Why does Jack love TENET so much?

Summary

Kermode on Film – "Why does Jack love TENET so much?"

Host: Mark Kermode
Guest: Jack Howard
Date: May 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this lively edition of Kermode on Film, Mark Kermode and returning guest Jack Howard begin an ambitious multipart deep dive into the work of Christopher Nolan. With Nolan’s upcoming "Odyssey" on the horizon, they reflect on the progression of his career, focusing especially on the divisive reception and emotional core of "Tenet"—a film Jack passionately defends. The discussion branches into Nolan’s recurring themes, his evolution as a filmmaker, and the contrasting emotional landscapes of his works.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Anticipation for Nolan's "Odyssey" (00:49–05:11)

• Jack Howard expresses excitement about "Odyssey", noting that some footage has been shown before "Avatar: Fire and Ash" (00:27).
• Both Mark and Jack confirm they have avoided trailers and spoilers to preserve their first experience.
• Symptomatically, the episode uses Nolan’s signature device—the Shepherd tone—as a jump-off, with Mark explaining:

  "It's the aural equivalent of a barber’s pole... It gives the illusion of constantly going up." (05:35, Mark Kermode)

2. First Encounters with Nolan’s Films (06:18–08:25)

• Jack recounts seeing a pirated "Batman Begins" before being "gobsmacked" by it on a rewatch after "The Dark Knight" trailer and Heath Ledger’s death (07:07).
• Mark shares his introduction to Nolan via "Memento", then "Insomnia"—contrasting Nolan’s remake with the original Norwegian film.

3. The Nolan Sensibility (08:58–13:43)

• Mark reflects on what makes a "Chris Nolan movie":

  "In the original, what Eric Scholberg's interested in is the narrative. In the Nolan remake, what Nolan’s interested in is the story behind the story... The abstract concept of guilt.” (12:10–13:43, Mark Kermode)

• They discuss how Nolan's focus shifted from narrative mechanics to broader existential and emotional territory.

4. Mechanics vs. Emotion in Nolan’s Work (13:55–16:58)

• Jack observes Nolan’s increasing interest in the mechanics of storytelling but argues the mechanics are not “the point” (13:55).
• This dovetails into an analysis of "Inception" and "Interstellar":
  • Mark: "Inception... is actually about grief." (14:24)
  • Jack: "It’s about a father who wants to get back to his children." (14:27)
• They agree the underlying emotional stakes drive the spectacle.

5. Is "Tenet" Coldly Mechanical? (16:00–21:12)

• Mark voices his trouble with "Tenet":

  "For me, it's the one in which the schematics are the point, the palindrome is the point." (16:34)

• Jack counters by celebrating the film’s puzzle-box structure:

  "It’s a mechanical puzzle... like doing a sudoku" (16:58, Jack Howard)

• Jack highlights the fixed timeline and "what's happened's happened" as uniquely "cool".

6. Finding Tenet's Emotional Core (21:12–26:13)

• Jack presents his heartfelt reading: "Tenet" is a "hidden" story about a fractured family—Kat (mother), Sator (abusive father), Max/Neil (son), and the protagonist as a kind of surrogate father.
• Key theory: Neil is Kat’s son, Max, grown up—a palindrome embedded both in name and narrative structure.
• He references a telling moment:

  “Kat says, ‘If the world ends, I don’t want those moments to be full of anguish if they’re going to be my son’s last.’ And the protagonist looks at Neil and goes, ‘They’re not.’ I think that is indisputable evidence.” (26:13, Jack Howard)

• Jack ties the film’s literal time manipulation to the emotional theme of trauma:

  "What other way of talking about dealing with your trauma is it than going back in time and understanding what's happened's happened? I have to accept it and move on." (27:36)

7. Why Tenet Divides (27:50–29:09)

• Mark concedes that “Tenet’s” emotional core is buried:

  “It’s the one in which it’s hidden, you know, in terms of the layers of Inception. It’s down there with the rocks and the sea...” (28:18)

• Both agree that "Tenet" is hard to access emotionally and narratively, but Jack insists the rewatch rewards are significant for those willing to dig.

8. Nolan and Emotional Engagement Across Films (29:09–35:43)

• Interstellar’s reputation and impact discussed:
  • Mark calls it “the one which gets on its knees and goes, love me” (30:41).
  • Jack notes Nolan made Interstellar so emotional as a response to critics calling him "cold" (31:29).
  • Mark relates this to Trumbull’s "Silent Running", which was itself a response to the coldness of "2001".
• "The Prestige" identified as Nolan’s most emotionally devastating film for Mark:

  "It’s about losing yourself... literally losing yourself over and over." (33:16, Mark Kermode)

• Jack contrasts his own preference for rewatchable, mind-twisting films like "Tenet" and "Oppenheimer", calling the latter a "comfort watch" because of its rhythmic energy (35:02).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Shepherd Tone:

  “It's the aural equivalent of a barber's pole... It gives the illusion that there’s a rising, rising [pitch].”
  (05:35, Mark Kermode)

• On Nolan’s signature:

  "There is such a thing as a Chris Nolan sensibility."
  (11:15, Mark Kermode)

