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Kale
Hello, good morning, good morning, good evening, good day, good night to my karma roos.
Leah
It's snowing here. Actively snowing and sticking. What about you?
Kale
It is not snowing here. It's cold. I did break. It's 22 degrees outside. I went for a walk this morning with Bex.
Leah
Love that walk.
Kale
Down to the mailbox and back, which is a long trek. A long trek. And he did great. He was like, loving his life. I mean, like, oh, stop.
Leah
Oh, my God.
Kale
Stop it. But I will say we had a little bit of a rough night last night. I think he might have been a little jet lag. He didn't, like, nap well yesterday he was pissing me off.
Leah
Yeah, it'd be like that sometimes, you.
Kale
Know, and it makes it so much harder because he's so good. So we don't deal with a fussy baby often. And so it was just like, holy shit, I'm going to lose my mind.
Leah
Yeah, no, I completely understand that. That's what I think that we were sort of talking about that yesterday when I was like, you know, sometimes having like a difficult child will really, really just change the way you look at motherhood.
Kale
So.
Leah
And I never know, like, so when you have a really, really good baby and you're used to that, and then they have a bad day or like a bad couple of days, and you're like, I can't do this. Like, because you're not used to it. So you're like, I can't do this. Or on the flip side of it, it's like, you know that they're good all the time and you're like, oh, like, he's usually good all the time. Like, I got this. No big deal. I'm with you. Where it's like, if I lose a good baby now, I have no patience for a bad day.
Kale
It was. Well, I can. Now I fully understand why the divorce rate is so much higher within that first year of having your first kid.
Leah
Yeah, no doubt. No, I don't.
Kale
Like, I. I don't understand how people.
Leah
Have kids, but when I see people, not necessarily you, because you and Leah are, like, good, and you guys got like your little tag team thing going. When I really think about the trenches that are the first, specifically, the first year is all a blur. But then sometimes year two can be tough because toddlers sometimes get up at five in the morning and it's rough. I think that I'm mentally ill to have done it seven times.
Kale
Yeah, I mean, yeah, like, that's crazy.
Leah
I don't Know, like, the first year absolutely.
Kale
Is difficult because how old was Creed when you had Rio?
Leah
2.
Kale
So, like, you've literally never experienced beside, like, since Lincoln, because there is a gap between obviously, Elliot and Lincoln, but, like, you yet to experience life without an infant or a toddler.
Leah
Right now we. It's been two years since I had the twins, and I really feel like I won't get my, like, pink back. I, like, I want. I don't want to age myself. I don't want to, like, jump ahead because I actually love the age that the twins are at. But, like, what type of person will I be when they're five and they're going into kindergarten? Do you know what I mean? Like, when they're like. I think I read something somewhere and it said, like, seven years to, like, fully, like, get through everything postpartum and, you know, get your pink back and whatever. Like, what will that be like when they're in school full time? Because they only go to school for four hours right now.
Kale
Yeah. You know, like, what are you gonna do?
Leah
I want to go to law school. I'm gonna take my lsat and I really want to go to law school. Like, really.
Kale
Okay.
Leah
When they go, because they just started the law program here at a college near me. Before, there was only one about, like, an hour, hour and a half away. Now there's one right here, so.
Kale
Interesting.
Leah
And I would most likely take my, like, I know that there's, like, a fast track and then there's more in depth. It's going to take me a long, long time because I still have after school programs and I still have to podcast and I still have to do all the things. So it might take me five, six, seven years to graduate, but I want to take my lsat. I want to go to law school. I want to see what that looks like.
Kale
I just had this thought that came through my head, and it has to do with what we were just talking about.
Leah
Okay.
Kale
I need you to buck up and either create your own holiday because you won't. Like. Because I'm thinking about when all of your kids are, like, older, married, with their own kids. You need to have a special day where you get. Have all of them for something. Like. So you need to create, like, a family, like a Kale Family Day, and make it, like, special for your family so that ongoing. Every year, they. You have a day that, like, you have a dinner, you make some sort of tradition so that when you have grandkids and all the things, they have a day to be Excited for where they get to see everyone.
Leah
And it's like, mandatory. Have to be there. You know, when I was growing up, like, and I don't know if anyone else experienced this, but when I was growing up, Thanksgiving, until I was, like, 15, I don't remember what, how old I was. I was a teenager. Was at my great grandmother's. Okay. Nobody missed it. Like, there was. It was like, an unspoken rule. Like, it wasn't like, oh, we're doing this this year. Like, we'll see you next year. It wasn't like that. It was like, when my great grandmother was alive, nobody, not even Boozy Susie would miss. Like, all the siblings were there, you know, and then my second cousins, my mom's first cousins, Everyone was there. Like, nobody missed it. And, like, now it feels like holidays are whether you have traditions or not. It's like, more, like, optional.
Kale
Yeah, I would agree. That's why you need to make a mandatory.
Leah
But maybe not associated with Christmas. And when you said that, the first thing that came to mind. So some years, Elliot, me and Lincoln have done vision boards the first week of January. It would kind of be cool to do it on, like, the first weekend of January where it's like, we're setting the tone for the new year. What we want to see as a family, what we want to see. You know, what do the siblings want to see with each other? I kind of love that.
Kale
Or.
Leah
Or the other thought that came to mind was if we did it before Christmas, not associated with Christmas, but sort of like an end of the year recap. But that could get kind of morbid. So maybe we'll start the new year.
Kale
Yeah, I think the new year's a good idea because, like, Christmas gets fuzzy with, like, are we traveling for the holidays? Are they going to have partners that they're going to travel for? So, like, if you always have it the first weekend of the new year, like, there you go.
