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Knowing Faith
Answer a Koala According to Their Folly? Season 16 Q&A Episode
00:45:57
Jen Wilkin, JT English, and Kyle Worley answer questions submitted by listeners!
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- [00:02]
A
This episode of Knowing Faith is brought to you by Crossway, publisher of Stand in All How Reverence Transforms Our Worship and Our Lives Laura's story seeks to lead Christians in scriptural reverential worship all seven days of the week. Sharing her 20 years of experience as a worship leader and award winning recording artist, she clarifies what worship is and what it isn't and what's at stake without it. Pick up a copy of Stand in all wherever books are sold or visit crossway.orginall to learn how to get 30% off with a free Crossway plus account. You ever listen to an episode of Knowing Faith and think, my goodness, I'd like to do this in person somewhere? Well, you are in luck. Our friend and co host Jen Wilkin has a series of events coming up. These are Bible teaching events at six different locations in the us. They are called in the Word with Jen Wilken. Worship is Provided by Sandra McCracken and what you can expect is in depth teaching and study of the Lord's Prayer. So you're going to learn not just how to pray, but why we pray. These events include worship time for community scripture study and prayer. These are at six events over the course of the next year. If you want to go hang out with Jen and study the Lord's Prayer and have some wonderful worship led by Sandra McCracken, go to lifeway.com in the word again, that's lifeway.com intheword they are coming to your area so go check it out@lifeway.com in the word and hang out studying the Lord's Prayer with our friend and co host Jen Wilkin. Go check it out. What does it mean to follow Jesus when it cost everything? In May 2024, the world saw headlines out of Haiti. Davey and Natalie Lloyd and their friend Jude were killed while serving as missionaries. Three believers who gave their lives in faithful obedience to Christ. Strong to the End shares the story of their lives marked by quiet faith, steadfast trust and a love for others that endured even in danger. Written by Davey's parents, David and Elisa Lloyd with Dean Merrill, this account invites us to trust Christ and count the cost. Let their faith strengthen yours. Order your copy of Strong to the End today wherever you find your books. This is Kyle Worley and I'm joined by my co host Jen Wilkin and JT English Another Q and A Episode Guys, this is crazy. I don't know what number of Q and A episodes this is, but we're up there. It's hot.
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B
How can People still have questions.
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A
I know, right? I guess we've gained a lot of listeners since those first couple of Q episodes. I remember the first time we ever recorded a Q and episode Q and A episode. We had never like, we didn't have like our own Instagram or Twitter. We were at a church and they were using their own stuff. But we didn't get a lot of questions submitted for like the first Q and A. And I remember I went down the halls before recording and I asked people, what question do you think? Like, people we worked with, what question do you think we should answer? And then I was like, we've got some great listener submitted questions. Very much a P lied. It was more of a P.T. barnum kind of virtue.
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B
Virtuous lie.
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A
Yeah, yeah, I need to. I still have not come up with a creative title to give to social media. Ashley and producer Brad on what to title this Q and A episode. You know, I like to come up with creative titles for the Q and A episodes. You guys have any suggestions? Any puns on questions and answers? Any illusions or metaphors or riffs?
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C
There's gotta be something biblical here, doesn't there around questions? Yeah, probably like in Second Samuel maybe. I don't know. I wouldn't know.
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A
Answer a full according to their folly.
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B
Don't answer. There you go. There it is. Yeah, there you go.
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A
Okay, great. I'll work with that. I'll work with that. Well, listen, you guys asked some really wonderful questions. Thank you for submitting them, and we're going to get to them pretty quickly. But before we do that, let me just. Let me tell you, it's been really funny that you guys have latched on to a couple of things. One, boy, oh boy, did this audience latch on to the koala story. And you know what? I just want to let you guys know I don't need any more koala gifs in my Instagram dms.
- [04:21]
C
I think you should keep sending guys. This is an opportunity.
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B
I feel simultaneously guilty and vindicated. So I don't even know how to juggle those two.
