Seasons of Friendships

Summary

Podcast Summary: Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter

Episode Title: Seasons of Friendships
Release Date: December 10, 2024

In the "Seasons of Friendships" episode of Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter, hosts Kail (referred to as Kale) and Becky delve deep into the evolving landscape of friendships as they navigate their 30s. Joined by guest Alessandra, the conversation explores the dynamic shifts in relationships triggered by major life events such as raising families, undergoing IVF treatments, and personal growth. This comprehensive discussion offers listeners valuable insights into maintaining meaningful connections amidst life's inevitable changes.

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1. Introduction to Friendship Dynamics

The episode opens with Becky posing a thought-provoking question: "If you could hear love, what would it sound like?" This sets the tone for an introspective discussion on the nature of love and friendship. The hosts introduce Alessandra, a fellow podcaster from Vibing and Kind of Thriving, highlighting the interconnectedness of their social circles.

2. Evolution of Friendships Over Time

Kale initiates the conversation by addressing how friendships have transformed throughout their lives. She reflects on the unspoken transition that often occurs in one's mid to late 20s, where individuals naturally drift apart as they grow in different directions.

Kale [03:24]: "It's like an unspoken rule of life that you go through this weird transition in your mid to late 20s... people are growing in completely different ways."

Becky resonates with this sentiment, sharing her own experiences of shifting from a vibrant social life in her early 20s to valuing deeper, more meaningful connections in her adulthood.

Becky [06:11]: "I do have those, like, solid core friends... I believe in quality over quantity."

3. Impact of Life Changes: Raising Families and IVF

The discussion pivots to how significant life events, such as starting a family and undergoing IVF, influence friendships. Alessandra shares her unique perspective as a mother of seven, emphasizing the challenges of maintaining friendships while prioritizing family responsibilities.

Alessandra [05:10]: "I just don't have anything else to give. And so there is no room for new relationships at this point in my life."

Kale adds that having children often leads to friendships aligning more closely with one's life stage, as peers also embark on similar journeys of marriage and parenthood.

Kale [07:57]: "My friends now, they're all getting married now and starting families now, so our lives kind of meshed to the same footsteps."

4. Reconciliation and Rekindling Friendships

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the rekindling of past friendships. The trio discusses the complexities of reconnecting after periods of drift, highlighting the importance of mutual growth and self-awareness.

Alessandra [35:06]: "We're in a different place... with more self-awareness, equal efforts, a new perspective."

Becky emphasizes that successful reconciliation often stems from both parties being in a healthier, more stable place in their lives.

Becky [34:18]: "We are not starting over new. We're not starting over now. We're not starting over."

5. Emotional Growth and the Role of Therapy

The conversation delves into the significance of emotional maturity and the role of therapy in personal development. Alessandra and Becky openly discuss their therapeutic journeys, underscoring how therapy has been instrumental in understanding and improving their relationships.

Becky [06:45]: "I think it's important for me to know that... [therapy] helps me relax."

Alessandra [05:10]: "I am somebody who... I love a lot and really hard. But I do have a threshold."

Kale adds that therapy has provided her with tools to navigate complex emotions, fostering healthier interactions with friends and family.

Kale [10:55]: "The friends that I do have that are like my family, I really like, cherish and nourish those relationships."

6. Quality vs. Quantity in Friendships

A recurring theme throughout the episode is the emphasis on quality over quantity in friendships. Becky articulates her philosophy, advocating for a smaller circle of dependable friends over a sprawling network of acquaintances.

Becky [06:11]: "I believe in quality over quantity. Now that I'm older, I just wish..."

Alessandra concurs, reflecting on her own experiences of fostering meaningful connections while letting go of relationships that no longer serve her well-being.

Alessandra [35:07]: "We're just not aligned. Yeah... it doesn't make you a bad person, and it doesn't make me a bad person. We're just not aligned."

7. Navigating Toxic Relationships and Personal Boundaries

The hosts candidly discuss the impact of toxic relationships on their friendships and personal growth. Kale shares her struggles with past friendships that were marred by toxicity, highlighting the importance of setting boundaries to protect one's mental health.

Kale [37:39]: "The environment around you was just toxic all the time... I'm happy that we kind of had that falling out."

Becky echoes these sentiments, advocating for discernment in choosing friends who genuinely contribute to one's life without ulterior motives.

Becky [39:37]: "Friendship isn't about what you can get from the other person. It's about what you guys can give to each other."

8. Concluding Insights and Moving Forward

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the lessons learned about sustaining friendships amidst life's inevitable changes. They emphasize the importance of self-awareness, mutual support, and the courage to let go of relationships that hinder personal growth.

Kale [73:00]: "We're all learning a lot."

Becky [71:05]: "We all have more work to do."

The trio leaves listeners with a hopeful message that, despite challenges, maintaining authentic and supportive friendships is achievable through intentional effort and emotional resilience.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Kale [03:24]: "It's like an unspoken rule of life that you go through this weird transition in your mid to late 20s..."

• Becky [06:11]: "I believe in quality over quantity."

• Alessandra [35:06]: "We're in a different place... with more self-awareness, equal efforts, a new perspective."

• Becky [06:45]: "I think it's important for me to know that... [therapy] helps me relax."

• Kale [37:39]: "The environment around you was just toxic all the time... I'm happy that we kind of had that falling out."

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Conclusion

In "Seasons of Friendships," Karma & Chaos offers a heartfelt exploration of how friendships evolve amidst life's milestones. Through honest dialogue and personal anecdotes, Kail, Becky, and Alessandra provide listeners with relatable insights and practical advice on nurturing enduring and meaningful connections. Whether grappling with the complexities of raising a family, navigating the aftermath of IVF, or striving for emotional maturity, this episode serves as a guiding compass for maintaining harmony and understanding in one's social circles.

Transcript

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[Becky]

If you could hear love, what would it sound like?

[Kale]

Son, can we talk about your drinking?

[Becky]

Yeah, Dad, I think we should.

[Alessandra]

Helping those closest to you think about their excessive drinking. Maybe that's what love sounds like.

[Kale]

[e-mail] an OHA initiative. Welcome to Karma and Chaos.

[Alessandra]

We have Alessandra. She is the host of five and Kind of Thriving.

[Becky]

I am.

[Alessandra]

She's the host of Vibing and Kind of Thriving. And also on the killer team. Like, we're just a big, happy family. And so today's the first day that Becky actually met Alessandra in person.

[Kale]

Wrong.

[Alessandra]

Right? Actually, you're correct.

[Becky]

The world is really small. Like, Becky and I have a connection because I'm friends with somebody that she went to college with that's from my hometown.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Becky]

And then so many people like you and I, I feel like we're going to cross paths at some point. Like, you went to school with all my cousins. Like, it was just weird.

[Alessandra]

But she was. I met her because of V. Yeah. And I had no idea. But so when she told me where her cousins live, I was like, oh, my God. And then when she walked in, I'm thinking that Becky and Alessandra haven't met. And I met her at Bea's wedding, said something about, oh, we meet again. And I was like, wait, what? So confused. But I forgot that we went to the. We went to their wedding.

[Kale]

I was your date.

[Alessandra]

You were my wedding. Did I have a real relationship at that time? Maybe, maybe not.

[Kale]

Define real relationship.

[Becky]

Okay, got it. Maybe you were in the relationship.

[Alessandra]

That was a wild ride.

[Kale]

Funny enough, Kale came here and she was like, oh, yeah, Alessandra, right?

[Becky]

That's how you say Alessandra.

[Kale]

What? Like is in Jersey, too. I'm like, why didn't you just invite her?

[Alessandra]

I also wasn't thinking, because I had said that to Alessandra. I said, I don't know why I didn't think to text you last night. Like, I just wasn't. I also thought it was a great idea. To drive at 10pm and almost fall asleep on the wheel. At the wheel.

[Kale]

Yeah. Kale pulled over and got a hotel room in the middle of the night.

[Alessandra]

Just like, it would not be good if I never made it to my destination.

[Becky]

Yeah, that would not be.

[Alessandra]

So I was like, it's better to be safe than sorry. Fell asleep for six hours.

[Becky]

Well, you know, we'd all be off payroll. So that's the only then.

[Alessandra]

So, yeah, you're like, can I have my $20 for being here, everyone? Nobody gets paid. Boss is gone.

[Kale]

What are we going to do now?

