← Keeping It Real: Conversations with Jillian Michaels
Keeping It Real: Conversations with Jillian Michaels
Dave Rubin: Groundbreaking Gaza Deal: Trump’s Peace Ultimatum
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- [00:02]
A
Today on the show, we're joined by my friend Dave Rubin. Now, Dave is the host of the Rubin Report. He's an author, and he is one of the most popular outspoken political pundits in culture today. And in this conversation, we're gonna dig into President Trump's newly unveiled 20 point Middle east peace plan. On the surface, it looks sweeping and historic, but of course, the devil is in the details. So Dave is gonna break down what those details mean and how the narratives are already being spun. And what key historical context do we need to understand in order to get an idea of where this is likely headed. And then beyond geopolitics, Dave also opens up about his personal relationship with Charlie Kirk, what that friendship meant to him, of course, how it shapes the way he looks at the moment. And we widen the lens to tackle something that affects every one of us. Misinformation in the Zeitgeist. How do we separate fact from fiction? How do we keep nuance alive?
- [00:59]
B
How do we.
- [00:59]
A
How do we resist the temptations to let bad actors co opt the truth for their own ends? It's wide ranging, part political analysis, part history lesson, and part personal reflection that's gonna leave us with the tools to see past the noise and understand what's really at stake. Let's get going. Keeping it real. Keeping it real. Keeping it real. Keeping it Real with Jillian Michaels. Dave, how are you?
- [01:28]
B
It's good to see you, Jillian. There's a lot of crazy things happening in the world.
- [01:32]
A
I know.
- [01:33]
B
We will try to make sense of them. I suppose this is basically what we do privately with each other. And now I guess we're doing it for the public. So let's roll.
- [01:41]
A
Okay, so I want to talk about Trump's 20 point peace plan. Obviously, there are all the naysayers out there claiming this is a setup and they're giving Hamas an impossible deal to accept, which will then give them permission to go in, commit genocide, annex Palestine. And I'm sure you've heard it a thousand times before. So I, I want to look at this piece by piece. What is Hamas saying? What is the devil in the details here? And try to break it down for people in a way that they can understand and have a very honest perspective. My first question is, historically speaking, how many different attempts at peace have there been? It looks like, regarding how narrowly you're going to define peace, 20 or so different attempts at this?
- [02:31]
B
Yeah, well, first off, it's just, and this is the unfortunate part of doing anything as it pertains to the Middle East. Like a huge amount of people have an unending amount of their own facts. But I will lay out a couple facts here and, and you one of the reasons I love you. There's a million reason I love you. But as a, as a communicator you love facts, you love fact checking, you love actually bringing information. So I would welcome you right now, while we're doing this or post production or whatever to fact check anything that I say right now. First off, a state, an independent sovereign state of Palestine for a place known as, for people known as Palestinians never existed. There was the British Mandate of Palestine where Arabs, Jews, Christians, Druze and others lived. Baha', I, many others lived there. When the British empire finished up around 1947, they offered to split the land. The Jews said yes, the Arabs, not Palestinians because there was no such people really as Palestinians. The Arabs said no. Then about five Arab armies launched a war to destroy whatever remaining Jews there were. Post Holocaust they lost. Israel came into existence. The United states was the first country to acknowledge Israel. May of 19 1948. Blah, blah blah. Over the years, I don't know if it's exactly 20, but there have been at least a dozen times that Israeli governments, right, left, center, all over the political map have tried to make deals. As a matter of fact the only for the first time in history when the Palestinians were just, who were just the Arabs that lived there. The first time they got any autonomy over their own lives was after the Oslo accords in the 1990s. So the Israelis are actually the only people who have ever given the Palestinian Arabs any act sexual rights. That's by the way, separate from the 2 million Arabs who live in Israel proper as full and equal citizens and have been on the Supreme Court and are our doctors and lawyers and all of the rest of the things. Jordan, when people talk about apartheid, Jordan is an actual country of apartheid, as is Lebanon. Lebanon has I think two dozen laws that preclude you as a Palestinian from having certain jobs. Jordan is a majority Palestinian and I'm using air quotes because again, it wasn't even a real people. That's just the truth is real majority Palestinian population ruled by the Hashemite King of Jordan who does not let them vote and be involved in a series of other public, public life things. Israel has offered to split the land, they've offered to split Jerusalem. I mean they're not going to do these things anymore and they never, they never should. I, I've never believed in two state solution. I still don't believe in a two State solution. You know, there's several dozen, there's several dozen from the outside looking Indy. Wait, wait, wait. Let me just say, let me just say one last thing. There are several dozen Arab Muslim nations. Gaza has a border with Egypt which has Sinai next to it. They could have on October 8th, when they knew there was going to be an incoming assault after the horrific day of October 7, they could have let every, if they cared about the Palestinians, they could have opened up the border and let everyone in. But I would welcome you. Maybe you guys can do it. In post, put up the images of what the border of Gaza and Egypt looks like, what that fence with cement and barbed wire that goes up and up and up, what that looks like versus, and I've been there, the literal chain link, minor barbed wire fence that the Israelis had with the Gazans. And the Israelis let the Gazans come in to work on many of the kibbutzes that ended up getting where everyone got slaughtered and burned down and everything else. So what this all boils down to is there's one tiny little Jewish state. Again, put up a map of the Middle east in post. It's tiny. It's absurdly tiny. Some Jews live there. If the Arabs and the Muslims want to accept that there's gonna be this one little tiny speck there, they can flourish because Israel will be more than happy to work with them and provide water and technology and all of those things. But if they want to dedicate the ethos of their nations and their cultures into destroying it, it's just not going to work out that well. That wasn't really an answer to the 20 point thing. We can get to that.
- [06:43]
A
Well, I want to get to that, but it needs context, which is why this is so important. So from the outside looking in and I have again no knowledge, this is why I interview people like yourself or people on the other side like Dave Smith, for example. I have no knowledge of the history of this, I have no some understanding of what you've just said because I've listened to people like yourself say this before. But from the outside looking in, I think the average normie wants the killing to stop, wants to acknowledge atrocities on both sides and then thinks, hey, a two state solution seems to make sense here. Let these guys have this peace, let those guys have that peace, let them do their own thing, have their autonomy. And it seems like this 20 point peace plan is going to hinge on that. And I, I can't quite get an idea if it's in there or not because it seems like some of it is vague. Why are you against that? Because that seems like a. Well, like an end, A discussion ender if they don't.
