Is Project Hail Mary THAT good? (spoilers: yes)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Kermode on Film — Is Project Hail Mary THAT good? (spoilers: yes)

Date: March 31, 2026
Host: Mark Kermode
Co-host: Jack
Main Theme: A deep dive into Phil Lord and Chris Miller’s Project Hail Mary starring Ryan Gosling, exploring the film’s impact, themes of loneliness and friendship, and comparing it to classics like Silent Running and The Martian.

---

Episode Overview

Mark Kermode and his co-host Jack meet at The Sun Pub in London (even before opening hours) to discuss Project Hail Mary, the new big-screen adaptation of Andy Weir’s novel, directed by Phil Lord and Chris Miller. The duo explores the film’s plot, emotional resonance, technical execution, and where it stands in the legacy of modern science fiction cinema. Spoilers are discussed, but the ending is avoided.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Going in Blind (01:04–02:35)

• Both Mark and Jack attended the film with minimal prior knowledge; Mark hadn’t read the book and only knew Ryan Gosling starred.
• Mark: "Honestly, it is one of those moments when you think being a film critic is the best job in the world because you can walk into a massive screening of something ... And two and a half hours later, ... I thought, I haven’t had that much fun in the cinema in a really long time." (02:17)

2. The Plot Rundown (03:03–05:12)

• Directed by Lord and Miller (of 21 Jump Street and Spider-Verse fame), this is their return to live-action after being replaced on Solo.
• Ryan Gosling plays a teacher-scientist drafted to solve a cosmic crisis involving dying stars. Due to “plot contrivances,” he’s the sole survivor on his ship.
• The real heart: his relationship with Rocky, a rock-like alien also trying to save his planet.

3. Thematic Depth: Loneliness, Friendship & Unlikely Bonds (05:12–07:37; 16:33–19:59)

• Both planets' survival depends on the cooperation of two loners.
• Jack: "At the beginning ... I was like, ah, we’re doing unlikely friendships. ... When you meet Rocky, I just immediately was like, oh, this is the most charming thing I’ve ever seen in my entire life." (06:26)
• Mark: "Charming is literally the word ... particularly at the moment, with everything that is going on in the world. A big charming blockbuster is worth its weight in gold." (07:11)
• Parallels drawn to Silent Running — another film about isolation and companionship in the void of space.

4. Visuals, Tone, and Cinematography (06:00–06:26; 18:26–18:29)

• The film is shot by Greig Fraser (Dune, The Batman), bringing gravitas and warmth to the visuals.
• Balances serious sci-fi spectacle with heart, humor, and a friendly tone, described as "not super duper serious" but inherently warm and charming.

5. Comparisons: Silent Running, Arrival, The Martian (07:37–13:09; 27:08–29:14)

• Project Hail Mary’s focus is on the emotional journey, not scientific realism — a trait shared with Silent Running.
• Mark (on Silent Running): "It makes no sense at all... but that’s not what it’s about. It’s about this lonely character finding friendship with these drones." (09:39)
• The film’s speed in establishing alien communication (versus Arrival’s painstaking process) is a running joke.
• Both hosts agree: strict realism can be sidelined for emotional truth.

6. Performance Highlights (13:59–16:13; 25:16–26:34)

• Ryan Gosling’s blend of comedic and dramatic timing is lauded.
• Memorable scene: a translating machine using Meryl Streep’s voice for the alien, a result of Lord and Miller’s playful creativity.
• Sandra Hüller’s supporting role is highlighted for her “brittle” yet ultimately soft and complex character, compared to Rocky for her “otherness”.

7. Broader Messages: Cooperation and Cultural Resonance (19:42–22:14)

• Jack: "Two characters from completely different backgrounds ... working together to make something better happen."
• Passing on knowledge across cultures is seen as a timely and positive message for today’s divided world.
• The political resonance and optimistic message are highlighted as necessary in an age of sociopolitical regression.

8. The Science—Does It Matter? (10:35–13:09; 28:43–29:14)

• A brief mention of a conversation with physicist Brian Cox: the science is "pretty good, yeah, that’s fine." (12:34)
• Both agree that the film’s science is secondary to its narrative and emotional goals.
• They compare the film's approach to communication (quickly glossed over) to Arrival’s methodical process, preferring HF the former’s focus on character and feeling.

9. Comparisons to The Martian (27:08–28:43)

• Similarities: protagonist alone in space, forced to problem-solve and survive.
• Jack: "There’s a link ... but I think Project Hail Mary was more my cup of tea ... I liked the warm, charming thing of him making friends with this space rock alien." (27:50)

10. Gosling’s Sci-Fi Journey and Star Wars Fatigue (30:30–34:45)

• Discussion about Gosling’s other roles in space films (e.g., First Man).
• Both express indifference to news about Gosling joining Star Wars, citing franchise fatigue and lack of originality.

