Escaping Polygamy and Starting Over ft. Ashley Sandmire

Summary

Podcast Summary: Khloé in Wonder Land

Episode: Escaping Polygamy and Starting Over ft. Ashley Sandmire

Host: Khloé Kardashian
Guest: Ashley Sandmire
Date: February 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

This deeply personal episode of "Khloé in Wonder Land" features Ashley Sandmire, who bravely shares her story of growing up in, and ultimately escaping, a polygamous religious community. Ashley opens up about her tumultuous childhood, the trauma she endured, the loss of her brother to suicide, her decision to break away for the sake of her own daughter, and the ongoing emotional challenges of healing, parenting, and identity. Khloé creates a supportive and empathetic space, guiding an honest conversation about family, resilience, motherhood, and self-forgiveness.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Life Inside a Polygamous Community

• Family Background:

  • Ashley’s father had 46 children with multiple wives; she was among the youngest.
  • After a family split, Ashley’s mother stayed with her father while other wives left—adding layers to Ashley’s trauma.

• Living Situation:

  • Childhood in trailers without basic amenities ([03:42]).
  • Attempted formation of a new religious community in Mayfield, Utah.

• Religious Context:

  • Raised in the Apostolic United Brethren (AUB), a breakaway polygamist sect—same as the family from "Sister Wives" ([04:44]).
  • Polygamy is framed as necessary for salvation; female voices are marginalized.
  • “You do what the man says, he's the head of the house, and you will obey.” – Ashley ([07:00])

2. Grooming, Control, and Gender Dynamics

• Mother's Early Marriage:

  • Ashley’s mother married at 17; her father was 24 years older ([07:47]).
  • Arranged/pressured courtships for young girls, with little agency or protection.

• Witness to Sister's Grooming:

  • Ashley saw her own sisters pushed into uncomfortable courtship situations with older men ([08:41]).

3. Emerging Critical Thinking & External Influences

• Public School:
  • Ashley attended public school, exposing her to different family dynamics and broadening her worldview ([15:06]).
  • “My parents don’t even care where I am. This is kind of weird.” – Ashley ([18:05])
• Comparisons with Mainstream LDS/Mormon Church:
  • Discussed history of polygamy and subsequent breakaway sects ([16:22]).

4. Motherhood as Catalyst for Change

• Breaking the Cycle:
  • Giving birth made Ashley realize she didn’t want her daughter subjected to the same upbringing ([11:10]).
  • “When I gave birth to my daughter, me and my husband were like, she can't live like that. That's not the life that we want for her.” – Ashley ([11:12])

5. Trauma, Loss, and Mental Health

• Brother’s Suicide:
  • Ashley lost her 14-year-old brother to suicide at age 16; devastating impact and survivor’s guilt ([23:41]).
  • “After he passed, I truly believed that it was my fault.” – Ashley ([31:27])
  • Turning to siblings, TikTok, and community to process grief ([31:17]).
• Intergenerational Trauma:
  • Difficult relationship with her mother, marked by emotional unavailability and learned helplessness.

6. Leaving the Religion

• Gradual Exit:
  • Ashley and her husband did not have to dramatically flee, but gradually disengaged and told their families.
  • Mental as well as physical "escape" proved challenging due to deep-seated fears (loss of salvation, shunning) ([26:45]).
  • “It's the brainwashing and the toll that it takes on you to leave something like that, it messes with you.” – Ashley ([46:53])

7. Parenting with Intention

• Repair and Honesty:
  • Ashley is committed to being emotionally available to her children: “I love being a mom. And that's probably the most… the thing that I'm most passionate about is motherhood and giving my kids the best life that they can ever have.” ([55:22])
  • Honest communication with her children, age-appropriately discussing her past ([26:53]).
  • Advocates normalizing apologies and emotional repair with kids ([55:44]).

8. Complex Family Ties and Forgiveness

• Relationship with Mother:
  • Her mother recently left the religion and began therapy, but emotional distance remains ([19:48], [21:18]).
  • “I just don't feel like that's… there's, like, some sort of, like, disconnect, I guess.” – Ashley ([41:25])
• Estrangement from Father:
  • No ongoing contact; Ashley sees him as fundamentally abusive ([42:36]).

9. Breaking Stigmas and Sharing the Story

• Social Media as Support and Advocacy:
  • Shares openly on TikTok and online to support others and break the taboo around polygamy and suicide ([22:14], [45:25]).
  • Receives pushback and discomfort from the polygamist community.
• Empowering Others:
  • Encourages authenticity and prioritizing mental health: “There is nothing more powerful than being authentic to who you are. Even if it makes other people uncomfortable…” ([48:25])
  • Stresses the importance of children knowing they can talk about their struggles ([50:28]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Brainwashing and Escaping:
  “It's the brainwashing and the toll that it takes on you to leave something like that, it messes with you. And it messed with me for a while, even after I left.”
  – Ashley ([46:53])

• On Motherhood as the Turning Point:
  “When I gave birth to my daughter, me and my husband were like, she can't live like that. That's not the life that we want for her.”
  – Ashley ([11:12])

• On Guilt after Her Brother’s Suicide:
  “After he passed, I truly believed that it was my fault. And that's something that can be super common when you lose someone to suicide, is believing that it's your fault. And that really messed with me for a while.”
  – Ashley ([31:27])

• On Authenticity and Mental Health:
  “I truly believe that authenticity and mental health are so deeply connected. If you are not being authentic to who you are, you're not going to be happy.”
  – Ashley ([48:45])

• On Generational Healing:
  “Even though I don't have a close relationship with my mom, at least I get to be the mom that I always wish that I had.”
  – Ashley ([21:14])

• On Breaking the Cycle:
  “I don't want to live a bitter life. And bad things happen all the time. At the end of the day, we get to choose—is this going to destroy me or is this going to make me a better person?”
  – Ashley ([57:01])

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Important Segments & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:22 | Ashley describes her father’s 46 children and the abuse she endured | | 02:50 | Recounts polygamist family structure, trauma, and living conditions | | 04:33 | Explains differences among breakaway Mormon sects | | 07:47 | Story of her mother's arranged, underage marriage | | 11:10 | Motherhood triggers Ashley’s decision to leave | | 15:06 | Public school, outside perspectives, bullying for being ‘polygamist’ | | 19:48 | Discussion of family divisions and mother’s recent exit | | 23:41 | Ashley shares about her brother's suicide | | 26:45 | Discussing honesty with children about her own upbringing | | 31:27 | Coping with survivor’s guilt; pathway to healing | | 42:36 | Explains estrangement from her father | | 46:53 | Describes impact of mental "escape" from religion | | 48:25 | Advice on authenticity and leaving toxic situations | | 55:22 | Emotional reflection on motherhood | | 57:01 | Choosing growth and forgiveness over bitterness |

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Raw and Reflective: Both Ashley and Khloé speak candidly. Ashley is self-aware, humorous at times, and deeply compassionate.
• Supportive & Empathetic: Khloé brings grace and validation to Ashley’s vulnerability, often affirming and echoing her insights.
• Encouraging: The atmosphere is hopeful despite dark topics, with strong emphasis on breaking the cycle for future generations.

