← Keeping It Real: Conversations with Jillian Michaels
Keeping It Real: Conversations with Jillian Michaels
Civilization in Freefall: What Illegal Immigration, DEI, and Ivy Indoctrination Have in Common
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- [00:00]
Jillian Michaels
I know you've got a million gazillion photos sitting on your phone right now. Don't just leave them there. Get them printed for free and delivered straight to your door. With free Prints, they have more than a million five star reviews. Free print is the world's favorite way to get premium quality photo prints. No subscriptions, no commitments, just a thousand free prints a year. So go to freeprints.com or download the Freeprints app directly from Google Play or or the App Store. This episode is brought to you by Active Skin Repair. Because guys, let's be honest. We've all had skin issues from cuts and scrapes to rashes, burns and breakouts. I mean, I've used this stuff on everything from sunburns to post shaving irritation, even my kids scraped knees. And what makes it different is that it's natural, it's non toxic, and it's medical grade. And the key ingredient is something called hypochlorous acid, which your body actually produces naturally to fight infection and support healing. It works with your immune system to soothe irritation, reduce inflammation and speed recovery. It's gentle for babies and it's powerful enough for athletes. Acne, eczema, diaper rash, razor burn, you name it, this does the job. Without steroids, antibiotics or chemicals. Over half a million people swear by it. And now I'm one of them. So visit activeskinrepair.com to learn more about active Skin Repair. And to get 20% off your order, just use the code. Jillian Today's guest is one of the most incisive and unflinching thinkers of our time. Victor Davis Hansen has long warned that America's greatest threats aren't just foreign. They're internal tribalism tearing at our national fabric, progressive elites detached from reality, and a globalist ideology that's eroding the very foundations of our freedom and our citizenship. He's a military historian by training and a classicist by discipline. Hanson brings a rare and necessary perspective to today's geopolitical chaos. From the grinding war between Russia and Ukraine, rising tensions with China, the tinderbox of Israel and the Middle east, he unpacks the currents reshaping the world order and why America's internal fractures leave us dangerously exposed while simultaneously highlighting the hope on the horizon. Let's get into it. Keeping it Real with Jillian Michaels. Victor, welcome to the show.
- [02:32]
Victor Davis Hanson
Thank you for having me.
- [02:33]
Jillian Michaels
Thank you so much for being here. I have so many questions for you that it took me hours to prepare for this. So the first one, this is the first question that won't is in the Dying Citizen, your book the Dying Citizen, you argue that progressive elites, tribalism and globalization are basically destroying the idea of America. So the first thing I want to get out of the way is can you define what it means to be a citizen nowadays and then subsequently what is the idea of America even mean now?
- [03:06]
Victor Davis Hanson
Yeah, that's a difficult question because the traditional boundaries between residents, people who lived here on visas and citizenship was very sharp. And there were traditionally five or six things that privilege a citizen. They could for example, leave the border on their own free volition. They didn't have to get a visa and they could go back and forth if they had a passport. They had a passport. I don't, I think now what we see of the northern, southern border, people are going back and forth all the time that are not citizens without permission. The second thing is they were eligible and only them for military service. Now illegal aliens are and non citizens. The other big, the two big things were that only citizens could vote obviously. But as you know in Cambridge Mass. And Berkeley and school board elections, illegal aliens are now voting. The other thing is they could not work, only citizens could work on campaigns. We saw with Christopher Steele, who was a British subject, Steele dossier that was not even an issue. The only thing that I can think that a citizen can do now that a resident can't is hold office. And that's under attack. And so citizenship in a country of 340 million people. We have an all time number of people who were not born in the United States. About 58 million, it's about 16%, which is enormous project to challenge for assimilation, intermarriage, integration. And you know, we're not doing that. And so we're starting to Balkanize both by the number of people we're not assimilating that are not familiar with our system. And we don't want to prejudice people who are residents. And we see what happens. I mean we, we saw what happened in Colorado the other day. Yes, with a resident who was here illegally. And the other, the other thing I think is, is pretty important about the difference between citizenship and residence is it's, it's a kind of a late concept in history. Most people before the 5th century BC were subjects or serfs, subjects of a monarchy. This idea that you are empowered as a citizen and that you can determine your own fate through constitutional government, that's a very new idea. And it's, it's, it's eroding. There's. Of the 180 countries in the United so called United nations, half of them don't have true citizens. They're not in control of their destiny. And I think we're, we're eroding. That's why when the Simpson Mazzoli act of 1986 was passed, Reagan gave amnes. He kind of got shorted by the left. He said, I'll give amnesty for 3 million people, but you've got to control the border. And they didn't do that. And he, yet when he offered the amnesty, only 30% took it. Everybody was saying, well, we made it too difficult. But he made it very easy. And when they started polling people who were here illegally, why didn't you want to become citizen? They said, what was the purpose? You get everything you want anyway because you're eligible for welfare, federal, local, state assistance, anything there was even in state residency here in California. If you're an illegal alien and you live as a resident illegally in California and you can show that you paid sales or any type of tax, you're going to get in state tuition where a citizen from Nevada or Montana will not be able to, they'll pay almost three times more than an illegal alien in California.
- [07:05]
Jillian Michaels
What's strange for me personally is that growing up here as a Gen Xer here, America here, not necessarily California here, although I am a native Californian, I was always so proud of the fact that we were a melting pot. I appreciated that legal immigration could stimulate the economy. Would, you know, you've got grinders and you get some of the best from all over the world, be they doctors, lawyers, you know, when you look at Fortune 500 companies, so many of them are started by or run by immigrants or the children of immigrants. But now it's become corrosive to our American values. And I, I'm not understanding how we got here. What am I missing?
- [07:58]
Victor Davis Hanson
Immigration always had worked with certain qualifications. It was going to be legal. And the people who came here for the most part were cut off from their home country. It was very hard to get back to Sicily, it was very hard to get back to Eastern Europe. And the host was very confident in its powers of integration. So they had civic education in schools, Americanism, et cetera. But Ted Kennedy and The Democrats in 1965 rewrote under the LBGA Great Society the immigration laws. And they took away the meritocratic qualifications that fast track people. So if you had English fluency, if you had a bachelor's degree or a high school diploma, if you had some skill sets, you were given pretty much an open field on legal immigration. They, they stopped that and privileged proximity to the border, but most importantly familial associations. And the reason was to be frank. And they said that at the time. They're always accusing the right of saying, well, you're white supremacist or you're afraid of demography. But they were the ones that came up with these titles of books like Demography is Destiny or the New Democratic Majority. So the. They did not have confidence in their agenda that would appeal to the present demography. So in the last 50 years, they have tried to bring in as many people from very poor areas, especially Latin America and more recently anywhere in the world. And that for them is a win win situation. They get a constituency that needs massive government help to achieve parity. That means higher taxes, larger government. They get a. They feel that they will not be. They have deep skepticism about America anyway. So they bring people in that feel that they won't assimilate. And we're seeing that especially from the Middle East. And for them it's a new. It's a new demography. That the only irony that I can see is that. And I live in an area that's 95% Hispanic in the Central Valley where I'm today. And I don't think in 2016 I met a Mexican American friend of any of my friends that was over 30 that voted for Donald Trump. In 2024, I did not meet a single one who didn't. In other words, there was a radical. And that was borne out by data about 48% of all Hispanics voted for Trump and about 56% of Hispanic males. And that will really shock the Democratic Party. And it has, because they're not in favor to the same degree they were of open borders just six months ago because they feel that by putting all of these illegal immigrants in communities like ours. And there were four nocturnal flights to Fresno International Airport every night from deep in Mexico, 800 to 900 people were coming in a night on those refugee apps you could. Without passport control. And then they were, you know where I'm looking out the window, I'd say that there's three farmhouses with at least 30 people living there or 20 people. And that's what got these Hispanic communities very upset all of a sudden. There are advanced placement courses. They had to have English as second language again. Or you talk to somebody and they'll say, a gang member from Mexico told my son who's Mexican American, if he didn't speak Spanish, he was a gringo. And he bullied him. Or half the accidents in Fresno county are believed to be. The driver leaves the scene of the accident. This is something that the elite left never talks about. Where I work at Stanford University, even at the Hoover Institution, which is supposed to be an enclave of conservative thought. They're pretty much open borders, all of them. But they don't live. They don't ever see the direct consequences of their ideology and how it affects poor people and middle class people.
- [12:22]
Jillian Michaels
Do they care? I don't think they care.
- [12:25]
Victor Davis Hanson
I don't think they care. I think they feel that we're all lab rats and they're going to run all of these experiments on us and they're going to be safe by their zip code or their money or their influence from the consequences of it booming, boomeranging back on. We saw that with Martha's Vineyard when they bust some, they all gave a virtue signaling speech about how happy they were. And then they made those care packages and they had them out in 48 hours.
