Snowed In & Spiraling

Summary

Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter Episode: Snowed In & Spiraling
Date: December 16, 2025

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Episode Overview

In “Snowed In & Spiraling,” hosts Kail Lowry and Becky Hayter settle in for a candid, wide-ranging conversation about the highs and lows of motherhood, friendship changes in adulthood, and the evolving dynamic of life in their 30s. Against a backdrop of snowstorms and busy family life, they discuss the reality of parenting, maintaining traditions, personal growth, and even weigh in on a tough ethical listener dilemma. Their trademark unfiltered honesty and blend of humor make for a deeply relatable episode.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Motherhood: The Good, The Bad & The Exhausting

• Sleepless Nights and Mom Fatigue
  • Kail shares her struggles from the night before: "[Bex] didn't, like, nap well yesterday he was pissing me off. ... I'm going to lose my mind." (00:55)
  • Both reflect on how having a ‘good baby’ can make rough days feel much harder due to a lack of practice with tough behaviors.
  • Divorce rates after the first child come up: "Now I fully understand why the divorce rate is so much higher within that first year of having your first kid." (02:04)
• The Long Haul of Parenting
  • Kail and Leah discuss longing for life beyond constant childcare. Leah contemplates law school once her kids are older: "When they're in school full time... what type of person will I be?" (03:26)
  • The sentiment that it takes about seven years to feel fully like yourself after childbearing and postpartum is echoed.

2. Family Traditions & Finding Connection

• Creating New Traditions
  • Inspiration to start a ‘Kale Family Day’ for when their kids are grown, so extended family remains connected: "You need to have a special day where you get... all of them for something." (05:00)
  • Reflections on how holidays feel more ‘optional’ now and the struggle to maintain close-knit get-togethers like past generations.
  • Ideas for family vision boards and manifesting together as a fun annual event (07:00).

3. Children’s Health & Fever Dreams

• Navigating Kid Illnesses
  • Kail describes her kids’ flu bout, dealing with scary fever dreams and sleep disruptions. She describes vividly comforting her son through terrifying nightmares: "He's full blown sobbing... he's like, no, it was real. It was really like. I felt so real." (08:48)
• Discussing the Science of Fever Dreams
  • Both recall their own experiences with fever dreams during illness and acknowledge how real and distressing those can be for kids.

4. Pop Culture Check-In & TikTok Joys

• Comfort Creators and Social Media
  • Leah gushes about her new favorite TikTok personality, the 102-year-old Hungarian grandmother filmed by Ryan Roth: "She is so magical and I love her and I love that family." (15:54)
  • Kail laments her For You Page’s recent lack of joy, linking it to her own mood.
  • Touches on celebrities’ ‘secret’ social media accounts and the idea of having multiple accounts for fun or income (17:17).

5. Personal Growth, Cooking Goals & Modern Adulthood

• Trying New Things
  • Leah experiments with photography and buying her first cookbook: “A cookbook? You just wanted something to read.” (18:22). After support (and some skepticism) from friends and hilarious comments from her kids, she commits to making chicken cutlets.
• Delegating & Kid Empowerment
  • A proud parenting win: Leah’s five-year-old cleaned the playroom so well she owes him $100 (20:09).

6. Friendship Shifts & Parental Identity

• Changing Friend Relationships
  • Kail switches her 'Top Eight' (PIN) text conversations as a form of boundary-setting: “I switched them around. You're still there.” (21:24)
  • They reflect on how friendships shift with motherhood, noting how hard it can be to sustain pre-parenthood connections, especially when schedules and interests diverge.
• Longing for Community
  • Kail romanticizes the idea of a ‘commune’—all her friends living nearby to help raise each other's kids: “All my problems would be solved if I just lived on a commune.” (25:22)
• Guilt, FOMO, and Self-Compassion
  • The hosts share stories of mom guilt, missing out on social events, and mourn the loss of former relationship intimacy due to the focus and fatigue of raising young children. Kail candidly admits: "Me and Leah don't even, like... we are two separate humans right now walking through life besides... Bex, but individually." (37:06)

7. The Realities of Parenting & Legacy

• Advising Against Rushed Parenthood
  • Kail bluntly tells a couple enjoying child-free life not to rush into kids: "If you enjoy traveling and enjoy your life, I just can't imagine, like, a child coming in..." (27:14)
  • Leah discusses encouraging her teens to hold off on kids or not have them at all, wanting them to truly live.
• On Parenting Styles and Sibling Dynamics
  • The hosts get reflective about how parents were different with each child and how this shapes sibling relationships and perceptions: “My mom's patience with me was a lot better than my mom's patience with my sister...” (44:30)
  • Leah and Kail agree that while parenting doesn't get easier, the challenges just become different.

8. Listener Dilemma: Karma or Chaos? (51:23)

• Veterinary Ethics Quandary
  • A listener writes in struggling with the ethics of reporting a vet who cut corners on safety and protocol, but who is also the only one supporting her new business after a tough year.
  • Advice from the hosts:
    • Kail suggests holding out on reporting unless there’s actual harm being done: “If it was me, I would hold out until I had another vet... If you think that's like a dog or cat... is going to die because of him, then maybe.” (54:34)
    • Leah echoes the sentiment: “It doesn't sound like he's... If clients and fur babies love him... and nobody's been hurt ... I'm gonna kind of look the other way.” (55:57)
    • Both gently recommend seeing if the listener can subtly improve legal compliance at the vet's office in the meantime.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the challenges of parenting:
  • "Now I fully understand why the divorce rate is so much higher within that first year of having your first kid." —Kail (02:04)
• On making family traditions:
  • “You need to create, like, a family, like a Kale Family Day, and make it, like, special for your family...” —Kail (05:00)
• Heartbreak of sleep loss:
  • "He's full blown sobbing... He's like, no, it was real." —Leah (08:48)
• On shifting friendships:
  • “I switched around my top eight. I was feeling a little angry at some people... You're still there.” —Kail (21:24)
• On yearning for village life:
  • "I just feel like all of my problems would be solved if I just lived on a commune." —Kail (25:22)
• On the reality of partnership after kids:
  • “Me and Leah don’t even. Like. Like, we are two separate humans right now walking through life besides, like, taking care of, like, Bex, but like, individually.” —Kail (37:06)
• Listener dilemma, the moral gray area:
  • “Controversial take... if clients and fur babies ... love him ... I'm gonna kind of look the other way.”—Leah (55:57)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Motherhood struggles in infancy & toddlerhood: 00:55 – 04:09
• Creating new family traditions: 05:00 – 08:16
• Fever dreams & kid illness stories: 08:39 – 10:58
• Pop culture chat (TikTok grandma, secret accounts): 15:52 – 17:28
• Leah’s new cookbook & cooking confidence: 18:10 – 19:59
• Delegating chores to kids – $100 playroom clean: 20:09 – 21:05
• Friendship evolution and "top eight": 21:24 – 22:14
• Communes and longing for village life: 25:22 – 26:32
• Relationship and identity loss post-baby: 37:06 – 39:39
• Listener moral dilemma (Vet ethics): 51:23 – 57:04

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Tone & Language

The tone is authentic, sometimes raw, often humorous, and deeply empathetic. Kail’s directness and Becky’s supportive humor both shine through: they don’t sugarcoat the exhausting chaos of real life, but they also lift each other up and find laughs in the madness.