- [07:40]
B
Well, I didn't say. I didn't say I'm against the 20 point peace plan because it's not a guarantee of a state at the end. I'm just, I've never. For two states, it never made sense. There never were two states. Again, there are majority Palestinians in Jordan, so they technically, they have a state. It's just ruled by the Hashemite King of Jordan. And you can Google Black September in, I think 1973 and figure out how many Palestinians his dad killed in about three days. It was about 25,000 of them. Gaza used to be ruled by Egypt pre1967. So when people like Dave Smith say the brutal occupation that began in 1967, okay, the day before Israel took Gaza in a war that they didn't start, it was in his mind, I suppose it was occupied by Egypt. So why are you okay with Arab on Arab occupation? It's only the Jews then. They put 7,000 Jews in Gaza. 7,000, that's it. They ripped every single one of them out during disengagement, early 2000. Every single one. They left temples, they left greenhouses, they left infrastructure. And Hamas took over, turned it all into a terror base. So in some like crazy utopian fantasy, would I be for two states and whatever? Well, kind of, but I'm a realist, not just like an eternal optimist. I mean, in the state of Israel, you know, if there's two states in the state of Israel, okay, they'll be expected to treat everyone equally. Two million Arabs will live there and be treated equally and everything else. You think one Jew is going to live in Palestine? How's it going to go for the Christians there and everything else? Ask the Christians of Bethlehem now that the Palestinians control Bethlehem. So it's not that I'm. I get what you're saying. The normie might be like, oh, there's two people here. Split it. Split this tiny little thing again. And okay, that being said, I think the 20 point plan, most of it is quite good. And this, it's up to Hamas. You want the killing to end. The killing could have ended on October 8, actually, because all they had to do was release the hostages. But they played a very smart game. They played a smart game which was that you could bleed Israel for two years in an intractable war. Because any country, any country, if the United States, think about it, If Mexican terrorists burst through the border at Tijuana and went to San Diego, killed a thousand people, and then kept another, you know, 20 of them, I think about 20 hostages are still alive two years later, we would be bombing the. Out of every part of Mexico every day, and we'd all be for it, and it would be fully justified. We'd probably bomb Canada if terrorists from Toronto went into Detroit and did that. Every nation exists to protect its own citizens. Israel owes nothing to the Palestinians. Their entire. Their entire ethos is to kill as many Jews as possible. Jews have a long history of being killed. I think. I think it's well past time to not apologize for not dying.
- [10:26]
A
It's that time. It's skims time. If, like me, you have had the hardest time with underwear that creeps up the center of your rear end so uncomfortable, or the panty lines that you see through clothes, or those inserts that come in certain bras that when you wash them, they roll up like little hot dogs. It's just. I'm sorry, but I. I know you know what I'm talking about. Bras that give you the little ar pit bulge right here, but don't give you the boost where you need it. I could essentially go on and on. I love skims. The Fits Everybody T shirt bra that fits everybody boy short are my go to. I live in them, literally. And you can shop my favorite bras and my favorite underwear@skims.com after you place your order, do me a favor and please be sure to let them know that I sent you. Just select podcast in the survey and be sure to select my show in the dropdown menu that follows. And just remember, Fits Everybody T shirt bra fits Everybody boy shorts. You're gonna love it. @skims.com, select podcast in the survey and be sure to select my show in the dropdown menu that follows. Okay, I'm gonna push back with everything I've heard. So, number one, yes, please. Israel knew they have the best intelligence in the world. And to. To be honest, Dave, you could see I'm like, well, they do have the. I mean, Mossad is pretty impressive. You can set up a whole beeper thing that's been going on for I don't know how many years. Like, that's impressive stuff. Israel had to know about October 7th. I got three things. They let it fly in order to have an excuse to take the land. Okay, number two, Someone just said this to me the other day. I tried to understand it. It's not so easy to understand. Israel supported Hamas in order to give them an excuse to go in and take the land. Number three, Israel. This whole thing is, is just, is an excuse to facilitate the Greater Israel project, which, that's another one I'm going to need you to explain because I can't tell if it's biblical, ideological or if it actually exists somewhere on paper in a political capacity. Because to be fair, like this is not for a lack of trying to understand. It's not easy to find this stuff. So, number one, Israel knew about October 7th. The New York Times actually wrote a piece saying they probably knew about October 7th. What is the rebuttal to that?
- [12:52]
B
Well, well, first off, I mean, the New York Times is even worth the paper it's printed on. They just did a hatchet job on. They did a hatchet job on both of us.
- [12:59]
A
Right.
- [12:59]
B
They did a hatchet job on you not too long ago. You know, I have, I have a thing hanging in my studio where they call me the leader of the alt right. So the New York Times is trash. As for the idea that they let it happen. Yes. Do they have incredible technology? Do they have incredible intelligence, all of those things. The idea that they let a thousand of their citizens, young people particularly, just get slaughtered for some political purpose is so counter to the entire driving force behind the nation. And it's, and it's nothing other than a crazy conspiracy theory. Even, even as good systems as you have related to security and walls and technology and everything else, bad things happen. We had nine, 11 happen. We didn't expect people to hijack planes and fly them into buildings. So, so, you know, look, if you, again, I, you should, people should go down there or just see videos. The fence that they had that separated Israel between Gaza was literally, it was a chain link fence that you would have to keep at a dog park with a little bit of barbed wire. And then they literally were. You know, the irony of what happened that day was that many of the people who lived in the south by the, they called the Gaza envelope, like right around Gaza, they were all lefties, they were peaceniks who wanted to live near Gaza to coexist. So a lot of the people that killed them on that day literally worked in their homes and farms. We know that because they put numbers on the doors of their houses to tell them how many people lived in each house because they knew the exact map because they literally live there. So the idea that they let it happen is, first off, there's literally no evidence of it. I think it was just a horrific breakdown of intelligence and everything else. And it's just so cynical. It's just kind of beyond the pale. I would say the second one, as far as, did they fund any of it? One of the things in the Middle east, but in most parts of the world, you sometimes have to make deals with bad people. So once Hamas took over, they knew they were a genocidal organization, but they never fully went in and destroyed them because it was kind of like every couple years, we know they're going to shoot rockets at us, and you kind of cut the grass and you just hope that it. It doesn't leak into our borders. But that they were funding them. No, they weren't funding them at all. And then. Sorry, what was the third one?
- [15:00]
A
Well.
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B
Oh, the Greater Israel thing is just like a complete.
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A
What is that? Can you. Can you.
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B
It's just.
