← Keeping It Real: Conversations with Jillian Michaels
Keeping It Real: Conversations with Jillian Michaels
"The Deepest Secret In Human History!" VIRAL Sightings, Recovered Craft & ALIEN Biologics with Luis Elizondo
01:28:13
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- [00:02]
A
You've seen the videos. The grainy black and white footage of objects doing things that should not be physically possible. We're talking about trans medium travel craft that can plunge from space, scream through the atmosphere, and dive seamlessly into the ocean without breaking to stride. No sonic boom, no wings, no visible propulsion. Just instantaneous acceleration going from zero to hypersonic speeds in the blink of an eye, defying the laws of inertia and physics as we understand them. Maybe you've watched the Senate hearings where fighter pilots testified under oath. You've read the explosive exposes in the New York Times. You've seen the documentaries. But the question remains, what are these things? And who knows the truth? My guest today is the man who kicked the door open. Luis Elizondo is a former U.S. army counterintelligence special agent and the former director of the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, or otherwise known as aatip. It's the secretive Pentagon unit tasked with studying these anomalies. And he is the man that's largely responsible for declassifying the videos that changed the world's perspective on UAPs forever. And the timing could not be more critical with a massive new sighting just exposed in the Daily Mail regarding activity over Area 51. This is real. And the conversation is now shifting from if they're here and why to how imminent is first contact? Please welcome Luis Elizondo. Keeping it Real with Jillian Michaels. I'm sure this is gonna sound crazy, but I think I know almost everything about you. Not in like a creepy weirdo way, I promise. But I've been following. I've been following you since 2019, pre Covid. And all of a sudden a Pentagon whistleblower exposes UAPs. As the layman knows, UFOs. And I thought, like, this is an earthquake. This is crazy. And then we had Covid and it all sort of went underground. Didn't hear anything about it. And then I started hearing your talks everywhere. I read your book. I watched the documentary the Age of Disclosure. Long story short, we're almost seven years later from when I first discovered you. I've still not seen an alien. Nobody has publicly acknowledged an alien. We don't know what the friggin drones over New Jersey. And it's like it goes nowhere. Lou, maybe we should start at the beginning. But that's where I'm in my mind at. So who are you and how did you get into this? What do you do?
- [02:58]
B
Sure. Well, who am I? Let's see. I'm a Gemini. I like. No, I'm. You know what I'm, I'm an average person like everybody else. I serve my country. I had the privilege of serving my country after college in the United States army. And then I became a senior. I became a special agent in counterintelligence and worked with various organizations in the intelligence community, pretty much my, my entire career. And I will, I will say, you know, a lot of people know me publicly, my public Persona as being that, that UFO guy. The reality is until I was brought into the program at the Pentagon, I couldn't even, I joke, I couldn't even spell ufo. I was, my priority at the time was counterterrorism. I spent a lot of time in foreign countries serving my nation with other wonderful Americans and never really even considered the topic. You know, when I years ago, people say, oh, didn't you ever watch the X Files and things like that, and the answer is no. I, I never had that luxury. Time wasn't something that I, that I really had very much of. And it wasn't really until 2009 that I was introduced to the reality that our government, your government, is using your taxpayer dollars to investigate UAP or what was formerly known as UFOs. And you can imagine it was a bit of a shock for me, you know, a little bit of cognitive dissonance going on because as a trained intelligence professional, we've always been taught to, you know, explore things very scientifically, very analyt. And this was something that I learned through the Pentagon and the intelligence community, that the US Government has had a really long term effort studying these things and once more, that these things have the ability to enter our controlled U.S. airspace, sensitive airspace, completely unchallenged. And we have no idea where they're from or what all their capabilities are. But we do see a couple things that are a little bit concerning. One is there seems to be a strong interest in our, in our nuclear equities, our nuclear technologies, weapons systems and other technologies, and also that they have the ability to outperform pretty much anything that we have in our inventory. So I guess that probably be a good place to start and then, you know, take it from there.
- [05:26]
A
Okay. To be honest, as a kid I was actually terrified of these things. There was a book that came out by a guy named Whitley Strieber, and it had this gray creature with these giant black eyes and he tells this horror story about being kidnapped and taken into a spaceship and not to be gross, but getting an anal probe. And I remember being like a freaking 12 year old thinking this sounds horrifying and really becoming strangely Interested in the topic because I just wanted something that would tell me this wasn't possible, this wasn't real. And for years I would listen to physicists who would essentially say, like, listen, you know, yeah, the universe is massive and there's a gazillion trillion bajillion galaxies and they have a gazillion trillion bajillion stars. And those stars, X amount of those gazillion bajillion have planets and X amount of those can hold life. So yeah, there's probably a freaking ton of life out there in the universe, but they'll never get to us. So don't worry. There's no way that they could survive the travel. They'd have to go faster than the speed of light. It would take thousands of years. They could never survive it. This, that, the other, the physics won't work. And I lived very comfortably under that assumption until you. So how if these things are here? I watched the documentary and I listened to different physicists, positive guess, but it was a bit confusing. How in the world do we think these things could get here from such a extreme distance?
- [07:05]
B
Sure, that's a great, great, great question you're referring to earlier about the Drake equation. And that is the statistical likelihood whether or not intelligent life exists in our, in our cosmos. And there's actually a very interesting equation that kind of goes into that. And in fact, the Pentagon actually paid for a study to look at the Drake equation and, and to reconsider the potential statistics if whether or not it's either more likely or less likely. The reality is we do. We live in an incomprehensibly large universe. And in fact, right now a lot of astrophysicists have surmised that There are over 200 sextillion stars in the observable universe. Now, what is a sextillion? I don't know, but it's been estimated that there are. To put this in more common parlance, there's been. It's been estimated that there are more stars in the visible universe than there are grains of sand in all the beaches of all the world. Right. And that's just the observable universe limited by, by the horizon of light reaching our planet. And a lot of scientists now speculate the universe could be at least 10 times actually larger than that. Right. So 40 billion light years from end to end, and that's just the visible universe. So it is a comprehensively large space. But I've like to remind people, if you've ever taken. Oh, I don't Know, maybe high school chemistry. AvoGadro's number, right. 1 times or 6.82 times 10 to the negative 23rd or something like that. The reality is, if you were to compare the size of a quark to the size of a human, that's roughly plus or minus the same order of magnitude, if you will, as comparing a human being to the size of the known universe, right? That's, it's, it's. We have an equal amount of space in scale inside every single human being. And we as human, human beings really can are we can only interact with one or two orders of magnitude up or down. Otherwise the universe is simply too big or too small. We'll never be able to actually interact with it directly. And yet that is where most of reality actually exists. So if you were to consider, for example, you asked a question about the vastness of space. You know, the old models of physics dictate that there is this speed limit in the universe called the speed of light. And how fast is that? It's roughly 186,000 miles per second, or roughly seven and a half times around our planet in one second. So it's very, very fast. And yet because the universe is so incomprehensibly large, it still takes 40 billion years for a photon of light to go from one end to the other. Right? But we're now realizing, with the understanding of the theory of relativity introduced by Einstein and of course in the 1930s, the introduction of quantum physics, that there may be some loopholes in, in the laws of physics and not necessarily in the speed of light, but in, in the notion of space itself. Now, this is going to get kind of weird really quickly, but scientists now realize and, and you can look at other experiments involving quantum entanglement, that space, the way we experience space three dimensionally and has been kind of this empty vacuum of nothingness in reality is full of stuff. And it's also a bit more like, like Swiss cheese, there's holes in it. And if you want proof that these holes exist, one only has to look at a black hole. There's a lot of studies being done right now. A lot of money is being put into studying black holes where matter goes in but never comes out.
- [10:41]
A
Right.
- [10:42]
B
And it may be that the gravity itself is, is so severe in these localized regions we call black holes that space and time actually folds in on itself. And that there are ways where you can traverse vast distances within our cosmos without really going very far at all. These, these are, these concepts are called wormholes. And believe it or not. Once again, your taxpayer dollars paid for extensive studies back in the 2011 time frame at the Pentagon, at the CIA and some renowned academic institutions that actually was very seriously considering the viability of wormholes and the ability to engineer, if you will, space and time.