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A
Yeah. And I just want to tell you, Chat GPT is allowing previously uncreative people to get really creative with koalas and Kyle. And so, you know, I just wanted to let you know my. My DMs are full and are accepting no new messages, koala related or otherwise. But hey, the other thing I'm grateful that you latched on to is we want to beat these Mormons in the podcast charts. I'm glad to see that becoming A hashtag, I'm here for this knowing faith podcast hashtag, beat the Mormons. If you want to help us beat the morm on the podcast charts, they're all over religion and spirituality. You don't even know it because it looks vaguely Christian. You click on it, you realize, oh, got fooled by a Mormon. Don't let them beat us. So go to Apple Podcast and leave a review over at Apple Podcast and help us beat the Mormons at their own game. We cannot allow them to dominate the charts they want to do. They want to dominate the celestial heights in the heavens one day. We cannot let them have the podcast charts today.
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C
We talked about this. I feel like they're also trying to dominate social media.
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A
Yeah, they're out there.
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B
They're not trying, they're crushing it. Not only that, but the whole mom and clothing market. I mean, like, you cannot buy a cute thing without a Mormon having sold it to you these days.
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A
Or watch somebody make sourdough without figuring out that they're in Utah somewhere. But anyways, God bless them, God love them, share the gospel with them, but we don't want them at the top of the podcast chart. So get on there and leave a review over at Apple Podcast. And when you do drop a question in, like this question that was left in the Apple podcast reviews, as you know, I've told you, I read every single one of them. If you want a direct line to me, you do not need my phone number. You just go leave a review over Apple Podcasts like this person did. And they asked this question, is it biblical for a woman to speak at a conference where men are in attendance? Interesting question. I love that. And it's a hot one. And we're coming in hot. And I told you, if you leave a review and drop a question in over at Apple Podcasts, you have a very good chance of getting my attention. And you did. I'm not going to put make Jen answer this question first because.
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B
Oh, okay.
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A
Oh, well, not first.
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B
I thought you were going to say you weren't going to make me answer.
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A
I'm going to let Jen weigh in on it, but I'm going to start with jt.
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B
Jt, that is our first question.
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A
That is our first question. I'm not joking around. We're going for it.
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B
Great.
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A
Jt, is it biblical for a woman to speak at a conference where men are in attendance? Or maybe you can answer it. Why would that potentially be different from a sermon event on a Sunday? What's your thoughts on this, J.T.
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C
no, it's not biblical.
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A
Dang.
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C
Go, Jen. Your turn. Here's something that I think I want to make sure we've tried to like, talk about our theological conviction here is generous complementarianism. And I think one of the things that I want to do is somebody who believes in that, and that's what we try to do at our church. I mean, I'm a complementarian, and happily so. I also want to honor a question like this because they're trying to do what the Bible says. Like they're, they're not coming from a place of malice. They're not coming from a place of confusion about what God's Word says. They know that God's Word says something specifically about how Christians ought to handle God's Word and specifically how women ought to handle God's Word. So we receive questions like this as a well intentioned, earnestly seeking what does God's word say and how do we apply it? So thanks for this question.
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A
Good faith dialogue. Good faith dialogue.
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C
That's exactly right. And so a big thing for me, and I don't want to speak for the two of you, but I would imagine you would answer this similarly, is, is there is something that we have to recapture in the evangelical identity that is an ecclesially centered kind of theology. What I mean by that is an understanding of what the church does and is and what is its functions. What is a pastor versus what is preaching at a youth group or at a conference? What is the church doing on a Sunday morning, and how is that different than that seminar that you have on Tuesday night or the nonprofit ministry that you go to on campus? And so something that I would say is I want evangelicals first to recapture what the local church is and what the local church does and why that's fundamentally different than a seminary classroom or a nonprofit on campus like a Campus Crusade or a salt company or a Bible study that might be going on in your community on a Tuesday night or a Thursday morning, whatever it might be. So I believe that the Bible teaches that what is prohibited specifically is that unqualified men and women are not able to teach in the preach and teach in the local church, that the proclamation of God's Word that we would call preaching is reserved for qualified men in the life of the local church. We call those men elders, shepherds and pastors. And so that is not what's going on at a Bible conference. That isn't what's going on at a Bible study fellowship. That isn't what's going on in A perhaps a seminary classroom or a Bible college. And so we've acknowledged on this classroom that there can be times where there's a level of grayness here. Not that it's the church, but like there is a sense in which. Well, actually, I want to pause there. That's my answer. And if we want to come back to kind of the grayness of why this exists, I'd be happy to dialogue with you guys about that. But that's what I would say. It is biblical. I'm totally fine with it. It isn't the local church. The Bible is for everybody. It's for men and for women, it's for young and old, it's for rich and poor. And we want to see the same way that the Bible exemplifies men and women singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, edifying one another with a proclamation of God's Word.
