Disclosure Day is Dividing People

Summary

Kermode on Film: “Disclosure Day is Dividing People”

Host: Mark Kermode
Guest: Jack Howard
Recorded: June 16, 2026
Location: The Sun Pub, London’s West End
Main Topic: Reviewing and Debating Steven Spielberg’s “Disclosure Day”

---

Episode Overview

Mark Kermode and Jack Howard sit down the day they’ve both seen Steven Spielberg’s much-debated new film, Disclosure Day. In lively, sometimes opposing, but always affectionate debate, they break down Spielberg’s choices, the film’s emotional impact, its relation to past classics (including Close Encounters and Arrival), the divisive CGI, and that contentious ending. This is a conversation about what cinema can do, the difference between fun and profundity, and why even great directors sometimes recycle ideas.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Immediate Emotional Reactions to “Disclosure Day”

• Jack’s Reaction: Deeply moved and excited, calling it “what cinema is.”

  • “I was floored by it... this is what cinema is.” (Jack, 01:44)
  • Emotional during mid-film car chase: not overtly sad, but hit by the craftsmanship and scale (01:52).
  • Felt privileged to watch a new Spielberg adventure, calling back the sense that “they don’t make them anymore.”

• Mark’s Reaction: Enjoyed, but not exceptional; didn’t feel the magic Jack did.

  • “I didn’t dislike the film at all. I thought it was, you know, really good fun and really entertaining. But I also thought it wasn’t exceptional.” (Mark, 03:28)

2. Comparing “Disclosure Day” to Spielberg’s Earlier Work

• Mark draws a direct line to Close Encounters of the Third Kind (04:10–05:20):

  • Both films focus on characters “obsessed” due to mysterious, alien communication.
  • “What you get with Disclosure Day is a really, really well made, but I think altogether less profound version of that story.” (Mark, 05:14)

• Jack says, for a modern adventure, the film “drops you right in” with no slow build; likens its energy to espionage and Indiana Jones (06:58–07:27).

3. Performances, Craft, and Spielberg’s Touch

• Colin Firth: Convincingly villainous, invoked classic Indiana Jones energy (07:27–07:38).
• Emily Blunt: “She’s always fantastic…A role that, if played by someone else, could have been fairly thankless.” (Jack, 08:40–08:51)
• Josh O’Connor: “I was watching…I think he should be Bond, man.” (Jack, 09:02)
• Spielberg’s Craft: Praised for precise camera movement and shot blocking, even in mundane scenes (07:35–08:30).

4. Music, Nostalgia—and “Old Hat” Criticisms

• Music: Jack loved the John Williams score blending classic and modern Spielberg; Mark feels some bits “ripped off the X Files” (09:12–09:23) but admits its old-fashioned grandeur.
• Lens Flare Overload: Mark notes, “That’s enough lens flare. Ed, I mean, I know you like lens flare and I know it’s your thing and I know J.J. Abrams stole…” (09:58)
• Roswell Reveal: Mark feels the third-act “Roswell” angle is tired:
  • “There was a part of me that thought … after all this really interesting setup…oh, it’s the Roswell aliens. Because we know what the Roswell aliens look like.” (11:09–11:57)
  • References how much more ambiguous and profound Close Encounters’ ending was; here, it’s “a bit hokey” (13:10–14:19).

5. Dividing Lines: Deeper Meaning or Old Tricks?

• Jack on Themes: Sees the film as closer to Arrival (2016)—about how people communicate, not just aliens (19:00–20:10):

  • “This movie is more about how people communicate to each other…That’s what’s happening in Disclosure Day as well.”

• Mark’s Retort:

  • “I don’t think it’s anything like as smart as Arrival.” (19:18)
  • Compares the difference between “profound” (Arrival, Close Encounters) and “popcorn fun.” Suggests Disclosure Day follows old formulas, offers nothing new (20:10–21:30).

• Script and Ending Issues:

  • Mark criticizes writer David Koepp for “dropping the ball” on recent projects, says Disclosure Day’s ending is “ropey.” (14:51)
  • Neither Mark nor Jack found the ending fully satisfying—Jack describes it as lacking new ideas but utilizing old ones well (29:21–29:35).

6. Visual Effects: The CGI Fox Problem

• Both call out subpar CGI for animals, especially a fox:
  • “You have to remind yourself sometimes that this is the guy who made Jurassic Park…But you can’t do a fox.” (01:39–06:02)
• Jack suggests that the cartoonish look fits the “storybook, childlike” feel in some scenes (29:56–30:21).

