← Keeping It Real: Conversations with Jillian Michaels
Keeping It Real: Conversations with Jillian Michaels
VACCINES: HONEST ANSWERS with Dr Joel Warsh
01:23:10
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- [00:00]
Jillian Michaels
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- [03:32]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Thanks for having me on.
- [03:33]
Jillian Michaels
How are you?
- [03:34]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I'm great. I'm great.
- [03:35]
Jillian Michaels
You doing okay?
- [03:36]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I would.
- [03:36]
Jillian Michaels
I'm surprised that angry mobs haven't pulled you from your home.
- [03:40]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Me too. I was expecting a lot of angry mog. Maybe some people with black coats are waiting outside. I don't know.
- [03:44]
Jillian Michaels
I was worried for you, but now I'm, I'm feeling more confident. So. The new book is called Between a Shot and a Hard Place. Tackling Difficult Vaccine Questions with Balanced Data and clarity. First question, who are you? Why did you write the book? What are your credentials?
- [04:01]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I'm an integrative pediatrician. I work in Los Angeles. I've been working with kids for over a decade. Before med school, did a master's in epidemiology and have been working since. I never really talked about vaccines, not outside the office. I mean, it's the question I was getting the most in the office, but unfortunately it was so censored that it was really scary to talk about. And I think most people just didn't and haven't in a long time. But I got so frustrated during the pandemic. I've been so frustrated for parents who have questions that don't seem to be getting answers. And that really led me through, really led me down the path to want to write a book and really want to inform people and have a discussion and a debate about vaccines. I'm not against vaccines. I think it's really important to start there. Like, I'm not against vaccines. I'm not anti vaccine. We give vaccines in the office. I don't feel like people should be forced to do anything. I feel like we should be able to have conversations. But there are people in my office that do the regular schedule, that do a slower schedule. Some don't. And I think that's where we really need to be. And I think we need to have debate and discussion, and it just doesn't seem like we've been able to do that. And that's why I wrote the book. It's not to convince people to do anything. It's really to discuss the major issues, discuss the major concerns, and then bring vaccines out from the shadows. So it's not censored anymore. There's no reason we can't talk about it.
- [05:20]
Jillian Michaels
You brought up a key word, forced, which, you know, as you've seen, I have. I don't think I've ever. And my entire history of doing this show had a stack of questions this thick. So don't worry, you're going to get everything you guys want to get out of this. But I did do a lot of homework with regard to the things that people want to know. The areas of debate, debate in particular. The force piece is a big deal, and I want to litigate that off the top. And it wasn't in the questions.
- [05:47]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So.
- [05:48]
Jillian Michaels
So here's my question. Okay.
- [05:52]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Right.
- [05:52]
Jillian Michaels
Like, I'll give you the example of Kennedy and Marty McCary removing Covid shots from the schedule for healthy kids, and everybody went crazy. My answer was, hold on a second. Could still get the vaccine if you want it. And you know that. Then, like, so what is the issue? Right, this. You're giving somebody choice, they immediately default to the herd immunity argument. If you don't get it, you're going to give it to someone else. Okay, next. Then I go to, well, but the other person can get the vaccine. Okay, ready for the next one? I'm sure you've heard it a thousand times. Yeah, but I can still get sick, though, just not as bad. And it's like, but, but if you can still get sick, doesn't that nullify the argument? Then it's what about vulnerable populations in the developing world? And my answer would be, then if you want to go into that country, you're required to get that vacc. Explain to me if there is any scenario where you think a parent should be forced to vaccinate their kids based on the logic that I just laid out and by the way, the severity of the condition. So one more example. Whooping cough. It's now well known that I got my ass kicked by whooping cough in the beginning of 2025, and it can be fatal for newborns, as far as I understand it. So it's like, well, we're going to protect these parents from themselves and we're going to force that whooping cough vaccine because it is so deadly. Okay, is There any scenario where you should be forced to vaccinate your kid for something.
- [07:36]
Dr. Joel Warsh
In my personal opinion, I don't think we should be forcing people to get vaccines. I think if you are going to. For something, it needs to be very clear. We need to have discussions beforehand about what the scenario would be in which we would allow that it have to be very strict criteria, very rigorous oversight of that. Maybe looking at it very often to make sure. Because there could be something that would pop up that could be extremely deadly, where it does make sense that we would have some sort of oversight that.
- [08:04]
Jillian Michaels
Deadly Right now, like I want to play devil's advocate the whole show.
- [08:08]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I don't think on the regular childhood schedule there's anything that requires forcing people to do it. I really, that's my personal opinion. I think that it needs to be imminent. There needs to be an extremely high level of harm, an extremely imminent danger to force people to do things. My thought around medicine and really the. The word doctor is to teach, right? Our job is to teach, is to inform, is to recommend, not to force. The CDC schedule is not a mandate, it's a recommendation. It's the recommended CDC schedule. So I think that's what we should be doing in medicine. I feel like a lot of the controversy around vaccines is around people feeling like they were forced to get the COVID vaccine and they're now worried or have been worried they're going to be forced to do something in the future that they don't want to do. Unquestionably. And in general, I don't think you need to force people to do things. The vast majority of people do get vaccines. They want to be convinced based on the research and evidence that it's the best thing for them to do, that the benefits outweigh the harms. And if that is true, you will happily go and get them. That's what, that's the way that I think it should be.
- [09:10]
Jillian Michaels
You say it's not forced, but arguably it is because we've all seen that clip of Fauci being like, we made it real hard. You want to work, right?
- [09:17]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Well, you want to travel. But I think that is, I think that is forced in a way. I, I think that to me, we, we should get. Kids can't go to school, coercion out of the equation. I don't think you need to coerce people to force them to get vaccines, to go to school, to force them to work. I don't think that's what you need. You need good evidence and research to show People the benefits that weigh the risks. And you want to get this because you want to be protected. And if you with all of that information decide that you don't feel like it's best for you in your specific situation, then that's how we do every other thing in medicine. Jehovah's Witnesses don't have to get blood, they don't want to. You don't have to take cancer treatment if you don't want to. You weigh the risks and the benefits with your doctor and you decide even if there is a theoretical benefit to you, you can choose not to do it.
- [09:59]
Jillian Michaels
Herd immunity. If you don't do it, you're killing my grandma.
- [10:02]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So there, there is an argument there. For some of the vaccines, herd immunity does make a major difference because the disease doesn't have anywhere to go.
- [10:10]
Jillian Michaels
So.
- [10:11]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So for something like measles, that, that does make sense. It's. It's a important topic to understand from a public's perspective because for those individuals that the vaccine doesn't work, for those individuals that are too young to get the vaccine, for those individuals that are immune compromised, if there's more measles circulating, there's more chance that they're going to get it. It's a very simplified discussion if you're just talking about that, because there are many other diseases which you could still get if you're immune compromised. So it's not just that one disease and it's still this social contract of, of what do you owe to somebody else? And it's not a simple question. I don't think there's an easy answer there because I would do want to.
- [10:47]
Jillian Michaels
Protect other people down to the severity of the disease and, and a combination of how well it's been tested. So it's like, oh, this disease is devastating and newborns can't get it and it will kill babies. And the vaccine is really safe. We're mandating that for public safety.
- [11:07]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I agree with you, but it's hard has a different definition for that. What, what is safe? What are you protecting? What should you protecting somebody from it it just becomes very nuanced. And that's why I think the conversation around herd immunity and the social contract of how we protect others is something we need to have serious discussions and debates openly and publicly, because it's not, it's not so simple. Like is measles super deadly? Should that we protecting people from that is Covid. What percentage of it is something that you should be protecting others from? I think that's a very difficult Conversation, because it's not just about that. It's not just about measles. It's, well, you get measles, but then you get 15 other vaccines. So how many vaccines is too many? At what point do I feel like the burden on my own child is too high, that I don't necessarily want to protect somebody else? What if I'm asked to, you know, you can give a hyperbolic example of what if you're asked to give a kidney to another child, like there's a kid that needs a kidney donation. Should you have to have your child have that surgery to give a kidney? Most people wouldn't do that for someone they don't know. But you are protecting somebody else who needs a kidney. So there's a line, and everybody draws a different line. Obviously, a vaccine is very different than giving a kidney. But it's not a simple either or. Especially as we're getting more vaccines and the schedule is expanding every single year, it's a more nuanced conversation. It becomes very difficult. So I understand. And that's where we need to have discussions and debates, because intelligent people are going to come down on this in different places. Everyone has a different ethical standard or a line or what they feel is correct. Protecting your own kid versus protecting others. And both can be right.
- [12:40]
Jillian Michaels
Okay, you're saying protecting your kid, which implies concern, and how many is too many, which also implies concern. Is there cause for concern or not? I got every frigging shot under the sun. I've traveled all over the world. I've probably been stuck a thousand times with a thousand things. I've mind you, I am aware that the schedule for me as a child was nothing like this. I was born in 74. So cause for concern.
- [13:10]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I think parents are concerned, but is.
- [13:12]
Jillian Michaels
There cause for concern? Totally different animal.
- [13:15]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I think there is growing cause for concern. I think that's not unreasonable. It depends who you ask. I think that's the issue. You have two different worlds with all this vaccine information. I mean, the COVID vaccine is a perfect example. You have one world of people that say it's the best thing ever, saved millions of lives, saved trillions of dollars. And then you have a whole other world of people that say it's the worst thing ever and it's killing more people. And they never seem to discuss anything in the middle. And we don't have that nuanced conversation. I think that's true with all vaccines, where we're adding more and more. They have small risks, but they're there. And we also have a lack of understanding of the cumulative risk and a lack of understanding for long term risks. And so I think when we're talking about risk versus benefits, you have the medical community that says, look, we know how deadly these diseases are, we know how much they protect you. You should get your vaccines. And then there are other people that say, wait, but what are the cost to those vaccines? Are they related to autism? Are they related to autoimmune conditions? Are they related to asthma? Because that is the most important question. If you're trying to weigh risk versus benefits, I think we have a good understanding of how they can protect you in theory from disease. But the question is at what cost? Because if they protect you and they're not related to any of these long term complications, that is a very different answer than if they are increasing your risk for asthma and increasing your risk for autoimmune conditions. And the standard medical community still says no, there's, they're not related to those in any way. But I think there's a growing concern, more research, more understanding and more skepticism among parents that these things are related in some way or might be correlated in some way.