- [11:27]
A
Okay, now I'm under the impression that to tear a fabric in space time, open up and stabilize a wormhole. I don't know if anybody remembers Contact that Jodie Foster movie. It's like for the average person, it seems like they opened up a wormhole and you watch her travel through. I know this is rudimentary and embarrassing, but nevertheless, I was under the impression that to do such a thing you would need so much energy that it you couldn't comprehend. Harnessing that much power. Where would a civilization get that kind of energy? It's a like an antimatter conversation. It's far beyond the energy of a star. I would anticipate. Like, how do you even get the technology to open up a hole in space time and hold it stable to travel through?
- [12:19]
B
Yeah, great question. Well, it turns out you don't really have to create a hole to, to warp space time. In fact, there's two ways to warp space time that conventional physics has allowed us to, to, to understand. And that is in part thanks to Einstein's equation E equals MC squared or energy equals mass times the speed of light squared. And so there's two fundamental ways to warp space time. One is with a lot of mass. Take this, take this coffee cup for example. With enough mass, you can warp in space time. And if you want proof of that, one only has to look. Now our modern technology into GPS satellites. There are atomic clocks, atomic cesium clocks on board these GPS satellites that we all take for granted when we're kind of punching in our, you know, something in our smartphone to go shopping. The reality is those atomic cesium clocks are exactly the same. They run at precisely at the same rate as the atomic cesium clocks. Here at the ground station we noticed something the Air Force did very early on during the days of gps, that there is this phenomenon called atomic drift. And because the, the mass of the Earth is, is stronger on the surface than the force of gravity, if you will the effect of gravity than it is in a mid Earth or higher orbit, that the clocks on these GPS satellites actually run at a different rate. Now how is that possible if they're running at exactly the same way because of atomic decay? How is it that these, the, the further away you go from Earth, there's a larger delta. There's a larger difference in the way these clocks are running. And that is because of the fact that Earth is a massive object and it is actually exercising a perturbance on space time. And the heavier go like a star. You just mentioned a star. Our sun, for example, warps space time. And the fact that we orbit around the sun in the way we do is actually part of that relationship. Now, the other way to warp space time is with a lot of energy. And so if you want to really compare the relationship between mass and energy, this is not an exact comparison, but. But you could kind of consider mass, you could mass as being like a chunk of ice and energy as being steam. They're both fundamentally water, but they're in two different energetic states. So it turns out that with mass, like the Earth or the sun or even a black hole, you can warp space time and the same thing with a lot of energy. But to your point, you're right, it turns out to be a lot of energy. The question is, is there once again, a loophole in that? Is there a way to cheat that? And that is if you have specific types of material with a lot of energy, is there a way to create a localized portion, if you will, a bubble around a localized area where space time is fundamentally different? The way you experience space time inside the bubble is not the same that everybody else experiences space time outside the bubble, very much like we talk about the satellites, the global positioning satellites, that you can experience space time at a localized area differently. And we have seen this in many, many different scientific models. So it's not really science fiction, it's just science fact. And really the question is, how much energy do we need? Do you remember? Perhaps, maybe. Oh, it's been a while now. I'm kind of old, so I tell people this is gray, not blonde, right? But, well, you look great with it.
- [15:54]
A
I just look hair color, man.
- [15:57]
B
This is my patina. But if you remember, there was an announcement at the cern, the Large Hadron Collider, some years ago that they were at the level now where they were going to potentially start manufacturing these, these the notion of M micro black holes in the laboratory. And a lot of people were very concerned. They thought that they were going to get, you know, sucked into this black hole, destroy the Earth and whatnot. That's not really what. What they were referring to. What they're referring to is that the energy levels now at the CERN are sufficient enough where theoretically we can start creating our own black holes in the Laboratory. These, these, these micro or nano black holes. Now they're not very big and they don't last very long, but it is now theoretically possible to create these right here on Earth in with our own technology. And if that's the case, then it's no longer really a scientific challenge to say we can bend space time and create these wormholes. Because if we can do that in a laboratory at a very small scale, then it's really just a technology issue at this point. It's not a physics issue, it's now a technology issue. How do we scale up this, this little tiny black hole into something a little bit bigger that you know, can be, can be more sufficiently controlled and engineered?
- [17:15]
A
Okay, so many questions I want to focus on, on this one. Another barrier to entry with regard to belief for me. So I'm just trying to knock these things out here. So you've got a species that can, has the technology, the energy, all of the above, to manipulate the fabric of space time. This is what the physicists always say, well what the heck do they want with us? Why do they care? Well, they could just squash us like a bug. Doesn't make any sense. I've heard Neil DeGrasse Tyson say that for 20 years and yet, you know, you're talking about a fricking craft that's going, that's defying nevertheless is not human. Right? So what, what then? Why, what do they. You don't want us to blow up our own little planet? Why do you care? Why would anybody care if we nuked ourselves? There's a gazillion six seventeenth ever however many species butchering this. There's a seventeenth or whatever you said, number of species in the world. Why do they care about us? They can access any planet they want. They can fold space time. Why are they here? Like why, what would be the logic? Can anybody even positive guess as to why we'd be visited under that pretense?
- [18:34]
B
Sure, yeah, there's been a lot of discussion about that actually in the US government, believe it or not. And one, first of all, I think let's back up just for a moment because everybody assumes that they're from outer space. And I've always tried to encourage people to think things maybe a little bit differently because outer space is certainly an option. But they could be from inner space or frankly the space in between. There's lots of different possibilities. For example, these things could have been here for a very long time and been from under the ocean. And we're now at a point now technologically we're being able to interact with, with, with them, but they might not be from really way out there. They may be as natural to Earth as we are, quite frankly. So these are things we have to consider and, and leave all these options on the table. But with that said, let's kind of go back to, to your, your question here. Let's just presume or assume for just one moment they are from out there. Wherever you know, there is. You know, it's the same reason why we go to Africa and we go to the Serengeti and we fly in a helicopter and we're, you know, we're tracking the wildebeest and you might have somebody there shoot a dart and tranquilize one. Imagine from the perspective of that wildebeest, right? It's just sitting there with its buddies and just kind of drinking water. And all of a sudden this thing comes from the air making all sorts of whirring noise. And all of a sudden now you get sleepy, you lay down and the things are now all over you and they're touching you and they're drawing your blood. You know, maybe they're testing for migrational patterns and health of the flock, but all you know is a wildebeest. All of a sudden you wake up, you're kind of groggy, scared like hell, and you kind of wander over to the. Hold him like, Jim, you're not going to believe this, man. The thing came out down all, you know, now all of a sudden things are touching me and, and now my butt hurts. What the hell, right? So it's, it's, it could be something as simple as that. It could also be something where. I'm sorry, I don't mean to.
- [20:18]
A
I said it first, I said it first. I said I, I pulled the anal probe card first. You're free to go.
- [20:26]
B
But it could also be something even, even perhaps more profound. You know, we are at the point now as a civil understand the connection between energy and mass and warping of space, time. So imagine you were a cosmic neighbor of Earth, right? And you watch these funny little monkeys kind of evolve and they go from, you know, pruning each other to now creating these rudimentary tools and all of a sudden fire and. Oh, that's interesting. And also, you know, the monkeys tend to be very violent, so they fight each other all the time, right? And you kind of sit back and watch how these, these, these little monkeys kind of evolve and progress. And all of a sudden, now all of a sudden they realize that this thing, this thing called steam. If you convert water into steam, all of a sudden now you have a, you can create an engine. And that led to the industrial age, right? And that took, you know, how many millions of years of human evolution to finally figure that out. And then all of a sudden, just maybe a thousand years after that, we discovered that if you actually not just separate the molecules, but break the molecule apart, right, in an exothermic reaction, you can get a magnum a magnitude great of energy release, right? Like, like dynamite or gunpowder. All of a sudden now, wow, now you've got really a lot of energy. And then all of a sudden it takes a few more years after that and we realize that if we actually go lower, smaller in scale and we break apart an atom, we have even more energy to be released, right? And all of a sudden now you sitting back in your cosmic, you know, lazy boy chair, watching humans evolve, realize that human beings are very quickly evolving to the point where we might be able to manipulate space, time. And now cosmic distance is no longer an issue for us, right? So now as a cosmic neighborhood, you've watched these monkeys kind of evolve and tear each other apart in all sorts of gruesome ways. What happens now when those little monkeys figure out a way to get off their own planet, right? And now they're not stuck on that rock now, now they have the ability to come visit you, right? This is what I call the, the gorilla in the zoo analogy. Everybody goes to the zoo and they might see the silverback gorilla and eating a banana, how cute. And you know, pruning each other. But, but what happens when all of a sudden the zookeeper, a key to the cage, the enclosure is, is, is left behind by mistake. And now all of a sudden that gorilla is picking up that key and he doesn't quite yet understand what it is or how it works, but he's beginning to realize there's a relationship between the key and the gate that's keeping them inside their enclosure. What happens when the, the day that the gorilla figures out how to get out of the cage, well, guess what, you better grab little Johnny's arm because now you got Harambe on the loose, right? You have an 800 pound silverback gorilla that, you know, could be very violent. And so is it possible that they're monitoring us specifically just to find out, hey, you know, how far along in evolution have the monkeys really come?