- [09:44]
A
Yeah, I mean, the only thing I would add to that, I agree wholeheartedly. The only thing I'd add is that a conference is an elective thing that you can opt into. The gathering of God's people is not. It's a normative thing. So, like when somebody said like this is one of the reasons why I think there is a distinction for a local church, the gathering of God's people is not to be neglected and it should be a normal part of their Christian life. It's not something they can electively choose to go to or not go to. It's not a voluntary thing, whereas a conference is. And I say that to say, I think that's one of the reasons why teaching, and I would call it teaching or speaking in a conference environment is different than preaching. For me, the preaching event is what? It's not a rhetorical methodology. The preaching event is something that happens from a pastor among God's people in coordination with the Lord's Supper, in corporate worship. That for me is what preaching is. Anything else is speaking or teaching. And you can have convictions about those. But in my view, it's not preaching. It's certainly not authoritative teaching or binding teaching, which is why I think Paul has in mind in First Timothy. And so I see it as different things. So I wouldn't have a problem. I don't have a problem. I go to conferences where women are speaking to mixed gendered gatherings. And it's not a concern for me. Anything to add, Jen?
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B
Just that when you're the woman in the conversation, your views on this, they're not less important, but they are. They are subject to the views of the elders of my church is the way I would say it. So, like, I might have a view on this that is different from what my church elders hold. And I would not operate according to a different principle than my church elders were comfortable with. That being said, I, I do convictionally land where my elders do. And they would say basically what Kyle has said. And I think JT is saying the same thing, that preaching is done by a particular person in a particular context. So in other words, it's done by the pastor elder in the, in the local church Sunday gathering, the weekly gathering. And I think where this gets so muddied for people is because everyone uses words in different ways. So preaching needs to be defined. Right. I just gave a definition of. And it's because all teaching carries authority. Your first grade teacher exercised authority over you in the teaching role. And so when we talk about the authority that's in view in the scriptures with regard to preaching, we have to say what kind of authority? Is it any authority? Is it a particular kind of authority? And the three of us would say a particular contextualized form of authority is in view there. So I, I like to remind people that if I stood in Congress and read the State of the Union address, it would not make me the President of the United States because I don't hold the authority of the office. And so when you think about the meth, it's not. If preaching is just teaching some exhorting people from the scriptures, then I'm guilty of preaching. But if preaching is done so second
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C
grade teacher back in.
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B
Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And so, but what will happen is when JT is invited to speak at a conference, they'll say, we'd love for you to preach at this conference. Or Kyle too, you know, oh, that was a wonderful sermon you gave at the, at the conference. And that's why this gets muddy for people, because if those.
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C
And we don't think that's preaching.
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B
No, no, that's not preaching. And so it's not like someone did a terrible thing by using that word that way. But the more careless we are with the way we use terms, the more I get hit with. She preaches to men on the Internet. And I just that, you know, again, preaching it. The reason that preaching is what it is is because it's, you could call it mandatory attendance right. On Sunday morning. And so no one's getting jump scared when they're at a conference and I'm on the platform because they paid Money to be there to hear the people who are on the platform. That's different than you walked into church on a Sunday morning and suddenly realized that a woman's been invited to deliver the sermon. So, yeah, I love that.
- [14:15]
A
That was super helpful. Thank you. Thank you. And what a great question. Review over at Apple Podcasts. And if you also want to help usbeat the Mormons, then you can go leave a review over at Apple Podcasts and drop your question in there. Promise. Jen, that's the last one. I got it. I got the. I got the eyes from on that one from Jen. That Jen has a very subtle way of laughing and also letting me know, hey, that. That's got to be the last one. We're done.
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B
Noted.
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A
Okay, how about this one? Not sure who gets to answer this, but how much sarcasm is too much sarcasm. So they're just asking, like, about sarcasm as a rhetorical model. Is it appropriate for Christians? Jen, I feel like we've talked about this before.
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B
Do you feel like I should be the person to answer this question?
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A
Well, maybe. I mean, just.
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B
But all sarcasm is too much sarcasm. Now I'm going to qualify that. Sarcasm, people, you need two categories. There's sarcasm and there's irony. Okay. Sarcasm is a form of ironic speech. So irony presses a couple of truths up against each other, and the resulting tension there creates humor. So, like, let me think of a good example. What's a good example of an ironic thing that might happen?
