← Kat on the Loose
Kat on the Loose
ASHLEY MADISON - AN INSIDE LOOK AT THE AFFAIRS PARADISE WEBSITE WITH SENIOR DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS ISABELLA MISE
00:46:06
Loading summary
Transcript110 lines
- [00:01]
Mrs. Claus's Younger Sister
Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree.
- [00:03]
Drew Ski
Zoe, this thing weighs a ton. Drew Ski, lift with your legs, man.
- [00:06]
Kat
Santa. Santa, did you get my letter?
- [00:08]
Drew Ski
He's talking to you britches. I'm not.
- [00:10]
Mrs. Claus's Younger Sister
Of course he did.
- [00:12]
Drew Ski
Right, Santa, you know my elf, Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list. And elf, I'm six' three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T Mobile, you can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies, right, Mrs. Claus?
- [00:26]
Mrs. Claus's Younger Sister
I'm Mrs. Claus much younger sister. And AT T Mobile, there's no trade in needed when you switch. So you can keep your old phone.
- [00:32]
Drew Ski
Or give it as a gift.
- [00:33]
Mrs. Claus's Younger Sister
And the best part, you can make the switch to T mobile from your phone in just 15 minutes.
- [00:37]
Drew Ski
Nice. My side of the tree is slipping. Kimber, the holidays are better. AT T Mobile switch in just 15 minutes and get iPhone 17 on us with no trade in needed. And now T mobile is available in US cellular stores with 24 monthly bill credits for well qualified customers plus tax and $35 device connection charge credits and imbalance due if you pay off earlier accounts. Financing agreement 256 gigs, $830 eligible board in a new line, $100 plus a month plan without our PayPal taxes and fees required. Check out 15 minutes or less per line.
- [01:00]
Host/Interviewer
Visit t mobile.com my guest today, Isabella Mies, is the senior director of communications for Ashley Madison. For those of you who don't know, Ashley Madison is the very controversial website for people who cheat. Specifically, Isabella has been working for Ashley Medicine for over six years and she came over to the show to shed light on why more and more people around the world are exploring non monogamy and using Ashley Madison. And the site attracts millions of people. They have over 80 million members globally since it started in 2002. I know the numbers are massive. It is crazy. It's a fact. People do cheat and they do use the site. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm not saying it's right, but it's a fact that it's something that happens worldwide and a lot of people are curious about it. And she was very open in terms of answering all the questions that I threw at her.
- [02:09]
Kat
So if you were ever curious about.
- [02:11]
Host/Interviewer
The subject, if you were ever curious about Ashley Madison, she was super kind, super nice when it came to answering.
- [02:18]
Kat
Everything about it, including how she feels.
- [02:22]
Host/Interviewer
About working for a website where everyone is lying to their spouses and cheating. So I hope you guys enjoy this episode. About Ashley Madison, the inside Scoop and today's episode of Cat on the Little Sex. Dating relationships is made possible thanks to Gold Standard Builders, a licensed general contractor design and construction company in Los Angeles, California, a family owned business, a team passionate about delivering great service, quality and the most important thing, very fair pricing. They pay great attention to every detail to ensure the finished project always meets your expectations. I know it's so hard trusting someone when it comes to remodeling our homes. And these guys always, always do a fantastic job. So if you've been thinking about redoing your kitchen, maybe redoing your bathroom, getting your backyard ready for the summer, these are the guys that get it done. And this is the best part. They offer free consultations and free estimates. No catches. So if you are in the great Los Angeles area, give them a call, 1-800-469-9189 or send them an email. Infooldstandardbuilders.com Check out the beautiful projects they do. Lots and lots of photos on their website, goldstandardbuilders.com and get your home remodeled looking amazing at very, very fair, affordable prices.
- [04:19]
Kat
Isabella, welcome to Cat on the Loose. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's a huge pleasure to have you.
- [04:25]
Isabella Mies
Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to chat.
- [04:28]
Kat
I am very excited as well. And of course we have a million questions because this is kind of like a controversial cloudy subject. So I really appreciate that you're here to clarify everything. We're going to talk about Ashley Medicine. So to get started, for those who don't know what it is or maybe for those who think they know or have an idea, can you explain in a nutshell what it is and who is it for?
- [04:54]
Isabella Mies
Absolutely. So Ashley Madison is a married dating site. So it's an online dating platform primarily created for those that were already married in a relationship and looking to outsource and make other connections. And we've been around since 2002, so it's been a while, you know, it's been around and we're currently more than 80 million members around the world. So wow.
- [05:22]
Kat
So it's massive. Like, yeah, we're going to talk about the 80 million members now. You said it's specifically for married people.
- [05:31]
Isabella Mies
That was again, why, why the site was created back in 2002 was actually interesting. It was created based on the insight, but at the time, around 30% of people that were on singles dating sites were actually married. So the people that started the website said why not create a space where people can actually be honest and transparent about the fact that they are married and looking for something else rather than pretend to be single on single dating when they were married. So that was the light bulb moment where they decided to.
