All Christopher Nolan Films Ranked (Worst to Best)

Summary

Kermode on Film: Ranking All Christopher Nolan Films (Worst to Best)

Host: Mark Kermode
Guest: Jack Howard
Date: July 7, 2026
Setting: The Sun Pub, London’s West End

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Episode Overview

Mark Kermode and Jack Howard convene in London’s Sun Pub, dressed variously for the evening’s premiere of Christopher Nolan’s highly anticipated new film, The Odyssey. The central focus: an in-depth, impassioned ranking of all Christopher Nolan films from worst to best. With playful banter, insightful critiques, and some hard-won reversals of opinion since their last ranking in 2018, the two cinephiles dissect what makes Nolan’s films memorable—or not—while anticipating where The Odyssey might slot into their lists.

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Housekeeping, Banter, and Pre-Premiere Jitters

• Atmosphere:
  The episode opens with Mark and Jack discussing their dress for the evening (Mark in a black suit, Jack in a salmon shirt and white trousers) as they prepare to attend separate premieres for The Odyssey. The contrast in their attire sets a breezy, playful tone.

  • “If you’re not watching this on YouTube … what you won’t know is that I, from head to foot, am in a black suit. Jack is dressed in what can only be described as Alan Partridge sports casual.” — Mark [02:10]

• Premiere Plans:
  They humorously untangle why they ended up at different Odyssey premieres—Mark at the IMAX, Jack at the Odeon Leicester Square—due to crossed wires with invitations, culminating in romantic justification from Jack:

  • “Because with you sitting next to me, it’ll be like I’m at the IMAX.” — Jack [09:23]

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The Nolan Film Rankings: Overview

Mark and Jack agree (mostly) to rank Nolan’s 12 released features (The Odyssey is not included). Mark opts for a top 10, Jack for a full 12.

Both highlight their evolving perceptions since earlier rankings, especially for divisive entries like Interstellar and The Dark Knight Rises.

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Mark’s Ranking (10–1)

10. Oppenheimer
9. Insomnia
8. Tenet

• “Partly the reason why I put Tenet at eight is because the figure eight…” — Mark [11:57]
  7. Dunkirk
  6. The Dark Knight
  5. Interstellar
  4. Batman Begins
  3. Memento
  2. Inception
  1. The Prestige

Notable moments:

• The Prestige’s emotional punch edges it to Mark’s top spot, especially its “devastating” reveal.
  • “You suddenly realize exactly what’s at stake … it doesn’t matter that there’s another version of you. You are going to die. That is what is going to happen. … There’s something really, really horrifying about that.” — Mark [22:38]

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Jack’s Ranking (12–1)

12. Following
11. Insomnia
10. The Dark Knight Rises
9. Memento
8. Batman Begins
7. Dunkirk
6. The Prestige
5. Interstellar
4. Tenet
3. Inception
2. The Dark Knight
1. Oppenheimer

Notable moments:

• Jack’s number one pick, Oppenheimer, is discussed at length—he finds the film “comforting” in its structure and lauds its culmination of Nolan’s stylistic and narrative trademarks.
  • “It’s as Nolan as it gets in terms of its structure and pacing … a courtroom drama scored like an action movie.” — Jack [23:15]
• On Tenet: “It’s a film that’s built to be rewatched … That’s why I think I’m such a perfect Christopher Nolan fan—I’m a huge rewatcher.” — Jack [19:06]

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

On Oppenheimer: Two Sides

• Jack’s View [23:15–24:29]:
  Sees it as Nolan’s most emotionally complete, best work—appreciates the “courtroom drama scored like an action film”, and the intimacy brought by IMAX close-ups.
• Mark’s Skepticism [24:52–26:11]:
  Admires Cillian Murphy’s performance but finds the film “underwhelming” and “weirdly unexplosive,” particularly the avoidance of showcasing the actual atomic bomb.
  • “For a film called Oppenheimer shot in IMAX, it was weirdly unexplosive … you don’t actually see the big thing.” — Mark [26:06]
• Discussion on Exposition [24:29–25:03]:
  Both acknowledge that Nolan has an “exposition problem,” but Jack feels it doesn’t detract from the impact.
  • “He doesn’t hide exposition well. He just sort of gives you the information.” — Jack [24:52]

On Interstellar: Cinematic Experience

• Both hosts have softened on Interstellar over time.
  • “As a pure cinematic experience, it’s pretty hard to top.” — Mark [18:13]
  • “The ratio of good to bad is so much more in the good … especially when I’ve only rewatched it in the cinema.” — Jack [17:11]

On Inception and The Prestige

• Both praise Inception for its emotional resonance, practical effects, and iconic closing.
  • “When you realize, and it’s to going, you’re very late on in the game, exactly what is at stake … that’s really devastating.” — Mark, on The Prestige twist [22:25]
  • “That end of Inception, the spinning top, the crowd just simultaneously [gasps].” — Jack [21:59]

On The Dark Knight Trilogy

• Both agree The Dark Knight Rises hasn’t aged well, with Mark admitting his earlier high ranking was a mistake:

  • “No, I was wrong. I was just quite simply wrong.” — Mark [12:57]

• On The Dark Knight’s philosophical stakes:

  • “With the Joker, it’s a fight for the soul of Gotham … it’s mythic, basically.” — Jack [39:04]

On Following and Lesser Nolan Films

• Both rank Following and The Dark Knight Rises lowest, though acknowledge Following as important for Nolan’s learning curve.

