"Cinematic foreplay"!?

Summary

Kermode on Film – "Cinematic Foreplay!?" (June 2, 2026)

Featuring: Mark Kermode (Host), Jack Howard (Co-host)

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Episode Overview

In this lively, insightful episode, Mark Kermode and Jack Howard continue their multi-part exploration of Christopher Nolan’s work, focusing on themes, filmmaking approaches, and anticipation for Nolan's upcoming epic, The Odyssey. The discussion ranges from emotional through-lines in Nolan’s films to technical innovation with IMAX, audience reactions to language and casting in The Odyssey, and the nature of fandom. Episodes like this are recorded live upstairs at the Sun Pub in London’s West End, mirroring their BFI Southbank live shows.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ongoing Obsession: Nolan’s Themes & The Odyssey

• Nolan’s Emotional Core

  • Mark expresses that his favorite Nolan films are the ones that have an emotional impact, particularly The Prestige and Interstellar.

    “My favorite Christopher Nolan films are films that hit me on an emotional level, particularly Prestige.” – Mark (00:53)

  • Jack notes that despite Nolan’s reputation for coldness, Interstellar was specifically a response to that critique, emphasizing family and feeling.

• Metafiction & Family

  • Jack observes that Nolan’s films are often about “making movies,” using Inception as an allegory for film crews and storytelling, but always centering on returning home or family (01:38).

    “At the heart of it really is Dom Cobb trying to get back to his true children. It's a man trying to come home...” – Jack (01:38)

  • Mark points to Nolan’s own filmmaking process as a “travelling troop,” working repeatedly with family, friends, and trusted collaborators.

2. The Odyssey: Spectacle, Technique, and Expectations

• Epic Scale vs. Emotional Focus

  • Mark is initially skeptical about Nolan taking on a big epic like The Odyssey, wishing for something “small scale, little widgety drama” (04:09). However, he recognizes Nolan’s tendency to ground spectacle in emotionally resonant themes, especially the motif of returning home.

• Dual Gears: Intimate vs. Epic

  • Jack and Mark identify two “gears” in Nolan’s work: the introspective (Oppenheimer, “courtroom drama” scenes, etc.) and the blockbuster epic (Inception, Tenet, The Dark Knight).

    “I think that Nolan has two gears. I think that he likes to make stuff that's more introspective, clever... [and] Inception, Dark Knight, Tenet gear...” – Jack (04:45, 05:48)

• Groundbreaking IMAX Filmmaking

  • Major excitement around The Odyssey being shot entirely on IMAX film, a technical innovation. Jack explains the practical difficulty: IMAX cameras being as loud as “a lawnmower” and the innovation in sound-dampening, while Mark provides historical context of sound recording in film (07:43–08:03).

    “Apparently it sounds like a lawnmower. That's apparently what it sounds like.” – Jack (08:22)

• Practical Effects and Harryhausen Influence

  • Nolan draws on Ray Harryhausen’s tactile stop-motion monsters for inspiration, partially relying on puppetry for the Cyclops, blending in-camera tricks and practical effects (10:46–12:09).

    “When I was growing up, the Sinbad movies, all those things, Ray Harryhausen was the guy.” – Mark (10:52)

3. Cultural Authenticity & Dialogue Delivery

• Modern Accents in Ancient Stories

  • Jack brings up the “internet outrage” at the use of modern American accents and informal language in The Odyssey, with phrases like “daddy” and “let’s go” (13:52).
  • Both argue, referencing historical films like The Devils and Death of Stalin, that stylized authenticity is less important than immediacy and relatability for modern audiences (14:18–17:25).

    “Don't do accents. Right. These people are speaking issues of Death of Stalin is the perfect example. They're all...got regional accents because...that's how they would all sound.” – Mark (19:25)

• Consistency in Casting and Tone

  • They discuss Nolan’s choice for consistent American accents across the cast (20:27–21:26), seeing it as an artistic choice rather than historical inaccuracy.

4. Casting Choices & Online Backlash

• Inclusive Casting in The Odyssey

  • Elliot Page plays the ghost of Achilles; Lupita Nyong’o is Helen of Troy. Jack lauds both choices, calling Nyong’o “maybe one of the most beautiful faces I've ever seen...and an amazing actress,” while lamenting the online backlash based on racism and transphobia (24:51, 26:44).

    “Any comment about the fact that she shouldn't be cast. This is why I almost don't know how much air we should give it because it's obviously just coming from these like horrible little gremlins who just say stuff on the Internet...” – Jack (27:29)

• Critiques of “Terminally Online” Discourse

  • Mark advises not to focus on internet toxicity, coining the phrase “terminally online” and advocating for detachment from online bile (28:06–28:36).

5. Cinematic Foreplay: Fandom, Anticipation & Loving Things

• Anticipatory Fandom as "Cinematic Foreplay"

  • Mark cheekily accuses Jack of indulging in “cinematic foreplay” by obsessively seeking out information and building anticipation before seeing the film (30:27).

    “You're indulging in cinematic foreplay in that...you are pre-arousing yourself before the actual arrival of the film.” – Mark (30:28)

• Online Fandom, Love vs. Hate

  • They discuss the shame sometimes associated with loving an artist (“glazing”) and Mark reflects that expressing love for a film or filmmaker gets more negative blowback than criticism or hate (32:12–33:07).