- [14:47]
Jillian Michaels
Okay, so three questions I highlighted just off of what you just said. The first one is let's discuss the cost. In other words, you're suggesting, right, that there is, there is a cost benefit analysis with these medications. I've often vaccines. I've often suggested the same thing because I talk to so many doctors. So for example, you know, if I had a flesh eating bacteria, I would want my doctor to put Cipro in every part of my body. But if I had a cold, I certainly would not want antibiotics prophylactically because they destroy your microbiome and that has a host of negative impacts. So the cost benefit analysis, flesh eating virus, you know, sacrifice the microbiome, keep the arm, you know, so it's like, okay, with a vaccine injury. Let's talk about this for a second. What does this look like? Truly, what is considered severe? What is considered mild? It's like, oh, you just had a little bit of a fever. Oh, there's a side effect. Oh no, you've got myocarditis, like big continuum autism, all this stuff that you just listed. What is a vaccine injury?
- [15:57]
Dr. Joel Warsh
The difficult part of that is it's not very clear for a lot of people, right? So I, I, I think, I think for a mild reaction, it's pretty clear, right? It's, so we have a mild reaction, right? So basically it's an immune response. You'd expect your immune system to do something. If you get a vaccine, that's what it's supposed to do. So you get a vaccine. The things you see very commonly, they have a fever, you don't feel good, your arm hurts, you get some swelling, redness, a bump, a little bit of a rash, those kind of things. That's a common reaction. I wouldn't call it any sort of severe reaction. I mean those things happen pretty commonly. And that just means your immune system is working and having an immune response. So that if you're doing a research trial, you're going to record it, but it's not necessarily recorded anywhere else. And most doctors see that all the time. The question is with everything else, because to call something a vaccine reaction, it's really something that a doctor calls a vaccine reaction. That's it. There is no exact definition. You go to your doctor, you think you're having a reaction. You can write it down in the chart. If, if it's very severe, it could be reviewed by a panel. Somebody could voluntarily submit that to the vaccine. Diverse reporting vaers so you can voluntarily report it, but there is no real other mechanism for reporting right now. So it's really just if you decide to report it in general and a.
- [17:11]
Jillian Michaels
Vaccine injury can be extremely severe. It runs the gamut is basically what you're saying. Nothing could be a little fever, immune system responding, could be myocarditis.
- [17:20]
Dr. Joel Warsh
And in the short term, yeah, so you could have death. So there are some things that are listed that are known causes, but very few. But there's a short list of things like death, encephalitis, so inflammation in the brain, um, inflammation in the arm, seizures, and then myocarditis in the COVID vaccine is something that's obviously been talked about.
- [17:39]
Jillian Michaels
All vaccines can cause this kind of injury. Some vaccines can cause this kind of.
- [17:43]
Dr. Joel Warsh
They can generally all cause the serious reactions, just not that commonly. And certainly obviously some vaccines will cause certain reactions more or less that is documented. The question I think that most parents have and many practitioners have is how about all the other things? How are those related in the long term and how do we know if they are or not related?
- [18:01]
Jillian Michaels
What do you mean other things?
- [18:02]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Asthma, allergies, autoimmune conditions, autism. The big questions that are in parents minds because doctors work in the hospital, they work in the icu, they've seen serious disease, they've seen people get very sick from whooping cough and die. They've seen if they're older, doctor, maybe haemophilus influenza Caused meningitis. They've seen RSV cause breathing issues. And so they're very worried and they're like, look, you can get this vaccine. You can protect your kid from this. Parents don't see those things. Parents see autoimmune conditions on the rise, chronic disease. They see. And so it's a different world. And I think that people have a very different frame of reference. And so there's a very big fear around some of these chronic conditions because most parents have never seen these diseases. And a lot of that does come back to vaccines. I mean, we have certainly much improved sanitation, much improved nutrition, but a lot of the vaccines have gotten rid of these. These diseases. So you don't really see them anymore.
- [18:58]
Jillian Michaels
I want to work backwards here. Let's litigate what's truly been safety tested. So you could literally Google right now, it's like this autism conversation has been debunked. But in my mind, I'm like, how though? Even just when I look at hep B and you try to find long term studies on safety, not efficacy, Safety, good luck. Like, oh, we looked at this at five years and we looked at this at 10 years. But what did safety. What did you. Did you look for autism or this or that or algebra? It's looking at efficacy, as far as I can tell. And then it's, we robustly debunked measles and autism. But have you looked at when measles, mumps and rubella are put together? Has that been robustly tested? So Kennedy says no. The news Google, ChatGPT say yes. How robust? Let me go to my ro. My safety testing questions in here while I look for my whole list of questions.
- [20:14]
Dr. Joel Warsh
It's okay, that's a broad enough question.
- [20:15]
Jillian Michaels
We can go, yeah, like what? Tell me vaccine by vaccine. Vaccine. Some have been tested, some haven't.
- [20:20]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Do you want to do autism first or safety testing? Because those are both huge topics that are created. You want to do autism first?
- [20:24]
Jillian Michaels
I want to go safety testing. And then because they're kind of like, we've tested it for autism. So it kind of has like a.
- [20:31]
Dr. Joel Warsh
They haven't. They haven't really. So we'll get there, which is crazy.
- [20:34]
Jillian Michaels
Okay, talk to me about the safety testing.
- [20:36]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So when we hear Secretary Kennedy talking about it, the words matter and word placebo I think is the biggest controversy right now.
- [20:45]
Jillian Michaels
Okay.
- [20:46]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Because if you are to say that vaccines haven't been safety tested, that would be untrue. Every vaccine has had lots of safety testing.
- [20:54]
Jillian Michaels
Okay.
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Dr. Joel Warsh
They've all been tested. Before they hit the market. They haven't all been tested in the way that we would consider the best safety testing.
- [21:01]
Jillian Michaels
Got it now. Okay.
- [21:02]
Dr. Joel Warsh
And the vast majority, basically all the vaccines on the childhood schedule were not inert placebo controlled tested. So that's the big key difference because when he's not specific with his words, that's where he gets in trouble.
- [21:15]
Jillian Michaels
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- [21:27]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I.
- [21:27]
Jillian Michaels
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- [25:02]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Correct. So placebo by definition should be inert, meaning it doesn't cause anything in the body. So like salt water.
- [25:09]
Jillian Michaels
Check. Understood. Yes. Oh, compared to testing against other vaccines.
- [25:13]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Exactly. So he says it hasn't been placebo. They said, yes it has. Look. Look at all these studies that have been placebo controlled. Yes, they've all been studied. Every single one for sure. But they haven't been inert. Placebo controlled trial. Basically, all the vaccines on the market for kids have not been studied before they were licensed with inert placebo controlled testing. Some have done efficacy testing, some have done. Mostly they've been testing against other vaccines. That's how they do it. So they test against other vaccines. They tested against the earlier version of a vaccine or they tested against the vaccine minus the actual antigen. So the actual active component. Component. So that's what he's talking about when he's saying it. And sometimes he's not very specific with his words. But that is true. There have been some. Some inert placebo control trials on some of the vaccines we don't use in the kids schedule. The original polio vaccine, it was tested against saline, but the one we use now is different. So we have an ethical debate because, one, we never did them in the correct way back then because it was different science back then. It was, you know, 50 years, 100 years ago. They weren't doing things the way that we're doing them now. But once we have said that these things work, then you go, okay, well, we can't not give a kid a vaccine. So therefore we test the old whooping cough against the new whooping cough. So you're testing your new DTaP vaccine against the old DTP vaccine. The old DTP vaccine was taken off the market for safety concerns. But when you're studying them, you say, well, it's not unsafe because they have similar safety. So that's what he's talking about. It's a relative safety. So it doesn't mean that a vaccine's unsafe. It's just you're not testing it against an inert placebo or saltwater. You're testing it against another vaccine. So the easiest example would be, imagine you take vaccine one versus vaccine two. Both vaccines. You get 10 seizures. So after that trial, like, well, it causes 10 seizures, therefore it's the same. There's no safety risk. But if you had a third group that was salt water and that had one person get a seizure, you would say, well, that's a pretty different study. One seizure versus 10. So that's what he's talking about when he's talking about not having inert placebo controlled trials cells. He wants that moving forward, which should be the reality.
- [27:25]
Jillian Michaels
I have read that and I didn't understand that. It's like, well, that causes 10 seizures, and this causes 10 seizures. So we're good moving along.
- [27:37]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So that's the way that they can get around it sometimes. Because when you're doing a blinded trial, unless you're lying or cheating somehow as a company, you don't know who's getting what. So the way that you could have the best results is to stack the deck. So you study one vaccine versus another. For example, the first pneumococcus vaccine. There were no other pneumococcus vaccines on the market, so you could study it against neuroplacebo. There's no ethics there. They cited it against the meningococcus vaccine in their safety trials. So there's only one reason why you would do that. And it's not because they're evil, just because they want to get the best results possible. That's what you would do. If you're a company, if you're not forced to do something else, why wouldn't you do that?
- [28:14]
Jillian Michaels
Oh, okay. All right, let's. I want to come back to autism for a second. I want to talk about the different technologies here. So this was briefly explained to me from an evolutionary biologist. Believe it or not.
- [28:33]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I heard that episode was good. I really like.
- [28:35]
Jillian Michaels
Thank you.
- [28:36]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I, I, I love her.