• Defending Tenet's rewatchability and secrets:

  “I think the more you give to it, the more it gives back to you... If you’re looking for them.”
  (33:54, Jack Howard)

• Emotional themes hidden in Tenet:

  “It is a film about... dealing with your trauma... going back in time and understanding what's happened's happened—accepting it, and move on.”
  (27:36, Jack Howard)

• On "Interstellar’s" striving for feeling:

  "It’s the one that literally gets on its knees and goes, love me."
  (30:41, Mark Kermode)

• On "The Prestige":

  “It's about losing yourself as opposed to losing somebody else... literally losing yourself over and over and over again.”
  (33:16, Mark Kermode)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:49 – Introduction: Anticipating “Odyssey” and Nolan’s legacy
• 06:18 – First contact with Nolan (Jack: "Batman Begins" via pirate copy)
• 08:58 – "Memento," "Insomnia," and establishing Nolan’s style
• 13:55 – Mechanics vs. emotion; "Inception," "Interstellar" analysis
• 16:00 – Mark’s critique: "Tenet" as all structure, little heart
• 16:58 – Jack’s defense: "Tenet" as puzzle and poetry
• 21:12 – Hidden family drama at Tenet’s core; Neil/Max theory explained
• 26:13 – Evidence for the Neil = Max theory
• 27:36 – Trauma, time, and emotional subtext in "Tenet"
• 29:09 – Accessibility and critical division over "Tenet"
• 29:45 – "Interstellar," emotion, and Nolan as cold/warm filmmaker
• 31:29 – Nolan responding to criticism with "Interstellar"
• 33:00 – “The Prestige” and Nolan’s emotional heights
• 35:02 – Jack: "Oppenheimer" as a comfort watch
• 35:17 – Mark and Jack preview future Nolan discussion

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Episode Summary & Flow

The episode serves as both a spirited defense of Nolan's most confounding film and an open meditation on the director’s thematic fixations. Jack’s advocacy for "Tenet" reframes it as an emotional story hidden behind intricate plotting, while Mark provides critical context for how Nolan’s style and preoccupations have matured. Throughout their filmography tour, both hosts reflect candidly on their evolving feelings about Nolan’s work—blending humor, expertise, and a bit of disagreement in a manner fitting for devoted cinephiles.

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For New Listeners

If you’ve never seen "Tenet" or have struggled with Nolan's films, this episode gives you both a practical primer and an emotional reframing, positioning every narrative puzzle as part of a grander, more human story. The conversation also teases further explorations—so expect more Nolan analysis in upcoming episodes.

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Notable Moments:

• Jack’s theory that Neil is really Max, Kat’s son, is a centerpiece (21:55, 26:13)
• Mark’s wry commentary on movie mechanics and emotional engagement (12:10, 30:41)
• Delightful tangents on sleep apnea, Bane masks, and Scandinavian noir bring levity and warmth throughout.

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"[Tenet] is a film about... dealing with your trauma... going back in time and understanding what's happened's happened—accepting it, and move on."
—Jack Howard (27:36)

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Want more Nolan?
"Like, subscribe, leave a review"—and return for the next installment of their Christopher Nolan odyssey.

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Transcript

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[Mark Kermode]

Hi, this is Mark Kermode. Thanks for downloading this Kermode on Film podcast or if you're watching us on YouTube. Welcome to upstairs at the Sun Pub in London's bustling West End. I'm joined once again by Jack Howard.

[Jack Howard]

Hello there. Today we're going to be talking about Christopher Nolan, kind of generally because we're coming up to the release of the Odyssey. We don't think we can cover all of Christopher Nolan's work or our thoughts on Christopher Nolan's work in one simple half an hour podcast. So this is going to be our first part of what will be God knows how many parts talking about the work of Christopher Nolan. So sit down, relax, grab a drink, do it in reverse and enjoy our conversation.

[Mark Kermode]

Vomit into a glass. Let me ask you first, how are you feeling about the oddsy? Bear in mind, none of us have seen it. Obviously nobody's seen it. It's been trailer and all the rest of it.

[Jack Howard]

There was a feeling, there was an opening sequence that was shown, I think before mainly Avatar 4. 4.

[Mark Kermode]

Is it 4? Ash and Fire and Ash, which I

[Jack Howard]

didn't see because I've lost. Is it three?

[Mark Kermode]

So it's Avatar. Avatar, the Way of Water. Avatar, Fire and Ash.

[Jack Howard]

So it is three. Three, okay.

[Mark Kermode]

Felt like five.

[Jack Howard]

Sure. You know, but I haven't seen it because I'm. I've lost interest. You have to see it for a job.

[Mark Kermode]

Can I tell you a joke that I wrote that I didn't use when

[Jack Howard]

I did the Tell us All mark?