- [23:23]
A
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- [25:29]
B
Yeah, and again, great point. You know, some people ascribe to this theory, what they call the gift theory. I don't personally subscribe to that. You know, I can't prove it's not correct, but some people will speculate, well, maybe they were left here on, on purpose. I, I don't necessarily feel that way, but it turns out that if you were to ask the, the scientists that were working with us at a tip and offset before that, they'll tell you that some of the crashes may have been honestly just dumb luck and, and, and by accident. So what do I mean by that? The bubble that is, as it was explained to me, that is get, is created around these craft in order to allow them to, to experience space time a little bit differently, is very susceptible to electromagnetic pulses. And it's like a balloon. And an EMP is like a needle to a balloon, and you can pop that bubble very quickly and quite easily. And so the speculation is that the original Roswell crash wasn't even a crash that was necessarily deliberate. We were testing atomic capabilities, which I can't probably go into a lot of detail here, even though it was, you know, back in the 40s and that there were some UAP that were very interested in what we were doing, and we knocked him out of the sky by mistake. Didn't even realize that, you know, that was kind of the Achilles heel to, to these bubbles. And so that was the, the principal theory that that was going around the, the Pentagon at the time.
- [26:59]
A
If we had the ability to knock these things out of the sky, why wouldn't they just wipe us out?
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B
Well, because that's, that's a human trait, isn't it? You know, violence and aggression tends to be fundamentally a human thing. When you look at intent, when a shark bites a surfer, the shark isn't trying to hurt the surfer. The, the shark doesn't even know it's a surfer. He's just hungry and he just wants to eat. And so I, I'm hungry and I want to fill my stomach. Right?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Humans and, and a few of the great apes are, are one of the few creatures on this planet that actually have intent and motivation beyond just survival. We do bad things to each other sometimes simply because we want to. And, and that in itself, you know, makes us sometimes a very complicated species. Now we're assuming that these things, wherever they're from and whatever they are, have the same motivations as we do. But the reality is, if we evolve long enough, maybe those, those attributes that we have aren't really, really part of our, our DNA anymore. Perhaps it's like talking to artificial intelligence. AI doesn't have intent AI just, you know, information in, information out. It is intelligent, but it's not a human intelligence. Right. It affects certain things that we have, that we have evolved to have psychologically and whatnot. So we have to be careful to assign anthropomorphic values indiscriminately onto something that may very well not be human, like, at all. And so we have to caution ourselves and avoid that temptation of ascribing the same type of human motivations that we have that we relate to. Look, and it's hard to do. Because, look, I live here in the middle of Wyoming, and I have five German shepherds. And guess what? They all have human names. And guess what? I treat them all like humans, right? No. How's my little baby doing? And you, are you hungry today and come sleep in the bed with dad, you know, and all that stuff. But the reality is they're not human. They're. They are. They are dogs. They are a completely fundamentally different species. Now, I am assuming that they have a lot of human traits because I'm human, and that is the only way I know how to deal with something as a human. Right? But we have to avoid that temptation when we are, you know, we're not talking about German shepherds in this case. We're talking about something that truly may fundamentally not be human at all. May not even have the. The same evolution, if you will, trajectory that we had. It could be something. It could be something that has been engineered. Right? Another option is that the things could be. Have a hive mind. Very much like ants in a colony or bees in a colony, right? There's very specific functions that are performed by certain ants. Some are guard ants, some are queens, and some are drones. And, you know, they perform a very specific task. So these are a lot of the things that were being considered at the time by a lot of the doctors and psychologists and whatnot that we worked with.
- [30:00]
A
I want to back up for a second. I've heard people say interdimensional, and you just said inner space. I get like, hey, maybe Atlantis was real and this species went to the bottom of the oce and we. Again, these are all so silly, but we all saw Jim Cameron's movie the Abyss, and so really they're living down there, and we don't even know what's down there. And I can't remember the number. I think you guys actually mentioned it in the documentary of how little we've actually mapped our own ocean floor. We don't know what's down there. Okay, I could get on board with that one. They've come from space. They've warped space time. Okay, I can get on board with that one. What is inner space? How. What does interdimensional even mean? Is that like some sort of suggestion that they're coming from another our universe? What does that mean?
- [30:45]
B
Well, you know, not necessarily. So let me give, if I can, to kind of distill this down into something that might be a little bit more easy to. To consume the reality. So I mentioned I live here in Wyoming, and you can come out on, on any particular night and gaze upon the heavens and see just a, you know, a beautiful, beautiful night sky, completely un occluded. Now if you were to take, take technology like, oh, I don't know, a radio telescope or an infrared telescope and point at the same part of the sky that you were looking at with your naked eye, you would see a completely different reality. You would see large nebulas and magellanic clouds and things that in plasma that the human eye just simply can't perceive. In fact, if you look at the five fundamental ways in which we perceive the universe, which there's only five, right? And if you can't touch it, taste it, hear it, smell it, etc. We have no idea it's there. But if you had, for example, let's go back to the bumblebee, right? If you had bumblebee vision and you were to look at a flower, you would see a completely different reality because they view the universe in ultraviolet spectrum beyond our ability to perceive, right? Or if you were a snake and you could see in thermal vision, you see heat, right, and perceive heat. The human eye, it only picks up. Now think about this. 0.0035% of the entire electromagnetic spectrum spectrum. In fact, most of the universe we cannot perceive directly. It lies beyond our ability to directly perceive it. We need technology. And yet that is really where most of the universe lies. Beyond our spectrums of visible light, they might lie in X ray or gamma or radio or microwave or, you know, all sorts of other areas. And so we are, you know, we say interdimensional. It might not be something as, as, you know, exotic as, as another universe. It doesn't have to be. It can be part of this universe, but part of this universe that we simply can't per. And we hear this all the time with things such as dark energy and dark matter. Most of the universe lies in this invisible realm, realm that even today, with today's technology, we know it's there, but we can't perceive it. And yet that's where most of the stuff, if you will, of, of our reality in the universe actually lies.
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A
Okay, I get it. I see exactly what you're saying. And when I've listened to talks on string theory, aren't there like 11 dimensions or something that are membrane?
- [33:08]
B
You're referring to M theory, Membrane theory and parts, which is part of string theory. Some have speculated up to 22 dimensions. Some of them say they're very small and wrapped with each other. Of course, a lot of that there's A lot of speculation involved in that. But we do know that, you know, through. If you were to look at, for example, going back to quantum entanglement, you know, that is something that. That we believe may be going in and out of a different reality. Same, in fact, with the electron. You know, when you and I went to school, we learned that electrons orbit the nucleus of an atom, but the reality is they don't. In fact, they now realize that the electron is more like the electron cloud. It's both everywhere and nowhere all at the same time. And some. Some scientists have speculated the electron is actually so small that it's actually able to zip in and out of the very fabric of our. Of our universe, and it's disappearing and reappearing trillions upon trillions of times per second. So it's not really that far out to speculate on whether or not interdimensional realities exist, because we can detect them to some degree already.
- [34:18]
A
Oh, my God. Okay, so when I was watching the documentary the Age of Disclosure, there was talk about how certain people high up in the government wanted to shut this conversation down because of religion. And I'm not trying to demonize religion. Religion has been demonized enough. But, you know, and then you famously, Tucker, went on Joe Rogan and was like, I think they're demons. How much of that concern do you think has kept this silent? The concern that it will destroy religion as we know it?
- [34:55]
B
Yeah, that's, again, great, great point. And, you know, there are certainly individuals out there that are very, very threatened by the notion of, you know, humans not necessarily being exclusive, you know, in. In the eyes of God. I. I can understand that. I do that a lot of doctrine basically stipulates that human beings are the epitome of God's creation. You know, I. I think at the end of the day, it's the notion of. Of. Of these things doesn't really challenge the notion of God. It might challenge mankind's notion of God.
- [35:34]
A
Right.
