Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (2:06)

Well, communication is simply how we share ourselves, right? I mean, so if we're talking about sex, if we're talking about what we want to eat for dinner, what our coffee order is, you know, someone is not going to know us. We're not going to get our needs met, our bodies won't be cared for, and we may have an allergic reaction and go into anaphylactic shock. If we don't say, you know, I'm allergic to nuts, or I don't like it when you call me this, or fuck me harder. So we have to communicate. We have to. I mean, at a very basic level, I think and hope that everybody knows this. But the challenge is that we can know this on the one hand and yet become so activated, triggered, reactive, what, whatever, by a dynamic in a relationship that we become anxious to the point where we shut down, forget how to communicate, withhold, don't ask in a specific way that may guarantee that we would actually receive what we're asking for. So there's a lot of emotion that gets in the way of us communicating. And so it's really important to understand that people often want to just, like, work on their communication skills, but what they're not really understanding is it's not about finding the better. I mean, it is, yes, about finding better language, blah, blah, blah, but. But oftentimes the challenge people have with communication isn't about the words. It isn't about the language either. It's about what stops them from connecting, finding, using the right language that would be helpful to facilitate the conversations that they want to have.

Kat (Podcast Host) (3:32)

Oh, my God, that is so true. So let me ask you a question. Me, as an example. I love to communicate. I'm like, super open when I'm in a relationship. I just tell the person, like, this is what I want. La, la, la. Every single person I've ever, they all say to me the same thing. They're like, oh, my God, I can't believe you're just so open. I can't believe you just communicate everything you want to say. And it always surprises me that people say that, you know, coming from men. And I realize, especially men that have been married, right, going through divorce, they are so afraid of communicating and speaking their mind, whatever it is, whether it's about sex or needs. La, la, la, la. Do you have any pointers in terms of, like, how do you become less afraid and more open to just speaking your mind? Because I cannot imagine being in a relationship without communicating. Well.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (4:28)

Yeah. And I mean, the thing is, the real challenge is that some people are afraid and anxious about communication and they don't even know that they are, that it just shows up as withdrawal or a shutdown or we don't need to talk about this, or do we always have to talk about this? But really, any kind of avoidance of communication isn't just like, this feels uncomfortable, and so I'm not going to do it. I don't Want to, don't know how to. It freaks me out. It's an unconscious expression of shame. So the challenge is that many people don't even know that they're afraid of communicating, don't know how to communicate, etc. So we really have to be open to questioning and reflecting on ourselves to really even get to the place where like, okay, how am I going to communicate better? Especially for men, because men grew up learning that being vulnerable, talking about feelings, not only was it bad, but it just wasn't an option. And so that's why a lot of men really struggle to even connect with themselves and to even be able to say what they're feeling, because it's just really not been an option for them to even register feeling in that deep way that some of us do. So, again, a lot of the stuff with communication isn't as simple. Like, here's the line to use. The line's a tool. But the tool isn't going to help you chisel away at anything if you don't even know what you're chiseling at. So we need to know what the material is that we're working with, and then we need to use the chisel. So again, you know, it comes from doing these two things. One, self reflection, developing self awareness, blah, blah, blah, and then practicing what you learn in that self awareness with a person.

Kat (Podcast Host) (6:06)

Yeah. You always mentioned that everybody would benefit from doing therapy. Yeah, I agree with you. But that's also another big taboo for a lot of people, especially men. I know that a lot of men that don't know how to communicate or have issues having a good relationship or even talking about what they want in bed. And then you say, let's go to therapy. Right. I have a lot of girlfriends who are married and their husbands just refuse because they think, you know, there's something wrong with me if I go to therapy. Is there a way that we can break the stigma, actually convince someone that it can be a great idea if you are having issues in your relationship, if you can't communicate what you want with your partner.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (6:48)

Yeah. I mean, the stigma still exists. I remember when I was growing up, it was actual stigma, like people talk would actually say, you know, therapy is for crazy people. Therapy is only if you're weak or, you know, know is shameful. And now, at least culturally, that it's more accepted and people are encouraged to go. But that same kind of value nonetheless, that people grow up with, it's not like that just disappears because culture changes. So that stigma around mental Health around therapy, around getting help, even around medications. You know, it's still. It still exists. I mean, you can't force anyone to do anything. You can really just normalize encouragement, you know, talk about what. Where values come from and why they're not necessarily right. I mean, but beyond trying to convince.