Leah
I love that idea. And I want to think of. I'm gonna ask Chat. Actually, you're a better chat GPT girly than me.
Kale
Yeah.
Leah
Can you ask the. Can you ask Chat GPT? What do you call your Chat Sam? Can you ask Sam a character in the book that I'm reading. Can you ask Sam later creative names to call it? Like, yeah, sometimes we say Lowry land Kale in the chaos. Like, we need, like, a good. Like, it's gonna set the tone from the new year. We could do vision boards, have a dinner.
Kale
Yeah.
Leah
And just kind of, like, honestly just manifest for the year a Family day.
Kale
Like. Like either you could play charades or like a game that, like, everyone can be involved in.
Leah
Yeah. I love that idea. Thank you for that. That's great. You're welcome.
Kale
Literally triggered. It was like a zap in my brain.
Leah
No, I love that. And I. I think that is. That's gonna be so cool. Like every year we do this. I love that I'm gonn it. And he's gonna be so excited. But I wanted to ask you if you knew because Leah's in the medical field or maybe it's just supposed to be common knowledge. Like fever dreams are a real thing.
Kale
Like when you have a fever.
Leah
Yeah. Did you know that was real?
Kale
I mean, dreaming is real. So like.
Leah
So Lux and Creed didn't go to school yesterday because they had flu, like, symptoms. Becky, when I tell you they did not move. They were in their own places. On the couch in the living room. I you not. They did not move. I knew they were sick because they did not move all day and all night. So they slept there too. Lux. I get into bed for the night and my. For those of you listening, my bedroom is on the main level, so it's attached off the living room. Luck starts screaming for me. He's. I come out in the living room, he's full blown sobbing. And he's telling me how vivid this nightmare was with the fire and the people and the whatever. And he's like looking around the room and he's like, no, it was real. It was really like. I felt so real. Goes to sleep, same thing. I get back in bed, come back out to him screaming, same thing. So I look it up because I. I remember fever dreams. So I look it up and sure as yes, because I guess the body's temperature and like fighting off the thing changes the things in your brain and causes you to dream, like, more vividly. And I felt so bad because I had no idea. But long story short, his fever broke and now he does not have a fever. So that's great.
Kale
I didn't. I guess I did realize I'm just like such a vivid dreamer. Like, typically that I'm trying to think if I've ever been sick and had crazy dreams. I probably have, but that makes me sad to think about, like, him crying.
Leah
Oh, my God. And they were like big. Those big crocodile tears. They were big. And I just felt so bad because it's like, you know when you wake up from.
Kale
Crocodile tears were fake tears.
Leah
No, crocodile tears are real. But there's. They're like fate. Yeah. I guess the emotions, I don't know. Whatever. That's not what I meant. They were just like big droplets. But I had fever dreams. Now that I like, think about it. When I had Covid the first time I was having crazy dream because I had fevers.
Kale
Yeah. What do you dream of?
Leah
I don't know. It's always weird.
Kale
Like what?
Leah
I don't know. Like one time I had a dream that my best friend from high school, Ariel, was chasing me with a heroin needle to like stab me with the heroin needle.
Kale
Oh my God.
Leah
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Sarah
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Sarah
Hey, this is Sarah. Look, I'm standing out front of a.m. p.m. Right now and well, you're sweet and all, but I found something more fulfilling, Even kind of cheesy, but I like it. Sure you met some of my dietary needs, but they've just got it all. So farewell oatmeal, so long, you strange soggy.
AMPM Announcer
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Kale
I. I had therapy the other day.
Leah
Huh.
Kale
And I was talking to her and she. I said something like, what's the worst that happens? Like, I die. I was like, oh, I guess that's not the worst. And then she said something like, you always like, talk about death like that. I was like, don't most people? But she's like, like, not. Not really. She's like, but we'll get. We'll get to the bottom of that some other time. Because we were like talking about something else. But like, do you think of death as worst case scenario or. No.
Leah
Me?
Kale
Yeah. Like when you're in a situation or like you're like, oh, I want to go here or something like, oh, but like, someone might die.
Leah
I have always had really like a dry sense of humor about death. Like, oh my God, I'll just kill myself. Or like, oh my God, I'll just jump out the window. Like, I didn't.
Kale
You know, maybe we're just too traumatized girlies just trying to get through the world.
Leah
You can I tell you about someone that I. That is okay. You know. You know who Corinna Fulgary, AKA Rose is, right? Like everybody's comfort creator. If you are crying or sad, go watch a Corinne Fulguri video, right. I have a new comfort creator who I'm in love with and I want to be like her. Okay, we are talking about Peter Thomas Roth. The guy who owns Peter Thomas Roth, like the skin care. His son Ryan. Ryan Roth. Also love the name. Love the alliteration, if you will. I don't think that's alliteration. Anyways, Ryan roth films his 102 Hungarian grandmother on the Tick tock.
Kale
Is she the one with the teeth?
Leah
She has fake teeth. Yeah, like veneers. She is so magical and I love her and I love that family. And I don't know what I need to do to be a part of the Roth family. I. But I'll do it.
Kale
Why don't you just reach out?
Leah
First of all, their team reaches. Like, they send me stuff all the time. So it's like, what is it going to take to collab with Grandma Roth?