- [15:05]
A
Dave, is it. It's like, on one hand it's biblical, on the other hand it's ideological. Then I'm sure, you know, somebody you and I both know has said, oh, it's the Likud Party charter, and there's a vision. But the thing is, Dave, I actually don't know if this is true or not. I'm being honest. And they're going to take Turkey and they're going to take Egypt, and this is what they want. And Netanyahu, I mean, in all, transparency doesn't seem like, you know, I just. There's a healthy criticism there. Like, so I don't. What is this? What is the Greater Israel Project? Is this.
- [15:44]
B
First off, it's largely just like a complete fabrication. Again, I think in post, you should put up a map of the Middle east, look at the size of Turkey, and then look at the size of Israel. Look at the size of Israel versus any other nation. There was before October 7, there was not one mainstream Israeli politician that wanted to go back into Gaza or anything or anything else. Like, there just literally was nobody.
- [16:05]
A
Because that's absolutely the story, you know. You know that obviously, you've seen all of it. It's like, we did this. They did this on purpose because this what they wanted. Because this is the Greater Israel Project. And the Greater Israel Project is take parts of everyone's land.
- [16:19]
B
And I mean, it's just. It's just utter nonsense. I can assure you, having been to Israel many times, having seen lefty governments again, they. There, it's hard to understand. They're an actual democracy, like the United States, so they swing left and then they swing right. You have governments that want peace. You have governments that just want to separate. You have. You have a panoply of ideas that come in and out of government. Netanyahu himself has had to govern with. You know, he's been in power for a long time. He's had to govern with coalitions that were all over the place, sometimes that were a little more left, sometimes that were a little more right. There is literally nobody, nobody in mainstream Israeli politics that before October 7th was like, let's go back into Gaza again. They took everybody out. They ripped people out of their homes. So why is it that 2 million Palestinian Arabs should live in Israel as equal citizens, but not one Jew should live in Gaza? Not one really, in effect, not one Christian that really wants to practice Christianity freely again? Or go to the West Bank, Judea and Samaria and figure out why the Christian population of Bethlehem has dropped something like 80% since the 90s when the Palestinians took over. There's only one place in the Middle east, really, where Christians are flourishing, and that's Israel proper. So, anyway, we can go through, like, a lot of the conspiracy theories on all of these things, but that's what they do, though.
- [17:36]
A
The problem is I get them on one side, and I have no idea what that person's talking about. Like, well, I've never heard that before. I'm gonna have to. And my goal, honestly, is just to try to be transparent with the viewer. I. I don't have any agenda. I want them to educate themselves. I want them to hear all points of view. I want them to do their own homework. And the reason I'm so deeply concerned is because, A, people are dying, and B, the rise of antisemitism is terrifying under the pretense of we're criticizing a government. It's like, in. And in. In many people, many people are. And I. And I understand that. A woman came up to me yesterday in a car park, Dave Israeli, in tears. And she was like, we feel like we're alone. We can't wear our Star of David. We can't travel around the world. And she said, not all of us agree with Netanyahu, which goes to show me, she doesn't even agree with Netanyahu, and she feels afraid. And I just. I'm trying so hard to stop the hatred on all sides, at least do my part to not make it worse. And I think by being honest and not going after clickbait. And that's something that. That you and I both. I mean, you have a huge platform, but that's something that you and I both hold dear. I Think. And, you know, we talk about it all the time.
- [19:00]
B
Yeah.
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A
So that's why I'm asking you to speak to these things, because people hear them and they believe them and they don't do the homework. And to be honest, from the outside, you don't know if it's true or not. That's. That's the reality.
- [19:11]
B
There's a couple things going on here. First off, you know, I. I am not someone. I mean, people could look at my show for over a decade and see how many times I outright called someone like a full on anti Semite or a full on racist or something like that. And it's very, very rare that I do that. Now. There. There is something particularly unique in this situation, in that before the state of Israel called the Holocaust, and before that there were pogroms, and before that there was the Spanish Inquisition. And we can keep going through these things. So before the state of Israel existed, it was not particularly good for the Jews. It's good till it's not. Right. So the hatred that used to just go to these individual people or these groups of people living in these other countries has just been projected onto Israel. So there is something about a specific type of hatred. Right. And there's a reason. I mean, the left loves victims. Israelis are not victims. They're supposed to be victims because of the history of the Jewish people. But they fight and they survive and they thrive, actually. And so it doesn't really fit the intersectional calculator. But I would say the other part, the other part, as it pertains to the clickbait and all that stuff, is there's a crazy amount of money to be made here as well. That is just the fact, like the amount. It's not even money. It's money and fame. Because the amount of bots and foreign manipulation that's happening on X and that's going through all of the algorithms and that's going through TikTok and brainwashing all of these people. By the way, in Charlie's letter that now has been published that he wrote to Netanyahu, he was worried about that as a defender of Israel, he's saying, you guys, you know, your eye is not on this now. I would say that mostly it's because Israelis are focused on surviving and living normal lives. So they're not always worried about what the rest of the world thinks of them. But look, you can always. You can just think back to less than two years ago, because it's almost the second anniversary of October 7th. There was about a two day window where everybody was like, oh, my God, our sympathies are with Israel. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. But everyone also knew that, that two more days and it was all going to turn. And that's what happened. And that's what Hamas played on. They played on a bunch of sort of willful dingbats who, if, if anyone, if anyone, if Dave Smith or any of these people, if your wife was murdered and your daughter was kidnapped and they burned down your neighbor's house with his children in it. And we can go through all the things. And by the way, I've seen the 47 minute video that they don't publicly show. I went to an Israeli military base and saw it. And trust me, seeing the guy that was beheaded while the Hamas guy smiled, that was not the worst of it. It was worse than that. I assure you that was not the worst part of it. But what would you do? The question is, what would you do? Israel has no responsibility to do anything for the Palestinian people. They don't. They want more of their dead people. It's an unbelievably horrific bargain. But also, Gillian, one other thing. No other country would be asked any of these things. Things. No other country. If this was, if terrorists from Turkey bust into Greece and killed a thousand Greek people and then the Greek army was attacking Turkey, nobody would demand Greek. The Greek people feed them feta while they're, while they're trying to get their hostages out of town.
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A
I do know that argument. I do know that argument. And I hear you and I, and I've pointed out, like, where's your outrage about all these other things? As has Bill Maher. But the reality is the, the innocence in Palestine and these children, we've all seen it, it. And it's like, it is to me personally, October 7th is disgusting. And the hate that I see online for the Jewish people is terrifying. And the stuff coming out of Palestine and these children, it's like, it is disgusting. So, so the.