    “Hating anything will never get you into trouble. Loving something will always get you into trouble. There is nothing at stake in hating something. There is everything at stake in loving something...” – Mark (33:07)

• Encouraging Positive Expression

  • Mark advocates for reaching out to creators just to say “I loved this,” describing it as a simple act that has real impact (35:19–36:26).

    “Nobody ever didn't like finding. You're not asking for anything back in return... It's just. I just want you to know I really like this. Thank you very much.” – Mark (36:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:38 | Jack Howard | “At the heart of it really is Dom Cobb trying to get back to his true children.”| | 08:22 | Jack Howard | “Apparently [the IMAX camera] sounds like a lawnmower.” | | 10:52 | Mark Kermode | “Ray Harryhausen was the guy...once you’d seen Harryhausen’s monsters, everything else just wasn’t good enough.”| | 19:25 | Mark Kermode | “Don't do accents. Right. These people are speaking issues of Death of Stalin is the perfect example.”| | 30:28 | Mark Kermode | “You're indulging in cinematic foreplay in that...you are pre-arousing yourself before the actual arrival of the film.”| | 33:07 | Mark Kermode | “Hating anything will never get you into trouble. Loving something will always get you into trouble…”| | 36:15 | Mark Kermode | “If I see something and I really like it, the first thing I do is... send them a message just to say, I really like this.”|

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Segment Timestamps

• Christopher Nolan’s Emotional Themes & Family: 00:53–03:15
• Nolan’s Personal Working Style as Family: 02:24–03:15
• Anticipation & What We Know about The Odyssey: 03:15–04:45
• Epic vs. Intimate – Nolan’s Two Gears: 04:45–06:32
• IMAX Camera Innovations: 06:32–09:08
• Harryhausen, Puppetry, and Monster Effects: 10:46–12:09
• Language, Modernity, and Performative Authenticity: 13:52–22:09
• Casting Choices, Internet Backlash, and “Terminally Online” Critique: 24:51–28:36
• Anticipatory Fandom & Shame in Loving Things: 30:23–34:46
• Expression of Appreciation to Creators: 35:05–36:37

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Tone & Style

• The conversation is deeply knowledgeable but relaxed, mixing scholarly references (Ken Russell, Derek Jarman) with pop culture (Minions, Lord of the Rings jokes).
• Banter between Mark and Jack is playful, with Jack’s optimism and Mark’s measured, sometimes sardonic, wisdom.

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Takeaway for New Listeners

This episode is a rich discussion not just of Nolan’s films, but of why stories matter, how filmmakers’ intentions and methods shape our experience, and why loving art—passionately and publicly—is an act of courage. Whether you’re a Nolan fan or simply someone who cares about cinema and its culture, the analysis is engaging, thought-provoking, and, appropriately, a little bit like “cinematic foreplay” itself.

Transcript

[Aramco Narrator]

Seeking, pushing, optimizing, creating, learning, discovering. At Aramco, we believe in harnessing the power of data to push the limits of what's possible. That's how we deliver reliable energy to millions across the world. Aramco, an integrated energy and chemicals company. Learn more about [e-mail].

[Mark Kermode]

Hi, this is Mark Kermode. Thanks for learning this Kermode on Film podcast. Or indeed watching us on YouTube. We are here, upstairs at the Sun Pub in London's bustling West End. I'm joined once again by Jack Howard.

[Jack Howard]

Hello there. This is part two of our ongoing discussion about Christopher Nolan. We can't do it all in one or two, so there's gonna be many parts to this, but this is this part.

[Mark Kermode]

So picking up where we left off last time, that we were having a discussion about whether or not there are themes of Christopher Nolan's films that always managed to rise above the mechanics. And I was saying that, for me, my favorite Christopher Nolan films are films that hit me on an emotional level, particularly prestige. But I understand why it is that Interstellar has worked. You raised a very interesting point, that Interstellar is partly reaction to Chris Nolan reading reviews, people saying he was a cold filmmaker. And. And so Interstellar is a lot of things, but it's not cold. And neither of us have seen Odyssey yet, but we're both very excited about it. But the one thing that is clear is that Odyssey is a family drama. And your thesis is that really family is at the center of Chris Nolan's recurring themes.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, I think a lot of the time he's making movie like he's making movies about making movies in a lot of ways. Like Inception, very famously, is the heist team essentially all works as the way that a film crew works. That Cobb is the director and Joseph Gordon Levitt's character is a producer. And then you've got actors. You know, Tom Hardy's playing an actor who can impersonate people in dreams. They're all interchangeable for a film crew. And they're all trying to put on a show. They're trying to put on a show for Cillian Murphy's character so that he can change his mind and have an emotional experience. That's what making films is. But at the heart of it really is Dom Cobb trying to get back to his true children. It's a man trying to come home, which is also, I think, what Christopher Nolan probably feels like when he's making stuff and also goes off, makes something, but really wants to go home and see his children.