11. Audience Response and Cultural Impact (34:51–35:12)

• The film plays to full houses, hinting at a hunger for heartfelt, non-IP-driven blockbusters.
• Both hope more original-feeling science fiction stories succeed at the box office.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Mark:

• "Charming is literally the word ... a big charming blockbuster is worth its weight in gold." (07:11)
• "I just sat there watching, thinking it looks great because obviously Silent Running looked great. I love Ryan Gosling’s performance ... he has got that similar kind of [energy]." (13:32)
• "The least important thing about Project Hail Mary, although I love this about as well, is that it’s a science fiction film that takes place millions of miles away from Earth... it’s a film about loneliness and friendship." (16:33)

Jack:

• "Phil Lord and Chris Miller are the best at doing ... unlikely friendship." (17:07)
• "It’s so nice to see somebody do a huge, sweeping, proper sci fi looking movie ... but it’s like this warm, charming movie. It’s not super duper serious." (18:26)
• "Totally. And it’s something—we’ve talked about this before—but the MCU version, the Tom Holland version of Spider man took three movies to realize, oh, we need to isolate him." (17:31)

Mark (on broader themes):

• "It is a story about ... cooperation, about different cultures working together, about seeing the thing in the alien that is actually the same as you." (20:10)
• "The reason I love [sci-fi films] so much is that I think they can explore our human experiences in a way that feels more truthful than if you didn’t have the sci fi ... If you did it in a grounded way, it might not feel as truthful." (32:29)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------| | 01:04 | Introduction: minimal knowledge, first impressions | | 03:03 | Plot setup and Lord & Miller’s background | | 05:12 | Loneliness and friendship as central themes | | 07:11 | "Charming" nature of the film | | 09:39 | Silent Running parallels and irrelevance of logic | | 13:59 | Praise for Gosling and supporting performances | | 16:33 | Broader messaging: loneliness, friendship, cooperation| | 18:26 | Tone: warmth vs. seriousness | | 25:16 | Sandra Hüller’s role | | 27:08 | Comparing The Martian and Project Hail Mary | | 28:43 | Science vs. emotional truth; Arrival comparison | | 32:29 | Sci-fi’s power to express truth | | 34:51 | Audience reception and importance of originality |

---

Conclusion

Project Hail Mary is championed by both Mark and Jack as a rare, large-scale blockbuster that wears its heart on its sleeve. Its themes of unlikely friendship, loneliness, and cross-cultural cooperation are described as timely, necessary, and deeply affecting, all while being visually spectacular and deeply charming. The hosts commend the performances, direction, and tone, suggesting it stands out in the modern science fiction canon—worthy of comparison to classics, but with a distinctive warmth and optimism that feels especially poignant now.

Final word from Mark:
“I hope you go and see Project Hail Mary if you haven’t done already. I think we both agree.” (34:45)

Jack:
“Nice to see a movie like that, pulling in an audience, and that feels really good.” (35:12)

---

This summary captures all substantive discussion, skips all advertisements, and reflects the spirit and language of the hosts throughout.

Transcript

[Brooke Devard]

Hello.

Hello, it's Brooke Devard from Naked Beauty. Join me each week for unfiltered discussion about beauty trends, self care journeys, wellness tips, and the products we absolutely love and cannot get enough of. If you are a skincare obsessive and you spend 20 plus minutes on your skincare routine, this podcast is for you. Or if you're a newbie at the beginning of your skincare journey, you'll love this podcast as well. Because we go so much deeper than beauty. I talk to incredible and inspiring people from across industries about their relationship with beauty. You'll also hear from skin care experts. We break down lots of myths in the beauty industry. If this sounds like your thing, search for naked beauty on your podcast app and listen along. I hope you'll join us.

[Mark Kermode]

Hi, this is Mark Kermode. Thanks for this Kermode on Film podcast or if you're watching on our YouTube channel. Welcome to the Sun Pub in the heart of London's glittering West End. We love coming here, not least because they allow us to.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

The.

[Mark Kermode]

They allow us to. Even when the pub is closed. Because we're recording this conversation now. The pub is not even open. Jack, what are we talking about today?

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Hello, everybody. Today we're gonna be talking about the new Phil Lord and Chris Miller movie Project Hail Mary, starring Ryan Gosling.

[Mark Kermode]

And a rock.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

And a rock. Spoilers. And a rock.

[Mark Kermode]

So, Jack.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yes, Mark.

[Mark Kermode]

Project Hail Mary. Great big science fiction film that I saw in imax. Me too. Me too. Knowing nothing. So you were at that same screening?

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

No, I went and paid for it because I'm not special enough to get invited every single time, like you.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, if you keep working at it, you know, maybe ascend to these lofty heights. So here's the thing. So I hadn't read the book. The book is by the same guy wrote the book of the Martian. And all I knew was that it was two hours, something long. It was at army, started at a certain time because I had to run there from the screening beforehand and Ryan Gosling was in it. So I went in with absolutely no idea what it was. I knew I'd seen a poster, so I knew it was kind of science fiction film.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

But you had no idea that he was meeting an alien friend?

[Mark Kermode]

Nothing at all? I knew nothing other than it was right. Yeah. And honestly, it is one of those moments when you think being a film critic is the best job in the world because you can walk into a massive screening of something like you wouldn't pay 25 quid to see a film. You knew nothing about. But there was I in the IMAX screening. And the thing starts.

[Brooke Devard]

And.

