How a Skeptical Philosopher Became a Christian with Larry Sanger, Co-Founder of Wikipedia

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: Know What You Believe with Michael Horton
Episode: How a Skeptical Philosopher Became a Christian with Larry Sanger, Co-Founder of Wikipedia
Date: June 3, 2025
Host: Michael Horton
Guest: Larry Sanger

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Episode Overview

This episode of Know What You Believe features an extended conversation between host Michael Horton and Larry Sanger, renowned philosopher and co-founder of Wikipedia, who recently announced his conversion to Christianity after decades of skepticism. The discussion explores Sanger’s intellectual trajectory—from his Lutheran upbringing and philosophical skepticism, through agnosticism and a critical examination of both atheism and Christianity, culminating in his unexpected embrace of Christian faith. The dialogue ranges into philosophy of religion, cultural and technological trends, and what it means to seek truth in an age dominated by both fragmentation and technological acceleration.

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Key Discussion Points

Wikipedia and Neutrality (01:56–03:40)

• Sanger on Wikipedia's editorial approach:
  • Wikipedia was intended to represent a neutral point of view, to make it impossible to detect the authors' personal stances on disputed topics.
  • Over time, Sanger asserts, Wikipedia has come to largely reflect the mainstream academic and institutional consensus, rather than true neutrality:
    • “If there is any point of view that is generally accepted by academics, that appears in the mainstream media, that is in the mainstream as determined by the UN and various other organizations, the mainstream of science, then that is going to be represented in Wikipedia.” (02:39, Larry Sanger)

Intellectual Journey: From Lutheranism to Philosophy and Agnosticism (03:40–11:08)

• Early Questions and Doubt:

  • Raised in the Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod, Sanger’s philosophical questions as a teenager were met dismissively by a pastor, which contributed to his drift from faith.
  • “I was asking what I thought were legitimate questions… He sort of brushed me off. He didn't really give much in the way of substantive replies… I was put off and that sort of confirmed me in my disbelief.” (04:19, Larry Sanger)

• Philosophical Skepticism:

  • Details his turn to philosophy, describing “methodological skepticism”: not denying knowledge outright, but maintaining doubt until adequate reasons for belief are found.
    • “Methodological skepticism… means holding both pro and con as live possibilities as long as possible until all the relevant data is in… I had to have very good reasons to believe [something].” (09:23, Larry Sanger)
  • Sanger avoided the “new atheists” because he found their arguments philosophically thin and dogmatic.
    • “I wasn't seeing very much [good philosophizing] from the new atheists, but they were raising philosophical doubts, but they were making a bad job of it, essentially.” (11:08, Larry Sanger)

Assessing Arguments For and Against Christian Belief (12:07–13:45)

• Skepticism Toward Christian Apologetics:
  • Sanger found Christian philosophical arguments (e.g., from William Lane Craig) either too simplistic or unconvincing.
    • “Just to take an example, you can argue and perhaps even convince me that there is a necessary being, but then it's not clear to me that that's God. The conclusion 'God exists' doesn't immediately follow…” (12:23, Larry Sanger)
  • He was surprised that even introductory presentations did not address the harder philosophical challenges.

Turning Toward Scripture (14:21–18:26)

• Confronting Occult and New Age Influences:
  • A friend, not as a recommendation but as context, introduced Sanger to the pervasive presence of occult spirituality in some elite circles.
    • “[My friend said] if you really want to understand them, I think the place to begin would be by understanding the Bible. That actually is what led me [to read Scripture].” (15:27, Larry Sanger)
  • Exposure to these ideas did not convince Sanger of occult power but prompted him to reevaluate biblical spirituality as a cultural force.

Arguments from the Order of Nature (19:43–25:30)

• Reassessing the Evidence for Design:
  • Sanger articulates a version of the design argument, focusing on the beauty and order of natural laws (using the periodic table as an example) and questioning whether purely reductive scientific explanations are satisfying.
    • “If you list off a number of facts and they explain the order, right?... No, that isn't enough. You actually have to explain why all of those laws are as they are, such that they result in the order... It doesn't really scratch the itch to give what philosophers call a reductive explanation.” (19:43, Larry Sanger)
  • Posits that the alignment of natural laws suggests a purposeful mind:
    • “A plan requires a planner.” (25:28, Interviewer/Host, succinctly echoing Sanger’s argument)

Encounter with the Bible’s Coherence and Depth (27:22–33:57)

• Surprise at the Bible’s Intellectual Rigour:
  • Initially skeptical, Sanger was shocked by the “coherence” and “systematic” thought within the biblical text and its centuries-long tradition of serious theological inquiry:
    • “The more that I asked hard questions about the text, the more the text yielded up interesting answers… that could actually be found in the text.” (27:22, Larry Sanger)
  • Engaged deeply with commentaries (e.g., ESV Study Bible, Matthew Henry), and resources like The Bible Project.
  • His summary of the biblical story—creation, fall, redemption—mirrored the classic Christian meta-narrative even before belief set in:
    • “When I sat down and actually tried to understand the text as it's understood by people who believe it… the story that I saw in there… is reflected in the Bible. The Bible is a remarkably consistent system.” (32:23, Larry Sanger)

