You Can't Uneat a Cat

Summary

Podcast Summary: "You Can't Uneat a Cat"

Episode Release Date: October 8, 2024

Introduction

In the "You Can't Uneat a Cat" episode of Karma & Chaos with Kail Lowry & Becky Hayter, host Kailyn Lowry reconnects with her friend Tony Otto to delve into the complexities of modern relationships, particularly focusing on monogamy, infidelity, and unconventional family dynamics. This candid conversation offers listeners an unfiltered look into navigating personal challenges in their 30s.

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1. Relationship History and Challenges

Tony Otto opens up about his tumultuous 17-year marriage to Kevin Deter, describing their relationship as a constant cycle of separation and reconciliation. Kailyn highlights the strain caused by their inability to align schedules, leading Tony to seek updates externally.

Notable Quote:

• Tony Otto [04:16]: "I've never been good with self-control. I don't have any kind of impulse control whatsoever."

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2. Monogamy vs. Open Relationships

The conversation shifts to the concept of monogamy. Kailyn expresses her belief that humans are not meant to be monogamous, yet finds herself fascinated by throuples and open relationships. Tony shares his struggles with monogamy, attributing it to his impulse control issues rather than a lack of commitment.

Notable Quotes:

• Kailyn Lowry [03:38]: "We are not meant to be monogamous, but also be fascinated by this."
• Tony Otto [04:22]: "If I find myself attracted to someone else, it's really hard for me to turn that down or deny that."

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3. Infidelity and Self-awareness

Tony candidly discusses his past flirtations and the emotional turmoil that led to infidelity. He reflects on his lack of impulse control and the impact it had on his marriage. Kailyn empathizes, sharing her own struggles with guilty conscience in various aspects of life.

Notable Quotes:

• Tony Otto [07:15]: "I want to be the bad guy for someone else. Tired of that."
• Kailyn Lowry [08:31]: "I have a guilty conscience eating at me on a regular basis."

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4. Current Relationship Dynamics with Jacob

Tony introduces Jacob, his younger partner of two and a half years, highlighting the age gap and societal judgments they face. They discuss living arrangements, with Jacob moving in partially to resolve parking issues, leading to a unique cohabitation setup with Tony's ex-husband Kevin.

Notable Quotes:

• Tony Otto [43:00]: "Jacob is the most healthy relationship I've ever had."
• Kailyn Lowry [46:17]: "If you're over 21 and he's in his mid-20s, does that change societal perceptions?"

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5. Family and Children's Acceptance

Tony shares how their children have adapted to Jacob's presence, noting that his sons, aged 20 and 23, have become comfortable with him. This acceptance has eased the transition and integrated Jacob smoothly into their family life.

Notable Quotes:

• Tony Otto [48:19]: "The kids had been around Jacob multiple times, and they all get along."
• Kailyn Lowry [48:32]: "It's so organic; they’re really comfortable with him."

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6. Social Media and Privacy in Relationships

Both hosts discuss the challenges of maintaining privacy in their relationships, especially regarding social media presence. Tony emphasizes the importance of keeping personal life discrete to respect all parties involved, especially his children.

Notable Quotes:

• Tony Otto [38:34]: "I never posted anything about Jacob. I just kind of stayed away."
• Kailyn Lowry [39:14]: "Our friendship isn't something I have to post about for it to be real."

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7. Self-awareness and Personal Growth

Tony and Kailyn delve into the significance of self-awareness in personal growth. Tony stresses owning one's mistakes to prevent them from defining oneself, while Kailyn underscores the importance of accepting flaws and embracing authenticity.

Notable Quotes:

• Tony Otto [74:24]: "I've had to own my mistakes so they don't define me."
• Kailyn Lowry [75:20]: "Nobody's perfect. We're all flawed in every way."

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8. Conclusion and Future Outlook

As the episode wraps up, Tony reflects on his journey towards healthier relationships and greater self-awareness. Kailyn reaffirms her support for Tony, emphasizing the importance of authenticity and acceptance in fostering meaningful connections.

Notable Quotes:

• Tony Otto [78:20]: "Jacob shows me new things and teaches me about myself every day."
• Kailyn Lowry [81:26]: "Stop trying to point out flaws in others and accept them for who they are."

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Key Insights:

• Balancing Relationships: Navigating relationships when dealing with past infidelities and current non-traditional arrangements requires immense self-awareness and communication.

• Societal Judgments: Age gaps and unconventional living arrangements often invite societal scrutiny, but personal happiness and mutual respect can overcome external judgments.

• Family Dynamics: Integrating a new partner into a family setting can be smooth when approached organically, ensuring that children feel comfortable and accepted.

• Authenticity Matters: Embracing one's flaws and being honest about personal struggles fosters genuine connections and personal growth.

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Conclusion

"You Can't Uneat a Cat" offers a profound exploration of the intricacies of modern relationships, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness, honesty, and acceptance. Through Tony Otto's heartfelt disclosures and Kailyn Lowry's empathetic guidance, listeners gain valuable insights into overcoming personal challenges and fostering healthier, more fulfilling relationships.

Transcript

[Kailyn Lowry]

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[Tony Otto]

If your day sounds like we need to report ASAP. You deserve Medela. If you've persevered through, you deserve this rich golden lager with a crisp or refreshing taste. Or if you overcame.

[Tony]

Two more rest.

[Tony Otto]

Two more, you deserve this ice cold reward. Madeleine, the mark of a fighter. Quick responsibly. Beer imported by Cracker, Chicago, Illinois.

[Kevin]

All right, y'all.

[Kailyn Lowry]

My schedule has been crazy, and V and I have not been able to align our schedule. So I took this opportunity to get an update from my friend Tony. Let's welcome Tony back to Baby Mamas. First of all, I love your gaming headset.

[Tony]

Oh, I know. I don't have anything else.

[Kailyn Lowry]

I'm backing up. We're both eating snacks. We show up. I saw Jacob. Okay, Tony, welcome back to Baby Mama's. No drama.

[Tony]

Thank you.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Although I think there's a lot of drama.

[Tony]

I mean, there is some of it I've been, like, forbidden to talk about.

[Kailyn Lowry]

By who?

[Tony]

Kevin? He was like, don't talk about my life. I was like, oh, okay. I was like, what's my life do? So we're just gonna. I'm gonna like, skate around it in the most informative way.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay, so. But before we do that, can you give an update on Makema? Just like a generic general, your stepdaughter who is in a throuple. Can we talk about something like, I.

[Tony]

Don'T even know because. Okay, she posted this picture. She had a baby, Right? So now back up. Back.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Yeah, McKema's thre. The other two thirds of the throuple had a baby two years ago. And then McKema had baby number two. But her baby number one.

[Tony]

Yes.

[Kailyn Lowry]

This past year. Right?

[Tony]

Yes. It just turned. He just turned one, I think, a few months ago. So. Yes. So she had a baby. They have two babies between the three of them. You know, the one girl had one and she had the other. And then it's like, I. She posted a picture with her and this other girl, and it was. And I was like, who's this? Like, what happened? And she goes, oh, me. And so, and so are separated. Me and the throuple are separated. And I was like, oh, okay. And then I tried to get more information out of her, and she was just like, I'm fine. And then she said, I'll have to call you. And then she never did. And it's like, I want to be nosy as hell and I want to push for information, but I don't know, you know, I can't. I'm gonna have to, though, because I, it's killing me. I have to know what happened.

[Kailyn Lowry]

It's so interesting because I have been pretty vocal about my stance on humans not being monogamous. Like, we're just not meant to be monogamous. But at the same time, I'm so fascinated by throuples and open relationships that it just, it's like, I believe both can be true. Like, we are not meant to be monogamous, but also be fascinated by this. But it just, it's weird, It's a weird place to be because I feel like. Do you get what I'm saying?

[Tony]

Yeah, I, I, I don't know. I mean, I've always had a problem with monogamy, I feel like, but I don't know if that's like, a person.

[Kailyn Lowry]

In what way? You mean, like, because, like, you never wanted to be monogamous or you feel like there's always cheating involved somewhere?

[Tony]

No, I just feel like I've always been someone who, if I have a feeling like, I need to act on it, and I don't know why. I've never been good with, like, self control, I guess, but that's like, in all aspects of my life, not just relationship wise. I don't have any kind of impulse control whatsoever.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay, so you don't mean, like, you have, you've never really believed in monogamy because of the cheating and that whole thing. You, you're saying that you think that you have, like, a sin impulse control?