Kale
I think that you should. I've. I haven't been having really great experiences on TikTok lately. My, like for you page just hasn't been making, you know, like, sometimes. I've talked about this before. Sometimes you have like a solid scrolling session where, like, you're just giggling and you're like, oh, this is fun and funny. Maybe just because I'm being like a Grinch right now and just like, life is not my favorite. Maybe, like, Tick tock's just not that enjoyable for me. But I just feel like I haven't had a good scroll. But did you see the interview with Jennifer Lawrence and how she says that she has, like a secret Tick Tock account that she uses to, like, comment and, like, she'll get in fights with people. Not about her, just like on random Tick tocks. And she said that someone was like, how old are you? Like, like, and like, commented back to her, you do that.
Leah
Wait, I have heard of people having second Tik Tok accounts and like, growing a second Tik Tok account to make more money.
Kale
I mean, smart.
Leah
I just got the cutest little picture of Rio in the snow through the school app. You have to see this.
Kale
Oh my God. D. I feel like he's grown so much.
Leah
Oh, my God. He's him and verse and I just. And they're at such a fun age. Also, I. I want to tell everyone that I am trying new things in 2026. Obviously posted a video of me with a camera and I was going to try to do photography. I don't think that that's gonna work out for me. So I did buy. I purchased a Cookbook at Walmart.
Kale
And.
Leah
And I would like to tell you the reactions that I received from buying said cookbook.
Kale
I feel like we'll keep going.
Leah
So I texted my friend Twizz and he said, a cookbook. You just wanted something to read. And then I get a text from my friend Kelsey, and she said, damn, Kale, I forgot to tell you. Link said, quote, I'm so glad my mom bought a cookbook. And I guess she said, he was so upset the other night, had me weak. And my friend Tiffany goes, what's for dinner? And Kelsey goes, dino nuggets, I literally think. And so tonight, actually, I'm not gonna lie to you, I saw this teen mom on Tick Tock and she has two. She's 17 and two kids, she lives on her own. And she made chicken cutlets and jasmine rice with cilantro and lime. And I'm like, if a 17 year old teen mom of two can do it, she's already off to a better start than me. And so they had a text twiz. And I was like, hey, like, is this right about how to make my chicken cutlets? And so went out and bought chicken cutlets this morning because I'm gonna make chicken cutlets and jasmine rice with cilantro and lime just to see if I can do it. And so I'm gonna start really small. But I don't have kids this weekend, so it's gonna be a lot of trial and error this weekend. And back to you with the result.
Kale
And then maybe if you get good at it, you can, like.
Leah
Could you imagine cooking with kale like a cookbook?
Kale
No, I don't think you need a cookbook.
Leah
But no, you took it too far with that idea.
Kale
I just don't know if you'd be able to, like, come up with your own dishes, you know?
Leah
Oh, yeah, no, I. This would be like replications of stuff that I would see. You know what I mean?
Kale
Or like your favorites. Like Kale's favorites, maybe like a kid's cookbook.
Leah
Lux and Creed came home from their dads this week. And the playroom, we had company and the playroom was a disaster. And a lot of times people will leave my house without getting up after themselves and whatever it is what it is. So Creed goes in there and he comes back out and he looks at me and I go, 100 bucks. You clean it When I send you the video of the job he did. And he has not. He has not stopped reminding me that I owe him 100 bucks.
Kale
Okay, did he Clean it good.
Leah
Rebecca. I was shooketh. My five year old cleaned this playroom as well as he did. I'm about to send you the video. You're going to be shook. You're going to be like, oh my God, no way. I was so impressed. And he took this video himself. Okay. He's so proud. And then he told me this morning, you have to go to the bank. He did an amazing job.
Kale
He did so good. And you could tell he's just so proud of himself.
Leah
He's so proud of himself. And I'm like, honestly, like truly the cutest thing.
Kale
That's crazy. I love that kid so much. What is on my list? Oh, I switched around my top eight. What?
Leah
What? You switched around your top eight? Like your PIN conversations?
Kale
Yeah, that is my top eight. I switched them around a little bit. I was feeling like a little like angry at some people and just like disappointed in people and so I switched, I switched them around. You're still there.
Leah
How many pin conversations do you have? Nine.
Kale
Six.
Leah
Six. I have nine.
Kale
I don't know if I want, I could add three more but I don't.
Leah
Know if I want to see my first row. Like my first three is mom's house group chat, Elliot Lincoln. So they're my first and then the 6 under are like my friends conversations, you know. Yeah.
Kale
I don't have kids that have phones yet, so maybe it'll grow when I have if there's more children in this house. But anywho, the top eight has changed and I just feel like, you know, life after having a child is really hard.
Leah
Yeah, it is, it's really hard and it's, it's ever changing and the group, it's gonna for you especially because Bex is so young. You know, it might be okay for a little bit but then once he starts like, I don't know if you put him in like a Sport for at 2 or 3 years old. Like that was introductory. You're gonna start meeting other moms there and then through school, playcare and daycare and all the things. And so some of those friendships are going to change. They're going to shift and some of them are going to be very surface level and some of them are going to be deeper than you anticipated. But the one thing that I'm struggling with right now, sort of in that same realm is that like I don't have any friends that have kids. Rio Link. Rio versus Valley's age. And I make new friends when they start sports because I'm so used to like my group. Hey, Leah.
Kale
Hi.
Leah
Hi. Happy beans. Two days in a row. Did you go for a walk this morning?
Kale
He did walk.
Leah
He was going for a walk. Yeah. Who is it? What are you doing? Take a ride on my tractor? Anybody?
Kale
Yeah, it's his. His cheeks get rosy when he gets tired.
Leah
Oh, really? I've seen the eyebrow thing, but not the. He's very happy for being tired.
Kale
Yeah, well, yeah.
Leah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kale
All right. Say bye, Bex.
Leah
Bye, Becks. See you later, love bug.
Kale
Bye.
Leah
Later. He's so happy. Oh, my goodness.