[Mark Kermode]

But also I think it's worth pointing out that the way he works, certainly in terms of his relationship with his partner, that it is a family. He does have that kind of traveling troop family thing, which is that he, he surrounds himself by the same people. He's worked with his brother, he's worked with his partner, he's worked with actors who he sort of seems to feel a particular connection with. I mean, in the case of the Odyssey, there is a connection right there with that. And Inception, just in the casting. The Elliot Page is, you know, is a. Is a direct link and he does seem to be somebody who has that kind of. Yes, I'm away from home, but I'm away from home with a traveling band of players who are also a form of family. Don't you think?

[Jack Howard]

Yes, 100%. Yeah. And is why FEMA Thomas is long standing producer on everything. So yes, it's interesting though that it's. But it always seems to be about getting home to children. That seems to be like a big thing.

[Mark Kermode]

All right, so in the case of the Odyssey, and again, what we know about the Odyssey is this. Firstly, you've seen the trailer. I haven't because I am deliberately avoiding it. You've also, you've got that kind of, you know, the slightly more obsessive looking up stuff that's coming out than I have. But what we know in terms of the story of the Odyssey is that it is a story of returning, in fact, just in the recent past.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, the Ralph Fiennes film, Ray Fine film.

[Mark Kermode]

Which is entirely about the return, about returning back to the place that you've been estranged from and whether or not anybody recognizes you, whether any. Anybody realizes who you are. So in the case of the themes of the Odyssey, do you think it's obvious Nolan material? Because I have a confession to make, which is that when I heard that Nolan was doing the Odyssey, my first reaction was.

[Jack Howard]

And why is that?

[Mark Kermode]

Because it's a huge, big epic project. And what I think I really wanted to hear is Chris Nolan is making a small scale little widgety drama. Not. He's making something with spectacle, he's making something with monsters, he's making something with sea voyages. He's making something with grand scale adventure. And then the more I've thought about it, the more I thought, yeah, but maybe as with all of Nolan's, it's not really about that. What it's actually about is that is the return home. That. That's the recurrent theme. What do you think?

[Jack Howard]

I think that Nolan has two gears. I think that he likes to make stuff that's more introspective, clever. Like, I think Oppenheimer, for example, is not without his emotion. I think the ending, like, blows me away. Like how with. With its darkness and like the. The tragedy of like, you know, the. I believe that the actions we've taken have ended the world, even if they haven't literally ended the world. And we talked about this a lot in the lead up to Oppenheimer is that it's interesting that his use of IMAX in this was courtroom drama, really. I mean, Oppenheimer skips around a lot of different genres and blends them all together beautifully. But a lot of the movie is a courtroom drama and it's close ups of people's faces, using the face as a canv, particularly Cillian Murphy.

[Mark Kermode]

And never was an Oscar more deserved because it is literally a huge amount of that film just plays out on his face, the size of a house. And if you've ever met Killian Murphy, he's quite small.

[Jack Howard]

Cameron needs to get very close. So, yeah, I think he has that gear. And then I also think he has Inception, Dark Knight, Tenet gear, which is. I like James Bond movies, I like big action scenes. He's. He's, you know, that kind of director. He likes those kinds of movies. And I think the Odyssey is going to be. I mean, I. When I. When Tenant was coming out, I expected Inception two is what I thought it was going to be. So I would always refer to Inception as a secret therapy movie where it's literally about like, he thinks he's going into someone else's mind, but really we're going into his, like that kind of thing. And I thought Tenet was gonna be like, it's about people going, it's about the backwards boys, but really it's about this. And it's not really about all their albums.

[Mark Kermode]

The early pop hits were great.

[Jack Howard]

But with the Odyssey, my expectation is that it's going to be a big spectacle and maybe it will also have. I mean, it's about a man coming back to his family after being away for, I think 17 years, long time. So I imagine it's going to be emotionally resonant. But I think that in this, my expectation is that Nolan is interested in the technical. What can I do? How can I push the boundary of what is possible to do nowadays in cinema? Harking back to some of the old techniques. Like we know, for example, that he's. He's using puppets for the physical Effects? Yeah, for the. For the Cyclops. He literally went out on the ocean and shot that. So that's going to be intense. But. But at the same time, this is a movie that's entirely shot on IMAX film, and that has never happened before. We've had sequences shot in imax. We've had movies that have been filmed for IMAX in quotation marks. That doesn't mean that it's shot on imax. This is the first time it's ever been possible because Nolan literally went, make me a camera that's quiet enough. I want all of it just so.

[Mark Kermode]

So people understand. So essentially, the issue is. And this has always been a thing. If you've ever seen pictures of people shooting on set, you'll see a camera and it appears to be sort of wrapped up in a. In a big cardigan or, like, at you, like. Why? Because they're trying to quieten it down. And ever since the inception of sound cinema has had to deal with.

[Jack Howard]

Nice phrase there. That was good.

[Mark Kermode]

Unintentional, but thank you. Ever since then, filmmakers have had to deal with the fact that cameras make a noise. Digital cameras don't, but film cameras do. And so the thing that you're seeing wrapped around the camera, the blimp, is the thing that is quieting it down. In the case of IMAX cameras, they have got a particular noise, right?

[Jack Howard]

They are very, very, very loud because it's big. Apparently it sounds like a lawnmower. That's apparently what it sounds like.

