BETTER SEX WITH DR JENN GUNSAULLUS, PH.D.

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Kat on the Loose – "BETTER SEX WITH DR JENN GUNSAULLUS, PH.D."

Host: Kat Zammuto
Guest: Dr. Jenn Gunsaullus, Ph.D. (Sexologist, Sociologist, Author, Relationship Coach, TEDx Speaker)
Release Date: July 17, 2024

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Overview:

This episode dives deep into breaking the stigmas and taboos that surround female sexual expression, intimacy, and sexual communication. Kat and Dr. Jenn candidly explore how shame, societal conditioning, and outdated beliefs hurt women’s sexuality, relationships, and self-esteem. They share practical strategies for reclaiming agency, approaching sexual conversations, embracing aging bodies, and empowering both women and men to own their pleasure—at any age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Societal Stigma Around Talking About Sex

• Shame & Censorship:
  Both Kat and Dr. Jenn express frustration at how openly discussing "sex" gets censored, especially on social media.

  “Every time we say the word sex we get censored… I get shadow banned and I get messages from Instagram like, take this down, take that down." – Kat (03:19-03:39)

• Cultural Contradictions:
  Dr. Jenn contrasts the U.S. culture with, for example, Scandinavian countries, where naked bodies are less sexualized and shame around sex is less prevalent.

  “In the US we combine it all together… and then it’s like a deeply felt sense of something that’s inappropriate and dirty and wrong and embarrassing to talk about.” – Dr. Jenn (04:12-05:25)

2. How Early Conditioning Shapes Sexual Shame & Empowerment

• Inherited Beliefs:
  Dr. Jenn encourages listeners to reflect on where their internalized shame and discomfort originate—often from family, religion, and society.

  “For all of us, that's the best starting point we can do – reflect on, what did I learn? Where did I learn it? Literally, where do I feel it in my body?” – Dr. Jenn (06:17-07:21)

• Role of Generational Change:
  The importance of older women “normalizing this for younger women and talking about it, talking openly about it.” (07:21-08:04)

3. The Double Standard for Women

• Backlash is Real:
  Kat describes pushback she gets for her work on empowering women to speak about sexuality, much of which comes from men but at times from women too.

  “If you don’t want to do business with me, I probably don’t want to do business with you because I want to do business with men that are proud of women speaking up about important issues." – Kat (09:44-10:02)

• Reframing the Conversation:
  Dr. Jenn suggests turning discomfort back onto those expressing it:

  “I really will say turn it around on people, acknowledge that they're uncomfortable, and then say, why? Why is this me?” – Dr. Jenn (10:02-10:36)

4. Speaking Up About Sexual Needs in Relationships

• Start with Your Fears:
  Dr. Jenn’s advice is to identify your deepest fears before broaching the subject with a partner—fear of judgment, hurting feelings, embarrassment, etc.

  “The first step... is find out what are you most afraid of?... Then start the conversation in that place and actually say to your partner... I'm afraid to bring it up.” – Dr. Jenn (11:13-12:27)

• Practical Tips for Initiating the Conversation:

  • Own your insecurity up front.
  • Don’t have these conversations during sex; pick a neutral or intimate moment outside the bedroom.
  • Be intentional with setting and tone.

  “Speak up. If you're the right partner, even if it's something they don't want to do, they're still going to be supportive and proud of you.” – Kat (13:44-13:56)

• Roleplay and Practice:
  Dr. Jenn advocates rehearsing the conversation alone first to process your emotions and build confidence.

  “Practice it ahead of time. Like actually sit, spend five minutes, think about what you’re going to say… breathe through it.” – Dr. Jenn (17:28-18:19)

5. Sex & Aging: Myths, New Normals, and Better Sex

• Sexual Agency Gets Stronger With Age:
  Kat shares her experience of having better sex as she’s aged and become more vocal about her needs.

  “For me, the more I age, the better it gets because I speak up. I know what I want in a partner.” – Kat (19:37-19:57)

• Bodies Change, Communication Matters:
  Dr. Jenn stresses that bodies (and arousal, orgasm) change with age and life circumstances, but communication and teamwork keep intimacy vibrant.

  “I want him to know what my body's doing… we need to work as a team with this.” – Dr. Jenn (20:21-21:02)

• Intimacy Beyond Penetration:

  “Everything I talk about, sex is part of intimacy, but also emotional connection, mental connection, being vulnerable… that is what will create lasting sexual intimacy... even if nobody's getting an erection.” – Dr. Jenn (21:10-21:59)

6. Dealing with Sexual Disinterest, Body Shame & Self-Worth

• Start with the Underlying Narrative:
  Dr. Jenn again recommends asking, “What are you most afraid of?” as a path to finding new stories about sexuality, confidence, and pleasure.

  “We absolutely can write new sexual and intimacy stories for ourselves.” – Dr. Jenn (25:32-26:47)

• Body Insecurity Is Universal:
  Both speakers debunk the myth that physical “perfection” is what leads to great sex; rather, confidence and presence do.

  “Literally what we've been taught to fear around our bodies and judgment interferes with what we think folks are judging us for—our bodies. But… they're actually judging us for being insecure and not having passion.” – Dr. Jenn (29:25-29:50)
  “Everything starts with self-love, right?” – Kat (29:50)

• Mantra for Self-Esteem:
  Dr. Jenn recommends:

  “I'm on the journey to believing I'm a beautiful woman. I'm on the journey to believing I'm worthy.” (30:34-31:12)

7. Talking (and Listening!) in Bed

• Communication Increases Passion:

  • Kat dislikes “silent sex” and appreciates sexual communication and dirty talk.
  • Silence in bed is often the result of early conditioning or past sexual shame.

  “What makes for the best sexual encounter with a woman? …When she's not self-conscious and when she's like passionate and just losing herself in the moment.” – Dr. Jenn (29:23-29:50)

• Toys & Male Insecurity:
  Men often feel threatened by vibrators; Dr. Jenn encourages reframing toys as tools for mutual pleasure, not as “competition.”

  “You’re working as a team together to enhance pleasure... Toys can be very intimidating to men because they’re like, wait, I thought that was my job.” – Dr. Jenn (41:52-42:13)

8. Masturbation: Owning Solo Pleasure

• Still More Taboo for Women:
  Masturbation, especially for women, remains unnecessarily shameful.

  “That is way more taboo in general than sex in terms of how people feel about it and react to it.” – Dr. Jenn (37:05-37:11)

• Rewriting the Story:
  Identify where the shame comes from, recognize it as someone else's “story,” and start creating your own narrative of sexual self-acceptance.

  “Shining a bright light on it helps you realize… that’s someone else’s bullshit. That was society’s shame.” – Dr. Jenn (37:36-40:17)

• Practical Tips:

  • Try different toys (buy online if shy).
  • Masturbating in front of a partner can be fun and build connection (if both interested).
  • Tools like MojoUpgrade.com can help couples discover mutual interests safely. (43:36-44:15)

9. The “Ghosting after Sex” Dating Trend

• Disturbing Pattern:
  Kat raises the issue of grown men ghosting after multiple dates and finally having sex—a hurtful, power-play behavior.