The Resurrection and the Case for Christ (34:18–39:08)

• Historical Argument for Christianity:
  • The historicity of the Resurrection became an “essential” pillar in moving from skeptical sympathy to belief, influenced by works like Lee Strobel’s The Case for Christ.
    • “That made a big difference, actually… It was important, extremely important, even essential, that the case be capable of being made, I guess… an argument to the best explanation.” (34:18, Larry Sanger)
  • Describes a period of inner dialogue and “divine Socratic figure,” eventually evolving into genuine prayer and real encounter with God’s presence.

Conversion as Reluctant Yet Inescapable (39:08–42:49)

• A Reluctant Journey to Faith:

  • Sanger describes his conversion as slow, more intellectual and existential than emotional.
    • “Despite myself… I never had a mind-blowing conversion experience. I approached faith in God slowly and reluctantly, with great interest, yes, but filled with confusion and consternation… I was dragged kicking and screaming.” (39:08, Interviewer/Host and Sanger quoting himself)
  • Continues to wrestle with denominational affiliation, influenced by theological disagreements (e.g., the nature of the Lord’s Supper).
    • “I want to get through the issues.” (44:02, Larry Sanger)

• Commitment to Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide:

  • Sanger identifies with key Reformation doctrines:
    • “I'm definitely on board with sola scriptura… And sola fide… I do believe that. I think that's very clearly demonstrated by Scripture.” (42:44 & 42:49, Larry Sanger)
  • Raises ongoing questions about faith, obedience, and participation in church community.

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Christianity and the Age of AI (46:43–52:26)

• On the ‘Singularity’ and Transhumanism:
  • Sanger summarizes the Singularity as an anticipated future where AI develops itself at exponential speeds, leading to post- or trans-human realities.
  • He notes the ancient Gnostic/occultic heritage of transhumanist dreams (“we shall be as gods”), critiquing the illusion that technology will bring moral progress:
    • “If we ever have such mental prosthetics available, they will not enable human beings to be morally better or anything like that… if you could somehow be given little electric shocks when you're about to do something wrong, mental restraints... that wouldn't be an improvement in your character.” (50:48, Larry Sanger)
• The Need for Christianity Amidst Technological Upheaval:
  • Sanger cautions against the utopian promises of digital transcendence; sees Christianity as a vital ballast in a culture accelerating toward both epistemic and existential crisis.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Skeptical Inquiry:
  • “It doesn't take very long thinking about philosophical questions before you get to a point where your average pastor is kind of out of his depth.” (08:12, Larry Sanger)
• On The Argument from Design:
  • “A plan requires a planner.” (25:28, Interviewer/Host)
• On the Coherence of Christian Doctrine:
  • “The Bible is a remarkably consistent system. The fact that systematic philosophy is even possible... through the Old and New Testament writings is extremely remarkable.” (33:07, Larry Sanger)
• On Reluctant Conversion:
  • “I sort of was dragged kicking and screaming… I couldn’t really be taking this stuff seriously… and I actually seemed to feel the presence of God at a certain point. You know, I couldn't really deny that.” (38:50–39:08, Larry Sanger)
• On Transhumanism and Human Nature:
  • “If you upload some piece of software into your brain... that is not going to be part of yourself. What might result is something that is a Frankenstein monster… that represents a threat to your free will because it's no longer yourself.” (50:48, Larry Sanger)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:56 — Sanger on the original neutral policy at Wikipedia and its evolution
• 04:19 — His early doubts and encounter with unengaged clergy
• 09:23 — Explanation of methodological skepticism
• 11:08 — Why new atheism was unconvincing; critique of popular apologetics
• 15:27 — Encounter with occultism as a cultural force; reengagement with the Bible
• 19:43 — The argument from order in nature (design argument)
• 27:22 — Discovery of biblical coherence and depth via study
• 34:18 — Historical evidence for the Resurrection and the role of Lee Strobel’s work
• 39:08 — Sanger describes his slow, reluctant conversion
• 42:44 — Affirming Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide; wrestling with church division
• 46:43 — Reflections on AI, the singularity, and the spiritual hunger of posthumanism
• 50:48 — Sanger critiques digital utopianism and transhumanist ethics

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Conclusion

Larry Sanger’s intellectual and spiritual journey is one marked by relentless questioning, courage to face uncertainty, and willingness to let the evidence lead where it may—even back to the faith of his childhood. His story is a clarion call for churches to take hard questions seriously, for Christians to engage deeply with both Scripture and the cultural forces shaping the 21st century, and for all seekers to pursue a truth that is both intellectually rigorous and personally transformative.

