Great Soundtrack, Shame About the Film

Summary

Kermode on Film: “Great Soundtrack, Shame About the Film”

Release Date: August 11, 2026
Host: Mark Kermode
Co-host/Guest: Emma (filmmaker)
Location: Recorded live at Latitude Festival

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Episode Overview

In this lively episode, Mark Kermode and filmmaker Emma dive deep into the world of film soundtracks—celebrating their power, idiosyncrasies, and occasional independence from the movies they accompany. Anchored by Mark’s new book “Surround Sound: The Stories of Movie Music,” the conversation weaves through tales of composer-director collaborations, personal ways of consuming soundtracks, and the curious phenomenon of magnificent music attached to underwhelming films.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genesis of Mark’s Book & The Aim of Accessibility

• [02:13] Mark shares that his book, co-written with Jenny Nelson, aims to demystify film music for readers without a technical background:
  • “We were trying to write a book about film music that was accessible to anybody who didn’t understand music...I cannot read music.” (Mark Kermode, 02:54)
• They emphasize the collaborative communication between composers and directors—some musically literate, many not.
  • “One of the composers said to us that the director once said, ‘I need it to be more purple.’ Okay, more purple. Right. I can sort that.” (Mark Kermode, 03:36)

2. Collecting & Consuming Soundtracks

• [04:03] Mark reminisces about his vinyl collection; Emma admits most modern listeners build Spotify playlists.
• Mark lobbies for the supremacy of physical media for those who truly love music:
  • “If you actually love something and you want to, you should have a physical copy.” (Mark Kermode, 04:49)

3. The Composer-Director Language

• [06:52] Emma details her collaborative process with composer Benjamin Squires, specifically on her short film “The Second Time Around.” Rather than using abstract directions, she communicates through storytelling.
  • “I told him the story before I’d written the script…when I took a break, I just got a message from Ben saying, ‘I’ve got a surprise for you.’ And it was a suite of music based on the story.” (Emma, 07:10)
• They discuss the timing of musical cues, with Emma using the example of “Wicked”—not letting music get ahead of narrative emotion.

4. Famous Composer/Director Collaborations

• Christopher Nolan & Hans Zimmer:
  • “He didn’t say, it’s about space…he said, I’ve got a story about a father and a son…Zimmer then gave Nolan the piece. Nolan listened to it, went, ‘Well, I’ve got to make the film now, haven’t I?’” (Mark Kermode, 08:49)
• Johnny Greenwood & Paul Thomas Anderson:
  • Johnny would sometimes write thematic pieces and let PTA fit them where needed; sometimes the first assembly would be “wall-to-wall” with music, then trimmed back. (09:30)

5. The Film Score as an Independent Art Form

• [15:16 & 15:51] The hosts consider examples where a soundtrack exceeds the film’s quality or impact.
  • Emma: “I really like Hans Zimmer’s theme for Man of Steel…but I hate Man of Steel.” (Emma, 16:19)
  • Mark: “Man of Steel is a perfect example of…great trailer, shame the film exists.” (Mark Kermode, 17:00 )
  • Discussion on how some soundtracks (e.g., “Cannibal Holocaust,” “Exorcist II: The Heretic,” “S. Darko”) create unintended expectations or even have more value than the films themselves.

6. The Use & Reuse of Music in Movies and Trailers

• Mark highlights the recycling of notable music cues across movie trailers (e.g., “Jennifer 8” soundtrack showing up in many trailers).
• Emma gives an example: “Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy” trailer using Danny Elfman’s “The Wolfman” score. (Emma, 17:38)

7. Music that Steals the Show or Defines the Film

• The Jaws Theme:
  • “The music is literally telling the story because the pictures aren’t there…I need you to give me a shark. And John Williams goes…‘duh, duh.’ Spielberg goes, ‘Yeah, no, but what have you actually got?’” (Mark Kermode, 13:27)
• E.T. and Composer Freedom:
  • Spielberg let John Williams compose freely and then re-cut the film to Williams’ operatic finale, exemplifying complete director trust in a composer.

8. The Power of Music to Signal Genre and Emotion

• Mark and Emma observe how horror films use music to telegraph mood, sometimes subverting visuals to wrong-foot audiences.
  • “Sometimes it’s just one element that’s telling you that something’s wrong or something’s different or…this genre or that genre.” (Mark Kermode, 31:30)

9. Technical Musings: Why Certain Music “Feels Off”

• Mark dissects the signature eeriness of “Tubular Bells” (The Exorcist) and its odd 15/8 time signature:
  • “When you listen to it, it sounds like 16/8, but it isn’t…it’s got a beat missing…and it’s that little beat that makes it…” (Mark Kermode, 26:40)

