Attachment Styles: Explained & Exposed With Thais Gibson

Summary

Podcast Summary: Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter

Episode: “Attachment Styles: Explained & Exposed With Thais Gibson”

Date: March 31, 2026
Guest: Thais Gibson (Author, Researcher, Founder of Personal Development School)

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Overview

In this episode, hosts Kail Lowry and Becky Hayter welcome Thais Gibson, a leading voice and educator on attachment theory and healing subconscious wounds. The conversation dives deeply into the origins of attachment styles, their lasting effects into adulthood, and practical strategies for healing and cultivating secure relationships. With vulnerability and humor, the group explores both clinical explanations and personal stories, providing actionable insights for listeners at any stage of their healing journey.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Thais Gibson & Her Work

• [02:44] Thais shares her personal journey: growing up in a chaotic home, struggling with opioid addiction, and learning that subconscious programming drives behavior (“your conscious mind cannot outwill your subconscious mind”).

  “It’s not that I’m weak and incapable or don’t care. It’s that there’s a whole deeper thing happening—my subconscious has different motives.” — Thais [04:10]

• Out of her own healing process, she launched the Personal Development School at age 21, focusing on “integrated attachment theory” (IAT).

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2. Attachment Styles 101

Rebecca: “Can you just give an explanation of what those four attachment styles are and how they're developed?” [06:50]
Kale: “How do you figure out what attachment style you are?” [06:54]
Thais: Describes the main concept: attachment styles are patterns formed through childhood experiences, which shape nervous system responses, boundaries, communication, and relationship behaviors.

A. Secure Attachment

• Makes up about 50% of people [09:30].
• Developed through “approach-oriented,” attuned parenting—having emotions validated and needs met (not necessarily always giving in, but listening and setting healthy boundaries).
• Results in adults who trust, communicate openly, maintain boundaries, and have fulfilling relationships.

  “A child grows up thinking, okay, my emotions are worthy of being heard. It’s safe to express myself. My needs are going to be met when I do express them.” — Thais [09:55]

B. Anxious Attachment

• Rooted in inconsistent parenting or real/perceived abandonment (e.g., parents leaving frequently for work or through divorce) [16:44].
• Results in behaviors like people-pleasing, fear of abandonment, and seeking external validation (“I need to do everything I can to maintain proximity”).
• Characterized by difficulty self-soothing and compromising boundaries to gain love.

  “If you’re missing something at home, you’ll overemphasize it outside ... you’re more likely to accept red flags or breadcrumbs.” — Thais [15:06]

• Example: in conflict, anxiously attached people push for immediate resolution and reassurance [22:18].

C. Dismissive Avoidant Attachment

• Stems from “quiet” childhood emotional neglect—not necessarily dramatic, but lacking emotional attunement [29:55].
• Traits: high privacy, emotional distance, independence (“I just need people not to see me”), struggle with communication and emotional expression, “flaw-finding” in partners for self-protection [33:00].

  “They create a lot of distance and space. They feel uncomfortable in closeness...they just don’t really know how to cope.” — Thais [33:47]

• Often do well in relationships with lots of acknowledgment/appreciation, respect for autonomy, and acts of service [39:26].

D. Fearful Avoidant (Disorganized) Attachment

• Often comes from big “t” trauma or extreme inconsistency—parents with addiction, emotional unpredictability, or abuse [45:02].
• Shows a push-pull approach to intimacy: craves closeness, then withdraws (“hyper vigilant human lie detector” who notices everything) [47:52].
• Experiences both anxious and avoidant wounds (abandonment, betrayal, unworthiness, feeling trapped/helpless) and may oscillate rapidly between seeking intimacy and feeling threatened by it [48:12–54:51].

  “One day I’m like, I can see a future... 24 hours later, I don’t know if this is the right person for me.” — Thais [48:48]

• Frequently drawn to other fearful avoidants or dismissive avoidants; relationships often involve caretaking or “wounded bird syndrome” [53:55].
• May test partners during conflict (“I might as well just be done, but then I don’t actually want them to be done—I want them to fight for me.” — Kail [60:26])

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3. How Attachment Styles Affect Relationships

• Patterns of attraction: People are often subconsciously drawn to partners who mirror how they treat themselves or recreate childhood dynamics, even when consciously seeking something different [41:16, 43:41].

  “We are most attracted to what’s most familiar for ourselves. What’s most attractive is the way we treat ourselves.” — Thais [42:25]

• Attachment and love languages/needs: The way we express and receive love is filtered through our attachment style. Discrepancies can lead to unmet needs and conflict [76:05].

  “Love languages are a little more overarching. Needs are more specific and heavier hitting in how we give and receive love.” — Thais [76:05]

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4. Healing & “Rewiring” Attachment Styles

Thais: “We can’t change our childhood, but we can do the work right now.” [16:44]
Main strategies:

1. Rewiring Core Wounds—Identify harmful beliefs (“not good enough,” “I can’t trust”) and replace through intentional, repeated action and thought [71:09].
2. Meeting Unmet Needs—Intentionally give yourself what you didn’t receive as a child (e.g., self-protection, affirmation) [71:22].

   “Healing happens when we essentially become our own parents.” — Thais [71:22]

3. Regulating the Nervous System—Through mindfulness, meditation, or somatic practices, for at least 21 days [71:41].
4. Healthy Communication—Practice positive framing and clarify concrete needs (“Can we try to text every evening a little more frequently?” instead of “You don’t care about me, you never text me”) [73:09].
5. Painting the Picture—Be specific about needs (“support” can mean different things; define it: e.g., more encouragement vs. acts of service) [74:45].

• Commitment is key: Regular practice (“it won’t work if you do it three days, then not for three days”) [78:54–79:40].

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5. Parenting and Secure Attachment

Listener Question — [81:33]: “What are the top three suggestions or actions to avoid doing harm to my child?”

Thais’s High-Level Parenting Tips:

• Children are resilient: If you show up 80–85% of the time in a loving, present way, you’re likely still fostering secure attachment [81:59].
• Validate Emotions: Acknowledge feelings without always validating behavior (e.g., “I know you’re upset. I’m here for you. But it’s not okay to scream and cry like that.”) [83:10]
• Repair Core Wounds: When you see negative self-beliefs in your child, intentionally provide consistent, specific positive evidence (“look at how well you did on this test; you’re so kind to your friend”).
• Model & Encourage Communication: Practice asking what your child needs and build emotional literacy early (“Tell me what you need to feel better”) [84:10].

  “When you look at securely attached people as adults, what do they have? Less core wounds. They know their needs and how to communicate them... and they’ve seen modeled healthy communication.” — Thais [84:20]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Thais: “Your conscious mind cannot outwill your subconscious mind.” [04:10]
• Becky (jokingly): “Little does Kail know, this is an intervention for her based on the topic of discussion here.” [02:06]
• Kail: “If you’re about to tell me the fourth one is a combination of these things, I am going to go cry in the corner. I’m scared.” [45:02]
• Rebecca: “I thought this was gonna be all about Kail, but here I am.” [29:02]
• Thais: “If you didn’t get dealt the perfect hand of cards, you can heal!” [29:20]
• Kail: “I feel like so far I have characteristics of anxious attachment and also dismissive avoidant.” [44:37]
• Becky: “[To her wife] The first couple years of our relationship were just like a shit show...It's like I feel like you researched us.” [36:24]
• Kail (on conflict): “If there’s a conflict, I’m like, okay, they're going to want to break up, so I might as well just be done. But I don't actually want them to be done. I just want them to fight for me.” [60:26]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:44] – Thais introduces herself and her story
• [06:50] – What are attachment styles/how do you identify yours?
• [09:30] – Secure attachment explained
• [16:44] – Anxious attachment explained
• [29:55] – Dismissive avoidant attachment explained
• [45:02] – Fearful avoidant explained (with specific childhood examples and symptoms)
• [54:51] – Fearful avoidant “core wounds” and typical partnering patterns
• [71:09] – The five pillars of healing: practical steps and exercises
• [83:10] – Parenting takeaways: validating emotions, repairing negative beliefs, modeling communication

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Resources & Where to Find More

• Thais’s Courses & Free Attachment Assessment: personaldevelopmentschool.com
• Books: "The New Attachment Theory" (pre-sale); all books on Amazon
• Podcast: Thais Gibson Podcast (upcoming: live attachment breakthroughs with real people)
• Attachment Quiz: Homepage at Personal Development School provides a free, in-depth assessment

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivers a highly practical and compassionate roadmap for anyone seeking to understand their relationship patterns—or to break free of them. Thais Gibson demystifies attachment theory, providing examples that resonate with every listener, and offers hope that healing and change are not only possible but achievable. The candid, often funny rapport between Kail and Becky makes even the toughest truths accessible.

Essential for anyone curious about attachment theory, healing, or how childhood shapes adult love.

Transcript

[Kale]

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[Kale]

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[Thais Gibson]

Foreign.

[Kale]

Good evening, good day, good night. As Becky always says, we have a special guest on Karma and Chaos today we have Thais Gibson. She is a best selling author, researcher and founder of the Personal Development School PDS which is a global learning platform helping people heal at the subconscious level and build secure, fulfilling relationships. Which is something that we all talk about across all of our socials. So I'm super excited. This is Becky, my co host and welcome to the show.

[Thais Gibson]

Thank you for having me. Nice to meet you Becky. And nice to meet you too Kayla.

[Rebecca]

Nice to meet you too as well. You came to the right place because little does Kale know this is a intervention for her Based on based on the topic of discussion here. So I am excited. I feel like I need to just take a sip like seat back and see what unfolds in this episode a little bit.

[Kale]

I'm.