---

Memorable Quotes & Humorous Exchanges

• On their differing rankings:
  • “We are literally flipped on Oppenheimer.” — Mark [16:09]
• On reversal of past opinions:
  • “In a previous version of this podcast, you ranked The Dark Knight Rises above The Dark Knight.”
    “Yes, I was an idiot.” — Jack / Mark [12:55–12:57]
• On the practicalities of cinema seating:
  • “Odeon West End is a lovely cinema… IMAX is IMAX… but the seats are just nothing.” — Mark [08:12]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Ranking Begins: [10:24]
• Mark’s Top 10 Recap: [11:37–12:45]
• Jack’s Top 12 Recap: [14:02–16:08]
• Key Oppenheimer Debate: [23:03–28:47]
• Discussion on Interstellar: [17:38–18:35]
• On The Prestige’s emotional impact: [22:25–22:55]
• Philosophy of The Dark Knight: [38:54–39:29]
• Wrap up and reflections on The Odyssey expectations: [40:29–41:12]

---

Conclusion and Looking Ahead

The episode closes with mutual respect and good humor. Both are eager to see how The Odyssey will fit their current orders:

• “Maybe both things can be true.” — Jack [41:12]
• “I just can’t emotionally accept it.” — Mark [41:13]

Jack predicts The Odyssey might break his top five. Mark, as ever the critic, promises to withhold expectations—but is open to being surprised.

---

For Further Listening

Listeners are encouraged to:

• Share their own Nolan rankings in comments or reviews
• Tune in next week for a discussion on Nirvana the Band the Show: The Movie
• Look forward to a Kermode on Film episode post-Odyssey screening

---

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Hi, this is Mark Kobo. Thanks for downloading this covered and film podcast or watching us on our YouTube channel. We are here in the Sun Pub in the heart of London's West End. I'm joined once again by Jack Howard. What are we doing?

[C]

We are going to be wrapping up our conversation about Christopher Nolan. If you haven't heard our previous podcast, there's two more where we discuss Christopher Nolan. One's very much about tenet, the other one a little bit more about, like, leading up to the Odyssey. This one we are ranking, I say 12 to 1. Mark refuses and is doing a top 10.

[A]

So you.

[C]

What we should do is like, you know, when people are doing these things now, they're like, oh, it's going to be a surprise. Number one. You won't believe what's at number one. Mark's number one is crazy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Wow. You better stick around for that Hannah Montana. Oh, he didn't direct that, did he?

[C]

Oh, no, no, no. That was his brother.

[A]

So I want to begin by saying that we're here in the. In the Sun Pub in London's glittering West End. And it is very, very sunny outside.

[C]

It's quite warm.

[A]

Yes. And if you're not watching this on YouTube, but you're listening as a podcast, what you won't know is that I, from head to foot in a black suit, Jack is dressed in what can only be described as Alan Partridge sports casual.

[C]

How dare you?

[A]

White trousers. Yeah. You know, sort of beige linen shirt. And the reason this salmon. If that's what they told you, Jack, that's. Then you just stick with it. Okay. The reason for this disparity is because we. This is the Afternoon before we both go to see the premiere of the new Christopher Nolan film the Odyssey, which you probably heard about.

[C]

We're going to the premiere?

[A]

Yes. I can't contain my excitement on the thing. It says dress smart. Okay. And so I got a message which said, I know what we're going to do. We're going to film a thing in the pub with you and Jack both in your suits. Both in your suits before you go to the premiere. Okay. So I don't live in London's glittering West End. I live in Cornwall. So I came up yesterday Sunday in the suit. No, no, I came up wearing sports casual.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Nice salmon shirt. Yeah. No man afeared of his sexuality.

[C]

No.

[A]

No man assured of his sexuality should fear the color pink. Anyway, that's from the remake of Alfie, I think. Anyway. Anyway. Anyway, checked into the glamorous Travelodge, Finchley central.

[C]

Lovely.

[A]

And then this morning, and it was broiling hot.

[B]

Went.

[A]

But I've got to put my suit on now because I'm going to do this blog with Jack. And now I get here and you're dressed for the beach. And I'm just going, why? Look, why am I the snook who has to walk around dressed like an undertaker? I'm wearing black. Completely head to foot in black. And you are literally dressed in reflecting colors.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

I, this morning, did make an executive decision that I was not going to be wearing my suit all day. I did send a message.

[A]

Able to do that. And I.

[C]

Not.

[A]

I'm older than you.

[C]

Well, yeah, I don't know. I didn't. I didn't. I sent a message. I tried to get the message to you. I didn't send it direct because I know that you offered you. Well, yeah, I did.

[A]

You put it in a bottle and throw it into pigeon.

[C]

I said a pigeon?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Look, I. I was just. I know it's too hot for me to be wearing my suit all day and then go to the Odyssey premiere without freshening up beforehand. So. Yeah. And actually.

[A]

But I did freshening up.

[C]

I did make a decision that I was gonna wear trousers because of the podcast. I would be wearing shorts. But I decided, no, I'll go.

[A]

So when you said to wear trousers.

[C]

All right, what's the other option?

[A]

What is the other option? Wear trousers or not wear trousers. Okay, fine. So anyway, so the fact that I am actually perspiration free.

[C]

Yeah, I'm not.

[A]

And you've been vigorously toweling yourself. I've brought a towel from home like a Wimbledon player.

[C]

I'm Like a tennis player. I've brought a towel from home. I keep dabbing myself. I might do it during the podcast. I'm like, Lee Evans, wow. That was a.

[A]

Because, no, I mean, well done. That's a very deep cut. Well done.

[C]

Can't believe that. Obviously, that's just like stored in my brain somewhere.

[A]

Actually, there is no human being on earth that sweats more than Lee Evans when he's in the middle of one of his full on things. He is, absolutely. Yeah.