- [28:37]
Jillian Michaels
She's amazing. But it, let's talk about the different technologies.
- [28:41]
Dr. Joel Warsh
It's.
- [28:42]
Jillian Michaels
You know what? I'm not even gonna try to butcher it. Tell me about the different technologies. Yeah, there you go. The vaccine tech. Before I try to explain it to you and then you correct me.
- [28:50]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Yeah. The very basics are you would have killed diseases. You'd have parts of the disease proteins, or the new ones are the mRNA. So it's genetics where you're trying to create a protein to create a response. So you're, you're putting some part or the whole disease, virus or bacteria into the body. So that way you get an immune response to it. You're either killing it, you're inactivating it, or you're just doing one part of it. So you can't actually get sick from the disease in theory, unless it's a live virus.
- [29:17]
Jillian Michaels
Those still exist, though, in small doses or no more live virus.
- [29:21]
Dr. Joel Warsh
There are some live viruses still, but usually they're killed.
- [29:24]
Jillian Michaels
Such small dose.
- [29:25]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Okay, so the oral polio is the main one where there's that concern, because the oral polio vaccine was live and theoretically could convert back into polio. And people got polio. Most of the polio that people were getting for a long time but was actually from the vaccine, which is why they pulled it from the American market. And we only get the inactivated polio now.
- [29:40]
Jillian Michaels
When was it pulled?
- [29:40]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I'm curious. Like 20 years ago, I think.
- [29:43]
Jillian Michaels
10, 20, 20 years ago, something like that.
- [29:45]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Maybe 30 years ago. It wasn't, it wasn't that long ago. Like, most of the polio we had was from. It wasn't a lot. It was one in a million doses, but it was a lot when there was no polio.
- [29:56]
Jillian Michaels
Got it. All right, so now you've got all right, live. But that's kind of like doesn't really almost a extinct science. You've got dead pathogen or pieces of the pathogen. Enter the adjuvant conversation. So what Heather Hang had tried to explain to me or did, let's see if I interpret it correctly, is that when you put a dead pathogen into the body, dead virus, dead bacteria, whatever, the body can or cannot care can choose whether it's alarmed and the immune system wakes up and says, oh, pathogen, let me create a blueprint to kill this thing should I ever see it again. Since it's dead, they got to put an adjuvant in there like aluminum or what the heck would mercury. Right back in the day. Is this still happening? What is the genuine concern on adjuvants? And the argument as far as I understand it, is the amount of mercury is so small you'd have to eat 50,000 vaccines to ever be worried. And you get more mercury in the potato that you cooked. That came from the soil.
- [31:01]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Said that very accurately. So the first thing is mercury was more of a preservative. So not so much for an adjuvant. It was more because for the multi dose vials it was to make sure that bacteria and fungus didn't grow a little bit different of a reason, but another metal got it. So aluminum is in there. It's not so much for the killed infections, it's more for the pieces like the proteins, because so if you have a whole virus, whole bacteria, your body tends to respond pretty well. So like measles vaccine or chickenpox vaccine, which are the live vaccines, those are the ones that don't have aluminum in them. The other ones like hepatitis B, hepatitis B, the DTAP vaccine, those ones do have a little bit of aluminum there because you're only doing a little part of protein. So your body doesn't necessarily create a robust immune response to that. And so the aluminum helps to do that. It's a immune irritant. It helps to stimulate an immune response in a stronger effect. So that way you have a better, more robust immune response. So that's why it's in there. It definitely works. The question is again, at what cost?
- [32:04]
Jillian Michaels
After doing all of this frigging research, what is the cost? Or do you have a. Do you speculate at one? Does there seem to be evidence of one?
- [32:14]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I, it's, it's tough because just like you said, the, the standard medical community would say it's a very, very, very small dose and therefore we don't see any issues. You eat more aluminum every day. Uh huh, yeah. It doesn't create an issue at.
- [32:27]
Jillian Michaels
Okay.
- [32:28]
Dr. Joel Warsh
My argument to that is it's not the same thing as injecting it. It's not the same thing as injecting multiple vaccines as you add more and more. I think we have an evolving understanding of these metals. We didn't think lead was a problem until we did. We didn't think mercury was a problem until we did. They put mercury in vaccines without even thinking about how it could be potentially an issue. And then somebody somewhere said, wait a minute, we have more mercury in vaccines than we allow in food. How does that make sense? And then people went, oh, crap, we do. Let's. And it's a little different form of mercury. But still they were like, we have more mercury in vaccines than we have in food. Is that okay? And then now we're at this aluminum conversation where we say, it's totally fine. We've done all these safety tests. It's totally okay. But if you look at the number, if you look at the, the details that we have, like the EPA, the FDA, they allow like 0.2 milligrams per liter in our drinking water. And some vaccines, they have more than that. They have more than point like 0.25 milligrams in hepatitis B vaccine. The argument is, well, it's one vaccine versus drinking all the time. So it's a very small amount. But I still think it's a different mechanism when you're, when you're drinking it or eating it. Your body has, I think, developed over time to deal with these metals because they're just in the environment in general. And so it's a little different when you're injecting it and the way that your body deals with it. And it doesn't mean that's a problem. I don't know. I don't know that anybody totally knows yet. But I don't think it's unreasonable for a parent to have concerns about it, especially as we had more and more vaccines that have aluminum in it. Then what is the cumulative effect, especially in kids, that maybe they have a certain genetics, maybe they have a kidney issue, maybe they were born premature, maybe they just don't detoxify as well? Again, not to say that we shouldn't use it, but should we not be allowed to ask those questions, to research it, to make the vaccines the safest? Because if it is causing an issue, let's just say, wouldn't doctors want to know that? Wouldn't we want to know so we can make the vaccine safer? Maybe we could find a different adjuvant that we could use. Maybe we could use a different dose. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. But if you keep adding More and more. At some point it's going to cause an issue.
- [34:30]
Jillian Michaels
How many?
- [34:32]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Well, that's one of those crazy questions because doctors say you could have 10,000 vaccines, you could have 100,000 vaccines. It's totally fine. We're exposed to all sorts of things when we eat an apple. So therefore our body should be able to handle all these vaccines. And that doesn't make sense to me because that's not the way that a vaccine works. Like, it's not just the antigen. There's so many other things in there. There's certainly some upper limit, the amount of aluminum you could eject into your body.
- [34:53]
Jillian Michaels
You've opened up another door here.
- [34:55]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Okay, but what is it? And I'm not saying, and I want to be clear, I'm not saying that it is an issue. I'm saying it's reasonable to ask the question. And it's reasonable for people like Secretary Kennedy to say, look, let's study this more. And at the end of the day, if we get more research and the research continues to show that it doesn't cause an issue from unbiased individuals, that's the kind of research that would make parents more comfortable to get vaccines.
- [35:17]
Jillian Michaels
Key word being unbiased research. That is not conflicted.
- [35:21]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Sure.
- [35:22]
Jillian Michaels
Right. And meaning it's not funded by the people that.
- [35:25]
Dr. Joel Warsh
And that's what's so hard with the vaccine research, I find, because you have two worlds of research. You have people that are super pro vax that get the most pro voice, that show everything's perfect, and then you have people that are pretty anti vax that show all these sorts of problems. And then you get a book by somebody like Paul Offit or Peter Hotez, like major vaccine people. There never is a problem with vaccines. Look at all these great studies. And then you read a book by Secretary Kennedy or Neil Miller and it shows all these studies that show issues and neither one of them shows the other side. And that was again, one of the reasons why I want to write the book. I want you to see both things side by side because Secretary Kennedy needs to sit in a room with Paul Offit and they have to have a debate and discussion about these things so we can move things forward and actually get to the best place. I don't care if kids get 10,000 vaccines or zero vaccines. I want them to be the healthiest possible. And I don't know what the answer is unless we can discuss it. It shouldn't be our job, shouldn't be to push more vaccines. It should be to make Healthier kids. And if vaccines make you healthier and more vaccines make you healthier, great. But if they're causing an issue, let's figure out what those issues are. Because it's not just about protecting against disease. It's also about what risks come from those vaccines.
- [36:29]
Jillian Michaels
I want to throw this into the mix and see what you think when we talk about adjuvants and metals and so on and so forth. It would seem to me, given the amount of PhDs and MDs that I've had the privilege of interviewing over the past decade, the kids are more vulnerable to these kinds of toxins because their body is developing that. You, you see it with even marijuana, something like marijuana. It's like, well, a child's developing brain can't really take that. It's not great for anybody. But kids are particularly more vulnerable. You talk about off label cancer drugs that are given to kids for gender affirming care. They'll explain that it's going to have a far more negative impact on a developing brain than the brain of an adult male who has prostate cancer. Is there an argument to be made there that a developing body cannot handle, or potentially maybe could not handle adjuvants as well as a fully developed body? It couldn't detox as efficiently that it could interrupt development?
- [37:30]
Dr. Joel Warsh
That makes logical sense to me. I mean, that makes logical sense that the younger you are, the less developed your immune system is, the more that it could be impacted, the weaker your kidneys are and your liver is. So therefore you might not be able to detoxify as well. The counter argument to that from the medical standpoint would be, well, that's when the kids are most immature, so that's when the vaccines would have the most benefit. So that's the kind of counterbalance of that argument. But I don't think your point is unreasonable. I mean, that's what I feel is the younger you are, the more risk you would have from any sort of medication, not just a vaccine. So it comes back to discussions around risks versus benefits, like what are we protecting against and what are the risks and what are those long term risks? Because we really don't know. Like how do you know if you take a vaccine today if that increases your risk for cancer 10 years from now? There's no way to know that.
- [38:18]
Jillian Michaels
That's another thing that like Dr. Lee and Casey Means were discussing with me on a podcast about cancer. They're like, we can't isolate this.
- [38:24]
Dr. Joel Warsh
They don't.