Kale
I see you.
Lauren and Chandler
Hi.
Kale
Hi. I can understand not wanting to make.
Leah
New friends, but even for you, like when you say that your friendships with motherhood are changing and they're hard and you change, like, what do you mean?
Kale
You know, it's. It. I don't even think it's my friendships that are changing. I think it's like me that's changing. And so. So, like, you're tired. You. You don't have your own time anymore. So, like, I'm more of a miserable person. So, like, I don't enjoy things. I don't enjoy spending time with people because I'm just, like, kind of miserable. I just feel like all of my problems would be solved if I just lived on a commune.
Leah
What is a commune?
Kale
Like, if I lived on a piece of land with all my friends.
Leah
Oh, like a compound.
Kale
Yeah. Isn't that the same thing?
Leah
I didn't know what a commune was, but I know what a compound is.
Kale
So commune. Like, imagine if we. Imagine if I lived in Elijah's house and Elijah didn't live in Elijah's house.
Leah
Oh, our life would be great because we could help each other out and it would be like not saying you don't have a village, but like. No. Yeah, but like, you. We would have it. That's so funny that you say that because the book that I'm reading, they literally, during COVID there was two couples that each have two kids and they literally would, like, help each other out because they live very close to each other. And so they're just like, help each other out and like, give the parents a break. And I, I think when you become a mom, like, your breaks become everyday things that are not actually breaks. So, like going to work, going to the grocery store, like, those are not breaks.
Kale
No. And I'm like, counting. I like, I try to. And I'm a project based person. So, like, I'm constantly doing things and like, I can't do anymore.
Leah
Because you're like, you're Always busy with the baby. Yeah, I get that. I. I actually, really, like, remember that time I wanted to come celebrate your birthday and I couldn't because there was a double header and I have 1200 kids, and it's. I had FOMO so bad, and it's. Obviously wouldn't change my kids for the world, but it also makes it very challenging to be a human being.
Kale
Yeah. It's just that maybe. Did I tell you about how I was at the bar, I went out with my friends for the weekend?
Leah
No.
Kale
So I went out with my friends. One of my good friends, her mom recently passed away, and we wanted to, like, give her a little bit of a boost. And so I drove down to Cape May and we went out. We, like, day drank and went out. It was fun. But I met this person at the bar, and she was talking to me and she was like, oh, you know, me and my husband are. We travel a lot. We do a lot of things, but, you know, we're getting older. I think she was like, 37. She's like, so we're, you know, it's. Or get off the pot. Like, do we want to have kids? And I was like, do you and your husband enjoy the lifestyle you live right now? She's like, yeah, we, like, love it. They live in Philly, all this stuff. And I was like, don't have kids. Do not have kids. I was like, I could not imagine having a child. When I was in my era of, like, going and traveling and doing a million things, and all my friends were going out, and every. Everyone around me was like, I had a child when everyone was, like, an old person already. Right. Like, we all just want to be in our house and sit on our couch and. Yeah. And so now we're just like, I don't know. I just can't. If you enjoy traveling and enjoy your life, I just can't imagine, like, a child coming in and just. Anyway, I'm salty right now. Don't listen to me. If you want to have a kid, have a kid.
Leah
No, but, like, I think that's why so many people are choosing not to have kids, you know, as early as they've been having them or. Or really at all.
Kale
Yeah, it's. I, you know, I just feel like people don't talk about it enough.
Leah
Oh, they don't. Or. Or we do talk about it, and it sort of just gets, like, swept under the rug. And, you know, Elliot tells me all the time that he does not want children. He never really liked babies to begin with. But selfishly, and I know this is going to sound crazy, maybe controversial, I have looked him dead in the face and said, then don't have them. Like, you are like, you're about to be 16. You literally don't have to have children. And if you change your mind later on. But like, as a mom, I low key hope that my kids either don't have kids at all or they have kids when they're like, way older. Do you know what I mean? And I'm not saying that to be like a dick. I'm saying that because I want them to live their lives to the, to the fullest. Like, I want them to be able to go travel and worry about coming and going as they please and, like, know that they always have a place at my house if, you know, times get tough. But like, to think about them having kids and like, I don't know, like, I just, I love my kids so much and I don't know what I'll do without them. But I also am, like, I would be perfectly fine and happy for them if they did not have children.
Kale
I agree.
Leah
Like, isn't that such a crazy, like, thought?
Kale
I don't think it is. Because when you have kids, everything changes. Like, and people, I don't know, people, it's just such a weird, taboo topic because everyone's life is so different. And some people thrive in parenthood, I think, unless they just lie. I don't know.
Leah
I mean, I feel like I thrive in parenthood, but it's also very, very, very difficult for me. Do you know what I'm saying? And the dynamic that went, it's not the number of kids, but after Creed having three kids, like, the babies, like, I cannot do things the way that I used to anymore. And I maybe because, I mean, maybe I could. But.
Kale
I will, however, say one caveat is seeing my guy friends in parenthood is like a silver lining. Like, it's really cute and special to see, like, my guy friends become fathers just because it's just like this soft and like, delicate child that I watch them hold and care for, which I think is really beautiful. And I feel like most of my guy friends are doing well in like, this new parenthood. But what do I know?
Leah
How does Leah feel? Is she sort of like, with you on, you know, how challenging it's been, or does she have a different point of view?
Kale
I think that we're like, in different. I think we're on the same page, but like, in different ways too, because she's dealing with different things. Than I am because she's dealing with the hormones of breastfeeding. She just got her period back. The hormones of, like, giving birth and, like, her body changes and, like, the effects that it had on her body and all the things. So I think that we're both just battling different things. But I don't know, maybe she enjoys it a little bit more. I don't know. It's getting better, but it's just like.