[C]

Anyway, so we're not here to talk about Lee Evans.

[A]

No. But we are here to talk about how I have managed to retain an amazing level of cool, despite the fact that I'm dressed for a funeral.

[C]

And it's, as you said, broiling.

[A]

It is broilingly hot. I think we also have to address the fact that although we're both going to the premiere. Yeah. We're not both going to the same premiere.

[F]

Yeah.

[C]

You're going to the proper Big Boy.

[A]

Okay, so explain for the viewers and listeners. Explain what's. What's happening.

[C]

Yeah. So there's two different versions of the premiere. Basically, you're at the Big Boy one.

[A]

No, no, don't you.

[C]

And I'm with the Sending the riff raff.

[A]

Meaning in actual terms that people can understand.

[C]

So the Big Boy premiere is that Mark is going to see it at the BFI imax, which is the biggest screen here in the uk. He's going to be. It's going to be projected in 70mil IMAX and I'm going to be seeing it at the ODN Leicester Square, which is a traditional place for premieres.

[A]

It's like it was the home of premieres. Absolutely.

[C]

I think they've got that on the outside.

[A]

I think they have, yes.

[C]

Even though that doesn't feel like it's been the case for a long time. So I will be seeing it there and they'll be playing basically simultaneously. So I will not. My first experience of the Odyssey will not be as it is shot. And I'm sure a lot of people do know this, it is the first film entirely shot in imax. So even though I'm so unbelievably grateful that I'm gonna be going to this premiere and seeing it like so early, this is. We're recording this on Monday, the 6th. Today, the 6th of July. July. I'm seeing it unbelievably early. It's my favorite filmmaker. It's definitely my most anticipated film of the year. Of course. I'm so unbelievably Grateful that I'm seeing it, but I am a little bit like, oh, but I'm not seeing it how it's meant to be seen.

[A]

Okay, but the weird thing is, Jack, okay, here's what happened, because it's a bit of an own goal, right? I got invited to. I'm going to. Yeah, I got invited to the premiere, right? And it said, would you like to come to the premiere plus a guest? So what was the first thing I did?

[C]

You sent me a screenshot of it,

[A]

immediately said, jack, I've been invited to the premiere. Would you like to be my guest? And you went, oh, well, you know, actually, I've been invited.

[C]

Come on. I am. First thing I said was, yes, obviously.

[A]

Yes, obviously. Yes, okay, fine. So that was great. Then you got back in touch and said, oh, actually, I've been invited as well.

[C]

In. In that it was more like, oh, actually, I think you're fine.

[A]

I've also been invited to Very Important. And. And I went, right. So. And then. So. So then we decided that we'd give my ticket to Header, who's producer of the show. This show, and that you would, you know, you'd have your own ticket. And then you sent me a text going, I can't believe that the premiere of the Odyssey is not in imax. And I. And I. And I went, funny, sure, it was at the imax, but, you know, obviously, obviously, Jack's right. And then I find out that there are two and that you have basically done yourself out of a seat. I have to go see. And then I said.

[C]

And then I say, you've tried to save me.

[A]

This is. This is real behind the scenes. So then I go, well, Jack, I tell you what, you know, why don't you come to the IMAX and we'll send Header to the Odeon West End. At which point, almost simultaneously, I get texts from Heather saying, jack's really, you know, he really wants to see it in imax. I said, you know what? I've already messaged him so that you can see it in the. In the. In the. In the Odeon West End, which, incidentally, I should say the Odeon West End is a lovely cinema. It's lovely, yeah. I mean, it's got the recliners, reclines, it's got a mile of legroom. You and I saw one battle after another. There. There is not a bad eye line in that cinema. I mean, there's half the number of seats that they used to be in it. Every single seat is like a luxury. And which. Which you know, IMAX is IMAX's IMAX, but it's. The seats are just nothing. And anyway, so then it was like, no, Jack is going to see it at. In the West End, because, well, I've

[C]

invited my missus along now.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah. Like my lovely girlfriend, Ailey Fraser, the love of my life.

[A]

And may I just say that no love, no greater love hath any man. Well, hath you opposed to any man that he would go, no, Ailey, because. Because of how much I love you, I shall see the Odyssey in the audio.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, I'll do it with a smile on my face.

[A]

I'm the biggest one. I'll say. Because it. Because. Because with you sitting next to me, it'll be like, I'm at the imax.

[C]

Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.

[A]

If you don't play her that clip, I'll be really cross. All right. Okay.

[C]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Do say that to her.

[C]

Literally say, I'm going to play her

[A]

this and see whether. See whether you get away with it.

[C]

I think I've said a version of that anyway.

[D]

I think.

[C]

And also, like, just when she found out that you had invited me, she was like, no, of course you should go. Of course you should go. He's your favorite filmmaker.

[A]

Of course you're gonna say he's your favorite film critic. And then you finish that sentence badly.

[C]

And you love Mark. You and Mark should see.

[A]

Nicely saved.

[C]

And. And then when I got the invitation, I was like, oh, my God, we can all go. We can all go. And then I found out this information, and now here we are. And I've been, no, but of course, babe, I'd rather see it with you. I'd rather see it with you than at the IMAX anyway. Okay, okay.

[A]

Now that we've got that out of

[C]

the way, big old Prelude. We are going to be ranking.

[A]

Prelude is what most people say.

[C]

Christopher Nolan's films.

[A]

There's no English word that says prelude.

[F]

We.

[A]

There are prelude sounds like pre lubed, which is.