7. Nostalgia, References & Religious Themes

• Discussion of nostalgia: lens flares, old pop songs (Gwen Stefani), and Spielberg’s “Spielbergian” interest in mashed-potato-level childhood wonder (14:19–15:52).
• Short detour into heavy-handed religious subplots—especially the “call a nun” scene, which both find a bit hokey and reminiscent of Contact (1997) (24:04–24:19).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I was floored by it... this is what cinema is.” (Jack Howard, 01:44)
• “I didn’t dislike the film at all … But I also thought it wasn’t exceptional.” (Mark Kermode, 03:28)
• “The CGI fox made the CGI fox in Lars von Trier’s Antichrist look like a talking fox.” (Mark, 05:39)
• “You have to remind yourself sometimes that this is the guy who made Jurassic Park.” (Jack, 05:51)
• “The hairs on my arm were stood all the way up. It was so engaging.” (Jack, 23:35)
• “I don’t think it’s anything like as smart as Arrival.” (Mark, 19:18)
• “So are you… saying the reason the CG animals look shonky–” “No, I’m gonna interrupt you right now…” (Mark & Jack, 29:41–29:55)
• Silent Running anecdote: “For me, it never mattered, because Silent Running works emotionally.” (Mark, 30:28–31:43)
• On filmmakers and interpretation: “My favorite thing is filmmakers putting things out, audiences interpreting it, and the filmmaker being like, ‘yeah, if you want.’” (Jack, 31:43)
• “I would encourage people to go and see it… I have a feeling that it’s not going to do very well.” (Jack & Mark, 32:36–32:46)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:43] Jack’s emotional reaction, Mark’s more measured response
• [04:10–05:20] Parallels to Close Encounters, discussion of obsession and knowledge
• [06:49–07:35] Praise for the cast and Spielberg’s filmmaking craft
• [09:12–09:52] Debating the music and aesthetic choices
• [09:58–10:35] Lens flare and nostalgia in Spielberg’s visual choices
• [11:09–12:04] Mark’s dissatisfaction with the Roswell reveal
• [14:39–15:52] Script and ending debates; reference to David Koepp and Spielberg’s endings
• [19:00–20:10] Comparing Disclosure Day to Arrival and Close Encounters
• [23:16–23:52] Jack’s favorite action set pieces and moments of Spielberg “magic”
• [29:21–30:21] Final thoughts on old vs. new ideas; forgiving shoddy CGI due to childlike tone
• [31:43–32:39] Silent Running anecdote and reflections on film interpretation

---

Final Thoughts

• Mark and Jack agree:
  • The film is technically impressive, entertaining, and worth seeing.
  • Both take issue with the film’s ending—Mark more than Jack.
  • CGI animals are distractingly poor by Spielberg standards.
• Key difference:
  • Jack was swept up by the sense of cinematic joy and adventure—a “privilege.”
  • Mark was left wishing he felt the magic, sensing recycled ideas and a lack of real profundity.
• Shared Takeaway:
  • Everyone should go see Disclosure Day and join the conversation: it’s dividing people for a reason.

---

“I would encourage people to go and see it because it’s… you know, I, and on that we are completely together because I have a feeling that it’s not going to do very well. I don’t know why.”
(Mark & Jack, 32:36–32:46)

---

For more spirited film reviews and debates, subscribe to ‘Kermode on Film’ or check out ‘Kermode & Mayo’s Take’.

Transcript

[Monday.com Ad Voice]

This is a Monday.com ad. The same Monday.com helping people worldwide getting work done faster and better. The same Monday.com designed for every team and every industry. The same Monday.com with built in AI scaling your work from day one. The same Monday.com that your team will actually love using the samemonday.com with an easy and intuitive setup. Go to Monday.com and try it for free. Yes, the same Monday.com

[Mark Kermode]

hi, this is Mark Cuomo. Thanks for downloading this Kermode Unfilm podcast or indeed watching us on our YouTube channel. We are here once again at the Sun Pub in London's glittering West End. And I'm joined once again by Jack Howard.

[Jack Howard]

Hello, everyone. Today we're going to be talking about Disclosure Day, the new film by Steven Spielberg. If you're watching this video, don't forget to like it. If you're listening to this video, you're really missing out on the visual art element because, you know, because we're talking about Spielberg. We've decided to dress as our favorite Steven Spielberg characters. And I am dressed as Indiana Jones and I'm pulling it off. And Mark has come dressed as the shark from Jaws.

[Mark Kermode]

So some timey Wimey business first. Okay. Disclosure Day opened last week. You will have heard my review on Simon Mayo and Mark Kermode's Kermoda Mayo's take. However, we. We are recording this podcast on the day that Jack and I saw Disclosure Day. In fact, it's the afternoon we saw it this morning about 100 yards down the road. And the reason I want to pick this up is because as the film finished, Jack, who was sitting next to me, turned to me and went, I just feel completely wired up. I feel completely. You had said something like empowered or.

[Jack Howard]

I was floored by it.

[Mark Kermode]

Flawed. You said I was flawed. And you said, this is what cinema is. Now I want you to describe that, your response for the viewers and listeners.

[Jack Howard]

So there's a moment in Disclosure Day where there's like a car chase in the middle of the movie. And I found myself getting emotional. And it's not an emotional point of the film. It's really a quite exciting moment of the film. It's almost at some stages when the trains on the tracks. A bit like a Mission Impossible. It is exactly right. It's the moment they were leading up to when they throw the car off the cliff. We're going to be doing spoilers in this.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jack Howard]

So this is only for people that have seen the movie, but during that sequence, I found Myself getting really emotional. And I was trying to figure out why. And I think it's because I felt privileged to be watching a movie by Steven Spielberg that's this good. The filmmaking is. Is so of such a high level. Of course it is, because it's Spielberg. But a movie that's like, about aliens and it's got car chases and it's like a government is like trying to track someone down. It's like an adventure, but also it's made. I guess what I want to say is like. Like they don't make them anymore. And I was watching it being like, I can't believe this is new. I can't believe that I'm seeing this. And it just felt like, oh, yeah, movies can be this. And yeah, it just made me feel very like, yeah, this is why I like movies.

