Twiggy on Ken Russell, and Kötting's Hallucinated Worlds: What Shapes an Icon?

Summary

Kermode on Film – March 24, 2026

Episode: Twiggy on Ken Russell, and Kötting's Hallucinated Worlds: What Shapes an Icon?

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Episode Overview

This episode, hosted by film critic Mark Kermode and recorded live at the BFI IMAX, is split into two main halves:

1. A deep dive into the hallucinatory and personal filmmaking of Andrew Kötting, touching on his new VR project and ongoing exhibition "EveryWorld."
2. A celebration of the enduring career and cultural impact of Dame Twiggy Lawson, focusing on her transition from model to multi-hyphenate star and her creative partnership with director Ken Russell.

Both interviews are rich with discussion on the creative process, memory, influence, and the making (and sustaining) of iconic status.

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Section 1: Andrew Kötting – Hallucinated Worlds and the Art of Memory

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Introduction to Andrew Kötting and His Work ([03:36]–[04:48])

  • Mark celebrates finally having Andrew on the show after 10 years of trying, highlighting his idiosyncratic and boundary-pushing body of work (e.g., "Gallivant", "This Filthy Earth", "The Whalebone Box").
  • "No one else is making work like him." – Mark Kermode ([03:36])

• VR Experience and the EveryWorld Exhibition ([04:48]–[06:25])

  • Kötting’s VR project, created with his daughter Eden, is described as a "memory hovel"—a virtual exploration of their real farmhouse, assembled using photogrammetry and populated by objects and fragments from previous projects and personal memories.
  • "It's kind of an antidote to swimming with dolphins or walking with dinosaurs." – Andrew Kötting ([04:48])
  • The intensely personal and familial nature of Kötting's work is discussed, embedding real voices (like his late grandmother Gladys) and lived memories.
  • "It's festooned with the ghosts... of various other projects." – Kötting ([06:19])

• Relationship with Daughter Eden and Autobiographical Art ([09:13]–[11:53])

  • Eden, Kötting’s daughter, is central to his creative journey. Their collaboration fundamentally shaped his work and life perspective.
  • "We're conjoined muses, I think." – Andrew Kötting ([11:08])
  • "It’s being a primary carer for someone like Eden that really makes you rethink what’s normal and what isn’t normal." – Kötting ([11:25])

• Philosophy of Memory, ‘Truths’, and Creativity

  • Discusses the theme of memory’s fuzziness, subjectivity of “truth”, and the constant process of cannibalizing older work for new creative ground.
  • "The not knowing is its power. The fact that there is no plot, there’s no beginning, middle or end... it’s a life vivant." – Kötting on "The Colour of Pomegranates" as major inspiration ([12:52])

• Influences and Artistic Identity ([12:52]–[14:16])

  • Kötting selects Sergei Parajanov’s "The Colour of Pomegranates" as his key inspirational text: praising its visual and auditory alchemy, and the sense of narrative ambiguity.
  • When asked to describe himself: "Half wit, shoddiest, postmodern moron? Or as Ian Sinclair described me once as the seaside Herzogian Benny Hill. And I’m happy with that." ([15:22])

• Process, Passion, and the Challenge of Artistic Sustainability ([15:57]–[17:02])

  • Kötting’s films emerge from "alchemy of real life," focusing on happenstance and serendipity rather than a calculated approach. He admits necessity (caring for Eden) has shaped his path away from feature filmmaking.
  • "I'm pulling on that. But I’m looking for the alchemy of real life, pulling on happenstance, pull on serendipity, encounter." ([16:33])

• On VR and the Continuum of His Work ([17:02]–[17:46])

  • VR is a vessel for bringing together decades of art and memory, embracing "time-based media."
  • "I'm barking up the same tree, but every time I bang it or chainsaw bits of it, different fruits are falling down." ([17:46])

• Contemporary Peers and Cannibalizing One’s Own Work ([18:14]–[18:48])

  • Kötting reflects on influences like the late Sean Lock, but acknowledges his work is often a process of endless self-reinvention: "Never interested in full stops, semicolons, commas, open brackets. Fine. And therefore, the work is moving along an axis and it’s never complete." ([18:47])

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Kötting's irreverent humour and self-deprecation ("You've got a very big one, haven't you?"; "the seaside Herzogian Benny Hill") gives warmth and quirkiness to the exchange.
• Mark’s affection and admiration is apparent: "There is no rational reason in the world to make the stuff you make." ([16:17])

Important Timestamps

• [03:36] – Introduction to Andrew Kötting
• [04:48] – Explanation of VR and the exhibition
• [11:08] – The creative partnership with Eden
• [12:52] – On "The Colour of Pomegranates" as influence
• [15:22] – Self-definition and influences
• [17:46] – On the continuum and evolution of his own work

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Section 2: Twiggy – Fame, Impact, and Ken Russell

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Welcome and Documentary Reaction ([23:33]–[24:39])

  • Twiggy discusses the emotional shock of seeing her own life laid out in the documentary "Twiggy," recalling how seeing lost family onscreen made her cry through the first cut.
  • "My mum and dad were up there who aren’t with us anymore... suddenly it’s up on the big screen reminding you." – Twiggy ([24:00])
  • She credits director Sadie Frost for handling her story authentically, owing to Sadie’s own celebrity experience.

• How the Documentary Came About ([24:45]–[26:53])

  • A chance podcast appearance (Sadie on "Tea with Twiggy") led to the idea of the documentary.
  • The mutual ground between Sadie and Twiggy—both models, both actors—helped in shaping the film.