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Closing Insights

• You are not alone: Ashley’s story will resonate with anyone navigating trauma, religious control, or fraught family relationships.
• Healing is nonlinear: Both therapy and parenting have been transformational, but the process is ongoing for Ashley and her family.
• The power of sharing stories: Ashley’s openness disrupts stigma, adds visibility for those suffering in silence, and emphasizes the healing in connection.

Final Words

“Your story matters. Your story is your life and it matters. And you get to choose to keep on going. You get to choose how to write your story.… You get to choose if you are going to grow from it or let it destroy you. And it's your story.”
– Ashley Sandmire ([57:52])

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Transcript

[A]

Things that I wish that I knew. When my husband and I left the polygamous religion we were born and raised in, I thought that I was going to have to share him and have sister wives. We were told to lie about it. I've had the most bizarre crazy shit happen. My brother took his life a little over eight years ago. This has got to stop.

[B]

Your story is so fascinating. You have gone through so much. Tell me about your childhood.

[A]

My dad had 46 kids. He was abusive in every way. It was always taught, you do what the man says and you will obey. The brainwashing and the toll that it takes. That's scary. I got married at 18. Who the hell let me do that? He was like, I don't know if I want multiple wives.

[B]

I would be like, am I enough?

[A]

When I gave birth to my daughter, me and my husband were like, she can't live like that.

[B]

Is your story going to be something you're going to be just very honest about?

[A]

What is even appropriate to tell a 7 year old?

[B]

Do you ever get scared that you left the church?

[A]

There's a lot of fear. I know that there are people living that way that don't want to and they don't know how to get out.

[B]

What do you want people to take away?

[A]

I felt bitter and angry because of the way that grew up. But you can't live life like that. Get up, get the out and leave.

[B]

So, Ashley, thank you for being here on Chloe in Wonderland. You did, I think it was a podcast for someone else and I saw it on TikTok and you were talking about your story and all that you've been through. And your story is so fascinating. But something that really drew me to you is you have so much grace and compassion for all the players in your life. And from what I saw, you didn't come from this place of this victim stance. You came from a place of really wanting to educate and inform and talk about your journey. It's really a beautiful way to position life into position, all that you've gone through. And I really was so enamored by you and your energy and all that. And so I really wanted you to come on and I'm so grateful that you did.

[A]

That's so cool. I appreciate that. I feel so honored to share my story with you. I'm like such a vibey person and I just feel like, just like a calm vibe about you, so.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

I've shared it before, but I feel like it's always nerve wracking the first time and So I feel like I feel more comfortable to just share more and be more vulnerable, so.

[B]

Oh, well, I'm happy to do that with you. I'm so honored that you're on. I really do. And I know you flew in from Utah today, so thank you for doing that. So first, I wanted you to tell me, tell the viewers, the listeners, about your childhood and who you are, the type of family that you were born into, because I don't know if a lot of people know about your history.

[A]

I grew up in a very broken version of polygamy growing up. So my dad had six wives at one point, but my family split up when I was 2 years old. And I like to say that I grew up in, like, a divorced home, like, to the next level, because, yeah, there's just so many adults involved. And my mom chose to stay with my dad, whereas the other wives left. And I feel like that also, like, added a lot into my life and maybe more trauma because my mom chose to stay.

[B]

So what was your living situation like? So your dad had six wives. Were the six wives you guys all have different. Like, one wife? Like, your mom and your siblings would be in one home, and then every wife in their own.

[A]

Yeah. So before my family split up, they actually all lived in trailers in, like, a trailer court. And no heat, no A.C. like, they were just scraping by. And that's. It's just, like, for every family, so different. But that's how it was for mine. Like, everybody had their own trailer. But then when my family split up, we moved to, like, a little town called Lehigh in Utah until I was about 5. And then my dad wanted to start, like, his own, like, community of the religion down a little bit south in Utah in a little town called Mayfield. It never ended up really happening. Like, a few people moved down there, but I lived there, like, up until I moved out at 17.

[B]

You guys were raised. Is it FLDS?

[A]

So I think that's, like, the most common one that people know is flds, and that's like Warren Jeffs. So I grew up in the aub. I don't know if you've heard of the show Sister Wives.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So the Browns. I grew up in the same religion.

[B]

As them, and in that religion, A, U, B. Is polygamy taught.

[A]

Yeah, it's very, like, you need to live this way. That's, like, the main purpose of living that religion is to have multiple wives or live plural marriage is what they call it, because that gets you to eternal heaven.

[B]

I was watching the documentary that you suggested.

[A]

Keep sweet, Pray, obey. So that's the Warren Jeffs one. Yeah.

[B]

So I watched that. Man, that was hard to watch. I actually didn't finish the end. Cause I was like, this is gross. I can't handle this. Especially when you have kids, I'm sure.

[A]

Oh, I know things that you're. Everything hits different when you're a mom.

[B]

Everything, everything. So it was hard. And then, of course, then I'm like, I'm very empathetic. I was like, oh, then I'm thinking about you and what any of this is something that correlated with your life. It was a lot. So in the documentary, it's saying about the more wives you have, the more you're gonna get into heaven. But it's all about the male perspective. And then someone's interviewed another gentleman, and they're like. So the producer was like, okay, you keep talking about the men. Where do the women go when they go to heaven? And it's just like constant laughter. And they were like, oh, we don't really know. Like, it's. The women are not held in any high regard from what I gathered.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that how you felt by. When you were in that religion? Yeah.

