← Kermode on Film
Kermode on Film
Are YouTube Filmmakers Taking over Hollywood?
00:32:28
Mark and Jack talk BACKROOMS and OBSESSION
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- [00:00]
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- [00:41]
Mark Kermode
Hi, this is Mark Cuomo. Thanks for unloading this Comet on Film podcast or indeed watching us on YouTube. I'm here at the Sun Pub in London's glittering West End. I'm joined once again by my good friend, Jack Howard.
- [00:50]
Jack Howard
Hey, that's my name.
- [00:51]
Mark Kermode
It is your name. Jack, what are we talking about today?
- [00:53]
Jack Howard
Hello. Hello, everyone. Today we're going to be talking about two sensations in cinema recently from YouTuber
- [00:59]
Mark Kermode
filmmakers, whatever that may or may not
- [01:01]
Jack Howard
mean, putting that in quotation marks, backrooms and obsession. These movies have taken the world by storm in the last few weeks. So we're going to be talking about those and the filmmakers behind it and Whether or not YouTube filmmakers are the future of Hollywood. And I'm biased because I am a YouTube filmmaker.
- [01:17]
Mark Kermode
Let's see how this goes then. You know, I do this podcast with Simon Mayo Kermode, Mayo's take. And on take two, there's an awful lot of email correspondence. We have a section called Questions in which people send in, you know, stuff to discuss. And we had an email a couple of weeks ago just after backrooms had opened really big. And the email was, do you think that the phrase YouTuber filmmaker will no longer have the stigma that it used to have as a result of backrooms doing really well and as a result of this kind of new generation of filmmakers coming up through YouTube. And you'll be very delighted to know that I cited you. I said, well, the interesting thing is that I remember back in the 1990s writing an article for Detail magazine about feature filmmakers who had come up through advertising and then the next generation had come up through pop videos. So the advertising generation, Adrian Line, you know, Ridley Scott, all those people. And at the time people said, oh, well, these advertising directors, I mean, they just make films that look like adverts and Then pop videos came along and everyone said, well, these pop video directors, they don't know how to tell a narrative because at least the advertising directors, you know, you've got 30 seconds, you got to do. Here's the product, here's the thing, here's the pack shop. But these, these pop video directors, they don't know how to tell a story. Now, of course, Spike Jones, Michelle, I mean, all these people who came through music, but now there is no, There is no way that you would say that is a bad thing. And I said, I just think the thing about filmmakers who learned their craft through YouTube, it's just the next generation of that. And I said, you know, I have a very good friend, Jack Howard, who came up through YouTube and is now a filmmaker, but I would never refer to him as a YouTube filmmaker in the same ways. I wouldn't refer to Ridley Scott as an advertising director or David Fincher as David Fincher. Exactly. You just wouldn't. And I do think that, that this, obviously you have more handle on this because you actually came through it. Do, do you think that as a result of the success of things like backrooms, that that emailer was correct, that that there, There isn't. There's no longer any form of stigma to any of that stuff? Because why would there.
- [03:27]
Jack Howard
I hope not. Because, I mean, people don't say to
- [03:30]
Mark Kermode
you, oh, YouTuber Jack Howard, do they?
- [03:32]
Jack Howard
Well, it does come up still because. Well, I think it's fair. Fair because it's where I kind of started everything and it's still really where, like, I was mainly known for being. But.
- [03:42]
Mark Kermode
But people don't call me enemy. Writer Mark Kermo.
- [03:45]
Jack Howard
Sure. Yeah. But what I mean is that, like, I mean, first I just want to say that I think it's interesting that. I think it's interesting that there's been this big conversation. I get it. But there's been this big conversation recently about obsession and about backrooms coming from YouTuber filmmakers kind of back to back, like maybe a weekend or two apart. But this isn't anything new. No. Like, Bo Burnham has, like made a film and, you know, is a sensation. And he was making YouTube videos in 2006 when he was like a teenager and has gone on to become like, basically, I think, a generation defining comedian and performer. And I think you can look at anybody from that who watched YouTube and has watched comedy from this kind of generation. You can see the fingerprints of Bo Burnham everywhere. And then obviously you've got the talk to me. Directors.
- [04:33]
Mark Kermode
Yeah, you've Got brothers who, of course, you know. Absolutely. That is. That was their. Their bread and butter was comedy, horror.
- [04:40]
Jack Howard
But they didn't get. They. I mean, there was a little bit of a conversation about, like, oh, they came from YouTube, which is kind of what has been happening. Oh, they. From YouTube. Like, that's been happening a lot. But, you know, the. The director of Together, which came out last year.
- [04:52]
Mark Kermode
Yeah. Which is a terrific film.
- [04:53]
Jack Howard
Michael's last name. We've talked about Red Light Fever before. It's getting me again. I know him. Do you know how I know him? I did a short film a few years ago.