  “It really does feel like a power game… they’re love bombing the woman… all building up to this excitement and then… they’re like, yeah, and I’m done here. That is such an asshole thing to do.” – Dr. Jenn (47:11-47:58)

• Compassion & Honest Communication:

  “At least send a message. If you don’t want to see anybody, at least don’t ghost. Have some respect for the fellow human…” – Dr. Jenn (48:52-49:12)

10. Final Encouragement—You Deserve Fulfilling Sex

• Change is Always Possible:

  "If it’s not working for you and you’re not happy or you’re not satisfied… it can be different. Trust that and believe that and you’re worthy of that.” – Dr. Jenn (50:05-51:08)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “We’re all walking contradictions… yet we learn still, most of us, at such a young age to carry such shame and embarrassment… our bodies are inappropriate… It’s not something dirty.”
  — Dr. Jenn, (04:12-05:25)

• “Just because you feel uncomfortable with this doesn't make it wrong. And that to me is the starting point.”
  — Dr. Jenn, (08:04-09:05)

• “I think during a romantic dinner… that's the time that I would pick.”
  — Kat, (14:54-16:01)

• “Everything I talk about… sex is part of intimacy, but also emotional connection, mental connection, being vulnerable… that is all… what will create lasting sexual intimacy with your partner, even if nobody’s getting an erection.”
  — Dr. Jenn, (21:10-21:59)

• “What makes for the best sexual encounter with a woman? …When she's not self-conscious and when she's like passionate and just losing herself in the moment.”
  — Dr. Jenn, (29:23–29:50)

• “We absolutely can write new sexual and intimacy stories for ourselves.”
  — Dr. Jenn, (25:32-26:47)

• “If it’s not working for you and you’re not happy or you’re not satisfied. It can be different. And trust that and believe that and you’re worthy of that.”
  — Dr. Jenn, (50:05–51:08)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 03:19–03:39 — The challenge of censorship for sex educators
• 04:12–05:25 — Cultural differences and deep-seated shame
• 07:21–08:04 — Generational responsibility; how older women can help
• 10:02–10:36 — Turning discomfort back onto the uncomfortable
• 11:13–12:27 — How to start difficult conversations with partners
• 13:31–13:56 — Vulnerability as a path to intimacy
• 14:54–16:24 — Why you shouldn’t bring up new sex topics during sex
• 17:28–18:19 — How to practice and rehearse conversations
• 19:57–20:21 — Sex (and better sex!) as we age
• 29:23–29:50 — Passion beats insecurity in bed
• 37:05–37:11 — Masturbation is “way more taboo in general than sex”
• 47:11–47:58 — The emotional harm of ghosting after sex
• 50:05–51:08 — The fundamental message: “It can be different.”

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Memorable, Light-Hearted Moments

• Kat and Dr. Jenn “virtually” fist-bump when celebrating the normalization of masturbation and self-pleasure discussions. (37:28)
• Playful banter about dating and the silence of uncommunicative partners in bed. (32:25–33:47)

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Resources & Recommendations

• Book: From Madness to Mindfulness: Reinventing Sex for Women, Dr. Jenn Gunsaullus
• Self-Discovery Tool: MojoUpgrade.com (mutual sexual interests quiz)
• Takeaway Message: Communicate, practice vulnerability, and give yourself permission for pleasure—no matter your age or relationship status.

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Closing Statement

“I'm living proof that it can be different. You can always start over. You can always pick up and find the right partner for you.” — Kat (51:08)
“Thank you so much. You're fun. You're amazing. You're beautiful, you're intelligent, you're the whole package.” — Kat (51:24)

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Transcript

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree. Zoe, this thing weighs a ton. Drew Ski, lift with your legs, man. Santa. Santa, did you get my letter? He's talking to you britches. I'm not.

[Kat]

Of course he did.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Right, Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list. And elf, I'm six' three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T Mobile. You can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies, right? Mrs. Claus? Hi Mrs. Claude Claus, much younger sister.

[Kat]

And AT T Mobile, there's no trade.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

In needed when you switch, so you.

[Kat]

Can keep your old phone or give.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

It as a gift. And the best part, you can make the switch to T mobile from your phone in just 15 minutes.

[Kat]

Nice. My side of the tree is slipping.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Kimber, the holidays are better. AT T Mobile switch in just 15 minutes and get iPhone 17 on us with no trade in needed. And now T Mobile is available in U.S. cellular stores with sweet monthly bill credits for well qualified customers plus tax and $35 vice connection charge credits and imbalance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel financing agreement. 256 gigs $830 eligible for it in a new line, $100 plus a month plan with auto fees required. Check out 15 minutes or less per line.

[Kat]

Visit t mobile.com My guest today, Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez, Ph.D. is a sexologist, sociologist, relationship coach, author and TEDx speaker. She's a radical force for self expression and has spent the last 20 plus years tearing down social stigmas and shame around sexual expression and empowering women to focus on fully embody their sexuality. Needless to say, she's right up my alley because this is exactly what I try to do on this podcast. She's a celebrated author and the writer of From Madness to Mindful Reinventing Sex for Women, a self help guide designed to liberate women and help them reclaim passion and pleasure both in and out of the bedroom. I hope you guys enjoy this super fun and super important conversation with the fabulous Jennifer. And for once and for all, can we please normalize Women talking about sex and wanting to have amazing fulfilling sex lives and Canada loses gratefully. Sponsored by a local wonderful Los Angeles business, Gold Standard Builders, a design and construction company, licensed general contractors, a passionate team delivering great service, quality and fair pricing. They pay great attention to every detail. The owner, Adam Kornfeld, is so hands on with his projects, that's why their clients keep going back for more. So if you guys are thinking about remodeling your homes, a bathroom, a bedroom Maybe getting your backyards ready for summer. If you're interested in doing any projects in the great LA area, these are the guys that you definitely should go to. Super reliable, super nice. Give them a call for free estimates. 1-800-469-9189. Take a look at their website for amazing photos of their projects. Www.goldstandardbuilders.com Dr. Jen, welcome to Ken on the Loose. It's such a huge honor to have you here.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I'm excited.

[Kat]

I'm already a really big fan of your work.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Thank you.

[Kat]

I was reading your book last night and I was listening to your TED talks.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Oh, thank you.

[Kat]

Like, that's my. One of my, my major like bucket list goals. Like I want to be there.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Right.

[Kat]

It's pretty awesome.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

One of those stages.

[Kat]

So needless to say, you are a major, major authority in your area, which is sex. I feel like a child. Cuz some like it's amazing. Every time we say the word sex we get censored. Especially on social media. Right?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I know. And folks that use SE GGs instead.

