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Know What You Believe with Michael Horton
Has the Culture War Replaced the Gospel? Harold Senkbeil and Lucas Woodford
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- [00:01]
Sola Media Announcer
In hard soil, how does the church take root and continue to grow? Now, I know it's tempting to become cultural warriors, spending our energy trying to reclaim what the church has lost. But there is a better way. The Culture of God's Word by Harold Sankpel and Lucas Woodford calls us back to faithful mission in a post Christian world. Not to win a culture war, but to plant the seeds of God's Word and to trust him and to for the harvest. Request your copy today with the gift of any amount@solamedia.org offers.
- [00:36]
Mike
We don't want to live in the village green. At the end of the day we can all leave and return to our houses of worship. But our goal is to encourage conversational theology in the village green where we can rub shoulders with Christians from different traditions and. Well, I have the privilege of having an old friend on I'm old in terms of the years of our friendship,
- [01:10]
Harold Sinkbile
it's over 30 years. I'm sure.
- [01:13]
Mike
Harold Sinkbile is with us and a new friend, Lucas Woodford. It's great to have you on the program. Harold Sinkbile is Executive Director Emeritus of Doxology, the Lutheran center for Spiritual Care. Five decades of pastoral experience. He's taught in the seminary classroom and in parachurch leadership. He's the author of numerous books including award winning the Care of Christ and Calamity and my personal favorite, Dying to Live. Hal, it's great to have you back on the program.
- [01:52]
Harold Sinkbile
What a joy. Mike, you know, I can't believe it's over 30 years ago. I think that Rod Rosenblatt and I traveled in a van many, many miles to a radio studio via live radio
- [02:03]
Mike
hookup with we were just teenagers then,
- [02:06]
Harold Sinkbile
I think you were and went back to your bachelor pad as I recall afterwards.
- [02:11]
Lucas Woodford
That's right.
- [02:12]
Mike
And Lucas Woodford is president of the Minnesota South District of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, previously served as a pastor for 15 years and fellow of Doxology, which Hal founded. It's great to have you both the program today talking about such an important subject as we think about how we can reach the lost without losing the reach. Essentially how our mission can look more like the Book of Acts than the evening news. So it's great to have you both since you've talked about this, thought about this, and written about this for so long. So first of all, give me a little bit of background for what motivated you both to work on this project together.
- [03:02]
Lucas Woodford
Sure. Hal and I have been friends and became very close friends for a number of years now. Originally we met in my doctoral program, he was my doctor father and began talking about the mission of the church and what does that entail and what does that look like amid faithful pastoral care as we certainly reach out to the lost and shepherd the found. And so we began talking on this over a number of years. And really this book is the product of about 10 years of conversation that we've had. Began writing it on it in article forms, different places. And our conversation and fraternal brotherhood on these discussions and family matters and what's going on in the culture. Culture really led us forward as we began seeing different trends in culture that were going on. We began recognizing this trend about contextualization. And we were saying, yes, that's true and good, we should be mindful of that. But what about the text of scripture? And so the context and text began playing back and forth as we observed some extremes in culture and how the church was responding that were going overboard in our opinion about the contextualization movement, where we saw things, things like a health club church or a brewery church or a cafe church or one you can even watch a documentary on this called Fight Church. And then some of the extremes were strippers church and swingers church.
- [04:40]
Mike
Wow.
- [04:41]
Lucas Woodford
So we're saying there's a concern that we had for these movements within the contextualization movement, which we recognized was flowing out of the broader movements that had happened in the church. I suppose if you look at the church growth movement that had started and then the emergent church that responded to that, the promises that were of the church growth movement that weren't met, the emergent church was upset. And so they had their own version of what the church would look like. And then the movement forward to things like metro spirituality and the missional church movement. So we began looking at. We wanted to have a conversation on this and we wanted to keep in mind certainly a common sense approach towards contextualization. So we call it common sense contextualization. But we wanted to give priority to the text of scripture. And so during those times of conversation, we said, you know what, we should probably write about this and offer the church an explanation of what it looks like and how the New Testament church upheld the word of God and the culture that the Word of God creates when it's allowed to lead forward.
- [05:49]
Mike
The title is the Culture of God's Word. Faithful Ministry in a Post Christian Society. The Culture of God's Word. That title itself might kind of need some explanation for some of our listeners. Can you go into that a bit?
