Are All Awards Nonsense?

Summary

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Kermode on Film – "Are All Awards Nonsense?"

Mark Kermode & Jack Howard
Release Date: February 24, 2026
Podcast Version of MK3D (BFI Southbank live show)

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Overview of Episode Theme

In this episode, Mark Kermode and Jack Howard dive into the recent BAFTA awards and explore the deeper question: are all film awards fundamentally "nonsense"? Their engaging and often humorous discussion is fueled by Jack’s personal experiences as a short filmmaker amidst his own awards journey, and Mark’s decades-long vantage point as a critic and industry observer. The episode offers practical wisdom, empathetic reflection, and real talk for filmmakers and film lovers alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Emotional Aftermath of the Awards Season

(00:54 – 12:27)

• Jack Howard shares his intense journey with his short film, The Second Time Around, highlighting the emotional rollercoaster of being "on all the lists," coming close to Oscar and BAFTA nominations, and then missing out.
  • “I think it's only just started to hit me... to have been working toward something for about seven months on the campaign... then it just stopped.” (Jack Howard, 03:21)
• He reveals how he didn’t initially make the film for awards, but how quickly ambitions escalate once the film enters the awards circuit.
  • “I have a clear separation in my mind of the film that I've made and how I feel about it... but what it meant to me, the symbol of winning an award or being up for an award... was booting in the door for me as a filmmaker.” (Jack Howard, 06:47)

2. Are Awards Nonsense?

(04:10 – 11:59)

• Mark Kermode argues that awards are inherently absurd:
  • “All awards are ridiculous. The whole idea of comparing one film with another for a prize of best thing we made up yesterday... it's all nonsense.” (Mark Kermode, 04:10)
• However, he concedes that awards only feel pointless until you’re in the running or win one.
  • “It's all nonsense until the point that you get drawn into its gravity and suddenly it's not nonsense.” (Mark Kermode, 04:39)
• The urge for recognition is universal, but Mark warns that dependence on external validation through awards is a dangerous trap.
  • “The most dangerous thing about awards is that thing… it’s like, you know, the drug dealer thing about, ‘I'll give you the first taste for free.’” (Mark Kermode, 06:23)

3. The Value of the Journey

(08:40 – 12:27)

• Both hosts stress that the true value in awards campaigns is the energy and visibility that come with being "in the conversation.”
  • “It's not that nothing happened. What happened is a trajectory happened that happened up until a certain point... the hoo-ha, the stuff, the lead up, the blah blah, that is the thing.” (Mark Kermode, 10:19)
• Mark points out how few people can recall who actually wins, emphasizing the fleeting relevance of the actual victory.
  • “The only way it has any significance is that you have to keep… telling people that you won an award, which always makes you sound like a bit of a twat.” (Mark Kermode, 07:20)

4. Processing Disappointment, Embracing Reality

(12:27 – 18:41)

• Jack and Mark discuss the importance of acknowledging disappointment and the post-project void, rather than suppressing it.
  • “I've not allowed myself to be like, oh, no, I'm disappointed. And I have to say goodbye to this thing that I put all of myself into.” (Jack Howard, 13:56)
  • Mark: “Embracing the sadness… the disappointment that—it's really important not to pretend that it's not there.” (13:20)
• Jack's girlfriend offers a creative’s truth: “That's what being an artist is like. You take a huge swing and, you know, then you down tools, you rest, and then you get up and you do it again.” (Jack Howard quoting, 14:09)

5. The Subjectivity and Flaws of Award Recognition

(15:16 – 16:19, 37:32 – 43:44)

• The hosts highlight famous examples of artists winning for the "wrong" project or being unjustly overlooked, exposing the randomness and politicking of awards:
  • “Scorsese won the Oscar for The Departed... it was sorry for Goodfellas.” (Mark Kermode, 15:22)
  • Multiple cases (Juliette Binoche vs. Lauren Bacall, Olivia Colman’s surprise win) show how erratic these awards can be and how little public memory persists.

6. The Power and Challenge of Independent Filmmaking

(18:41 – 26:21)

• Jack describes crowdfunding The Second Time Around through Kickstarter after institutional funders turned him down, raising over £30,000 from about 500 people.
  • “It is amazing to me... just having around 500 people go, ‘Yeah, I want to help you make that happen.’ Honestly, it moves me tremendously.” (Jack Howard, 21:43)
• Discussion of new industry disruptors and “just do it” filmmakers like Zach Cregger and the creators of Nirvana the Band the Show and Markiplier.
  • “These are the people that I like to look to... because they are going out and just doing it. They are just making it happen.” (Jack Howard, 24:07)

7. Inspirations from Unlikely Places

(25:08 – 26:46)

• The success stories of Markiplier’s Iron Lung and Andrea Riseborough’s Oscar campaign showcase changing power dynamics, audience mobilization, and new models for breaking into the industry.
  • “Kind of like shaking up Hollywood a bit. They're like, oh, my God, you did it without us... you didn't need our commercial advertising budget.” (Jack Howard, 26:46)

8. BAFTAs 2026: Surprises, Standouts & Cultural Moments

(27:02 – 37:32)

• Major talking points:
  • Robert Aramayo’s surprise Best Actor win, emotion in the room, and impact on his career:
    • “His dad jumping around and yelling and crying is… the moment of the awards for me.” (Jack Howard, 27:47)
    • “I can't remember the last time I was that surprised... Then there was a standing ovation in the room, because as you say, that feeling of joy...” (Mark Kermode, 30:48)
  • The victory of Two Black Boys in Paradise for Best Animated Short, personal resonance for Jack, and recognition for new voices.
  • Conversation on Best Score, Oscar eligibility rules, and perennial confusion over eligibility (Johnny Greenwood’s There Will Be Blood snub, Max Richter’s nomination for a 20-year-old piece in Hamnet).