[Rebecca]

Did you say I'm scared? If you could just in your words, let's just talk through the elevator pitch of who you are. What you're passionate about what you're here to talk about. That would be just a level set of who you are.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay, let's do it. I am so bad at elevator pitching. I'm like, oh no. But I guess I'll just share a little bit about my backstory, which is I have a heart for helping people. Have always just loved meeting people, getting to know people, supporting people in their journeys. And I think a lot of that's because I grew up in a really chaotic household. Lots of, you know, big T trauma, medium T trauma, lots of things pretty repeatedly. And so I grew up being a fearful avoidant, attachment style and actually became addicted to opioids right before my 15th birthday. Struggled for about six and a half years with that. Did a lot of, you know, inpatient, outpatient rehab, a lot of those things. Things weren't really working for me and just so happened to be I was high functioning enough. I was kind of in psychology class one day and somebody said to me, your conscious mind cannot outwill or overpower your subconscious mind. And I don't know if you've ever been close to somebody who's been in active addiction or anything like that. But like, one of the hardest things when, when you are in it is that you tell yourself all the time, like, I'm going to get sober, I'm going to change my life. I know that I'm hurting people around me. I know that all these things are happening, but you feel profoundly helpless to yourself. And when somebody said that to me, like, your conscious mind can't outwill your subconscious mind, I was like, oh my gosh. It's not that I'm like weak and incapable or don't care. And I, you know, it's that there's a whole deeper thing happening, which is that my subconscious mind obviously intends to stay here while my conscious mind is like, no change, get sober, do your life over, you know, and my subconscious obviously has different motives. So I got really interested in trying to understand, like, okay, this is going to be the ticket to me healing and getting on the other side of this is like, what is happening at a subconscious mind level and how is that then impacting the rest of our nervous system? And it wasn't like that happened. And then I was sober, you know, the next day. There was definitely like a year or year and a half of ups and downs after that. But I actually came through the other side and so much. I credit that too with understanding my wiring, like what's actually happening? What am I running from at a subconscious level, what is my personal conditioning. And by being able to dig into that and heal at the root, it really allowed me to heal on that part of my journey and then obviously heal my relationships and everything else too. But what's happened over the past, I think, few years, because attachment styles have become a lot more mainstream, is there's a lot of, like, here's your attachment style, here's this information, but it's not. And here's how you actually rewire it if it's not working for you. And so my. My body of work, it's called integrated attachment theory. It's all about actually going into the root healing and then going from there. Because if we don't address things at a subconscious level, it's very unlikely that we see real change. And then the last thing I'll just say, about to wrap it full circ, is that when I. When I did heal, I was like, oh, my God, nobody's talking about the subconscious mind. So I went out and started giving workshops at, like, 21 years old. And I was like, out giving workshops to people for free. I was just trying to talk about it. I had my friends be like, can you stop talking about this? And so, like, I better talk to people who. Who are interested. And that accidentally started my practice. So I was still in school at the time, and I would tell people like, hey, I'm just giving a workshop. I'm still in school, I'm still finishing stuff. And people are like, we don't care. This is really interesting. So I actually ended up starting a coaching practice first before into counseling, and then started that at 21 and a half just before I turned 22. And I'm 36 this year. And so I've been doing it for quite a while. And yeah, I just love it. It's like my heart, my passion, and has been so personal for me on the journey.

[Rebecca]

Wow. Thank you for sharing all that. It's been. It's really cool to bring you on because this is a conversation that we talk about quite often here. I lost my best friend to an overdose in 2016. I have friends that are, you know, in an active recovery, which is beautiful to see their life continue on. So we talk about addiction. We talk about a lot of this on this podcast, if you could. I've. I actually don't have that much knowledge into attachment styles. Can you just give an explanation of what those four attachment styles are and how they're developed?

[Kale]

Can I piggyback off of that really quickly? How do You. How do you figure out what attachment style you are? Is it just like based on kind of the.

[Rebecca]

Like, I was like, I need to

[Thais Gibson]

know

[Kale]

kind of like the characteristics of each. You kind of can decide or. Because I feel like I might be a combination. I've done a little bit of reading up on attachment styles and I feel like I might be a combo and same for my kids.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. So all. So we took traditional attachment theory was like John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth and they talked a lot about kind of overarching themes of attachment styles. And then they talked a little bit about how those temperaments really is what they focused on. Affected adult relationships. We broke it in a lot more deeply. So I originally started working with people before I ever did attachment styles on just like their conditioning from childhood because that was a big part of my own journey. So it was like, what are your biggest wounds as an individual? Like your biggest fears? What are your biggest unmet needs from childhood? What is your nervous system doing on a regular basis? Are you in fight or flight or are you in rest and digest mode? AKA like sympathetic versus parasympathetic? Are you, what, how do you communicate? What are your boundaries and what are your general behaviors? Do you push away? Do you pull close? So we took like original attachment theory. We just built it way deeper with more characteristics and more archetypes. And I think that if I go through that part, it will really help you understand. Like, it's almost impossible to be like, okay, I'm not sure. So I can go through the archetypes. What we do is we have like a free assessment on our website, so people can actually go through, take the assessment and it's, you know, about 30 questions and then it's a lot more in depth. But if I start by giving the archetype of each one, then you can tell me which one sounds like you. I can ask you some follow up questions, then we can, we can find out. Does that work?

[Rebecca]

Dig into her notebook.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay. I love it. I love that you're like, we're gonna do the work. That's the best.

[Rebecca]

What better way to, to show people what you do than to just do it live?

[Thais Gibson]

Exactly.

[Kale]

People will have to watch this and be like, okay, we're taking notes. We're going on the website also where. What is your website? So people can go look it up.

[Thais Gibson]

So it's personal developmentschool.com so if you literally go to the homepage, people will see there's a free attachment quiz on there and it's pretty in depth and actually goes through the major pillars. So. So what was so interesting is when I started doing this work originally with people on like, their boundaries, their communication patterns, their fears from childhood, once I revisited attachment theory, I was like, oh my gosh, if I know somebody's attachments, I'll know exactly what fears they're going to have and what needs they're going to have. And it was just so interesting how there was that sort of overlap. So. So we'll go into it. So the first one is a securely attached person. It makes up roughly 50% of the population, which I even have a hard time believing still. I'm like.

[Rebecca]

I was like, I need a pen and paper too. Hold up.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Thais Gibson]

And securely attached people, We' in school. I love it. So securely attached people, they grow up in childhood with what. What's called approach oriented behaviors. And it sounds like a small thing, but it goes a long way. What it means is that, number one, the parent is really attuned to the child. So they pick up on signals of distress if the child's stressed or upset or crying, and then they actually approach the child to try to soothe them. And so what this actually means is that a child grows up thinking, okay, well, my emotions are worthy of being heard. It's safe to express myself. My needs are going to be met when I do express them, because somebody comes and tries to meet them when I'm in distress. And so I'm worthy of love when I'm having a good day or a hard day. Communication is safe. I trust that I can rely on people. Like just growing up in a household where that's modeled is so impactful for children, so attunement and then the attempt to soothe. And I think some people hear that with kids and they go, oh, so what am I supposed to do? Like, if my kid wants candy at 9pm or 10pm, I'm just supposed to be like, here's the candy. And no, it's not that. It's that you might go to your child and the child saying, hey, I want candy. And you might say, hey, honey, I know you want candy, and I know candy tastes delicious, but if you eat it right now, you're gonna get a stomachache. Why don't we do this? If you eat all of your breakfast, lunch and dinner tomorrow, you can have a little bit of candy after dinner, but we have to go to bed right now for that to happen. So you know what you're doing is you're hearing the child's needs, you're still talking about them, negotiating about them and then you're able to say okay, here's I'm gonna honor you. I'm gonna make you feel seen and heard, but I'm gonna say no. Them communicate back and set boundaries. And so that's a very healthy modeling for kids and it's what generally creates a lot of secure attachment as adults. So that's the first one.

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[Kale]

Yesterday I went on somebody else's podcast and we talked about relationships and it came up, I have one daughter, I have six boys and one girl. And we were talking about, you know, the first heartbreak, right? Like, how are we going to get through that and things like that. And one of the things that I had said was that, and the host was saying, well, it's, you're, you're having those fears from, like, your lived experience, right? Like, my mom was very neglectful. I didn't have a healthy, like a healthy parent dynamic. I was emotionally neglected, physically neglected, all the things, right? And so it's really interesting that you're bringing that up because my first thought about my daughter growing up is like her first heartbreak. How am I going to handle that? But that was because I was looking for love in relationships and in men and in, you know, romantic relationships very, very young, where I feel like my daughter won't have that same problem, I hope, because I want to be able to meet her emotional and physical and just all of the needs, right? So that hopefully that's not, not, you know, the worst, right? When she's older, it's not. We're focusing on those types of, like, looking for love in all the wrong places because she's getting it at home 100%.

[Thais Gibson]

And so to your point there, what ends up happening is wherever we have deeply unmet needs in childhood because our subconscious mind is like a needs meeting machine. It's going to try to get those needs met in various forms. So if you're missing something at home, you'll overemphasize it outside of the home because your, your subconscious mind is literally yearning for it. And then when we're yearning for something and we're starving for something, we're Then more likely to accept things that come with red flags. Right. Or, or breadcrumbs. Right. If you're starving, you're gonna be like, give me the breadcrumbs. And so it's so interesting because that, because you're looking at it through that lens and you're trying to fill your daughter's cup in that way and make her feel supported and seen and heard. Of course, like everybody's still gonna have a first love. But when people are more secure and have that foundation at home, they don't put up with all the red flags. They don't lower their standards so much. They're able to have better boundaries. They're not going to put up with things that are unhealthy because they have sources of love both within themselves and within the home that allow them to feel like they're not starving for it and willing to accept whatever comes. Does that make sense?

[Kale]

Yeah, 100%. I just wrote down some of that stuff. I think our listeners are really going to love this.

