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- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with a name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [00:22]
B
Nicole, welcome to Cut on the Loose.
- [00:24]
C
Hi. Thanks so much.
- [00:26]
B
I'm excited, I'm very excited to speak with you. I was reading your book last night. I love it. So congratulations.
- [00:35]
C
Oh, thank you. I'm bracing myself for feedback.
- [00:40]
B
Okay, so it's. I love it, by the way. I read the entire book, like last night before I went to sleep. Like, super fun, quick read. But I want to start asking about the name. The name of the book, if you guys are listening to the audio episode, is please don't say you're sorry. So what do you mean? Why'd you pick this name?
- [01:00]
C
You know, I have been a divorce lawyer for 25 years and it's always part of the conversation. So it's, you know, you have, you have clients who apologize for not knowing their financials or clients who were embarrassed for whatever it is. And, and then there's this element of victim mindset that comes with the words apologize. Like when you, you're saying you're sorry, it makes you think that you've death in the family there, you know, I understand the spirit of an apology, but most of the times in my area of practice, and especially when I went through my own divorce, the thing I did not want to hear was an apology. And on top of that, you know, I grew up with a mom who apologized for everything, and still she was on my podcast and she apologized for everything all the time. And even if she wasn't sorry. And so, so it's sits with me for lots of different reasons. But when I went through my divorce, it definitely was, you know, it was the perfect title.
- [02:07]
B
I've had this habit, by the way, for the longest, longest time. And a lot of people said to me, including same when I was married, when my husband was alive, he was always like, you say I'm sorry for everything even when you don't have to say sorry. So nowadays I try to catch myself, like, yeah, we shouldn't apologize for every little tiny thing. So I'm definitely not 100% cured, so to speak. But I'm getting there.
- [02:34]
C
You have to decide, like, when the words. I think it's because we're women that, you know, I feel like women do it more than men, but that I catch my friends that will be having a conversation and they'll apologize for something, and I love that they'll go, oh, no, I'm not sorry for that. Like, I'm good.
- [02:51]
B
The words, sorry, not sorry, right?
- [02:54]
C
I, you know, sorry, not sorry.
- [02:57]
B
So you wrote one thing that I want to talk about because I think that's so important, and it is. You said, and I love the phrase that you wrote, never apologize for placing our happiness first. Now, I know a lot of women like myself, right? I don't know if you know my background, if you watch my videos, but I was married for 15 years. It was a horrible marriage. Super abusive, super controlling. I talk about it all the time on the podcast, and it took me 15 years to get the courage to get out of it, because just the thought of putting myself first, like you, I used to feel so guilty. So guilty. Of course, there was the emotional blackmail and everything, but I always felt like if I leave this man, then he's gonna drink himself to death, what he did anyways. But. But I was always feeling so, so guilty. I could not imagine the thought of actually doing that. And I know now through my journey that I. We deserve to put our happiness first. And it's very empowering, and I think every woman deserves that. But again, so many women are like me. They stay miserable marriages, miserable relationships, because they cannot imagine. Like, the guilt just eats you alive. So how do you overcome that?
- [04:17]
C
You know, it's so funny that you mentioned that particular quote in the book, because it was one of the ones I had the hardest time with. And I remember when we first started promoting on Social, my agent wanted to use that quote, and I was like, oh, you know, the mom in me was going to be devastated at the. At what my kids would think about me putting myself first. And because they know I don't put myself first. So it had so much meaning for me. And I'm also still really careful about how I use it and when I use it. But it is true. And if, you know, if you aren't taking your. Taking care of yourself first, then you're likely to be less of what you want to be and who you want to be for those around you. And it. You have to retrain the way you think about happiness, about what makes you happy, about how to put yourself first. Like, and it means something different for everyone. So it's a. It's a hard lesson to learn, but then when you get there, you do realize, like, oh, I needed that rest even, you know, Even going to exercise when you. If you work, you know, going to exercise, we would put on the calendar, strategy, meeting or. Because you didn't want people to know that you were taking care of yourself before you were taking care of your clients or your staff. Isn't that funny that you, like, try to trick yourself when really what you're trying to do is take care of yourself so that you can better take care of others? Oh, my God.