[A]

I feel like everybody's experience can be different. But for me personally, growing up, I do feel like it was very much like, you do what the man says, he's the head of the house, and you will obey. And so I guess growing up, I was exposed to a lot of things. Like, I would say Warren Jeff's polygamy was like, the FLDS is a lot, like, more intense than the one that I grew up in. I would say mine is one of the quote unquote better ones to grow up in, for sure. But I feel like it also depends on, like, the family that you were raised in. And for me, we were like, maybe we didn't have Warren Jeffs, but we still had pedophiles that were always allowed to be at our house. And they know that they're creeps. Why are they always at our house every day, hitting on us, all these inappropriate things? And it was always just taught, like, it doesn't matter. Like, you don't really get a choice. And as a woman, and that always, like, bugged me. But it was, like, hard in that sense of, like, finding your voice and also being told you don't really have one.

[B]

Right. And it sounds like your mom, I imagine she got married young, very young. And it sounds. And I have no idea, but a little bit of your story, I would imagine maybe your mom was Sort of groomed or put into this position herself.

[A]

Yeah, I think that she was. She was 17.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And my dad is 24 years older than her, so she was 17, and he was, like, 40 years old. And I think as I've become a mom, it's just, like, making me realize even more how messed up some things are. And she didn't really get a say. Like, it was just like, well, this guy's interested in me, and what they do is courting. And so he asked about her to her dad, and then her dad said, yeah, you can date her. And some dads are like, awesome. And they're like, nope, she's not interested. You can't date. Some are like, no, you have to give it a shot. And. And that's how my mom's dad was. That's how my dad was.

[B]

And your dad would say yes on your behalf.

[A]

Yeah. And just, like, tell my sisters, like, well, you have to give him a shot. My sister had to date this, like, way older man, and she was, like, so creeped out by him and was just like, no, I don't want to. But my dad made her. And he, like, came to our house. We had dinner with him. That's kind of like how the courting starts is, like, you. You get to know them. You and start dating them. And sometimes they have multiple wives, so then you get to know the other wives. And this guy didn't have other wives yet. But my sister was young. She was probably 17, 18. And I just remember it being so uncomfortable. And I was younger because I'm, like, five years younger than her. And I was just like, what is going on?

[B]

Yeah. And that's traumatizing in and of itself. Just being a witness to that. You have such a compassion and grace for people, especially the ones that maybe put you in the line of fire at times. And it says so much about your integrity and character of a person. But I would fight if it were me, like, okay, I love and respect my mom. And I also have empathy because her parents didn't protect her, so she knows no better. Yeah, but then you're also like, but you should know better. Yes.

[A]

Because I feel that. Exactly what you're saying.

[B]

I'll be torn into two ways. And so when I was researching your story, I was like, oh, like, you want to be like, why did you do that to me? But then you're like, but someone did that to you. So I get it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I'm sure, you know, at this point, or when she was 17, for until she had all 12 of you guys. Probably the brainwashing that was happening to her young mind, like, it's 17 is so little. So little, so little. I know we feel so grown at 17, but we're not.

[A]

I know you feel grown at 17 because I got married at 18, and I'm like, who the hell let me do that?

[B]

Totally. I got married at 24. And I question all the. I'm always like, 24. I mean, I. It was amazing, but I'm like, that is a baby.

[A]

So a baby.

[B]

Yes. But I can't understand maybe the two angels you have on your shoulder. Like, because you also want to be entitled to your feelings about, like, why did. Like to be that little girl, like, mommy, I want help protect me. But then you're also.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Sort of wanting to be a mother.

[A]

I still go through this right now because being a mother myself, I'm like, but how could you? Because I grew up the same way. And I was like, no, this isn't okay.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And I was able to, like, work through that and be like, no, find my voice. I don't like this. This isn't okay. And it was becoming a mom that made me leave, that helped me leave, because when I gave birth to my daughter, me and my. I'm going to get emotional. That was just like, the change for me because me and my husband were like, she can't live like that. That's not the life that we want for her. And we don't. We want her to be loved and protected and cared for because that's what she deserves. And so then, like, I have that dug and pull with my mom because I'm like, why don't you think? The second I became a mother, I was like, no, this isn't okay. But then I still have that compassion where I'm like, well, crap, you didn't even get a chance.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You were so young, got married so young, just kept popping babies out every two years.

[B]

And also having that many kids, too. The postpartum, the way that we feel about ourselves and sometimes messes with you. Yeah, it does. And we do become sometimes weaker emotionally or like, what? We're like, we don't feel like we have the strength to do certain things. Sometimes I feel bad because your mom is still a person too. Like, sometimes we put our parents on these pedestals.

[A]

First time living too.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And that many kids, it does affect you.

[A]

And not only that, but like, I had other siblings coming to our house all the time. She was having to mother Them too. And anytime some of my older siblings were like lashing out, having struggles, they would send them to our house and then we would deal with the repercussions of my brothers in these crazy phases of their life. On top of like just my, just my mom not being able to emotionally be there.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah. Not everybody does, but I did. We live far away from any of the other communities. Like I said, my dad tried to start one. Didn't happen. And so I went to the public school that was just 10 minutes away from me and I'm grateful for that in ways because I feel like at first it was hard because in elementary school it's fun, middle school kids get mean and I grew up in a small town so everybody knows everything about everybody and I would get made fun of for being a polygamist. And I didn't really feel like I had anywhere to turn to because anytime I would come to my parents, they wouldn't hear me. And so that was a tough time in my life. But then high school got better, and I was on the soccer team, and I loved it. And that's kind of what kept me in school, because I was not like, I did not love school. I didn't love to do homework or learn or do any of those things. But I loved sports and I loved making friends.

[B]

It's probably a good outlet for you.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Do you think going to a regular school? Because I know some of the. Was it Mormon? Is the religion's Mormon? No.

[A]

Kind of. People get. It's so confusing because so like the LDS Church, they don't really like being called Mormons anymore. Because I think, like, years and years ago they used to practice polygamy. And then one day there was this thing called the Mormon Manifesto. And the president of the church, Wilford Woodruff, was like, we're no longer practicing polygamy. So they haven't done that for a very long time. But then when that happened, there were tons of breakoffs of different polygamous religions. And the one that I grew up in, the aub, is just one of those many breakoffs understood. The flds, Warren Jeff's one of the many breakoffs understood. And they all believe just slightly different things. And some of them are just a lot more crazy than the others.

[B]

A lot of the ones that have their own, like, compounds, if you will. It seems like they funnel in specific education, so a lot of kids aren't even exposed to what could be happening in their lives. Like, they think this is so normal. So I wonder if, like you were saying, but I knew this was wrong. I knew I didn't like this. I also wonder if that's because you went to a public school and maybe got a little exposure to. To what was really happening.