Kat (Podcast Host) (7:37)

Somebody, that's the tough one, right?

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (7:40)

Yeah. Isn't always the most helpful road to go down. You know, I think that the real focus is just on ourselves.

Kat (Podcast Host) (7:46)

Yeah. Oh, my God. I couldn't agree with you more. Yeah. So it's 23rd. Yeah, it's 2026. You did a really cool post. Let's stop doing this in 2026. So I want to go over a few of these because they're so important. For example, stop calling everyone toxic or a narcissist. Yeah, lately there's a lot of that out there. But how do we know? Is there a way or. I mean, how do you know that? Am I really dating a narcissist? Am I really dating a toxic person before you call them that before you make a mistake.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (8:26)

Well, I mean, in writing that, I wasn't suggesting that people remove the word toxic or narcissist out of the language that they use, but more so to reflect on what the label implies for them. You know, so often we're really talking about. When people talk about narcissism, the conversation's usually around who the other person is, what they did that makes them a narcissist or toxic, Their behavior, why, how terrible it is, how evil it is, whatever, as opposed to how does their narcissism impact me? How does their personality hurt me? How did I get to the place where I was deeply attached to somebody who is potentially narcissistic or has narcissistic traits or woundings that hurt me? So it's more so to shift away from a discussion or analyzing of other people and more so to shift back on ourselves about what our experience is of those other people and our experience isn't. They gaslit me. The experience is I was gaslit and it made me question myself. And that parallels the ways in which my family still gaslights me and still tells me that my feelings are too much or that I'm wrong or never agrees to me or supports me. And how the person that may or may not be a narcissist is often usually a symbol of someone or something in our own history that is begging for some version of resolution and repair.

Kat (Podcast Host) (9:59)

That is so true.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (10:00)

Call people a narcissist, fine. But like the Focus can't just be on. And can you believe they did this, this, this, this, this and that? And if they're doing this and if they, you know, show me no empathy, that means they're a narcissist and it was just so toxic and blah blah, blah. You know, that's really just information. But the real kind of core and meaning is the impact that all of those traits and dynamics has had on us. And what that parallels in our childhood.

Kat (Podcast Host) (10:30)

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Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (12:19)

Yeah. Forever.

Kat (Podcast Host) (12:21)

Yes, forever. Why do you think that is? I mean, because we know, right? You know something's bad for you. I mean, the word toxic, you know, that person is bad for you. Why do we do that?

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (12:36)

Well, again, it goes back to history. It goes back to history and it also goes into the dynamic. What happens when you're with somebody who is harmful in that way is that the relational dynamic then becomes structured around that harm, which creates a version of a cycle of abuse, which that means some version where there's intermittent reinforcement, where there's a High and a low and a high and a low and a chase. That creates this cycle in our nervous system where the person is the person that causes the wounding, the hurt, but also the only person that can relieve the wounding and the hurt. And so because of that, our entire attachment system and nervous system is then becomes oriented around relief seeking. And that relief, again, can only come from that person who is harming us. And so it's a cycle. People. People call this trauma bonds. And it's very real and very, very difficult to detach from. Some people call it an addiction. I don't love an addiction framework because it mimics addiction. It's not an addiction, but it's very similar to that. And that's why it's so difficult to leave. Because by the time we realize, oh, fuck, this person is actually really, really bad for me and preventing me from growing and all of whatever else is happening, we're already hooked up. You know, it's not like we notice on day three, and we're like, oh, okay, this is. This isn't gonna be good. I'm out. You know, we notice six months in when the attachment is formed. You're saying, I love you. The relationships becoming integrated into your life externally, internally, and it becomes very, very difficult.