10. Musings on Craft & Perseverance (Advice Segment)

• [32:24] Mark’s advice to aspiring critics or filmmakers: persevere.
  • “If you don’t [give up], the moment will arrive…if it’s really what you want to do, just keep going…and in the end it will happen because everyone else will simply fall.” (Mark Kermode, 32:24–33:24)
  • Emma echoes with, “If you want to do it, you just will…you can’t not do it.” (Emma, 34:04)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I wrote this book, ‘Surround Sound: The Stories of Movie Music’…it’s about film soundtracks. It came out in hardback last year…this year the paperback is out.” (Mark Kermode, 02:19)
• “A director once said, ‘Whatever you do, no bassoons!’” (Mark Kermode, 03:45)
• “The trailer had the soundtrack for Lord of the Rings over it.” (Emma on Man of Steel, 17:14)
• “Cannibal Holocaust is a horrible film…but the soundtrack is absolutely enchanting.” (Mark Kermode, 19:24)
• “When you listen to [Tubular Bells], it creates a really funny feeling…there’s something off.” (Emma, 26:16)
• “The genius is that [film music] works when you don’t realize it’s doing it.” (Mark Kermode, 29:12)
• “If at first you don’t succeed…give up, stop making a schmuck of yourself. The Simpsons.” (Mark Kermode, 34:22–34:34)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:00 – Introduction of Mark’s book, theme of the episode
• 04:40 – Personal soundtrack consumption (Spotify vs. physical media)
• 06:47 – Emma’s composing process and communication with Benjamin Squires
• 08:39 – Hans Zimmer’s “Interstellar” process with Christopher Nolan
• 10:27 – Johnny Greenwood on scoring with PTA
• 12:22 – Story of John Williams scoring E.T., music dictating edit
• 15:51 – Soundtracks better than the films (Man of Steel, Cannibal Holocaust, S. Darko, Exorcist II)
• 20:35 – The separation of soundtrack and film; soundtracks as inspiration for other projects
• 22:25 – Describing Psycho’s shower scene score; story of Bernard Herrmann and Hitchcock
• 25:57 – The oddness of Tubular Bells’ time signature
• 29:10 – How unnoticed technical choices create audience effects
• 32:24 – Mark’s advice to aspiring critics and creators

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Episode Tone & Style

The episode is spirited, humorous, and insightful, marked by Mark’s characteristic wit, extensive industry anecdotes, and Emma’s practical filmmaking perspective. The conversation flows naturally, with the hosts sharing personal experiences, playful banter, and respect for each other's craft. They demystify technical aspects without “talking down” to the listener.

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Final Remarks

Mark’s “Surround Sound: The Stories of Movie Music” is now out in paperback. The hosts encourage listeners to buy from independent bookstores and remind them that loving film (and its music) often means finding art that transcends its context.

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For listeners or readers longing for more on film music’s curious, powerful relationship to cinema—and to us—this episode is a rich, approachable, and engaging listen.

Transcript

[Hayden]

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

[Stephen]

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.

[Hayden]

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.

[Stephen]

That's right.

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[Mark Kermode]

Hey.

[Stephen]

So each week, you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

[Hayden]

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler Al. He'll be wrong.

[Stephen]

News flash, I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy Fan fellows wherever you get your podcasts.

[Mark Kermode]

Hi, this is Mark Comeau. Thanks for downloading this co ed on Film podcast or indeed watching us on YouTube. For once, I am not at the Sun Pub in London's glittering West End. Jack Howard, where are we?

[Emma]

We are at Latitude. We are at Latitude Festival where there are lots of bugs flying around. So if you are listening. I mean, that's what that was. I was wafting away something. If you are listening to this podcast, they be some, like, background interference, but I think we're pretty clear the whole way through. We're talking about soundtracks this week, film

[Mark Kermode]

soundtracks, because my book is out. And also, I should say you're not exaggerating. They have mosquitoes the size of mesmit here.

[Emma]

So sit back, relax, enjoy, and act like you're at the festival with us, but you're just not quite in the conversation. You're sort of over there. I just want to acknowledge, first of all that we record these a little bit in advance. So right now there might be a Spider man movie out for you, but for us, we haven't had a chance to see that yet, so we. We will eventually.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, I'm seeing it on Tuesday.

[Emma]

Oh, good for you.

[Mark Kermode]

And today is Saturday. You can see it on Tuesday as well. It's a national press show.

[Emma]

I don't always get invited to those. Mark, I'm not special like you.

[Mark Kermode]

I can sort you out.

[Emma]

You can? All right, well, on the next podcast, we'll discover whether or not Mark took me out.

[Mark Kermode]

All right. No, seriously, I can sort you out for that.

[Emma]

I would love that.

[Mark Kermode]

All right, fine.

[Emma]

All right, well, let's see how it goes.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, thanks for watching this podcast, but

[Emma]

today, well, a little birdie tells me that you have a book Coming out. Well, your book is being re released in paperback.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, the paperback of my book is coming out, Jack. And it was a little birdie. You told you it was me.

[Emma]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

So I wrote this book, Surround Sound the Stories of Movie Music. And it's about film soundtracks. It came out in hardback last year on September 11, a day we Wait,

[Emma]

A new thing to remember on that day.

[Mark Kermode]

But this year the paperback is out and it's literally out just now in the beginning of August. They pulled the release date forward. I'm not entirely sure why, but yes. So we thought we would do this about film soundtracks, since I've been immersed in them for such a long time and I know that you have certain thoughts about them. So shall I. Do you want to start on me?

[Emma]

No, please, take it away.