[Tony]

Yeah, pretty much. Like, Yeah, I, and if I find myself, like, attracted to someone else, it's really hard for me to turn that down or deny that, regardless of my situation. But then I also think that that has something to do with your level of happiness too, because, like, I mean, there's just so much different in my life right now from, like, the last time I was on here, you know? So I'm in an. I am in a new relief. Well, it's not even new. It's like two years old. Two and a half. I am in a Relationship where I. The idea of cheating is, like, foreign to me, you know? Like, I feel, like, so happy, or not even happy, because he really be pissing me off. That's the wrong word. Like, true.

[Kailyn Lowry]

You can be happy, and someone could also be pissing you off at the same time.

[Tony]

That's true. That's true. Okay, so I feel so happy. Quotations that I wouldn't want to indulge those impulses if I had them, but I don't find myself having them.

[Kailyn Lowry]

And when you were previously. Because you are still legally buried.

[Tony]

Right.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Also, all of y'all lived together, right?

[Tony]

Yeah. I mean, we'll get into this. I'll explain it. It's very weird.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Two years into that, would you say that you were potentially entertaining the idea of cheating or, like, indulging in your impulses?

[Tony]

Into what? Into, like, with James.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Into your marriage.

[Tony]

Oh, let me think. No, Maybe. Yeah, probably. Because that's probably two to three years. Maybe.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay.

[Tony]

That's probably like, the first incident of something happened.

[Kailyn Lowry]

How do you feel about getting on this podcast and even talking about that? Because, like, that takes a lot of balls to, like, come on a podcast, like, a public forum, and be like, I was thinking about cheating two years into my marriage. And, like, you own it. Like, you're obviously not proud of it, but, like, at the same time, you're like, okay, but that was true.

[Tony]

Yeah, well, because I feel like at this point in my life, I just. I don't give a shit anymore what people think about me. You know, I've always cared so much, and now it's like, I know that people who have these feelings or who sometimes act on them, I know how villainized, like, the whole thing is, and with reason. I understand cheating is a terrible thing. It destroys lives, you know, but it's also a big part of. I feel, like, the human condition to where these things happen. You know, sometimes you have feelings that you don't know what to do with, or sometimes you find yourself acting out on things that you never thought you would, and then you're made to be, like, this bad guy for the rest of your life, you know, And I don't necessarily think that that's fair. I think that there comes a time when you have to own what you do, and, like, you know, you apologize for it. I mean, you make peace with it, and you kind of have to let it go, because you can't let a bad something you did kind of hold you down for the rest of your life or make you feel bad about yourself. The Rest of your life.

[Kailyn Lowry]

I guess my question to you is, and maybe you don't know, because you said that you struggle with impulse control. I also struggle with impulse control in other areas of my life. But when it comes to feelings for another human being and. And just to, like, narrow it down even further, like, reciprocated feelings. When one party is in a relationship, how does one. I. I guess even when you're not in a relationship, say that you. You meet someone. You're. You're in a place in your life where you meet someone, but it's like, just, like, really bad timing, and you can't commit to this person because maybe you have kids that you need to focus on, and if you. If you entertained this person, you would be, you know, leaving your kids kind of in a. In a spot where they need you more or something like that. How. I don't, to this day, really understand how humans just in general are supposed to not act on those things. Like, that has been a really hard thing for me to understand. How. How do you control that?

[Tony]

It's true. I mean, but then at the same time, it's like the pe. You. There are people who make it sound like, well, you just don't. You know, you just. You just don't. And, like, I get that. But at the same time, like, I don't. Because it's like how. When you're, like, urges or your basic. Like when the voice is in your head, not in a crazy way, you know, like a. In a, you know, internal dialogue. Yeah, your internal dialogue. Yes. When your internal dialogue is like, we need to do this constantly. Or, you know, like, when it's all you can think about. I don't know. It's like, when you have that really bad itch, how do you not scratch it? I. I just. I haven't mastered that yet. I don't know, 43 years, and I still gotta scratch these itches, man. Be getting me in trouble, but not.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Cheated on your significant other in two and a half years.

[Tony]

No, and I don't feel like I could.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Has it been longer than that? Because I thought that you and Jacob got together around the same time that Elijah and I got together.

[Tony]

We have been together since Valentine's Day of 2022.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Yeah.

[Tony]

So this Valentine's Day, it'll be three years.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay, so, yeah, two and a half years. That makes sense.

[Tony]

How long have you been with Elijah?

[Kailyn Lowry]

Shortly after. Yeah, shortly after that. I want to say, like, March.

[Tony]

Yeah. Because it was. Okay, so here's like, another big curveball he's significantly younger than I am, which was a thing that we bonded over because Elijah and Jacob are the same age, I think.

[Kailyn Lowry]

I think Jacob is younger than Elijah.

[Tony]

Of course he is.

[Kailyn Lowry]

How old is Jacob?

[Tony]

Jacob is 25.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay. Elisha is 26. So same age, really.

[Tony]

Jacob will be 26 in March.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay. And then Elijah will be 27.

[Tony]

And just for those keeping score, I am 43.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Are you 43 already?

[Tony]

I am. I just turned 43 in July.

[Kailyn Lowry]

I just don't feel like you're. That.

[Tony]

I don't think. I don't at all. Like, nothing about me feels that old.

[Kailyn Lowry]

I just didn't realize that you were 10 years older. Like, that just feels a little. Because, like, you and I, when we first met, we were on the phone every fucking day, all day. We called each other for everything, texted each other for everything. Like we were ride or die from two different coasts, Right? Like, you were west coast, I was east coast, and, like, we just made it happen. But I don't feel like you've ever felt 10 years older than me.

[Tony]

Maybe that speaks to my immaturity, maybe.

[Kailyn Lowry]

That maybe we're both stunted. Because I also feel like I have co signed things that maybe I shouldn't have.

[Tony]

No, no, I don't. I wouldn't say that. I mean, you've. I feel like you've known of all my indiscretions in life.

[Kailyn Lowry]

And you know what's crazy is that I have lost friends for my indiscretions across, like, whatever. Not like cheating, but just in life. I have literally lost friends because they don't agree with what I do. But I just don't feel like that is a real friend. I feel like you should, like, the whole. You are, who you surround yourself to a certain degree, but what kind of person would I be if I was like, I can't be your friend simply because you do something that I wouldn't do or I haven't done. You know what I mean?

[Tony]

Right? I mean, like, obviously there's a limit. I mean, like, murder, you know? Like, you know, like, that's probably.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Probably. Depends on the circumstances.

[Tony]

Yeah, it definitely depends on the circumstances. You know, even then, I mean, am I so ride or die for you that I'm like, bury a backyard. Bury a body in the backyard for you? Depends on the circumstances. Probably.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Oh, no. Because here's the thing. I'm not. I'm not burying a body necessarily. But, like, if you tell me why you did it, I might be like, okay, like, we can get through this. But, like, we might. We should probably just, like, turn ourselves in. But I'll still be there for you, you know?

[Tony]

That's fair. That's fair. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's fair.

[Kailyn Lowry]

The way that my guilty conscience eats at me on a regular, just, like, across the board. I just can't. Like, I. Right before I got on this recording with you, I went to record with the dude dads, and I was telling them about how I went to the Post Malone concert, and I was saying how, like, my kids wanted to go, but they were with their dads. And, like, I couldn't make that happen. And so I felt bad, like, even telling them that I went. And so these girls had asked me for a picture at the concert, and I was like, unfortunately, like, I can't take a picture with you because if it hits the Internet and, you know, my kids see it and then they didn't know. And then I ended up telling Isaac that I went because I was like, I can't. Like, the way that my guilty conscience was, like, just eating at me. I just. I can't. So, like, if we're going to do. That's why I feel like you and I are alike in that if we're going to do something, at some point, we're just going to own our. And like, be. Get to get to the point where we're at peace with it because we don't have. Why you want to live with a guilty conscience? Like, let's clear our conscience.

[Tony]

I agree with that. I also. There is also something to be said. I'm making myself sound really bad here, but there have been times in my life where I'll have done something I shouldn't have done. And then the actions of someone else in my head, I'll be like, see? And that's why I did that to you when you don't know anything about it, because that's who that's right there. But they don't know that I'm thinking that. You know, it's like, you know, it's like they'll piss me off or something. And now I feel really bad about myself. Like, when I'm sitting here saying these things that I'm thinking that, like, that sounds terrible. I promise I am not a bad person. I am just a good person who does bad things.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Sometimes I just feel like people like you are very seasoned in life. And so you've seen both sides of every single scenario.

[Tony]

Yes. Okay, that's fair.

[Kailyn Lowry]

And that puts you in a position to give either really Good advice or really bad advice?

[Tony]

Yes. And I am, I like to think that I have a good mix of both. I give the good advice and the bad advice. I don't know, I like. Let's go back. Let's, let's rewind like three years ago.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay.