[Kat]

Yeah, we have to because seriously, like just the fact that my podcast is Cat on the Loose. Sex, dating and relationships. I keep getting shadow banned and I get messages from Instagram like, take this down, take that down. So let's start with that.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Because I know it's a huge part of your work and it's a huge part of my work. How do we dismissify talking about sex? Is it possible to make it like normal and mainstream as such an important part of our adult lives?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah, I know. It's like we're like all walking contradictions in countries like ours that we know this is one of the most important things we know. It's the reason we're all here pretty much, you know, and yet, and it's such an important thing, particularly, you know, for maintaining healthy relationships and experiencing pleasure and satisfaction and fulfillment and all of these things. Yet we learn still, most of us learn at such a young age to still carry such shame and embarrassment we have, you know, because I'm a sociologist by education and so I'm always looking at what are the components, what are we being taught? And we're still being taught that sex is embarrassing, it's shameful, it's inappropriate to talk about that our bodies are inappropriate. You know, comparing us to other countries and like some Scandinavian countries, for example, compared to the US where here we equate bodies, naked bodies and sex. And other places are like, no, we all have naked bodies, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with non naked bodies. It's not to be shamed and it's not something dirty. But in the US we combine it all together and we learn that from a young age. And then it's like a deeply felt sense of something that's inappropriate and dirty and wrong and embarrassing to talk about.

[Kat]

That is so true because I come from Brazil and France, okay? And it's two cultures that are very open when it comes to talk about, like you said, talking about sex and our bodies and wearing sexy bikinis on the beach. It's totally fine. However, I had kind of the same background education as yours. Like, my mom was like, from an Italian background, very Catholic family. La la la, la la. So from a very early age I was like, you know, don't talk about it. Get married a virgin. I obviously I was the black sheep of my family because I didn't do any of it, but. And you talk about that as well. But how do we make it normal, especially for women, right? Because when guys talk about sex, like.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah, good for you.

[Kat]

But when we talk about sex, we are labeled all kinds of crazy shit, from perverts to whores to this and that and that and that.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

And I think, you know, so I mostly work with folks that are 18 and older. So, you know, sadly, by the time I get folks that are working with folks, it's already been ingrained in us, but we could still undo a lot of it. And I think it's reflecting on what are your deepest held beliefs around these topics and about yourself as a sexual being? And where do you have fears and insecurities and shame? And for all of us, that's the best starting point we can do is to reflect on, like, what did I learn? Where did I learn it? Literally, where do I feel it? Inside my body. Because we feel shame so deeply and then we want to hide out and all it does is it perpetuates all of this. And then we pass it in. If we feel shame about something, if someone triggers that in us, then we shame them. And then we pass that on to younger generations, especially women. So for me, it is older generations normalizing this for younger women and talking about it, talking openly about it. But that all starts with us owning our own shit, like looking at it, reflecting on it, feeling it, and having the courage to sit with the discomfort, to identify what it is and then do something more responsible with it.

[Kat]

Yeah, I know. I love it and I completely agree with you. And I think that's a big part of my Work with the podcast. I really fight to make this conversation a hot topic and I get a lot of backlash. Like I've had people tell me delete the word sex from the title. Why are you talking about it? I've had clients because I own a PR marketing agency. I've had clients tell me like, oh, I don't know if I can work with you because you talk about sex. But I'm not talking about anything wrong. On the contrary. So anybody out there listening? Especially today, I'm, I'm focusing on women because I know for so many women, they want to speak up, but they're like you said, so ashamed. So how do you break this barrier for.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Well, I mean, so many directions, but like, you know what you're talking about. Even like you said, people are giving you pushback for. Yeah, well, so I would like to say to any of them, and I push right back that are listening. Just because you feel uncomfortable with this doesn't make. It's wrong. And that to me is the starting point. And we all like, if we. Yeah, I mean, right. The number of times that I've been like, oh, somebody's like, oh, yeah, I'd love to work with you. Oh yeah, no, we can't do any co branding online. Yeah, it'll soil my image if it's attached to anything sex. And I was like, how are we still doing this in 2024? To me, you know, it's taking a stand for ourselves, it's taking risks. We do right, we lose things sometimes. We lose contacts, we lose, we get pushback, we lose followers. But I also think it is, Yeah, I do think it's this piece. Like, I understand you're uncomfortable with this, but just because you're uncomfortable doesn't make it wrong or shameful. That might be something you want to look at or journal on tonight or talk to your therapist about tomorrow.

[Kat]

And you know, I gotta tell you, usually my backlash comes from men. I very, very rarely have a woman. Sometimes I do.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Kat]

But very rarely have a woman say something to me. But usually it's men.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

And what are. Why are they saying it's inappropriate?

[Kat]

I don't know. They don't tell me why, but they're like, oh, you know, maybe you should delete this word. Or you have some really X rated episodes and you're talking o openly about it and do you feel comfortable? And I'm like, yes, I do, because I feel it's my job. As a communicator.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yes.

[Kat]

Journalist. And as a woman.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

No, you're literally doing a service. Yes, yes.

[Kat]

So I push back. And like you said, if I, at this point, I'm like, you know what? If you don't want to do business with me, I probably don't want to do business with you because I want to do business with men that are proud of women speaking up about important issues. And you are proof of it. I mean, you did TEDx talks. It's an important issue.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yes, yes, yes, yes to everything. So. Well, and it's interesting because I'm really thinking, I'm like, if I'm going to give advice to people in this position out there, I really will say turn it around on people, acknowledge that they're uncomfortable, and then say, why? Why is this me? And so often, especially if it's men, they're gonna say, well, I'm not uncomfortable. You'll be like, oh, oh, that's interesting. You really seem uncomfortable. You sound uncomfortable. What do you think's going on? Why are these topics so uncomfortable for you? I actually bet some of them are going to pause and reflect on that and give you some really interesting insights. So. And then maybe they might be like, oh, yeah, this is my issue. This is not your issue.

[Kat]

Yeah, I love that. So for women out there listening, if they are embarrassed when it comes to talking about sex, not just like, in public, like you and me, because I know it's our job, but let's say with their partners. Right. Because I'm sure you know better than anybody, there's so many couples out there where the, the woman or the man as well, but the woman is so unhappy. Yeah. Unfulfilled sexually because she's so embarrassed to actually open her mouth and say, look, this is what I want. This is what I like.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Kat]

So any tips? Like, what would be a first step?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah, the first step that comes to my mind is find out what are you most afraid of? Because that's like, identify. Are you afraid of that you're going to get judged? Are you afraid that you're going to go to hell? Are you afraid, um, that your, your partner's gonna get mad at you? Are you afraid that you're gonna hurt their feelings or you're going to embarrass them? Are you. Have you tried this in the past and it didn't go well? Like, really identify what it is and get clear on that. And like I said before, you know, I'm all about, like, feeling our emotions in us, the somatic aspect, because when we feel uncomfortable things, that's what we then avoid. We Want to avoid whatever we're feeling. And so I encourage people to, like, move into that feeling. You know, move into the discomfort. Embrace it. Get clear on what you're most afraid of. Even do some writing on it. And then start the conversation in that place and actually say to your partner, I don't mean to embarrass you here, or I don't mean to hurt your feelings here, or I'm hoping this doesn't make you mad, or I'm hoping this doesn't disappoint you. Whatever you're most afraid of, actually own it up front and say, I'm really. I have a conversation I need to bring up. This is something that matters to me. I'm afraid to bring it up. Cause I don't want to do it wrong, and I don't want to hurt your feelings. Like, own all of that.