[Mark Kermode]

So the thing that I was trying to do, me and my co author, Jenny Nelson, who wrote the book together, she was my producer at Scala Radio, we were trying to write a book about film music that was accessible to anybody who didn't understand music as. I don't. I mean, I am technically a musician. I was the musical director of a BBC television program, but I cannot read music.

[Emma]

Yeah. I also don't feel like I have any musical talent whatsoever. I can barely keep time.

[Mark Kermode]

But you do know music that you like when you hear it and you know how to talk about liking it. And that was exactly what we were trying to do with the book was that there was nothing in it that was like, okay, I can't understand this because it's, you know, it's musical language. And actually one of the things that we did talk about was the way in which composers who are obviously completely immersed in that stuff, talk to filmmakers who often aren't. So a composer has to develop a language with the director. I mean, some directors like Paul Verhoeven are incredibly musically literate. A lot of. A lot of directors aren't. I mean, but one of the composers said to us that the director once said, I need it to be more purple. Okay, more purple. Right. I can sort that. He says, another. Another one director said, now whatever you do, no bassoons.

[Emma]

You know, it should.

[Mark Kermode]

Because an idea in their head. So anyway, so it was meant to be sort of very readable. And one of the things that we got interested in was how it is that people listen to soundtracks sometimes away from the films themselves. So I've got quite a big vinyl soundtrack collection because I started collecting soundtracks when I was a kid. Most people now on their Spotify have got like, A Spotify playlist of soundtracks. Richard, who's filming this, showed me yesterday Spotify playlist of his soundtracks. It's, you know, hundreds and hundreds of tracks. And I just wondered how it is that you consume film music. Is it, is it only through films or is it through CDs and through the, through the playlist.

[Emma]

CDs. CDs.

[Mark Kermode]

Does nobody do that anymore? No.

[Emma]

And not really, no.

[Mark Kermode]

Anyway, you should do though, because physical

[Emma]

media, Physical media is king. It's.

[Mark Kermode]

It's better also, it's not going to have you have somebody turning it off. And if you actually love something and you want to, you should have a physical copy.

[Emma]

You will own nothing and you will be happy. So I love film music. I actually think that in a, you know, when everyone does their Spotify wrapped at the end of the year, it's like their most listened to. Like, it's always like the biggest pop songs or whatever. Or like, oh, I'm. I'm still so into Blink182 after all these years. I'm still like listening to them all the time. Mine is always, always Ludwig Goransson and Hans Zimmer and like, it's always that kind of stuff. And I, I, for those who don't know, I feel like we have to tell people we're getting new listeners and viewers all the time. The concept of this entire show is that I'm a filmmaker, Mark is a film critic, and we're coming at film from a very, very different angle. I work all the time with a composer called Benjamin Squires, who is a genius. I don't understand how he does what he does. His, his, his day job is that he is a film trailer composer. So he did the trailers for Wicked for Good. He did the trailer for one of the Spider man movies. He did some of the Poppins trailers from when Emily Blunt was. He's prolific. And he's the guy in Barnsley. Like, it's just like some. He's like, yeah, I make, I make movie trailers music. He's just like some dude in Barnsley who's making some amazing music and he makes all the music for my stuff.

[Mark Kermode]

Does he make that music at home electronically?

[Emma]

Yes. He makes it all like that. Yes, in the sort of way that everyone uses stems now, which is actually very regular now. Like, I think a lot of the Game of Thrones music is made like that way. And I know Lorne Balfe uses a lot of like stems in his. Is in his music composing. But yeah, Ben and I, he recently did do his first ever Live orchestra thing for a job he did for a cruise, which I think was very special for him, to be able to finally hear his music played by musicians live. But the reason I bring it up is because I have a way of talking to him about music that I've never said. Like, more purple.

[Mark Kermode]

But what do you say? What? Well, like, for example, in the case of your short film.

[Emma]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

How did you discuss it with him?

[Emma]

Well, what was wonderful about that is that I told him the story of the second time around, which is available on Channel 4 for anyone who's listening or watching.

[Mark Kermode]

Very good. Everybody should see it.

[Emma]

Thank you, Mark. I told him the story over the phone before I'd written the script.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Emma]

And then one day I was actually doing a rehearsal with two actresses to try and deepen the story even more. I was just giving them the concept and seeing what they could do. And when I took a break from that, when we were on lunch or something, I just got a message from Ben saying, I've got a surprise for you. And it was a suite of music based on the story that. And so I then had that when I was writing the script.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Emma]

Which is a really wonderful thing to have, like, this simultaneous thing. So it feels like it's kind of ingrained in the story. But the one thing I did, I remember one of the notes I gave him towards what is the crescendo of. Of the narrative. The music was ahead of the story. I said to him. It was actually, I think, something I stole from how John Chew, the director of Wicked, spoke to the composer on that. There was a moment in the first Wicked where it feels like Alpha was about to go to. To the city without Glinda.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Emma]

And he was like, I'm going to score this. Like, they're saying goodbye and she's not going to get on the train because I don't know she's not going to get on the train. And I said to Ben, you're scoring this. Like, you know that she's getting on the train. So, like, I. That you're ahead of. You don't know this big line is about to be said. The music is acting like it knows that this big line is coming. And I need you to wait for the moment that the line is said, for the music to react the way the audience do with that big. I want that moment of the music reacting to the line, not. Not leading to the line.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know the story about Chris Nolan and the. The theme from Interstellar?