• Cultural Impact and the Bowie Connection ([27:13]–[27:54])

  • Mark recalls the famous "Pinups" cover with Bowie and Twiggy; Twiggy tells the story of hearing about herself in Bowie’s "Drive-In Saturday."
  • "And there’s a line in the chorus where he sings she sighs like Twig the Wonder Kid. And I thought, oh my God, David Bowie sang and mentioned me in a song." ([27:41])

• Inspirational Figure: Ken Russell ([28:06]–[30:54])

  • Twiggy credits Ken Russell with changing her life, introducing her to world cinema and industry possibilities.
  • Their collaboration started with social evenings watching European and classic films, leading eventually to "The Boy Friend," despite initial skepticism from the studio who saw her only as a model.
  • "God bless him, he fought for me for a year and he got me. So he changed my life." – Twiggy ([30:54])

• Performing & Dance: Training after Starting from Scratch

  • On doing tap for "The Boy Friend": "He sent me off to tap class and he sent me off to singing and a few ballet classes. But my ballet teacher said I was the noisiest pupil she’d ever had..." ([34:54])

• Meeting Her Idol Fred Astaire ([35:18]–[37:29])

  • A heartwarming story of how Twiggy, while in L.A. promoting "The Boy Friend," gets to meet Fred Astaire, her idol, for tea, thanks to a serendipitous connection at MGM.
  • "Nobody walks across a room like Fred Astaire. He was so gorgeous." ([36:22])

• On "The Devils" Cameo ([37:53]–[38:27])

  • Brief surprise: Twiggy appeared for eight seconds in Ken Russell’s infamous "The Devils," not having realized she ever saw it.
  • "I never saw it, no. I said to Ken, when they start throwing their clothes off, I’m leaving, because I knew what he was like." ([38:36])

• Life as a Podcast Host & the Nature of Intimacy in Conversation ([38:45]–[41:39])

  • Twiggy describes the origins of her podcast "Tea with Twiggy," created during lockdown as a way to connect and chat informally with friends and celebrities.
  • Both Mark and Twiggy agree on the easy, revealing quality of podcasting: "Often the chat goes in a different direction anyway... I think people, kind of, tell me things they probably wouldn’t tell a journalist." – Twiggy ([40:39])

• Ken Russell’s Legacy and Influence ([41:45]–[43:25])

  • Discussion of how Ken Russell’s work inspired filmmakers including Spielberg, and his difficult later years facing industry neglect.
  • "Ken Russell, when they were young… made them want to be in film and direct. I mean, he inspired so many young directors who became massive." – Twiggy ([43:07])

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "You literally talk to people exactly the same way. You haven’t got any front." – Mark to Twiggy ([40:06])
• On meeting Fred Astaire: "I remember the maid took us into the sitting room and we sat and waited, and the door opened... and he came in and… nobody walks across a room like Fred Astaire." – Twiggy ([36:15])
• On Ken Russell: "He was so knowledgeable about film, about music, about everything. I loved him to bits." – Twiggy ([41:56])

Important Timestamps

• [24:00] – Twiggy discusses seeing her own documentary
• [27:13] – The David Bowie connection
• [28:06] – Ken Russell’s influence and how they met
• [34:50] – On dancing and training for "The Boy Friend"
• [35:18] – Meeting Fred Astaire
• [38:45] – Starting "Tea with Twiggy" podcast
• [41:45] – Ken Russell’s later life, impact, and memory

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Episode Highlights

• The episode is suffused with warmth, wry humour, and affectionate glimpses behind the creative veil.
• Both guests emphasize the importance of personal connection, the role of chance in artistic journeys, and the need for authenticity and passion.
• Mark Kermode’s probing yet genial presence draws out stories about the spaces between art and life, the power of memory, and what it means to become—and remain—an icon.

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Notable Quotes

"There is very little difference between our internal world and the external world. We are all composing our worlds individually from our moment by moment perceptions." – Mark Kermode and Twiggy, in dialogue ([02:38]–[02:51])

"We’re conjoined muses, I think." – Andrew Kötting, on working with his daughter Eden ([11:08])

"The not knowing is its power... you project meaning and significance into what he’s chucking at you." – Kötting, on "The Colour of Pomegranates" ([12:52])

"My mum and dad were up there who aren’t with us anymore... it’s very hard for me to be objective about it, but I think Sadie did a brilliant job of telling the story because that is what happened to me. It shouldn’t have happened, but it did." – Twiggy, on her documentary ([24:00])

"God bless him, he fought for me for a year and he got me. So he changed my life." – Twiggy, on Ken Russell ([30:54])

"Nobody walks across a room like Fred Astaire." – Twiggy ([36:22])

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Conclusion

This episode of Kermode on Film is a poignant exploration of creative legacy—how icons are shaped, sustain themselves, and inspire others. From Andrew Kötting’s deeply personal, experimental visions to Twiggy’s candid reminiscence about fame, resilience, and mentorship, Mark Kermode orchestrates a lively, touching conversation about what truly makes an icon.

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For information on future live MK3D shows and further film conversations, visit the BFI website or subscribe to Kermode and Mayo’s Take.

Transcript

[Mark Kermode]

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[Twiggy]

In every job that must be done, there is an element of fun. You find the fun and sn did you know that the very first assembly of photographs in sequential order to create a motion Picture was a 2 second clip of a black man on a horse?

[Mark Kermode]

We want the finest wines available to humanity. We want them here and we want them now.

[Twiggy]

You really don't want me to play, huh? No, I do. Captain Hardy said no. Captain who?