- [22:40]
B
Right, well, it's by design, though. It's by design, right? They are putting, they are purposely hiding people underneath schools and nurseries and houses and they literally force them to be there. And then Israel, no other army in the world, drops leaflets. You better leave. We're about to attack this. They send text messages, they send videos in Arabic, all of these things. Like, so it's really, this is really just a matter of how much does the west want to stand up for itself? Because these tactics will start being used all across the west when they start Doing this across Western Europe, which obviously is coming, and then when they start doing it in Dearborn or other places like, we'll see. We'll see Dearborn. But you have a responsibility to your citizens as an elected government of any nation. You have a responsibility to your citizens, not to the citizens of anywhere else. Gaza. The Gazans made a choice. They made a choice by electing Hamas. They elected Hamas, and then Hamas killed all of the opposition and then never held elections again in 20 years. But they did make a choice. So no one wants to see dead kids, obviously, but the answer is, if you don't want dead kids, release the hostages. Simple as that.
- [23:46]
A
Well, okay, so let's talk about. About what, what is on the table, right? Because then they're like, oh, Hamas said they would release the hostages, and then Israel bombed Qatar. And this, not the other. This is what's. And you can't, honest to God, it becomes a game of, they did this, he did that, they did this, they did that. And at this point, it's like, this is what's on the table, a 20 point peace deal. So from what I understand so far, correct me if I'm wrong here, Trump has given Hamas three to four days to accept, and this happened on the 29th of September. So. All right. Hamas supposedly had not officially been presented it yet on the 29th. Qatar and Egypt are going to be the ones, mainly Qatar, that are going to be negotiating with Hamas. Hamas has said they will study it in good faith. They insist. I know, I hear you, but let's. But see, like, you're, You're. Your pessimism about it is, Is. I know, but like, if.
- [24:45]
B
David, I don't. I actually don't. No, no, no, no. I don't have a pessimism about the plan. The plan, I think, is pretty damn good. You do? I really do.
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A
Okay.
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B
Yeah. My pest. My. My smile was that, oh, yes, Hamas, the terrorist organization that literally was beheading babies, that they're going to study it in good faith. You know, it's like.
- [25:01]
A
But then, but then, you know what? On the other side, they're like, oh, the evil genocidal Jews don't really mean it. Like, if we don't.
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B
Except if they wanted to commit a genocide, they could have done it in 48 hours. If they wanted to kill everybody there. This thing would have been over two years ago. I mean, that's just the reality.
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A
I understand, I understand, but I know.
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B
I get it.
- [25:19]
A
I get you're trying, you're trying, but I'm Just like, if we don't stop and just say, like, let's look at what's on the table without coming to this with. But you, it's almost like we're never gonna get there. And this to me is also representative of so many other historical hatreds we're seeing in our country. Like, if we cannot let go of. I hate you for this and I hate you for that. And I, like, we gotta, I don't know what happens. It's the ruin of civilization as we know it. Like, if I, if I am hopeful for this, okay, and let's say they look at it right. All right, so they have, they insist that any deal must guarantee Palestinian sovereignty. To be honest, Dave, I don't really know what that means when I'm looking at the 20 point plan, because it's like Palestinian state, yes or no? Their rejection of demilitarization. Well, they strongly object to conditions requiring them to disarm or give up control of Gaza. So that's going to be the end, I would imagine. The leaders say they were excluded from advanced negotiations. Here would be my, my question to you on this one, though. I feel like Qataris are not stupid. I feel like this would have been floated to Hamas or, or everybody prior to them making this announcement, Trump and Netanyahu together, or everybody would have such egg on their face. Do you think that, like, Hamas had no idea or they had some idea?
- [26:45]
B
Well, you'd have to ask the leaders of Hamas, who have housed the billionaire leaders of Hamas for years. You'd have to ask the Qataris that. Right. So that's one part. But the other part is the look, the deal, whether, whether we think it'll bring peace at the end. Trump said, eternal peace, or something like, I'm not that Pollyannish. But the basic idea that. Here's the deal, Bibi's not getting everything he wants, but he signed on board. You guys have 72 hours to say yes. And Trump said, if you don't say yes, Israel's gonna do what it's gotta do. So if Hamas, if any, anyone that cares about the Palestinian people, which by the way, very few people actually care about the Palestinian people. They just want dead Jews. If you cared about the Palestinian people the entire time, you'd be screaming, release the hostages. It simple as that. But if you cared about the Palestinian people, this is it, there's a deal. Maybe you're not getting everything you want, but you're gonna release the hostages, Israel's gonna completely withdraw, you're gonna get a ton of money pumped into that area. It's on the same freaking coastline of the Mediterranean that Tel Aviv, which is one of the most beautiful beaches in the world, is on. You have every opportunity right now. So if they say no, and that's why it's so interesting, because all of the pro Palestinian people, they're all silent about the deal because they don't want want this to end. They want the slow bleed out of Israel. It has nothing to do with saving the Palestinian people. If it was saving the Palestinian people, all of the pressure in the world would have been on Egypt. Sinai is freaking empty, by the way. Israel had Sinai and they gave it back to Egypt for a piece of paper that said we're gonna have peace. I've been to Sinai. It's empty. It's huge. It's probably 10 times the size of Israel. You could have moved every gaz in there the next day. You'd think Israel was gonna chase them out. Like, like, no.
- [28:25]
A
Okay, okay, so no, it's a, basically a good deal.
- [28:30]
B
It's a good. You want the war to end, you want the Israelis out, you want the hostages back. It's a good deal.
- [28:34]
A
All right.
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B
Does it lead to Polyana peace? Probably not, but whatever.
- [28:38]
A
Okay, so. So I want to look at one part of the hostages piece, right? Well, they didn't give up the hostages because it was their only protection, even though Israel was able to take them out any place, anytime, anywhere, regardless of them giving up the hostages. So that didn't make a ton of sense to me, but I heard it quite a bit. Well, now Netanyahu said he would offer them amnesty. Give it up, walk away, demilitarize, give us back our people, we'll give you back your people. We're going to give you amnesty. Do you believe it? And do you think they take the offer? Because I'm told that the people in charge of Hamas now are like fourth stringers, like a bunch of kids. Because the, the people who headed Hamas two years ago are gone, right?