[Emma]

Yeah. About him saying that he, he wanted it to be on an organ. And he gave Hans Zimmer just a one page thing about. I think it was about a father and a son.

[Mark Kermode]

A father and a son. Yeah, exactly. So he said, I'm doing a thing. He didn't say, it's, it's, it's about space. He didn't say any of that stuff. He said, I've got a story about a father and a son. As it was at that point, can you write me the, you know, something for it? And Hans Zimmer went away and wrote something for it. And the story is that Hans Zimmer then gave Chris Nolan the piece. Chris Nolan listened to, it went, well, I've got to make the film now, haven't I? But that idea about working with a composer by giving them the themes, not even giving them the script form, but giving them the themes and saying, work with that and then getting a suite of music together is actually one that was mirrored by a lot of people we spoke to when we did the book. We spoke to about 45 composers, arrangers, orchestrators, recording artists. And one of the people that I interviewed was Johnny Greenwood. And Johnny Greenwood said that the way that he liked to work with Paul Thomas Anderson was that he, he liked to have thematic pieces. And he said in an ideal world, what he would do is write a whole bunch of music and say that you, you put it where you want. And I was asking him about how he did the score for There Will Be Blood. And he said, well, at that point, my entire thing was literally to do with close up or wide. It was like, this is the sound of a wide shot and this is the sound of a close up, he said, and as it, as it would go on, he'd have a back and forth with Paul Thomas Anderson. And he said the very first assembly that he got of There Will Be Blood, he said his music was all over everything. Like, absolutely. Like, he said you could barely hear anything at all other than his music. He said, he just slapped it on and, and he said, well, you could, you know, you have to start taking it out. And he said the other thing.

[Emma]

Too much of my work.

[Mark Kermode]

Too much of my work in it. Yeah. And of course, the, the other person who said a similar thing was Mika Levy. It's not an interview with me, but Mika Levy. They had said that the music that they had written for Zone of Interest, they wrote much more. And then when they saw the. They said, okay, no, it has to come out. You can have the piece at the beginning. The piece at the end. But the rest of it has to come out because what it's doing is it's creating a level of artifice.

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But.

[Mark Kermode]

But the other thing that Johnny Greenwood said was that when he was working with Paul Thomas Anderson, that Paul Thomas Anderson just finds his own movies funny. And he said. And he just laughs all the way through. So he said you'd be sitting there watching an assembly of the film, he said, and it's wall to wall his music and Paul Thomas Anderson laugh. But it's a. It's. They've had an amazing relationship, of course.

[Emma]

Yeah. I think the. The thing you just said about like, I'll make the music and then you put it wherever you want. When I saw a screening of. You were Never really here.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, yeah.

[Emma]

Ramsey film, which is a great film.

[Mark Kermode]

It is.

[Emma]

It was my favorite film of that year, actually. Really underrated, actually. The soundtrack for that is fantastic. And I think she said the same thing that like, Johnny would just make stuff.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Emma]

And then send it to me and then I would put it wherever it worked.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. And then. But then it's interesting because obviously, traditionally, the way that a filmmaker would work with a composer would be much more that the filmmaker would make the film and the film would be locked and the composer would then compose two. The locked image. I mean, obviously things have changed a lot now. Firstly because films are locked a lot later, because of digital editing, you can keep changing. I mean, there was a whole thing about. When they were recording the score for the Lord of the Rings movies, they'd record them here in London. And by the time they'd recorded a cue, Peter Jackson on the other side of the world had re edited the scene and it didn't fit anymore. And so the music editor is going out of their mind trying to make the thing fit.

[Emma]

I think there was a similar thing with Steven Spielberg in E.T. at the end of E.T. the.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, no, no. Yes. Okay, this is great. So go ahead.

[Emma]

Oh, yeah, the end of E.T. johnny. John Williams. I was about to call him Johnny the way that Steven Spielberg calls him Johnny.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, that was what he used to be called when he started out as a jazz musician. He was Johnny Williams.

[Stephen]

Right, right.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Emma]

Which makes more sense if you're a jazz musician, you are Johnny Williams. So, yeah, at the end of the sort of the final moments of E.T. that amazing operatic moment, John Williams couldn't make the music fit to the picture. And eventually Spielberg turned the picture off and was like, you compose it how you think is right. And then I will fit it to your music.

[Mark Kermode]

And there are. There are a few kind of famous cases of that happening, of the music actually in the end, taking precedent and the director cutting around them. And that is, I think, one of the. One of the great. It's always used as an example of how symbiotic the relationship between Spielberg and Williams is because, of course, it's an amazing relationship. I mean, it's, you know, it spans absolutely decades.

[Emma]

You can't actually imagine anything that Spielberg's done without John Williams's score matching to it. Like, you don't see those images without hearing that music.