Leah
And don't be too hard on yourself, though, because all of these feelings and thoughts and things, they ebb and flow. Like, you might feel completely different next week and. Yeah, I don't. I just want you to give yourself some grace. I don't want you to beat yourself up over it. Because parenthood in general, like, there are ebbs and like, there are periods of time that you are gonna love and having a supportive partner is helpful. But there was a quote I read, and it was like, you know, there are so many, like, beautiful parts of motherhood, and sometimes if you don't have a supportive partner or you have a really difficult child, like, the really soft moments that you should cherish forever are sometimes ruined. So I think the silver lining here to be a little bit like you is like, how lucky are you that you have, like, a supportive partner to help get you through this? And so don't. Don't beat yourself up over it.
Kale
Yeah.
Leah
Normal how you're feeling.
Kale
I think I'm, like, pretty self aware to, like, know it. Know that too. But even like, my other, like, my friends Morgan, you know, Morgan and Amanda, like, we're just like, what the is going on?
Leah
Oh, are they feeling the same?
Kale
Yeah, well, yeah, they. Yeah.
Leah
Another silver lining that you have. Well, that are going through the same. What about your sister? Does she kind of feel the same too?
Kale
Yeah, I think so. But that's what I mean. Like, I just, like, cannot. Maybe I just, like, was ignorant or blind to how people were around me that were having kids before I had kids. Right. Like, I never realized the struggles of it. And maybe it's like you have to live it to be able to understand it kind of situation too.
Leah
Do you remember, obviously you remember Peach My Honor from my wedding? There was a time where Javi was deployed and her boyfriend was out of. Her ex was in rehab. And so we got really, really close and she used to come to my house. I had Elliot and I was pregnant with Lincoln and we would cook together and like, basically raise Elliot together. She was always really good with kids. And then there came a time where Javi and I moved to Delaware, and while he was deployed, she never really came to see me. I would always have to go up north to see her. And we got into it and I was like, I. That was one of her arguments was that, like, she couldn't just pick up and leave to come down here. And I was the one that had two kids. And I'm like, I have two kids. Yes, I understand a two hour drive isn't that big of a deal, but it. But it literally is, like, yeah, on some days, sure, it's no problem, but on other days it's like, no, it. Like, no, we don't have anything going on today, but we don't have enough not going on to drive the two hours to go be there and to go see you and whatever. And, like, that was really challenging because she obviously couldn't understand. And it. Ultimately, we. She made her choices when Javi and I got divorced, like, who she was gonna be friends with, whatever. But, like, that was something. Trying to, like, explain that to someone who did not have kids. It was very hard.
Kale
Yeah.
Leah
Have them. You get it.
Kale
I feel like I def. Like, I definitely go through, like, guilt periods too, of, like, not being there for my friends more that had kids when I didn't have kids. And. But I just, like, I know from my. Like, I don't expect that of people that don't have kids right now. Like, I don't expect them to understand, like, all the different layers of life that are, like, just being lived and being trying. Like, trying to survive. But that's what I mean. Like, if I. If I lived closer to anyone, like, I don't have any really friends in my town. Right. Like, I don't have any neighbors that are my, like, friends of mine. So if I lived close, like, I. If I could just imagine, if me, Amanda, Morgan, just because those are the ones I was talking about, like, lived next to each. I'm about to move to Delaware, honestly.
Leah
So come on, Morgan, me, we're all here.
Kale
So I just, like, I'm like, such, like, a popping person. Like, I love to just pop in people's houses.
Leah
Taylor's here, I'm here, Morgan's here. We all have babies.
Kale
Yeah.
Leah
Come on.
Kale
I know. I'm hoping Carson and Kelsey move to Blairstown soon. They don't live too far. They're only like 25 minutes from here.
Leah
But, like, how far does Amanda live?
Kale
Amanda lives, like, 40 minutes.
Leah
So kind of tough sometimes, I'm sure.
Kale
Yeah.
Leah
And with just like, everyday life.
Kale
Yeah. Like, it's by the time I get off work, it's like, I got an hour and then I have to start getting bedtime routine and all the things. I don't know. I just gotta figure it out. I gotta figure out. Just gotta figure it out.
Leah
Honestly, I think we'll get a lot of encouraging words and a lot of feedback for this episode, so I think that should be helpful.
Kale
And also, it's really fucked up that, like, no one talks. And I don't know if your experience of this won't. It won't be similar. So apologies, but no one talks about the morning of the relationship either. Like, me and Leah don't even. Like. Like, we are two separate humans right now walking through life besides, like, taking care of, like, Bex, but, like, individually. And that just is a result of having a child. And I think that there is an other side to it. I would hope that there is another side. I think that's why else would people stay together. But, like, that's so hard. Like, that part of, like, kind of losing that. I mean, our relationship was like, a huge identity of mine prior to Beck's being here too. So, like, that and the. My friends that I, like, have that I've talked to about it, like, feel the same way. I know that with you, like, Javi was away, so it's like, not in your face. And then you didn't really have that credit.
Leah
No. But I think what you're. What you're describing. I did, you know, with Elijah, like, that's the first person that comes to mind was like, yeah. And we never really had a relationship before I got pregnant, but he's still like, him and I have had conversations where he was the one that felt how you were feeling. Right. Like, after.
Kale
Yeah.
Leah
I just. There was no time for us as a couple, let alone us as individuals, really. It was me as an individual. I'm thriving in my career and he's with the kids. And so that was hard. And so I In. On some level, I understand where you're coming from, and I could see why that would be really challenging.