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Transcript

[Sola Media Host]

Here at sola, we're passionate about drawing on historic Reformation theology to equip thoughtful Christians for practical wisdom, connecting the dots between the Bible doctrine, the Christian life, and contemporary culture. All that we produce is free thanks to the many who give monthly as Sola Partners. If you join us as a monthly partner, we'll send you a complimentary copy of Michael Horton's book, Ordinary Sustainable Faith in a Radical, Restless World. In an age marked by burnout and sensationalism, Horton shows us what it looks like to live a deeply normal yet profoundly meaningful Christian life. To get your copy, simply head over to solarmedia.org partner to join us in encouraging even more people to grow in knowing God and seeing everything in his light.

[Interviewer / Host]

We don't want to live in the Village Green. At the end of the day, we can all leave and return to our houses of worship. But our goal is to encourage conversational theology in the Village Green, where we can rub shoulders with Christians from different traditions and expressions. Larry Sanger is best known as a founder of Wikipedia. The Wiki encyclopedia was his he spearheaded the project, named it, led it in its seminal year, and formulated much of its original policy. He has since gone on to lead many educational and encyclopedic efforts, currently is the president of the Knowledge Standards foundation. And most recently, Larry's name and work is circulating again because after decades as a skeptical philosopher, Larry has announced his conversion to Christianity. Larry, welcome to the program.

[Larry Sanger]

Thanks for having me. So, in general, I think Wikipedia tends to represent the establishment point of view in everything used to be required to be the neutral point of view. That's what they call it anyway. I just simply say the neutrality policy, which initially originally meant that it should be impossible to tell what position the authors of the article take on any disputed question that would be raised about the content of the article.

[Interviewer / Host]

And that was the policy you set, right?

[Larry Sanger]

Well, yes, it's the policy that Jimmy Wales and I were well agreed on upon. I don't know what changed on his end and why he allowed it to slide the way it has. Nevertheless, putting that question aside, clearly, if there is any point of view that is generally accepted by academics, that appears in the mainstream media, that is in the mainstream as determined by the UN and various other organizations, the mainstream of science, then that is going to be represented in Wikipedia. And that's basically how it works, as far as I can tell. And that's just based on looking at the contents of lots of articles and listening to other people's complaints as well.

[Interviewer / Host]

Larry, our organization is a A conversation mainly around Reformation theology with confessional Lutherans, Reformed Anglicans and Baptists. And it's a roundtable. Missouri Synod Lutherans have always been near and dear to nuclear to what we do. You were raised LCMS at 17. You had questions and doubts that you say were dismissed by your pastors. Can you recount that a little, how you turn to philosophy instead?

[Larry Sanger]

It actually started with philosophy. Before I raised these questions, I had always asked a lot of philosophical questions without even knowing that that's what they were called. But as a high school junior, I had a one semester class in philosophy and I really enjoyed it. And I was really, you know, on fire with the classic questions, you know, what, what reasons do we have to believe that God exists? Do we have free will or are we determined? And things like that. And what is, what is the ultimate source of our morality? Why be moral? So along with all of my other beliefs, I ended up essentially jettisoning a belief in God because I noticed that a lot of people in my life seem to have messed up their lives in various ways. And these seem to me to be unforced, almost voluntary mistakes that were rooted in false belief that they had about things like the mind enhancing features of drugs or the function of marriage, or how much alcohol it's acceptable to drink and whatever. And these actually struck me as being objective questions that we could settle. But in order to make sure that I myself didn't, you know, ruin my life or at least make it much worse than it could be, I thought maybe the most important thing for me would be to seek the truth with a capital T. And so, as I say, then my belief in God sort of went by the wayside. But I began thinking quite a bit, you know, asking different questions, trying to prove the existence of God and remembering what I had been taught in that class and so forth. And I was not really able to justify adequately to my own satisfaction, a belief in God. And there were a lot of, you know, issues that I had with the Bible as many people who don't study it very hard do. I didn't actually go in person. I called up on the phone a pastor. I don't actually think it was my pastor. I think it was some other lcms or maybe it was even like a Baptist pastor, I can't remember. And just, you know, in order to talk with somebody about my hard questions. Now, I might not have been as respectful as I should have, but I was asking, you know, I suppose what I thought at least were legitimate questions, you know, but he Sort of brushed me off. He didn't really give much in the way of substantive replies. Our conversation was not long and I'm pretty sure he was the one who ended it. He didn't give me much in the way of advice about where I could get to my questions addressed. And I actually thought that perhaps he was not taking my questions seriously. I thought perhaps he felt a little bit personally threatened by them. But of course I was an arrogant 17 year old, so who knows? But the point is that I was put off and that sort of confirmed me in my disbelief. I think it would be fair to say that he had an opportunity to pull me back if he had known the right things to say. But that would have actually required that he be pretty well acquainted with some fairly hard philosophy in order to actually be able to answer. And I thought that all pastors would be able to handle such questions because this is like, isn't this basic stuff? It's actually not basic stuff. It doesn't take very long thinking about philosophical questions before you get to a point where your average pastor is kind of out of his depth. That's my impression, anyway.