[Mark Kermode]

And you know, of course, that everybody does the famous story about when, when Spielberg was making Jaws, they couldn't make the shark work and there's no footage of the shark and it's not working. And he shows the assembly to John Williams and says, I need you to give me a shark. And John Williams goes, okay, fine. And he goes off and he comes back and John Williams walks him over to the piano and he goes, what have you got? And John Williams goes, duh, duh. Spielberg goes, yeah, no, but what have you actually caught? And then he has to sort of start explaining, yeah, no, if we do it with the cellos and the bass, it'll all sound a lot better.

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

But again,

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[Mark Kermode]

Then that thing about in the case of Jaws, the music is literally telling the story because the pictures aren't there. And I mean, I love Jaws. I think Jaws would not have been a better movie if there was more shark in it.

[Emma]

Well, that's obvious, isn't it? Because now we have the technology to show more shark. And, you know, whether it's a dinosaur or an alien or whatever it might be, by seeing more of it doesn't always make the movie better. In fact, it makes it worse. And it's the same. It's the same trick that he did with Jurassic park as well. Like by hiding it for a lot of the time, that it's so much more powerful in the audience's mind, and then that can be. Even that can be exacerbated by music.

[Mark Kermode]

Yep. Now, let me ask you this. Do you, when you listen to film soundtracks, always just think of the film that the soundtracks are for?

[Emma]

No, I. I think that there is. This might take us onto a conversation about bad film. Great soundtrack.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, go on.

[Emma]

Because, I mean, I also feel like I've got eras of soundtracks that I'll listen to. Be like, oh, my God, I used to listen to this all the time. Like, the Social Network soundtrack was. Yeah, you love Social Network, and I love that movie. But that soundtrack was. You know, I put that on when writing essays in uni and all that kind of stuff. And then the Drive soundtrack was that as well. I loved that for that era. I love the Interstellar soundtrack. I really like Hans Zimmer's theme for man of Steel. Oh, yeah, but I hate man of Steel.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Emma]

I hate that film. But that and to follow John Williams as Superman, and they've kind of given up now. They've just gone back to his Superman theme, which is fair enough. But for Hans Zimmer to come in and try and do. How do I make you sound like. How does it make. It's called Flight. The track is called Flight. So to make you feel like you're flying when listening to music and to compete with something that is maybe the most iconic piece of music in cinema is a. Is a feat. And I think he did really, really well. And I think it is a. It is soaring that. That music to listen to.

[Mark Kermode]

No. Man of Steel is a perfect example of. I mean, we were just talking about this before we started of great trailer. It's just a shame the film exists because the trailer was like, you go, this looks really good. I think he's actually cracked it. And then you go, oh, no, no, he hasn't.

[Emma]

The trailer had the soundtrack for the Lord of the Rings over it.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, did it had Lord of the

[Emma]

Rings music underneath it? Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

There's that thing about recycling music from Other films, there's a score for Jennifer 8, which is a film which almost nobody has seen. But the Jennifer 8 score turned up in every film trailer for like, for years afterwards. It became kind of the default thing that you would slap all over trailers. It's like temp tracks as well.

[Emma]

Yeah. I recently just did a noir project for a commercial project that I don't think I'm allowed to mention what it is yet. I don't know when this is out, but we were looking, me and my composer at references for that and we found that the Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy trailer, which is a great trailer, uses Danny Elfman score from The Wolfman from 2010. And because I listened to, I was like, this is a great trailer soundtrack. And he was like, this is not a trailer. This is Danny Elfman from a movie that no one saw. So that recycling into, from a horror into like noir, like really smart.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, Jennifer A is a, you know, serial killer movie. So it's just like, what on earth is this? And it just happened to be a really, really, a really lovely piece of music. There's also the example of if you have a soundtrack that is really great and the film itself is a stink. We used to do this on the, on Scala show. We used to like every, every year we do a, you know, great, great soundtrack. Shame about the film. The best suggestion that we ever got was have you ever seen S Darko, the sequel to Donnie Darko?

[Emma]

No, I haven'.

[Mark Kermode]

But you haven't because you're a self respecting human being. And we know that nobody involved in Donny, I mean Richard Kelly in particular, did not want S Darko to exist. It's just that the film company owned the rights to it. An abomination of a film. The score for that film is really good.

[Emma]

Is it really?

[Mark Kermode]

And it's. You put the album on and you go, this must be a great film. There's some really interesting themes in this. This is really, really good. And I was talking to Richard, who's filming this just yesterday, and he was showing me his playlist of all the tunes that he likes. I said, oh, have a listen to this. What do you think this is? He said, I don't know. It's a late 70s, early 80s. Yeah, well done, well done. You know, sounds nice, sounds interesting. What a Cannibal Holocaust. And the Cannibal Holocaust soundtrack is absolutely fantastic. If you don't know that it's Cannibal Holocaust.

[Emma]

Right.