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. I thought this was a good joke, right? I did the Critics Circle Awards, right? And I wrote a bunch of stuff and then I ended up taking this out for various reasons. I thought this was funny. Probably wasn't. I was doing a thing about, you know, what movies had opened this year and I said, you know, Avatar, Fire and Ash, you know, it was in it. And one of the actors in Avatar Fire and Ash is very famous for the fact that they can hold their breath underwater for seven minutes. And this was great because, you know, when you're making the film, you have to, you have to do the thing. It's interesting for me because I don't know whether you know this, we may have discussed it, but I suffer from sleep apnea, you know, and sleep apnea is that when you fall asleep, you stop breathing and you stop breathing for, you know, and then you start breathing again. It can be quite dangerous. Anyway, I have, I appear to have cured it. I appear to have cured it through various different things. But the thing is that when I was watching Avatar Fire and Ash, all three hours of it, I'm pretty sure I stopped breathing for longer than seven minutes.

[Jack Howard]

That's good.

[Mark Kermode]

That's good.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. So for your sleep apnea, did you have to wear like a Bane mask?

[Mark Kermode]

Weirdly enough. So I have a friend, an actor friend who I won't name but them,

[Jack Howard]

and they're relevant to this conversation and

[Mark Kermode]

they have sleep apnea and they solved it by wearing a Bane mask. Okay. And you know, so literally all that stuff. And so you sleep with a little machine.

[Jack Howard]

Some joke about like, no one knew I couldn't sleep until I put on the mask.

[Mark Kermode]

And so I. This is, this is absolutely true. We will get to talking about films. So I got one of those. It's horrible. It was just like, it was like an alien face hugger. I mean, really what they should do is they should make face hugger dolls but with a pipe that goes into a little thing with a face. So, yeah, I tried the, the, the Bane mask, but I wanted the face. I didn't like either of them. And then I saw on the Internet, because I'm such an idiot, the Internet thing, it was like a little thing that clips on your nose with a little propeller in it that just blows air up your nose, apparently. Guess what? It doesn't work. All it does is it sounds like an angry bee is attached to your face. You just go, sorry, hang on. So it's got like, it's got like, it's literally. It's like a little thing like that. It's got two pipes and it sticks in your nose. It's got a little propeller. Got a little propeller and it just goes.

[Jack Howard]

But of course it, that's not going to make you go to sleep.

[Mark Kermode]

No. Also it's not going to make you stop breathing. So anyway. But no, I, I But there was a. There's a whole bunch of other things you can do. It's like, to do with the way that you. That you lie and to do. Anyway, but. But. So I apparently don't have sleep apnea anymore, but it did enable me to make that joke about Avatar.

[Jack Howard]

Anyway, I'm really excited about the Odyssey.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, thank you. To get us back on track. Tell me what. So. So why you're excited.

[Jack Howard]

Before fire and ash, which I didn't see, and I. One battle after another and a few others, they played the opening sequence of the Odyssey. Have you seen that?

[Mark Kermode]

No, I've also deliberately. Okay, I've deliberately avoided it.

[Jack Howard]

Now, the only thing I've heard.

[Mark Kermode]

I haven't even seen the trailer.

[Jack Howard]

Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

And I've deliberately avoided it. I mean, I know what's going on in it, but I've deliberately not watched

[Jack Howard]

it because I can't help myself. I know, but I haven't seen the opening sequence. The only thing I've heard from my composer, Benjamin Squires, he texted me and said, nolan's back on his shepherd tone hype.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

So, yeah, for anyone who doesn't know, a shepherd tone is a note that feels like it's constantly ascending. It's like it's an audio illusion, because

[Mark Kermode]

it's not a note. It is basically. It's. It's the oral equivalent. Yeah, it's the oral equivalent of a barber's pole. Is that what happens is that there's two elements to it, which is a higher element and a lower element, and they go up, but they give the illusion of constantly going up. But what's happening is that they're doing. They're doing that as it goes up, but it gives the illusion that it. That there's a rising. Rising. It's particularly used in Dunkirk.

[Jack Howard]

But the thing he's used it in so many things.

[Mark Kermode]

The first thing we heard it in, in a Nolan film is the bat bike.

[Jack Howard]

That's literally. I was about to say. Yeah, the bat pod is. Is. Is the engine of that. Sounds like that. We were, like, fighting to get to that. Fun fact. Like.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm good.

[Jack Howard]

No, I'm going to say it. Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

That's the pulled rank in terms of age.

[Jack Howard]

So why am I excited about the Odyssey? Look, I am one of those stereotypical men in his 30s who just loves Christopher Nolan. We've talked about this several times. I was at the exact right age when Christopher Nolan was starting to make big movies. I actually remember the first time I ever encountered a Christopher Nolan film was a Pirated copy of Batman Begins. And I remember being a 13 or 14 watching this and my first feeling on this when I wasn't particularly. I always was into movies, but I wasn't, like, into movies yet. I was too young. So I was watching this pirated copy of Batman Begins, and as you know, Batman doesn't show up for an hour. So I'm watching it as a kid being like, what the hell is this?

[Mark Kermode]

When will Batman begin?

[Jack Howard]

Where is Batman? When will Batman begin? So I, like, just wasn't interested at all. And then the trailer for the Dark Knight came out in early 2008, mixed with, obviously, the. The tragedy of the death of Heath Ledger. And I then, at the age of 16, watched Batman Begins properly and was gobsmacked and was like, that is the best superhero film I've ever seen.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

So since then, well, I've been on the train.