- [12:54]
Jillian Michaels
Can we, can we talk about the elites for a minute? In particular of the three things you listen to, progressive elites, tribalism, globalization. I wanna really dig in on this one because you've said, and I wanna get this quote right, but something to the effect of like, woke is a Frankensteinian monster that turns on its creator. And for me, having grown up in California, everybody knows I have a bone to pick with Gavin Newsom. I feel he's destroyed my home state. And I echo your warning and concern that California is what becomes of the rest of the country if we don't stop this here, here, now from spreading. And yet he sits there and he preaches DEI and inclusion while being a white guy, you know, 50s, I think, maybe a little bit older, running the state, living in a $9 million house. So I'm like, wait, wait, wait, hold on. So it's, it's, you know, all of this Di stuff for everybody but you. You're still in power, you're still loaded, you still live in a $9 million house. And you've talked about how, like Boxer and Feinstein and the previous governor, Jerry Brown and Newsom have all managed to evade what they have created, this Frankensteinian monster. Why have they created it? How are they avoiding it, and for how much longer?
- [14:19]
Victor Davis Hanson
Well, the DEI was a creation of very wealthy, to be frank, white people, right? And they felt very bad as the demography started to change and we went from a 90, 10% black white binary through immigration to about 70, 30. They felt that they, they felt I should say felt they didn't really believe, but they felt bad about it because they looked at disparities in income based on race. So they said, we're going to violate the Constitution and allow preference based on race. Race. However, we're going to be the architects of it and we are the favored people. And the implicit philosophy was this can't affect us because if it affected us, it would impair our ability to do well. And how that translated in the real world was, I have a child at Bellarmine or our Sacred Heart or and that white male deserves to get into Stanford or USC or UCLA or Harvard, and I'll use all my network money, zip code to get him there. However, he will pay penance by the time he gets to the university. He'll be an advocate for all of these causes of the downtrodden, at least as a rite of passage. So, Gavin News, I'll give you an example. Stanford, after George Floyd decided they would go to reparations admissions. So it wouldn't. They used to be 60 white. And then they decided, no, we're going to throw out the SAT and we're not going to rate the high school GPA by the caliber of that particular high school. And then they let in. So last year, in the last three years, they let in 20% white of a demographic that was 67%. They even bragged that they rejected 70% of those who chose to take the optional SAT and got a perfect score. And so there was only 9% white males. And so when you start to look at who gets in the 200 white males at Stanford every year, well, there's not enough room. There's athletes, there's the legacy that means their parents give 5 or 6 million dollars. There's Silicon Valley's got 9 trillion of market capitalization right next door that takes care of those grandees. And then there's the administrators, the vice president, the provost, the deans. And there's really no avenue for a kid from Bakersfield who's brilliant to get into these places. And then when you get them in, what do you do? Because you're telling these students. And this was what was really Orwellian, they said all these years, they've said if you get a BA from Harvard or Yale or Stanford, all the employers will want to have you because the prestige is based on the fact that it's so hard to get in. You have to be so well trained, you have to be so analytical. And these courses nobody else can do but you guys. And so when you Go out in the job market, boy, you can speak well, you can write better, you have a better ability to calculate, do sophisticated math, you're worldly. So that was what they sold everybody. And then all of a sudden they destroyed that. So what do you do when you destroyed it? Well, the first thing they did, they either have to do three things. They either have to inflate the grades or 80% now at Stanford are A's, Yale's about 80%. Or you have to introduce new courses that are dumbed down, if I could use that term. Or you have to dilute the requirements. And they do all three. I talked to a professor. We can teach if you want it, at Hoover, but most of us don't want to because we've taught our whole lives elsewhere. But they all say to you, I was not going to die on the altar of standards. If I went back to my original course load and grading. And the DEI people who are ubiquitous, saw a pattern of non white kids not getting the same grades, then I was identified serially as a DI offender. Well, this was all fine and good because they were running on the fumes of their reputation. But after four years, I gave a talk to some Silicon Valley people not long ago. I thought I was going to be very offensive and bold. And I said, you know, this keeps up, I don't think all of these mega corporations are going to hire kids from Harvard and Stanford because they don't. They don't. Their curriculum is not what it was built for. And more importantly, they're going to be entitled because they never really had to do the work at the level that these universities assured everybody would make them preeminent. And this they, I'm not kidding you, the four or five people just started laughing and they said, where have you been, Victor? We have known this for the last four years. If we hire these kids, they go right to human resources and complain the first month. And we would rather have a techie from Georgia Tech, Texas A and M, Virginia Tech, any day. And I thought, wow. And I think that's what's, that's one of the reasons that for all of Trump's bluntness and crude battering of Harvard and these universities, he's going to win because the universities are kind of like a mossy, beautiful rock on a hillside. Everybody sees the ivy arches and the name Stanford, but when you turn it over and the public has never seen the underside, it's ugly. And by that I mean they are defying the 2022 Supreme Court ruling on racially Blind hiring, tenure, activities. They have racially separate graduations. They call them auxiliary. They have racially segregated dorms. They call them theme houses. They are not. They have not fully reported money from China or gutter 60 million. They have endemic systematic anti. Semitism. They won't. Harvard had two students that roughed up a Jewish student. And they faced criminal charges. They plea bargained down to, I think it was 90 days of public service to get out of having it on their record. You thought Harvard would then punish them? They rewarded them. One of them was given a $65,000 honorarium by the law school. The other was made a grand marshal of the Divinity school. So basically, Harvard says, if you go out and beat up a Jew, we're going to give you an award. And yet I could go on, but, you know, 55%. So if you get a National Institutes of Health or Department of Energy grant from a university, most foundations will require only a 15% surcharge for your home facility to allow you to have a desk. Or they were charging the government 50, 50 to 55%. And then we have 300,000 students from China and another 200 from the Middle East. They charge them 110%. No discount. No fellow. They're big money winners. And we don't vet them. So we have. They don't want to talk about. I don't want to give you a precise percentage, but a sizable percentage of the Chinese students at the Kennedy School of Government are the children of communist provincial officials and Communist China. And most of the kids here from the Middle east that we see in all these demonstrations are from the affluent elite with golf money, scholarships, and somehow. And they don't want to talk about any of this. And what Trump is doing in a very, like a battering ram. The more that he needles them, the more this comes out.
- [22:25]
Jillian Michaels
Yes.
- [22:26]
Victor Davis Hanson
And, and they, they, they. And they're so arrogant and so insular and they don't understand the public. The Gallup poll six years ago said 60% had high confidence and elite higher education. Today it's 30%. They don't understand that they don't have the public anymore. People don't like them. And it's too bad because they, at least in the science and math, they're very critical to our competitiveness. But they're destroying, they're destroying themselves. And the funny thing is they could all cut a deal with Trump and say to their radical faculty and their radical students, hey, I'm sorry, but we, we can't have segregated dorms. We can't have racial biases in hiring or admission. I'm sorry, we're going to get rid of the theme houses. I'm sorry that anybody who puts one finger on another person, especially Jews, because they're the most at risk, is going to be expelled. They could blame it on Trump. They can just say, I didn't want to do this, but we're going to lose billions of dollars in federal funds. And so it's. We're kind of in a counter revolution is what I'm saying.
- [23:39]
Jillian Michaels
That Trump said that his second term is a counter revolution. And that was one of my questions. What do you mean by that?
- [23:46]
Victor Davis Hanson
Well, the first term he himself said it. He came in here without any experience and nobody in the Republican Party wanted to work with him. He was a pariah. So he picked people like a Jim Mattis, whom I know I like, and HR McMaster, whom I know and I like, and people like John Bolton, whom I've met but maybe not particularly fond of. Those people weren't on his agenda. They were part of the post war bipartisan establishment and Rex Tillerson's. And then you had people within the administration like Anonymous or Alexander Vindman there were trying to stop him. This time around, I think there's three or four elements that have changed him. He's a lame duck from day one. He doesn't ever have to go up for re election. Number two, they raided his house, they tried to take him off the state ballot, they tried to shoot him twice. He was the object of 93 indictments and he survived all of that. I think in his mind, what more can they do to me? I don't care anymore. And then third, if you look at the people he's appointing, they all, many of them have, they're very loyal, but they have. I guess what I'm saying is if he thought, I need somebody I can trust for the FBI, I better appoint a good person that has been the object of an FBI attack, like cash. I need somebody like Tulsi, who was put on a nor no terrace. I need somebody like Pete Heth that the military hated because he wrote a book about them. I need somebody like RFK because he was a pariah. I need, say, money, like Jay Bhattacharya who was censored by the faculty at Stanford because he knows that they, like him, have a deep distrust of the administrative state. But what I'm getting at just to finish is the first term he addressed the symptoms. Oh, I'm going to close the border. I'm going to produce more energy. We're not going to have forever wars this time. He's said, what caused all that progressive. What caused biological males slamming a volleyball down a girl's throat when that used to be a feminist issue? What caused all these DAs in LA and San Francisco letting out criminals to prey on the vulnerable? And he came up with the idea it was the progressive project. So how do I deal with not the symptoms like last time, but the root causes? And he came up with, I've got to address the universities. They're getting all this federal funds. We have no obligation to give it. Barack Obama, when he was. He's actually taking a cue from Barack Obama. Barack Obama wrote a letter to every higher educational place and he said, if you don't change the way you look at sexual harassment, it's no longer beyond a reasonable doubt. It's just a majority of the evidence. In other words, they pretty much are, we're going to cut off your money. So he got that. He said, I can do the same thing. I'm going to address why are we giving NPR this money? Why are we giving PBS this money? I'm going to go, I'm not going to be neutral. I'm going to sue these media people. And overseas, all these guys on Wall street, they're making a fortune, but they keep talking about libertarian economics and free trade, but it's not fair. And we've wiped out these whole communities of working people. It's like the Wall Street Journal. Everything they wrote about him was untrue. In March, they said, we're going to be in a recession, prices are going to go up. He's destroying trade. GDP is going to go down, income is going to go down. And you see the April report. He halved the trade deficit from 160 billion to 80. We have the lowest inflation in four years. Personal income is up, personal savings is up, energy costs are down. And it's because he's trying to think of ways to help the middle rather than just the Republican standard orthodoxy of, you know, kind of trickle down. And so he's trying to, to address all of these things that allowed the progressives to be powerful. And one of them is, he said, you know, we were easily caricatured as a party of the golf course and wealthy. And I'm going to transform the party into a national workers party. And I'm going to tell Hispanic, a Mexican American guy and Fresno, you have more in common with your white truck driver than the white truck driver does with a Stanford professor. Or you do with a Hispanic anchor woman. And that's what he did. And it was a revolution. And I think they still haven't seen what hit them.