- [29:21]
B
I mean, I don't know if they're going to take the deal. It's a little hard to know what the chain of command is and all that stuff, but whatever influence Qatar and Egypt has, like, they better take the freaking deal. Trump said, this is the deal. 72 hours, right? So better take the deal. By the way, most countries in the world, if this had happened to them, I think a lot of countries would have had a quick conversation with their military elite and said, you bomb the out of this place and basically kill Everybody. Within about 48, 72 hours. And unfortunately, our hostages are going to pay the price. Israel's lost almost a thousand soldiers. These are pretty much all 25 year old men in the effort to save 20 living hostages. So at some point, that doesn't even make sense anymore. It's an unbelievably horrific negotiation that you have to think about. But again, imagine if it happened from an American context, what we would do if we just knew that over time we were just sending more and more healthy young people for situation that may not even ever get back those hostages. So this is it. This is it. They can choose. Whoever they is, they can choose. You want to continue this or not? But if any. But it's so interesting, the silence of the quote unquote pro Palestinian side. Why wouldn't they. If they've been. They've all been screaming there's a genocide, there's a genocide, which there isn't. And by the way, they've been screaming about that for 50 years. The Palestinian population has gone up virtually every year since 1967. But if you were, if you believed it was a genocide and this was the end of it, and even if you thought you were still getting the short end of the stick for some reason, you'd still do it. But no, no silence from all of them.
- [30:57]
A
Well, there's.
- [30:57]
B
Have you seen one?
- [30:58]
A
I have. I have. Who? I did watch Jank because I wanted to be. I wanted to hear the other side of it. And Jenk's position is, hey, if this is real, it's great, but the devil's in the details. And I'm like, okay, because I, I was like, what is the other side? So I can ask Dave Rubin, since the chances of getting you in a room with Cenk, even though you were brave enough to do it on Piers Morgan, which I was so impressed by. But. So his thing is, I think or suggested that it's some sort of a trick because the devil's in the details and it'll be impossible. Right. Like how far. What is your security perimeter? Are you really pulling out of Palestine?
- [31:41]
B
Well, they wrote. They wrote a map. They wrote. The thing is, but okay, so we can always deal.
- [31:45]
A
Their game is, this is a trick. They're going to give him an offer they have no choice but to refuse. And now you have carte blanche to be genocidal animals. That. That is the I'm tell.
- [31:56]
B
That's what I know. But. I know, but I'm not agreeing.
- [31:59]
A
I'm just right so that.
- [32:01]
B
I mean, he's just an epic. So I, so I can't speak to his, I can't speak to. Well, I guess I could speak to his motives because I do know him. I mean, the guy's just a. But that aside for a second, again, if you believed this was a genocide, if you cared about the Palestinians in any way whatsoever, you have the leader of the free world presenting a deal. It's on him. Now it's on Trump. So whether you like the deal or not or anything else, the Israelis are saying, we just want our people back. We are going to move back. They literally presented a map with drawn lines on it about what the borders will look like and where, what do they look like and all these things.
- [32:36]
A
I tried to. I missed that. So.
- [32:38]
B
Well, you can pull it up. There's a certain, there's a certain, certain border that, you know, Gaza's basically been shrunk over time as they've gone in because they have to basically go in house to house. But as the time goes on, and you guys should show the map as I'm talking about this, maybe, maybe even my guys can pull up the map as the time goes out, they will move back, back, back, and eventually it'll be to the regular border with Gaza. But. And there might be this like tiny sliver security perimeter. Like security perimeter, which anyone in their right mind would be for. Got it on both sides. Right? You should be for it on both sides.
- [33:09]
A
Yes, completely understand. Talk to me about who you think. Tony Blair seems like a good guy. Right. How do you feel about Tony Blair? We both know Trump. I mean, everybody knows Trump wants a Nobel Peace Prize. So this isn't. Yeah, this is not theatrics for him. This is not performative in any way. He started this with the Abraham Accords, which was so cute yesterday. Why didn't you say like that? That was very sweet, actually. We both know he actually wants this. He's evidenced that with what he did in his first term with the, the Abraham Accords. So he means it. I, I take him at face value unquestionably. And he put his name on it. Like if you ate Netanyahu, I'm in charge. I felt great about that. Tony Blair and a group of neutral international leaders. Any want to positive guess like who could that be? What are you thinking? What do you think of Tony Blair?
- [34:03]
B
Yeah, I mean, Tony Bear is basically fine. He's tried different cracks at Middle east peace over the years, particularly with Bill Clinton. Like, does he have any respect of anyone on around there? Probably not. But you need to hand it to somebody to facilitate some of this stuff, right? Otherwise it just gets kicked back to, like, the five families of Gaza who will be fighting again, and whatever's left of Hamas and everything else. So again, that's why it's like, okay, here is a deal. It's 20 points. It's on paper. It is not perfect. We will see what happens. But at the very least, at the very least, if Hamas accepts and Israel withdraws and gets their people back, then there's at least a period of time where there won't be killing, there won't be fighting. Maybe nobody's really happy with what happens. Maybe there will be internal fighting in Gaza or whatever. Maybe Tony Blair's never even able to get there because the security is not good enough. But at least what seems like the intractable problem now would at least temporarily go away. But I do want to reiterate. There is not one person on October 6, there was not one Israeli that wanted to go back to Gaza. Nobody, nobody. Even Netanyahu himself, there was nobody. They wanted nothing to do with them. They tried. They tried peace, and every time they tried peace, we'll give you land, you can have autonomy. All of these things, which they had never had before, they were rewarded with terror, they were rewarded with suicide bombs, they were rewarded with car bombing, stabbings, blown up discos, and all of those things. So nobody wanted any. That's why they called it disengagement. They didn't say, it's peace leaving Gaza, we're getting peace. They said, we're disengaging from these people. And then their reward for that was October 7th.
- [35:43]
A
I have an honest question. I've heard this often and I actually don't know the answer. Hence. Hence what? I mean, honest question. Like, this is actually not for the audience, it's for me. And I hope they learn something along with me. Netanyahu has kept this going because if he doesn't keep it going, he's going to face charges as a war criminal and he'll go to prison. What is that? Is that. Where is that coming from?
- [36:06]
B
I would say it's more of just like the endless hysteria that they do with every charges as a war criminal who. From the International Criminal Court. It's not a real thing. It's not a real thing.
- [36:15]
A
He's not going to prison, basically, is what you're saying. This is because I've heard, oh, he won't end it because he'll go to jail. So he has to keep this going for his own personal benefit and safety.