[Kat]

Speak up.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah. And own. Like, that's starting. People are like, I'm afraid. And so I don't know where to start. I'm like, start with the fear. Own the fear. Own your insecurity. And then say it to your partner. And if you're in. If you're with a partnership and somebody who cares about you, if your partner comes to you and you be like, I have something important to talk about. I'm actually nervous to talk about this because I don't want to do it wrong. And I'm afraid you're going to judge me or think I'm weird or something. You'd be like, oh, shit, okay. Yeah, okay, give it to me. Like, what's going on? You disarm the person. You also let them know. I'm like, hey, this is a different conversation than we normally have. And it's like. It's like a preemptive strike of sorts. And you kind of prepare them and then hopefully get them then to be more vulnerable because you were just vulnerable. And then say, hey, you know, I really like our sexy time. And I was listening to this podcast and they were talking about this thing that I didn't know people did or this new vibrator to try, and I thought it would be fun. And we haven't tried anything like that in a long time. And I love what we're doing, but, like, you know, we're all both in ever aging bodies.

[Kat]

Let's spice it up.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah. And like, my body, you know, I'm aging and I don't orgasm like I used to. So, like, can we try a new toy? Like, it'd be fun. So just be really like. Like, Kind and vulnerable in your approach.

[Kat]

I think, at least that's my opinion. If you're the right, right partner, even if it's something they don't want to do, they're still going to be supportive and proud of you for the fact that you're speaking up.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Ideally, yes, they can see, and it really is in the tone of voice and the words, because it's really easy to communicate the same general information, but make them feel defensive or attack them or bring it up at the really wrong time. And so just be really mindful and intentional around it.

[Kat]

So, and another suggestion that I give, tell me what you think about it. Because a lot of couples, you know, like, let's say you're in bed and you're doing whatever you're doing, or like I said, you're not having an orgasm, or you're not. Not your partner's not fulfilling you in whatever thing you're doing. They're embarrassed to say something right there and then. But my suggestion is don't try to talk about sex when you're having sex. Like, maybe if you're having a romantic dinner or happy hour or something like before, like, looking at the person's eyes. Because if the person, like, if your partner likes your idea, whatever you're talking about, it might even become foreplay.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Ideally, yes. I remember one of the times this was several years ago. I was saying this to a woman who was probably in her late 50s, and she's like, well, so, you know, how do I bring up these conversations with my husband? I was like, well, it's probably. Might not be best in the moment, but like, you know, the next morning over breakfast, she's like, you want me to talk about sex over breakfast? I was like, yeah, yeah. Over your coffee and. Yeah, your bagel. I was like, yes, go for it. She was so horrified at that thought. But I do think it's easier when we are, because we are so vulnerable in sex already. And it can be easier to want to put our defenses up. So I think, you know, a really good time is like, when you're starting to doze off a little bit. People's defenses are down. They can be a little more cuddly. You'd be like, hey.

[Kat]

Or maybe they use that excuse. The next morning, I was kind of sleepy. I don't remember. You said, I know.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I totally remember that when I was younger, like, falling asleep and saying to, like, a boyfriend. And I'm like, I love you. And we haven't said it yet to each other. And I was like he didn't hear me. He's sleeping.

[Kat]

Hopefully he didn't hear me. I love you. Yeah. My approach is like, I think during a romantic dinner, romantic happy hour, that's the time that I would pick.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I think so too. And some people I could see, they'd be afraid that someone could overhear their conversation. So make sure it's in a more private place where you feel relaxed and comfortable. And then people are like, really? Really? You're bringing up anal sex for the first time. We got people right.

[Kat]

Listening.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

So, you know, be mindful in that ways. But yeah, when you feel connected, when you feel bonded and then, and then bring it up in that really like vulnerable way.

[Kat]

Yeah. You also mentioned something that I think is so important. You use the word fear and I know so many people are afraid of speaking up. I was in a miserable marriage for 14 years because my husband was very conservative and he was very abusive. And at the time I didn't notice. Right. He was very controlling, so I couldn't speak up. I had the shittiest, shittiest, almost non existence sex life for 14 years, if you guys can believe that. And it took me all that long to gather the courage and get out of the marriage and start my life over. And I am a firm believer that you're, like you said the first time, if you try to speak up and you're afraid, it's very difficult. But once you start speaking up, it is so empowering because you realize it gives you strength and it gives you control of your life.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah. A sense of agency, like, oh, I.

[Kat]

Can enact positive changes and then you're always gonna do it. So I, the key is like, if you, if you are strong enough to say, you know what, I'm gonna speak up the first time.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Kat]

After that it gets easier and easier and easier.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah. And if you, something that can help you get the courage to do it the first time, like generally what we're most afraid of is like what we're going to be feeling in that moment. And so practice it ahead of time. Like actually sit, spend five minutes, think about what you're going to say and how you're going to say. You're going to feel all of the things as if you're actually in it. Your brain doesn't know the difference, so you're going to feel it and then breathe through it and you're like, okay.

[Kat]

I can do this.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I've had in the past when I was working with clients when they had to like break up with somebody and they're like, oh, my God, he's gonna start crying. It's gonna be horrible. So I would have her, like, practice it ahead of time on her own. And then she's like, okay, yeah, he might start crying, and that's okay. And that sucks for him. But, like, I don't have to back down, and I know I'm doing the right thing for me, and I can keep moving forward. He's not gonna change my mind. And so actually do. I mean, as silly as sort of, you know, quote unquote, role playing is really is a. It's a practice for our emotions and our. Practice then to stay present in the moment.

[Kat]

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I think it's a great idea. Practice what you're gonna say first, but say it.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah, yeah. And then speak it up. And then when it feels like. Yeah, when it feels like not as scary, then go and speak it up.