[Tony]

Okay. So my marriage to Kevin Deter was deteriorating very fast.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay, how long? How. Wait, we have to say how long y'all had been married.

[Tony]

Okay, well, in this month, this month we will be legally married. 20 years. So three years ago, 17 years. Right. So let's go back now. My marriage had always been like very up, very down. You saw that, you knew that, you know, there was up mirrors, down. I just think ultimately, I don't know if it was we grew apart or we were never really that compatible.

[Kailyn Lowry]

So you guys know what I don't miss at all? That vicious week before your period when I feel like I'm crawling out of my skin, I absolutely hate it. The skin just breaking out and all the cravings, oh my gosh. Like I'm trying to get fit and I don't have time to be eating and, and, and indulging in all my cravings. Right. And so that's why we need to manage our PMS with Estro Control. Estro Control is a formula developed by Happy Mammoth. It's a supplement company dedicated to making women's lives easier. And I know a lot of our audience here at Baby Mamas is women. And so Estro Control contains science backed herbal extracts that help support hormonal health, especially in women who suffer from pms. So if you're like me, you get like, the skin breakouts, the headaches, all the things this will make that way easier. And the way Estro Control eases PMS is actually really interesting. The ingredients help support the liver and that's where all of our hormones get processed, especially estrogen. And Estro Control was created to help women feel like themselves all throughout the month. So it's not just two or three weeks out of the month. So for a limited time, you guys can get 15% off your entire first order@happy mammoth.com just use our code Baby Mama at checkout.

[Tony]

The more I think about it, he's an amazing person, he's a wonderful father, he's a good provider. It came to the point where I had to realize, and this was also maturity for me, I had to realize that I was comfortable and I stayed too long in a situation that wasn't really benefiting me or the other person out of comfort, you know, out of being scared and comfort. And so it just hit the fan to where I'm like, okay, we really can't do this anymore, you know, because you deserve more. I don't want to constantly be the bad guy in someone else's story. Tired of that. Been doing that for a long time. I want you to be happy. Because there were times, you know, over the years where me and Kevin separated, got back together, you know, and it just. You know, we do that. It would be good for a while, and then it would start falling apart again. And, you know, like, it just got to the point where it's like, okay, no more. You know, like, this is it. We have to just go our separate. Well, I mean, as separate as we can. I still freaking live here. But with your boyfriend. With my boyfriend. I mean, that's okay. We're getting there. We have to start at three years ago. Okay, So I. So that happened, and then I feel like it's been, like, a wild three years because I dipped my foot in the lesbian pool, which is something that.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Was never on my friendship card. Like, with my friendship bingo card with you. Never in a million years would I have ever predicted that you would have even dipped a toe into that pool.

[Tony]

Neither would I. Like, for my whole adult life, when I thought about the idea of ever being with a girl, it's like, oh, as a teenager, I kissed a girl here or there. I had little, little, little dips, you know, like, okay, you know, you kiss girls in high school. You do all that stuff, you know? But in my head, I was always like, gun to my head. If I. If someone said, you have to perform, like, oral sex on another female, would you do it? And I was always like, no. You know, like, absolutely not. Can't. Just couldn't be me until it was. Until it was. Until I was there doing it for, like, three hours straight. Fake eyelashes falling off, just crazy, crazy pants. And I'm just like, you know, stop. Get to the car, Hand sanitizer all over the face. Just a wild time.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Wait, did you tell me that? I don't know if you sure?

[Tony]

Because I'm pretty sure I did. So this was someone that I had worked with, and, I don't know, I had a dream about them, and one day I just woke up, and I was like, I have a severe crush on this person. And then from there, it kind of snowballed to where I really wanted to act on it. And this person was just not a good person, you know, that. I know that everyone that knows me Knows that not a good person. In hindsight, I don't want to have anything to do with this person. But for that short months, I was obsessed, you know? You know that I was obsessed with this person. And when the time came to where we actually got down to it, I was like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do this.

[Kailyn Lowry]

I'm going down on the cat. But wait, did Kevin ever find out about this or did I told him about it?

[Tony]

Like, not. Not right then. I didn't. But in retrospect, I told him about it and I was like, look, this happened. Like, you know, I'm just a whole different person now. You know, you can't go back from something like that. You can't. I don't know how vulgar. But you can't uneat a cat, you know, like, no, you cannot eat a cat at all. You can't. And why? Tell me why. So this is the first and probably last dip in that pool. But I had to find the one lesbian who doesn't reciprocate that for the most part. So I got all the way into this eating stuff for like three hours. Like, when I tell you three hours straight. That is not an exaggeration. I was just, like, looking back on it now I feel tired.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Tony, what are you talking. Tony, Tony, Wait, so you're saying she didn't reciprocate to you, like, the oral?

[Tony]

No.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay, so here's the thing is, like, that's not the only lesbian that's that way. So, like, lots of women that are. So it's. It's not only you, but, like, that has to be frustrating. And it was. So it was this three hour rendezvous, the only time that you went down or was. No, no, it wasn't. That was just like the longest time. Okay.

[Tony]

No, every time I did it, there was like probably three separate times. It was like a multiple hour thing. And I'm just like, is this normal? Because that's never been something I liked done on me to this day. It's not my favorite thing. Right.

[Kailyn Lowry]

But.

[Tony]

But I'm thinking it's because I probably never really had it good. Maybe. Okay, that's what everyone says. Like when you say you don't like something, everyone's retort is always. You've just never had that, you know, like, okay, I mean, that's fair. I probably never have.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Yeah.

[Tony]

Never for three hours. I've never had anything for three hours. But as I'm doing this in my head, I'm just thinking to myself, like, I really. I'M getting tired, like, you think? And then I. I start to get up and stop, and she'd be like, no, don't stop. And I'm just like, okay, cool. So I'm gonna keep going, you know? And then, like, I would look at the clock, you know, and I'm just like, okay, you know, is it my turn? No, not yet. Okay. And, like, when I tell you, like, this is when I had eyelash extensions, everything. When I looked in the mirror after this, I looked like a mess. My eyelashes were falling off. They were, like, plastered to my face. It was messy. And, like, now that I think about it, kind of. You know how when you have that one experience with someone and in hindsight, you look back on it and it kind of grosses you out? Or you're just like, oh, I can't believe I did that. Like, that's where I'm at with that right now.

[Kailyn Lowry]

But of her, though, and not because of the actual act or because.

[Tony]

Yeah, definitely because of the person.

[Kailyn Lowry]

She was just, like, a horrible human being, like, truly through. And, like, there was no silver linings in that situation.

[Tony]

No, not even one. Like, there was no redeeming qualities. No. I mean. And then, like, you know, like, after that ended, you know, one of my friends was like, oh, yeah, she was just completely using you for, you know, money or this or that. But it was my stupidity because I offered it. So, I mean, it is what it is. So, like, I lost money. I lost hours of my life. I lost the ability to say, I've never done that, but that's kind of a gain. So we'll put that in the positives. Now I can say I've done that.

[Kailyn Lowry]

So now you thankfully got the fuck up out of that situation and you met Jacob. Jacob. Or did you get back together with Kevin to try to make it between her and Jacob?

[Tony]

No, there was never really a reconciliation with Kevin. It went straight from that to. But see, like, the whole situation with her, that was me and Kevin hadn't officially said, we're done. At that point, we just kind of were not in it. Like, it was. It was over. We just hadn't put a name to it yet.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay.

[Tony]

And so before things started with Jacob, I had the conversation with him, and I was like, listen, we have to end it. Like, it has to be done, you know? Like, I. This has been happening, you know, I know that. You know, I'm not happy. You know, I haven't been here, you know, I know you're not happy. I know. Like, I'm making you actively unhappy? Because I'm so unhappy that I'm, like, mean to you, like, all the time, you know? So we're fighting all the time. I'm making you unhappy. I'm unhappy. I don't want to do this anymore for either of us. I want us both to be happy. And I was so starved for some positive reinforcement after the situation with this girl. It's kind of like Jacob filled that void in a way to where so I worked with him as well.

[Kailyn Lowry]

So, I mean, does he also know her?

[Tony]

Yes, he did. He hates her.

[Kailyn Lowry]

So Jacob knew. I'm gonna call her your ex girlfriend. Although it probably was more of like a situationship.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Kailyn Lowry]

So all three of you knew each other?

[Tony]

Kevin didn't know either. Oh, us three? Yes. I was thinking including Kevin in that, but yes, Kevin the situationship and Jake and. No, me, the situationship and Jacob. We all knew each other. We all worked together. Jacob was in a different department, different area.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay.

