Signals You’re Sending (Without Knowing It) ft. Behavioral Researcher & Bestselling Author Vanessa Van Edwards

Summary

Summary of "Signals You’re Sending (Without Knowing It)" ft. Vanessa Van Edwards

Podcast Information:

• Title: Khloé in Wonder Land
• Host: Khloé Kardashian
• Guest: Vanessa Van Edwards, Behavioral Researcher & Bestselling Author
• Episode: Signals You’re Sending (Without Knowing It)
• Release Date: May 29, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of "Khloé in Wonder Land," host Khloé Kardashian welcomes behavioral researcher and bestselling author Vanessa Van Edwards to explore the subtle and often unnoticed signals we send through our body language, facial expressions, voice tones, and gestures. The conversation delves into how these unconscious cues influence our interactions, relationships, and overall social dynamics.

Understanding Nonverbal Communication

Khloé Kardashian (00:18):
"I think your cues tell others how to treat you. We are sending hundreds, if not thousands of signals every day with our facial expressions, our voice tone, our gestures, our posture. But most people don't know what they're sending."

Vanessa emphasizes the pervasive nature of nonverbal communication, highlighting that individuals unconsciously emit numerous signals that significantly impact how they are perceived and treated by others.

The Impact of Negative Micro-Expressions

Vanessa Van Edwards (04:12):
"Contempt is the only micro expression or emotion that doesn't go away. Don't accidentally show contempt in your profile pictures because it's actually showing a little bit of scorn or disdain."

Khloé and Vanessa discuss the profound effect of the contempt micro-expression on relationships. Vanessa references Dr. John Gottman's research, revealing that contempt is a strong predictor of divorce, with a 93.6% accuracy in predicting the dissolution of a marriage when one partner exhibits contempt ([13:36]).

Self-Awareness Through Recording

Khloé introduces a practical exercise for listeners to gain self-awareness of their nonverbal cues:

1. Baseline Recording:
   Record yourself talking about a mundane topic, like your breakfast, to establish a baseline of truthful expressions.

2. Embarrassing Story:
   Share an embarrassing story to observe how your body and facial expressions change when recounting uncomfortable experiences.

3. Lie Detection:
   Invent an untrue embarrassing story to identify your lying tells and understand how deceit manifests in your nonverbal behavior ([04:12]).

Nonverbal Cues and Social Media

Khloé Kardashian (06:57):
"Sincerity is the word I would give. Because now all of a sudden, we are almost on our own TV shows... people have this feeling of loneliness or lack of depth with their friendships or their relationships."

The duo explores how social media has amplified the scrutiny of nonverbal signals, leading to curated personas that may lack authenticity. This often results in superficial connections and heightened feelings of isolation.

Key Nonverbal Cues Explored

1. Nodding ([26:33]):

   • Slow Triple Nod: Encourages the speaker to continue, signaling warmth and engagement.
   • Fast Nod: Conveys impatience, indicating that the listener wants to wrap up the conversation.

2. Contempt ([13:36], [14:04]):

   • A micro-expression that reveals underlying disdain or scorn, detrimental to personal relationships.

3. Lip Pursing ([22:58]):

   • Indicates withholding information or uncertainty, often signaling discomfort.

4. Toe Behavior ([24:22]):

   • Points towards the most important person in the room or signals a desire to exit the conversation when directed towards the door.

5. Lower Lid Flex ([55:45]):

   • Demonstrates deep listening and scrutiny, often associated with high competence and charisma.

Gender Differences in Nonverbal Communication

Vanessa Van Edwards (35:15):
"Women typically default to higher warmth... sacrificing their need to be respected."

• Women: Tend to display higher warmth, prioritizing likability over competence, which can lead to being perceived as less authoritative.
• Men: Often struggle to exhibit warmth and emotion, leading to perceptions of coldness or intimidation.

Enhancing Nonverbal Communication Skills

Practical Tips Shared:

1. Eye Contact:
   Encourage children to notice eye color to make eye contact more intentional and meaningful ([33:08]).

2. Visible Hands:
   Teach children to approach with hands visible to signal openness and control over greetings ([33:45]).

3. Power Poses:
   Adopt a "superhero" stance by rolling shoulders back and holding the chin high to project confidence and competence ([34:32]).

Overcoming Social Awkwardness

Khloé and Vanessa discuss strategies for individuals who perceive themselves as socially awkward:

1. Identify and Change Narratives:
   Move away from victim or overly aggressive narratives towards more balanced self-perceptions.

2. Engage in a 30-Day Social Cleanse:
   Focus on nurturing relationships with supportive individuals and purge ambivalent or toxic connections.

3. Set Micro Goals:
   Utilize to-do lists to create small victories that build confidence and motivation through dopamine release ([52:42]).

Analyzing Historical Art for Nonverbal Cues

Da Vinci’s "The Last Supper" ([58:32]):
Vanessa uses the painting to illustrate the balance of warmth and competence through body language:

• Christ's Posture:
  Balances openness (palm up) with authority (palm down), coupled with a head tilt to show empathy and active listening.

• Judas's Body Language:
  Smaller presence and negative facial expressions indicate withholding and lack of trust.

Conclusion and Takeaways

1. Balance Warmth and Competence:
   Strive to exhibit both warmth and competence to build trustworthy and reliable relationships.

2. Be Mindful of Nonverbal Signals:
   Regularly assess and adjust your body language to ensure it aligns with your intended message.

3. Foster Authentic Connections:
   Move beyond superficial interactions by asking meaningful questions that delve into personal values and goals.

4. Continuous Self-Improvement:
   Engage in practices that enhance your nonverbal communication skills to reduce awkwardness and build charisma.

Notable Quotes

• Khloé Kardashian ([02:48]):
  "We are sending hundreds, if not thousands of signals every day... but most people don't know what they're sending."

• Vanessa Van Edwards ([13:36]):
  "Contempt is the only micro expression or emotion that doesn't go away."

• Khloé Kardashian ([26:33]):
  "Slow triple nod is tell me more, tell me more. Fast nod is impatience."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and actionable advice presented in the episode, providing listeners with valuable knowledge on understanding and improving their nonverbal communication.

Transcript

[A]

I have a sister named Courtney and a brother named Robert.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Is that not the weirdest? We have the same life, except totally different.

[B]

I mean, you're way smarter than me, but it's okay.

[A]

You have a few more followers than me.

[B]

It's fine. We could trade if you want.

[A]

I think your cues tell others how to treat you. We are sending hundreds, if not thousands of signals every day with our facial expressions, our voice tone, our gestures, our posture. But most people don't know what they're sending. Contempt is the only micro expression or emotion that doesn't go away. Don't accidentally show contempt in your profile pictures because it's actually showing a little bit of scorn or disguise. Do we have to go check your profile? Because I haven't looked recently.

[B]

I'm smiling. We have to change mine. Just kidding.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

I'm just.

[A]

I would have. I should have checked.

[B]

How does one fall for the cult? Like, I'm so intrigued.

[A]

And it's usually, by the way, like, smart women.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. They're all very, very smart.

[A]

That's the problem. Why do you think I'm doing this?

[B]

And if there was a hot cult leader, I might be in that cult. No, I will not let you cancel.