[C]

Which is what I am. Okay. Would you like to go first on your Christopher Nolan rankings? We're doing 12 of the films, obviously, because we haven't seen the 13th yet. No, a previous version of this podcast. We did the ranking before. And I can remember. I can remember actually, even before that, we did a. We had a conversation about Christopher Nolan maybe on the first ever version of this. We did, yeah, in like, 2018.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

So like eight years ago. All those.

[A]

Just helping you with the math.

[C]

All those conversations. I can remember one Thing about this. And I wonder if it's changed for Mark, because Mark, I think, has got a mental ranking specifically of the Batman trilogy. Mark, take away from 12 to 1,

[A]

what is your favorite 10 to 1.

[C]

12 to 1.

[A]

10.

[C]

There's 12 films.

[A]

No, but we're doing the top 10.

[C]

Well, yeah, we might as well just rank all 12.

[A]

No, you don't want to rank all 12. No, we're doing the top 10. I literally. We had this conversation before we start. Well, you can do 12.

[C]

I'm doing 12.

[A]

I'm doing 10.

[C]

Okay. And then you can tell me where the other two might be.

[A]

Working in a nursery, like literally top defining. Okay, that's great. Okay. So would you like my. Would you like my top 10?

[C]

Sure.

[A]

At 10. Oppenheimer.

[C]

Immediately I'm shocked. Immediately I'm shocked.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

9. Insomnia. 8. Tenet.

[B]

Uh huh.

[C]

That one hurts.

[A]

And you know the best, you know, partly the reason why I put tenant at eight, because the figure eight.

[C]

Very good. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[E]

Isn't it?

[A]

Yeah.

[G]

Isn't it?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So it actually sits at eight for you and it also.

[A]

Because it's a Paladin infinity. Exactly.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

Come on, that's brilliant.

[A]

Come on.

[C]

Yeah. No, I bet you were very happy with that. I was very happy when you were sat there doing it on your phone five minutes ago.

[A]

Yeah. Seven. Dunkirk.

[C]

Respectable.

[A]

Six. The Dark Knight.

[C]

Here it comes.

[A]

Five. Interstellar.

[C]

Mm.

[B]

Four.

[A]

Batman Begins. Three. Memento.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Two. Well, you know how this works.

[C]

Yeah, I do.

[A]

Inception.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

One. Prestige.

[C]

Okay. Okay. Brilliant. All right.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[C]

I knew that the Prestige was number one. In a previous version of this podcast, you ranked the Dark Knight risers above the Dark Knight.

[A]

Yes, I was an idiot.

[C]

Thank you. Oh, I've waited since 2018.

[A]

No, I was wrong. I was just quite simply wrong. Yeah.

[C]

Like I remember, though. I mean, maybe you still think this, but there was a whole argument about the boats. Not. No, not about the boats, but specifically about the end of the Dark Knight Rises and you thinking it might be like Alfred's dream.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Which I don't know if you still believe that.

[A]

No, no, I was, I was, I was wrong. Of all of them, that's the one that's aged the worst.

[C]

Yes, it has. Okay, so if you were then going

[A]

to do 11 and 12, knowing and Dark Knight Rises, I mean, I saw following.

[C]

You said knowing. You said knowing last time. It's following.

[A]

Yeah, well, there you go. That's, you know, I. I saw following I think in a previous century, and I don't remember almost anything about it at all.

[C]

Yeah, I haven't gone back and seen it by default. It's. It's. I mean, I think happily. I think Nolan would be happy about this. It's his worst film.

[A]

Well, it's. Yeah, but of course. Him figuring it out.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And then Dark Knight Rises, of all of the. The films is the one that's aged the least.

[C]

Well, so that's. That's if you're 12 and then. 12.

[A]

Yeah, okay, yeah, fine. But that's why I was doing top 10, because top 10. I can be clear about that. So now go.

[C]

Okay, here's mine. 12 following.

[A]

Yeah, fine.

[C]

11. Insomnia.

[A]

Ooh. Wow.

[C]

Okay, so here comes the top 10.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

The dark Knight Rises Darkly.

[A]

Fine.

[C]

Memento.

[A]

Very low down.

[C]

Batman Begins.

[A]

Very low down.

[C]

Dunkirk.

[A]

Yeah, I can get that.

[C]

The Prestige.

[A]

I mean, I know that you and I died. We're on a different page about that, but.

[C]

Okay, here's the top five.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, is that at five?

[C]

No, this is the fifth one.

[A]

Oh, so that was six.

[C]

That was six.

[A]

So the Prestige didn't even make the top five.

[C]

I can give you my reasoning for this after this.

[A]

Okay, fine.

[C]

Top five. Interstellar.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Number four. Tenet.

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[A]

I thought that would be higher.

[C]

Number three. Inception.

[A]

Oh, of course, because. Yes, fine.

[C]

Number two. The Dark Knight.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Number one. Oppenheimer.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

So we are literally flipped on Oppenheimer.

[A]

Wow. One and ten.

[C]

I can't. I mean, I was actually very surprised by that. But before we get into the discussion, I'll tell you my reasoning Right, yeah, sure. The top.

[A]

None of your reasons will be as good as the fact that 8 is an infinity sign is also a palindrome. I'm sorry, I think I win this. This week's podcast.

[C]

10 to 12 are, like, definitely the worst films. The Dark Knight Rises is clunky.

[A]

Yeah. We both, we both think Dark Knight Rises and like Bailey.

[C]

Amazing.

[A]

Ye, fine.

[C]

Bane is amazing. The lines that he has, like the character that Tom Hardy created, is very memorable. But other than that, it's a very clunky film and it has aged quite badly 9 to 7, which is Dunkirk, Batman Begins, Memento are kind of interchangeable, depending on what day it is.