[Tony]

But. So I'm going through it with this girl. She's like, you know, my self esteem is like, kind of at the lowest point it's ever been, you know, I just lost all this weight. I'm thinking I'm untouchable to an extent. Like, look at me. I'm so beautiful. I'm so this, I'm so that. And then here comes this person to humble me, you know? This girl's like, not so fast. You may be skinny, but you ain't nothing to me, like, in my head, you know? And so then there's this guy at work who. I mean, and I'm gonna say this. It's kind of funny. I thought he was a serial killer because J. Cute. Oh, yeah, because he drove this really weird car and he would just walk into work with his head down. Big, tall guy, walked to the back, didn't talk to anybody, just. And I was like, that dude's got heads in his freezer. Right? But at the same time, did you.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Tell him this is how you felt?

[Tony]

Yes.

[Kailyn Lowry]

What did he say?

[Tony]

He was just like, so what? I was a serial killer because I didn't like any of you. And I was like, well, that's rude.

[Kailyn Lowry]

But don't put me in that category. You could not like everybody else, but you did not like me.

[Tony]

Right? And I was like, well, that's rude. First of all rude. But I'm. Then again, I'm calling him a serial killer, so that's rude. But yeah, so he was like, super nice. And I don't even. This is like A point of contention still, almost three years later, who started flirting with who? And I'm like, well, you're not my type, so I wouldn't have started flirting with you. In my head, this is like. And I say this to him, like, I genuinely did not. I was not attracted to you, so why would I have been flirting with you? Because he blames me. I blame him. And so I was like, you started it because you were flirting with me and you were being nice to me. And after everything that I had just gone through, I kind of, like, ate that up. And so I decided to, like, give you a chance. And. But he says, no, I was flirting with him. I don't remember. So I was drinking a lot, whatever. Well, it is what it is. So I gave him a chance. It was only once I found out his age, I was like, okay, so this is only going to be like a flame, right? So this will be like a. I just got out of a long marriage, just got out of this really toxic situationship. Let's just create more hectic shit, you know? Let's just have another fling with someone I work with, because that sounds like a good idea. See, I'm not really good with the decision making at all the time.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay?

[Tony]

Like, so I'm not gonna admit that my decision making process is deeply flawed, but so it was like, okay, so let's just do this. All right? So I do that. And that happened for the first time on Valentine's Day. And it's like we've been together every day since then.

[Kailyn Lowry]

So at what point did you tell Kevin about Jacob recently?

[Tony]

Because up until then, he knew we were apart. He knew we were doing our own thing, but he was like, you live your life, I live mine. I don't want to know what you're doing. I'm not telling you what I'm doing.

[Kailyn Lowry]

But staying, like, living together under the.

[Tony]

Same roof, because we made the agreement that I would stay here, especially while Adriana, my daughter, was not 18, was underage. And so I've been living here. I mean, I have my own room. We don't live. We don't cohabitate, like, in the same room. So it's. It's very separate, like, you know, as much as it can be. I never really saw him that much. I wasn't here that much at the time. You know, I was either always before I was with the girl or once the thing with Jacob started. I was always with Jacob. And so.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay, but run. Run it back really quick because I think for people I've talked about on my podcast about, like, being. Staying in unhappy situations, and I don't think it's a one size fits all. Like, there's a reason why certain people have. They feel like they have to stay in these situations or these, like, unhappy relationships or marriages. When you told. When you and Kevin had the conversation that you guys were done and then you were, you know, you had already been with the girl and now you're with Jacob, what was the. Did you guys just like, it was like cold turkey were done or like, where was there was. Were the feelings so mutual that there was no fighting about? Because, like, personally, I don't think that there is a world where I would be able to cohabitate in the same home, like, coexist in the same house as my ex or like, almost X. Because one, I'm a highly emotional, like, person in that way. Like, I don't think that I would ever fully be able to move on with somebody else if I'm living in their house. So, like, what was that like? And how did you guys decide, okay, I'm gonna move into my own room? Or was. Were you already moved into your own room before all of these conversations were.

[Tony]

Oh, yeah, no, I was already in my own room. I've been in my own room for a long time because I'm weird and I'm weird about the way I sleep and I need kind of like to control my environment. So I have like two industrial strength fans. I need it to be pitch black. I can't hear snoring. I can't hear background noise. I don't what's wrong with me. But. So I had been in my own room. Okay, okay, so. But the thing about cohabitating with a relationship, that it's kind of like, let's give it. Let's. Let's say the relationship was on, like, life support for a very long time. So. And in that situation, it's like all the people make peace with the fact that it's kind of gone, but it's still kind of there. So once you pull the plug, it's like there's like a little bit of sadness or coming to terms with, okay, now it's really over. But there was all this time to kind of make peace with it because it had been gone a long time. You know.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Let'S talk about skims really quick, because I did go to a jelly roll concert and wore my blacks skims T shirt. I'm obsessed with it. And as someone who hated wearing bras, I was surprised at how much I absolutely loved skims. I have their panties, I have their bras, I have their clothing. I absolutely love skims. I love wearing the Fits Everybody T shirt bra from Skims. It's the best bra that I have, I think. And as a mom, my boobs have changed so much over the years. You guys know that's no secret around here. And and if you guys want to try skims, you guys can shop skims [e-mail] now available in 62 sizes from 30A to 46H. So that's a huge range. And if you haven't yet, please be sure to let them know that I sent you. After you place your order, select Podcast in the survey and select our show in the drop down menu that follows. You'll see Podcast as an option and you can click Baby Mama's no Drama or type out Baby Mama's no Drama.

[Tony]

Okay, so I know it's about to be that time where everyone comes out and they're like New Year, New Week. But with Peloton, I think it makes it a lot easier to Feeling motivated, getting into your fitness life. They have variety and flexibility that can't be beat. Peloton honestly offers a wide variety of classes to fit every season of your life. So whether you're just starting out or looking for a challenge, you can train at home, at the gym or wherever with your all access membership.

[Elijah]

Each workout is a mix of fun and challenges. With strength, cardio and yoga classes, you'll always find something to keep you mo motivated. Plus lose yourself to the music that moves you. They have everything from reggaeton to merengue and you know the music says the vibe and the tone for us for everything. Especially when it comes to working out. They have really great instructors that keep you super pumped and motivated, which for me, I mean I love working out with a trainer and Peloton is a really great way to do that every day in your own home. Whether it's their playlist, classes taught in Spanish or personality, there's someone to match with whatever mood you're in. So whether you need 10, 20 or 45 minutes of you time to sweat or get you grounded, Peloton provides flexibility with daily, on demand and live classes that fit your schedule and life. So find your push, find your power with pelotononepeleton.com parents when you visit California.

[Tony]

Childhood Rules if you don't remember how awesome childhood is, just ask yourself, what would kids do? Let childhood rule your family vacation. Start planning your trip to the ultimate [e-mail].

[Kailyn Lowry]

So, okay, so basically just staying to the point where you wouldn't. You wouldn't be sad if they moved on.

[Tony]

Right.

[Kailyn Lowry]

And I feel like I typically leave before we're ever able to process that. And then a lot of times I've found myself in situations where we never grieve it properly. And then while we're still grieving on both ends, not just my end.

[Tony]

Right.

[Kailyn Lowry]

We're both still in that, like, not quite over it phase. And then we meet somebody else, both of us, both parties, and then that's where it gets sticky. And so for you, you, like, stayed until that life support situation that you're talking about, and then you're staying, saying staying. And now it's, like, fully done, but, like, you're still cohabitating, but now it's okay to move on. And y'all are, like, siblings or just, like, friends or what?

[Tony]

Yeah. Well, now at this point where we're at, I would say that our relationship, me and Kevin's relationship, is probably better than it's been since maybe the very beginning in terms of he's like a best friend slash brother to me. So I know that he has my back, I have his back. It's a really weird and unconventional situation. Like, most people who hear it, they're just like, well, that's weird. And then, so the idea of Jacob. So when he did find out about Jacob from me, he had already known, like, because of Instagram and stuff like that. Like, a lot of people on Instagram, when I'll post sporadically here or there, they're like, oh, where are you? Where have you been? You don't post anymore. It's like, I had that really, like, that high where I was on the show, like, three years ago on the podcast, and it's like, then I was very present, and then I kind of went away. And that's when I started with Jacob, you know, it was like. So I kind of. My life got to where I was just kind of living my life with this person, and I kind of went away from social media. I. You know, and I. Because I was being respectful of Kevin, not wanting to know my situation. I've never posted Jacob. I've never posted anything about that. So I felt like I couldn't really post my life in a way, so I just kind of stayed away.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Yeah. And once you get to that point, like, it very different, but I, like, don't post the babies a lot. And I've just gotten so used to not posting them, that it doesn't feel weird to me in any way, shape, or form. It just feels normal to not post them. And so when I post. I posted them the other day, and I was just like, this feel. Like, it almost feels weird, too. Personally, I would imagine it's sort of the same for, like, this relationship, because you've entered this relationship two and a half years ago to the point where you're not really sharing it anywhere outside of, like, if you know me, you know I'm in this situation, or, like, I have this relationship and I'm married, like, whatever. But if you post it on social media, that actually would probably feel kind of foreign.