- [05:03]
Mark Kermode
See, I don't know him, so it's all right. Forget his name. It's fine.
- [05:06]
Jack Howard
But I did a short film a few years ago that I acted in for my friends Tim and Joe, who directed it. And it was. I mean, it's very, like, you know, very typical for me. It was his time travel comedy, and he did. The director, did the visual effects for this short film.
- [05:23]
Mark Kermode
What you should do on this video, you should put as a visual effect his name at the bottom. Now, when you've gone and you finished,
- [05:28]
Jack Howard
you've looked it up, can you. I'm talking to. To our cameraman, Rich. Can you look it up for me, please? Because I feel very embarrassed about the fact that I've forgotten what it is. But coming to the point of. It's very weird to me that this has been the big headline recently for these two filmmakers, because it's not new. Like, this has been happening. I suppose what is new is the immense success, like the fact that. And, you know, I'm sure that everyone knows by now Obsession was made for $700,000 and has since taken, at the time of recording, about $225 million.
- [05:58]
Mark Kermode
And it deserves to, because it's really good.
- [06:01]
Jack Howard
It's great. And so is backrooms. The backrooms open to over $100 million. I actually saw a picture on Socials that was like, here's Christopher Nolan's last film, Oppenheimer. Denis Villeneuve's last film, Dune Part 2, and here's Cory Barker's film Obsession. And they all opened to $81 million. It's crazy when you see it like that. And that's the thing.
- [06:23]
Mark Kermode
And Steven Spielberg was interviewed at the
- [06:25]
Jack Howard
premiere, said he'd seen it, loved it,
- [06:27]
Mark Kermode
saying, oh, yeah, you know, it's great because.
- [06:30]
Jack Howard
Of course, because imagine how that. I can't. I can only imagine how that feels. And this is something I'm going to just flag early on. I am so happy this is happening. But also, I can't help but deny. I can't. I'm sorry. But also I can't deny that I'm also like, jealous. This is. I'm jealous of this. I'm looking at it being like, I'm supposed to be the YouTube guy who came out and made films, like. And I'm supposed to be doing that and I'm like, still trying. But it's also because they're so young as well. Kane Parsons, who made back rooms, is 20 and Cory Barker is 25, because the whole narrative.
- [07:04]
Mark Kermode
So firstly because I am an older generation, so this is all new to me. When I saw Backrooms, I hadn't seen the, any of the viral series and I, after seeing the film, I went and saw some bit and said, oh, that's interesting. I can see how, I can see how that led to. That led to that Child two, who was the person who introduced me to you, said, dad, you know, of course, 4chan. I went, yeah, I know about 4chan. He went, how do you know about 4chan? I went, QAnon. He went, oh, yeah, of course, you know.
- [07:33]
Jack Howard
But yeah, you don't frequent 4chan.
- [07:35]
Mark Kermode
No, yeah, but that whole thing about. Yeah, I did know about them because I do bother to do my research. But the crucial thing was because he was either 20 or 21, there was a thing about, you know, a 24's youngest feature director. Subsequently a flurry of people saying, well, obviously he didn't direct it.
- [07:54]
Jack Howard
Crazy in it.
- [07:54]
Mark Kermode
Obviously it was, it was Osgood Perkins. Yeah, obviously it was one of the other big names or something, because obviously no 20, 21 year old could possibly do that. And I saw him interviewed.
- [08:04]
Jack Howard
He's so, he's so smart.
- [08:06]
Mark Kermode
He knew his way around the back rooms and he knew his. No, but he did. I mean, it was like he'd created world. He put a long time into creating it and he knew how to make films because he'd been doing it for a long time. And you know, I. Yeah.
- [08:18]
Jack Howard
Where's the stigma come from all of a sudden? Like. Because it's not like, like it's not like we've never heard that. I mean, Soderbergh won the Palme d' or when he was 25 and Spielberg
- [08:27]
Mark Kermode
was making features when he was in his. There was, there was the whole thing about. I think both Spielberg and William Friedkin lied about their age in order to make their success happen. Earlier on. In the case of Kane Parsons, if I was him, I'd be lying about it to make me sound older because everyone's going, well, you can't possibly have directed. Here's another funny thing. I was walking around the other day wearing a Clash T shirt. Okay? I love the clash, right? I'm 63. I'm wearing a T shirt with an image of my musical heroes on it, all of whom were like children, an old man wearing a T shirt. But they made records that I listen to now. You know, Elvis was really, really young when he first started, you know, being successful. So this idea that no 20, 21 year old could have made this. Like, what do you think they've been doing for this?
- [09:18]
Jack Howard
You know, Also, do you know what directing is? Like, you've surrounded it like the DOP shot, Osgood Perkins, his last film keeper, and has worked on other projects like that. And I'm imagining as well that the rest of the crew, the production designer, the editor, like the screenplay was written by somebody else. You've surrounded Kane Parsons with very experienced, brilliant people. And he has a creative vision. He's not going around shooting it himself. Like, I don't know what everyone thinks that directing is.