9. Awards as Networking, Not Endpoint: The Joachim Trier Anecdote

(33:30 – 37:09)

• Mark shares how championing short films on TV unknowingly gave future Oscar nominees like Joachim Trier their first break, emphasizing how recognition can have ripple effects far beyond awards.
  • “That kid who I don't even remember... whose short film I did like, then went on to be Joachim Trier.” (Mark Kermode, 37:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On awards meaninglessness:
  “All awards are ridiculous. The whole idea of comparing one film with another for a prize of best thing we made up yesterday... it's all nonsense.” (Mark Kermode, 04:10)

• On getting caught up in the game:
  “It’s all nonsense until the point that you get drawn into its gravity and suddenly it's not nonsense.” (Mark Kermode, 04:39)

• On post-award disappointment:
  “I've not allowed myself to be like, oh, no, I'm disappointed. And I have to say goodbye to this thing that I put all of myself into.” (Jack Howard, 13:56)

• On making your own work:
  “It is amazing to me... just having around 500 people go, ‘Yeah, I want to help you make that happen.’ Honestly, it moves me tremendously.” (Jack Howard, 21:43)

• On the fleetingness of victory:
  “No one remembers. No one remembers anything.” (Mark Kermode, 42:18)

• On perseverance:
  “Get up and you do it again.” (Jack Howard, 14:09)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:54 – 12:27: Jack recounts the personal impact of missing out on nominations, and Mark on the reality of awards.
• 15:16 – 16:19: Award recognition quirks—Scorsese and others’ misaligned trophies.
• 18:41 – 22:31: Jack’s Kickstarter journey and the power of crowd support.
• 25:08 – 26:46: Independent disruptors: Markiplier, Iron Lung, and new industry models.
• 27:02 – 32:08: BAFTA surprises—Robert Aramayo’s heartfelt win and industry response.
• 33:30 – 37:09: The story of Joachim Trier and the longevity of small gestures in creative recognition.
• 37:32 – 43:44: Specific snubs, eligibility controversies, and randomness of “big” wins.

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Final Thoughts & Takeaway

The episode delivers an honest, nuanced reflection: awards may be arbitrary and fleeting, but the real reward is in the work, the connections forged, and the energy of creative pursuit. To artists, the message rings clear—embrace the highs and lows, honor the ups and downs, and above all, keep creating, no matter who’s watching.

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Next on Kermode on Film:
A discussion on Pluribus, Vince Gilligan’s new show.
Subscribe for more cine-literate, emotionally candid conversations from Mark and Jack.

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Transcript

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[Mark Kermode]

Hi, this is Mark Cuomo. Thanks for downloading this Comerd on Film podcast or indeed watching us on YouTube. I'm joined once again by Jack Howard. Jack, what are we talking about?

[Jack Howard]

We are going to be talking about the baftas. It was the baftas on Sunday. And surprise, surprise, we have thoughts. But also we're going to be talking about. Do awards matter at all? Who cares? Can anyone even remember them? If it's okay with you, Mark.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

I would like to begin this by being quite sincere.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, now I'm worried.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. I wanted to talk about this for a while and I didn't.

[Mark Kermode]

We're breaking up.

[Jack Howard]

No, we're not. No, no, no.

[Mark Kermode]

Is it something I did?

[Jack Howard]

No, it's nothing that you've done.

[Mark Kermode]

Is it you? Is it not me?

[Jack Howard]

It's nothing to do with you.

[Mark Kermode]

Can I just say I'm sorry. I' through this scenario before and I'm actually, I don't like the way this sounds.

[Jack Howard]

I would just really like to talk to you about it.

[Mark Kermode]

What have I done?

[Jack Howard]

You've done nothing.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

The BAFTAs were last night.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, fine.

[Jack Howard]

And all right, fine. We talked about that. Anybody who's been a longtime listener of the show, especially since we've made the Return.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. Are we calling it the Return?

[Jack Howard]

I think so.

[Mark Kermode]

Like Twin Peaks. So we should call it a common on film. A limited. A limited event series. What was it that they called it? Because it was originally was the Return, but then they said no, no, it's called a limited event series or ridiculous.

[Jack Howard]

Anyway, so I like the Return.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, the Return. That's good.

[Jack Howard]

Since the Return. I. I have. I made my film the second time around.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, you did.

[Jack Howard]

And in all of the time since we've been doing this for the second part of. Since the Return.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

I have been leading up to this time of year with the awards. With the awards and stuff. And. And when I made the Second Time around, which is a short film, it's on Channel four if anybody wants to watch

[Mark Kermode]

it. Yeah, it's terrific. Terrific.

[Jack Howard]

Everyone.

[Mark Kermode]

Everyone who's seen it loves it. I haven't met. I haven't. No. But I haven't met.

[Jack Howard]

I wasn't, like, hunting for a compliment. I promise you that. Anybody listening?

[Mark Kermode]

You know the thing that my wife says to me? She says, you don't. You don't fish for compliments, you troll for them. She says it about me, not you.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just randomly bringing me up.

[Mark Kermode]

Jack Howard, he doesn't fish for compliments, he trolls for them.

[Jack Howard]

When I made the film, I never ever expected that it would ever have any kind of. It would never have a conversation around whether or not it'd be up for any kind of awards or anything. I just made it because it was something I needed to get out of my head.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

And then it became very likely, and it was part of a lot of conversations, including ones you very much said, you are gonna get nominated for an Oscar.

[Mark Kermode]

I thought you were.

[Jack Howard]

And we were on all the lists, all the predictions.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. So it wasn't a preposterous claim because you actually came perilously close to it.

[Jack Howard]

And then it didn't happen.

[Mark Kermode]

Then it didn't happen. Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

And that, I think, has only just started to hit me. How? I don't know, the whiplash of it, like, to have been working towards something for about seven or so months on the campaign with it going around all the film festivals, like, you know, the prediction lists, all the rest of it.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

And then it just stopped.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

And that was just before Christmas. And now here we are, middle of February, towards the end of February, and I think it's only just really hit me, like, wow, that was quite an intense experience to have. Yeah. And for that almost delusional idea of it could get nominated for a BAFTA or an Oscar.

[Mark Kermode]

But it's. It's not delusional. I mean. Okay, so the thing to say. Shall I leap in here or did you have more to say before?

[Jack Howard]

I know I wanted to just tell you that, like, it's something that.

[Mark Kermode]

It's been intense.

[Jack Howard]

It's been. It's. I think I've only just realized how intense it was.