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For Listeners...

If you’re in the trenches of parenting, feeling friendship growing pains, or simply craving real talk about modern adulthood, this episode delivers. You’ll walk away reassured that you’re not alone in your spiraling—and maybe inspired to start a new family tradition (or at least finally try that recipe).

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Transcript

[Kale]

Hello, good morning, good morning, good evening, good day, good night to my karma roos.

[Leah]

It's snowing here. Actively snowing and sticking. What about you?

[Kale]

It is not snowing here. It's cold. I did break. It's 22 degrees outside. I went for a walk this morning with Bex.

[Leah]

Love that walk.

[Kale]

Down to the mailbox and back, which is a long trek. A long trek. And he did great. He was like, loving his life. I mean, like, oh, stop.

[Leah]

Oh, my God.

[Kale]

Stop it. But I will say we had a little bit of a rough night last night. I think he might have been a little jet lag. He didn't, like, nap well yesterday he was pissing me off.

[Leah]

Yeah, it'd be like that sometimes, you.

[Kale]

Know, and it makes it so much harder because he's so good. So we don't deal with a fussy baby often. And so it was just like, holy shit, I'm going to lose my mind.

[Leah]

Yeah, no, I completely understand that. That's what I think that we were sort of talking about that yesterday when I was like, you know, sometimes having like a difficult child will really, really just change the way you look at motherhood.

[Kale]

So.

[Leah]

And I never know, like, so when you have a really, really good baby and you're used to that, and then they have a bad day or like a bad couple of days, and you're like, I can't do this. Like, because you're not used to it. So you're like, I can't do this. Or on the flip side of it, it's like, you know that they're good all the time and you're like, oh, like, he's usually good all the time. Like, I got this. No big deal. I'm with you. Where it's like, if I lose a good baby now, I have no patience for a bad day.

[Kale]

It was. Well, I can. Now I fully understand why the divorce rate is so much higher within that first year of having your first kid.

[Leah]

Yeah, no doubt. No, I don't.

[Kale]

Like, I. I don't understand how people.

[Leah]

Have kids, but when I see people, not necessarily you, because you and Leah are, like, good, and you guys got like your little tag team thing going. When I really think about the trenches that are the first, specifically, the first year is all a blur. But then sometimes year two can be tough because toddlers sometimes get up at five in the morning and it's rough. I think that I'm mentally ill to have done it seven times.

[Kale]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, like, that's crazy.

[Leah]

I don't Know, like, the first year absolutely.

[Kale]

Is difficult because how old was Creed when you had Rio?

[Leah]

2.

[Kale]

So, like, you've literally never experienced beside, like, since Lincoln, because there is a gap between obviously, Elliot and Lincoln, but, like, you yet to experience life without an infant or a toddler.

[Leah]

Right now we. It's been two years since I had the twins, and I really feel like I won't get my, like, pink back. I, like, I want. I don't want to age myself. I don't want to, like, jump ahead because I actually love the age that the twins are at. But, like, what type of person will I be when they're five and they're going into kindergarten? Do you know what I mean? Like, when they're like. I think I read something somewhere and it said, like, seven years to, like, fully, like, get through everything postpartum and, you know, get your pink back and whatever. Like, what will that be like when they're in school full time? Because they only go to school for four hours right now.

[Kale]

Yeah. You know, like, what are you gonna do?

[Leah]

I want to go to law school. I'm gonna take my lsat and I really want to go to law school. Like, really.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Leah]

When they go, because they just started the law program here at a college near me. Before, there was only one about, like, an hour, hour and a half away. Now there's one right here, so.

[Kale]

Interesting.

[Leah]

And I would most likely take my, like, I know that there's, like, a fast track and then there's more in depth. It's going to take me a long, long time because I still have after school programs and I still have to podcast and I still have to do all the things. So it might take me five, six, seven years to graduate, but I want to take my lsat. I want to go to law school. I want to see what that looks like.

[Kale]

I just had this thought that came through my head, and it has to do with what we were just talking about.

[Leah]

Okay.

[Kale]

I need you to buck up and either create your own holiday because you won't. Like. Because I'm thinking about when all of your kids are, like, older, married, with their own kids. You need to have a special day where you get. Have all of them for something. Like. So you need to create, like, a family, like a Kale Family Day, and make it, like, special for your family so that ongoing. Every year, they. You have a day that, like, you have a dinner, you make some sort of tradition so that when you have grandkids and all the things, they have a day to be Excited for where they get to see everyone.

[Leah]

And it's like, mandatory. Have to be there. You know, when I was growing up, like, and I don't know if anyone else experienced this, but when I was growing up, Thanksgiving, until I was, like, 15, I don't remember what, how old I was. I was a teenager. Was at my great grandmother's. Okay. Nobody missed it. Like, there was. It was like, an unspoken rule. Like, it wasn't like, oh, we're doing this this year. Like, we'll see you next year. It wasn't like that. It was like, when my great grandmother was alive, nobody, not even Boozy Susie would miss. Like, all the siblings were there, you know, and then my second cousins, my mom's first cousins, Everyone was there. Like, nobody missed it. And, like, now it feels like holidays are whether you have traditions or not. It's like, more, like, optional.

[Kale]

Yeah, I would agree. That's why you need to make a mandatory.

[Leah]

But maybe not associated with Christmas. And when you said that, the first thing that came to mind. So some years, Elliot, me and Lincoln have done vision boards the first week of January. It would kind of be cool to do it on, like, the first weekend of January where it's like, we're setting the tone for the new year. What we want to see as a family, what we want to see. You know, what do the siblings want to see with each other? I kind of love that.

[Kale]

Or.