- [38:26]
Jillian Michaels
They're like, as much as you want us to give you an answer, chilling between the crap in the air, the crap in the water, how do you control for this? You know, it's like you're going to remove all the water and the chemicals in the air and the chemicals in the food. Like, you can't isolate one thing, you can't.
- [38:43]
Dr. Joel Warsh
But you could still study vaccinated versus unvaccinated kids and follow them prospectively and see what kind of things you find. It's not going to isolate it to be specific to the vaccines, but the unvaccinated lifestyle, if those kids have a much lower risk of certain cancers or much lower risk of autoimmune condition, that would be really interesting to know. And you can do it. We keep saying we can't do it. I don't know why you can have. There are plenty of people that are going to volunteer, they're unvaccinated kids to do that study. It's obviously going to be, there's going to be some bias there. There's no question there's going to be people that want to volunteer. You can't do it blinded. It's not the best kind of study, but you could certainly do an open label trial, follow kids for 10, 20 years. We've done it with heart disease, we've done it with other things and just see what happens over the long run. Let's get good information because that's the kind of research again that hesitant parents are going to want to see in 15 years. If the autism rates are the same in both groups, it's gonna make more people be confident to get vaccines. If they're wildly different, then that's something that we should know. We shouldn't be running away from this information because we're scared or we think people are just gonna stop vaccinating. We should be trying to make the best possible, safest vaccines. We don't have the safest vaccines we're ever gonna have in the humanity, in humanity forever. Like, we want SAFER vaccines in 10 years than we have from now. And we can only do that if we even have the discussion that there could be a problem. And the companies are not going to study these things. They're going to go and be like, well, let's study our products that are on the market that everybody's getting to see if they might cause a problem. They're not going to do it. Yeah. So who is studying safety?
- [40:09]
Jillian Michaels
That's the game, right?
- [40:10]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Nobody studied it forward. Nobody. Every single trial.
- [40:13]
Jillian Michaels
Right.
- [40:14]
Dr. Joel Warsh
When you're talking about pre licensure trials, they go for a couple months, maybe a year, maybe two years on a great study. They're not five, 10, 15 years down the road. And so the only things that we have long term would be these self reporting systems or medical databases or someone who decides to do a research study, but who's studying hepatitis B versus cancer 15 years later from the vaccine. It takes 15 years to do it. You have to put those things together. You have to even think there's a problem in the first place to do that research.
- [40:42]
Jillian Michaels
Got it.
- [40:42]
Dr. Joel Warsh
It just doesn't exist.
- [40:43]
Jillian Michaels
Before I get to the. The elephant in the room, which is the MRNA tech, you said there's other stuff in there.
- [40:49]
Dr. Joel Warsh
What else is in there in vaccines? Yeah, that's a long list. There are many things in there, but. So they use formaldehyde, they use inactivators, they use buffers. Sometimes they're grown in cultures. I think one of the biggest concerns around vaccines is what they're grown in because they're using human aborted fetal tissue for some of the vaccines.
- [41:08]
Jillian Michaels
Old news.
- [41:09]
Dr. Joel Warsh
It's not old news. So that's how they grow up. So not aborting new babies, they're using old tissue they've used for babies from a long time ago. But they do grow them in culture because you have to grow the viruses in something so they use those cells. So that's where there are certain concerns for some people, the most religion, all religions really say it's not an ethical concern, but certain people still might have ethical concerns. Even some individuals who are vegans. Some, some products use pork porcine for their gelatin. So there, there are reasons that certain specific individuals might have concerns around some of the ingredients in vaccines. I just don't know.
- [41:42]
Jillian Michaels
Formaldehyde isn't even an ethical conversation. As in, like, if I'm vegan, I don't want the pork. Like, formaldehyde is not good. Correct.
- [41:49]
Dr. Joel Warsh
It's not good. But they say it's at the doses, at the amount I know the.
- [41:51]
Jillian Michaels
Do I got you okay? Yeah.
- [41:54]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Very, very small. It's was used to inactivate, which you do want the disease to be inactivated. So that's a good thing. You don't want to get the disease. So they're using it to inactivate it and then they're filtering it out. But there's trace amounts in there. The question is, are those trace amounts significant harmful or not?
- [42:07]
Jillian Michaels
They say no harmful at that stage of life. Harmful if ingest, injected, not ingested, and harmful with regard to the cumulative amount of toxic load that we take on.
- [42:18]
Dr. Joel Warsh
And I think just in general, what's not discussed is the nuance around individual variability, where even if it's a small amount, you could walk by a peanut for some people, they could have a whiff of peanut and they can have a huge anaphylactic response. So what's to say that for some people, even that very, very, very, very tiny amount of formaldehyde couldn't be an issue for them? And if you add more and more vaccines, you increase that compounding risk, where a one in a million chance becomes a one in a hundred thousand risk, becomes a one in ten thousand risk. Because you get 20 vaccines in the first year, 30 vaccines, you're getting all these vaccines. Over time you're increasing. You know, we just added RSV vaccine, Covid vaccines. Vaccines every year.
- [42:53]
Jillian Michaels
Let's discuss that very quickly. So it's like I get 72 vaccines. You don't get 72 vaccines, which get 72. Or it's recommended that you get 72 shots.
- [43:04]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So the, that 72 is a weird number that whoever decided on. It's not a real number per se.
- [43:09]
Jillian Michaels
But I saw like a breakdown. It was like 18 Covid shots, 18 flu shots, 36, then 36 doses.
- [43:15]
Dr. Joel Warsh
It's not totally true anymore because you, you. I can add a flu shot every year. You can add Covid shots. There's an RSV shot. You can have the. So that's antigens. So if you're getting the diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, that would be three of that 72. So you can, you're not getting 70 pokes because some vaccines can have multiple things in them. But that's the amount of antigens, the amount of diseases you're preventing against. If you're getting multiple doses. And that's number is not even correct anymore. It's more like a hundred. If you wanted to play that game.
- [43:41]
Jillian Michaels
I do want to play that game.
- [43:42]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So it's more.
- [43:44]
Jillian Michaels
What is this down here?
- [43:45]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Oh, sometimes I brought in just the amount of vaccines that you could get if you got individualized doses in the first year. So it's like 25ish if you got all the vaccines. So three hepatitis Bs, but you can get a vitamin K and an RSV. You can get three hepatitis Bs, 3D taps, three haemophilus influenzas, three pneumococcuses, three rotaviruses, three polio, one measles, one chickenpox, Covid vaccines, two. You can get flu shots, two. So it's a good chunk of vaccines. And when people see this, sometimes they're like, well, okay, now I understand maybe why some parents are a little bit afraid. They're not anti vaccine, they're just nervous that this seems like a lot to them. Now again, they're not necessarily getting these pokes because there are some combo shots. You can get a bunch of them together if you choose to. But some people don't choose to do it that way and they choose to get single pokes. And this is not like D tap, but this is like you could get like a D tap homophobus polio altogether. That's called pentasil. So this, this, you could get this many shots in the first year, this many pokes if you want individual shots.
- [44:46]
Jillian Michaels
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- [47:59]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Potentially seems like it. Depending on who you ask, I guess.
- [48:03]
Jillian Michaels
But. But I'm asking you, what do you think?
- [48:07]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I'm still not sure. I think that's the crazy part is I don't know anymore. It's so hard to know because you get such differing viewpoints. I mean, I don't think everything that was said before was bull. I think there certainly was a lot of research around MRNA before the MRNA technology came out. Then the COVID happened and then they fast tracked things because it was an emergency and they were worried and they.
- [48:31]
Jillian Michaels
Wanted to get things therapeutics. I mean, they famously demonized Joe Rogan for saying he utilized ivermectin. Do you realize that I have had my entire TikTok destroyed because I posted a TikTok with a gastroenterologist who was suggesting that ivermectin could have been a powerful therapeutic for Covid.
- [48:54]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Yeah, I, I don't.
- [48:55]
Jillian Michaels
And I violated their community and put dangerous disinformation into the world.
- [48:58]
Dr. Joel Warsh
But that was the problem. I don't think the issue was, was in the middle of a deemed emergency doing things faster. I think that's okay. The issue is censoring and not being honest. If you have some sort of emergency, let's say there's an Ebola outbreak. You need a new Ebola vaccine. You don't want to wait three years to get a new bola vaccine. You'll be dead. You need to go faster. So there's nothing wrong with that. But you should not say safe and effective. That to me is the issue. You shouldn't censor, you shouldn't force. You should say, based on the research that we have so far, the benefits seem to outweigh the risks that we've determined. And you don't force people to do it. You offer it to them. You say, we don't know, we might grow a third arm in a few years. We don't really know. But, but what we have found so far seems like it benefits, seems like it decreases your risk of hospitalization, seems like your risk, decreases your risk of death. And so we recommend it. And there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think there's anything wrong with getting something out faster in an emergency. That's what the emergency use is for. But when you demonize medications that have been used forever, when you censor people from asking questions, whether. When you demonize debate and discussion around something which we know happened. I mean, we know it happened. I mean, Mark Zuckerberg said it. They were taking things down from, from the Internet just because they were trying to not promote hesitancy. That is the complete wrong direction. That's why nobody trusts medicine anymore or the CDC or anything, anything else, because they know they've been lied to.
- [50:21]
Jillian Michaels
What do you think about all these podcasts that have all of these doctors which I have avoided? You know, my, my concern is that they would be like the Daryl Cooper of vaccines. I don't know if you're familiar with the like, okay, so it's like, you know, the guy that basically said the Ch. Churchill was also, also partially responsible for ex. Exacerbating World War II. I'm like, eh, you know what? That's just not a hill I need to die on. They can watch these people on much bigger podcasts than mine. And God forbid I get it wrong, you know, I, I will, I will give a platform to, to pretty much anyone, even people, if they, you know, if they confront me with things I don't like, I'm willing to debate it and litigate it and let the audience make their own decisions. But when it comes to kind of life or death stuff, I'm like, you know, like anti. Semitism. No, I don't think so. Or anyway, or, or getting vaccines wrong. But there's no question that we've seen these monster platforms feature doctors or scientists that are now saying like, so many people died from the COVID vaccine and here's the research and so Many young boys got myocarditis and da da da da da is how do you know.