[Alessandra]

Split her funds? Anyway, so we last episode we talked about ivf. IVF in all of this. Have your friendships changed over the course of this?

[Kale]

Yeah. Oh, over the course of IVF or life?

[Alessandra]

Both.

[Kale]

I wouldn't say that friendships have changed over the course of ivf, because I feel like my friendships have changed significantly over the course of my life. That I'm. I've like, reached my point to my friends.

[Alessandra]

What does that mean?

[Kale]

Like, it's like an unspoken rule of life that you go through this weird transition in your mid to late 20s, right? You start to lose friends you thought you would be friends with for the rest of your life. That's when everything kind of starts changing. And it's sometimes for a reason, but from. For a lot of cases, it's for no other reason than just growth. Like, people are growing in completely different ways. And so that transition of losing friends is just like a weird, weird time of life to go through. So I already went through that. I'm 34. So the people in my life are my ride or dies. Right? Like, they're here, they've gone, gone through the ups and downs of life. I mean, loss, everything. So my homies are my homies now.

[Alessandra]

I don't have that experience. I don't have that same experience.

[Becky]

So what do you mean by that?

[Alessandra]

I don't. Like, Becky has friends that have been around since, what, like high school, college. And then obviously you have your newer friends because as you said, life goes on. You grow, you develop new relationships depending on what phase you are in your life. Right. Like in the past, I've talked about developing friendships through being a mom and my kids going to sports. Like, naturally you gain friendships that way. Right. But I don't necessarily think that I have ride or dies or like life lifers. You know what I mean? Do you feel like you have them?

[Becky]

Yeah. So I went through a transition when I was like 22, 23. I went through, like a really bad Breakup. And so the friends that I made then are like my family. So I was a big partier. Definitely retired now. And so at the time, in my early 20s, I thought I had a lot of friends. Realize now as an adult, they were more acquaintances. We would see each other from Thursday to Monday, so you couldn't tell me shit. I thought that was my family. But as you get older and you become more evolved and more firm in who you are, you really see who stays around. So I do have those, like, solid core friends. One of them I've known since high school. But the rest I met in my early 20s. And I. I am somebody who, like, I love a lot and really hard. But I do have a threshold. My threshold might be a little higher than most, but when I feel like my relationship has run its course or we've grown our separate ways, I'm really good at disconnecting. I maybe to a fault, like, I can. I can. We could be best friends, like, living together, and I could literally never talk to you again.

[Alessandra]

See, that's how I am.

[Becky]

Yeah, I'm the same way. The friends that I do have that are like my family, I really like, cherish and nourish those relationships. And as you got older and you get more busy and you have, like, more serious relationships or you're taking on career stuff, the friends that are low maintenance, I think are the ones that stick around. And by low maintenance, I mean they're not getting mad if you can't answer the phone. They're not getting mad if you can't make every single hangout. They just know at the end of the day, like, if I need you, I can call you. Those are the people I have around me. And they're small. It's limited. But I do believe in quality over quantity. Now that I'm older, I just wish.

[Alessandra]

That all the things that we talk about or we heard our parents or people when we were younger talk about. Oh, things like that, like holding on to the quality versus the quantity. Why don't we ever actually get it until it's years down the line?

[Kale]

I don't know. Like, is it. I feel like this is the time we're supposed to get it right. Like, I feel like we've matured into so many different people by the time you hit 30. Not that there isn't still continued growth that's going to happen, but I feel like there's just so much growth that happens in your 20s, into your early 30s, that now is the time you should be realizing who your People are. Because you're in your 20s, you're moving, you're, you know, changing careers, changing locations, most people. But I don't know, I feel like it's also different. Different scenarios for people that have kids. Right. I hold. I hold, like, a little bit of guilt from. I have a lot of really great friends I had in my 20s, but they got married and had kids, and so our friendships kind of drifted apart. Not because I don't care or love for them people, but we just lived completely different lives for a really long time. And so my friends now, and they're all getting married now and starting families now, so our lives kind of meshed to the same footsteps.

[Alessandra]

You know, I saw this friend in Dallas a couple months ago, and she was like, oh, I'll have you to myself at some point, and was sort of making comments that I was just like, you don't know me anymore. You know what I mean? Like, you don't. Like, that's not a thing. Like, I literally have seven children, and I have a lot of relationships that I have to maintain on a literal, daily basis. I think that it's. And not to say that I'm anywhere more important or different than, you know, everyone, but I do think that I do. I have unique circumstances. And so the relationships that I have to maintain on a regular basis, I think would. Is already in within my own family. I mean, there's nine of us, so I have to maintain eight relationships on a regular day. And so then you add in work relationships and podcasting and things like that. And so I think it did kind of piss me off when she was, like, saying certain things or like, oh, I'll come see. And it's just like, it doesn't work that way. And so can't have the same friendships that I maybe did before. Maybe my friendships moved to acquaintances, but that's okay. Sucks. It's. It's okay.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

But it still hurts.

[Kale]

Oh, for sure.

[Becky]

I think it's really, like, interesting. You're saying your friends are now getting married and having kids, and we both live in Jersey, so I feel like the dynamic here is people are getting, like, married and having kids, let's say, quote unquote, later in life. I don't think it's later. I think it's been just right on time. But I do think that's more common here. And I have a friend, one of my best friends, is married and has two kids back to back. He's in the thick of motherhood right now with Irish twin Toddlers and then I have two friends who are living, like, the party single life. And then I'm at home with, like, Billy and my dog all the time. So we all live very different lives, but at the core of who we are, we value the same things. And I think that's what's most important. And I think by the time I'm 33, by the time you get to this age, you, not you, are who you are. Because I really believe. I love humans so much, and I believe in our ability to change. I believe in our ability to grow. And I really do believe that people can better themselves. It's just really fucking hard. It's painful. It has to be intentional, and you have to be ready to take on those things. And I think when you become more firm in who you are, those things that are important, like loyalty, generosity, people being just genuine and transparent with me are so important to me. And the people who are in my life still also value those things. And I really do believe everybody has a season. I wouldn't be where I am if I didn't have all the people I had in my life. So I genuinely am someone who lives without regrets. I don't regret any of my romantic relationships, even though they were rough, or my friendships, because they got me here. And I think that that's how you move on. I think a lot of people say stuck, and then they turn around and they're 50 and they're 60, and they're like, fuck, I wasted my whole life, like, regretting or resenting or thinking that I was gonna grow or change without putting in the work. And I think that's how a lot of friendships end, unfortunately.

[Alessandra]

I would agree with that. I think at the point, everyone I know is in therapy, I feel. And I. The ones that are not in therapy, I'm like, there's a reason why you're gonna be where you are. But I have to say, though, with that being said, and you were just talking about how, like, you and Billy are at home, and Becky was telling me earlier about how, like, she doesn't go out as much as she used to or be, you know, in a different city every weekend. I'm just at a place where I'm good with the relationships that I have on a daily basis. And I. I really don't seek out anything on the weekends if it's not for, like, kids, sports and stuff. I. The ones that I'm gonna pour myself into are the ones I'm gonna pour myself into, and that's all I have to give. Like, I don't have anything else to give. And so I. There's not necessarily room for new relationships at this point in my life. I think maybe as my kids get older and maybe, you know, the babies don't take up so much of my time, or maybe they don't have sports on the weekends or something, I'll have more, like, a bigger capacity for it, but I just don't have that. And I think that, too, is, like, will very much affect friendships. Like, I'll be curious to see, because you and your friendships are all sort of doing the same things at the same time. Will they all play sports together? Will they, like, will you guys be doing birthday parties together? You know what I mean? Or, you know, how does that go?

[Kale]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Alessandra]

So interesting.

[Kale]

Yeah, I. I do have. I, like, I still have friends that are. That have kids.

[Alessandra]

Yeah.

[Kale]

And I. The thing that I value most about those friends that I don't talk to or that I don't see, you know, that often is that, you know, if they walked in the door right now and sat down, it would be like, no time has passed. And so there I have my closest friends that I see and do active things with, but then I also had to have a subset of friends that I love just as much, but I just don't see them because our lives don't match up. Right. Like, some of them live far away. Some of them have kids, and their life is crazy. And, like, I don't understand that life yet. So there's just different groups of people. But going through, like you said, friendship, like, breakups and stuff like that is just something that no one prepares you for. Right.