[Mark Kermode]

So we haven't spoken about this yet. And obviously, because we're recording this in the afternoon after we saw the film. You haven't heard my review.

[Jack Howard]

I haven't.

[Mark Kermode]

On Comet of May, because I haven't done it yet. But in the time you wi me from, I will now tell you that when you said that to me, I thought, I wish I felt the same way. Oh, really?

[Jack Howard]

Now this is gonna be interesting.

[Mark Kermode]

I wanna be absolutely clear about this. I didn't dislike the film at all. I thought it was, you know, really good fun and really entertaining. But I also thought it wasn't exceptional.

[Jack Howard]

I thought that this is not what I expected.

[Mark Kermode]

I know, I know. And this is why I saved saying this until. Until now. And I this conversation now before you've heard my review of it. So my experience of watching it was, you know, it's Steven Spielberg doing an alien invasion movie. Obviously, Close Encounters for my generation is a really, really big deal. I'm actually probably honestly more of a big deal than ET because there is an awful lot of Close Encounters in Disclosure Day. Because, like Close Encounters, Disclosure Day centers in on two characters who know stuff without knowing why they know it. They have been some knowledge by an alien visitation and that knowledge is obsessing them. It's causing them actually great hardship and great problems in their life because they can't make sense of it. And without spoiling the film, I think we can say that one of the things that happens with the two central characters is they're both trying to figure out what it is they know, why it is they know it and what it means that they know it. And until that gets solved, they can't relax. Okay? That is the central theme of Close Encounters for me in Close Encounters, when the central character played by Richard Dreyfus, his life falls apart because he's had this kind of alien Passover which has implanted this vision in his head of what turns out to be the Devil's mountain thing, which he doesn't. He can't figure out what it is. He ends up making it out of mashed potato. He makes it out. That scene when he's going mad at the dinner table, I think is one of Spielberg's best scenes because it's horrifying. And I think what you get with Disclosure Day is a really, really well made, but I think altogether less profound version of that story. Now tell me what you loved so much.

[Jack Howard]

I think it would take less time to tell you what I didn't like.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, tell me what you didn't like.

[Jack Howard]

Some of the CGI was a bit ropey.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, the CGI animals bit ropey. Not a bit ropey. The CGI fox made the CGI fox in Lars von Kreus, Lars von Trier's Antichri look like a talking fox.

[Jack Howard]

And you have to remind yourself sometimes that this is the guy who, like, made Jurassic Park.

[Mark Kermode]

Jurassic park. Who, like, believe that there's a Tyrannosaurus rex. I believe that you're being chased by velociraptors, but you can't do a fox.

[Jack Howard]

Velociraptors.

[Mark Kermode]

That's what they're called.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. Sorry. It's just funny the way you pronounced it. How would you say it? Velociraptors. Velociraptors is what you said. No, young people.

[Mark Kermode]

Seriously. Anyway, moving on.

[Jack Howard]

Basically, the you. You remember, you have to remind yourself that the reason he shot that Tyrannosaurus rex sequence in the dark and in rain is to disguise the difference of when it was a animatronic and when it was cgi. And that's what's so genius about it. And it's why they hold up even better than the Jurassic World films, which obviously have better cgi. Technically, yeah, but that sequence in Jurassic park, it like. But then you've like. Have you forgotten your own things?

[Mark Kermode]

I just think it's really, really strange that in a movie as big as Disclosure Day, you've got shonky CGI animals.

[Jack Howard]

Crazy.

[Mark Kermode]

I mean, it is crazy.

[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

It's like.

[Mark Kermode]

It's not impossible to do this, people. I bet you there's a YouTuber who's done it

[Jack Howard]

now.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so what?

[Jack Howard]

I loved what I loved. I loved its tone. I love that we were dropped straight into this, like, conspiracy, like, espionage, they're after me kind of thing. We were just dropped into the middle of it. It wasn't just, like, you don't have all the boring setup of, like, I'm just a guy working in an office, and I think I found something. Like, he's got it. We're in the middle. Like, we. It's almost like we're dropped into the third act of a different film. Okay. And it feels like we're watching espionage. Indiana Jones. Like, that's what the tone felt like. Like, Colin Firth is playing. Like, I thought.

[Mark Kermode]

I thought Colin Firth was very convincingly bad. Very, very kind of, you know, Indiana Jones villain.

[Jack Howard]

That's what it felt like. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, Like a proper villain.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. Like, that's what it felt like. And the way that the camera was moved. I mean, we know this about Spielberg. He can do the camera movement and the blocking and even, like, the shots of, like, cars arriving at a building. I'm like, you're not, like, throwing in just anything that you're. Every single setup that he does is just stunning. And every shot moves into, like, three different places. And it's, like, so efficient and beautiful and probably instinctive for him at this point, because I don't know how he does it, because I would say that Spielberg is a magician. Like, I don't know. Like, when I'm watching, you know, we've talked about Nolan, how he scratches my brain.