[Mark Kermode]

And two and a half hours later, whatever it was, I thought, I haven't had that much fun in the cinema in a really long time. And I came out of it with a smile on my face and almost literally skipping down the street because I just enjoyed it so much. Now, for anyone who hasn't seen it, give me a thumbnail of the setup.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Okay, so it is the new film by Phil Lord and Chris Miller, who are. Who are. But they came to prominence directing the 21 Jump street reboots. They also directed the pilot of Brooklyn Nine Nine. So they kind of, from a comedy background, and they in more recent years wrote and produced the Spider Verse franchise. And this is their first live action film, I think, since being fired from Han Solo.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow. I think I've actually forgotten. Yeah.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

What a weird little story that is. And they brought in Ron Howard to just be. Steer the ship, get us over the line. These guys are taking too long improvising. So Phil Lord and Chris Mil, and it's Ryan Gosling, who is a teacher, but he is a very smart scientist and he's hired by the government to help save the world. Basically, there are these new. I don't know how to explain this. There's like this new bacteria.

[Mark Kermode]

There is a thing. There is a thing happening out in space. There's a thing in which. In which stars are dying and the stars are dying because some thing is eating them, eating them alive. And down on Earth, they realize that the next star that's on the horizon for this to happen to is. Is the sun. So they have to figure out how they're going to stop this happening. They're gonna have to send up, you know, a space probe. And they need astronauts who are well versed in all this stuff. He is not an astronaut. He is an astronaut. He is a teacher. But due to a plot contrivance, he ends up being sent into space. And due to a second plot contrivance, he ends up being the only person alive in the spaceship.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

However, the way the film starts is that he's just in space and he doesn't know why.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, exactly. So which. Which. So from my point of view, I didn't even know what genre other than science. I didn't know whether it was going to be, you know, horrific science fiction, like alien science fiction or Star wars science fiction, you know, shooty bang bang science fiction, or melancholy science fiction like Silent Running, which actually turns out to be very much in that Mold. So he is on his own. Everyone else has died and it's just him. And he's in the middle of nowhere and he's already figured out that he cannot get back home again. And then he meets an alien life force who he ends up calling Rocky because he looks like a pile of

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

rocks, a rock spider.

[Mark Kermode]

And then the whole of the rest of the film is basically his relationship with this rock creature that obviously cannot speak English because in space, contrary to what you might have learned in Star wars, they don't speak English. They have to learn how to communicate. And then he has to save the world and save the universe and all the rest of it.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

And they're doing it together because Rocky's planet is also in danger, so dying.

[Mark Kermode]

But it's really a story about friendship.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Unlikely friendship. Yeah. And I. What I was really, really enjoying about it at the beginning because I knew about the alien. I knew it was about that.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm so glad I didn't.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

I know. So jealous. And I think that there have been people who have read the book, have said avoid the trailer because it gives it away. Because of course they have to. How else are they selling the movie otherwise? It is even the post, Ryan Gosling in space.

[Mark Kermode]

The poster has Ryan Gosling in space with Rocky in the ball.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Right, okay.

[Mark Kermode]

So it's literally like, oh, there we go. Yeah.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

So I'm so glad you didn't know that. And I'm very interested hear about your experience watching it, especially because you didn't know what kind of sci fi it was. But yeah, it's. It's such a fantastic combination I think of because it's also shot by Greg Fraser, who shot the Dune films. He shot the Batman.

[Mark Kermode]

He shot the Dune films. Jack. He didn't shoot the Dune films films. You're not in America.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Which one is it?

[Mark Kermode]

Dune.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Not Dune.

[Mark Kermode]

No, Dune is like, you know, the American. That's what they say at the beginning of the. David lynch. And it was the Iraqis, or as we call it, Dune. You know, it's Dune.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Fraser shot the Dune film.

[Mark Kermode]

Thank you.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

He shot the Batman. Am I saying that right?

[Mark Kermode]

The Batman.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

And so I would say he is maybe one of the most celebrated cinematographers that's currently working. And then there's Philadelphia and Chris Miller, who are fantastic at comedic friendships. And he's shot it beautifully and they've got the dynamic down brilliantly. It almost feels like you handle that and we'll handle this. Um, and I think that right at the beginning when it was showing you Ryan Gosling's character called Grace, being brought into this new government sector. He makes friends quite quickly with like a security guard. And even then I was like, ah, we're doing unlikely friendships. Like, the whole thing is like lacing in the sort of the theme of that. And then, then when you meet Rocky, I just immediately was like, oh, this is the most charming thing I've ever seen in my entire life.