- [06:05]
Kat
Okay, that's amazing. Okay, so but you said they're being honest and transparent on Ashley Madison, but they're lying at home to their partners. Right.
- [06:14]
Isabella Mies
It's interesting. So yes, again, the site originally created primarily again for married people, obviously it's been around now for more than 20 years. So our audience, while still the majority again are married daters. We, we still attract a number of different users who are in less conventional relationships. What I mean by that is we can look at it sort of disclosed and undisclosed non monogamy. So undisclosed. Obviously people are having secret affairs. Right. Without the knowledge of their partner. But then there's also, you know, a whole portion of our membership today that are actually on the site site in a disclosed non monogamous relationship, meaning some form of open relationship, maybe polyamory, swinging monogamish. So they're either on the site with their partner or at least with the knowledge.
- [07:09]
Kat
That's very interesting because these open marriages are becoming more and more common every single day. Right. A lot of people don't want to admit it or talk about it because I know there's so much stigma because our idea of marriage maybe because the way we are brought up, we think like, you know, I'm gonna be with one person and I'm loyal to that person and I can't cheat. And that's the way it is. It's like, you know, that's cool square. Which of course it works for a lot of people, but for a lot of people it's changing and evolving.
- [07:41]
Isabella Mies
Yeah, it's really interesting. So I've actually worked at Ashley Madison for more than six years now. And even in that time I joined in 2017, I've seen such an evolution in, in our membership and so what they're looking for. But you're right, like even the people who are in an open relationship, they still come to us for that discretion. So at its core, Ashley Madison offers discretion. That's really again people come for the like minded community, people who are looking for the same thing, but also for that discretion piece. So even people who are in open relationships, they don't tell a lot of people in their life. You know, they don't tell their family, their friends, their kids, you know, they're the couple knows. But that's sort of it a lot of times because there is even again, even Though it's a mutual agreement, there is a fear of that judgment and what will people think. And so they do want to keep it discreet. And so, again, that is often why they're first attracted to join Ashley Madison. But it's interesting because I do think that is evolving. I do think it's changing as well. And I think even the pandemic was a huge turning point for how people view relationships. That idea that maybe you can't get everything from one person after all. And we have to sort of start getting a bit more creative in how we design a relationship.
- [08:56]
Kat
Creative, yeah. That's a very evolved way of thinking. Because I do know, like, for a lot of couples, it's a big deal. But let's go step by step because there are so many questions, and we're getting ahead. And I know, because I know my listeners are gonna ask. So the. The headline that you guys use, I think, from the. The very beginning, right. Is Life is short. Have an affair. So, like you said, this is how it started. And I think that was the number one criticism when we talk about Ashley Madison to this day. I think the number one criticism we hear, even, like, when I tell, like, my team and my friends, oh, I'm going to interview Isabella from Ashley Marriage. The immediate thing that it comes to mind is, oh, my God, they are destroying marriages, they're destroying relationships, they're encouraging people to cheat. So can you talk about this marketing headline and how you guys see it?
- [09:50]
Isabella Mies
Yeah, of course. I think it's a totally fair question. So again, the site started back in 2002. It really was, I think, one of the first disruptor brands in the online dating space. And obviously, again, there was controversy and a lot of, I think, cheekiness, even from how we approached the brand and the marketing back then. Obviously, I wasn't there back then, but I think just, you know, we're not a brand that took ourselves overly seriously. I mean, really, you know, again, I think we've always approached it in. In that same way. So I think the headline, really, again, the tagline spoke to the fact that, again, what we were doing was targeting married dating. Married daters. And the idea of, you know, if you're not getting everything from that one person, you know, there's an opportunity to. Again, you know, I think traditionally it's either, you know, you stay and maybe you're not fully fulfilled or you get a divorce. Right. It's very binary. And I think at the time, Ashley Madison presented another path. Right. Where you don't necessarily have to Leave your partner, you can perhaps outsource some of these needs with other people who are also looking for the same thing. They're being honest and upfront about looking for the same thing. And neither party is looking to leave their current situation. Right? So I think it was the idea of both having equal amount of skin in the game, right. Whereas I think again, a lot of people will either again back then would pretend to be single and walk into a bar, pretend to be single and go into a single dating website. Ashley Madison really was creating a space where people could pursue those types of relationships very directly.
- [11:49]
Kat
So you, you guys, I guess you felt, or the, the creator of Ashley Madison, you guys felt that obviously people cheat, period.
- [11:59]
Isabella Mies
I mean it existed, infidelity existed long before Ashley Madison, anybody.
- [12:03]
Kat
So you're just facilitating a platform where everybody that wants to have these affairs can meet each other. Basically that's how it was created.
- [12:13]
Isabella Mies
And again, the core offering really being that discretion piece.