Kat (Podcast Host) (14:11)

Yeah. And I think, at least for me, it was a component in my marriage. When I met my husband, he. He used to drink a little bit, and then he drank more and more and more. The more money he made, the more he drank. He became an alcoholic. In my mind, I had this. This mindset. I guess I thought the person is gonna change for me because they love me. And I know a lot of people do that, like, nowadays, because I do the show and I get messages from people all over the world. A lot of women say that to me, like, oh, but he loves me so much. We believe this love and this relationship is going to change that person's behavior, whatever it is. In my case, my husband drank and became abusive. Sometimes the guy cheats and the woman thinks, oh, he loves me, he's gonna stop. The other day, this girl sent me this question. How do I make him stop cheating on me? Because he loves me, but he's cheating on me. And, I mean, obviously I think this is wrong, that we should not think that somebody's gonna change for us. Correct, Todd?

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (15:13)

Well, it's not as simple. You know, the idea of a relationship is that both people change, Relationships change us. But that's a different conversation than someone who harms us. You know, the change that relationships bring you know, the healthy, the really kind of wonderful and beautiful. Change isn't about harm. It's just about, you know, we become more honest. We face our stuff. You grow together. Not you harm me, and then you don't harm me. That's different. That's usually a reenactment of trauma. And the thing when people say is he loves me, is what they're really saying is, I've had good experiences with them where I've seen a different part of them, and that's made me feel loved.

Kat (Podcast Host) (15:55)

Yeah.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (15:57)

And I have love for them, and it's an attachment. It's connection, and it's deep, and I don't want to lose them. And there's a lot of fear wrapped up in that. But the reality is that people are looking at potential. You know, this is such a cliche line already, but it's true. I mean, the conversation around potential versus reality, and then also capacity is that people are looking at potential and confusing that for capacity. The capacity isn't about, you can do this on Monday. Capacity is that you do this all. Every day is about consistency, especially when it comes to behaviors that harm others. It's not like you're just nice three days a week and then you're harmful four. That's, you know, and that's not to say, oh, well, there's potential there. There actually isn't potential there. Because what you're talking about is we want capacity in our relationships. Capacity for consistent kindness, consistent presence, and consistent safety. That's the capacities we need. And capacity means every day. Every day, someone is a safe partner. Not a perfect partner, but someone that isn't gonna lash out, that isn't gonna cheat, that isn't gonna lie in ways that harm us and isn't gonna do this toxic shit that really wounds us.

Kat (Podcast Host) (17:10)

Yeah. Oh, my God, that is so true.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (17:13)

You know, that's the real challenge here. And I've had the experience myself, too, where I'm like, well, I've seen it. You know, he can. He can be super sweet, and then it just ships. And then you chase that super sweet part.

Kat (Podcast Host) (17:24)

Mm.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (17:26)

But it doesn't matter if someone's super sweet. Sometimes it has to be all the time. Someone has to be nice to you all the time. They can't just be nice. That's not a healthy or safe relationship. And that's not potential. That's reality, which is limitation and an unsafe partner.

Kat (Podcast Host) (17:43)

Oh, my God. I'm so glad you're saying that. Listen, it took me 15 freaking years to learn that, and get the hell out. And I always say, I hope nobody takes as long as I did because you're so right. You can be walking on eggshells like Monday or through Friday or on the weekend. You know, it's just impossible to live like that.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (18:02)

Yeah. And it takes everybody a long time. You know, I think that I've had so much therapy, and I've had therapists that are like, well, this is an addiction. Why do you keep doing this? You know, this is bad for you, blah, blah, blah. And then I've also had therapists have said, yes, this isn't ending the result that you want, but this is part of the process. This is part of the process and the journey that you're taking to get to the other side. And I much prefer that than, I didn't do this soon enough.