[Mark Kermode]

Charming. So charming is literally the word that it rings around my head when I think of it. It is charming, I think, particularly at the moment, with everything that is going on in the world. A big charming blockbuster is worth its weight in gold. And this is why. And I'll make this comparison now. You've seen Silent Running, right? I've never seen Silent.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

I haven't seen Silent Running. Every time you bring it up, I feel scared to mention it.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, well, no, it's fine because you do need to see it.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

But I want to see it in the cinema, though.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. I mean, in an ideal world. But let me.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Maybe the Prince Charles will be playing at some point.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm sure the Prince Charles play it quite regularly because it is one of those cult movies. So the setup of Silent Running is this. The Earth is despoiled, right? And the last remaining forests of the Earth have been put into geodesic domes and sent out into space until a reforestation plan can happen. And there are these huge, big sort of cargo ships with these geodesic domes strapped onto them that got the last of the Earth's forests. And at the beginning of the film, Bruce Dern is on one of them, the Valley Forge. And he has this dream of starting the forestation project back on Earth. But at the very beginning of the film, they get the word from the company, no, sorry, we're not interested. We need the ships back to do commercial stuff. So just blow the forests up and come back. And Bruce Dern says, you can't blow the forests up. They're the last forest. You can't do this. They're not replaceable. And his crewmates go, yeah, it doesn't matter, which is fine. This is what we're going to do. So this all happens very, very early on in the film is that Bruce Dern kills his other crewmates and he is then on his own. And he basically gets the Valley Forge with the last of the Earth's forest to go out into space heading towards Saturn, and he has no companions. And then there are these little robots called drones that you see walking around just doing drone like work and he reprograms them to have personalities to play cards with him, to be able to interact with him. They don't talk. They don't have faces. They are just bipedal two legs. That's it. And they become these incredibly expressive characters. So the whole film is Bruce Dern on his own with these little walking robots that don't speak and don't have faces. And it is. It's incredibly moving. Now, two things are important about it. The first one is it makes no sense at all. Okay. If the Earth's got no forests, so it's just dead. Right. Number one. Number two, why do they have to blow the forests up? Just put them into orbit and just leave them. Why you have to blow them up doesn't make any sense. Number three, the spaceship has gravity in it, and yet there's never anything about gravity. It's out in space. And I remember I interviewed Doug Trumbull about this because I was a huge fan of the film. I said to him, you know the bit when. When Bruce Dern is walking on the surface of the. Of the spaceship? There's gravity. But he went on, I mean, was it never? And he said, no. He said, I did consider putting in a line, which was, you know, let's turn on the gravity field, but I just couldn't be bothered because it's not important. So his whole attitude to it was, that's not what it's about.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yeah. And I really, really like it when I always like saying, do you want the film or not?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Do you want to be in this story or do you not want to watch it? Because if you can't. If you can't just suspend your disbelief for a second and not be picking holes and stuff, then you might just go and do smells.

[Mark Kermode]

And bear in mind that Doug Trumbull had, as I said in our previous podcast, he had spent the previous years doing special effects for Stanley Kubrick on 2001, in which everything had to be accurate to the. You know, even the toilet in space had to be accurate. And what Brewster just want to break.

[Brooke Devard]

I know.

[Mark Kermode]

And what Doug Trumbull said to me was, that's not what it's about. It's not about that. It is about this lonely character finding friendship with these drones. Now, two things about that. The first one is the drones are not animatronic. The drones are amputee actors performing the drones. Oh, wow. And their performances are brilliant because it's tiny physical gestures, tiny physical movements. And Doug Trumbull was inspired by having seen Freaks And Johnny Eck in Freaks, you know, walking on his hands and being incredibly agile and really sort of balletic and beautiful. And that was what inspired Doug Trumbull to create the drones around that. And the second thing is that Bruce Dern's performance, and I love Bruce Dern, I absolutely love him. But it has that fantastic thing about his character, is the most sympathetic character imaginable. But, you know, from the very beginning that he killed.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yeah, right.

[Mark Kermode]

Crewmates for this to happen. And I, I love that about the film. And what I really like about the way that project Hail Mary works is it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I mean, I. When I was doing the interview with Ryan Gosling, I interviewed for Kermode Mayo's take, available wherever you get your podcasts. And in the anteroom holding room beforehand, I was there with Brian Cox, you know, not Brian Cox, Hannibal Lecter, but all the world is amazing. Brian Cox.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Not. Fuck off, Brian Cox.

[Mark Kermode]

But no, come in, have a go to Brian Cox. And I said to him, just incidentally, what's the physics of it? Like, what's the science of it? Like? He said, it's actually pretty good. Yeah, that's fine. But one of the things that happens in it is they develop a way of learning to communicate using a laptop. So he has to figure out the language.

[Brooke Devard]

Traffic may be locked, but savings isn't. Unlock the savings at Boost Mobile with unlimited wireless for just $25 a month. Forever. No contracts, no H, and you keep your phone. Unlock the [e-mail]. unlock $25 forever requires customers to remain active on Boost Unlimited wireless plan. For full offer details, visit boostmobile.com could

[Workday AI Advertiser]

AI help you do more of what you love? Workday is the AI platform for HR and finance that actually knows your business. We help you handle the have to dos so you can focus on the can't wait to do's. It's a new workday

[Mark Kermode]

and then in almost next to no time, they're. They're.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yeah, it's like they've taken the entire plot of Arrival. They've taken the entire plot of Arrival and distilled into like 10 seconds to

[Mark Kermode]

the point that they actually stop using the laptop. By the end of it, they're just talking to it, but it doesn't matter. And the reason, the thing I loved about it was, okay, if you're worrying about that the film's not working because the film is not about that. The film is about this loneliness and friendship. And I just sat there watching, thinking it looks great because obviously Silent Running looked great. I love Ryan Gosling's performance because he has got that similar kind of.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

He's. He's unlike any other actor working.