[A]

Oh, I'm moving on. Take your chance. Discover sh. The new fragrance Chanel.

[B]

Vanessa, I'm so happy to have you on Chloe in Wonderland.

[A]

I'm so happy to be here.

[B]

I'm so. I feel like I could chat with you forever. We've already been chit chatting. I'm so excited to have you here because I meet so many people, and I will say that I meet more socially awkward people than I do less. I feel like everything that you research and everything that you're teaching, it's like. So I love doing podcasts that people can have takeaways.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And this one with you, in my opinion, is genuinely something that I feel is maybe the most important because anyone, any gender, any age, should know about these cues and how. I don't want to say how to act, but either how to.

[A]

I think your cues tell others how to treat you. And so if you are not sending the right cues, people treat you wrong. And so I think everyone. I wish we were taught this in school. We are not.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's a lot of focus on book smarts and getting test scores and IQ and P, you know, But I actually think that interpersonal intelligence, knowing how to show up as likable, knowing how to show up as credible, knowing how to be assertive and still be liked. And being able to tell people, this is exactly how I want to be treated. But knowing what to do with your body, your voice, your face, we are sending hundreds, if not thousands of signals every day with our facial expressions, our voice tone, our gestures, our posture. But most people don't know what they're sending.

[B]

And I find that so fascinating. I feel like with me, I was definitely one of those people. I have not a relatable story, but because I've been on TV for so long, I was able to see myself. And it was very much as if I was holding a mirror up to me all day long. I would be like, ew, right? Who is this person? Or I didn't know I sounded like that. Or why was I talking to my mom in that tone? But in a way, I really appreciated it because I didn't like that version of me. There's some people that see that version of themselves and they are okay with it or love it. I was not so thrilled with myself. And some of those, you just did.

[A]

A disgust micro expression. So I don't know. So when we crinkle our nose up, it's like this kind of like, I'm grossed out disgust.

[B]

I'm just happy my face still moves. Okay.

[A]

We can't do eyebrow raises. You know, those are.

[B]

Can't do an eyebrow.

[A]

We can still do. Unless they learn. Unless we Botox our nose.

[B]

No, I haven't done that yet.

[A]

Okay, not yet. So disgust is a really interesting one. It was interesting as you were talking about seeing yourself. You showed disgust like you didn't like what you saw. And what's important about that is I think actually everyone feels that way or most people feel that way. And that's why we're so shocked when we see ourselves on video, or we're so shocked when we hear ourselves, you know, a recording of ourselves. So I have one actually takeaway that I think everyone should do. Everyone should know their nervous tells. Everyone should know what they look like when they're feeling uncomfortable or nervous so that you know how you're coming across. So this is a very simple exercise I have everyone do. You can do it privately. You don't have to show anyone. So pull up your phone and I want you to record yourself as if you're talking to me. So pretend you're talking to me and tell me first what you had for breakfast yesterday. You don't have to actually do this if you don't want to. What you're looking at is what you look like when you're recalling something truthful. That's the very first thing. And that's the baseline for lie detection, which we can talk about, Right? The next thing I want you to do is I want you to tell me your most embarrassing story. Tell it to me and, like, relive it. What does your body do? What does your voice do? What does your face do? This is how you look when someone says something to you in a meeting on a date that makes you uncomfortable, and you should know your giveaways. And the last one is, if you want to, your lying tells. I think everyone should know what they do when they lie or when they're feeling guilty. So then I want you to make up an embarrassing story that did not happen to you and tell it to me like the camera, like you're trying to convince me of it. You'll see. You're gonna do things that you don't normally do that are your lying tells, your giveaways.

[B]

Do we want people to master the art of lying? Do you know what I mean? Like, if I'm trading myself, okay. I gulp before I say something. If it's a lie, I want you.

[A]

To know sometimes we don't always know when we're lying to ourselves. In our lab, we do a bunch of lie detection research, and we have people come in. We have them do two truths and a lie. Fun game. And we then code the lies to look for the differences. So one of the biggest giveaways for a lie is people use the question inflection. So they go up at the end of their sentence, right? Like they're asking.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So they'll say, you know, here's mine. I live in Austin, Texas. I love dogs. I love cilantro. I don't like cilantro. Right. I asked it. Okay. Who does so, Right.

[B]

I have to. I do not like cilantro.

[A]

Yeah, no, me too. So I don't like cilantro. So that's. I ask it. Okay, let's say that you're on a date and someone's like, you know, I would love to go out with you again. And you go, yeah, you don't want to go? No, you don't want to go. And I think that sometimes, especially as women, we don't want to tell ourselves the truth. And that ambivalence, being ambivalent about a friend or a person hearing yourself be like, whoa, I just did it, maybe, like, there's a question here, I think that is such good honesty for yourself.

[B]

Yes, I agree. Do you Think that because you were doing this before that social media craze, that there's a difference in the way that people now sort of micromanage themselves in terms of their cadence or what they're trying to portray to people. Like, is every. It's not as sincere.

[A]

Yes, I think you hit on it. Sincerity is the word I would give. Because now all of a sudden, we are almost on our own TV shows. So I think that maybe for the first 10 years of your career, we couldn't relate. But now, like, I think people are watching themselves on video quite a lot, right? And it's very curated because they can curate with filter are how they look. And so I think what's happening is people want that effect in real life as well, and if they can't get it, they won't do it. And so what I'm hearing more and more is people have this, like, feeling of loneliness or lack of depth with their friendships or their relationships, or they have trouble going from date to soulmate or acquaintance to best friend. Because that leap requires authenticity, right? It requires sincerity and I real connection and real connection and not me muting our cues. So this is the other thing that is a big misconception is sometimes I think people think. So there are 97 different cues that we send. And so I think we think, well, I don't know what cues to send, so I'm going to completely mute. I'm not going to send any cues at all. When we don't send enough cues, it makes other people nervous, right? If we can't read your face or read your body, we're like, oh. And we automatically think it's about us. Like, especially me. I'm a recovering awkward person, right? Like, I think everyone hates me all the time. I always think people are angry at me, right? And that's why I got into this work, actually. I would leave a party and I be like, oh, everyone hates me. And my husband will be like, what?

[B]

Right. Why do you think that?

[A]

And I was. There's a certain portion of the population, we are high neurotic and we misinterpret neutral expressions as negative. So I think a lot of misinterpretations are happening because of social media, because we see someone portrayed a certain way, then we get in person or even on video and we realize, oh my gosh, there's I can't read them, or they're trying to mute or under signal, and it's causing all these disruptions in our relationships. I know exactly what to do now. And I can trust my radar if you would have. Call it my keywording ability that I won't misinterpret. So I felt so much better once I learned how to read faces. Like, I wasn't misinterpreting them anymore. Like, I knew that. Disgust. So disgust is an interesting one because it comes up when people are either lying or they're trying to hide the truth. So I might ask someone, so, what do you think of the new girl? Oh, yeah. She's great. Right. And I'm like, right, it's okay. You can tell me the truth.

[B]

Like, you're giving it away.

[A]

Exactly. So now that I know that, I'm not worried that I'm gonna miss the cue. And so I'm much less awkward because I know that I can see it. I'm not. I'm not confused by it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so I feel like every cue that you learn, you become more confident and less awkward for. For other recovering awkward people. You're not recovering awkward person.