[Thais Gibson]

I'm excited. Yeah, for sure. So that's the first secure attachment cell. So that's the only one that's actually secure. It's the first attachment cell. But what's interesting is that securely attached individuals as adults, they report not just having the longest lasting relationships. As somebody who's worked with a lot of couples, that doesn't necessarily mean that much. You can have lasting relationships that are very tumultuous and unfulfilling, but they actually report being the most fulfilled in those long lasting relationships. So they have healthy ways of connecting. So they feel fulfilled, they feel supported, and that's our secure.

[Rebecca]

Then we can't go backwards and get a secure attached style to our lives.

[Thais Gibson]

We can though. That's the worst. Oh yeah. So we can't go backwards and change it in our childhood, but we can do the work right now. So that's like all that I focus on is like, how do we rewire our attachment cells so that we can become secure? And it starts honestly in the relationship to ourselves first. So, so we'll get into how to do that and maybe like the. I'll go through the archetypes and we can get into the good stuff. So, so then we have, you can think of it almost as along a continuum. So we then have at one end of the continuum the anxious attachment style. Anxiously attached individuals, they get a lot of inconsistency growing up. And what we discovered is that they have a lot of wounds that come from that that are very specific. So they have specific wounds, specific unmet needs, specific patterns around boundaries, behavior. So we're gonna go through all of those. So it's super crystal clear. First thing is that inconsistency can create perceived abandonment. If a child really loves their parents, they feel really connected to their parents, but then their parents are constantly gone for work, for example. Then a parent, then a child goes, love is a really good thing. I have really good experiences with love. I want more of it. But it constantly feels like it's being taken away. So parents are there, they're very loving, and then they're gone for five days for work. Okay. Then gone for another three days. So love is there, love is taken away. Or we can obviously have the more intense, which is the real abandonment, not just perceived abandonment from inconsistency. And the real abandonment would be growing up in a fatherless home or a motherless home, growing up in dynamics where there's a divorce. And then, you know, parents just aren't really present after the fact. So real or perceived abandonment are those big themes from that. A child adapts to this because they want more love and they're missing it. They adapt to this by being like, I need two people, please more. I need to try harder. I need to do everything I can to maintain proximity. And so they essentially put themselves into overdrive to be who, whatever they think people need them to be in order to be loved and accepted. And so from that, they get these big core wounds. From an integrated attachment theory standpoint, point. The fear of being abandoned and alone, the fear of being excluded, disliked, rejected. Not good enough. Unloved, unsafe. Okay, so these are these huge wounds. Now, what's really interesting is I always give people the analysis that your wounds are, like, the root cause of everything in your life that goes wrong. And you can imagine they're like a tree trunk. So let's pretend that I'm an anxious attachment style, and let's pretend that I believe that I'm not good enough. Well, if you imagine that's the tree trunk. Okay. And by the way, I want you to think of it this way. Core wounds are kind of like a bear in the woods. So if you go into the woods tomorrow and you see a bear and the bear chases you and you're safe, thank goodness. But then you go back into the woods the next day, what does your mind do? Well, your mind is constantly bracing for the bear. Yeah, exactly. And so it's reprojecting out that perceived threat onto everything. And so now you're overreacting. That's great if it's a bear, but it's not great when you're going, oh, I felt abandoned as a child. I know the moment somebody doesn't text you enough or call you enough for a couple hours, you're like, they're leaving me. Did I do something wrong? Like, you're, you're reprojecting back out that threat. And if you follow that thread, whether it's abandoned, not good enough alone, if you follow that thread, that belief creates all sorts of thoughts. It's like a tree trunk with tree branches. So if you believe I'm not good enough or I'm unlovable or I'm going to be abandoned, you start thinking all of these thoughts like, it's my fault, I should do more, I should try harder. What else can I be or change so that they like me or they accept me. You think all of these thoughts. How do you feel when you start thinking those thoughts?

[Kale]

The thing that's concerning about this too is like, the society that we live in today, there are so many people who can't do the one income household where a parent is in the home all the time. And so with the prices rising and the cost of living going up, but the wages not going up, we're all forced to work more than we ever want to. And so then we have these children at home that we want, that we want to have, develop, you know, secure attachments. But like me, right? Like my kids do 50, 50, and then I'm working too. So like, I don't want them to develop an anxious attachment because I'm working, I'm not out partying, I'm not neglecting them. It's like I have to work to make money to support them. So what do you do in an instance like that?

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more with you. Society is like literally creating pain points for attachment problems right now, 100% just by the way that things are structured. But we can give a lot of, maybe I'll finish the archetypes first. We give the opposite of the wounds consistently. That's a big part of it. So, for example, if you know that your child feels not good enough, then you let them know all the ways that they're good. We'll talk about rewiring maybe in the second part, because they'll kind of end up bouncing around too much. But we'll talk about how to actually wire these things in so that we come full circle. Because just because we might have the context for these attachment wounds doesn't mean that they have to stay that way. And even if you're working a lot, communicating with your children, being present with them, letting them know that you are here for them, you care about them, doing things that are actually helping facilitate the messaging in opposition of abandonment, in opposition of that they're unloved. If we communicate through repetition and emotion, because it's part of how our neural networks are fired and wired in our brain. If we communicate through repetition and emotion, the opposite across time, it prevents them or rewires if there are already these existing imprints. So we can talk about how to do that in a really structured way. And the maybe second part of it, because there's a lot we can do there that's really tangible. So that with the awareness, even if our lifestyle is set up a certain way where we don't have a choice, which is like, so common for so many people right now, because look at our world and look at society, there's actually hacks that we can do to prevent that from taking place.

[Kale]

The more, you know,

[Thais Gibson]

100% so. So if we look at these wounds, right, you have the not good enough or unloved or I'll be abandoned. Then we think all these thoughts, we feel this. This anxiety. And then neuroscience has proven every action we take is based on these beliefs and thought patterns. So arguably, you know, if you're feeling not good enough or abandoned or alone, then you might be texting a lot, calling a lot, accidentally violating people's boundaries, trying to win people over all the time so that you feel good about your sense of self. And what ends up taking place is that if you're not in charge of the fact that these core wounds exist at a subconscious level, you're not really in charge of your behaviors. So because this is like the root of what's stimulating all those behaviors, so we can rewire these things and change them. But it's really important to recognize that thread. So anxious attachment cells, those are a lot of their big wounds and fears. They project them onto their relationships all the time. It causes them to cling, try to maintain proximity so strongly. They're the individuals who, if there's a conflict, they're like, let's resolve it right this second. And, you know, I've often seen couples where there's like, an avoidant and an anxious person and the avoidance, like, I need a minute. And they go into the other room and close the door. And the anxious person goes in and opens the door, and they're like, no, we're talking about this now and they're following them around the house and, and you know, there could be a lot of these types of themes because the anxious person doesn't know how to self soothe very well. They only really know how to soothe through others. So they're constantly trying to get closer and get proximity and solve it right this second. And they may call or text a lot and they have a really hard time sitting with themselves. And as a result of this, they don't know themselves very well. They don't really have a strong sense of self as a whole. And we'll generally see as well that they become individuals who are so willing to compromise on their own boundaries and standards in order to try to gain love externally. Now you probably think hearing this from what you just said about your childhood that you are anxious. I'm gonna guess from what you said about your childhood, you're actually not that one.

[Kale]

Oh, okay. I know every single piece of criteria for anxious attachments.

[Thais Gibson]

You can tell me in a minute, but I think you're gonna be the very last one that we go into.

[Rebecca]

I think that I'm anxious.

[Kale]

You're anxious for sure. You're anxious attachment.

[Rebecca]

Yeah, I think that I'm anxious attachment and I think Leah's avoidant because like I'm the one like storming into a room. We need to talk about this right now. So. But I have done a lot of healing. So I like, I'm not actively in those things but a lot of like my prior relationships I think about the like compromising for and like all the things and people pleasing and just like wanting to be included and like all the things. So I, I luckily I've done a lot of healing so like the abandonment isn't as like relevant in my life as it was probably 10 years ago or five years ago or even five years ago.

[Thais Gibson]

But yeah, that's amazing.

[Rebecca]

Fascinating.

[Kale]

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[Thais Gibson]

And it's interesting because you you'll often feel resentful of relationships. You feel like you're pouring into people and trying so hard and that people aren't like giving it back. Maybe I'm not healed.

[Kale]

It's not linear though either. Like sometimes you might be in a good place and then it doesn't. It's not just a straightforward trajectory, right? And I've definitely been in situations where like not just like romantic relationships, but also friendships, family members, whatever they feel like they're pouring into me and I'm not avoiding them or trying not to pour back into them. It's just like the capacity of how many relationships I can maintain at one time. Time that's been really challenging.

[Thais Gibson]

You're not going to be a dismissive avoidant either. I really think you're going to be the fearful avoidant from what you said. So and so we'll talk about that. That's that we'll get into that in just a second. But you'll see, you. You kind of have both sides too. It's the only one that kind of goes both sides. Great.

[Kale]

Add that to my diagnosis.

[Thais Gibson]

We'll go into. And it's easy to heal them. It's not that hard to heal them. We take people through like 90 day programs and like people have amazing results. Like, it's not as crazy as you think. And also to your point, Rebecca, it's, it's, it's a continuum. So, so you, you maybe you have little parts of it that you feel like are still there. We said, oh, I'm not. Maybe I'm not healed. It's not like one or all or nothing. It's. You may have come up and have little moments of it or have little parts of it that are just little things you want to rewire. And what's really interesting just on the anxious one before we go to the other ones, is that a lot of times the anxious one, how they keep their, their cycle alive is exactly what they're afraid. Afraid that other people do to them. They often use themselves. So it's like, oh, I'm so afraid everybody will abandon me, so I'm gonna abandon myself to please others. Or I'm so afraid that people will exclude me that I will exclude myself from the decision making process or from stating my needs or my boundaries so that I can just go fit in. Or I'm so afraid that people think I'm not good enough that I'll put myself down and think of all the ways they may not like me so that I can then try harder to be good enough. But it's like you make yourself feel not good enough.