[Mark Kermode]

So what he's had to do is to say, find me a way of having this visual format without it screwing up the sound.

[Jack Howard]

Exactly.

[Mark Kermode]

And.

[Jack Howard]

And apparently they've done it like they've. And what they've done is they've just put it in a case that's. That's probably reductive as to what they've actually done technically, but it looks like they've just put it in a case that's dampen the sound enough that they can use it and record all the dialogue. Because also, Nolan, quite famously, you know, we hear all the time, he doesn't use cgi. He doesn't like cgi. He does. He uses CGI all the time. He just prefers to shoot things practically. He also likes to use practical sound and doesn't like to replace it. And if he does, he cringes at the idea of replacing sound.

[Mark Kermode]

One thing I would really love, somebody got a picture of Chris Nolan on set with, you know, the IMAX 70 camera. She's got lots of egg boxes Strapped to it.

[Jack Howard]

There you go. Fixed it.

[Mark Kermode]

It'll be all right. Off you go. Don't worry.

[Aramco Narrator]

Matt will.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Fix it in post anyway. Okay.

[Jack Howard]

So I think it's going to be a spectacle of a movie. And I think that's what's most important to him on this.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm now going to ask you something which is kind of. It's a little bit beating myself in the face. Right. So I have deliberately avoided the trailer for this reason. In the trailer, are there monsters?

[Jack Howard]

We are hinting.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, fine.

[Jack Howard]

This is what's interesting is that I was like, nolan's not going to do. He's not gonna do magic and stuff. Is it? He's not gonna do, like God in the story. Yeah, I know, but I was like. Because the way he's spoken about it is that. And he continues to do this when he. When he speaks about the film. That when people believed that gods were everywhere, they would see it in the wind and in thunder and that would be the gods doing that. So I was like, okay, maybe he's gonna be like, oh, it feels like these are the gods, but we know them as the elements or whatever. But know there's a Cyclops featured in. In it. And then I. Forgive me, I cannot remember the names of these. These. What they're called in the story. But there's a moment where you have to sail the boat between what is essentially a big sinkhole in the sea and essentially a hydra monster. And we see the big sinkhole in the sea and we see a moment when somebody has pulled through the sails of a ship by what looks like Snake Head, but you don't really see much of it at all.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

I'm imagining he's going there.

[Mark Kermode]

So is there any element of this that is a bit Harryhausen?

[Jack Howard]

I mean, it doesn't look. It. It looks. I mean, he's mentioned him as an inspiration.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, of course, because in terms of, you know, that stuff, I mean, when. When I was growing up, the Sinbad movies, all those things, Ray Harryhausen was the guy. Because Ray Harryhausen did stop motion animation of monsters. And, you know, once you'd seen Harryhausen's monsters, everything else just wasn't good enough. Because it's proper physical stop motion animation. And it ages brilliantly because you're not. That's the thing. CG doesn't age particularly well, but stop motion physical does. And we talked about this when we were talking about Guillermo del Toro. What is it about puppets? It's the physicality. It's the fact that you can see the thumbprint and even the slightly, slightly staccato motion of stop motion just makes it feel more real. It's weird. It's.

[Jack Howard]

It is the charming. It's. There's something charming about watching it.

[Mark Kermode]

It's charming. In the case of the Harryhausen's, it's also terrifying. I mean, you know, there are, there are Harryhausen monsters that will literally put the fear of God in you. And when you're a kid going to see those movies was absolutely astonishing because you knew there was going to be romping adventure but you also knew there was going to be scary stuff in there. Proper, you know, scary monster stuff. And so, but is. So if Nolan's mentioned that in his. How has he talked about Harry House?

[Jack Howard]

He just said that he was like I want to make movies that were like the ones that he saw when he was a kid and, and do that on a big budget scale. So I'm imagining that he's thrown every visual effects trick in the book at the film. So there will be an immense amount of CGI obviously. But I think, I know that the cyclops has been done with puppetry but also it's coming down with the scale of. I think there's an actor who's playing the cyclops. So there's going to be. When he's holding a soldier there'll obviously be scale different stuff happening there as well as some trickery in camera. So at the moment the, the trailer to me visually looks incredible.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

Like. And I have no problem with this, but what I'm gonna bring up with you is that the Internet has, has a big problem with how the dialogue is being delivered. Okay, so tell me everybody has an American accent, okay. And nobody is doing that kind of old fashioned thou. Where the, you know, no one's doing Shakespearean or old fashiony English theatrical la which when people are watching these kinds of sword and sandals movies, we've come to expect that people speak a bit more theatrically. That's kind of the expectation. At least that's. That seems to be the reaction that I'm seeing at the moment. But for example, at one point Robert Pattinson says to Tom Holland, who plays Matt Damon's son, that he's pining for a daddy who he didn't even know. So the use of the word were daddy. And Tom Holland then says my d. Coming home. The word. Use of the word dad. There's a bit where Matt Damon is taking people into war and he goes let's go. And it's All a bit casual, updated, American. Very of the now.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

My personal feel, I'd love to hear how you feel about this, but my personal feeling on this is everyone's been a bit sensitive and a bit weird about the fact that you. You what? It's set in obviously, ancient Greek. There's no Greek people in it. Did you want them speaking ancient Greek? Like, would you prefer it if you said father? Even though they also wouldn't have said that. Like, I think it's interesting that he's making a movie that's very much modern and set now, but is a, you know, tale as old as time. It's a 3,000 year old story.