[Interviewer / Host]

You became a philosopher and a methodological skeptic. You didn't want to become a nihilist. You didn't like that. And so Ayn Rand and Objectivism was the next stop. What is methodological skepticism?

[Larry Sanger]

Ordinary skepticism is a good place to begin. And that is basically the view that we cannot know something about some area of knowledge. Like, if I can't know anything about science, then I'm a scientific skeptic. If I can't know anything about whether there are actually minds and other people, then I have other minds. Skepticism, methodological skepticism doesn't deny that it's possible to have knowledge. It simply says, as a method of proceeding, when we do our truth seeking, the important thing is always to be sure to have the truth, to make as few errors as possible, and therefore to suspend judgment as long as possible or take a skeptical stance. This is not a denying stance, you understand, It's a skeptical stance, which means holding both pro and con as live possibilities as long as possible until all the relevant data is in, I suppose. And the way that I put it is I had to know what I was believing. I had to have very good reasons to believe it. And of course I had to be aware of what the reasons were. And that's a pretty heavy lift, especially for a teenager.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, absolutely. And you say you were agnostic, sort of passive agnostic, but you were never really profoundly attracted to the new atheists?

[Larry Sanger]

Not at all, no. I mean, I wasn't terribly put off by religion. I never thought that religion was like a force for evil in the world the way that some new atheists do. Never thought that. Always respected my parents and siblings, other family and friends who were and are Christian. It's just that I was not convinced. And yet, due to my philosophical training, because, you know, all three of my degrees are in philosophy, Bachelor's, Master's, and PhD. I knew what good philosophizing is like, and I wasn't seeing very much of it from the new atheists, but they were raising philosophical doubts, but they were making a bad job of it, essentially.

[Interviewer / Host]

You also saw that on the Christian side, Right?

[Larry Sanger]

Right. I think partly this is because people like William Lane Craig were engaged in debates and writing. I remember assigning stuff from Craig in, like, introductory philosophy classes in philosophy of religion, which I taught as an agnostic. Of course, this is introductory stuff. So he doesn't go into very much depth there. But I thought that his presentation of the arguments was much too confident and glib even. I was not at all convinced. You know, just to take an example, you can argue and perhaps even convince me that there is a necessary being, but then it's not clear to me that that's God. The conclusion God exists doesn't immediately follow from the notion that there is a necessary being that explains the contingent facts in the world, which is essentially the thing that the argument from contingency establishes. It certainly doesn't establish the existence of the God of Christianity. So not that I had looked that hard, to be perfectly honest, but no one in my experience had made much of an attempt to basically make the case.

[Interviewer / Host]

Wow, that is something that I think all of our listeners. It kind of. It's a gut punch because all of our churches need to really wake up to this. It's not just people like you. There are people who are less thoughtful about these issues. We have to be ready to have an answer for the hope that we have. Before you began to read the Bible, you say that a friend recommended looking into occult spirituality. Why didn't you go down that path?

[Larry Sanger]

Well, he wasn't recommending it for itself. Without getting into too many details, he opened my eyes to the very phenomenon of organized child molestation, which I didn't even know existed. And even worse than that, the fact that there are some very famous people who apparently have been part of organizations like, like Epstein. And what he was maintaining is, well, you know, don't you know? This is what all the old English public schools are based on. This is like the whole upper class phenomenon. He says, I know all these people. I grew up with all the. With these people. And it's that they're all like. They've got split personalities. I didn't believe a lot of the things that he was telling me, but it was interesting.

[Interviewer / Host]

And they were all into sort of New Agey kind of spirituality.

[Larry Sanger]