[Tony]

It would 100%. It would 100% feel foreign to me. And there will be a point where I will. But then at the same time, it's like, I wouldn't say I'm embarrassed about it, but, like, it's just, if you know me, you know me. You're one of my closest friends. You know, I. You know, and this is just for people who will say things to me like, oh, I haven't seen Kale mention you in a while. Are you guys still friends? Like, that's not real life.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Well, that's so funny that you bring that up, because I think that they think the same about, like, Sterling or Bone or, you know what I mean? And it's like, our lives, like, we have all grown up. Right? Like, you've grown up, Sterling grew up, I grew up, Bone grew up. Like, we are. Like, I'm still friends with everybody. Like, it's just. It's very different.

[Tony]

Right. Like, and I just. I. I hate when people ask me that question, and I get it quite often. Are you still friends with Kale? I haven't seen you guys, like, post about anything in a long time. Yes. Like, she's living her life. Like, hello, she's had these three. Three babies. Like, she's living her life. She's happy. I'm living my life. We're in very different places. But, like, still my best friend. Like, still one of my best friends, you know, I'm just. But it isn't for you. Our friendship isn't. I don't have to post about it on social media for it to be real.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Yeah.

[Tony]

You know, like, the last time I.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Saw you came here, you came to visit. I built this house in 2022. Was Rio born?

[Tony]

Yes, that's. So that's when you met Jacob. Jacob met Rio. He dubbed him Mr. Millions.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Mr. Million.

[Tony]

Right, right. Million. Yeah.

[Kailyn Lowry]

So you have met Rio and so, like, you have. We just. I don't remember if we posted about that or not, but, like, it's just so. Things are just different now. So I don't.

[Tony]

Yeah, I don't know. It's like, it wasn't. And it's like, so, like back in the day, right? Like, back. I feel like I'm jumping around so much. Like, back in the day when, you know, teen mom just started and, you know, you were doing stick em all the time, and you would be at my house and we'd be like, oh, let's do a stick em together. And it's like everything was so. It was like, new. New for you, new for me. Everything was like, oh, let's, you know, we have to be as out there as possible, you know, like, oh, my God, I can't believe, like, that we're friends. All this stupid, immature bullshit. And it's like you go through those phases, you know, and then I real. You realize, like, at the end of the day, you're just my best friend who happens to be someone, you know, famous. Barely famous, as you would say. I don't like that word either. Like, look at this. Like, I'm so proud of you. And I have to take this moment. Like, I'm sitting here talking to you. You're interviewing me. I mean, I'm on this podcast, but like, a week ago, you were with interviewing lance bass from NSync. Like, that blows my mind how far you've come. And it blows my mind that I'm even a little bit a part of that, just because I'm so proud of you. Like, and I. And I tell you this all the time. I text you this all the time about how proud I am of you and everything like that. But the moral of this story is I don't have to say it on the Internet for it to be true.

[Kailyn Lowry]

100. And I would not like. To your point, I agree. Like, when I first started the show, or like, at the peak of the show and things like that, like, obviously it was new and exciting for us. Not just me, but, like, my friends, you know what I mean? Like, it was like, different for them too. And so I think, to your point, like, 100%, it was like, new, exciting, like, whatever. But okay, so then you guys came here and at that point, Kevin had known about Jacob.

[Tony]

No, he didn't know.

[Kailyn Lowry]

He didn't know thing. I'm. I cannot believe that it's been three years since we podcasted. I'm pretty sure I've said this on other one of the podcast episodes that you and I recorded. Like, Kevin's like low key hot, like, or was when I knew him. Because I haven't seen Kevin for like what, a lot? Eight years maybe. Yeah, yeah, it's been like eight years since I've seen him. So like, I can't speak to what he looks like now. But like when I knew him and like would hang out with y'all pretty often, like multiple times a year, like, he was hot.

[Tony]

He was something.

[Kailyn Lowry]

My whole thing was like, Tony, what are you doing? But like looks aren't everything. You know what I mean?

[Tony]

No. And like that's the thing too is like Jacob to me and this is like so funny. I love him so much. He is not someone that I would conventionally be attracted to.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Right.

[Tony]

And that's why this is so wild to me. Like every single thing about it is, is weird and wild and different and it's not anything that I have ever experienced before. And I'm going to tell you, like, this is the weird thing is like this 25 year old man has been the most healthy relationship I've ever had. And that's why it works so well. But it blows my mind because I'll see people randomly in groups I'm in because of your podcasts. Like, I'll see people discuss like age gaps and I'll see people like basically trash someone who's in my situation, you know, like, who's my, who's the older person, you know. So let me just, let me just make all this clear. 1. I met Jacob when he was a full grown adult. You know, he was over the age of 21. It was always consensual. It was actually like, I'm going to say I'm going to. On the hill I'm dying on. He pursued me and I, and I did not pursue him. It was only supposed to be a fling. It turned into more. But he is the healthiest partner for me. He makes me happy in a way that I didn't know was possible for me.

[Kailyn Lowry]

What is his relationship like with Kevin? What are their interactions like?

[Tony]

Okay, so once he, so once Kevin found out about him and everything, it kind of moved really fast from there. It was like me and Kevin finally felt comfortable discussing our personal lives with each other. There was no more secrets about anything. There was. And he very quickly, from the start always took like Jacob's side and things like as a joke, like, you know, leave my man Jacob alone, you know, if blah, blah, blah, you know, I Know that you're the problem. You gotta be the problem. You know, Jacob. Jacob's a good dude. Leave him alone. Blah, blah, blah. And so. And then one day, I don't know if I brought it up as a joke or what, and I just said, you know, Jacob could just move in here and, like, pay rent. And I said this not thinking anything, literally anything of it, until this fool who I've known for, like, 20 years was like, all right, you know, makes sense. Sounds legit. And I was like, just like that.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay, makes sense. Sounds legit.

[Tony]

Yeah. Like, how much? Month. Okay, cool. Yeah, sounds good. Let's do it. Like, what the hell? Who are you? Like, who are you? Like, you are not. And that's what I'm saying. Like, this whole situation has kind of, like, unlocked things in people I didn't know existed. And so Jacob moved in a few months ago. And when I tell you I still have my own room, I mean that shit. I still have my own room because I am crazy and I need my own space. I need my own space.

[Kailyn Lowry]

I just literally can't wrap my head around the fact that, like, so from the time that he was like, okay, sounds legit. I vaguely remember you texting me about the situation, like, I think this is going to happen. But then how much time passed between the time that y'all had that conversation? Conversation. Or you, like, made the joke? Had he already met Jacob in person or had he not met Jacob in person?

[Tony]

Yes. So he had met him in person. After he found out about Jacob, I was just like, hey, do you want to do a dinner? Like, you know, our kids, me, Kevin, Jacob? Because my kids had already met Jacob. And I, like, told Kevin in a way without. Because, like, at the time, he didn't want to know about Jacob. So you have to understand that. And I was like, hey, I'm going to take the kids out. I'm taking them out with a friend of mine who is a male, and I'm just letting you know that I'm just keeping you informed. Like, I never did anything behind his back with that and that. And he was like, okay, you know, just no kissy face in front of the kids. And that's what he said at the time. So I'm like, okay. He kind of gets it without me saying the quiet part out loud. He gets what I'm doing. He gets what's going on. And so the kids had been around Jacob, like, multiple times, and they all get along. I mean, they're closer in HDM than I am. So that's kind of.

[Kailyn Lowry]

What was that like for them? Did they care? Did they ask questions?

[Tony]

It's. It's always been super organic. Like, they are really comfortable with him, and they all just get along.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Brandon, your oldest son is 22.

[Tony]

20. I am 43. Brandon is 23.

[Kailyn Lowry]

He's 23.

[Tony]

Yeah. So that's a little bit weird. They could have been in high school together. They weren't, but they could have been. Brandon at first, was the only one who was like, but why?

[Kailyn Lowry]

And I was.

[Tony]

And I was like, I don't know, man. Like, I don't. I don't know. Like, it's just. It's something that happened, and it works, and I'm happy, and it's not what society would deem appropriate, but I just don't care. Like, I want to be happy right now, you know? And I always tell Jacob, I don't know how long this is going to last. Like, I always. I don't like to talk. I always like to live in the now with him, because as much as he tells me that he loves me and he wants to be with me and everything, I am not comfortable basically saying, okay, this is, like my forever. Because I don't want to take away his chance at what I would consider a normal future.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay, and by normal future, you mean, like, a more traditional relationship with babies, whatever that looks like. And potentially not living with someone that is legally married to someone else.