[B]

No, I don't think so. But I'm someone who. I consider myself, like, an ambivert. Ambient.

[A]

Ambivert.

[B]

Ambivert. I'm. So if that's how you feel, then you would know. People think I'm so extroverted, but I just know when to give it, when I need to give it. I sort of mentally psych myself up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that. But I'm definitely not an introvert. Right. Like, I. I'm vulnerable. I share myself. I feel like I'm like, full transparency. But I know I definitely need time to recharge afterwards. I'm not someone that can just jump from group to group of people.

[A]

And like ambiverts are. Most people are ambiverts. We actually studied this. So there's very few true extroverts and true introverts. By the way, if are curious where you are, right? Here's the question you can do for yourself or anyone else. Do you want to go to Vegas? So an extrovert is like, yeah, let's go pack my bags. Right. Introvert is like, I'll watch a show about Vegas on my couch with you. Right. And Amber Heard is like, well, what are we going to do?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How are we going to get there?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, can I have a little bit of time to pack my bags? Right? Like, that's in between. That's. That's their litmus test. That's how you know that's the best test.

[B]

That really is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Speaking about the 97 cues, I'm not Trying to say that one is more important than the other. But what would you say would be the five strongest that someone should have most helpful?

[A]

It's hard. It's like picking, picking a favorite child. So hard. Okay, so the first one that I like, love to talk about is in anything that is incongruent, I'll give you a specific one which is in western cultures, when we say yes, we nod like this. And we say no, we nod like this. You always want to look for leaks where something does not match. So in lie detection, we notice that when people don't feel a certain way, they'll actually their nod will give them away. So like if I say to my daughter, did you take the cookie? And she's like, yeah, right? And she shakes her head no, I know that was a leak. And that's because we often practice our words, but not our non verbal. So like right now you're nodding and it makes me feel so good because a slow triple nod is tell me more, tell me more. But if I were to sit like this while you were talking.

[B]

Right. I would stop talking. Right. Why is she telling me no?

[A]

The nod is really important for you as a speaker because it helps you bold or emphasize your words. If you're pitching presenting in an interview negotiation and you want to highlight what you're saying, a nod actually is like a nonverbal highlight. You can say, you know, I really, really believe this. And the other person's like, wow, she really believes it. And you also want to watch for incongruency. So if someone says, you know, I really. Yeah, I think, I think it's great. They don't.

[B]

Right. They don't.

[A]

Right. And so I'm all for radical honesty in relationships. And you can say, you know, I watched Chloe and Vanessa and you just did a nod that was not right. You can just tell me the truth.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like I'm here for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so watching for that, that's a really powerful one. The second one I would say is a facial expression. And luckily Botox doesn't affect it. Yay. We can still see it, which is contempt. So a micro expression is a universal facial expression. They're across genders and cultures and races and they're made when we feel a very intense emotion. They've discovered seven. They're a little bit hotly debated in the research community. But the one that I think the most helpful is contempt, which is a one sided mouth raise. So kind of a smirk. So if you try it, it'll actually make you feel Kind of better then, can I do it like you did it? You're doing it? Yeah. Like. Like you got it?

[B]

Does it move that way?

[A]

Okay, you got it. It's a kind of scorn, disdain. Better than why it's so powerful is what. Dr. John Gottman is a marriage and family counselor. He wanted to know how to predict divorce. So he did a massive study where he brought thousands of couples into his lab, and he studied everything he could think of. He interviewed them. He looked at their history, their health. He videotaped them in interviews and in bed and breakfast settings, looking for patterns.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Then he followed these couples for 30 years.

[B]

What?

[A]

One of the biggest marriage experiments ever done. He found there was one single predictor of divorce. What is it that is so powerful that he can watch a silent video of a couple and tell you with 93.6% accuracy if that couple will get divorced?

[B]

Stop. What is that?

[A]

If one member of the couple shows contempt towards the other. What he found was there as couples, that many, many couples stayed together, and they did not show contempt in that initial intake interview, but 93.6% of couples, if one member showed.

[B]

Oh, just in the initial interview. Got it. Okay. He can take interview.

[A]

So when I. I'm always asked by friends, like, come meet my guy, which I love to do. I mean, I love. Makes me feel needed. Right, Right. And what I'm looking for is that. And that is because contempt is the only micro expression or emotion that doesn't go away.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Happiness comes in a burst, and then it settles. Anger comes, then you calm down. Fear comes, and you get less nervous. But not contempt. If you feel better than someone else, that disrespect, if it's not addressed, it festers and it grows into, I hate you. That's why at an end. At the end of a marriage, a bad marriage, people won't even look at each other. And so contempt is so powerful. One is, you need to make sure that you are not accidentally seeing it on your partner, your teammate, your friend's face. When you see it, I want you to immediately say, hey, are we good? What's happening here? Because you don't know what it's for.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like that contempt can be towards you. It could be towards something like their own internal monologue. It could be something outside. Immediately addressing the contempt diffuses it. The moment you can spot that smirk and say, hey, we're on the same page here. I want to be against that contempt. You fix it.

[B]

That is so fascinating.

[A]

And check your profile pictures. Check Your profile.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Don't accidentally show contempt in your profile pictures because it's actually showing a little bit of scorn. Or to skate. Do we have to go check your profile pictures? I haven't looked recently.

[B]

Smiling.

[A]

Okay, good. I would rather, by the way, neutral or smile, but nothing in between. So no asymmetry on the face. And also not a fake smile. Right. So like a fake smile. The only.

[B]

Oh, you can tell when I'm fake smiling.

[A]

Okay. Okay, good. So because it's. It's only. The only definition of a real smile is when the smile reaches all the way up into these crow's feet. Yes. Yeah. And so when someone.

[B]

Someone's like, yes.

[A]

I'm so happy to be here. Right. Like, not good.

[B]

No, not good. Because you're so blank in the eyes, you don't really mean it.

[A]

Yes. And so go check your profile pictures for contempt, asymmetry. And then there's one other thing. If you're checking profile pictures, my least favorite pose in the history of all of humanity is this one on LinkedIn. I'm going to show you. Let me go like this.

[B]

That is.

[A]

Do you know what I mean?

[B]

Commercial.

[A]

It's horrible.

[B]

No, it's horrible.

[A]

It's all the wrong body language. Right. Like you're angled away. So we like when the body is angled right towards someone. Right.

[B]

And like very head shoddy.

[A]

No, for like, I don't know. More. No, More. So no contempt. No. Over the shoulder. I love a hand and you have to change mine.

[B]

Just kidding.

[A]

I would have. I should have checked.

[B]

Would you die if I was like, well, mine are all the above, but it's not. Don't worry.

[A]

I would tell you.

[B]

Yeah, no.

[A]

And I would tell you I've got in trouble. I recently. I can tell you. This is crazy. I got in trouble for not sharing. So one of my friends had a guy and my whole crew met him and they all loved him. Oh. The group tasks was ablaze with hearts and fires and gifts. And I was away for the meeting, so I was like, dang it. So I met him later and I was expecting something great, and I met him. Girl, I saw so many red flags.

[B]

No.