[A]

Yes, I agree.

[C]

The Prestige just doesn't make the top five.

[A]

I'm just really surprised by that because I thought you had a sort of similar affection for it as I do.

[C]

I do, I do like it. But my reasoning for the top five are those are the films that if they were playing at the cinema, specifically if they were playing at the imax, I would run to go and see them.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And that's what my top five has become. And I. People may know this, I used to be a big old Interstellar hater. It used to be very, very low down. And I've become more open hearted about it now. I'm softened on Interstellar. And I think that the, the ratio of good to bad is so much more in the good, especially when, you know, I've only rewatched it in the cinema. And my aforementioned other half, Ailey, loves that movie. And so that's also helped me kind of soften on it as well.

[A]

I saw it a few years ago in BFI imax, and that was the thing that actually cemented for me, okay, look, there's things wrong with it. Yeah. And it's, you know, narratively all over the place.

[C]

And it's the most like, expositional dialog he's ever done.

[A]

Explain for me again how black holes, you know, hi, I've been looking for you all my life. Anyway, bye. All that sort of stuff. Oh, the robot came out. Yeah, but don't you get it?

[C]

Yes, the future. It's us in the future that they put us here, they sent us. It's us.

[A]

What was that? What's that phrase that you used? Can you understand this?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because I can.

[C]

Yeah. The bit from Disclosure, it's a bit

[A]

that, it's a bit that. But as a pure cinematic experience, it's pretty hard to top. Yeah. I mean, it is up there with the best bits of silent running and 2001 in terms of just visual.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

I can't believe I'm seeing.

[C]

I can't believe it's 2014. So it's over a decade old and not a. Not a frame of it has aged.

[D]

Astonishing.

[A]

Astonishing. I was kind of of the. I thought you might actually put 10 at number one because you've become such a sort of defender.

[C]

I'm a massive defender of it and it is one of my most rewatched and especially because it came out in the Pandemic and the cinema was open enough for it to be shown quite regularly. So obviously it's a film that's built to be rewatched. Which is why I think that I'm such a, like a perfect Christopher Nolan fan is that I. I don't know. How often do you re watch films?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

I'm a huge re watcher.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think Nolan builds his films to be re watched and obviously Tenet especially is. Is one of those. And so in the Pandemic, it was certainly like. I mean, we described going back to the cinema in the Pandemic. I was like, oh my God, I'm back at church. It's like, oh, I forgot what it

[A]

felt like watching fat Russell Crowe run somebody over in a car. Remember that? That was whatever. I can't remember what that film was called. It was called like Annoyed Russell Crowe hit somebody with a car. You know, he was like, yes, I love cinema. It's so great.

[C]

That or tennis. So I was going back to watch that a lot. And so it really has that kind of like, very relieving feeling for me also all the reasons I've gone into before on this. On this podcast of why I love it so much. But I can't deny, like, I think because Inception and the Dark Knight are just so ingrained into pop culture, we kind of take for granted how good they are and re watching Inception semi recently getting ready to watch the Odyssey, I said, oh, yeah, like when you. When you've like put out your mind that you know what's coming next and you know, the sequences that are coming up and how they did them and still stunning. Still. Oh, like, I can't believe how good it is.

[A]

I think one of the things about Inception that makes it as brilliant as it is is the physicality of it. I mean, I know that, you know, you never believe it. They did the thing when they had the, you know, the corridor bit is actually. It's a corridor and you go, yeah, that's fine. And Then you watch the scene again. Then you go, no, actually, that really, it is absolute demonstration that there is very little substitute for doing something on camera. Yeah. And the other genius thing about Inception is that it works on an emotional level. But it is. There used to be a thing that people said about it which used to really annoy me. Again, Inception is a stupid person's idea of what a clever film is. To which, you know, my answer is saying that is a stupid person's idea of what a clever thing to say about filming.

[C]

Yeah. It's the same people that say the Dark Knight wouldn't be very good if you took the Joker out of it.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Because it would be a different film. What are you talking about?

[A]

Or the people who say Exorcist to the Heretic would be taken much more seriously if it wasn't connected to the Exorcist. Yeah. In which case it wouldn't exist because nobody was offering John Boorman $20 million to make a film in which Richard Burton flies to Africa on the back of a locust if it wasn't associated to the one in which the girl's head spun round. Okay, just to be clear. But that. I think that whole thing about the Inception is. And it's. With Inception and Prestige, for me, it's very. I mean, they are pretty much interchangeable because they both have really real emotional clout. The reason the Prestige has the edge for me, and I wonder about the significance of this is when you realize, and it's to going, you're very late on in the. In the game. Exactly what is at stake. Every time they do that trick, I think it's really devastating. I think it's one of those.

[C]

Yes. I remember you and I talking before about what our favorite Christopher Nolan moment was. And my choice was the end of Inception, the Spinning Top, which is an obvious choice, but it's because I remember being in the cinema in 2010 when I already knew what would. I'd seen it before, and being sat in the cinema waiting for that cut to black, waiting for the crowd, the full crowd, to go just simultaneously. And yours was. Was that moment in the Prestige where it was more of an internal gasp.

[A]

Yeah. And you just. You just suddenly realize exactly what's at stake. And I think.

[C]

Are you talking about, like, he doesn't know if he's gonna be the one in the box?