[Tony]

Right. I mean, that's not always going to be the case. Me and Kevin have our end game in place, you know, to where this. The legal aspect of this ends, and we all go our ways. So that's not. That's not the case. That's not the problem. The problem is that I just don't know if I'm at a place in my life where I would want to start over with kids. And I know that I'm physically capable of still having kids, but I don't know if that's a place where I want to be. But now there's a part of me that's like, you do want to give him a baby. But, like, do I want to, like, do I want to go through that? My youngest child just turned 16, you know, so do I want to start completely over from scratch? I don't even know if I know how to do it.

[Kailyn Lowry]

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. We talk about therapy a lot on this show, and I want to remind you that BetterHelp is a fantastic option. You guys can do so much growth in therapy when you're ready through BetterHelp and I have been someone who has dated my therapist, for lack of better words, and have gone through several therapists. But what's great about BetterHelp is that they make it easy to switch therapists at any time. So if you don't feel like one is a good fit, you're able to switch. I'm sure you guys can think of a time recently where you felt like you weren't necessarily your best self or your full self. Or maybe you were hiding behind some sort of facade. But October can be your season of, you know, wearing masks and costumes only for Halloween. And go to therapy and let go of all of the facades, all of the masks, all of the things, right? And like, truly commit to being the best version of yourself. Because masks and costumes should really only be for Halloween. I know that sounds cheesy, but it's so true. I have personally benefited for therapy for over four years. It's been a long, long road and it's not linear. But I love the work that we do in therapy. And if you guys are wanting to learn helpful coping skill skills, positive coping skills, I promise you having these tools will empower you to be the best version of yourself. If you're thinking about giving therapy a try, definitely try Better Help. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to fit your schedule. All you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched to a licensed therapist. And like I said earlier, you can switch therapist at any time for no additional charge. Take off the mask with better help. Visit betterhelp.com mama drama today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp. H E L p.com mamadrama building a.

[Jacob]

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[V]

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[Kailyn Lowry]

I mean, there's definitely gadgets and baby items that make it easier than when you had your three children. What's really interesting to me about all of this is like, you and your stepdaughter were going through this at the exact same time, like with the sort of similar and sort of different. And so that's like, really interesting. Okay, so you have the conversation with Kevin. You guys go to. Did you guys have the dinner?

[Tony]

Yeah, everything was fine.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Dinner, everything. And then. And then did you guys revisit the topic of conversation of moving Jacob in?

[Tony]

Yes. It was just like. So I. We agreed upon it. Jacob is the one who was like at first. Hard note.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Right. So you made the joke to Kevin and didn't fill Jacob in. And so when you were like, I need to know the details here.

[Tony]

Yeah, no, so I made the joke to Kevin without talking to Jacob about it and. Because I'm like, well, he's just going to, you know, go along with the program, you know, and then he didn't. At first he was like, I'm not living with your husband. Like, And I was just like, I get that. But not really my husband, I mean.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Is very much.

[Tony]

So. And I was like, but you, you know the situation and it would be nice to like, you know, kind of be in our own, you know, be in our place and. Which isn't really our own place. But so then. Okay, so let me add where Jacob was living. This is such a stupid. Sounds like a stupid first world problem. But it was a very real problem for us. There was like, no parking was. I. I don't. I don't really understand this neighborhood. Like, every area was red. Like, my car had been towed before for parking somewhere. There was like, no parking. And it's only gotten worse. One day he had parked somewhere where he had parked all the time. And he came out and his car had been towed. And he was just like, to him, that was it. Right? I'm. I'll move because I'm that frustrated him. I'm like, I'm. He's like, I'm not living here anymore. Let's do it. And Then within a matter of weeks he was in here.

[Kailyn Lowry]

And then it's just. They've just been like a dynamic duo over there or like long. They have like a bromance. Like, what? What is that?

[Tony]

Like, I don't even. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of borderline bromance, honestly, because it's like, I will be me. I'm dramatic as hell. And I'll say stupid shit sometimes just to get a reaction out of people. I'll tell him, you know what?

[Kailyn Lowry]

Kudos for the self awareness, truly, because I mean, you could just be in fucking denial. But I feel like we, the both of us, do not get enough credit for how self aware, like, we know what's going on. Oh, yeah, people think that. Oh, Kayl's just dramatic. Oh, Tony's just dramatic. No, we know, we like, we know that.

[Tony]

Like, it's a problem, but I mean, it's who I am as a person right now. Come back in a year, you know, we're working on it. I don't know what to say.

[Kailyn Lowry]

I don't know. You've sort of been like that for my entire friendship with you. So, like, it might be who you are, which is perfectly fine.

[Tony]

But you know what? I'm going to say it's actually gotten worse because I feel like I used to care more about people's perception of me.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay, but now you're like, this is who I am and I'm not apologizing for it.

[Tony]

Right. I mean, like, I apologize for sometimes who I am as a person hurts other people's feelings. And for that I am sorry. But at the same time, at the end of the day, I have to do and say what I need to do and say. Otherwise it just sits there and meets at me. So, like, okay, Jacob moves in. Car got towed. Jacob said, okay, fuck this place, I'm going to move in. And then they kind of. We do like, family dinners with, you know, Kevin, the kids, me. Jacob will sit down to dinner most nights. You know, there's conversations, there's. There was an incident where me and Kevin were having a fight and Adriana was aware and she was really upset. And so Jacob, like sat with her the whole time, like talking to her and just making sure she was good. Like, he's just so amazing in a way. Like, he. And the reason we work so well also is like, you would never know. One that knows him would say he comes off as like a 25 year old.

[Kailyn Lowry]

He's definitely an old soul. He reminds me a lot of Elijah's personality, like, just very chill, laid back. So, like, that's why I actually get really upset when people come for Elijah on social media specifically and, like, say certain things about him. Him or like. Because I'm like, he truly is just, like, a very chill, laid back person. And there's really nothing negative to say. You guys are just, like, saying just to say. And I think I. It reminds me a lot of Jacob.

[Tony]

Yeah, he is. He is like, the chillest person. Like, so we started new jobs just recently, right? We're working for the same company, the same family, just different restaurants. And people will come up to me and they'll be like, so is Jacob just, like, a super chill person? Is he, like, mean? Because his face is always just, like, not, like, expressionless almost. And I'm like, no, that's just who he is. Like, he's just kind of, like, the most chill. Tell him you need something. All right. You know, Got it. Cool. You know, And I feel like with my level of crazy, this is kind of what I've needed my whole life. Because I am not like, me. This is me. Like, and it sounds so. I don't know if I'm being crazy. If you react to my crazy in a negative way, I take that shit personal. Well, you have to, like, let me be crazy or. But if you, like, if I'm mad and you get mad because I'm mad, I'm taking that shit personal. How dare you get mad because I'm mad. I'm. I'm mad right now. You don't get to be mad.

[Kailyn Lowry]

To be fair, though, like, that is, I think, a common problem just in, like, friendships, relationships, all kinds of things. It's like, you're not allowing. You're not being empathetic or sympathetic to, like, my feelings right now. And you getting mad at my madness, that's like, not okay. That's like when you bring. When you go to a. Your partner in a relationship and you're like, hey, like, this action that you did, like, really upset me and hurt my feelings, and here's why. And then they turn around and say, well, you did this. And it's like, but this is not the time for you to bring that up. It's sort of like the same. Do you know what I mean?

[Tony]

Yeah. So that. That was always, like, a big problem with Kevin. Like, Kevin, you know, and he will be the first to say he's not good at communicating. It's not his strong suit. And I am very much someone who I need to be allowed to express myself or say what I'm needing to say without facing a backlash for it, almost. And that's. Oh, that was always an area where we bumped heads, because I would have an opinion of something, I would say something, and he would either take it personally or completely misconstrue it, and it would cause a whole fight, and it was just always not good. So with Jacob, I'll say something. Sometimes I'll say something completely out of pocket, and he'll just kind of roll with it, you know, and he'll just be like, okay. And he's like, well, let's talk about it and figure it out. Get it. You know, just get it out. And we'll move past it. And it's like, why aren't you letting me? Like, why aren't you fighting with me? Like, there are times when I've actually fought with him because he's not fighting with me. Like, I'll be like, sometimes who I am as a person, I just want to fight. And I don't know why I have this, but I was always just like, where's the drama here? Because that's what I was used to, you know? And. And I was just like, okay, so where's the drama here? And it wasn't there. And it's just like, eventually it got to a point where I'm like, okay, so this is, like, maybe this is healthy.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Yeah. I mean, that's what Kati Morton said on an episode of Coffee Combos Podcast a long fucking time ago, and she told me that I need to stay where it's boring. Like, the boring ones are probably the healthy ones, because you're not living in this state of, like. Like the honeymoon phase or, like, the lust. Like, that's where it's, like, good.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Boring, but, like, kind of not. I don't want to say stagnant either. I think I'll have to go back and listen to what her exact words were. I think it was boring. Like, the. The ones that, like, you want to look for excitement, but the thing is, like, looking for excitement together, not, like, this thrill of, like, cheating. So when you. So Jacob lives there. You have your own room. You guys are doing family dinners, having good conversations with the kids. The kids are accepting of this now what? Like, you guys have been living together for how long, all three of you?