Kale
It's like. I think it's. It's harder when you have such a solid foundation because you have something to, like, really mourn and miss. Right. Like, yeah. I think people that kind of are in toxic relationships use. And I don't know. So don't, like, come for me on this. But I think they probably use their child as their escape. Right. Because they're not getting that love and attention anyway. So they're like, Using their kid to. To kind of have that purpose in life.
Leah
Yeah.
Kale
But when you had.
Leah
When you.
Kale
That's something that you had with your partner, I think that it just kind of changes things.
Leah
I'm sorry, but to your point, there is another side to this.
Kale
Yeah.
Leah
And I don't want to dismiss how you feel. So I'm here if you need me. No, I really am, because it's.
Kale
No, I. I don't know why I left.
Leah
It was.
Kale
It was funny because sometimes I forgot we're recording a podcast and not just, like, talk. That was one of those moments. So y' all just got my brain dump for.
Leah
For.
Kale
And the holidays are. I'm like, I'm really hoping. I love Christmas Eve. Like, I love what I do that day. So I'm really hoping maybe I need to do some microdosing.
Leah
Yeah, you said that last episode, and I feel like, just do it.
Kale
Yeah.
Leah
Just, you know, it works. You know how to do it. Just do it.
Kale
Yeah.
Leah
Okay. Well. I'm sorry.
Kale
It's okay. Well, I know that I'm not, like, alone in my. The way that I feel. I have a lot of people around me that, like, are new parents that are also going through. And I have people around me that are going through it with, like, a fussy and difficult kid. I couldn't imagine. I literally could. I, like, have, like, I. And, like, from watching my dad, I just have, like, a low tolerance for that. Like, I don't know. Like, I. I get, like, just so overwhelmed and so frustrated that I can't, like, solve or fix something. And I'd, like. I need to learn how to, like, kind of have more patience. I really think I need to start wearing headphones, like, to noise. Just cancel, like, when Bex is having, like, a meltdown, just because, like, it's the sound that, like, I don't mind having to hold him and try and, like, comfort him. But, like, the sat. Like, I'm just like, what the Is going on?
Leah
So maybe that also, like, this sleep deprivation and the irritability, like, all of that comes with it. So, again, don't beat yourself up.
Kale
Anyhow. Let me see. Oh, speaking. I have one other thing about babies on here is. Isn't it so interesting how you, like, learn little things about your kid, though, that, like, no one else knows or no one else would know how to do or. Or no one would. Like, if they're crying and, like, they just need, like, a small little thing to change, like, to. To, like, make them happy. Right. Like, Bex has, like, Certain quirks that he needs, but, like, we're the only ones that know them.
Leah
Yeah, there's. That's like a level of intimacy that like, only his moms would know, you know, and there's.
Kale
You're feeding him and if he like starts getting the tiny bit fussy, it's like, oh, he. You need a burp him. Like he needs to burp.
Leah
Like, you know, but nobody else. Yeah, no, that's really cool. And like, if you guys ever like, have other children too, it's really interesting to see, like, certain things sort of will be consistent and then certain things are very specific to each child, which is really good.
Kale
Yeah, it'll be very, like. It's the thing that I think we. I think we will definitely have another kid as long as things are or our bodies are able to because of using Bex is obviously mine, my embryo, and using Leah's embryo. It'll be interesting to see the difference of the embryo, like, of the embryos and because like, technically they're firsts. Right? Like if. Especially if I'm the one giving birth, like, are we gonna get lucky with two first kid? Like, I don't know.
Leah
I think. Just a quick question though. Like, as the baby of five siblings, do you feel like. And the age difference between you and your sister is what, two years?
Kale
Alex?
Leah
Yeah, two or three years.
Kale
Two years.
Leah
Do you feel like your parents. You got the same parents as her? Because.
Kale
No, we were different kids.
Leah
No, I. Well, that's part of my question because I think when you have back to back kids like Rio and the twins, to me, I had them at the same time. Like, they're only 11 months apart. So to me, I'm the same mom to the groups of kids, if that makes sense. Like.
Kale
Yeah, I don't think so.
Leah
In some ways, some ways, not all. Elliot and Lincoln got the same mom. In some ways, Elliot got a different mom. But then Lux and Creed, in some ways got the same mom.
Kale
No, we weren't. We weren't parented the same. We didn't. Like, our parents didn't have the same patience for like, for each of us, like our kids.
Leah
What, because you were different kids?
Kale
Yeah, because our personalities were like, different. Like, I. Well, I think of like being. Being like almost like a young teenager. Like, I. My parents didn't have to really worry or put any mind towards me because, like, I was always just playing sports and like, not really getting. Putting myself in trouble situations. My sister was like, sneaking out of the house and doing, you know, and doing all the things. And I think when, like, my brother was super annoying when he was little. Like, very, like, he's so smart. So, like, he was just, like, super, like, needy. I guess I was needy, too. I don't know. But, yeah, like, I think that my mom's patience with me was a lot better than my mom's patience with my sister. Or, like, my dad's patience with me was completely different than his patience with my sister.
Leah
How did that affect you, seeing that? Like, often I will think about, like, two of my kids specifically off the top of my head, gave me a harder time when it came, when it comes to, like, discipline. Right. And so. But their siblings would see the differences. So how do you think that that impacted you?
Kale
Looking back, I think it probably impacted my relationship with my siblings more than it did, like, my, like, relationship with my parents did.
Leah
Were your parents harder on any of your siblings?
Kale
Yeah, like, they were definitely. Like, my mom was, I would think, was definitely harder on my sister.
Leah
So did that bother you.