[Mark Kermode]

Well done for not breaking into song. Well, you nearly did. All right, so. So having not seen the trailer and heard the Internet discussion, never go below the line. I would say this at the time that we're talking because we're pre recording this podcast. I'm about to jump on a plane to Cannes where they are screening the director's cut of Ken Russell's the Devils, which is a film that I've been trying to get released in its director's cut since 2004, when me and Paul Joyce and Mike Bradsell and Ken Russell reconstructed the film as he intended it with the sequences that were then suppressed by sensors and studio alike. So, anyway, I'm off to Cannes to go and do that. That is a story set in historical France, 17th century France, and it is designed by Derek Jarman. And the sets of Loudon in France look like Fritz Lang's metropolis. Beaming, gleaming white walls, incredible angular design. And Russell said, when you lived in Loudon in that period, it didn't feel like an ancient city. It wasn't Mossy Stones. It felt like an incredibly modern city. And I want to make a movie that makes people feel like the people who would have been living there felt perfectly hot when they were doing the costume designs and when they were doing everything about it. It is all to make it feel modern. There is a joke in the film during a very kind of callous torture sacrifice scene in which one of the characters says, bye bye Birdie, and it's a joke. And one of the critics of the film said, well, how could he possibly say Bye bye Birdie? That song wasn't written for several hundred years. To which the answer is, stop being a critic.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

And go and get another job. There's another.

[Jack Howard]

There's another one in Lord of the Rings when the. I think it's the orcs say meats back on the menu. Boys and people are like, like they know what menus are and it's like chill out, chill out.

[Mark Kermode]

The very definition of straight to the heart of the periphery. So firstly, I have no problem with the modernity idea because that is an idea. It's not tale as old as time, but it's at least a tale as old as Ken Russell. Because, you know, the whole, I mean, look at Listermania. The whole thing about Russell's, Russell's filming was it needs to feel as it would have felt to the people in the drama. That is not to do with Rigs as he comes from a tradition that is pal and Press Press Burger. In the same vein as, you know, Nick Rogue and I think arguably now people like, you know, Ben Wheatley or Danny Boyle, they're not interested in, you know, if you've loved train spotting, which was back in cinemas recently, you know, when they're shooting in the sets that are too big, it's not because the flats are that big, it's because it looks more impressive when they're too big. That's how it works. You know the bit when Renton goes down the toilet and suddenly it turns into a lake. And the Excalibur moment. Yeah. It's not because it actually happened, it's because that's how it feels felt for a heroin addict who's lost his suppository down a diarrhea infested toilet. When he grabs it, it feels like he is, you know, the kid pulling the sword out of the stone. So I have no problem with that. As far as the accents thing is concerned. This is a real bugbear for me.

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[Mark Kermode]

I think that when you're doing a film in a non English tongue or any film in which it's not in the. The tongue of the. Of, you know, of the origin. But don't do accents.

[Jack Howard]

I agree.

[Mark Kermode]

Don't do accents. Right. These people are speaking issues of Death of Stalin is the perfect example.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, they're all, they've all got regional

[Mark Kermode]

accents because in the, in the original, that's how they would all sound. They wouldn't sound like people being a little bit Russian. And it really bugs me when what people do is a little bit of the thing. So either do it in the original language. I mean, you can say what you like about Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ. He did it in Aramaic and Hebrew. He literally made a blockbuster movie in a language that no one watching the movie spoke. And so everyone was reading subtitles. I mean, that's how it worked. Or do it in, let's say for the sake of this. That's English language cinema. Do it in English and don't have people being a little bit.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

A little bit ancient.

[Jack Howard]

I like, I like the the death of Stalin comparison because they were like, who cares? Any accent will do. But I think what Nolan has done is gone consistency. I'm making this for an American audience mainly. So he's got Robert Pattinson English doing an American accent.

[Mark Kermode]

You had an interesting thing about Patton when we were talking about the drama. You said you think Pattinson likes doing an accent. There's Something about getting into character for him.

[Jack Howard]

I think he works.

[Mark Kermode]

Right.

[Jack Howard]

But Tom Holland, English also doing an American accent. Charlize Thron, who is South African, I believe. Yeah, American. Like he's across the board, got this consistency happening. That's fine. And I think that's really good. I think it makes it feel less like it doesn't to me. It doesn't take me out of it. Like I'm like, everyone's from the same place then like. And I like what you just said there. I think it's the perfect way of putting it is this is how it would have felt to them at the time. It would have felt like how it feels to us. Like this all feels modern and new. It, it doesn't. It would be more performative if they were trying to make it feel like it was set a long time ago.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, it's really weird. And there is no, is no way of doing that performative stuff more than thou hast hissed and host. And you go, what?

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, what?