[Mark Kermode]

Cannibal Holocaust is a horrible film. I mean, it's an important film, but it is one of the most horrible films ever made. But the soundtrack is absolutely enchanting. And there is a weird. It's like the Ennio Morricone soundtrack for Exorcist to the Heretic, which is the worst film ever made. There's a documentary coming out about it called Baldwin and the Devil, which is a very, very good doc. But the soundtrack is amazing because Morricone just kind of went crazy, go nuts, and said, you know, and he made this amazing soundtrack. So there are incredible soundtracks. Sometimes it's the case that you can listen to a soundtrack and you can imagine a film that either doesn't exist if you haven't actually seen the film. Most people, I imagine, who've listened to the S. Darko soundtrack have never seen the film because no one's seen the film. Or you imagine a version of the film that you saw that was better. And then you go and see the film again. You go, oh, yeah, no, it's actually not very good. That's. That is a real weird disappointment, getting a. Getting a soundtrack that you play and you really, really love it. And you think, oh, God, I must see the film. Then you see the film. It's like, oh, yeah. It's actually not very good, is it?

[Emma]

It's a shame to do that. And yet it's also a beautiful thing to be able to kind of like, have this separation of, like this. This work can live on its own.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, exactly.

[Emma]

And I can build something new with it in my head, and I often will, especially when writing a project like build soundtracks, build playlists for that project.

[Mark Kermode]

But do you use them as temp tracks or. It's just mood boards.

[Emma]

Mood boardy. It's like, you play that and it puts you into the zone of. I mean, did you listen to soundtracks when you were writing the book about soundtracks?

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, all the time. In fact, one of the things Jenny and I did was. So when we. The way that we structured the book was we said, okay, we want it to have a kind of history to it, but we don't want it to be a historical tome. And we don't want to just retread the, you know, the corn. Goldsteiner Williams, you know, like that. We want to tread an alternative path through it. And so we had a certain amount of sort of built in history. Then we also had these individual chapters which were deep dives into individual scores. So. Ako Shibashi score for Drive My Car. Vangelis's score for Blade Runner.

[Emma]

Amazing.

[Mark Kermode]

You know, just individual. I did Twin Peaks, Fire Walk With Me, the Angelo Bad Lamenti, which of course I absolutely love. And that was really a big part of why that film finally got accepted. Because obviously when it first came out, everyone hated it. And then the score people loved and then people went back to the movie and rediscovered it. And the proudest moments of my life was that Angelo Bad Lamenti asked me to write the sleeve notes for the vinyl of it, which I did. And I'm really, really proud of that. But when we were writing each piece about a particular piece of music, we would listen to the piece of music while we were writing it. So that. Because it's quite hard to describe a piece of music. I mean, that's one of the things about music is music. It's not words. But sometimes if you just listening to it over and over again, a phrase will come to mind that tells you, you know, why it is. I mean, it's like if people say, describe the music from the shower scene from Psycho for me.

[Emma]

Sure. Without. Without doing an impression of the music.

[Mark Kermode]

Go in words, tell me what it sounds like.

[Emma]

It is sharp and biting and it's got. Sharp is the word that comes. Keeps coming to mind. Sharp. That's all I can think of.

[Mark Kermode]

So usually what people say when they

[Emma]

high pitched, the screeching.

[Mark Kermode]

Screeching, right. That's the word which is most generally turned to when people say, you know, the screeching or the stabby or, you know. Exactly. Sharp. It's. It's all variations on that word. Right. But when you listen to that piece of music, there's a lot more going on in it than just. I mean, everyone knows. But then there's the deep sort of bass coming in afterwards. Precisely. And of course, famously, when that scene was first done, Hitchcock didn't want it to have any music at all. And he had said to Herman, this scene is going to be silent, no music. And Herman went, okay. But then Herman watched it. And Herman did indeed write a cue for it. And then Hitchcock was cutting the scene and obviously he cut it exactly as it had been storyboarded. If you look at the Saul Bass storyboards, that scene is cut the way it's planned. He didn't, you know, he didn't shoot coverage. He shot the scene as it was and it wasn't working and he couldn't figure out why. And then Herman said, well, I've got something.

[Emma]

And Hitchcock just been waiting for his turn.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. And Hitchcock went, all right, show me. And Herman did. And Hitchcock loved it. He went, fantastic, fantastic. There's Definitely going in the film. And Herman then said, but Mr. Hitchcock, you said that the scene was to be silent. And Hitchcock said, improper suggestion, dear boy, improper suggestion. Because the thing was, he knew that he'd been found out. But if you try and describe it, people would. They will use the same word. Stabby, shrieky, you know, screechy, all that stuff. That's the words you can put. If you listen to the piece, you start to hear other things going on. So one good example for me is. And it's not a piece of music that was written specifically for a film. It's a needle drop. The use of tubular bells in the Exorcist is really interesting, okay, because it's. It's thought of as the theme from the Exorcist, but it's barely in the film, okay? There are tiny little moments when it appears. It appears when Chris is walking home from the movie set. It appears when we see Reagan on a monitor in a hospital. It appears at the end of the film. It's very, very sparsely used. And I remember asking Billy how he came about, how he came across the music. He said it was on a white label. He was just going through white labels looking for something. And he wanted to find, like, a childish theme, something that would sound like Reagan's theme. And I think that he might at that point have seen Don't look now, which has got the Pinot d', nagio, Which sounds like a child learning to play the piano. And that's.