[Alessandra]

I think a friendship breakup is worse than a breakup with a significant other. I. I agree, because you confide in certain friends, depending on the level of friendship, how surface level, or how deep it is, you confide in that friend about your relationship. Right. So they're very different. And I think that sometimes a breakup can be worse than a relationship.

[Chandler]

This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. A lot of the topics that we talk about would be great examples for when somebody would benefit from therapy. And I would say that it's probably best to start therapy before you even need therapy.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

I just recently started therapy again during our IVF journey, and I wanted to make sure that I started therapy before the crazy horns kicked in. I wanted someone to know me before for that. And so it was the best decision that I made because now, as things come up, she's able to know me as a baseline and I can't advocate for therapy more.

[Chandler]

I actually love that, and that's actually.

[Alessandra]

A really good point.

[Chandler]

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[Kristen]

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[Chandler]

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[Kale]

I agree for the most part our radar fallout for me my like breakups with my partners as Females are really hard.

[Alessandra]

I. Okay, so. And I did just say the last episode. I was talking about one of the episodes I said that. And maybe. Wait, let me ask Alessandra, because I think when a woman and a man. When a man and a woman are in a relationship and call each other their best friends, I don't think that it's the same as a lesbian. Like, two girls that are, like, in a relationship and call each other their best friend. It's not the same thing.

[Becky]

Absolutely not. There's so much study that says that women have more intense, more, like, stronger connections in their relationships, in their friendships than men. So, like, a great way to discern this is, like, we have relationships like sisters, and men have relationships like distant cousins. So, for example, Billy has friends that he went to college with, and they'll talk, like, once or twice a month if that. And they'll catch up, and it's as if nothing passed. And I'll ask. I'll ask, like, hey, what's going on with this person? Or that he's a. I don't know. Or ask him for details. He's like, I don't know. Could never be me. Like, I know, like, what bowel movements you're. You had today. Like, what ailments you have. Like, what's going on in my, like, relationships with women. And I just think statistically, like, that's why women live longer and why we're happier because we have more connection and more intense relationships. So I could see how ending a relationship with a woman is really difficult. And there's way more. I just think you get deeper there. And I love Billy. I love my man, you know, and we have a very great relationship. I just think it's different.

[Alessandra]

And that's what I said. I was like, I love Elijah to death, right? Like, I would choose him in another lifetime, but I would not necessarily call him my best friend.

[Becky]

I don't. I have an unpopular opinion. But I don't think your partner should be, because I think we get really wrapped up in.

[Kale]

Leah is my best friend.

[Alessandra]

Okay?

[Becky]

But I also have other best friends. That's what I mean. That's what I mean. So, I mean, like, your.

[Kale]

She's not my only friend, right?

[Becky]

And your partner is your partner. Like, I call Billy my partner. I have since, like, how. Because he's my partner in life. And so, of course, the foundation of that part of it is my friendship with him. So we have a better friendship than, I would say, other people in my life. And I do, because we're getting married. But I do think it's really important to have those distinguishing titles between people because I think a lot of people get really lost. Lost in their relationships.

[Kale]

Yeah, I think they use it too freeless, like so, like freely that it doesn't, it doesn't hold the weight that it should as well.

[Alessandra]

When you say that you don't think that your partner should be your best friend, why do you say that? Like, can you elaborate on that? Because I feel the same way. I just didn't know how to put it in words.

[Becky]

I have abandonment issues, so it probably goes there. But I really do think I. I think that goes into. I think, I guess it's dangerous to put everything on one person. So if you make someone your whole life, I think you end up losing a little bit of yourself and there's more to lose if something happens. So that's probably why I feel that way.

[Alessandra]

I also just don't think the compatibleness, I don't know if that's a word, companionship, the. It's just not the same as. And I do think it is a little bit different for same sex couple for women. I can't say the same for men because again, I don't. They might be close, but I don't know, it just feels very different to me. And I don't know, like I. There's never been a male person in my life that I may be very close with them, I may consider them a best friend, but they're never going to be what my female. Their female counterparts are to me.

[Kale]

Yeah, I think I just live a different life than that. Because you've met Ryan, right? I fucking love him.

[Alessandra]

Spencer.

[Kale]

Spencer and Luke and like my Carson, Tommy, I have guy friends that have more emotional maturity than half the girls I know. And so I've just struck gold in friendships. Right. So like I love deeply my friends, my guy friends, my girlfriends and they. It's reciprocated. Right.

[Alessandra]

But is it because it's you? It could be because I also think that I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying and I love Ryan and I've met Spencer and I feel like I really liked him when I knew him too. But I don't know them the same way you do. If they were to have another female best friend, would it be the same sort of connection that you have with them? Do you know what I mean? I think that it's very unique to you as a person. Same for Alessandra. Like Alessandra and Kristen give me the same Vibes as people. Like, I just feel like I love.

[Kale]

That, yeah, we might hang out. I think I love that, yeah, we.

[Alessandra]

Might hang out after this. I just, I don't know. I like how I feel about you guys and how, you know, Kristen especially, I've known her for 12 years. It's just never going to be what me and Elijah like. It's just different.

[Kale]

Yeah. But I think that also like boils down to the maturity level of the man too.

[Becky]

Right.

[Kale]

The emotional awareness, their willingness to be vulnerable with you, their willingness to love freely. Right. How many times have you seen Elijah cry? How many times have you seen him be a vulnerable person and not at fault to him? Right, Right. He can be a great person. That's just. Unfortunately what society has constructed for men is like this emotionless behavior. That's what they're supposed to do. So there's a lot of walls that need to be broken down from, at least from a male perspective. That's why it's. We've talked about this before, but that's why it's so easy for women to fall in love with their best friends. Right.

[Alessandra]

Do you know that people that. That's happened to. What's the.

[Kale]

Not in a sexual way.

[Alessandra]

Oh, what's the tea?

[Becky]

She's like, let us know who did it.

[Alessandra]

I want to know.

[Kale]

But that's what, you know, it's. It's so we love our best friends. Right? Right.

[Alessandra]

Like sisters, like Alessandra was saying.

[Kale]

Yeah. And so it's so easy for us to continuously fall in love with someone close to us that I feel like that's why you're. The way you see a male relationship and a female relationship is because most of the people you full heartily been in love with is females and not in a sexual way, in a friendship and loving and caring way.

[Becky]

I'm really curious. I'm like, I'm thinking about it as you're saying it and I wonder if men are able to be more vulnerable with you and open up in a way with you because they know they're not trying to attract you in any way. Because a lot of times men don't want to put out such an emotional response or be vulnerable because society has told them that that's not masculine, it's not sexy. They're only allowed to be angry and horny if they don't. If they don't, there's nothing here. They're not going to attract you at all. They're allowed to bring those walls down and be more.

[Kale]

I think that's an amazing point. Yeah. And honestly, after the show in Philly, Ryan and I had a conversation, or maybe it was after the wedding. I don't know. Me and Ryan have emotional conversations all the time. But he was speaking to my friendship. And what I bring to him and Luke and Spencer is that I open up. I open up their world to something more than they would have without it.

[Alessandra]

So that's what she's saying.

[Kale]

And so with you saying that, that's like a automatic. Not that I'm not like, attractive or, you know.

[Dr. Horton]

Of course.

[Alessandra]

No, but I think if we. If I was to try to have a relation, a friendship with them, it would never be the same because I'm not for sure they would find me attractive. That's not what I'm saying. But I think that it's like just. What is it called? Not instinct, but Mother Nature. Right?

[Becky]

Yeah. It's like the animal, like, instinct. I think it's just how it is. Yeah.

[Kale]

I've never thought about it like that.

[Alessandra]

Have you ever had a falling out with any of your male friends?

[Kale]

Yes. And so that's. That's also what I want. I was just thinking about. About that was I set myself up for a lot more heartbreak because I put myself in situations of loving men. And I. And I mean that like, not in a sexual way, obviously, not in a relationship way. It's. They forget sometimes that I'm a female and that I have a lot of big emotions. Right. So when I fight with my guy friends, it's very minor to them, and to me, it's very big because my feelings are hurt or whatever situation. And so I end up getting hurt a lot from my guy friends. Not. Not my circle now, but in past history, like, I've had a lot of falling outs with Dan. Right. I had a huge falling out with Dan and that took me six years to get over. That was literally the longest process of. He was my best friend all through high school. We had a small falling out and he just didn't care because he's a man. And then we just went our separate ways and I was just hurt. Like, I was. I couldn't go anywhere that he was. I couldn't. And I was. I broke relationships with other people because, like, I just couldn't be around him. But we. We reconciled over the past couple years. Our friendship isn't what it was. I don't even know if our friendship would have stayed the same even if that didn't happen. But that was. That was some of the worst Heartbreak I've ever. I've ever gone through in my life.