[Mark Kermode]

Welcome back to Kermit on Film and thanks for downloading this Kermit on Film podcast. I hi, I'm Mark Kermode and this episode is the second half of our March 2026 live show recorded at the BFI IMAX. I'm delighted to talk to filmmaker and artist Andrew Cotting about his Films, his new VR project and the EveryWorld exhibition. And then I'll talk to Dame Twiggy Lawson, who joined me to talk about the documentary Twiggy, which maps her brilliant career from model to film star to pop star to podcast host. So sit back, relax and take a front row seat at MK3D at the BFI IMAX. Enjoy. Now, on the subject of filmmaking heroes, our next guest is someone I have been trying to get on the show for a decade and as you know, the show turned 10, just like, you know, in the last year, this 111th show, whatever it is. So he is an extraordinary filmmaker, although film filmmaker doesn't really cover it in terms of his features that you may have seen. He's made things like Gallivant, which is extraordina this Filthy Earth, which was the very first time that I interviewed him by ourselves again with the great Toby Jones, the Whalebone Box, which I remember trying to write a review of it in the observer and just realizing that words were not going to do it justice. There is currently an exhibition and a VR experience which is happening in Bristol at the Undershed, which is connected to the watershed and we have a trailer for that. Nick, can we show that? Great. Have a look at this.

[Twiggy]

When your daddy was a little girl, we used to fetch a little boy. We used to fetch him down here. 12 species of oil.

[Mark Kermode]

There is very little difference between our internal world and the external world. We are all composing our worlds individually

[Twiggy]

from our moment by moment perceptions.

[Mark Kermode]

Ultimately we're talking about our own vaults. Even the dearest that I love the best are strange, nay, stranger than the rest.

[Twiggy]

Available knowledge, bragwart. The paramour accepts a number of frequent visitors and has a large number of dependents. Don't tell me you've been recording all that.

[Mark Kermode]

No one else is making work like him. Please welcome Andrew Cotting. Andrew, welcome to the show. So it only took.

[Andrew Cotting]

Thank you so much.

[Mark Kermode]

So when you turned up, I should say this, the very first time I ever interviewed Andrew was for this Filthy Earth, which I think I did an introduction for, for BFI Player. She's a great movie. And I was working at Radio 1 and you turned up and you had this massive gash on the side of your head. And I said, what have you done to your head? You went dry Stonewalling my kind of filmmaker. And when you turn up here just now, you turn up with a VR headset, which, I mean, I'm really not technically you adept at all. But part of this, of this exhibition which you've made with Eden, your daughter, is this VR experience. Can you explain what is it? What it is of.

[Andrew Cotting]

Well, first of all, you've got a very big one, haven't you? I'm very impressed with the size of it, which is an old school gag.

[Mark Kermode]

I know. I'm following that, Andrew. Thank you.

[Andrew Cotting]

You've got a big one. It's a VR experience. Some of you in the audience might have experienced VR before, but it's kind of an antidote to swimming with dolphins or walking with dinosaurs. And the house that you saw towards the end of that clip is the Puritan farmhouse that I bought with two brothers and my sister just after I graduated from the Slade. We sold it weirdly on the back of this VR experience. But you enter into this house and when you're in the house, you move through different kind of rooms, which are real rooms. We use a process called photogrammetry. And you experienced it earlier. It's quite kind of realistic.

[Mark Kermode]

It's astonishing. I mean, it is like being in that house. And, you know, you say you look. I mean, I'm sure that many people here have done VR, but it's really, the clarity of it is there's something quite hallucinatory about it.

[Andrew Cotting]

It's a bit of a head flip, well done. It takes you to places where you've not been before. But more importantly, it's kind of like a memory hovel. It's a lot of the Projects that I've been conceived, that I've written, that I've edited have kind of. They have their genesis down there. There's something about being off grid up a dirt track. You need a 4x4 to get up there.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Cotting]

Or a wheelbarrow. Which is how we used to push Eden up when we first bought the place. But there's something about being so far removed from l here kind of in London, which is where we used to live. It was. It's an antidote to that. So the experience is very much a collage or a bric collage of various other projects and ideas that come together including. You just saw a little clip of. We heard a bit of my grandmother Gladys.

[Twiggy]

Oh when your daddy was a little girl. A boy.

[Andrew Cotting]

Which starts the opening sequence from Gallivan.

[Twiggy]

Yeah.

[Andrew Cotting]

And so it's kind of. It's festooned with the ghosts. Ghosts of various other projects. And it's just. That's the thing I like about.

[Mark Kermode]

Can we watch a little bit of Gallivan because obviously that was the thing that made you know. So take a. Take a look at this.

[Twiggy]

Yeah.

[Andrew Cotting]

We're traveling with my daughter Eden and my grandmother who's called Gladys. Any advice you'd like to give them?

[Twiggy]

Don't go out.

[Andrew Cotting]

Don't go out.

[Twiggy]

Stop in them at nighttime. She get mugged. Good looking woman like that. Short, bald headed. Got no air on her legs. Stay here. It goes the boat. Look, the man's in the boat. There's Gary in the boat. Do you know him? Yes. Here he is in the boat at

[Mark Kermode]

the moment the tide is heavy. Out to all to see the tide.

[Twiggy]

I said I wouldn't have thought if he could swim he would have killed himself. Would your thoughts on man threw out yourself over yesterday. You don't. Oh you're not English. No. And we can't understand you. No. Throw yourself over. Over there. Finished him. 25. No, just over the top. He went commit suicide. And the boat's turning around now.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, the place is interesting.

[Twiggy]

Are very fewer parts. I'd just like to point out the

[Mark Kermode]

commentary is on these boats on the

[Twiggy]

river Thames are down on behalf of

[Mark Kermode]

us to cruise to try and make

[Twiggy]

your trip a bit more enjoyable.

[Andrew Cotting]

You can almost count the pixels on that screen. It's. It's quite a joy. And to see Super 8 blown up to this. I'm going to be having nightmares about this.

[Mark Kermode]

How it was intended. One of the things I've always loved about your films is that there was this word that you Used about the VR experience, you said slightly shoddy, and there is. It's this kind of tattoo. You're a very good friend of Mark Jenkin, who made Bates and Ennis Main and now Rose of Nevada. And there is a tactile quality to you. It's like the process is part of it, isn't it? You can feel that they're handmade.

