MARINA LACERDA AKA JANE DOE MINOR 1 ABUSE SURVIVOR OF JEFF EPSTEIN

Summary

Podcast Summary: Kat on the Loose – "Marina Lacerda aka Jane Doe Minor 1: Abuse Survivor of Jeff Epstein"

Host: Kat Zammuto
Guest: Marina Lacerda
Episode Date: May 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This powerful episode continues the harrowing but inspirational conversation between host Kat Zammuto and Marina Lacerda (aka Jane Doe Minor 1), a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse. Recorded in-person at Kat’s Beverly Hills studio, the discussion delves into survivor resilience, systemic corruption, the realities facing victims, and the urgent need for advocacy and justice. This installment picks up where their previous episode left off, tackling listener questions, debunking persistent conspiracy theories, and exploring both personal healing and cultural change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Belief that Epstein is Still Alive

• Marina’s Perspective: Marina maintains her firm belief that Jeffrey Epstein did not commit suicide, nor was he killed, but is actually alive—backed by what she saw of his power and connections.

  • “I think this man is very much alive, and I think he's somewhere out there… I think he's making fun of us.” (Marina, 02:47)
  • She recounts hearing of Epstein’s supposed death on August 10 from her lawyer, initially feeling relief at not having to testify, but now seeing it differently.

• Rationale:

  • Epstein was, in her words, too powerful, knew too many secrets, and “was very well protected.” (04:00-04:25)
  • He often bragged about his influence: “I do own the bank. I do own the government. I know about, you know, powerful people, presidents, you know, prince around the world that would destroy…” (04:53)

2. Speculation Around Ghislaine Maxwell’s Fate

• Potential Pardon: The conversation pivots to Ghislaine Maxwell, with Marina suggesting there’s a chance powerful figures could push for her pardon, and that distractions are used to shield such developments (06:09).

  • “This is a predator. This is a pedophile. She does not deserve to be pardoned.” (07:10 - Marina)

• Victim-Blaming Culture: Both women bemoan how survivors are demonized, while perpetrators still receive privileges. Marina emphasizes, “We already have been dehumanized so many ways. It's...another slap in our faces.” (06:52)

• First-hand Account of Abuse:

  • Marina details a traumatic encounter at age 14 that involved Ghislaine orchestrating and participating in abuse. She underscores how, as a child, she couldn’t process what was happening:
    • “I was 14.” (09:33)
    • “It is crazy to think that a 13 or 14 or 15 year old will know the difference between a teenager and adult...it was very confusing.” (10:06)

3. Grooming, Power Dynamics, and the Systemic Failure

• How Abuse Works:

  • Marina explains the insidiousness of grooming and how Epstein leveraged psychological tactics to ensure girls stayed silent, comparing it to normalized abuse in other relationships:
    • “When you're groomed, it's just like when you're married, you know, your husband grooms you and you don't think anything of it.” (11:15)
  • Discussion covers the immense intimidation—both economic and social—that Epstein and associates wielded.

• Targeting Vulnerable Girls:

  • Epstein was disinterested in girls over a certain age, wanting younger victims and actively discouraging anyone over 16 or 17.
    • “He didn't want a 17, 18 year old...He kept [the younger girls] for himself.” (14:18)

• Failures of Investigation:

  • Both Kat and Marina express skepticism about claims of ongoing investigation into Epstein's properties and stress how time enables evidence destruction (16:42).
    • “If you're hiding 3 million other files, you're definitely not investigating.” (16:42 - Marina)

4. The So-Called "Suicide Note" and Government Response

• Skepticism:

  • The recent emergence of an alleged Epstein suicide note seven years later is met with derision.
    • “Where did this note appear from seven years later?...the paper looked so fresh.” (17:52 - Marina)
  • Both call it a government fabrication designed to quell public skepticism.
    • “It's so obvious that the government has to make up something...” (18:28)

• On Exonerations and Disappearances:

  • Marina points out the suspicious ways allegations are deflected (especially concerning political figures), and how key witnesses or survivors have even gone missing. (20:50)

5. The Amanda Ongaro & Paolo Zampali Story

• Complex Connections:
  • Explores the entanglements among models, politicians, and associates, notably the story of Amanda Ongaro (Brazilian model, deported, formerly close to Melania Trump). There are allusions to ties with Epstein, Trump, and broader influence operations—also noting social media silence and state-level punitive actions against whistleblowers. (22:06–24:47)

6. Courage to Speak Up, Risks, and Advocacy

• Personal Cost of Advocacy:

  • Marina admits initial fear but views her advocacy as a purposeful calling, stronger than her personal anxieties—“Our stories are written for us...so however I'm going to pass, it's already written. Is it going to be through advocating?” (26:12)
  • She fears more for her daughter's safety than her own. (27:08)

• The Reality for Immigrants & Survivors:

  • Both women reflect on the harsh realities of being immigrants in the U.S., exposing the myth that America’s justice system is above corruption—contrasted with Brazilian challenges:
    • “Are we in South America? ... The government is not what we think. The justice system is not what we think. It cannot be trusted.” (28:27–29:02)

7. What Would Justice Mean?

• Justice Redefined:

  • With Epstein “gone” and Maxwell in a de facto “country club” prison, the women discuss what justice truly means.
    • “Every survivor looks at justice in a different way…a lot want to build and do advocacy and pass different laws.” (31:22 - Marina)

• Legal Efforts:

  • Survivors have sued Epstein’s estate, though financial maneuvers complicated compensation. New legislation (e.g., Gender Motivated Act in Albany) is helping some survivors pursue further civil justice. (34:07)

8. Challenging Victim-Blaming and Misconceptions

• Where Were the Parents?

  • Marina addresses, head-on, the repeated question of why victims’ parents didn’t protect them—recounting her own sexual abuse by a stepfather from age 8, and blaming, not support, from her mother when she reported it.
    • “I started getting sexually abused by my stepfather as soon as I got to America at 8 years old. And my mom did absolutely nothing.” (39:30)
  • She emphasizes: “Predators always prey on kids with broken homes...we had no choice. It was, you know, how are we gonna eat?” (42:33)

• Cycle of Abuse and Predation:

  • Epstein’s machine functioned by recruiting girls from desperate, abusive environments, using older victims to find younger ones, and exploiting their need for survival.