Kale
Or did.
Leah
You kind of understand why?
Kale
And I think it caused friction between, like, our siblings because, like, I was pissed that Alex was constantly causing friction in the house. Right.
Leah
So you were more frustrated with her.
Kale
Yeah. So, like, it affected our, like, our relationships. And then my brother was super standoffish. I don't know. Yeah. So I think that our relationships were affected by the way that our parents treated us differently.
Leah
And do you hold your parents, like, do you point the finger at, like, do you blame them, or do you sort of understand, like, why?
Kale
I have. I definitely have grace for my parents, but I definitely, like, recognize the. Like, we've talked about this before, right? Like, that generation was just, like, not loved by their parents. And so they. Their ability to have that emotional intelligence, like, passed down just, like, wasn't. Wasn't always there. I don't blame them. I, like. I don't hold any resentment towards them as, like, from a childhood perspective. I just. I don't know if there's a way around it. Like, I think that's just the. The result of having multiple children, like, is, ha. Like, each kid is gonna need a different person.
Leah
And traumatizing, though.
Kale
No, I don't think it's traumatizing. I, like, I think that if there is space where, like, you're, like, their feelings are valid and they feel safe and they feel, like, seen and heard. That's what the most like.
Leah
Or the kid getting in trouble. The. The. You're saying, like, seen and heard the other kids or the one that's causing all of them.
Kale
Like, like, at the end of the day, if the kids feel safe at your house and feel like, loved and heard, like, that's what matters. Like, kids are going to get in trouble. Kids are going to do things and, like, they're going to screw up and, like, you're going to have those ebbs and flows of it. I don't, I don't think there's, like, any way around it. So what I'm learning from this conversation is that it just never gets easier.
Leah
No, it doesn't. No, it literally does not. It doesn't get any. The, the challenges and that the ebbs and flows change, the, the types of challenges evolve, but. But it doesn't get easier. It's just a different kind of hard. And so, you know, it's been a learning curve because every year it's like, you know, even as a seasoned mom, you know, I'm still going through all. My first. With my first two, you know, so, yeah, it's, it's challenging. It's just a different type of challenge.
Kale
Yeah.
Leah
Yeah.
Kale
Speaking of, did you see that Australia, I think.
Leah
Yep.
Kale
Is banning social media for kids under 16?
Leah
Yep. And I, I could understand why. I get it. I think that I have, like, a different, A sort of like a different perspective on it because I know how much money is in social media. And so I look at it as, like. Because people gave me a lot of. For starting Instagram accounts for my kids, but genuinely I was like, well, if there is a pop. An opportunity for them to make money at this point and I can hand it over some, you know, someday I want to do that. Obviously things are ever changing, but I.
Kale
Think the age should have been a little lower. I think it should have been like 13 before high school.
Leah
Oh, okay.
Kale
All high school kids have access, but, like, you don't have access prior to high school.
Leah
Yeah, I could get behind that. I could get behind like, you know, once you're. Excuse me, once you're in ninth grade, like, you can get social media. I keep buying that Lincoln doesn't have social media. He doesn't. I, I have an Instagram for him, but he doesn't have tick tock or anything like that. But, you know, at some point he's gonna have to have that. Like, he's gonna have access to it. So.
Kale
Yeah.
Leah
Yeah. I mean.
Kale
It'Ll be interesting. It's definitely going to be like a.
Leah
Hard.
Kale
Hump to get over for them, but I would be interested to see if there's any decline in mental health issues. For, you know, young kids. Yeah, I'm down. I'm down to climb, you know. All right, here we go. Are you guys ready? Thanks for sticking with us. It is now time for Is it karma or is it chaos? You want to read it or you want to read it?
Leah
I can read it. Okay. Hi, ladies. Love the podcast and wanted to ask you and the listener something because I'm in such a moral dilemma. I'm a registered veterinary nurse and not in the US Last year, I lost my job two weeks after a miscarriage. My husband is sick, and I'm caring for him. I also started my own business this year. Oh, wait, hold on. It's an entirely new concept here and never been done before. It relies on veterinarians agreeing to work with me and staying local. They're the two key things I need for my business to work. Anyway, because it's new, I'm struggling to get vets to use my business. One vet, however, has taken the chance on me and agreed to work with me and publicize me. I work for him on Saturdays and during the week, he uses my business. Business is slow, but I know it'll get there, and I'm stubborn as a mule, so I'll stick it out. Problem is, the vet has agreed to use me should. Okay, hold on. The problem is the vet that has agreed to use me should be reported. I've seen some shady things in my time, but what this guy is doing is straight up illegal. And some things are criminal, although not like stealing from people, but taking an X ray of his brother's foot using vet clinic X ray or the X ray machine. Or the X ray machine isn't properly insulated. No recording of D. No recording of dangerous drugs leaving the dangerous drug cabinet open at all times. No recording of batch numbers or exp expiry dates on medications. And the notes are all handwritten by the nurse and not signed by her. She signs all of his things. No prescription labels at all, just handwritten instructions. It's been. It's like being in 1995, not 2025. He's a lovely man, but very old school. And the nurse is very lovely, but again, old school. There are so many things that if they were to have an inspection, they would fail immediately. Talking to the nurse and vet is out of the question. My moral compass and conscious tells me to report him. He's a danger to his staff more than anything, but clients too. He's a good vet, but doesn't follow current advice, protocol, or methods. So I want to report him because it's the right thing to do. The problem is he's the only vet who agreed to use me. If I A, report, he'll definitely know it's me. B, I'll tank my own business with other local vets and other local clients as people adore him. My business wasn't at risk I'd report, but I. And I feel awful that I'm hesitating for my own self, but I'm the only one bringing in any money. I'm caring for my husband and the vet has been very good recommending my business and using me. He's the only one to have taken a chance on me and my business and reporting him will inadvertently be killing my own business and which I need to survive because my life has imploded the last year and I'm only getting back on track again. This is a moment where if I report, it'll be both karma and this is a moment where if I report, it'll be both karma and chaos. But if I don't, it may turn out the same way. Am I wrong for choosing self preservation over the right thing to do? Help lady, because this is a doozy. Thanks again from a stressed veterinary nurse. First, I would like to say, and I don't know because I've never been in the vet industry, or are these some things that you could gently start doing, recording the stuff for him and putting away the cabinets and the prescriptions and things like that. Is that like, I don't know how it works.