[Kat]

Now you talk about something. And I know I'm a little bit different than most people, but I want your opinion. It's even on your website. I think how to get. Get set or feel sexy again in your late 40s or your 50s now, maybe because of my marriage. Right. I didn't feel sexy. I thought, oh, I think that's what happens when you're married for a long time. You're not supposed to have good sex anymore. You're not supposed to have sex anymore. I guess this is all normal. Like, I totally, like, discarded myself. I took myself out of the game. And once I got done with the marriage and I started my life over, I was like, wait a minute. I don't think so. I love to have great sex with my partner. We deserve to have great, fulfilling sex lives and all that good stuff. So for me, I'm just saying, me, Kat, my experience, the more I age, the better it gets because I speak up. I know what I want in a partner. I know what I don't want. And I'm never. I know I'm never gonna accept to have a relationship with such shitty sex like I did in my marriage. Yes. So when I hear women and men also, by the way, this is really important. Let's about that for a minute. Because I have guy friends in their 50s, and they're like, oh, I don't have the stamina anymore. Oh, I don't really care about anymore. And girls like, oh, I'm never gonna have good sex. I'm like, what do you mean? You should be having the best sex of your life.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Right. Are they in? Are they single? Are they in long term relationships? Both.

[Kat]

Both. I hear that all the time. I get messages from people all over the world because of the podcast. Yeah. And they're literally saying single people and people in relationship. Oh, I'm too old for this. Oh, I'm like 47. Oh no, my prime is gone. Oh, I've already done. And I'm like, what? Your life should be starting. It should get better every year.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yes. And it changes because our bodies really go through change. Like I'm 51, so I'm in the midst of perimenopause right now and crazy hormone shifts and such. And my orgasms changed and arousal has changed. And these are very real things. And I talked to my partner about it, like all the time because I was like, I'm not gonna suffer with this alone. And he's seeing, if he's seeing shifts in me. I'm like, no, we're a team in this together. And I want him to know what my body's doing. I want him to care about it. I want to talk about this so we can keep keeping it alive and fresh and fun. Even despite very real changes. When he's super stressed with work, his sex drive is definitely down. So I'm like, but we need to work as a team with this.

[Kat]

As most men, right? If they're like, their stress level is super high, it's harder for them to should be super excited about having sex.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I want to speak also because you were like saying like a 47 year old person is like, well, it's done for my life. And I'm like, there's such, like, there's such beautiful research on folks on older couples like in their 80s who have been very intentional. And the only reason that their intimacy is so good is because they learned, however many decades earlier to actually have these uncomfortable conversations and to keep talking about it. And that in and of itself is intimacy. You know, everything I talk about, like sex is part of intimacy, but also emotional connection, mental connection, being vulnerable, being raw, creating that safe space for your partner. That is all like the core of that is what will create lasting sexual intimacy with your partner. Even if nobody's getting an erection and there's no penetration happening.

[Kat]

Because there are a lot of other things that can be done so much.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

There's so many ways to get pleasure with our bodies together. So part of it is just not being as goal oriented and thinking outside the box. And if you're, if you're giving up at a much younger age, please know it actually can get better. It'll look different. It might feel different. But fundamentally, you know, at the end of our lives, people don't regret that they didn't, you know, work more or make more money. They regret that they didn't have the courage to be more vulnerable and to have a depth of emotional connections with people closest to them. Like, that's what really matters to us as humans. And sex is an important part of that. And. But how sex looks can change over time, and that's okay.

[Kat]

It's such an important part of it. Right? And it breaks my heart that it's so. It's such a stigma. Like you said, this day and age. I think it's one of the most natural antidepressants. It gives you energy, all that good stuff, Right? I'm not even a doctor, but I'm a huge advocate for women and men, everybody having happy, fulfilling sex lives. But it's unbelievable how people see it. Like you said, we're saying the beginning, something dirty and wrong and right.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

When you start with that foundation, and then you hit a roadblock, and then you hit a roadblock that maybe you try to address, and it doesn't work, Then it's just like, I get why people just want to put a big wall up and be like, no, I'm fine without it. No, I don't need it. I guess this is because they're like. Because it's still so taboo in our country, it's hard to know where to find good resources and what is a path forward because you've got to pull back physical pieces and medical pieces and emotional pieces and relational pieces and, like, do that hard digging. I don't know. I can't think of anybody, though, that has done that type of hard work and hasn't been so appreciative that they had the courage to do it.

[Kat]

Oh, my God. I know. So, okay, somebody out there is gonna listen. And, guys, I never thought I would say this, but this Black Friday. Instead of buying more stuff I don't need, I decided to invest in my sex life instead. We all know Black Friday is about deals, but what would you rather do? Do, spend hundreds of dollars in stuff you don't need or 69 bucks on improving your sex life? Yes. @beducated.com Real Talk. No one ever really teaches us how to be amazing in bed. We're just supposed to figure it out somehow, right? Well, that's exactly what I thought until I found Educated. I started exploring their courses because I wanted to understand not just pleasure, but connection. And it completely Changed how I see intimacy. I learned and simple, real techniques that make you more confident, more in tune with your partner, and honestly more empowered in your own body. Beducated is a safe space for all. And that's my favorite part. No matter relationship status, sexual orientation or gender. So if you're ready to level up your love and sex life solo or with a partner, go to beducate.me Cat 69. That's my code. Cat K A T 69. To get, get 65 off the yearly pass. That's their biggest discount of the year and it's completely risk free. 14 day money back guarantee. So go to beducate me cat 69 and give yourself a gift that will last. That's what they're gonna say, they're gonna send a message, but I just don't feel the desire anymore or I'm embarrassed of my body. Or guys, they say like, oh, you know, I, I have to take Viagra. You know, they come up with a million excuses. Yeah. So what would be an easy first step to change this game?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Actually, I'm going to start with the question I said before. Like, again, what are you most afraid of? Are you afraid of being shamed by somebody? Do you feel shame for yourself? You afraid of being judged? You afraid of disappointing someone? You're afraid of disappointing yourself? You're afraid of not feeling like a man? What is it? Because we have to get to what is the fundamental belief system that the narrative that you have probably inherited from around you that has become your own though, and has become your truth. And when we realize, like we all write these stories, they feel like our truth. They don't have to be. We absolutely can write new sexual and intimacy stories for ourselves so that. But the starting point is like, what are you most afraid of? What are you insecure about? What's blocking you? And once people identify that and like actually feel it and they're like, oh, yeah, then no, that feels horrible. Like I, yeah, no wonder I don't want to talk about this and avoid it. But like, that isn't in and of itself. Starts building a sense of agency. Like, oh, maybe I can do something. Oh, so you know, if I'm working with a client like this, I was like, well, what friend can you talk to and maybe talk about and then realize, oh my gosh, like, like we have something in common here and we're just, we're looking. The more we normalize it, which is where we started this conversation, the easier it is to realize the resources that are out there. And have the courage to keep trying new things and then to think outside the box. Because we really need to be creative.

[Kat]

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[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

And I've heard that they don't have great sex because they're insecure about other bodies.