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A
Isn't it ironic if you, like, right on your wedding day?
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B
Yeah. Or sarcasm has a victim. There is always a victim. Someone pays the price for the joke, and it is not the joke teller. So I might say. And so then where does snark fit into that? Well, snark it. It has elements of sarcasm in it, but it's meant to be. You know, we. We all kind of laugh together. Sarcasm may just be. We all laugh at one person, and so we can be snark. And so now I'm going to qualify it a little bit further. The three of us might be a little snarky with each other, and sometimes we are sarcastic. Like, I might poke fun at Kyle or Kyle might poke fun at me or jt, whatever. I do want to just note that the better, the higher the trust level you have with someone, the. The more you are able to have those kinds of interactions. And so when you hear us do that with each other, we're not taking potshots at each other. We're actually. We're having fun within the trust relationship. That we have. And that's why, like, when a relationship is relatively new and someone has a sarcastic speech pattern that they just, you know, are using wherever people get hurt so much, like I hurt so many people with my sarcasm because in my family, it was just kind of the way we talked and I didn't have that trust level with most people I was running into. So I would say it can still cross the line, even in trusting friendships, but you're more able to have good natured ribbing with someone when you've known them a long time and you have high trust. And that's not the same thing as sarcasm. That has a victim.
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A
Yeah, that's good. That's good. I'm remembering a story, like one of the things too, because we've caught in kind of like sideways energy on this online before you guys. And there's a lot written about relationships with influencers and people who write and teach and podcasts. But it's sometimes surprised me, and you guys are seeing like one dimension. You're seeing slices between the three of us of like a constellation of conversations that you're not privy to. So there've been times where people who have jumped. Jumped in the comments to defend me.
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B
Yeah. Like, wow, really hard on you. Or J.T. and I.
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A
And literally I'll be like, wait, what are they even talking about? You know, And. And listen, I. We're so grateful that you guys love the.
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C
I could use some more, to be honest, if you guys want to keep defending me.
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A
Oh, you're the greatest culprit of the sarcasm.
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C
I don't know about that.
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B
No. But again, let's make sure it's not. It's. That's not sarcasm. Sarcasm implies a motor, a mode. Hold on, I can't talk. A motive of anger or a desire
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A
to harm or hold back or.
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B
Yeah, yeah. Or. Or even like passive aggression. Right. And. And that is not the motive behind the three of us communicating with each other. And we assume that's not the motive. And that's why you hear the. The banter go the way that it does. And so if you're not familiar with us or our relationship, you might misread that. But. And again, we would not banter with you the first time we met you. The way that we talk to one another.
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A
That's right. That's good. Jt, you ready for your obligatory trinitarian question?
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C
I love it.
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A
JT1 Timothy 6:13. Many commentaries say the Father. So first Timothy 6:13 is your reference. So you can turn there. Many commentaries Say the Father is who is being referred to when it says in the presence of God who gives life to all things, is this a correct trinitarian understanding? What about Hebrews 1 and John 1, which so clearly emphasizes the Son's active role in creation? Are we separating out members of the Trinity too much? Help me, please.
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C
I'm reading it right now. 1 Timothy 6:13. In the presence of God who gives life, and of Christ Jesus, who gave a good confession before Pontius Pilate. All right, say the question one more time. They're wondering, how can we know that that's the Father if it is the Father?
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A
Many commentaries say that when it says in the presence of God that the God referenced there who gives life to all things is the Father. Is this a correct trinitarian understanding? What about Hebrews 1 or John 1? I think they're probably thinking, you know, through him all things were created, or who upholds the universe by the word of his power for Jesus. If those are emphasizing the Son's role in creation. But the referent to 1 Timothy 6:13 in God who gives life to all things is the Father. Are we being too kind of mono dimensional when we start ascribing those things?