[Mark Kermode]

As Vinnie Jones says, it's been emotional. So here's the thing that you. Not you. That one needs to understand firstly, all awards are ridiculous, of course. Okay? And I know this is taken as a given, but you can't say it enough times. All awards are ridiculous. The whole idea of comparing one film with another for a prize of best thing we made up yesterday, you know, Best Female Actor, Best Male Actor, Best Supporting Actor, best. You know, but it's, it's just, it's.

[Jack Howard]

It's.

[Mark Kermode]

It's all nonsense. The second thing is that it's all nonsense until the point that you get drawn into its. Into its gravity and suddenly it's not nonsense. So my only experience of is I have in my entire career. One, two, Sonic. They used to be called Sony Broadcasting Awards. I think they're now something else. There's another name for them now. Anyway, I can't remember what it is. But there was the year that I didn't get the gig presenting film 2010. You know, Claudia Winkleman ended up doing it. For some reason in that year, I won the best Specialist contributor thing. I always wondered whether. Did they do it, you know, because they felt bad about the fact that.

[Jack Howard]

Here's your consolation prize.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, I always. I mean, I always wonder whether that was part of it. And then the next year, Simon Mayo and I won the Sony Broadcasting Award for, you know, for best. Best talk between three and five on a Medium wave. You know what I mean? One of those. Those categories.

[Jack Howard]

There's no one else. It's just.

[Mark Kermode]

Exactly. And, you know, and, and so that was really. And then we never got nominated for any. Never got past anything ever again, you know, never. Never did. And I rem of thinking the really difficult thing about this is that I think that all awards are ridiculous. But I'm holding this one. I'm feeling so pathetically proud. And you need to snap out of it.

[Jack Howard]

It's annoying in it.

[Mark Kermode]

And I talked to a couple of people who've won lots of awards, and they all say exactly the same thing. It is absolutely true that. What? That you can't take winning anything seriously. Because if you do, it will mean that every year that you don't. You've. You. You experience this. This void. I said, yeah, but the weird thing is I never took awards seriously until suddenly I won one. And then it was this. And actually, I think one of the most dangerous thing about awards is that thing. It's like, you know, the, you know, the drug dealer thing about. I'll give you the first taste of heroin for free. I don't want heroin. Yeah, but I'll give you. Then suddenly you're an Addict.

[Jack Howard]

It's that it's a bit of that. And something I want to be very clear about when I'm talking about this is that I've got quite a clear separation in my mind of the film that I've made and how I feel about it and the quality of it and what the Oscars and the baftas are like. I don't kind of conflate the two things, but what it meant to me, the symbol of winning an award or being up for an award like that was booting in the door for me as a filmmaker and be like, I have arrived, and what I would have done, like, I'd almost, like, written the future. Do you know what I mean? Of, like, here's all the things that could have happened if I'd gotten to that stage. It never was about me standing on stage with an award. If anything, if I'm going to be choosy, I don't want to win an Oscar or BAFTA for a short film. But what I'm thinking is that, like, maybe it will be like the thing that gets me in the room to be able to make a feature at some point.

[Mark Kermode]

I know, I know.

[Jack Howard]

It's all of that stuff like this. I've already written the future, even though I don't know that would have happened.

[Mark Kermode]

But the key thing, and I'm not just saying this to be, you know, nice, because I'm not nice. I mean, I'm not. I mean, I'm really not. The thing is that the future that you've written is the future anyway, regardless of. So two things. The first thing I said in the BAFTAs were yesterday, we're recording this on Monday. The first thing I said is, can I have my laptop open? So why is it. Because I can't remember what one. I mean, literally the next day, I can't remember what one. And I can't remember what won the Oscars last year. And I can't remember any of that stuff. So the only way it has any significance is that you have to keep. If you win an award, you have to keep telling people that you won an award, which always makes you sound like a bit of a twat. Not you, but makes one. You know, the second thing is the most important thing about any of these, in any filmmaker will tell you this, and you know this more than most people, that you have to be delusional. You have to be delusional in order to do any of these campaigns, in order to do any of the stuff that's required in order to Publicize a

[Jack Howard]

movie, even just, just to try and make something happen that's in your head, in order to try and make that an actual thing, you have to have an element of delusional.

[Mark Kermode]

Exactly. You have to be fundamentally at odds with reality because the reality is you're not going to win anything. Not you. No one is going to win anything. The reality is no one wins the lottery. I know every week or every. Someone wins the lottery, but statistically that person is an anomaly. Okay. In actual terms, no one wins the lottery. So it's like when I think about that thing about the, that Sony Award, no one other than me. I mean, even if you trawl the Internet for proof of it, the fact is I've got the award. It's like short of actually showing it to somebody and also it's like, yeah, and what. And who cares? But I think the thing about what you were talking about, about that lead up, that excitement, that visualization, and then you're saying it isn't all gone.

[Jack Howard]

No, it's not.

[Mark Kermode]

Because actually that is the thing. In that long listing thing your name was in, it was the Hollywood Reporter

[Jack Howard]

or whatever it was in Variety and Variety. Yeah. And we were in all the kind of prediction lists that people do and all that stuff. It was wild.

[Mark Kermode]

So people know the name, they know the thing, They've seen it before. It's somewhere in the back of their brain. It's there. Okay. And whether you got nominated actually doesn't make a difference because people can't remember. And more importantly, you were in that kind of slightly turbocharged moment which when you're selling the film, when you're promoting the film, it helped at the time to be in the conversation because when we were talking about the film saying, yeah, it's going to get nominated, people, is it? Oh, I'm going, what? No, I'll go and watch it.