- [09:46]
Mark Kermode
Well, I remember Clive Barker, again, this is from a previous generation, Clyde Barker, very, very successful horror novelist who then became a successful horror filmmaker. He made Hellraiser, which kind of, you know, changed the face of modern horror, and then made Night Breed. And I remember interviewing Clive about his very first day on set. And he'd said. He said it was like this. He said. He walked out and set went, oh, okay, who's in charge? Oh, God. But what he realized was that he had surrounded himself with people who knew. Yeah, what they're doing. And of course, there's the very famous story that, you know, Orson Welles, when he was making Citizen Kane, after the first day, which it was a complete disaster, he was taken aside by a cinematographer and shown, I think it was Stagecoach. This is how you do a shot. This is how you do a counter shot. This is what crossing the line is. These are the rules now. Go back and make one of the greatest films of all time. So that thing about, of course, if that. Anyone who is sensible understands that a novitiate director will surround themselves with people that know what they're doing.
- [10:46]
Jack Howard
It also, I think will be happening. I started making, you know, they were bad films, but I started running around with a camera making stuff when I was, you know, 13, 14 years old or something. And I think that the technology getting more and more readily available is going to make that process of getting better and better at it happen quicker and quicker and quicker. So I'm not surprised that Kane Parsons knows how, like the basics of filmmaking that he's able to go in, surround himself with all these people and make something that's brilliant because you're learning about it and experimenting with it really early on. You know what else is really great about having made a career on YouTube? You have a relationship with an audience in a different way to any other person who's, like, going to film school, who maybe isn't, like, basically what I would call practicing in front of an audience, making stuff and putting it out in front of people. And then the potential of millions of people seeing that. You get to see in real time what people think of it. You get to see people commenting on certain moments, even quoting them or whatever. And for me, when I was coming up, I was like, that's very. It's not like I even really internalized it properly, but it was like, that's really useful because now I'm going to start putting stuff in the scripts and in. I'm going to start putting in jokes in or things like that where you're going to see somebody's going to catch this, somebody's. And so it gives you the confidence when you're going into larger stuff that you can do stuff like that, that maybe if somebody isn't auditioning or practicing in front of an audience, they don't get that muscle. I feel like I've got that trained muscle of how an audience might react to stuff because I've had the privilege of doing it in front of hundreds of thousands to millions of people.
- [12:14]
Mark Kermode
You see, it's interesting. So Spielberg began his filmmaking making home movies, you know, making sure. Shooting on, I presume, Super 8. It would have been. When we were kids, nobody had a Super 8 camera. Maybe one child in 400 had a Super 8 camera. So Spielberg had the jump on all his, you know, classmates, all the rest of it. By the time he actually started making stuff, he'd had seven, eight years of making films. The difference with what's happening now is because everyone has got a mobile phone. It's just democratized it. It's MEANT Everybody who's 13, 14 can probably start making movies probably younger than that.
- [12:49]
Jack Howard
Shooting in 4K.
- [12:51]
Mark Kermode
Yeah, exactly. But so it's not surprising.
- [12:54]
Jack Howard
The first film I ever shot was on like a flip phone and I couldn't even get it on my computer. So I had to use this, like, free software to convert it so I could use it in my editing program. And it still had Like a green watermark on it. And I was like, that'll do. Like that's the first film I made. Whereas obviously it's so easy to go. It's on my phone, it's on my computer, I can edit it on my phone if I want. Like it's, it's crazy how that thing about.
- [13:13]
Mark Kermode
You've therefore got a generation of filmmakers now who have got seven or eight years jump on the previous generation because. Just because the technology was there available to them. So firstly the thing about. I don't believe a 20 year old can make this. Well then you really haven't been watching. The other thing is, and this is, I think the thing that I find particularly fascinating is the way in which the, the, the feel of horror has been populated by people who have come out of comedy shorts now.
- [13:40]
Jack Howard
I know, interesting in it.
- [13:41]
Mark Kermode
Yeah, there's always been a connection. I mean, you know, obviously Evil Dead for me is like one of the sort of the sacred texts. And Sam Raimi always said that the Evil Dead movies were basically Three Stooges movies with blood and gut standing in for custard pies. But I think it's a. I think it's two things. Firstly, I think it's to do with timing.
- [13:58]
Jack Howard
Yeah, of course.
- [13:58]
Mark Kermode
Secondly, I think it's to do with involuntary response. Comedy and horror share one key thing which is that they provoke involuntary response, whether it's laughter or, you know, laughing, screaming. And I think it is really interesting how many people, you go back to Jordan Peele and you know, there's a whole lineage before that, how much coming through comedy shorts has led into really interesting horror filmmaking.