9. Healing, Power, and Moving Forward

• On Recovery:

  • Both Kat and Marina are outspoken about the long, non-linear journey of healing:
    • “Why would you want to see any of the survivors sad? … There is life after abuse, and it's okay to be happy.” (45:27 - Marina)
    • “If you don't speak up, the perpetrator will continue...Maybe it happened to you, but you're saving the next person.” (49:00)

• Taking Back Power:

  • “When you build another life…you take their power away. You're basically saying, you know what? It doesn’t matter what you did to me. You didn’t destroy me.” (51:15 – Kat)

10. Final Words & Advocacy for Victims

• Breaking the Silence:
  • They stress the importance of not shaming survivors for rebuilding or showing happiness: “It's okay to have fun. It's okay to be sexy, it's okay to be classy. It's okay to feel good.” (51:06 - Marina)
• Support for Victims:
  • Both call for societies, especially immigrant and Latino communities, to actively support survivors and stop perpetuating blame and shame.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Epstein’s Fate:
  • “I think this man is very much alive…I think he's making fun of us.” – Marina (02:47)
• On Government and Media Distraction:
  • “They’re just waiting, dropping the UFO files and having all these distractions.” – Marina (06:21)
• On Victims vs. Perpetrators:
  • “We already have been dehumanized so many ways…just another slap in our faces.” – Marina (06:52)
• On Meeting Ghislaine:
  • “She forced you girls to have a sexual encounter with her.” – Kat (08:39)
• On Abuser Psychology:
  • “He was too powerful. He knew too many things…and with his pride and ego, he wouldn’t go down in history like that.” – Marina (04:00)
• On Corruption:
  • “Are we in South America? ...There’s so much corruption here…The government is not what we think.” – Marina (28:27)
• On Justice:
  • “Bringing justice when Jeffrey Epstein is not here. For me, that is huge justice.” – Marina (31:39)
• Empowerment Message:
  • “It's okay to be happy. Nobody wants to live in the past…Make it into something positive.” – Marina (45:27, 46:13)
  • “Don’t ever forget to speak up. You don’t have to tell the whole world…but do tell somebody…” – Marina (49:14)
• On Healing:
  • “This process that we went through was horrific. But we are managing to shape this into such a positive way and helping other women and men who have been through abuse as well…this is part of your healing journey.” – Marina (51:06)
• On Power Dynamics:
  • “When you build another life for you and you're happy…you take their power away.” – Kat (51:36)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening & Episode Context – 00:54
• Epstein Suicide Theories & Marina’s Belief – 01:47–04:25
• Ghislaine Maxwell Discussion – 05:38–09:03
• First Meeting & Abuse Details – 09:03–11:15
• On Grooming and Power – 11:15–12:11
• Epstein’s Preferences / Victim Targeting – 14:18–15:05
• Investigations and Files – 16:18–17:00
• The Suicide Note Controversy – 17:12–19:45
• Amanda Ongaro & Brazilian Model Connection – 21:52–24:47
• Fear, Advocacy & Speaking Up – 26:12–27:08
• On Immigration & Broken Systems – 28:27–29:54
• Justice: Legal & Cultural – 31:22–34:39
• Victim-Blaming & Parental Criticism – 39:30–44:24
• Healing and Smiling After Trauma – 45:27–51:06
• Final Words, Support, and Solidarity – 54:00–56:23

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Tone and Style

Throughout, the episode is strikingly candid, conversational, and at times raw—but always anchored in mutual support, accountability, and an absolute refusal to sugarcoat uncomfortable truths. Both Kat and Marina combine personal anecdotes, survivor wisdom, and pointed political commentary for an uncompromising, empowering listening experience.

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Resources for Survivors

At the episode's end, Kat mentions a list of resources, hotlines, and links for anyone experiencing abuse or needing help, emphasizing: "You can always, always, ALWAYS get help." (56:43)

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For further engagement:
Marina’s story and advocacy can be followed on her Instagram (link provided in episode notes).

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End Note:
This discussion is vital listening for anyone concerned with abuse, justice, survivor empowerment, and confronting systemic corruption. It’s a call to move from silence and stigma toward outspokenness, solidarity, and action.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I just got up there and I was just like, oh, my God. Thank you.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

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[A]

Find out what happens in season six of Tell Me what Happened.

[B]

Marina. Welcome to Cat on the Loose again. But this time we're doing it together live at our studios in Beverly Hills.

[A]

Yeah. So awesome to be here. Thank you for having me again on the show and it was an honor, you know, what a pleasure it is to be here and inside your studio.

[B]

Yeah. Right. So. But for people that don't know what's going on, if you guys didn't listen, Marina already did one episode. We did it via video call because you live in Florida, I live in California, and we're getting hundreds of thousands of views from the video, of course. So what we're gonna do today is continue that conversation. We're gonna dive deep and I'm gonna try to have her answer some of the questions you guys send. So if you didn't listen to the first episode, Marina, I recommend you go there and listen so you can catch up because she talks about her background story, everything, how did she meet Jeffrey, everything that happened to her to that point. So I'm not going to repeat. We're gonna move on. Is that good with you, Marina?

[A]

I completely agree.

[B]

Okay, awesome. So. So when we finished the first episode, I remember I asked you this crazy, controversial question, right? That if you thought he was he really killed himself or if you thought he was murdered. And then you gave us to me was shocking in a way that I didn't know what to expect. But obviously a lot of people out there agree with you, with what you said. Do you want to give your opinion here again? So we get started.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think everyone, you know, I think a long time ago we used to think, oh, these are Conspiracy theories, you know, and, and everyone used to dive in the Internet and try to figure out what was going on. And now all those conspiracy theories that we thought were conspiracy theories are now coming out, and they are real. You know, I mean, it's awesome that you bring that up because, you know, we, we think about it all the time. And now they just had this note that they just found.

[B]

Wait, we're gonna talk about it. But the first question, when I asked you if you thought he was, he killed himself or he was murdered, your answer was, absolutely not.

[A]

I think this man is very much alive, and I think he's somewhere out there. You know, unfortunately, to say this, but honestly speaking, I think he laughs at all of us while we are, you know, doing all this act, all this movement and trying to, you know, change the culture. I think he's, he's making fun of us.

[B]

Yeah. So again, when I posted this video on, on social media, a lot of people said, yes, yes, yes, we agree. But you knew him. You were obviously one of his victims. So what makes you think that? Like, when they said, you know, he killed himself in, in, in jail, did you think that immediately, or was it something that you heard about? How did you come to this conclusion that you do think he's alive?

[A]

Well, when I first heard about it, my lawyer called me, you know, and it's so crazy because it's actually on my sister's birthday, so it's like a date that I could.

[B]

When was the day?

[A]

It's August 10th.

[B]

August 10th?

[A]

Yeah, he passed away August 10th. So when she called me, I was just like, oh, my God. My first thought was, like, thank God I don't have to testify because it's scary, you know. And, you know, today, obviously, I have a whole different view on that. Like, if I needed to go and testify, like, I think I'd be more willing today because I've now created courage. And, you know, it's a whole different mindset. Right? You know, you, you build up encouragement and other things as, as time goes on, but I, I, I don't think this man would have either killed himself or anybody could kill him. He was too powerful. He knew too many things, and he was very well protected. And knowing how he was, you know, with his pride and his ego, it just, he wouldn't go down in history like that. That's how I think.