- [35:35]
B
But I don't think it actually challenges God itself. There have been examples in the past. For example, let's take Galileo, Galilee, when he first proposed his heliocentric model of our solar system. Up until that point, the church was very convinced that Earth was the center of our solar system and everything orbited around Earth. Earth. And Galileo, through his observations with his telescope, proposed alternatively and said, no, actually, we orbit around the sun. And the church was so upset by that that they actually threatened to burn him at the stake. And he was forced to recant, even though he was right. And in fact, they, the members of the Church, even refused to look through the very telescope that Galileo could prove his point because it was a threat to, to what their understanding of what God should and should not be. But the reality is now that we look back, we say, oh, well, that's awfully silly, if anything. Realizing that the Earth is just a small little obscure dot floating around an obscure sun, floating around an obscure part of a galaxy floating, you know, amongst many, many other galaxies, I think gives people a greater appreciation of the supernatural and the notion of God. It doesn't, it doesn't put limitations. And so really the issue you're referring to is really referring to an insecurity that is inherent in our species. And I, I think that is really the, the problem where we have the rub between religion and, and this topic or even science. You know, I often say that the reason why science and religion really don't see eye to eye is because they're both trying to answer two different questions. Science is trying to explain how, where religion is trying to explain why. And they're two fundamentally different questions. And I think maybe the same holds true with this topic that, this topic, you know, the way, depending the way we're raised, maybe culturally or religiously or philosophically and theologically and even psychologically, right, we like to envision we are the apex species on this planet. It. But the reality is, is that, you know, Mother Nature and, and God has a vote and you know, outvotes us a lot of times. And so we, we need to remain humble and, and have humility and, and, and stop trying to put Mother Nature and God in a little box that, you know, fits our own narrative. Because the one thing we're usually right about is that we're usually wrong at first, right? We're usually wrong in these, these, these type of, of, of assumptions. And so I know it can be hard for some people. You know, I, I was raised both Jewish and Catholic and then I spent a lot of time in the Middle east where very close friends of mine were Muslim and very familiar with, with, with the different religions and cultures. I lived in Asia where, where Buddhism was, was, was quite prevalent and even read from the Hindu script in the Bhagavad Gita. So, you know, I, I understand why religion might have a, There might be some sort of apprehension or fear because in some cases it counters the very narrative that, that an organization is trying to, to promote. But let's not forget that religions are really at the end of the day, they're religions are comprised of people and people make mistakes and people are wrong a lot of times. Right? And again, this should, we shouldn't confuse the idea of religion with the idea of God because religion is nothing more than an organization of people trying to interpret what God is. It's not necessarily God. And so I do not think personally for me, and I'm a very spiritual person, I don't wear my religion on my sleeve, but I'm deeply spiritual. And, and I don't have, I don't have a problem with, with the topic of UAPs or, or other life in our cosmos contradicting my, my idea of God. Look, if you want to know if life exists, just look on this plane planet. Life is everywhere. Life is abundant. Every time we try to, to, to put mother nature in a nice, like I said, little shoebox, she always wiggles her way out. I remember a time when I was in college, I was told that all life is fundamentally derived from the process of photosynthesis. But that's not true. In fact, if you go out to the deep oceans where these, these things called black smokers are, there are creatures, sea creatures that live in the depths of our oceans that survive of a process called chemosynthesis. Right? So, so it's, it's what defines life. You know, for a while we thought that all life had to have DNA, but it turns out, you know, there's potentially other life forms like viruses that don't have any DNA. They have rna. There are people say, well, you have to be in a Goldilocks area where you have to have oxygen and oxygen is the fundamental building block for life. Well, that's not true either. You know, when I was in, in the medical program at University of Miami, I did a lot of research on a bacteria called Clostridium botulinum, better known as botulism, which is actually an anaerobic bacteria. It will actually, it's a micro, microbial body that will die in the presence of oxygen. So we're always recalibrating and relearning what it means, you know, to, to, to, to be alive and to be human and, and, and maybe even what, and who God is.
- [40:49]
A
You know, I tend to lean far more in the direction that you do. Like I believe in God. I don't subscribe personally to something organized and this is a bit of a sidebar, but I remember watching a video on the dual slit experiment. And for anybody who isn't familiar with that, I strongly Recommend Watch a 5 minute video. It's going to blow your mind but long story short, it basically provides some pretty compelling evidence that there are infinite parallel universes. And I remember. Cause for years of my life, you watch people suffer and die, suffer and die, suffer and die. And I remember thinking, where is God when everybody's suffering and dying? What about that baby that was in the world for three days and suffered and died? It's like, oh, pain brings understanding and this and that and the other. But. And I struggled with that right up until I thought, hey, maybe that little baby is leading infinite lives and it's the Queen of England. And then the baby is. You know, who knows? But it brought me some sort of peace that I can't even comprehend the purpose of this. It's so multifaceted. And the more we understand the complexities of the universe, the closer I actually do feel to God. But I can. When I wonder why the government is not just coming out and like, okay, guys, here's what we have. It.
- [42:16]
B
It.
- [42:17]
A
This kind of makes sense. If you're trying to maintain something like Galileo like you just referenced that. That will be done away with. Arguably, by presenting all of this evidence, you can see why somebody might want to suppress it. But, you know, when I. When I talk to you, I can't believe. No, no offense, Lou. I can't believe they haven't you. So on one hand, you think, all right, Lou's allowed to tell us this much, but if you're telling me this much, you're kind of telling me everything. That's sort of what's strange, right? You're allowed to tell me. Yeah, there's stuff in our fricking atmosphere that is not human. And the Pentagon has acknowledged it.
- [42:58]
B
It.
- [42:59]
A
We don't know what it is. Okay, well, now, haven't you kind of told me everything? What are we holding back on here?
- [43:08]
B
Sure. Well, boy, that's a lot to unpack.
- [43:11]
A
I know. You know, I've thought about this such a long time. You have. Seven years of me wanting to corner you and ask questions coming out right now.
- [43:20]
B
Well, get. Get a glass of wine to me, and I'll open up a lot more.
- [43:24]
A
I live in Wyoming, so I will do that.
- [43:26]
B
I'll have you know, It's. It's interesting when you talk about the. The multiple realities right there. There was this discussion a while back using the. The analogy of Schroden. Schrodinger's cat, which kind of puts this. The. The cat potentially in a box. You don't know if it's dead or alive or it's in this weird Kind of middle space where anything's possible. And so if you're not familiar with the Schrodinger's cat experiments, it's actually more of a thought exercise I would encourage. Encourage you to, and your audience maybe to, to look into it. It's very interesting. But as far as what the government wants me to say and doesn't want me to say, I will tell you. I've gotten into a lot of trouble. I've had a lot of things. I've had a lot of death threats. I've had at one time, I was warned several times that the elements within the government, not the government, whole government, because, you know, governments, like religions are made of people and some are good and some are not so good. So I don't hold the government necessarily accountable. But there were elements in the government that were extremely upset with me and some of my colleagues and, and did try to come after us at first. They started with, you know, what we call administrative terrorism. Trying to, to get my security clearance in trouble or trying to accuse me of xyz, which they couldn't do. What just. It wasn't true and they knew it. And then they started kind of going a little bit more in the intimidation. One of my colleagues had had some drones flown over his house and then forced entry into his house. Obviously a very clear message that, that they wanted him to shut up. I. My approach has been very careful. I do not discuss anything that's classified and I do not discuss anything that could compromise ongoing capabilities of our nation. And therein lies the third real issue that you're talking about. If I were to just come out and say everything I knew, yeah, I'd be in a lot of trouble and I'd probably, you know, wind up being sued some. Somewhere.
- [45:20]
A
Okay.
