PODCAST SUMMARY

Keeping It Real: Conversations with Jillian Michaels

Episode: CIA Insider Mike Baker Exposes Epstein, Trump’s Venezuela Strikes & The Real Middle East Play
Date: November 23, 2025
Host: Jillian Michaels
Guest: Mike Baker, Former CIA Covert Ops Officer

EPISODE OVERVIEW

In this in-depth episode, Jillian Michaels sits down with former CIA covert ops officer and intelligence expert Mike Baker to dissect the most controversial stories shaking the headlines. They tackle Jeffrey Epstein’s possible intelligence ties, the real motives behind U.S. strikes in Venezuela, deep-rooted complexities in the Middle East, and explore the broader, often misunderstood machinery of global power plays. Throughout, Baker brings a nuanced, sometimes cynical intelligence perspective, emphasizing both operational subtleties and the layered nature of geopolitical decisions.

KEY DISCUSSION POINTS AND TIMESTAMPS

1. The Epstein Question: Asset or Scammer?

Timestamps: [00:52]-[32:34]

Epstein's Alleged Intelligence Ties: Facts vs. Myths

• Jillian starts with rapid-fire rumors and conventional wisdom about Epstein, asking Baker to separate fact from speculative fiction ([02:52]).
• Baker on intelligence terminology: "There's this range here... recruited asset, cooperative contact, unwitting provider. So when somebody says 'confirmed ties,' you gotta define what does that mean... There's more complexity to it than just black and white." [03:00]
• Discusses Robert Maxwell (Ghislaine's father), his likely but undefined Mossad links, and the spectrum of intelligence relationships ([02:53]-[05:00]).
• No confirmed evidence from any government or declassified document that Epstein worked for US or foreign intelligence ([06:18]).

Epstein's Methods: Social Climber or Kompromat Collector?

• Baker: "He was a collector of people... there are people who love to be close to people of importance, it makes them feel important. Was it for leverage or ego? We don't have that evidence yet." [06:55]
• Points out Epstein's Rolodex (William Burns, Ehud Barak, Lawrence Summers) and discusses how fraudsters trade on vouching and access ([09:38]).
• "A lot of people were dealing with Epstein after he was already known to be, you know, a sex offense, right? ... that didn’t happen because other powerful people were vouching for him." [11:27]

The 2008 Plea Deal and Conspiracy Theories

• Jillian probes the widely rumored story that Epstein was "protected" during his prosecution. Baker notes the lack of evidence but agrees Epstein’s leverage and network likely helped ([14:58]).
• "He did almost no time... I would assume that part of what Epstein was doing, you know, he was looking at every opportunity to gain leverage on all these various individuals." [16:36]

Was Epstein Intelligence?

• Baker reasons that, if Epstein were an intelligence asset, "he’d have been a target of interest for absolute sure," but actual agency tradecraft would have been far less sloppy ([25:23]).
• "Honey pots, honey traps are a thing, sure. Since someone invented espionage... but if what he was doing was setting up an entire trafficking ring at the behest of an intel service, that would be sloppy tradecraft." [25:33]

Epstein’s Death and Political Football

• Discussion on why, if Epstein was intelligence, the cover-up was so botched: "Intel services are given a lot more credit than they should be—sometimes they’re just human-run organizations with limitations." [29:31]
• Both agree that the case’s fate is now almost entirely political, exploited by both parties—not about the victims ([30:35]):
  • "It’s the city where investigations go to die... There typically aren’t consequences for bad behavior when it comes to Washington." [31:23]

2. Trump’s Venezuela Strikes: Counter-Narcotics, Regime Change, or Oil?

Timestamps: [32:34]-[51:28]

The Roots of Venezuelan Crisis

• Baker traces crisis back to Hugo Chávez, not just Maduro ([33:47]).
• On socialism: "God bless the young people—some seem to think we can come up with a form of socialism or communism that’s going to work for once in history." [33:57]

The Real Motive for US Military Action

• "You don’t send a carrier group out there if it’s just about counter-narcotics... it’s designed to create pressure internally within the Maduro regime.” [35:07]
• Pressure strategy: force Maduro or his inner circle to leave voluntarily, not direct regime change through invasion ([35:07]-[36:42]).

Layered Geopolitical Interests

• "You could argue the Venezuelan people would be better off with a different government. But that doesn’t mean we should militarily get involved in regime change... these things never typically work out the way you imagine." [39:20]
• Oil, Russia, China, and narcotics—the issue is complex and never just about one factor ([49:28]).
• On the US’s nuanced approach compared to Mexico: "We can kind of get away with this crap related to Venezuela... and not suffer the same blowback as we would from Mexico." [36:42]

Transparency and the Risk of Error

• "The White House is hurting themselves by not being more transparent about how they've chosen these targets and who they are." [47:51]
• “Is the targeting information solid? Hopefully, yes, but you never know." [46:24]

3. The Middle East: Ceasefire, Saudi, Qatar, Iran

Timestamps: [51:28]-[77:37]