[A]

Yeah, well, I'm like, just an observer. I feel like I learn from observing other people and I would notice my friends lives and their families and be like, this is kind of weird. Yeah, like, it's different. And like, I would go and hang out at my best friend's house for months and my parents wouldn't even, like, ask where I was. And I'm like, this is kind of weird. Like, my friend's parents are always like, calling them and texting them, like, all the time.

[B]

Right.

[A]

My parents don't even care where I am.

[B]

So that's Interesting, because I always felt like in those religions, it was. And maybe this is just my ignorance, like, it was a little more cult, like, where, like, they wanted to keep eyes on you guys more because no one wanted to be exposed. Right.

[A]

I really think that it depends on the family that you're in. I really think my mom was just so checked out with so many kids.

[B]

That's a lot.

[A]

My dad was just doing whatever the crap he was doing, and I was just doing whatever I was doing.

[B]

But do you maybe in hindsight, appreciate that, that you had a little more freedom because maybe you didn't have to go through because you're part of the youngest.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right out of the 12.

[A]

Because my dad had 46 kids, give or take.

[B]

Merry Christmas.

[A]

Merry Christmas to us. No. Like, sometimes we didn't even know if we'd get Christmas.

[B]

That's crazy. Yeah.

[A]

I think I was, like, number 38. I'm, like, one of the youngest of them because I was two in my family split up. My mom was pregnant with my brother just below me, and then my mom stayed with my dad and had a few more kids with him. So.

[B]

Yeah, a lot of kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you close with all your 12 siblings?

[A]

No. It's, like, hard. Yeah, I. I'm close with a few of them, probably about half. But I think it's hard because some of them are still in that religion. And I don't. I don't care if you're like, I know so many people that still live that way, and they're, like, really good people, and they're just trying their best, and they truly believe that they're doing what is right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But sometimes it does cause that divide. Like, if you choose to leave, then people are kind of like, well, you're a bad example. I don't really want to hang around you.

[B]

No. I get.

[A]

But a good portion of my mom's kids have left.

[B]

And your mom is still. She stayed in the religion, so she just recently left. Wow.

[A]

Like, within this last year.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So she, like, started going to therapy.

[B]

And that's also major.

[A]

I know, because growing up, like, therapy, mental health, all of that was so stigmatized, you just sweep it under the rug. I think that my mom probably dealt with postpartum depression, mental health issues, and she never even knew that she did.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because you don't talk about it, and you just pretend like you're okay.

[B]

Your mother leaving, has that made you want to have a stronger relationship with her?

[A]

I think. I think I've always had that want, kind of because she's my mom. And, like, I long for that mother bond that I've never really had since I was, like, little. Little. I see growth happening with her. And, like, she's leaving my dad. He's. He's abusive and very toxic, and she's finally leaving him. And she's been going to therapy, and that's been helping her. She did recently realize, like, oh, I have. Like, I was groomed, and I never really did get to have a voice or find out who I was before I had a million kids. And I. Once again, I have so much grace and compassion with her, but she still has a lot more to go.

[B]

Oh, this is so heartbreaking. That's actually really.

[A]

No, I. It's hard, but I'm, like, so thankful for my kids because even though I don't have a close relationship with my mom, at least I get to be the mom that I always wish that I had. And not saying that I'm a perfect mom, but I do think that I do a really good job. And I just spend so much time with my kids making sure that they feel heard and seen and loved. And I just feel like that's something that I never got as a kid.

[B]

Speaking of that, what was your emotional support as a kid? Like, who would you turn to if you needed? What the normal parental would do for you?

[A]

I feel like sometimes I would turn to friends. When your friends are so young, too, it's kind of like they don't realize the depth of maybe what you're going through. And then also, like, siblings, but then, like, they're going through their own shit, you know? And I have my mom's oldest daughter, Camilla. I to this day call her Mama Cam, because I would go to her for a lot of stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Kind of having some type of mother figure because she would, like, let me sleep over there whenever I needed and vent to her if I needed to, or buy me underwear if I needed it.

[B]

For your dad, was he prominent in your life or was he sort of just doing his own thing? And it was more the moms.

[A]

He was kind of back and forth because he ended up getting a job that was two hours up north away from us. So he'd be gone all week and then come home on the weekends. And sometimes we'd see him. Like, we'd go and visit him, but he didn't parent us at all. It was more of, like, the religious stuff. Like, I want you to do this. I expect you to be like this. But it was never, like, parenting.

[B]

I Guess it's so interesting that even if your dad was gone so much, that your mom still felt like, such a need to stay.

[A]

I know. And that's what's, like, so hard. When you are born and raised into something, you're brainwashed into believing that this is the way. And there's a lot of fear. Right. If you don't live this way, you won't be with your loved ones when you die, and you won't have that eternal family and you won't get to be with your kids and your husband when you die. That's scary.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's a terrifying feeling. And that's why I almost lived that way because I was, like, so scared about not being able to be with my loved ones when I die.

[B]

How did you meet your husband?

[A]

He grew up in the same polygamous religion he did. So when I was 16, my 14 year old brother took his life.

[B]

I'm so scared.

[A]

Yeah. That was so crazy and such a hard time in my life. And my husband Paul. Twelve days after my brother took his life, my husband, Paul's brother died in a tragic construction accident.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

And so Paul and I, like, knew each other because we grew up in the same religion, but after we lost our brothers so close to each other.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We, like, started reaching out to each other, started confiding in each other, and we were both close to our brothers, so it was just nice to be able to talk to someone who understood it. Even though they died in different ways, they were both very tragic. So when Paul and I met each other, we were going to church together. We were going to live polygamy. We would talk about getting sister wives, and it always made me feel a little like, I don't want to share you. I don't want to share you. When I started, like, feeling love for him, I was like, but I have to share you with other women. Like, this sucks, right? But we were just gonna do it because of the pressure. And I think that we wanted to leave for a while after having my daughter. That gave us the, like, strength to be like, I'm not gonna let this control me anymore and hover over me anymore. I need to do this for my daughter. She deserves a better life. And sometimes it just takes something like that to help you make the step that you need in life.

[B]

So you guys got married, had your baby, and then together were just honest and brave enough to say, I want to leave this religion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And is that something you do, like in the darkness of night or do you leave like you're honest with everyone or do you sort of have to run away?