[Jack Howard]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

And so it's not that nothing happened. What happened is a trajectory happened that happened up until a certain point. And I, I do think this is really, really critical when it comes to awards. You have not you. One has to realize that the hoo ha, the stuff, the lead up, the blah, blah, that is the thing. And then there's a thing at the end of it that no one can remember and increasingly no one can remember because we now live in a kind of, in a culture in which things move so fast that no one's got the bandwidth to remember those things. So the only thing you could do is remind them. So I think that the, the contacts you will have made the connections you will have made. The fact that you're in Variety, the fact that people will have seen it, because it was in that conversation. The fact that we were literally having this conversation on the podcast going, yeah, I think you're going to get Oscar nominated. That in itself is the point. It's not that. Then that didn't happen, because all that stuff before did happen. And, you know, I say this to you, you're a friend of mine, but you're also a filmmaker. You are going to make a feature. And at some point when you win an award, you're going to have this thought in your head. One of them is going to be, I want the one. The award. And the other thought you're going to have is, yeah, you know, because what I want you to do when that happens is I want you to remember this moment. I want you to remember when you win something. I know you've won other things, you've won loads of festival things, but when you win, like an award, in your mind is a game changer. You need to remember this and hooray, be proud of it. But it isn't.

[Jack Howard]

Yes. It's not the be all, end all,

[Mark Kermode]

everything, everything up to it, everything that got you.

[Jack Howard]

And I think that that is mostly what I'm trying to describe is actually this thing that for longer than it has existed, existed only in my head.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

And then since I made it a real thing, I was spending a lot of my every waking moment working towards, like, furthering it.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

And then all of a sudden, that chapter closed.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

And so I think what I'm still processing is like, okay, that chapter is over now.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, I know. I know somebody else who, who worked on a feature had exactly the same experience.

[Jack Howard]

I know who you're talking about.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. But.

[Jack Howard]

But I won't.

[Mark Kermode]

But it's fine. But we know, and, you know, they were in the conversation and then it didn't happen. And it's, you know, after a while you become more philosophical about it, but it's. I think it's perfectly, perfectly justified to go, huh? But, you know, that's that. Because that, you know, I don't know whether you suffer from this, but I'm a great nostalgist. Right. And it used to be the case that nostalgia was considered to be an illness, you know, to be. To be somebody who sort of lost in that they kind of. That's like that melancholia. Melancholia was an illness, you know, But I think it. One of the things that therapy taught me.

[Jack Howard]

This is why I wanted to talk to you about it. We're both therapy boys.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Yeah, we are. We're both therapy boys.

[Jack Howard]

That's. We've renamed the podcast.

[Mark Kermode]

Sounds so terrible.

[Jack Howard]

Gamer on film.

[Mark Kermode]

Therapy boys. The return Therapy voice. Is that actually the thing about. So this sounds so terrible. Embracing the sadness. Embracing the. Embracing. Oh, you know, the disappointment that it's really important not to pretend that it's not there.

[Jack Howard]

That's exactly what I've been doing for the last couple of months.

[Mark Kermode]

What? Pretending that it isn't there.

[Jack Howard]

Just trying to move on, just power through. And I only realized in the last couple of days, which is what inspired me to talk to you about it at the beginning of this is like I. Oh, I haven't been letting myself feel what I really feel, which is I've been trying to just race to whatever the next thing would be.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jack Howard]

And I've not allowed myself to be like, oh, no, I'm disappointed. And I have to say goodbye to this thing that I put all of myself into. My girlfriend Ailey, she put very aptly. That's what being an artist is like. You take a huge swing and, you know, then you down tools, you rest, and then you get up and you do it again. Get up and you do it again.

[Mark Kermode]

And I mean, also that it's not just, you know, awards in a way, is a kind of sort of crystallizing thing, but it. That is the whole process of making anything. So one of the. One of my great loves in life is loving something that was rejected when it first came out. And then later on everyone realizes that, you know, that you were right. I was right.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

That is one of the things I love most. But so, for example, you know the Dexy, the third Dexy's Midnight Runners album, Don't Stand Me down, which, when it came out, just tanked. But now it's the smart choice. Everyone knows that Don't Slam Me down is the best sexy Midnight Runners album. It's slightly different. When you make a film that is really well received, it's so. It's not even that you can go, I was right and you were all wrong. Because everybody. Everybody saw that at the time. But I do think there is a thing in you get up and you take a swing, and you take a swing at seven different times and one of them will hit. And I guarantee you the one that hits will be, yeah, okay, I'm glad it was that one. But actually, that wasn't my best one. You know, Scorsese won the Oscar for

[Jack Howard]

the Departed, which I do really like. But it was, it was sorry for Goodfellas. That's what it kind of was.

[Mark Kermode]

There we go. Fun. It was sorry for Goodfellas. That was exactly what it was. In the same way that when Jeremy Irons won the Oscar for Reversal of Fortune, it was sorry for Dead Ringers. You were great in both of those roles in Dead Ringers. Well done. You know, so it is, there's always the thing about it's, it's, it's never going to be the, the right thing. I have somebody who's very close to me, who's in a band, is currently cross because the track that they have made, that everyone loves, is not the track that they think is the best track on the album.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, right.

[Mark Kermode]

And it's driving them nuts.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, I bet.

[Mark Kermode]

You know, it's like actually driving them nuts because they know.

[Jack Howard]

But.

[Mark Kermode]

And you're going, but just you're not listening properly. Take the win. That's the, you know, that's, that's thing. But I do think that thing about allowing yourself to feel a little deflated, allowing yourself to feel a little sad, a little crushed, allowing yourself to feel all those things and then.

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[Mark Kermode]

brushing yourself off and getting on and, you know, and doing it again. Because it will happen. I mean it genuinely. I'm not just saying that it will. You're a talented filmmaker. You've got. You've got a great future ahead of you. But when you do win, remember this.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Remember this moment.

[Jack Howard]

And I wanted to talk about this with you in this format because I knew that you'd have pearls of wisdom. And I also want that anybody who's listening to this, because I guarantee we will have, you know, filmmakers or future filmmakers listening to this podcast, and I want them to know the reality of it as well, because I never expected my first, like, proper debut in short film territory to have this kind of an impact. And for it to, you know, what, done what it's done and to have had the conversation around it that it's had, and it's a strange world to find yourself in. And then when it stops, it is a crazy. It is a crazy feeling. And I just. I've been trying to avoid it for the last couple of months, and now here we are, and I'm finally accepting that. Oh, I'm a bit disappointed by that, but God damn it, I'm so proud of, like, everything me and my team around me were able to achieve.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

With so little support from anywhere else. And I just want to say as well that I don't know if you know this, but the film itself was crowdfunded from Kickstarter the second time around. It was completely crowdfunded.