[Rebecca]

I really thought this was gonna be all about Kale, but here I am.

[Kale]

Just don't be a hater, okay? Because you fit right in here. I do feel like until we get to the next one, I do still feel like I'm anxious attachment. But I will have two more. Yeah, you're right. I'm waiting patiently.

[Thais Gibson]

And the other thing to say too is that conditioning is always happening. So I always reference it in childhood. But people like, that's why you hear things like you're the sum of the five people you spend the most time around. Or if you're in a long term relationship with somebody, you see how much they rub off on. Like you take on their mannerisms over time and vice versa. Because. Because anything that we're exposed to through repetition and emotion over time, fires and wires Neural networks in our brain and our nervous system. The rest of our nervous system responds to that. So conditioning is not only in childhood, it's happening all the time. But we're gonna. In the second half of this, we'll talk about how to leverage that for our advantage. So you can heal if you didn't get dealt the perfect hand of cards.

[Rebecca]

I'm ready.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay, so going to the other one. So the sort of opposite of the anxious attachment cell is the dismissive, avoidant, dismissive avoidance. Grow up with a lot more childhood emotional neglect, which is interesting. But that childhood emotional neglect is not always really loud. So sometimes we think of neglect and we're like, oh, my gosh, you know, food's not on the table. Parents are never around. It can definitely be that, and it can be more extreme. But a lot of times for people, it's more subtle. It's like a lot of avoidance will be like, oh, I had a great childhood, but there was no attunement. So, you know, parents might have the kids at school on time and breakfast is on the table on time, but the parents are emotionally just unintentionally involved. And so if a child cries or expresses emotion, parents shut it down. They deflect it. They just have no room for it, and they really dismiss their kids. And so then children who grow up in this environment, they end up internalizing this. They're like, okay, this part of me. Because children are literally wired for attunement, and they're. They are wired to yearn for it. They feel safe when they have it. They feel very unsafe when they don't. When that's missing, they make that mean. All children's minds personalize things, so they make that mean, well, I must be broken. You know? And what we found from an integrated attachment theory standpoint is the biggest core wound of dismissive avoidance is I'm defective. And so, you know, I must be shameful or defective or broken deep down, because here I am, and I want this connection, and nobody's really mirroring it back to me. And so what they do is they decide, okay, this part of me is literally not worth showing. I'm weak. I'm defective. These are their big core wounds or fears. I'm weak. I'm defective. They feel trapped, helpless, powerless in a dynamic in their home where they can't get their needs met, but they're stuck there. So they end up thinking, okay, I'm trapped. I'm helpless and powerless and broken. And their way of dealing with all this is like, I just need people not to see me. And they deal with this by saying, okay, I'm going to create a lot of privacy. I'm going to create a lot of distance and space. They feel really uncomfortable in closeness. And then as a result of all of this, they end up being individuals who, as they get older, they end up going, okay, I'm gonna get close to people in the first, like, four, five, six months. They're like, this is good. We're good. And then as soon as things get real, they're like, I gotta hit the eject button. I gotta get out of here. You're making me feel all my fears from childhood. And they usually push people away or sabotage relationships because what they're actually sabotaging is they're trying to escape the fears of going back to feeling vulnerable in childhood. And, like, they couldn't get their needs met and they were trapped or helpless or powerless. And this fear of being seen as shameful if they do open up too much or they're too vulnerable. And so we have this individual who then consecrates space or distance. They do a lot of what we call flaw finding. And flow finding means that they'll try to look for all the reasons the relationship would go wrong, all the flaws in their potential partner. Because what they're trying to do is basically convince themselves that, hey, if it all went to shit, I would be fine. Like, I don't really need you. And so they're always trying to disappoint. And they're the individuals in a conflict who they have a really difficult time articulating their feelings because they've tried so hard to suppress all of their feelings down. And so a lot of times in a conflict when people are trying to communicate with them, they are like, you know, icing people out or deflecting or stonewalling because they just don't really know how to cope. And a lot of people think it's like, you know, intentional and it's trying to be punishing and mean. There goes my light. Intentional and punishing and mean. But the reality is that it's not intended that way. There's actually there to. They're just in learn helplessness. They don't really know how to approach this dynamic in any other way. So they get stuck like that. And so that's our dismissive, avoidant. They usually end up in a lot of relationships where they're constantly distancing. They're the ones trying to avoid the conflict rather than deal with it as. As, you know, straightforwardly they struggle to communicate, they struggle to text back with people after closeness they usually will just kind of drop off completely. Like if they feel really close to people, they may turn around and tear, sort of go missing especially in romantic relationships and sometimes for like a couple days at a time and people are like what the heck is going on? But it's because their nervous system does not know how to co regulate and they're scared of being too tight knit with anybody. It just feels very, very confronting for them.

[Rebecca]

This is Leah, my wife to it.

[Kale]

Okay, that's definitely not me but I could see that, I could see that being people that I've been in a relationship with before. That one's tricky I feel like because that one feels more like it makes sense for the parent. For the parents that are working like when, when you were describing the anxious attachment and like or no, no, you,

[Thais Gibson]

you're on the right track and here's the nuanced difference. I know exactly what you're going to ask. You would think that because the parents are working there's some more neglect and there'd be more distance. But when parents are back from work they're super present, super available. How conscious mind gets wired and it's really important to notice this is that we are always going to be wired to go into overdrive to fulfill things that we think are good and yet we don't have enough of. So for example, if somebody comes in and you know, you get a whole bunch of money in your bank account, somebody gives you a bunch of cash and then they take it away, you're going to be like oh I need that cash back. We go into overdrive. But if somebody instead comes into your life and is highly critical and mean and then they go away, you're like oh thank God, right? So what happens? And this is that really important difference is that anxiously attached individuals, they have really loving, warm parents when they are there. So they feel like that love is a really good thing and yet it's missing. So they go into overdrive to people please to try to get it, you know, fulfilled, dismissive avoidance. They don't really have many positive emotional associations with love. They're like I just feel trapped. I feel that I'm disconnected from, I feel misunderstood, nobody's there for me. So they actually think, trying to connect and have this closeness. I just consistently feel rejected around it. And so I don't want this. I actually want to create distance from it and by not needing I then get relief. So then their adaptation is rather than People pleasing, they go in the exact opposite direction. They're like, I just need to not need anybody at all. And I'm going to become hyper independent and do my own thing. And that's where I then feel like I have a sense of control over things because trying to need and then never getting needs met, I don't have any control. And so that becomes their adaptation. And that difference is, is really important. But that's who you're going to ask, right?

[Kale]

Yeah, about that part, but that makes sense.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah, it's a great question. And then just to your point too Rebecca, is, is that anxious and dismissives often end up together, which is very interesting. We often end up.

[Rebecca]

Yeah, that's so funny. It's what's really sticking out. Like you said, 50% of people are, are like securely attached people. That's crazy to me that people like there's just so many people living in a securely attached way out there. But it's funny. So Leah and I have been together, it'll be 10 years this year. And the first couple years of our relationship were just like a shit show obviously. And like she would break up with me like, like there was a bunch like of that from the exact reasons that you are saying, right? Like she didn't deserve a happy ending. She didn't believe in like all the others like thing. So I like, it's like I feel like you researched like us just in the things that you were talking about.

[Thais Gibson]

And, and to your point too, they do that. It's called deactivating. So they, they constantly want to create distance and space because, and honestly it's, it's. They can, sometimes they do it the most. And I don't want to say this always because I don't want people to be like, oh, then if somebody's pushing me away, yeah, they just love me. But, but a lot of times when you're in a close relationship, a lot of times, times from having many conversations with dismissive avoidance, they say like I push people away the most when I really feel something because it's too confronting, it's too scary because it's triggering all that vulnerability and all their programmed associations with vulnerability, all their conditioned associations like, oh, vulnerability equals I just end up feeling really bad. And they also really struggle to communicate their needs in a relationship. If you ask them, they'll be like, I don't have needs, I'm fine. But the reality is that like we have to communicate our needs and if we don't, then that's where we get stuck Stuck. And what's interesting too is each attachment cell has really specific needs. So it's not always exactly this, but the main ones for the anxious. The anxious attachment cell feels the most loved when they feel prioritized, validated, approved of, reassured. When there's certainty and consistency in the relationship, like where there's consistent plans and. And when there's affection, they're generally more love language. People who care about like physical touch and closeness and they want that sort of intimacy piece. And then we have dismissive avoidance and they love differently and. And they usually. Their big like, needs when it comes to love are like, respect my freedom and autonomy and independence and. And let me be my own person. Then they also have big needs around feeling appreciated and acknowledged. Okay. They won't tell say this because they won't know, but it's a really big difference. So validation versus appreciation. If you try to tell, it is missive a win. You're the center of my universe. I love you more than anything in the world. World. They're like, oh my God, you're overwhelming me. I can't. That's more like validation and approval and like those really romantic words or gestures. They want to hear things like, hey, thanks for having that hard conversation with me yesterday. I know that wasn't easy for you and I really appreciate it. Or like, hey, thanks for tidying like you took out the trash. I really noticed you. Thank you. They want those like really sincere things and that's when they're like, oh, I'm. I'm loved. That like really makes them feel connected. And then they also do really well with support. So if they feel checked in on or you bring them a coffee, like more almost like access of service.

[Rebecca]

Service.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Rebecca]

Like I'm physical touch. And Leah's acts of service.

[Thais Gibson]

Like, so it's crazy. It's like crazy how like nuance and detail.