- [14:25]
Jack Howard
Totally. And I think there's something interesting happening in the world as well, which is that when I was a teenager you had things like Superbad, you had like those kind of mid budget comedies that have kind of disappeared and you. And whenever they get made, there's one every so often. Like Booksmart really stood out. But most of the time I think the filmmakers that may have gone on to make movies like that, those kind of films don't really feel like they make sense at the moment in our world. Like I don't think for some reason
- [14:52]
Mark Kermode
Super Bad never felt like it made sense.
- [14:54]
Jack Howard
Oh, I love Super Bad.
- [14:56]
Mark Kermode
I know, I know, I know it's generational, it's generational.
- [14:59]
Jack Howard
It is generational, but I think it's a miracle. Super Bad. But what I mean is that like there's something about that kind of comedy that at the moment doesn't really feel like it makes sense in 2026. And horror movies about what they're about and about how horrible the world is and how horrible people can be feel like they make more sense. And also there's like a sick sense of humor to all of it as well. Like, like Zach, even Arasta is, is kind of laughing at his films. Like he, he finds them funny even if we don't. Well, there's like a sixth sense of humor happening in all of these.
- [15:33]
Mark Kermode
I do, I do think that Beau is afraid is hilarious.
- [15:36]
Jack Howard
It's hilarious for an hour and a half and then it becomes.
- [15:38]
Mark Kermode
No, but you see, the thing is
- [15:39]
Jack Howard
a bit of nonsense.
- [15:41]
Mark Kermode
I saw that film in a small screening room with Simon Mayo and he hated it. The more he hated it, the funnier it became.
- [15:46]
Jack Howard
It's like when I was watching I told you when I was watching the drama, which I also found hilarious. There's like an element of horror to that as well.
- [15:51]
Mark Kermode
Oh yeah, absolutely.
- [15:52]
Jack Howard
Next to me I had my friend Jacob who was cackling his ass off. And then on my right I had my friend Stephen Bridges who was watching it like through the tunnel of his hands. And it was became funnier to me that he was laughing and he was cringing. It is, I mean, now we're just advocating for the cinematic experience. Go to the cinema and see movies. It's great, but it's better.
- [16:09]
Mark Kermode
Go to the cinema and see movies. And it's quite often really interesting to see people responding differently. But I do think it is,
- [16:18]
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- [16:59]
Mark Kermode
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- [17:51]
Mark Kermode
Honestly, look, for me, it is very unusual now, particularly where I am, to be on the. To be on the side of the cutting edge. But honestly, I am genuinely shocked that people are going, oh, you know, these YouTubers, they're a bit up. It's like, where have you been? Have you not listened to pop music? Have you not watched any popular. Who do you think has made all, you know, all the great.
- [18:20]
Jack Howard
The route now, like that, it used to be like making music videos or making commercials or whatever. That route is closed. Like, there is no way a young filmmaker, trust me, I know, can go that route and, and make a career out of it easily. You have to make stuff happen for yourself. And the way to do that nowadays is obviously like, hey, TikTok exists like that. And so Cory Barker, who made Obsession, he is being described as a YouTube filmmaker. And that's true because he, you know, he had a couple of shorts and horrors and the sketches are on there. But his big breakthrough audience was on Tick Tock. Yeah, that's where it all happened. And it had a very. I think you should leave Tim Robinson's Tim Robin, you call him Tim Robbins. Tim Robinson. Yeah, that's his name. From. From Friendship. Yes. It had a very. That kind of vibe to it, which you obviously described as, well as having a bit of a horror.
- [19:09]
Mark Kermode
Yeah, no, I loved. I mean, I came up with you for exactly that reasons. It did.
- [19:12]
Jack Howard
Cory Barker, especially his performance, it got compared to that a lot. And ask you a question.
- [19:18]
Mark Kermode
Do you know these people? Is there, like, there's not like a community?
- [19:21]
Jack Howard
So I, I like, I say, like, did you find out who the director of Together is? So the director of Together, we've since looked it up. His name is Michael Shanks. I can DM him on Instagram and we'll chat every so often.
- [19:31]
Mark Kermode
Okay.
- [19:32]
Jack Howard
But with like Cory Barker and Kane Parsons, like, they're not people that I've ever crossed paths, but it doesn't mean that there's like, not Going to be another moment where somebody I know or I'm aware of is going to make a movie and make it big. I'm not going to be surprised by that at all.
- [19:44]
Mark Kermode
Does it feel really exciting?
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Jack Howard
It is. And I actually felt like I could see this coming a little bit. Like there was. There was something kind of rumbling in the. You know, when you can just like feel like something shifting in the world. Yes, I felt like that about cinema. I was like, we're about to have a little revolution. I think that like in the 90s, obviously you had like the rise of, of Tarantino and Paul Thomas Anderson and all these, like, independent filmmakers coming through. I think that now we're about to enter and I think that Hollywood is going to learn the wrong lesson, first of all. But I think we're gonna have this rise of, like, people who have come from YouTube into. Into sort of more traditional filmmaking. But when I say that Hollywood has learned the wrong lesson, I think they're at the moment the, the people at the top are shouting, who's the next curry barker?