[Alessandra]

When you say you reconcile, do you mean, like, you put, like, it's water under the bridge, but it will never be the same?

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

Or do you. How do you. Okay.

[Kale]

Yeah. We're different people. Right? We had a breakup seven years ago.

[Alessandra]

And before you and I fell out.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

Yeah.

[Kale]

We. It was the same year me and Leah started dating.

[Alessandra]

Do you. Have you had a male best friend before?

[Becky]

Yeah, I've had several. I have one, like, as you're thinking about it, like, I have a guy that. I would say he is more emotional vulnerable with me than, like, a lot of women in his life. And it's because there's. We looked at each other. We're like, you're like my brother. Like, I like disgusting. And because there's, like, not that level of him trying to attract me and vice versa, we can be more vulnerable with each other. And I had. You know, what's interesting is I had a lot of male friends in college, but they were trying to get closer to my girlfriends, so that kind of fucked me up. So it kind of kept me away from men a lot. But like I said, I love humans. Like, I just love humans in general. I just think I. I'm a girls girl, so I just get along with, like, women more, I guess. So. I've just been more attracted to that and my friendships.

[Alessandra]

I would say I had probably had one really good male friend in my life, but when I think back to backstory and I look really deeply at the whole spectrum, I'm like, it wasn't really a friendship, and it was very much surface level. I can't say that I've had, like, a best male friend friend.

[Becky]

There's. There's things too. Like, I. When I was. I was saying that I had a really big group of friends when I was partying, so a lot of that included men. And there's been, like, obviously, there's benefits to that, too. Like, our friendships were intimate and close in a different way than it was with my girlfriends at the time, because I felt protected by them. I felt nurtured by them in a way that I couldn't get from women. Because if I was in a vulnerable position and I was drunk or something, they were always there, like brothers, to make sure that I was good. And it's different than what a woman can offer because, unfortunately, we're prey and men are predators at times, especially in, like, when you're vulnerable and you're drinking and they don't take other women as seriously as they do men. So I really value that and I'm really grateful to have had them during that time too. And I just think, I wish I talk about it a lot. Like men's mental health and stuff is really important to me. I think they get like a very bad rap and I think they're very mistaken, misunderstood. And I think sometimes people think I'm like a misandrust and I hate men. But the opposite is true. I just think I love. I've had a problem in the past of loving people's potential because I truly see the potential in everybody and I see that they have it and more. So they deserve it. They deserve it. Like we deserve to switch the narrative that society has given to men because we live in a misogynistic society. But they're not benefiting anymore and neither are we. Nobody is. We need to restructure that. We need to restructure how men see themselves and how we see men too. And it starts at home. I think millennials do a great job, Gen Z and stuff while they're raising young men. I think we do a great job of letting them know. Like, I have a brother and he was always told, like, don't fucking cry. That's a girl's thing. Like, you don't do that. We were raised very differently and I think parents are doing a better job of not doing that now for sure.

[Chandler]

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[Kristen]

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[Alessandra]

I tried to handle my kids, my own sons, you know, differently because I grew up, you know, knowing my grandfather. I don't know how much I've really talked about him on the podcast, but he was a huge influence in my life. And it was very like, you keep a poker face at all times. Like, very much. How Elijah is now is like, you don't even laugh, don't laugh, don't cry, don't show anything. It's like you are a provider through and through, and that's it. But my son's like, you know, just explaining to them that they're. They're allowed to have these emotions and they're allowed to express these emotions if it's in, like, a healthy and safe way, but also, you know, trying to get them into therapy and things like that. You know, three of my, three of my sons are in therapy, and it's important for them to know that that is okay. And I think we're moving sort of in the right direction. I do feel conflicted sometimes about, like, the misogyny and, like, feminist thing because sometimes I'm, sometimes I'm like, just straight girls girl, you know, like feminist all the way. More power to the women. But then other times I'm like, okay, but I am raising sons, so I need to make a better, like a conscience, a conscious effort to be a part of the change and moving forward rather than keeping things where we're at, if that makes sense.

[Becky]

I'm of the opinion that the world will be a better place if we continue to uplift women. I think we have so much more to offer. We statistically now are more college educated. We're in more dominant and power roles in, like, corporations and things like that. And we're seeing the benefits, benefit of that. That's also why women in our age are not getting married as much, because we don't need men the same way that we used to. And I did quote in quotations, quote unquote, that we don't need men, because, I mean, until the 70s, a woman couldn't even get her own bank account. So our moms, our grandparents, our great grandparents, they needed men. We saw all these relationships where they stayed because they had to. We don't have to anymore. So we do have a lower rate of divorce because we're making more conscious choices about who we're marrying and if we even want to get married. I say all the time. At 33 years old, if Billy and I hadn't met when I was 25, I think I'd be getting a sperm donor, moving in with one of my girlfriends, and raising our kids together and just doing it that way, because I just think you can. I think we have way more options now.

[Kale]

Basically, what I'm doing, I love it.

[Becky]

Yeah, I fucking love that. I just think, like, there's just so much more that we can do. But I do think too. So we are. Women are a marginalized group. And I say that in the sense of, like, in history and society, we were never seen as one full person. And so we have to do a lot of work to fix that. So I don't see anything wrong with being like a girl's girl and like uplifting women. I make a lot of jokes of like, why are fucking. Why is a man here? Why would a man be here?

[Alessandra]

And that's what I mean, and it's.

[Becky]

A joke, but it's more so because, like, I. We work predominantly with women, like, and I fucking love that. That is so rare. Podcasting is a woman dominated industry and I love it. And I just think I'm biased, but I think we're more. I think we're like more level headed in certain ways. And again, that's like society. I know this isn't my show, but I do have a couple questions for you guys and I don't know. Yeah, already touched on this in the first two episodes.

[Alessandra]

Sure, ask us.

[Becky]

But I love to know, like, from each of you, what are the characteristics that you think that you guys are bringing to the table in your friendship now that is more developed and that was lacking before and led to your follow up. But now that you think you see these new characteristics in each other, how you can make this relationship work.

[Alessandra]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

I said, I briefly touched on the first episode that I was not putting in the same efforts that Becky was when we were friends before. It was sort of like, you know, you come to me, I'm not going to come to you. I'll make time for you, so long as you're putting in the effort, if that makes sense. And so. And I. And I think the same can be said not just for my friendship with Becky, but across the board. Right. Like, it was a regular pattern. And I think in my own head then I was chalking it up to, like, this is who I am. And I know that my grandparents, my uncle, you know, that I'm. That I still have a relationship with. They're the same way. So, like, sort of. What's the word? Retract. No. Remove.

[Kale]

Redacted.

[Alessandra]

Redact. They're like recluse. Like, they will socialize very. But you have to go to them in order for them to kind of mingle for a minute, and then they're going to kind of retract and just like, be sort of out of sight, out of mind. That sort of like. And not even like a conscious decision. But I also felt like I always had so much going on, but I think that both can be true. Like, I can be that way, but I also still have to pour into the people that are pouring into me. And so I'm talking, like, Kristen and Becky and, you know, whoever else at the time, I think. And the ones that are not meant to be will fall off and stay off.

[Becky]

Right.

[Alessandra]

Like, there are certain people that I know, no matter what, I would never reconcile with them in any way, shape or form. But. But I think that the way that we fell out too, was like, we were not happy people as individuals. So take the friendship out of it. You weren't in a good place as an individual, and I was not in a good place as an individual. And so now I think we're coming into this friendship again, this rekindling with more self awareness, equal efforts, sort of a new perspective on just everything because, you know, you're in a different place. I'm in a different place. I'm in a new relationship. You're in a relationship. You're, you know, in a healthy place.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

With your relationship. And I think all of that is sort of like the ingredients for a more successful friendship. Would you have anything to add to that?