[Mark Kermode]

And this is a way of telling me that I didn't give you any money. You.

[Jack Howard]

You didn't?

[Mark Kermode]

Did you ask me.

[Jack Howard]

Don't know if I did, but do

[Mark Kermode]

you know that I didn't.

[Jack Howard]

My dad also couldn't figure out how to do it, so he just sent me, like, some money to my bank account. Would use that, because I actually got a thing through from my dad that said zero, that he'd submitted zero dollars to the Kickstart. And I was like, dad, what are you doing?

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, but here's the thing. It's good that I didn't fund it, because then I wouldn't have been able to review it. You know, that got me out. Objectively got me out. That.

[Jack Howard]

No, that's not why I brought it up. I only bring it up because I. I want to just say again, it is amazing to me that we were trying for so long to try and get this thing made by any means necessary. Going to all the places you'd think to go to try and Find funding for a short film, it's hard to do that. No one wanted it.

[Mark Kermode]

Where are the places now? Was it bfi?

[Jack Howard]

All those kind of places? It's everywhere. You can think of every fund that comes up. No one was taking a chance on it. And so I turned to Kickstarter almost reluctantly because I was worried about being publicly embarrassed.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

And it not actually being funded at all.

[Mark Kermode]

So just for the. For the older members of the audience.

[Jack Howard]

Sure.

[Mark Kermode]

So Kickstarter, basically you put a thing on which says, this is our, our aim to fund this much and if you don't get that much, then none of the money.

[Jack Howard]

I think with Kickstarter there's another one called Indiegogo where I think you have to get the amount of money. Or maybe it's the other way around, I don't know. But with Kickstarter I think it is the case that you don't get the money if you don't raise the amount.

[Mark Kermode]

So what you do is you basically put out things, say, I'm Jack Howard,

[Jack Howard]

I want 17 and a half thousand pounds. Please donate, please donate to this thing. Here are some perks that you will get on certain tier lists. Like if you.

[Mark Kermode]

What would the perks be like?

[Jack Howard]

For example, here's a copy of the script, here's a download of the poster. You can have a call with like an hour long call with me. You can have an hour long call with me where I read a script. Well, if you wanted it to be like that. It depends how much they submitted. But essentially we did.

[Mark Kermode]

That was a really cheap trip.

[Jack Howard]

There's no such thing as a cheap trip. And it went exceptionally well. We actually raised over £30,000.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow.

[Jack Howard]

And what was the average kind of

[Mark Kermode]

donation was like 1530.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. Between there. But then there was a few people who. There was one person who submitted us like 1500 pounds.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow.

[Jack Howard]

I can't.

[Mark Kermode]

Because they like the script.

[Jack Howard]

But. No, because they liked the work that I'd done previously because they liked the sound of the idea no matter what it was. But the reason I bring it up is because right now I think more so than ever before, it is really difficult to try and get anything made. It's also in some ways easier because you can just, you know, the invention.

[Mark Kermode]

Because we're off books.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. When it's easier than ever before in some ways because of obviously digital cameras and everything, you'd have to pay for celluloid. But trying to find a way to make something ambitious happen is really difficult.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

And so having just regular people who liked the sound of the idea. Just having around 500 people go, yeah, I want to help you make that happen. Still, honestly, like, moves me tremendously. Like, the fact that those people just wanted my thing to exist because I thought it sounded like a cool idea

[Mark Kermode]

and they'd like it to be in

[Jack Howard]

the world and they'd like it to be in the world is crazy to me. And I just wanted to say, like, here again, thank you to all those people for doing that. And I guess what I'm doing is I'm just kind of wrapping up, like, this. This whole thing that you have been there for from the very, very beginning. Like, you. You knew about it before it, from the moment that it was finished. You were the first person we showed it to. Is that the first person in the Act 1 cinema? That was the first time we did.

[Mark Kermode]

Perfect place to see it.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. First time we'd ever watched it on a big screen. You gave us a spot on the MK3D to talk about it. You've been so supportive. You've been so supportive of the whole thing, and I genuinely feel so grateful.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, you don't need to feel grateful because, I mean, firstly, I wouldn't have done any of it if they didn't like it. Didn't think you were actually talented. But also. Also because as a filmmaker, it's one thing to say it's really hard to make a film, but it's also another thing to say, but I did do it, and it is possible. And I. There is. There is a little thing which happens sometimes more with maybe older filmmakers who go, yeah. Anyone thinking of getting into film? Don't.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That real pessimistic, kind of like.

[Mark Kermode]

Shut up.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

When we. When it was my day, the BBC had funding to shoot on celluloid. Nowadays, don't. And it's like, well, no, it's different. And it is difficult, but it's also important to what you just did, which is to say it is difficult and there are heartbreaks involved in it.

[Jack Howard]

But I got it done and it was good. There are people in the industry now that I find incredibly inspiring. People like Zach Kreger, who spent the better part of a decade trying to, like, switch his career. The reason why I feel like a

[Mark Kermode]

kinship with him, Zach Gregor, who made.

[Jack Howard]

Who made Weapons, he made Barbarian, but he, before this was in a sketch comedy troupe and has now transitioned successfully into being maybe one of the most popular horror directors of the current time. And then there's people like the guys who make Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Have you heard of this yet? Okay, this is going to be coming our way pretty soon.

[Mark Kermode]

What is it?

[Jack Howard]

It's. We'll talk about it when it comes out. But essentially it was the guys who made a web series before web series were even properly a thing. They ended up making a TV show. They've met now made this movie that's completely independently funded. And these are the people that I like to look to and hear what they have to say about, about things because they are going out and just doing it. They are just making that happen. People like Sean Baker, obviously. Sean Baker is now completely like, he still makes independent films, but does. But independent films with 3 million dollar budgets and you know, whatever amount of money was behind that Oscar campaign for last year for an aura. But like he's somebody which was considerably more than the budget, considerably more than the budget for the film. And he, you know, those are the kind of people that I like to look to and go, well, they just do it. And that's, that's kind of. I need to find that energy again, I think because damn, I feel like at the end of how much time I spent into this 10 minute short film, it might as well have been a feature. And I think that that's. The next thing is like I'm, I'm gonna have to find the energy to do that.