[Leah]

Or the other thought that came to mind was if we did it before Christmas, not associated with Christmas, but sort of like an end of the year recap. But that could get kind of morbid. So maybe we'll start the new year.

[Kale]

Yeah, I think the new year's a good idea because, like, Christmas gets fuzzy with, like, are we traveling for the holidays? Are they going to have partners that they're going to travel for? So, like, if you always have it the first weekend of the new year, like, there you go.

[Leah]

I love that idea. And I want to think of. I'm gonna ask Chat. Actually, you're a better chat GPT girly than me.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Leah]

Can you ask the. Can you ask Chat GPT? What do you call your Chat Sam? Can you ask Sam a character in the book that I'm reading. Can you ask Sam later creative names to call it? Like, yeah, sometimes we say Lowry land Kale in the chaos. Like, we need, like, a good. Like, it's gonna set the tone from the new year. We could do vision boards, have a dinner.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Leah]

And just kind of, like, honestly just manifest for the year a Family day.

[Kale]

Like. Like either you could play charades or like a game that, like, everyone can be involved in.

[Leah]

Yeah. I love that idea. Thank you for that. That's great. You're welcome.

[Kale]

Literally triggered. It was like a zap in my brain.

[Leah]

No, I love that. And I. I think that is. That's gonna be so cool. Like every year we do this. I love that I'm gonn it. And he's gonna be so excited. But I wanted to ask you if you knew because Leah's in the medical field or maybe it's just supposed to be common knowledge. Like fever dreams are a real thing.

[Kale]

Like when you have a fever.

[Leah]

Yeah. Did you know that was real?

[Kale]

I mean, dreaming is real. So like.

[Leah]

So Lux and Creed didn't go to school yesterday because they had flu, like, symptoms. Becky, when I tell you they did not move. They were in their own places. On the couch in the living room. I you not. They did not move. I knew they were sick because they did not move all day and all night. So they slept there too. Lux. I get into bed for the night and my. For those of you listening, my bedroom is on the main level, so it's attached off the living room. Luck starts screaming for me. He's. I come out in the living room, he's full blown sobbing. And he's telling me how vivid this nightmare was with the fire and the people and the whatever. And he's like looking around the room and he's like, no, it was real. It was really like. I felt so real. Goes to sleep, same thing. I get back in bed, come back out to him screaming, same thing. So I look it up because I. I remember fever dreams. So I look it up and sure as yes, because I guess the body's temperature and like fighting off the thing changes the things in your brain and causes you to dream, like, more vividly. And I felt so bad because I had no idea. But long story short, his fever broke and now he does not have a fever. So that's great.

[Kale]

I didn't. I guess I did realize I'm just like such a vivid dreamer. Like, typically that I'm trying to think if I've ever been sick and had crazy dreams. I probably have, but that makes me sad to think about, like, him crying.

[Leah]

Oh, my God. And they were like big. Those big crocodile tears. They were big. And I just felt so bad because it's like, you know when you wake up from.

[Kale]

Crocodile tears were fake tears.

[Leah]

No, crocodile tears are real. But there's. They're like fate. Yeah. I guess the emotions, I don't know. Whatever. That's not what I meant. They were just like big droplets. But I had fever dreams. Now that I like, think about it. When I had Covid the first time I was having crazy dream because I had fevers.

[Kale]

Yeah. What do you dream of?

[Leah]

I don't know. It's always weird.

[Kale]

Like what?

[Leah]

I don't know. Like one time I had a dream that my best friend from high school, Ariel, was chasing me with a heroin needle to like stab me with the heroin needle.

[Kale]

Oh my God.

[Leah]

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[Sarah]

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[AMPM Announcer]

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[Sarah]

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[AMPM Announcer]

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[Kale]

I. I had therapy the other day.

[Leah]

Huh.

[Kale]

And I was talking to her and she. I said something like, what's the worst that happens? Like, I die. I was like, oh, I guess that's not the worst. And then she said something like, you always like, talk about death like that. I was like, don't most people? But she's like, like, not. Not really. She's like, but we'll get. We'll get to the bottom of that some other time. Because we were like talking about something else. But like, do you think of death as worst case scenario or. No.

[Leah]

Me?

[Kale]

Yeah. Like when you're in a situation or like you're like, oh, I want to go here or something like, oh, but like, someone might die.

[Leah]

I have always had really like a dry sense of humor about death. Like, oh my God, I'll just kill myself. Or like, oh my God, I'll just jump out the window. Like, I didn't.

[Kale]

You know, maybe we're just too traumatized girlies just trying to get through the world.

[Leah]

You can I tell you about someone that I. That is okay. You know. You know who Corinna Fulgary, AKA Rose is, right? Like everybody's comfort creator. If you are crying or sad, go watch a Corinne Fulguri video, right. I have a new comfort creator who I'm in love with and I want to be like her. Okay, we are talking about Peter Thomas Roth. The guy who owns Peter Thomas Roth, like the skin care. His son Ryan. Ryan Roth. Also love the name. Love the alliteration, if you will. I don't think that's alliteration. Anyways, Ryan roth films his 102 Hungarian grandmother on the Tick tock.

[Kale]

Is she the one with the teeth?

[Leah]

She has fake teeth. Yeah, like veneers. She is so magical and I love her and I love that family. And I don't know what I need to do to be a part of the Roth family. I. But I'll do it.

[Kale]

Why don't you just reach out?

[Leah]

First of all, their team reaches. Like, they send me stuff all the time. So it's like, what is it going to take to collab with Grandma Roth?

[Kale]

I think that you should. I've. I haven't been having really great experiences on TikTok lately. My, like for you page just hasn't been making, you know, like, sometimes. I've talked about this before. Sometimes you have like a solid scrolling session where, like, you're just giggling and you're like, oh, this is fun and funny. Maybe just because I'm being like a Grinch right now and just like, life is not my favorite. Maybe, like, Tick tock's just not that enjoyable for me. But I just feel like I haven't had a good scroll. But did you see the interview with Jennifer Lawrence and how she says that she has, like a secret Tick Tock account that she uses to, like, comment and, like, she'll get in fights with people. Not about her, just like on random Tick tocks. And she said that someone was like, how old are you? Like, like, and like, commented back to her, you do that.

[Leah]

Wait, I have heard of people having second Tik Tok accounts and like, growing a second Tik Tok account to make more money.

[Kale]

I mean, smart.

[Leah]

I just got the cutest little picture of Rio in the snow through the school app. You have to see this.

[Kale]

Oh my God. D. I feel like he's grown so much.