[Mark Kermode]

Have we talked about Nolan?

[Jack Howard]

There's more comment that he scratches my brain. That when I'm watching it, I'm engaged, obviously, in the story that he's telling, but also in, like, the filmmaking that he's doing is kind of like. It's doing something that makes sense for me when I'm watching Spielberg, that is. That is switched off.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

Like, Spielberg, I'm going. If you are. I don't know how you've done. How you've decided that's where the camera's going and all that stuff. I thought Emily Blunt was fantastic.

[Mark Kermode]

Emily Blunt is fantastic.

[Jack Howard]

Look, she's always, always fantastic in this. That is a. A role that, if played by someone else, could have been fairly thankless.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, I think. I think. I think she is really, really good.

[Jack Howard]

She's so convincing. Is like, I can't believe this is happening to me. I'm just going with it. But also, she's kind of doing it in a cute way. And, I mean, I thought Josh o' Connor is terrific. Terrific.

[Mark Kermode]

All things James Bond.

[Jack Howard]

Me and you. Definitely. I mean, I was watching That I was like, yeah, I think he should be Bond, man. I'm seeing him these action sequences and I believe him. I just, I loved the music. I. I mean.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, can I, can I raise it? Can I raise a couple of things? Okay. The music. Okay. Firstly, the music at the end of the film.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

That was the theme from the X Files.

[Jack Howard]

I don't know if it was.

[Mark Kermode]

It literally went. It's like, sorry, we're ripping off the X. Okay.

[Jack Howard]

I'll just pass John Williams, just so you know.

[Mark Kermode]

I know John Williams.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

It's not like John Williams ever lifted anything from anything else ever before.

[Jack Howard]

Discuss. Yeah, but, but I, I found the score to be like a mix of him doing an Indiana Jonesy.

[Mark Kermode]

It's an old fashioned Star Wars. Very old fashioned, mixed with a little

[Jack Howard]

bit of Catch Me if youf can stuff that he's done. Yeah, but it is, it's a very old fashioned. It's a score that you wouldn't get okay. In a modern movie.

[Mark Kermode]

Second thing, that's enough lens flare. Ed, I mean, I'm sorry, but you said I don't know how he designs shots. Yeah, you do. It's. How can we get the lens flare to work? I mean, I know it's in very specific scenes and I thought at one point I thought this is quite clever because all this is happening within the confines of the artificial house, within the confines of the constructed nostalgia. Okay. But come on, man. I mean, it's like, you know, I know you like lens flare and I know it's your thing and I know J.J. abrams stole.

[Jack Howard]

It's very funny, isn't it? Is that like. It felt like J.J. abrams, like was doing Spielberg. Now it feels like Spielberg's doing Abrams.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, it really, really just like you keep expecting the starship Enterprise to hove interview with some, you know, digitally created lens. And the third, third thing, and this is my, my larger complaint, the whole third act reveal. Did that not feel to you like, okay, well, this is probably an age thing. Roswell, you know, the whole Roswell is such old hat stuff that Anton Deck made a movie about Roswell.

[Jack Howard]

It's a funny idea as well, that Anton Deck movie.

[Mark Kermode]

It is, but that's how old hat the idea is. And there was a part of me that thought, well, after all this really interesting thing, this interesting setup, the Roy. Because you don't get that in Close Encounters. Close Encounters is not Roswell. Close Encounters is this weird encounter at the end in which the conversation happens through music. And you know, whether you. I mean, I Prefer the version when you don't go inside the spaceship, although it's actually, the differences are fairly small. But it was, it was like, wow, I've never seen a space. Remember the bit when the spaceship turns upside down because you realize it's actually the wrong way up, but you don't. And you know it's. And Francois Truffaut is standing there going, it's astonishing. I did think there was something a bit hokey about, oh, it's the Roswell aliens. Because we know what the Roswell aliens look like.

[Jack Howard]

But the whole thing is about. It's kind of riffing on the fact that like, yeah, these things have been kept from us.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

So wouldn't it be weird if he just made some up? Because wouldn't you be like, but what about the ones that really exist?

[Mark Kermode]

But see, I don't, I mean, you know, if there, if there has been extra contest. Exactly. I don't believe it's the Roswell aliens. I, you know, when I was, when I was in the 1970s, I was in a band and we had to have a poster for our band and I had a book about extraterrestrial invasion and I take, I took an image from the front of it and I used it as the image from our band because it was so amazing. Because I'd read all this stuff and then I'd read the thing about, you know, the Chariots of the Gods and all that singing Eric Von Daniken and all that absolute bilge stuff that now feels to me like a very old punchline. And I thought that it was just a shame that the strangeness of what was happening with the characters literally came down to little gray men with wizened legs, wizened arms, big buggy eyes like we've seen a million times before. At the end of AI that whole thing that everybody thought, you know, the super Mecha thing that everybody thought was Spielberg jamming his aliens into the end of Kubrick script.