[Mark Kermode]

So I. Weirdly enough, this morning. So we're here in the. In the sun pub in. Are we Covent Gardens, Technically? Is this Covent Garden?

[Jack Howard]

Well, I. I walk from Tottenham Court Road. I think we're just in sort of Soho area.

[Mark Kermode]

We're on Drury Lane. We're down. We're down the road from the Travel Lodge.

[Jack Howard]

We're in the classic. You know, it's the. The Gingerbread man on Drury Lane.

[Mark Kermode]

That's where it is. So I have just come from recording a bunch of BFI intros, because I do intros for the BFI player and I did one for Insomnia, not the Nolan remake, the Eric Scholberg original, the Norwegian film. And it's fascinating because when I first encountered Nolan, I think maybe Memento was the first. Was the very first thing I hadn't seen. Knowing. Because I think people only.

[Jack Howard]

Following.

[Mark Kermode]

Following. There we go. Was Knowing was M. Night Shyamalan Knowing.

[Jack Howard]

Knowing what is. The one I can think of is like a Nicholas Cage movie.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, that's right. Of which one of the reviews said, it's best not to. Yeah, Following. And so I hadn't seen this. I don't think anybody really saw following until afterwards.

[Jack Howard]

It was kind of all I know about it. I've seen it, but all I know about it from the time is that it was a festival. Darling.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

He'd made it over the course of a year, like every Saturday for a year. Just got together and filmed one once a week. And it's what got Memento.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

Made.

[Mark Kermode]

But it. But it. But. So basically, for most people like me, the first film they saw was Momentum,

[Jack Howard]

I would say, in a lot of ways, Memento is kind of his first film, okay, because following is essentially like

[Mark Kermode]

a student project in the same way that Bait is Mark Jenkins debut feature, but there is actually a movie that he made a long time before. And it's the same with Amara Santi and, and Bell. Anyway, so I had seen Memento and loved it. Went to see Insomnia, which was his 2002 remake of the Norwegian film. Absolutely loved Insomnia, having obviously at that point not seen the Norwegian film because it had been a, you know, hit in Norway. But it, it wasn't such a big hit that in, you know, in the 90s, reviewing films for Radio 1, I would have seen it. What really surprised me was how close the Nolan Insomnia was the original. I mean, there are key differences, but it is stylistically and in terms of a lot of the kind of narrative decisions it is, it is an oddly similar film. And I remember thinking, oh, you know that thing when you hear a great pop record and you think that's absolutely brilliant. Somebody goes, you know, it's a cover version. No. And then you hear the original, you go, it.

[Jack Howard]

It's the same.

[Mark Kermode]

It's the same. But what was really interesting was going back to watch it again to do the BFI intro for the original version of Insomnia, realizing, no, it isn't the same. There are, there are absolutely things in that which are Nolan. And apparently Nolan saw Insomnia a couple of times before he made his, his, his own feature debut. And he had, he had really liked it and, and, and said, I'm going to remake this. And he had been really, really struck by something in it which kind of informs the rest of his work. And it was just fascinating watching the original and then the Nolan and going, okay, they, they look similar, but they're absolutely not. This is absolutely a Chris Nolan film in its DNA as opposed to just a shot for shot remake of this original incident. If you've never seen the original of Insomnia is Worm. It's great. It's got. Still on Skarsgard. He's fantastic. And it's got that. The whole, you know, sleep no more thing going on in it.

[Jack Howard]

I need to watch it.

[Mark Kermode]

But I was just fascinated by the idea that you can make a remake that is, that is fairly close and yet very different. And I think that's the point at which you start thinking, oh, there, okay, there is such a thing as a Chris Nolan sensibility. And then of course, as I've said a million times, I saw Batman Begins

[Jack Howard]

and I want to know what the difference was that you found that, like, when you're like, this is a Chris Nolan movie.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

What do you mean by that?

[Mark Kermode]

So I think that the original of that movie is a dark crime thriller. And I think that the Chris Nolan movie is a sort of existential musing, and they're both about somebody consumed by guilt who is living in an area where the sun doesn't go down, you know, because it's Arctic Circle, and consequently you can't sleep. But I think.

[Jack Howard]

Is it where the director's applying the pressure, essentially? Is it, like. Is like. Oh, it's. It's about. You can feel that he's interested in this, and this director's interested in this.

[Mark Kermode]

So. So what I think is that in the original, what Eric Scholberg's interested in is the narrative. And in the Nolan remake, what Nolan's interested in is the. Is the story behind the story. It's not really about how this happened. It's not really about why this guy is in this position.

[Jack Howard]

And actually, I can tell you that that's definitely true from my memory of the film, which I've only seen maybe two or three times. My memory of it is about the relationship between Al Pacino and Robin Williams character and about what that feels like. And like you say, the guilt that he's feeling rather than actually the plot, like. Yes, and. And what.

[Mark Kermode]

And I.

[Jack Howard]

The mystery is.