- [28:48]
Jillian Michaels
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- [33:57]
Victor Davis Hanson
Yeah, I think first of all, anytime you have an adjective that's unnecessary, there's a purpose for it. So we had racism and people could identify it pretty easily. Then they came along as racism started to disappear and people were basically not as interested in people's superficial appearances. They came up with an adjective, micro or systemic racism. And that meant that only a particular caliber or professional racial expert could find the racism. It was like, you can't see error, but we know there's oxygen in it. Well, they were saying, you can't see racism because it's systemic. You can't see aggression anymore. There's no evidence of it because it's Microsoft. It's microaggression. You can't really censor because it's a trigger warning and it just warns you. So they created a professional class of these very entitled minority people to tell the country, well, you think you've made progress, but you really do need people like us to tell you that you didn't. And so, Professor KENDI I need $50 million for my anti racist. So to be an anti racist, you to be a racist is what he basically said. That's one thing. The second thing they did was, and this was really brilliant, under Barack Obama, there was this binary of black, white, with a historic slavery, racism, Jim Crow, and the country since 1950s and 60s, but especially after the Civil Rights Acts of 64 was making progress. So Obama came in and he said, basically, I'm going to use a new word, diversity, and we're going to go beyond the binary. So whereas Hispanics, the problem with Hispanics they had is 50% of Hispanics on the census identify as white. And they were upset about that. So Obama came in and said, we're going to have diversity. They had a little problem with Asians because they didn't want to let Asians in universities at the numbers that they had deserved merocratically. But I could see all of a sudden people that I knew that were say, very wealthy from India or from the Middle east, they were saying they were diverse. And I kept saying, why are you diverse? I'm not white. So Obama really recalibrated and he said, you know, it's not just 12% that are oppressed. This new Marxist binary of victim, victimizer, oppress, oppressor is really 30%, 32. It's a huge number. It's kind of like Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition that never caught on. So he's basically saying for purposes of appointments, professorships, if you're from India now, that counts as a diverse pick. If you're from Egypt, it's a diverse pick. And when you add that you've cut the country in two between oppressors and press. One of the big things about di, as you know, they said that a victimize person or an oppressed person can themselves not be a victimizer or oppressor. So it kind of took away the deterrent and behavior. And you start seeing now that the country's paralyzed when two Israeli Staffords are brutally murdered, their bodies were riddled after they were dead with successive bullets, and the person became a folk hero in part because he was Hispanic. And now we had one in Colorado, an Egyptian illegal immigrant. And he is now there's already people saying free. He said the exact same words, free Palestine. But he isn't. He is oppressed. And that's when you see these very wealthy, entitled kids on campus. If they're from the Middle east, if they're from India, if they're Hispanic, they are oppressed. And therefore they can't be anti Semitic.
- [38:03]
Jillian Michaels
I want to sidebar for a second. I did want to ask you this, but I was planning on asking later, but because you, you bring up the anti Semitic piece. As a world class historian, what do you think when you see individuals like Daryl Cooper suggesting maybe that Hitler wasn't quite as bad as we thought, or Winston Churchill did play a larger role in exacerbating the devastation of World War II, honestly, just you would know. You have the knowledge. Does this outrage you? Do you think this is inconsequential?
- [38:42]
Victor Davis Hanson
I wrote a 20. Barry Weiss asked me the day that he did the interview if I could write 2,500 words. And I think it was six hours. I was on a plane. I wrote the essay, I think, refuting him. I just did a. With my colleagues Andrew Roberts and Neil Ferguson. We three of us did an interview with Peter Robinson about Darrell Cooper. And you know, Daryl Cooper's not. He wrote one book and it was on the Internet. I think it was on Twitter. So he's a pop aficionado, but he hasn't looked at the source material. That would explain why Churchill might have said something that he. I'll give you one example.
- [39:25]
Jillian Michaels
Yeah.
- [39:26]
Victor Davis Hanson
Okay. So he said that Churchill was a terrorist because in 1940 he bombed the Black Forest, which was. And he wanted to start a fire. Well, what he didn't say was that there was evidence that the logistical key to invading France, which was a preemptive attack by Nazi Germany and the Low Countries, some of their staging areas were in the Black Forests where they had, you know, all sorts of supplies. And more importantly, he said they. It was a terrorist campaign and they were targeting. They didn't have Napalm. They had a primitive form of magnesium. And the point Churchill was making is, how do we stop these people? They started this war. They've got two and a half million people that have burst through Belgium. And somebody said, well, maybe we can bomb these areas and light up their, their munitions and their fuels. And so that becomes, in Daryl Cooper's mind, well, he, he ordered a terrorist. What I'm getting at is that they apply a standard that if you're on the American allied democratic side, you have to be 100% perfect to be good. And if you're not, if you can find, if you can pick and choose little things because we're human, then, then they can magnify that and say you're bad. But what they don't, they never miss the big picture was that When World War II started, the US army was the 17th sized army in the world in 1939, behind Portugal. And Britain had been worn out by World War I and France was infected with socialism and Germany was rearming. And the more they said to Hitler, please do not hold a plebiscite in the Saarland, please do not violate the Rhineland demilitarization of the Versailles, please don't have the Anschluss with Austria, please don't annex the Sudetenland, the more he would lie to them. And he said, you know what he said, what was very funny is he said the Munich Agreement, he started saying that was unfair. And Chamberlain went over to Munich and he basically said, you can have, all of you can take the Czechs, you can have Czechoslovakia, you can make it your domain, you can have the Skoda arms work, you can do all of that, but we've given you so much. Please don't invade Poland. And Hitler said, nope, I won't do it. But what he didn't say is when Poland, when Shamba went back, we have records where Hitler turned to his advisors. And he said, I saw that little stupid man with the umbrella and I wanted to jump on top of him. And what he was saying was, that stupid Chamberlain, I don't like him, I don't respect him. He's so weak. He gave me everything I wanted and I wanted a war. And now I have to wait a whole year. His generals were saying, this is good, mein Fuhrer, because we will mobilize, we'll get another year to attack Poland. But. And so almost everything that he said, and I wrote a long refutation was inaccurate. And if it was not, the other thing to remember is very quickly when Hitler, when Chamberlain he doesn't understand that Hitler, when he attacked Poland, Winston Churchill was the first Lord of the Admiralty. First he was in charge of the navy. Basically, he wasn't even prime minister until May 10th of 1940. So from September 1st all the way to May 10th of the next year, Chamberlain was prime minister. So how could he be culpable for starting the war? Because he wasn't even the prime minister. And more importantly, when he was the prime minister, they were so desperate, they said, winston, everything that Chamberlain did failed. And now they've invaded and you're going to be the prime minister. And he basically said, okay. And then Darryl Cooper said, well, he would treat Chamberlain very bad. Chamberlain wanted peace. No, he said to Chamberlain, everybody is demonizing you. I disagreed with you. You were naive, but I'm going to bring you into my war cabinet. And he told people, don't attack him because he did his best. He was just naive. So he was really magnanimous. But by, let's say, August of 1940, what was the world like? And Daryl Cooper, he doesn't mention there was everything in Europe, every capital today in Europe, all of the EU was either under German occupation, actively a part of the Axis, or pro Axis, neutral. So Madrid, Lisbon, Amsterdam, Athens, all of them were under German control. And who was there? Well, the Soviet Union with 400 divisions was on Hitler's side under the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact. So they were supplying the oil for the gasoline refineries of Germany to bomb Britain, and with the United States, with isolationists, we didn't get in until December 10th and 11th of 1941. We would have never got in to help Britain had Japan not bombed us. And even when they did bomb us, we probably wouldn't have done much to help Britain, except Hitler made a fatal blunder in declaring war on us. And then that got us in the European theater. So what I'm getting at is basically the Soviet Union empowered Hitler, and our isolationists empowered Hitler. And the only person from September 1st until the invasion of the Soviet Union by Russia and six months later was Little Britain. And then later, Winston Churchill, he was the only person. And everybody said to him, you can't win. We've got to negotiate. You've got to deal with. And he said, finally, you know, if you guys, Halifax, if you want to go talk to him, I'm not going to stop you. But you're never going to get anywhere because these people are Nazi fascists and they want to destroy the British Empire. And finally they came back and said, well, you're right, they, they do. And then he, he begged the United States. And Roosevelt was in a tough position to. We were coming out of the Depression and we didn't want to fight. So how they took this one individual who from May 10 of 1940 till the end of 41, saved the, the whole Allied concept and made him into a demon is just, it's just impossible. The worst thing he did, just to finish is he said that when they went into The Ukraine, the 2 million Ukrainians that were starved, that was Germany. When they invaded Russia on June 22nd of 1941, he said, well, they just didn't have the propensity to take care of prisoners. So it was just kind of accidental. They killed all these Jews at Babi Yar, and that was kind of an isolated insulin, and they didn't have the resources. But what he didn't really tell his audience was they had it all planned. It was called the hunger plan. And they had actually looked at what the food production of Ukraine was, how much they could take away from it, both to feed Germans and not cut back on their caloric intake during the war, but more importantly, to kill millions of Ukrainians by starving them. And Bobby Yar wasn't just 1,30,000. That thing kept that ravine where they killed Jews after Jews. It went on and on and on for months. Almost over a year, 100,000 Jews were systematically killed day after day there. I guess the question is, why would you write all that?