[A]

And I didn't know what to do because all my friends loved him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And my friend was falling in love with him. Oh, no. So I didn't say anything. Turns out a couple months later, he was completely scamming her. Fake background, fake job, fake everything. And thank goodness she figured it out. But never again will I not say anything. So if you had a bad profile.

[B]

Picture I would tell and I was just thinking then when I get a boyfriend, oh yeah, bringing text to you.

[A]

Yeah I'll like be like behind a bush.

[B]

So is all you need is a photo or you need to meet someone?

[A]

Well, I can tell a lot from a video because remember silent videos.

[B]

I tell you I think I'm really going to do this.

[A]

Text me. Yes, we need to, we need to make sure.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I also like my friend is so smart. Like she's so cool, so smart. She has good intuition. So I was like really surprised that she didn't pick up on it. I realized it was the language of cues which goes back to what you said at the beginning. If we are armed with these cues we know what to look for. We can get right to the truth, which is the goal.

[C]

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[A]

Do you feel like you have good intuition on people?

[B]

I feel like I do, but I've also been wrong about people, you know, but I feel like I do more so when it's not romantic because I am not blinded by other things.

[A]

And that's. That's. I think, what was happening. And like, I think wishful thinking is, like, very powerful and beautiful. And, like, that's good. But we also have to know what is the body language telling us? What is even the vocal power telling us? Oh, wait, I was. I promised five. Right? So we did nodding, we did contempt. My next favorite one. I want to do lip pursing. So lip pursing is a universal gesture that when we are withholding something, we. We kind of press our lips together into that firm line. Like, for example, if you ask a woman, how much do you weigh? She'll be like, right. Like, we just, like, we don't like to say.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it's a universal gesture. I like looking for it when. I always want to know when someone's holding back with me, you know, friend or teammate or. My hubby doesn't hold back anymore. He knows better. He knows better a lot. Oh, my God. He's the most honest person I ever met, and that's why I married him. So he doesn't.

[B]

What a gift you have. I'm like, this is amazing. No, he has no choice.

[A]

So. And by the way, watch this with your partner. Right? Like. Like, do this with your, like, trade cues with your partner, please. So a lit purse. I. That's, I think, a symbol of. I need to go deeper. I need to give this person permission that I'm a safe place for them. And, like, that's what we're doing as humans is we're trying to be like, you belong here. You are safe here. So if I'm talking to someone and they're like. And they press their lips together, I know what they're thinking is, should I say this? Should I say this? And I always want them to say it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Right. It's like, it's a perfect moment to be like, you can tell me. Just tell me everything. And then just tell people you read body language, and then they'll really tell you everything.

[B]

That's a good way to get them to tell you that because you're not waiting for them to just be like.

[A]

I watch Chloe Vanessa's podcast and I know all the cues.

[B]

I know, I know you're hiding something from me. That's a good one. What's number four, would you say?

[A]

I would say toe behavior. And this is kind of a weird one. So we actually found that when we were observing people, we noticed that people tended to point their toes towards the most important person in the room or their crush.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And I love to go to an office Christmas party and try to predict.

[B]

Who has a crush where their feet are.

[A]

Yes. This makes sense, right? From a. From a subconscious perspective, your brain is sort of on either the most important person in the room or your crush. And so your body sort of orients towards them, even if we're talking like your feet might be towards them. So one, you can look at this. It's very interesting to look at. But two, it's also a good cue for you. If someone's done talking to you, they will often point their toes towards the door, like if they want. And by the way, if you ever want out, you also could point your toes towards the door subconsciously. Sometimes you will pick up on it.

[B]

I am going to pay attention to this so deeply now. This is going to be like sick game.

[A]

It's also a great way to, like, look at people's shoes and see all kinds.

[B]

No, I love this. That is. I've never thought about the foot one. That's crazy.

[A]

And we don't think about feet and so often it gives it away. You know what I mean?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Now everyone's going to know about this one.

[A]

Well, I mean, now everyone's going to be like, I'm just straight ahead.

[B]

Yes. And is it for men and women? Wow.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, last one. It's again, it's so hard to pick my favorite. My last one I'm going to do for.

[B]

These are great. Building on the nod is I'm a big nodder.

[A]

I know. I love it.

[B]

I don't know if it's bad or good. And it's all subconscious. I'm not like sitting here, like, I better not right now. I sometimes hate that I do it so much, but I'm so invested in what people are saying.

[A]

I love it because it's a warmth cue. So when we talk about body language, we want to split them up into warmth cues and competence cues. When humans first meet, especially in first impressions, we are very quickly trying to get gauge someone's warmth and competence. This makes up 82% of our impressions of people. So when someone first meets you, the very first question they're asking is, can I trust you? The second question is, can I rely on you? Very highly charismatic people. That's who I study. Highly charismatic people are quickly signaling, you can trust me and you can rely on me. And then we're like, oh, we like this person. That's why we like. Or we're drawn to certain people. So when we. Warmth cues are the first thing I want to do. Nodding is a warmth cue, which is why we love it so much. There's something I want to note about it, though. So a slow triple nod makes the other person speak 67% longer.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You've actually got to sit. So as an interviewer, it's great because you're like, keep going. Tell me more. Right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But there's a difference between a slow nod and a fast nod. A slow nod is engagement and warmth. A fast nod is impatience. So look at the difference. This is versus, huh?

[B]

Right? It is so fascinating.

[A]

If you want someone to just wrap it up. Like, they're like. And they get it. They're like, oh, okay, I got. I gotta hurry it up and wrap it up. It's, like, so interesting. Like, that subtle. That subtle little difference.

[B]

So crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I also tend to, I think, like, squint.

[A]

You do a lower lid flex.

[B]

Right? What does that mean?

[A]

Yes. Okay. So some of your amazing cues. So you nod. And by the way, you mentioned too much. There is such a thing as bobbleheading. I don't think you do it. I don't think you do it.

[B]

You know, I love that when you term.

[A]

When you just feel yourself just like. You're like, no, no. So I. I'm a recovering bobbleheader.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay, I'm just gonna come out.

[B]

Yes, you're safe here.

[A]

I mean, I'm recovering bobbleheader, and it was my New Year's resolution two years ago to stop Bob.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Yes, because too much warmth takes away from your competence. So we talk about the balance of these cues. If we send too much warmth, our credibility goes down. So highly warm folks are seen as likable and friendly. But people. People don't take them seriously. People push back on them. They can't raise their rates or get a raise too warm. When we have a lot of warmth, it decreases our competence. Now, the other hand is there are some folks who are very high in competence. Signaling high competence. If you're high in competence, people take you seriously, Think you're in charge, Think you're capable, but they don't like you. They think you're a bad collaborator. They don't open up to you. And so those are both, you know, challenges.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so if you are bobbleheading, you are too high in warmth, and it means that people will not take you as seriously. So you want to nod purposely, like I. You're nodding when you agree with me, I hope.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. Right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You're not nodding by default. I was doing it all the time, which took away from my credibility. So if you are. If this is you, if you're a bobbleheader, I have a trick for you, which is.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You just need to replace it with the head tilt because it's impossible to do both at the same time. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's.

[B]

I look crazy, right? It's not a good look.