- [05:54]
B
Yeah. Look, I know in my case, I always say, nowadays, I hope no woman. I Hope nobody takes 15 years to get out of a horrible relationship simply because life is too short. I think we all deserve to be happy or at the very least, peaceful. Peaceful, like have. Nowadays. That's my. My favorite word. I just live in peace, and that's all I wanted. But I hear that from men as well. Like, there are a lot of men that are super unhappy in their marriages because we talk about women. But I get messages and I talk to men all the time, that they wait many, many, many years until the kids go to college. They're out of the. They're like, oh, I feel so guilty because this woman, maybe she didn't have a job or she still loves me. No, no. But I want to start my life over. I want to be happy, and I'm not happy with her.
- [06:48]
C
I hear it all the time. About half of my client base, and we have. There are 44 attorneys. I practice with 44 attorneys, and most of us do family law. And we're in seven different offices. And I'll tell you, we're about half men and women from a client base. And the number of men who think they're going to stick it out because they're doing women favors, for lack of a better description, like, is that what you want your children to do? Is that how you want your children to be loved? Are you emulating. What are you modeling? What behavior is that that you're modeling? And I think sometimes also it's. They have this image of what they thought their life was supposed to be. Even if they're not happy in that marriage, the image is more important to them. What they think they want their children to see and their friends to see, when in fact, like, it's just. It's not what it is. And it's such. They're doing themselves, themselves such a disservice, you know?
- [07:49]
B
Like, again, I agree with you, and I use myself as an example. I think I did myself a huge disservice staying so long in such an abusive, miserable marriage because Again, I felt so, so guilty. And sometimes there's the peer pressure. You know, I remember my mom was alive at the time, and because my husband was so rich, the few times that I would try to say, you know, I want. I want to get out of this, like, I'm. I'm in pain. I'm so miserable. She would be like, don't rock the boat. You know?
- [08:17]
C
Rock the boat.
- [08:18]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [08:20]
C
And I know. Let me love them, tell them everything's gonna be okay. Yeah, I know it's. I mean, it's. But I don't. You know, I don't always understand the guilt. I understand all. I think I understand all the other pieces. You signed up for something and. But unless you're both working at it, it's going to be you figuring out how you're going to survive it and when it becomes. You know, obviously, domestic violence is a whole nother. You know, it's a whole nother space in this idea of abuse. Because, one, I always say, like, when someone says they've been abused, I always say, okay, let's talk about what that means to you. Because it's no longer physical abuse. There's so many other types of abuse, and unfortunately, real abuse can get watered down. When you're in this area of practice or when you're on the bench, it's hard for the judges and lawyers to know what. What abuse is. One, because of how it's defined. It can be very subjective. And two, because sometimes people use it as leverage to get ahead in their case, which makes me crazy. So first it's understanding what the abuse is, and then the impact it's having on. On. On you and your family and. And figuring out what you're going to do with it, because you are the only one you can change. And if both of you are not coming to the table ready to make that change, then you're going to be on your own one way or another.
- [09:56]
B
Yeah. No, listen, I agree. And when it comes to abuse, I think there's a lot of shame also. You know, a lot of. And you tell people. I know because. And I always use me. Of course, my story. When you tell people, a lot of people don't believe you. They're like, what do you mean? You know, because he's so nice. So it takes a lot of guts, a lot of courage. It takes a really long time for a lot of people such as myself, to actually say, you know, yeah, this happened and it's valid and. And I don't deserve it. I. I know I get messages every single day that, like, I want to cry from women and men, from. For p. From people that are being abused, called names. Like, in my case, it was almost daily verbal abuse. Almost daily. I was called a useless piece of. And many worse things, many worse things, idiot, etc. Etc.
- [10:50]
C
And you start to believe it.
- [10:53]
B
Exactly. But when I tell. Like, I use my mom as an ex, I used to tell my mother, like, oh, you know, just never mind. Because of the money, because of the financial security. But nowadays, I mean, I don't know what you think as an attorney, but I think, no excuse, I don't care. Any amount of money is worth staying in a miserable marriage. I think you just get the hell out as soon as possible.