- [47:38]
Jillian Michaels
But I also see that is the question. I'll let you answer it. But my follow up question is because I'm seeing terrifying parallels with regard to people like Putin. Oh, he's not that bad. And I would argue, based on some of what I understand regarding Ukraine, there were off ramps. We didn't take them. We did play a role in trying to add Ukraine to NATO. I seem to understand that piece of it, but I can tell very clearly Putin is a monster. But it's like you've got Clinton saying, well, I could always trust him. And Bush was like, I saw a soul behind those eyes. And Trump's like, I had a great relationship with him until what now, when he's gone crazy. So I guess the question is, why would you write that? And then what parallels do you see today with Putin or Xi Jinping?
- [48:28]
Victor Davis Hanson
Well, why would you write that? And my view is because I listened to a lot of what he said. I read the transcript. But that war, World War II, has been transmogrified by this one element of the right into Proof, so to speak, that we were sucked into World War II. And therefore we ended up not keeping out of it and letting the awful Nazis fight the awful Communists. Because the Jewish question, to use Hitler's term, the American Jews lobbied, lobbied, lobbied to get us in. This forgets, of course, that they may have lobbied, but they weren't very good lobbyists because when they came to the United States, we put them back on ships to Auschwitz and didn't let them in. And more importantly, we didn't get in, as I said, Until September, from September 1st of 39 to 4041, Britain was the only country, by the way, that fought for six years, from the first day of the war to the last day of war. And yet that was the country he demonized. So I think if I read. I'm not suggesting that Darrell Cooper was explicit, but from the people that are in that school, they feel Jews magnified the Holocaust and the death. And that was to gain empathy, to draw us in, to stop Hitler. While Hitler was bad, he at least was pro Western. And Jews were Marxists and Communists, and they were the ones that got us into World War II and Allied U.S. with the Russian Communists. And we should look at this as a lesson because now they're doing it again in Israel. They are trying to draw us in and bomb Iran or alienate us from 500 million Muslims in the. So this little 11 million person country. And I think that's pretty much why the history is distorted, because it fills that paradigm and it's kind of based on. Pat Buchanan wrote a book about it. Oh, in 2000 about we were Sucked In. He wrote another one on World War II and his theme was we should have either stayed out of it or. Or encourage Germany to fight Russia. As bad as Communism was, and they did kill 20 million of their own. There was no other way to stop Hitler than to send aid to Stalin. And we did. And he killed three out of four German soldiers. We couldn't have done it ourselves, at least not until 45 or later when we had superior weapons. But what I'm getting at, the revisionism of World War II is deeply tied in with the contemporary affairs and the. When you listen to Candace or you listen to. I used to. I know Tucker very well. I'm not sure that he's in that same group, but I'm not sure because I haven't talked to him in a couple years. But when you look at Kenya west or Candace Owens or Darrell Cooper and these people, anytime they cite history, there's usually Some reference to Jews or to Israel drawing us in and getting us. And so if you say to them, okay, do you know any ally that has destroyed Hamas, who hated us and tries to kill us, has hurt the Houthis, has basically did the impossible of defanging Hezbollah and destroyed the air defenses of Iran. So if you want take them out, you could. Is that our enemy, that little, tiny Israel did all of that on its own? They don't. They don't have an answer to any of that. So that's something that the Republican Party and the conservative movement and the MAGA is going. They have a fissure in the MAGA movement, right? And so far, it's a small group, and they're kind of neo isolationists. And they said, you know, Iraq. They took an idea that had some. As you pointed out with Putin, there was some logic that, you know, well, we Biden appeased Putin or Putin, Ukraine was part of Russia, or we kind of reneged on the NATO pledge that it wouldn't be part of NATO, all of that. And they take that tiny truth and they make it into the truth that it's all our fault and Putin's not that bad. He's just trying to. And that's crazy, because Putin is a dictatorial killer and he will do it again if he can. And so in all of these questions, though, there is a deep antipathy for the west, very different than the antipathy from the left. But the right feels that we became socialist communists. We have extraneous ties to Israel that we shouldn't have. We have overseas commitments. And they take a small truth and they make it the truth into the truth. I'm kind of shocked because I always thought. I don't think they're going to get anywhere with Trump because he does seem to be very pro. He's the most pro Israeli president in my lifetime.
- [54:18]
Jillian Michaels
All right, tell me the truth. How many different beauty potions do you have sitting on your bathroom counter right now? Because if it's more than just Vibrance Super C Serum, you need to listen up, because the ingredients in this one product can replace your day creams, eye creams, night creams, neck creams, wrinkle creams, and dark spot reducers. It's made in the USA with the highest quality ingredients, including vitamin C, hyaluronic acid, vitamin B5, and vitamin E. Supersee Serum delivers noticeable results. So simplify your skincare routine, get a healthier complexion, and minimize wrinkles and age spots with vibriance. And if you don't find it better than your current skincare routine, you'll get a full refund. So just go to vibrance.com Jillian to save up to 37% off and you get free shipping. That's Vibriance. V I B R I A N C E vibrance.com Jillian, when you, when you look at Iran and I've listened to you talk about this on the Daily Signal, yeah, they go, you know, I still haven't got the answer. I have asked this question numerous times. Maybe you can help me. How did we go from strangulation to negotiation? And I listen, I've heard you say we're trying to entice people with this concept of profitability to not kill people. But then at the same time, you yourself have said, I don't know that we can trust these guys. What happens if they get to 90% enrichment, Trump's out of office in four years and whammo, they've got a nuclear weapon. Like, why? And then I've also heard you talk about the power of deterrence. Like the most effective form of foreign policy is like, be good to your allies and put strong deterrence in place. You want peace? Plan for war. You want war?
- [56:06]
Victor Davis Hanson
Yeah.
- [56:06]
Jillian Michaels
Be peaceful. Are you, are you in agreement with his strategy in the Middle East?
- [56:13]
Victor Davis Hanson
Because it's like, I think it's a tactical, not a strategic. So what I mean by that is if you look at the first term, Trump said, basically, who is the person who's the biggest problem in Iran as far as extending? And they said, soleimani. And they said, you can't touch him because he's just, he killed him. And then they said, how can you get rid of isis? And they said, you're going to have to bomb them and you're going to have collateral damage, but you got to kill Baghdadi. And he did it. And then they called him up and they said, the Wagner group, these Russian Mercers, are attacking a US Insulation. But we had kind of a rule that in the Cold War you don't kill Russians and they don't kill us. He said, I want you to wipe them out. They kill over 400 of them. They just absolutely decimated them in Syria. So we know that he believes in the utility of deterrent force.
- [57:04]
Jillian Michaels
Right.
- [57:04]
Victor Davis Hanson
So what it, so what he's doing.
- [57:06]
Jillian Michaels
Now is there, is that this time though?
- [57:08]
Victor Davis Hanson
Yeah. So he's in a Republican Party that wears the Afghan 20 year debacle that ended in that nightmare in 2021 and Kabul and the Iraq thing that has Iranians So in Trump's mind, he ran on no more forever wars. And that's what rfk, Tulsi, Gabbard, all those people. So what he's trying to do, as I understand it, and I talk to people around him, is I'm going to offer these people negotiations. But, and I'm, and I'm not going to be called a warmonger, but they are going to exhaust them. So he went and said, listen, Zelensky, don't do that, and Putin do. And then Putin showed. Now all of a sudden, Putin, Trump says, well, I gave him every off road ramp, I trashed Zelensky, and the guy won't change. And now he has a much more credible argument. Oh, to help. He's not going to let Ukraine end up like Afghanistan. If he did, it would ruin his presidency. And the same thing in the Middle East. I think what he's saying to everybody, we got about four or five more months before they rebuild their defenses. And I'm not going to be the one that just preempts and then have the left and the isolationist right come back and say, well, you were negotiating, they were just about ready to have a deal. Same thing with Hamas, and you stopped it and you were just a mad bomber. So he's basically going to go to the limit. And I understand it, the enrichment is almost there and the window is closing. We have a few months, sometime in the summer or the fall, he's going to have to make a decision. And I think if he does make a decision, it'll be a much more, less controversial decision. The more he has offered to negotiate with them.