[Andrew Cotting]

Yeah. There's something about the physicality or materiality, but also maybe all the earlier work that I shot on super is just expense. It was very cheap to do that. And I kind of blundered into filmmaking. I was never that interested in films. You know, my background was very much performance. People like Stuart Brizzy and Joseph Boyce and Marina Abramovich, they were the people that kind of turned me on when I was at art school and then when I graduated with an ma, I just happened to be documenting performances. And it got a bit of traction. A film I made called Clippity Clock. And I was very lucky to have got the commission to have made Galavan through the bfi. At the time, we're looking kind of for more experimental work. And it was kind of a happenstance. It was those moments of encounter with the public. And also my grandmother, that's my grandmother Gladys, who is no longer with us. But I always knew that there was a kind of dynamic between her and Eden, who at that stage was eight, and she has a very rare syndrome. And my grandmother was very afeared, as indeed a lot of people are. If you're meeting somebody for the first time with a profound disability, you kind of. You don't really know a way in. And Gladys in particular, she goes get to bloody talk with her bloody properly. And Eden would use sign language. She was using Makotin as a. As a way of communicating. So after three and a half months on the road of making Galavan, Gladys kind of comes back and she said I could know what she's talking about with her bloody hands now. And that. That was a moment which was kind of, you know, you couldn't script that kind of stuff.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Andrew Cotting]

And so I'm trying to capture those moments which are drawing from, you know, it comes the real world. And therefore this idea of a virtual reality kind of begins to work. It's about memory as well, you know, the fuzziness of memory and the powers of recall and truth, you know, the ideas of my truth and other people's truths and Eden's truth in particular. Working with Eden is unfathomable. She'd be 38 in a couple of, you know, weeks time. And the fact that she's still here with us was something we weren't expecting at all. Her life was very vulnerable.

[Mark Kermode]

And you've had this amazing artistic collaboration with it. You've worked together on all these different projects. Obviously you've worked together on this. On this new exhibition. And it is. I mean, it is an incredibly creative relationship, isn't it?

[Andrew Cotting]

Yeah, it stops. It's. We're conjoined muses, I think. Yeah. Or maybe as Ian Sinclair talks about somebody else I've collaborated with, you know, incredibly articulate. He talks about me ventriloquizing her. Or is it her ventriloquizing me? You know, I wouldn't be here tonight without her agency.

[Twiggy]

Yeah.

[Andrew Cotting]

I wouldn't make the work I've been making the last 20 years without her agency. And it's, you know, I think a father daughter thing brings. It's taken me into new territory. You know, there's my life before Eden, there's life afterwards. And yet, you know, the films that you just show. You just showed, you know, up there are kind of. They're all part of our. And even if she's not necessarily in the films or having direct kind of impact on them, it's. It's being a primary carer for somebody like Eden that really makes you rethink, you know, what's normal and what isn't normal.

[Mark Kermode]

And if people come to the exhibition, I know it's in Bristol at the moment, but it's been touring, hasn't it? So we'll go to different places. It was in Truro before. What can they expect to see?

[Andrew Cotting]

Swedenborg? I know some of you might. Swedenborg House is quite close to here in London. It'll be transferring to the end of April.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Andrew Cotting]

You'll go into a gallery space. You'll look at lots of the. The objects that you're familiar with because of the VR. There might be rugs, there might be posters. There will be even shoes, clothes, furniture from. We bought back from the Pyrenees when we sold it. And then you get to experience her drawings, which are then kind of modeled 3D, so they drift around. You'll get fish and you'll get heads and you'll get sound bites of Gladys and so on. So there's a. There's a lot happening within that experience. But when you take the VR off, you're. You're going to see these art objects within the gallery space.

[Mark Kermode]

Now, I always find it hard to think of things influencing you because I think that your work is so unique. I mean, you know, an Andrew Cotting film is an Andrew Cotting film. It doesn't look like anybody else's work. But I asked you to think of an inspirational tech. You came up with a really interesting example. What did you choose as an inspirational tech?

[Andrew Cotting]

I chose. It was difficult, but I came up with the Color of Pomegranates by Sergey Parijanov. And I remember this film for the first time. I was at the Slades starting on an ma. And Simon Field, you might remember, used to program for the ica. Yeah. He would come along as a visiting lecturer once a month and he would kind of put on stuff without introducing it. And after he said what is that about? And I remember watching it being transfixed. And as somebody was never really inspired by cinema, there was something very literary about. There was something incredibly powerful. It kind of. It's a punctum that hits you when you're looking at it because it's unfathomable. And that's what I like about films, is that the narrative is. I can't do narrative. I'm not so interested in narrative. But when you're looking at image and sound, that kind of alchemical, it's like a spell that's. That's being cast upon you. Yes, Parajanov. In this particular film there are moments of undiluted comedy. It's profound. They're working with religious text. It's a story about a kind of Armenian poet. But it's only after now I've been showing it to my students myself for over 25 years, is that you begin to learn about it. But the not knowing is its power. The fact that there is no plot, there's no beginning, middle or end. Things happen and the frame is locked off. It's a kind of. It's a life vivant. And then you kind of project meaning and significance into what he's chucking at you.

[Mark Kermode]

How many people here have seen Colour of Pomegranates? Okay, so a few.

[Andrew Cotting]

Four. Four.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Andrew Cotting]

And they're all students.

[Mark Kermode]

So for most of you having not seen it, you're going to experience it exactly as Andrew has just described, hopefully. Exactly. Take a look at this.

[Andrew Cotting]

It must be said. Also you mentioned Mark Jenkins. The post sync there of the sound is something also had a profound impact on me. I normally shoot what I used to shoot silently and then, you know, introduce the sound. There's something about the sound is minimal but really effective in that.