[A]

For Paul and I specifically, we didn't have to escape. Or like, we weren't shut out by our families because we chose not to live that way. Like, they're still in our lives. Just this slow, gradual process of like, not going anymore. And then they're like, why aren't you going to church anymore? What are you doing? And then we finally had to be like, honest about it. But that was hard for me. It was like, I'm not super close with my parents. It was kind of like, whatever, I'm gonna do my thing. It almost made it easier. But for Paul, like, he didn't want to disappoint his loved ones too. And so it was like this process of. I think that's the hardest thing about, like, sometimes when you make decisions for yourself, it might disappoint people that you love and care about. But that doesn't mean that it's the wrong decision.

[B]

No, it doesn't. And you're so strong for breaking that generational cycle and for doing that and doing it for your children. I mean, the way they're gonna feel when they're older and you get to tell them your story. Is your story gonna be something that you're gonna be just very honest about with your kids?

[A]

Yeah, I'm just an honest person. Like, I feel like that causes more issues with your relationships with your children.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Than anything if you're not honest with them. And I think that honesty comes at different levels on their age.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, my oldest is seven. She doesn't even understand the life that I grew up in. And it hasn't even clicked to her how crazy it is because, well, they don't know. Well. And also, like anytime we are around family that still lives that way, the husband isn't ever present.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like they just see their aunties or whatever and so they. She doesn't realize he's married to five women, six women. But with my brother taking his life, she's already asked questions about that. And I'm like, how do you tell seven year olds?

[B]

Well, yeah. What do you say in that situation? So cuz, did she meet him? No. Right.

[A]

She never met him because I was 16 when he passed, so my brother was 14, I was 16. And then I had her. I was pregnant with her at 19, had her at 20 years old. And so I was a baby having a baby. And it's crazy because I feel like my kids have just been growing up with Me and my husband has just been. We're just, like, growing up together.

[B]

Maybe he's comes to her.

[A]

Yeah, like, he has. That's the craziest thing.

[B]

Okay, I believe in all that, so.

[A]

No, I'm telling you he has, because one time I. Because I'll, like, post about my brother and try and, like, spread mental health awareness and suicide awareness because it's not talked about enough, especially in children. My brother was a child, right? And I had this post that I was posting, and she was 3 years old, and she was like, oh, Mom. I was playing with him outside.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And I was like, are you sure? Like, I thought maybe she was confusing him with my other brother that's six years younger than me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But my brother, the past, was only two years younger than me. And I was like, oh, you mean like Uncle Caleb? And I, like, show her a picture of him. She's like, no, it was him. And she was like, we were playing catch outside and he kept sticking his tongue out at me like this. And that is what, like, rung true to me because that's what my brother Ammon would do all the time.

[B]

Oh, I love that.

[A]

He has so many selfies of him sticking his tongue out like that. So the second she told me that I had chills through my body, I was like, okay, I believe you. What the heck?

[B]

Oh, I believe that. And you know, spirits and angels, they come to children because they're the most innocent and, like, their guard is down. And I think sometimes adults get freaked out. But I believe that you have to hold on to that story forever.

[A]

Oh, I know I have to. It was so special. And it's crazy because, like, I still will feel my brother sometimes, but I actually haven't felt him in a while. But when I was at the airport, I, like, felt him. Oh, I, like, got these chills. And I was like, he's with me.

[B]

He is with you. And the more you talk to him and all that, he'll show up for you and all of that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you think your religion had anything to do with him having such mental health?

[A]

I don't know. I've. I've been asked that before, and it's hard to say because he never specifically told me that, but he did. He would tell me, like, I don't feel like this is right. Like, do you really want to have, like, multiple sister wives? Like, he would ask me that and I'd be like, I don't know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So he would question it, like, a lot and be like, this just doesn't feel right. I don't think that this is right. I don't want to live that way, and I don't think that that was necessari. Why. But I do think that we grew up with a lot of. Oh, my. The trauma goes so deep. It's like, that's just like a whole so much. So much story to tell. So I'm sure that there was so much going on his life that even I didn't know about, because him and I were close. And when he took his life, I seriously was so clueless. I was like, what? Like, how does this even happen?

[B]

But when something like that happens, who do you go to? Because that is beyond the word trauma. Seems so empty for something like that. Like, I could never. I couldn't imagine that happening in my life. And then I couldn't imagine that. And then not having a mom or a dad to turn to and be consoled and loved through that time, like, what do you. What do you do? Who do you go to?

[A]

I think I just. I cling to my siblings, my husband and Tick Tock.

[B]

Yeah. No, but it's sharing my story on.

[A]

Tick Tock, finding other people that have been through it too, you know, through other situations. And also, like, I just feel like losing him was probably, if not the most painful thing I've ever gone through in my life. And after he passed, I truly believed that it was my fault. And that's something that can be super common when you lose someone to suicide, is believing that it's your fault. And that really messed with me for a while.

[B]

Why you think that or why you thought that?

[A]

I think that I just was, like, I should have known. Like, I should have saw the signs. I should have known, and I should have stopped this from happening. And also this weird thing happened that I, like, will always remember for some reason. But, like, a month before he had passed, we were. Me, him, and my dad were driving in the car, and I had this, like, super, like, like, strong thought in my brain, like, ammon's gonna kill himself. And I was like, ew. Like, I, like, push it out of my head. Because I was like, that is a gross thought. Like, why would I think that?

[B]

Right?

[A]

And we grew up, like, dreams, thoughts that we have. Like, all of those have meaning to them, and they carry a lot of meaning. And so then I feel like I really took that to heart and was like, this was God trying to tell me, and I didn't listen. And now he's gone. And I was 16. Like, I did not realize even how young I was when I was going through such a loss in my life, but I was able to work through it. And I, you know, I was pretty suicidal. And my husband, when I was dating him, he, one night when we were together, just randomly decided to tell me how much I meant to him, how much my life meant, and how I brighten people's lives around me. And something with what he said clicked to me, and I was like, you know, like, I do matter. People do care about me, and I do need to hang on. And I think that people forget how much little things like that really do matter, like reaching out to people when they're struggling, doing acts of kindness when someone is struggling. And that's something that's helped me with the grief of losing. My brother is doing acts of kindness for people. And I'll do, like, his blue was his favorite color, and so I'll do random acts of blue, and I'll just give them to strangers or I'll give them to someone that I know is struggling. And things like that help me feel close to him and, like, he's with me.

[B]

You'll always keep his memory alive when you do anything. In thought of him, I would think if I. Because I have trust issues having. I'm just wondering, like, do you, like, do you question, like, is your husband. Like, I would be like, am I enough? Because you. All these men saw were like, I need to have five wives. I need to have seven wives, whatever it is. Would you yourself question, like, is this, like, entertaining enough? Is this fulfilling enough? Just.