Kat (Podcast Host) (18:26)

Oh, yeah, totally. Now, do you think, because I'm not a therapist, I'm not an expert, but I have a vibe that a lot of people stay in unhappy relationships, toxic relationship, whatever it is, simply because they are so afraid of being alone. That's another one that I get all the time. People send me messages like, oh, how do you sleep? Alone. Oh, my God, I'm so scared. I'm so afraid to age alone. No, no. And I personally, in my journey, one of the most empowering, amazing things that I learned is to be happy on my own. Like, to actually enjoy my life and appreciate my company and not need a partner. I think that's a mistake. I think we should want a partner but don't need a partner. Do you, as a therapist, do you think that's a main reason why people stay because they are simply afraid of being alone?

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (19:23)

Well, I think the fear of being alone is something that's just there for everyone, whether you're in a relationship or not. You know, you can feel deeply alone lying next to somebody in bed, you know, at night, sink at night, to some. Somebody turning over. And you could cry and be completely alone and feel completely alone. So what we're really talking about is this. I kind of wrote about this in a substack I posted this morning. But, you know, this emptiness, this hole that we all have, many of us who didn't get nourishment and love and kindness in childhood, that creates this kind of. This wound that we identify with, with and live by, which is I can't be alone. And I need something or someone to make me feel safe. And so it's something that really plays a big role in relationships and dynamics and also why people stay in relationships and why people seek relationships. You know, this kind of living from this wound identified place of I can't be alone, I don't want to be alone. I'm afraid of being alone. And it's something that every single person will have to work through. No matter what their relationship status is.

Kat (Podcast Host) (20:37)

How do they work through it?

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (20:39)

And they might work through it multiple times. You know, someone might work through it in their 20s, and then again in their 40s, and then again in their 70s. You know, that this is a. Just a part of what it means to be alive is to grapple with our own solidarity, to grapple with our own aloneness. And it's a tough one, but it's not necessarily, you know, it's kind of loneliness without resolution. That's something that we all kind of have to learn how to accept and live with. Because as you're saying, you know, you learn to be alone. And it feels good. But I'm sure there are days where you're like, fuck this, I don't want to be alone. I'd like to, like, you know, wake up in the morning with somebody. You know, it's not this state of, I love being alone.

Kat (Podcast Host) (21:19)

Yeah, no, totally. But I don't feel, you know, I never have this.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (21:23)

Right. There's not that hunger.

Kat (Podcast Host) (21:24)

Yeah, right. Well, like people ask me, do you want a partner? Like, yeah, sure. But I know exactly what I want in a partner, and I have no problem waiting for it. I'm not gonna be in a miserable and happy relationship. You know what I mean? And I. I enjoy being. I'm in a phase of my life that I learned. Like I said, I enjoy being alone. I enjoy being independent. But that's great. I don't have the fear. Like, I never fear it, but I know a lot of people have that fear. How do you work through it? I guess you gotta do therapy.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (21:56)

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. A lot of it comes to go to therapy, Read a book. Yeah. I mean, again, the fear, I think, is something that's gonna just pop in and out throughout our lives. But how you work with it is again, you know, understanding it and then being intentional with how you act and how you interact with the world in ways that can help you feel more grounded in yourself. So becoming more aware of what the story of being alone was like for you throughout your whole life. Like, for me, I was deeply afraid of being alone as a kid. I couldn't go to sleep at night. I was afraid of the dark. You know, being alone has Always been something that's been scary for me. But there's a really. There's a very, very deep story to that. And so then understanding that's really important for everybody as to what it is. Where does that fear come from? Whatever. And then building a life, people, places and things that help support those fears, not solve those fears, but support who you want to be in those fears. Meaning support your independence, support your ability to say, I'm going to try new things and have enjoyable experiences, etc. Etc.