That's the other part of it, that these people, even if they put on a show of Christianity, they actually do a lot of dabbling in the occult. And sometimes they're quite open about it, especially in Hollywood, where there is this pedo wood phenomenon. And the whole idea is there were sexual rituals in ancient occultism. And he told me, well, this stuff continues to this day, never stopped. And if you really want to understand people like Epstein, then he said, then you should read these books from. From, you know, Freemasons, Albert pike and a few others. Helena Blavatsky. I was like, I'm not going to read that stuff. I started reading it and it's like, this is creepy. I didn't take it seriously, and I didn't really. And I still don't. I don't know what to believe on that stuff, to be perfectly honest. Not to be quite honest, I don't think I want to know. I thought that if these people who purportedly control so much of our lives take this stuff seriously and yet are able to get away with such horrific crimes, they must do it for some reason. And according to my friend, it was because they were engaged in these occult rituals. I thought, if there's anything to that, if I actually believed that in a spirit world that was somehow empowering these people, which, again, I don't believe that. I don't believe that his version of that. Maybe at some level I think that's true, but nevertheless, I would want to be on the side of the angels. I would want to be on God's side if I actually believed in a spirit world. And so another thing that he told me was that the occult is to a very great extent a reaction to biblical ideas. And I don't think this is necessarily true for the very earliest versions in Greece, for example. You can tell me more about that, I guess, but it certainly seems to be the case for everything after Christianity. Modern occultism makes a great deal of use of perverting the symbology and the concepts of the Old Testament and the New Testament. And I said, okay, if I really want to understand them, I think the place to Begin would be by understanding the Bible. That actually is what led me.

[Interviewer / Host]

Interesting.

[Larry Sanger]

It wasn't because I believed in the occult or like I had studied it a lot and I had a bad experience with it. No, it was nothing like that. I was trying to understand that part of the world which I'd never thought of, didn't take seriously at all. I just thought as weak minded people.

[Interviewer / Host]

Interesting. So you say no one argument led you to believe in the existence of God. You write, from the structure of galaxies to the orbits of the planets, from the movement of waves to the fates of mountains, from the origin of life to the complexity of man, there might well be an explanation of these things. Indeed, it seems unsatisfying to say God flipped a coin or God picked a number, or God just decided it would be that way. Sounds like Einstein saying God doesn't play dice. But of course that is unsatisfying. You say that is hardly the point. Here is the real point. Even if we had a perfect scientific explanation of each of these things, the conjunction of the facts, conjunction key there. The conjunction of the facts in our explanations seems to be driven by a purpose. Can you elaborate on that?

[Larry Sanger]

So I think the best way to sort of introduce the basic idea, which is a take on the argument from design, would be like from the periodic table. Now, any chemistry teacher or sufficiently advanced chemistry student can explain to you why the elements are lined up in such neat rows. But the first time you see the periodic table, it's a thing of beauty. And why is it so organized? I mean, it's almost like somebody wrote this down in a table. And the tables, the different rows and columns, have distinctive features. Chemistry teachers and advanced students can explain why they have those properties. Well, it has to do with electron orbitals. If the orbital is full, then the element is inert. And if it's got a whole bunch of open slots, then it's extremely reactive. So the thing is on the left side anyway, so we don't need to go into, into that. But the point is, if you list off a number of different facts, laws, maybe some constants and so forth, not being a scientist, I couldn't do that for you. But nevertheless, you can list off a number of facts and they explain the order, right? And you might say, okay, well then the work of explanation is done. The reason that the rows and columns are lined up in such a beautiful way, a mentally satisfying way, is that, well, we've got this explanation. But no, that isn't enough. You actually have to explain why all of those laws Are as they are, such that they result in the order any one of them could have been different. So it doesn't really scratch the itch to give what philosophers call a reductive explanation.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's more a description than an explanation. Right. It describes laws and the way things work and more than how they all come together.

[Larry Sanger]

Well, I mean, there are certain features that supervene on more fundamental facts. And that means that given certain facts, there's certain properties that emerge or are true of things at a higher level. So for example, there is a group of noble gases that are inert. They don't react well. Why don't they react? Well, that just falls out as a consequence of certain more lower level facts about reality. We are indeed observing the fact that they don't react, but we're also explaining why they don't react in terms of more fundamental laws. That the thing is, that doesn't complete the explanation because we want to know, well, why are the laws as they are? And more to the point, why do all of the laws come together as they do coincide so that this beautiful structure emerges? And this is just one example then, right? One that's familiar to most of your viewers from their high school chemistry. And the thing is, in the study of nature, there are similar laws to be found at every level of the scaffolding of nature. It's really amazing. It all makes up a beautiful intellectual system.

[Interviewer / Host]

Like Stephen Meyer's study of the cell, right?

[Larry Sanger]

Oh, that the cell is most amazing thing, really, when you start talking about biology, but you don't have to talk about biology in order to see the same results. You can talk about fundamental particles. You know, if certain things weren't the case, then there never would have been atoms. If certain other things weren't the case, then there never would have been the first molecule. And there were times when there were not yet any atoms and when there were not yet any molecules, and when there were not yet any compounds and so on up to higher levels of complexity. At each level of the scaffolding of nature, then there is an expectation of an explanation that explains why this initial state of affairs resulted in something beautifully ordered and yet more complex. That's the basic idea. It's almost as if the end result were planned as the outcome of the initial conditions. Well, that couldn't be the case unless there were some entity that held in mind or had some sort of way of anticipating here. But now we're starting to talk about mental metaphors. So the argument goes, the only explanation that we know of is that there is an anticipated end result and we need to posit a mind that holds the end result in mind and as it were, plans out the initial conditions.