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C
No, I think we can have confidence looking at that passage in particular, 1st Timothy 3, 16 is it highlights specifically the person of the Son immediately after that. So I think that gives us a degree of confidence that Paul writing to Timothy is probably talking about the first person in the Trinity, God the Father. But that isn't the only place that we talk about the Father's work in creation. Even the Apostles Creed does this. Right. We believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And so it's really important that we don't. I didn't hear this in the question, but maybe kind of behind the question is we're not separating out acts of God between the persons of the Godhead. There is a termination point in terms of the Father doesn't die on the cross, the Son does, but the Father sends the Son to die on the cross. And in the same way, thinking of creation, the Father is the one who initiates the act of creation. He initiates it through the person of the Son who accomplishes the act of creation. And he applies creation through the work of the Holy Spirit. So when we think about like first I preached Colossians chapter 1:15 through 21 this past week, and that is one of the Christ hymns. It is highlighting the person of the Son. It even says in verse 18 that he would be first in all things. And specifically, even highlighting he is before creation. All things exist for him and through Him. But that doesn't mean that we would say John 1:1 isn't true that he was a part of this creative work with God the Father or Genesis 1. So. So let's not over distinguish between the person saying only the Son could be working in creation because clearly elsewhere in the Bible, the Father is too.
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A
That's good. All right, are you ready for a little bit of a lightning round? We usually do this at the end, but I'm gonna drop it in here into the middle.
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C
I'm not ready for this. I'm kind of warming up.
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A
Okay. Jen and jt, when you got Jen, when you were on staff, jt, now that you are on a church staff, did you consider or do you consider Sunday your Sabbath?
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B
Am I going first?
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A
Jt, do you consider Sunday your Sabbath?
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C
I don't.
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A
Okay. And just real quick, I mean, maybe.
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B
Maybe Sunday afternoon.
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C
I don't know.
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A
Okay.
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C
Jesus Christ is my Sabbath.
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A
Ah, there we go. That's a good Christological.
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B
I was gonna say this feels a little like. What? What do you mean?
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C
Yeah, there. There is. I don't. I don't hear this in the question, but there really is a Sabbatarianism that kind of thinks, hey, we should be keeping this law still. And I don't follow that camp Jesus is our Sabbath rest, and so we can rest in Him. But I do think there's wisdom in resting our bodies, reminding ourselves that we have a limited nature, not just in our ministries, but in all of life.
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A
And so there's a helpful principle of rest, but there's no longer a law of Sabbatarian practice.
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C
That's right. So for me, I mean, I preach three times on Sunday. There's no way that I could actually practice my limitedness. When I'm working, I'm shepherding God's people. I'm trying to declare the gospel to them. So I do rest and I take time off during the week, every single week, and intentional time away from email and phone. But it's not Sunday, nor is it a law that I must abide by in order to be faithful. It's a wisdom principle governed by God's law that I think reminds me and those around me that I'm limited in nature.
- [23:08]
B
Yeah, that's good.
- [23:10]
A
Jan, you want to add anything to that or you felt good about that?
- [23:12]
B
No, I think that was great. Yeah, I would say. I mean, you know, wherever you land on the Sabbatarian thing, just remember we're all beholden to a principle of regular patterns of rest. Are you tired of shallow discipleship in your life, the life of your church or small group? God is inviting you into deeper places. Real participation in his story, real understanding of who he is and what he has done, and a more meaningful practice of following in his ways. For the last 10 years, JT, Jen and Kyle have been teaching a program called Deep Discipleship in their local churches. And they have now worked with Liveway to make this available to everyone everywhere. Whether you're an individual looking to go deeper, a church leader looking for an accessible way to invite your small groups, classes and student ministry, or a homeschool family looking for curriculum for your high school students, go check out the Deep discipleship program@lifeway.com deep discipleship.
- [24:16]
A
You ever listen to an episode of Knowing Faith and think, my goodness, I'd like to do this in person somewhere? Well, you are in luck. Our friend and co host Jen Wilkinson has a series of events coming up. These are Bible teaching events at six different locations in the U.S. they are called in the Word with Jen Wilkin. Worship is Provided by Sandra McCracken and what you can expect is in depth teaching and study of the Lord's Prayer. So you're gonna learn not just how to pray, but why we pray. These events include worship time for community scripture study and prayer. These are at six events over the course of the next year. If you wanna go hang out with Jen and study the Lord's Prayer and have, have some wonderful worship led by Sandra McCrack and go to lifeway.com in the word. Again, that's lifeway.com in the word. They are coming to your area so go check it out@lifeway.com in the word and hang out studying the Lord's Prayer with our friend and co host Jane Wilkin. Go check it out. Okay. Lightning round. This is for all of us. J.T. what would you. Well, let's do this. The question is, what would you like a different host to write about next? Because. No, no, no, no, wait.
- [25:25]
B
What does that mean?
