brain is processing.

A (28:11)

The cognitive processes and emotional.

B (28:15)

That's right. And that's the main difference. Now that's an important difference because then we can start to understand how does our brain appear to be conscious in this way that it is, let's say our awareness appears to be coming from our mind, our brain as well, and it's kind of an illusion. We understand it through perception. That neuroscientists are now saying our awareness is a type of hallucination because our brain is essentially making up the colors, the texture, the meaning of our human experience. It's all made up in our brain. It doesn't really exist out there. And that is a very kind of. It's a fact that, that supports the ancient view of consciousness, the wisdom traditions. And therefore we're on the right track. If we use the, our understanding of the brain to. To understand consciousness, then we're on the right track because it's giving us a clear picture of what is the mind, what is the brain, and what is consciousness and how can we access it.

A (29:36)

And so this non dual approach, which is our modern version of the Jungian, although Jung would agree non dualism, he just didn't go there because of back in the day. He needed to try to make it legitimate, his type of therapy. But I think the implications for a coach is. So let's say you have a client who is having a problem with their boss. You know, really simple, right? The boss doesn't appreciate me. And a cognitive behavioral coach might say, well, you know, how are you thinking about it? And you know, how can you stand up for yourself more? Or how can you take action to change your behavior, to stand up more or to confront them? And how do you hold your emotions and how do you respond to that? And really kind of I like rearranging the furniture a little bit. Like, how do you cope and manage that situation? A depth coach would say, hmm, that's interesting. I wonder what your boss symbolizes in your deeper mind. Like, what are you projecting onto your boss? How what live? Because we're now seeing that we're one with everything. That a boss is not appearing independent of my mind, it's part of my mind. So the experience itself is a reflection somehow, and not just a projection, but more like we're creating this whole reality and then looking at it in a more symbolic way. And. And sometimes that boss represents a part of you that you're not aware of, that you are critical of. Yourself, you know, or you don't see it. It could be many things, but we go deeper into the whole idea of, like questioning the reality instead of just trying to change or rearrange the outer world. It's like what's going on inside that's actually creating this reality. So it's a. It's a different approach. And so the Eastern philosophy is really sort of how. It's not sort of. It is how our brand of Jungian, our model of Jungian, which is neuromindra, brings in the Eastern philosophy. We bring in neuroscience as a way to understand the brain because we don't want to not understand the brain, but the brain isn't the cause. We're looking at the effect and what it does and how it's processing information, but it's not really the cause of the root of what's going to change us and how we're going to change. So understanding all three areas, the psychology, the neuroscience and the Jungian, in a non dual model, in a consciousness model, very different.

B (32:06)

Yeah. It is, in a sense, aligning the brain and training our own brain, like through discipline and through understanding, training our own brain to be in alignment with consciousness.

A (32:22)

I love that. Yeah. Because we know there's tons of research about just like being present with an emotion and how that helps change the brain instead of reacting. So we already have the research for that. But I love the idea of then instead of just fixing the symptoms, it's changing our whole perspective on what the world is and who we are and what's possible. You know, a lot of the motivational coaches will say, you can do anything you want and you can, you know, visualize your success and it'll happen. And it's. It's sort of playing around like a little spiritual entertainment. But we're really getting into those deep philosophical questions and. And the thing that's missing, I think too, in coaching, when I first started, the secret came out and everyone wanted to manifest something. The difference with our type of coaching is that you don't want to just manifest money or manifest a partner. You want to have a life with meaning and you want to create that meaning. And that's what the Jungian model really helps us do, is look at that inner world should be just as rich and profound and exciting as the outer world. And it's not just, I need to go fix myself so I can get those outer goodies. It's no, how do I make both worlds really fun to be in?

B (33:38)

That's right. People no longer just need A kind of more manifesting power. Right? Yeah, we, we have that. Human beings can create literally anything they want if they, they focus and they're, they're, their purpose is aligned, but they need more than that and they, they need this deeper alignment with these deeper forces in the psyche and in life that are amazing. Like the discoveries that we're capable of making are beyond our dreams and they can give us so much more than technology. There's nothing wrong with technology, but it's like a simple reflection of what is really powerful in our minds.