[B]

Okay, so what, so you think. Because that's a huge, huge deal, right? Basically what we are saying is that the government helped him get out of jail. Prison, jail, whatever. He was right. And so you think everybody got all these forces together to get this man out of there, because what he said, if you guys don't get me out of here, I'm gonna talk and tell stories about you.

[A]

Yeah. I think, you know, when we first encounter. Well, when I first encountered Jeffrey in the beginning, it was like, okay, I knew he was powerful and very rich, but he did make it clear to us and to a lot of the survivors, I do own the bank. I do own the government. I know about, you know, powerful people, presidents, you know, prince around the world that would destroy, you know, so he would say that. He would say that. And, you know, I think from that point on, after, you know, 2019 happened, you know, we were like, okay, well, he can't be dead because he knew too much and he had all these connections. And I think he really turned around and said to certain people, like, hey, listen, you don't get me out of here. I'm just. I'm going to talk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm going to talk and I'm going to tell everybody what I know.

[B]

That makes sense. So why do you think that potentially. I know we pronounce her name different ways. Ghislaine, you say, and you met her. We're going to talk about that.

[A]

What does it matter if we say your name correctly?

[B]

Right. That the master. Yes. But anyway, do you think she could potentially do the same or just try to make a deal for her case? What are your thoughts on her?

[A]

Well, I see that she's really trying to get pardon out of, you know, what we call it, her country club. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and, and Trump, when it's, when it brings up to Trump, he. He almost makes believe, like, who are we talking about? Like, right. Oh, well, yeah, well, I don't know. I have to look into that. And I, I think they're working, you know, with Todd Blanche in it now. I think they're working around it, and I think they're just waiting, like dropping the UFO files and having all these distractions. I think it kind us to something else. And then he can maybe pardon her. So I don't know if she'll get pardoned, but I think it'll be. It'll be big if that happens.

[B]

I mean, what would be your. Your feeling if you. Let's just say for argument's sake, that would happen. I mean, that would be a total shock to you and other victims. Right?

[A]

I mean, it's. We already have been dehumanized so many ways. It's. I think this would be just another way to, you know, another slap in our faces. And, you know, come on. I mean, let's. Let's. Let's talk about this for a second. This is a predator. This is a pedophile. She does not deserve to be pardoned.

[B]

No, of course not.

[A]

For what reason does she need to be out? If anything, we want her back in actually where she belongs, in actual prison. Right now. She's in a country club living her best life.

[B]

It does drive me crazy. And we did talk a little bit about that on the episode then when we were having dinner that so many times the victims are villainized. The victims are like, oh, why did she go back? Why was she there? Where were the. They're judging the victims. And this woman sitting there. Yeah, you can. You. You barely can call that place like a prison, right. With all the privileges, but she's sitting there trying to paint this picture that she is the victim, that something wrong is being done to her. And that just if it drives me crazy and I'm not involved, I can only imagine what that does to you.

[A]

I mean, if you listen to a lot of the survivors that were trafficked to Ghislaine. I was trafficked to Ghislaine only one time. But if you listen to a lot of these survivors who were trafficked to her a whole bunch of times, they do say that she was worse than Jeffrey Epstein.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So what does that tell you? That a woman who is the same gender as we are, that, you know, the survivors trusted because she was a woman, and she groomed them so well because it was so much easier for her. Right.

[B]

Than.

[A]

Than to Jeffrey to do it and to allow. To even think that she could be pardoned and then to be moved into a country club, it's just really. It's dehumanizing. It's a slap. It's disgusting. It is. It's.

[B]

I just hope it. It doesn't happen. But you. You did mention. So let's tap into that before we talk about the suicide note, quote, unquote. I definitely want to talk about that. But you did meet her. And I was really shocked when you tell me that the story that you not only met her, but she forced you girls to have a sexual encounter with her.

[A]

Yep, we did. And it was so weird because, you know, usually we do stay in Jeffrey Epstein's massage room, but for that day, he wanted to go into his bedroom and there was another survivor with me. And, you know, we didn't think anything of it. And once we get into his bedroom. You know, we were laying in the bed and Ghislaine walked in and he's turned around and he said, a friend will be joining us today. And being so young, you know, I didn't realize.

[B]

Let's remind everybody how old you were.

[A]

I was 14.

[B]

I was 14 years old. That's like a freaking kid, right? It's.

[A]

Listen, I have to say, it's like my daughter, we were on the cruise and she seen the teacher and she told me this teacher was the same age as me. And I, when I saw the teacher, I was like, oh, my God, we are not the same age. I am 37, going on 38.

[B]

This teacher and your daughter now is the same age.

[A]

She's going to be 13, right? She does not.

[B]

We look at your daughter like she's a little kid.

[A]

She's a little kid.

[B]

We cannot imagine, like a little girl having to go through this, being put in the situations with these adults. It's so freaking crazy.

[A]

It is, it is. And it's crazy to think that a 13 or 14 or 15 year old will know the difference between a teenager and adult. Like, I always thought, like, you know, I thought Ghislaine was our age at that time, you know, and now when

[B]

I compute in your head, right?

[A]

And when I look at my daughter, her saying, this teacher that we saw on the cruise, that was my age, I was, you know, I turned around, I was with one of my friends and I was laughing. I was like, oh, my God, this just brought me back to how old I was. And I didn't know the difference between being a young teenage and a young, you know, woman and an older woman, you know, so for us, it was, it was very confusing, you know, And

[B]

I think another thing too, that we have to picture in our heads if we can, because it's so disgusting. This is a massive power. It's right, because they, these are adults, they're powerful. Like you said, you know, this is a millionaire. You are like in this crazy, fancy, multi million dollar house in New York, right? And you are girls. It's not like if you saw something or you didn't want to do something that you didn't want to do. I'm guessing you were probably super intimidated in terms of speaking up, right?

[A]

I mean, I, I don't think that any of us thought, you know, hey, let's speak up, because this person is doing something absolutely wrong with us. Because that's a lot of grooming, you know, and when you're groomed, it's Just like when you're married, you know, your husband grooms you and you don't think anything of it. And other people that are on the outside, they're like, oh my God, your husband is like treating you like he's being really disrespectful. And in your head you're like, no,

[B]

he's talking about, yeah, what are you talking about?

[A]

What are you talking about? Like, he's not disrespecting me. This is something normal because that's what you're used to. So, you know, that's how Jeffrey molded us, you know, and he would know how to treat certain girls and he would know how to act with different girls, you know, and what to offer them. So he was very, very smart in that way, you know, he knew exactly and how to treat us, each one of us, you know.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah. You know, it's. It's funny because, you know, I just, you know, I had a re. Encounter with a survivor that I. That was, you know, went to Jeffrey's house and when she came up to me, she's like, do you remember me? And I'm like, no, I don't. She's like, well, I remember I was 17 and you told me to say that I was 15 years old. And I was like, I did. She goes, yeah, she goes. Because he didn't want a 17, 18 year old. And I think a lot of the girls that were over age that went there just had a whole different dynamic with him. I think they were trafficked to other people. And I think a lot of the younger girls that you know, were with Jeffrey, he kept them for himself. It's something that I'm starting to see that I'm noticing in. In some of the files now.