- [06:05]
Harold Sinkbile
The term culture, of course, Means many different things to different people. But according to our definition, it's the artifacts, the language, the customs, the values of any people group. Obviously these are different and distinct depending upon the situation that you're in. But what we were finding is that there was far too much attention being paid to the nuances of each subculture within the broader culture. And to try to adjust the message of the Gospel to each, the desires and interests of each people group and kind of waters down the message. If you look at the Book of Acts, you see there's one clear message, the proclamation of Christ Jesus and him crucified, that connects with each and every subculture in various and different kinds of languages, ethnic groups. And as the Gospel spreads from Jerusalem to Judea, Samaria, uttermost parts of the earth, there are nuances that happen here and there, but always the same message is proclaimed. So with that in mind, we thought, well, let's take a look at how it was that the apostles went about this work as they addressed shifting cultures, indeed, in a very competitive religious market, you might say a lot of pagan influences being broadcast throughout the Roman Empire at the time. And so they didn't turn tail and run. They boldly proclaimed Christ. And that message, by the power of the Holy Spirit, grew. The church we find throughout the book of Acts, not once but three times the phrase St. Luke records and the Word of the Lord grew. So the Word of God has an inherent power by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to attract and to draw and to create new minds and new hearts among those who hear the Word of Jesus.
- [08:11]
Mike
I often say the Word doesn't look for an audience, it creates one. You folks talk quite a bit about the Word creating the church. Can you unpack that a little bit?
- [08:25]
Harold Sinkbile
The Word of God changes minds and hearts. The Word of God is a creative power. By the Word of the Lord, the heavens were made. Scripture says at the beginning of creation, when the earth was without form and void, and God spoke and said, let there be. And there was. So this inherent power, this is a reformation principle, that the Word of God is an efficacious word. It does something. It's not just information or data, but when God speaks, he creates. And so this is true also in terms of the written Word, which comes from the mouth of Jesus, who is the Incarnate Word. So this Word of God creates a new and transcendent culture that's able to draw people from every language, people, group, ethnic group into God's kingdom. So that there is neither male nor female, but all are One in Christ Jesus throughout geographical areas and throughout different generations of time. So the Church of Christ is transcendent and is able to draw people into its fellowship from all kinds of ethnicities and languages.
- [09:45]
Mike
Without diminishing that absolutely fundamental point, how do you respond to those who might say, well, just as the Word became flesh, assumed our human nature, not a particular man, but assumed our nature, but he was a particular Jewish person of his time and place. It isn't just transcendent, it is embodied in a particular time and place. And how do you negotiate the reality on the ground of, yes, the Word creating its own metaculture, but within particular cultures?
- [10:32]
Lucas Woodford
We certainly engage and recognize there's a common sense nature to understanding God's Word while we still affirm its transcendent quality to it. So regardless of the particular people, group or subculture one might be a part of, we recognize the importance of a common sense contextualization approach. Meaning you have to know the language that people speak. If it's a different language than you are, it's good to know that language and speak it. And sometimes, yes, if you're dealing with a farming community, then those subcultures there, than you were someone that's in the urban community, you might have a little bit different vernacular and you should be aware of that. And in terms of dress and food, those items are common sense that we recognize would be a part of culture. But the transcendent nature is God's word, that irrespective of whatever time or place or people you are dealing with, God's Word is spoken. And it sets the tone for the culture of the Word. And the culture of the Word we simply define as the fullness of life enacted by the living and creative Word of the triune God. And so that transcends all cultures. And that creative nature of it in terms of when God speaks, realities are created, continues on. And so we have that as the basic premise of understanding that yes, we recognize various cultures will exist, but there is that transcendent nature of God's Word that's going to transcend every culture. And so it brings about the life certainly of morality, but the spiritual reality that we have and the importance that regardless of whatever culture you're in, people need the forgiveness of sins and they need the shed blood of Christ to cover them. And so that's the, the transcendent quality that we uphold as we set forward the culture of the Word.
- [12:33]
Mike
If the Word of God creates the church, what happens when we surrender it or sideline it in favor of other words? That we think are more useful or irrelevant. Does it create a different community?