A (34:25)

Artificial intelligence is limited to our spiritual intelligence.

B (34:29)

That's right. And so we need to find ways of dealing with our conflict, both internal conflict as well as external. We see that.

A (34:41)

And also global, Right, Exactly.

B (34:43)

I mean, that's, that's what all the fighting is about. It's simply this lack of understanding of each other's motivation and how do we, how do we make those connections?

A (34:55)

I really love that, Rob, because it's like, you know, the whole idea of manifesting and yeah, you can create if you think positive enough and you go for your dreams and have a great mindset. Those are. You can make money, you can find someone, but it's not really, it's almost like you're trading in something of earthly power for instead of really finding out what is. Instead of how can I get that goal, it's more, how can I understand how I work and my inner power and how consciousness works and what's the potential I have within me? Then the goal becomes less heavy and less needy and it just becomes a play. A play. And you're not really attached. Like we teach Eastern philosophy and that whole idea of non attachment. I see so many people get attached to what they manifest and they want more and they're not happy. I've been in the coaching, you know, for so many years and I've seen so many very successful coaches have problems because they haven't dealt with the inner work. They're, they're out there manifesting and creating these great businesses and millions of dollars, but inside they haven't come to terms with who they are and why they want it in the first place. And I've had to ask that question myself early on. You know, why am I creating all this? Why do I want all this? My ego was like, yeah, yeah, that sounds fun, that sounds great. But then you have to come to terms with who you are and what life is about. Those other things become empty, the relationship becomes empty. If you don't know who you are, you just attract A person you get along with that are, that you get, you're a good match with or a job or a career that you kind of like, but you are still struggling with all this stuff that comes up in the process of creating a business. So.

B (36:36)

Yeah, yeah. So overall we're seeing this, the opportunity for coaching to really take the lead in personal development, but way beyond kind of the workshops and the retreats and to take it to everyone, anyone that's ready to change their lives and really find meaning and peace of mind that they can do it through these models and it's simply getting coaching. And of course our work is to train the coaches that will take the lead in that process.

A (37:14)

It's so inspiring. Especially when we first started, you know, we had our first training and we, you know, had a handful of people and now we have so many graduates and watching them, you know, kind of share deeper work that wasn't out there back then, you know, providing that, that really big gap in the, in the coaching market for people that want to go deeper and that don't want to fix themselves, that don't want to just a rah rah coach. That pop psychology, you know, they're looking for real depth and real meaning and something valid, you know, not just a flighting passive trend that's coming out or the next best selling book and everyone follows it and, and then they drop it for the next one. They're, they're looking for something to go deep with and so they keep digging those shallow holes and really getting a true transformation and something that lasts really last. Because you're going really to the root. You're not just fixing symptoms and rearranging the furniture, as I say.

B (38:14)

So in the coming episodes, we'll talk a little bit more deeper into some of these topics. We'll go into Jung's work, we'll go into Eastern philosophy. Non dual philosophy.

A (38:33)

Yeah. How Easter philosophy can complement coaching. And also. Yeah. Well, we do have a. Our next cohort starting soon. So if you are interested in this, this episode inspired you to think, oh, I think I want to learn a little bit of this type of coaching. Even if you're already a coach or a therapist that want to maybe switch or if you're new to coaching and you're like, you know what, I want to go right to the deep stuff. That's most of our clients. We'd love to have you in our program. So just check the link below. There's information on how to find out more about our work. Yeah, really excited for this episode and talk about coaching. That's what we're all about. So have a great week everyone. Let's say a prayer for the world that it hopefully the conflicts resolve and we can live in a little greater state of peace than we are right now and things will get better.

B (39:24)

See you next time.

A (39:27)

Thank you for joining us for Jung on Purpose with Deborah Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado of Creative Mind. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast before you leave and join us each week. We'll see you soon. Sam.