[Mark Kermode]

You know, what are you talking about? And I, like I said, I, I, I feel it very strongly. I, I was a good friend of. Well, no, Ken was. I knew Ken very well and I was very proud to call Ken a friend. And Ken would, you know, this was like one of the hills he would have died on. It's to do with what it felt like for them at the time. Stop focusing on the wrong thing. And I always loved that about Ken was he just wasn't having it, you know. And if anyone who's anyone who's seen the devils and says Ludon doesn't look like that needs to go back to school.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

It's just like. No, that's the point. It looked like that to them because to them they were living in the future. That future may now be the past, but you're not in that past.

[Jack Howard]

So.

[Mark Kermode]

Felt contemporary. Okay, fine.

[Jack Howard]

Here's an interesting thing as well. I don't know if you know this, this feels quite like a new thing that I've learned in the last few months about Christopher Nolan. Did you know that he was supposed to be directing Troy?

[Mark Kermode]

No.

[Jack Howard]

So apparently what happened?

[Mark Kermode]

It's a bullet dodged.

[Jack Howard]

I know, but isn't it interesting that he was supposed to do Troy now and now he's doing the Odyssey? Right. So because it's the Iliad, isn't it, Troy?

[Mark Kermode]

So it's not very good.

[Jack Howard]

Of course. So when he made Insomnia, that was obviously him building up credibility with the, with the studio to try and make bigger and Bigger films. At the time, the director of Troy, Wolfgang Peterson, Right. He was developing a Batman vs Superman movie and Christopher Nolan was doing Troy. Well, he, Wolfgang Peterson was originally doing Troy and then jumped off of it to do Batman and Superman. Then Batman and Superman fell apart and then he went, I want Troy back. And so he did Troy and got Christopher Nolan kicked off of it. And then Christopher Nolan was then off. Would you like Batman? Do you have a take on Batman? Apparently that's how it happens.

[Mark Kermode]

I had never heard that before.

[Jack Howard]

Isn't that interesting? Now all these years later, 20 years later, he's come back and gone. I kind of fancy a sword and sandals one.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. Well, it's fascinating not least because Troy is not very good playing in the sky. It's just, it's just, it's just. I mean, it's one of those weird things when. I mean, Wolfgang Peterson is a good director. He's done some really, really good work, but it's just not a very good film. It's just something that feels like. Well, for want of a better word, feels old fashioned. Not in a good way.

[Jack Howard]

Well, isn't you got Brad Pitt doing that kind of gladiator kind of speak.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jack Howard]

I think that, I think is way more distracting than it prompted the great gag.

[Mark Kermode]

I can't remember who was it said, you know, what's the coincidence? He's called Achilles. He gets killed near Achilles heel. What are the chances?

[Jack Howard]

So in this, apparently in the Odyssey, Elliot Page is playing the ghost of Achilles.

[Mark Kermode]

Right, okay. That I didn't know. I just knew that Elliot Page was in it. And in our previous installment, I was saying that's a, you know, genetic link back to Inception.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. And Nolan casting all the same people all the time.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. And the fact that he's got. He's like working with a family.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. And I don't know how much we're going to want to talk about this, but it's something. Again, it's in the conversation at the moment. But the casting of Elliot Page as Achilles or the ghost of Achilles in the story of the Odyssey and Lupita Nyong' O is Helen of Troy.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

I perfect casting both of them, I think.

[Mark Kermode]

Great.

[Jack Howard]

Can't wait, can't see why actors. Yeah, can't wait to see why. I think that obviously it's the Internet and it's getting worse. Is talking about how that's.

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[Jack Howard]

I mean, it's based on racism. It's based on. Sorry, transphobia.

[Mark Kermode]

I don't know it because I haven't read it. So what are people saying?

[Jack Howard]

People saying that, like, that's miscast. It's like poor casting. People are looking at, like, for example, who was cast as hell as Helen of Troy in Troy.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

And who's now. Now. Lupisa Nyong'.

[Mark Kermode]

O. Remember who was cast as Helen? Neither do I. I can't remember anything about that.

[Jack Howard]

And it's also the first time anyone's brought up Troy in 20 years. Like, although. Oh, you love Troy all of a sudden, do you? Because you want a racist comment and say that you don't think that Peter Nyong's beautiful enough to play Helen of Troy.

[Mark Kermode]

So is that literally.

[Jack Howard]

Literally what's happening?

[Mark Kermode]

People. People are doing the. It was better in Troy. Yeah. Wow.

[Jack Howard]

The people saying it's a downgrade. I'm like, bro, like, you think that Troy. You're defending Troy? No, no.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

I'm not. I. I mean, I can barely stand the conversation about the. The re. Evaluation of the. The Star wars prequels. I'm not having that Troy is actually good. It isn't. It's not good. And I think that Lupita Ongo, firstly, beautiful woman, maybe one of the most beautiful faces I've ever seen in my entire life. And an amazing actress. So, like, that's why she's been cast. And any comment about the fact that she shouldn't be cast. This is why I almost don't know how much air we should give it because it's obviously just coming from these like horrible little gremlins who just say stuff on the Internet and it's all America's fault.

[Mark Kermode]

May I suggest something. Yes? May I suggest something to you? Do you know the phrase terminally online?

[Jack Howard]

Oh, I am very, very aware of that phrase.

