Loading summary
Transcript153 lines
- [00:00]
A
I believe you are one decision away from a different life.
- [00:04]
B
But why do you think that's so hard for people to understand?
- [00:07]
A
Why are we giving the worst to the people that we love the most?
- [00:11]
B
I know for a fact that it was her who sold this to the media.
- [00:15]
A
You can always leave. Any relationship, any dining room table, any text chain. You're not stuck. That's a lie you tell yourself.
- [00:23]
B
I hope you know how many lives you've changed. Fucking years.
- [00:28]
A
You can, too.
- [00:30]
B
This is more than a show. It's a window into my world and the stories that make it meaningful. Welcome to Chloe in Wonderland Number one. So honored and thankful that you agreed to do this podcast with me. I've seen videos and interviews of you from years and years ago. And so the years that you have been this person, and, yes, there's been growth and evolution, but you've never lost sight of who you are authentically and that I'm so in love with.
- [01:04]
A
Well, I think I have lost sight of who I am. And for most of my life, I really struggled. I mean, whether it was crippling anxiety or having ADHD and not knowing or dyslexia, not knowing. And so it wasn't until I hit my 40s and I got myself into a situation. And we all find ourselves in these situations in life where the life that you thought you were going to have is not the one that you're in. And for me, what that meant is my husband and I found ourselves $800,000 in debt. Three kids under the age of 10. Friends and family had invested in the business, and I had never had a vision for my life of being an alcoholic or getting divorced or not being able to get out of bed. I mean, Chloe, it got to the point where I was the kind of person that would literally lay in bed and hit the snooze button four or five times a morning, and I was hungover, and I would lay in that bed, and I would stare at the ceiling, and I would think about the problems, and I would think about how much I hated my husband and how ashamed I was at where we are in life. And my kids would be standing next to the bed, and they were the reason why I would finally get up, right? And then, of course, when I got up, oh, my gosh, it wasn't like I was some, like, kind of person. I'm, like, screaming at them. And so they start their mornings like this. And how can you expect your kids to have a good day at school if they start with you screaming at them? And every step of the way, I was just like, why am I doing this? And why am I so angry? And why am I always doing things that I know I shouldn't be doing? And what happens in life, and this is what I've learned the hard way, is that you don't change until you're ready to change.
- [03:00]
B
Yeah.
- [03:01]
A
And for me, that kind of defining moment in my life came on a Tuesday morning in February in 2008.
- [03:09]
B
Wow.
- [03:10]
A
And I woke up like I had for six months in a row. And the anxiety was pinning me to the bed like a gravity blanket. And, you know, I knew I needed to get up. I knew I needed to look for a job. I knew I needed to ask for help. I knew I needed to tell my friends what was going on. But have you ever been in a situation in your life where you know what you need to do, but you just can't make yourself do it?
- [03:38]
B
Of course. I remember I was married, and my ex husband had a drug addiction. And I knew that his addiction always heightened. He was in the NBA, and I knew his addiction always heightened when he had his off season, because idle time is the devil's playground. And so I remember he was asked to go, I think, to Team usa, if I remember correctly. And I was begging, please, please go to Team usa. And I was pushing. And I remember he just looked at me and said, you can't want it more than I do. And even though, like, we've done rehabs and this, and because you could fake it, you go to rehab for 45 days just to appease everyone else, get them off my back, but if you're not doing it for you. But I remember when he said, you can't want it more than me. He's like, do you want to suit up? Because you can't suit up, and I don't want it. And I remember I was like. It was so profound. I was. It's so silly because I. I know that. But I wanted it so badly because I wanted to help him and to get him, like, feel the motivation and feel good, but he just wasn't in that place. And I just was like, I know. I know what I need to do. And it took me a long time to get to. Then I had to file for divorce. But that came after. But that was a very pivotal moment in my life, because I remember that step being the first one that I was like, yeah, I can't want it more than you. I can't want your life more than you.
- [05:06]
A
Wanting that for somebody is A amazing thing. It means you love somebody. The problem in my life is that I went about it in the exact opposite way that you should go about it. See, I was always working against human wiring, and I never knew it. And so in the example that you just shared, what was happening there is the truth. Human beings only change when they feel like it. And see, we all have a fundamental need to feel in control of our lives. Now, this is all stuff that I have only learned recently. I mean, I am the textbook for screwing things up and falling in a hole or digging one and then lying in the bottom of a hole and being like, when is somebody coming? Isn't somebody going to pay my bills and make my dreams come true?
- [05:52]
B
And like you said, no one is coming.
- [05:54]
A
Yes. And at some point, you're going to realize you don't need anybody. And as long as you are focused on everybody else, you'll never actually see the truth, which is you have everything in you to pick yourself up, to admit what you want. And sometimes if you don't know what you want, just tell yourself what you don't want.
- [06:22]
B
Right?
- [06:22]
A
Like, I didn't know in the darkest moments of my life, like that moment being 41 and just about to lose everything, I didn't know what I wanted. It's not like in that moment when you're in a hole, you're literally like, I think I want to be a motivational speaker. That's not what happens. You basically go, I don't want to live my life like this, and I don't want to lose my marriage, and I don't want to be a emotional bitch all the time to my kids. I don't want to see my house go under, under bankruptcy. And if you know what you don't want, just invert it, right?