- [59:06]
Jillian Michaels
I, I get it now because I.
- [59:10]
Victor Davis Hanson
Think that's what he's going to.
- [59:11]
Jillian Michaels
That helps a ton because it's like, personally, listen, I'm totally against Forever Wars. I certainly would not want my children being thrown into these regime changes all over the world. And I know you talk about, you know, being a citizen means fighting for your country. And I've often questioned, what wars would I fight for? What wars would I, you know, allow my children to fight in? But with the way he was handling, you know, killing Soleimani in Baghdadi and strangling Adirondack, I like that better. But now that I feel like I understand what you're saying, same thing with the Houthis.
- [59:47]
Victor Davis Hanson
He's warned them and warned them and he's been really hitting them hard now. And he said to everybody, well, I warned them and I warned them.
- [59:54]
Jillian Michaels
I get it.
- [59:55]
Victor Davis Hanson
I think he's telling the world to The European, the weird thing about the Europeans are they're privately saying one thing. They're saying to him, we need oil. So don't go screw it up because you have oil and we don't. And the price will go high if you go in there. On the other hand, they can reach us. We're closer to them than you and we have no means of stopping them. So they basically said, donald Trump, solve the problem for us. But they give you mixed signals that make us almost insolvable. And then the same thing here. So I think what he's saying is he's not dumb, he's very bright. And he's saying he knows you can't trust the Iranians. He knows they'll break every deal you do.
- [60:34]
Jillian Michaels
Right.
- [60:34]
Victor Davis Hanson
He knows that they're a paper tiger now for the first time in 50 years, they have internal dissension, they have riots, they have power outages, they have no defenses. That American, an American project of a week could probably destroy all of their nuclear capability for good, weaken the regime. And I think he feels that either. And even if he didn't feel that way, there's people who will tell you it doesn't really matter because at a critical point in the next few months, the Israelis are going to do it anyway. Okay, and would you rather do it or would you rather have them do it? Because they don't have the capability that we do. And if you stir up a nest and don't finish it, I mean, you're talking about 20 or 30,000 pound bombs that they don't have, you know, a B1 or B2 bomber or B52 to do that. And it would be much more difficult and much more prolonged. It'd be much better if we got the endorsement of the Europeans and the NATO allies and did it, and we'll, and I think that's what he's doing. I don't want it to happen. But you cannot trust Iran, you cannot trust Putin, you cannot trust China.
- [61:49]
Jillian Michaels
You know, recently I was put into a debate with Ann Coulter and she's like, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care. And listen, she's very, I think she's a very intelligent woman.
- [61:57]
Victor Davis Hanson
I know, I, I know Anne pretty well and.
- [61:59]
Jillian Michaels
But you don't care. You don't care. You don't care. She's like, who cares? Let them have their Sharia law and let them have, you know, there's, everybody's got bombs, who cares? And then you're like, well, I mean, I Get Pakistan and North Korea. But why do we care about just Iran? But it, it. If there is a way to end this non militaristically or just taking out some bad guys selectively or taking out the. There's like what, four ports there that Israel could take out in a week or less. I just, but I get it. I understand he's, he's making the case.
- [62:31]
Victor Davis Hanson
I think that regime is even a little different than Pakistan because North Korea has a deterrent upon it. It's not just the United States, but they don't do anything unless China allows them to do it. And we have told China again and again, if you allow them to use a nuclear weapon, we are going to allow Japan, South Korea to get nuclear weapons and you're going to be surrounded by Austria. All those countries are on our side. You want that? So they have a somewhat. They enjoy North Korea's hysterics that bother us and they use them like a bulldog. They let them off the leash. But ultimately North Korea knows that they can't do anything unless China approves. And Trump has told them as Bush did. And the same thing with Pakistan. They are deterred by India. They have about 200 nuclear weapons and India has about 500. But they have, I don't know, 240 million people. India has 1.4 billion. So we don't worry about Pakistan because India deters it. But when we look at Iran, the only deterrent in that whole area is Israel and Israel is not, it's only 11 million people. And you've had Raf and Johnny in the past say we kind of like the idea of Israel because half the Jews in the world are in one place and it's a one bomb state. He used that term, one bomb state. And so there is no deterrent upon them to. And then when you have that messianic. We don't know if it's propaganda or reality. When they said oh, we want to destroy, we don't care if we lose half our people. We will be the Shia, we will be the Persians, we'll be the true Muslims forever. And the Sunnis and the Arabs are going to get a one connoisse because we and we alone killed the Jews. So it's a different situation than North Korea and Pakistan.
- [64:30]
Jillian Michaels
And thank you for explaining that to me because it's. Sometimes I get myself in these situations and I don't have the knowledge at the extent I'm not a historian.
- [64:42]
Victor Davis Hanson
Well, they're very complex issues and you got to remember they're colored by the idea that we were 20 years in Afghanistan, we were, I see 10 years in Iraq. We spent $4 trillion, we lost 6,000 people. So everybody has said they don't remember. It was kind of an angry response to 9, 11, etc. WMD is a different story. It was a lie. But what I'm getting at is we're kind of worn out on all of this, and that's one of the reasons that Trump was elected. The other thing a lot of MAGA people will say is, Victor, if we don't screw it up this time, and there's not a Covid, last time we were on our way to two terms and the Chinese, whether it was intentional or whatever, that destroyed the second, the last year, and he lost the election. And now they're saying somebody is going to screw this up because he's going to be very successful closing the border, the economy's going to take off, he's got $10 trillion in investment. If we just don't get into a controversial quagmire in the Middle east. And you say, well, what about the Iranian. Well, Victor, that's going to be tit for tat. It's going to be a mess. It's going to be horrible. They're going to send missiles into the Saudi oil field. It's going to be. It's not neat. And there's some reasoning about that. So that's a part of the reaction. They're just, a lot of people are realist and they're not conspiratorial. They just say on this, this time around, let's just keep the business and watch our end. But you try to tell them, well, you might not have another chance because if they get nuclear weapons, they'll start dictating to everybody in the Middle East. So it won't just be Israel, and it won't just be Israel that has a bomb. It'll be the Saudis, the Kuwaitis. They'll all get bombs because if they don't, Iran will be threatening them forever.
- [66:41]
Jillian Michaels
This, this kind of takes me to your other book, one of your other books that I wanted to talk about the end of everything. And in it, you talk about these great civilizations that were not just conquered, but literally obliterated from Constantinople, Carthage, Thebes. And you talk about these tragic errors that arguably could have been avoided. So now I wonder, in the fall of those great civilizations, what parallels are you seeing? Because you bring up like, hey, if you don't stop it now, you might be dealing with it later. This kind of Desire to, like, I just kick the can. Like, let's just, you know, let's stay in power here. Let's focus on getting all this good done. But does it cost you, like irreparably down the road? And when does China take Iran if you're not constantly putting forward the deterrence you talk about. I mean, yeah, this is, I think, sorry. I did so many questions for you for so long and I've, I've listened to you for so long and this is what you do. And that's. I guess that's why I'm unique.
- [67:46]
Victor Davis Hanson
I tried to pick really four different types of civilizations to see if there was a common theme in human nature. I wasn't sure what I was going to find when I started. But it is true that they have. No, all of these civilizations have certain things in common. The first is they don't calibrate in a rational sense how they have declined. So Constantinople is not the Constantinople of Justinian with a million people, it's down to 50,000. And the Byzantine Empire shrunk. The Aztecs are in crisis. Thebes has lost, the Battle of Chaeronea. The era of Epaminondas is over. But they still think kind of like the United States. They don't really think that we're 37 trillion in debt or we have enormous problems and we're not quite the country of World War II at this. We can have a renewal and we're.
- [68:41]
Jillian Michaels
Not the same people.