Kat (Podcast Host) (23:15)

A lot of people believe that they need a partner in order to be happy, especially women. A lot of women say, literally, they say that out loud, like, I need someone, I need, oh, my God, what am I gonna do? They. They have no identity without a partner. I mean, personally, I think that's a huge mistake. I think you need to be happy with your own life. You need to be happy with yourself. You shouldn't, like, think you need someone. I think that's a big difference between wanting and needing someone. I don't think if you're. If you're unhappy with your life, you know, I don't think you're gonna meet someone and they're gonna make you happy. Do you agree with me? What's your take on this one?

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (24:03)

Yeah, I mean, look, it's tough because, yeah, there's a big difference between need and want. And it depends how deep the need is, you know, how hungry, how much of an ache, how much woundedness we feel in that I need, how incomplete or whole we feel. So it all really depends. But something to definitely look at that some people do default to these places and they just stay there and they say, well, I need this. And they become defined by that, that I do not have value. I do not have worth. My life is not worth living. If I'm not going to be in a relationship, what's the point? I'm going to be alone. I don't want to be alone at this age. At this age, at this age, at this age, whatever. A lot of people say these things and they just breeze right past it. But when you're saying these things, you really want to stop and be like, okay, well, what's going on for me here? You know, what is this really about? Is this about the fact that I really don't want to live without. If, if I'm not in a relationship? Is this about me feeling alone or disconnected from people? What is this about? Because really what people are talking about is a life they haven't lived. It's just fear I'm not going to be happy if I'm not in a relationship. Well, you're not in that space now. So the better question is, what would make you feel happy, calmer today? This kind of anticipatory fear about partnership and relationship status is a really big, you know, this kind of future tripping. The pre. Disappointment and the hopelessness. You know, it's a really big thing to flag. One, it's, you know, going to be an issue for you in your present if you're really creating this kind of a structure for yourself. Two, it prevents you from looking at yourself and your life or what you might add to make it more enjoyable or to make it feel fuller. And three, if you are approaching dating from this place, you may end up alone because you're approaching people with this kind of wound and desperation of, I can't be alone. And you know, I was actually wrong. It's not that you'll end up alone, but you may end up in relationships that are defined by that wound, which isn't what you want either. So the real focus can't be on if in the future, at some point or at this age or whatever, it has to be in today. What do I want today? If you're not in a relationship today, what? You know, sure, you can acknowledge the fact that you might be sad or upset if you never ever find a relationship ever again. But what's happening today? What are their plans? Who are you gonna see? What are you gonna do? What are you gonna read? What are you gonna cook? What are you gonna do to make your life feel like you wanna live it today? And so that's, you know, the challenge, and it's a cultural thing, is that we're all so like, we're going through life at rapid speed. And we're also going through our predictions for our life at rapid speed. And those predictions are then shaping our present. So we really kind of have to slow the fuck down.

Kat (Podcast Host) (26:52)

Yeah.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (26:53)

And see if we can be present in whatever's coming up for us now. Understand that and then do things that make today feel different.

Kat (Podcast Host) (27:03)

Don't you think that the more we have going on with our own lives, if you happy with your work or if you're happy with your projects, if you take good care of yourself, if you have hobbies, friends, you know, if you have good stuff going on that makes you happy on a daily basis, you are much more likely to find an amazing partner, an amazing relationship. Because this is how I'm thinking. Like, a lot of people put all this Responsibility into someone. You know what I mean? Like, a lot of single people, they think, oh, he's gonna solve all my problems. You know, he's got this. Prince Charming is gonna come and he's gonna make everything better. And I think that's, like, completely unrealistic.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (27:45)

Do you agree? Oh, yeah. Yes, I agree. No one thing, no person, no dog, no piece of furniture, no beautiful bag is ever, Nothing is ever going to do anything and fill that kind of a hole. Nothing is going to solve our life. So, again, another thing to pay attention to. If these are the thoughts or the things that we're telling ourselves.