[Mark Kermode]

And I think the. Well, it's not even a mystery because you know exactly what's happened, but the question is whether or not the. Whether or not the central character is able to avoid what's happened, which. To which the answer, you know, about the. It's. The sun doesn't go down, so. No, they can't. And I just think there is something in the Nolan which is much more leaning into the abstract idea of it as opposed to the. This is. This is grounded firmly in, you know, this is. This is a twisty neo noir Norwegian crime thriller. I mean, obviously, a lot of Scandinair is kind of very dark anyway. But the very dark thing about the original version of Insomnia. I mean, I love the title anyway, because to me, Insomnia is like, hell, that. I think the original version is much more about the mechanics of how that happens. And the Nolan version is less interested in the mechanics of it, although the mechanics will work, but he's more interested in the abstract concept of guilt.

[Jack Howard]

Got it. Interesting. Yeah. And it's interesting you say that as well, because I think that as Christopher Nolan has evolved As a filmmaker, I would say that the mechanics and how things work are very interesting to him.

[Mark Kermode]

They're. They're interesting and they're important, but in the end, they aren't the point. This may be something that we'll talk about with Tenet. So in the case of Inception. Right. Inception is layered and has, you know, these whole. Going down deeper into different layers, and then we see that kind of, you know, revisited in Interstellar. But it's not about that. What is it about? Well, you know. Yes, it's, you know, it's on Her Majesty's Secret Service in a dream thing, but it's actually about grief.

[Jack Howard]

Yes. And it's about a father who wants to get back to his children.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. And so it. So it is. That's what it's about. And then there's all the other stuff going on. And in the case of Interstellar, the way that Interstellar comes about, a father

[Jack Howard]

trying to get back to his children.

[Mark Kermode]

And you know, the story, obviously, that Hans Zimmerman, that Chris Nolan went to Hans Zimmer and said, I want you to write a melody about a father's love for his son. And Hans Zimmer went away and wrote it, and then he played it to Nolan, and Nolan went, well, now I have to make the film. And of course, in the film, it's not the son. It's. It's the daughter.

[Jack Howard]

I think it was a son in the script originally, actually.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, was it?

[Jack Howard]

I think so. In the original Jonathan Nolan script, when it was going to be a Spielberg film. I think it was originally a song. And actually a lot of the. From what I know in Interstellar, the unchanged things are the most powerful stuff that's lasted, which is him coming back from the planet where the time dilation has happened and watching his children grow up in the matter of minutes. That apparently is an unchanged scene from the original Jonathan Nolan script.

[Mark Kermode]

And then I think, you know, in the case of Memento, again, it's very. It's very clever. Again, Jonathan Nolan, you know, it's got that kind of.

[Jack Howard]

Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

Because everyone was talking for ages, weren't they? I don't know how many actually did. It's about doing Memento in the right order. Is there a version.

[Jack Howard]

There is a version on the DVD where they've put it in the right order for you, which I'm not. I'm not interested.

[Mark Kermode]

No reason. That's, like, why. It's like the thing that Coppola did with the Godfather was when he took Godfather 1 and 2 and he put Them in the right. He's like, no, just. Just stop doing that.

[Jack Howard]

I think. I think it's only, like, as a thought, because people just think. I wonder what it looks like in the right order.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

It's not supposed to be viewed this

[Mark Kermode]

way, but again, it's not just about that clever trick. And the most perfect example of that is that the Prestige, which is literally about a trick, is not about a trick. And I think, for me, the most problematic of the Nolans is Tenet, because that's the one that feels to me. No, I'm not. I've only. I've seen it far fewer times than you have. For me, it's the one in which the schematics are the point, the palindrome is the point. And I can feel myself.

[Jack Howard]

I can feel, like, the energy building up in me.

[Mark Kermode]

All right, I'm going to allow you to go. So let me. I'll say it. And then you. Can you tell me what I'm wrong? That.

[Jack Howard]

No, it's not about being wrong.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. For all of them, the mechanics are used in service of a deeper thing. I mean, you know, however deep you want it to be, but it's a deeper thing. In the case of Tenet, the mechanics are the point. Discuss.

[Jack Howard]

Interesting. I think we could maybe do an entire further episode on discussing this. Yeah, definitely. Maybe if people want us to do that, we will. I think you are absolutely correct in one half of the way that I look at Tenet. It is a mechanical puzzle of a film. It's like doing a sudoku puzzle. And there's something about that that works for my brain. Anybody who likes that kind of time travel stuff, especially something where it is a fixed timeline. So it's not like a back to the future thing where you can go back, change something, and then the future is different, and then. Oh, no, we've split timelines. This is something where it's a perfect circle, and they say it in the movie, what's happened's happened. So when you go back in time, you aren't changing something. You're just living it from a different perspective, which is very curt, which is. And it's very cool. It's very. It just kind of scratches something that I like.

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[Jack Howard]

and there's something about the movie that I would say to people, just enjoy. I mean, they say it in the film. Don't try and understand it, feel it. And I think what they mean by that, because it's not an emotional film, there's nothing to feel. What I mean is the music is telling the story. Ludwig Goranson score for that movie is unbelievably cool and so good.

[Mark Kermode]

And Nolan had it on set when he was shooting.