- [07:02]
B
I think what's something that's also so aspirational about you and what people don't talk about enough, I think, in society is what you just said. You had all these failures. And then at 41, I believe you said, was when your life sort of made that switch. So I. I just turned 40, and my 30s were a really tough decade for me. And I did either a lot of jobs or I bet on myself in a lot of different ways. And there were things that didn't go the way I wanted them to. A lot more failures than successes. And I took a hit on my confidence. All these things.
- [07:36]
A
Well, how could you not?
- [07:37]
B
How could you not?
- [07:38]
A
Your emotional and, like, mindset response to something that hurts you or that didn't go as planned is to be disappointed or to have you question whether or not you can trust certain people. For you to be heartbroken when somebody that you love is not able to do the very hard work, to get sober or to show up in the way that you deserve to have somebody show up, it's a sign that you're mentally well.
- [08:07]
B
Okay, good.
- [08:08]
A
When you react to those things in the way that you did, and that's an important thing to understand, because if you then think something's wrong with you because this person won't heal, now what's happened is you've taken on the burden of actually making everyone else happy. And I didn't understand this for a very, very long time. And so there were two things that have fundamentally changed my life. The first one is that there is a skill in life, Chloe, that absolutely any human being can learn, and they need to learn it. And the skill is very simple. You need to know how to push yourself to take the small, annoying, frustrating, boring actions no matter how you feel. And what I learned the hard way is that in any moment, you can override your feelings with action. And so the first thing that I created that really kind of turned my life in a different direction, and I believe you are one decision away from a different life.
- [09:11]
B
100% one decision.
- [09:14]
A
Now, one decision does not change everything overnight. One decision turns the first domino in an entirely new direction, and you tip it. And one decision actually turns your life on an entirely new trajectory. And for me, the decision that truly changed my life was deciding to get up on a Tuesday morning when I didn't feel like it, and all I did was count backwards. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. The same way that NASA launches a rocket ship. Because I figured if I'm laying here in bed, consumed with anxiety, maybe if I launch myself out of bed, Chloe, if I launch myself, maybe if I move fast enough, I won't be in this bed when the depression, the overwhelm, and the anxiety strikes. And by God, it worked. Yeah, the counting. The reason why it works is because counting backwards. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. It interrupts all the negativity that is programmed into your mind from your past, from what other people have said, from all the mistakes that you've made, from the anxiety, the worry, the procrastination, all that stuff. The people that have broken your trust, that's all right here, and it is real. But you still get to choose, right? And when you start counting backwards. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. You move from here to here. And this is the part of the brain right behind your forehead that actually helps you take control of what you do next. It helps you learn new behavior. And as you count backwards, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Now we're leveraging physics. This is so cool. All I have to do is count backwards. And now it's like neuroscience and physics. I didn't know any of this at the time, by the way. I just knew I created some little trick that was given to me by God. And now all of a sudden, I'm 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, picking up the phone and asking for help. 5, 4, 3, 2', 1. I'm going out the door and going for a walk. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. I'm putting down the phone and I'm picking up a book or listening to a podcast that might help me. And slowly but surely one 5 second decision at a time, I learned this skill that I want everybody on the planet to know, which is if you can in a moment recognize that your feelings are taking over and you're starting to drift toward the things that you always do, you avoid, you procrastinate, you self doubt, you make yourself wrong, that in that moment you can develop a skill of I actually move in the direction of my values and my dreams. I move in the direction of taking care of myself. And that is what began a whole new life for me. And we all need to know this.
- [11:57]
C
This episode of Chloe in Wonderland is sponsored by Better Help. As the clock strikes midnight on January 1st, you're handed a gift. 365 blank pages. A brand new year waiting for you to write your story. What will it say? Maybe 2025 is the year for a bold plot twist, a leap of faith, a new chapter of discovery. Or maybe it's time to revisit an old storyline that you've been wanting to rewrite. Either way, the beauty of life isn't about fleeting resolutions that lose steam by February. It's about picking up the pen day after day and being the author of your own journey. But sometimes even the best writers need a co author, someone to help brainstorm, edit, or navigate the trickier parts of the narrative. And that's where therapy comes in. For me, therapy has been like having a trusted editorial partner. You learn how to turn the messiest drafts of life into something meaningful. Therapy teaches you how to set boundaries, how to face challenges with resilience, and how to embrace new chapters with confidence. Therapy isn't just for people recovering from a major trauma. It's for anyone ready to invest in their growth and write a more Fulfilling story. And that's why BetterHelp is such an incredible resource. It's fully online, making therapy convenient and affordable for millions of people worldwide. With access to over 30,000 credentialed therapists specializing in a wide array of needs, you can find someone who truly understands your unique story. And if the first therapist you try isn't the right fit, you can switch at no extra cost. It's all about finding the support that works for you. So as you step into 2025, ask yourself, what do you want this year's story to be? Whatever it is, you don't have to write it alone. Write your story with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.comchloe today to get 10% off your first month. That's better. Help. H e l p.com Chloe now that.
- [13:45]
B
I'm doing so many new things in my 40th year.
- [13:49]
A
Yeah.
- [13:50]
B
And I am so excited. And I feel like this resurgence in me, and I felt like my 30s were this time that I sort of needed to really stumble and fall and make these failures and mistakes. Not that I'm not going to make more, but I've learned this resilience and how to pick myself back up. I saw one of your podcasts, and you had this doctor, and I forget his name, but he was saying about manifestation.
- [14:14]
A
Oh, Dr. Doty.