[A]

So that's what I would do. Right. It's weird. So that's. I'm on video a lot. Right. I have to be careful. So that's what I would do. I'd be like, right. And it's still warm, but it's okay. Like, it still works. This is my awkwardness. Right. I had to just replace it. So that's you if you're an overnighter. So competence, on the other hand, I just want to talk about competence for a second. Competence comes from stillness, comes from eye contact, and it comes from hand gestures.

[B]

So big hand talker.

[A]

I'm a big hand talker, too. That's why I always have to have my nails done.

[B]

Right. Same. I try to hold my hands sometimes to stop using them so much, just to calm down a little bit.

[A]

Yes. Because it's a spectrum. Right. Like, same with knotting. So you. I. That shows me that you have a lot of warmth, but you need to, like, you know. Yeah. Calm down. High competence, we would say. High competence. Okay, so we say in the research. Yeah, because. So gestures. I mentioned earlier in your profile picture, I love a hand gesture in a pose. And that is because our. I think our hands are like the windows to the soul. We tend to look at hands for trust. And that's because if we can't see someone's hands, we wonder, what's their intention. We also look to hands for comprehension. So if I were to say to you today, I have a really big idea for those who are listening, I'm holding up a very little thing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You'd be like, but, Vanessa, it's so small. And that is because your brain gives 12.5 times more weight to my gestures.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Which is crazy because liars don't practice their gestures. So the reason we like a gesture is because we know it's very hard to lie with our gesture. So if someone says, like, I'll. We'll do an experiment. Want to do an experiment? Okay, so I want you to. I want you to say five, but hold up three. Okay, ready?

[B]

Five.

[A]

Horrible. Hard.

[B]

Because you have to think about both separately.

[A]

And it's really hard to lie with our hands. So the reason why this is important is because we are looking to gesture for truth. So if I say I have a really big idea and I hold it like it's beach ball big, you're like, well, it does look big.

[B]

Right?

[A]

That is a big one. Right. But if I am like, I have three ideas. You're like, well, there's three. And by the way, if you don't be able to interrupt, you say, I have three things I want to talk about today. Number one. Number two. Number three.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because we're trusting. Oh, well, she has three. She better get through all three. So we look for very highly competent people. The best speakers, the best TED talkers. They use purposeful gestures. They show visible hands. So they always, like, start with a palm showing, and then they underline their concepts with their words. And so if you're presenting or you're speaking or sharing an important idea, the more you can emphasize with your gesture. Not crazy movement, but emphasize, the more people are like, wow, she really knows her stuff.

[B]

It's so fascinating. And do you think. I mean, this is all just naturally done, or do you think people are paying attention? If you're doing a TED Talk and they're getting these stats and they're like, okay, well, I'm going to come out waving, showing the palm of my hand. Yeah.

[A]

There's a certain portion of the population that are naturally, very highly charismatic. They come out the womb with great gestures. Like, they are always gesturing. But most of us have learned, or they notice. Wow. Like, oh, a really good TED speaker. They tend to, like, sound and look a certain way. Like, for example, every TED Talk sort of sounds like this. Today I want to talk about a big idea.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'm going to break it down into three areas that will change your life.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Yes.

[A]

Right. Like, that's the TED Talk voice.

[B]

It is.

[A]

Right. And I've just cued. You're like, well, she sounds smart.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Even though I was. I was.

[B]

Three ideas.

[A]

We better hear those three ideas that are going to change my Life. What are they? And so that vocal tone told you that I had high competence. And so yes, there's a portion of it that's natural, but I actually think that what's holding most of us back is we are warm and we are competent, but we don't know how to signal it. So the curse of very smart people. And most of my students are high achieving, super talented, whip it smart. But they don't know how to showcase their idea. They don't know how to present in front of a room. They don't know how to pick a guy. They don't know how to turn a casual friend into a best friend because they don't know how to signal. I really want this warmth, but also take me seriously. Likability and credibility. So I wish a lot of it was natural, but I actually think that we can learn it. People skills, body language. It's a skill like math or science. I think that the longer we can keep our kids off their devices so that they have to figure out, oh, it's awkward if I don't make eye contact.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Oh, that moment of do we handshake or hug or high five is really awkward. Here's how I'm going to do it. I'm going to signal clearly. I teach my kids three body language things. So if you have any kids in your life, teach them these three things. First is try to notice someone's eye color. If you tell a kid to make eye contact, at least like I have, you know, seven year old and two and a half year old, they're like, what?

[B]

Right?

[A]

But if you're like, what was their eye color? It gives them a reason to make eye contact. And then you explain to them when you make eye contact, you notice their eye color. It shows that you want to know them. Okay? So notice their eye color and try to show them that you like them. Second, hands first. So always approach with your hand out.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So you're clearly signaling the greeting that you want. Especially for little kids who maybe they don't want a handshake, maybe they want a high five, maybe they want a fist bump, maybe they just want to wave. I want them to know that they can be in control of how they want to be greeted and that hand gestures are very important. So like visible hands. And the last one, this is so important for littles, is weird, but I tell them, imagine like you're wearing a cape, a superhero. When they wear a cape, they roll their shoulders back, they have their chin held up high. I want to maximize the Distance between your ear and your shoulder. And kids are always like, really? Why? When kids get nervous, they tend to take up as little space as possible. Even, like I see, adults will say hi on zoom, like this. Hi.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that destroys your credibility.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

So I say to my daughter, I have two daughters. So I say, you know, maximize this with your ear and your shoulder. Stand like you're wearing a cape. When you take up space, people pay attention to you. When you take up space, people take you seriously and they believe you. And that's a really important gift we can give them early on. And us too. Right. Like, I also, when I'm in video, on photos, in person, I'm trying to maximize this weird distance.

[B]

Right. No, those are. I love all these takeaways because, like I said, I don't care your age, your gender, what you do. I think all of this is so helpful for work, for friends, friendship circles, any of that. Do you notice male versus female, do some struggle more than others, or.

[A]

So I don't think one struggles more than. They don't struggle with body language more than others. But I have noticed that there are different cues. So, for example, the research actually finds this is that women typically default to higher in warmth. This makes sense. We are often taught from a cultural perspective to be caring and nurturing and to be liked. And so we'll do anything to be liked, even if it means throwing our competence under the bus. And so women, I think, will often, in the desire to be liked, they sacrifice their need to be respected. And I want both.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that is a struggle that more women have than men. Not always, but often. Men often struggle with the opposite, where they're told they're seen as intimidating or hard to talk to or cold. And they struggle with the warmth piece, and they struggle with the emotional piece or showing the emotion piece. And so it's really important that we help men. Again, it's not always that you can show warmth and emotion, and that doesn't mean that you're not a man. It means that you're showing warmth.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And warmth is a good thing. So I see that difference. I also see funny, nonverbal cue differences. So I've noticed mental health men maybe commenting can correct me, but men, I've noticed, they do a male nod. So when men see other men, they go, yes, like that. And I have a theory that men, when they see other men, they know, they go, hey. And it's because they're willing to show their jugular. But if they see another man, they don't know, they go and they go down. And so there's like this kind of theory that maybe if you go like this, you're like, I see you, but you're protecting. But if the guy, you know, you're like, look at this. I'm.

[B]

Look at, look at my jugular.

[A]

Look at my jugular. You know what I mean?

[B]

No offense, men, but it sounds like a very man thing. I know.