[Jack Howard]

Yes. Something that I love about the fact that the movie is about stuff happening simultaneously. So the opening sequence of the film and the final sequence of the film are actually happening on the same day. So stuff is happening simultaneously. And in the filmmaking, Ludwig Goranson was making the score at the same time as they were shooting the film, which is very unusual. You usually don't do that. And so the fact that there was. The mechanics of the film was happening simultaneously whilst he's making a film about stuff happening simultaneously, I think is a very cool exercise. And that's another thing I love about it as well, actually, is that it's. It is a cool exercise of a film. It's Nolan going, they gave me $200 million and I made this because I can.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

And I think that's awesome.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. The problem is in agreement with you, but you're not saying anything that disagrees.

[Jack Howard]

Get into it.

[Mark Kermode]

You get into it.

[Jack Howard]

I'm getting to it. So I would say that like when. When they say man begins when it's

[Mark Kermode]

an hour before Batman, actually, when will Batman begin?

[Jack Howard]

I. I think that when they say, don't try and understand it, feel it, it is about like, let the film take you on its ride. Be a baby in the universe and just be like, oh, I don't know where I'm going and what. What's happening with this, and just enjoy that experience. At the same time, I would argue that the. The story that's underneath Tenet is actually about a family drama. Okay. It is actually about a mother, a father and a son. And it is purposefully hidden. Because one of the big things that said in Tenet is ignorance is our ammunition, and that. That no one can know anything, because if you know it, then you might try and change it. And it has to happen the way it happens. Right?

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

So my first example of this is the first time that Robin Pattinson meets the protagonist. When he sits down and meets him, it's in a hotel lobby. And Robert Pattinson's character, Neil, is a little bit drunk, and he sits down and speaks to him, and he knows too much about him, and he lets things slip. So he lets him know that his favorite drink is a Diet Coke or something, and he shouldn't do that, but he's letting stuff slip because he's a bit drunk. Now, if you watch that scene, he's essentially meeting. It's like the Back to the Future scene. He's meeting a future version of his father in a lot of ways, his surrogate father. So he's looking at a young version of his dad. And he's almost a bit Jack Sparrow about it. He's a bit like. Like, can't believe I'm here looking at you.

[Mark Kermode]

It's not a phrase you want to throw around lightly. It's a bit Jack Sparrow.

[Jack Howard]

You know what I'm saying?

[Mark Kermode]

I do.

[Jack Howard]

He's a bit. He's. And so the way I would describe the family drama of it is that you've got Kat, who is the mother of Max, and Max is Neil. I believe that to be a true theory, and I'll tell you why in a second. And you've got the protagonist, who is literally called the protagonist, and that is the mother, son, and the father. Right. And none of them can tell each other. That's what they are to each other, because if they do, they'll ruin what has to happen. But all the secrets are there to watch it. And it's a. There's moments in it where Cat is dying, and for some reason, the protagonist feels Like a desperate need to go back and save her. You have bits where Neil is literally taking care of his dying mother, but she's like, who are you? And he goes, let's start with the simple stuff. Every law of physics, but, like, the reason why that's funny is obviously like every rule of physics, but also like, I'm not going to sit here and say to you, I'm your son, by the way. So one of the biggest theories about who Neil was and how he's Max was. I don't buy this one. That if you. Because everything obviously is reversed in it. Pull up is a palindrome. Literally, the word pull up is a palindrome, but also the action is a palindrome. Everything's a palindrome. It's based on the Sator Square.

[Mark Kermode]

That was your favorite moment when you realized that, wasn't it?

[Jack Howard]

When I realized that you literally had.

[Mark Kermode]

I called you Mark.

[Jack Howard]

Phone down. But if you take the spelling of the less popular spelling of Maximilian, where it's an E instead of an A, and then you reverse it, the first four letters are Neil. I don't buy that at all. I think there is a much.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, that sounds contrived.

[Jack Howard]

I completely agree. But firstly, I don't think the film works if he's not Cat's son. I don't think there's any point emotionally to the. To the story if he's not. The thing that is. I think evidence beyond argument is there is a moment when they are going back to Stalsk 12 before the big war that happens between an army that's going backwards and an army that's going

[Mark Kermode]

forwards, which always looks to me like somebody double booked a football match. One team is playing end to end and the other team is playing side to side. Why are we even playing?

[Jack Howard]

We know they win when they're going back in time to that day on the big ship. Kat, Neil and the protagonist are all having a conversation.

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[Jack Howard]

and Kat's role is to go back and pretend to be a past version of herself.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

Which is another part of the story I will also get to about why I think this is an emotional story, but it's not telling you that it's an emotional story. And she says, if the world ends, I don't want those moments to be full of anguish if they're going to be my son's last. And the protagonist looks at Neil and then goes, they're not okay. And I think that is indisputable evidence.

[Mark Kermode]

That's what it is.

[Jack Howard]

That is who he is.

[Mark Kermode]

Right.

[Jack Howard]

So it's that kind of thing going on. Also, Kat is married to Sator, played by Kenneth Branagh, brilliantly played as he's doing. Who is your friend?