[Acast Announcer]

It isn't.

[Mark Kermode]

It's in, it's in the. It's in the original story of the, you know, of the kind of the slightly ethereal super mecca. I think once you've. It just felt very old fashioned. I mean, I know what you mean.

[Jack Howard]

I do know what you mean. Because at the beginning it all felt very like the parodies of movies I've seen people do like, like Tick Tock Will Tick Tockers will do like things like that bit in the movie when the guy knows too much. And it's like a perfect version and it is. It was a bit of that at the beginning. Like, I did an impression to my girlfriend Ailey. Whereas, like, it's this kind of movie. It's a bit when Josh o' Connor goes. Do you understand this? Because I can.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, that's right.

[Jack Howard]

It's like I get. I can, I can, I can understand them. It's that kind of. And I was like, I'm kind of charmed by this. But also it's a movie that, like, hang on, hang on. Emily Blunt, like, drives down the street listening to Gwen Stefani. And I was like, I just think maybe because of her age, maybe she would love Gwen Stefani. But I was like, this is the only pop song in the movie. And it's a pop song from like 20 years ago, maybe even longer. I was like that. Even that feels, Steven. That feels a little bit old fashioned. So I'll give you that.

[Mark Kermode]

But the suggestion of that is that it means a lot to her because the whole thing is about something that happened to her in her childhood and, and again in the house recreation. That's the nostalgia thing. And the nostalgia thing is, is the lens flare. My other, My other point is this. I didn't buy the ending. I didn't buy that. I'm sorry.

[Jack Howard]

Everyone stopping, everyone stopping.

[Mark Kermode]

I just didn't buy it. And I, and I, I was kind of concerned that I didn't buy it because I think there's a way of doing it that I do that I would have bought. Who's the script by?

[Jack Howard]

David Cap.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so I think that David Kep has dropped the ball a few times recently. I think when it came to the most recent Jurassic Park, I thought he did an absolutely terrible job. And I think he has been a great film screenwriter in the past. It's interesting that I hadn't even clocked that he'd written this. I think that that end is ropey. And I think that whatever you think about Close Encounters, even whichever version you go for, and I know the fact that Spielberg says if I could go back and redo it now, he wouldn't get on the ship because he's got kids.

[Jack Howard]

I also, I would agree with. I've always found, because I watched Close Encounters years and years after it was met, obviously I wasn't alive when it was made. So I've always felt funny about the ending of Close Encounters.

[Mark Kermode]

But. But it's still a better ending because there's some. There's something really weird, like properly weird about the way Close Encounters ends. And I interviewed Richard DreyFuss on stage, MK3D that I do at the BFI South Bank. And he said, yeah, I know. Stephen now says if he could do it again now, he'd change the ending. He said there isn't another ending. The ending is. He gets on the thing. Why? Because he has been driven mad. He has. He's. He had been that scene when he's doing the thing with the mashed potato, when he's doing the stuff with all the stuff in the. And the kids are crying and the. And the mum ends up, you know, getting them into the car and going off because dad's gone mad. I mean, it's almost a film about alcoholism and that thing that of course he gets. Of course he gets on the ship at the end because he's gone mad. And I know there may be a more humane, more family friendly version of it, but I actually really like the ending of Clark Close Encounters because it's dark. Whereas I think what Disclosure Day tries to do

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

a better help ad. Hold on one second, I just need to. What if you had a room where no one interrupts, no notifications, no expectations, just space to talk with? BetterHelp therapy happens in a space that's yours. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy.

[Acast Announcer]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend

[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

if you've ever dreamed of quitting your job to take your side hustle full time. Listen up. This is Nikayla Matthews Akome, host of side Hustle Pro, a podcast that helps you build and grow from passion project to profitable business. Every week you'll hear from guests just like you who wanted to start a business on the side. If you can't run a side hustle, you can't run a business. They share real tips. And so I started connecting with all these people on LinkedIn and I saw Target supplier diversity was having office hours. Real advice.

[Monday.com Ad Voice]

Procrastination is the easiest form of resistance.

[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

And the actual strategies they use to turn their side hustle into their main hustle. Getting back in touch with your tangible cash and sitting down and learning to give your money a job like it changes something. Check outside Hustle Pro every week on your favorite podcast app and YouTube.

[Acast Announcer]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com

[Mark Kermode]

is much less ambiguous and therefore bothers me.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, but also it's interesting that.

[Mark Kermode]

And it was just after that. It was just after that ending that you literally turned to Me and said, you know, my mind is blown.

[Jack Howard]

I literally leant forward.

[Mark Kermode]

I thought you were crying.

[Jack Howard]

I mean, at some points, I felt like I was about to. Just because I wish.

[Mark Kermode]

I wish. I wish I'd had that experience. So don't get me wrong. I don't dislike it. It's really well made and great performances and. And you're right about the. Nobody shoots cars arriving outside a house quite like.

[Jack Howard]

But what I mean is that, like, you're talking about closing counters a lot, which I understand, but that I wouldn't compare what these movies are about. I actually think that this is closer to Arrival. This movie is more about how people communicate to each other, not hearing each other, trying to stop.