- [12:17]
Kat
So, so how does that work? I know you and, and I read that about you as well. You say it's very discreet. How is that? So like, do you protect the members? Do you guarantee that they're not going to be found? Because if you Google actually Madison, there's a bunch of things in forums and stuff that say like, oh, this is how you can find out if your husband is cheating. This is how you can find out if your husband's on Ashley medicine. How do you have a way to protect your members?
- [12:44]
Isabella Mies
So really what we mean again by discretion and being sort of having a discretion offering at its core is the site was designed and built that people can really control their experience. So I would say the biggest sort of feature around that is the idea of having a private key for your photos. So again, you can control when you want people to have access to seeing what you look like, your photos, all that. So it's not putting everything out there at once. And again giving members a bit more control on how they want to really sort of reveal certain parts of themselves. It's really just in how the product is really designed with that discretion piece. And obviously again, like, you know, so much of our audience over time has really evolved. But I think that just knowing that there is that like minded community of people, I think gives people a lot of comfort that they're, they're in a place where people are looking for the same things. And again, most people are, interestingly enough, we, we call it straying to stay like, so straying to stay married. Like they really. And I think this is you know, would come as a surprise, at least for me. It came a surprise to my sort of learning more. A lot of people consider themselves in a lot of ways happily married, you know, in four to five areas, areas of those key pillars of marriage. A lot of times it's just that one piece missing and they don't really feel that they want to leave their partner. Right. And sort of blew off their whole life because this one thing is missing. So I think that's the idea of people who come to our site are not necessarily, again, looking to, to leave. They really are looking to preserve.
- [14:30]
Kat
They just want an adventure. Do you know the main reason most of your clients use Ashley Medicine? Did you guys ever do some kind of a research about it? Is it boredom? Is it, I don't know, like just an adventure, try something new? Do you have any idea?
- [14:46]
Isabella Mies
Oh yeah, absolutely. So again, a big part of what we do is that research piece like you mentioned. So. And we do that different ways, right. We have, you know, the opportunity to survey our members. So we actually survey our members almost on a bi weekly basis around the world. And we will, you know, each survey has a different theme and we'll pull our members on different themes and different questions we have. And that's a really great way for us to get a temperature check on why they're on our site, what benefits they're getting, what brought them there, etc. And we've also historically worked with a lot of external research partners and it's interesting because I think a lot of what we're led to believe around infidelity and monogamy isn't entirely accurate. Right. So again, we have this long held belief that infidelity is a male dominant behavior. We have this long held belief that monogamy is harder for men than it is for women. Men cheat for sex, women cheat for emotion. All of these sort of things that I think in mainstream media were sort of told and that's really sort of flipped on its head, at least from our research and what we see. And so we worked with a researcher, Dr. Alicia Walker out of the University of Missouri, and she actually did separate research projects on why women cheat and why men cheat. And in both of those studies she looked at people on Ashley Madison and what she felt primarily and what she found primarily in her research was that women were cheating for sex. Good sex, better sexual. Men were cheating for more of the emotional validation.
- [16:26]
Kat
That's interesting, right?
- [16:28]
Isabella Mies
Yeah. And so you know, her, her research ended up turning into two books. The book on my Men's sheet was called chasing Masculinity. And a lot of the themes she explored there from her research on people in Ashley Madison was really men wanted to feel wanted again, desired. So a lot of times even just chatting with women and not actually like reaching the point of a physical affair was enough for the men. Just knowing they were wanted and they were feeling desired again. And oftentimes that would lead to a physical affair, but really that desire to feel wanted and listened to and heard and seen was a huge motivator for men. Women on the other hand, were in oftentimes sexless or orgasm less marriages. And you know, again, they didn't want to leave their partner. They felt very, you know, emotionally fulfilled in a lot of the ways. They felt like they had a good co parent, a good, a best friend, a financial partner. They really built their life around this person. But they weren't having great sex or the type of sex they wanted. And that was why they chose Ashley Madison. They were really coming to outsource physical needs, physical intimacy. They didn't want to again develop that emotional, necessarily emotional piece. They just wanted sexual.
- [17:52]
Kat
Yeah, it's interesting they're saying that because I just interviewed a few weeks ago one of the top sexologists in the United States and in the world, Dr. Tammy Nelson, and she said the same thing. She does tons and tons of research and she does research for different websites. I don't know if she worked with you guys, I forgot. Yeah, but she said, yeah, she said, said that and I had no idea. But she said nowadays women cheat just as much as men and many times because they're unfulfilled sexually. Like maybe they don't want to leave their partners or whatever, or there's the stigma or the family, the criticism. But they also wanna have more sex basically.
- [18:33]
Isabella Mies
Absolutely, yeah. And I, there was a stat that came out not long ago that said, I think, you know, since the early 90s, female infidelity rates have gone up around 30% where male infidelity rates have remained relatively stagnant. But that also begs the question, are women cheating more or women just more comfortable talking about.