[A]

Yeah, it's the fact. It's. It's, you know, it's death. Every time.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Every time. It's like it doesn't matter. That there's another version of you. You are going to die. That. That is what is going to happen. And it. Which is. It's like the magic trick is that every single time he has to. He has to lose everything. And I just. I think there's something really, really horrifying

[C]

about that, and I think that that is something we haven't talked about before. Another theme that comes up again and again in Nolan's movies, which is an obsession. This is an obsessed man.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Willing to go further than another man to get what he wants, despite what that means for his personal life or for the world at large.

[A]

Tell me the Oppenheimer at number one thing contextualize this for me.

[C]

Yeah. I. So weirdly it. For me, it's a comforting film to watch. Like, I think that's bizarre to say, but in the same way that I kind of love watching Zodiac and I love watching the Silence of the Lambs, like, they're weirdly comforting movies to watch, despite how horrible the subject matter is. Oppenheimer, I think because it's as Nolan as it gets in terms of its structure and its pacing. It's a courtroom drama scored like an action movie. That. That kind of the vibe of it really, as we've described in this podcast before, it scratches my brain. Like, it does something in a way that I really like. But I also think that it's character work, Cillian Murphy's performance, the. All of it, emotionally, the drama, the drive of the film, for some reason, I think. I just think it's his best work. I think it's like the culmination of everything Nolan had been doing, and he just, like, shoved it into this. Like. Like, I can't believe that it's a real story. Like, I can't believe that he read a book based on this person's life and then quite quickly wrote this version of this. And this is how we're going to do this. This is how we're going to tell this story.

[A]

Is there any part of you that thinks there is an awful lot of exposition in Oppenhe?

[C]

Yes, but I think there's an awful lot of exposition in Inception as well, and Interstellar. And it's probably quite an easy thing to point out with quite a lot of Nolan's films. It's like a. It's a flaw of his, I guess, but it doesn't bother me that he's very. He's. He's. He doesn't hide exposition well. He just sort of gives you the

[A]

information, doesn't hide it. Well, that's a good phrase. I mean, I'm just so. Listen, I'm not down on it at all. I just. I was. When I first saw Oppenheimer, I was just underwhelmed.

[C]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, not in a. I mean, look, I still think it's, you know, it's. It's a terrific film and I think the Cillian Murphy absolutely deserved that Oscar. And I think there's a. I think the most interesting choice in Oppenheimer is let's shoot close ups on somebody's face with IMAX cameras and let's, you know, let's literally treat Cillian Murphy, who is one of the smallest human beings on the planet, like Mount Rushmore. And I think that it's. His performance is incredible because what you realize is just how much work his face is doing without looking like it's doing anything. So I love his performance and I. I actually really love Matt Damon in that film.

[C]

I love Matt Damon in it as well.

[A]

Really good.

[C]

So is Danny Jr. As well. He's fantastic.

[A]

Yeah. I think that there are, you know, the hallucination stuff I'm just. I'm not crazy about.

[C]

So you mean the bit when he has the horror moment when he sees, like a woman's burning skin and stuff like that? Is that what you mean?

[A]

I mean, the bit with.

[C]

You mean him seeing the quantum realm.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's okay, you know, that, that, that. That I can live without. And I think that it's.

[C]

It is a bit funny that he's like, I'm cursed with images of the quantum realm and it's just like close ups of lights.

[A]

Here we are. Yeah, it's like that. You go, no, that's just a disco you went to. That's fine. And I. I also thought that for my. There was a weird thing that. For a film called Oppenheimer shot in imax, it was weirdly unexplosive. I mean, clearly the fact that you don't really actually see the atom bomb. You see people looking at the atom bomb. It's Spielberg shot of, wow, that's a big thing. But you don't actually see the big thing. I mean, I understand it's a stylistic decision, but I. I had had a reservation about that. And also, funnily enough, I was talking to Child two yesterday about this very subject and. And he said that he felt that there was a. It was almost too much of an apology, an apologia. The whole thing about, you know, I am become. Is. Well, yeah, but it's not unpacked further than that. Now what it does do is it very much then becomes a film about they're out to get him, rather than what I had always thought was a more interesting thing was, you know, because it's the. It's the angel heart, you know, every man haunts himself. You've got yourself. You did it. You did it yourself. And in the narrative of Oppenheimer, it's definitely that he does something and then they're out to get him. And so it's. So it ceases being my God, what have I done? And it becomes my God, what are you doing? Which is a. Which is to me a slightly philosophically less interesting question.

[C]

I see that and I can see people like feeling that way. Especially there was a lot of talk at the time about how we never see the bombs being dropped. And I don't have a problem with that because I think that the film is. Is looking at, here's the man who created it. How does he feel about his creation?

[A]

What you do see that. You see his reservations and you also see that he is shown photographs and, you know, and that. That's a big. But, yes, it. It absolutely avoids the thing. But I. That's actually not what I have an issue with. I think, I think that. I think my issue is that narratively it basically skews. I mean, look, whether or not, you know, we could. However one feels about the creation of the atom palm.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

You know, which is a long. A long debate not to have here. I always thought that the more interesting story was I said, my God, what have I done? Because I just. I just find that sort of fundamentally more interesting. And I think that when it becomes that they're all piling on against him and it's them persecuting him, it's a bit like, okay, but that's, you know, that that's. I'm less interested in that.

[C]

I understand and I see how it can be interpreted that way, but I feel like by framing it around. What did you do? It almost feels like his life is being put on trial and it's his own mind.

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[C]

Interrogating him. That he's in this, like, shabby little room and his own brain is yelling at him about what he did. And it. And it's more metaphorical than. Than. Than it. And obviously it literally happened that he did, like, get interrogated and he's got his clearance taken away.

[A]

As you said at the beginning, it is a real story.

[C]

Yeah, it is a real story, but I think that.