[Mark Kermode]

How do you describe yourself? You know, you said initially it wasn't filmmaking, it was coming from performance. I mean, how do you describe yourself?

[Andrew Cotting]

Half wit, shoddiest, postmodern moron? Or as Ian Sinclair described me once as the seaside Herzogian Benny Hill. And I'm happy with that.

[Mark Kermode]

I get these parcels from Andrew every now and then. He'll send me a book. They'll be wrapped up in brown paper and rather than having like you know, a five pound stamp, it'll have a hundred two piece stamps stamped all the way around. What is it with you and stamps?

[Andrew Cotting]

My dad died, we inherited his stamp collection and Layla, my partner, has been sending stuff out into the world. That would have been her that put the stamps on it. We can't get rid of them. We have so many of them.

[Mark Kermode]

It's. But it's, you know, it's like, oh, there's another parcel from Cotting here. And are you still as enthusiastic about. Because one of the things I love about your, your films. I don't think I've ever seen anything that you've done that didn't look like it was driven by passion. I mean there's no rational reason in the world to make the stuff you make.

[Andrew Cotting]

I'm pulling them. Yeah, you're right. Is that a positive criticism?

[Mark Kermode]

No, that's literally. That is the greatest.

[Andrew Cotting]

What is that doing in the world, Andrew?

[Mark Kermode]

You know the compliment I can give you. There was never a bunch of executives that sat around and said we really need to commission Andrew Cotting to make something for us.

[Andrew Cotting]

Now I've been very lucky. I'm pulling my own life. I mean, they're just an extension of the lived experience, you know, for want of a crasser word, you know, having somebody like Eden in my life and now realizing that I can't really make feature films, I can't be away from home for a long time. So I'm pulling on that. But I'm looking for the alchemy of real life, pulling on happenstance, pull on serendipity encounter. And now I think through the use of sound and image. Now with digital you're putting these elements together line with the VR in a way that I'd never done before.

[Mark Kermode]

And has VR sort of opened up a new area for you?

[Andrew Cotting]

Yeah, very much so. It's, it's a nice vessel. It's a night, you know, talk about memory hovel. It's a way of bringing things together. All the different component parts is my, you know, I've been a professor of time based media and I chose that in particular because nobody knows what that

[Mark Kermode]

Means, what does it mean?

[Andrew Cotting]

Nobody knows and I'm not going to tell you. And it just seems to fit what I've been doing for almost 45, 50 years now.

[Mark Kermode]

There is an interesting thing which, if you look at your entire body of work, it does look like separate chapters in the same story. I mean, it's all autobiographical, but you return time and again. Like, you know, there are stories that you'll raise in one, maybe a short film or a fiction that will come up sort of three or four. Like, do you feel like it's like an ongoing conversation?

[Andrew Cotting]

Yeah, yeah. I'm barking up the same tree, but every time I bang it or chainsaw, bits of it, different fruits are falling down. That's the way I look at it. And, and sometimes they're rotten.

[Mark Kermode]

And you've mentioned that. You've mentioned that. You, you know, you, you know, I said, you know Mark Jenkins, you love Mark Jenkins work, right?

[Andrew Cotting]

Not really, no.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, fine. He's overrated.

[Andrew Cotting]

He tries. He's trying hard, but he could do a lot better. I mean, I'd give him a B plus, but he's got a long way to go.

[Mark Kermode]

Who, who, who, if anyone, I'm going to tell. Mark's going to listen to the podcast. Who, if anyone, is a. Is a contemporary of yours in terms of your stuff. Because I don't think there is anyone

[Andrew Cotting]

doing what you're doing in terms of moving image. No, but in memory of somebody like Sean Locke, who had a massive impact on my life, a very close old friend who spent time down in the Pyrenees, somebody like, sure. Who walked out of this filthy earth when we had the very first screening of it, which you then were very positive about in Edinburgh. I was very kind of.

[Mark Kermode]

I've been a fan of yours from that.

[Andrew Cotting]

Well, I was undecided to tell him about the work, but Sean walked out of the screening. He went, what the fuck have you done? And I remember that. And he was right, you know, I'd got so much wrong. But. And ask you a question. I'm never interested in full stops, semicolons, commas, open brackets. Fine. And therefore, the work is moving along an axis and it's never complete because I'm always cannibalizing my own work to try and reinvent it and say things are new and I don't know who's working like that. But Sean was definitely. He was an inspiration. And his voice still is there, you know, lingers every day.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, Andrew, I hope you keep doing what you're doing, because I think it's a really, you're a really important voice. And as I said, I mean, the only area that I really know about is cinema. The VR experience today was a real eye opener for me. I'm so glad we finally got you on the show after 10 years. Please don't make it another 10 years before you come back. The exhibition is currently on at the Undershared in Bristol and then it'll be

[Andrew Cotting]

at Swedenborg the end of April right through until June.

[Mark Kermode]

And then anyone who comes to it, they can try the VR thing.

[Andrew Cotting]

I'd love to, love to get the VR. And it's, it's, it's kind of, it's, it's 14 minutes, but, and it's really, it's really something.

[Mark Kermode]

Ladies and gentlemen, Andrew.

[Andrew Cotting]

Thank you, Mark. Thank you so much.

[Mark Kermode]

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[Twiggy]

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[Mark Kermode]

Now, our final guest tonight. There are very few people for whom the words, you know, legend and icon are genuinely a pleasure. But in this case, there's really not much question. There was a documentary about her that came out last year and we had the director of the documentary Sadie Frost on and she talked really enthusiastically about the film and that was terrific. I'm going to show you the trailer for that documentary which I think is currently available on iplayer. Take a look at this.