- [20:25]
Mark Kermode
Okay. Yeah. Which is absolutely the wrong lesson.
- [20:26]
Jack Howard
What a bizarre. Like, I need another sketch comedian who's gonna make us a horror movie that's gonna make us $200 million. If you want that, call me. But. But what I'm saying is I think that's a really. It's like, it's like when Joker made a billion dollars and they were probably like, oh, we need to make R rated movies that are based on comic book characters. So. Yeah, I just think that at the moment that's going to be the.
- [20:48]
Mark Kermode
There's a. There. There's an interesting thing happening which is that if. If you want to look at the. The thing that joins these movies, that joins obsession and joins backrooms and joins all those things, the thing that joins them is that they've got ideas that they are ideas led. And this is again brings me to my hatred for the term elevated horror and people now referring to elevated comedy as if there was ever such a thing as unelevated horror. The reason that those movies are interesting and that they're. A lot of them cost very, very little money, but they end up taking a lot money because they've got a really, really good idea. Have you seen the David Cronenberg film Videodrome?
- [21:26]
Jack Howard
Not for a long time. It's one of those movies I would have watched as a teenager.
- [21:29]
Mark Kermode
Yeah, I need to revisit on illegal video.
- [21:32]
Jack Howard
Yeah, sure.
- [21:32]
Mark Kermode
There's a line in Videodrome in which one of the characters says, it has a philosophy. That's what makes it dangerous. And I love that line because that is like David Cronenberg explaining what makes a good horror film. It has a philosophy. That's what makes it dangerous. And if you look at backrooms, it has an idea, a very good idea. An idea that. That is not just about the idea but is about a lot of other things. We had a load of mail to the PO podcast about. I think it's about the rise of the Internet. I think it's about the rise of isolation. I think it's about all these things in the case of Obsession, I think
- [22:05]
Jack Howard
for me it is around it are crazy. It's so cool.
- [22:08]
Mark Kermode
All I know is I think it's a film about. About spousal abuse. I think it's about, you know, it's coercion and I think it's.
- [22:16]
Jack Howard
I think men wanting to control women. Exactly.
- [22:18]
Mark Kermode
Precisely that. It is the, the casting, the spell is the equivalent of slipping somebody a roofie because. Because the person is drugged.
- [22:25]
Jack Howard
It was also. I saw. I apologize. I will not be able to remember where I heard this. It might have just been a tick tock. I watched where somebody said that. It's very interesting that the scariest thing to a Gen Z man is to have a girlfriend who's a bit cringe that when they're out and she. And. And he wants to like talk to her but she starts making a scene or like he's asking can I go and hang out with the. With the boys without you? And she kind of freaks out. Is the idea of like having a girlfriend who wants you too much, that. That scares them.
- [22:56]
Mark Kermode
The scene in that film that scared me the most is the scene in which she's asleep and the voice of the not asleep other says that noise.
- [23:04]
Jack Howard
I just did. I literally did it.
- [23:05]
Mark Kermode
Yeah. And so did I. And I did it in a way. Which is.
- [23:09]
Jack Howard
Yeah. That is like.
- [23:10]
Mark Kermode
Because that suddenly that whole idea of she's in. She's trapped in there.
- [23:15]
Jack Howard
And you obviously get that physically throughout
- [23:17]
Mark Kermode
the film, you know. Yeah, exactly. But that when you. And it's almost like the first time you've heard her voice since he snapped the twig. Because. Because everything since then has been this kind of weird performance. And I think it's. It is such a creepy scene and it. Because it's. It's the real horror of what's going on is. Yes. You've basically imprisoned somebody.
- [23:39]
Jack Howard
And then him ignoring that. Yeah.
- [23:41]
Mark Kermode
And knowing that he's ignoring it. That's the worst thing it's like, not just doing it and not just having the credit, but knowing that he's done it.
- [23:46]
Jack Howard
And then the other. My other favorite scene. You're right, that is the moment, I think. But the other one is the bit when she's in the shadows at the foot of the bed. And what I. When I was watching it, I remembered, like, leaning in and, like, squinting because I was like, is her face morphing? What's happening? Yeah, it's really strange. Uncanny valley thing that was going on. And now obviously, I mean, I don't know if you've seen this, but they've revealed, like, all the makeup that they did.
- [24:09]
Mark Kermode
No, I haven't. I haven't seen any behind the scenes.
- [24:11]
Jack Howard
Yeah, so the behind the scenes photos of, like, this very, very harsh makeup they were doing, but obviously in the shadows.