[Tony]

Six, Ish months. I want to say.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay, and it's going well. And you guys would.

[Tony]

It's like, well, without. I don't see this. What? I mean, Kevin told me not to put his business out there. So that might have to be once he's in a more accepting place. Because that is like a whole other interesting story. What is Kevin's situation?

[Kailyn Lowry]

Right. Kevin's situation is. Cannot be discussed on this podcast. But for all intents and purposes, for now it's working and for now it's going to stay put until it doesn't work anymore. Is sort of the vibes I'm getting.

[Tony]

Yes. So I will just put it out there. Kevin is happy and I'm happy for him and we are in a very good place with it for now. The plan is that this is probably the next two years.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay.

[Tony]

So the cohabitating, the co parenting, all of that is going very well. And I'm very much a don't fix what isn't broken type person. And this is a situation that when people hear about it, they are like, what, what kind of modern day family bullshit is this? What kind of reality TV show is this? Which reality TV is apropos like that would, this would be a good reality TV show. I mean, if you ever want to co produce, let's get on board.

[Kailyn Lowry]

It's sprinkle that in there.

[Tony]

Just a real quick, just sprinkling that in there. I mean, if people, if this, this episode is going to land one or two ways, people are either going to be like, she's a predator, she's gross, she's this.

[Kailyn Lowry]

And I, I, that's actually not where I saw you going at all. I thought you were gonna say this episode is going to go one of two ways. People are either going to love and accept you for who you are and it works for you. And this like, you're owning your mistakes that landed you where you are now. You're going to make this work or they're going to hate your guts and be like, what the is going on?

[Tony]

Okay.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Situation never crossed my mind.

[Tony]

Well, I feel like people, when it comes to like age gap relationships, people have strong fears for sure.

[Kailyn Lowry]

But I think when you said because I did put it into perspective for me at least, like, obviously, you know, I don't judge you and I accept you for who you are. Like your choices are not the same as mine. Mine are not the same as you and the next person. Like, it is what it is, but I fucking love you no matter what. Right. But when you said that he pursued you when he was a grown adult, I can't. Now that you've said it in that way, I hope that it maybe helps people understand. It's like, okay, because I always make the joke that like, Elijah was born when I was in first grade, right? Like, that's. But I didn't like him then. Like, it's different. You know what I'm saying? And like when people are like, oh, but you know, you were graduated from high school when he was born. And it's like, okay, but I didn't like him then. So I think there is a fine line now if you were, you know, over the age of 18 and he. Or if, if he was in his teens. Because that's the. That's the tricky line for me is like, yes, 18, they're an adult, but like, you're still a baby, right? So, like, right, if he was 18, 19, and you were in your 30s, then I would be like, okay, this is actually not. I'm like, actually not okay with this. But because he was over 21 too, I think you do have to factor in the maturity because everyone is different. One, you know, 21 year old male may not be as mature as the next. And so I think that that can be considered. I also think that you need to consider your maturity. And if you're saying that you don't feel like your age, that needs to be factored into.

[Tony]

Yeah, definitely, definitely questionable. Like, there are some times where I'll be like, God, could they have like, lied on my birth certificate maybe? Like, is there like a huge error? But then let me tell you, girl, like, I will wake up from sleep and my back will be like, Bitch, you are 43 years old. Don't be letting anything tell you differently. Or I'll stand up and like, just turn my head and then everything in my body goes haywire. And it's like, oh, yeah, I'm 43 years old.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Because I have never met a more unique person than Tony Ziggler.

[Tony]

Okay, like, Tony Auto, please.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Tony Otto can never. Okay. Because we're not. Okay. Her husband's last name, Z. So Tony Otto. So the Otto family as a whole, truly.

[Tony]

Oh, yeah. This. We're a bunch. We are someone.

[Kailyn Lowry]

I know your mom. I know your dad. I know your brother. I know your brother in law. I know your stepchild. I know all of your children. The two families together have, like, I don't know how I got up on a reality show before you did, because y'all are the most unique, interesting people I've ever met.

[V]

Hey, girlies. I'm Cody Rigsby. And I'm Andrew Chappelle. We're here to announce our brand new podcast, Tactful Pettiness. Now On Podcast one, we have a lot of opinions. Flip flops in New York City. You don't love yourself. If I'm not seated, I'm not tipping. Do I want to see a picture of your baby?

[Kailyn Lowry]

No.

[V]

If I have to scroll more than 10 seconds, he's not cute. Settling gets you an ugly boyfriend. So we're gonna help you out. We sure are. Because we have the life expertise. We have mastered throwing shade with intention. We are in the business of helping you find and keep your man, and we're here to teach you the fine art of tactful pettiness. Join us each week as we traverse the world of pop culture, chat with our celebrity friends, and show you how to accept yourself without taking life too seriously. Get new episodes of Tactful Pettiness with me, Cody Rigsby, and me, Andrew Chappelle every Thursday on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music, and anywhere you get your podcast. Stay Petty Bestie.

[Jacob]

Building a business may feel like a big jump, but On Deck small business loans can help keep you afloat. With lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to 250,000, OnDeck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business. As a top rated online small business lender, OnDeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs. Visit ondeck.com for more information. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by On Deck or Celtic Bank. On Deck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

[Tony Otto]

After the end of a good fight, you deserve an ice cold reward Medela. You put in the hours, the energy, the tough labor. Because you know, the bigger the fight, the better the reward. Medela the mark of the fight. Brick Responsibly Beer reported by Crown Airport, Chicago, Illinois.

[Tony]

I mean, it's true. There's so much. One day I feel like I'm just gonna have to, like, sit down and tell a whole bunch of stories about my life, my family, whatever. But when I brought up the last name, it isn't even because of the impending divorce when I tell you that I was too lazy to wait at the Social Security office to legally change my last name after I got married. Like, I have never legally been a Ziggler. Like, I have always.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Oh, I don't think I knew that.

[Tony]

Yeah, I have. I never changed my maiden name legally.

[Kailyn Lowry]

But I've only like, obviously I knew. I know your whole family, so I know that you're an auto, but I actually didn't know that.

[Tony]

Yeah, I, so I went when Dylan, who was 19 years old, I went when Dylan was a baby to try and go and change it at the Social Security office. And they were like, oh, it's going to be like a seven hour wait. And I was like, that's a hard no. I'll. I'll catch you guys another time. And I just never went back. And so I just didn't do it. And I. Which, you know what, in hindsight, makes my life a lot easier now.

[Kailyn Lowry]

I feel like so many, so many times, like women, they take on the last name without legally, like, as far to my knowledge, I don't know this for sure, but like, to my knowledge, up until recently, I'm pretty sure, like V. Rivera. Rivera has not actually been a Rivera.

[Tony]

It's. I, I honestly feel like it's just, it's something that is either done out of, like, obviously some women are just like, they can't wait to change their last name. And I have. That's cool, you know, and I, I fully respect everyone's point of view. Like, you know, you can't wait to get married, take your husband's last name. That's so cool. For me, it's always very much just been a formality, you know?

[Kailyn Lowry]

Yeah.

[Tony]

It's just never been like a thing. Like, I am his, I was his wife. I know I'm his wife. The government knows I'm his wife. You know, I don't need to have this piece of paper that says, oh, you know, you legally have his last name. If it wasn't necessary. It's fine. It's whatever. That also, I'm just a lazy person. Person. At the end of the day, I'm lazy. And I. And someone's gonna listen to this and they're gonna like, take all these little things I've said and they're gonna try to like, diagnose me as something. And if that's the case, if you think you know what's wrong with me, please let me know.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Because I've really never met anyone like you. No, but seriously, like, if there's, if there's anything that people take away from this episode, it's that stop trying to point out the flaws and other people that already know their strengths and weaknesses and that already are as self aware as you are. Because I am so tired of people just holding on to these like little tiny one, like one liners and like, take it and run with it. And now that is their entire opinion of like one person. Whether it Be you or me or anybody else. It's just like, can you look at the whole picture here? Like, she's self. Aware. She knows where she went wrong. She knows what works for her. She knows that she's a little dramatic. She knows that they're a little dysfunctional. Like, what do you need? What is there not to. Like, you're being so fucking real and honest. And I feel like you're saying out loud things that people deal with internally every single day, and they will not say it out loud. And they hate other people for being honest and accepting it about them, their own self.