- [11:12]
C
Yeah. You know, I remember my mother saying. And I had her on my podcast because there were so many things that I felt like, you know, when you're. I do think the way you're raised helps. I mean, it does shape you as a person, but also how you make decisions and you don't have to repeat mistakes, but you need to learn from what your experiences were and how you're going to apply or not apply them later in life. And I remember her saying, she said, I don't think anyone is ever going to love you this much. Yeah, right. And she said. And she said, are you sure you can make it without him?
- [11:54]
B
Wow. Yeah. My mom used to say the exact same stuff. Yes.
- [11:59]
C
I was thinking, like, you know, how did our powerhouse moms who show up in this really big independent way all of a sudden think that the way that we survive is with. I mean, I don't know. It's just interesting.
- [12:15]
B
Yeah.
- [12:15]
C
What were you most afraid of for leaving?
- [12:19]
B
I wasn't afraid. I felt guilty because he drank. He became an alcoholic. The more money he made, the more he drank. I felt it was my job to save him. So in my head at the time, I kept thinking, if I leave him, of course he's gonna kill himself. He's gonna drink more. Because he would say that, you know, I just want to drink until I die. I just want to drink until I die. You know, So I felt so guilty. Like I was saying in the beginning, if I put myself first, he's gonna die because of me, you know, so it was a really tough cycle. Really tough cycle. And you. You wrote something else that I. I mean, I.
- [12:59]
C
Some.
- [12:59]
B
Some phrases in your book are so powerful, and this is another one that connects with what we're saying. The people we marry are not the people we divorce. Of course, we all change and evolve and yet. So this is my question to you. The phrase when we get married is till death do us part, right? Should it be, should it be something. I know it sounds crazy, but maybe should it be something a little more flexible like until major changes do as far or until like abcd, like whatever you decide.
- [13:39]
C
Instead of getting married, can we do a five year lease and we get to choose to renew every five years?
- [13:44]
B
I interviewed the lady that wrote this book, the Marriage Lease. Yes, it's I interview. The book is called the Marriage Lease. Yes, that was my idea.
- [13:54]
C
Yeah, that's funny. So it's not, you know. Oh goodness.
- [13:59]
B
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- [15:04]
C
Okay, so the biggest challenge of course is learning to evolve together or recognizing that you're not going to be growing at the same pace and evolving in the same direction and all those things. And I think about, you know, in my marriage to my children's dad, in a matter of, I don't know, a few years we had moved cross country twice. He had lost his parents. I was told I couldn't have children. I mean, it was, we changed jobs. If, if all of those things had happened. Like there's so many things and how you respond to all of those events is going to change who you are as a person. And are you still going to like that other person? Is that going to work? Are you still going to respect and love and like the other person? And then I think about bigger things. I had a client once who was injured in an accident and it was a head trauma and his wife hung in there for as Long as she felt like she could. And without any judgment, they parted amicably and she restarted her life. And it was an amicable split, but it was something that no one would have anticipated or controlled or known. And then you have other situations that are salacious. Right. Somebody becomes an alcoholic or it was always alcoholic. You didn't know somebody has a drug addiction or, you know, porn addiction, which I hear a lot about, which I'm not convinced exists. I know, but is it an addiction or is it just. I mean, is it.
- [16:50]
B
I feel like people get addicted, believe.
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C
Me, of something else though, because I feel like.
- [16:56]
B
But it is an. It's treated as an addiction, you know. I know.
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C
And sex addiction, right. So there are all of these things that happen and are you willing to stay the course? Are you willing to, you know, is that person willing to get treatment? Is that person willing to evolve and work through? You know, I always say, if your partner says, hey, I think we really need to go to counseling, we need to go to therapy, Always say yes. You say yes.
- [17:23]
B
Okay, so what if the person like my. There are a lot of men. I know men, women as well, but a lot of men say, absolutely not. I don't believe in counseling.
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C
I love.
- [17:35]
B
My husband would not, not even consider. He taught every psychologist, every psychiatrist, every therapist in the world was a, an idiot. He didn't believe in it. He was like, no, there's not a chance in the world that anybody would convince him to seek help.