- [24:15]
Mark Kermode
Okay.
- [24:16]
Jack Howard
Reads as, like, this very strange looking face, this uncanny valley face. But when I was watching it, I was like, is my brain doing that? Like, it was this delicate line that they managed to tread where I didn't know if it was a visual effect or if my brain was doing it or what it was. But that moment, I thought was astounding.
- [24:32]
Mark Kermode
The thing it reminded me of was Ringu, of the strange sort of, you know, backward movement of Sadako in Ringu. But again, it's like, I love the idea that it's a. It's. It is a practical, physical solution. I love the idea that they've done it through makeup and through understanding how lighting works, because, again, this is. This is old school filmmaking.
- [24:50]
Jack Howard
And even, like, the way her eyes light up, like, when she's got very particular highlights in one of the theories that people. That people have is. And I like this one.
- [24:58]
Mark Kermode
Although this is what obsession is about.
- [25:00]
Jack Howard
No, this is more like, what do we think has happened to her?
- [25:03]
Mark Kermode
Okay.
- [25:04]
Jack Howard
What has. What has taken over her? Like, what's what. When. When he's made that wish, people are, like, thinking, like, what?
- [25:09]
Mark Kermode
What?
- [25:09]
Jack Howard
But what is it? Like, who's he speaking to? What is this entity that's taken over her?
- [25:13]
Mark Kermode
Okay.
- [25:14]
Jack Howard
And some people think that it's the dead cat. Really? Isn't that an interesting idea? I want. I want her to love me more than anyone in the world, and she becomes the. Because obviously the cat will have loved him. Like, do you know what I mean? It's very interesting. And, like, obviously, cat's eyes glow like that. I don't know how intentional that is or not or whatever and whatever, but I think it's an interesting thing to think about.
- [25:39]
Mark Kermode
I saw it absolutely as a possession narrative. And, you know, because possession narratives are, you know, strike a particular chord with me.
- [25:46]
Jack Howard
How come?
- [25:48]
Mark Kermode
Well, weirdly enough, there is. There. There's a scene. There is a scene in the novel. How long are we in? I don't know, 20 minutes. In the novel of the Exorcist, he said, for the first time in this particular thing, there is gonna have to
- [26:01]
Jack Howard
get, like, a penny. Yeah.
- [26:04]
Mark Kermode
Okay. There is a scene in the novel in which Karras, when, you know, the possessed Reagan Pazuzu effectively is tied to the bed and is having this kind of very kind of highfalutin conversation with Karras. Cause the whole thing is, the demon is incredibly intelligent, speaks all these different languages. He just happens to be a demon. And Karras says, show me Regan. And the devil says, no, I don't want to. He says, show me Reagan. And then there's just a little paragraph which is. Suddenly, Regan's face appears in this silent scream. This silent scream. And it's really fleeting. And then it goes. And they don't do it in the film. That paragraph in the book is one of the scariest things. And when I saw that moment.
- [26:47]
Jack Howard
It's been adapted into obsession, hasn't it?
- [26:49]
Mark Kermode
Yeah, it really, really has. Even those moments in there.
- [26:52]
Jack Howard
Yeah. When she, like, leaps forward for a second, then comes back again. Like, all of that is. I mean, actually, what I would say is that her performance is amazing. Amazing, amazing. And it is. It is going to be remembered the way that Toni Collette's performance in Hereditary is remembered as. And I hope that the lesson that's been learned is that everybody obviously wishes that everybody who likes it wishes that Toni Collette had been nominated for an Oscar for that, because it is unbelievably impressive. And I wonder whether or not with the success that it's had and, you know, it kind of doing something for cinema that people didn't expect. I wonder if it will be the hat will be tipped in next year for the Oscars.
- [27:32]
Mark Kermode
Well, you know, I mean, if Weapons can pick up an Oscar nomination and a win. Yeah. Oh, yeah, of course. Can win, yes. Because I've actually forgotten that that happened.
- [27:39]
Jack Howard
Yeah.
- [27:39]
Mark Kermode
If Weapons can win an Oscar, then, you know, maybe we are in a slightly changed world. I feel really excited about this period. I feel really genuinely that good stuff is happening. I think you're quite right. It's not that it suddenly happened. It's been happening for a while. But it's interesting that when I hear
- [27:57]
Jack Howard
about it, it beat Star wars at the box office.
- [27:59]
Mark Kermode
That's the chance it beat the Mandalorian and Grogu, which the question of how how Star Wars, Mandalorian and Grogu, which I always refer to as Michael Benteen's potty time in space actually is because I mean the weird thing about I saw Mandalorian and Grogu in imax and
- [28:14]
Jack Howard
like everyone else, I didn't.
- [28:19]
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- [28:59]
Mark Kermode
Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [29:07]
Brooke Devard
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- [29:53]
Jack Howard
Do you just.