Kat (Podcast Host) (28:11)

Yeah, I agree. Now, a lot of people, same thing. They've been. I mean, I think all of us, right? If you're in a relationship at one point or another, you've been hurt. Maybe someone cheated on you, maybe someone lied to you, whatever it is that they did to you. So I see tons and tons of people repeating this question, like, oh, this guy cheated on me. All men are pigs. Or all. All women are gold diggers. Because, you know, she. She did this and she did that. So they keep transferring this trauma into future relationships. Like they already decided that everybody in the universe sucks. I have friends like that. I mean, I have a really good friend that he found out his wife was cheating on him. This was like a year ago to this day. And, I mean, he's dating all the women, but he treats women like now because he thinks, oh, all women are like disgusting cheaters. I mean, I think it's crazy to transfer what somebody did to us into new relationships. Do you agree? And is there any way to stop that, doing that?

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (29:23)

Yeah. I mean, this is something, you know, this is. This is how people live unconsciously. The unconscious is the. To live unconsciously is to do what your friend is doing, which is to transfer the unresolved into other people and to project the unresolved into other people. But to be more conscious of that would be to understand, okay, I'm projecting this onto this person. I have work to do here. I have to work through whatever was broken, whatever hurt me and past relationships, and have a better understanding so I can show up in relationships and have a different outcome.

Kat (Podcast Host) (30:01)

Yeah. How do you do that? Therapy.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (30:05)

Therapy? Yeah. I mean, a lot of reflection and therapy and work to understand yourself.

Kat (Podcast Host) (30:11)

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Kat (Podcast Host) (32:31)

I think you know, at the end of the day like people that are really hurt. If you cannot resolve it on your own, it's probably a really good idea to seek therapy, right Todd?

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (32:44)

Yeah, I mean it starts to sound a little cartoonish but it's not false. I mean there are many ways to self reflect and develop insight. You can read a book, you can take an online course, you could do go on a retreat. You can do a bunch of different things. You could go on ChatGPT and ask them to give you a list of questions to reflect upon about why you are stuck. I have a course on being stuck. There are so many different things that you can do. It doesn't have to be formal therapy, but unfortunately, culturally we don't have spaces for self reflection, insight building and action, self help. We really don't. The only space is therapy or coaching. That's really it. And so that's where people go. Just like, where do you want to go if you're hungry, what are you going to do? What do you do? Someone said that you go to the grocery store or you go to a restaurant. It's the same thing. If something's wrong with your body, you go to the doctor. If something's wrong with your mind and soul or spirit, you go to a therapist or someone else. But you do have to do something to work through these things. This comes back to the stigma part, the part that I don't need it, whatever. But that's a lot of the answer to, well, what do you do? Comes down to that. It's like, well, what do you do if you have chronic constipation and, you know, you go to the gastroenterologist, maybe you need a colonoscopy, you do something. Otherwise if you don't, you're gonna be very uncomfortable, you're gonna have stomach pains. You may not be able to participate in certain things because you can't sit for long enough. You might get hemorrhoids. You know, it can really get bad. So.

Kat (Podcast Host) (34:21)

Yeah, but it's kind of like you said, when it comes to our mind, for some reason people don't take care of it as much as, like you said, we take care of our bodies, but when it comes to your mind, you do nothing. Yeah. You think it's a cultural thing. Interesting.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (34:34)

Yeah. I mean, if we grew up with people being like, okay, Mondays are therapy days, or Mondays are self work days in school, or like, you know, set an intention for the day or literally anything. I think that would help teach all of us that our mind, our wishes, our longings, our feelings are important. But we don't, you know, we live in a world that's organized around productivity, around success, around money, around superficial shit.

Kat (Podcast Host) (35:04)

Yeah. Needless to say, obviously, I think it's absurd. You think if somebody cheated on you and you decide, oh, everybody else is a cheater, or if you dated a pathological liar or a narcissist, you think like, oh, all men are going to do the same. You know, it's. I mean, that's a crazy way of thinking. And I'm shocked how many people out there, once something happens to them, that's it, you know, they're like set for life and they decide that's what somebody else is gonna do to me.