[Mark Kermode]

I know in some films I've been very likable, but in this one, not likable at all.

[Jack Howard]

I'm going to take you out to the side and put your balls in your mouth. We've all said that he is obviously trying to end the world as we know it by reversing entropy so that what we have done to the future people is we've destroyed the world. Basically. The climate is so bad that they have no choice but to turn back. And he is abusive. He's an abusive, horrible terrorist of a man. And he's abusive to his wife, Katie. She is literally scarred by him because he uses a reversing bullet to scar her, you know, but also she's emotionally scarred by him. But that's obviously represented physically with that scar. She goes back to a moment of trauma, literally, and realizes that she's always had the strength to rise above him. In that moment that we know about, where, like, she was told that, I'm gonna keep your son from you. If you ever leave me, I'm gonna keep your son from you. She revisits that moment of trauma and defeats him in that moment. And I think. I mean, you're telling me that there's nothing emotional about the fact that it's a film about. I mean, what other way of talking about, like, dealing with your trauma is it then going back in time and looking at that moment and understanding what's happened's happened. I have to accept it, and I have to become stronger and move on.

[Mark Kermode]

Anyway, I'm not saying there's no emotion in it. What I'm saying is that for me, it's the one in which the. The technique has got. You know, you said yourself that it's, you know, the ignorance is a weapon and these things are hidden. And how many times have you seen it now?

[Jack Howard]

I don't care to admit, okay, how.

[Mark Kermode]

How many times were you in before it started striking you that this is what it's actually about?

[Jack Howard]

So I understand what you're saying, and you're getting to the point of, like, should it take that?

[Mark Kermode]

No, I'm not. I mean, listen, there are films I know that, you know, that I love because on the ninth viewing, I, you know, I clicked in. But it's the one in which it's hit, you know, in terms of the layers of inception, it's down there with the rocks and the sea. In terms of interstellar, it's on the planet that, you know, it's like. It's a long way down. And. And the problem for me, and I'm not criticizing it because I. You know, as I said, I think the problem with it is me rather than. It is that I've. Twice. And both times I've been so bamboozled by the plot. And it may be partly that I'm just dumb.

[Jack Howard]

No, I don't think so at all. And I think you are. Most people. Most people are like, this is too obtuse. Like, this is. This is impenetrable. It's. It doesn't give a shit if you're catching up or not. It just goes, yes. And I don't think that makes you dumb. I also don't think it makes the film stupid either.

[Mark Kermode]

No, I. Neither do I. I just. It's. It's the one with the sort of least emotional residents. Weirdly, to come back to Insomnia. Insomnia does have emotional resonance, which I think is largely to do with the performances. I think Inception is the most overpoweringly emotionally resonant, which is funny because Interstellar is the one that's going.

[Jack Howard]

But I think most people would say that Interstellar, weirdly, is the one that's

[Mark Kermode]

pleading for your engagement.

[Jack Howard]

Well, I think what's interesting is that when Insteller came out, it wasn't critically that well received. It wasn't like panned. Sort of like, if we're going to use Rotten Tomatoes as a.

[Mark Kermode]

Let's not.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

But like, that's like. It's like a 70 something percent and he's usually in the, you know, high 80s, 90s.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

It wasn't nominated for an Oscar the same way Inception was.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

Like, it just.

[Mark Kermode]

I forget all of this because it just Because. Because Interstellar is the one that's lasted. Interstellar is the one which they do live performances of with the score. In fact, we had a letter just recently from somebody who went to see it and they said the organ was just soaring. And now everybody realizes, oh, yeah, that's,

[Jack Howard]

you know, and it's my. It's my girlfriend's favorite film. Like, she loves space, like all. I think it just hits people in a way that. I mean, we've talked about it before in Interstellar. I've very much relaxed on it over time. I love it for what it is now.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

And I used to criticize it so much more when I was a bit younger and a bit more full of, you know, but now I'm like, it's. It's positive. So much outweigh its negatives.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

I think it's still a bit silly and it is pining for your emotion.

[Mark Kermode]

It really, really is. I mean, it's. It's. Of all of Nolan's films, it's the one that literally gets on its knees and goes, love me.

[Jack Howard]

It's interesting to have heard recently when Timothy Chalamet was doing a. His Oscar campaign that went well was doing screenings of films he was in with either directors or other actors that were in it. And one of them that he did was with Nolan. And I'd never seen Nolan look so relaxed. It was very interesting. He's using him prim proper. I'm definitely a film director, but in this he was a bit more chill. And I've never heard him admit something like this, but he was saying that critics and the like had referred to him as a cold filmmaker. And he took that personally. And that's kind of what inspired him to make Interstellar feel so emotional. And it is interesting to hear that. Like, he was responding to. To criticism, which to me, he's always felt a little bit like, I do what I want.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

And nothing in. Nothing penetrates.

[Mark Kermode]

But that's interesting, particularly because, weirdly enough, I've interviewed Nolan a couple of times, but I met him once, which is different to interviewing somebody.