Kale
I don't know how it works. I've never worked for a vet before. What a fascinating scenario to be in. What a moral dilemma. I don't know. I guess my thing is, like, if she's never. The X raying of someone's foot, like, doesn't bother me at all. Yeah, if it was more so like they were giving dogs treatments that were illegal or giving them wrong prescriptions to save money. Like, if they were scamming, like, in that way, that would be a little bit more concerning if the structure of, like, process, like, how old is this guy? Is he dying soon? Like, I don't know. If it was me, I would, I would hold out until I had another vet that I would like that accepted. Whatever business it. I don't, I don't know what business you're doing because it didn't say. But I'd wait to see if I could get, like, money, revenue coming in some other way before I made any changes. But if you think that's like a dog or cat or rat or whatever animal you have is going to die because of him. And then maybe, I don't know.
Leah
Hard.
Kale
Hard dilemma.
Leah
Controversial take.
Kale
What do you. What do you think? What would you do?
Leah
It doesn't sound like he's like, I get it. Like, procedurally we're talking. It's illegal. But, like, if his clients and fur babies and fur patients love him and adore him and nobody's been hurt this thus far.
Kale
Mm.
Leah
I'm gonna kind of look the other way.
Kale
Yeah. Especially when your. Your well being is like.
Leah
I mean, if. If talking to them is out of the question and they're that old school, that leads me to believe that maybe a retirement is on the horizon. And if he's been great to you and it. I mean, I'm the type of person that might try to just. It's one of those things where it's like, you do it and ask for forgiveness later. Like, could you go log the expiration dates on the medic doors and things like that? Is that something that you could do on your own? And then gently, just like, if they bring it up, it's like, oh, I'm sorry. You know, this is how I'm used to things. Procedurally. I know you said that not talking to them is. Talking to them is not an option, but I don't know, I just. I would try to do some of those things, and then I'm looking the other way.
Kale
Yeah. Is she. But, like, is she at fault if something does happen? Like, does she get looped into it? I don't know.
Leah
That's. It's karma and chaos, like she said. But I'm here to tell you that, like, if I thought she was gonna say it was so illegal, like, a dog died or like.
Kale
Yeah.
Leah
Or they're, like, doing something weird when the dogs are sedated. I don't know. Like, I thought that's where we were going with this.
Kale
Well, that's all she wrote, folks. I don't know if we're gonna give any better advice than that.
Leah
Sorry, I don't have better advice. I hope that y' all have happy holidays. I hope that. And if you guys have any suggestions for the Kale holiday, love that. Let me know.
Kale
Yeah. Yeah.
Leah
On that note, we'll see ya.
Kale
Love ya.
Leah
Love ya.
Kale
Street with all the best movies. The longer days are brutal. So is your feeling Pluto TV stream Pluto TV stream Pluto TV for free. Stream blockbuster hits like 21 Jump Street Ted, the Expendables and so much more on Pluto TV stream now pay.
Leah
Never.
Lauren and Chandler
Hi, I'm Lauren. And I'm Chandler. And we're the hosts of Pop Apologist podcast. A weekly podcast devoted to celebrity gossip, Hollywood deep dives, Real housewives, drama and anything and everything. Taylor Swift. We're two sisters who make no apologies for our love of pop culture and the fact that a listers might mean more to us than each other. Join us on your favorite podcast app every Wednesday for pop apologists. Pop Apologist, your new favorite sister and celeb podcast.
Kale
What do you think makes the perfect snack?
Leah
Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.
Kale
Could you be more specific?
Leah
When it's cravinient. Okay, like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am, pm Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at am, pm.
Kale
I'm seeing a pattern here.
Leah
Well yeah, we're talking about what I.
Kale
Crave, which is anything from am, pm.
Leah
What more could you want?
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Stop by AMPM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience ampm. Too much good stuff.
Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter
Episode: Snowed In & Spiraling
Date: December 16, 2025
In “Snowed In & Spiraling,” hosts Kail Lowry and Becky Hayter settle in for a candid, wide-ranging conversation about the highs and lows of motherhood, friendship changes in adulthood, and the evolving dynamic of life in their 30s. Against a backdrop of snowstorms and busy family life, they discuss the reality of parenting, maintaining traditions, personal growth, and even weigh in on a tough ethical listener dilemma. Their trademark unfiltered honesty and blend of humor make for a deeply relatable episode.
The tone is authentic, sometimes raw, often humorous, and deeply empathetic. Kail’s directness and Becky’s supportive humor both shine through: they don’t sugarcoat the exhausting chaos of real life, but they also lift each other up and find laughs in the madness.
If you’re in the trenches of parenting, feeling friendship growing pains, or simply craving real talk about modern adulthood, this episode delivers. You’ll walk away reassured that you’re not alone in your spiraling—and maybe inspired to start a new family tradition (or at least finally try that recipe).