[Mark Kermode]

The next thing is to make it. Did you see Iron Lung?

[Jack Howard]

No, but I'm again, I find that very inspiring.

[Mark Kermode]

See the really interesting thing about Iron Lung, so I haven't seen it yet. I know people who have seen it and most people say it's. But it, but the fact that he got it made.

[Jack Howard]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

Is the story.

[Jack Howard]

The summary of this is that there's a YouTuber called Markiplier who is very famous for doing like video game commentary kind of stuff, but has always had an interest in voice acting and directing and all that kind of stuff. He's independently made a video game, a video game adaptation of. It's a film called Iron Long that I think cost. I think it did end up costing about $3 million, but I think he completely independently did it. There is no traditional studio studio attached. He's completely independently released it and in the first weekend it made over $20 million.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. And in the, in its opening day it went to number one in the box office in America.

[Jack Howard]

And that was because he got his fan base to literally call around to certain cinemas and say, can you please get this film in the cinema? And they did. And now it's this huge, huge independent success. So even that, like, maybe not the kind of film I would make, but that doesn't matter. It's. It's the kind of the. The story behind the fact that he just did it.

[Mark Kermode]

But what's really interesting is, like I said, a lot of people who I know have seen it say it's not great. But they went to see it. And partly they went to see it because they liked the idea that he'd done it, and partly they went to see it because he's got this huge online following, which of course is now, you know, that is a demonstration of you can get, you know, a huge social media following behind you. And that kind of cuts out that you need for advertising. But also I just think people are thinking, well, good on you. Yeah, you know, yeah, okay, I'll go see the film.

[Jack Howard]

It's not also kind of like shaking up Hollywood a bit. Like, they're like, oh, my God, you did it without us. Like, you didn't need our commercial advertising budget.

[Mark Kermode]

Do you remember when everyone got off their bike because Andrea Riseborough got an Oscar nomination without an Oscar campaign? And they were like, we have to disqualify her.

[Jack Howard]

Well, that actually brings us very, very nicely onto the baftas from yesterday. And the biggest story from that is the best act to win.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. Which was Robert Aramayo. Aramayo. Here's the interesting thing. He's Arameo, Right. Okay. He said. I said to him, I interviewed him a while ago. I said, it's Spanish. He went, yeah, the Spanish pronunciation is Aramayo. But I say Aramayo because he's from Hull. Exactly.

[Jack Howard]

But the best thing about that is that he was. I wouldn't even say he was an underdog. I think he was somebody who was like, it was nice to be. Not that he was nominated. No chance in hell. When you're against Leonardo DiCaprio, Timothee, Chalamet, Ethan Hawke. And I think there must be somebody else in there as well that I'm forgetting.

[Mark Kermode]

It was yesterday and I can't remember. I can't remember.

[Jack Howard]

You were there.

[Mark Kermode]

Point proof proven.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. You know, and he walked away with it. And I think that him winning a BAFTA is gonna do more for him than it would for any of the other people that were nominated firstly. But also the joy in the room, his dad jumping around and yelling and crying is. Was the moment of the awards for me, like, seeing that. And. Yeah, just. Just wonderful.

[Mark Kermode]

An interesting thing about that, that was. So I was in the BAFTAs. And there's this whole other story which I actually don't want to get into now because it's. We're recording this on Monday and by the time you listen to the podcast, this story will have changed. But obviously there was. The thing with John Davidson was in the room. John Davidson has Tourette's. John Davidson shouted a racial epithet which then the BBC didn't edit out. Okay, let's just. So let's just, just, just know that

[Jack Howard]

we're annoyed about that.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah. Know that by the time you listen to this, people will have resigned.

[Jack Howard]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

Anyway, so I sat down and the person next to me said, hi, how you doing? Blah, blah, blah. And then they said, I'm, you know, I'm. And they were working on Robert Aramao's campaign and they said, just tell me honestly, what do you think? I said, well, I think he's got a shot at the rising star. And I went, okay. And best actor. I went, yeah, no, yeah, you know, don't be silly. No, literally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, literally. That is Timothy Chalamet.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

You know, if you're not read the place. And when it happened, when, when the, the award was announced, I literally went. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with

[Jack Howard]

a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good

[Mark Kermode]

in this world, stop with Mint.

[Jack Howard]

You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments.

[Mark Kermode]

But that's weird.

[Jack Howard]

Okay, one judgment.

[Mark Kermode]

Anyway, give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for

[Noom Advertiser]

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[Mark Kermode]

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[Mark Kermode]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com and then because it was like, I mean, I can't remember the last time I was that surprised. And I stood up as I did it. And then of course there was a standing ovation in the room because as you say, that feeling of joy which was just. And then him giving that speech was, I can't believe I'm standing in front of you lot, you know, literally pointing

[Jack Howard]

at DiCaprio being like, I can't believe I'm standing here being in the same category.

[Mark Kermode]

Did you see Timothee Chalamet was laughing.

[Jack Howard]

Was he?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, and God bless him for that because it doesn't make any difference to his Oscar campaign because he's not up against Robert Aram for the Oscars anyway. But also because it was losing to Leonardo DiCaprio, losing to this bloke that literally before they walked into the room, they wouldn't even have heard of was just. Yeah, it was just wonderful with the Rising Star and that in the same year.

[Jack Howard]

I honestly was like the same as you. Just watching it, being like, I think it's going to be Timothee Chalamet, but maybe it's been quite one battle after another. Heavy. Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

So maybe it will be DiCaprio. Not even thinking that would be a possibility.

[Mark Kermode]

I was literally this woman, she said, she said she's very, very nice working with on his team. And you know, I said, yeah, I think he's got a shot at the Rising Star.

[Jack Howard]

Another one that I want to mention as well is that I, on the campaign that I was on with second time around, we were often screening alongside this animated shorts called Two Black Boys in Paradise. And Dean, who wrote the poem for that originally was a co writer on the film. Just wonderful to see them win.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. That was the favorite though, easily.