[Mark Kermode]

I don't think it's anything like as smart as a rival.

[Jack Howard]

I would agree. I don't think that. But I don't think anything is as close to as smart as a rival. I don't think I've seen a movie that's smarter in terms of. But what I mean is it's like an Alien movie where they're learning a language that's about human beings communicating with each other to stop a war from happening. And that's what's happening in disclosure day as well.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

Like, it's literally from the beginning. There's a moment when she speaks Korean, I believe, and she can speak any language. Yeah. But there's a moment where she speaks Korean and stops a miscommunication from happening. Where they're interpreting him as aggressive.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. Something is not inevitable or prefigured or it's something that's happened.

[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

But she.

[Mark Kermode]

What he's. What she's saying is he's not being aggressive. He's saying, this has happened before. This is a pattern. This will happen again.

[Jack Howard]

Yes. And so I think that it's closer to something like Arrival in terms of what it's trying to do, why it's using the metaphor of aliens.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

I would say Close Encounters.

[Mark Kermode]

I would say in this. I'm getting. I'm getting crueler about the movie as we talk. But I want to re. Stress again that I did really enjoy it, I think, is to Arrival what the Butterfly effect was to Donnie Darko and the kid. You know, the kid. Well done for even understanding that.

[Jack Howard]

Oh, Butterfly effect was a big thing for millennials.

[Mark Kermode]

But that whole thing that in Arrival, the thing about language. Well, it's. I mean, because Arrival, which is based on a short story by Ted Chiang called the story of your life.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

Which takes a huge amount of inspiration from Kurt Vonnegut and Kurt Vonnegut and Slaughterhouse Five in the Trial for Midori. And seeing time as cyclical and understanding that, you know, you don't see it linearly. You see it like this. And the whole thing with Arrival, which until you've seen the whole film for the first time, you don't realize is happening with the knowledge of what happens at the end, at the beginning. So when you hear that opening narrative, it's all happened already.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. You think you're watching a backstory, but you're actually watching a premonition.

[Mark Kermode]

Precisely. And I think that is brilliant and profound. I think there is a David Cup Kep cup level of lack of profundity in the. We taught you how to understand maths and we taught you how to understand people.

[Jack Howard]

But you also have to remember that it was a story by Steven Spielberg. So I think that, I think that David Cap is following the, the instruction of Spielberg. I still think there's no, there's nothing more Spielberg to me than two people. You've been taught logic and you've been taught emotion.

[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

And that's Spielberg, man.

[Mark Kermode]

Stanley Kubrick, Steven Spielberg.

[Jack Howard]

You literally have to think about like when he like adapted his own childhood in the Fableman's, his last film, which I also love.

[Mark Kermode]

I did love the Fablemans. I really enjoyed it.

[Jack Howard]

His dad is a technician, his mother is an artist.

[Nikayla Matthews Akome]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

That's how I became Steven Spielberg.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. No, I mean, he's going to just

[Jack Howard]

always do that kind of stuff.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, all right. Well, on the, on the subject of the stuff that I did, like, I thought that the, the action set pieces were really good. I thought the thing with the train

[Jack Howard]

was like absolutely Mission Impossible. Right?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Fantastic.

[Jack Howard]

Fully Mission impossible sequence.

[Mark Kermode]

And then the brilliant thing when they then jump onto the boxcar and they're in a hobo movie. It's suddenly like they're in Beggars of Life. From like, you keep expecting Wallace Beery to come out one of these. You've got them on a boxcar. Well done. And then. And she starts to have a panic attack. And he does the thing about. Because you know, there's no. Nobody puts 20 grand pianos in a scene. Unless it's because I think about, you know, you show a gun at the beginning of a film, you have to use it. By the third act, you put 20 pianos. That's right. It really is, isn't it? And then he puts his hand up against the strings or her hand against the strings. And that I thought, oh, actually that works really well. That's a really, really nice thing. I thought performances were great. I thought the way it looked. I mean, just the fact that he's. I don't mean this is a criticism. He's slick. He knows how to make something look good, whether it's a tatty motel or a, you know, a gravel track. It's, it's, it's nice to look at

[Jack Howard]

the sequence when Josh o' Connor is sneaking towards the farmhouse. And I don't know how he's done it, but there's a shot that revolves around him. Through the fence, follows him down the fence, back across the fence again. I was like, he's got so. There's so much kinetic energy in a Spielberg movie. And honestly, the bit when the crop circles happened.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jack Howard]

The hairs on my arm, the hairs on my arm, like, were stood all the way up. It was so engaging. And I think that's the thing is I was just, I was on its ride and I was just, I was like, whatever to like, like. I thought the religious stuff was really heavy handed. Yeah, really heavy handed.

[Mark Kermode]

But I'm just going to ring a nun and ask her whether she thinks that the discovery of alien life will make Catholicism obsolete. And moreover, I'll do it in a 30 second phone call because the answer is no.

[Jack Howard]

No, don't worry about it.