- [17:51]
C
Right.
- [17:51]
B
So you think that would be the end of the line?
- [17:55]
C
I think that most of the time there's a Hail Mary after. But my experience sitting in a conference room with a client when. And I'm just, I'm going to make a blanket statement. And it is still a stereotypical. But by the time you reach that point, for, for, for some people, it's a point of no return. Like they've already worked through the emotions, they've already recognized there's not going to be change. And by the time they sit down in my conference room, the decision has been made. Now, I'm a marriage loving divorce attorney and I have put together couples over the years. In fact, we're having a marriage loving divorce attorney matchmaking mixer tomorrow night. Very excited about this. I've never done.
- [18:42]
B
I wish I was there. I would come. I wish.
- [18:46]
C
I'm a little heavy on my women attendees. I need to, I need to work on my guys. But, but if got this visual of like all these people walking in and like one side of the room being all Women and then there being like four guys. Anyway, I lost what I was saying, that it was like.
- [19:06]
B
No, you're saying your marriage loving divorce attorney. Yeah, I understand.
- [19:11]
C
And even if you want the people, if you want to send them back to the drawing board, go. And I'll say back to therapy. I hand out all kinds of names for therapists and anger management clinics and marriage retreats. Oh, gosh. I mean, I have my resources, have resources. But if one person has already felt, already felt like they extended themselves, they've done everything they could and the other person's catching up, man, it's hard to get both people back on the same track.
- [19:43]
B
Yeah, look, I think we all get married hoping and thinking it is going to be forever. Right. But on the same spoken. I think that like you said, everybody reaches a oh my God point of no return. I cannot do this anymore. And again, I think it's better that the sooner you realize that, that that's the point and you get out, the sooner you start rebuilding your life. Right, right.
- [20:12]
C
And. And for some people that is much harder and scared, scarier than others. But it does not mean that it's impossible.
- [20:21]
B
Oh, I, look, I'm living proof of it. I rebuild my life from zero. You know, a lot of women do.
- [20:27]
C
I mean, and you know, whether it's, I mean, I've been to apartment buildings and help clients find their furniture and I've negotiated cars because they never had to do that. We've opened bank accounts. I've taught, you know, stereotype, stereotypical a dad who says, who's been working full time and says, I want primary custody. And you're like, you've been traveling for the last 17 years. Like now you want primary custody. And it's like a wake up call to understanding whether you're a mom, a dad, a husband, a wife. Like whatever it is, figuring out what it is you really want, not doing it based on principle or because what other people are going to think. And when you get down to it, like that's really, can be a hard thing to figure out. You're so used to being in a couple, you're so used to this, you know, this relationship being part of your, you know, you're defined by, can be really challenging and scary to start over. But it's so very possible. You're a living proof.
- [21:31]
B
Yeah. So look what I will say. Yes, in my case, and I am an intelligent woman. I have two college degrees, I speak five languages, I've traveled the world, I'm not dumb. But my marriage Was so controlling, so controlling. For 15 years, I barely did anything, you know, taxes, bank, like you said, money, la la la la. So I literally had to learn how to do everything, like, how do I run a business, how do I do my taxes, how do I make money? I had to learn everything again and remind myself that I'm intelligent. Because of course, when you get called a useless piece of for 15 years, your brain starts believing that you are useless piece of. But I will say that as you rebuild and you, you build a new life for yourself and you learn how to do things on your own, that is insanely empowering. That makes you feel so much better as a human being, as a woman. And I think it opens doors for healthier and better relationships.