[Mark Kermode]

So he's like Bruce Dern.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

I think he's like Bruce working today.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. Yeah.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

That can do the dramatic and the comedic.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

And he, like, we've. We've been seeing him in the most, you know, the past few years, Barbie, for example, doing, like, out and out comedy performances. But he used to be like Half Nelson and Drive and like, very kind of stoic Blade Runner 2049. Like, stoic serious performances. And here I think it's the perfect combination of his dramatic abilities and his perfect comedic timing. No one can scream like Ryan Gosling. No, he's got a very funny scream, but also there's.

[Mark Kermode]

There's a lovely scene in it in which he's recording a video diary. And they basically. He's figured out how he can get Rocky to be in his. Because Rocky's in a different atmosphere, and so they can't be in each other's atmospheres. And they're only communicating through this translating machine. And there's a joke about which voice they use for the translating machine. And there's a Meryl Streep.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Fantastic Meryl Streamer.

[Mark Kermode]

And it is Meryl Streep's voice, I imagine.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

So it is.

[Mark Kermode]

No, it is, because she's credited at the end of it.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

She can do anything.

[Mark Kermode]

She can do anything.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

And you know that that was just like them on set being like, let's get it, and maybe she'll do it.

[Mark Kermode]

But there's this. As soon as Rocky comes into his space, he immediately starts to feel that his space has been intruded on, that he can't. And he's whispering to the camera, saying, it's, you know, he's just here all the time. And I can hear you because Rocky's got incredibly good hearing. And it really reminded me there's a.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yes, I can.

[Mark Kermode]

It really reminded me of this scene in Silent Running when Bruce Dern's character has taught the drones to play cards. Okay. And so he sits down and he's got this backpack of cards, and there's one drone there holding his cards and another drone there holding the cards. And Bruce Dern, he's looking at his cards, and then the drones start signaling to each other, and one of them does that. And he's doing exactly the same thing, but reacting. And it's. I just think that thing about loneliness and friendship, and I. I'm sure that this is if you are somebody who has experienced loneliness and that desperate desire to make friends with things that aren't human. You know, like if you had an imaginary friend or if you had an Action man or if you had a. An animal. Literally the least important thing about Project Hail Mary, although I love this about as well, is that it's a science fiction film that takes place millions of miles away from Earth. Because it, it doesn't. It's a film.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

It only takes place a million miles away from Earth in the, in the depths of space. So that it can be a story about this.

[Mark Kermode]

And I saw an interview with the directors in which they said this lovely thing, you've probably seen this. It's a film which asks the question, can men have friends? And the answer is yes, but only if the future of humanity is at stake.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Really lovely, because I think you told Ryan Gosling about that and he said that's such a fill.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah. So tell me what you love about it.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Well, I just to jump on what you're saying. I totally agree and I do very much love the dynamic and I think that Phil Lord and Chris Miller are the best at doing like that unlikely friendship.

[Mark Kermode]

So you think that's their kind of over.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

I think that's their shtick. Yeah. 21 Jump street through to this. I think that like you know, even, even the Spider Verse films is like unlikely. Miles is alone and then unlikely people from different universes teach him about who he really is.

[Mark Kermode]

And Spider man is absolutely a film about loneliness. Absolute. The Spider man stories, not just film, the whole Spider man creation is a creation about loneliness.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Totally. And it's something. We've talked about this before, but the MCU version, the Tom Holland version of Spider man took three movies to realize, oh, we need to isolate him. Like we need to put him on his own. So yeah, I think that Phil Lord and Chris Miller's whole thing is, is they're really great at that dynamic between friends. And I just, I just thought that taking Ryan Gosling, putting him with, with a creature like that is maybe the most genius thing you could have done because it was so nice to see not a comedy, not a drama, but like it's not like there's such a, like a Guardians of the Galaxy kind of vibe to it. But God is the Galaxy is silly and it's a comedy.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

And it's so nice.

[Mark Kermode]

More broad comedy.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yeah, yeah. And it's so nice to see somebody do a huge, sweeping, proper sci fi looking movie. Like a serious looking Sci Fi, because

[Mark Kermode]

it looks great in imax.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Looks amazing.

[Mark Kermode]

It looks amazing.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

And yet it's like this warm, charming movie. It's not super duper serious. And actually the people that are super duper serious are also very funny. Like, Sandra Huller's character is so funny, and she's actually a bit like Rocky. I think that they. There's an element of Rocky and Sandra Holler's character that's like a little bit autistic. There's like. I don't quite get this human. Like, you know.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Like the bit when he's like, is it. Does it not matter if I die? No, you have to talk about. Would be preferable if you didn't die.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

The consensus is it would be preferable if you didn't die. And, like, it's all a little bit like. And even that's like talking through glass. Like, we're not in the. You know, it's. I think even visually, they've kind of got that stuff down really, really, like, they've. They're setting the seeds really, really well of, like, how people are communicating and how they're different from each other. But then overall, like, I think the loneliness thing is. Is great, but it's also about again, in today's world. Two characters from completely different backgrounds speak completely different languages, working together to make something better happen. And the film ends with him being a teacher. Well, we're going to spoil it for people. Like, we can spoil it.