[Twiggy]

What happened to me? You couldn't plan in a Million years, this child,

[Mark Kermode]

something that we had not ever seen before.

[Andrew Cotting]

What you saw was what you got.

[Twiggy]

And her name came like a lightning bolt.

[Mark Kermode]

Twiggy, Twiggy, Twiggy, Twiggy.

[Twiggy]

It was really exciting because that didn't happen to people like me. She is someone that is a true British icon. She epitomizes an era. People like Sonny and Chef Steve McQueen.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, my God.

[Twiggy]

David Bowie just said my name.

[Andrew Cotting]

Who's your favorite philosopher?

[Twiggy]

Who's your. Oh, I, you know, I, I like,

[Mark Kermode]

I like them all.

[Twiggy]

Oh, she had gender fluid little elfin face, blurring lines between male and female. Who you want to be, how you want to say who you are. Got any pictures?

[Andrew Cotting]

On the beach in the bikini.

[Twiggy]

I'd like to see that your life changes completely. It mustn't have been easy then. She embraces every era of her life. Her ability to connect with women, all women imagine about being a star. It's just good fun.

[Mark Kermode]

Ladies and gentlemen, Twiggy.

[Twiggy]

I'm going to turn my chair around.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, There you go. Democratizing the show. Ten seconds after arriving on stage.

[Twiggy]

No, but those poor people haven't been able to see.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, you can, you can, you can just, you know, glow at them.

[Twiggy]

I'll glow at them.

[Mark Kermode]

The. The doc is fab, isn't it? It's a really great dog.

[Twiggy]

Oh, well, thank you. Well, you were very generous to us.

[Mark Kermode]

No, I mean, I just really liked it. Do you think it's a. It's a fair representation of your life?

[Twiggy]

Yeah, I mean, it's really hard for me to judge because it's about me. And the first time I saw the first cut, I cried through the whole thing because my mum and dad were up there who aren't with us anymore. My daughter is little, you know, and all the dramas that go on in everyone's life, you kind of remember them, but you kind of put them away and suddenly it's up on the big screen reminding you. So it was. It's very hard for me to be able to objective about it, but I think Sadie did a brilliant job of telling the story because that is what happened to me. It shouldn't have happened, but it did.

[Mark Kermode]

Do you think it's important that Sadie herself had some experience of the world and fame?

[Twiggy]

Yeah, because I had been. I think I probably told you this, but I have been approached over the years to do a documentary on my life and for whatever reason I didn't think, you know, it's a big thing to commit to and I didn't Think the people were right or I didn't think I'd work with them very well. And then Sadie came on my podcast, which you're gonna do this. I mean, I've got him on my podcast.

[Mark Kermode]

Edgar's already done it. Edgar's already been on.

[Twiggy]

Yeah, Edgar's been on. And she was called Tea With Twiggy. Tea With Twiggy. Thank you. And she was promoting her first documentary about Mary Quant, which is fabulous. If nobody's seen it, I. I think you can still get it.

[Mark Kermode]

You can, yeah, yeah.

[Twiggy]

And so she came on to promote that and I said to her, are you going to do another documentary? Because it's, you know, you're really good. And she said, well, I love doing Quant because it was set in the 1960s, a lot of it, and I loved research in the 60s because I miss the 60s. And she said, I should find somebody whose life is primarily in the 60s. Oh, I should do you. And that's literally how it happened on the podcast. And I said, well, let's talk about it next week. So we went out for lunch and it was interesting because she's, like, probably 15 years younger than me and. But she's lived a kind of parallel existence. She's been a model, I've been a model, she's been an actress and I've been an actual designer.

[Mark Kermode]

And she hasn't been an international singing star, though. Sorry, she hasn't been an international singing star, which you have.

[Twiggy]

No, no.

[Mark Kermode]

And she.

[Twiggy]

And she. She's lived in the public eye, very much so. She. I thought, well, this is interesting, she's a woman, which I quite liked. So. And so I kind of. I kind of gave. Gave her the green light. And then she took it to Film Soho to Nick Hampson, and he greenlit it immediately. So we were. Suddenly. I was doing it whether I liked it or not. And it was.

[Mark Kermode]

If anyone hasn't seen it, watch it, because it's just. I mean, it's so. It's so thrilling to watch. I remember really clearly because I was a Bowie fan when I was, you know, like, 11, 12, whatever. He's trying to dress like David Bowie. And so I think the first picture I had of you was you and Bowie together on the sleeve of Pinups.

[Twiggy]

I love that.

[Mark Kermode]

But you tell this brilliant story in the documentary about hearing David Bowie singing your name in Driving Saturday.

[Twiggy]

Well, I was a huge, huge fan, as you were. And, yeah, I was in my kitchen making my breakfast and my cup of tea and Drive In Saturday came on, which is one of his tracks from

[Mark Kermode]

one of the albums, A Lad Insane.

[Twiggy]

A Lad Insane. Thank you.

[Mark Kermode]

But I just mentioned it in passing.

[Twiggy]

And there's a line in the chorus where he sings she Sighs like Twig the Wonder Kid. And I thought, oh, my God, David Bowie sang and mentioned me in a song. So, anyway, it was very nice.

[Mark Kermode]

So I asked you to pick an inspirational text, and you said, I'd actually like to pick an inspirational person. And it's somebody who means an awful lot to both of us. Who was the person that you chose?

[Twiggy]

Ken Russell.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Twiggy]

Because he changed my life.

[Mark Kermode]

Tell me how Ken changed your life.

[Twiggy]

Well, it was 1968, I think, and I was doing quite well as a model around the world. I had no thoughts of performing, singing, dancing, acting. You know, I was modeling. I was very happy. I was working, earning money, doing well. And I got a phone call through my agent to meet Ken Russell about a film. And I thought, oh, okay. I was like, 17, 17 and a half. And it was a story about a magician and a young girl who traveled through the universe or whatever. So I met Ken, and we immediately got on really well. The film didn't happen. He couldn't get finance. But at that time, he was the biggest director in England.