- [14:15]
B
Yes, Dr. Doty. And how you can reprogram that soundtrack in your brain. But it genuinely does change the rest of your day. And sometimes we just need those pep talks, even to ourselves or writing things down.
- [14:29]
A
It's even more than a pep talk, because here's what I want you to consider. Everyone's obsessed with morning routines right. Right now. And they should be, because how you start the day is actually how it ends up. And there's tremendous amount of research about the first thing in the morning that you consume. And if you put garbage in, you're gonna have garbage out in terms of your emotions and your feelings. I mean, if you pick up the phone first thing in the morning, you are actually allowing the entire Internet to come into your bedroom and into your mind. And now you have put everybody on the planet in front of you and your dreams and your mental health. And so one of the biggest habits that anybody could start to do, and nobody will, nobody will, because you don't want to. And people only change when they want to. But I'm gonna tell you what will change your life is don't sleep with your phone. Literally put your phone in the bathroom. I do this probably 95% of the time, put the phone in the bathroom. Because then when you wake up, you don't actually grab the phone and look at it in bed. And if you are in a moment in your life where you're tired or overwhelmed, or you're chronically comparing yourself to other people, or you're stressed out, or you're not achieving your goals, or you're not actually as happy as you deserve to be, the problem isn't you. The problem is all the power that you give to other people.
- [15:53]
B
Well, I love what you said in your TED Talk about this. You said it's, you could have anything you want. And you say it's simple. It's not easy. Because essentially it is really simple. But no one really wants to go to the gym if they need to lose weight or no one wants to put down. They would, you know, if you have a choice between pasta or pizza and broccoli and whatever, salmon.
- [16:15]
A
Well, there's a lot of science around this. And I personally find that it is so helpful to kind of understand what's going on in the background. Cause then I don't feel like a loser idiot. And I realized, oh, wait, this is just basic brain wiring. Like, why aren't they telling our kids? And especially if my kids had been in school at your kids age, they should be telling kids this. Our brains are wired to do what's easy, full stop. That's why we sit on the couch. It's easier than going to the gym. That's why we avoid the conversation. It's easier than picking up the phone and starting the conversation. That's why we navigate our lives around people's moods. Because it's easier than actually being a mature adult and calling people out in a kind way. Because it's easier. And when you understand that you're hardwired to do what's easy, and you're also hardwired to resist what feels hard. You now understand how basic wiring sets you up to never change.
- [17:13]
B
Right.
- [17:14]
A
And it's why you always are going to need to push yourself. And I want to go back to the example of the comparison, right? So comparing yourself to other people is normal. That's not the problem. The problem is what you're doing with the comparison. And so this brings in this thing.
- [17:32]
B
Like the power you're giving it.
- [17:33]
A
Oh, you're looking at it completely wrong. And then, of course, you make yourself feel bad for doing something that's normal. And so I'm gonna like, flip this on its head for you. So the second thing that changed my life Was discovering the let them theory. And it's a very simple mindset hack that has two steps. The first step is whenever somebody is stressing you out or annoying you or making you worry or feel bad about yourself or hurting you or pissing you off, that's normally the one for me. You're just gonna say, let them. And it's kind of crazy because the second you say let them, you instantly release control. And then what you're gonna do is you're gonna say, let me. Let me remind myself that in life and in this moment, there are only three things I can actually control. That's it. I can control what I think about this thing. I can control what I do or I don't do in response to this situation. And I get to control what I'm going to do with my emotions. Am I going to allow myself to feel them, or am I going to let them run me over? That's all you have. And the problem in life is that we all have a hardwired need, Chloe, to feel in control. It's what makes you feel safe and it's why you want to feel in control of your thoughts and your future and your relationship and the amount of money you make and who your friends are and all this stuff. You want to feel in control because it's what makes you feel calm and confident and safe. We're never going to get rid of that hardwiring. Everybody needs to feel in control. And the one thing you'll never be able to change is another human being.
- [19:14]
B
Right?
- [19:14]
A
People only change when they're ready.
- [19:16]
B
But why do you think that's so hard for people to understand? Do you know what I mean? I know for me, when I was younger with my ex husband, I was young. I got married at 24. I got divorced. I think I was 29 or 30. But you're so young. And so I understand. But now I'm so much better at. I think maybe. Cause I went through that experience that I, for me, I'm so good at that. But I know like my mom, I always try to tell her mom, they're not gonna change or like let them do their thing and they will change when they're ready.
- [19:51]
A
Right?
- [19:51]
B
But. And not just her. So many people. And it is so hard for, I think, so many adults to let them or just to accept like people, I think. And some people are just instinctual fixers and they want to do that. But you can't fix other people. Like if people are broken, they have to fix themselves.
- [20:11]
A
That's True. But knowing it up here doesn't mean you do it in your body.
- [20:16]
B
Right?
- [20:16]
A
And for me personally, I can't put intellectual concepts to use. You know, I have wanted to let things go my entire life. I've never been able to let anyone, anything go because I'm competitive, I'm type A. And plus, when I say, when somebody says to me, you got to let it go, Mel, I'm like, well, that feels like defeat and I don't want to let it go. I'm going to hold onto this thing like a dog with a bone because I don't want to. And the difference in discovering let them and let me is when you say let them, what's happening is you're not letting go. You're rising above it. You're seeing somebody or seeing a situation as it is probably for the very first time and you're detaching when you say let them. And you also recognize something really important, that your time and energy is your single most valuable resource in life.
- [21:12]
B
Yes, it is.