[Kat]

So when I get a message, I even have girlfriends that are really beautiful. And I'm not kidding, I, I hear this all the time. Oh, but I'm so embarrassed. The first time I'm with a new guy. Oh my God, I gotta lose 10 pounds. I gotta do this. I gotta. I'm like, are you kidding? I don't think when the guy likes you and you, you are in bed with a guy and he takes your clothes off and he has a heart on, pardon my French. I don't think he's gonna think, oh yeah, she should lose 5, 10 pounds. They're enjoying the whole package, the whole experience.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

And the thing is when. And we have been taught by our society to judge ourselves, to fear judgment by other. Like at this very, very, you know, I keep pointing to my chest at this very fundamental, like, self worth. Like, like we feel that in our chest and our solar plexus. We feel our self worth and our lack of self worth and the fear of judgment in that way. And so we carry that so Strong around our bodies. But the funny thing is consistently when I've talked to men, I'm like, what makes for the best sexual encounter with a woman? They're like, when she's not self conscious and when she's like passionate and just.

[Kat]

Losing herself in the moment.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

And so like literally what we've been taught to fear around our bodies and judgment interferes with what we think. Folks are judging us for our bodies, but like, no, they're actually judging us for being insecure and not having passion. And I get that's a difficult shift to make, but just know that for real, that is consistently what I hear. They want somebody who's into it. They want somebody who's passionate and into it and like enjoying themselves, enjoying getting pleasure and giving pleasure.

[Kat]

Yeah. And I think for me that's why I always say, I think everything starts with, with self love, right? Because if you love yourself, you look at yourself in the mirror like, you know what? I adore every little bit and piece of me. That's the. No, we all, there's parts that we hate like, oh my God, look at the cellulite. Oh my God, look at that, look at that. But in as a whole, you gotta love yourself.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah. So what I like to encourage because I know sometimes with affirmations, especially for like, you know, when I've worked with women over the years and I want to tell them be like, oh yeah, do the affirmation every day. And like this mantra like, I, you know, I love myself. I'm all parts of my are beautiful. And then I was like. And then I look at him as I'm saying, and I was like, oh yeah, you totally have that little voice in your head that's saying bullshit, you.

[Kat]

Know, no, but you gotta believe.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

So what I have to believe. So what I think is most helpful. And I think this actually overrides the bullshit responses our brain is to tell. You have a mantra that says, I'm on the journey to believing I'm a beautiful woman. I'm on the journey to believing I'm worthy. And every time I've made that shift with folks that are like, oh yeah, no, I can't argue with that. Like, I am. I was like, you're here and maybe you want to be here and maybe we'll only get you here, but you know what? You're on the journey. And so I realized that I think that like the continuum versus the binary seems to help people and it overrides them. Their, you know, their brain and their belief systems fighting them on what they're trying to move towards.

[Kat]

I'm sure. But I personally think everything, at least for me, like when I meet a guy in bed or out of bed, if they are, like you said, insecure or nervous about who they are, to me, that's a total turn off. I know a million times more than, like the physical beauty. I like secure people. I like people that I notice. They have this energy. Like, I love myself, I love my work, I love my life. That's what usually I'm attracted to. And I think, like you were saying, most guys are the same when they go on a date with a girl. It's not so much the perfection like so many women think. Right. It's more like if you exude that energy that, you know, I like me, I like my game. Yeah.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

And that doesn't mean, especially for men, like, confidence doesn't mean that you just plow your way through something assuming that you know what this other person wants or needs. Like, confidence is actually having the courage to ask, to be like, so you want me to do this? I would love to do this. How do you feel about that? Yeah. Is this working for you? So you can still inquire and be a team in what you're creating there and not make assumptions and still be incredibly confident.

[Kat]

Not to mention, I know a lot of people are shy when it comes to talking in bed, speaking in bed. I love it. I don't like to have silent sex.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I don't mean to.

[Kat]

Drives me a little crazy. I had an ex boyfriend. The sex was okay. It was good. I'm not gonna say it was bad. It was good. It wasn't the best. But he was silent the entire time.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Even when he's about to come.

[Kat]

Even when he came, I only knew he was coming because his breathing would.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Change up a little.

[Kat]

And then finally, after we were together for many months, he started letting go. And then he told me because he was same. He was married for so long and the wife was so conservative. He even opened up to me in bed, like, she wouldn't even do it doggy style. He was like, oh. At one time I asked in 25 years of Marri marriage, I cannot imagine that it was kind of like mine. 25 years of marriage. One time he told her, like, can we do it like doggy style? And she threw a fit. So he. It was hard for him to even like, you know, say I'm coming or anything, right? And I was so bored because I love talking, I love hearing dirty stuff.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I like saying, know that it's working too. That you're like, you're all having fun and. Yeah.

[Kat]

And I like to talk and I like to hear the guy saying to me what he wants to do and.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

All that good stuff, you know, it's like, oh, my God. Amazingly, yes.

[Kat]

Spices things up.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Right?

[Kat]

So I think that's a good tip right there and there. Speak up, people.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yes. And again, like anything else, like, why are you afraid of it? And like this guy, it was so much.

[Kat]

But why do you think people are afraid?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Well, he learned to be afraid. Right. He was in a relationship where when he did try to speak up, he absolutely. She freaked out. So, like, that's just smart that he learned to stop doing it.

[Kat]

It was like me, like my marriage. Yes. The sex was really, really, really, really boring. Really boring. Like, think like a blow job and a little missionary and that's it. So the maybe one or once or twice in 15 years that I would try to say something like I was a. Oh, my God, you're such a. You know, I can't believe. Seriously, I would be. He would call me names.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Kat]

So, yeah, I was like, okay, I'm gonna shut up.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah. Like, oh, yeah, that's super jarring in.

[Kat]

The moment, but hopefully we're talking to people that are with supportive partners.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah. Ideally, I do think, I mean, I get. People stay in long term relationships and marriages for a lot of reasons and sometimes they choose things that they want to compromise on and sacrifice. And like, sexual communication is often one of those, because otherwise you've got a nice house and you've got kids and you do your vacations and you got your friends together. And so. But I do think, you know, when folks generally, you know, have the courage to have a conversation or go to a counselor, therapist, or coach or like, hey, I think we need to separate because this isn't working. Like doing something, you got to shake it up somehow because it's not going to change on its own.

[Kat]

Yes, I agree. And I know because like I said, I'm a living example. It takes so much ball, so much courage to either speak up or get out of it. It say, you know, oh my God. But once you do, it's so empowering.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yes.

[Kat]

Once you know what you want. Yeah. And you, you feel like comfortable telling your partner all of it and, you know, you're not gonna settle for a shitty relationship or shitty sex.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Your life is different.

[Kat]

Yes.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

And that's a lot of it. I actually was just talking to a friend and colleague really recently, and she just Got out of a four year relationship and she said she, she kind of, she ended it, she grieved it after a week and then was like. I could tell by the way she was saying it. I think she got a sense of like, what was I do? You know? Cause then once you're out of it and then you're like, what was I doing?

[Kat]

Exactly?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Like, that was not the. That's not what I want. And we need space sometimes to be able to do that and then realize.