[Mark Kermode]

He was the only filmmaker to have four films playing simultaneously in the West End.

[Twiggy]

Wow.

[Mark Kermode]

I did four films at the same time.

[Twiggy]

That's amazing. So anyway, we became great friends, him and his lovely wife, Shirley. And every Friday night, they'd have a dinner and they'd drop a screen. And Ken, it was like this amazing evening because he'd show me films from Europe. Fritz Lang, Eisenstein, all the Busby, Barclay movies. I'd never seen any. You know, I came from Neasden. We didn't see. We didn't see films like that. And it was like, oh, my God, of all Fred and Ginger. I fell madly in love with Fred Astaire. And so it was like this amazing education in film. And then two years in, I'd been to see a staged production of the Boyfriend. And the next night, I was having dinner with Ken and Shirley, and I was like, oh, I've seen this show, and it's fabulous. And, oh, it's singing and dancing. And through the evening, after quite a lot of champagne, Ken said, I know, I'll make the movie. You can play Polly Brown, who's the lead girl, and I'll direct it. What do you think? And I thought, oh, my God. I thought he'd had too much to drink and he'd forget Tomorrow. And then he rang me the morning, next, the next day and said, what do you think? And I said, oh, I don't know, I've never done it before. And he said, no, we're going to do it. And then he had to convince the film company they didn't want me because I was a model and I'd never acted, which I understand. And God bless him, he fought for me for a year and he got me. So you changed my life.

[Mark Kermode]

You mentioned Busby Berkeley. You mentioned. Can we. We're going to watch a sequence from the Boyfriend. This is probably the most famous sequence and it's just lovely to be able to show it on this, on this big screen. How many people here have seen the boyfriend unlock the savings at Boost Mobile and save up to $600 a year? I've been scouting these big carriers for a minute now and I've seen them pull the same play a thousand times. They promise you the world, then hit you with a price hike right when the game gets tight. But boy, Boost Mobile, their 25amonth unlimited wireless plan is the most consistent player on the floor. No contracts, no price hikes. Unlock the Savings [e-mail] Unlock based on average annual single line payment of AT&T, Verizon and T mobile customers compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile unlimited wireless plan as of January 2026. For full offer details, visit boostmobile.com craving

[Twiggy]

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[Andrew Cotting]

Good.

[Mark Kermode]

Good. Well, enjoy this.

[Andrew Cotting]

It.

[Mark Kermode]

Could you tap anyway?

[Twiggy]

No.

[Mark Kermode]

So you learned it for the film?

[Twiggy]

Yeah. Well, I had a year. Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Give me 10 years. I couldn't do that.

[Twiggy]

So he sent me off to tap class and he sent me off to singing and a few ballet classes. But my ballet teacher said I was the noisiest pupil she'd ever had, you know, because I'd never done it before. So ballet is quite, you know, tough if you've never done it and you ended up.

[Mark Kermode]

You ended up meeting Fred Astaire.

[Twiggy]

I did. I met my hero through Ken, through Through Ken? No, no, I. Well, it was through the movie. I went to Los Angeles to promote it when it opened there, and it was made by mgm. And I went to the studio and it was the day where they set you up with your interviews and who you're going to talk to and. And what TV shows you're going to be on to promote the film. And while I was there, they said to me, is there any. Is there anyone in Hollywood you'd like to meet? You know, I was 21 years old, so I think they thought I was going to pick some gorgeous young hunk. And I said, oh, my God, I'd love to meet Fred Astaire. And they kind of went, Fred, he's 72. I said, I know, but I. I love him. And he was such an inspiration for us doing the film. And they said, the thing is, he is very reclusive. He's very shy. He's retired, and I don't think that's going to happen. And I said, you know, I'd never intrude on his privacy. Anyway, I went back to the hotel to get ready for dinner or whatever, and the phone rang, and it was somebody in that office had overheard the conversation about my love for Fred Astaire. And she had been on all the Fred and Ginger movies as a secretary. And she rang Fred and said, twiggy was in today and she's your biggest fan and she would love to meet. And he invited me to tea. So the next day, I went up to In Bel Air, this beautiful Spanish house. I was so nervous. Oh, my God. And I remember the maid took us into the sitting room and we sat and waited, and the door opened. It was a big room, and the door opened in the far corner and he came in and. I mean, we all know how Fred Astaire dances, but I have to say, nobody walks across a room like Fred Astaire. He was so gorgeous. And he was the sweetest, most modest man you could ever meet. I was so lucky. I met my hero.

[Mark Kermode]

The interesting thing about the boyfriend, which is such a beautiful and light and whimsical film, is it's made straight off the back of the Devils, which is an adaptation of the Devils of Ludon and probably Ken's most controversial film, to the point that Warner still won't allow the uncut version to be released. Now, you were on set of the Devils. In fact, you are in the Devils, right?

[Twiggy]

Apparently, yeah. Well, I went to the set. He invited me to the set, and then he sent me into costume. I think I'm in it for about eight seconds.

[Mark Kermode]

Do you want to see the eight seconds?

[Twiggy]

I've never seen it.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, turn around. It's Nick's. Put it on a loop. And he slowed it down. Okay.

[Twiggy]

There. Oh, my God. Yeah. I think I was dressed as a boy, actually. Or maybe not.

[Mark Kermode]

You don't look like a boy.

[Twiggy]

A boy with very long hair. Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

There we go. Ladies and gentlemen, Twiggy in the Devils.

[Twiggy]

Well spotted.

[Mark Kermode]

But you. You never saw it.