[Jack Howard]

I mean, I had all confidence that they were going to walk away with it. I mean, just don't think there was any competition really for them to win that award. It's a wonderful film and I'm so happy to like, just watching his social media for the last 24 hours has just been, again, joyous. Just seeing him just on the train back to Ealing, like holding the bafta, like, it's just, yeah, just lovely to

[Mark Kermode]

see those things about. In the end, the the really important parts of the world are often the ones that everyone over. You know, your short film, anyway, who won Best Actor? You know, it is that thing about if, if, if. If you're on that trail and you see, you said yourself, you know, suddenly you get an awful lot invested in it. But you also have to remember that. That the moment passes, you know, the moment comes and then the moment passes. And all that matters is what you do with that momentum, what you do with that, you know, because I told you this. I don't know. I did tell you this, but. So Joachim Trier. Have I told you this about how Joachim Trier owes me his entire career?

[Jack Howard]

No, you've never said that to me before.

[Mark Kermode]

So what happened was.

[Jack Howard]

So does he think that. Yeah, okay.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, so. Well, maybe not in so many words. So maybe you wouldn't phrase it like that. Yeah, well, he should. Let me tell you the story. Okay, so Sentimental Value won Best International Feature. Right. And it's got a pretty good chance of winning at the Oscar, which is strange because I think for a long time I thought that it was just an accident.

[Jack Howard]

Absolutely thought it was a shoe in. And I feel like it, in my opinion, should win.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, I mean. Yeah, so there's a big debate, and this is again, the absurdity of awards. Okay, so let's compare a film made by a filmmaker who is constantly being imprisoned by the authorities, making films. Making films. And Sentimental Value. Yeah, okay. So anyway, but. So that's the absurdity of it. Of course, when you look at that category, it's always the most interesting category. Of course it is, because it's films from around the world. Anyway, so Joachim trick came on MK3D, the show that you talked about earlier on, and he came into the room and I had really loved his previous film and I really, really loved this.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, I really, really like Worst Person in the World. It is really just.

[Mark Kermode]

It's the scene when she runs across. Anyway, so he comes in the room and I go, oh, such a pleasure to meet you. And he says, we have met. Yeah, exactly. He's always like, when? And he said, well, you won't remember this. I was thinking, right. I don't remember this. He said, do you remember back in the. And it must have been the 90s that you presented a program on Channel 4 called Shooting Gallery. Now this is before you were born, probably. When were you born?

[Jack Howard]

1992.

[Mark Kermode]

No, it was after you were born that you were a child. And it was a late night Channel four program that showcased short films. Okay, so there'd be like five short films shown in the. In the course of the evening. And I would pick the ones that I liked and. And then I'd interview the director of it. You know, it would always be some Oiki kid from the NFTs or, you know, one of those things. Anyway, he said, one of the films that you picked was my film. And it was my first ever television interview because you interviewed me. And I said to you, you know, I'm gonna go on and be a feature filmmaker and one day you'll review one of my feature films. And I went, I have absolutely no memories. Of course I don't, because that, you know, it was like, you know, 50 shows of that thing. And I said, so, in a way, I gave you your career. And he said, yeah,

[Jack Howard]

so that was for a short film he'd made, short

[Mark Kermode]

film he'd made, which I remember nothing about at all because it was like, you know, I'm 63 and I don't remember what day of the week it is.

[Jack Howard]

And it was the 90s,

[Mark Kermode]

and if you remember the 90s, you weren't there. But. But it's. It was just so weird because obviously for him, it was a point in his career when, of course, he remembers it really clearly because it was the first time he'd been on television and he made his short film and he kind of, you know, I mean, I was the film Critic at Radio 1 At that point, so if you were young, you may have. You may know who I was. You know, I mean, I'm an old man now, but I, you know, I. I was quite hip at one point.

[Jack Howard]

It was very long, you can't phrase it like that, but I was quite hip once. I know the lingo exactly.

[Mark Kermode]

I was down with the kids and, you know, I swear, I. Leather jacket. I used to wear leather trousers, you know, but anyway. But. But it was just this lovely thing about that kid who I don't even remember. Yeah. But whose short film I did like then went on to be Joachim Trio.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

That's not bad, is it?

[Jack Howard]

That's not bad. I'm hoping that there's a sort of history repeating situation happening.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, that's right.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

And then. But then I will remember you when you get featured. You go, mark, do you remember me? I go, yeah, Dean, isn't it?

[Jack Howard]

So to bring it back to the baftas, the big winner, obviously, was one battle after another. I think rightly so.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

I kind of. We've not talked about this yet, but I agree with you that I Think Hamnet is a bit too emotionally manipulative for me. Like, it was hitting me over the head with a sad stick, I think. I think it's beautifully done. But I do think that I like a film, really, that's got more of a rhythm in terms of tone. And this just sort of goes further and further and further and further. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Look at her. She's. She's real sad. She's fucking dead sad.

[Mark Kermode]

And here is on the Nature of Daylight. I tell you how sad she is.

[Jack Howard]

That did bother me because I was like, you can't.

[Mark Kermode]

You do know that when Max Richter came on set and found that they were playing on the Nature of Daylight, he'd written a piece right. For that.

[Jack Howard]

And he went, they had to convince him to not not.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. He said, you do know it's a really famous piece. And Chloe Jar was saying, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was going,

[Jack Howard]

you know, I find interesting about it as well, is that when that move, that piece of music was used very famously in Arrival.

[Mark Kermode]

Rather brilliantly in arrival.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. Johan Johansson, who did the score for Arrival, which I also think is stunning.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

God rest him. And he was disqualified from being nominated for an Oscar that year for Best School because of that. Because people, they thought, oh, voters are going to get confused and think that that piece of music, which is usually prominently is part of your score. Max Richter.

[Mark Kermode]

Max Richter, yeah.

[Jack Howard]

Is nominated this year for Hamnet. But that piece of music is from 20 years ago.

[Mark Kermode]

I know. And it's so this. Okay, so this is.

[Jack Howard]

So. Is it just because it's him?

[Mark Kermode]

Listen, the Oscar qualification rules are. You know.