- [12:49]
Harold Sinkbile
I think there's always a tendency, especially in America, we're very pragmatic people, to try to use the word of God rather than allow the word of God to use us. The genius, I think, of the Christian church through the centuries and in various geographical areas is that it manages to connect to all kinds of peoples and languages and customs, and yet to draw people from those distinct people groups into an eternal fellowship. And that happens as hearts and lives are changed by the dramatic power of the Holy Spirit working through. Through the Word. The Church, I think, in our wisdom, is called this catechesis. There's certain key texts in Holy Scripture, the Lord's Prayer, certainly, and the Ten Commandments, which gives us the structure and order of God's creation, how he intends human beings to live in accordance with his will, and what's really good for them as human beings. And then, of course, there's the Apostles Creed, which kind of distills in kind of a Reader's Digest form the wonders of this great saga of salvation. God first created the world and ransomed and redeemed it in His Son Jesus, and then sanctifies it by his Spirit through the forgiveness of sins, and indeed leads to the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. So this overarching narrative, this story of God's salvation, is what the church is trying to communicate to each and every people group throughout the generations. By this catechesis transforms the hearts and lives of people to conform not to the values of their neighbors, but rather the will of God and the newness of life that he intends the fullness of life for time and for eternity.
- [14:45]
Mike
What do you specifically take away from the Book of Acts for putting wheels on this emphasis on the Church as a culture produced by the Word.
- [15:01]
Lucas Woodford
So Acts, we think, gives us a decent blueprint for the Church as its beginning. It gives us this roadmap for how did it occur? We have Pentecost occurring. And then throughout the Book of the Acts, you might say there's a bunch of mini Pentecosts that are occurring as the. The Church continues on. And at the core of it, of course, is the Word of the Lord. And when it states, the Word of the Lord grew, there is also with it the people who are gathered around it. And so at the start, in Acts chapter two, after the Pentecost has occurred, it says that they then gathered around the apostles, teaching the fellowship, the breaking of the bread and the prayers. And so it's Giving us certainly how the church is created, but then also as it continues on, where they gather around the Word and are nourished by it, the Word and sacrament, then they go out into their daily lives and are carried by the Word and where the Spirit takes them and are reaching out, evangelizing with the Word. And so we think that this framework is a good framework for us to take a look at even in our modern day, as we look at the power of the Word at work in the lives of people, just as it was in the lives of those in the New Testament church. In the Book of Acts, as you
- [16:22]
Mike
point out in your subtitle, Even Faithful Ministry in a Post Christian Society, you're arguing that one reason the Book of Acts is such an important blueprint is because it's inspired by God, but also because we're living in a post Christian society. They were living in a pre Christian society. So how does believing that the church is the creation of the Word keep us from either triumphalism on one hand or hand wringing on the other? I see a lot of both, especially maybe in conservative circles, we do a lot of hand wringing. This is talking about the culture being the worst it's ever been in history and so forth. How does. How does that comfort us that that Word, above all earthly powers, no thanks to them, abideth?
- [17:18]
Harold Sinkbile
I think that's a very good question, as you can see by looking at the cameras, the pictures on your screen. And we're two different generations, Lucas and I, and so we come at the life of the church in the contemporary society from two different perspectives. But I think, by and large, even the younger generation Lucas represents, remember, he remembers in his youth when literally in rural America, you tend to think that everyone was a Christian, that's no longer the case. You can't assume that. I think after World War II in America especially, was kind of the heyday of mushrooming and numbers growing churches, building churches, planting churches right and left. And more than that, if you look up and down your street, by and large, to a great degree, public morality and mores intended to correspond in a loose way at least to Christian values. That's no longer true. So we expected the culture to do some of the heavy lifting when it came to the life of the church. So what's happening now is that people look at this and they don't have to be an old guy like me to begin to become a little bit worried. You don't have to have a lot of people in the pews with this color of hair to realize that there might be an expiration date on the church if we don't do something radical. And so, like I have a friend who said the process usually is the same. When a church decides to go off the deep end, somebody says, oh my goodness, this is a crisis. We got to do something. And somebody says, well, here's something, let's do it. There's no evaluation according to the word of God as to what's true and lasting and beautiful in accordance with God's will. We see in the Book of Acts how the church did not cave in to the prevailing pagan culture of its day. It did not correspond its own habits, its own marital customs, its own sexual habits to the values of the people around it. But the church charted its own direction. Why? Because it was convinced that it was a kingdom, not of this world, it was in this world, but it was of the Word, not of the world. So with that conviction, we read in the Book of Acts in the various cities where the gospel was proclaimed, the complaint against the Christians was, these people are disrupting things. They're turning the world upside down. They're changing things. Why? Not because they were moral crusaders, but because they knew a living Lord who transformed their lives.