[A]

I totally see where you're coming from. I think something that helped me not ever feel that way with him was even when we were dating, I think the reason why I felt comfort and even staying with him was because, like, part of me didn't really want to live that way, but I didn't really know, like, maybe didn't have the strength to just be like, I don't want to live this way now. Where do I go? Who's going to want me? You know?

[B]

Right.

[A]

But he. We had a conversation, and he was like, I don't know how I feel about the plural marriage. Like, I don't know if I want multiple wives. And we both were just like, well, we kind of have to. Like, this is what we have to do. And so we would have those conversations. And looking back, I'm like, we were so young to be having those conversations. But I think him being on the same page as me and him vocalizing that to me, Before I vocalized it to him, I was like, okay, this like made me have some trust in him because I was like, okay, you're not just wanting to get like a million wives, you're just wanting to get them because we have to.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Not because you like want all these wives. So I think that that helped for sure.

[B]

I think it's so special that you guys came from similar upbringings because I think you guys can relate and obviously you guys have your trauma bonding from all the stuff you've been through, but you guys are on such parallel journeys. I think it's so much easier to get out together. And how you said you and your husband are growing together. I mean, that's really what marriage is. You're gonna have your ups and your downs, but as long as you both don't stay stagnant. Like you guys want to be.

[A]

We change together.

[B]

Yes. Because we're all gonn being so young.

[A]

We are completely different people than we were when we first got married. It's like jump scare. Yeah, it's truly a jump scare.

[B]

The beauty is it's together. You have three kids. What, what kids do you have? Boys, girls?

[A]

I have a daughter, Brooklyn, and then a son cashed in and then another son, Chapman, and they're all like three years apart.

[B]

So cute. Yeah. I have a seven year old daughter and a three year old son.

[A]

So like the best.

[B]

It's the best. Do you want to have more kids?

[A]

I would only have one more if I were to have more kids. Because I just want to be able to mentally, financially, all the things be able to be there for my kids. So I don't know, like my everything. My daughter's like, I need a sister. And I'm like, and I'm sorry. And it's like I know what it was like to grow up with having sisters and I have sisters that I am close to and so I'm like, I'm sorry that you might not get that. But she has cousins, right?

[B]

I have four sisters and one brother. And I wish I could give my daughter true. A sister because I love my relationship.

[A]

I love sister. I love that relationship is.

[B]

It's so special. Like, it's the best. But I'm also like, I don't know if I have the bandwidth for a third and I'm also not married and I want to be married to have more kids, but. So I don't know. But we have cousins and they're close, like sisters. So I'm like, we're all good.

[A]

That's How I feel. She has a cousin that she's so close to, and they see each other every week, and they're the same age. And I'm like, you have her.

[B]

Yeah. We have to tell ourselves, you at least have her. That's. That's enough. When you had kids, do you think it gave. I know it gave you strength to leave your religion, but do you think it gave you understanding or more compassion for your mother?

[A]

I think at first I was just very angry at her, honestly, if I'm being real.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I had my kids and I was like, like, what the hell, right? Do you even love me? Sometimes I still question it. I'm like, I know what a mother's love feels like, and so it's hard for me to see it any other way. It's just like, you love your kid. This is what you do.

[B]

Have you ever had these conversations with her?

[A]

She can't handle it. So I think going to therapy, this is like something my mom has always done, and I think she's becoming aware that she does it, and now she's learning how to not do it. But anytime, anytime when we were kids, we would tell her the most bizarre thing that happened to us, and she'd be like, oh. And not say a word. That was it. Zone it out, block it out, not talk about it, never bring it up again. And she just shuts down.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Completely shuts down when she's uncomfortable. And I honestly think that's part of what has made us not have the greatest relationship, because I am such an honest, upfront person. And I will tell you how it is. I'll tell you in a nice way, right? Maybe when I was younger, I wasn't nice, right? As I've grown up and matured a little bit, like, I'll tell you in a nice way, but I'm going to be real with you. And I just don't think that she's been able to handle that. But I do see her getting there. Maybe, like, if she continues to go to therapy and she has started to become aware that she shuts down. I just think that it is going to be the longest process. And maybe, like, we would have to go to therapy together.

[B]

Honestly, that might be smart. I don't know if she could handle it right away.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. I don't think she's. Oh, I don't think she's there yet.

[B]

I mean, it sounds or maybe never will be, and I don't know.

[A]

And I have that expectation that it just Might not ever happen.

[B]

And we have to realize how hard it is to change ourselves.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And how much effort and work it takes to change something about ourselves. And you normally only change it if you find there to be a problem with it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If other people say it, you're like, whatever, that's your problem.

[A]

You almost become defensive or like, whatever.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I'm going to be more like that because you're telling me not to be.

[A]

Yeah. So I think I just have to not have expectations because that is what causes the hurt.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I used to have expectations and I would be hurt all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So now it's just like, if she ends up healing more, going to therapy more, and she wants to have those conversations. I'm so ready.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's so weird because, like, she hasn't really been there in my life. My kids barely know who she is. And recently, because she's been going to therapy, like, they've seen her a couple of times this last year. And it was so sad because they're like, who is that? I'm like, it's your grandma. That's my mom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think she's kind of expressed that maybe she wants to be more in our lives.

[B]

But it's like.

[A]

And I. I think it is sweet. I just think that it's very complex.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it's not like. I don't know. I also, like, have that mother in me that's like, are you gonna stay? Are you gonna continue to grow? Because, like, I can't have close relationships.

[B]

I.

[A]

My kids can't have close relationships with people like that, you know?

[B]

Well, I was gonna say, when you see her, does she activate or trigger something in you that I'm imagining? She reminds you of a lot of dark times in your life.

[A]

Yeah. For sure.

[B]

So maybe it's healthier for you that sadly, she's not.

[A]

And I think it's just, like, I don't feel that, like, mother bond with her because I haven't for a long time. So when I am with her, it just feels weird.

[B]

Right?

[A]

It doesn't, I guess, because, like, I know what it feels like when I'm with my kids and how my kids feel when they're with me. And I just don't feel like that's. There's, like, some sort of, like, disconnect, I guess.

[B]

I honestly feel like your mom, especially with how you're saying if you told her something crazy and she just, like, ignores it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It sounds like your mom had probably a really fucked up childhood yeah. And she was probably, for lack of a better word, like trained or conditioned. You can't have an opinion. You can't have a voice, and I don't want you to really even comment on anything that you're seeing.

[A]

And then she married a man that continued to treat her that way.