[Leah]

Oh, my God. He's him and verse and I just. And they're at such a fun age. Also, I. I want to tell everyone that I am trying new things in 2026. Obviously posted a video of me with a camera and I was going to try to do photography. I don't think that that's gonna work out for me. So I did buy. I purchased a Cookbook at Walmart.

[Kale]

And.

[Leah]

And I would like to tell you the reactions that I received from buying said cookbook.

[Kale]

I feel like we'll keep going.

[Leah]

So I texted my friend Twizz and he said, a cookbook. You just wanted something to read. And then I get a text from my friend Kelsey, and she said, damn, Kale, I forgot to tell you. Link said, quote, I'm so glad my mom bought a cookbook. And I guess she said, he was so upset the other night, had me weak. And my friend Tiffany goes, what's for dinner? And Kelsey goes, dino nuggets, I literally think. And so tonight, actually, I'm not gonna lie to you, I saw this teen mom on Tick Tock and she has two. She's 17 and two kids, she lives on her own. And she made chicken cutlets and jasmine rice with cilantro and lime. And I'm like, if a 17 year old teen mom of two can do it, she's already off to a better start than me. And so they had a text twiz. And I was like, hey, like, is this right about how to make my chicken cutlets? And so went out and bought chicken cutlets this morning because I'm gonna make chicken cutlets and jasmine rice with cilantro and lime just to see if I can do it. And so I'm gonna start really small. But I don't have kids this weekend, so it's gonna be a lot of trial and error this weekend. And back to you with the result.

[Kale]

And then maybe if you get good at it, you can, like.

[Leah]

Could you imagine cooking with kale like a cookbook?

[Kale]

No, I don't think you need a cookbook.

[Leah]

But no, you took it too far with that idea.

[Kale]

I just don't know if you'd be able to, like, come up with your own dishes, you know?

[Leah]

Oh, yeah, no, I. This would be like replications of stuff that I would see. You know what I mean?

[Kale]

Or like your favorites. Like Kale's favorites, maybe like a kid's cookbook.

[Leah]

Lux and Creed came home from their dads this week. And the playroom, we had company and the playroom was a disaster. And a lot of times people will leave my house without getting up after themselves and whatever it is what it is. So Creed goes in there and he comes back out and he looks at me and I go, 100 bucks. You clean it When I send you the video of the job he did. And he has not. He has not stopped reminding me that I owe him 100 bucks.

[Kale]

Okay, did he Clean it good.

[Leah]

Rebecca. I was shooketh. My five year old cleaned this playroom as well as he did. I'm about to send you the video. You're going to be shook. You're going to be like, oh my God, no way. I was so impressed. And he took this video himself. Okay. He's so proud. And then he told me this morning, you have to go to the bank. He did an amazing job.

[Kale]

He did so good. And you could tell he's just so proud of himself.

[Leah]

He's so proud of himself. And I'm like, honestly, like truly the cutest thing.

[Kale]

That's crazy. I love that kid so much. What is on my list? Oh, I switched around my top eight. What?

[Leah]

What? You switched around your top eight? Like your PIN conversations?

[Kale]

Yeah, that is my top eight. I switched them around a little bit. I was feeling like a little like angry at some people and just like disappointed in people and so I switched, I switched them around. You're still there.

[Leah]

How many pin conversations do you have? Nine.

[Kale]

Six.

[Leah]

Six. I have nine.

[Kale]

I don't know if I want, I could add three more but I don't.

[Leah]

Know if I want to see my first row. Like my first three is mom's house group chat, Elliot Lincoln. So they're my first and then the 6 under are like my friends conversations, you know. Yeah.

[Kale]

I don't have kids that have phones yet, so maybe it'll grow when I have if there's more children in this house. But anywho, the top eight has changed and I just feel like, you know, life after having a child is really hard.

[Leah]

Yeah, it is, it's really hard and it's, it's ever changing and the group, it's gonna for you especially because Bex is so young. You know, it might be okay for a little bit but then once he starts like, I don't know if you put him in like a Sport for at 2 or 3 years old. Like that was introductory. You're gonna start meeting other moms there and then through school, playcare and daycare and all the things. And so some of those friendships are going to change. They're going to shift and some of them are going to be very surface level and some of them are going to be deeper than you anticipated. But the one thing that I'm struggling with right now, sort of in that same realm is that like I don't have any friends that have kids. Rio Link. Rio versus Valley's age. And I make new friends when they start sports because I'm so used to like my group. Hey, Leah.

[Kale]

Hi.

[Leah]

Hi. Happy beans. Two days in a row. Did you go for a walk this morning?

[Kale]

He did walk.

[Leah]

He was going for a walk. Yeah. Who is it? What are you doing? Take a ride on my tractor? Anybody?

[Kale]

Yeah, it's his. His cheeks get rosy when he gets tired.

[Leah]

Oh, really? I've seen the eyebrow thing, but not the. He's very happy for being tired.

[Kale]

Yeah, well, yeah.

[Leah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kale]

All right. Say bye, Bex.

[Leah]

Bye, Becks. See you later, love bug.

[Kale]

Bye.

[Leah]

Later. He's so happy. Oh, my goodness.

[Kale]

I see you.

[Lauren and Chandler]

Hi.

[Kale]

Hi. I can understand not wanting to make.

[Leah]

New friends, but even for you, like when you say that your friendships with motherhood are changing and they're hard and you change, like, what do you mean?

[Kale]

You know, it's. It. I don't even think it's my friendships that are changing. I think it's like me that's changing. And so. So, like, you're tired. You. You don't have your own time anymore. So, like, I'm more of a miserable person. So, like, I don't enjoy things. I don't enjoy spending time with people because I'm just, like, kind of miserable. I just feel like all of my problems would be solved if I just lived on a commune.

[Leah]

What is a commune?

[Kale]

Like, if I lived on a piece of land with all my friends.

[Leah]

Oh, like a compound.

[Kale]

Yeah. Isn't that the same thing?

[Leah]

I didn't know what a commune was, but I know what a compound is.

[Kale]

So commune. Like, imagine if we. Imagine if I lived in Elijah's house and Elijah didn't live in Elijah's house.

[Leah]

Oh, our life would be great because we could help each other out and it would be like not saying you don't have a village, but like. No. Yeah, but like, you. We would have it. That's so funny that you say that because the book that I'm reading, they literally, during COVID there was two couples that each have two kids and they literally would, like, help each other out because they live very close to each other. And so they're just like, help each other out and like, give the parents a break. And I, I think when you become a mom, like, your breaks become everyday things that are not actually breaks. So, like going to work, going to the grocery store, like, those are not breaks.