- [51:40]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Who, which one's right. That's what's so difficult. But how do I know? How do we know that's what's so complicated right now? Because they're not talking to each other. You have all these individuals who are saying these things and you have the mainstream medicine. Do you not willing to engage them. Myocarditis we know pretty well, I mean we know that it causes myocarditis. We know the rate is somewhere between 5,000, depends on which study, but somewhere between 5,000 and 100,000. One in 5,000 to one in 100,000. And they still say that it happens more in the disease than happens from the vaccine. So we know that. But that's not what I think most people are concerned about. I think that was what they originally concerned about. I think people are concerned that it's killing people.
- [52:16]
Jillian Michaels
Gosh. I would say both.
- [52:18]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Both. I mean lots of things. But fertility is another concern. There are many things that individuals have.
- [52:25]
Jillian Michaels
Brought up noticeable issues after the vaccine.
- [52:27]
Dr. Joel Warsh
And they were told they were crazy. The mainstream, I mean I've seen this many times, the mainstream research, the literature review still say it doesn't affect fertility, but I. Several people that said it affected their menstrual cycle. Me too, me too. Put them into menopause, those kinds of things. Yeah, I know that it did to people that I know and that doesn't mean that it necessarily did overall, but it just. Anecdotally I can just see what I see. But. So that's what makes it really difficult because you read the published research and then you see something different and you hear some of these really intelligent individuals going on shows and talking about this study or that study and it doesn't jive with the rest of the research. So you don't really know who to listen to. And it makes it really difficult because the mainstream medicine, mainstream science isn't really engaging with a lot of this stuff. They just shut it down and call you an anti vaxxer and call it crazy and they won't have debates and discussion. And that's what I think needs to happen. I think if you are going to have somebody come out and say this, you need somebody equally as smart from people that want to. They don't want to. They have to, they have to.
- [53:23]
Jillian Michaels
It is exceptionally difficult. What I have had to do on the show is have a guest and then another guest and then a guest and then another guest. So it's like, you can have somebody pro Israel, but then you got to get somebody pro Gaza later, because you as a host. I am not an expert in vaccine science. I. I am not an economist. I am not a geopolitical expert. And when you try to get people in to debate it, like, Hotez didn't show up to debate Kennedy.
- [53:52]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I know they have to. I hope they will now.
- [53:55]
Jillian Michaels
Kennedy will.
- [53:56]
Dr. Joel Warsh
He says he will. I hope he will.
- [53:57]
Jillian Michaels
He always. He will show up for it. Hotez won't.
- [54:01]
Dr. Joel Warsh
They have to. They have to now, and I hope so. I was talking to Mark Hyman about this when I was on his podcast, and also I was on Del Big's podcast, very different podcast, but, you know. And he said, well, you know that Secretary Kenny's always offered, and they. They didn't do it. And I'm like, but he's secretary now. It's different. If they want him to have the entire platform and the entire media and say whatever he wants, they can stay silent or they can step up now that he is the one up there, and they can have debates and discussions if they're willing to do it. And they need to hold their own and show why he's wrong. If they believe that he's wrong with.
- [54:33]
Jillian Michaels
The things that he's saying, like, we did the testing. He's like, show it to me. Nobody can show it to him.
- [54:38]
Dr. Joel Warsh
And that's where you go back to the autism stuff, right? Well, that's where.
- [54:41]
Jillian Michaels
Okay, so that's my next one. So that's the top. You know what's funny is I find myself dying on hills that I never would have died on. But when you're in the middle of an interview and they're like, well, we know that it doesn't cause autism. I'm like, actually, we don't know that. We actually don't know that it's been robustly tested. No, it hasn't. Has not.
- [55:04]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So.
- [55:04]
Jillian Michaels
So. So let's look at, like, the insane rise in autism, the insane rise in autoimmune conditions. Like, lay that out for me. When did this start? Kennedy says it's somewhere in the 80s. They can track it back to. It was exponential. And has it or has it not been debunked?
- [55:23]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So statistically first. So if you go back, it was maybe 100,000, maybe 1 in 10,000, then around 2,000, about 1 in 150 to 1 in 250, and now it's about 1 in 31. And in California, it's 1 in 12.5 boys. So that is A astronomical rise over a few decades. The first part of the debate is, are we just noticing it more? Are we just. Is the categorization different? Were there a bunch of people that were autistic before that we just never diagnosed? And I think that's partly true. I think it's partly true. I mean, you can tell there are for sure. You can tell that they have severe autism. You can't always tell if they have mild autism. And back then, they weren't necessarily categorized. We're much more concerned about autism these days. We're talking about it a lot more. There are many people that were not diagnosed, that were diagnosed later in life. So I think in terms of the mild autism, in terms of, like, very, very functional, but maybe have some issues with communication that that is true for sure. We're diagnosing it more now, no question about it, because we have screening tools. We do a lot more.
- [56:24]
Jillian Michaels
Okay.
- [56:25]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So I think that's a part of it.
- [56:26]
Jillian Michaels
Okay.
- [56:26]
Dr. Joel Warsh
But we definitely don't have 1 in 12.5 adults, males that have autism in California. It's insane. You could look around, you look at any school, you look at any playground. There are many kids with autism. That was not the way that it was before. We have much more severe autism. It's like 25, 30% severe autism. The rate of severe autism is rising. There's no reason why we have to be so angry about this conversation. You could have a better diagnosis, and you can also have it happening more, and we can try to figure out why. Why don't we want to figure out why for those people that need our help.
- [56:54]
Jillian Michaels
I just had this argument with a New York Times reporter who I'm sure is doing a hit piece on me. If it doesn't turn out to be a hit piece, it'll be a miracle. But she's like, well, you know, you said that autism, they. They haven't done robust testing for autism, and they have. And I was like, first of all, the K. Kennedy said that. I'm telling you that. Don't you want to get to the bottom of it? And we have yet to get to the bottom of it. You point me to the study where we've gotten to the bottom of it. Yeah, go point me to that study, please.
- [57:26]
Dr. Joel Warsh
When we are in training, we are taught that it's settled. That's what I thought. I thought there was so much robust research because you hear it over. I'll get to what it actually is.
- [57:36]
Jillian Michaels
Okay.
- [57:36]
Dr. Joel Warsh
But I'm telling you what I thought. Got it. Okay. Sorry. When I was even going to write this book, I still thought there was lots of research that must be out there, good studies, robust research. And what I was aiming to do with the book was to show both sides, right? So I thought I was going to show all these really good studies on autism that show that vaccines don't cause autism. And then I would also show the other studies, like, this is why people are saying that it's not settled. There are some other pretty good studies. Like, it's both sides. When you actually go look at the research, which you have to do for yourself and you can't just trust what other people have said. It doesn't exist at all. It's insane. Like, the only things that we have are on MMR and thimerosal, the mercury component. We haven't studied any of the other vaccines against autism. You get dtep, polio, Hep B, you get all these vaccines. In the first year we studied the MMR because of the Andrew Wakefield research, which was concerned about the MMR causing autism. So they tried to debunk, tell people.
- [58:30]
Jillian Michaels
Who Andrew Wakefield is, just in case.
- [58:32]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Andrew Wakefield was a researcher back in the 80s 90s who did those big studies you've all heard of that were debunked where he linked potentially MMR to autism. That was kind of the first big wave of, of debunking around that. And so that's why we do have some research around. Mr. We have pretty decent research around MMR at this point.
- [58:50]
Jillian Michaels
Yeah, MMR is the one. But then I'm like, go to hep B, what do you got?
- [58:53]
Dr. Joel Warsh
But we have nothing else. And you, you hear testimony from people saying, well, okay, does hep B cause autism? No, it doesn't. What research do you have to show that? I don't have any research. We have no research to show that it does, therefore it doesn't. It doesn't. So it's a circular thinking, and that's what's going on. And, and I did not think that was going to be the case. And I don't think most doctors know that. We're just told it's been debunked, it's settled, and it couldn't be farther from the truth. Because if you want to do an epidemiological study or you want to do something where you're saying, this, this has been debunked, you need really good research. You need prospective trials, you need vaccinated versus unvaccinated, you @ least need some good epidemiological data retrospectively and we don't even have that. We don't have big studies that look at big databases which you could do in a few hours and you can say look at the vaccinated kids, look at the unvaccinated kids, look at the partially vaccinated kids. What are the rates of autism? You don't even have that. That would be front page news if it showed that, that it doesn't cause autism. But we don't have that. You look at even Paul Offit's book where he talks about vaccines don't cause autism and it's separated by MMR and thimerosal and that's the list of the studies and there isn't anything else. If it existed, it would be there. So the reason why it's been debunked is because nothing proves that vaccine causes autism. So we can't say vaccines cause autism. We can't say anything, right? We can't say anything. And it's so insane.
- [60:14]
Jillian Michaels
We don't know yet.
- [60:15]
Dr. Joel Warsh
We just don't know. We have to do that research. We should do that research. It may be true that vaccines have nothing to do with autism, but when you give all these vaccines in the first year, how can you categorically say they have nothing to do with it? Maybe they have something to do within a certain subset, maybe they increase your risk in a susceptible child, maybe they have absolutely nothing to do with it. But you cannot say it's been debunked. It's insane. I've never been more shocked in my life and it puts me in the villain place because now I'm a doctor saying that it's not been debunked, but it just is what it is, but that it just hasn't. And I don't know why we would say that, wouldn't we want to know if, again, if vaccines don't do have something to do with autism, don't we want to know that that doesn't mean we're going to stop vaccinated. We figure out why, we change up the schedule, we do something different, we figure out what ingredient in there might be related to it and we change it and we make it better, just like we've done with other things. It's not anti science to be concerned. And there's so many parents that have the exact same story. So many parents say the same thing and these are not, they're called anti vaxxers. This is a parent who took their kid to get a vaccine. They took their kid to get a vaccine. They so trusted in science. And then their experience was they got a vaccine, their kid changed that day. It could be true, could be not true, but that is good, valuable information that you take all of those parents, you look into it, you figure out what happened and if it's related to vaccines or not. And if it is, you stop gaslighting them and you start to figure out what is actually going on.