[Jack Howard]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

I met him in the bookshop of the bfi, and I had written a bfi, Modern Classics, on Silent Running. And I gave him a copy of it, and he very graciously accepted it. You know, he was. You know, he knew this exactly, though he knows who I am. But he was like. He was nice about it. But the interesting thing about Silent Running is that Silent Running was made by Doug Trumbull specifically as a response to having spent four years working on Stanley Kubrick's 2001, which was a film which he said, the most sympathetic character is a computer that tries to kill everyone. And he deliberately made an emotional movie. And Silent Running is one of my favorite films. And I had the sense that it. That Nolan would feel the same. And I discovered that he is indeed a fan of that film. And of course, the thing with Silent Running is. In the same way as Interstellar makes no sense whatsoever, but the emotion of it is the thing which you know, which you know, which. Which catches you. I still think that the most emotional moment in any Nolan film is the Prestige, when you realize what's going on. And I think that's the perfect example of the machinations of the plot, you know, the mousetrap of the plot, as it were. You know, the thing that kills the bird is. Oh, my God. You don't. You have no idea that that's what was at stake. Every time they do the trick.

[Jack Howard]

Yes. The. The thing that people are willing to sacrifice to be the best.

[Mark Kermode]

Exactly. Exactly. And I think it really is genuinely heartbreaking because it. It's. It's about losing yourself as opposed to losing somebody else. And I. I.

[Jack Howard]

Literally losing yourself.

[Mark Kermode]

Literally losing yourself over and over and over again. And I. I still find myself thinking. Because, you know, the Prestige is. It's like. I am very aware of this. The Prestige is the one that narky film critics.

[Jack Howard]

Oh, you like choice?

[Mark Kermode]

It's a smart choice. Yes. Which one do you like? Interstellar. Marvelous. Inception. Everybody Likes that? Yes. Oh, well done. You want. You know, But. But actually the really smart choice, and I'm. I'm really guilty of this, is Prestige. But I'm telling you, the reason it's prestige is firstly, it's got great performances. But secondly, because that is genuinely. And I didn't see it coming is the other thing.

[Jack Howard]

Yes, I think you're right. I don't. What's interesting is I like the Prestige. I don't particularly love re watching it. I'm a big re watcher guy, which is why Tenet, I think the more you give to it, the more it gives back to you. And you can find these things if you're looking for them. If you are looking for just like. Like a casual watch. If you are. If you're not. If you're not going to invest time in it. I understand why you might look at Tenet and be like, that's the ugly duckling. I get it. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to this. Yeah. But like, I do. I do. I understand why people would think that, because it is hard to get into. But it's in now and it's directly inspired. But I don't really. I don't love re watching the Prestige. I don't love. I think Memento is really brilliant, but it's also really, like, darkly melancholic and like, I don't think that's fun to rewatch. Here's an interesting one which we haven't mentioned and I think is probably arguably his best film, the one he won best picture, best Director for Oppenheimer. That is weirdly a comfort watch for me. Isn't that strange?

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

I love the rhythm that Nolan makes movies. And I think that Oppenheimer's rhythm is something that, like, again, it scratches my brain. It, like there's something about it that makes me feel like, ah, I'm on a good. I'm on a good ride here.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. So I'd like to make a suggestion because I think we're gonna have to

[Jack Howard]

carry on, aren't we?

[Mark Kermode]

Here's what we're gonna do. Let's draw this to a close now on this point. Then we'll pick up on this that you've said that. That what you think is at the center of Tenet, which is the one that I found slightly emotionally cold, was the idea, you know, that it's a family. It's a thing about family being pulled apart. Obviously. At the center of the Odyssey is a story about family being pulled apart.

[Jack Howard]

So it's what Nolan's been making moves about over and over and over again, is it?

[Mark Kermode]

So let's park this here and let's pick this up in the next one. Well, there we go. I hope you enjoyed the first part of our ongoing discussion about Christopher Nolan. If people have enjoyed it, Jack, what should they do?

[Jack Howard]

You know, they like it. They subscribe to the channel. They can leave a review on the podcast if they enjoy the podcast.

[Mark Kermode]

A big thing. Leave a review because apparently that's a big thing.

[Jack Howard]

As long as it's nice.

[Mark Kermode]

As long as it's nice, yes. And if you want to hear more Movie Conversation with me and Simon Mayo, Kermit and Mayo's Take is available wherever you get your podcasts. We will be back talking more Christopher Nolan very soon.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

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[Mark Kermode]

Hello, this is Simon Mayo. And this is Mark kermode.

[Jack Howard]

He's the UK's best and most trusted film critic.

[Mark Kermode]

He's a best selling writer, broadcaster and national treasure.

[Jack Howard]

Far too kind. Kermode and Mayo's Take has all the reviews you need and star guests such

[Mark Kermode]

as Sir Ian McKellen.

[Jack Howard]

Nice to be with you. Emma Stone.

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That sounds like something I would love to be a part of.

[Mark Kermode]

Ewan McGregor. I'm very good. How are you doing?

[Jack Howard]

Kate Blanchett what was that word you used to Cattywampus? Kermoda.

[Mark Kermode]

Mayors take all the film you need. Available wherever you get your podcasts.