- [22:35]
C
Absolutely. And the reality is, like, I don't want that to start for people after they've separated. So in one of the programs that I have, I have the people like my audience basically because I work with business owners who never think they'll ever get separated or divorced. And so, you know, they're convinced that their partners would never leave them. And so I make them go through an exercise where I want them to write down all of the things that they're responsible for in their relationship, and then I want them to write down all of the things that the other person is responsible for in the relationship. And maybe it's something as, you know, booking travel or packing bags or, you know, doing the grocery store run, dealing with, you know, the exterminator, whatever, it is simple to complex, whatever it is, banking. And it's harder than you think, especially when you have one parent who stays, one party who stays at home because the other one's like, I don't know what they do because they don't put a value on those things. They only put a value on the wage earner, which is a ridiculous thing to think. But then also now having them look at their list, both the other party and theirs, and recognizing that if they split, they'll be responsible for both sides of the page. And so why are we waiting to take ownership and accountability and responsibility for those things in our lives that we could be responsible for, you know, it's very eye opening for most. And what I'll try to get them to do is switch. If you really want to understand and have gratitude and reconnect, you know, switch up those experiences and roles for 30 days. I want you to be responsible for the dishes and the, you know, the linens, grocery shopping. And I know I can't do your job, but I can do these other things that you're responsible for. I can figure out how to fit 50 things in a single day and still survive and be in bed by 10.
- [24:42]
B
So that's a good exercise.
- [24:45]
C
Yes, it is a good exercise. And they. And the people that have been a part of that have appreciated it. And I just think, you know, I was. The. The embarrassment and the humility that comes from that first meeting with someone who is considering separation and divorce, who has never written a check. Back in the day of when we wrote checks, you know, doesn't know. I think part of it, too, was like, some people who weren't working don't have credit scores. They can't credit. There's no. Nowhere.
- [25:26]
B
So just very scary. It's very. And I. And I know for a fact that there are so many women that stay in miserable marriages because they're so freaking scared. They are so afraid of starting over. They're like, again, like my mom used to say, don't rock the boat. And I always say, you're selling yourself short. I think if you stay in a miserable marriage, for whatever the hell reason it is, you're just selling yourself short because I think we're a lot stronger and a lot more resilient than we give ourselves credit for.
- [25:56]
C
You know, I try not to read all the comments on, like, TikTok when I post or, you know, Instagram, I try not to read all the comments. But the comments on some of my posts about women who don't work are so hated by men who work. It's. It's so interesting to hear. There's such a strange line. Regardless of what the responsibility is between the two parties, the reality is that if you understand what all the responsibilities are at home and at work and taking care of yourself, you are likely to be a much happier, empowered, good human right, because you'll learn yourself. It's a healthier version of you. Nine times out of ten. And I just love, love, love to see that in clients as they make that transformation or after they read my book, and they're like, I can do this. And frankly, when I was married and separated, hence the book, there were a lot of things that I did not do in my relationship that I'm curious what would have happened if I had. But looking forward, I'm very happy. But the reality is, like, it was very traditional. I did not handle any of our home finances. I run a law firm. I'm a lawyer. I take care of other people and their families. So that was his responsibility. And so Even when I separated, I remember, and I tell this story in the bank that I remembered that we had a bank account somewhere, but I wasn't sure where. So I decided I was going to just walk into the biggest bank and say, you know, excuse me, in my best Southern accent. I think that we have a bank account here, but my husband is traveling. I was wondering if you could help me. And I gave them both of our Social Security numbers and up popped our bank accounts with my name not on them. I'm not saying that he was trying to hide something. I'm saying that it's a lot easier to figure out what's going on. You just have to get your head out of the damn sand.
- [28:12]
B
Yes.
- [28:13]
C
Do it. And then see how you feel before you decide whether. Whether you're afraid.
- [28:18]
B
Oh, my God, you are so right. And I think financial. Taking financial control of what's going on. Knowing what's going on. Obviously, I made a mistake, too. I would let my husband handle everything. And we had, like, super expensive attorneys. And I thought, I'm in great hands. Turn out, when he died, I lost everything. Long story, a different episode. But yeah, I was, like, totally penniless, alone. I, I, literally everything was taken from me. But you wrote. So moving on, because that's a, that's a tough one. But I want to ask you. Okay, you wrote that in the United States alone, and we all know that divorce rate is really, really high. You said there are about 750,000 marriages that end in divorce or annulment per year. I know that's crazy high, yet I know you're like me. I. I'm a sucker for love. I love a love story. I love love. I say, no matter what happens to you, because nowadays so many women say, well, I'm done. I give up. I've been through this. I don't wanna. I'm like, no, no, no, don't give up on love. There is always somebody out there looking for you. You know, I don't care. But. So here's the question. You're a divorce attorney. I know you love love. I know you remarried.