- [36:26]
B
I just simply. I just simply don't view things in such a cynical lens. First off, if we're talking about the icc, I mean, it's just a nonsensical organization that. Yes. Could it keep him out of a certain series of countries and things like that? Yes, but there's no such thing as international law. It's not a thing. You know, we played an interview on my show this morning of Mamdani saying that if Netanyahu shows up in New York, we respect international law. There's no such thing. You, Jillian Michaels, are not governed by international law. You are governed as a citizen of the United States under the laws of the United States. It's a completely nonsensical, globalist idea, actually. So is it possible that if the war ends, that Netanyahu, now he's out of politics? Politics. He has. He's been in some trials around some corruption stuff that mostly, from what I understand is like, complete nonsense. But he. Could he be in some trouble? Yeah, but if the idea is that he. That that's why he's keeping the war going, I just don't got it. I just don't buy that.
- [37:19]
A
Okay. Okay.
- [37:20]
B
Yeah.
- [37:21]
A
Now we're gonna dump a ton of money in for the benefit of the Gaza people. That seems wonderful. All right. Who ends up running the place? Because I can't. I'm very confused. Do we not know there could be a Palestinian state? We aren't sure yet. We want how this goes. What am I missing?
- [37:39]
B
I mean, it's. I don't know. Is Tony gonna. Tony Blair is gonna come somehow put together some, like, technocratic government with maybe some of the more moderates. Look, if you bring in people, you know, Qatar plays both sides of the fence. But if you bring in maybe some of the people from the uae, where, for example, they've banned the Muslim Brotherhood, you know, if you bring in some of them, I don't know, maybe you could get something going there. But it's. It's. It's going to be very, very complex. But again, the point is, is if you've been screaming out on the streets and calling for river to the sea and stop the genocide and all of these ridiculous things. If you've been doing that for two years. Well, the whole thing could basically wrap up in three days from now. It's on Hamas. And again, that's why nobody on their side, that ogre notwithstanding, is calling, is excited about it. No, I haven't seen anyone that's saying they're all Being genocided. You'd be thrilled. Killed. Oh, in 72 hours, it can all end. And I don't see anybody because it's not about that.
- [38:36]
A
Okay. Okay. Where do you think Iran lands in all of this? I actually saw Trump say something to the effect of potentially extending the Abraham Accords to Iran. That to me seems like, well, that's.
- [38:53]
B
Not going to happen.
- [38:53]
A
Right? I mean, that is a fantasy. Right? I don't mean to be. I'm trying to be optimistic. I'm trying to be positive. But these are the guys that are stoning women to death because some of their hair is showing. Like, let's be. I get that we don't want a forever war. I get that we got enough problems at home. I understand all of that. Nobody wants a regime change because it never works out and it costs billions of dollars. Americans die. And I get it. I. I got it. But Iran is about as radical as it gets. The Sharia law, they're the number one funders of terror. What happens with them if this.
- [39:27]
B
I would say in some ways it doesn't matter for now. You know that. The 12 Day War was so quick. Israel again, a tiny country. Pull up a map while we're talking about this. I mean, I don't know how many Israels you could fit in Iran. Like it might be 300 of them. Like it's absurdly tiny. And they took over their airspace basically in 24 hours. Like, it seems to me their proxy in Lebanon, Hezbollah, has been completely destroyed. The Houthis shoot a rocket every now and again. Yet is Iran nicer? Are they better now? Is the regime good? By the way, the Iranian people mostly hate the reg. Regime for the reasons that you just brought up. I know, but I think they're mostly neutered. So it seems to me, if we can get today after this. So let's pretend it's five days from now, it's been accepted, the hostages are out, the Israelis have withdrawn. There's some mechanism in place that is starting a rebuild, or whatever you want to call that in Gaza. I think most of Israel's enemies have learned you got to stop with these people. And that's how the Middle east works. You've. You don't just. People are just not nice for no reason. And by. And there's deep, deep religious hatred here. There's is, there is. It just is true. The Israelis have tried relentlessly to live in peace with their neighbors. Again, the best place for an Arab Muslim to live in freedom in the Middle east is Israel. Fact. That is an absolute fact. Go find out how it's going for the Coptic Christians in Egypt. Not so well. There's about 20 of them left. There's one Jew in Egypt. I think he's dead now. But I went to Cairo in 1997, and I met him. This guy. This was a. You want to find a neurotic Jew that makes Woody Allen look like. Like Sylvester Stallone, this was the guy. So it can all be better in a matter of days. And it's just a matter of will. Will the right people accept it? Israel has. So it's up to. It's up to the other guys.
- [41:07]
A
Trump says this is a broader peace deal. Is there any shot? I mean, it seems as though the work done with the Abraham Accords back in Trump's first term has held.
- [41:21]
B
Yeah.
- [41:21]
A
I mean, unless I'm missing something, it seems like that's held pretty strongly.
- [41:27]
B
Yes, I think you could have. Again, I'm not. I'm not Pollyannish. Like, oh, my God, you're just gonna have everyone loving everybody and all those things. But look, But. But what has happened with the Abraham Accords? These countries are not warring with each other anymore. They're the UAE now, which has all sorts of deals going on with Israel. Business deals. It starts with business. It starts with freedom. Right. So is it possible that then some of these things could get a little bit better? You know, Jordan and Israel have a very cold peace, but it is peace. You don't have to all love each other. It can just. It can be just a sort of cold peace, as long as you're not trying to kill each other. So I don't think. I don't think it ma. Like, I don't think it matters that you're gonna have a peace conference where everyone's hugging and dancing and, you know, doing Haba Nagila. But what you can have is people that are not trying to kill each other. That would be pretty good. Agreed.
- [42:17]
A
Okay. Well, time is going to tell. I am exceptionally hopeful. Last question for you. Charlie Kirk's letter to Net.
- [42:24]
B
Is this all we're doing today? We just did this. There were so many other things we could have talked about. Okay. Okay.
- [42:29]
A
Well, you gave me an hour.
- [42:31]
B
You only.
- [42:31]
A
I only have an hour with you.
- [42:32]
B
Oh, yeah. All right. We can keep going.
- [42:34]
A
You gave me an hour. I mean, but. But the truth of the matter is, I. I really did want to break this down for people, because my. My. One of my top concerns is the fact that they'll see something on TikTok. Or they'll hear something in passing and they, they buy it, Dave. I, I mean they buy it with no homework, no grain of salt.