[Kale]

Yeah, I think that we. It was. We were just set up for failure. And we've talked about this a bunch of times. We were set up for failure. I think Kale is surrounding herself with better people in general. And I was at a vulnerable place in time when we were friends that I just. I just was being attracted in so many different ways to people around her. And I was in toxic relationships when we were friends. So toxic was all I knew at the time. And when Leah and I started dating, it took a couple years for me to outgrow and out learn those toxic behaviors. And so when I was friends with her, I was just surrounded by toxic all the time. And so I had to learn how to not allow myself to go back into that. And, you know, I have zero toxic relationships now. I'm not surrounded by any kind of toxicness. And so I think that that puts me automatically just in a. In a better position as a better person to be even. Even a better friend. Right. I always tried to be a good friend, but. But, you know, I succumbed to the environment that, like, surrounded you multiple times.

[Alessandra]

And so you're not saying that I was the toxic one, so.

[Kale]

No, no, no.

[Alessandra]

Okay. I just want to clarify that because.

[Kale]

No, no, no. Your life, like, the filming, the constant nagging of. Bring up this fight, talk about this fight, talk shit about this person, not you. Like, you know, the producers saying it. That's a lot. That's heavy for anyone. And so. And then you had people coming in and out of your life that were coming in and out to get on tv, to get a following, to get whatever they could from you. So the whole environment around you was just toxic all the time. And not all the time. Right. Like, but the people were just like leeches in and out. And so you surround yourself with leeches, you become a leech, and it's. That's just not who I ever wanted to be. And honestly, I'm happy that we kind of had that falling out, because I don't even know who I'd be as a person if I continued kind of in that. Not because of you, but just the environment itself.

[Alessandra]

I feel like that's fair.

[Becky]

Yeah, yeah. Like, bugs are attracted to light, so if you have something to offer, they're very common. And I think that you've unfortunately been put in positions with friendships, like, I'm speaking to Kel, that people had something to gain from it, and you are someone just even experiencing it, like, working with you for the last four years, like, if you have something to give, you're going to give it, and it stinks, because as you get older, you have to use your discernment of who's worthy of that. And I think people working up and Showing their loyalty and being there for you. Because a friendship isn't about what you can get from the other person. It's about what you guys can give to each other. And I think that that's a lesson we all have to learn. I just think you had to learn it like there was more bugs attracted to you.

[Alessandra]

To be fair though, and I told Becky this earlier, is that I do think that I ignore red flags a lot because I want to give people the benefit of the doubt. But also, for whatever reason, I do attract. Like, this is really, I, I don't mean it the way it's going to come out, but like low quality people.

[Becky]

People that are low vibrational.

[Alessandra]

Yeah. That just seek out the wrong things. And so not to say I had no hand in it because I obviously have had my hand in, you know, all the problems that I've had. But I think it's, it's really hard for me when I see every single fallout that hits the Internet is always looked at as my fault. And it's like, where is the accountability for the other person? Like, it's not because I'm the worst person on the planet. It's really not. Because I would literally give the shirt, I mean, you guys know I would give the shirt off my back. I truly, it's not about that. And so I think that all these years I've definitely needed to have more self awareness for my own actions. But I think the overall is like, it takes two to have a falling out. But I also, I let these people in to begin with. And so that's part of, part of the problem.

[Becky]

Do you think that that like blocks, like now that you are, let's say, hyper aware of that people did that to you in the past. Do you think that like blocks you from letting people in now?

[Alessandra]

Yeah, I don't. I have no interest to make any new friendships because I do compare myself to one person a lot, specifically from being on Teen mom. And I noticed that she has a lot of the same exact friends that she's always had. And I'm like, well, why can't I have that? Why haven't I that. Well, that was partially my fault. And now I don't want to make new friends. Like, it's just if I make them, it's more so for my kids, not necessarily for me. And I'm okay with that. Like, I'm good with my circle of people and I just want to keep my circle where it is. Like, I don't, I don't want new friends I'll take this one back, but I don't want. I don't want new friends.

[Becky]

We'll take returns. Yeah, we're not starting over now. We're not starting over new. I get that it's exhausting. I was just curious because I feel like, you know, we changed so much. I've been a million different people in the last few years.

[Kale]

Yeah, I say that all the time.

[Alessandra]

I also think trauma as children will stunt your maturity and your growth process, because what I feel like I've learned very late. Like you, for example. You guys could say you've learned something. Five, in your early 20s, mid-20s, even late 20s. I'm just learning that now. And I think that part. Part of that is like me being emotionally stunted and like, having.

[Kale]

Oh, for sure.

[Alessandra]

Do you know what I mean? I should have got what you guys learned five years ago. I'm just getting it today.

[Becky]

Yeah, I feel that way, too. I feel that way about, like, a lot of my friendships, even just, like, in where we are in our lives. Like, I've always felt behind. And I think you and I had very different upbringings, but similar in a way of. When you're. When your energy has to go into you for yourself speaking, you were surviving, you were trying to figure it out. You were a baby when you were having a baby. So what time and energy could you have put into becoming emotionally mature and learning these things? So when your focus is survival, there is no time to learn those things. Whereas if you are in a safe environment, if you're already feeling protected and you're feeling good, then you can grow and you can learn those things. Like, I. There's a massive difference between my friends who were raised with parents who lived in the same household forever. They still are living there. And me, there's just so many different levels to what that is. And I really do think that that's where that comes from. You were surviving, you didn't have time to think about those things.

[Alessandra]

But the same could be said for you because you're the eldest daughter, and I feel like there's a lot surrounding that. And then you're the youngest of five, but your parents were always together. So I'm curious, always together. Do you feel like you had a traumatic childhood?

[Kale]

A little bit.

[Alessandra]

Really?

[Kale]

Yeah. But I. I don't think that my childhood affects. I think, like, there's characteristics of my parents that affect me now that I have to outgrow. But I think that probably the biggest thing that I had to, like, unlearn, unlearn, was my from a relationship perspective, right. Like you guys probably had your first boyfriends and love in high school and I didn't have my first real relationship until I was 19 because that's when I figured out I liked girls. And so I like all those mistakes made prior to that weren't mistakes made with a full heart given to it.

[Chandler]

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[Kristen]

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[Chandler]

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[Kale]

That's why like they people talk about gay people having this second round of maturity because they don't live their their authentic self until later in life. And so it just becomes like this chaotic part of life.

[Alessandra]

Wait, I didn't know that.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

Did you know that?

[Becky]

No. But that makes a lot of sense and it could be said for you too or like people.

[Kale]

For anyone.

[Becky]

Anyone that doesn't authentically.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

What? I just never. So. So for people that come out A lot earlier in life is.

[Kale]

Is easy.

[Alessandra]

Mostly. Okay.

[Becky]

It's easy.

[Kale]

Cuz that's why when Piper came. My niece is 14 and she came out when she was 10. It was so emotional for me because, like, she gets to live authentically herself her entire life, regardless if she decides later in life that she's straight or whatever that sexuality looks like. Doesn't matter. She got to live her entire life authentically, thinking that she could be whoever she wanted. Right? So. And that's what's beautiful about this generation is they get to live that more frequently. Not everyone, right? We still have the, you know, crisis of 45% of like homeless. Homeless youth is queer and all of those types of issues. But people now are getting to live their authentic life so much sooner. It's just like a beautiful thing to be able to see.

[Alessandra]

That's so interesting.

[Becky]

I got chills when you were talking about that. Yeah, I think it's awesome. I think I was like 20 and I found out, like, figured out I was bi. But I think it's very different because I also like men. So I was very confused. Like, and we didn't have, like. It's not that that wasn't an option. It just wasn't as openly talked about. You either had to be straight or you were gay. There was no in between. And so for sure now, like, as an adult, I look back and I'm like, girl, you were fighting with those girls because you wanted to kiss them, not because you were jealous of them or anything. And you go back and you, like, think about those things. And I just, I'm so happy for the kids. Like, now they get to grow up so much more. Yeah. Accepted. I really do think acceptance goes.

[Kale]

I mean, how can you not love girls? You know?

[Becky]

Like, it's just so beautiful. No offense, but men are like potatoes.

[Alessandra]

They're such potatoes.

[Becky]

No offense, Chandler, but like, I mean, I think you can agree that women are way more beautiful than men.

[Alessandra]

We love Chandler so much. I just like making fun of you for fun.

[Kale]

But. But men like Chandler recognize that conversations around men, like, he. He doesn't take offense to it. And I'm sorry to be speaking for you, but. Because, you know, it's not about.

[Becky]

I saw him like, nodding his head when we were saying a lot. Yeah.

[Alessandra]

Laughing with him, not at him.