- [61:38]
Jillian Michaels
I have heard that a lot. By the way. You know who actually is like far left and has said something similar is De Niro. Like, well, it's something, I've seen it.
- [61:47]
Dr. Joel Warsh
A lot of people had experience with their own kids or their kids friends. And when you see it yourself, when you see a kid developing what you consider normally for a year or two years and then they get a vaccine that day and something changes, you're naturally gonna say, maybe it was the vaccine, maybe it wasn't. Maybe you had a heart attack that day and had nothing to do with the vaccine. But if a whole bunch of people have heart attacks the same afternoon as getting a vaccine, you should certainly look into it.
- [62:09]
Jillian Michaels
Heart attack.
- [62:09]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Well, I'm just, I'm just saying like if.
- [62:11]
Jillian Michaels
Oh, I see, I see.
- [62:12]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I'm saying like if.
- [62:13]
Jillian Michaels
Yes, I understand. Again, falling.
- [62:14]
Dr. Joel Warsh
You messed up. Just because somebody has a heart attack, you have to do the vaccine. Doesn't mean the vaccine causes it. But if, okay, millions of people get a heart attack the same that they get a vaccine, shouldn't you say, hey, maybe the vaccine's causing heart attacks today?
- [62:24]
Jillian Michaels
Is it even possible though? If I was to argue that it's the vaccine and I saw a change immediately, could a change occur immediately?
- [62:33]
Dr. Joel Warsh
It could if it was completely unrelated. So just imagine, let's just say that every kid's gonna. If. If it has nothing to do with it. If you're gonna notice autism the first time, at some point you're gonna notice it and you're getting a whole bunch of vaccines. So some people are gonna notice it right after.
- [62:50]
Jillian Michaels
Got it.
- [62:50]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So just for same thing as like with a heart attack, right? People die of heart attacks. So just, just take a 50 year old. Some 50 year olds are gonna die of heart attacks. If you're getting a vaccine every two months, some people are gonna die on the same day as they get a vaccine. It has nothing to do with it. If they didn't get a vaccine that morning, they would have still died that afternoon. So you might blame it on the vaccine, but might have nothing to do with it. That's causation versus correlation. When they're Talking about those two things, of course. But if a lot of people are having heart attacks the same day as they die, that's a good study to do. So we should not just assume that when you have thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of parents saying the same story of my kid got a vaccine and something changed, that should perk up research and science to say, okay, let's listen to these moms. Let's listen to these parents. Let's study this to the best of our ability and not say that it's been debunked when it absolutely has not.
- [63:41]
Jillian Michaels
Okay, I want to talk about the difference in various populations. So two examples. Young boys are more prone to the myocarditis vaccine injury. Why? Second example, I remember watching Kennedy's confirmation hearing, and forgive me, I cannot remember this, the name of this senator, and I have referenced this several times, but she's a black woman and she's grilling him.
- [64:16]
Dr. Joel Warsh
You saw it.
- [64:17]
Jillian Michaels
Okay. Over the studies that came, I believe, out of. I think it was Poland. But at this point, I don't recall. Maybe you will remember that black people have a better immune system. And so he had suggested, because arguably, I guess, young black boys were more prone to vaccine injuries, he had put forward that we explore the research. Because black people have a more robust immune system. So could they.
- [64:40]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I think it was less. I think it was the other way, but either way, I think it was more. I can't remember, but I think it was.
- [64:45]
Jillian Michaels
It doesn't matter either, okay, that something about, like, that the vaccines could. Could be triggering them differently. And he wanted to explore it. And she basically insinuated that he was like, a little bit racist, a little bit crazy. And he's like, this is. This is solid data that we're looking at an interview with Dr. Judy Mikovitz where you said the following, and I quote, we should not be giving black people the same vaccine schedule that's given to whites because their immune system is better than ours. Can you please explain what you meant?
- [65:22]
Dr. Joel Warsh
There's a series of studies, I think.
- [65:24]
Jillian Michaels
Most of them by Poland, that show.
- [65:28]
Dr. Joel Warsh
That to particular antigens that blacks have a much stronger reaction.
- [65:34]
Jillian Michaels
There's differences in reaction to different products by different races. So I have 17 seconds left. Let me just ask you then. So what different vaccine schedule would you say I should have received? What different vaccine schedule should I have received? I mean, the pollen article suggests.
- [65:55]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Blacks need fewer antigens than.
- [65:57]
Jillian Michaels
This is so dangerous.
- [65:58]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So you get the same measles vaccine.
- [66:00]
Jillian Michaels
Mr. Kennedy, with all due respect, that is so dangerous. Your voice would be a voice that parents would listen to. That is so dangerous. I will be voting against your nomination because your views are dangerous to our state and to our country.
- [66:14]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I mean, do you think science is dangerous?
- [66:17]
Jillian Michaels
Senator, this is published, peer reviewed studies. I yield looking at what is going to make somebody having it, like my son, have an injury to the COVID vaccine, but maybe not my mom. What is that? Do we know?
- [66:37]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I, I don't think we know, but I think it's genetic variability. I mean, we're all different, we're all exposed to different things and there's sometimes it's luck of where the vaccine's injected, how you react to it. We're all different people.
- [66:46]
Jillian Michaels
Where are the vaccines injected?
- [66:48]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I mean, it could be injected into a vein by accident. It could be in a different part of your body. You know, everyone's different, right?
- [66:53]
Jillian Michaels
So why does that matter?
- [66:55]
Dr. Joel Warsh
If it gets right into a vein or an artery, then it has more access to go places easier. It's supposed to being, it's supposed to be in a muscle, right. When you're.
- [67:02]
Jillian Michaels
So if it gets into a vein. So then why aren't they like doing that thing where they pull out to see if there's blood?
- [67:08]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Theoretically you're supposed to do that, but most people don't.
- [67:10]
Jillian Michaels
That's never happened to me one time.
- [67:12]
Dr. Joel Warsh
It's generally not, not done. I mean, it's assumed that you're putting, you're putting in the areas where it's not going to, to be in a vein. But it could still theoretically happen. But either way, everyone's different. So that's the simple answer. People are different, cultures are different. And so I don't know why it would be inherently racist to, or anything classist or sexist to study people differently. Vaccines are going to affect cultures differently. They're going to affect locations of the world differently. If you have a concern around a certain population, you know, men or women or African Americans versus Asia, I mean, there could be differences in different vaccines of how people react to things. There's no, there's no reason to be upset about that. I think if there is a specific concern because of some researcher data, then why wouldn't you also explore that? You could do sub analyses within research to look at specific populations to see how it affects them differently, right? There is, there's old research that shows that, that maybe African Americans. This was one of the big controversies originally in the autism research where William Thompson was one of the researchers on one of the original studies on autism and he Came out later and said that they found that there was an increased risk for black African American young children for autism. And they took that out of the research. And he was apologizing for that and said they changed their protocol after the fact. So there is precedent for this. There is precedent for different populations to be affected differently by vaccines or by medications. Of course, why wouldn't it be? Why wouldn't we be affected differently? Men are affected differently than women.
- [68:40]
Jillian Michaels
Then why is there a one size fits all approach to this?
- [68:43]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Because this is the easiest way to do it. It's the easiest way to do it. It's the way that it's been studied before. And I don't think we necessarily had the technology like we have now. But this is where, when we hear the NIH and the CDC talking about, you know, using new technologies, I think that's good. Like that's what we have to do. We have to start using some of this new technology. I think that's, that's, that's useful. I mean, we, we have to stop assuming that everybody's the same. We have to stop assuming that there's a one size fits all there. It's not anti vaccine to be worried about reactions and to say, okay, what are the genetics that make you most at risk? Are there some supplements or herbs we could take? Are there some things we could do? What makes you at highest risk to have a reaction? Let's minimize that risk. The more we can minimize the risk for a reaction, the more people are going to be confident to do it. And right now, so many parents that are hesitant feel like the only thing that, that anybody cares about is money. The only thing that we care about is the doctors care about making money from getting vaccines. The companies just care about doing more vaccines. The, our three letter organizations just care about getting more vaccines and they don't care about safety. And I think if you brought safety back in the conversation and you sort.
- [69:51]
Jillian Michaels
Of say, look, trying to bring safety back in the conversation, and they're calling him crazy, which makes people more.
- [69:58]
Dr. Joel Warsh
But this is the first time we're even hearing this conversation happening. And I think at least that part of it's very, very good. We have to have a lot more of that to let parents understand that safety is part of the conversation. It's not just about pharmaceutical companies. We're pushing back. We're going to make sure that they're safest products possible. If we do that, then I think parents will be more confident to get vaccines. But I don't think that's been a part of the conversation and anytime Secretary Kenney talks about it, he gets a lot of pushback. He needs to be very careful with his words because sometimes he's very hyperbolic on some things and he needs to work with doctors and I don't think he's done a great job of that yet. I think he really needs to like start bringing in the doctors and start working as a team. Those ones he is, but they're working together. But I think like the big universities, the people that are pushing back, it's obviously not easy, but it's going to be really hard to make change. If he says one thing and then three days later the CDC says the opposite. I mean, that's really bad. It looks really bad on medicine. It's really embarrassing when you say, oh, we're taking it off the schedule and the CDC says, no, we're not like that. That can't happen. They have to sit down, they have to be unified. And people already have the lowest trust in medicine they've ever had. Before the pandemic, it was 70 plus percent of people trusted doctors and three letter agencies. And now it's under 40%. We have the highest rate of kids that are unvaccinated, the highest rates of hesitancy, the highest rates of exemptions. People don't trust medicine anymore and they certainly don't trust vaccines. And we're not going to get to a better place unless we start having open conversation. It has to be nuanced and they have to work together.