[Rebecca]

Yeah, I can't wait for her to listen to this. I'm gonna like, make sure she listens to this entire episode.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah, I love it. I love it.

[Kale]

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[Thais Gibson]

And then what you'll see too is they the things that light them up that they like literally love so much that they will never say and often don't realize realize is when they feel empathized with. So when they feel like somebody understands their feelings because it's such an unmet need from their own childhood, when they feel like somebody's like hey, I get that probably made you feel uncomfortable or hey, when that person did that, that would have affected me. Did that affect you? I, I'm here for you. Like when they feel like somebody understands them without them having to articulate, it's a big thing for them. And then when they feel accepted, so if they feel judged or criticized, they head for the hills, they will avoid judgmental, critical people at all costs. And then when they feel instead like people in their life are accepting of them, you know, understanding of their actions and why they're doing what they're doing, that's where they'll, they'll generally go into limerence like they'll go into this sort of intense infatuation. So it's a really, really big piece for them. So those are the sort of overarching needs. And then just the one last thing that I'll say before we go to the last one, which is probably what you're going to be kale, is that we can consciously say and obviously if you've been with somebody for 10 years, you probably have both done enough work where you're dominantly secur. Um, and. But to your point that first couple years are probably A little more chaotic. So what generally happens is it when we meet somebody and we're dating them, we say, I want the available person. I want the, you know, I want the person who's ready for a relationship. We can say all the things we want, but at the end of the day, our subconscious mind is responsible for 95 plus percent of our beliefs, our thoughts, our emotions, our actions. So it's part of why, you know, when I heard that thing in my own initial journey to, to sobriety was like, oh, your conscious mind can't outweigh your subconscious mind. It's like, oh, your conscious mind can say, I want to get clean, get sober, change my life, change my attachment style, stop these behaviors. But unless you're addressing things at the subconscious level, you can say everything until you're blue in the face and like, nothing will change. And that's the importance of, like, rewiring things. So what often happens is a lot of anxious people, when they go out into dating, they'll be like, I want the person who's available, who's going to bring me certainty. But we are most attracted to what's most familiar for ourselves because our subconscious mind equates that to safety and survival. It's like we've been surviving. So whatever this is, is working. And what's ultimately most familiar to us is the way we treat ourselves. And if you follow this thread, what you see is that in childhood you get conditioned, and what you do, what's done to you, we usually end up doing to ourselves. So, for example, anxious attachment cells feel like there's abandonment, then they abandon themselves. And then what's most attractive to them subconsciously, which is running the show as an adult, is they're like, oh, I love people who abandon me. I love people who are emotionally unavailable. I love people because I'm emotionally unavailable to myself or because I'm not present with myself. And so they'll often. We often all the time buy into people. Even though we consciously say we want different or know better, we end up investing in people who mirror back to us how we treat ourselves because we equate it with familiarity and safety and survival. And so that's the importance of why we have to rewire these paths, patterns. Because until we do, then we just end up playing these things out. Unless you're somebody who is aware enough to do the work while in the relationship, which you can definitely do as well, and then you can turn it into something that was hard into something really beautiful. But a lot of people out there are Just out there replaying these patterns, not realizing and then just going back on that merry go round all over again.

[Rebecca]

It sounds exhausting. I'm out of it. Thankfully.

[Kale]

I feel like so far I have have characteristics of anxious attachment and also dismissive avoidant. A lot of what you're saying about dismissive avoidant is me, but then the bulk of the beginning that you mentioned is not necessarily me. So if you're, if you're about to tell me that the fourth one is a combination of those things and I am going to go cry in the corner, I'm scared.

[Thais Gibson]

The fourth one is a combination of those things. But we'll get into it and it will make sense. This is actually what I was too, too. And, and part of, you know, getting into this work was the fact that, that it was just so helpful to understand like this childhood conditioning. But basically. And it's a super solvable problem. So even if you hear yourself, it's kind of good news because you're like, oh, good, now I know what to do and I can go solve for it. But the last one is the fearful avoidant attachment style. So basically this individual grows up sort of historically with like a little more big T trauma. They're known as having this sort of, you know, generally what we think of as the most turbulent child childhood. So big T trauma, big T drama can be anything from, you know, a lot of fear in childhood where you feel like, oh my gosh, I'm walking on eggshells. I'm not sure who's coming or going or what's going to happen. But a lot of times it's the, you know, the, the trigger warning stuff. It's like the physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, any kind of abuse really. But generally we'll see these overarching themes, themes of. And, and I like to think of it this way, the best analogies are having parents who are like a narcissist or an active addiction or alcoholism. And if you just break down as

[Kale]

an analogy, right, because my parents were all three great. Love that. Love the big.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay, yeah, so there you go. Interesting. Yeah, I didn't know that. So, so if you look at this, and this is the really interesting part, it's like, let's say you just say, for example, that a parent's an alcoholic or Rebecca's just dying over there.

[Rebecca]

She's like, yup, check, check, check.

[Thais Gibson]

So if you look at the dynamic where, let's say a parent's an alcoholic, maybe one day they've had a few drinks and they're kind of in a good mood and love is sort of good. Like I actually feel a little connected to them today. Like they're actually being nice to me and there's this sense of like oh my gosh, love is good, I want more of it. And then another day that parent comes home, they've had many drinks and now they're really mean and crazy cruel. And it's like you get these really extreme opposites about the same thing. So like anxious attachment cells, they're like love is a really good thing. I always want more of it. And when people please my way into it. Dismissive avoidance are like love is not a good thing. My needs don't get met any distance. Fearful avoidance are like I don't know, love is a good thing and it's a threatening thing at the same time. And so that conditions them. While the anxious attachment is trying to get more proximity all the time time. And the dismissive avoidance trying to create more distance and independence. The fearful avoidant attachment cell. Their attachment strategy is to become super hyper vigilant. So they become individuals who notice everything. Micro expressions, body language, tone of voice, change. I joke that like fearful avoidance are the human lie detectors. Because like if you told the story one day and then told it differently, like three months later, three years later, they're like I clocked that. Like they're like you said this way three years ago.

[Kale]

We'll also you to the hyper awareness, like the hyper vigilance. You can predict whose footsteps, who is coming before they actually, before you actually see them, you already know because your body knows exactly who's in the house, who is that. You don't even have to see their face, you just could guess exactly.

[Thais Gibson]

And that's because you had to learn to attach that way. So if there was a lot of confusion where sometimes mom was in a really good mood, sometimes mom was terrifying, sometimes dad was kind of nice and sometimes he was terrifying terrifying. You need to, that's how you survive your childhood is you have to adapt to literally noticing how they're walking. I mean I had a client say to me once years ago when I was working with people one to one, she said, oh, I could tell when my mom closed the door when I was upstairs in my room. If I had to jump out of the bed and go close my door or if I could leave it open, I could tell by the way she shut the door coming into the house. Like these are the types of things that you'd think like you said the footsteps like it's all these little things because you have to think two steps ahead or three steps ahead because people are so unpredictable and often volatile that your nervous system's basically trained to be like, okay, I have to prepare for things all the time. And that's how you survive. And so, so what happens is because fearful avoidance grow up with both the, the hot and cold behaviors from home, that's internalized. It's how they treat themselves, and then it ends up being what they express in relationships. One day they feel all in, another day they're like, I don't know if I can stay. And they often flip flop. And even that internal cycle of flip flopping is so exhausting. Where it's like today I'm like, let's I can see a future. I can see myself marrying this person. And then it can be like 24 hours later, you're like, I don't know if this is the right person for me. I don't know what I was thinking. Like, there can be a lot of flip flopping in the relationship history because of these things. And what's actually happening is, first of all, you have some of the wounds of the anxious and of the avoidant. So from an integrated attachment theory standpoint, we publish that there are a few wounds on each side. So the fearful W has the wounds of abandonment. They have the fears of being, you know, not good enough. They definitely have a, a big, big wound of aloneness which shows up in very hidden ways. They feel like they always have to be the caretaker, the problem solver, the one doing everything for everybody. They carry the weight of the world on their shoulders and they often feel like people can't do it without me. Like, often fearful avoidance as adults will like, caretake for their parents or caretake for all the people around them, or sometimes even have a history of investing in people emotionally that they have to caretake for. Like we joke, like the wounded bird syndrome. Like a lot of fearful avoidance will be very attracted to people who they have to pull through life or pick up the pieces of, or a lot of those things. And so what we'll see is, and usually it's because it's your subconscious comfort zone from your childhood. So it makes me laugh when you just giggle on the side. But what you'll see is like, it's comfortable because that's usually what you would have felt growing up. It's like I'm around chaos and I have to try to fix it or caretake for it in some way way. And so that often Plays out in the adult relationships that we choose. How.

[Kale]

Who does a fearful avoidant typically end up with? Like on. Out of all these four attachment styles, is there someone I know? No. Yeah, I need to know. I. I need.

[Rebecca]

We'll give her an answer because she's probably gonna break up with Ike if he's not in that thing.

[Kale]

Well, because you said ancient anxious attachment is usually with dismissive avoidance. So what is is fearful avoidant normally

[Thais Gibson]

with so fearful avoidance often end up with other fearful avoidance. So other chaotic people or, or they very much tend to be attracted to dismissive avoidance a lot of the time too. We'll talk a little bit more about that, but it's based on what way you kind of lean a lot of the time. Some fearful avoidance will definitely date anxious attachment cells. It's like fireworks in the beginning. They feel like it's so good in the beginning, but a lot of times, because anxious attachment cells are very demanding from the fearful avoidant because they have such a, an intense connection early, the anxious attachments I'll usually expect like, oh, that level of intensity will stay. Whereas a fearful avoidant, when they bond deeply, they start feeling like, oh my gosh, I don't know how to have myself and my, my identity and a deep relationship at the same time. So they often will date anxious attachment cells, but then start pushing them away and kind of run away and feel like those, those boundaries are pushed on a little bit. So that's who they may end up with. This is not a, a game of Russian roulette though. This is like, hey, do the work, become secure and then date another secure person. Or if you're currently with somebody who's, who's also insecurely attached, do the work together. Both become secure together and you can still thrive. So don't worry about it being this like I'm now, you know, the scarlet letter of whoever I end up with. Like, you're not condemned to ending up with one person in a certain way. These are very solvable problems.