- [29:38]
C
Giant Egyptian man.
- [29:40]
B
Amazing. So anybody out there listening, they're like, I don't want to go through this again. Divorce. We know divorce is so painful. It's so horrible. What would you say to those skeptical ones that, you know, might give up on love and just say, I never want to do this again?
- [29:58]
C
My least. One of my least favorite pieces of advice that I received was somebody who said, why go through it all? You're doing is replacing one person's. Your what is what you say you're, you're replacing one man's problems for another man's problems. And it stopped. Like I thought, oh my gosh, am I, is that the plan? Am I just. But my, I, I'm encouraged. Obviously that's not the truth, and that was her perception and she has the right to feel that way. But if you look at it through a different lens, the person that is showing up in that relationship, you are a different person than you were. And you are so much more aware of what you want in that relationship that if you're paying attention, you will not settle for anything less. And so identifying what your. I think I saw on one of your shows, you talked about non negotiables. Like, I made my list of non negotiables. I gave it to my ex husband when we were talking and then I made a note for them, for me, like, what was most important, what was going to keep me engaged, keep me in love, you know, and yes, you're going to have ups and downs, but like, how you show up, how you address conflict, how you communicate, what the level of intimacy is, you know, what didn't work. So now you get this beautiful chance to get it right. And you also think of the things that we didn't do on the first round that you're going to get the opportunity to do this time. And it is a beautiful thing. I'm, you know, and I, I would say like I was a commitment phobe, right? Don't tell me anything. Past five years, I can't think past five years. I've been a divorce lawyer for so long. Like, I was okay with that. It was very comfortable for me. But it is, you know, making sure that you are staying in touch with how you feel, how they feel, how they show up, understanding love, languages, reading. You know, it's funny, like, I think of it and I said, I've said this before, but I can't remember where. But we talked about sports. You know, you go out on the field and you've practiced all day for that event. All of a sudden we stop practicing, we get into a marriage and we stop. We only were playing the game, but we're not spending any time thinking about what we need to do to show up as our best self to be in the game. And not to suggest there is an analogy between a game and a marriage, but we work so hard at other things in our life. Academics, work, career, sports. We prep, we study, we, we do all These things. But we don't do. We don't do the same thing for marriage. We just assume it's a given. You say, I do, and then it's supposed to be happily ever after without any work.
- [33:08]
B
Hell no.
- [33:09]
C
That's not the way. Not what happens. So if you think that you're gonna find the right person and it's going to be like that forever, you shouldn't get married because that is not the way it should be. That would be so impossible.
- [33:23]
B
Yeah, look, and I think that we.
- [33:26]
C
Were when we got married.
- [33:27]
B
Exactly. And I also think because one relationship didn't work, it doesn't define what the next relationship is going to be. I don't think you should give anybody that much power over you. You know, like these women that say, I'm never gonna do it again, I give up on love. They're basically giving all the power to whoever did something to them. You know, I want to keep my. Regardless of everything I've been through. And believe me, I dated a lot of horrible men after my husband, of course. Right. Because I did. My brain was so wired to being abused. I dated narcissists, I dated liars, I dated cheaters, I dated, you name it. Until I figure out like, oh, wait a minute, stop, stop, stop. And then I made the non negotiables and I learned what I want in a partner. And nowadays I think I'm very chill and very mature about it. But again, my heart is open to finding love again. Because I don't think anything that happens to us in the past defines what will happen to us in the future.