[Mark Kermode]

No, don't spoil the ending. Because I think at the moment, people could have gone, okay, I think don't.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Okay, we won't spo. Okay, but, like, there's literally like a whole thing about passing on.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, exactly.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Your findings to a different culture. And it's. That, I think, is a fantastic message.

[Mark Kermode]

And don't you think that at this particular moment in time. I'm not saying that this was contrived or designed like this because obviously, in the way that movies happen, I mean, Ryan Gosling got the novel when it was in galley form.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yeah. Crazy.

[Mark Kermode]

He was working on it for a number of years, trying to get it together. He's one of the driving forces in all of this, is not just the star. He's the kind of the person who's made this project happen. So the world is a very different place now to what it was when he started doing it. But it is a story about, you know, hands across the ocean, about cooperation, about different cultures working together, about seeing the thing in the alien that is actually the same as you and I know, I know people only make everything political, but. But it is. There is something really good about a movie this big, this spectacular, this starry, you know, big a list star having that at its heart. That it's not about going out into space and blowing stuff up.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

And I. I recently also watched what is known here as Zootropolis 2.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Zootopia in America. Yeah, same thing, same thing, same thing.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

It's the exact same message. It's the exact same message about different cultures coming together and. And learning that we're not actually so different, actually. Which seems really weird that. That seems poignant at the moment. Yeah, it seems sad that that has to be a poignant message in a film. But it's where we are. It's the truth. Like where we are at the moment is. We're so awfully divided in a time where I remember being a kid and when gay marriage was. Was legalized and there's all campaign around that. And I remember thinking as a kid, huh, how come that wasn't a thing until now? And that. That it felt like things were moving forward constantly. And I just assumed that linear behavior would. Would continue.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

And now I've. Obviously I'm 34 and it feels like we've taken several steps back. And it's really strange to have lived in a world where at a time when I was growing up, the world seemed to be growing up. And now I feel like, oh no, it's. It's all topsy turvy again. It's so sad that we need movies with those kind of messages. But it's also wonderful that they, they are, they exist.

[Mark Kermode]

But if you think about, you know, when Silent Running came out. Silent Running comes out at the beginning of the 70s. People talk about the 70s, the early 70s, about endlessly. The early 70s is the great golden age of Hollywood and using studio techniques, but European filmmaking aesthetics. But back then, that's the time of Nixon and Watergate and Dog end of Vietnam and all those things. There are all these amazingly hopeful movies being made. Incidentally, I'll tell you something about the original end of Silent Running which won't spoil the film for you because this isn't how the film ends nowadays. It's because it is now. Actually ends when it's finished. But in the original version of Silent Running, the Bruce Dern character was slightly more piratical. And he steals the ship and he goes off, you know, on his own adventures. And then gradually this becomes. And actually the whole thing about the geodesic domes, they were Just originally used just to provide a food source. It was just. He didn't want to retire, but he got fired. And then he steals the ship and he goes off anyway. Then it becomes this whole eco thing. And then he repro. At the center of all of it is the reprogramming the drones because he's on his own and he's living with this guilt. So he reprograms the drones so that they become friends. And obviously, the drones are kind of like reflections of his own personality. And at some point in an original version of the script, there is a moment in which there is a photograph taken of Bruce Dern and the drones around him. And one of the drones has this photograph and puts it in a compartment. The end of the film originally was a First Contact story, was that they make contact with an alien life form, but the Bruce Dern character doesn't make contact. The Bruce Dern character dies. It is the drone that makes contact with the Nexus. So the aliens don't encounter a human being, they encounter a robot. And the robot puts its hand into its pocket and shows them a picture of it, of them with a human being. And this. And I. There's something so brilliant about that idea of the alien nature of that culture. They're not even meeting humans. They're meeting. But they imagine from the photograph, because there's a bunch of robots, and then a human is almost like Bruce Dern is like a pet. So it's like the alien culture has met us, but it hasn't even has met the alien. And I. I think that that is a very hard thing to get right. And that isn't how Silent Running ends now. But when I was watching Project Hail Mary, there was bits of it, I thought that has a similar sensibility, because the point about the. The character is he is a loner. He is cut off. He is weird, even when he's on Earth. And I think the reason that the Sandra Hiller casting is so great. I have loved Sandra Hiller since film called Requiem, in which. Which is a possession story. It's a. It's a. It's a story about a young girl who comes to believe that she is possessed. It's actually inspired by the story of Annelise, but I think she is the most amazing actor. Of course, everybody saw her in Anatomy of the Fall being. Being so brilliant.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

And she's an incredible.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

She was in Zone of Interest.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, she's. Yeah, she. I mean, she's.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

She's. She's had a. She had quite a Brilliant year that year.

[Mark Kermode]

She's just amazing.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

She is.

[Mark Kermode]

And it's a fantastic piece of casting because as you say, she's. The scouting reports end Unlock the savings at Boost Mobile. Get Unlimited Wireless for $25 a month forever and keep your phone. It's a veteran move. Unlock the Savings [e-mail] Unlock $25 forever requires customers to remain active on Boost Mobile unlimited wireless plan. For full offer details, visit boostmobile.com could

[Workday AI Advertiser]

AI help you do more of what you love? Workday is the AI platform for HR and finance that actually knows your business. We help you handle the have to dos so you can focus on the can't wait to do's. It's a new workday.