- [25:26]
A
Basically they're asking JT in light of what Jen has already written on, what would you like to see Jen write on? Jen, in light of what JT has already written on, what would you like to see JT write on?
- [25:37]
B
Okay, okay.
- [25:38]
A
I've got, I've got one for both of you that it's more aspirational in nature and then I'll give you time to think about it for whatever I know you won't do it. I know you won't do it, but I would really love for Jen and Jeff to co author a book on parenting.
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C
I agree with this.
- [25:53]
A
I know I'm not gonna do it, but that's my answer. Again, it's aspirational, and that's all I'll say about it. I would love for.
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B
Okay.
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A
For jt. I would love for JT to write a book about leading an organization into change. Cause I saw you do that real time when we work together, and then I've seen you do it from afar, where you're at now. And I just think you're really good at that. I think that would be a really good book for pastors because, like, we've interacted with a ton of pastors in our Train the Church Ministry Cohort, which used to be like this really hard to get access to Cohort, but which is actually now an online class that you can find@trainthechurch.com we talk about our journey of building on adult discipleship and deep discipleship. You can go get all that there. But. But we had so many leaders who came through that that just had organizational change, management leadership questions. And your insight in that was so valuable that I think you would crush that book.
- [26:51]
C
Thanks, dude.
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B
Yeah,
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C
I want the parent book, too.
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B
Oh, no, you can't have it. But you can call me whenever you want. You know, a funny thing happened. We were at one of my kids churches, and I was meeting the pastor and I was hearing about his whole journey through ministry. And then he goes, yeah, you know, actually about 10 years ago, someone passed along your parenting class, and I'm like, well, you have one of my kids to your congregation. How'd we do? It was really funny. Let me see, what was the point of this question? Oh, I know. I want Kyle to just have some fun. This is not probably plausible, but I would love for him to write a book on some of the popular culture stuff that he's so into connecting dots for people. I think you're really good at talking about it. And I always learn, if not completely new things, new ways of looking at things when you talk about that. And I agree. I think jt, I'll say. I'll say this on the podcast. JT is the best boss I ever had. And he's really. You have a lot of awareness, a lot of. You've always had a maturity beyond your years as it relates to building teams and managing people. And so now you're actually getting some years behind that as well. And so I think even if it's not immediately, eventually, I would love to hear you write on leadership and not the way that a lot of other people write on leadership, if you know what I mean.
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C
Yeah. Thanks, guys. I find that encouraging. And since then, I feel like I've gotten worse. It's like, wow, this is getting progressively harder.
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B
I'm pretty sure that if JT were not a Christian, he could lead a really great cult. So. Yeah.
- [28:33]
C
Is that not what we're doing? Yeah. I. Man, I want my. The first thing that came to mind for me, for Jen was the parenting look. And I can't seem to think of anything else. And part of that's just because I was able to like. I'll never forget the first time that you guys had Macy and I over. I don't think we had Thomas yet. Or maybe he was like six. He was so. I mean, he was a baby, if anything.
- [28:55]
B
Yeah.
- [28:55]
C
And just seeing your family, it wasn't perfect. I mean, I know that you'd be the first to sit. Wasn't perfect. We're just regular people. But like, it was just such a delight to see growing adults grow in their love and affection for you. But also in an ongoing sense. The relationship that your kids have maintained, I think is a goal of a lot of parents. It's an unarticulated goal that I really admire about you guys. And not just thinking about what are the baby years and what am I supposed to do as a parent, but how do I do this with the long view is something I really appreciated about you and Jeff and something Macy and I seek to mimic. I kind of agree with what Jen said too. I'm going to be a bit more specific in what I think Kyle could contribute. Kyle is really, really good at the history of philosophy and laying that into kind of this current cultural moment. And so it wouldn't just be like pop culture stuff, but it would be like, here's why we're experiencing this kind of pop culture stuff. Because it's all downstream from the last 6,000 years of human thought and philosophy and what humans have thought about each other and the world and resources and goods and what is the true good and beautiful. So that's an area where I don't say this braggadociously. I have a PhD in Philosophy and still feel under resourced in this space. And Kyle has really, really helped me. Thinking about the history of history and the history of ideas, but not at an academic level. I think it would be hugely beneficial at the lay level.