- [20:13]
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- [21:06]
Lucas Woodford
I think one of the challenges that we recognize that the church has to deal with is when folks are feeling what they would consider the threat against the church and what's going to happen to it. So I think you get two basic reactions. You get anxiety or panic, as Hal was talking about, but sometimes you can also have immobilization and inaction then. And what we're contending for is it's a balancing act. That analogy you think that Hal put in there, you got to walk across a river on the log balancing without falling off one side or the other. And so as we approach the challenges that we're in right now, we want to recognize the importance certainly that God's word sets forward. But I think the phrase, how we say it is common sense contextualization exercised with holy discernment will develop a salutary adaptive capacity, meaning we recognize that the church has many transcendent qualities of that which are driven by the word of God. But in its expression of that, we can also be mindful that there is some adaptive capacity, the local expression, expression, or the organization of the church it has, that can be expressed as different congregations deal with the challenges of the time. And so that's where we look at adaptive capacity. Isn't saying that we're going to let culture adapt the word and have it as it will. No, we're recognizing there's a common sense nature to that, the expression of the local congregation and how it's organized itself. So in my own area of things, so I serve as a bishop, I oversee 232 congregations. And one of the challenges that I see regularly with congregations who are on the downward trajectory, but they've hamstrung themselves in some ways because they are relying on their constitution to look at what can they do as an organization. And their constitution is so outmoded that they never made any updates to it for the last 40 years. And 40 years ago, they were about 3,000 members, and now they're about 35 members. And so they lack the ability to have some nimbleness or adaptive capacity because they're being bound in their minds to their constitution. So that's what we mean. As one example of what we're talking about, adaptive capacity for the local congregation as it gives expression to itself amid a changing culture, wherein, though of course, we'll always contend, the word of God always sets the tone and leads the way.
- [23:50]
Mike
Often I think all of us who have kids and those who don't as well are wondering, what about the kids? Where are the kids going? And wouldn't it be better to make things a little bit more fun in church to keep the young people? Is that wise? Or is it actually bringing young people to the point where there isn't any reason to go, yeah, I'll start, and
- [24:17]
Lucas Woodford
I'll let Hal jump in here in just a moment, because this was a conversation I was just having with one of my kids when we were wrestling through with this. I have seven kids, various ages, 22 down to four, and first grandchild as well. But we were having a conversation on this, on the nature of young folks being in church and the nature of fun. And so I just posed the question to them. Now, this might go to the nature of Catechesis. And we unpack this more on the four places of good soil where we think the Word needs to be sown. We can unpack that later. But as it relates to the idea of fun, I just said, well, what's the chief central message of the Word of God? Well, yeah, that it's the forgiveness of sins. Okay, does fun forgive your sins? So it's the reality of, I'm not saying we can't have fun and that's a wonderful good thing, but of what is needful, so what is essential for it? And of course it's the forgiveness of sins. Now that goes to a catechesis question. Of course. And if we're so heavenly minded that we're no earthly good, to help people understand what the need for the forgiveness of sins, yes, I certainly understand that. But the transcendent nature of the Word of God has elements that guide us in our worship and understanding, the expression of church. And I'll let Hal jump in here now as well.
- [25:45]
Harold Sinkbile
Right. I think probably in reality, Mike, it's the boomers are more interested in fun than the younger people. But I'm seeing a tendency amongst the 20 somethings and even among the teenagers, my grandson and his colleagues, his peers, they're searching for something that's substantive and lasting, something that's really transforming. And you're not going to find that in light shows and the things that can make a big impression. I think there's a tendency on the part of old people like me to try to go back. So in conservative Bible believing Christians think if we just turn the clock back to a simpler time when everybody believed what was true, maybe if we did things the way our parents did or how we did when we were young, then maybe everything would fall back in place. So there's a representation movement I think we see across denominations. And Lucas and I in our book say that, you know, that's the wrong way to go. We need to move forward always. We need to be adaptive to new situations, but with a, with a concern for what is lasting and true and solid that you can sink your life into your foundation in Christ Jesus and the word of his gospel that transforms hearts.
- [27:08]
Mike
You brought up the different soils. Can you go back to that and unpack how you treat that?