[Mark Kermode]

You know, if the Pope doing an encyclical was. In case anyone's wondering, the discovery of alien life is fine because in the Bible it says that man is God's greatest creation on earth. Obviously that was hokey as tell everyone, tell everyone. But also that felt like a kind of callback to contact, when the whole thing in contact is, you know, the shall we send Jodie Foster, who understands how all this stuff works, or shall we send Matthew McConaughey because he carried a Bible into the last scene and apparently is a, you know, evangelical preacher. I mean, I'm absolutely not down on it. The whole thing was just thrown into sharp relief for me by the fact that, you know, contrary to what people think,

[Acast Announcer]

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Jameela Jamil]

What if you laughed all through your commute or if you heard the funniest story while at the gym?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, now you can.

[Jameela Jamil]

I'm Jameela Jamil, and guests on my new podcast, Wrong Turns share their most mortifying and hilarious disaster stories. I'm talking people like May Martin, Bob the Drag Queen, Katherine Ryan, Jake Johnson, Margaret Cho, Simon Pegg, Penn Badgley, and so many more. So listen Wherever you get your podcast Wrong turns where dignity goes to die.

[Acast Announcer]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com you've got social dialed in.

[Acast Marketing Voice]

Search is doing its thing. So why do your marketing results look the same as six months ago? That's because you're fishing in the same pond as everyone else. Podcast listeners are a different audience entirely. More engaged, harder to reach through traditional channels, and ready to act when someone they trust makes a recommendation. We're Acast and we put them right in front of you. Browse thousands of the world's leading podcast book host reads or run your own ads and track every conversion in real time. Same skills you already have brand new results. Acast.acast.com advertise

[Mark Kermode]

I don't, as critics don't go into movies wanting to dislike them. You go into them wanting to love them. And I, because I was sitting next to you, I could feel how much you were enjoying it. And I was, you know, I was enjoying it, too. It was a, you know, it was a popcorn ride and it was good, but I could feel that you were getting something out of it that I wasn't. Incidentally, that doesn't mean, you know, I'm right, you're wrong, or the other way around. But what I wanted was the feeling that you were getting, which was the feeling that I got from Close Encounters, which was absolutely the feeling that we both got from Arrival, which I think is a. Is a very superior film, but is also. When I grew up loving science fiction, which I did. You know, I was a science fiction fan from a kid. It was that sense of magic, you know, you've said it's like there is a. There is a real magic in it. And I suppose, you know, at the very end of Crystal Skull. Yeah, there's all the nonsense when it's like they go around the thing and there's all the different aliens, like, you know, and it's like, don't be stupid. Yeah, I. There is part of me that has always felt that Spielberg has had at his core, the child in the. I know the whole Peter Pan thing is interesting, of course, that they use Someday My Prince Will Come. But that whole childish thing about I really want there to be space aliens. I really want there to be. I mean, he's like, you know, the Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft by the Carpenters. He wants that to be happening. And I suppose I just wanted to believe that it was happening. You know, you remember in, in the X Files, there was that Poster I want to believe. And I really did. And I thought you did. And I thought I. And I felt jealous.

[Jack Howard]

I hear you, man. Like, I think I. Because I think that with Spielberg's age,

[Mark Kermode]

you have a better experience of it than me, but, like, who I am.

[Jack Howard]

I really, really liked that. Because obviously, like, the plot revolves around the fact that Josh o' Connor's character and Emily Blunt's character, they were both abducted by aliens as children.

[Mark Kermode]

But they don't know.

[Jack Howard]

But they don't know that because it feels very fairy tale. Which is almost why I think, like, if I'm gonna be a bit nicer about the hokey vfx, like, which is why I almost feel like that CGI feeling, like, storybooky kind. It kind of got away with it in the moment because I was watching it being like, oh, this is all a mirage. Like, it's all. They're all like. You know, it's that brilliant piece of acting from Josh o' Connor where he's like, they're not animals. Like, when he's like, going like that, she shouldn't go. Because he remembers it as this, like, horrible panic inducing moment. And actually, Emily Blunt's as a. As a little girl was a lot calmer. But them being taken into the alien spaceship is not a light beaming them up into it. It's them being guided to being shown something by these, like, magical animals. I was like, I've never seen that before.

[Mark Kermode]

So are. So are you.

[Jack Howard]

But I would say that it has no new ideas. And I know that you always say that with sci fi. It's a. It's a genre. And I would agree. But I don't think this has got any new ones. But I think the ones that it's playing with, it's playing with them in ways that I haven't seen in a long time.

[Mark Kermode]

I think we can find common ground in that. I just want to. This is a final thought. I just want to be absolutely clear about this.

[Jack Howard]

You didn't hate it?

[Mark Kermode]

No, no, no. It's not what I'm gonna say. I'm gonna say. So just to be clear, what you're saying is that the reason the CG animals look shonky.

[Jack Howard]

No, I'm gonna interrupt you right now.

[Mark Kermode]

Go on.

[Jack Howard]

I'm saying the reason why in the moment that I wasn't like, they look shonky and I don't like this. The reason why in the moment I was letting it get away with it and not going. This is pulling me out of it. Is because they Looked a little bit cartoonish and child and childish, like an animated movie. And that kind of. Especially in that sequence when they're being guided to the alien, Hansel and Gretel house. I was like, I'm letting this slide a bit more because it feels like it's for children.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, I'm gonna close this with a.