- [30:13]
A
Yeah, man, that's very Kind. I have a ton of fun with that. So that means a ton that you'd say that. Thank you. Okay. Yeah, no, I think that's really helpful. You know what, let's move to a different question. Could you help. Help give a jumping off point on how to think biblically about men and women? The many opinions about original value, dignity, pre and post fall roles, and now roles in Christ Church are overwhelming. There are so many different perspectives from devoted believers. It's very difficult to weed through. How do you best honor God in this area when you're confused by the many perspectives? Any resources? So we're thinking about a jumping off point on how to think biblically about men and women. Jen, is there a helpful jumping off point when it pertains to men and women?
- [30:52]
B
Yes, Kyle, I think there is. I actually wrote a children's book about it that'll be out later this year. I cared so much about it. Yeah. So we live in an age that's very concerned with distinctions within the church, that's very concerned with distinctions between men and women. And we need to talk about that. That is a really important message for our day and age. But we don't want to speak about what separates men from women beyond the way that the Bible does. And so I would say a jumping off point for thinking about men and women is starting with Genesis, obviously, day six of Genesis 1 of the creation account. So think about Genesis 1:26, where we're told that male and female are both made in the image of God, both charged with being fruitful, multiplying. And then you turn the page to Genesis 2 and you see a chapter that spends a lot of time pointing out what men and women share alike. And so our sameness is a really important theme that sometimes gets obscured there by well intended people who don't want to muddy the waters that are already muddied around gender confusion. But we have to hold on to sameness as a starting point. In other words, JT and I, or Kyle and I share more in common than Kyle shares with JT shares with his male dog. You. You still have a male dog or koala. Kyle share shares with a male koala. Our. Our gender is not our first designator. Our humanity is. And so. So that's a good starting point because all humankind, both male and female, are made in the image of God, charged with the same mandate, given the same status of royal ambassador, even though the Baptists gave royal ambassadors to the guys and girls in action to the women, that's okay. It's okay, we'll forgive them. So I would say start with sameness and spend a lot of time thinking about the significance of that and then celebrate the differences and how they show us that we need each other.
- [33:17]
A
That's great. Jt, Here's a question for you. This one came in directed right at you, my man. Jt I pastor a small church in San Antonio. Our church has grown from around 50 people to 110 in about a year's time. Many of those people are newer to the faith. We're in the inner city, and we're beginning a midweek gathering that's going to start pretty soon. And I was looking around and saw that there is a curriculum on LifeWay to help think through Christian story, Christian belief, and Christianity formation. I've never led anything like this, and I just want to know before I make a commitment, is there resources for me as a leader, as I think about leading this for my own church? Do you think it'd be a good thing for us?
- [33:55]
C
Yeah, man. I love this question. This is an awesome question. And I hope whoever asked this is listening. But I also know that lots of our listeners find themselves in contexts like this. I was actually asking Macy the other day, Macy, what do you think the average size of the American evangelical churches? I think most of us would think, oh, it's 400, 300, and it's like 60.
- [34:15]
B
I heard 70 yesterday.
- [34:17]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:18]
B
That's crazy.
- [34:20]
C
So you are actually in a very common situation, and most of our listeners find themselves in those situations. And actually, this is exactly, exactly why we did the Deep Discipleship program. It's also exactly why Jen and I wrote. You're a theologian. I wrote, Remember and rehearse. And Kyle wrote Form for Fellowship. I think our listeners know, I hope, you know, we're not on this show to like, you know, just shuffle our product, things we've done in front of you. This is just what we've given our life to. Like, we believe so deeply in these things that every single Christian should be deeply formed in the story of the Bible, in the basics of the faith, and basic common spiritual practices. So that's what the Deep Discipleship Program does as a leader. Specifically asking, is there anything that I could do to kind of maybe prepare? Yeah, you could. I mean, you know, if you want to familiarize yourself with the story of the Bible or read the books in advance, those three books, that would be a good head start. But I would also offer, if you're a leader out there, a lot of the leaders in the Deep Discipleship Program aren't pastors, they're women's ministry leaders. They're home group leaders, they're moms and dads who want to do this with their high school aged kids. So, like, we've had so many different iterations of the Deep Discipleship Program. If that's you, I actually think the most important thing that you can offer the group that you're going through this with isn't that you have all the answers, but that you're a fellow learner, that you're a co learner with them. It's okay for you to not show up and know all the answers. You don't have to be the Bible or theology answer man or woman. I think you showing up, having done the reading, prepared and even saying, I'm not sure about this, I'm learning about this. Because you know who also does that, Jen, Kyle and myself when we teach this stuff. I mean it. I've been teaching this for 11 years now. And every single year, almost every single class, inevitably a question comes up, up that hasn't come up before. And I often have to say, you know what? I'm not sure about that, but let's find the answer together. Can you give me your email or how can I get in touch with you? Let's grab coffee and go over that. So I just want to say the Deep Discipleship program is for those kinds of contexts in churches. It's for leaders that don't have all the answers. But if you have a learner's posture, a posture for discipleship, of wanting to grow and develop man, I think that'd be the greatest gift you could give the people that you walk through this with.