[Mark Kermode]

There comes a point and I mean, I think it may be a kind of. There comes a point when you just, you have to just move away from that stuff. And, and I think when you're getting to, to the point that you're getting to now about that sort of, that set, I, you know, I feel a great levity that I'm only hearing this for the first time.

[Jack Howard]

I know, yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

And, and the thing is, as soon as we finish having this conversation, I will forget it.

[Jack Howard]

It's also lovely that it, it's a, it's a evidence that it doesn't impact the world as much as you think it does.

[Mark Kermode]

It's not really.

[Jack Howard]

It's just because everything at the moment is kind of got this like, you know, skin of like hate wrapped around it that everything can be looked at through that kind of lens.

[Mark Kermode]

I did a, I did an on stage just recently on MK3D with Samira Ahmed, who's written a really good book about Hard Day's Night and fantastic interviews. Well, she's like a seasoned broadcaster. You know, we can all learn from her. And I was asking her about reviews and she said, yeah, it's weird on, you know, like Amazon, it's like, you know, you get, get, you know, these people write it and then suddenly one anonymous one star review. It's not even a review. I get, yeah, welcome to Amazon. That's how it works. It's like you got stuff and then there's always. And my favorite like one star reviews is there's one one star review for surround sound. Literally says was just a film critic talking about film music. One star and you go, it's literally. That is literally what it is.

[Jack Howard]

That's the most basic way I could describe what it is.

[Mark Kermode]

You know, it's just like, you know, I bought. It's just some musicians playing some music. I mean, it doesn't even say talking about it badly. That's all it is. Okay, so firstly, you need to move away from that stuff. However, I think there is an interesting sub thread to all of that, which is you're. The way in which you relate to Nolan is. Your level of excitement is such that you need. You need to know, you need to. You're kind of. You're sort of. And I think what you're doing is. It's. This sounds. This sounds ruder than it should be, but I think what you're doing is foreplay. I think. I think in a strange way that even in kind of, even in getting these things, you're sort of pre arousing yourself. I don't mean that's bad because I think that's a perfectly.

[Jack Howard]

You know.

[Mark Kermode]

But don't you think there's a little element of that.

[Jack Howard]

Hang on. With indulging in what?

[Mark Kermode]

Sorry, you're indulging in cinematic foreplay in that what you're doing is. You are pre arousing yourself before the actual arrival of the film. And so it's like, you know, it's. It's. There is something going on. There is a. There is an itch that you are

[Jack Howard]

scratching, which is a phrase I've used several times.

[Mark Kermode]

You've used several times?

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, he scratches my brain. But like, you've just reminded me once that when. When Tenet had come out and I kept talking about it and people were being very lovely about it as well. Like, people were kind of indulging me at the time. And at one point I got just a message on Instagram. I wish I could remember who sent it because it was very funny. Just said, jackie doesn't want to fucking you. No, he doesn't want to. Like.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so. So there we go. Okay, so you see, you understand, I. And I think that there is a. There is a thing going on there which is to do with. And I use this in a. In a entirely positive way. There is a thing about fandom. Fandom gets an awful lot of bad press because an awful lot of fandom now manifests itself online in. And because the online environment is so filled with bile and hatred and an unpleasantness. And I do think that in the particular age we're in, also falsity stuff that simply is untrue. And what it's done is, it is slightly taken away from the fact that fandom in itself is a good and positive thing. It is to do with loving and being enthusiastic about something.

[Jack Howard]

And also, there will be. There will be comments underneath this video.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, yeah.

[Jack Howard]

Saying that I'm glazing Christopher Nolan. You ever Heard that phrase before. Glazing. Think of it like a donut. Like, I'm. I'm. Basically, I'm. I'm loving it too much. Which is also sexual.

[Mark Kermode]

It's also called glazing.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. Because I. I love Christian Olan's work. I have since I was a kid. And. And sometimes I almost feel apologetic about it, which we've discussed before being like, oh, yeah, I really like Christopher, but I'm trying not to because I love his work. And that's basically people being like, don't love that thing that much. That's weird how much you love the. That thing.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, but this. But this ties it. This ties into. I know we're coming to the end of this particular podcast, and obviously this discussion about Chris Nolan is going to go on further because. But this ties into something that I said in a book that I wrote some time ago called Hatchet Job, which is about film criticism. And what I said was, hating anything will never get you into trouble. Loving something will always get you into trouble. There is nothing at stake in hating something. There is everything at stake in loving something. I. If I have learned one lesson from the many, many decades I've had in film criticism, the stuff that I get stick for is the stuff I like, not the stuff I don't like.

[Jack Howard]

Twilight and the Minions.

[Mark Kermode]

Twilight and the Minions. And you know, he's going on about Silent Running again. Oh, he's going about Jeremy again. Oh, he's going about Dougling the Blue Cat again. Oh, he's going on about the Exorcist again. Yeah, sorry, I do. Why? Because I love them. And it will. It will never stop. And I will never, never stop finding but them funny. And, and, and of all of the things that has given me bizarre pleasure, the fact that people get so annoyed about how much I like the Minions is just the weirdest thing. And I know you've said, well, it's because it's the most dad thing you could possibly do. What can I do? I mean, you know, that's funny.