[B]

So sad.

[A]

I know. I truly have so much compassion for her. I really do.

[B]

No, and I. I love you for that, too. But I also have so much respect for you, that you're taking care of you. Yes, but it's mainly for your kids.

[A]

It just shows that I love them. That's what I'm saying. I'm like, isn't this just what moms do?

[B]

But if she never felt that or had that herself, she doesn't know that's what moms do.

[A]

I know, but that's what's so crazy. I didn't have that either.

[B]

You're right. Yeah.

[A]

And that's the tug and pull.

[B]

Do you have any communication with your dad?

[A]

No.

[B]

None. For how long?

[A]

I think the last time I talked to him was a year or so ago. But, no, I do not have a relationship with him, nor do I care to, honestly. Like, he was abusive in every way to his kids, to his wife, and he fought in Vietnam and got terrible PTSD from it, but he wanted to do it. Like, that's. That's what's actually crazy. And maybe I just talk about this, I guess, but one of the last times I talked to him, he. I asked him, like, I had read this book about Vietnam, and I was like, wow, I didn't realize the stuff that you went through. And I'm trying to, like, you know, I was trying to have compassion for him, even though he's just not a good person. And I was, you know, trying to talk with him about it and just, like, see his perspective of it, and it just left me feeling more icky. I was like, oh, okay. I really don't want a relationship with you. I read a book. It was called the Women. And I told him. I'm like, yeah, I read this book called the Women. And he's like, you want to know how many women I was with in Nam? You want to know if you have nom siblings? I'm like, so are you telling me I have nom siblings?

[B]

Right. That's how he tells you.

[A]

So I'm like, Yeah, I have 45 siblings. Maybe. Like, maybe.

[B]

How many more could you have?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

He's a very fertile man.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

And he just. I don't know, the whole conversation, I felt so icky, and I realized I don't have any more. I don't feel compassion for you. You're just not a good person.

[B]

Whereas he doesn't seem like he has compassion for you either.

[A]

No.

[B]

Like how he's telling you these things. He's just like, yeah, here.

[A]

No.

[B]

So I get why you wouldn't.

[A]

Yes. Whereas with my mom, it's like, I don't think she's. I don't think she's a terrible person. I don't. I think that she just like. Like we've talked about all the things of the way that she grew up and things like that. Whereas with him, I'm like, you're just a bad person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that just is what it is.

[B]

Yeah. Did you get to have traditions as a kid? Like, did you guys celebrate holidays or. Yeah, you did.

[A]

We did.

[B]

So there was still that, like, family aspect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think that was honestly, like, probably my best times as a childhood was the holidays because a lot of times some of my siblings would come and visit and I'd always be so happy if I got to see my siblings. That in itself was magical. It was like, already like, oh, this is special because I get to be with my other siblings.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I don't know, there's just something magical about holidays.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. We did celebrate Christmas and Easter, but I mean, we were never taught about the Easter Bunny or anything. It was just like, we're gonna go hide eggs and whatever.

[B]

Social media is sort of therapy for you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you get any heat for talking about the church?

[A]

I mean, yeah, I've gotten a little bit of heat for it. I think the main thing is, is I think it's just so uncomfortable for people because growing up, we were told that you don't talk about this.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

And when my would come to my school, like, sometimes a sibling would come live with us for a little bit if they were having issues or whatever, or my friends would come over and I had siblings over. It was always, these are my cousins. We had to call our siblings our cousins and kind of be hush hush about it.

[B]

Why is that?

[A]

Just because I think because it wasn't because it's not, like, legal.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

So I think that was part of it. It was because it wasn't legal and because of, like, the hate that would come with it too. I think. I know that they don't want you to, like, it's not like me talking about it definitely makes people Uncomfortable, but.

[B]

At the same, it makes that community uncomfortable.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

And then wouldn't you think it helps? And who knows? Maybe there's someone that was in your position that gets to hear your voice and hear your story, and maybe you give them the strength and the hope to know, like, wow, okay, this isn't normal.

[A]

That's all I could hope for. Because, like, is the. Although it can be hard sometimes because it's like when people are, like, bugged about me talking about it at the same time, I'm like, I know that there are people living that way that don't want to and they don't know how to get out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because even though you don't have to escape, like, maybe physically, mentally, the escape is insane. The brainwashing and the toll that it takes on you to leave something like that, it messes with you. And it messed with me for a while, even after I left.

[B]

Like, well, even what you said about feeling like you're not going to go to heaven with your. Or is that what you consider heaven? Yeah, heaven with your family and your siblings and your kids. Like, that alone would make anyone sit down.

[A]

I used to, like, I realized that I started struggling with some, like, religious ocd. And I never realized until I had kids that I, like, struggled with it. But I literally, after we left, I would pray every night for God to not take my daughter from me. I literally thought she was going to die because we chose to not live that way. She didn't get a special baby blessing. That they do all these things. And I didn't even realize that. It was like, like messing with me. And when I realized that, I was like, whoa, this is crazy. Like, I should not be having to pray every night for my daughter to not die. Like, that is taxing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To say as a mother, you're like, no, that's horrible. I'm sure you get it. You're like, no.

[B]

Oh, no. When I have dark thoughts, I'm like, cancel, cancel. And this isn't happening.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What do you want. Want people to take away from this?

[A]

I think if I could use my voice in any way for good, it's that there is nothing more powerful than being authentic to who you are. Even if it makes other people uncomfortable, even if it makes you uncomfortable at first because you're a people pleaser.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Even if people don't want to be in your life anymore because you're being authentic to who you are. For me, that was leaving a very high demand religion where it disappointed a lot of people when I chose to leave and it hurt them. But in the end, it was the best thing that I could have done for me and for my family. And I just hope through sharing my story, that if anybody's going through anything in life, whether it's leaving a high demand religion or a cult or, and maybe they need the strength to leave, that this gives them hope that, like, it gets better and you will find your community and your people that love you and even if you're living a toxic marriage or a toxic relationship, that it's worth it to leave, get up, get the out and leave because you deserve to live the life that you want to live. And I truly believe that authenticity and mental health are so deeply connected. And I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about that. But if you are not being authentic to who you are, you're not going to be happy. And that is going to put a toll on you mentally. And also in that from losing my brother who was 14, to suicide, we need to be having these conversations with our children. Our children need to know that they are loved the way that they are, that they can be authentically themselves. And they also need to know that they can come to you if they're struggling and that it's okay to not be okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that honestly, that's the leading cause of suicide is not talking about it. And the biggest reason why there's a stigma to mental health is not talking about it. It because everybody has struggles in their life. And if our children know that anytime they are having a struggle, oh, I'm having a struggle, but it's okay and it will get better. And I can tell my mom and dad, I can tell people that I trust that I'm struggling and I don't have to keep this bottled up inside. And I just think that I don't know, authenticity, mental health come hand in hand and I don't know, you need to live your life the way that you want to. And if that's leaving a high demand religion, if that's leaving a toxic relationship, do it. It's hard at first, but then it's easier. It's harder to stay.