[B]

Looking back as an adult at the whole situation obviously was horrible. So I'm not sure the word luck is the word I want to use, but maybe relieved that because obviously I think a lot of these girls had a much worse fate. Right. Like you said, they were trafficked to other countries to this creepy island that we know nothing about or some crazy ranch. Right. That same we know nothing about. You were one of the ranch.

[A]

They stopped investigations.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So weird. It's like we don't know anything that's happening now. I look in the news, I'm like, what. What happened with investigations?

[B]

To me, it's kind of funny because when they say they're investigating, honestly, I don't believe it because I never see. They say like the island. Yeah. But nobody's really do it. Like, they never showed us results. So to me, when I see like they're investigating the ranch, they're investigating this that they know. They say their bodies there. There is this and that and that. There were witnesses that came forward talking about the island and talking. There was this really famous architect. I forgot his name. You must have heard he specifically described in detail how creepy the house in this island was.

[A]

Whichever he had asked them to build.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And how he had asked them to do specific rooms in a very, you know, for young, you know, people. And he was. He did a whole interview on that

[B]

and he ended up believing the. He's like, I don't want to do this job because it's too creepy, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I mean they have. So I honestly don't know if I believe that there is any investigation ever going on.

[A]

Well, we just have to look at it and say if you're hiding 3 million other files, you're definitely not investigating. And you have to think about this when you're not. When you say you're going to investigate something and then you don't. It only gives time for people to hide evidence.

[B]

Right. So it's. The more time passes, the harder it gets. Right.

[A]

And it's easier for people to go there that are in, you know, behind this corruption to go there and clean that up and then say, okay, well now you can do the investigations. It just, you know, it doesn't work like that.

[B]

No, I agree with you. But oh my God, there's so many things I want to ask you. But before I forget, so literally just came out in the news. I also thought that was hilarious. Like everybody's questioning it. Everybody's question. All of a sudden this note appears. I mean, I didn't know the man. I, I'm just an outsider watching like everybody else. But I think like, this is such BS would this dude was not going to write this note. Now you, I. If you guys are listening to the audio episode, please go to Kat on the loose show on YouTube so you can see her face because your expression is worth a million because it's seven years later.

[A]

What do you mean? Like, where did this note appear from seven years later? And like, let's just put it in, in, in perspective here. When you have a note and you and you put something away for seven years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The paper looked so fresh.

[B]

Yeah, right. And the word. I just thought it was so bizarre. Like this crazy powerful man would say like, oh, I'm going down some crazy. I forgot what.

[A]

That's exactly worth it and not fun or was fun and not worth it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

Some crazy Mark Epstein, which is his

[B]

brother, is saying sad today that he doesn't believe. Right?

[A]

Yeah. I mean it's very obvious, you know, it's so obvious that the government. Yes, please do. It's so obvious that the government has to make up something because now people are like, everyone's like, this man is not dead. So now the government has to think of a way to prove to us that he is dead. And by doing that, we'll just scribble, scrabble. A nice little note saying that, you know, he's ready to kill himself.

[B]

Yeah. So yeah, here it is. I found it.

[A]

I Almost want to get some of his other stuff that wrote and start to say, hey, is this really it?

[B]

First of all, you should have a specialist in handwriting. Right. Double check. But they wrote, they investigated and found nothing. It is a treat to be able to choose one's time to say goodbye.

[A]

I feel like there were. See, see, that's also what got me too.

[B]

I can't even understand what come to me. I. I don't. No fun.

[A]

No.

[B]

Not worth it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not worth it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Would he, you know him, what is your opinion? Is there any chance in the world that he would write and why would they only find it now, seven years later? Do you think there's any chance that this is the kind of stuff he would write?

[A]

Absolutely not.

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

Absolutely not.

[B]

I think it'll baloney.

[A]

I think so.

[B]

Who is. Because now that we have this president in charge, okay. And he claims he has nothing to do with it.

[A]

He also says that we have, you know, we have excluded him from all. I forgot the word that he used. Right now I'm blanking out that we have exonerated him from being a part of any abuse with the survivors, which, you know, we have to say it was never asked. You know, I was never. I was never trafficked or abused by, you know, Donald Trump. But I think before he exonerates himself and say that we've exonerated him, I think it's only fair that he actually asks us before he does that, before he says that, you know, there are a lot of allegations on those files that are serious allegations. And, you know, one of those allegations, they found a model or I guess one of the girls, one of the survivors in New York, and now she has disappeared. She's missing.

[B]

Are you serious?

[A]

She's missing?

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I think she's a huge key to. I guess she was trafficked to a lot of different men, but now she's missing and we, you know, and, and there's so much to focus on, the Epstein files, that it's hard to focus on this girl because look how many things. Right, right. There's so many things out there that we are just slipping through the cracks and just letting it fall apart. And that's why it's. It's hard to keep up with it.

[B]

Yeah. But to me, like, if the. I see this note come out in the press when everybody's trying to talk about the case and doubting it, that this, you know, that he did commit suicide, I'm thinking, who did it come from? I mean, it came from the government. So if you didn't do anything wrong, let's say for argument's sake, okay, you're an innocent lamb. You never abused any girls. No girl sat on your lap on his plane, on some private plane like it's on a million pictures. Your wife was not introduced to you by him. Right. That's a whole other story. But. So why would you be putting this out there now? What would be the purpose?

[A]

Well, I think Paulo's on. Polly is talking a lot, too, which is Amanda Ongaro's ex.

[B]

Right. Can you explain to people that don't. She got deported. Can you explain the story quickly for people that don't know who they are

[A]

is a little crazy because, you know, we. We're hearing from different people. We're not hearing straight from Amanda. Right. So what we understand.

[B]

Give interviews.

[A]

She did, but I can't seem to find the full interview. It's like it's almost holding back. It's like they're holding back some pieces, you know. So from what I understand, and having a couple of people that I talked to in Italy, we have this reporter that has been digging into it and seeing that Amanda Ongaro, which is a Brazilian former model, met Paulo Zampali, who is also working with Jean.

[B]

Who was this Paulo Zo. Paulo for. He's been in the news a lot lately. Can you explain to people that never heard of him?

[A]

I. From what I'm understanding, he's also in the modeling industry and he does some sort of, you know, something to do with traveling or, you know, getting models to do things. And I think that's how he met Amanda Ongaro, if I'm not mistaken. And they had a kid together, and I think they went through a separation. They were not married because I thought they were. They were not married. And when they separated, she wanted to keep custody of her child, and he didn't want to. And he was giving her a very, very hard time.

[B]

And.