[Tony]

That's kind of how I feel. And that's why I make it a point now that when you do give me this little platform, I try to be as self aware as possible, just so people know. Because I, for a long time, always felt alone in my internal struggles, you know, But I just always like to make sure that I let people know there is not, you know, like, you don't have to fit the square peg into the round hole. You know, like, there are different levels of okayness. You know, you can embrace the problems. If you. If you embrace your problems and, you know, acknowledge them, you kind of take away the power from other people to.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Use them against you 100%, 1,000%.

[Tony]

And I do that with everything. I do that with everything. Like, when people ask me, are you Italian? You know, I'd be like, yeah, like, don't you see my nose? Like, because I have, like this big old Italian nose, you know, I do that with everything. Like, you know, I lost weight. You know, it's like I always. I always make sure, like, I have all this. No one, no one knows my insecurities better than I do, and I would rather own them or joke about them. Like, let's say if I make a comment about something about someone. Not a comment, like a rude comment, but like, if I say something. I made a joke to my friend the other day about her butt. I was like, girl, it looks like. Yeah, like a frog standing up. It's something I always say to my brother. He looks like a frog stood up and put pants on. Like, he's got no butt, right? And I was like. And I can say this because when you take my clothes off, I look like melted ice cream. I just.

[Kailyn Lowry]

I don't know. I just. I feel so much relatability when you talk about stuff because it's just like, nobody. We're all flawed in every way. And, like, whether you agree with it or not, why can't we just accept it for what it is. Like, you don't have to agree with it, but, like, you can still like the person as a whole too. You know what I mean?

[Tony]

And that's what I try. I try to be a delightful, you know, like, I. I just, I. If I can make people smile and just see another side of something, you know, or feel more comfortable in themselves, to where. God. Okay, so maybe I have these thoughts and I'm not alone, you know, then my job at the end of the day is done.

[Kailyn Lowry]

I mean, if anyone listening to this podcast episode walks away from this episode and is like, wow, Tony's like, she cheated. Or she's living with her boyfriend and. And Mary, it's just like, so you're telling me that you've never found someone else attractive ever in your whole life?

[Tony]

Yeah, well, no relationship, obviously. You know, people do different things. Everyone. There are things that some people do that I'm like, oh, I could never do that. You know, it's like, nobody. You can't truly walk. You. You truly can't say what you would do in a given situation if you haven't been in the situation. I guess as human beings, everyone judges. I'll text you some out of pocket stuff sometimes and be like, this could not be me. Like, just because, like, I, you know, and. But people are gonna say that stuff about me too. People are gonna say, I don't care that she's this. I don't care if she embraces this. She still did it. She still. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. And what, like the people that know, in the people that are involved didn't know, the people I've made peace with it with, the people that it affects. Doesn't affect you at the end of the day. Has nothing to do with you. You know, the people that it directly affects are aware. I've had conversations, I've tried to fix it. I've only taken accountability. I've apologized, I've done this, I've done that. I've been the bad guy. I've tried to be the good guy. I've done every single thing that a person can do in the light of certain decisions. So I just choose to not let them define me any. You know, like, I'm done with it. It's over. It's done. That's. It's canceled. What is Joanne the scammer?

[Kailyn Lowry]

I don't know, but did you say you're a scammer?

[Tony]

No, I said, where is Joanne the scammer?

[Kailyn Lowry]

Remember, I. Joanna scammer lives rent free in my head and I that's my Rowan empire. Joanna. Like, what happened to Joanne the scammer? Because truly she a Joanne would have scammed TikTok for all of their funds and made so much money on TikTok all this time. I know I don't know where she is and I used to lay in bed and laugh at her videos.

[Tony]

And we love Joanne the Scammer, but you know what? We're going to go with something else. We're going to go, we're going to say owning up to your mistakes or, or being self aware. Very demure, very mindful.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Joanne the Skimmer. Very mindful of her.

[Tony]

Very, very, very, very get the bad Joanna scare. Very, very cutesy. Very melted ice cream. Very.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Okay, so last question I have for you would be if the situation that you are in now, if you're thinking the time frame is somewhere between now and the next two years, like foreseeable future, could you see a world where you legally divorce Kevin and legally marry Jacob or would you. Is marriage as a whole off the table? You think?

[Tony]

I. Okay, so there's like, that's, that's like a, a topic of contention that I deal with within myself every day. Because yes, I love Jacob. Yes, I want to be with Jacob. Yes, I would marry Jacob tomorrow if I felt like it was a good choice for him. I tell him all the time, let's just give me five years. Like I want five of your years. And then that gives you enough time to go on and find your forever and give me the time to have you and love you and love each other. Because I just, I feel like I am not the best choice for him long term because of our age difference. But at the same time, it's also not my choice to make. It's his choice whether or not he wants to stay with me, whether or not I'm enough for him. So I am going to say probably not legally married. But with every passing day with us just getting stronger with the level of commit, dedication and love and I don't. Just everything that he's shown me and taught me about myself, I can't say no. Because every day that passes, I feel like I love him in a different way. He shows me new things. He teaches me all of the time. He's just so. I'm not gonna say no. I do feel like, God, I really don't want to get married again because, you know, I think, I think everyone who gets has a failed marriage kind of feels that way in a way, they kind of just don't see always the, the, the point behind it. Like, like, I'm happy with you. We're happy we're doing this. Why do we need the piece of paper? Like, the piece of paper didn't save did my last relationship. It isn't going to do anything different for this one, you know, but at the same time, I would love to marry him. And like, I don't know. I can't say I don't know if it's going to happen.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Definitely. It depends on the day you ask me for you. I'm sure. But. Okay, well, I hope that we get an update sooner than three years, so maybe we'll circle back when there's more updates to be given. And if you do want people to follow you on social media, where can they find you?

[Tony]

Oh, Jesus. So my Instagram is Tony Marie. T O N I Marie M a r I e724. That's my Instagram. When you do listen to this, give me a follow or send me a message and you can, you can send me hate. I don't care. Honestly, it won't bother me. I mean, maybe we can even have a discussion. If you want to have a discussion. I'm open to that. So when you listen to this Tony Murray, 724AMA Ask me anything.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Anything. Thank you, Tony Otto, for all of these updates. Tell Jacob and Kevin I said hello and thank you for coming on. Baby Mama's no drama.

[Tony]

Thank you for having me.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Pluto TV is a place for movie fans like me and TV fans like me. They've got something for everyone, and it's free.

[V]

I love free. And I love Jersey Shore.

[Kevin]

For me, it's the Godfather.

[V]

SpongeBob SquarePants. I am Patrick. Patrick is me.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Oh, Forrest Gump.

[V]

Come on, Criminal minds.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Solving crime after bedtime, whatever you love to watch. Pluto TV makes it easy with thousands of free movies and shows.

[V]

Pluto TV stream now pay.

[Kailyn Lowry]

Never.

[Jacob]

Building a business may feel like a big jump, but on deck small business loans can help keep you afloat. With lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to 250,000, OnDeck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business. As a top rated online small business lender, Ondeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs. Visit ondeck.com for more information. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

[Tony Otto]

If your day sounds like we need.

[V]

To report asap.

[Tony Otto]

You deserve Medela. If you've persevered through, you deserve this rich golden lager with a crisp or refreshing taste. Or if you overcame.

[Tony]

Two more rest.

[Tony Otto]

Two more, you deserve this ice cold reward Medela the market responsibly. Gear Imported by Crowning Port Chicago, Illinois.

[Kevin]

Did you know you can save money with the McDonald's app every single day? Yeah, I was surprised too. Deals every day right at your fingertips. I love a good deal, but the McDonald's app takes gaming the system to a whole new level. Just the other day I treated myself to a ten piece chicken nugget for only a dollar. Yeah, you heard that right. Just one dollar. All you have to do is order in the app and get this. You can grab that deal once a week through December 2nd. The first time I discovered the deals in the app, I was honestly shook. I had to tell my whole group chat about it. And now we're always comparing who got the best app deal of the week plus ordering ahead. Total game changer. Especially when I need a quick lunch or a treat after a long day. So why wait? Save money every day with the McDonald's app. Download it, get those deals and treat yourself. You deserve it. Valid through December 2, 2024 at participating McDonald's offer valid one time per week. Excludes delivery. You must opt into rewards. So go check out McDonald's deals and.