- [21:13]
A
Because where you pour your time and energy is what your experience of life is. And so when you say let them, you stop putting time and energy into someone or something or a dynamic that just is beyond your control. You recognize that your time and energy matters. So you're going to take that time and energy back and then you're going to say, let me, let me remind myself that I get to choose where I put my time and energy.
- [21:41]
B
Are you good doing this? My biggest fear, because I am at this stage like sort of a helicopter mom because there's just so many scary things out there.
- [21:51]
A
Well, you also have very different circumstances than most people. And so here's the thing. It's a sign that you're mentally well, that you are concerned about the well being of your children. And it is important that you are really a helicopter parent about their safety. But here's where I want to change the way you look at this. Do you want to know who's the hardest working kid in a classroom? The one who's failing? The kid who's getting a. Yeah, they're putting in a lot of work, but the person who is struggling is working harder than anybody else. Same thing's true with all your friends. The friend that is struggling with their weight, they're working harder at their health than the person that goes to the gym every day. Why? Because every human being knows when they're not thriving.
- [22:45]
B
Right?
- [22:46]
A
Everyone knows when you're giving up on yourself. Every one of your girlfriends. That's In a relationship with somebody that treats them poorly, knows it, they don't need you and I.
- [22:56]
B
People look at people so differently because that is. It's such a beautiful way to think and to look at somebody through those eyes.
- [23:03]
A
I mean, was it helpful for people to come in when you were with, like, your ex husband and be like, you should be with somebody better. You should be putting up with this. Does that help?
- [23:10]
B
No.
- [23:10]
A
Why?
- [23:11]
B
Yeah. Cause you're trying and you're fighting for it with all of your might. For sure. For sure.
- [23:19]
A
And what you need and what your kids need, and what we all need is first, we need people in our lives to let us, to see us, to accept us, to stop judging and to truly approach these moments where someone in your life is in a situation where they're not reaching their potential. Not with judgment and I know best and pressure.
- [23:43]
B
But you're good at doing that with your own children, too. I am now.
- [23:47]
A
Because when I rush in and step in, you can help. Well, for sure. But, you know, when I rush in and step in, you know what? I'm actually communicating that I don't think you're capable.
- [23:56]
B
I don't believe in them.
- [23:57]
A
Correct.
- [23:58]
B
Right.
- [23:58]
A
And every time that you do that, you're reinforcing. You're not strong enough to face this disappointment. You're not able to do this on your own without mom rushing in. And when you take a little step back and you have your arm around them, you're not doing the work for them. You have your arm around them, you're actually saying to them, I actually. I believe in you, and I'm going to be here and I'm going to walk by your side, but I'm not going to plow the way. And I can give you an example. So when our daughter was. She was in middle school and she started waking up in the middle of the night and having this terrible anxiety. And she'd come downstairs and I would just let her climb in bed, and for the first night or two, it was fine. But then it started to become a real problem because she didn't want to go back to her room. So for six months, I let her sleep on the floor of our bedroom. And you know what I did? I actually made her anxiety worse. Because anxiety is so misunderstood. Anxiety is a moment of uncertainty, which we all have, and some of us have them every day. It's a moment of uncertainty when you doubt your capacity and capability to get through it.
- [25:14]
B
Right.
- [25:14]
A
That's all that it is. It's just a little alarm. Things are uncertain. I'm a little nervous. I'm a little afraid. And then we. Instead of just taking a breath and saying, I have the ability to do this. And reminding ourselves, like, instead of going up into our heads and going, well, what if this? And what if this? And working ourselves up, which only makes the fear and the anxiety worse, instead of going up in our heads, drop back down into your body, take a deep breath, because then you reconnect with yourself and you say to yourself, I'm capable of doing this, even though it's kind of scary.
- [25:47]
B
Well, this was something starting this podcast was something that I had so much anxiety about because it's new. It's one thing that I'm on tv. It's one thing that you can be very conversational with someone. It's another thing if I'm on your show and you interview me. But steering a ship is a very different situation for me. At least that's how I built it up. I am someone who. I'm very spiritual. I like to pray, but it's my. I'm more conversational. And even today, when I was coming here to see you, I was just like. Like I was DMing you and like, I'm so. Like, you just were with Oprah. She gave you the most insane cosign of anyone's life. Like, I literally. My eyes were tearing up of joy for you. I love what you said about being present. You said, I have not been present for so many things in my life, but I'm not gonna miss this one. Or something like that. I'm paraphrasing. And that was such a profound statement.
- [26:46]
A
So all you need to do, because here's what happens for all of us, and I wanna come back to helping you use let them and let me. Because the person who hit play on this episode who's spending time with us right now is struggling with the exact same thing that you're struggling with. And it's the exact same thing that I struggled with profoundly up until two years ago. And it goes back to this notion of the power that we give to other people and learning to say let them and recognizing what's in your control and what's not in your control and then taking the power back by saying, let me helps you achieve the things that you want. It helps you feel the way that you wanna feel, and it helps you leverage all of the dreams and the desires that you have. So let's talk about an example that I think applies to you launching this podcast. Okay. So, you know, when you open up social media and you are picking a photo. And for me, like, I'm picking a photo and then I'm like, this is how I used to be. I'm like, okay, well, you know, I don't like that. And then I pick a different photo or then I'm like putting out a filter on the photo and then I'm writing a caption. I'm like, is this too much? And then I put a little emoji on there and then I'm like, oh, back. And then I finally like hit draft. If everybody were to open up their social media, you would see thousands of saved drafts. That is the graveyard of your dreams and self expression. And why does that happen? I'm going to explain why that happens. In the moment that you're picking a photo to post online and you start to analyze the photo and analyze the caption and you start to think, is this good enough? Is it too much? Is it this? Is it that? Is this going to be for who?