[A]

And what he did was he then called one of his really, really, you know, important friends and was like, hey, get my ex girlfriend deported, because I want to.

[B]

But what is her connection? What is his connection with the Epstein story?

[A]

Well, from what I understand is saying that he knew Melania, our first lady, which was introduced. He's saying that he introduced Melania to President Trump. But then we have other people saying that Jeffrey Epstein knew Melania and she introduced him to President Trump. And Paula Zampalo is saying, like, no, no, no, she's a sweet girl. I'm the one that Introduced them to each other, you know, so it's, it's very confusing.

[B]

So much dirt, Right? That's the problem. It's so much dirt.

[A]

And now they have silenced her too. Yeah, they have silenced her. They took out her, her, her Twitter account or X account, I guess, you know, whatever it's called. So it's very hard, you know. And I think any mother that is in a different country and got deported, was detained in ICE for three months. Wow. And has no voice, knew the First Lady. They were best friends from what I am understanding. They, you know, first lady used to send out Secret Service to pick her up and bring her to birthday parties and all of this. They were very good friends. And then she feels betrayed, like, you turned your back on me. And, you know, I was detained and ICE for three months. You know, I don't have my kid. And she was really, you know, going out on, on social media on the first lady.

[B]

It sounds, they wanted her to shut up because they don't want. Yeah, they don't want to tell the story.

[A]

They did, they silenced her. Exactly. On the First Lady's birthday, which I didn't know was her birthday, but they did it on the day. And I think she was going to come out with way more.

[B]

Uhhuh.

[A]

And they, they, they silenced her ex account and did all of this. But like, can you imagine you being separated, like, you know, from your child? I, People would be calling me like they would, they would be calling me like a maniac.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I would be a maniac.

[B]

Yeah, of course, like most moms. Right. So the kids stayed in the United

[A]

States, I think the kids in Italy

[B]

with Paolo in Italy. Oh, wow, that's crazy. Now in your case, when you decided to start speaking up, were you afraid? Because obviously speaking up, the more you do it, the more empowered you feel. Right. And you're like, I'm going to keep doing this because it's my story. I have the right to tell my story. I'm gonna stand my ground. Which I think it's fantastic and I admire you so much for that. And I keep repeating it. We have to speak up. You have to speak up. You have to share the interview. You have to share because obviously as women we have to be supportive of each other. But if you are a decent human, you wanna any victim to speak up until there is some sort of justice, right? And these freaking politicians all over the world, like, I don't think anybody went to, to even trial or prison or anything for what was done to you girls. But Were you afraid in the beginning?

[A]

It was something that I didn't think of it in the, like in the long run how it was going to be. You know, I, I didn't think of it like that far ahead, you know. And as I keep going, I think people tell me I'm not worried enough and I'm not paranoid enough. And my thought is like, listen, I think that we are here in this world and we have our stories written down for us, right? Whether you believe it in God or whether you believe it in any religion and whatever it is, like our stories are written for us, right? So however I'm going to pass, it's already written. Is it going to be through advocating? Is it going to be because I'm telling my story? Is it going to be because I crossed the street and got hit by a car? It's going to happen. It's not going to change. So I really don't, you know, I'm not here like, oh my God, I need, you know, it does make me paranoid or I guess worried when they release the files and they're unredacted. And it's not paranoid for me, it's more paranoid for my daughter.

[B]

Yeah, but that's pretty crazy too, right? That they release, but they don't really release because there's so much information that's not out there. I mean, again, I don't even understand because. And you're an immigrant like me, we both come from Brazil. And that's one of the things that touched me so much about your story, of course, because we know, you know, the pains and the troubles and how hard it is to be an immigrant because we both come from troubled families, right? A lot of people write on my social media like that I live the sheltered life and all this. And I laugh because I'm like, before you judge someone or you make that decision, you should listen to their story. So we've both been through a lot and it's not easy being an immigrant in a different country. But I as an immigrant, for the longest time, time before my happened to me, I was super naive. I was like, I live in the United States, I'm an American citizen, the laws protect me. Everything is so perfect in this beautiful country, is not so shady and disgusting like in Brazil. And then of course when I got pardon my French, I was like, wow. And so when I look at this files coming out, I have the same thought. I'm like, what kind of so much. What kind of country are we in? You know, it's, it's why are they even bothering?

[A]

Well, I said it before, and I said it yesterday when I was, you know, talking to somebody. I said, sometimes I have to look around and say, are we in South America?

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like, there's so much corruption here. And again, it goes back to me saying, we thought all of these conspiracy theories, you know, and it was a, you know, back in the days, we were like, oh, these are, we are now coming down to, to, to realization that this is all very much real. The government is not what we think. The justice system is not what we think. It cannot be trusted. Our freedom of speech is 100% being taken away from freedom of speech.

[B]

As long as you don't talk about certain people that don't want to be right.

[A]

And we already know who it is. God forbid we talk about the President of the United States. I mean, I feel bad for some of these people on tv. I mean, he wants to fire everybody.

[B]

Yes. It's like, and so sue everybody. And if you talk about him, you're American way.

[A]

The American way. Let's sue everybody.

[B]

Yeah, but I agree with you. I got, I get so shocked because it's sad for me to say because of course I love living here. I've been here for decades, for decades. But I was really sad to see the amount of. COVID up, the amount of corruption, the amount of that you just said in the. I used to think that this only happens in countries like Brazil, third world countries, but here it's the same or even worse because the power is so big they have unlimited money to shut people up.

[A]

Well, I think also what really is really, you know, up in a way, and excuse me my language, but we all know about it, right? And there's like, and it's like, what do we do? What do we do? What do we do? What do we do? What do we do? You know, who do we turn to? You know, and then the more people speak, people are speaking about and talking about and using their voice. So so much about the corruption that is going on right now with, you know, how people are covering up for all these perpetrators. But it's like, what do we do? Because the justice system is failing us so hard in the United States of America. And once it fails us here, that means the other countries are just going like, well, if the United States of America is not doing it, then we don't have to do it because other countries look up to us, you know,

[B]

and another problem in your case, a lot of the victims, such as yourself, are alive and well, and Hence, you want and deserve some measure at least of justice. So what in your mind now, with the chaos that the situation is now, the government said he's dead. Okay, I know, I know you don't think he is and a lot of people agree with you. They don't think he is. But the government said there is no man here to prosecute. Right. She is in this country club style prison. We don't know what's going to happen to her. What. So, you know, given the circumstances in your head, what would be, Is it possible for you to and other victims to feel there is any kind of justice for what happened to you?

[A]

You know, I think every survivor looks at justice in a different way, you know, and I think a lot of the survivors want to build and do a lot of advocacy and pass different laws for, for this generation and future generations. So I think that's one thing that we can do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Bringing justice when Jeffrey Epstein is not here. For me, that is huge justice. Right. Like when we think about, like, oh, okay, well, you know, this man raped this girl and now he'll be in jail for X amount of years. What happens when he gets released? He gets probation and, you know, he gets washed. But does that really stop him from being a pedophile and raping people?