- [68:42]
Victor Davis Hanson
Second thing is, they don't look at the people who they're facing. The Sultan Mehmed II, who had the greatest library in the Islamic world, or Scipio Africanus, who was the head of the Scipionic literary circle, or Alexander the Great, who said he believed in the brotherhood of man and had Aristotle teach him. And my point is that they don't really think that in their time and space that these people outside the walls are killers and they want to destroy them. They keep thinking that we're just as strong as we were and this person is reasonable, he's rational, he's a man of letters. They wouldn't really do this. And they do really. They really do insane things. And then the other thing is, this is really important because it happened in Europe. They always think that the world would not let this happen. So the Carthaginians say, well, the Macedonians are to the rear of the Romans. Once they find out that The Romans have 80,000 people tied down here, they're going to attack. Well, they're not going to attack. They feel why should we help Carthage? Or the Thebans say, well, even if we do have to deal with Alexander, the Spartans will come. And so they send envoys to the Peloponnese, and they say, where's the army? They said, it's coming. And then the Spartans basically say to them, well, where's Alexander? And they said, he's already here. He's almost here. And they said, basically, see or wouldn't want to be. And they turn around and go home. Same thing with the poor. The most tragic example are the poor Byzantines that are on the walls of Constantinople. All they have to do is hold out for two months or three months, and this huge army of 200,000 will not be able to feed itself. The area is malarial, so they keep thinking the Italians are going to come, even though we're Orthodox. The Pope is going to send 100,000 men, and they're going to come up the Darnelles to the rear, and at the end they get about 600 Genovese and Venetians. So they could have stopped. But the point I'm making is it's kind of like, you know, people said, the world's going to stop this holocaust. It leaked out by 1943, what they were doing. They won't. They won't put up with this. They won't do this. And the thing about Israel that I don't think people realize is they understand the lesson of history and their way of thinking. We are never, ever going to rely on anybody else, never. Because every time we've done it. And by the way, they think there's a certain pattern here. Tiny little Greece dealing with Turkey, the Kurds dealing with Turkey, the Armenians dealing with Turkey. They all thought that the great powers would restrain the Cypriots dealing with Turkey. It never happened. And so I. I think that's the one thing that people don't realize about Israel. They've just decided there's not going to be a second holocaust, and they can't trust anybody, including us. So ultimately, their fate is in their own hands. And that makes them, to a lot of people, admirable people, because unlike most of our allies, they're very capable. In fact, they're really capable, and they have done enormous advice. But I think other people think they're a liability. But actually they're a. I think they're a net ally in a way that we don't have any other allies. In so many different ways.
- [72:26]
Jillian Michaels
You talk about the necessity of being good to our allies. One of the top criticisms I hear of Trump is that, you know, he's an isolationist, he's isolated all of our allies and you say he's not an isolationist, he's a Jackson. Jacksonian. Can you explain this to the viewers, what this means and what the difference is?
- [72:48]
Victor Davis Hanson
Yeah, it's a term that Walter Russell Mead, I think he didn't invent it, but he popularized it. And he tried to suggest that Trump was more like the policy of Andrew Jackson. And it was, do not try to, do not try to intervene in an optional war. Do not try to be aggressive, but build up your defenses to such a degree that it will either deter somebody or the response will be disproportionate on your part. You will have the ability to crush somebody and therefore set an example. And then more importantly, you have to realize that when you have alliances, that is no substitute for your own self interest. So how that translates in the real world, to Trump, he goes over to NATO and for years we, you know, we paid 25% of the budget of NATO. We had about 75% of the military wherewithal, and they kind of took us for granted. And Trump comes in and says, you know, you got, this was in 2017 and 18 and 19. He said, you got Putin right here. You're buying gas from him. We're footing a disproportionate amount of the bill. You say that everybody has to spend 2% of GDP and only 6 of the 32 nations are doing it. We got Canada over here is only paying 1.3 one of the lowest. You're all. And Obama called them free liars. So he said, well, what do I do to make. Nothing has worked. Obama couldn't make them pay. They're all in lotus land, la la land. So I'll tell you what I'll do. I will say the following. It's going to get people. He said, well, if you're not going to pay, maybe if somebody invades you, I'm not going to honor Article 5. I might be late coming. How's that? And then they went crazy and they spent $100 billion and rearmed just in time for the Ukraine war. And now I think there's only six or eight countries that haven't met the 2%. So when you look at this whole miasma, you could say if you were disinterested. Donald Trump did more to strengthen the, the material elements of NATO. And he's blamed for unraveling it because rhetorically he destroyed the commons laxity, naivete by shaking them up. And they Hate him. But if you talk to them privately, they will say that they hate his guts, but he made them rearm.
- [75:21]
Jillian Michaels
Right.
- [75:22]
Victor Davis Hanson
And so he's. He's looking for, you know, he's a businessman, too, and that can be good and bad. He can say, I build things and it's bad business to destroy things. Doesn't make any sense. I like to build stuff. And that kind of gets the mercantile thing. So he goes over to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and said, we'll do this or we'll have rare earths in Ukraine. It'll be a tripwire. Everybody will make money, and that's good. But on the other. And the other hand, he also. And I know this sounds funny to say it, I went back, just as a rule, to see if I was right. I went and tried to find Google, every type of humanitarian concern about Ukraine. I thought, I'll go back to 2008 and see if George W. Bush said, they're slaughtering people in Osatia or Georgia. No, he said that he broke international law. He was a danger. I went back in 2014, under Obama, when they went into Crimea and domestic. Did he talk about all the innocent people that were killed? Nope. I went into Biden when he went in and tried to take Kiev and all the heroic deaths to stop it. No. Who was the one president of the last four administrations that was unique that his first term. It was the only one that Ukraine was not invading or nobody was invaded, I should say. And then number two, he's the only one who, every time he talks about that war, he says, this is horrible. These kids are getting killed. This is terrible. It's just a waste of lives. This is stupid. What is Putin doing? And yet he's considered heartless and cruel, but he's the only one that looks at it as Stalingrad or the Psalm or Verdun. And that's the thing about him that's so enigmatic because he's considered crude and everything. But when he was campaigning, I wrote an article about that he was the only one to ever use the first person possessive pronoun when he'd go to the middle. Our steel workers, we got to help our farmers. I had never heard a Republican or a Democrat say, our farmers are steel. You remember he said that? He does today.
- [77:33]
Jillian Michaels
Yes, of course. I just didn't realize. No one ever said it before.
- [77:36]
Victor Davis Hanson
Yeah, nobody talks like that. And so he's a very enigmatic figure, and we'll see what happens. But a few.
- [77:46]
Jillian Michaels
A few more questions, if you don't mind. Yeah, tariffs. So few months ago, I was lucky enough to interview Bill O'Reilly. Then I was lucky enough to interview Sean Hannity. Deals are coming. Deals are coming. I got a good feeling. Both of them, by the way, said, you know, it could turn out to be a catastrophe. We don't know yet. I'm hopeful. I think a lot's gonna get done. Announcements are gonna come. A couple months have gone by. Now the courts are trying to take Trump out at the knees, and we gotta pay $60 billion back in tariff that we've taken. Our own country is working against our best interests. If this is our guy, whether you wanted to do it or not, whether you liked it or not, whether you like him or not, now you've taken away any ability for him to continue negotiating on our behalf, and we gotta pay $60 billion back. What is this? What is this? Just like, can we reduce this to Trump derangement syndrome? Because I would get it if beforehand you were iffy. Tariffs don't work, and blah, blah, blah. But now we're in it. Don't we then all get behind our guy and try to get to the finish line?
- [78:59]
Victor Davis Hanson
No, because they, they want him to fail. And even if we fail. But the problem after the election, I'll give you an example. On the night of the election, NPR released its last poll. This was. And they had Kamala Harris winning beyond the margin of error by four points. She lost by one. They were five and a half point. Des Moines Register said that they were going to carry Iowa by three points. That was insane. They lost it by 12. But my point is, they all thought they were going to win. They really did. I was at Stanford. I had people, everybody told me that Trump was going to lose. So my point is they were just shocked. And then they looked at the sources of power. Well, how about at least they could say in 2016, well, Trump, he didn't win the pop. He won the popular vote. He was the first president to win the popular vote since 2004, when George W. Bush barely did. Then they said, well, the electoral, he did very well in the Electoral College. Then they looked at the issues, and almost every one of those issues. The border, transgenderism, Afghanistan. He was 70, 30, 60, 40. Then they looked at the actual levers of power. He won the House, he won the Senate. The Supreme Court, for all the criticism, is more conservative than liberal. So the left looks at themselves and they say, we have no power. None. We can't do anything. So why? What are we going to do? And they said, well, you do have power because most of the judiciary is left wing. You indicted him with 93 indictments. You tied him up. You went after Mueller. Remember that? Mueller for 20 months, 40 million bucks. Oh, yeah, we rated the, the Mar A Lago raid. So they think there's 700 district judges. That's the lower of the three court system. Then there's the circuit and there's the Supreme Court. And usually from a, it takes because the Supreme Court is just bombarded with appeals. So they said out of that 700 judges or 750, there's probably 400 liberal judges. And even though they're district judges, meaning they have regional responsibility, we're going to have them issue nationwide injunctions. So this one little judge and you know, basically in a liberal, and they know they have computerized files of every judge and they rate them on their liberality, and then they pick these judges to issue a nationwide injunction, and then it has to go to the circuit court. And usually if you, the Supreme Court is doing about 70% in Trump's favor, but by the time it gets there, you've lost two months. And unfortunately, now when they did stay, these, these tariffs, he's dealing, they're dealing not just with the Chinese, but the Europeans. And the Europeans are thinking, wow, right? If we wait them out, yeah, we're going to keep our $250 billion surplus with the United States. The Europeans, if you talk to them, they'll even say things like, why should we worry about China? Yeah, they rip you guys off for a trillion dollars and they rip us off for a trillion dollar deficit. But we get some of it back with 250, 300 billion surplus with you because we do to you what China does to us. And all of a sudden Trump is saying, first of all, trade deficits matter because they give foreign exchange to a country, often a hostile one, and they destroy jobs in the United States. And I'm going to use this as a club. So I get people to invest here. And if they want to make profits, they can foreign entities, but they have to give us jobs. And now people are saying, I'm going to wait him out, because the courts, by the time, by the time this goes to court. So now what he's saying is, you may want to wait me out, but if you do this and the Supreme Court rules my way, and they will probably we're going to be, we're going to issue even higher tariffs. The whole thing is he's got to get, he's got, he's got to Get Japan, India, South Korea and China. Once he does that, the other hundred nations will fall and the Europeans will be the last because they hate his guts more than even the Chinese do.