[Mark Kermode]

Kind of brittle and kind of uptight and, and, and it makes sense because she's not warm or empathetic and she's

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

also like, not like she so easily could have been played as the prickly boss like who, who's like, I need it this way. But she's actually quite. She's got a softness to her as well.

[Mark Kermode]

She has, but she doesn't know how to verbalize it.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

Which is why that exchange that you said about, you know, it'd be preferable if you didn't die. Which is funny, but it's also. That is what they mean. It would be preferable if you didn't.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yeah, that she doesn't. She doesn'. Inhuman. Like which I think that character could have easily been played that way as like a villain. Yeah. But she's sympathetic and, but like I said, this is what I mean about like the autism side of it. Like, like it feels like people are on the spectrum that aren't quite. Don't quite know how to communicate with each other. Which then leads us into like the relationship with Rocky. Like it feels like this strange. Like I don't quite know what's the word for this or how do I say this and how do I. This kind of like learning to communicate with somebody who doesn't know how to communicate with you.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

I think that's just a beautiful thing to see.

[Mark Kermode]

Where do you think this stacks up next to the Martian? Now, I haven't read either of the books, but obviously I've seen the films. Do you think there is a genetic link?

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Oh yeah, of course there is. Yeah. I mean it's, it's because he's on,

[Mark Kermode]

he's on a planet alone.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

On a planet alone. Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

I, he is the best scientist on Mars.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

I re. Watched the Martian not too long ago. There Was. I'm trying to write something at the moment that is also person alone. And I was like, I'm interested to sort of rewatch this and see how they handle it. Some of the Martian, for me, doesn't hold up as well as it did when I first saw it because, like, tonally, it seems to jump around a little bit sometimes. And then there is an entire section of the film where Matt Damon's just not in it. Like, it just goes to Earth, to NASA for a bit.

[Mark Kermode]

They try and figure out what to do.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yeah. And it doesn't flip back and forth as much as. As it. As it did in my head. I. I still enjoyed it. I've still very much enjoyed it. It's definitely got the same kind of tone like Matt Damon and Ryan Gosling's characters feel, you know, that kind of snarky kind kind of there. Like, I'm the best at this. Like, I'm the best scientist on Mars or whatever. Like that. That kind of. There's a link there. I think maybe it's recency bias, but I think Project Hail Mary was more my cup of tea in terms of, like, I liked the tone of it more. Like, I like the warm, charming thing of him making friends with this space rock alien. Yeah. And I. I just keep thinking about those. Those gags. And I keep thinking about, like, the moment when, like, he first sees him and he's replicating what he's doing and he gets him to dance, and that's how they say goodbye. And, like, it's. Yeah. I just think all of that stuff is, like, really, really memorable. I think it's gonna.

[Mark Kermode]

And it makes no sense.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Sure. Yeah. Who cares?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, exactly. I mean, this is the point. Who cares? Because it's not about that. Whereas Arrival is about that. I mean, Arrival is about grief, and Arrival is about that very Kurt Vonnegut idea about, if you knew the future, would it change? Or if you knew the future, would you.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Would you do something different?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Would you be able to accept it? But the whole thing about learning to communicate in Arrival is really, you know, step by step by step by step by step, it treats it seriously.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

It's like, no, let's do it for real.

[Mark Kermode]

And in Project Hail Mary, it's just. They need to be able to talk. Yeah. They can talk anyway. You see, I. I like that because I think that a lot of science fiction, you know, everyone always gives Stanley Kubrick plaudits as well. 2001 is very, very convincing. What it would be like. It's what it would be like, yeah, but it's a fantasy, right? It's a. You know, I don't. I don't believe that the only role of science fiction is to portray the future in a way that is credible. I think it's to do. I mean, when I was a kid and I looked out in space, I remember this really clearly when I was a kid. I looked up at the moon when the Apollo moon landings were on, right. So this is 1969. Right. And I remember looking at the moon and thinking, there are men on the moon now. And the thing I was struck by was, that's so far away, that's so lonely. And one of my favorite films is the Ninth Configuration in which one of the central characters in it is an astronaut or who won't go into space. And when he's asked why, and he says, because if there is no God, then dying in space is really alone. And I think that the loneliness of space is one of the most interesting things about it.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

I mean, there's a link obviously to this. Ryan Gosling played Neil Armstrong in First Man. He did where?