[Interviewer / Host]

A plan requires a planner.

[Larry Sanger]

Exactly. And then there's a lot of other things as I sort of briefly outline in my testimony. I've gone into a lot more detail in other later written work.

[Sola Media Host]

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[Interviewer / Host]

I would encourage people to go first of all, I mean you could just Google Larry Sanger, conversion to Christianity. 14,000 words explaining your journey in remarkable ways. And then you also have lots of follow up comments from people who have asked questions. It's really fascinating. Now you say when I really sought to understand it, I found the Bible far more interesting and to my shock and consternation, coherent than I was expecting.

[Larry Sanger]

In fact, I had read the Bible not that long before to not the whole thing, but selections to my sons. And at that time it struck me as being, you know, what it had always struck me as being basically, at least since I was about 17, Bronze Age shepherds with their very simplistic models and stories of the universe and how it began and what does it really matter? You can't really make sense of reality in this way. Therefore it's not worth paying much attention to it. But here I had an independent reason to start paying attention to it. I actually wanted to understand it as Christians actually understand it. And so I was asking myself old questions. Why would God actually order the destruction of a whole people? And is that really just for example? Or how could it be that a 90 year old woman inspired lust in Abimelech among the Philistines? And just a lot of things like that, various kinds of questions, just trying to make sense of it. And so I looked up the answers. I used a variety of different resources like the ESV study bible gotquestions.org online. It's very useful I used some old, you know, 19th century commentaries, 18th century stuff. Got to really, really like Matthew Henry's commentaries later. And I found that by consulting these resources that the Bible was not nonsense. It actually made a lot more sense than I had expected. And what was really kind of shocking to me is that the more that I asked hard questions about the text, the more the text yielded up interesting answers that it seems to me were not being superimposed by me or by some commentator onto the text, but that could actually be found in the text. So the whole seemed to make this beautiful kind of system. Whether I would take it very seriously or not is another question. I didn't immediately believe the answers or anything, but the fact that all of these theologians had addressed my questions, that was their job. I thought, well, that's just like weak minded apologetics. I didn't realize that that actually is at bottom what theology does and has done for like 2000 years. And I didn't realize that. And so that by itself was kind of a shock also because that meant that, that the Bible had to be sufficient to sustain such a long tradition of inquiry. And coming from philosophy, from history of philosophy especially, was one of my areas of specialization when I was in grad school was early modern philosophy. So I got really deeply into the philosophy of David Hume and I knew what it was like to ask really hard questions of texts and so forth. And the point is the fact that the Bible could sustain 2000 years of careful study, like even harder sorts of questions that I would ask about. Hume had been asked 2,000 years ago by people of, of the Bible and yet people were still studying it. It's just amazing to me that kind of shifted my perspective a little bit initially. So I was thinking maybe there's actually something to be learned here. I didn't have any clue that that might be the case.

[Interviewer / Host]

I was struck by your method of doing things, stepping into, not outside of, but stepping into. You're not a believer yet, but sort of stepping into the Bible and letting God speak to you. You say that before you became a believer even, you basically wrote a summary of the Bible relaying creation, fall and redemption in Christ as the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. That's pretty good theology for a skeptic.

[Larry Sanger]

Thank you. I had already been watching some good videos, like from the Bible Project.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yes. Yeah.

[Larry Sanger]

And you know, I don't agree with everything that those guys say necessarily, but when they're on, they're right on and they're very, very useful, very helpful for someone such As I was. Again, if. If what you say is true, I think that's because when I sit down as a trained reader of difficult texts, when I sat down and actually tried to understand the text as it's understood by people who believe it, not by critical scholars, but by the people who believe it, the usual story is the story that I saw in there. And I've read the Bible five times now. I'm just about to finish at the end of this month, I will have finished the fifth time. The last five years. The story that I wrote down there has not changed much, but that's because it is reflected in the Bible. The Bible is a remarkably consistent system. The fact that systematic philosophy is even possible and that that people are able to find the same doctrines using the same symbols developed in similar ways throughout the whole corpus of Old and New Testament writings is extremely remarkable.

[Interviewer / Host]

So all of this coherence, all of this, not just coherence, but the correspondence with reality, it was really big for you. But to what extent was the resurrection of Jesus, the historicity of the Gospels and so forth, to what extent was the historical argument compelling to you?