Sleep Number Announcer (35:35)

Yes.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (35:36)

I mean that's how trauma works, you know, that's how, you know, if we experience trauma in childhood, that's the assumptions we make. That happens as an adult. Same thing. But the thing is that we end up actually recreating the very dynamics by developing these rigid beliefs is that we develop a blind spot and we say that everybody is like this, then we develop a blind spot where we can't really differentiate between the people that are actually like that and the people that are actually safe partners.

Kat (Podcast Host) (36:04)

Yeah, I love that. Before I let you go, I want to ask you really quick about self love because I know you write about that all the time and I think it's so important. But that's one of the things you wrote on your 2026 post. So maybe we can elaborate a little bit because obviously I do think self love is so important. Right. If we don't love ourselves, I don't know how you expect someone to love you. But you always say this one you wrote, stop obsessing about self love. Self love will not solve all your problems. It's not the holy grail to a challenge free life. Can you explain to people that are listening what you mean by that?

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (36:44)

Yeah, self love's important. You know, it's like, yeah, okay, love yourself. Also understand that it's not like this chronic state of I'm in love with myself. It's a changing thing. But anyway, it's important. But I think the reason why I say that is because the way that self love is presented is in this very isolated way, like it's something that you do in your journal. It's something that you do when you light a candle and you meditate for 20 minutes. It's something that you do when you like turn some nice music on, have some tea and breathe deeply. It's something that, you know, that kind of a thing where self love and self care and self nourishment get kind of collapsed into this category and relationships, other people in the world become separate. So where self love, self and other become separate. And so that's the problem with self love these days is that self love can never be separated from love for others is that they're kind of co occurring dynamics. We can't say I love myself and then isolate yourself from other people. That's, that's not self love at all. You can treat yourself with so much love, but if you're pushing other people away and you're isolating yourself, you're not loving yourself. So that's such a good point. Involves relational love and relational love involves self love. So it's both. You know, we really should be talking about both. That you can't have self without the other. We're literally social creatures. You can't just isolate yourself and love yourself in isolation and heal yourself in isolation and then walk out the door and then interact with people. You kind of have to do it all at the same time, you know, you can't love yourself and then pick a partner that's a shitty partner. That's not self love, you know, so it's about who we pick, the places we go to, the life that we create. It isn't just about a belief, because I think people think self love is a belief. Self love is an action. It's an action that we take with other people in the world and the things around us and how that then impacts us and that creates a cycle.

Kat (Podcast Host) (38:40)

Wow, that's so powerful and it's so important. So on that note, like you said, you know, you go out there, you practice self love love, and it's the beginning of the year. Of course, a lot of people are wondering, I don't want to make the same mistakes as last year. I want to find the right partner. I don't want to keep finding toxic people in my life. Are there any baby steps or any final message that you can send anyone out there listening? How do you go out the door and don't make the same mistake over and over and over again? Understand? We're not supposed to be loving ourselves and staying home, stuck with our dogs. Like I do a lot, by the way. The more I live, the less I like people. It's a big problem for me because I'm like, oh my God, I can't deal. It's too many crazy people out there. So what, what you just said, like, applies to me. I gotta make an effort and be more social than I am. But how do we. Is there baby steps that we can avoid making the same mistakes or. I mean, I, I think one goes without saying, like, don't ignore the red flags. If you see a red flag in someone, run. Right. That's another mistake we make a lot. But do you have any pointers?