- [45:21]
B
And of course that's always a possibility is why I have five German Shepherds and I'm heavily armed. Unfortunately, it's just a reality of life that I. That I have to deal with. But with that said, I've made it very clear to the government that I'm not their enemy. I'm a patriot. I still will consult with the US Government when asked. I love my country and what I want to do is actually be part of the solution, not the problem. The problem is we spent 80 years lying to the American people and we've backed ourselves into a corner where now the government has lost a lot of credibility. So what I want to do is help the government have this conversation in a meaningful way. But at the same time, look, the reality is and this is a hypothetical, so let me, let me foot stomp this. But you can probably read between the lines. If, if hypothetically the US Government had succeeded in possibly reverse engineering and exploiting some of these crashes to maybe at some degree replicate some of the observations we're seeing and performance, you wouldn't really want to advertise that. You wouldn't want your adversaries like Russia or China or North Korea or Iran to know that you've succeeded in doing that. Right. Because that is, you know, it would be considered a crown jewel. And so, and I can understand that. And certainly I wouldn't want that to happen. Happen. So having a conversation like this, I think is okay if I were to come out and start going into potentially opining about specifics and maybe what we have and what we don't have, that's a problem. That's problem. Because then what we're doing is we're broadcasting both our strengths, our capabilities and our vulnerabilities. And that's, that's, that's a no, no, that's, that's no bueno in the world of national security. And so that is why you'll always see me tread very carefully. I was told very specifically, I can never talk about crash retrievals. I still am obligated to go through the Pentagon whenever I write a book or something to that effect. They have to review every word of it. And they have the authority to redact things, and they did. In that first book you read Imminent, you'll notice that there's redactions. And what I wanted to do was be completely transparent with the American public. So I left the redactions in. And you can see line by line where the government blacked it out and they don't want you to see it. And that's fine. I'm fine with that. This is a marathon. It's not a sprint. You know, we, we want disclosure, but we also are trying to avoid the, the idea of what we call catastrophic disclosure. We don't want to break the system that we're trying to fix. You know, and it's a bit, if you want a kind of another poor analogy, I often liken it to trying to, to, to fix your car, right? Trying to fix the water pump in your car because the engine's overheating. The problem is you can't afford to stop and you have to change the water pump while you're driving down the highway at 75 miles an hour. Right? So it's, it's not, it's not Easy. It's, it's a challenge. And, and I'm very sympathetic to that. And that is why you will see me continuing always to support the government, our government. Because, you know, I am a patriot. At the end of the day, I don't want to break anything.
- [48:24]
A
We've kicked off 2026 and I'm all about bold action. Taking the idea that you've been nurturing and turning it into reality. Whether it's launching your own fitness apparel line, wellness supplements, or just a passion project, don't let it gather dust, guys. This is your year to build something epic. And you got a tool like Shopify there. And there's no excuses. They give you everything you need to sell online and in person. Hundreds of stunning customizable templates to match your brand. Built in AI tools that write killer product descriptions, generate headlines, and even edit photos in seconds. I mean, marketing is seamless. You can create emails and social campaigns that meet customers where they scroll. And as you scale, Shopify grows with you handling more orders, new markets, all from one intuitive dashboard. Millions of entrepreneurs, from breakout brands to solo creators, have made the leap. And I know the power of owning your vision, guys. So get started today and make this your breakthrough year in 2026. Stop waiting and start selling with Shopify so you can sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com Jillian. Just go to shopify.com Jillian. That's shopify.com Jillian and hear your first this new year with Shopify by your side. Jillian here. I get it. Most of us just sort of resign ourselves to these utilitarian bras and undies that dig in and stretch out and they lose shape. Why? I mean, I've tried countless brands and nothing holds up like Skim's cotton jersey full briefs. The fabric is awesome. It's soft, it's supportive, it's incredibly resilient. Wash after wash, Skim still looks and feels brand new. There's no rolling down, no stretching out. They're incredibly comfortable. They fit friggin perfectly under any type of clothing so you don't get horrible panty lines. Look, Valentine's Day. It's around the corner. So treat yourself or your loved one to something that is truly better. Skims is just designed differently quality fabrics and construction. Soft, seamless and supportive. You feel secure, lifted, which is, I mean, at 50, that's a good thing and still totally natural. So you can shop my favorite bras and underwear@skims.com and after you place your order Be sure to let them know that I sent you. Just select podcast in the survey and please be sure to select my show in the dropdown menu that follows. And if you're looking for the perfect gift for your valentine or for yourself, guys, the Skims Valentine's shop is now open. Okay. The Legacy Program. So in the age of disclosure, you guys talk about the fact that, you know, you see senators, there's freaking Marco Rubio, when he was a senator, saying like, I, you know, we're trying to get the information, like we're concerned about this stuff. They don't tell the President, they don't tell the dni because these are temporary employees. Who is the Legacy Program? How deep in the government is this and what happens if somebody retires from the Legacy Program? And how does somebody get reinitiated? 80 years, you got numerous generations over the course of 80 years. You were recruited. Are you. But, but you're not part of the Legacy Program. You're part of a tip like, how is your part in the government functioning separately from the Legacy Program of the government that's been doing this for 80 years?
- [52:02]
B
Yeah, well, you know, Jillian, this is, this is the rub I have. You know, it, it, there's a problem when you have elements within our government that are not answering to or not being held accountable by the authorities. They are supposed to be, be, be be administered under, for example, Congress, right, And a gang of six or perhaps the oversight committees, like, like you said, Marco Rubio, right, He was chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, just like Harry Reid was at one time the former ATIP sponsor. The President, you know, the head of the executive branch. When they are not being briefed, then that's a problem. And I'll give you case in point. There was an article that just came out this morning, believe it or not, and I think it was on Daily Mail where just some amateur was out by Area 51 hiking, and he pointed his camera up and he, he recorded a triangular craft. Now, it was not a B2 bomber. It wasn't the Valkyrie. It was definitely a triangular shaped craft. And the question is, well, if that technology is real, and certainly there's a video of it, doesn't look like it was faked. And he heard certain call signs being used, trying to, you know, for operations, security reasons, to try to obscure what, what, what, what was going on, the flight test. You know, you would think that members of Congress have been briefed for the President. The reality is, I bet you if you go to any member of Congress right Now and say, do you know what that is? They're going to say, no. And that is a problem. That is a problem because that means someone then in the government is making a unilateral decision to go around the normal channels of government. And that, to me, is very dangerous, especially in a democracy. You know, my. My father was a participant in the Bay of Pigs invasion in Cuba. My family's Cuban. We are. We are in exile from Cuba. We know what tyranny is about. And my father told me a long time ago, actually, when I asked him, right. Right before he died, he passed away on Father's Day several years ago, we had a chance to take a road trip together. And I asked my father, and I, almost flippantly, I said, hey, dad, what do you think is the greatest threat to humanity? And, you know, I thought he was going to say maybe some sort of pandemic or terrorism, whatnot. He looked at me and he said, son, it's corruption. When I said corruption, like, like financial corruption, religious corruption, you know, moral corruption, he said, all of it. He said, corruption is the act of giving away one of your values in exchange for something else. Right. And once you do that, you start, especially in a government, you begin to erode and chip away at the very foundations of what freedom and democracy. Democracy is. And at that point, it's a very slippery slope to. To total tyranny. And so this is why I. I am motivated to do what I do. I. It's. I. I'm doing what I. I'm doing because I actually love my government. I love my country. I. I am very, very patriotic, and I'm. I'm willing to give everything to. To do that. But I do not think it's right for somebody in the government to. On behalf of the American people, on behalf of the president, on behalf of the oversight committees, and, And. And not be held accountable. That's. That's not freedom. That's not democracy. Right. That. That is something else. And that is something I've sworn from day one to defend against. You know, from all I look at when I took this oath to. To defend my country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. When I. When I left the government, I wasn't relieved of that oath. They didn't say, okay, Lou, guess what? You don't have to do that anymore. You know, I'm still held to that. That. And so that is what. That is what motivates me to do what I do. And maybe it's one of the reasons, and I can only speculate Maybe. Why, you know, you haven't found me floating in the, the Potomac river with, you know, a pink tutu and wearing combat boots. You know, it, it's, it. I suspect that there's enough people out there that sympathize with myself and some of my colleagues on how we feel.
- [55:53]
A
You talk about corruption and in my line of work, it's omnipresent when it comes to health care. You know, big food, big ag, big pharma, big insurance, blah, blah, blah.
- [56:03]
B
Absolutely.
- [56:03]
A
Everybody knows that.
- [56:05]
B
Absolutely.
- [56:05]
A
I remember you were trying to get legislation passed. Oh, hold on, let me back up before I jump to this because this will be confusing. I'm leaving parts out. Crash retrievals, should they exist, are arguably now in the hands of private industry like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, the military defense guys. Military industrial complex. Why do they have it and our government doesn't have it?