- [42:58]
B
I'll give you a, I'll give you a very simple one that sure sort of exposes and explains a lot of the hypocrisy and lunacy around this. Every single Jew that you know on earth, whether they're the most religious or the most secular. Holly Leftist Dingbat they celebrate Hanukkah. The story of Hanukkah is the story of the Jews who lived in Judea and Samaria, which we now call the West Bank. But it's just the west bank of the Jordan River. But historically it's known as Judea and Samaria. You're not going to believe who lived in Judea. It's a story of the Jews, the Maccabees, defending their land from the Greek invaders. So every year at Hanukkah, AOC who wants no Jews to live in the west bank, and Rashida Tlaib, who gladly kill all those Jews if given the chance, and Ilham, all the Jews, a happy Hanukkah. And what they are really wishing them is a happy oh, you defended your land, Judea and Samaria from the invaders. That alone shows you the absurdity. That's why before, when I said that Egypt used to Occupy Gaza Before 1967, no one cared because it was the Arabs occupying the Arabs. These things are so easily blown apart. But to your broader point, you're right, the algorithms have taken over, the foreign bot manipulation, the broken brains. It has a lot to do with leftism, just about perceived victimhood and all of those things. And there's a lot of work we gotta do.
- [44:23]
A
There's a lot of work and that's why I wanted the details. I wanted to deep dive, I wanted to tell, I wanted to present you with some of the things in the Zeitgeist that I don't have the historical knowledge to push back on or the cultural knowledge to push back on. But what I found so fascinating reading was Charlie's Kirk's letter to Netanyahu came out. It's pages and pages and he's basically saying how much he wants to protect the our Judeo Christian civilization, how much he loves Israel, how he wants to help Netanyahu with messaging, and we don't need to get into the details of it. But what I will say is it, it's a polar opposite to what certain people presented in the Zeitgeist and somebody you and I both know went so far as to claim that Netanyahu was trying to get Charlie to go to re education camp because he had turned on Israel. And I get, listen, Charlie obviously was complex. He wanted the. He had misgivings about the war. You know, Megyn Kelly has talked about this in. But to totally mischaracterize that letter and have no idea what was in it. What do you think is behind that? Is that just I want clicks or is that I'm completely sort of.
- [45:50]
B
Sort of what we talked about? Oh, it's what we talked about before. I think there's pressure and clicks. You're going to get a lot of clicks. Clicks translate to money. And then I do think there is just sort of this. You know, they say Israel first, but it's like these people are Israel first. They think everything in the world result revolves around Israel. The letter, the letter that Charlie wrote was a deep love letter. You're right, it was a deep love letter. And then he was trying to help Netanyahu understand the PR war, which again, you can absolutely criticize their pr. I think they're a tiny country trying to survive and sometimes that gets lost in trying to explain to people, oh, we'd prefer not to die. Maybe we need better PR around that. But. But is that a perfectly legitimate criticism on the PR front? Of course. Of course, there's always ways to do things better on that front. But look, there were people. I mean, it's the same set of people releasing Charlie's text days after he died, lying about his feelings, trying to completely hijack, you know, people that hated Turning Point suddenly trying to hijack it from him. It's absolutely grotesque. I have texts from Charlie that were private texts between the two of us that if I was to release, you know, you text people in different ways. If I text Jillian Michaels something. First off, when you just read a text thread, you have no sense of sarcasm or you don't know the full rhythm that people speak to. But also, keep in mind, Charlie was a fundraise also for Turning Points. So if he talked to different people, he did have to say slightly different things. He was a. He really was a wonderful human being. And I think he played. He tried to blend many things at once, which is a very complex thing to do. But obviously you're talking to one fundraiser, you're going to say one thing, they're giving you money for a reason. You're talking to another fundraiser, you're going to say something else. Right. I was in meetings with Charlie where he was raising money with People like, it's that, that's not a attack on Charlie whatsoever. The point, point is we all talk to people in different ways, via text, via whatever. The idea that someone dies and you view it as a chance to score a political point is the most grotesque thing I can possibly imagine. So have most of them been exposed as frauds and liars and con men and grifters? Yeah, and I think that's pretty good. Now, will they drag a lot of people to the, to the pits of hell with them on the way? That's yes. And it's our job to save them, I suppose.
- [48:02]
A
Look, the conspiracy theories, when you look at this on its face, to me, and I've talked about this now a lot, you got a young kid, parents say he was radicalized by the left. You got the weapon, you got his DNA on the weapon, you've got him on the location, you've got the messages back and forth with his trans male lover who is transition. I don't even know how to word it without like, I, I, who's turning into a woman who's potentially a furry. There's, you know, antifa messages on the bullet, there's discord chats. This to me, seems relatively straightforward. Am I just, am I an idiot? What am I missing, Dave? Because, because there's nothing but conspiracy theories. And I, I, I'm confounded, Jillian.
- [48:52]
B
I always forget we're exactly the same age, right? Aren't we both? We're both 49.
- [48:55]
A
Couple years. I'm 50, 51.
- [48:57]
B
You got a couple years on me. Okay, okay. But you look 36. So you're killing it. You're killing it. You know, I think one of the things that's happening right now that maybe is, maybe is like the real backdrop to all of this. Put aside all the Middle east stuff, put aside all the specifics, put aside the personalities and everything else, we are completely entering a new age because of the phone and because of the information access and the speed with which we get it and all of these things. And so in a case like this where you just laid it out like we know what the facts are behind the shooter, right? And we'll find out probably a bit more about the motives and we'll find out more in these chat rooms and how the radicalizations occur. But in some sense, it doesn't matter for a certain set of people, we are going to have to accept that there are going to be literally millions of people. Not going to be. There are already literally millions of people in our country. We're a country of 350 million people. People. And how many people will be completely disconnected from reality because they have been lied to? Just wait till AI gets a little bit better. Wait till the deep fakes are a little bit better. Wait till they're faking audio. Wait till a video goes around next year where it's Donald Trump announcing we've just launched nukes on whatever, and then all hell breaks loose. Remember the original story of War of the Worlds, the radio show from 1930, whatever, where they played it. They played it on air. It was a fictitious story by. By Wells, right?
- [50:18]
A
Yes.
- [50:19]
B
And they. They literally played it on air. And a woman in New Jersey jumped out of a window and killed herself because she thought the aliens were attacking that. But now we're on that. On steroids. So put. So that, yes, truth exists and we should relentlessly pursue it. Relentlessly. But it is in such a fog of war now, of information war, that to. To. That's partly what the problem is. You know, again, I. I love you so much because. Because as a human, there's all the reasons I love you, but as a broadcaster, I love you because you are relentlessly trying to find something true. And I think part of what they prey on, the people that don't care about the truth is they can really waste a lot of your time. They can say so many dumb things, and then Jillian Michaels has to spend all day long debunking all of this nonsense. Right. And you don't do that, right? We don't do that. I don't do that. It doesn't mean I'm right about everything. Everything. I haven't lied about anything here today. And again, I welcome you to fact check everything I've said.