[A]

What is the truth of the attempting to poison the professor and then not. Is that actually true?

[C]

Like, as far as I know, there is something about him poisoning an apple. Whether or not, like, it's rumored or whatever. Like, yeah, there is pre.

[A]

Close to actually. Boys.

[C]

What I think is amazing is the inclusion of that, whether it happened or not is it's like, here's what this guy does impulsively. Like, this is. This is how impulsive this guy, this character is that Nolan is presenting to you. I think that's crazy. I also take your point about the atomic bomb being dropped. I think that it is visually, we all. We were talking about this before it came out. What is. How is Nolan going to do? Is he going to actually drop a box? Like, what's he going to do? And I actually think that his aversion to using CGI in that moment maybe

[A]

was

[C]

kind of tying one arm behind his back because I think the actual

[A]

explosion of actually dropping an atom.

[C]

Well, yeah. Like, I mean, like, without using, like, CGI in that moment, I think it is a little bit like. Yeah, I've seen explosions and it is beautifully done. And I like that it all goes quiet. And then you hear him in that moment of ecstasy from before with Florence Pugh saying the Now I'm become death.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The destroyer of worlds in this, like, sexual moment that's been brought into this and like, half how weird that is. And then the bang goes off and it makes you jump because of the. The difference between sound and visual. Very good. I like all of that. I also like that the guilt is then carried over into the final. Into the final third of the film. I love the moment when he's being interrogated and it feels like the atomic bomb is going off again outside the window when he's. Haven't been, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And there's. There's a lot more, like, abstract kind of weird stuff. It's. It's like, you know, fairly level one in terms of abstract imagery, but it's different for Nolan, like him being literally. Literally nude in the courtroom and Kitty looking, which is her, Oppenheimer's wife, played by Emily Blunt looking Oppenheimer. And from her point of view, she can see Florence Pugh's character sleeping with him in the courtroom. Like, all of that imagery is quite new for him. I just found it, like.

[A]

I mean, and then I do think that that scene feels like I haven't done this before. Probably won't do it again.

[C]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I know what you mean because. Because it is. It's a weird thing. One of the things that is Set said about Chris Villan's ondoms is he's not very good at women characters, actually. I think if you look at Inception, that's not true.

[C]

I think so too. Yeah. And I think that there's an easy criticism, again, to throw at him, which is like, well, she's not actually a character, is she? She's. She mole in inception is Leonardo DiCaprio, Dom Cobb's perception of her in his imagination. So she's not really her, which is what he then reckons with at the end, which is kind of Christopher Nolan. You know, that speech that he gives to her when she's. When he's letting her go, which is like, I can't imagine you with all your complexity or your perfection or your imperfection.

[A]

But there's also. But there's also a very thoroughly fleshed out character played by Elliot Page, who I think is actually, you know, that is a. That is a great female science fiction character because it. Because the gender of that character is really not ever an issue.

[C]

I agree. Yeah. I think that. Again, I'm happy with the criticism that, like, she is only there to be the therapist kind of stand in for Dom Cobb. Right. I think Ariadne guiding him through the maze, that kind of.

[A]

I think that character is more than that. I think she's more than that.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Great.

[C]

And the last thing I want to say about Oppenheimer in particular is Ludwig Goranson's amazing school.

[A]

It is a great school.

[C]

It is a great school. Like the. The. Can you hear the music specifically? I mean, I heard That I went, he's winning an Oscar. He's winning another Oscar.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

He's now three Oscars deep. Maybe four after this. We'll see.

[A]

Yeah, he's had it. He's had enough now, I think, you know, Johnny Greenwood hasn't got one yet. Yeah. So I'm just saying. But really, you could probably sort that out.

[C]

So it's interesting in it. Like, I mean, I genuinely didn't imagine Oppenheimer would be so low on your list, but I think it's become a big rewatch thing for me.

[A]

Okay. And. And crucially, it hasn't for me. I don't think I've watched Oppenheimer since. Since I saw it at the premiere. And. And I think.

[C]

Premiere.

[A]

He was at the premiere. Yes. And I think that that's interesting because I have watched Inception, you know, a few times. I've watched. I have watched Prestige again, weirdly enough. I did watch the Dark Knight Rises and went, yeah. You know, and I. I was very much. I was aware of what you said about. Yeah, I was just wrong.

[C]

Yeah, great.

[A]

I was just wrong about it. But then again, I remember it's been

[C]

the best thing about this.

[A]

But then I remember somebody I went with to see Dark Knight Rises being in tears at the end of it.

[C]

Oh, I was overwhelmed in 2012 when it came out. I mean, the review, everybody was like. Because I would also say Nolan's very good at endings. He's good at, like a thumping. He knows how to end a film. And so when you're. I think we've talked about this before. If you end a film, well, the middle doesn't really matter.

[A]

Exactly. That was always the whole thing about if you. If you leave them with a good last 10 minutes, they will just completely forget about everything else.

[D]

Exactly.

[C]

And like, the forgiveness that you're giving the Dark Knight Rises for that. Thumping the drums building up. Oh, there he. Alfred, seeing him. Robin's found the cave. The. The stage is lifting up. We're going into the.

[B]

Ah.

[C]

Like, it's just such a great ending. Although I will say, my friend Dom Ferrer, I will never be able to forget this. But you can totally see how the moment when you find out that Joseph Gordon Levitt's name is Robin is adr. Because they. You don't see the woman saying it. You go like. She's like. Sees a name tag and says, like, oh, you should use your real name. I like that. That Robin. And it's like. It's like someone going, you should use your real name, Green Lantern. It's just. It's just a bit. It's a bit too, like, pointed fan service. It could have easily gotten away with just. He's the embodiment of a modern Nolan version of Robin without going, that's Robin.