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Lucas Woodford
Yeah. So what we say there are four places of good soil that we want to be regular at casting and sowing the word. And so in summary form, it's worship, catechesis, vocation, meaning your daily station of life and hospitality and saturating those four places of soil, we'll call them sowing the seed there is what helps the church continue to grow. So again, we've got. We've touched a little bit about worship already, but the importance of worship central to the life of the Christian. And it's centered upon the word of God, the whole counsel of God, but centrally the person of Jesus Christ and his shed blood on the cross of Calvary. Catechesis, we've noted a little bit as well, and that's the importance of teaching. And Hal mentioned Ten Commandments, Apostles Creed, Lord's Prayer, kind of the historic understanding of what is catechesis and catechisms, if you're using older language for it, but summary of the Christian faith. And so making sure that as people are catechized by the culture, we have a strong, robust, equal counter catechesis, if you will, by the depth of the catechesis we teach by God's word, then we have vocation. And of course, vocation is not simply someone's job alone, but it is the nature of their station in life, where they are at in their life. And so it's in family, the home, if you want to call it the three estates in classical Reformation or Lutheran lingo as well, the state, where we understand the state and then the church. So when we talk about state, it's your role in your place as a citizen, but then also in the church, your place as a Christian and so exercising those vocations in your daily life. And then a key one we have is hospitality, that you be a world that's inhospitable at such times, such to the extent that it doesn't even know what a human being is anymore. We have these people asking questions of what is a woman in a world that's so inhospitable, the church should stand ready to be hospitable to those around it and opportunities certainly to give care, but just inviting them in for a meal, having them over where your home is saturated in the word. So it's an opportunity to continually plant the seed in those places of good soil. So we identify those places of practice for the church with those we have skills that we like to say that can go with them as well. Where I alluded to it earlier, simply the skills of common sense contextualization, where we're mindful of where people are at the needs that they have in their daily life, where we're exercising wisdom or holy discernment, that we call it so that we can stand ready to have some adaptive capacity on things that there is Latitude for us to do that in our organizational or daily expressions of our Christian life.
- [30:32]
Harold Sinkbile
Yeah. I think one of the key things about our book is that we contend that really the church has lost its focus due to the culture wars. There's a tend to try to beat back things that we see that are destructive to the faith. But we use the weapons of sociology and the human terms of the surface things and trying to adjust the way that people think by sheer force. But if you look at the New Testament, you see that our Lord Jesus did not say, go forth and make disciples of cultures, but rather make disciples of people. And we're not trying to convert the culture as culture. We're trying to convert people who live within a culture and usher them in by means of the word of God into this transcendent kingdom of God so that they can live their vocations as lights in an increasingly dark world.
- [31:32]
Mike
What do you say to people who include, you know, those soils you were talking about are. I didn't hear anything about engaging society, you know, engaging the culture. We hear that phrase a lot. So if we just have word, sacrament, prayer, fellowship, hospitality, sounds a lot like just things that go on in your home, your call. You mean just go to work, your vocation. It just sounds too ordinary. What do you say to people who are looking for a little more sizzle?
- [32:12]
Lucas Woodford
Sure. Well, first, I know a guy who wrote some book about being ordinary, and I recommend that as well. Of course, Mike. Thank you.
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Mike
Luke checks in the mail.
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Lucas Woodford
Yeah, it's a great book. Very formative for me at the time when I read through it as well. But yes, certainly there is. The ordinary is often how the Lord works mightily. And we do recognize the role of people in their, for example, as part members of society, as culture. So, yes, go to work, but in your labors as a worker, you're mindful of how you're living out your faith and the truth of that, as well as you're attentive to what's happening in culture, where is their immorality going on? And likewise, as a citizen, you have an opinion, certainly you can have an opinion on what you think public policy should be. So it's not a quietist. We're not advertising, simply a quietist approach where we're not engaged. But we are also mindful about taking some salutary understanding of your role where you're at in society and where the church, certainly the church can have a voice to speak to injustice and a right of redress, even to the government. But we try to make that and keep that in good order, which some might say is part of the ordinary. But that is what we look at across the New Testament and see how the people of God in the New Testament church lived out their lives. Even Paul, he didn't sidestep his rights as a citizen. He in fact he appealed to it. In one case he didn't. In another case he did appeal to his rights as a citizen and to Caesar and so exercised the political process of his day. So it's a careful again that balancing act that we have and encourage along the way as we live out our lives within culture and society.
- [34:11]
Mike
I'm reminded of Jesus comfort to his disciples as they're fearful of the world. And Jesus basically says, well, what did you expect? They hated me before they hated you.
- [34:26]
Harold Sinkbile
What are they going to do to you?