[A]

So I have noticed that, that weird difference. I also noticed that men like to have deep, intimate conversations side by side, like at a bar, like at the bar or in the car.

[B]

So. Right.

[A]

And like even like men will like kind of like turn away and like want to like sidle up to you to talk to you and you're like, no, just no.

[B]

Right. Because women want this face to face. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Women want this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so I think that's just like a preference difference. Like maybe it's like a territorial thing. So there's like little gestures like that also, like, you know, the way men and women flirt is very different.

[B]

Very different.

[A]

So you know, women subconsciously want to call attention to their, their health of their skin. And they often will self touch. So like they'll self touch their hair, they'll self touch their lips. That's a thing that men often don't do. Whereas men will try to claim space more. They want to look bigger and broader. Then that's just a different way to make peacock fascinating.

[B]

Everything that you like. I would be afraid to be your friend.

[A]

I mean, it's hard.

[B]

I mean, everyone's laughing, but I just mean because you would know.

[A]

I only have three, so it's okay.

[B]

Your two kids and your husband. Oh my gosh, no. Just because you would know if I was like, could anyone throw you a surprise party?

[A]

I mean, learning this. So I wasn't like this growing up. I was very awkward. I was misreading all these cues. And I would say my 20s were really hard. That was when I was coming up with like my code of non verbal. Like I was starting to do the research, I was starting to code these cues and break down even conversation. Like how. What is our blueprint for how we have good conversation? And I had friends that were not truthful or they didn't want me to be truthful with them. And that was hard. And I lost a lot of friendships. And my best friend from college, she was there, but it was really hard. And now like my circle is small. It's really tight. I have also like a public image also, which you Understand? And it's. I want it real small and real tight. And it's great. It's amazing, right?

[B]

I am all about quality over quantity. I think you do that when you're a teenager in your 20s. You just acquire a lot of people, but they're not always good for you.

[A]

I also think, look, ambivalence, you know, like, there's those people. I don't know if you still have these people. I somehow I have some of them. Where, like, there are people, you see their name on their, on your calendar and you're like, yeah, that is very emotionally draining.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And ambivalent friendships are worse than toxic friendships, in my opinion. They studied police officers and they found that police officers who have toxic relationships are happier in their workplace than police officers who have ambivalent relationships at work.

[B]

Oh, no way.

[A]

And that is because if you don't like someone, like, if you know, oh, like that friend of a friend, like, not my person, you're not going to go talk to them, you're not going to go have lunch with them. There's no brain space they take up. They're not your person. But if you're like, it's my friend's best friend, right? Like, oh, that cousin of a cousin of cousin, you know what I mean? Like, you're ambivalent about them and then you're agonizing about it. And actually, emotionally, that takes a much bigger toll. So I would say, like, the clearer you can get on those people, the tighter your circle can be where they're like, heck yes, about these people, the more emotionally healthy you are with those relationships.

[C]

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[B]

You said you're a recovering awkward person, but do you feel that anyone that thinks that they're awkward can get over this awkward stage?

[A]

Oh, yes. Yes.

[B]

And how does one go about that?

[A]

Yes. Okay, first is I'm so excited you're watching because you're my people, right? Like, recovering awkward people everywhere. Like, we think that we're stuck there. We are not stuck there. There is so much we can do because one awkwardness dresses up in certain ways. Here's what I mean by this. Awkwardness can dress up as introversion or like shutting down. I know people who are awkward and they completely shut down and they can't think straight and they go almost like, numb. Awkwardness can dress up as the opposite, as showing off, as name dropping, as being over the top.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

Yeah. Awkwardness can show up as meanness. Right? Or Bullying awkwardness can show up as judgment. So there's a lot of ways that awkwardness can show up. And so first thing is identifying that you don't have to do that anymore. Right? Like you might default to shutting down or judgment or being mean and no judgment. That is just. That was a fear mechanism for you. That's the first thing. The second thing is everyone has their own flavor of charisma. You do not have to fake it till you make it. You do not have to pretend to be a bubbly extrovert to be liked.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That was the mistake I made for so long is I thought the only way I'm going to make friends and to be liked is to pretend to be this bubbly extrovert that I'm just not. I can be. I'm ambiverted. Okay, so then it is what is your flavor of charisma? First, who, then where, then what? Who. It is really hard to not be awkward around ambivalent people. The reason why I want you to do this 30 day, we'll call it a cleanse, a social cleanse.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Is that it's setting you up for failure. If you're with people who make you feel a little uncomfortable or a little bit of dread, it's so hard to be your best self with them. So who makes you your best self? Who makes you feel like they just bring out the funny in you, the likable in you? They appreciate you for who you are. Even if that's a very short list. That's your list. Those are your people. And so that's the first thing is only practice this with those people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They're going to make you charismatic. They're going to tell you where you're naturally charismatic. Second is where. And this is one people forget. So I want you to think, where do you feel your best self? Like for example, for me, I love one on one conversations. I love coffees, I love going to get tacos, I love cooking with friends. I love having people over to my house and hosting a very small, like six to eight people at the most. I have a lot of siblings also, so I'm used to big family get togethers like the. That's my spot. So I just know that about me. So where, where is it for you?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Find your place. And last thing is the what. And this is the hardest thing, which is I think what social media is having trouble with is I see all of my friends life highlights in their reels. So no longer do I get the joy of oh I got a puppy.

[B]

I know. The mystery of life is gone, right?

[A]

So, like, my friend comes over and she's like, I got a puppy. And I'm like, oh, I know, right? She's like, let me show you a picture. I'm like, oh, no, I've seen them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then she's like, I named it. I'm like, I know. What a buzzkill.

[B]

Totally. And I also so much think that desensitizes us for even the excitement of things that should be that exciting and joyful and things that I would normally share. I'm like, no, because they're gonna see it. Or. And instead of me telling my friends something on my own, I'm like, oh, they'll. And not like, I'm like, they'll hear about it. I just feel like, oh, there's enough information going around, and I really hate that. And my sisters and I, we talk about that. We used to. Like, we don't even tell each other things sometimes because we get so desensitized. But I'm like, oh, my gosh, Court, I heard this happen to you. It just takes away not only the mystery, but I think we aren't as excited to share things anymore. Right?

[A]

Yeah. Or, like, I'll drop. I'll tell my siblings something good. And they're like, heart. I'm like, yay.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

As opposed to like, a hug or high five or this. And I think we've taken the joy out of that sharing. And so I think everyone should know the three levels of connection in conversation and in all of your relationships, you should be thinking about these three levels of connection. This is why sometimes you, like, don't click with certain people. It's because you can't actually. You're having trouble getting from level to level. Level 1 is called General traits. Occupation, family status, hometown. This is why you ask everyone, where are you from? Oh, that part of the city. Oh, what do you do? It's because, like, we have to kind of know those general traits to be able to go deeper. You can't start a conversation with, like, so tell me your greatest fear.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, I would love to do that, but, like, we can't. It's, like, awkward. Yeah, I learned that the hard way. Like, I. My awkwardness also comes with asking way too personal questions too quickly.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

That's, like, part of my sort of love that for people. Good. I've already done it today.

[B]

Okay, good.