[Becky]

Yeah, no, Billy's the same way. I'll say. Men are trash. He's like, yeah, the. They are like, you know what I mean? Like, he agrees.

[Kale]

All issues stem from men. It doesn't. Doesn't mean all men cause issues.

[Becky]

Exactly.

[Alessandra]

Wow. Wait, can you say that one more time clearly for the mic?

[Kale]

All issues stem from men. It's not that. All men cause issues.

[Alessandra]

Right, that's true. All issues stem from men. That's a good point. Because, honestly, my whole life could have been eliminated.

[Becky]

Men build society.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Becky]

Like, we live in a misogynistic society. They. They made the rules, you know?

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

Imagine being a man and, like, procreating and then dipping. No, like, you're just, like, out here. Yeah.

[Becky]

Not Roadkill Ray.

[Alessandra]

Roadkill Ray is out here hitting deer and.

[Kale]

Is that where your middle name comes from?

[Alessandra]

Yeah, me and my sister.

[Kale]

I didn't know that.

[Becky]

I didn't know your sister and you.

[Alessandra]

We have the same middle name. Well, what's.

[Becky]

I mean, middle name, obviously.

[Alessandra]

My mom claimed she named me, and then when I met my sister and her name was Michaela Ray, and it was spelled M I K A I L, A, so the same way as mine and her middle name was Ray, I was like, you did not name me.

[Becky]

Is she older than you?

[Alessandra]

She's four years younger.

[Becky]

Oh, okay.

[Alessandra]

Almost to the day. Four years younger. And we have.

[Kale]

Have you ever met her? No, I've met her a couple times, I think.

[Alessandra]

You did. Yeah. I think she knows you.

[Kale]

Yeah, we.

[Alessandra]

We had a falling out for a little bit, and she. We rekindled our relationship, and it was very similar to our rekindling. One day she reached out to me and. And sent me a long message, like, apologizing for, like, who she was back then. And she was going through a lot, and I don't think she would mind me talking about it. And. And I said the same thing to her. It was just like we were both. And it was around the same time.

[Kale]

Yeah. 2020 just wasn't a great year for anyone.

[Becky]

No, not for anybody. We're here, though.

[Kale]

That. That's. We made it through.

[Alessandra]

We're not horizontal.

[Kale]

We are not horizontal.

[Alessandra]

So my sister and I are. That's our story.

[Kale]

That makes me happy for you.

[Alessandra]

Well, I just. My sister and I also have open conversations too, like you and I have. And, you know, I think that that also plays a part. Like, we're just. We're just different people. And I don't know, like, why are we not talking about that? It's, like, not. It's not even so much about the falling out. Right. Like, across the board. Not just for us or for my sister, but just across the board is like, we don't have to, like, have a falling out. It can just be that we are not aligned.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

And it doesn't make you a bad person, and it doesn't make me a bad person. We're just not aligned. Yeah.

[Kale]

You don't have to force a friendship just because of, like, history and time. It's okay to kind of. I feel like that has saved relationships for me, allowing it to just naturally take its course and not recognizing it being anything other than what it is. So that when we do have conversations or see each other, it's great, right? Like, it's not some type of turmoil. Yeah. There's. There's. How are you supposed to stay friends with people your entire life all the time, when you barely like yourself? The years that you're getting to become who you're going to be?

[Becky]

I have a friend that is a friend of a friend. And now she's, like, my best friend. I'd say probably one of the closest people to me. And when we first became friends, we're very different. We grew up very differently. She's very conservative, Catholic, like, literally the complete opposite of everything I am in every way. And in the beginning, that was difficult for me, especially when it comes down to, like, certain political views. I believe, like, everybody has their right, but when your political views infringe on my rights, then it's difficult for me to, like, get close to somebody. And because we were, like, forging a new relationship, we were constantly being, like, thrown into the same. Same spaces. And we never could talk about, like, anything. We never could talk about anything controversial at all. Like, not even just political anything, because we would not come from the same view at all. So we just avoided it. And that if you can't have those conversations, you're not going to grow, like, a deep relationship. So we were always friends. I'd say we were close friends, but we're never as close as we are now. And we both, in the last. I mean, like, eight years, 10 years, have changed so much in the way that we approach things. Things and the way that we view things and how we can have certain conversations that we've gotten down to the core of that we're more like. Than we are different. Like, we value the same things. And I just think it takes that time to grow. I think you can place somebody not on a shelf, but kind of like to the side. There doesn't have to be a falling out. There doesn't have to be anything. I think just if it's meant to be, it'll be. And you'll naturally get to that point. But I think each person has to do their own growing.

[Alessandra]

Why do you think it's important to talk about controversial things, Things maybe politics or just anything controversial with friends? Why is that important, do you think? Because I, I would say I asked that because we, obviously we're. I'm way different than I was back then. I don't have to tell you that. You already know, but we had like a disagreement. But truly that wasn't why we fell out. And it was, you know, about differences of, of opinion or whatever. But I also, also have another friend who is so severely. I don't know if that's the right word, like religious, that I just don't feel like, even if we weren't having conversations, I just don't think that our friendship is the same. Does that make sense?

[Kale]

That's fair.

[Alessandra]

It's. Yeah, but so why. I feel like if you and I never talked about politics ever again, or like if you and I never talk about women's rights or gay rights or anything.

[Kale]

Yeah, but that's because I don't have to question if you value women's rights or like gay rights.

[Alessandra]

So. But why do you think that's important for. Because I. The same can be said about my ex husband. Right. Like, he grew up Catholic, went to a Catholic school, graduated from a Catholic high school. You know, he goes, I think religion.

[Kale]

Is different than politics just because religion is like, what people like, that's their belief. I guess it's not different because at the end of the day, what you believe in, in politics really is. Shows the value and of who you are. Right. Like, what your values are, what your political views are, are pretty much aligned.

[Alessandra]

I honestly don't know. Politically speaking, I, I most religion I know, like, what my friends, like, if they have religion, I know what they are. But politically speaking, I have no idea how people vote and I don't give a. So I'm just curious.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

From, you know, Alessandra's perspective. Perspective is like, are you talking about controversial things with your friends? You are.

[Becky]

Yeah. I mean, even with things we don't disagree like, that we don't agree on, I think it's important to be able to have productive conversations and like, be like, I see your point, you see mine. They're not going to change. And here we are. Like, I think there's a very, there's, there's a difference when you belong to a marginalized group. Like, I'm a woman of color and so if you believe certain things, like, I don't want to Be the exception. Let's say that I feel like I grew up a lot of the time being the exception. I was always told that like I talked like a quote unquote white girl and things like that. So I feel like I was the exception for a lot of people. I was a lot of people's first brown friend. I was a lot of people's first fat friend. Just all of these things. And I think that the older I get, the more I want to be proud of who I am and not shy away from that. Like I used to hate my life last name because it was so obvious that I was Hispanic and I grew up in like a predominantly white community and I used to go by Alex because I wanted to assimilate and that was really important to me. And now if the way that you view the world and the way that you, let's say vote, because that's really not that important. I, I have friends that vote on both spectrums. There's very different situations in the political climate in where now there's extremists and then I'm not going to with you if you're an extremist, but there are just things like that on every level level like I'm. If you're an extremely like extremist in your religion, we're not going to get along. Like, okay, so many different things.

[Alessandra]

Okay.

[Becky]

It's not just political to me.

[Alessandra]

I see what you're saying.

[Becky]

But I do think like if your values don't align with the betterment of like me and like the groups that I belong to, then like we're not going to get along. And I think it's important like there's we can have a difference of opinion but not a difference of morality. And it. At the point of my life I am now where I'm like, I want to bring kids into this world and I want them to be around my friends. I think it's important for me to know that.

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[Alessandra]

No, for sure. I I think the way when you first said it, I was thinking you're having extreme extremist conversation.

[Becky]

And the friend that I'm talking about, both of us were like that. She was more like very extreme and I was very extreme, like very dis. I was very disrespectful and loud. I wouldn't say I was loud. I was wrong and loud. But I was disrespectful and loud. And my delivery was rough. I was an angry person. I held a lot of anger for things and I put it on people that they didn't deserve it because of the things that I've experienced in life. And so the way that I view the world is so different now and it's not black and white. It just isn't.

[Alessandra]

Would also agree.