[Larry Sanger]

Well, I don't know when I started listening to it, because there was a time when I was spending many hours a day doing this because I was in between gigs, so I actually had the time. So I listened to the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel, and it's such a good book to introduce people to the historical evidence for the resurrection and ancillary things like the reliability of the manuscripts and other such matters. That made a big difference, actually. I think if I had not come to grips with that material and followed it up too, I went to the original text, Tacitus and Josephus, and tried to come up with my own judgment about what they were trying to say. And how credible was this? A later interpolation in Josephus and so forth. Still not sure about that one, actually, let's put it this way. That by itself would not have convinced me for sure. I know that. But it was important, extremely important, even essential, that the case be capable of being made, I guess. And what it really came down to ultimately was an argument to the best explanation. So given all of this evidence, it seemed to me, you know, there are two ways to go. Either I continue on in my don't know attitude, or I go where this whole integrated body of evidence is leading, all pushing in the same direction in this really remarkable way. I'm sort of Calvinist enough to not take the credit for that, for my coming to that ultimate conclusion. I sort of was dragged kicking and screaming. Even to quote somebody else I thought I was initially, at least when I started taking these things seriously, I was saying to myself, what am I doing? This is not me. I couldn't really be taking this stuff seriously. And there is actually one other aspect that I, that I haven't talked about yet, which is I had been in the habit since my childhood when I was still believing that God exists, of occasionally having or imagining dialogues with God. It began with what? Even when I was a kid, I never thought that God was actually speaking to me. I was thinking I was speaking to God and I was imagining what God would say in response. And I continued doing that when I was an unbeliever. Except I didn't think that I was talking to God. I just thought this was like say, a supremely wise being that had all the answers and was like trying to elicit them from me, that sort of thing. A Socratic figure, a divine Socratic figure, I guess. So I started doing the same thing, but pretty soon, like within a couple of months that became more of a prayer. Like the things that I, I actually seemed to feel the presence of God at a certain point. You know, I couldn't really deny that. And being the very skeptical person that I was and still am, I thought, well, you know, it's just my imagination. Of course I could imagine that. Why wouldn't I be imagining that? But it made a big difference, let's put it that way. No, I wouldn't believe that my imaginary friend were God if that's all it were. This is what atheists do. So often they take one aspect of religious experience, they focus on that and they say, taking it entirely out of context, and they say, well, that's just ridiculous. And that's what I was doing. Except I was saying, well, you're not really praying now, are you? Not really. But then I said, well, actually these philosophical arguments actually have much better versions that I never realized before. And the Bible makes a lot more sense than it did before. And at a certain point it was just all coming together, started firing on all cylinders as it were.

[Interviewer / Host]

Despite myself, you say I never had a mind blowing conversion experience. I approached faith in God slowly and reluctantly, with great interest, yes, but filled with confusion and consternation. You've already said a lot of that. You were not, in some sense, you came kicking in screaming. You were not expecting the Bible to be so profound in its new world that it opened to you, but it did. What is the outcome of that for Larry Sanger. Now, I know there's a lot. A lot of people have asked, well, what about your involvement in local church and where are you going to land? And sort of still thinking about that.

[Larry Sanger]

I have been. I've been thinking about it ever since I first experimentally went to church, I think in May of 2020, so about five years ago now. And I went another half dozen times over the following year, maybe two at most. But then I just stopped. It's hard to explain. I think it's hard for some people to relate to. On the one hand, any philosopher, PhD philosopher who goes to church and actually really tries to understand the Bible and goes through the sort of process that I do is not going to be an easy person to talk to about the things of God. For the average believer is.

[Interviewer / Host]

Well, I think you'd be a fascinating person to perhaps, okay.

[Larry Sanger]

And I have had a lot of interesting conversations with people, especially with people like you, with theologians. But a lot of times, you know, the sorts of things that I say and questions that are raised are like, I have no compunctions whatsoever about asking questions that, like, make people grit their teeth and clench their fists, you know, like, wondering if they're gonna. If their faith is going to get through this. I just, like, barrel on ahead.

[Interviewer / Host]

Well, yeah, good for you. Good for you.

[Larry Sanger]

I actually think of that. That pastor that I talked to before, you know, there are some questions that are really difficult for people to grapple with. And I am, you know, like a lot of philosophers, we're sort of trained to live in a position of uncertainty and not be too bothered about it. So that has allowed me to be uncertain and stay uncertain about certain theological questions, which are pretty important in order to really understand them better. And when I do finally make up my mind, I feel like I really have good reasons for the position that I have arrived at. I can tell you I have made up my mind about a number of theological issues. So I'm definitely on board with sola scriptura. I wrote a whole reasonably lengthy essay about it. It's not a book or anything. You don't have time to write books about everything. But.

[Interviewer / Host]

And sola fide, you said justification through faith alone.

[Larry Sanger]

I do believe that. I think that's very clearly demonstrated by Scripture. It's not hard to find that in Scripture. There's aspects of it, though, that are more difficult. Like, okay, what is saving faith? That's an uncomfortable question for a lot of people. I think faith is not merely a declarative belief, but fidelity to God. And if, as Jesus says, being faithful to him means keeping his commandments. If loving him means keeping his commandments, which is basically why he says, you know, your highest obligation is to love God and love your fellow man, then does that mean that I am being unfaithful when I commit a sin? Well, not really, but can you explain why it's not. I've got some ideas on that. It's a very interesting question. Can I really go and bother very many pastors with questions, a lot of questions like that? I mean, I would hope so.