[Kat]

Oh my God, yes, yes, it's tough. Let's talk about masturbation for a minute because we're talking about sex with a partner. But if you're single or even if you are with a partner, let's talk to the single people out there, such as myself. I don't like doing casual sex. I've done it, I've tried a bunch of times. It's not for me, it's not fulfilling. I'm a major sapiosexual. Like you were saying to me, I need that connection big time. That's the only thing that turns me on. So I'm like, okay, I don't want casual sex. So when I'm in between relationships, I mean, I'm a huge advocate for masturbation. I love it. I think it's so important and same thing, it breaks my heart when I see what taboo it is. We cannot even talk about it on social media.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I mean, that is way more taboo in general than sex in terms of how people feel about it and react to it.

[Kat]

They feel more embarrassed. I've had girlfriends that confessed to me that they never even used the vibrator. They're like, oh my God, why do you think that is? And again, how do we break the stigma?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Oh, having conversations like this, first of all. So good job.

[Kat]

She high five. We almost, we fist bump. Fist bumped.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Oh, gosh. I mean, you know, like I said, I'll go back to being a sociologist for folks that are embarrassed of masturbating feel like they shouldn't do it, feel like it's inappropriate or like, I know years ago I talked to somebody that they would masturbate and then after they were done, they would feel so embarrassed and they just like shove their vibrator under their bed. And then I was like, oh, I hope you clean that thing at some point. Give me a little dust bunnies on it. But again, it's looking at, you know, sociologically looking at. We're not born with this shame around this. Like, we clearly have been taught it. And so and internalize these messages, that we literally feel them as if they're our truth. Like this story becomes our truth. So where did you learn them? Who taught it to you? And that shining a bright light on it helps you realize. Every time I do a process like this with folks, they're like, oh yeah, that's totally where it came from. And that's someone else's bullshit. That was society's shame. That was that politician's bullshit. That was this religious leader's like, own view on things. That's some old outdated religion. That was my mom passing on her fears. That was my dad being insecure. Like, you can see it's everyone else's stuff. And often they're actually trying to protect you or they're trying to do the best by you. But they got bad education and they carry a lot of negative emotions and beliefs around and they've passed it on. So I really do think of like looking at as a story that you've inherited from others or that others have imposed on you and forced on you. And then really like, I don't want this to be my story anymore. And like, really start thinking, like, what's possible? What would you like, like how. Who, what type of sexual person do you want to be? What type of pleasure do you want to experience? How do you want to speak up about these things? And then bit by bit, start practicing it, start talking to people about it, start seeking out information and learning. And this is like anything, like anything, you know, I had, you know, one of my things I like to give couples. And if one person really wants to talk about sex and the other person wants to avoid conversations, I make them have a Sunday night conversation at like 8 o' clock for like 20 minutes every week. They have to have it. And I remember talking to a client the one time and I was like. And she was the one that did not want the conversation. And it was after a month of four weeks of doing it. And I was like, how's your Sunday night sex check in? And she's like, ugh, I still don't like it, but I don't dread it as much as I used to. And that's it. And that's. I mean, it is building resilience. We are building comfort with discomfort. And we do that by stepping out of our comfort zones a little bit at a time and a little bit at a time and practicing new ways of speaking and acting still till it starts to become more normal for us.

[Kat]

Yeah. And I. Because for guys it's so normal. Right. I think every guy in the world masturbates. They just. It's an animal instinct.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

They were raised in very religious households, and they have heavy shame and embarrassment around it.

[Kat]

A lot of men. Yeah. But they still do it.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Most of them do.

[Kat]

But I think for women, maybe because we usually need the help of the vibrator, not every woman can make themselves come with their fingers. And it's so much easier to vibrate. A lot of them are embarrassed, like, oh, my God, I'm gonna get a vibrator.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

And we're not touching ourselves every day like boys are with their penises.

[Kat]

But you should. I think you should touch your body. You should know your body. I think if you know how to give yourself pleasure, it's gonna be so much more fun when you are with your partner. Right. And there is no excuse. Cause nowadays you can buy vibrator online. You don't have to go to the store.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah, yeah. And you can. Yeah. Start, start, start with cheap ones. Try it out. See what vibration you like, like the buzzy or the thuddy, and start trying them out. And then you can integrate that in. Into your interactions with a partner.

[Kat]

I love that. I absolutely love that. And I get that question from a lot of men, believe it or not. They're like, oh, I would. Because girls would love to play with the Their toys in bed, but the guys are too embarrassed to, because the guys would like that too. And very few men are confident enough to say, hey, bring your toys to bed. Let's have fun. I've actually had guys say, oh, is she gonna compare the vibrator with my penis?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I know.

[Kat]

Have you heard that word?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yes, still. And it's crazy because that was. Older generations would say, they'd be like, well, you're trying to replace me. You don't need my penis then. And I'm like, buddy, you're missing the point here. Like, you're working as a team together to enhance chance pleasure. So, yeah, so I do. Right. Toys can be very intimidating to men because they're like, wait, I thought that was my job. Use the toys.

[Kat]

Yeah, but it's so childish. I don't think anybody's gonna compare the penis with the toys. Two completely different things, guys. You know, we're not trying to replace your penis.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

And the thing is, vibrators, at least 80 of the time, we're using them on our clits anyway. Like, that's the thing. You're not like, rubbing a dick up on your in that way for as long as you need to.

[Kat]

Calm down.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

So, yeah, it's not a comparison.

[Kat]

That's a. And it's a fun conversation. And I think it's a fantasy that most. Most couples would like to do. Like to try out. Right?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

You mean like masturbating in front of each other?

[Kat]

Yeah, masturbating in front of each other and playing with toys in front of each other.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Yes.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I. I don't know that I'd say most couple, only because I work with couples, like, across a broad range of. Of backgrounds and wealth levels and ages and religions and such. But I think it's probably common that at least one person in a couple has some curiosity about it. But what's, like, you know what I love? What is it? Mojo Upgrade. Do you know that website? And I'm sure there's other ones now, right, where folks can go out there and they can. With their partners, they can go on separate, like phones or laptops. They can answer all of these sexual interest questions, and then it emails them, but it only emails the ones that you have in common and you overlap.

[Kat]

So if you're a. I never heard of that.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Like, I don't want my partner to know I'm into golden showers. But they're only going to find out if they're into golden showers. And then you're like, son of a bitch, we're both in the golden showers.

[Kat]

What is it called?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Mojo Upgrade.

[Kat]

Mojo Upgrade.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

That's to double check. I'm pretty sure that's the website.

[Kat]

Okay, we'll double check. If it's not, I will put a. An addendum to this episode.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Perfect.

[Kat]

But that's a great idea.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yes. And then that's. And then. It's been a while. It was a while ago, I probably at least five years ago that I had filled it out with a previous partner, and I remember going through it and I was like. Like some bitch. I've been in this field for, like, almost 30 years, and I don't even know what all these things are. So I think you can take, like, a light version or a heavy version of it. So it could be a bit daunting, but super interesting.