- [83:36]
Jillian Michaels
Wow. Why? Why do they hate him more?
- [83:39]
Victor Davis Hanson
They hate him. I lived in Europe three years and I go there every summer. And they hate him on a multiplicity of levels. First of all, he represents their stereotype of the stupid, uneducated American who's unsophisticated. And then they look at his orange tan, his comb over, his loud, all that and they think he's boisterous and he's crass and he's American money grubbing, entrepreneur, billionaire, queen's accent. He doesn't look like the traditional American, Harvard, Yale, Bluebud, Anglo, Saxon, Protestant, you know, sophisticated diplomat. He doesn't look like any of those people. And the third thing is his language is undiplomatic. They feel that that's what they. So they don't like him. And then the more important thing is if you look at when the EU was formed basically in 1981, 82, when it really got going, they were almost same GDP as we were. And now they've only got 65% of our GDP. And when you look at their annual GDP growth, not just the size of the economy but the growth, they're way behind us. So what's happening in the world? The United States is going like this and Europe is just sitting here and they've got, there are fertility rates way down at 1.65, theirs is 1.4 fire. They're shrinking more radically than we are. Their socialism is not working. They have open borders, they're undefended. And the more they see the United States getting more powerful after they almost caught us up in the bad years. And they see that we're not bogged down anywhere and we've got this crazy president that keeps talking about unleashing this economy. Entrepreneur. You got all these oligarchs they call, you know, like it's got Elon Musk, Ken and Dreeson, David Sachs, all these people. He called in and said, look, you don't like me, I don't like you. But In World War II, Roosevelt called in William Knudsen, the head of GM. He called in Henry Kaiser, the Kaiser Steel, he called in Henry Ford and he said, just go make money and I'll let you do what you want. No more New Deal stuff, no more. So but you got to build more stuff than the Germans and the Japanese. And that's pretty much what Trump has said to them, I'm not going to tell you how to run AI, but you only have one. And I will sue the Europeans if they try to screw around with you overseas and censor you or tax you. But you've got to do stuff like invest here and help us be strong. And it's kind of a weird patriotic appeal to these billion multi billionaires. I think it's got the left kind of really confused.
- [86:38]
Jillian Michaels
The left has become an unrecognizable party. And I like to say that I am a moderate, I am a purple person, and my vote is up for grabs simply because I would hope that it would hold both sides somewhat accountable as we saw the independents sway this election. So there's some reason to not go all the way over to one side or another. And listen, I'm not an economist. I was like, okay, I get what Trump is doing. I'm a little scared. I wish maybe he'd gone one territory at a time. But I, you know, I'm gonna hold on and see how it pans out. But what I can tell you for sure is that it would have been. I would've remained neutral with the left on it, and Trump would have lived or died, and the Republican and all of his people that will run after him would have lived or died on this one. Kind of like Kamala was the border czar, but with the left jumping in to be like, no, no, no, the courts are gonna block you. And not only that, on illegal immigration, we're going to have judges letting illegals that have committed crimes and beat people nearly to death out the back door. And like, what the hell are they doing? And I just, I. There's no, there's no right answer here. But if you had to guess on the triple down, like, they hate him. Okay, resist. Okay. But I find that it's making them look worse because now if tariffs fail, I can blame someone other than Trump. I can blame them for this.
- [88:04]
Victor Davis Hanson
Yeah, yeah, that's pretty much. That's pretty much correct. They. I grew up in a Democratic Party. I have a twin brother who basically doesn't speak to me. He's left wing Democrat.
- [88:16]
Jillian Michaels
So unfortunate. So unfortunate.
- [88:19]
Victor Davis Hanson
Yeah, it is. But the Democratic Party is really. They keep saying the Republican Party has changed. It has, but not in the same ways as the Democratic Party. I think it started with globalization. So we Woke up around 2000, and all of a sudden, with this end of the Cold War and this technological revolution, certain people had markets of 6 billion people. And those people were usually on the coast. And they were professionals and they were tied in with Wall street, with the universities, with the media nexus, and they had skill sets in investment, insurance, media, academia, that they could capture that audience. And they did. And, you know, all of a sudden these universities had campuses all over the world. All of a sudden a college president went from making 200,000 to 3 million. All of a sudden an anchor made not 1 million, but 20 million. Rachel Maddow $30 million for one day a week. And that was based on their overseas new markets. All of a sudden, gosh, Silicon Valley went to, I think it's $9 trillion in market capitalization. So they made this a lot of money. But part of that investment in globalization was we outsourced and offshored. So anybody who was dependent on traditional, very essential things, assembly, manufacturing, farming, mining, construction, much of their jobs or the things they produce were let in tariff free or their jobs were outsourced. And what happened is there was an ideology that followed to explain that organic process. And the explanation was, these people are stupid. They didn't catch on. We are the best and brightest. We're entitled and we should have more say, even though we're smaller because we're smarter. So you started to see manifestations of that divide. And sometimes it would be Hillary Clinton saying, I'm going to put everybody out of work in West Virginia. And she said that in the 2000. Or it was Joe Biden said, well, if we shut down all the mines, maybe you can learn coding. Or it was the vocabulary of disparagement. For Obama, it was clingers. For Biden, it was chumps and dregs. For Hillary, it was deplorables and irredeemables. For the FBI, Peter Strzok and Lisa Page, it was smelly Walmart people. For I think his name was Caputo. He said that he went to a Trump. He was a CNN reporter. He said he went to a Trump rally and he had more teeth than everybody there. But it was the idea that these guys are losers and they didn't really know how to make all this money. And therefore they were stupid or they deserved what they got. And this new best and brightest were going to be left wing because they had all the money, they had all the opportunity. But they felt bad about the state of. At least they felt bad for particular people they didn't feel bad for. And then the weird thing about it was finally they wanted to ingratiate themselves with this growing 30% DEI. So they said, there's white racism everywhere, white supremacy that was Mark Milley. And remember that they got Mark White. And you thought, well, you idiot, you make $400,000 a year. You're going to be a depart. You're going to be a big defense contractor. You're going to be a globalist arms merchant. When you get out of the military or advisor, and you've just told all the people in the army that are white, middle class, lower middle class, that they are racist. And you said you were going to run an investigation. So the first thing was that 8,500 they kicked out of the military for not getting a vaccination. When they let Everybody. They let 12 million people in from Mexico. They didn't care if they were vaccinated or not. So then they quit. And then they quietly issued the report and it said there was no systematic conspiracy of white race. But in the process, they lost 45,000 recruits. So when Trump came in, we were 45,000. And all it did was take Pete Hecseth and say, we're going to look, we want to fight, we want. And the weird thing was, if the Pentagon has data on everything, but they're very hard to find. They'll have it on every matter of race and gender, for promotion, for retention, for underrepresentation. But when you look at the dead, it's very hard to find. You can find it, but the dead in Iraq and Afghanistan is about 73, 74% of all those that were killed in action in Afghanistan and Iraq were white white males. They only make up about 34%. So you had this big truth that the Pentagon didn't want, and what the reality was, with all this demonization of white males and working class stupid people and deplorables, these were the people that every time we got in a jam, we overrepresented them. They died at twice their numbers in the demographic. And we sent them to Gaza. I was embedded twice in Iraq. And you go places like Fallujah or Taji, they're horrific. And you would see these kids in 2006, 6 and 7, and they were all from the Middle west or the south or rural California. And they were out there, right? And they died at double their numbers. And yet we, we, we deliberately said, we don't need you people. We're dei. And they all quit. And so all of a sudden, the military, when you ask them, they said, well, we didn't need 45,000, but they did.
- [94:11]
Jillian Michaels
Yep.
- [94:11]
Victor Davis Hanson
And so. And now they're coming back. But my point is, it's that group of people that we in so many different ways. We demonize. And if you're a white elite, college president, anchor woman, anchorman, and you want to make your DEI colleagues feel really good, then you say, we're suffering from endemic racism. But it's never them. It's those guys.
- [94:36]
Jillian Michaels
Right, exactly. From their position of power, of course.