- [28:29]
B
Right?
- [28:30]
A
For who? In that moment, we just defaulted to thinking about what someone else is going to think, feel, or do in response to what we're about to do.
- [28:44]
B
Something that you'll probably never even meet.
- [28:47]
A
Even worse. You ready?
- [28:48]
B
Hmm.
- [28:50]
A
You can't control it.
- [28:51]
B
Right?
- [28:52]
A
I'm sure there's tremendous number of people in your life that have high expectations for you. Whether it's your sisters or your mom or your kids or your business partners or the world around you. Learning to let people be disappointed will change your life. And when it comes to your family, this is something that I've struggled with because I love my family. It's a huge value of mine. Right? I want to make sure everybody's happy. But when you learn that disappointment's a good thing because when your mom's disappointed that you can't show up for something, you know what that means? I mean, she loves you.
- [29:24]
B
And I also read something about children that you in your household should be the one. They should hear no. They should be disappointed within their own home so they know how to process those feelings and do all of that. You don't want to be yes men to your children, always doing what they want, and then you put them out in the real world and a stranger tells them no. And they don't even know how to respond to that. I think the most, not in such heavy, negative ways, but I do think it is our responsibility.
- [29:54]
A
Well, so for parents here, let's talk about emotional immaturity, because it's just off the rails right now. So being able to be.
- [30:03]
B
And around the holidays, it's off the rails.
- [30:05]
A
Oh, for sure. Because everybody's all excited and heightened. And again, like the let them theory is something to use with adults, but the adult that you're gonna use it with is yourself. And so I choose to believe that almost every adult that you meet is an 8 year old in a big body. It is so liberating to think this. Everybody's just an 8 year old in a big body. That's all that we are. And when you look at it that way, you're not gonna be afraid of people. The next time you run into somebody who's got a very narcissistic personality style, you're not gonna be nervous, you're just being like, oh, let them. There's a little eight year old throwing a tantrum. Not my job to parent them. So I'm going to let them because I know that there's nothing I can do to change that situation over there. And I also know my time and energy is literally way more valuable than trying to deal with this. So I'm going to let them because I get to choose. Let me decide how much time and energy I pour into that relationship. And I want to remind you and the person that's spending time with us right now that you can always leave. Any relationship, any dining room table, any text chain, any conversation, any date, any interview, any job, you're not stuck. That's a lie you tell yourself that keeps you stuck.
- [31:16]
B
Like, at least for me with my, I think my. I know I've had and I have the most incredible mom and my sister Courtney. And I like, sometimes she'll say memory from childhood. And it's very different from my memory, but it was the same situation. I think we sometimes give parents, we give them too much power where we think they're these super. And when I look back and look, oh my gosh, if I was 20 something years old with four kids, like, I would have lost my mind. Like, I have so much empathy for maybe why something was. I was responded to in a way that I wouldn't respond to my kids now. But I'm older and I know more this or that. I think I'm sure your children do the same with you.
- [31:59]
A
Well, here's the thing that's important to understand and it's something that I'm concerned about and I can tell in the question you are too. Like there's an extraordinary rise in estrangement and people ghosting each other and cutting people out of their lives. And to me that's all a sign of emotional immaturity if you can't have the conversation. It's one thing to have the conversation with somebody and talk about what is bothering you. And then you have to let them. And if a person cannot meet you where you need to meet, where you need them to meet you, then it's let me, let me choose how much time and energy I'm gonna pour into this. And so you're always in control. Cause you're in control of your time and energy and what access you give to people. But if you haven't had the conversation, then you're the one who's the problem. And the thing that I think you're talking about is that it is so easy to look at your parents and judge. And I want the person listening and, and the person that they share this to, to really consider that this is your parents first time being a human being too. And they can only give you what they're capable of giving to themselves. Most of our parents never went to therapy. They didn't get the things that they needed in their life emotionally from their parents. And from generation to generation to generation, we get a little bit better. But if you don't like what's happening in your family or in any friendship or in your marriage, the power is not in the other person changing. The power is in you changing. You changing your mindset, you changing your approach, you changing the energy. That's the power. It just takes one person. And so it's important to realize that every single kid in a family has different parents, they have a different childhood. And everything that happens impacts them differently. And that is a medical and neurological fact. So if you and I sit here and we look back in time and I look at everything that has happened in my life, good or bad, I can sit here with you today, Chloe, and I can say, oh, I can see exactly how this all makes sense. I might not have liked it. I might have wished it had gone differently. I might have seen a lot of things that was not my responsibility and that should never have happened to me. But I can see how it all in this just beautiful, divine, sometimes crazy, like upsetting way it led me to this moment. Does that make sense?
- [34:34]
B
Complete sense. And this is not as. This isn't a woe is me thing. But my ex husband, I went through a really, it was a bad divorce. He cheated on me and drugs and all that stuff. But it was, this was in the era of like tabloids were huge. It was everywhere. And it was horrible. And then my ex, who I have two children with, he cheated on me when I was pregnant. But it was very public. But it wasn't nearly as bad as what I went through emotionally with the pregnancy I had with my daughter. But I could handle it. And I'm not sure if I can.