[Kale]

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[Thais Gibson]

that a lot of times people that they have to caretake for they chase after a little bit. They can end up with anxious people too because they have because fearful avoidance of this anxious and avoidant side. Basically at the end of the day they're most likely to be with other fearful fearful avoidance. But if they lean one way. So for example, for myself I was fearful avoidant but leaning more angry anxious. So I would feel a little more anxiety in the relationship. That was kind of the louder side of my attachment style. So I would often end up dating people who are a little more avoidant. And so you'll see like whichever way you lean, it's going to be more how you treat yourself. And that's what you're going to attract is the opposite. If I lean more anxious then I was more avoidant to myself, which means I'm going to be more likely to attract more avoidant individuals. Does that make sense?

[Kale]

Yes.

[Rebecca]

We would never work essentially is what she's saying.

[Kale]

Because I'm to begin with.

[Rebecca]

Well, I'm just saying we would have

[Kale]

worked but we weren't gonna date.

[Thais Gibson]

So. So when you go to the wounds, the, the core wounds, those big fears, it's the abandonment, the fear of being alone. But it's almost like I'm always alone. I have to take care of myself all the time and everybody else around me. The weight of the world is on me. That kind of alone. And then for sure this, this big wound, a feeling trapped, helpless, powerless. Big, big Wounds like if, if somebody makes you feel trapped or encroached on, it's usually a really strong push away. Helpless is really interesting when people hear it. Helplessness is the fear of if I rely on others, if I ever have to rely on people again, I'm going to be left feeling helpless. Like this fear of leaning in or gaining support from other people. Usually fearful avoidance have a really strong independent side. Well, dismissive avoidance are like very independent. And they're going, I'm so independent, I don't need anybody and I don't want anybody to need me. Me. Fearful wounds are in the middle. They're like, I don't need anybody, but I want people to need me. I'm, I'm gonna, And so they have that sort of middle ground piece and they often put themselves in a history of one sided relationships where they're meeting the needs of everybody else but they're not communicating their needs. So their wounds are the abandoned, alone, trapped, helpless, powerless. But then their biggest ones that we publish from integrated attachment theory are the, the, the wound of betrayal. So kind of always assuming, it doesn't even have to be that you think somebody's going to cheat or lie all the time. But, but a lot of times it's, it's this fear of I, I, I trust you now, but how could I possibly know that in five years?

[Kale]

No, no, listen, because like I have this thing, right? Like think of a proposal. Like an engagement you proposed to me on, on April 2. By April 30. Do you still feel that way? Like you said you did that 28 days ago. So like I don't think that you still love me the same as the day that you proposed.

[Thais Gibson]

Textbook fearful avoidant. I used to feel like this too. Every fearful one I ever worked with, anyone that ever came into your programs, the same exact thing. And it's like I trusting you. But how can. And part of it honestly it's like a little bit sad, but, but again solvable problem. Part of it is that if you couldn't trust your parents growing, growing up and they were so unpredictable, then there's this fear of like, well how could I trust somebody who comes into my life originally as a stranger?

[Kale]

Like I used to get my ex husband went to basic training for the military and when I would get his letters like a week late, I would have to convince myself to read them because I felt like, because it was a week late, his feelings may have changed since he sent it. So I was like, okay, well if he sent this last Saturday, his feelings may have changed. And then he might have sent me a letter saying he doesn't want to do this anymore. Anymore. So if I get excited because he sent me this love letter that he misses me so much, and then three days later and I haven't received the one where he changed his mind, like I might as well just not read this and get my hopes up.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. So let's unpack that for just a second. So there's two roots. There's two. Two roots. Okay. One is that you have such big core wounds. So on one one side you feel like I can't trust. And that core wound, or at least like the bear in the woods. Right. You projected onto everything. If you couldn't trust Gray up, then how can I trust his feelings now for me? Second thing to unpack is that that's also a reflection of you projecting yourself. So because your feelings change a lot and go back and forth, so you project that on to assuming that that happens with other people.

[Rebecca]

Hell yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Kale]

And.

[Thais Gibson]

And so then. And that's not the only one that really does that is fearful of what other attachment cells don't really do that in the same way. Go back and forth. And it's because you have core wounds on both sides. So one day you feel anxious and afraid of abandonment. You want to get close and you're so in this side. Another day you have this avoidance side to you and you're like, I need distance and you want to push away. And so you have such a range of how you feel about a person that you assume that onto everybody else. But the vast majority. Yeah. No, no. But do you notice that in your condition?

[Kale]

Yes, 1,000%.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. And so noticing too that even when you're in that range, you feel more based on your triggers, but when you step out of the triggers, you still have underlying romantic feelings that haven't changed too much. So for example, you might be doubting the relationship one day, but that same day that you doubt the relationship because you're feeling trapped or you're needing to deactivate or you're trying to convince yourself you don't need the person so that you feel a sense of control or Satan safety when you're in that if he. If that person in your life, if your boyfriend then came and said it's over, you would probably be like, wait, I don't want it to be over. Yep. It's a reflection of you needing to deactivate and self protect. It's a reflection of your triggers, not your romantic Feelings. And there's a difference. And so when you sit there and you, you project, which I like, I get it, I've been there. But when you, when you sit there and you project, assuming that somebody's romantic feelings are changing all the time, because that's what you know, so you project it onto other people. It's what we all do, by the way, no matter what our attachment. We think that everybody, everybody is how we are. We think that everybody loves how we love. Hence why anxious attachment cells are always giving, like, lots of love to their avoidant partner, who's then like, wait, I need distance or space. You know, we, we do this. If you look, there's a difference between how you feel when you're triggered versus how you feel about a person. So one is your wounds and triggers, another is your underlying romantic feelings. And you're going back and forth here from your anxious to avoid inside. And so it feels like your actual feelings are changing so dramatically about a person, but it's your triggers that are coming up. And if we peel back those triggers away, you would be just like any other attachment cell with the same underlying feelings for somebody that don't go away overnight because of your emotional state. Does that make sense?

[Kale]

So, like, in conflict, right? Like for someone like me, which is fearful of what it is I. Fearful, yeah, there is a conflict. I will try to protect myself. This never works, by the way. But so like, immediately, if there's a conflict, I'm like, okay, they're going to want to break up with me, so I might as well just be done. But then I don't actually want them to be done. I just want them to fight for me.

[Thais Gibson]

Yes. And so, and so that's actually a. One of the main behavioral strategies. It's kind of like a testing thing. It's. Yeah, let me push you away to see where you actually stand, because I don't trust how you actually feel. But, but what's happening? So, like, let's look at that for a second as an analogy. So a conflict. So let's say a conflict happens sometimes. In a conflict, you actually want to push somebody away very hard because you're like, I need to push you as far away as possible because you're causing me a lot of pain. I need to push this pain as far away as possible. So, you know, fearful winds actively will push people away. A lot of times in relationships, like when I was fearful, avoidant, and, and we see this with every person who comes in. Sometimes they'll threaten to break up in Relationships like, hey, this is done. I don't need this. That can be a big theme or pattern or, or. And part of it is they're actually trying to get like, where does somebody stand? But part of it is also because they're. They feel so much pain because they have a little bit of deeper wounds from their childhood than the other attachment style. They get highly triggered in situations a little bit more. And so then what ends up happening is you want to push somebody away. But then you can almost imagine that that's you not in sober mind, right? You're emotionally not sober because you're so hurt and triggered. And what a trigger actually is, just so you know, is your subconscious mind stores everything. And so you know you have a trigger coming up. And it's like your conscious mind goes to, your subconscious mind, says, what do we know about feeling this way? And your subconscious mind pushes forth all the times you ever felt like this in your life, all the times you felt abandoned, or all the times you felt betrayed or trapped. And now you're experiencing the emotional reality of what's happening in front of you objectively, plus all of the subconsciously stored experiences from the past that are now coming to the surface. And so no wonder you feel so triggered. It's like if you go through a lot of hard things that doesn't. That lives in us until we rewire it. So. So now you're super triggered. You push the person away. And then you have this idea that, like, my feelings change on a dime, but you want to really get clear about the difference. It's really helpful to get clear about the difference between my romantic feelings are still there underneath. It's how I'm feeling about how triggered I am that's actually trigger feelings. Romantic feelings, two separate things. Romantic feelings are still there when I'm triggered. I think I need to push this person away. This isn't working. I want to push them away. When I calm down after a few hours or a day, then I come back and I'm like, wait. I push them away. I love this person, so I care about this person. And it's because you're feeling your emotional feelings, your trigger feelings and your romantic feelings didn't change. They're underneath. But they get. They get drowned out in the moment by how intense the trigger is. And so then because that happens to you, you conflate the two things and you think because my feelings change all the time, not differentiating romantic feelings versus trigger feelings feelings, that then everybody else's feelings change all the time. And so we project that onto other people and then we sit there going, so I can't trust that you still feel the same way about me. I can't read the letter. And you wrote this a week ago. And so your feelings might have changed, but just like anybody, first of all, if they weren't a fearful avoidant, that's not even happening to them in the same way whatsoever. Second of all, second of all, even if they were triggered, their triggers and romantic feelings are still two separate things. Does that make sense? Yes.