- [18:56]
Kat
Right, that's a good question. I don't know, I think they're just, I personally think they're cheating more because women are becoming more independent, women are having more balls, so to speak, to go after what they want. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong because I know I'm going to get 10 million messages saying like I'm encouraging people to cheat, blah, blah, blah, I'm not encouraging anybody to cheat. I'm just saying that it's a fact. People cheat. And. And I think that's why, because they. They're trying to just seek whatever they don't have in their relationships.
- [19:34]
Isabella Mies
Yeah. And I think that's, you know, totally the approach, you know, I take as well. And I actually, you know, I have the privilege of talking to a lot of both women and men that use our site, and I hear directly from them, sort of what brings them there. And I just approach it from, you know, again, it's a place of curiosity. Right. It's not about good, bad. Right. Wrong. If you agree. If you don't, it's almost just understanding human behavior and human motivation.
- [20:01]
Kat
Yeah.
- [20:01]
Isabella Mies
And I think whether or not you agree with it, you can't deny that it's happening and it's happening in huge numbers.
- [20:06]
Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [20:06]
Isabella Mies
And I think when it comes to nominal, more and more women are really leading the way. They're the trailblazers, actually. And I think we're just going to see more and more women, I think, talk about it. And what's also interesting is I think that this idea of variety, sexual variety, we think is so unique to men and what they need. But a lot of times women that find themselves in sexless relationships, the woman I talk to, they actually convince themselves. You know, they hit their mid-40s, 50s. They convince themselves that maybe they don't like sex anymore because they're uninterested in having sex with their spouse. And, you know, they feel a decline in attraction and they sort of chalk it up to, okay, maybe sex is just sort of something I've lost interest in as a whole. And then they have their first affair and. And they say, wait a second. No, I actually love sex. It's just that I lost interest in having it the same way for so many years. And again, things impact it. Right. Like family, motherhood, parenthood, seeing your partner maybe differently and kind of getting into routines. But it's. Anyway, I can go on and on. It's very interesting.
- [21:16]
Kat
No, and I agree with you. And like I said, me personally, I'm just saying for. For my listeners, I don't condone cheating because. Not that I'm approved or anything, because I don't like lies. I think lies are kind of like cockroaches. You know, where there's one, there's like 10 million. So that's the part that bothers me. I would be more like the person if I'm in a relationship, if I wanted to cheat. Or see somebody else. I prefer a person to look me in the eyes and just say it. I have a lot more respect for people that do that. But that being said, I agree with you. Most people don't have that courage. Most people know if they look at their partner's eyes and say, oh my God, you know, I want to, I want to have more sex. I want to have most especially wives. If, if a husband would tell them that, most wives in the world would freak out and almost die of a heart attack because they don't want to be cheated on. And I understand it's a big stigma around this situation. Like, you know, I, I'm not happy, but I can't tell my partner that I'm not happy because I can rock the boat. So as much as I don't agree with people that cheat because of the lying part of it, I understand why they do, if that makes sense. Guys, I never thought I would say this, but this Black Friday, instead of buying more stuff I don't need, I decided to invest in my sex life instead. We all know Black Friday is about deals, but what would you rather do? Spend hundreds of dollars in stuff you don't need or 69 bucks on improving your sex life? Yes. @beducated.com Real Talk no one ever really teaches us how to be amazing in bed. We're just supposed to figure it out somehow, right? Well, that's exactly what I thought until I found educated. I started exploring their courses because I wanted to understand not just pleasure, but connection. And it completely changed how I started messy intimacy. I learned simple, real techniques that make you more confident, more in tune with your partner, and honestly more empowered in your own body. Beducated is a safe space for all. And that's my favorite part. No matter relationship status, sexual orientation or gender. So if you're ready to level up your love and sex life solo or with a partner, go to beducate.me cat69. That's my code. Kat K A T69 to get 65% off the yearly pass. That's their biggest discount of the year and it's completely risk free. 14 day money back guarantee. So go to Bedu Kate me cat 69 and give yourself a gift that will last.
- [23:56]
Isabella Mies
No, absolutely, it makes sense. I think those are all really valid points. I do think in terms of having that toolkit on how to communicate with, you know, with your partner and how to approach this conversations. I think, I mean, that's a lot of what Dr. Tammy Nelson does, right? It's Actually, I think people need that, that language and that, those tools and those resources to know. How do you even begin to have these conversations? You know, I'm not married, but I would imagine, you know, if you're with someone for 20 plus years, you know, and that part of your life has gone stale, it's intimidating to have to broach those topics in a way where you still want to protect your partner's feelings and you don't want them to feel like your relationship is threatened at all and you want to just. It's. I think it's hard and I don't think there are enough tools out there, but I think it's changing.