[Kale]

No. And I'm like, counting. I like, I try to. And I'm a project based person. So, like, I'm constantly doing things and like, I can't do anymore.

[Leah]

Because you're like, you're Always busy with the baby. Yeah, I get that. I. I actually, really, like, remember that time I wanted to come celebrate your birthday and I couldn't because there was a double header and I have 1200 kids, and it's. I had FOMO so bad, and it's. Obviously wouldn't change my kids for the world, but it also makes it very challenging to be a human being.

[Kale]

Yeah. It's just that maybe. Did I tell you about how I was at the bar, I went out with my friends for the weekend?

[Leah]

No.

[Kale]

So I went out with my friends. One of my good friends, her mom recently passed away, and we wanted to, like, give her a little bit of a boost. And so I drove down to Cape May and we went out. We, like, day drank and went out. It was fun. But I met this person at the bar, and she was talking to me and she was like, oh, you know, me and my husband are. We travel a lot. We do a lot of things, but, you know, we're getting older. I think she was like, 37. She's like, so we're, you know, it's. Or get off the pot. Like, do we want to have kids? And I was like, do you and your husband enjoy the lifestyle you live right now? She's like, yeah, we, like, love it. They live in Philly, all this stuff. And I was like, don't have kids. Do not have kids. I was like, I could not imagine having a child. When I was in my era of, like, going and traveling and doing a million things, and all my friends were going out, and every. Everyone around me was like, I had a child when everyone was, like, an old person already. Right. Like, we all just want to be in our house and sit on our couch and. Yeah. And so now we're just like, I don't know. I just can't. If you enjoy traveling and enjoy your life, I just can't imagine, like, a child coming in and just. Anyway, I'm salty right now. Don't listen to me. If you want to have a kid, have a kid.

[Leah]

No, but, like, I think that's why so many people are choosing not to have kids, you know, as early as they've been having them or. Or really at all.

[Kale]

Yeah, it's. I, you know, I just feel like people don't talk about it enough.

[Leah]

Oh, they don't. Or. Or we do talk about it, and it sort of just gets, like, swept under the rug. And, you know, Elliot tells me all the time that he does not want children. He never really liked babies to begin with. But selfishly, and I know this is going to sound crazy, maybe controversial, I have looked him dead in the face and said, then don't have them. Like, you are like, you're about to be 16. You literally don't have to have children. And if you change your mind later on. But like, as a mom, I low key hope that my kids either don't have kids at all or they have kids when they're like, way older. Do you know what I mean? And I'm not saying that to be like a dick. I'm saying that because I want them to live their lives to the, to the fullest. Like, I want them to be able to go travel and worry about coming and going as they please and, like, know that they always have a place at my house if, you know, times get tough. But like, to think about them having kids and like, I don't know, like, I just, I love my kids so much and I don't know what I'll do without them. But I also am, like, I would be perfectly fine and happy for them if they did not have children.

[Kale]

I agree.

[Leah]

Like, isn't that such a crazy, like, thought?

[Kale]

I don't think it is. Because when you have kids, everything changes. Like, and people, I don't know, people, it's just such a weird, taboo topic because everyone's life is so different. And some people thrive in parenthood, I think, unless they just lie. I don't know.

[Leah]

I mean, I feel like I thrive in parenthood, but it's also very, very, very difficult for me. Do you know what I'm saying? And the dynamic that went, it's not the number of kids, but after Creed having three kids, like, the babies, like, I cannot do things the way that I used to anymore. And I maybe because, I mean, maybe I could. But.

[Kale]

I will, however, say one caveat is seeing my guy friends in parenthood is like a silver lining. Like, it's really cute and special to see, like, my guy friends become fathers just because it's just like this soft and like, delicate child that I watch them hold and care for, which I think is really beautiful. And I feel like most of my guy friends are doing well in like, this new parenthood. But what do I know?

[Leah]

How does Leah feel? Is she sort of like, with you on, you know, how challenging it's been, or does she have a different point of view?

[Kale]

I think that we're like, in different. I think we're on the same page, but like, in different ways too, because she's dealing with different things. Than I am because she's dealing with the hormones of breastfeeding. She just got her period back. The hormones of, like, giving birth and, like, her body changes and, like, the effects that it had on her body and all the things. So I think that we're both just battling different things. But I don't know, maybe she enjoys it a little bit more. I don't know. It's getting better, but it's just like.

[Leah]

And don't be too hard on yourself, though, because all of these feelings and thoughts and things, they ebb and flow. Like, you might feel completely different next week and. Yeah, I don't. I just want you to give yourself some grace. I don't want you to beat yourself up over it. Because parenthood in general, like, there are ebbs and like, there are periods of time that you are gonna love and having a supportive partner is helpful. But there was a quote I read, and it was like, you know, there are so many, like, beautiful parts of motherhood, and sometimes if you don't have a supportive partner or you have a really difficult child, like, the really soft moments that you should cherish forever are sometimes ruined. So I think the silver lining here to be a little bit like you is like, how lucky are you that you have, like, a supportive partner to help get you through this? And so don't. Don't beat yourself up over it.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Leah]

Normal how you're feeling.

[Kale]

I think I'm, like, pretty self aware to, like, know it. Know that too. But even like, my other, like, my friends Morgan, you know, Morgan and Amanda, like, we're just like, what the is going on?

[Leah]

Oh, are they feeling the same?

[Kale]

Yeah, well, yeah, they. Yeah.

[Leah]

Another silver lining that you have. Well, that are going through the same. What about your sister? Does she kind of feel the same too?

[Kale]

Yeah, I think so. But that's what I mean. Like, I just, like, cannot. Maybe I just, like, was ignorant or blind to how people were around me that were having kids before I had kids. Right. Like, I never realized the struggles of it. And maybe it's like you have to live it to be able to understand it kind of situation too.