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Mike
Yeah, exactly. But then he says, it is the Father. Don't fear not little flock. I love that little flock. It's hardly a triumphalistic picture. Fear not little flock, for it is the Father's good pleasure to give you a kingdom. And then in Hebrews, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us worship with, with gratitude and awe. Do you think that when we refuse to be on the receiving end of God's gift giving and instead see the church as an opportunity for us to be the givers primarily, We're actually secularizing the church inwardly, internally?
- [35:19]
Harold Sinkbile
I think certainly it's possible. We also like to assert ourselves and inject our latest idea rather than what God has in mind for us. So my good friend John Cloning speaks of a receptive spirituality. The New Testament spirituality is first receptive before it's active. We can only give away what we first received. So to be on the receiving end of God's good grace in Christ Jesus transforms our hearts and lives so that we can be active for him before our neighbor. Passive in faith and active in love is the posture of the Christian and I think also the New Testament church. That's what we need to remember as we face increasingly antagonistic climates socially and culturally and ethically. And yet at the same time we find very promising trends. Like I said, I think amongst some of the 20 somethings, we see a resurgence of interest in those things that are tried and true and lasting. Just the other day I was meeting with a group of pastors in our local public library because I don't have space here in my own home for a kind of a little conference we were having and we took a little break. We walked down the hall and we found a group of, I think about 10 or 12 high school students with their devices, reading out loud, reading scripture out loud to one another, off of their devices. So I think that bodes well for the future of the church. Rather than wringing our hands, as you say, and throwing up our hands in despair, we need to be bold and courageous and confident in who we are and what we've been given to do.
- [37:03]
Mike
In your years of ministry, where have you seen young pastors struggle with understanding this idea of the culture of the word? Young pastors are naturally tempted to do something new and innovative. I think that's just a part of being young. We're impatient and then we get older and we get stuck in our ways. Where do young pastors especially struggle with this? And how can we appreciate the wisdom of old age and also the innovation and new thoughts of younger generations?
- [37:51]
Lucas Woodford
Yeah, it's a good question. I think I see that on the spectrum among the congregations that I have and about the 380 pastors that oversee it, it's has a wide range of ages within it. And so the younger guys, I think sometimes wrestle with, am I doing enough? And so they have to recognize, all right, I need to be busier, I have to prove myself, or be engaged all the more. And so then they frenetically go about their life and ministry and have some challenges for their own burnout or their own sanity. Likewise, I think there's also a wrestling with is the church relevant? Is it being relevant to their community? If we closed shop, one asked me, if I closed up, would my community even know? Would they know that I'm here? And so they have an urgency that's combined with a zeal, I think that can be salutary. But if it's not carefully brandished by the wisdom of those who have been around the block and in ministry for a little while, sometimes it can get overwhelming for them and they can get despondent or in some cases just completely burned out.
- [39:15]
Mike
What final words of hope do you have for. For people who go to church, not just for pastors, but for the rest of us?
- [39:27]
Harold Sinkbile
I think you have. The reality is that here, within the Christian community, wherever two or three are gathered in my name, Jesus says, there am I. So an over fixation on numbers for numbers sake is not healthy. But on the other hand, as Lucas mentioned, paralysis because of the challenge is not the answer either. The more passive we are in faith, the more active we will be in love. Zeal for the kingdom comes in realizing what the kingdom is we are in contact with the eternal wherever we hear the living word of God and receive the sacrament. We have a foretaste already here and now of the eternal feast yet to come. Worship is in this world and yet not of this world. It is heaven on earth. We are coming into contact with the saints and angels wherever we are gathered with the people of God. No matter how humble, no matter how grandiose, it doesn't matter. We see the kingdom of God for what it is. And we look forward to that day when Jesus says, you've been faithful in a few things, now enter into the kingdom of God. And this is the glories have now begun. Further up, higher in, higher up and further in, as they say, as Lewis writes. Right.
- [40:46]
Mike
That'll preach.
- [40:49]
Harold Sinkbile
That's right.
- [40:49]
Mike
Well, thank you, brother, so much for your insights here. I think it's a real encouragement to many parishioners and pastors to be encouraged. Just being faithful at the same thing over a long period of time. It's like watching corn grow. Well, yeah, Jesus kind of said it was like that. So there's something here to being part of the culture that is created and sustained and formed by the Word of God. And we just gotta trust, trust him that he knows how to build his kingdom. Brothers, thank you so much for taking the time to help us unpack this.
- [41:33]
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