- [35:11]
A
I just said, how the hell did you handle it? No, I'm serious. Because I, you know, I'm bitching about being in debt and how it paralyzed me and the shame that I felt. But in those moments, how did you organize the strength to actually get through? I mean that with all sincerity, because I think there is something that I can learn that you can share. There is some way in which you dug deep, whether it was just anchoring down on your children or armoring up. But how did you actually get through that?
- [35:49]
B
Well, the crazy thing is I would draw back to the feelings I had with Lamar, or I would. Lamar was my first husband. Where I would say, okay, like, I sort of. I knew how to deal with this media scandal. And I was in Cleveland, Ohio. So, like, let me just stay here for a little bit. Cause that's where I gave birth. And I just sort of knew to stay away from the noise, which LA has a lot of noise. Stayed away from my phone. But I would say the biggest was I had a brand new baby. And I definitely isolated. I never left my house for a few months. I was just with her. I built this little cocoon for her and I. And it was the most magical experience. I was in denial, like, about all the noise. I didn't want to pay attention to it. Not in denial. I just don't want to focus on it.
- [36:35]
A
You didn't give power to it.
- [36:36]
B
I didn't give power to it.
- [36:38]
A
And that's the key.
- [36:39]
B
And that is the key.
- [36:40]
A
That's the key.
- [36:41]
B
But a lot of it's interesting because people who don't. And it wasn't intentional. I didn't know. I was just like, you know what? I'm not doing this. And I remember when Tristan had an affair, it was public. And I gave birth 48 hours later. And people were like, do you want him in the hospital room when you're giving birth? And it was my first baby. And I said, I do. And we're all gonna pretend. Cause of course, I had to have all my siblings in the room. And my mom and I said, we're gonna all. It's going to be hard for you guys, but let's all act like this didn't happen because my daughter's going to see this home footage one day and I don't want her to ever see to know this was I was thinking for my daughter.
- [37:23]
A
True.
- [37:24]
B
And I, I get sad if I ever see myself because I can tell I'm blank and it's an out of body experience. I just went into autopilot and I just went into. I'm, I'm not here. I was not present but my body was there. I gave birth. I did what I have to do. But it was for her. I thought of her and I was like, for her memories, I want her to know her dad was in the room. And then when it was done, you know, he went along as I was like, I can't talk to you. But like when I put my home camera down. But I made sure to do what I needed to do for her. But if it wasn't for my family, like we have such a close bond, but it doesn't have to be your blood family. I think if anyone's going through something, you have to have a tribe.
- [38:07]
A
If you are able to recognize what's in your control and what's not in your control. And when you start to live your life this way, which I see you doing as you navigate everything and you're recognizing that doesn't feel good. I'm going to let them, I'm done with that. I'm going to let them and then come back to, well, what do I want to do? What do I want to do? That's how you're going to continue to tap into your power. That's what you're going to teach your children, that the power is always in here. But just like drinking, you gotta stop drinking if you want to get sober. You have to stop trying to control everything you can't control if you want to take control of your own life. And I want to share one more thing that we were talking about earlier and that is on the topic of comparison. So comparing ourselves to everybody else, that is normal. Like we're all going to always be doing it. That's not the problem. The problem is what we do with it. So the problem with comparison is that we actually are using it to torture ourselves. And what I learned too late in life is that in the game of life, you're not actually competing with anybody. We're not playing against each other. We're actually playing with each other. And when you start to realize that other people can never, ever, ever block your way, other people lead the way. Only you can block your own way.
- [39:31]
B
Right.
- [39:32]
A
And when you release control and you stop using comparison as a battering arm. Oh, Kim's doing this and, you know, Chloe's doing that, Kylie's doing this, and Kendall's doing. Let them.
- [39:42]
B
Right. Well, it's so funny. When I was younger, it was so much competitiveness, and I was. I want that. And why does she have. It could be clothes. It could be anything.
- [39:51]
A
Yes.
- [39:52]
B
And now the older that I've gotten, when I see Kim or Kylie or Kendall, anyone doing something, it's not competitive. It's motivating.
- [40:01]
A
Yes.
- [40:01]
B
And that's what we've turned it into because we're not competitive. Work wise. I'm just like, holy shit, Kim did this or Kourt's doing this. I'm like, okay, now, this isn't like, the juices are flowing. I'm, like, excited to do something too.
- [40:15]
A
Yes.
- [40:16]
B
I don't know if that happens because we are less competitive. Maybe the older we get, or maybe it's just us realizing, you're right. We're in this together. And we do come from a family that, like, two heads are better than 1, 3 is better than 2. It's not like I'm the head honcho here. Like, we're not that type of people in our family. But definitely when we first started out, I think there was a ton of competitiveness.
- [40:40]
A
Of course. Of course.
- [40:41]
B
And a lot of. But even society pinning. They would pin us sisters against each other and let them. But back in the day, we were like, we would always ask each other, why do they. The questions would be, do you guys ever date the same men? Or, like, fight over this? And we're like, what a weird question. Like, we. We didn't understand why they always wanted us to be combative or fight. It had to always be salacious and negative. I mean, now I know why. But, yes, now it's more of a inspirational motivational situation as opposed to, oh, well, I need what she has. Why does she get that and I don't? It's not that tantrum.