- [56:39]
B
Yeah, that's again, a problem. There was actually an effort some time ago. I actually submitted it as a matter of record to Congress where Lockheed Martin had told some of my colleagues directly this was the head of John, you know, Jim Rider and his big guys that said, look, you know, we, we don't want this material anymore. We've reached the point where we, we don't know anymore what we can do with it and we don't want to be responsible for it. What happened in the, back in the 50s and late 40s and so on, and there was material provided to some of these defense contractors to look at. And by the way, therein lies a big issue we can talk about in a minute. It. And they had it. And you know, let's not forget that Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex. Right, because they're motivated by money and profit. They have shareholders. Right. They are a business, make no mistake. Right, they are, and their business is warfare. So the military industrial complex, because they had the expertise, were given access to material and to report back. But what happens in the government, like any other bureaucracy, people leave, people change jobs, people retire. And anybody who was part of that government part, that, that, that effort is long gone. Meanwhile, you know, these companies still have the material. And so Lockheed actually wanted to, to give up this material back to the United States government to, to hold on to, they said, look, at this point it's kind of a liability, it's expensive to keep the lights on as far as we can with, with, with the research and analysis. So therein lies, you know, part of, part of the problem. You know, we've incentivized warfare as a profiteering thing. And whenever you have money involved, just like the healthcare right. System, you're gonna have greed and you're gonna have corruption. And so this is something that we really have to root out. This is why I, to me, it's egregious that, you know, we don't, we don't take this more seriously. We now know, look at perfect case in point, people say, oh, well, this legacy program that existed, Lou, you know, and a tip, you know, how, how can this legacy program last for so long and no one know? Well, nobody knew about a tip, you know, I mean, no one knew we were around doing what we were doing. We, we kept that secret pretty, you know, for a long time. Pretty well, not until the New York Times blew the story. So it's really not that hard to keep secrets. When you work in the intelligence community. There's a lot of things American people have no idea that we are involved with or have been involved with and may never know we're involved with because, you know, in the intelligence community, we're pretty good at keeping secrets. It doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it wrong. You know what my issue is? When you have, there's reasons to have secrets, but I think secrets are very much like, you know, a lot of people in the government think secrets are like fine wine, where the longer you keep them, the better they get. I don't think so. I think secrets, I've always said, are like, like vegetables in your refrigerator. And if you keep them them too long, they're going to start to rot and stink and you've got a big cleanup on your hand, right? A big mess on your hands you're going to have to clean up. Secrets are only there to protect really your sources and methods and give you the flexibility to continue doing what you do, which is protecting the American people. There's no reason why something should ever be kept secret simply because something is embarrassing or you did something wrong, some sort of malfeasance or worse, you know, because there's something going on that we can't explain. I, I, I, I reject that notion. I think it's an abuse of power. I think it's an abuse of authority for people to make decisions, to classify things simply because they think the American people can't handle it. You know, I, I, I don't subscribe to that, and maybe they can't, but that's, that's not my decision to make. You know, that's a you decision, not a me decision.
- [60:26]
A
Right.
- [60:27]
B
I think every American has the Right. To. Look, we, we, we have honest conversations all the time that North Korea has developed nuclear missiles. You know, they're, they're, they're no dong and Topo Dong 2 missiles and that they have appointed on the west coast of America. Right. We trust our people to know that information. And it doesn't cause panic. It might cause a little concern once in a while, but it doesn't cause mass panic and chaos that, that our, our government once thought having the conversation about UFOs with the American people would, would, would, would precipitate that reality. Never happened. Look, we're having this conversation right now and people aren't making runs on the bank. They're paying their cell phone bills are still going to soccer practice and PTA meetings. Right? And so this is why I always say I think America can handle the truth and America deserves the truth.
- [61:14]
A
You, you talked about an inability to FOIA to do a Freedom of Information act about this, in part because private industry has the tech. You can't it FOIA them. And there was something in the documentary about how you were. This is where I was trying to go with this. You were trying to get legislation passed that private industry would have to hand all of the tech and the information over. And that was in the legislation. And then industry lobbied and did their thing with Congress and then it was pulled from legislation. Am I getting that right?
- [61:53]
B
Right, exactly right. Some folks in the military industrial complex started getting very nervous, and so they lobbied some of the big folks that they donate money to and, and they killed it. You know, and if that's not guilty by association, I don't know it is, right? If that's not evidence that someone doesn't want you to know something.
- [62:12]
A
Right. That was the moment when I was watching the documentary. And I've fought this in my head for such a long time and in all the ways that you and I just discussed, like, how would they get here? How could they harness that kind of energy? All these. Why do they, why would they bother? The minute I was watching that fricking documentary and it was like, well, you know, the private industry, private companies lobbied Congress to pull this legislation out of the bill. I was like, oh my God, this is real. This is, this is so real. Because I see it in my work. I see it all the time and it's filthy dirty and it's heartbreaking. I'm actually working on a book about the catastrophic quartet of those four big lobbies I just mentioned. And there's nine layers of capture loot. It's like truth capture, procedural capture, economic capture, global capture. The average person can't even comprehend the ways in which the system is rigged against them. And when I saw that in the fricking documentary I just was like, well that's it, that's the end of the story. Like a video of a blurry little thing called the Tic Tac. And, and I don't know, I could push back. I could push back. You guys haven't given me any proof. The fact that that was pulled from the legislation for me was the ultimate, ultimate smoking gun. I'll be honest.
- [63:34]
B
Nothing to hide. Then why are you going through extraordinary lengths to hide it?
- [63:38]
A
Right, right.
- [63:40]
B
It doesn't make sense, does it?
- [63:42]
A
No. I want to go back to one more thing. I remember as a, as a kid, I think we'd gotten as a family, we got home from some sort of vacation or a weekend somewhere and I had ordered a pizza, I was a chubby kid and I was sitting on the couch, I turned on the TV and the news came on. And do you. Well you of course are gonna know this. The Arizona lights. And it was a frickin craft the size of like a football field flying over Arizona. Today marks 26 years since the mysterious Phoenix lights appeared over the Valley Valley. And we still don't know what it.
- [64:17]
B
Was, but there are plenty of theories out there. It was the evening of March 13, 1997. People across Arizona, especially here in the Valley, reported seeing a silent miles long V shaped group of lights gliding quietly overhead.
- [64:31]
A
Was it a military mission?
- [64:33]
B
A prank perhaps or visitors from outer space?
- [64:37]
A
The questions and confusion over the sighting.
- [64:39]
B
Have only grown during the prevailing years.
- [64:43]
A
And you've got numerous people witnessing the same thing. And that's I believe, one of the criteria previously before people like yourself came out into the world and started telling regular people like myself all this information. I would listen to guys like Michio Kaku and he's like well you know, some of it is swamp gas and some of some of these sightings are balloons, weather balloons and. But I remember him saying when you've got a group of people who've all seen the same thing or who have some form of evidence, that's something credible that you need to investigate. And I remember as a kid sitting on the couch going there's no way, like we're gonna. What is that? We're gonna get some sort of an explanation. And we never did. And yet it went away. These things just go away. How is it possible that a craft the size of a football Field flew over Arizona and was seen by a dozens of people and it just vanishes. What do you think it is with people like me? No government needed to cover that up. We just all kept cruising, we just all kept going.
- [65:48]
B
Well, the government has been very effective over decades of creating this, this layer of stigma and taboo around the UFO topic. And it's made it almost impossible to have a cogent conversation about it. Because the moment you mentioned the word UFO just even 10 years ago, as a journalist, you'd be relegated to the tabloid, right? You would be laughed at. Anybody who said that they, they saw a UFO or experience it, they'd be mocked and ridiculed. And so it was a very effective mechanism by, by the government to, to really suppress the topic and the discussion of UFOs. You know, if you look at all the Cheesy Bee movies back in the 1950s of people being zapped and you know, Mars attacks, there was a very carefully orchestrated operation that was in play by the US government to, to, to suppress people from wanting to report. And look, I, I tell people all the time, you know, when I grew up as a kid in the 80s, and this sounds horrible, and you know, and I look back and I'm completely ashamed of myself that I thought this was okay behavior, but I had a shirt in high school that I whereas and it, you know, it said on it, kill me for mommy. Right? And, and that was cool. And not everybody agreed. Oh, the Russians were terrible. Red dawn and you know, nuclear war. Now think about that for a minute. Talk about promoting violence, right? And, and, and promoting violence against an enemy who, which you've never met, you have no idea if they're good or bad. And yet, because you've been told over and over and over again, been drilled in your head by academia and by the, you know, the geopolitical machine that communists are bad, which by the way, for the record, I do not subscribe to communism. I don't think it works. I think it's a failed system. But it doesn't mean that people are bad. Right, right. It just means that people subscribe to, to a government that's really, you know, not, not very effective at a lot of things. But it doesn't mean that Russians are bad people. And, but that's what we were, we were taught to think. We were taught to really hate Russians. And it wasn't until after the Berlin Wall came down that we realized, oh, wow, they're, you know what, they're a heck of a lot like us. You know, the government Might kind of suck, but. But they're not bad people, right? And, you know, not out there to try to, you know, kill us and take us over. And they, you know, no, they don't want nuclear war, Right? Like, we. We told ourselves that. That they did. And so governments from time to time have been very, very effective at villainizing and suppressing and controlling narratives and controlling even. Even the mindset of. Of populations. And it's not just the United States. Other countries do it all the time. Look at Iran now. Right? Right now, right? They're going through a revolution potentially. Right? And. And look at the. The extraordinary means Tehran is willing to do to suppress their people from information blackouts. Right? And cutting off Internet and. And in some cases, torture and killing. So this is nothing new. This is something that. That. That a lot of governments have done in the past and unfortunately continue to do. And. And the UFO topic is. Is really no different. The UFO topic is. Is one of. Spent a lot of time, a lot of energy, a lot of money trying to. To. To ridicule specifically so they would have the latitude to actually do what they wanted to do, which was research the topic.