Saudi Arabia, Khashoggi, and Realpolitik

• Baker contextualizes Jamal Khashoggi’s murder: "You deal with the situation you've got, out of your own nation's self-interest. Is it in our interest to burn down the relationship with Saudi Arabia over it? No." [53:29]
• Trump’s blunt messaging: “Yeah, hey, a lot of people didn’t like him. And things happen.” [54:39]
• On messaging: “Supporters love Trump because he talks like the guy tailgating with you at the football game.” [55:43]

Qatar, Saudi, and Iran: Frenemies and Regional Strategy

• The parties act in their own self-interest: "There’s nobody out there who plays both sides of the fence better than the Qataris… Sometimes their interests align with ours, sometimes they do things that are not in our interest." [57:16],[58:20]
• Qatar as host for both the US base and for Hamas leadership, sometimes at the tacit request of the US/Israel ([58:43]).
• On Gaza ceasefire plans: "Everybody’s going huzzah! UN Security Council approved the peace plan. Oh, yay. Well, it doesn’t mean crap… if Hamas still exists." [61:03]

What Do Gulf States Really Want?

• "They just want the problem to go away." [64:36]
• "The Qataris are probably the most pragmatic people out there... acting in their own best interests." [65:25]

Iran: Historical Context and Future

• Jillian asks: did US/Brit intelligence create today’s Iran problem? Baker: “Yeah, we certainly complicate matters... But to pretend the US is uniquely self-interested is bullshit.” [68:24],[69:09]
• Global power is a moral gray zone: "You can call balls and strikes and say, when we behave badly, fine, but don’t pretend the rest of the world’s just standing around hoping we could hold hands.” [69:09]
• On fixing Iran: “The only answer for Iran is change from within... I’ve never been a proponent of regime change... Hope for mass protest and internal pressure for change.” [75:09]
• Complexity of outcomes: “Why is it always the most extreme that fills the vacuum? The pendulum swings wildly.” [77:37]

4. Misinformation, Cynicism, and What Can Individuals Do?

Timestamps: [81:37]-[94:37]

Washington Dysfunction & Why Good People Don’t Run

• Term limits, re-election incentives, and why “good guys” rarely get into office ([82:49]).
• “You get some people who are there for the right reasons, but it’s not everybody, and that’s the way it works.” [84:30]

Combating Misinformation and Civic Responsibility

• Baker’s advice: Individually, start with skepticism and vigilance against misinformation:
  • "You're really the only meaningful line of defense. The individual is." [85:44]
  • “Check if something is accurate or credible before spreading it. That would be a really good step.” [86:36]
• The loss of civility: "We don't really see a lot of civility in conversation or discussion anymore." [87:21]
• Role modeling the center: “The majority of us are in the center, we’re just not going bananas in the comments.” [90:36]

The Lure and Danger of Outrage Media

• Baker: "If I wanted to boost the numbers for our podcast, I'd just start tossing red meat out... but I don't want to come home at night and think, wow, I made the world a horrible place today." [91:18]

NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• On intelligence ties:

  "There's more complexity to it than just black and white."
  — Mike Baker ([03:00])

• On Epstein’s influence:

  "He was a collector of people... if I'm an intel service, Epstein's going to be the sort of guy I'm going to look at.”
  — Mike Baker ([06:55])

• On Washington investigations:

  "It’s the city where investigations go to die."
  — Mike Baker ([31:23])

• On US involvement in Venezuela:

  "You don’t send a carrier group for counter-narcotics. You send that to send a message."
  — Mike Baker ([35:07])

• On political realities:

  “You deal with the situation you’ve got, out of your own nation’s self-interest.”
  — Mike Baker ([53:29])

• On Qatar:

  "Nobody plays both sides of the fence better than the Qataris."
  — Mike Baker ([57:16])

• On the Middle East peace process:

  "Everybody is going, huzzah, look at that, we've got a UN Security Council approved peace plan. Oh, yay. Well, it doesn't mean crap."
  — Mike Baker ([61:03])

• On self-interest globally:

  "To pretend the US is uniquely self-interested is bullshit."
  — Mike Baker ([69:09])

• On social media and misinformation:

  “You’re really the only meaningful line of defense.”
  — Mike Baker ([85:44])

EPISODE STRUCTURE & FLOW

• Epstein’s Alleged Spycraft and Social Networking
• US Actions in Venezuela: Moral Good, Power Play, or Resource Grab?
• Power Balances and Messy Realities in the Middle East
• Public Policy, Misinformation, and the Frustrations of Democratic Dysfunction
• Human Agency: What Listeners Can Do in a Chaotic World

ACTIONABLE INSIGHTS

• Be skeptical of binary, black-and-white narratives—especially from social media.
• Don’t buy into grand conspiracy stories without evidence; fine details and motivations often remain opaque, and the truth is usually both messier and less cinematic.
• National interests always drive state behavior, and most global actors act primarily out of self-interest—sometimes overlapping with noble or ignoble goals.
• As an individual, focus on personal responsibility: verify information, practice civility, and avoid spreading outrage or extremism.

For more of Mike Baker’s analysis:
Find him on all platforms with “The President’s Daily Brief,” focusing on international and national security stories—“telling you what’s happening, not how to think about it.” [93:50]