[Kat]

Yeah, that's. That's a great idea.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I love that.

[Kat]

Never heard of it, but next time in a relationship, I'll definitely bring that up.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah.

[Kat]

Oh, my God. Before we run out of time, because this is also a dating show, I want to ask your opinion, because this is a question I've been getting. Getting tons and tons and tons lately, and I don't Know if it's because of the dating app. The dating culture changed so much, Right. Because the dating apps have just gives everyone so much availability out there. Nowadays you have a lot of men. We're talking about grown up men in their 40s, in their 50s, and we're not talking about like 20 year olds, we're talking about grown ass men. They will go through the dating app. Like they say they meet you. Okay. And then they're like, oh, I like you, I want to be in relationship, blah, blah, blah. They take you on, on like so many dates. Yeah. Wine and dine and all this. But what they really, really want is to get you to have sex with them. And then once final. Because a lot of women write, oh, I go on five, six, seven, eight dates. I really like this guy. Finally.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yes.

[Kat]

Like me. After a certain point, I want to know if I have chemistry. That guy.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yes.

[Kat]

I'm not the team, like, oh, wait, six months to have sex. Believe it or not, there's a bunch of matchmakers that come on this show and they're like, oh, don't have sex before you're engaged. Don't have sex before six months. I'm like, what?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I can't. The number side in the past, anytime I work with clients and they're generally, because they've come from very Christian backgrounds, folks that wait until they have sex, get married. And they're not like 19, but they're like late 20s or later. They almost always have some kind of sexual dysfunction or they have very low desire. Like they have like. You need to know that this stuff earlier on if sex matters to you.

[Kat]

Yeah. Okay, so back to the question. So you want to guess what point you want to find out if you have chemistry with that person.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yes.

[Kat]

So they have sex and the guy disappears.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

No. After eight days.

[Kat]

Yes. Some girls say after five dates. Some girls say after six dates. Some girls, whatever number of dates, even if it's two dates, there are so many men out there like this. I don't know. Is this like the Peter Pan syndrome? Is this like, oh, it's just a conquest. What is going on with this dude?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I mean that's, that's literally what it sounds like they're doing. I mean, unless there was something. But they do. They like just ghost and don't write anymore.

[Kat]

Yeah, it happens. I get. It happens to my girlfriends. It has happened to me once. Oh my God, it happened. I get messages. I'm not kidding. I get messages from people all over the world saying that, that women do that too. But of course, men do that much.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

So I've only ever heard of that, like after, you know, one date, two dates or three dates. But not anything that was more sustained. And so it seems like you're both building into this thing together. You're digging each other, they're spending money, they're spending time. I actually have not.

[Kat]

That's, that's like.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

It hurts. Like it hurts my heart.

[Kat]

Yes, exactly.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Because that's got it. Then you're like, am I crazy?

[Kat]

Yeah, I think like, okay, you're a douche. Obviously you're a player. Why would you do that?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

And then literally just seems like, like a, like a game. It really does feel like a power game. And that it is all building up that anticipation. Because I'm wondering if some of these men, they actually like it to drag out because it's, they are, they are playing the game. They're love bombing the woman, they're building her up. They're probably genuinely enjoying the time, but it is all building up to this excitement of them, like eventually, like conquering them or winning. And then I wonder if afterwards there's just this like, drop in dopamine and there's like this crash and then they're like, yeah, and I'm done here. But that is such an asshole thing to do because this is another human being in front of you who you've spent time getting to know and shared emotions and vulnerabilities with. And then you treat them that way. Like that is never okay.

[Kat]

I completely agree. It's such a douchey, horrible thing to do, right?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yes.

[Kat]

But I don't know. Like, I'm not kidding. I get so many messages from girls asking me, why are men doing that? I said, I, I think, yeah, it's because a lot of men at these ages, they are, you know, becoming this insecure, immature a holes again because of this. So much availability of women out there.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

On the weird date. I could see if you're having sex on the first or second date, but to prolong it for so long, like, that's the thing that doesn't make sense to me. Like there's a lot of emotional and financial investment and time in that. Like, who has time for all of that? Like, just go find somebody to have sex. Sex for the night. Like what? And maybe they like sex with more of an emotional connection, but only once. I don't know. It's really interesting.

[Kat]

I'm gonna. Crazy. Yeah.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

It's very upsetting.

[Kat]

It's very upsetting. Guys, stop doing that.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

If you're out there and you're one of these guys who does this, please grow up. Yes. But at least send a message. If you don't want to see anybody, at least don't ghost. Yeah, you can always choose when you don't want to date anybody anymore. But have some respect for the fellow human. Human in front of you and some compassion for how they feel and how it's literally crazy making when you do shit like that.

[Kat]

I love that compassion. I think, yeah, we should respect each other, right?

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

At least you don't have to keep dating the person. You don't have to, like, the person.

[Kat]

Maybe the sex sucked.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Like, who knows? But it is a fellow human being in front of you that has needs and desires and struggles and suffers just like you. So, like, just have some common humanity.

[Kat]

I love that. Before I let you go, I loved your book From Mindfulness, From Madness to Mindfulness.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

I've had friends joke. They're like, we're gonna call it From Madness, From Mindfulness to madness from Dr. Jen story.

[Kat]

But it's very interesting and there's 10 million points, and I highly recommend you guys read it. It's a very easy, very fun read. It's available on Amazon. I'm putting the link of your website on this episode so you guys, Guys, everybody can see your amazing work. But from the whole book, if it's possible.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Like, one final message, because I know there's so many people out there that want to have great sex lives, that want to speak up, all of these things that we talked about, but they don't know how to start. So maybe one fantastic first step or a word of encouragement.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Well, and this. I think this. Yeah. Encapsulates everything we've talked about because the book is From Madness to Mindfulness Reinvention Sex for Women. And the madness is literally everything we've just been talking about and that we're taught this growing up and as women, and we have these experiences, yet we're supposed to have these amazing sex lives and be passionate and desirous and orgasmic all the time. That's madness. And so then I teach basic mindfulness skills, which is everything I've been talking about. Like, looking at the story, feel the emotions in you, have the courage to sit with it, do journaling on it, figured out where you learned these messages growing up. Up. If there's one little thing to boil it down to, I would just say it can be different. If it's not working for you and you're not happy or you're not satisfied. It can be different. And trust that and believe that and you're worthy of that.

[Kat]

I'm leaving proof. I'm leaving proof that it can be different. You can always start over. You can always pick up and find the right partner for you. Right. Thank you so much. Was such an honor having. You're fun. You're amazing. You're beautiful, you're intelligent. You're the whole package. Thank you.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

My boyfriend thinks it, too. Thank you.

[Kat]

Guys. Be safe out there. And like you said, respect each other.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Right?

[Kat]

Thank you so much. Much love. We'll come back very soon.

[Dr. Jennifer Gonzalez]

Yay.