[Jack Howard]

You're telling me. Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

So Johnny Greenwood should have been nominated for There Will Be Blood.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. Is he not?

[Mark Kermode]

No. And he was disqualified.

[Jack Howard]

What?

[Mark Kermode]

And he was disqualified because Popcorn superhet receiver, or superhet Popcorn receiver, whatever the name of it, had been performed before by the BBC Concert Orchestra. I think it was Robert Ziegler. So what happened was he did Popcorn Superhot Receiver is what it's called. So he had written this piece. It was performed once by the BBC under Ziegler. Robert Ziegler conducted it. Paul Thomas Anderson heard it and said to Jonny Greenwood, can you do me more stuff like that? Johnny Greenwood then wrote the score, and the score was the most radical score of that year. And I think that what happened was the Oscars went, we don't want him. He's a pop star.

[Jack Howard]

Right.

[Mark Kermode]

Will get him disqualified. He was disqualified because the p. It was not an original piece of music.

[Jack Howard]

That's crazy.

[Mark Kermode]

It's absolutely nuts because. Absolutely nuts.

[Jack Howard]

I am a huge fan of Ludwig Goranson.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

And he is going to win his third Oscar.

[Mark Kermode]

And it's a shame because it. This. It really. In any. In any sensible year. And I understand why he's going to win because Sinners is a film in which the music tells the story. So I do understand that. But honestly, if you were Johnny Greenwood. I saw Johnny at the, the. At the BAFTAs, just very briefly. And you know, you know, he's like. He's. He doesn't like being in public at all. I think, you know, he's just. But it's that thing about in any other year he would. He would walk away because one battle after another score is amazing. But it will be Ludwig Goranson.

[Jack Howard]

It will be Ludwig Goranson. And one battle after another cleaned up at the baftas. It won best film, Best Director, Best adapted screenplay, Best supporting Actress, Best Supporting Actress. And I think, no, no, no.

[Mark Kermode]

They were sinners. Sinners won best.

[Jack Howard]

And I. But I think at the Oscars, it probably will be Teyana Taylor that will win best born Actress at the Oscars. And I. What just from this is not based on anything else. I think that One Battle after Another probably will win best Picture at the Oscars, and I think it will win best Director. I think it's Paul Thomas Anderson's time. It's one of those, like, here you go for all the years of work. But in the, the previous, like, Decade, the BAFTAs and the Oscars haven't really matched up very much in terms of what they've picked for best film, which is making me think that maybe, just maybe Sinners being the, you know, the most nominated film of in Oscars history, might actually pick up Best Picture.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, it's not, it's not beyond the. It's not beyond possibility. I mean, if you look at odds checker, one battle after another is so far ahead that if you put like 10 pounds in it, you get 40p. Do you remember the year that Juliet binoch.

[Jack Howard]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

One for. Was it the English Patient? And was it Lauren Bacall? It was her year. Was it Lauren Bacall?

[Jack Howard]

I don't remember.

[Mark Kermode]

Somebody really, Really. I think it was Lauren Bacall was really, really famous.

[Jack Howard]

I say I don't remember, but this is definitely going to be in a time when I was a child.

[Mark Kermode]

Mirror has two facts. Okay. So I think this, this is. Can I just say, incidentally, you can leave in all these mistakes because this is a perfect example of what I was saying earlier on. No one remembers. No one remembers anything.

[Jack Howard]

The one that I can remember is Olivia Colman winning Best Actress at the Oscars when everyone thought it was gonna be Glenn Close.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, right. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So that's a more recent example that's about. Yes. Because it was definitely Glenn Close's moment. It was definitely Glenn Close's time.

[Jack Howard]

And it was not the right film to give it to her for. For the wife.

[Mark Kermode]

I like that film. Yeah, no, no, I know, I know. But. But, you know, but Juliet. Juliette Binoch. And let's say for the purposes of this argument, it is Lauren McCall. If anyone's listening to this podcast and shouting and going, it wasn't Lauren Bacall, you idiot. Somebody else. I'm pretty. I think it was Juliette Binoche walked up on stage and went, oh, I thought it was going to be Lauren Bacall. And then all the cameras went to Lauren Mcall. This was the last time she was going to get the possibility. She had to go, oh, ha, ha ha ha.

[Jack Howard]

Kind of what Olivia Colman did. She got on stage and just sort of flustered and then went, oh, Lady Gaga.

[Mark Kermode]

But also when. When. When Anora won.

[Jack Howard]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

And Demi Moore.

[Jack Howard]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

Didn't. And everyone was going, you know, I mean, I think the Anora forms is absolutely brilliant. But it was Demi Moore's year.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. And it was the same as, well. Like when Emma Stone won her second Oscar for Poor Things, everyone thought it was going to be Lily. Lily Gladstone for Killers of the Flower Moon. And I think that's right. She looks really surprised by that as well. That's right.

[Mark Kermode]

I forgotten that this.

[Jack Howard]

I can't help it. Like, I'm. I'm fairly excited to see what happens with the Oscars, even though, as we've established, it's all nonsense.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, thanks for listening to or watching this Kermit on Film podcast. If you enjoyed it, subscribe. What are all the things they have to do, Jack?

[Jack Howard]

Smash the like button.

[Mark Kermode]

Smash the like button.

[Jack Howard]

Subscribe on YouTube, subscribe on the podcasts, and you'll get more of this. The next episode is about Pluribus, Vince Gilligan's new show, so I recommend you watch that before you listen to it. That'll be out next week.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. And if you want more conversation with me and Simon Mayo talking about movies every week, come out of Mayo's take. Wherever you get your podcasts, go away.

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[Mark Kermode]

hello, this is Simon Mayo and this is Mark kermode. He's the UK's best and most trusted film critic. He's a best selling writer, broadcaster, a national treasure, far too kind. Kermode Mayo's Take has all the reviews you need and star guests such as Sir Ian McKellen.

[Jack Howard]

Nice to be with you. Emma Stone that sounds like something I

[Mark Kermode]

would love to be a part of. Ewan McGregor I'm very good. How are you doing? Kate Planchette what was that word you used? Cattywampus. Kerma de Mayo's Take. All the film you need available wherever you get your podcasts.