[B]

No.

[A]

Younger, you know, young girls or young boys? No, it doesn't. The perpetrator is only really going to stop when he's no longer here with us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And even though Jeffrey Epstein is no

[B]

longer here with us, quote, unquote.

[A]

Unquote.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I find it. I, I think that is sweet justice. You know, he's no longer going to hurt any more, you know, young girls, you know.

[B]

So another thing that came to my mind, and again, I'm not an attorney, but I'm just throwing stuff out there. He was crazy rich, right. He had so much money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you know what if he died? Okay. Who inherited all of his money and could you go and sue him in civil trial for damages which obviously, personally I think you shouldn't deserve?

[A]

Well, a lot of the survivors did, you know, so when, when we all. Well, when I got subpoenaed, I should say, you know, I, you know, lawyers want to make money. So, you know, that's the first thing. I went to go look for a lawyer. Well, I was presented to, you know, to pick out of a lawyer was just to protect myself. But behind the scenes they were asking for Jeffrey Epstein for a settlement. I wasn't aware of that. Right.

[B]

Your lawyer didn't Tell you.

[A]

Well, I think at the time there was so much going on with talking with the FBI and talking with my lawyers that I didn't know that they were asking for a settlement. You know, I only found out later on when I was able to look at some of my files and some of the emails. So a lot of the girls were able to sue his estate. And before he passed away, he actually moved his money into. To the islands. So I forgot which island it was, but he moved it to the islands, which made it really hard.

[B]

Paradise type places.

[A]

It was. It made really hard for the. For the survivors to.

[B]

You must have stuff in the United States, right? He had so many properties.

[A]

He did.

[B]

Okay, so let's.

[A]

That's his estate. So, you know, we were able to do that.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah. Oh, good.

[A]

So some of the girls did. A lot of the girls missed that little. That. That trial, you know, that you were allowed to sue him. So a lot of the girls, now that the Gender Motive act law is passed, which is just passed in Albany, they are allowed to, you know, go after the state. The girls that didn't go, the survivors didn't go, that were scared to step up, you know, and actually a lot of those survivors that are stepping up now that went into Albany and helped pass the law, they are Brazilian.

[B]

Oh, really? So you are not the only one.

[A]

Yep. They. They're. They're speaking out. So I.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I've been paying a lot more attention to how my body actually performs and recovers lately, especially after going through such major life reset and really focusing on wellness and my health. What surprised me is how much of what we feel during workouts our energy recovery, even our mood, actually starts in our blood with markers we never even think to check. And here's what most people overlook. Our muscles don't just need workouts. They need the right internal environment to actually recover and get stronger. And that's where blood work comes in. Things like our magnesium, iron levels, hormones, all of that directly impacts how we feel day to day. When those are off, everything feels harder than it should. We can feel tired, inflamed, and even not seeing results without knowing why. But when those markers are optimized, that's when our body finally starts working with us, not against us. And this is exactly why I started using Function Health. It gave me a deep, personalized look at what's actually going on inside my body. No guesswork, no trends, but real data. 160, 60 plus lab tests a year so we can see exactly where our hormones stand. No, wait until something feels seriously off to start asking questions. And honestly, it's been a game changer for me. I feel more in control of my health, my energy and my progress than I have in a long time. If you are serious about feeling better, moving better, and actually getting results from everything you're already doing, this is something you really should look into. Check health the way I do 160 plus lab tests a year for only $365. Plus the ability to dive deeper into your results through functions connections to platforms you already use such as chat, GPT and Claude. [e-mail] cat kt or use gift code cat25 for 25 credit or do you remember membership? That's functionhealth.com cat a lot of you guys know my story. I know that a few years ago my life completely fell apart. I had lost my mom, I lost my husband, I lost pretty much all my assets. I was rebuilding my life from absolute scratch while trying to stay strong on the outside, keep working, keep showing up. And honestly, there were moments where I really could have used mental health support back then. But I didn't know about Ruler. And even when you know you need help, trying to find a therapist online who actually takes insurance can feel overwhelming. Everything seems expensive, complicated or impossible to navigate when you're already emotionally drained. That's why I love what Rula is doing. Rula makes mental health care actually accessible. They partner with over 100 insurance plans and the average copay is only around 15 a session. Depending on your coverage it could even be as low as $0. And when you think about it, we use insurance for our physical health so why shouldn't we use it for our mental health too? What I also love about Rula is that they don't just throw you together with the first therapist available, they actually take your goals, preferences, background and what you're looking for into account and then match you with a licensed in network therapist who is aligned with your needs. And there are no frustrating wait lists or endless back and forth emails. You can find the provider who's accepting new patients and appointments can be available available as soon as tomorrow. Rula also supports every part of your mental health journey from therapy to medication management and they stay involved to help make sure your care is actually helping you move forward. Mental health is just as important as physical health and getting help should not feel financially impossible. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually actually covered by insurance visit rula.comcat to get started today. That's Rula. R U L A.comcat K80. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. But because we did mention another thing. A lot, a lot of people comment on the videos that I put on social media. And this comment really drives me crazy. And I am trying to respond. Every single one of them, and there is hundreds and hundreds. They're like, where were the parents? Why was this girl there? Well, and I'm like, number one, don't stop judging the victim. You cannot judge a kid. And of course, a lot of these girls, such as yourself, came from broken homes. Predators always prey on kids with broken homes. Right? You don't. The mother is, God knows, some, some parents were doing drugs, some parents were working. Some parents literally didn't give a about the kids. And in your case, as you mentioned in the first episode that we did, you guys, if you didn't listen, please go there and listen to her story because it's very powerful. You came from us. You're being, you were being abused in your own home.

[A]

Yes, I, I started getting sexually abused by my stepfather as soon as I got to America at 8 years old. And my mom did absolutely nothing. You know, she unfortunately blamed me for even going to the police. Having somebody bring me the courage to go with her to the police and have this, this person stop abusing me. So I, I, we have to say that, you know, today somebody asked me, was like, I don't understand women. How do women not know when they are getting abused in their marriage? I said, when you don't know anything better if you only know that somebody's saying like, hey, shut the up. Hey, do this, do that, and you grow up around that. Yeah, that's what you're used to. And you think that's what it is.

[B]

And you think that's what many. Yes, it takes many, many. It took me 50, 15 years to get out of an abusive marriage. I'm sure it took your mom 17

[A]

years for me to get out of my abusive marriage.

[B]

Yes. But obviously as a child, and I said that we hope that every child is being protected by their parents, but it's not the case in real life. And obviously, this man, not only he was a predator, but I think he was one of the most dangerous types of predator because he had minks, he had money. And when you're desperate and you need to work and you are hustling because you want to eat and you want to live right someplace they know, and they're predators. They pray, they smell blood. Right. And they're going to prey on you.