- [24:46]
Kat
I agree. It's super intimidating. I'll tell you. I was married for 15 years and I had a really crappy marriage because I talked about in the podcast many times because my husband was very wealthy and the more money he made, the more he drank. And, you know, alcoholics, usually, they don't want to have sex, but because they're always drunk. So my sex life dwindled. Dwindled.
- [25:06]
Host/Interviewer
Window.
- [25:06]
Kat
And I never cheated, by the way, ever. And I, like you said, I was this woman that was super frustrated in my 30s, and I thought, okay, that's it. And then once I got out of the marriage and, and I started having great sex with whoever I was dating, I realized that that's really important. So I agree with you. I think maybe if more couples would communicate during the relationship, maybe they would have less affairs, or maybe they will go to Ashley Madison together and find other people that agree with the same lifestyle in terms of being everybody should be fulfilled for whatever they want to do. I don't know exactly.
- [25:48]
Isabella Mies
No, it's. It's true. And I mean, a lot of. Again, like, it's easy when it comes to having those conversations and all of those things and making those changes. It's always easier said than done, I think.
- [25:58]
Kat
Yes.
- [25:59]
Isabella Mies
And again, when talking to members, a lot of them say, you know, I try talking my partner, or we went to couples therapy, or I tried bringing this up, or we try and experiment and to no avail. Right. It just, it wasn't successful. But I do think, I mean, again, I'm not sure if you spoke to Dr. Tammy about this in your conversation, but I really like this idea of developing a monogamy agreement, because what Dr. Tammy speaks about a lot in her work is when you get married, you make an explicit promise to be faithful, to be monogamous.
- [26:33]
Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [26:34]
Isabella Mies
With a lot of. A lot of implicit assumptions about what that actually means to be monogamous and to be faithful over time. And that is why I think a lot of couples hit these roadblocks. Because, yes, of course, you're meant to be faithful to your partner, but the expectation is that you're going to get sex, you know, in that relationship.
- [26:54]
Host/Interviewer
Yes.
- [26:54]
Isabella Mies
So all of a sudden, one person completely loses interest in sex altogether. Is the other person then meant to be celibate for the rest of their life? And, you know, what does it mean? So it's interesting. This idea of the monogamy agreement is, you know, the, the vows you make when you get married may no longer be, you know, what you need five years in, 10 years in, when your kids leave the house and your empty nesters and you just look at each other and say, are we still in love? You know, do we still want the same things? So it's almost having this agreement where you revisit the terms. Right. At different, at different touch points in the relationship. And for some people, you know, monogamy makes sense for the purpose of raising a family, but maybe beyond that, it no longer makes sense.
- [27:41]
Kat
I love that idea. I think that's a very fair idea. Yeah, it's something that should be revisited as the marriage goes on and on and on. And things change because, yeah, some people have very high sex drive, some people are more adventurous, other people are not that interested. And I hear that complaint both from men and women all the time now. What's the ratio of men and women on, on the side.
- [28:06]
Isabella Mies
Yeah, that's. That's a great question. So we're actually pretty balanced globally.
- [28:11]
Kat
Really?
- [28:11]
Isabella Mies
There are certain. Yeah, there are certain markets, Brazil, for example, that actually have twice as many active women as they do.
- [28:21]
Kat
Seriously. Oh, that's so funny because, you know, I was born in Brazil and Brazil is a really funny society because, like, in front of everybody, they're like all family oriented and Catholics, blah, blah, blah. But I think it's one of the countries where people cheat the most because it's ingrained in their personality.
- [28:45]
Isabella Mies
Yeah, exactly. No, exactly. It's interesting because that's, that's an interesting point in that when you look at different places in the world, the place that sometimes you think be the most conservative or actually where people are seeking that out. Yeah, well, yeah, but no, generally speaking, we are, we are pretty balanced in terms of male to female ratio.
- [29:05]
Kat
How about the United States?
- [29:08]
Isabella Mies
Yeah, so United States, it's. And again, we actually produce annual reports, so we look at it year over year. But yes, in the States, it's it's quite balanced. And yeah, I think again, people find that surprising because I think there's just an assumption that it's more men or only men cheat. But again, it's just not, not what we're seeing. And again, I think that's why I'm always so fascinated speaking to women on our side because I just, I think this story around infidelity is just. We've really only, I feel like, heard about it in the context of men cheating over the years. And I think that same with just like sexuality in general, female sexuality is so understudied in comparison to male sexuality. And so I think that, yeah, I think people are very surprised to learn sort of again, how many women really are coming to Ashley Madison and sort of again, coming for the purpose, a very pragmatic purpose of just getting their sexual needs met. Yeah.