- [69:07]
A
Okay, I want to shift gears for a second because I've often wondered this. Why do you think. Obviously, this is. You know, you can only tell me what you can tell me, and, you know, you can only guess at some of the things I'm about to ask. But why put a craft the size of a football field over Arizona and then vanish again for decades? Like, why not just show up? It feels like the girl you're dating that never ends up sleeping with you. It's like, for God's sake, you know, like, I'm sorry, but that's the analogy. It's like, no, she really likes me. No, this is going nowhere. No, no, no, she's gonna go on this. Like, it Just. What is the game that you think.
- [69:45]
B
These.
- [69:47]
A
Species are playing? Like, why are you scooping up Travis Walton or flying crafts over Arizona and letting yourself be known to, like, a handful of people and then, like, vanish again? What. What is that? That's the part where I'm like, this can't be real.
- [70:05]
B
Well, again, we're. We're ascribing, you know, human attributes to something that may not at all, you know, be human. And so, for example, I'll give you a case in point. If you go to the Chinese, these zoos, you'll notice that in the panda exhibit, because pandas, you know, are on the endangered species, and they're very, very Susceptible to, to stress. The Chinese zookeepers will often put on these big fluffy panda suits and they, they walk into the zoo enclosure and you can actually look this up on, on online. It looks rather silly to us humans, but the Chinese have figured out that if they dress and look like pandas when they're going in to clean the enclosure and feed them during feeding time, that it causes less stress, that it's something familiar, more familiar to the pandas and therefore it lowers the stress level. So it's possible, you know, one of the hypothesis is that they're not, they don't want to spook the herd. Maybe they're coming in just like we do. When we are going back again. Using the African savannah or the Kalahari analogy where we're looking at animals, our purpose is not to scare the herd. We don't want to create a stampede. What we want to do is, is study them. When we go to Antarctica or we go anywhere else and we look at the penguins, I'm sorry, we go to the Arctic region, we'll see the penguins and you know, we try to stay far away from them. We don't want to, we don't want to spook the penguins. We're very, very cautious about that, very careful about that because. Why? Well, because we want to be as least intrusive as possible. That could be one of the motivations why, you know, they're not here or perhaps, you know, hey, look, maybe they're afraid of the monkey, right? Look, if we stick around too much, next thing these monkeys are going to do is not, you know, before they would throw rocks, now they're going to throw nukes, right? So that could also be, be, be a concern as well. There's, there's all sorts of theories and unfortunately, I wish I had an answer for you on that, but unfortunately I, I don't. All we can do is speculate at this point.
- [72:08]
A
If, if they did reveal themselves to us, just freaking landed in Times Square. Like, listen, we're here. We've been here for a while. You know, there's on the pyramids, maybe you've seen it. I like, you know, but I think we had former U. S. President June Jimmy Carter have a sighting. Like I feel like we, this is, you know, this has been going on for centuries. Chill, like, take it easy. We're not going to, going to kill all you guys. Like what would a relationship. What could we presume given, given what we, if we know anything about crash material, if biologics have been recovered, like what, what would this look like, like a coexistence, if, if you had to posit a guess, like do we have some sort of a relationship? Like, what does this look like?
- [72:58]
B
Well, that is the million dollar question now, isn't it Jillian? Let me, let me. We don't have a very good track record and not just humans, all life on Earth. If you look at it specifically from a Darwinian perspective, whenever one species comes into contact with another species, there's only three options. And one is one species will take over. The dominant species will take over the less, the, the, the less dominant. Or you will have the other way around where the other one is actually more dominant and will, you know, absorb the other. And then of course you have this symbiotic relationship which is a third option where they will live in, in peace. But the reality is that rarely doesn't happen in real nature. And it's not just human beings, right? We see this amongst ourselves culturally, we see it anthropologically as well. But it's also with every form of life, if you look at a bush or a tree, you will see that it will, in order to get sunlight, it will crowd out the other plants. Look at bacteria. If you take bacteria and introduce it to a petri dish with other bacteria, the dominant bacteria will take over. It will take over and wipe out the less dominant bacteria. So this is almost the way life is hardwired. We do this instinctually. And it's not just humans, right? All life tends to compete because we are in a, what we call a resource starved environment. And as long as we live in a resource starved environment, things don't usually turn out well for the less dominant species. Now there is light at the end of the tunnel. Let's just presume for one moment that if you have the technology to, you know, zoom around the cosmos, that you have somehow managed to evolve beyond this resource scarce environment where, where now you are living in an environment where resources aren't scarce at all, they're plentiful. And you're not competing necessarily for resources, whether it's energy, whether it's food, whether it's influence, whether it's, it's money, whatever, whatever it is, right? We're always competing with each other, other for these things. And it all boils down to our, our survival instinct. We want to have a better advantage and opportunity than, than the poor guy or gal next to us. It's hardwired into, into our evolution. So is it possible that these things have evolved beyond that? And perhaps, you know, if they were to come into contact with us. Maybe they're not interested in warfare, but. But maybe we are. I'll share with you. There was a general I gave this briefing to on uap. He's about three years ago now, and it was about an hour and a half long. And he looked at me, and at the end of the briefing, he looked at me and he thanked me and he shook my hand. He said, lou, listen, that was very interesting and all, but really, I've just got one question for you. If these things land on the White House lawn tomorrow, am I supposed to put my hand out in. In friendship, or do I point an M16 to its head?
- [76:10]
A
Oh, geez.
- [76:11]
B
And I said to him, you know, my dear General, you're looking at this completely the wrong way. Either one could do, miss. You know, it's not an either or scenario. It's not a binary solution, because let's just presume, for example, these things are hostile and you put your hand out in friendship and what to do, it thinks it's a sign of weakness, right? Or these things are technologically super advanced, and all of a sudden you put an M16 to its head and guess what? It decides to wipe out the human race. So we're looking at this again like we are. We are dealing with foreign countries, and we can't. We have to. We have to avoid that temptation because this is not an either or scenario trail. And we don't know what coexistence looks like. We don't even know if it's possible, right? Because everything on life here on this planet tells us it's not possible, that eventually one species will take over the other. And that's true. Even in human evolution, if you look at it from Neanderthal and you know, Australopithecus africanus, and you know, Australopithecus robustus and all these other. And Afarensis, you have this. This competition for resources, and inevitably one species goes extinct while the other one thrives. So, you know, that's.
- [77:21]
A
That's God you live with a lot, huh? It's quite a burden to carry all the time, because we'll end this interview and my brain will have to let this go because there's nowhere to go with it. And it'll swarm around and there'll be an article in the Daily Mail, and then like, oh, any day now. And then any day just doesn't come. And I, you know, go pick my kids up from soccer in a few hours. How do you live with. How do you carry this? I'm Just curious.
- [77:52]
B
Well, first of all, you can't let it drive you crazy. You know, I have responsibilities as a father. I have responsibilities as a husband. I have responsibilities as a taxpayer. I have responsibilities as a businessman, owner. I have responsibilities as a citizen. And the fact that this information is now becoming more publicly available doesn't change any of that. Right. There's still a reason why I'm here. There's still a reason why I've been put on this earth and, and. And chasing UFOs, frankly, is probably not. Not one of them. That's aside, you know, consider that a side hustle. My. My real responsibilities are. Are to my family and to my country, to my nation. And those things never change. You know, it. How do I live with it? Well, I compartmentalize.
- [78:43]
A
Yeah.
- [78:44]
B
When I. When I like you. Right.
- [78:46]
A
Yes.