- [94:40]
Victor Davis Hanson
It'S the Trump rally people. And yet. But when you look at the picture, those people are. I've known them, I grew up with them. This is Fresno county, the Oklahoma diaspora. There's still a lot of. And they are the least racist I know. They intermarry with minorities. And the people who are really exclusionary, if you want to get down to it, are wealthy by coastal elites because they're always out. Every time I meet one of them, they're always telling me that their daughter Ghost graduated from Yale and she married a Harvard Law graduate. And this, this, this, this. So there you have it.
- [95:15]
Jillian Michaels
If I could tie it back to the beginning here, these two books that I specifically wanted to ask you about that I've been reading. Literally, one is talking about the end of the American dream, and the other one is the end of everything. So my question becomes, does everything you talk about with tribalism, elite progressives, globalization, weaken America to the point that it is vulnerable in the ways Constantinople was and Thebes was and Carthage was? And if so, what is the message or the lesson you would hope our politicians take away before it's too late?
- [96:05]
Victor Davis Hanson
Well, even though we're time and space, there's different criteria today of a health of a nation. There's still certain constants throughout history. One of them is, can the country feed itself? Does the country have fuel? Does the country have a military? Does the country have a stable constitution institution? Does the country have defensible borders? And when you start to. Does the country have, you know, illustrious. So you look at the United States, it's never just absolutes in comparison to what. So we're the largest oil and gas producer in the world right now combined. More than Saudi Arabia, more than Russia. We, if we want to, we probably have more precious rare earth than anybody. If we wanted to go into Wyoming or Tehachapi. Yes.
- [96:59]
Jillian Michaels
Oh, my gosh, it was like Ukraine and Russia had the most.
- [97:02]
Victor Davis Hanson
No, I know. Because we, we have, we. We've put them off limits, but doesn't mean we can't put them back on limits. When you look at our military, I know we overspend. We're not. But the military is still the most lethal military in the world by far. If you look at nuclear, we're trying to keep up with the Chinese but the Chinese are way behind us still. They got another decade or more. If you look at the constitution, we have the oldest democracy in the world. It's the oldest. It's going to be 250 years. And we're the only multi. For all these problems that we've discussed the other. There's only two other large multi million person, you know over 300 million or 253 and that's Brazil and India and they're multiracial democracies and they're not working very well. We're the only one that is able to get by with. I mean we. It's tax but we're still so ours. We're the largest by value of food. We're the largest not in actual anymore with China but the, the value of our food is the highest, is the greatest in the world right now. We're the greatest producer by the value of all and we're the most diverse food producer from nuts, fruits, everything. It's only in the United States. So you look at all of this and there's a lot to think. I think when I first got to Hoover I would always think about Milton Friedman. He always quoted. I think it was either David Hume or Samuel Johnson. He always said there's a lot of a country people would. He'd always. I debated him once and he always said we have a lot of rot left in this country. Meaning we have such a surplus of resources. We can take a lot of rot but we're. It's just a question of cyclical renew. So Rome, rome started in 77753 and it went all the way if you count the Eastern Empire to 1453. And you could argue there were periods where it was completely gone and the west was gone but the Byzantines lasted another thousand years. So it's very hard to calibrate. I have a lot of confidence in the youngest generation right now, 18 to 28, 30 because they always rebel against things and they can't buy houses as well. There's too many regulations and they don't like the racial stuff and all of that stuff whether they're minority or not minority. I don't even know what a minority means. So called white people are minority in California now. But the point I'm making is that I think I have more hope in them than my generation. That basically caused all the problems. I was at the end of the. I'm 71. It was the end of the Baby boomers and we really were the ones that ruined a lot of stuff. But I have to be optimistic and I don't. You know, I used to really enjoy reading the Wall Street Journal, but when I see the Wall Street Journal, who's not the columnist but the news division be taken over by basically New York Times and political reporters. And when I saw March and they were saying recession and trade wars and prices are going to go up and we're going to have some shortages and then I see today and all this good news comes out about having the trade deficit this month and lowest inflation, all these. And it just tells me that there's, that there's a lot of common sense left in the world that people can say, you know, I don't need a PhD in economy in economics. I think it's a terrible thing to run up every year a trillion point one with the Chinese and give them all that foreign exchange or to wipe out the whole industrial center of the United States and get fentanyl and all this social pathology just so we can say we're free traders. So I have a lot of confidence that we're a very self correcting, self critical society and that people, we've got a lot of talent. One guy once told me, Tom Soule.
- [101:21]
Jillian Michaels
Oh, he's awesome.
- [101:22]
Victor Davis Hanson
Yeah, I had lunch with him every two weeks for 15 years. And he once said to me, you know Victor, we've got a lot of problems, but this is, we have, at that time we had about 300 million. He said, we have about 300 million and we have about 75 million of the smartest, best educated, capable people in the world. And that's larger than the whole entire countries. And even if you say that most of us don't know what's going on, we do have. And he didn't mean just educated elites, he meant people who know how to weld and start businesses and long haul trucking. So what he was saying is this country is so hard to characterize and stereotype because there's so much. It's the most dynamic country in the world. It's constantly reacting very rapidly to changing situations. Situation. If we had this conversation in 2008, 10, maybe just 15 years ago, you and I would be talking right now about peak oil. And we had reached peak oil and we were all through and our total production of oil was not 21 million barrels, it was about 7 and 8 and the Saudis were going to take over the world with the Russians. And then somebody comes along and says we can frack we can horizontal drill, and it just changes everything. And that's kind of the. We're the only country that doesn't have class impediments. We don't say, you're in the wrong class. You can't do that. We got over the racial impediment. And so you're unleashing. It's a very volatile, dangerous society and very dynamic and chaotic. But once you unleash it, you get a guy like Elon Musk, and all of a sudden he can make an electric car that everybody wants. All of a sudden, he can save NASA and make better stuff than the government, or he can give Internet. I'm speaking to you on Starlink. I would never be able to do it in rural California. So he's really just one guy, came here and we let him do what he wanted. And so I have a confidence that if we. We just keep within the sidelines and don't go crazy and, you know, rail in these campuses a little bit and stop these Darrell Coopers. Not stop them by fiat or law, but by force of argument. Yes, the middle will hold. And if it does hold, I'll just finish with an anecdote. Can I do that, please? I was at a. A retreat, and I can't tell you where it is or who was sponsoring it, but anyway, there was a sense of pessimism about Trump and everything from academics. And the final person was Larry Ellison of Oracle. And some of the questions from the audience, and we thought that he would be very pessimistic, and I could not believe what he said. Somebody mentioned Elon Musk. Are you worried? No. We're so lucky to have him. He is so brilliant. He's done this. Are you worried about tariffs? No, not really. We got 10 trillion. I mean, people are fighting to come here. This is the only place in the world where it works. I'm spending 100 billion here. Are you worried about our military? No. If you look at. We're catching on to drones. We can make drones at 19 GS. Nobody else can do that. And he just. He went through every single thing. It was the most uplifting, reserved, intelligent analyses of our finance, our technology, our military, all the resources of the United States. And he basically said at the end he regretted that he was 80 because we were on the. The edge of a renaissance.
- [105:08]
Jillian Michaels
I have chills. That makes me feel really good because I have to concede that I sometimes give away to a bit of that pessimism.
- [105:19]
Victor Davis Hanson
I do, too. I do, too. My wife calls me Eeyore, Winnie the Pool. Don't go to the speech and do your Eeyore thing. But I'm getting confident, I really am. And only in America can you see a multi billion dollar builder who's part of a Manhattan elite be a spokesman for the lower middle class. It just doesn't make sense. And it doesn't, you know, how can you in America talk about 45,000 short recruits and the military is kind of doomed and then 60 days later they've got record, they've never had higher one day enlistment, 10,000 a day, I think a week in one week. So we're very radical and changing and everything is disruptive and that bothers the Europeans and everybody. But when it comes down to it, we will exercise the greatest force. It just has to be pushed in the right direction.
- [106:18]
Jillian Michaels
I can't thank you enough for joining me and for answering all my freaking questions for me. This has been long overdue because I follow you, watch you everywhere, read your books. But for a person who may be.
- [106:31]
Victor Davis Hanson
New to you, no, I watch you on Gutville.
- [106:34]
Jillian Michaels
Oh, yes, thank you. That, that actually makes me feel great. Now I have to go back on Gutfeld if I know you're watching. I'm going to make sure my calls today.
- [106:43]
Victor Davis Hanson
And my wife's a big fan of you on fitness and things.
- [106:47]
Jillian Michaels
Thank you. Where, where can people go to get your books, your content and so on?
- [106:53]
Victor Davis Hanson
I have VictorHansen.com aggregates it. I do five minute every morning for the Daily Signal and then I do four a week for the Victor Hanson podcast show and I write two columns.
- [107:07]
Jillian Michaels
A week and of course, all of your books which are available everywhere on Amazon.
- [107:11]
Victor Davis Hanson
Yeah.
- [107:12]
Jillian Michaels
Thank you for everything. You're fantastic. I really appreciate your time and everything that you've taught me.
- [107:17]
Victor Davis Hanson
Well, thank you, Julian. Take care.
- [107:20]
Jillian Michaels
Thank you so much for watching. If you enjoyed the podcast, please, like comment, subscribe and share and make sure to let me know what guests you want to see on in the future.