- [30:16]
Kat
Now, one question that I think a lot of people have, and I did too, and, and I think it's a normal curiosity because there are so many married men and maybe men with money, maybe successful men, I don't know, does the site attract a lot of sugar babies, escort courts, women who are there for the wrong reasons, women who are there because they want this guy. They know these guys are needy. Probably they want something. Many times they just want great sex. So do you guys see a lot of these women who want guys, you know, to pay them for things? I'm not saying prostitutes, but like, you know, sugar babies, arrangements, etc. Etc.
- [30:58]
Isabella Mies
So those are. Yeah, those are two obviously different things that you're talking about. But no, the answer is that is not what our site offer. That's not what people are coming for. Now, does that mean we never come across things like that? No. But again, if we have processes in place that if people are coming for certain purposes or intentions that are not in line with what we offer, or again our terms and conditions, then those still would be removed from the site because at the end of the day, we want to preserve our member experience. And what our members are coming for is not that our members are coming again for the true purpose of, you know, finding connections, you know, like that Married dating is that core offering. So again, like with any dating site, people are always going to come in with the wrong intentions or different purposes, but we, again, we have processes in place that really will weed that out.
- [31:58]
Kat
Yeah, for sure. For that matter, that. That's one thing that I agree. You can open Bumble. And that's the number one complaint, by the way. I talk to hundreds and Hundreds of men because of the podcast. And they all complain that no matter which site they use, there is always the girls asking for money, asking for gift, asking for this, ask for that. So I don't think it's a nationally medicine problem. I think it's a dating site problem.
- [32:24]
Isabella Mies
Dating, right, exactly. Issue. Yeah, that's a good question. It's a valid question.
- [32:30]
Kat
Yeah, no, because I know a lot of people are going to want to ask that question. So it's, it's not for somebody who's trying to find. It's not like a sugar baby, sugar daddy type arrangement website?
- [32:39]
Isabella Mies
No, no, it's not.
- [32:41]
Kat
So and it's not an app, you specifically have to go on the site?
- [32:46]
Isabella Mies
No, we have an app as well.
- [32:47]
Kat
Oh, you do? Oh yeah, we have. Somebody asked me that question. I didn't know. So you do have an app?
- [32:52]
Isabella Mies
Yes, they have now. Exactly.
- [32:54]
Kat
And, but how does it work? Like practically, let's say I register there, I put my profile. You said you can, you can hide your pictures if you want to maintain your privacy.
- [33:06]
Isabella Mies
It's free for everyone to join, but it's worth noting that men pay. Some men purchase credits to initiate conversations. It's free for women.
- [33:15]
Kat
Oh, really? So you don't have to.
- [33:19]
Isabella Mies
Oh, sorry, go ahead.
- [33:20]
Kat
So women don't have to pay for a membership or anything?
- [33:23]
Isabella Mies
Yeah, so no one and no one has to pay to join. But for to initiate a conversation, men would have to purchase credits. The only caveat there is if it's female seeking female. So if it's women looking into another woman, then the female who initiates the conversation would have to pay. But for the most part it's. For the most part it is only.
- [33:45]
Kat
The man that has to say so to protect someone. Because I, I would guess most people because they're married or in relationship, whatever, they don't want to put all their pictures out there.
- [33:55]
Host/Interviewer
Right.
- [33:56]
Kat
So how do you choose, how do they choose each other initially if they. Because usually, you know, dating sites, you see the person's photo and you're like, oh yeah, he's attractive, she's attractive. Let me look at everything else. How does that work for Ashley Madison?
- [34:13]
Isabella Mies
Yeah, and that's again another great question. So it's different for each member. I think again, we have the private key feature where people can choose to just sort of initiate a conversation first and then slowly reveal photos. There's also again, people that might only want to include certain photos where you can't really tell, you know, you can't really see their face. Or you can sort of get a sense. But again, it's a comfort level things. So I think that it's when they're comfortable to. And then again, other people. By the way, we have single people on our site, which also surprises people.
- [34:43]
Kat
Oh, really? So, so what are the single people doing on the site? They want to have relationships with married people.
- [34:50]
Isabella Mies
Yeah. So again, like, I think in terms of the discretion piece, I think that just to go back to answer your question in terms of like how like physicality or sort of physical attraction is such a huge component in connecting with people, right. You need to know if you're going to be physically attracted to. So I think to answer the question around that, I think it really depends on the scenario in the sense of, you know, again, if someone is single joining Ashley Medicine, they're not going to be as concerned. So they're probably going to be more forthcoming with showing photos. Right. Same with people maybe who are. Again, a lot of people come to our site who maybe are going through a divorce, but they're not yet ready to go on a singles dating site. Maybe they don't want their partner to know they're out there dating because you understand, like how online dating works if you know, your friend sees your partner on an online dating site or your ex or, you know, people. So I think that discretion piece is still really valuable for people who are in between relationships or have sort of a complicated situation, they might want to just again, not be as forthcoming. But again, if there's, someone that's, you know, on with the knowledge of their partner or are in, you know, in between relationships or single, they might not be, again, as concerned in terms of showing photos than someone who is having like, sort of what you would consider a traditional secret affair where they might want to take more of a slow approach to put up their photos.