[Kale]

I just need to figure out which one my boyfriend is so I can

[Thais Gibson]

act accordingly, predict his behavior, protect myself,

[Kale]

don't self sabotage all the things.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay, we'll talk about rewiring your attachment style at the end so that you can, you can move through these and he can too. So, so that's. So you have the fearful avoidance. Their, their big triggers are their betrayal, the abandoned, alone, trapped, helpless, powerless. And then also they tend to have these two other triggers. Well, kind of three. The, the belief that they're unworthy. So a lot of fearful avoidance, over deliver, overachieve, overdo everything just to feel acceptable at all. Like they sort of have this belief that if I'm not over performing or overachieving in my life, then like how could I even trust that somebody would love me? So there's this big like unworthiness core wound where they over compensate a lot. And then the other one, the other one is, it's so interesting. It's an I am unsafe core wound. And when I tell fearful avoidance this, they're like, no, I feel safe, I can protect myself, I can fend for myself. But your nervous system feels unsafe if you are chronically operating from fight, flight, freeze or fawn mode. So if there's a lot of like I people please and then I fight or I have an over defensive response, or I freeze or I, I flee a lot, I push things away and I try to run. Then like your nervous system's not, yeah, your nervous system's not usually feeling so safe. And the very last one, one is this I am bad wound where if you get punished a lot growing up for like random stuff like let's say, you know, in a, in a healthy childhood household, there's rules. If you yell at your parents, you get punished or there's consequences, you get sent to your room, whatever it is. But if instead you grew up in a household where your parents just take out their anger on you and they just yell at you because you laughed too loud, or they yell at you because you were, you know, having a fun time and they just weren't there for it at the moment. Then you end up feeling like I'm just always going to get punished and be seen as bad. Bad and so fearful. Wouldn't do this thing where they feel like this chronic need to over explain themselves. Like I have to over explain why I did what I did or that there's almost like trying to get around you thinking that I'm bad or wanting to be mad at me in advance. And so it's something they usually have to work on is they over justify, they over explain and they'll do things where somebody says there's just always assuming that people are going to misunderstand them and that they have to then explain that they're innocent. And so we'll see a lot of those themes where they'll send these sort of long messages to things or, or you know, they'll have that sort of anxious side where they're trying to convince people like no, no, no, this is actually what happened. Let me tell you in detail. So those are their big problems.

[Kale]

That part is interesting to me because I don't think that I had that like I am bad from when I was a child child like a small child, but just from being on reality TV and the comments and the things that people have said about me online and constantly find the need to defend myself or explain things before I'm directly asked. I think that piece came later like in my late teens, early 20s and just like the conditioning of being on reality TV and seeing all the criticism that piece came from that in my

[Thais Gibson]

opinion, yeah at that that's definitely possible. Conditioning is always happening. I would hold up to that just to see that sometimes people are on reality TV and they just shut down at all and don't look at things and they're like who cares what people think? Like, yeah, well, sometimes there's underlying conditioning there first. Oh 1000% be likely to be is often first dictated for by the fact that there's this underlying wound. Does that make sense A little bit?

[Kale]

Yeah. No, I just think that the, the I am bad piece of it. Everything else like that I feel unsafe to wound. I even to this day I live in fight or flight. Like I'm constantly and like I get a lot of for it. They're like, well if you were a good person then you wouldn't. You wouldn't be be this anxiety. Have this much anxiety about what something could come out. Right. But it's, it's not that it's just that I feel unsafe. Like I just don't know what's going to happen next, like that piece of it. But then the I am bad I think came later on. But everything else is definitely from my childhood.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah, so. So then we'll see the big needs of a fearful avoidant attachment style. Because everybody gets loved in a certain way and often what happens, we try to give love as we would need. So we're like, oh, you know, the anxious, like let me give these big grandiose compliments to my avoidant partner who doesn't want that at all. Or the, the amount of times I've heard dismissive avoidance say things like, oh my, my partner's going through a hard time. I'm just not going to ask about it. I'm going to respect their space. And they think that that's like a loving gesture. Meanwhile their partner's like, hello, I'm going through a hard time. You should be talking to me about it. Like ask me. And so the ultimate love is we would need to be left so fearful avoidance. Their needs are really interesting in relationship. So on one hand they have this sort of anxious side. They want to feel wanted and prioritized and they tend to be quite affectionate individuals a lot of the time they want depth of conversation. They do not do well with surface things like try to sit down and have a surface conversation with a fearful avoidant. They're going to try to be like get out of here or we're not interested. Yeah, exactly. And then what we'll see is that. So they have these needs for like depth and closeness and all these things and they need trust. They often won't vet for trust and prioritize trust in their relationships. But like if they don't trust somebody, at least to a degree feel like that person is a good person or trustworthy, then there's no way like it Just as soon as they start seeing people lying, they just start pushing away, pushing away. Like it's very. Things will just disintegrate very fast. So they need somebody to be pretty trustworthy in that sense and stable where like what they say and do lines up. They seem like they don't have a dark history or confusing history. And then on the flip side, they really need a lot of freedom. They need to feel like they have freedom in their relationships to be themselves. They really need a lot of autonomy. If you try to tell them how they should be operating or infringe on their, their need for choice or agency, they will like it's not going to go well. They also need a lot of novelty in their relationships, and they don't like to if things feel too comforting or not comforting. But if things are too in the comfort zone all the time, then they're like, this is. This is boring for me. Like, I need more. We need to change things up. We need to get out of the routine. Like, they. They need to feel like things are exciting. And they do put this sort of background pressure on themselves to always feel like the relationship is at a peak, it's at a high. If we're not having the best date ever, if this hasn't been the best week ever in our relationship, it's automatically on the downhill decline and it may not work out. Instead of just recognizing that there's like, this settling in that naturally happens in relationships, or we get off this, like, peak high, and then things. We settle in and things go really well more consistently, that kind of becomes like a scary pain point for them. So the last thing I'll say about fearful avoidance is that then fearful avoidance end up going through activating and deactivating strategies. So they are hot and cold, push and pull a lot of the time, because those core wounds internally are causing them to feel like one day they're all in. Another day they're like, you could hurt me and I can't trust you, and now I need to push you away and protect myself. And so they tend to oscillate back and forth between that side of, like, feeling anxious and wanting more closeness and the flip side of, wait, I need my space. You're infringing on it. And. And I don't know if this is working. And so that's sort of the archetype of the fearful avoidant.

[Kale]

Yeah, you were right. I am fearful avoidant. I fear that I am fearful avoidant.

[Thais Gibson]

There you go. So do you want to go into how we heal?

[Kale]

Yeah, I do, actually.

[Thais Gibson]

There are basically five main pillars for healing. So the first pillar is you have to rewire those core wounds. You're not born with them. They get conditioned into you through repetition and emotion over time, and you can change them. So I'll actually give an exercise at the end for how to do that, because a lot of people are like, affirmations or all these things, and, like, that doesn't cut it. That won't work. So we'll give an exercise that actually helps heal those core wounds, because core wounds create havoc in our lives. They're the things that devastate our relationships the most. So the first thing is you have to rewire those core wounds. The second thing is you have to learn to meet your deepest unmet needs. It sounds super cheesy, but healing happens when we essentially become our own parents. And I get people to write down like mom and dad on a page or each of your parents on a page and write a line down that page and then write the things that you didn't get from them that you really needed in your childhood because those are actually usually the things that we struggle to self source the most. So a lot of people will say things, for example, like, oh, dad never protected me. And then as an adult, you've never seen that, that boundary been set for you. So you struggle with your own boundaries, boundaries. And so it ends up being, well then how do you protect yourself? You go out in the world and you learn to set boundaries. So a big part of our healing is to give to ourselves through repetition over time, what we couldn't get. And that goes a really long way in terms of our healing journey. So, so rewiring your core wounds, meeting your deepest unmet needs, regulating your nervous system is huge. And we have to do that. It's not just, oh, do this practice for, for a week. It has to be through repetition over time for at least, least 21 days. And we'll talk about some exercise for how to do that. But that can even be through things like meditation, mindfulness, there's different, more intense somatic processing things that we can do. But I know we don't have like four, four days to go through all of it. So I'll, I'll kind of keep that high level for now. So reg rewire your core wounds, meet your deepest unmet needs from childhood, regulate your nervous system, and then learn to communicate in healthy ways. Almost every insecure attachment cell, anxious, even anxious really, but definitely the avoidance. They don't learn healthy ways to communicate. And so what you'll see, for example, is that dismissive avoidants just won't ever communicate their needs. Anxious attachment cells will try not to communicate their needs because they're scared to take up space and then be abandoned. So then by the time they do communicate, it kind of comes out as low level criticism, like you don't text me enough, you don't call me enough, do you even love me? And most people on the receiving end of that are like, like, oh, you're just criticizing me. Especially if they're an avoidant. They just take all that stuff right to heart. And so we practice positive framing, which is the difference between saying, you don't care about me, you don't. You don't text me enough, versus saying, hey, I really value when we connect more often. Can we try to text every evening a little more frequently? And that way you're saying what you do want instead of what's not happening. And it's much more well received. Okay. It's actually. It makes a massive difference in communication. Fearful avoidance version of this is that they hold everything in, hold everything in, and then they criticize a little higher level. They can sometimes cut a little deeper with their words because they're experiencing a lot of core wounds and pain around things. So they usually will people please until they've had enough. And then they kind of can be a little bit like a volcano erupting. They'll say everything all at once that they've been holding in, and it can kind of come out a little more intensely, but it's the same thing. It's like positive framing. Consistently what you need is extremely important. And the other thing, another high level communication tool, there's like a lot, but just some easy ones to pick from, is also painting a picture of what the need looks like. So I used to see with couples all the time that a couple would come in, let's say this one time, for example, it was a husband and wife. And they came in and the wife was like, my husband never supports me. And they talked about it. The husband said he wanted to support her more. They left that week. That was their, their plan. They came in the next next week, and before they sat down on the couch, the wife was like, my husband didn't do anything. He didn't support me at all. And his face was like, in such disbelief. He was like, I took out the trash, I did the laundry. He starts listing all these things. And she was like, no, no. I needed you to, like, encourage me. And so, you know, sometimes we say what we need, but we're not painting a picture of what it looks like. And because everybody has such different conditioning, it leaves a lot of room for misconception. So I always say to people, positively frame, but then paint a picture of what that looks like.