[A]

So, like, we. We. We check off those traits. If you are an awkward small talk, you're probably stuck in that level where you're always like, you see that, like, random cousin, and you're like, how's the kid? Same old house. Yes, you're stuck there. If you want to level up with.

[B]

Them, I was just going to ask you, how do you level up with them?

[A]

Yes. You have to know what you're going towards. The next level is called personal concerns. This is research out of Northwestern University that basically, personal concerns is values, motivations, goals, worries. You know, if you're on level two with someone, if you could tell me what their biggest goal is right now, what worries them at night, what gets them up in the morning? Like, what excites them? If you know that you probably are on level two with them. If you don't know that, those are the questions you want to ask. So the questions, like, working on anything exciting these days. Like, instead of, I would love to go on a what do you do? Diet. Yes. I think what do you do? Is basically asking someone, what are you worth?

[B]

I agree, but I also think people just do it out of habit.

[A]

It's habit.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And also, we're trying to check that box of level one.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So here's a challenge. I have a challenge. May we all just pause asking, what do you do? And instead, like, don't let yourself ask it. I know it's a habit, but instead, ask, Working on anything exciting these days, if someone loves what they do, they will tell you, right? If someone is not defined by what they do or they're ashamed of what they do, they will tell you something they actually love and excites them. And then you're getting into, like, the values. And then you can say, I have a little thing that I use, which is like, on Mondays and Tuesdays, I always ask, do you do anything fun and exciting this past weekend? Because then, like, a. You're known for that. Like, all my teammates. My teammates are all over the world. They know I'm gonna ask them that on Monday or Tuesday. And so they're like, I do more fun and exciting things. Cause I know you're gonna ask me.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, I love that. Just, like, great.

[A]

Like, be known for it.

[B]

Right?

[A]

So on Monday and Tuesday, I always ask, you, do anything exciting this past weekend? On Thursday and Friday, I always ask, do you have any fun and exciting plans this weekend? And on Wednesdays, I don't talk to anyone. Ambivert.

[B]

I love that. Yeah, it's great.

[A]

It's like a rest day. Yeah. So you can be known for these questions. Or like, I Have a friend who always asks me, what are you learning? And you can bet when I see lunch on the calendar with him, I always learn something right for that lunch. Like he makes me better. Yes. With that question also, what's your goal? What's your goal this year? How can I help? That's getting into level two. Level three is for your closest people. And I only have two people on this level. And some people only have one or no people. It's called self narrative. Your self narrative is the story you tell yourself about yourself. It's how you make sense of your journey and purpose in the world. So it is critical to know someone's self narrative because then you know how they think and how they're making decisions. So for example, I've noticed there's a couple. I'm researching this for my next book, which is Hero, Healer and victim. I noticed those are three common ones. Heroes, self narrative always sound the same. I've had challenges and struggles, but with hard work and grit and resilience, I always overcome. And everything in their life is that. Whether it's work or romance or personal, they're always in that narrative. That's their self narrative versus the healer is another one. I found a pattern. Healers are always of service. In fact, usually their careers are even of service. They're nurses and doctors and teachers and coaches and trainers. And their narrative is I am here to help others. I'm here to serve the world. The issue with healers is they often say yes to too much.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They burn out. They're always putting others first.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so they're. But they're constantly doing it. No matter what. They're always over giving. And so it's wonderful to be in a relationship with them. But they're also always over committed.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The last one, which is really important, if this is you. This used to be my narrative until I worked to change it. And anyone can change their narrative is a victim narrative starts the same as a healer. I had challenges, I had mistakes. But with grit and hard work and resilience, I wasn't able to overcome. The number one question you can ask yourself is do you feel lucky? People who feel lucky typically have more of a hero self narrative. People who feel unlucky or life has been against them have a victim self narrative. And typically that repeats. Self narratives are self creating. If you have a victim self narrative, you literally see the world differently. You miss more opportunities and how were.

[B]

You able to get yourself out of having the victim mentality?

[A]

So I in that awkwardness I felt like I was doing something. I was causing my own problems. I was getting in my own way. And that's a lot of victims will say, like, I, I, I'm getting my own way or I'm unlucky. And I realized that the only person who could change my life was me. If I wasn't fighting for me, no one else was going to be fighting for me. And so I had to learn how to stand up for myself. I had to learn the skills of reading body language, of knowing how to communicate. I had this dream of helping people communicate. And I was like, how do we do it? I started on YouTube in 2007. No one was on YouTube in 2007. But I was like, I have to try it. And slowly. I had little micro wins. And I think this is the way you change it if you want to change your narrative. Micro wins, little tiny successes, those little successes are evidence to yourself, like, oh, maybe I can do it. And sometimes that's all we can do. It's like a little micro win.

[B]

And I love micro wins. And I don't think that people applaud themselves enough or cheer themselves on enough. I love giving myself tiny little goals that I'm trying to reach. And when I get there, I'm like, yay.

[A]

Are you a to do list writer?

[B]

I love a to do list.

[A]

Don't you love checking off something like you list?

[B]

But I am old school. I need a real piece of paper.

[A]

Absolutely. And I need a cute pen, too.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yes. I also will put things on my to do list I've already done just for the pleasure of scratching it up. It's like adrenaline.

[B]

Yes. No, I love that. I'm like, okay. And then I see, I'm like, I have one left. And I get so excited.

[A]

Yes. And but by the way, when to do list, this is like such a silly productivity tip. But, like, this is research based. Is like doing a to do list is great for organization, but it's actually better for winning. Like the art of making a to do list the night before if you want to be old school, or that morning is literally just setting yourself up for a bunch of wins, you know, especially if you break them down into very small things. Every single time you do it, your body produces dopamine. Dopamine is the chemical of excitement. It's chemical of motivation. When you check off a win, you're more likely to win more. And what's crazy is there's this really interesting research study. They brought people into their labs and split them up into two different groups. One group, they had them take a basic, like, intelligence test. The second, they had to do the same test, but they changed the directions very slightly where they sprinkled in achievement oriented words. Those are words like success, achieve, master. They wanted to know if you prime someone or cue them with win words, do you think more like a winner? That is exactly what happened.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Even three or four win words made them perform better on the task, made them spend double the amount of time working on the task and help them enjoy the task more. So when you're doing that to do list, you're checking it off and you get this flood of dopamine, which makes you feel like a winner, which makes you think like a winner, which makes you do even better on the next task. I also very strongly believe in a not to do list. Do you have a not to do list?

[B]

No. So you don't do certain things? Don't do those things? No.

[A]

Yes. So a not to do list is all the things you know don't serve you. They're the things like, you know that you should not be doing it because they usually cause you cortisol or adrenaline in a bad way. So, like, I might have my list. Do not check social media.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like, that would be on my not to do list or I will not be in my inbox during my golden hour. You know, like, a golden hour is like your most creative time. So, like, you can actually also have a not to do list. Wow. And you get to check it off if you didn't do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is this an excuse for me to have more lists? Maybe.

[B]

And I'm a color coded type of list. Like, I love a good color coded system.

[A]

By the way, you just did a lower lid flex and I forgot to explain it.

[B]

Oh, my.

[A]

You asked the squinting. Yeah. You asked and I. You just did it and I forgot to explain it. Okay.

[B]

Oh, gosh.