[Leah]

Do you remember, obviously you remember Peach My Honor from my wedding? There was a time where Javi was deployed and her boyfriend was out of. Her ex was in rehab. And so we got really, really close and she used to come to my house. I had Elliot and I was pregnant with Lincoln and we would cook together and like, basically raise Elliot together. She was always really good with kids. And then there came a time where Javi and I moved to Delaware, and while he was deployed, she never really came to see me. I would always have to go up north to see her. And we got into it and I was like, I. That was one of her arguments was that, like, she couldn't just pick up and leave to come down here. And I was the one that had two kids. And I'm like, I have two kids. Yes, I understand a two hour drive isn't that big of a deal, but it. But it literally is, like, yeah, on some days, sure, it's no problem, but on other days it's like, no, it. Like, no, we don't have anything going on today, but we don't have enough not going on to drive the two hours to go be there and to go see you and whatever. And, like, that was really challenging because she obviously couldn't understand. And it. Ultimately, we. She made her choices when Javi and I got divorced, like, who she was gonna be friends with, whatever. But, like, that was something. Trying to, like, explain that to someone who did not have kids. It was very hard.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Leah]

Have them. You get it.

[Kale]

I feel like I def. Like, I definitely go through, like, guilt periods too, of, like, not being there for my friends more that had kids when I didn't have kids. And. But I just, like, I know from my. Like, I don't expect that of people that don't have kids right now. Like, I don't expect them to understand, like, all the different layers of life that are, like, just being lived and being trying. Like, trying to survive. But that's what I mean. Like, if I. If I lived closer to anyone, like, I don't have any really friends in my town. Right. Like, I don't have any neighbors that are my, like, friends of mine. So if I lived close, like, I. If I could just imagine, if me, Amanda, Morgan, just because those are the ones I was talking about, like, lived next to each. I'm about to move to Delaware, honestly.

[Leah]

So come on, Morgan, me, we're all here.

[Kale]

So I just, like, I'm like, such, like, a popping person. Like, I love to just pop in people's houses.

[Leah]

Taylor's here, I'm here, Morgan's here. We all have babies.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Leah]

Come on.

[Kale]

I know. I'm hoping Carson and Kelsey move to Blairstown soon. They don't live too far. They're only like 25 minutes from here.

[Leah]

But, like, how far does Amanda live?

[Kale]

Amanda lives, like, 40 minutes.

[Leah]

So kind of tough sometimes, I'm sure.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Leah]

And with just like, everyday life.

[Kale]

Yeah. Like, it's by the time I get off work, it's like, I got an hour and then I have to start getting bedtime routine and all the things. I don't know. I just gotta figure it out. I gotta figure out. Just gotta figure it out.

[Leah]

Honestly, I think we'll get a lot of encouraging words and a lot of feedback for this episode, so I think that should be helpful.

[Kale]

And also, it's really fucked up that, like, no one talks. And I don't know if your experience of this won't. It won't be similar. So apologies, but no one talks about the morning of the relationship either. Like, me and Leah don't even. Like. Like, we are two separate humans right now walking through life besides, like, taking care of, like, Bex, but, like, individually. And that just is a result of having a child. And I think that there is an other side to it. I would hope that there is another side. I think that's why else would people stay together. But, like, that's so hard. Like, that part of, like, kind of losing that. I mean, our relationship was like, a huge identity of mine prior to Beck's being here too. So, like, that and the. My friends that I, like, have that I've talked to about it, like, feel the same way. I know that with you, like, Javi was away, so it's like, not in your face. And then you didn't really have that credit.

[Leah]

No. But I think what you're. What you're describing. I did, you know, with Elijah, like, that's the first person that comes to mind was like, yeah. And we never really had a relationship before I got pregnant, but he's still like, him and I have had conversations where he was the one that felt how you were feeling. Right. Like, after.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Leah]

I just. There was no time for us as a couple, let alone us as individuals, really. It was me as an individual. I'm thriving in my career and he's with the kids. And so that was hard. And so I In. On some level, I understand where you're coming from, and I could see why that would be really challenging.

[Kale]

It's like. I think it's. It's harder when you have such a solid foundation because you have something to, like, really mourn and miss. Right. Like, yeah. I think people that kind of are in toxic relationships use. And I don't know. So don't, like, come for me on this. But I think they probably use their child as their escape. Right. Because they're not getting that love and attention anyway. So they're like, Using their kid to. To kind of have that purpose in life.

[Leah]

Yeah.

[Kale]

But when you had.

[Leah]

When you.

[Kale]

That's something that you had with your partner, I think that it just kind of changes things.

[Leah]

I'm sorry, but to your point, there is another side to this.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Leah]

And I don't want to dismiss how you feel. So I'm here if you need me. No, I really am, because it's.

[Kale]

No, I. I don't know why I left.

[Leah]

It was.

[Kale]

It was funny because sometimes I forgot we're recording a podcast and not just, like, talk. That was one of those moments. So y' all just got my brain dump for.

[Leah]

For.

[Kale]

And the holidays are. I'm like, I'm really hoping. I love Christmas Eve. Like, I love what I do that day. So I'm really hoping maybe I need to do some microdosing.

[Leah]

Yeah, you said that last episode, and I feel like, just do it.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Leah]

Just, you know, it works. You know how to do it. Just do it.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Leah]

Okay. Well. I'm sorry.

[Kale]

It's okay. Well, I know that I'm not, like, alone in my. The way that I feel. I have a lot of people around me that, like, are new parents that are also going through. And I have people around me that are going through it with, like, a fussy and difficult kid. I couldn't imagine. I literally could. I, like, have, like, I. And, like, from watching my dad, I just have, like, a low tolerance for that. Like, I don't know. Like, I. I get, like, just so overwhelmed and so frustrated that I can't, like, solve or fix something. And I'd, like. I need to learn how to, like, kind of have more patience. I really think I need to start wearing headphones, like, to noise. Just cancel, like, when Bex is having, like, a meltdown, just because, like, it's the sound that, like, I don't mind having to hold him and try and, like, comfort him. But, like, the sat. Like, I'm just like, what the Is going on?

[Leah]

So maybe that also, like, this sleep deprivation and the irritability, like, all of that comes with it. So, again, don't beat yourself up.

[Kale]

Anyhow. Let me see. Oh, speaking. I have one other thing about babies on here is. Isn't it so interesting how you, like, learn little things about your kid, though, that, like, no one else knows or no one else would know how to do or. Or no one would. Like, if they're crying and, like, they just need, like, a small little thing to change, like, to. To, like, make them happy. Right. Like, Bex has, like, Certain quirks that he needs, but, like, we're the only ones that know them.

[Leah]

Yeah, there's. That's like a level of intimacy that like, only his moms would know, you know, and there's.

[Kale]

You're feeding him and if he like starts getting the tiny bit fussy, it's like, oh, he. You need a burp him. Like he needs to burp.

[Leah]

Like, you know, but nobody else. Yeah, no, that's really cool. And like, if you guys ever like, have other children too, it's really interesting to see, like, certain things sort of will be consistent and then certain things are very specific to each child, which is really good.