[Mark Kermode]

And he played him rather brilliantly.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

And in that there's obviously this kind of invention that happens about what he does on the moon, which I always took as for what it was, which is like them emotionally kind of like trying to take you to where they think that Neil Armstrong might have been grieving the death of a. Of a child and having to do that so privately that it might as well have been on the moon. Yeah, it's a metaphor, everyone. Not everything has to be literal, but it's, it's interesting that you can be

[Mark Kermode]

snarky when you want to.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yeah, it does my edit when people. Because that's the thing, like, you've kind of hit on something that, like, really bothers me sometimes is people going like, well, that doesn't make sense, does it? So do you want to watch the film or not? If you don't go do something else. Like, I think some. Obviously there's a line in terms of like, me going, I'm not buying this at all. But, like, if it's, if it's like, well, they need to talk, so let's get them talking. We need them to talk, so let's get them talking. But yeah, like, it's interesting that Gosling has done that kind of thing before and, and that kind of exploration of loneliness in sci fi. And I, I agree with you that I think what's brilliant about these kind of high concept ideas is that they can all be used for very, very, very different functions to kind of explore something I've said. I said this before about the film I made that. The reason I love them so much is that I think that they can explore our human experiences in a way that feels more truthful than if you didn't have the sci fi or the high concepts part of the narrative involved. If you did it in a grounded way, it might not feel as truthful as it did if you were to have something in space or with time travel or whatever it is. I think that that kind of stuff can resonate because life feels weird sometimes. It does feel more like that, like, like a high concept than it does like a grounded drama sometimes.

[Mark Kermode]

I absolutely agree. And I think that, that, that is the, I mean, I think, you know, David Bowie space oddity has lasted for a reason, because it's about somebody getting stuck up in space and then, you know, and being isolated and then just drifting off. And there's a reason why that character then comes back in Ashes to Ashes later on, having been drifting around in deep space forever. I think there is something deeply, deeply affecting about that idea. Last question. Ryan Gosling, Star Wars. How do we feel about that?

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yeah, I'm kind of off the Star wars train. Have you grown up to be hon? Well, we've talked about this before, but I, I, When I was a kid, my dad took me to see the phantom menace in 1999, thinking, oh, Jack will like this. We'll take him to the cinema. And apparently I don't remember this. My dad tells this story. Halfway through, I go, I've had enough now. So I had good taste even then. I knew the Star wars prequels were bad, and I only got on board with Star wars with the Force Awakens and then the Last Jedi. And then as we've spoken about before, I feel like those movies then betrayed me.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Like, they were just like, nah, actually, it's not for you anymore. And so, like, I see the trailer for, like, I'm, I'm, I'm seeing it in the imax. So they're showing a bunch of IMAX trailers, right? So they show the Mandalorian and Grogu, and I'll go, what is this? Like, what, what are we doing? Like, and then by contrast, the next trailer is for the Odyssey, and I'm like, yeah, that's, that's a movie. What was that before? So Ryan Gosling being in Star Wars, I know exactly what he's gonna do, and I'm gonna probably enjoy seeing his Character, but I don't know if I care. Like, it depends what it, how it looks. But I mean, there's a chance I won't see it.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

I'm not bothered.

[Mark Kermode]

Am I bothered?

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

I'm not.

[Mark Kermode]

Look at this face. Is this the bothered face? Wow.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Mark Kermode]

Star wars thing that you might not see.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't know if I've caught up with many Star wars things recently and.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, you've changed. Yeah.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Well, get used to it. What about you? Are you looking forward to Star Wars? Ryan Gosling?

[Mark Kermode]

No.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

No.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, there we are. I hope you enjoyed that and I hope you go and see Project Hail Mary if you haven't done already. I think we both agree.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Yeah. You know what, I went to the screening yesterday for me and it was full.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

And I was really, really happy to see that because. Yeah, just because I know it's not. It's adapted from a book, so it's not like a truly, like, original movie, but it feels like it's not truly, like, based on like superhero IP or anything like that. So it's nice to see a movie like that, pulling in an audience and that feels really good.

[Mark Kermode]

Excellent. So listen if you've enjoyed this. If you're listening on the podcast, please subscribe to the podcast. If you're watching this on the YouTube channel, what do they do?

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

They smash the like button. Subscribe, tell your friends. And if you would like more Mark Cuomo talking about movies, what do they do?

[Mark Kermode]

You can go to. You can get KE wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening or watching. Acast Powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Brooke Devard]

If you've ever dreamed of quitting your job to take your side hustle full time, listen up. This is Nikayla Matthews, aome, host of side Hustle Pro, a podcast that helps you build and grow from passion project to profitable business. Every week you'll hear from guests just like you who wanted to start a business on the side. If you can't run a side hustle, you can't run a business. They share real tips. And so I started connecting with all these people on LinkedIn and I saw Target supplier diversity was having office hours. Real advice. Procrastination is the easiest form of of resistance and the actual strategies they use to turn their side hustle into their main hustle. Getting back in touch with your tangible cash and sitting down and learning to give your money a job like it changes something Check out side Hustle Pro every week on your favorite podcast app and YouTube.

[Mark Kermode]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com hello, this is Simon Mayo. And this is Mark Kermode.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

He's the UK's best and most trusted film critic.

[Mark Kermode]

He's a best selling writer, broadcaster and national treasure. Far too kind. Kermod and Mayo's Take has all the reviews you need and star guests such as Sir Ian McKellen. Nice to be with you.

[Jack (co-host with Mark Kermode)]

Emma Stone that sounds like something I

[Brooke Devard]

would love to be a part of.

[Mark Kermode]

Ewan McGregor I'm very good. How are you doing? Kate Blanchett what was that word you used? Catty1 Kermoda Mayors take all the film you need. Available wherever you get your podcasts.