[A]

So a lower lip. No, it's so good. It's competence. This is. I see. I tangented. And we're all the way back. All the way back around. Okay. So a lower lid flex. When I'm trying to see something far away, I flex my lower lid. Because actually what it does from an anatomical perspective is I'm blocking out light. And when we block out light, it means I can see more details. So we know this is a universal cue. As if someone hardens their lower lid. You just know that I went from listening to scrutinizing. Right. Like, so if I'm like this, I don't do it very often. You do it a lot is like, if I'm going, I just look a little. A little bit more skeptical or like, I'm really trying to deeply listen or deeply understand because I don't think I.

[B]

Am questioning or scrutinizing you.

[A]

You're deeply listening, Right? Right. So it's. It's not a positive nor a negative cue. That's why this is a very interesting one, is it's high competence. It shows deep listening. And here's what the crazy thing is. I think I was looking at people's Sexiest Men Alive. Like, for research.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I noticed that, like, almost every man is doing it. Like, he's like this.

[B]

Well, that's Zoolin.

[A]

Zoolin or Blue Steel. Right. Like, why? Is. Because we love a man who is deeply listening to us, don't we? So the. So the reason why all the hot men, I think they've learned it is they know that it's sexy to see a man who's lower lid flexing because we're like, oh, he's deeply listening to.

[B]

Me in our soul.

[A]

So it's a very high common cue. It's good as an interviewer because it balances out your nods. Right. It's a great natural balance. And you can do it when you're speaking to show that you're deeply listening to someone. You also can watch for it to see. Oh, this is a point that they're really trying to understand. I was giving a presentation to, like, a C suite group of people, and I noticed that the CEO kind of lower lid flexed when I was talking about oxytocin. Oxytocin is the chemical of connection. Very simplified. That, like, when we hug or touch, we produce oxytocin. And that makes us feel the warm and fuzzies. We also get it with eye contact with. We also get it with mutual laughter. And it makes us feel. This person gets me. We love it. So I was talking about in the presentation, and he. And I could see him, and I said, does that make sense? And he goes, but doesn't it put you in labor? Because he remembered that his wife had gotten pitocin, a form of oxytocin, to go into labor. And I was like, yes. Afterwards he said to me, you know, I immediately felt heard like, I felt like that didn't, like, catch me up because you addressed it. And I got so much work with that company after that, because he just felt like I got them. So you can notice it of like, are we good here? But also, I became A better teacher. Because I realized that it was confusing if I didn't say, it does a lot of things in our body.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's complicated.

[B]

I just want to make sure, because I don't know, I'm doing it. Like, I notice it from watching the podcast, and I'm like, why am I doing that?

[A]

I am deeply listening.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. But does that scare someone?

[A]

Like, no, it just. It. I know that you are paying attention. I know that you were deeply paying attention. Now, context is important here. Like, if I were to be like, your girlfriend, and we're sitting together and I'm like, I'm gonna teach my kid how to go skydiving, you'd be like, right. Then I would know that you're feeling, like, a little skeptical. So you can actually use it as a nice way to be. Like, really?

[B]

Right. I want to know this because I'm nosy. So you studied Da Vinci's Last Supper painting. I know this is so random, but this is so fascinating to me, and I want to hear what you discovered and broke down.

[A]

Okay, we should break it down. Yes, yes. Like, hopefully they can show it. So I saw this painting when I was young, of course, and I was like, oh, it's so beautiful. We love it. We're captivated by this painting. Like, I'm always obsessed with historical pop culture. Things that we're all captivated by. Why are we captivated by this painting? It is the perfect balance of warmth and competence. And in the painting, the central figure, Christ, is showing the perfect balance of warmth and competence. Let's break it down. What is he doing? He. So he actually is going like this. He has one hand up and one hand down, one palm. So a palm up is a warmth cue. Right. We talked about this earlier. When I. When you can see my palm, you know, I'm not hiding anything. A palm down cue. We know famous people who have done that. I'm not gonna do it. Okay, but can you imagine historical figures who maybe have done that? Yeah, that's a authoritative cue. So, like, for example, if I were to say, sit down. Right. Like, when. That does not feel good.

[B]

No.

[A]

Right. We don't like it. Or when. When you're giving a command and you say, you know, like, everyone pay attention. Yes. It's very commanding. So this is a perfect balance, literally, in his gestures of warmth and competence. Then what is he doing? He has a head tilt. Head tilt is a universal warmth gesture. Why? When I say, do you hear that? We expose our ear. So it literally makes him look More empathetic. Like, he's listening. But also, if you measure every single body in the picture, he is taking up the most space in a picture.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So the head tilt is balanced with a competence gesture. Right. The more space we take up, it looks like he could be wearing a cape.

[B]

Right.

[A]

His shoulders are down. He has the most space. Like every other photo, every other image, every other person is like, with their head.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Their distance is the smallest. So here Da Vinci was subtly cueing us to, yes, he's powerful, but look, he's listening. Look, he has palms visible. But also he's very commanding and authoritative. You also will notice that Judas takes up the least amount of space and also has the most negative facial expression. And then notice the fists. The people who are the apostles that are making fists are also the ones that were known for withholding.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

So even that's amazing.

[A]

In the painting, we see these subtle cues, which is why I think, one, we were captivated by the painting. But second, why Da Vinci was so created, so many amazing works is he somehow, subtly knew these things.

[B]

I'm trying to look at their feet.

[A]

Their feet, yes. Yes. Christ's feet are pointed towards us, which. What do we like the most?

[B]

We.

[A]

Then we feel like the most important person in the room.

[B]

I'm a geek when it comes to historical things. I really am. So whenever I'm hearing, like, I'm watching a documentary about, let's, I don't know, the pyramids or Egyptian etchings or. It's so fascinating. Like this Da Vinci painting. How on earth is he so aware of all of these things that you have studied for decades?

[A]

Yeah. And with. With the help of many researchers.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Thousands and thousands of researchers.

[B]

All of our technology and information and it's wild.

[A]

Oh, girl, you text me when you see one in history. Because there are so many interesting ones. Like, I love dissecting, like, old speeches and, like, hidden cues and speeches. Hidden cues in paintings. There are so many. But I think this is true because there's a universality to it. That painting is old.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But somehow we were captivated by it. I even think, like, Mona Lisa. Right? Like, why are we so captivated by Mona Lisa? Is because she's showing a little smirk, which makes her look better than us. And we're like, why does she feel better than us? That is mysterious to us.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

And so I think there's, like, a hidden language happening behind all of our interactions. And if we know how to read it, we all become more purposeful and that benefits all of us.

[B]

Before we wrap up, is there anything else you want to leave us with? I felt like you've left us with so many gems and jewels and I.

[A]

I would say, like, let's go on a 30 day adventure together. Right? Like, you can change a lot in 30 days. So 30 days we are going to stick with the heck yes people. We're going to purge those ambivalent relationships. We're going to stop asking what do you do? And we're going to start asking the good questions to get to level two. Working on anything exciting. What are your goals? What are you learning? And the last one is find your flavor of charisma. What's your who, what and where? Like, let's spend 30 days like all.

[B]

I'm ready for the 30 day challenge. Let's do it with Coco and Vanessa.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you. Hi. Bye. Bye.