[Emma]

Yeah, right.

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[Mark Kermode]

done. Anyway, so he heard Jubilees. Did not know what it was, didn't listen to the rest of the album, didn't have all the, you know, the. The and Tubular Bells, none of that stuff. And he thought it's great and it really works because there's something odd about it. And I was trying to figure out what it was that's odd about that piece, why it is that when you hear it, yes, it's childish and chiming, but there's something wrong.

[Emma]

It creates, like, a really funny feeling. Yes, there's something. It's not clearly a horror soundtrack, but there's something off.

[Mark Kermode]

And there we are. And the thing is, there is. And do you know what the off is?

[Emma]

Please tell me.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so this is kind of annoying. I've been listening to Tubular Bells.

[Emma]

Nothing is off, and yet I've been

[Mark Kermode]

listening to it for ages, trying to figure out what off, Right? And here's what's off. Tubular bells is in 15, eight, okay? Which means it's a bar of eight and a bar of seven, or a bar of seven or a bar of eight, depending on where you divide it. It doesn't matter. It's a sequence of 15, right. Usually musical sequences. 2, 4, 8, 16. Like that. Or 3, 6, 9, you know, that's how you break them down. So triplets, fine. There's a threes and five, four is a bit odd. Five four is the one, everyone. Oh, five four is odd because it's got a skip beat in it. But it's okay. We can all deal with it, because everybody knows. Take five. 1, 2, 3, 4. Okay, you can do it, right? You can do 5, 4. But it's slightly wrong. 15, 8. When you listen to sounds like 16, 8, but it isn't. It's got a beat missing. And if you try and count Tubular Bells, and I, believe me, I know this because I have done this many times. If you try and count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 50, it's really, really, really hard to count what I really like about this. Hang on, hang on. No, please. There's a punchline to this, right? So I'm a genius. I figured out why this piece works, and I figured out why it works for the Exorcist. And I have literally done this on my own by sitting down, writing the book, listening, decipher the Zodiac letters. And then I just happened to Google Mike oldfield, tubular bells, 15 8. And I come across an interview in The Telegraph from 15 years ago in which he says exactly the thing that I have wasted a day of my life doing it to the world. He said, yeah, it works because it's in 15, 8. I mean, you think it's 16 8, but it hasn't. It's got a skip beat missing. And it's that little beat that makes it thing anything. And I was like, damn you, Michael Field.

[Emma]

I love this because I. When you're explaining about, like, the beats and 15, eight and all, that means absolute zilch to me. Like, that. That's doing nothing in my brain. I don't know what that means. I don't know what it means compared to other accounts. Like, I don't know.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Emma]

In the same way that if I could explain why I've made technical decisions in filmmaking to somebody and that's why that creates that feeling in you.

[Hayden]

Ye.

[Emma]

They might be like, but I don't know that. So why would. But there's something about, like, making technical choices like that, that no. Knowing that human beings are going to hear that or see that or experience that and go, well, that feels this way. And they don't know why.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Emma]

That's amazing.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Emma]

I love that that is possible.

[Mark Kermode]

And the genius is that it works when you don't realize that it's doing it. And that's. And that's the thing about, like, cracking the code. You know, something is doing something to you, but you can't quite see why. It's like nobody saw ET and went, well, the genius of ET Is it's all shot from a child's eye.

[Emma]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

But the minute somebody points it out to you, you go,

[Emma]

yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

You know, And I think it's the. It is the same with the. With the time signature and with it we say the kind of. The technical decisions about what lens you would use or whatever, which I don't understand at all. But, you know, you're looking at something and you're going, well, I'll give you.

[Emma]

I'll give you an example, like, for the second time around, because we've been talking about it. The music side, I completely trusted Ben, and I had, like, the tiniest little notes. And I also. I already had his themes. But when it came to, like, taking that story and putting it onto screen, it took me a long time to figure out what visual language it should be, even though I knew in my gut the whole time. Because what I'd written at the beginning was, an old woman arrives at the window in the rain and you can hear thunder. That's horror imagery. And so I was like, oh, you know, not to spoil my own film, but the film is kind of a bit of a sweet, sad drama. But I don't want anyone to know that when the film starts. So I was like, well, if I go the other way, I can use these, like, really big, wide lenses, lots of shadow, lots of, like, horror imagery, and convince you that you're in a different. Even if you don't think you're in a horror, you'll feel that something is off. What is this? What is the purpose of this visit? And just because I've used these big, wide lenses, I know that your eyes are going to start going to the corners and wondering what's in the shadows. Anything pop out of there, even though nothing does, it's creating that kind of anxiety the entire time.

[Mark Kermode]

When we did the Secrets of Cinema on horror cinema, which I wrote with Kim Newman, who's a genius, and Kim wrote this section, which is really good, which is the beginning of Suspiria, which is basically somebody arriving at an airport and getting in a taxi. And Kim said, the only thing that's telling you that it's a horror movie is the score. So, literally, if you rescue. And you know, people do this thing.

[Emma]

Yes, they do.

[Mark Kermode]

Shining.

[Emma]

Yeah. You know, taking as a ROM com.