- [71:26]
Jillian Michaels
It's like, I'll give you, I'll give you an example. I, I, I've referenced this fluoride thing quite a bit recently in different interviews. Again, fluoride, not a hill I wanted to die on. Got in an argument with a friend over this because she has a thyroid condition. So it was simply asking like, are you filtering your water? Because I've interviewed a couple of endocrinologists in the past that wondered if maybe outside of all the xenoestrogens and all the things, right? If maybe it was playing a role in this explosion of Hashimoto's and Graves disease that we're seeing with women. Thyroid conditions through the roof. Just like autoimmune, just like all the things, right? Okay, so just simply like, are you filtering your water? Because there's some potential maybe that fluoride could be impacting the way your thyroid uses iodine.
- [72:20]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Blah, blah, blah.
- [72:20]
Jillian Michaels
Looked at me like I had 10 heads because it came from Kennedy. Now I'm like, but have you done any research into it? My brother's a dentist and he's like, oh, there's robust amount of data. And I was like, for eating it, for drinking it. There actually isn't, there's not. And in fact like when you go through like how much data suggests it's lowered kids IQs and you know, that it's disrupted thyroid function and that it's about applying it topically and that, that it can be toxic at a certain dose. And this is a dentist though, who thought I had 10 heads and didn't even know where the fluoride in the water came from, which is toxic waste.
- [73:03]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I, I think that healthcare is really slow to change and we assume that what we're taught is gospel. And so you kind of take it and you just parrot it and you keep discussing and you never really look into it for yourself. And I think that's a big issue. I think we just assume that we know things and, and that's what's happened and people have just dug in their heels and now, especially with someone like Secretary Kennedy, no matter what he says, people just kind of push back and it's like, look, you don't have to agree on everything, just let's figure out what we agree on. We're all trying to have healthier kids. Let's work on those things. The things we disagree on. Again, we need to have debate and discussion openly. We have lots of technology now. We could do it and we could, we could publish, we could publish the research on flora, we could publish new literature, views on this. We can go through what do we know recently. We could do the same thing with autism and vaccines like we can publish for the doctors. Okay, here's what we actually know. Here's what the research, here's what you were told, here's what the research shows.
- [73:58]
Jillian Michaels
What do we actually know? That's actually. I was. What do you know for sure? I mean, honestly, I was even going to ask you about efficacy because it's like, I swear to God. Sorry, this is ridiculous. I've never had this happen before. But what do we actually know? Because the COVID shot doesn't even friggin work. It's not a vaccine. So what the hell is that? What do we know? Anything?
- [74:21]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Well, the, the research that we have still shows that it does decrease your risk of hospitalization and death. Most of the research shows that. So I still think that the best.
- [74:30]
Jillian Michaels
That was the first time I got it without the vaccine.
- [74:32]
Dr. Joel Warsh
But the overall, it's looking at overall trends because of my mom, maybe. And so the mainstream research still shows. It's debatable, right? It's debatable because people say different things. But if you're going with the mainstream research, what would be quoted by the CDC or the, you know, the FDA or any of the organizations up until maybe now, they would say that you look at the mainstream research and it shows that it decreases hospitalization and death even more recently. Okay, so it still does. But again, that's not the question. The question is, at what cost? That's the question. I don't think for most vaccines, the argument is, does it work? I think they do work to some degree. How much? Which study? Does it decrease your chance of whooping cough? Sure it does. I think it does. If you can.
- [75:12]
Jillian Michaels
I'll tell you on whooping cough, this is where I. I really got a nice little course correction, is that my wife didn't get it, my kids didn't get it, my business partner didn't get it. And they all can point to when they had their last dtap, and I don't recall, right?
- [75:25]
Dr. Joel Warsh
And. And most people don't think about it until they get sick with it. And you're like, okay, well, do I really need the haemophilus influenza? But if your kid gets meningitis and goes to the hospital, you might have a different opinion. If you get whooping cough and you get super sick, you might have a little bit different opinion on the benefit of the vaccines. Most people don't see the benefit, so they think, oh, well, it's just risk. But it's not just risk. If everybody stops getting some of these vaccines, some of these diseases will come back. And whooping cough, for most people, it's not that big a deal, but it's not fun, but it can be. And if a baby gets it, they could die. So I think that we have that kind of understanding. People have just forgot it because we haven't seen a lot of it. But when it happens to you or it affects someone that you know. But that doesn't negate risk versus benefits. It doesn't negate that. Both things could be true, that a vaccine could protect you from whooping cough, but you could also get some sort of serious complication on whooping cough vaccine. And so each person needs that good information to say, okay, my risk of getting whooping cough is this. If I get whooping cough, here's what might happen, and if I get the vaccine, here's what might happen, and here's what my protection is. But we don't have a good picture of the risks from the vaccine. So it's really hard, I think, to make that wait for yourself. Because, you know, for example, if there was some magical pill you could give your kids that would protect them against every disease, they would never get whooping cough, they would never get polio, they never get any disease in the world, and there were no side effects. Everyone would run to get that. It's a perfect vaccine. That's not the way the world works. It's risks and benefits. So the question isn't, does the DTaP vaccine work? It's does it work at what cost? And both sides are arguing different things. One side's arguing the costs are too high, especially when talking about COVID People are saying the cost is too high, it's increasing risk of death, it's increasing risk of fertility problems. The other side saying, no, no, no, no, no. It works really well. You're going to prevent death, you're going to prevent disease. And they don't talk to each other. And you're not weighing that risk versus benefits. The doctor side sees, we want to prevent this disease. We don't want this one kid to get measles and die. Right? We don't want kids to get measles and die. But if that vaccine is causing all sorts of other problems, then what is the risk versus benefits? And if everyone stops getting the measles vaccine, then more people get measles, more people get sick and die. So that's a risk where you have to risk, weigh yourself and also society. Those are difficult questions. So I think that's where people just don't talk to each other because it's not that simple. It's nuance. It really is nuance. And we don't have a good understanding of the long term side effects from these vaccines. I said it a few times, but like that. I think that's really the key to the individuals who are frustrated around vaccines or want more robust safety. Because they say, well, are these vaccines safe? Are they a good thing to do? And then they say, I don't know. Because it depends what the risks are.
- [77:57]
Jillian Michaels
If it doesn't, I already know the audience is gonna be like, but what is the answer? Like, people just want, yes, they want it. And that's what black and white do. Don't.
- [78:04]
Dr. Joel Warsh
There is no black and white. That's why the vaccine book, this book is gray. Because there is no black and white. We don't know. We don't know. You have to wait. We don't have the answer.
- [78:11]
Jillian Michaels
You don't. But in here, you do tell them what to weigh out in order to make a decision.
- [78:17]
Dr. Joel Warsh
And you have to make a decision based on what we know. But a big part of this is opening up the discussion to being open to talking about what we don't know. Like when you talk about autism, if we continue to say it's been debunked, we'll never have a better answer. If we say what it actually is, which is we don't know. I'm not giving you the answer for whether it does or doesn't cause autism, but if you understand the landscape of the research, then people can go, oh, yeah, that's not that controversial. Oh, he's not a crazy crackpot. Oh, this person talking, you know, Secretary Kennedy on, on the news isn't saying something crazy. He's actually saying something true. He wants more research and we need more research. But they think it's been debunked.
- [78:54]
Jillian Michaels
Yeah.
- [78:55]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So they call him crazy. And it's not crazy what he's saying. It's correct. But you have to know that fact. If you don't know what the research is, if you've just only ever been told it's been debunked and you hear it over and over and over again, that's what you think it is.
- [79:08]
Jillian Michaels
I know. And then it's like, point me. Oh, we've got it. But I just had, like I said, just had this argument with the New York Times. We've done so much research. It could point me to the problem.
- [79:15]
Dr. Joel Warsh
That's what pushed me to put. But that's. I would never have written a vaccine book two years ago. I never thought of it. I would never thought of. I was very straight laced. I think, you know, I'm very lucky. I met my wife. She's very natural minded. So it opened up my eyes to a lot of things over the years. And then just watching Covid.
- [79:29]
Jillian Michaels
Yeah, Covid. Covid was a big frigging red pill.
- [79:32]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I thought I could. Could add this to the conversation. I thought I could add to bait, which I think we need.
- [79:38]
Jillian Michaels
Um, I, I want to ask you, you know, Kennedy has referenced something in the 80s, something, something in the 80s that made autism begin to jump, explode at an exponential pace. Do you think that's true? And if so, it would be kind of. Couldn't you look at like, all right, what was introduced when. Chemicals to food, maybe chemicals to vaccines, maybe a new vaccine, maybe. I know that. 1986. I'm not trying to be conspiratorial. Here, but that pharmaceutical companies were given blanket immunity in 86 from the Reagan administration. Is there something in the 80s, or do you think it's just kind of this, like, random conspiracy theory?
- [80:22]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I don't think it's a random conspiracy theory. I think we became more aware of it, we had more diagnosis. But then a lot has changed over the last 40 years. And so I don't think it's that easy to point to one thing because. And it's not one thing. There's no way it's one thing. I've taken care of kids with autism that never had a vaccine. So if you just assume.
- [80:36]
Jillian Michaels
I've heard that one, too.
- [80:37]
Dr. Joel Warsh
If you just assume that it's all from vaccines, that's not true.
- [80:39]
Jillian Michaels
It's.