[Twiggy]

I never saw it, no. I said to Ken, when they start throwing their clothes off, I'm leaving, because I knew what he was like.

[Mark Kermode]

So how are you finding life as a podcast host?

[Twiggy]

It's fun, actually, isn't it?

[Mark Kermode]

I'm making a living, I guess. I'm making a living out of it. I love it.

[Twiggy]

Well, I started it in. In Covid, because my agent rang me and I was so bored, like, everyone. And he said, do you want to do a podcast? And I hadn't really listened to that many. And I said, oh, I don't know. Anyway, he said, I've got a producer who'd like to do it. And my husband Lee came up with the title Tea with Tea. Because I said, if I do it, I just want to be like a friendly chat. Like, we've gone out to a cafe to have a good old chat. And then I thought, oh, my God, who can I get first? And I thought, Joanna Lumley, who's my friend. Because I was very nervous. I thought, oh, God. And so I rang all the.

[Mark Kermode]

Working with David Bowie and working with Ken Russell and me.

[Twiggy]

Yeah. But I'd never done a podcast. So I rang Joe and I said, I'm going to do a podcast. Will you be my first guest? And of course, she was brilliant. And, you know, I mean, she. I just laughed through the whole thing because she's a brilliant podcaster person to have on you show.

[Mark Kermode]

So I'm coming on on Thursday. What do I. What do I need to prepare?

[Twiggy]

You don't. We're just gonna chat. I'll ask you a few questions, and it just goes from there, really.

[Mark Kermode]

Do you think that's the. One of the reasons that you've had the extraordinary career that you have is that you do just talk it like you walk it there. You haven't got any side to you at all, have you? You literally talk to people exactly the same way. You haven't got any front.

[Twiggy]

Well, I don't know. I've never really thought about it, but.

[Mark Kermode]

And there we are. Oh, there you go, and are you enjoying the podcast? Because that thing about, you know, just a chat with somebody, because podcast is very kind of free form. It's not, you know, you're not tied down. Do you enjoy that kind of open ended conversation?

[Twiggy]

I do. Because, you know, as, you know, you start chatting. I mean, I make a few notes and I do my research, but actually often the chat goes in a different direction anyway. And if it's working, it's, you know, and I've had some bridge and I think people kind of tell, maybe with you as well, but tell me things that they probably wouldn't tell a journalist. And it just comes. I mean, I had Emma Thompson on who told me such funny stories about carrying her Oscar on an airplane and taking it up to show the captain absolutely mad. She said, I've never told anyone that before.

[Mark Kermode]

I feel I'm going to be a crushing letdown because I've never done anything like that at all. But it is, there is that, that weird thing. But there is something quite intimate about the podcast atmosphere when it's done properly. I love the idea of tea with Twiggy. It's just, like I said, it's not an interview, it's just a conversation. You're just talking. Well, listen, I'm really looking forward to coming and I'm so glad that you're such a, you know, you're such a great advocate of Ken Russell.

[Twiggy]

Because the thing is, I loved him to bits.

[Mark Kermode]

One of the greatest filmmakers of his generation. And later on in his life he found it very, very hard to get films financed. But he never stopped being Ken.

[Twiggy]

Yeah, the industry kind of treated him terribly really towards the end. But listen, he changed my life and I loved him as a human being as well. And he was so knowledgeable about film, about music, about everything. I loved him to bits.

[Mark Kermode]

I ever tell you, Ken, the ghost story that Ken told me, we were in that pub that used to drink in. I said, ken, have you ever seen a ghost? He said, yeah, I have. I said, when was it? He said, well, literally I came out the Turf Cutters and this ghost ran across the road and went up the alley and I went, what did it look like? He went, it looked exactly like a little child. I went, ken, do you not think it was a little child? He went, no, it was a ghost. Because that was what he was like. He was a really exceptional, he was a visionary, really.

[Twiggy]

I mean, if you think of all the early television he did on Omnibus, I think it was, wasn't it, on Elgar and things.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. And he was a very loyal friend, wasn't he?

[Twiggy]

Oh, absolutely. Right until the end, actually. I stayed in touch with him.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Twiggy]

But he's very missed.

[Mark Kermode]

He is very, very missed and very.

[Twiggy]

Listen, he cha. I can. I've seen interviews with people like Spielberg and that all said that Ken Russell, when they were young, because they're that much younger than him, you know, made them want to be in film and direct. I mean, he inspired so many young directors who became massive.

[Mark Kermode]

Absolutely an absolute legend, as indeed are you. And I'm so glad and privileged to have you on the show. Ladies and gentlemen, Twiggy.

[Twiggy]

Thank you.

[Mark Kermode]

That's it for this week's edition of Kermode on Film. Thanks so much to my guest Andrew Cotting and Twiggy. The MK3D show happens live every month at the BFI. Head over to the BFI website if you'd like to join us live at the BFI for more conversations about film from me and Simon Mayo, you can go to kermodomayo's take wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. Keep watching this guys.

[Twiggy]

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[Mark Kermode]

Wait, we're going on tour?

[Twiggy]

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[Mark Kermode]

Delivery available for select devices purchased@boost mobile.com hello, this is Simon Mayo. And this is Mark kermode. He's the UK's best and most trusted film critic. He's a best selling writer, broadcaster and national treasure. Far too kind. Kermod and Mayo's take has all the reviews you need and star guests such as Sir Ian McKellen.

[Andrew Cotting]

Nice to be with you. Emma Stone.

[Twiggy]

That sounds like something I would love

[Mark Kermode]

to be a part of. Ewan McGregor. I'm very good. How are you doing? Kate Blanchette. What was that word you used?

[Twiggy]

Catty Wampus.

[Mark Kermode]

Kerma de Mayo's take. All the film you need available wherever you get your podcasts.