[Mark Kermode]

As a rom com. Exactly. Hey, Danny. Hey, dad. You know all that stuff.

[Emma]

I saw someone recently do a poster for the Odyssey as if it's like a mid 2000s Rom com.

[Mark Kermode]

But it is funny how sometimes it's just one element that's telling you that something's wrong or something's different or something's in this genre or in that genre. And I really like the idea of wrong footing the audience. But the tubular bells thing was just for about two seconds, thought I was a genius.

[Emma]

Yeah, you thought.

[Mark Kermode]

And then I realized I'm gonna win

[Emma]

a prize for this.

[Mark Kermode]

All right, well, look, to draw this to a close, the book is out of paperback. You know, please do read it if you can. We've had really nice. The best review book I've ever written. Oh, well done. Yeah, thank you. And I was so nervous about it. I was writing it for 10 years, and 70 of those years, I just couldn't get anything done. And then I started writing it with Jenny, and Jenny was really the key to it working.

[Emma]

Well, is there something to say there to people who. I'm sure there are people who listen to this podcast or watch this who think that doing their thing isn't worthwhile or no one's gonna care. Have you got any. Any advice on that? Kind of.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, I. You know, I do think that it's that thing about perseverance. Somebody. I read an interview with a. With an Empire journalist recently, and they said that they had. Had. That they had met Me quite early on in their career and they had asked me for. For some advice which I have no memory of giving them at all. But I don't doubt that what they're saying is true. It's clearly it stuck with them. And they said, look, I want to be a film. Just what was it? And I said, well, the only thing you have to know is you have to have patience and you have to just keep doing it because there are a lot of people who are trying to do what you want to do. But what will happen is as time goes by, they will fall by the wayside. And if you don't, you. The moment will arrive. And I remember having this conversation once with somebody. They said, how did you become a film critic? I said, well, I've never met anyone who really wanted to be a film critic who didn't become a film critic. What I have met is loads of people who thought they wanted to be a film critic and then after doing it for two years, realized that they didn't want to do it. Got it. Because there's a. There's just a level of. Particularly now when it's almost impossible to earn a living at the beginning. So my advice would be if, if it's really what you want to do, just keep going and have patience and you know, all that stuff. And in the end it will happen because everyone else will simply fall. And I'm glad said I'm really glad that's the case. I'm glad that it's a profession which, which kind of chews people up because it means that if you actually get to be doing it properly, it's because you just didn't give up on it. And I, like I said, I've never yet met anyone who. You have to a modicum of talent. You have to be able to, you know, construct whole sentences. Filmmaking.

[Emma]

Well, that is the exact same advice I would. I mean, I. I feel like I'm in no position to give anybody advice because I feel like I'm still asking for the advice. But it feels true already that if you want to do it, you just will. And actually you'll find a way to make it. Even if it's not like you say, earning you money at the start, you can't not do it.

[Mark Kermode]

No, exactly, exactly. I'm always reminded of the thing that I was told at school, which is, if at first you don't succeed, give up, stop making a schmuck of yourself. It's the Simpsons.

[Emma]

Quite. It's Homer saying to Barbara, well, Bart, you Tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is never try.

[Mark Kermode]

The other one is it's the worst day of my life. No, the worst day of your life so far.

[Emma]

That's from the movie.

[Mark Kermode]

Maybe one of the best jokes from the movie.

[Emma]

All right, thank you so much for listening, everybody.

[Mark Kermode]

Thank you.

[Emma]

Mark, your book is called.

[Mark Kermode]

My book is called Surround Sound. Mark Hermit, Surround Sound, the stories of Movie Music. And it's in paperback. And all good bookstores. All good bookstores. And actually, if you're gonna buy it and you can buy it from a bookstore, please do, rather than getting it online from some hideous online giant that don't pay taxes and are a bunch of. Yeah, anyway, so, yes, if you can buy it from a bookstore, preferably an independent. I feel like I'm really narrowing this down.

[Emma]

I think it's not. It's not subtle.

[Mark Kermode]

No, no. Buy my book from an independent bookstore in Cornwall. Okay, fine. Otherwise you're dead to me. I don't want you.

[Emma]

And if you're watching this on YouTube, please like the video. Subscribe to the channel. If you're listening to the podcast, you can leave us a review, as long as it's nice. And if you want more Mark Cuomo

[Mark Kermode]

talking about movies, it's Comeo de Mayo's take. Available wherever you get your podcasts.

[Emma]

Bye.

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[Mark Kermode]

Hello, this is Simon Mayo. And this is Mark kermode. He's the UK's best and most trusted film critic. He's a best selling writer, broadcaster, and national treasure.

[Emma]

Far too kind.

[Hayden]

Kermode.

[Mark Kermode]

Mayo's take has all the reviews you need and star guests such as Sir Ian McKellen. Nice to be with you, Emma Stone.

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[Mark Kermode]

Ewan McGregor.

[Emma]

I'm very good.

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How are you doing?

[Mark Kermode]

Kate Planchette. What was that word you used?

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[Mark Kermode]

Kerma de Mayo's take. All the film you need, available wherever you get your podcasts.