[Kale]

Yeah, it'll be very, like. It's the thing that I think we. I think we will definitely have another kid as long as things are or our bodies are able to because of using Bex is obviously mine, my embryo, and using Leah's embryo. It'll be interesting to see the difference of the embryo, like, of the embryos and because like, technically they're firsts. Right? Like if. Especially if I'm the one giving birth, like, are we gonna get lucky with two first kid? Like, I don't know.

[Leah]

I think. Just a quick question though. Like, as the baby of five siblings, do you feel like. And the age difference between you and your sister is what, two years?

[Kale]

Alex?

[Leah]

Yeah, two or three years.

[Kale]

Two years.

[Leah]

Do you feel like your parents. You got the same parents as her? Because.

[Kale]

No, we were different kids.

[Leah]

No, I. Well, that's part of my question because I think when you have back to back kids like Rio and the twins, to me, I had them at the same time. Like, they're only 11 months apart. So to me, I'm the same mom to the groups of kids, if that makes sense. Like.

[Kale]

Yeah, I don't think so.

[Leah]

In some ways, some ways, not all. Elliot and Lincoln got the same mom. In some ways, Elliot got a different mom. But then Lux and Creed, in some ways got the same mom.

[Kale]

No, we weren't. We weren't parented the same. We didn't. Like, our parents didn't have the same patience for like, for each of us, like our kids.

[Leah]

What, because you were different kids?

[Kale]

Yeah, because our personalities were like, different. Like, I. Well, I think of like being. Being like almost like a young teenager. Like, I. My parents didn't have to really worry or put any mind towards me because, like, I was always just playing sports and like, not really getting. Putting myself in trouble situations. My sister was like, sneaking out of the house and doing, you know, and doing all the things. And I think when, like, my brother was super annoying when he was little. Like, very, like, he's so smart. So, like, he was just, like, super, like, needy. I guess I was needy, too. I don't know. But, yeah, like, I think that my mom's patience with me was a lot better than my mom's patience with my sister. Or, like, my dad's patience with me was completely different than his patience with my sister.

[Leah]

How did that affect you, seeing that? Like, often I will think about, like, two of my kids specifically off the top of my head, gave me a harder time when it came, when it comes to, like, discipline. Right. And so. But their siblings would see the differences. So how do you think that that impacted you?

[Kale]

Looking back, I think it probably impacted my relationship with my siblings more than it did, like, my, like, relationship with my parents did.

[Leah]

Were your parents harder on any of your siblings?

[Kale]

Yeah, like, they were definitely. Like, my mom was, I would think, was definitely harder on my sister.

[Leah]

So did that bother you.

[Kale]

Or did.

[Leah]

You kind of understand why?

[Kale]

And I think it caused friction between, like, our siblings because, like, I was pissed that Alex was constantly causing friction in the house. Right.

[Leah]

So you were more frustrated with her.

[Kale]

Yeah. So, like, it affected our, like, our relationships. And then my brother was super standoffish. I don't know. Yeah. So I think that our relationships were affected by the way that our parents treated us differently.

[Leah]

And do you hold your parents, like, do you point the finger at, like, do you blame them, or do you sort of understand, like, why?

[Kale]

I have. I definitely have grace for my parents, but I definitely, like, recognize the. Like, we've talked about this before, right? Like, that generation was just, like, not loved by their parents. And so they. Their ability to have that emotional intelligence, like, passed down just, like, wasn't. Wasn't always there. I don't blame them. I, like. I don't hold any resentment towards them as, like, from a childhood perspective. I just. I don't know if there's a way around it. Like, I think that's just the. The result of having multiple children, like, is, ha. Like, each kid is gonna need a different person.

[Leah]

And traumatizing, though.

[Kale]

No, I don't think it's traumatizing. I, like, I think that if there is space where, like, you're, like, their feelings are valid and they feel safe and they feel, like, seen and heard. That's what the most like.

[Leah]

Or the kid getting in trouble. The. The. You're saying, like, seen and heard the other kids or the one that's causing all of them.

[Kale]

Like, like, at the end of the day, if the kids feel safe at your house and feel like, loved and heard, like, that's what matters. Like, kids are going to get in trouble. Kids are going to do things and, like, they're going to screw up and, like, you're going to have those ebbs and flows of it. I don't, I don't think there's, like, any way around it. So what I'm learning from this conversation is that it just never gets easier.

[Leah]

No, it doesn't. No, it literally does not. It doesn't get any. The, the challenges and that the ebbs and flows change, the, the types of challenges evolve, but. But it doesn't get easier. It's just a different kind of hard. And so, you know, it's been a learning curve because every year it's like, you know, even as a seasoned mom, you know, I'm still going through all. My first. With my first two, you know, so, yeah, it's, it's challenging. It's just a different type of challenge.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Leah]

Yeah.

[Kale]

Speaking of, did you see that Australia, I think.

[Leah]

Yep.

[Kale]

Is banning social media for kids under 16?

[Leah]

Yep. And I, I could understand why. I get it. I think that I have, like, a different, A sort of like a different perspective on it because I know how much money is in social media. And so I look at it as, like. Because people gave me a lot of. For starting Instagram accounts for my kids, but genuinely I was like, well, if there is a pop. An opportunity for them to make money at this point and I can hand it over some, you know, someday I want to do that. Obviously things are ever changing, but I.

[Kale]

Think the age should have been a little lower. I think it should have been like 13 before high school.

[Leah]

Oh, okay.

[Kale]

All high school kids have access, but, like, you don't have access prior to high school.

[Leah]

Yeah, I could get behind that. I could get behind like, you know, once you're. Excuse me, once you're in ninth grade, like, you can get social media. I keep buying that Lincoln doesn't have social media. He doesn't. I, I have an Instagram for him, but he doesn't have tick tock or anything like that. But, you know, at some point he's gonna have to have that. Like, he's gonna have access to it. So.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Leah]

Yeah. I mean.

[Kale]

It'Ll be interesting. It's definitely going to be like a.

[Leah]

Hard.

[Kale]

Hump to get over for them, but I would be interested to see if there's any decline in mental health issues. For, you know, young kids. Yeah, I'm down. I'm down to climb, you know. All right, here we go. Are you guys ready? Thanks for sticking with us. It is now time for Is it karma or is it chaos? You want to read it or you want to read it?