- [78:47]
B
You have this. This. This campaign to fight the corruption within the health system, and it really is part of who you are. Right. And it's a cause. But at the same time, at some point, you have to go home and you have to prepare dinner and you have to. To. You have to. You have to break away, even for just a few moments, otherwise it will. It will consume you. Right.
- [79:09]
A
I was on a freaking gondola. I don't mean to interrupt you. I was on a gondola with a couple of my friends. Go. I was. We're about to. Going up on the lifts, and I'm working on this book, and my friend Julie, she's like, how's everything going? How's the book going? And I had just finished this. This chapter on. On corruption in Washington. And I was like, julie, this is not a government of the people, for the people. I was like, the whole thing's rigged. None of this is real. She's just like. My friends, like, her and her husband Matt, they're looking at me and they're like, are you okay? And I was like, I'm good. I'm good. Let's. Let's get a drink after that. But. But I realized, like, I am in a. They think I'm whackadoodle dandy. They think I'm nuts. And my wife is like, honey, I think maybe we, you know, we saved these conversations for at home, you know, and it just. But I remember thinking, like, they have no idea. They think USAID is there to feed children in Africa. I'm like, oh, my God. You have no idea what's actually happening, and you feel like you're losing your fricking mind. I can't even imagine taking that little feeling that I have and magnifying it by a million to what you much more must, must feel, you know, I.
- [80:22]
B
I don't think that's fair. I think you have just as much responsibility as I do. Look, you are, you are, you are working very hard to, to better, you know, your, your, your, your fellow human beings around you. And you do this because you know it's the right thing to do. And you carry that in your heart everywhere you go. That is no different than me. I, I don't think mine is any bigger or smaller. In fact, I could argue, don't agree with you there. More of mental exercise where you are actually trying to help improve the lives of everyday human beings. And so, you know, I look to you and I admire that tremendously.
- [80:57]
A
Well, you're trying to save the planet and the entire human race. Last question. The book imminent, right? Is it ever going to be imminent? Am I going to see this in my lifetime? In your gut, I told my kids, I'm like it. When this started in 2019, I was like, oh my God, you're going to see this in your lifetime. And my son and I, like, we, we would take these weekend trips and we would listen to your talks and fall asleep. Like he'd been his little twin bed. I'd be in my twin bed and I would put on, you know, I.
- [81:30]
B
Do that to people. I definitely put people.
- [81:32]
A
No, I mean, we would, no, it's like a bedtime story. I mean, we would listen to, to people like you, people like Rogan and, and I was like, like, his name's Phoenix. And I was like, p, in your lifetime, I think you're going to see this. Is he going to see this or not?
- [81:47]
B
I, I, I think so. Absolutely. I, we are. I tell people this, this effort has, you know, it's a marathon, it's not a sprint. It's a long run. Takes a lot of time, a lot of effort. But if you look at just the last seven years, how far we've come, look, you now have ex presidents saying, yeah, there's, there's something to this, right? You have former director of the CIA, former directors of national intelligence all coming in saying, yeah, folks, it's real. You know, we've got something to, we got something to, to discuss here. We've come a long way. And so, you know, I know people, you know, kind of, it's like Burger King, right? They want to have it your way and they want it now. Reality. There's a lot of, a lot of things we have to pay attention to who pay attention to. And there is. If we don't do this the right way, we only got one chance to do it the right way. There are consequences. I mean, there are real, there's legal consequences, there's moral consequences, and there's consequences to our national security. And so I know people's, you know, natural curiosities. Just say, bill, just, I just need to know. Well, I get it, but it's not quite that simple. It takes, takes a lot of time, and I think we're getting there. I, I, I'm, you know, every day more and more you're seeing people on the record, very senior people on the record coming out and saying, yeah, you know, I can't tell how many times when I go to Congress, and I'm not going to say who they are, but they've had their own UFO experience. You know, I remember one member of Congress telling me that he was fishing with his son on a, on a lake. And in a mill, out of the middle of the lake, this thing came right out of the water, hovered for a minute, and then took off like, like a bat out of hell. And, you know, he's like, look, I, I saw with my own eyes, I, I know what my son and I saw. We're not crazy. So I think, I think we're getting there. But again, it's, it's takes a little patience. I've told people, look, if you're getting frustrated, you're getting, you're getting fatigued by all this, you know, tune out for five years and then tune back in, you know.
- [83:45]
A
Okay, Lou, can you tell everybody about the book, the documentary, what you're up to, what's next?
- [83:52]
B
You know, I hate talking about.
- [83:54]
A
You got it though, bro. This is how it goes. And by the way, they need, I mean, I, I could do it, I'll do it in the intro, I'll do it now. I mean, I like.
- [84:00]
B
But you know what, I'll, I'll, I'll leave that up to you. And when we log off, I much prefer dialogue like this and engaging your audience. It's not about me. I, you know, I, People who know me personally know I'm not self serving.
- [84:15]
A
This is not about self serving, though. It's honestly.
- [84:19]
B
The book.
- [84:20]
A
Imminent. I don't know the freaking. I should know the subtitle. I have the book sitting on my shelf. Can I trick you into telling me the subtitle, the documentary, the Age of Disclosure. I have to ask, are you working on another one?
- [84:37]
B
I have a Lot of projects right now on the way underway. I believe that, that public engagement and communication is very important.
- [84:46]
A
Where can we go to learn about those things that are coming up then? How about that?
- [84:49]
B
That. Sure. Well, I, I will do. Some people know that, that once a year I tend to take the show on the road and, and I, I talk to people around America and we have kind of an open forum or, you know, we have a discussion. So expect that. There's a lot of information that did not make the first book imminent, that as you say in the business, you know, didn't make it off the cutting room floor. But there's a lot. And, and, and the conversation. Conversation is still ongoing. There's a lot of things happening right now behind the scenes that I think people would be, you know, very interested to learn. I am committed to this. I'm committed to continuing having this conversation in any way I can that is productive and helpful. I don't plan on going anywhere. I. Recently I was diagnosed with a pretty, pretty bad parasitic infection that for years I had ballooned out. I gained about 55 pounds. I was very unhealthy. In fact, when you saw the movie, I was, was. I was very morbidly obese. But I'm finally feeling much better. They're able to get a handle on it. And now I've lost almost 60 pounds and I feel much better. So, you know, self care is important. Self making sure that you, you, you invest in yourself and your health. And I'm really doing that because I still want to engage people. I want to have this conversation and, and hopefully soon, you know, it won't be me, me, you know, it'll be somebody else and other people, other whistleblowers having this conversation with the American public. And, and I can just kind of fade off into the sunset, you know, and help whenever.
- [86:23]
A
I certainly hope that part doesn't happen. I cannot thank you enough. This for me has been a freaking long time coming. I don't know where you are in Wyoming, but I'm in Jackson. So if ever I, I could come out to you and take you.
- [86:37]
B
I'm on the. I'm in the Jack Jackson of the East. I'm in a little town, mountain town here called Buffalo. In fact, a lot of folks from Jackson moved out here too. And about now, my neighbors out here. It's a beautiful little place. It's gorgeous. I'm a business owner out here, so I have a bar. So I'll.
- [86:53]
A
Oh, I'll be there. All right.
- [86:55]
B
Glass of wine. We carry Some very nice wines. Would love to have you.
- [86:58]
A
Thank you. Lou, thank you so much. You're fantastic. And guys, I'll put all of this in the show notes for you to buy the book, watch the documentary, find out where to hear Lou speak. Ah, to be continued, I guess, my friend.
- [87:12]
B
You got it. Jillian, thank you very much. And thank you to your. Your amazing production crew. And a huge thank you. Probably the biggest thank you to. To your amazing audience. I know a lot of times people who listen to these type of programs don't really, you know, they're kind of like observers and sitting in the grandstands and looking down, but the reality is they're very much part of. Of this conversation. Every single person right now in your audience that's listening to this is actually part of the solution, is actually part of the conversation. And, and I want to thank them because we would not be here right now in this conversation with Congress and the media if it wasn't for. For people in your audience who had an interest. Right. And demand to know the truth. And so really, a lot of the credit goes. Goes to them. And so a huge thank you to. To your amazing audience. Audience.
- [87:56]
A
Thank you, Voss. I'll be at that bar sooner than later.
- [88:00]
B
You got it, Jillian. Anytime.
- [88:02]
A
Thank you so much for watching. If you enjoyed the podcast, please, like, comment, subscribe and share and make sure to let me know what guests you want to see on in the future.