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (39:52)

I'm actually not going to answer the question, but I'm gonna answer, but I'm Gonna go a different direction. Okay, I'm gonna say instead you are gonna make the same mistakes again. We all make the same mistakes over and over and over again. Sometimes we learn a lesson and sometimes we don't. But I think the real important part is how you are with yourself when you make those mistakes. How do you treat yourself? What do you do? Do you shame yourself? Do you collapse? Do you withdraw from the world? Or do you use that as an opportunity to learn and grow? So I think that this is another thing that kind of the self help stuff gets wrong is you know, this kind of repeating patterns over and over. Our whole life is a pattern of repetition, but it's. What do we do with that? Repetition and the repetition and the mistakes and the problems and the failures and the falling is all very, a huge important process. Part of the process, because when we don't make those mistakes, we don't learn. And so make the mistakes, make them over and over again, but then do something with them. Turn them into some new learned insight or reality or action plan, etc. But definitely do not beat yourself up. Because making the same mistakes again is just what it means to be a human being and alive as we repeat and repeat, repeat, repeat until we change course and then we repeat and repeat and then we change course. You know, so we have to really get rid of shame and really, really, because that prevents us from learning and growing. We're just shaming ourselves. And just try to understand yourself when you make these mistakes and see and play with what happens with if you can develop certain awareness and action plans and if you make the same thing again, there's something more there for you to learn.

Kat (Podcast Host) (41:30)

I love that. That's very soothing. Last but not least, it breaks my heart when I hear someone out there saying, I've been burned so many times. That's it. I'm going to give up on love. That's it. I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life. I think we should never give up on trying to, to find love. I think it's a big part of life. I mean there's some like super young girls. There's some girl that was on People magazine like a couple months ago. She's like in her late 20s and she's like, I've been so burned, I'm never gonna. I'm like, are you kidding me? But do you agree with me? Should we like not give up on finding love? Or it's, it's okay that some people are just like, oh, I don't want to ever try this again?

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (42:15)

Yeah, I mean, fear is pretty strong. I mean, I think the thing is, is we've really forgotten how to go through normal cycles in our life of rupture and repair. Whether it's love or job loss or something, we are always going to get hurt. So we've really become so averse to pain and any kind of discomfort that oftentimes people will go, will say, I'm never doing this ever again. And they don't, or they avoid dating for years. And, you know, I think that's not to say that's wrong for some people. That's I guess, what works for them. But, you know, so much what you're saying, for you, for me, that's not a realistic plan for us.

Kat (Podcast Host) (42:53)

No.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (42:54)

So, you know, we do have to develop, you know, resiliency in the face of being hurt. And so a lot of people just can't tolerate it. And they're saying, I just don't want to tolerate it. And I think we've created a lot of people in this culture who completely, completely just avoid, shut down, withdraw. It's too much. I'm not gonna do it. They download an app, they talk to somebody, and then they say, you know what? No, this doesn't make any sense for me. And this is why so many people are avoidant is because they're avoidant and so fearful that they totally just check out. So, you know, I think it's an important thing to face the thing that we say we're never gonna do it again unless we're actually talking about touching a hot stove and getting burned or something like that. But when it comes to like heartbreak, something like that, or disappointment, you know, it's something to really try to understand because you can avoid dating and you can have plenty of heartbreak in other areas of your life with your friends, with your colleagues, just in general as a person living in this world, I mean, so there's really no way to avoid pain. So this kind of pain avoidance thing is a really big problem.

Kat (Podcast Host) (44:05)

Yeah, I love that. I totally agree with you guys. His Instagram is your diagnonsense. Fantastic posts every single day. Congratulations on the amazing work you do. Thank you for all your expert insight. I appreciate it so much. And I guess all the links for people to find you and find your courses are on your insta, right, Todd?

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (44:25)

Yeah.

Kat (Podcast Host) (44:26)

Thank you. I appreciate you so much, guys. Happy New Year. It's such a pleasure being here with you, you again and be safe out there. And I'm going to say never give up on love.

Todd (Therapist/Expert Guest) (44:36)

Yes.

Kat (Podcast Host) (44:37)

Thank you. Thank you, Todd. It was such an honor having you be safe out there. I'll see you guys very soon.