[Jack Howard]

Kevin.

[Mark Kermode]

Kevin. Kevin.

[Jack Howard]

I find it funny that you find the Minions funny.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Well, there we go. But that's fine.

[Jack Howard]

Fine. But I don't go. Mark likes the Minions.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, so. But. So I think in terms of your, you know, I love Christopher Nolan and I can't stay away from. From, you know, getting. Reading that stuff and looking at, and wanting to see the trailer and want to see all the stuff and finding out what people are saying.

[Jack Howard]

But then also, it's because the evil algorithms terminally online.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

I'm not looking for the hate.

[Mark Kermode]

No, it's coming to you. Yes.

[Jack Howard]

So it just goes, look at that. And I go, hell, like, so I'm not even really engaging with it at all. But it's there and it's. And it goes in. And then when you see it often enough, it's like, God, that, like, it is. It's bile.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's great that you love Nolan as much as you do. I think it's no nuns work.

[Jack Howard]

We've said before maybe we could love each other one day, but we don't know.

[Mark Kermode]

No. Okay. But that's fine. I think again, you're in a slightly sort of.

[Jack Howard]

You sort of made it sexual earlier. Now that you say I love Nolan.

[Mark Kermode]

No. Yeah, but listen, firstly, I'm an old man. I'm not really capable of making anything sexual. But in terms of that thing about saying, I mean, I love Ken Russell, I mean, I knew Ken. I didn't, you know, I love Ken Russell.

[Jack Howard]

I'll say it loud and proud.

[Mark Kermode]

I love Christopher Nolan and I love William Friedkin and I love Lynn Ramsey and I, you know, I love Doug. Although these are things that I love, when I say them, I mean them and their work. Because to me, if you are the person that made those films, it's part of what I love is you. Yeah. Because.

[Jack Howard]

Because you've done something, you've put something in the world that without you even knowing, you've changed my life and enhanced my life and you put yourself into that thing. I love you for that.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. And I think it's fine. And I think actually, so this is. This is a good note to end on. I think we should all be a little less circumspect about saying we love things. And I also. I'll finish this on a. On a very sort of specific note, I have a rule now, which is this. If I see something and I really like it, the first thing I do is I go onto to see if the person who made it is available on social media to send them a message just to say, I really like this. And the reason is because everyone knows when somebody doesn't. But if you read a book that was written 20 years ago and you really liked it, just see if the author is available. Just. Nobody ever didn't like finding. You're not asking for anything back in return. Not saying, can I have a selfie? You're not saying, you know, can I have an autograph? You're not saying, can I have half an hour of your time. It's just. I just want you to know I really like this. Thank you very much. Yep.

[Jack Howard]

I totally agree with you. And just so someone who's received messages like that from people who've seen. Yeah, man. Like, well, from you. Like, I really have received them from you.

[Mark Kermode]

That is true.

[Jack Howard]

Which I often. I'm just like, I always turn to Ailey, my girlfriend, and I'm just like, look at what marks to send me. But also just from strangers as well.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, there we go. That's proof that I'm as good as my word, that I actually do.

[Jack Howard]

You actually do do it. And. And when I receive those messages from strangers, whether they've seen, like, you know, the old Jack and Dean Stu did, or whether or not it's for the film I made last year called the Second Time around, which is available on Channel 4, if you want to watch it, which is very inspired by Christopher Nolan. Like, you know, I wear that on my sleeve. Even the end credits of my film look like Christopher Nolan credits because I love them so much. But when I receive, you know, that kind of message from somebody, I see everything, the bad and the good. And when the good comes through, it is just a bit like, oh, okay, good.

[Mark Kermode]

Like, it's.

[Jack Howard]

It's made a little impact on somebody and that it is worthwhile. So if Christopher Nolan was on Instagram, I'd send him a message.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, good. Of course he isn't.

[Jack Howard]

And he. And he doesn't want to fuck me.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, there we go. That was part two of our ongoing Christopher Nolan discussion, which went to some

[Jack Howard]

very strange and unexpected areas, and I don't know where else it could go or how many more parts will be needed.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, hopefully the next time we talk about Nolan's work, we may have seen the Odyssey or we may just do a third part even before then.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, who knows? I mean, if it's going well, if people are enjoying this, then why not carry on?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. So if you've enjoyed the podcast, what should they do?

[Jack Howard]

They should like the video, subscribe to the channel, subscribe to the podcast if you're listening to this, or leave us a review. They really, really help. And if you would like more. Mark Kermode, where should they go?

[Mark Kermode]

Kermod of Mayo's Take. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening and watching.

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[Mark Kermode]

Hello, this is Simon Mayo. And this is Mark kermode. He's the UK's best and most trusted film critic. He's a best selling writer, broadcaster and national treasure. Far too kind, Kermod. And Mayo's Take has all the reviews you need and star guests such as Sir Ian McKellen.

[Jack Howard]

Nice to be with you, Emma Stone.

[Mark Kermode]

That sounds like something I would love

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[Mark Kermode]

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[Jack Howard]

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[Mark Kermode]

Mayo's take. All the film you need, available wherever you get your podcasts.