- [41:16]
A
But see, for the person that's listening, I think every one of us struggles with this. And another big revelation for me was that the things that you're jealous of are deeply personal and they're important. Jealousy is a really important emotion because jealousy is just blocked desire. Like, I'm not jealous of things I don't want. I'm not jealous of anybody who's driving a Lamborghini. I don't freaking want one.
- [41:43]
B
Right.
- [41:44]
A
I'm not jealous of a penthouse in Dubai. I don't Wanna live there, right? Doesn't even. Like my pulse. Doesn't even skip a beat. I don't care. But if I see that somebody. I remember when my buddy Jay Shetty launched a podcast. I was like, jay, he beat me to it. And we all have this at every level in our life. I'm talking about Jay because he's a peer of mine in business, and we're good friends. But I felt the same way about my friends kitchen cabinets. You know, I was in my 30s. I felt the same way about my other friend who had these, like, amazing party favors for her wedding. And I'm like, mine sucked now. And so the thing about it is that you only feel that you've been waking up every day for 8, 15 years, doing the reps, the boring, tedious, annoying, in the mud work to get where you are. And your life has been the biggest gift. You want to know why? You have been brave enough to be public about it?
- [42:49]
B
Thank you.
- [42:50]
A
So you have revealed formulas and mistakes and things that we can all learn from. And that's a beautiful, generous, extraordinary thing to do. And so for anybody that is following you, that has ambition, the message here today that I want to make sure the person listening gets is that you got to let Chloe be wildly successful and happy. You got to let her be her fullest, most amazing self because she's showing you what's possible and she's generous about how she's doing it, which means if she's chipped away at this for 18 years, you can too. I mean it. I mean it. It's so true. Like, you have to stop literally giving so much power.
- [43:39]
B
This is turning into a. I'll do it. Yeah, here we go.
- [43:44]
A
No, I'm serious. You have to stop. Like, you have. I'm so happy you're launching this podcast because you lead your life fully in the open and learning how to let people have their opinions and their negative thoughts, that's a superpower.
- [44:01]
B
Thank you.
- [44:02]
A
Because you know that the power is in your example, the power is in your energy. Because here's the thing that I Learned too late. 54 years old, it took me this long to learn. And it was saying, let them and let me. That made me realize. Seeking admiration and love out there and chasing it only leaves you feeling empty.
- [44:25]
B
It's a dangerous game because you can't control it, right?
- [44:29]
A
And it means you have to behave for it or show up for it. And the power's actually in here. When you're proud of yourself, you don't actually think about other people.
- [44:39]
B
Yeah, you're so right.
- [44:40]
A
And I spent 54 years thinking first about others, trying to make other people happy, worrying about what they're thinking, worrying about they're doing. And when I finally started to realize, the more I let other people be who they are and who they're not, actually the better my relationships get, because I get to choose. And the more I let other people live their lives and say what they're gonna say and think what they're gonna think and feel what they're gonna feel, the better my life gets. And the same is gonna be true with you. And, you know, there's so many young women that look up to you that really are gonna learn from you. And one of the things I hope that they learn is that it's the explaining a way of behavior that is you over.
- [45:21]
B
Yeah.
- [45:22]
A
And there's one other thing I want to share with you that I read. I read about your therapist. This thing with this. You had this therapist, the one that. Yeah. So can you tell me, like, I only read the Bustle article. And so can you just tell me a quick thing? Because I want to share something about trust.
- [45:40]
B
So when I was going through my divorce, we were doing couples counseling him. And I was like, our last. We were trying before we were gonna go to divorce. And I remember we had one on one sessions with the therapist, and then we did them as a couple. And I told this therapist something that my sisters didn't. Nobody knew except for her.
- [46:03]
A
Okay.
- [46:04]
B
And the next thing I know, it was all over in print. And I just remember, like, my heart sank. And there was not. And I know for a fact that it was her who sold this to the media. And I remember feeling so betrayed. But on. But I will say, like, I try to find the positive in anything and everything. And I was much heavier back in the day. I wasn't healthy. I don't care if you're heavy and you're healthy.
- [46:32]
A
Right.
- [46:32]
B
But I wasn't healthy. I didn't like the way I looked. I didn't feel good about myself because I was really miserable. And I was using food as a coping mechanism.
- [46:40]
A
Of course. Yeah.
- [46:41]
B
And it. Yes, I felt so betrayed by my therapist, but it's actually what got me to have this love for the gym. And because I needed a release. I needed a place that I could get on the treadmill and cry my eyes out. And I just needed a release of energy somehow. And it is what. So I found the silver lining in that, that I see a therapist now. I have One that I trust, and that's cause my sister Kim. But this person, I was like, everyone. I don't trust a soul. Everyone is a piece of. But it did make me have a love for the gym.
- [47:14]
A
Okay, so let's talk about trust. Because you've had a number of people that have betrayed your trust. And I think we have all had that experience, but you have had it a number of times. And so how did having a number of people in your life that you loved, that you poured your heart and soul into, betray you? How has that impacted you? Because I want to offer you something and a different way to think about trust.
- [47:44]
B
Sometimes I question my radar. Like, why am I not doing a good job at seeing certain things? But also when people are like, do you still believe in love or this or that? And I do, because I do believe that a lot of those journeys were for them to experience. And I just felt like I was strong enough to endure it. Cause I believe in God. And I do think that God knew it wouldn't break me. And so I do believe that. That's why, like, all the people that have ever wronged me, if I saw them tomorrow, I would say, hi, there's no. Like, I don't hang on to any of this stuff. I don't carry it with me. That's for them. And I honestly think that when you are kind and when you forgive someone for doing something, whether it be disgustingly horrible or just minor, I think it breaks them so much more that you forgave them. Like, they almost want to be like, well, I treated her like that because look how she's acting. Look how she's. I'm not an eye for an eye type of girl. I'm like, you know what? That was your journey.