- [29:54]
Mark Kermode
Have you seen it?
- [29:55]
Jack Howard
No.
- [29:55]
Mark Kermode
Oh, you haven't seen it at all.
- [29:56]
Jack Howard
Like everybody else, you have to see it for a job. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't see.
- [30:00]
Mark Kermode
I think it's remarkable that we're at the point that they're is a Star wars movie that you don't care about.
- [30:05]
Jack Howard
I know.
- [30:05]
Mark Kermode
Yeah.
- [30:06]
Jack Howard
Isn't that crazy?
- [30:07]
Mark Kermode
It really is.
- [30:08]
Jack Howard
Yeah. Because they've. I'm not going to swear, but they've. They've. I'm going to swear they fucked it. They fucked it like so. Yeah. I'm not surprised that everyone's like, I'm bored. And it's the first Star wars movie in seven years to be released in cinemas.
- [30:24]
Mark Kermode
Is it?
- [30:25]
Jack Howard
Yep.
- [30:25]
Mark Kermode
What was the last one?
- [30:26]
Jack Howard
The ninth movie, the Travesty. That was the last. The Rise of Sky.
- [30:30]
Mark Kermode
Rise of Skywalker.
- [30:31]
Jack Howard
The Last Jedi is the one that we like. The Rise of Skywalker, they will tell us is bad.
- [30:36]
Mark Kermode
The Rise of Skywalker is the one when it says. Yeah, you know that thing about. She's Ray from nowhere. No, she is.
- [30:40]
Jack Howard
She's actually Palpatine.
- [30:42]
Mark Kermode
She's actually Raven Palpatine.
- [30:44]
Jack Howard
Yes, but. But that's the significant thing, isn't it? Is that like these two movies that are made for very little money, one of them in particular made for under a million dollars, which is astonishing.
- [30:57]
Mark Kermode
I mean, nothing gets made for under a million dollars that gets released in
- [31:01]
Jack Howard
the cinema and is now one of the most successful films films ever made. Do you know what is another factor, if you know this as well about obsession? It made more money at second weekend.
- [31:09]
Mark Kermode
Yes. Now that I did know. And the reason I know that is because I have had cinema managers tell me it. That never happens.
- [31:17]
Jack Howard
Never. I don't think it's happened since the 80s.
- [31:19]
Mark Kermode
And that is word of mouth, isn't it? That is literally word of mouth. It's not reviews because they all happen in the first week. That is it opening and people going to work or school or anything the next day and go. You have to saw this film. You have to go and see it.
- [31:31]
Jack Howard
Yeah.
- [31:31]
Mark Kermode
And it's like the. It's like the Top of the Pops Friday morning effect. It's the next. What are you talking about? In the playground?
- [31:37]
Jack Howard
Yeah.
- [31:39]
Mark Kermode
Well, you now call it the water cooler effect, but when I was a kid, we didn't have water coolers, we had taps. It was a different thing. You know, we turned a tap on and water came out.
- [31:49]
Jack Howard
Congregate around the tap.
- [31:52]
Mark Kermode
Back in the old days, on our feet, we'd be wearing sacks of coal and we say, did you see Paper Lace on Top of the Pops? What do you think of their new.
- [32:03]
Jack Howard
Would you like a glass of tap water?
- [32:04]
Mark Kermode
Tap water. Literally how it went.
- [32:08]
Jack Howard
Before we wrap this up, I would like to talk a little bit more about the filmmaking and stuff in back rooms.
- [32:14]
Mark Kermode
Yeah, go ahead.
- [32:15]
Jack Howard
I feel like I could have spent another half an hour wandering around those back rooms.
- [32:18]
Mark Kermode
Oh, I think you're going to spend another half an hour wandering around those backrooms because they're meant to be nine episodes coming.
- [32:24]
Jack Howard
Oh, I hope so. So I thought it was fab and
- [32:26]
Mark Kermode
I was told it was a limited series of nine episodes. To which you think that's not very limited.
- [32:32]
Jack Howard
Yeah, but. Yeah, but I. I'm assuming because of the success of it. I mean, it's. It's going mainstream now. It's become its own ip, really. And it's. It's no longer this niche Internet thing. No.
- [32:42]
Mark Kermode
There'll be a joke about it in scary movie 7.
- [32:46]
Jack Howard
I'm glad that's not going well. I'm glad that that's not making any.
- [32:49]
Mark Kermode
Yeah, well, it's rubbish.
- [32:49]
Jack Howard
Yeah.
- [32:50]
Mark Kermode
I think it's the best of the scary movies and it's still rubbish. No, no, it's not. It's like saying, he's shutting your door, you know, less pleasurable than stubbing your toe on it. On it. You know, it's like. Yeah, it's just. It's all bad. But, you know, which one hurts worse?