- [36:14]
Kat
So, yeah, so if somebody doesn't want to show their face, you still let them put like, I don't know, a picture of their body. Do you let them put sexy pictures or.
- [36:24]
Isabella Mies
And again. And they might, they might eventually, like, they might start with more of like a, a body shot. And then gradually as they're talking, somebody go, okay, I'm comfortable now. I want to show, you know, my face. Or again, there's that it's designed to give people that freedom to sort of share sort of as they feel comfortable. But again, like I said, because our audience is changing and evolving not. It's just different degrees of people wanting to have that I serve.
- [36:56]
Kat
So that's all that's very interesting. So how about. This is a. An interesting question. And you've been working there for. For a long time, right? Six years. It makes me think, do you remember the movie Fatal Attraction? Like that the guy has an affair because an affair. Suppose everything's supposed to work out, right? You go, you have an affair, and then you go back home to your family. You don't rock the boat. Everything is fine. But there are crazy people out there that they have an affair with you. But then they decide they want more. Because I always hear these stories, you know, because I do the podcast, like, oh, my God, I went out with this woman and now she's trying to follow me. And now she knows my picture, and now she knows my name. And then they, you know, obviously the extreme is like the blackmailing or telling the wife and all that stuff. Tough, because it happens. Have you ever heard of stories like that?
- [37:53]
Isabella Mies
I think, again, that's almost just. I think dating in general, I think it's, to a degree, it's, it's. I mean, I think you see things happen. And honestly, I don't even know if, again, like, I don't even know it's online dating. I just think it's sort of a case of, you know, expectation versus reality. I think that anytime you're entering the dating world, there's always potential for one person to feel more strongly or one person to get more attached. Or again, in the case of one person being married and the other person not being married, again, things may be going sideways. I think, again, at the end of the day, the reason that Ashley Madison sort of was created was to have this idea. And I know people when you say, like, you know, we wanted to create an honest dating site, but it's an infidelity website, people sort of can't kind of understand how those two are connected. But really, I think the idea was to create a space where people can be very direct and upfront. But the fact that this is what they're looking for, this is what, you know, what they want. And the idea is almost having that again, like, the equal skin. In the game, what we talk we call, like, mutually assured destruction. So you're married, I'm married. We're both. We both have something here on the line, and we're both looking really to get the same thing out of it. So I think that's why a site like Ashley Madison is, I think, why we are so popular, and I think why some people still do come to us. But again, obviously, again, in online dating, there's always going to be people that aren't, don't have, you know, good intentions. I don't think that's at all unique to actually Madison.
- [39:39]
Kat
No, no, I agree. I'm just saying in your case, because you know, the guys that are married and they might go out with girls that, you know, there's always the woman. Yeah, the guys, that's the woman. But you know, there's always the person that says, oh, I'm gonna make him leave the wife for me. You know that famous stories. Oh, he's gonna leave the wife because of me. And you know, it usually doesn't work that way.
- [40:07]
Isabella Mies
Yeah. And I do a degree that you're right. And I think another thing. So. No, I, I haven't seen that, but I know what you mean. I think like even the fact that you brought up a movie like such a well known Hollywood classic movie that so many people like. Again, some of your listeners will know that reference right away. I think it sort of informs where we get a lot of these ideas around cheating and infidelity and marriage is what we see on tv. It's what we see in movies.
- [40:34]
Kat
But reality, most of the time you're saying it works out like from your experience. Most of the time it's mood sailing.
- [40:43]
Isabella Mies
It works out in the sense that do people meet on Ashley Madison, have a fairy tale married?
- [40:48]
Kat
No. Like they're happy with the results.
- [40:51]
Isabella Mies
So yeah. So what we consider to be a successful affair is an undiscovered affair. So I think again that that is how we, we look at sort of what a successful affair looks like. But mind you, we have had people. I was sort of being cheeky before, but we actually have had people come out actually on us and meet, fall in love and get married. We actually had a couple that were both married. And this is, I would say this is the exception more so than the rule that we had a couple people join both in relationships. They met in Ashley Madison, they left their respective partners for each other, they got married and then I believe it was six years into their marriage, they decided they wanted to open up the relationship because they wanted to stay together. And they knew that both of them were sort of getting that itch again. And so then they joined Ashley Madison together. Wow. As a couple.
- [41:45]
Kat
There you go. I guess it's all about communicating. I don't know, just saying. I think the more you communicate with your partner and go on adventures with your partner, less are the chances that they're gonna go and cheat without you. That's just like my outtake on it, I don't know, but I agree with you. Most people are never gonna do that. They're not comfortable doing that. Now really quickly, because we're almost running out of time. I know. I think a long ways back, maybe in the beginning of Ashley Madison, you guys had a big problem in terms of fake profiles. Do you have any kind of filter? Do you have any kind of control that, you know, these people are real, or do you control fake profiles at all?