[Leah]

I can read it. Okay. Hi, ladies. Love the podcast and wanted to ask you and the listener something because I'm in such a moral dilemma. I'm a registered veterinary nurse and not in the US Last year, I lost my job two weeks after a miscarriage. My husband is sick, and I'm caring for him. I also started my own business this year. Oh, wait, hold on. It's an entirely new concept here and never been done before. It relies on veterinarians agreeing to work with me and staying local. They're the two key things I need for my business to work. Anyway, because it's new, I'm struggling to get vets to use my business. One vet, however, has taken the chance on me and agreed to work with me and publicize me. I work for him on Saturdays and during the week, he uses my business. Business is slow, but I know it'll get there, and I'm stubborn as a mule, so I'll stick it out. Problem is, the vet has agreed to use me should. Okay, hold on. The problem is the vet that has agreed to use me should be reported. I've seen some shady things in my time, but what this guy is doing is straight up illegal. And some things are criminal, although not like stealing from people, but taking an X ray of his brother's foot using vet clinic X ray or the X ray machine. Or the X ray machine isn't properly insulated. No recording of D. No recording of dangerous drugs leaving the dangerous drug cabinet open at all times. No recording of batch numbers or exp expiry dates on medications. And the notes are all handwritten by the nurse and not signed by her. She signs all of his things. No prescription labels at all, just handwritten instructions. It's been. It's like being in 1995, not 2025. He's a lovely man, but very old school. And the nurse is very lovely, but again, old school. There are so many things that if they were to have an inspection, they would fail immediately. Talking to the nurse and vet is out of the question. My moral compass and conscious tells me to report him. He's a danger to his staff more than anything, but clients too. He's a good vet, but doesn't follow current advice, protocol, or methods. So I want to report him because it's the right thing to do. The problem is he's the only vet who agreed to use me. If I A, report, he'll definitely know it's me. B, I'll tank my own business with other local vets and other local clients as people adore him. My business wasn't at risk I'd report, but I. And I feel awful that I'm hesitating for my own self, but I'm the only one bringing in any money. I'm caring for my husband and the vet has been very good recommending my business and using me. He's the only one to have taken a chance on me and my business and reporting him will inadvertently be killing my own business and which I need to survive because my life has imploded the last year and I'm only getting back on track again. This is a moment where if I report, it'll be both karma and this is a moment where if I report, it'll be both karma and chaos. But if I don't, it may turn out the same way. Am I wrong for choosing self preservation over the right thing to do? Help lady, because this is a doozy. Thanks again from a stressed veterinary nurse. First, I would like to say, and I don't know because I've never been in the vet industry, or are these some things that you could gently start doing, recording the stuff for him and putting away the cabinets and the prescriptions and things like that. Is that like, I don't know how it works.

[Kale]

I don't know how it works. I've never worked for a vet before. What a fascinating scenario to be in. What a moral dilemma. I don't know. I guess my thing is, like, if she's never. The X raying of someone's foot, like, doesn't bother me at all. Yeah, if it was more so like they were giving dogs treatments that were illegal or giving them wrong prescriptions to save money. Like, if they were scamming, like, in that way, that would be a little bit more concerning if the structure of, like, process, like, how old is this guy? Is he dying soon? Like, I don't know. If it was me, I would, I would hold out until I had another vet that I would like that accepted. Whatever business it. I don't, I don't know what business you're doing because it didn't say. But I'd wait to see if I could get, like, money, revenue coming in some other way before I made any changes. But if you think that's like a dog or cat or rat or whatever animal you have is going to die because of him. And then maybe, I don't know.

[Leah]

Hard.

[Kale]

Hard dilemma.

[Leah]

Controversial take.

[Kale]

What do you. What do you think? What would you do?

[Leah]

It doesn't sound like he's like, I get it. Like, procedurally we're talking. It's illegal. But, like, if his clients and fur babies and fur patients love him and adore him and nobody's been hurt this thus far.

[Kale]

Mm.

[Leah]

I'm gonna kind of look the other way.

[Kale]

Yeah. Especially when your. Your well being is like.

[Leah]

I mean, if. If talking to them is out of the question and they're that old school, that leads me to believe that maybe a retirement is on the horizon. And if he's been great to you and it. I mean, I'm the type of person that might try to just. It's one of those things where it's like, you do it and ask for forgiveness later. Like, could you go log the expiration dates on the medic doors and things like that? Is that something that you could do on your own? And then gently, just like, if they bring it up, it's like, oh, I'm sorry. You know, this is how I'm used to things. Procedurally. I know you said that not talking to them is. Talking to them is not an option, but I don't know, I just. I would try to do some of those things, and then I'm looking the other way.

[Kale]

Yeah. Is she. But, like, is she at fault if something does happen? Like, does she get looped into it? I don't know.

[Leah]

That's. It's karma and chaos, like she said. But I'm here to tell you that, like, if I thought she was gonna say it was so illegal, like, a dog died or like.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Leah]

Or they're, like, doing something weird when the dogs are sedated. I don't know. Like, I thought that's where we were going with this.

[Kale]

Well, that's all she wrote, folks. I don't know if we're gonna give any better advice than that.

[Leah]

Sorry, I don't have better advice. I hope that y' all have happy holidays. I hope that. And if you guys have any suggestions for the Kale holiday, love that. Let me know.

[Kale]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Leah]

On that note, we'll see ya.

[Kale]

Love ya.

[Leah]

Love ya.

[Kale]

Street with all the best movies. The longer days are brutal. So is your feeling Pluto TV stream Pluto TV stream Pluto TV for free. Stream blockbuster hits like 21 Jump Street Ted, the Expendables and so much more on Pluto TV stream now pay.

[Leah]

Never.

[Lauren and Chandler]

Hi, I'm Lauren. And I'm Chandler. And we're the hosts of Pop Apologist podcast. A weekly podcast devoted to celebrity gossip, Hollywood deep dives, Real housewives, drama and anything and everything. Taylor Swift. We're two sisters who make no apologies for our love of pop culture and the fact that a listers might mean more to us than each other. Join us on your favorite podcast app every Wednesday for pop apologists. Pop Apologist, your new favorite sister and celeb podcast.

[Kale]

What do you think makes the perfect snack?

[Leah]

Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

[Kale]

Could you be more specific?

[Leah]

When it's cravinient. Okay, like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am, pm Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at am, pm.

[Kale]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

[Leah]

Well yeah, we're talking about what I.

[Kale]

Crave, which is anything from am, pm.

[Leah]

What more could you want?

[AMPM Announcer]

Stop by AMPM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience ampm. Too much good stuff.