[A]

Yeah. No, absolutely. No, there are. I mean, there. There are. There are many things in it that on reviewing it was just like, oh, yeah, actually, I was completely wrong about it.

[D]

And.

[A]

And I have subsequently watched Dark Knight again and gone, oh, yeah, no, no, it's because the bits of Dark Knight that work, work really well and the bits of Dark Knight that bother me, actually, very specifically, the.

[C]

Is it the two boats.

[A]

Yeah, I was much less bothered by that having watched it recently. I think maybe I was just. I have this weird. Well, not a weird thing. You. Both. You and I have done therapy and my boys. My. Yeah. Therapist. My therapist said to me that my. One of my main. This is what she said. But she didn't say it in literally these words, but she. This is what she said. You know, the definition of intelligence is the ability to hold two contradictory thoughts in one head at the same time. And you can only think one thing in one head at the same time.

[C]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

I think she called me stupid. I'm not entirely sure. But it's that thing about.

[C]

She said your two things can be true.

[E]

True.

[A]

She said two things can be true. And you find it almost impossible to get your head around that idea that two things can be true at the same time. And you know it in the. In the abstract, but you don't know it emotionally. So whereas you can. You can believe it as a. Of course it's. Of course it's true. But emotionally, every single part of you goes, no, it isn't.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And when I watch that. The game theory thing, I just go, yeah, they just go, boom. Anyway, off we go.

[C]

Right, right, right.

[A]

We do that again. Fine. Bye. I've got a Buster catch.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. But.

[A]

But. But now I actually feel that the scene is much more. Is much. It has. You know, it's. It's much more emotionally convincing than it was. And also I'm kind of. I sort of agree to. To buy it as a melodramatic conceit.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

In a comic book world in which it's actually completely legitimate for people to do the right thing because they are citizens.

[C]

Yes. And it's also. This has been discussed just at length. Some people will say at nausea that the. The reason why the. The. The fight between the Joker and Batman in the Dark Knight is so good isn't because it's about who hits the hardest, which is kind of what it becomes about with Bane.

[A]

It's particularly in the big punchy scene.

[E]

It's just.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

It's just like, okay, fine. Yeah, he can punch.

[C]

I've learned to punch harder now. Bane, you won't beat me this time. I can punch harder because I was in a prison. But whereas. Whereas with the Joker, it's a fight for the soul of Gotham.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And who is right about the human beings that live here?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it's Batman saying, no, I think people are like this. And the Joker saying, I think people are like this.

[A]

You're better than that.

[E]

You're better than that.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Which is. Which is, you know, a little bit why it. Leading us to the Odyssey. It's. It's. It's mythic. It's basically when you have Batman and the Joker in that interrogation room looking at each other and talking and sourcing each other out. It's like the devil and God or Zeus and Hades having a conversation about humanity. But Nolan is going, well, you just do that now with comic book characters, because that's. That's what we like now.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, I remember Paul Schrader, who's somebody about whom I'm very ambivalent, but Paul Schrader said a very, very smart thing about the Exorcist once. He said, the Exorcist is basically God and the devil in a room arguing over the body of a child. And I thought, no, actually, that is what it is.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, very, very well put. So, look, we should probably start to draw this to a close. I. I don't actually have a problem with us having those kind of contrapuntal.

[C]

No, I think it's beautiful that we do.

[A]

I think it's interesting that we both think that. Following Knowing. Following Knowing. Knowing.

[C]

Following Knowing is the Nicolas Cage movie.

[A]

The Knowing was the one for which the review was. Was It's Better not to, and Dark Knight Rise. I think that we've kind of. We've agreed with that. And I think that. I think we are. We are broadly agreed that all the rest of them will happily sort of, you know, take and rewatch. I wonder how the Odyssey is going to fit into this.

[C]

My expectation is that it's going to break my top five. That's my expectation at the moment. I think I'm going to love it.

[A]

Okay. My expectation is that I. I have absolutely no idea.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

What I'm going to think about.

[C]

I think that's a fairer way to go in. I'm going in with very high expectations.

[A]

But also, I mean, it is kind of my job to do that, you know, and it's because I am literally a professional critic and you are literally in this particular case, a professional fan. But no, no, I don't mean that as a no.

[C]

It's absolutely correct.

[A]

But I honestly have no idea what I'm going to make of it. There is part of me that thinks, you know, it could be absolutely wonderful. There's part of me that thinks it could be absolutely terrible. And in a way, I'm very happy with that.

[C]

Maybe both things can be true.

[A]

Maybe both things can be true. I just can't emotionally accept it. Well, there we go. I hope you enjoyed listening to our top 10 or top 12 Christopher Nolan films as much as we enjoyed recording them. If you want to hear more film conversation with me and Simon Mayo, Kermit and Mayo's take is available wherever you get your podcast. If you enjoyed this Kermit on Film episode, what should they do?

[C]

Like the video? Subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, leave us a review on the podcast, or if you're watching it on YouTube, you can leave us a comment letting us know your top 12 of Christopher Nolan's movies. And look forward to next week's episode, which will be about Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. And then after that, of course, we'll be discussing the Odyssey.

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hello, this is Simon Mayo. And this is Mark kermode. He's the UK's best and most trusted film critic. He's a best selling writer, broadcaster and national treasure. Far too kind. Kermod and Mayo's take has all the reviews you need and star guests such as Sir Ian McKellen.

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Nice to be with you.

[A]

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Ewan McGregor.

[D]

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