[Kale]

I couldn't agree more. I was, I held 2016 to 2020. I held so much hate in my heart that I hated everyone. And like I had no room for discussion or no room for opportunity for discussion. And I'm not, I'm just not the same, that same person anymore. Like I value conversation. I value having like a difference of opinion and having educated conversations. And I open the door for that because like that's how we're going to get through this, is finding we all want the same thing. At the end, like, not all of us, but there's. The majority of us is a lot more in common than we think we are. And all it takes is having those conversations to find that. I got in a fight with someone on Facebook the other day. I'm a Facebook fighter sometimes, and it was about abortion. And, you know, they said something along the lines of, we need better access to birth control and harsher penalties for rapists. Why does abortion have to be the only thing? And I was like, yeah, you're right. Yeah, we need better access to birth control and harsher, harsher penalties. Like, we don't want abortion to be the only option.

[Alessandra]

Not that nobody wants to be.

[Becky]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kale]

And I said to her, I said, we. I was like, we can disagree on abortion, on our values of abortion, like, that. That's fine, but, like, we really want the same thing here. We don't want people just having. You know what I mean? Like, never. We want access to all the. All the things that people need. So there's just a lot more commonality in. In us. And the hate got me nowhere except for a really just dark time for myself. I can relate to that.

[Becky]

I was a keyboard warrior, like, fighting with everybody and, like, calling everyone and, like, you're just not getting anywhere. That. And like, I just have way better productive conversations now. Way better, for sure.

[Alessandra]

But to your point, I think extremists. I can't. In any. In any. What is it facet? Like, I can't handle that. And so I am having a hard time.

[Kale]

Religion's hard. Religion's hard because I understand religion from a belief perspective. It. It brings people closer to something that they need and that they want to believe in. It makes them a better, better person, and it makes that. It gives them a purpose. And sometimes you need a purpose, and I get that.

[Alessandra]

And I get that.

[Becky]

I don't.

[Kale]

I don't like when people try to, like, convert me to anything my. Or talk about it honestly. Like, I don't really have an interest in talking about the Bible a lot.

[Alessandra]

Not Elijah. Javi was like. I was saying Catholic, went to Catholic school, Catholic high school, all the things. And we never really discussed religion. We never had to it, never. Because neither one of us were extremists.

[Becky]

That's so interesting.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Becky]

Married.

[Alessandra]

We got married, and it was never a conversation or a point of contention that we didn't go to church. He really didn't care one way or another. And we just never fought about it. It never came up. And it wasn't part of our divorce in any way, shape, or form. And so it's so interesting because I think that sometimes it can be a big point of contention for sure. And I honestly do not care what anyone believes, but I. In any. In any sort of facet, I guess, is the right word. I don't. I can't handle the extremist. So if he was a super, extremely religious person, we wouldn't have gotten married in the first place. Yeah. But same for all the other hot topics and controversial topics.

[Kale]

I mean, yeah, it was funny when we did our transfers, the doctor was like, do you want me to say a prayer for you, for you guys?

[Alessandra]

And I was like, you're like, we're literally using science.

[Kale]

I was like, no. And Leah's like, we'll use all the help we can get.

[Alessandra]

Yeah, I'm gonna guess we'll give it a go.

[Kale]

I know. It was so cute.

[Alessandra]

I love that.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Becky]

Yeah. I don't have a. I don't have a problem with religion per se. I just don't like when people use it as an excuse for their bigotry and hatred. I don't think that's the point of religion. Fundamentally. That's not the point of religion, but it's just been used to cause so much strife and war and things. So it's. It's difficult. Like, I don't think I would be really close friends with someone who was, like, hyper religious. We just wouldn't get along. They wouldn't like me. Like, it's not about. You know what I mean? And it's not like that I don't like them. I just think we have different views. And also, I'm not wishing you any ill will either. Like, you do you. And that's great. Like, as long as you're not hurting me or anybody else, I don't really give a fuck what you believe, and I don't care who you sleep with. I don't care what you believe in. I don't give a.

[Alessandra]

Like, I don't care.

[Becky]

I don't at all.

[Alessandra]

I don't care at all.

[Kale]

It's. It's funny because I came out unscathed a little bit of. I grew up super religious and.

[Alessandra]

Really?

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

Like, Catholic or Greek Orthodox. So are you, like, recovering or.

[Kale]

No, I. I have no ill will towards my religious upbringing because I was just like. Half the time the sermons were in Greek, so I never understood it. They. I'd never heard them talk ill will about someone. And so I just don't have a negative relationship with like, my upbringing in church and we played sports all the time in church, so it was like. It was fun.

[Alessandra]

Your mom is Greek. Your dad is not.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

Okay.

[Kale]

But once I started traveling the world and learning about other people's religions, it wasn't even when I came out. I was still pretty religious gay for a while.

[Alessandra]

How was. How was your coming out to your family since you did grow up in a. Really.

[Kale]

In a. Oh, they didn't care. I'm the youngest of five.

[Alessandra]

Is it against.

[Kale]

It was bound to be one of us.

[Alessandra]

Is it against the religion of Greek Orthodox?

[Kale]

I have no clue. I would assume it is, but I've never felt like it was so, like.

[Alessandra]

You were just accepted. Yeah, I love that.

[Becky]

I'd agree.

[Alessandra]

We love Mary.

[Becky]

Different experience. Yeah.

[Kale]

I'm so thankful.

[Becky]

Yeah, it's really sad because, like, if. If you don't like an individual because of something, then, like, isn't that against, like, God's law anyway? Like, if God. If you believe God created man and you. You believe God created all these people, like, why would he create people that you were, like, meant to hate? I just don't believe in that. I also grew up religious. My dad's really religious. The only problem I had was actually.

[Kale]

Isn'T there irony that, like, your dad's, like, really religious?

[Becky]

Oh, please. Like, we've gotten into conversations. Like, his current wife is really my dad, too. Like, it's very interesting. A lot of the people who turn to religion to make them feel better about the bad decisions they've made.

[Alessandra]

1,000%.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

And that is, I think, one of the most infuriating things that I've encountered in my older, like, these last couple years is like, you're using your religion as. I don't even know what to say.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

Like, you're using your religion as a weapon to basically erase the things that you. And, like, of course, I don't want to hold on to the decisions that we've. All of us have made over these past, you know, 10 years or whatever the case may be. But to sit here today and use your religion as why you're a good person, and it's like, sir, where have you been for the past five years? Like, we've all grown and changed. Changed and evolved, hopefully. But, like, to use the religion as the reason is insanity, truly.

[Becky]

Yeah. My conversation that I was having with my dad and his wife once, and we were talking about my cousin who had just come out, and they were having. We were having, like, a family party, and he was like, I Don't care if his boyfriend comes. But, like, I don't want to see any of that. Like, I don't want to kiss it. Like, I don't want to see them kissing. And then his wife, who doesn't really ever talk to me as she should not. And she just piped in, and she said, yeah, it's against, like, our religion. And I said, so the. Is adultery. How are you gonna pick and choose what you believe is wrong and what isn't?

[Alessandra]

Did you say that out loud, period?

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

What did she say?

[Becky]

She. I got up and left. I said, so is adultery. I said. I specifically said, so is a married man and having children with him.

[Alessandra]

I love you for that.

[Becky]

Yeah. I was very angry. Like, we would be.

[Alessandra]

So you don't.

[Becky]

I have very. Like, we've had conversations about that. You're like, I don't see you as an angry person. Like, my. I've had to unlearn that and unpack that. But my favorite first emotion is anger. It's the one that I feel, like, the highest, and it's because it's protected me, and it's a defense mechanism, and I had to, like, lower that. And I'm. I'm less. I show my anger to people I feel, like, super safe with and that they're not, like, gonna run away from that, but I am. I do have a lot of anger that I've had to work through.

[Alessandra]

I learned that anger is a secondary emotion to be hurt or whatever. Whatever it is, is. And so you were. That was your dad or your uncle that you were.

[Becky]

That was my dad that I was talking to.

[Alessandra]

Given your childhood and what I know about how you grew up is, like, hurt. And then the anger comes. But it's so interesting that. Because it's a secondary emotion, but it comes so naturally. And that is our first reaction. Like, how much trauma did we have to go through for the anger to be first? Right. Like, because we know it's a secondary emotion, but the hurt is always there, I guess, is what I'm saying. So that's why the anger is first.