[Kale]

Looks like positively. But I feel like, is that where like, love languages would come in too? Because how you see how you feel supported versus how you support somebody else, like, they kind of have to be receptive to that. Right? Like, I'm. I know for a fact I'm an acts of service girly, but for me, for me, like, I just went over this whole thing with my, with my ex and the cheating and whatever. And he said that he always put me first and I never did the same for him. Right. And I ne. I wouldn't know what I know now if he didn't cheat on me. So in some ways it actually helped me. But like I wasn't showing up for him the way that he received that and like felt supported. Does that make sense?

[Thais Gibson]

Exactly. So you're so. So first of all, you're exactly correct. I like to work with needs a little more than love languages because they get more specific. So for example, I'm a big quality time person, but I have a big emotional connection need. And if I sit down and I spend five hours quality time watching Netflix with somebody, I'm with them, we're together versus one hour having a meaningful conversation. I'll take the one hour, any day of a meaningful conversation. So. So love languages are a little more overarching. Needs are a little more specific and they're heavier hitting and how we give and receive love. So I like to work with needs a little bit more. And even with your ex, the way you just said that, like he can say, okay, you didn't put me first. But like, well, what does that actually look like it really specific. Paint a picture, tell me your needs. He might have said, oh, more quality time together, but then you could have spent quality time together. And maybe what he needed was for you to ask deeper questions about him so that he felt seen and known. And those needs are a lot heavier hitting. So I just like to work with needs a little bit more than love languages. But exactly what you're saying is the exact principle, like that's it, like we give and receive love.

[Kale]

That was also with my boyfriend now like we were in Alabama last week and we had a conversation about it and I asked him, like, am I. Can you tell me how to show up for you the way that you would receive it? Like, can you tell me what, how would you receive love from me? And it was for him too, was also acts of service. I don't know if he realized that, but it, you know, certain things that I wasn't currently doing, still currently not doing. But will we just haven't had enough time yet. But yeah, I, that fully makes sense to me. And I, I guess I didn't know that the love language could go deeper than just what they are.

[Thais Gibson]

And what we can do too is like, so we have like in our programs we have these lists of needs and like you can go and you can circle with Your partner. And they're just the heaviest hitting way that we give and receive love. And it prevents challenges. Like, not to fear monger at all because there's so much more to it. But like, when we look at cheating in relationships, 10 of people cheat because of pathological reasons like narcissism, sex addiction, these types of things. 90 of people that cheat, they cheat because they have deeply unmet needs. Needs. And they don't know how to communicate them. And then over time they feel like, oh, like my needs are not being met. And then they get mad at their partner because they think the partner should be meeting their needs. And then they resent their partner. And then because the subconscious mind is a needs meeting machine. And we're literally wired to get our needs met. Like, this comes all the way back from like, we're wired to seek food, right? Like we're wired to just get our needs met. Then what ends up happening is over time, that resentment allows justification to be like, oh, well, I'll cheat because my partner doesn't care anyways. Or they're not showing up for me anyways. And so that's actually the root of why people often cheat, aside from like pathological issues. And so. And we can link a sheet if you'd like, in the show notes too. I can send it, but. But it comes from our programs and it's a list of the most common needs and relationships. So you can get really clear. Because I think a lot of people hear needs and they're like, I don't know, like, what are my needs? So that generally helps people really bridge

[Kale]

that gap a lot. I love that. Thank you for that. I love that. I do think that you have to be committed. You have to be in a good place to, to commit to those 21 days. But like, if you're committed to it, I. This sounds like it would work. It sounds like just like anything you put your mind to it. But you have to be willing to do the work. It's not like, okay, I'm gonna do this three days, I'm gonna do it and then three days. I'm not like, that's not, that's not gonna. I know that because when I was in therapy twice a week, I was working on the, you know, five, five things you smell, four things you hear, two things. You see, like that whole thing to try to like. And it became second nature to me to the point where it was like, I didn't even have to think about actively doing it. I was just doing it when I was Having anxiety. And so but you have to commit to doing it and to like the practice 100%.

[Thais Gibson]

Exactly. And that's exactly it. It's like, that's why when we set up our question, we're like, did you stick to it? Did you visualize? Did you? But the good news is, is, and I always say this to people too, if they're like, I don't know if I want to commit. I'm always like, okay, what is the cost of not doing the work? Like, what is the cost of literally like always fearing abandonment or always fearing betrayal or always fearing being trapped? Like, look at actually evaluating how that's affecting your life life and all the ways that you push people away or sabotage or shut down or you're so triggered. And all the ways that this is historically wreaked havoc. And then hold that next to like your five minutes a day of snoozing your alarm and listening and feeling about it in the morning. It's like, you know, it's so much more beneficial to stick to that five minutes. Saves time that you might have spent triggered and pushing people away and then dealing with the consequences.

[Kale]

Okay, so you have a podcast, you're a best selling author. Where can people find your podcast? Where can people buy your book or, or books? And where can people sign up for your courses?

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah, so our course [e-mail] People can take a free attachment assessment there. It's 30 questions if they want to go into our programs. We have a 90 day boot camp to rewire these five pillars all at a subconscious level to help people become securely attached. And it has an extremely high success rate on people becoming secure within that 90 days. And of course it's work for 90 days, but it's like so much more work to not do the work. So that's there then. My books are on Amazon. We're actually in pre sale for one right now. It's called the New Attachment Theory. And it's all about not just identifying your attachment style as a label, but actually doing the work to rewire it, because that's the whole point. And then I have a podcast which is called the Thais Gibson Podcast, which is actually just about to turn into in a couple months, we've just started recording it, but launching in May, me sitting down with people live to go through their attachment style, assess what it is, and then help them go through these live breakthroughs on the podcast to come through the other side of some of their conflicts or challenges or attachment wounds. That are showing up. So that will be really fun too.

[Kale]

I love that.

[Rebecca]

That's if you can give, like, just a couple of, like, tips or tricks for. I'm a new parent, so I'm curious of how to avoid, like, doing any harm to my child. So, like, what are the top, top three suggestions of actions of things like to do, not to do so that you don't turn out like myself or Kale.

[Thais Gibson]

You guys are amazing. You're doing great. So such a good question. And honestly, one of the first things that people say is they think when they hear this that, like, if I am inconsistent on Friday, you know, for two hours with my parents, with my child, they're going to develop anxious attachment style. Like, the first thing to note is that it's a ratio thing. It's about conditioning, is repetition over time. So if you're showing up, like 80, 85% of the time present or loving or, you know, in a healthy way, and then 15% of the time you're a little chaotic, like, they're still going to become secure. They're still going to. Because it's when we start getting closer to, like 50, 50, 60, 40, when things are more unpredictable, that's when it becomes a little more problematic. But here's what's really cool. Just like we talked about that exercise of how to rewire your core wounds. You can can extrapolate, sort of pull out those principles, which are that we all get conditioned through repetition and emotion over time. So if you start to notice a core wound in your kids, especially as they get older, like, let's say you have one of your kids coming home and, and they are saying that they're not good enough, or you hear them putting themselves down. Well, what you would do is intentionally, across 21 days, give them specific evidence in their life of how they are good enough. Like, oh my gosh, look at how well you did on this, this test. Look at how well you showed up. Oh my gosh, look at what a good friend you were to your friend the other day. So you start giving them that repetition, emotion and imagery to see outside of that wound and what that's actually doing. Especially because when they're younger, children very much listen to their. Their parents and take in that information as truth. And so when you start giving a lot of that, they start to be able to overcome their core wounds. And it's very effective to do as parents. So that's a huge one. I would also say when they cry or are struggling, stressed, validating their emotions, so you can validate emotions without validating behavior. So, you know, let's say they're having a temper tantrum. You can say, honey, I see that you're so upset. I'm here for you. And it's not acceptable to scream and cry that way. So you can validate the emotions of other behavior. And honestly, emotional validation is massive because children are like, I can trust that people are going to be there for me. I'm worthy of love no matter how I'm feeling. And the last thing I would say at a high level is, is communication about needs. So that will come a little bit later on if you're a recently new parent. But as they do get older, what you can start doing is asking them what they need. Hey, what do you need? If they're upset? Okay, what do you need? Tell me what you need to feel better. And they'll start. Even if they don't have the perfect answers. It starts to build emotional literacy at a young age to understand that. And now they've got these built in principles because when you look at securely attached people, what do they have as adults? Less core wounds. They know their needs and how to communicate them and meet them themselves. They have a more regulated nervous system which when we have that attunement and emotional validation, it's regulating the nervous system. And then they see model to them healthy behaviors and healthy communication, which is what you're just doing as a byproduct by sticking to those three things.

[Kale]

Thank you for those. For me as well.

[Thais Gibson]

Perfect.

[Kale]

Well, I. I hope to come on your show when you are ready to pick your brain apart. Thank you so much for coming on, Carmine Chaos.

[Thais Gibson]

Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. It was so fun with both of you too. Like the dynamic of back and forth. I loved it. It was amazing.

[Kale]

Okay, guys, we're back. You asked for it and we're delivering. Killer is going on tour. We're super excited for the fatherless behavior tour. 23 cities, three countries, all in one summer. And you guys can check out tour dates and see if we're coming to a city near you on killlowry.com and if you want early access to information and announcements, head over to Patreon because you might get it before everyone else.

[Thais Gibson]

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[Kale]

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[Thais Gibson]

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