- [48:46]
A
Well, if you are an eye for an eye type of person, you actually give the other person power. If you're the kind of person that if somebody breaks up with you, you want to get back at them, guess what? You're still in the relationship, and you've given them power.
- [48:58]
B
Right.
- [48:58]
A
And so the stronger move you're right, is to forgive. Because you're basically saying, this has no power over me. Because as long as I resent you and I hate you and I punish you, you still have power over me because it's impacting my emotions. And when it comes to trust, I think we get trust all wrong. Because we think it's about trusting the.
- [49:20]
B
Other person, trusting yourself.
- [49:23]
A
Correct.
- [49:24]
B
But that's what I've. I've even said this to Kim not too long ago said, how do. Like, if I've made so many choices that didn't turn out great, and I didn't see some of those situations. I didn't see the red flags or maybe the 27 different colored flags. I didn't see right away.
- [49:43]
A
Right?
- [49:45]
B
How do I. Then how do you start to learn to trust yourself again? Like, what can you do to strengthen that if you start doubting your own trust radar?
- [49:55]
A
It's a terrific question. And so what you're gonna do is this. So anytime that somebody's behavior starts to just go, hmm, you know that. You know. Cause that's how it starts, right? You're like, you gotta say, let them. And here's why I mean this. If you just take note in your mind, you're not actually doing anything physical. When you say to yourself, let them. You're really separating, and it's a little boundary, and you're going, okay.
- [50:27]
B
I remember my ex husband. I'm a drinker. I've never been a drug user or anything, but I have friends that on the weekends they'll party or whatever, but they go to work on Monday. I remember we were out in Vegas and there would, you know, there might have been a little partying going on with my ex husband. I was like, huh, Okay. I never dated someone that even did a little of that. And so I think the most was alcohol and weed. So to have a little bit more, I was like, okay, well, you know, maybe this is just how he blows off steam. In hindsight. I was like, I don't even wanna be with someone that does that, even just a little, because it could easily be a slippery slope. But you are in love, and you're like, it's fine. But that little thing. And then I remember it would turn into then, like two days in a row. And then. But a lot. I didn't find out for about a year and a half the extent of what was going on. He was really good at concealing it. But looking back, I was like, oh. But there were those Vegas weekends or those little things.
- [51:31]
A
So there's lots of things. And for. And, you know, some other examples might be you're on a date and somebody's rude to a waiter. Mm, interesting.
- [51:39]
B
Take note, right?
- [51:40]
A
Or they say they're gonna show up and they don't show up. Interesting. Take note. Or they only say I love you when they're drunk. Interesting.
- [51:48]
B
Take note.
- [51:49]
A
And the thing you need to do and why I love saying let them is because you're not allowing it a Lot of people are like, wait, when I say, let them, am I letting them walk all over me? No, you already are. When you say let them, you detach. You actually see who you're dealing with, probably for the first time. And then you get a little superior, like, let them. Okay, all right. So I'm with somebody that's rude. I'm with somebody that only says, I'm with somebody who doesn't want to put a label. I'm with somebody that is doing too much partying. Let them. And then remind yourself, this is who this person is. This is what you're signing up for. Because people only change when they feel like it. And then you've got to start saying, let me. Let me remind myself. I get to choose what kind of relationship I put time and energy into.
- [52:35]
B
And that's what I've been doing. And I've been so present in my life. I've been every little thing trying to just understand. Not necessarily fix, but try to understand and work through and regain my confidence, my strength and focus on my kids and work. But I've loved the break that I've taken, and I feel like it might go a little longer just because I. And I also feel there's so much power in being alone. I feel like so many people can't be alone these days. We live in a world where we either have to be on social media and show off to people or need acceptance and approval from all these things. But the power of being alone, but being genuinely happy is something that I've never experienced before until now. And I also appreciate all those things that I've gone through because it's given me empathy and understanding and all those things that I am excited to teach my kids about. I hope you know just how meaningful you taking the time to be here and do this with me and just to accept doing this with me. And I mean, the whole thing, I will, for the rest of my career, of anything that I'm doing, I will always remember this moment and all that you've done for me and this talk, the pep talk, everything. And I just want to say thank you so much. It's meant the world to me.
- [53:56]
A
Oh, my gosh. Well, thank you. And so if I can ever, ever do anything to support you, if I can ever do anything to, like, help you, you just say the word and I am there. I am deeply honored that you have allowed me to come here, that you invited me, that you are. That you trust me with the people that follow you around the world, because my work is about one person at a time that I don't think about all the people that are going to be impacted by this, which they will. I think about you and how you're impacted by our time, and I think about the one person that actually made the time to hit play and spend time with you and me. And I am deeply proud of you for starting this.
- [54:46]
B
Thank you.
- [54:47]
A
And I love that this conversation is going to not only improve and empower the life of the person that was listening, but as they share this episode, it's going to send positive ripple effects and tools and hope to people around the world who need it. So thank you for giving me this opportunity to be with you and co create.
- [55:10]
B
Thank you.
- [55:10]
A
I love you.
- [55:11]
B
I love you. Thank you so, so much. I'm obsessed with.