[Becky]

And I learned that from my dad. Like, I was my dad in that. Because you grow what, like, you witness. So anger was, like, a very normal thing in my household. But, like, I was always told, like, not to. Like, I didn't cry Till I was 19. And then I never stopped. Like, I never cried. Like, I would cry only in private, like, as a kid, but I was told that that was something you shouldn't do. Like, I don't really give a about your emotions and how I made you feel, like you should just swallow them. And I did, and that's not healthy. Like, it came out in other ways. It will if you're not, like, expressing them. And then I started crying at 19 because I started drinking. And alcohol is a depressant, and it makes you feel your emotions. And I'd say from like, 19 to 21, I definitely struggled with alcohol, but I think I was drawn to it because it made me feel like I wasn't numb anymore.

[Alessandra]

It was like an outlet almost.

[Becky]

Almost, yeah. Even though it was, like, a goddamn mess and it fucked me up. But I think, like, it helped me release, like, all of that. That was like, now I crawl all the time. I cry all of the time when I'm mad, when I'm sad. Yeah, I cry all of the time. And people would be like, oh, I don't really, like, view you as an emotional person, because I feel like I do. Like, I'm very direct and, like, I can be angry. But like you said, that's the secondary emotion. The anger comes from somewhere. It comes from, like, the little girl who's sad. Like, I really feel like we all. I, Like, I'm really connected to my inner child. I think we all are. Like, I just want to do everything for her. Like, I want to protect her. So I've been so, like, defensive and protective of her my whole life, and that the way I was able to keep her protected is the anger. And I had to really work down that because you're not going to have, like, really good relationships. You're not going to have close, intimate relationships if you're constantly on the defense and you're not letting people in.

[Alessandra]

That was me.

[Kale]

I was just about to say that was definitely you.

[Alessandra]

But Alessandra and I are one in the same.

[Becky]

I feel like, yeah, I feel like you went through so much that, like. Yeah. Like, why wouldn't you have been on the defense? Why wouldn't you have been an angry person? I feel like you, from what I know, obviously I didn't know you at the time, but I feel like you tried. And then I feel like every time you tried, you were getting knocked down. So it becomes like, well, it. Why do I keep trying then? If it's always going to. If I'm going to be the villain, if I'm going to be the bad guy, I'm going to be the bad guy. And I always felt like that, too. But I just think. Think you're. You're not getting Anything from that. Like everybody else. Like, I really don't give a what anybody thinks about me. And I don't think you should either. I think nobody should. Like, it doesn't matter, you know, who you are, you know, what's gotten you to this point and how much work you've gotten there. And we all have more work to do. But I think, like, why wouldn't you have gone on the defense? Why wouldn't you have tried to protect yourself?

[Alessandra]

You were.

[Becky]

I'm not trying to diagnose you, but you were abandoned by your mom and your dad. You never even had that solid foundation, and there is no growth. I've talked about it so many times on Vibin. The foundation of every single relationship is safety. If you don't feel safe within the people. Yeah. And trust comes from that. Like, if I feel like I can trust you, I feel safe with you. I can feel vulnerable. I can feel those things. So if you're not feeling safe within yourself, you're not feeling safe with all the relationships around you, what is going to happen? You're going to be defensive, you're going to become angry. You know what I mean?

[Alessandra]

I know that makes. I mean, it's crazy because I don't think my therapist has ever even, like, worded it that way. But, like, the way that you're saying it makes so much sense. I mean, I don't know. We're not here to diagnose each other. But, like, also. Agreed.

[Becky]

Yeah. I think, like, I think our childhood plays significantly more of a role in who we are as human beings. We really think. Because it was our subconscious. Like they say you've got from zero to eight and that's it, baby. That's how you grow your subconscious and everything else is carried through.

[Alessandra]

Zero to eight years old.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

So wait, what do I need to be doing then for my kids now?

[Becky]

I think you kids are.

[Alessandra]

Wait, okay, hold on. Because now I have to go back and, like, think about, did I traumatize my kids between 0 and 8 years old?

[Becky]

The answer is yes. Because we all, like, are. We all, like, parents are not. We're humans. Like, I just have this conversation with my mom. Like, the woman, the woman that I am understands how you, like, why you moved the way you did. But the child and mother relationship, I'm sad and I'm angry and I'm hurt, but as a woman, I get you. Like, parents are not superheroes.

[Alessandra]

They.

[Becky]

They're just figuring it out. They're just figuring out life. This is their first time too so, yeah, you're gonna fuck up. We're all gonna fuck up our kids because we're humans and we're learning and we're growing and we make mistakes.

[Alessandra]

Well, no, it's interesting. And I know this isn't like a parenting podcast, but I have always wondered why my divorce with Javi has impacted Isaac the way that it has was. And why certain things are the way they are. And anytime we have a heart to heart, he always brings it back to the divorce. And you brought up abandonment, and you brought zero to eight. We got divorced before he turned eight.

[Becky]

And people think, like, abandonment is because, like, your parents left or this. Like, you could have abandoned Moon abandonment moods from literally anything. Like a friendship that left you when you were feeling sad, a relationship, a father figure, like, anything like that.

[Alessandra]

So I wonder how moving forward. Right. Like, now that I know this. So Lincoln's 11, and he's had Javi and myself equally his entire life and has had that security for. From both of us, how that'll be different for maybe Lux and Creed. Right. And, like, Lux is seven, but, like, he will tell you my mom's my ride or die. Like, he just knows. So I'm just so fascinated now. Now it's like, without even trying. My kids are a experiment.

[Becky]

Everyone's kids are.

[Alessandra]

No, because they all have such different.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Alessandra]

Same mom, but very different relationships. Yes. And I think. Not to say like, their parent, their dad's abandoned them. That's not necessarily what I mean. But, like, just because of the different dynamic, like, how is that going to affect them? Or what differences will I see as a mom based on that? Specifically Lux and Creed because they have the same dad. So I think it's easier for me to kind of see the differences there where, like, Isaac. I know for a fact that this divorce, like, really impact him, but you saying 0 to 8 now, it makes sense is, like, that was really a crucial time for him.

[Becky]

Well, also, you're already seeing the differences, right? Don't you say, like, the twins and Rio are, like, your easiest babies? Oh, my God. Well, there's. You have help.

[Alessandra]

But also, I'm an older mom who has in some ways, more on my plate, but some in some ways less. Like, I have the help of another parent, and, you know, I have child care during the week, but my other kids, it was just very different. But I. I'll be curious to see how it all plays out. That's really interesting.

[Kale]

We're all learning a lot.

[Alessandra]

I just feel like I went to a therapy session so if you guys want to sign up for therapy sessions with Alessandra, Becky and myself, let us know. It won't be certified or we don't have credentials, but we can medical advice. This is absolutely not medical advice. But so interesting. Well, thank you so much for joining us on Karma and Chaos with Kale and Becky. Go follow Alessandra. She is the co host of Vibing and kind of Thriving that has its own Instagram. And tell them where to find you.

[Becky]

On socials vi with ABG across all socials.

[Alessandra]

Love it.

[Kale]

Love it.

[Alessandra]

Thank you.

[Kale]

I really enjoyed this conversation. So I appreciate you.

[Alessandra]

Y'all are going to be friends for life.

[Kale]

I know. I feel like we are going to be friends.

[Alessandra]

Thank you Chandler for all your hard work.

[Kale]

Thank you Chandler for all your hard work. Thank you everyone for listening. Come back next week.

[Alessandra]

Next Tuesday, same time, same place.

[Kale]

Same time, same place.

[Alessandra]

Did you know you can watch all.

[Becky]

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[Alessandra]

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[Chandler]

Hi, I'm Lauren. And I'm Chandler. And we're the hosts of Pop Apologist podcast. A weekly podcast devoted to celebrity gossip, Hollywood deep dives, Real housewives, drama and anything and everything.

[Becky]

Taylor Swift.

[Chandler]

We're two sisters who make no apologies for our love of pop culture and the fact that a listers might mean.

[Becky]

More to us than each other.

[Chandler]

Join us on your favorite podcast app every Wednesday for Pop Apologists. Pop Apologists, your new favorite sister and celeb podcast.

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[Kale]

After the end of a good fight.

[Becky]

You deserve an ice cold reward. Medella. You put in the hours, the energy, the tough labor.

[Kale]

Because you know the bigger the fight, the better the reward. Medela, the mark of the fight.

[Alessandra]

Prick Responsibly Beer reported by Crown Import Chicago, Illinois.