- [51:14]
A
Of course.
- [51:15]
B
But we don't do that. And they're sort of preying on that. I don't. I think that it's hard for those of us who are in our 40s, 50s, and certainly the boomers, to understand there is a generation that was born on the Internet.
- [51:26]
A
Yes.
- [51:26]
B
Trolling. Trolling is an art. That all of this is a game to a certain set of nihilistic young people. Jordan Peterson has talked about this a lot. And. And how you slog through that and maintain your sanity is very tough. That is partly why I take August off the grid.
- [51:44]
A
It's exceptionally tough. And I have watched every single member of my family and my friend group, with the exception of my business partner, who has very strong mind, succumb to this. I mean, videos on TikTok about a movie with Nicholas Cage and it's all like, oh, and his name was Charles Kirkland and that guy's name was Tyler something. And it all happened on September 10th. And within seconds I'm like, honey, that's not real. Like, like the guy's name was Charles Kirkland. The other guy's name was something Tyler. And there's no reference to September 10th and there's no other similarity. But it, people are so inundated and I, and I appreciate all of that and I, I'm not asking them to take the time, but what I think I am hoping people do is to then take it all with a grain of salt. Don't, don't believe it until you research it. You know, we've all seen the video at this point, or I think most of us people who watch you and I have seen the video of AOC lying about Charlie Kirk's position on the Civil Rights act and claiming, you know, trying to make it look like he didn't want people of color to be able to vote, which of course is a flat out lie.
- [52:58]
B
Yeah.
- [52:58]
A
And you're thinking, well, this is aoc. You know, she's, she, she, she, she, she works from the government, she's a politician, she seems like a really good person. She seems to care about people and she says he's a racist that didn't want people of color to vote. And surely nobody would tell a lie that big on such a big stage. And yet she does. And then people pass it around like, see, here's proof he's a racist.
- [53:25]
B
Right. But let's not forget Barack Obama did the exact same thing two or three days after Charlie died with the Civil Rights Act. There is an absolute.
- [53:33]
A
I saw it.
- [53:33]
B
I don't want to get, I don't want to get too lost in this, but there's an absolute legitimate argument that the 1964 Civil Rights act should not have been passed. There's a libertarian argument to that, meaning that if you open, this would be one example. If you opened a store, you opened a shoe store and you were just a ra, a good old fashioned racist who liked to sell shoes. Should you be allowed to say black people and Jews can't come into my store? There's an argument to be made that it's your store and you should be allowed to do what you want. It's freedom of association and all those things. So there's an argument to be made for that. I'm not making that argument right now, but I do think it's an interesting argument to Have. And by the way, it's also. It's deeply related to the baker and the gay wedding cake and all these things. I mean, look, would you force. If there was a. A Jewish pain painter, Would you force them? Should they be forced to paint Jews in the gas chamber because you hire them to do it? So there's multiple layers of where you want government, and that's what. Anyway, we're getting a little sidetracked. But that. Charlie's point was, where do you want the government involved in private life? But of course, they extrapolate that into. Charlie didn't want black people to vote.
- [54:40]
A
He was so specific about it as well. He talks about how, because it's vague, it has facilitated voter ID laws. You don't need an ID in 19 states. Again, fact check me. But something. Something huge. 17 states. 19 states to vote. Now you have biological males in biological female sports utilizing the Civil Rights Act. He even says verbatim that on its face, the intentions of the Civil Rights act are noble and important. And of course, we would want equal opportunity for all people of color. But the way she manipulated it. And no one does the checking. No one does the checking. And that. That would simply be the. The reason that for me, I'm like, all right, you know what? I'm going to chunk out this topic. That's why today I'm like, let's chunk this out. Dave, I want to hit you with this, this, this, this, this. And at the very least, least, I want to expose somebody to the other side. I've had somebody on to. To say all those things. That's why I know them. I've listened to them, I've heard or I've sat alongside of those people. But I think it's very important that we have a varied diet and we don't form an opinion until we do our own homework. Which is one of the reasons that I just. One of the reasons that I think you're a absolute treasure. Tell everybody when you're everywhere. How many. My God. Every time you're going on tour to Australia, you get a network you're launching, you got a million different shows, you're everywhere all the time. But try to tell people where to find you or how best to find you or what you're up to.
- [56:18]
B
I mostly just try to debunk conspiratorial nonsense online. But, no, it's Rubin Report pretty much everywhere. But, yeah, I am heading to Australia, which I'm really excited for. My first book came out just a few weeks before COVID So the only international stop we were going to do on the tour was all the states, and we were going to do Australia. Because I had been to Australia a few years before with Jordan Peterson on tour, and the reaction was just so great there. I was like, I've really got it. I just want to go back solo. So that, of course, got canceled because of COVID So I'm super psyched for that. So if people are. If you have a big Australian listenership down Under, I'm in Melbourne on October 18, Sydney on the 21st, Brisbane on the 27th. They go to Dave rubin.comevents if they want to see me. And by the way, when we do Q and A's, we do it exactly like Charlie did. If you disagree, you come up first.
- [57:07]
A
Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. And I understand it's a tedious conversation. I know you've said it many times before, but it seems as though people still need to hear it. So you're the best.
- [57:18]
B
Well, thank you for being a voice that's trying to get something true across that's curious and not falling for the nonsense. I think partly what a lot of these guys are preying on, and I think you've experienced this now very firsthand, is so you have, like, the real radicals, right? And the real ideologues, and I would say liars and grifters. Like, you have that set of people, but that's a small set of people. And then even in our world, you have other people who are basically have good intentions. Maybe they know or don't know where their blind spots are, but they're being, like, picked off one at a time because there are so many pressures to just join the fray and just fight for this thing. But that's why I think we're at a really interesting moment with this, which is that the onus is now on on them. Israel said this can be wrapped up in three days, so it's on you guys. And if you've been screaming about a genocide, you should all be screaming that Hamas should be demanding to sign this thing yesterday. So we shall see.
- [58:18]
A
Okay, thank you, Dee.
- [58:20]
B
Good to see you, my friend.
- [58:21]
A
Thank you so much for watching. If you enjoyed the podcast, please, like, comment, subscribe and share, and make sure to let me know what guests you want to see on in the future.