[A]

And we have to think about it. Like, you have your kid, she's 12, 13, 14 years old. Who gives that kind of responsibility to a child to be the head of household or even blame her for any of the things that she just wants to be free of.

[B]

Right. No, obviously a 14 year old shouldn't be working, shouldn't be out there hustling

[A]

the worry of that. Their main worry should be activity, school, being a teenager.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. But in your case, it's very sad, but it happens to millions of children everywhere in the world. You are not being protected by your parents. You are not living in a sheltered, perfect home situation. And I think it's absurd for someone to ask a child why she did abcd, because obviously, I'm sure you would not want that for you or anybody else.

[A]

I think it's a. These people are living in a bubble and they're very ignorant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think they need to open up their mindset and just do a little research. It's what I say sometimes when I answer people when I do have the chance. So I'm like, hey, just go look at all my story, my full story. I have some episodes where I'm like two hours. I'm talking about my full life. You know, it's not just something we woke up one day and we're like, okay, well, we're gonna do this for money. No, we were pushed to do that and we had no choice. It was, you know, how are we gonna eat? Yeah, how am I gonna do things? How is my mom gonna pay bills? You know, if your mom is not. If your mom and your father is not taking that step to be responsible, a responsible person, parents. Because when you're a parent, you have to be responsible for your kid.

[B]

It's. Oh, my goodness. Yes. But let's be honest again, that's not what he have. It should be what happens with every single child on the planet, but it's not what happens. And for a predator, he. In, in this case, obviously he was also. I'm guessing he must have been a massive sex addict because he's bringing these women. He was Time and time and time and time.

[A]

And having girls go over there six to eight times a day. Right.

[B]

That's sick. That's sick. And the fact they had so much money. So he's. He knows the neighborhoods to go. He knows exactly. He's grooming to go. He had g. He's Grooming older girls to get younger girls, like in your case, and this monster, this gain, whatever the her name is. But they knew exactly where to find girls like you that were so vulnerable that it was easy to lure them in.

[A]

Yeah, it was easy to lure us. And especially when you had girls already going there and had a broken family. And, you know, it's what they say. It's, you know, you have a friend that your friends are who you are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and my friends were coming from broke families. They, you know, their families were drug addicts. Some of them were drug addicts, you know, and I think all of us that were there, he knew to pick that, you know, our young age, because we were going to bring girls at that age. And when I got to 17 years old, I was hanging out with older girls. I wasn't hanging out with the younger girls. So it was very hard for me to keep up with him because I couldn't provide, you know, with what he wanted. So when I would bring him a girl, it's like the girl, I said, she was 7 or she was 18 at the time. And I was like, just say you're 15. And he definitely didn't fall for it. He was so mad, to the point where he was like, I need you to bring me idiots. He's like, I'm tired of you bringing me all these old girls. He's like, I need girls with IDs.

[B]

That is so disgusting.

[A]

It is.

[B]

Now, I do want to mention one thing that I think is also very important because it's. I. I'm a firm believer that I think unless you've been abused yourself, it's very hard for someone to understand how. How painful abuse is. Because we tell our stories and people look like, obviously, luckily, hopefully, most people have not been abused. But it's not something that you get over overnight. Right. It's a very long healing process. So it drives me crazy. Like I told you. I also gave you this example, one of our videos for. During our first interview, we were kind of laughing about something, and you had a beautiful smile on your face. And somebody wrote, why are they smiling? Because it's such a serious subject. And I said, well, she has the right to smile and rebuild her life. And thank goodness, right, that she's doing so incredibly well nowadays. Same with me. But it wasn't something like, you don't get out of that. And the next day you're like, oh, my God, it's such a long journey, right, Marina?

[A]

It's within time and people have to Understand that. Why would you want to see any of the survivors Sad?

[B]

Right.

[A]

This is something that we are trying to help people understand. There is life after abuse, and it's okay to be happy. Nobody wants to live in the past. Who wants to live in the past? Being abused or not. Everyone has different traumas in their life. Nobody wants a person to be dragging it out for the rest of your life. You need to change that and make it into something positive. Unfortunately, this horrific thing happened to me when I was young. Yes, it did. It was terrible. I absolutely hate it. I planned to kill my stepfather. I hated Jeffrey Epstein, among other, you know, abusers that I had. But can you imagine if I was crying every day about it?

[B]

Right.

[A]

How am I supposed to care for my child? Good for you. How am I supposed to care for my mental health? Okay. How am I supposed to care for my four dogs, my house? I have a lot of responsibilities. I can't sit here and be crying about what happened to me in the past. I need to worry about what's today. And it takes a healing. It's a healing process.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that healing process, it. It comes along with taking everybody out of your life. That's literally draining you down. Yes. And giving you these negative, you know, thoughts or energy. You need to. You need to. You know, it's like I say, you need to cacao them.

[B]

Yeah. 100.

[A]

You gotta take them fresh. You gotta start fresh.

[B]

And I. You know, and not to mention, it's

[A]

sad to say that people are like, why is she laughing? Why?

[B]

I would. I wish that. Exactly. And I wish people would say, thank goodness in your case. Marina is doing so well. She's healed. She's living an amazing life. She has a healthy, happy daughter. As opposed to, you know, we. I don't. We don't want anybody to end up like Virginia.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Virginia took her life. Virginia, girlfriend. Girlfriend took her own life. Like, I mean, the. She wrote a beautiful book. She became an outspoken victim. I think we were all rooting for her.

[A]

We're continue to, you know, do the advocacy work that she started.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She has started such an important, you know, job and work, you know, and it took so long for it to take off that unfortunately, she had to pass away for people to take this seriously. So, you know, I think that it's only important for us to fight for each other and to not bring us down, but to help us along this fight. And I think people have a problem with that. When they see somebody else happy, they're like. Like, we don't like that.

[B]

We don't want it. Yeah.

[A]

And why? Why? This is why we are getting divided and not united.

[B]

Well, we need to change that, because again, I think by speaking up, we give voice to so many victims of abuse that don't speak up. And more importantly, if anyone out there is in a tough situation right now, hopefully we give them strength to get out, because we are living proof that you can rebuild. You can start over. You can find happiness at any age. And you can heal. Right? You can heal. And yes, I think collectively, I would hope, as a society, there is only two teams. Either you're a criminal. Yeah. Then you're going to protect the criminals. But if you're not, stand by the victims. If you are a decent human. Right. Be proud of the fact that they are speaking up, that you're speaking up. Because again, you cannot keep putting this dirt under the carpet. And if the victims don't speak up, guess what? They put the.

[A]

The perpetrator will only continue. He will not be stopped. It's what I say. If you don't speak up, the perpetrator will continue. Right. So speak up so that it can be stopped. And okay, maybe it happened to you, but you're saving the next person.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So don't ever forget to speak up. You don't have to tell the whole world.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But do tell somebody. That will make a change. And when somebody is speaking about making a change and they're happy and they're advocating to make that change, don't look at them and go, like, why is she smiling? Well, we are healed. We are trying to make progress here. And on that way of that process, we want to be happy.