- [33:02]
Jack Howard
Yeah, which one do you choose? But, yeah, with Back Rooms, what I was mostly impressed by, I think it is, like the script of it is like sometimes a little bit on the nose, but that's fine with me sometimes. But I really like that it's this manifestation of grief and dread and regret. And I, you know, when I first, it was like in the opening moments, obviously, you get this point of view, like, very classic of the. Of the web series, point of view camera going around the. The back rooms. And then obviously, I've never been.
- [33:29]
Mark Kermode
I've never been this far before.
- [33:31]
Jack Howard
Yes. And then the big scare that happens. Obviously, there's a seagull in there. All the rest, very fun. And then the next thing that happens is this very dreamy sequence of shots where a child is there putting her hand in cement, which obviously is like setting up how it feels to go through the door later. And then you've got the construction crane over the top of them, about to drop some. And then it cuts to her watching that and it's her family house getting destroyed. I was like, kane Parson knows ball.
- [33:56]
Mark Kermode
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [33:56]
Jack Howard
He. This is, this is good filmmaking.
- [33:59]
Mark Kermode
And you're literally laying out the whole map of the thing.
- [34:02]
Jack Howard
Yeah.
- [34:03]
Mark Kermode
And then. And now we'll go and do it.
- [34:04]
Jack Howard
Yeah. And I, I was just like, yeah, Those sequence of shots, I'm like, this is more impressive than most. Like, we're going to talk about next week, we're going to talk about Spielberg's new film, Disclosure. Yes.
- [34:15]
Mark Kermode
Disclosure Day.
- [34:18]
Jack Howard
And it's. It's something I want to talk about in that is. Is How I feel that there's a certain kind of filmmaking that's been lost recently, especially in bigger budget movies, which is. Well, we'll get to it next week. I'm teasing it.
- [34:32]
Mark Kermode
All right.
- [34:32]
Jack Howard
But there was something in back rooms where I was like, yeah, this is. This is somebody. You know. If I was going to have a critique of Obsession, it would be that sometimes. And you can. You can forgive this. It does kind of devolve into. You stand there, you stand there, shot, reverse shot sometimes. And that is just. That's just me being hypercritical.
- [34:49]
Mark Kermode
Okay.
- [34:50]
Jack Howard
But with backrooms, which obviously cost 10 times more than Obsession, there's a little bit more.
- [34:55]
Mark Kermode
Probably had a bigger sort of, you know, crew and stuff, but, yeah, it
- [34:57]
Jack Howard
was $10 million to make back rooms versus the 700,000.
- [34:59]
Mark Kermode
I mean, look, I confess, there was never a point in Obsession. Watching it from my point of view, in which I thought, you're letting me down with your shot construction. I just thought, I am riveted.
- [35:09]
Jack Howard
Yes. To be fair, I think I'm way more attuned.
- [35:12]
Mark Kermode
No, you are.
- [35:13]
Jack Howard
You're looking to look at that because you're a filmmaker. Yeah, because I'm. I'm wondering, like, what's this shot doing? What's. What's it for? In every moment. And sometimes an obsession, it felt a little bit like I was watching a sketch comedy thing.
- [35:23]
Mark Kermode
Okay.
- [35:23]
Jack Howard
But again, that's me being super, super critical because I think overall, this is what I put this on my letterboxd, that it's the feeling it left me with, and I was thinking about it. So even if all that filmmaking stuff that I like, when it's done well, makes me very excited, even when that's not hitting the bullseye. The heart of it, if you get the heart of it right, that's all the matters.
- [35:49]
Mark Kermode
Very good. All right, well, that's a very good point to end on. Tune in next week, we'll be talking about Spielberg and Disclosure Day. If you've enjoyed this video or this podcast, what do they need to do?
- [35:58]
Jack Howard
You need to like the video. You need to, you must. And you can subscribe to the channel. And if you would like more Mark
- [36:03]
Mark Kermode
Kermode Kermoda Mayors take wherever you get your podcasts every week. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. See or hear you next week. Bye.
- [36:21]
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- [37:02]
Mark Kermode
Hello, this is Simon Mayo. And this is Mark kermode.
- [37:05]
Jack Howard
He's the UK's best and most trusted film critic.
- [37:07]
Mark Kermode
He's a best selling writer, broadcaster and and national treasure.
- [37:11]
Jack Howard
Far too kind.
- [37:11]
Mark Kermode
Kermode. Mayo's take has all the reviews you need and star guests such as Sir Ian McKellen.
- [37:18]
Jack Howard
Nice to be with you. Emma Stone that sounds like something I
- [37:21]
Mark Kermode
would love to be a part of. Ewan McGregor I'm very good. How are you doing? Kate Planchette what was that word you used?
- [37:26]
Jack Howard
Cattywampus.
- [37:27]
Mark Kermode
Kermita Mayors Take all the film you need available wherever you get your podcasts.