- [80:40]
Dr. Joel Warsh
It's gotta be some sort of accumulation of chemicals and toxins. Genetics, our environment, it's all sorts of things. I mean, autism isn't one thing. I don't think it's one thing. I think it's many things. I think you can have certain genetics that leads you to have those characteristics. You could have some sort of infection or some sort of disease that could trigger it. Maybe it's a chemical. I think it's different things for different people. And we call it the same thing, but for us to just assume that it's just normal, that's the problem. Something's happening and we have to look at. And the answer to your question is, why don't we know? Why aren't we studying it? Why aren't we looking to. I mean, we are, I think, I hope now, I. I think again, like, Secretary Kenny's gonna be careful with his words. You can't say we're gonna know the answer in six months.
- [81:20]
Jillian Michaels
That's ridiculous.
- [81:21]
Dr. Joel Warsh
We're not gonna know that. And I don't think that's what I'm saying.
- [81:23]
Jillian Michaels
He's ending Russia, Ukraine, day one, and then they crucify him because it's not over. And you're like, why set yourself up to fail like this?
- [81:29]
Dr. Joel Warsh
And I think what he meant, hopefully what he meant is we're gonna be looking at this over the next six months. We're gonna look at the research. We're going to have a bunch of things we can point to, and we're going to do more research from there to look into some of those things that could be the highest, most likely things that that could be going on. That's what I think he meant. But, you know, if you say things like that, it discredits the rest of what you're saying, which is good. So I think that's where the nuance is really important. But it's also probably hard to have a camera on you all day and say everything exactly correct all the time.
- [81:58]
Jillian Michaels
But it's, listen, look, I think you're not wrong about that. You see a little bit of it with Trump where it's like, no, no, it says Ms. 13. And the reporter's like, no, it doesn't. Trump's like, but it does. And you're like, actually it doesn't. It's decoding to coat marijuana leaf M, smiley face S. You know, like you're, it's just, you could tell that like they, they like, no, but they're so almost beleaguered that they make these mistakes and don't say the exact right word. And the report has like improper citations.
- [82:33]
Dr. Joel Warsh
And it just, that was bad too.
- [82:35]
Jillian Michaels
But I'm like, come on. Yeah, come on. When you have all of these people waiting to tear you to pieces, bulletproof yourself, who in the world is around this guy that the bed so bad on that?
- [82:53]
Dr. Joel Warsh
I'm like, I don't know.
- [82:54]
Jillian Michaels
You know, and people are, are reluctant to utilize common sense one way or another. Right. So sounds to me like you're saying, you know, come off the high horse and open your mind. No matter what side you're on, new people are, they're all bad. You've seen this in Maha, which is so disappointing. You know, Maha, it just, it's like there's so much drama and there's so much infighting, which is a real bummer. It's like you get the food based people that want to clean up, you know, ag and food. And then you've got the vax people that just want vaccines, you know, them all vaccines must be gone. And it's like, then you've got the people that the hotels is all, vaccines are the best thing ever and there's nothing to worry about. It's all been debunked. Where is that middle for you right now? Like, what is your hope with this book?
- [83:47]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So one of the things that, that I've seen over the years with, with my wife, she's a lawyer and she's. Does she does a lot of mediations or, or her tough job. Yeah. Do that as a family lawyer. And you have to find the common ground. Like we're not going to necessarily get everyone to agree. Exactly. But we have to figure out some sort of middle ground. Show people, both sides, show them the other side of the argument. So they at least understand where they're coming from and we can research it, we can start to find some sort of middle ground discussion. And the literal point of the book was to talk about vaccines. Just literally have the word be allowable on social media and have discussion and debates and hope that we can come together on shows like this and talk about vaccines, because nobody did. People just didn't talk about vaccines forever. I know I didn't. Mark Hyman had the first episode in a very long time talking about vaccines and just going on things that are like, very left, very right, very whatever, it doesn't really matter to me. But just having the discussion and letting people ask questions and going on that journey with parents and saying, like, here's what I know, here's what I found. All right, let's discuss this. I don't have an agenda, per se, of what I want people to do. I just want to talk about it. And I think that that's what we need right now.
- [84:59]
Jillian Michaels
Do you tell them how to talk about it with their own doctor?
- [85:01]
Dr. Joel Warsh
That isn't there as well. But it's hard. I mean, I think that's very hard.
- [85:05]
Jillian Michaels
But they look at you like you have 10 heads.
- [85:06]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Some of them, I believe, some don't. But that's part of the key, I think, everybody bringing it out of the shadows and being okay with talking about it. Like, you know, I get comments all the time like, oh, I read, I started reading your book and it's fantastic. I don't really feel comfortable posting about it. But, like, thank you. Thank you so much. And it's like, until we can get to that point where people can feel comfortable being like, this is something you should talk about. Let's, let's, like, it can't be controversial to have a discussion about vaccines. It can't be controversial to talk to your doctor about vaccines and not feel like you're gonna get kicked out, but people do. But the more that people start to have intelligent conversations around this, I think it's going to push the medical community to open up their eyes a little bit. And, and I certainly know lots of doctors have reached out to be. I thought when I did this, I was going to get all sorts of hate. It hasn't really happened yet. It's still May, but it's been out for a few weeks now. And, and, and really nobody's been yelling at me or saying that it's like super crazy, that kind of stuff, which is good. I mean, that's a huge difference than just a few months ago where it probably would have been de platformed and, and you know, maybe lost a license or whatever. And again, I'm not seeing anything controversial. I'm just literally pointing out what the research is and it can be taken as controversial, like what we talked about with autism. It could be taken very controversially, but if you actually go look at it, then you'd would be like, oh, that's what it says. Maybe it's not debunked. No, maybe it's not like that. That's what I want. I think if people realize what it actually says, they wouldn't have so much anger towards someone like Secretary Kennedy and they might be more open to some of the things he has to say and then we could start to move forward in a little better direction.
- [86:37]
Jillian Michaels
What's interesting though is part of me is like, okay, put your kid in the study for glyphosate. On the eat glyphosate side, put your kid in the eat petroleum based food dye study. Like, go ahead and eat that truckload of petroleum based food diet that you say is like, oh no, we can go to do that and then drink the atrazine in the water and then have fluoride tablets and like if I put all of this on the table in front of a person, be it a parent or a child, you wouldn't, you'd be like, wait, what? You want me to drink that chemical and eat that chemical and inject that chemical and do. Nobody would do it. But when it's like somehow in a junk food they like or in a shot that's been. And by the way, I'm not anti vaxx either. I just, I'm the same. I'm like, obviously there's something here. Let's try to make this as safe as possible. So nobody gets a vaccine injury or they're greatly mitigated. But the way that they have been politicized is extraordinarily unfortunate because there's nothing.
- [87:45]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Political about vaccines, there's nothing political about health. I mean, I'm glad a little bit that it's became a part of politics this year because at least it brought out into the open. But it's not political in any way. It has to come back out of politics because there's nothing that one side or the kids are not political. It doesn't make any difference. We need to focus on what actually works, what minimizes their risk, what helps them to be the healthiest possible. But we also have to have a little common sense and say like, if I'M not going to drink that or dump a tub of it in my food, then maybe it's not the best for me. I hear some of the other side's arguments. Like sometimes they'll say, well, just because you don't use this doesn't mean the other thing that's more natural is better. That might also be true. The other thing that we think is better might actually be worse. But we, we have to start somewhere. We have to start with, here are the things that have some maybe logical consequences, or maybe we don't want to be drinking a whole tub of glyphosate.
- [88:33]
Jillian Michaels
So let's, I'll take beetroot powder over red number three.
- [88:37]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Let's try to find the more natural things and let's see if we can find maybe some middle ground or maybe some things that are healthier. And if you disagree, then okay, let's, let's talk about it. Let's see why you think something isn't healthier. But it's not scare tactics to talk about. I don't know why. Like, so much of it's like, oh, we're trying to scare people. Maha is trying to scare people. No, they want people to be healthier. You just maybe don't agree with how they're going about it. Maybe you don't agree with the thing they're trying to pull, or maybe you don't think that this dye is so harmful. But at least we're trying. At least people are trying to do something. People are clearly not healthy. So exactly, we have to do something.
- [89:10]
Jillian Michaels
About it up till now.
- [89:12]
Dr. Joel Warsh
So it's going to go like this. And maybe we're going to pull out a diet and we're going to put in a new diet that's worse. That might happen too. But let's move towards more health and maybe instead of just, you know, crapping upon all the people who are trying to do something about it, join forces, say, well, here's where you're wrong. Here's where you're right. Let's do this. Here's where you hear people talk about, like, organic food versus not organic food. And maybe this, maybe it's dissolved. We shouldn't even worry about organic. It's like, okay, well, let's prove that that is true in some way because we need to do something about our food. We don't want more chemicals. We want fewer chemicals. So let's figure out how do we get more local gardens, how do we get more, how do we get fewer chemicals, how do we get more local produce. Like, let's. Let's get that. That's fine. I have no problem with what you're saying, but we have to do all those things, so let's not argue about it. Let's just figure out how to get healthier kids. But right now, people are just getting all these likes for hating on everybody, and it's. It's not good.
- [90:02]
Jillian Michaels
No, it's not. Doc, I appreciate you and all you're doing. Where do we get the book? Between a shot and a hard place, tackling difficult vaccine questions with balanced data and clarity, you can get it all the.
- [90:15]
Dr. Joel Warsh
You know, all the regular places, Amazon, the shop book, just in case someone has, like, you know what? I don't have it online. You actually have to come to my house and pick it up from my garage. That's the only place you could get it because I don't want the men in the black coats to see it. And where do we get more from you? Where can we find it? Rjelgator on Instagram.
- [90:31]
Jillian Michaels
Rex, you're fantastic. Thank you so, so much. I really appreciate the conversation. I appreciate all you're doing.
- [90:36]
Dr. Joel Warsh
Thank you.
- [90:38]
Jillian Michaels
Thank you so much for watching. If you enjoyed the podcast, please, like, comment, subscribe, and share. And make sure to let me know what guests you want to see on in the future.