- [34:29]
C
It shouldn't. And you shouldn't put that same baggage on your partner. It's not their fault that you went through what you went through, but it is going to shape who you are and how you're going to respond. And they do. I think they need to know that about you. They need to know not just about your prior relationships when the time is right, but, you know, also your childhood experiences and why you may make certain decisions. You know, like I think about. For me, I have, I. I carry abandonment issues with me. It's the weirdest thing. I know why I won't go into that because that is another episode. But I know that about myself. And so part of my. Part of what I need in a relationship is if we're going to argue. Got it. It has to be a healthy argument. But I also need to know that if you're going to leave, I need to know when you're going to come back because this deep seated feeling, this feeling of abandonment, this fear exists because of some things that happened in my childhood. So I want to make sure I'm sharing that with you. And if you don't respect that about me, we're probably not going to work. So of course you don't say that on the first date, the second, or maybe even the fifth. But when you get to the place where you can talk about real things like that's really important to share whether it was, oh, I agree. Prior relationship or trauma from something else. So I do think it's really important. I think it's part of my secret.
- [35:58]
B
I agree. I think, look, I always say that communication is key. Talk, talk, talk, talk. Put everything on the table. I'm a huge advocate for like no white lies, no bs. I think the more open, like you were saying, this is what happens to me. No, no, no, no. I think the more open and clear you are. Obviously I'm not a, you know, an expert, but I think the better are the chances that you're going to have a happy, successful relationship.
- [36:26]
C
Yes. And you need to know that about the other person too.
- [36:30]
B
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- [37:53]
A
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- [38:13]
B
For those out there who do want to get married the first time, second time, whatever. I don't necessarily want to get married on paper again. I don't need that. Like, if I had a partner that really wanted it, I would entertain it. But I. I just want the commitment, you know, But I know a lot of people need. Want to see, sign the paper, the marriage contract. Do you think everybody should have a prenup to, like, make things easier? If it doesn't work or it's on a case by case, what would you say as an attorney?
- [38:47]
C
Okay, so I, of course an attorney is going to say, yes, you should always have a prenup. But I don't. I mean, I'm assuming that's what most attorneys will say. I liken it to. Do you have car insurance, health insurance, dental insurance? I mean, we don't want to use any of those things, but we pay for them. We make sure. Even though we hope to never use our car insurance, we hope to never, like, God forbid, life insurance or, you know, disability. We do that because it's the thing we can't control in our life. Right. And, you know, I say it takes two to say I do and one to say I don't. The one that says I don't, you don't have any control over that person's decision. And so ideally, you would have some sort of agreement that sets expectations for in the event something happens. Because right now we are in love, we get along, we know what we're getting into. We know this partnership we're building. And so I don't know what's going to happen five years from now. What if you're an abuser and you've been hiding it? What if. What if you're not, and I end up falling in love with somebody that I hadn't expected? What if I'm actually gay and I've been, you know, suppressing these feelings? I mean, I have a lot of clients. After marriage equality, after all of that, like, it was. It was more, far more common for, you know, families to separate because one person realized that they were suppressing other feelings. So these are all the things we can't control. It's kind of like. And this, I don't know if this is appropriate, but I always say, like, if you aren't comfortable going in and buying a condom at the pharmacy or at the store, you are not old enough to be having sex. So that is how I think about prenups. And let's say you're like, I am not going to sign a prenup, or the other person isn't, or you're the parents of adult children who are getting married, and they're like, I can't put that in my kid's head first. If you have a daughter, I want you to think about what it would be like if your daughter was the one paying alimony. That usually stops dads from having this argument with me about prenups. They'll go, oh, never thought about that. Yeah, that is a thing. Women do pay alimony, too. So what I want you to be doing and telling your friends and telling your friends who have adult children who are thinking about getting married is that you don't have to sign the prenup. But if they can't have the conversation about the what ifs, the hypotheticals, about their joint finances, about what they want out of life, then start over. Like, just take a pause and identify if their goals are aligned. Does one of them want to stay home? Does one of them want to work until they're 70? Maybe they don't know the answers to the questions. But being comfortable enough to have that conversation and not fearing how the conversation is going to go, because I think that's usually what people. That's usually what stops people rocks.