- [42:29]
Isabella Mies
Yeah, so, like, again, like, with online dating sites in general, we have a. You know, we have a rigorous system in place to release screen. So obviously we have, like, you know, a bi team, we have a customer service team, and they're really in place to screen for all of that. Again, we never want anyone with sort of bad intentions on the platform, so we have those processes put into place to really screen those out.
- [43:02]
Kat
Okay, so you think most of your profiles are real people? Like, real people that want to.
- [43:09]
Isabella Mies
Yes, absolutely. And again, I talk to them every day, and we survey them, we talk to them when we get there. You know, we really want to bring their experience. A big part of what I do is I want to bring their stories and their experiences to life into the forefront. And I. I think why I think what you're doing is so important is I think you're fostering conversations and you're removing shame and you're removing the sort of the taboo and the stigma, and you're just creating a platform where people can really, you know, the upfront. And I think for our members, at least the ones I speak to, like, you know, they want to share those stories. They want to create these conversations. Because I think the more we do that, I think slowly people, you know, maybe again, monogamy works for a lot of people. I think it's, you know, something that people are very successful in, but it doesn't work for everyone, and it shouldn't necessarily be the only way to look at a successful relationship. And so I think that the more we have these conversations, I think the more people start to.
- [44:09]
Kat
Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. I think it's all about opening up conversations, which is what we try to do here and educate ourselves. Because me, I did. I. I didn't know as much about Ashley Medicine. I think it's very interesting. I definitely agree with you. It's something that happens. People cheat, period. You can make believe they don't. Or like a lot of married couples, they make believe they don't, but they do. You can decide to Communicate with your partner and do it together. Or you can go to a place like Ashley Madison and like you said, have an undisclosed affair and go back to your life. I think it's a personal choice. And this is why I say I don't judge anybody. I think you got to figure out what works for you and what works for your relationship and what works for your marriage. Because we're all evolving. There's not, I think most of it, honestly. It's the way we grow up. We think about marriage, we think about relationships like in a square. And if you do, especially women, like you said, like, even me, like, I never cheated on anybody in my life, but I get called a every day because I do the sex podcast. People think like, I'm having sex with multiple men every night. It's not the case. But you know what? If it was the case, we have every right to do that. So I think it's really important to bring, to open up these conversations because I think people should have the right to do whatever makes them happy because life is very short, in my opinion.
- [45:34]
Isabella Mies
I think that's great. I think what you're doing is fantastic and I'm so grateful to have had the opportunity to come and chat with you today.
- [45:40]
Kat
I am too. And last but not least, before I let you go, I have to ask you this tough one in terms of, like, the ethical part of it or, you know, how do you feel bad about it? Do you, you know, have it resolved in your mind as, as a senior executive of this company, or does the company say anything about that?
- [46:02]
Isabella Mies
I think it's a great question. It's obviously one that I've got many times before. You're not the first person to ask. So I'm. I mean, when I decided to work at the company, it was something that, again, like, I didn't know a lot about this world. I had my own personal, preconceived opinions about infidelity. So by no means did I feel like this, you know, was something that I understood overnight. You know what I mean? Like, I think in a lot of ways I still feel, as much as I work for this company, I'm still learning so much about the topic of monogamy and infidelity. I think that's why I love my job so much, because it feels like I'm learning every day. So in terms of the ethical piece of I'm a very open minded person and I thought I was a very open minded person, but since working here, I think I've become even more so open minded to sort of how people want to live their life. And I think that I always just say if we can replace judgment with curiosity, I think we can learn a lot from each other. And I certainly learn a lot from the members that use our site every day. But I also get to work with a lot of experts in their field. Right. I get to work with sex therapists, I get to work with academics, sociologists, psychologists, and I learn about human behavior. And so for me, it really, I don't look at it as good, bad, right. Wrong. I look at it as we're all having a human experience. I look at it as relationships, our work. And they're hard and they're not. There's not simple and you don't really know until you walk in someone else's shoes. So for me, I just think I have one of the coolest jobs ever.
- [47:49]
Kat
It must be very interesting.
- [47:50]
Host/Interviewer
For sure.
- [47:53]
Kat
And I agree with you. He said, I don't judge anyone. I think each person needs to, to figure out what's best for them. This is just an option out there. So. So I'm not condoned because I know, I know I'm gonna get bombarded. I'm not condoning cheating. I'm not saying cheat, don't cheat, have an open marriage. I think each person needs to decide what's best for them. But I am so grateful and happy that you came here to educate us about Ashley Madison and it was a huge pleasure having you. Thank you so much.
- [48:22]
Isabella Mies
Thank you so much.
- [48:23]
Kat
I really appreciate it. And guys, be safe out there. No matter what you do. Self love first and I'll see you soon.