[B]

Yeah. Honestly, you're so right and it's so beautifully said. And I think that could happen at any age. Like your mom just left the church herself. I'm sure it was terrifying for her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But be. It could. You're never too old. It's never too late to start over. Exactly.

[A]

Very good point.

[B]

Get the life you want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even if it's a little bit, because that little bit might be the best time of your life and better than.

[A]

It will still be worth it.

[B]

It will be.

[A]

It's never too late.

[B]

Do you have any faith now? Like, do you have a different faith or any faith?

[A]

I think that I'm still maybe on my journey. Like, I wouldn't say that I'm, like, religious. Like, I'm not tied to a certain religion, but I am very spiritual. And I also just believe in being a good person and doing good. And I think that, like, I still struggle a little bit with religion at all in general because of where I came from. So I just really cling to being a good person and teaching my kids to be good people. And I think that matters more than anything, honestly.

[B]

For someone in polygamy, I would think a lot of that has its own identity in a way. Because you were young and you left the church, do you think, like, you. Like, you had to get rid of the identity of polygamy because growing up in a small town, I imagine a lot of people knew that you came from a. A polygamous family? Like, did that bother you that that was an identity that followed you places?

[A]

Oh, yeah, I hated it.

[B]

Yeah, I.

[A]

Which is so funny, because now I talk about it, and I have no shame about it. And maybe that's why I talk about it and don't have shame about it, because my mindset has shifted. I used to be so embarrassed that I came from a polygamous family, and I hated that people would say stuff. And now I'm like, yeah, I grew up in a polygamous family. So what? I didn't choose that. And you know what? It's a good story to tell.

[B]

Do you ever get scared that you left the church?

[A]

I think I used to. What do you mean by scared?

[B]

I don't know. I just. And I don't know what's really real or fiction, like, from what people say, but you hear, like, oh, it's dangerous. So many different. Yeah, you just hear it.

[A]

Stories, I think, because flds, I do think it's more dangerous to leave flds. And that's the Warren Jeffs.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Keep sweet, pray and obey. Even though we didn't grow up in that specific polygamy, I was always taught to just keep sweet, pray and obey. Do what you're told.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

But I always had that little bit of fire in me, you know?

[B]

Yeah. Thank God. What do you feel you're the most proud of. Of accomplishing in your life at this moment. I don't know.

[A]

I guess maybe it sounds dumb because we're already talking about this, but just like, being the mom that I am to my babies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it'll get me emotional every time.

[B]

No, you're such a good mom because.

[A]

Yeah, sorry.

[B]

No, don't be sorry. You're such a good mom. You really are.

[A]

I try my best, and, you know, anytime that I do something wrong, I'm always like, whether I yell at them, I lose my temper. I'm like, that is not your fault. I was having a hard time with my emotions. And that's not on you, that's on me. And even, like, just little things like that that I was never told as a kid, like, that I don't have to carry other people's emotions and that that's on them. If they lose their. Or they have their issues, it's not on you to carry. And I feel like I always had to carry so much as a kid and always walking on eggshells. And I am just thankful that despite everything that I've been through and not having a good parent role to look at, I have been able to just be a mom that I always dreamed of. And I just. I love being a mom. And that's probably the most. The thing that I'm most passionate about is motherhood and giving my kids the best life that they can ever have.

[B]

Well, I think it's really, really beautiful that. Exactly what you said. You didn't have a good role model to look towards, but you do a really damn good job, it seems. And even things like that, the way that you're able to communicate with your kids, like, if, you know, you. I've done that to mine. I've, like, snapped. I'm like, I'm so sorry, and I'll explain. And then my kids are like, I.

[A]

Think that goes a long ways, though, because I don't believe that our kids need perfect parents. I didn't need perfect parents. I just needed the repair. The repair of this shouldn't have happened. And I'm sorry. The conversations. Conversations with your kids and helping them understand things, I just think goes a very, very long ways. And I hope that it does for my kids. I can hope that, you know, and I'm sure that they'll have their issues, whatever when they get older, but I just hope that they just never have to question my love for them.

[B]

No, I don't. I don't think they could. I really don't. Last question. How do you think you maintain so much grace and forgiveness for the ones that maybe weren't so great to you.

[A]

I don't know. At first I didn't know if I could. I feel like in a way it's like a grief. And the older I got, the more of the grief of it that I felt. The realization of what the love that I lacked and the parent bonds that I lacked and all those things. I don't know. I guess I just do not want to live my life bitter. And maybe that's what it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I came to a realization one day, maybe, maybe it was slowly that I don't want to live a bitter life. And bad things happen all the time. And at the end of the day, we get to choose. Is this going to destroy me?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or is this going to make me a better person? Is this going to make me into who I want to be?

[B]

I think you're so self aware and so aware. Like, yes, I wish my mom did certain things, but you also understand how she was raised. And it's, you know, a domino effect that way. And even your dad, you're like, no, I don't want the relationship. But that's. You're not trashing anyone. You're like, yeah, no, it's just.

[A]

And that's something about me. Like, I'll be honest. Yeah, yeah, I'll be, I'll be honest. But I try to be, you know, respectful about it.

[B]

You are. And so if anyone has something to say, I think that's their own.

[A]

And I mean, I guess like you saying, like, I share my story to help people. And that's exactly it is. I. I learned after losing my brother that your story matters. Your story is your life and it matters. And you get to choose to keep on going. You get to choose how to write your story. And sometimes things will pop up in your story that are hard or that you didn't choose. But at the end of the day, you still get to choose your story because you get to choose if you are going to grow from it or let it destroy you. And it's your story.

[B]

You get to choose your story 100%. Well, I'm so proud of you. I don't want that to sound condescending.

[A]

I really, really do. It doesn't. Thank you. I appreciate that.

[B]

Because I can't imag imagine how much personal work it's taken. And you just seem still so full of light and what a beautiful thing that no one else can take that from you.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Yeah, thank you.

[A]

I really appreciate that. Thank you for having me. Sam.