- [42:14]
B
It's funny because a lot of women, A lot of women get offended. They're like, what, you want me to sign up? I honestly. Look, I am very romantic. Very romantic. However, marriage is a contract, right? It's a binding contract. I personally believe if you do a prenup, like you said, make everything super organized. If things change, like you said, we don't know. We hope you're going to be with the person for it. But if things change, exchange a few years down the road, it just makes everything a million times so much easier. I have girlfriends that have been trying to get divorced for years. Years, because they don't have a prenup. They're paying a fortune, like, forensic account and this and that. And like, I'm not kidding you, Like, I don't want to go through that. I. I want what's mine, what's fair, what I agree with the person, whatever works for, for two people. But I just think, and I'm not an attorney, by the way, this is no legal advice, nothing. It's just my opinion. I just think it makes things cleaner if you have to separate or get divorced.
- [43:21]
C
Well, and it's at a time where there's already stress, tension and conflict. So, I mean, there's Already one person unhappy enough to want to break this vow. And so is that really the time you want to negotiate about your future? No, of course not. You know, focus on your future at that point. And that's what a prenup is going to. Should be able to do for you. Now, most of the time, a prenup is going to say, here are the assets and the debts that we have. Now, at the time we're signing the prenup, should we have this or more at the time we separate, this is how those things will be valued, and this is how these things will be distributed between us. It might not eliminate the forensic or the evaluator or whoever's doing a business assessment or that part of the analysis, but what it does is it gives you a checklist. It gives you a better understanding of the process. It doesn't remove the need to negotiate or agree because there's oftentimes you still have to come up with values for the purpose of distributing. So, like, let's say that during our marriage, we created a business, and our prenup says, in the event we create a marriage or anything we create during our marriage that is titled in both of our names, the assumption or presumption or whatever language is in there is that it is our marital asset and thus should be divided equally. And in order to determine the value of that asset, we are going to do A, B, C and D. Now, question, is it going to be somebody that I pick or somebody that you pick that's going to do that valuation? Because I'm probably not going to trust the person you pick. So how like. So having those directives inside of the agreement makes a big difference because most of the time, people don't think through those gaps and there ends up being two valuators charging a fortune. And then you have to figure out who's right or compromise in the middle. And so it's not perfect. Prenups are not this perfect document. They're never going, in my opinion, going to catch everything. But they can really streamline and hopefully reduce the conflict, give you directions for what happens and all those fears. You know, when you decide, when one of you decides you no longer want to be married, you. You understand what it looks like. You don't feel as much financial leverage. You have a much better understanding of what it looks like once you get to that point.
- [46:01]
B
Yeah, I love that you love love. Although it's nice because, I mean, you know, your business is getting people divorced, but your business did not make you jaded. So I think it's a wonderful message that you send everyone because despite the fact that you were divorced and you divorce people, you were open to love and you found love again. So I think that's amazing. And I really always hope that nobody gives up on finding love. And of course, we always hope that even if it's the second marriage or the third marriage, that that person is going to be our forever person.
- [46:36]
C
Yes. I mean, thank you for saying that. Me too. I mean, I. I love putting people back together and, and trying to figure out how to make it work for them. So it means a lot and I appreciate that. People deserve to be.
- [46:53]
B
Yes. Congratulations on the book. Please don't say you're sorry. We definitely have to stop saying you're sorry too much. I'm like the first one in line. I'm just learning that guys don't give up on love. I'm putting your link here if anybody wants to find you. And we. Where do we find the book? On Amazon. Everywhere.
- [47:12]
C
Amazon. And I actually did my narration on audible. And if I stop being a lawyer and don't ever write a book again, you might hear me more on audible. I had the most fun doing the narration. You can find it on audible.
- [47:26]
B
That's really awesome because a lot of people send me those messages, like, is that book on audible? Is that real? So here you go, guys. If you don't want to read, get the book and. And while you go to work commuting, whatever, because it's a really cool book. Really fun read. Congratulations, Nicole. You're adorable. It's such an honor having you on the show. I really appreciate you.
- [47:44]
C
Thank you. It's so nice hanging out with you. I really appreciate it too.
- [47:48]
B
Thank you guys. Be safe out there. And please never give up on finding love. I'll see you soon.
- [47:54]
D
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- [47:55]
A
Smart bed.
- [47:56]
B
Can I make my sight softer?
- [47:58]
C
Can I make my sight firmer?
- [47:59]
B
Can we sleep cooler?
- [48:01]
D
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- [48:23]
C
Com.