[Brooke Devard]

With it.

[Mark Kermode]

With a. Close this with a story from an unrelated film. But it's about silent running.

[Jack Howard]

Oh, here we go.

[Mark Kermode]

And I. Do you know where this is going?

[Jack Howard]

No, but you've just mentioned silent running, right?

[Mark Kermode]

Fine.

[Jack Howard]

I think this is maybe the fourth podcast in a row.

[Mark Kermode]

So I interviewed. Hey, listen, I. You know, something works for me, I stick with it.

[Jack Howard]

We talked about it in a previous podcast.

[Mark Kermode]

That certainly was a line by John Candy and Splash.

[Jack Howard]

So, you know, we love what we love and we're going to keep bringing it up.

[Mark Kermode]

Exactly.

[Jack Howard]

It's amazing that I haven't brought up Christopher Nolan.

[Mark Kermode]

So I was. Well done. You just did. I was interviewing Doug Trumbull and I was talking about the things in silent running that don't make sense. And I would say, for me, it never mattered, because silent running works emotionally. And I said to Doug, I said, you know, the really interesting thing is that one of the things that people say is that the film doesn't make any sense. That this botanist, this incredible botanist, this person who lives for botany, who live. Lives for plants, lives for trees, lives for all the rest of it, doesn't realize that the problem, the reason the plants are dying is there is no sunlight. Right? And he literally sits there with books and microscopes and stuff and all the rest of it. And then just at the very end, he goes, the sun. And I said. And then I realized that the whole point about it is he doesn't realize because he's been driven mad. And Doug Trumbull went, oh, yeah. All right.

[Jack Howard]

My favorite thing is filmmakers putting things out, audiences interpreting it, and then the filmmaker being like, yeah, if you want.

[Mark Kermode]

All right, fine.

[Jack Howard]

It's the. It's the amazing Banksy thing. Have you heard that before?

[Simon Mayo]

No.

[Jack Howard]

That some. The Banksy was at a. At something in an audience secretly, and somebody overheard somebody being like, it's really clever because, you know, rat is an anagram of art. And Banksy was like, guess it is like, overheard.

[Mark Kermode]

It was.

[Jack Howard]

Oh, yeah. But, yeah, I. I think that it is. So. I mean, I remember that very famous one of you sitting with lynch and you being like, it's this, isn't it? And him going, no. So I. I mean, the beautiful thing about any of this stuff is that Spielberg has made this movie for himself and, and to express something for himself and put it out into, into the world. And you and I are going to see it very differently from the next person. Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

And I would encourage people to go and see it because it's.

[Jack Howard]

Oh, please go.

[Mark Kermode]

You know, I, and on that we are completely, you know, together because I

[Jack Howard]

have a feeling that it's not going to do very well. I don't know why.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, by the time people are watching this, they will know. So how did it do?

[Jack Howard]

Let us know in the comments below.

[Mark Kermode]

And what should people do if they've enjoyed this video?

[Jack Howard]

You know, I think you can take it.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so you need to, like, you need to subscribe, you need to leave a comment, you need to tell all your friends how fabulous it was and generally just, you know, let us know. And if you didn't like it, keep that to yourself. Yeah, that's right.

[Jack Howard]

The Internet does. And if you want more, let me do this, but I'll see if I can get, if I can get it. And if you want more Mark Kerr Mode, you can check out Kermit Ameo's take every week. Wherever you get your podcasts, it's like

[Mark Kermode]

you've done it before.

[Acast Announcer]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's the show that we recommend.

[Brooke Devard]

Hello, hello, it's Brooke Devard from Naked Beauty. Join me each week for unfiltered discussion about beauty trends, self care, journeys, wellness tips and the products we absolutely love and cannot get enough of. If you are a skincare obsessive and you spend 20 plus minutes on your skincare routine, this podcast is for you. Or if you're a newbie at the beginning of your skincare journey, you'll love this podcast as well. Because we go so much deeper than beauty. I talk to incredible and inspiring people from across industries about their relationship with beauty. You'll also hear from skincare experts. We break down lots of myths in the beauty industry. If this sounds like your thing, search for Naked Beauty on your podcast app and listen along. I hope you'll join us.

[Simon Mayo]

Hello, this is Simon Mayo.

[Mark Kermode]

And this is Mark kermode.

[Simon Mayo]

He's the UK's best and most trusted film critic.

[Mark Kermode]

He's a best selling writer, broadcaster and national treasure.

[Simon Mayo]

Far too kind. Kermod and Mayo's Take has all the reviews you need and star guests such

[Mark Kermode]

as Sir Ian McKellen.

[Simon Mayo]

Nice to be with you, Emma Stone.

[Acast Announcer]

That sounds like something I would love

[Mark Kermode]

to be a part of Ewan McGregor.

[Simon Mayo]

I'm very good.

[Acast Announcer]

How are you doing?

[Simon Mayo]

Kate Planchet.

[Mark Kermode]

What was that word you used?

[Monday.com Ad Voice]

Catty Wampus.

[Simon Mayo]

Comedimes. Take all the film you need. Available wherever you get your podcasts.