[Interviewer / Host]

I know some great LCMS pastors who could answer those questions. Really?

[Larry Sanger]

Well, yes, but it's not just that. Also, that. I mean, seriously, I was not expecting my conversion story to have the effect that it had, but I suppose I thought it might something like this. I never imagined it would be like it was. But now just imagine I announce I'm joining the lcms, and then I changed my mind after two days, in two months. Oh, well, you know, I actually started thinking really hard about the Lord's Supper, and I actually do think it's symbolic. So. Sorry, that make me look bad and make them look bad, and it would undermine the pastor, especially if I start talking about it, you know, making videos or whatever, explaining my reasoning. I'm at a point where when I finally caught up with all these interviews and stuff, then I will have some more time to sit down and actually work through some more of these questions. I have, in fact, made three different videos over two hours in length about the Lord's Supper and whether the text supports the idea that it is, in fact, symbolic or is some real form of the body and blood of Christ. Yeah. I want to get through the issues.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. And it's great that you take these divisions in Christendom very seriously, not just as people got mad at each other once upon a time. And no, these are really important questions, and you are to be commended for taking them seriously. Can I ask you one more question? So I have been, for this project I've been working on, studying as a theologian. I've been looking at the philosophy behind artificial intelligence and transhumanism, posthumanism. And I wonder, certainly you've heard about the singularity. Briefly explain that. And then would you say the recovery of religion is not only needed for societal morality, but as a kind of ballast in the midst of accelerating technologies? What do you see as the need for Christianity in particular, amidst discussions around AI?

[Larry Sanger]

It's a hard one. In fact, I've been recruited by this Group that want to start a certificate of, I guess, moral uprightness for LLMs, for chatbots, essentially, and other AI tech. The singularity is the notion or an event that people think might happen probably in the near future, if it does happen, where essentially artificial intelligence is so advanced that it can develop itself and thereafter make exponentially fast developments of itself. The idea being that all we need is energy and a few other things, maybe nanotech, and we will have basically unlimited amounts of processor power. And if processor power means intelligence, then we could have ultimately unlimited amounts of intelligence. And then what does society look like if there are machines that are many orders of magnitude smarter than human beings? The idea then, is that once such machines come online, then human nature itself, or at least the human experience, changes greatly. I mean, we can already see how the human experience is changing and will change a lot more as a result of just the AI tech that we have now. But what if it gets so great that you have but to describe some new invention and it's like put in front of you, for example, in a better form than you could imagine. A large part of the speculation, and it is just speculation, there isn't any really good reason to think that there ever will be a singularity, is that ultimately the digital minds will become so much advanced that they'll be able to start inhabiting human minds, inhabiting human brains. And this seems to be Elon Musk's idea with neuralink. He's trying to get out front of that train. And then the idea is that we become superhuman beings with prosthetics, essentially, mental prosthetics. Now, what the transhumanists say about this. Not that I'm an expert in transhumanism or anything. I'm not. But it's interesting that you, an expert about the history of the New Age and Gnosticism and that sort of thing. It's interesting that you'd be interested in the Singularity, because a lot of people have noticed that this is just a continuation of the idea we can surpass our mere fleshly human limitations. But here's how we do. We do it digitally. And so that's the pure beauty of the untethered mind actually becomes the beauty of the digital mind or something.

[Interviewer / Host]

We shall be as gods.

[Larry Sanger]

We shall be as gods.

[Interviewer / Host]

Noah Harari's title, Homo Deus.

[Larry Sanger]

Yeah, right, right, right. It's ridiculous, I think, But I have an argument, actually, I'm working on a book. If we ever have such mental prosthetics available, they will not enable human beings to be morally better or anything like that. And there's a good reason to think not. And that is that there are no prosthetics that we can put on ourselves that we call part of ourselves. We call them prosthetics. And the idea is if you upload some piece of software into your brain, so to speak, however it will be described in the future. I don't know. That is not going to be part of yourself. What might result is something that is a. A combination a Frankenstein monster of yourself and something else. But then that represents a threat to your free will because it's no longer yourself. Right. So if you could somehow be given little electric shocks when you're about to do something wrong, mental restraints, which are actually digital restraints, that wouldn't be an improvement in your character.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. Well, Larry Sanger is best known as founder of Wikipedia and is a philosopher who has been brought to faith in Christ by the Holy Spirit through His Word. And we are really grateful to have the opportunity to talk to you, Larry.

[Larry Sanger]

Well, thanks for having me on. It's been a real pleasure.

[Sola Media Host]

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