[B]

You deserve to be happy, period. Right? You deserve to be happy. You know, it's so funny that you said that, because the other day, I have no idea what happened to me. And I was walking my dog and I was smiling. I was like. And then I stopped myself. And I'm like, I feel guilty that I'm so happy. You know, can you believe that?

[A]

I'm like, is it because other people.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know. Because I've been. You know, so much happened. And then I'm like, you know what? It. I deserve to be happy. It took me so long to get here. But we have this thing in our brain. You have to rewire your brain, because like you said, when you give an interview or when you talk, or in my case, I do the podcast, people experience expect. Oh, if it's true that they were a victim of whatever they should be the most miserable in the world.

[A]

Right? Are we supposed to do that for the rest of our lives?

[B]

No. Right. And who.

[A]

And I think at the end of the day, people would be like, oh, my God, here we go again. This girl with her sad story being all sad. Listen, guys, we talk. It's to empower women and to also, like we said, to help them understand. This process that we went through was horrific. But we are managing to shape this into such a positive way and helping other women and men who have been through abuse as well. Like, hey, it's okay to smile, it's okay to have fun. It's okay to be sexy, it's okay to be classy. It's okay to feel good about yourself and to have happy thoughts. You know, this is part of your healing journey. And once you step into that world, you're like, oh, no, I could never

[B]

go back to that. And I would hope, I believe that normally the abuser, A big part of being abuser, what turns them on is the power they have over you.

[A]

The control.

[B]

Yes, the control. The power. So when you build another life for you and you're happy and you're smiling and you feel powerful, you take their power away. You're basically saying, you know what? It doesn't matter what you did to me. You didn't destroy me. And I think that's very important for self healing. It's a very powerful thing to do to give yourself.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Give your stuff before I let you go because we're running out of time. We're going to have to do part three. Quick opinion. I know we talked briefly about it on the first episode, but I want to put it here again really quickly before we go. It was super crazy, right? The day Melania went on tv, like impromptu. Do you want to drink some love?

[A]

Yes, I do.

[B]

When Melania went on tv, impromptu, defending herself out of the blue, nobody expected it, nobody knew. Again, I'm not a part of the case. And I was like it because I believe if you're not guilty, if you're doing anything wrong, why would you just go there and say, by the way, I didn't.

[A]

Well, it was because of Amanda Uncarrow.

[B]

Yeah, but she knew Amanda 100. So she was like being proactive, defending herself.

[A]

She knew Amanda was going to come out with those.

[B]

I'm sorry, girl. Drink.

[A]

I know you hear me, right?

[B]

I feel so bad. Please. I think I checked on my own bread. Catch her breath. We are drinking. Love has no sugar.

[A]

Just. I see.

[B]

There is no sugar. No Sugar at all? Just electrolytes. Potassium.

[A]

What is this from?

[B]

It's called love drink.

[A]

I've never heard of it.

[B]

Well, now you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Thank you for sending love. Thank God for love saved Marina.

[A]

Yeah, Seriously, I'm like, almost crying here now. I think that, you know, the first lady knew that Amanda was going to come out with. With this, and she needed to prepare a speech to protect herself, you know, so Amanda holds a lot of information, and we all wonder, how can we talk to this young woman who has all this information? But I think Amanda's only intentions are, hey, I just want my. My kid back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think, you know, and I don't blame her.

[B]

And it's.

[A]

And it's pretty messed up when people are like. When people are like, she needs to talk. I'm like, guys, she wants her feedback.

[B]

Give her a spin through she's been through.

[A]

It looks like she's been through a lot of.

[B]

In her life separating a. And. And you mentioned that to me too, which I think is awful. The Brazilian press is ruthless with the Brazilian vict is like, what's wrong with you people? If anything, they should be a million times more supportive of whatever you need. Right. And they're judging and pressuring.

[A]

Look at our country, how bad the. The. The trafficking, the raping. We look at the favelas, which is the sl.

[B]

To do an entire episode about that in Portuguese.

[A]

It's so there's so much work to do in other countries and we need to. We need to, you know, us as American women, you know, we need to move that into other countries and bring that empowerment and change that culture over there, you know, so it's hard work, but yes, I think it's something that, you know, is on my. It's on my list.

[B]

Yeah. We have. Next up, we have to do another one in Portuguese and call out the attention because I think we have to. We need to be more supportive of the victims as opposed. I understand people having questions and doubts, and you are so open in terms of answering all the questions the same way I am when people question my story. What do you mean? This. And I'm like, ask me anything you want. Everything is open record in founder, but there's a big difference between having doubts and questions and judging and. And saying nasty things about something you don't know anything about. Big difference.

[A]

Huge difference. Yep.

[B]

I agree with you, Marina. I feel so honored that your story united has brought us together. I know we're friends forever.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Now you just have to come down and visit me maybe just once and meet my daughter and my daughter.

[B]

I would love that. Because now we know that you live near my sister and my nephew. Right?

[A]

Very close. Yeah.

[B]

I gotta connect you girls. Yes.

[A]

You have to connect.

[B]

Yes. But I have to say, you're very brave. Don't stop speaking. Congratulations on everything that you do for your case and other victims. And yes, you are gorgeous and fabulous and you have a beautiful smile. So keep smiling.

[A]

Well, thank you for having me and thank you for building this great platform where we can use our voices, you know, and to continue fighting. It's also very brave of you to have this platform where people can openly speak about not only their, you know, past traumas and abuse, but to talk about what things are going on in our. In our country and in our world right now.

[B]

Right. Like I said, if we don't speak up, the abuse continues, the wrong things continue. A lot of us, hopefully, we're paving the way for more and more and more, especially Latinas, Brazilians, immigrants, you know, European women too, are very shame about everything that happened. Don't be afraid. And I'm sure I'll have you back on the show because we're gonna have millions more questions for you. And I'm putting the link to her Instagram here on the audio episode so you guys can follow her. Beautiful work because he puts. She puts some amazing videos out there. Thank you, my love.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[B]

Safe out there. And by the way, I'm also putting a lot of resources. If you know someone or if you are being a victim of abuse, if you need help, I'm putting a bunch of resources right down here. Phone numbers, links, websites where you can get help. Because you can always, always, always, always get help. Okay?

[A]

Amen.

[B]

Amen. Be safe out there. Thank you, my love. Thank you so much. Amazing.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you.

[B]

See you guys very soon. Yay.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

Hi, Tora Couture here. I'm the host of Tell me what Happened, a podcast that shares true stories of people helping people. We have a ton of amazing new episodes, including one of my favorite stories we've ever done. Listen to season six of Tell me what Happened.

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Ugh. I love my VRBO for the good reason.

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