- [36:28]
B
Remember that time that guy asked you if his cat had a demon?
- [36:33]
C
Vividly, vividly. Remember what I said?
- [36:39]
B
I do.
- [36:40]
C
Yeah. That was one answer that I had the answer to.
- [36:44]
B
Yeah. You were not, you did not say.
- [36:46]
A
Well, don't find suspense. Jt, what do you, what do you say when somebody asks you whether you
- [36:50]
C
said something along the lines of like, don't all cats have demons?
- [36:52]
B
Yeah, he said, I believe. He said, well, I believe all cats have demons.
- [36:56]
A
That's great, man. That's ugly.
- [36:57]
B
I was so disappointed because I was so enjoying watching his face while the guy was giving his question?
- [37:02]
A
I love it. I love it. Okay, Jen, very similar question for you that we just threw to jt. Jen, Will there be a rapture?
- [37:14]
C
Let's go, let's go, let's go.
- [37:16]
B
Well, you have to do my revelation study to find out no, I'm just kidding. I mean, yeah, just not. I. I mean, I. Yeah, it's a question of who and when
- [37:29]
A
we will be caught up to meet the Lord.
- [37:31]
B
We will be caught up to meet the Lord.
- [37:34]
A
Yes. Great. There you go.
- [37:35]
B
Yeah.
- [37:36]
A
Okay. No, the person says, I'm really confused on this one. I'm going to give a little bit more than Jen here, just so I don't ask her to play her cards. She's right. Yes, we will all be caught up to meet the Lord. What will that be? Who will those people be? When will that occur? Where will it be? These are all great questions. I would say that the three of us are a little bit skeptical of what we might call just popular level understandings of the Rapture doctrine. And the reason we are skeptical is because popular articulations of it, like you might see left behind, are relatively recent in the history of church doctrine. And that should always be a bit of a. Hmm. You know, if it's like recently discovered, like in the last. By recent in church history, you're not talking about 10 years, you're talking about 100, 120 years. You should go. I'm not gonna rule this out immediately, but my antenna are up. And so I would really encourage. If you're interested in exploring this more, Zondervan actually has a really good study where they do these four views or five views or whatever, and they have one that's four views on the Rapture. Go check that out. You'll get a good range of Christian approaches to it that are all within the kind of big church camp that are all permissible. And you can kind of just look at the Bible and sift it yourself. So go for it. We also did cover the Rapture and the archives in the book of Revelation. So if you want to go look at that. We have a whole episode where we dealt with the Rapture. But yeah, that would be a good place to start. Jen, advice or I'll give it to. Yeah, I'll give it to Jen. This one's a gen one. Advice, Encouragement, caution for those serving in student ministry spaces. You. You. You helped. You helped oversee student ministry for a little while, if I remember correctly.
- [39:15]
B
I did indeed.
- [39:16]
A
Okay. What would you. What's a word of encouragement and a word of caution for student ministry? Ministry. The strength or the. The. The blessing and the burden?
- [39:25]
B
A word of encouragement is. First of all, if you can serve students, you can serve anybody. If you can find ways to communicate and relate to students, then you are fit for ministry in Pretty much any other area of the church. That has been my experience personally. It has been my experience with leaders. And so if you're wondering, like, is that even worth getting involved in, I would say not only is it worth it, but it's. It's good developmentally for anyone who wants to lead in the church. And it's also good for those you serve because people don't just rush to serve in student ministry. Now, a word of caution. There's a lot going on with students today, and our experience was that there were a lot of very sad and hard things that were revealed when students felt safe with their leaders. And that's what you want. You want a student ministry where the truth is coming out, even when it's hard. But you want to know when something that is given to you in confidence is above your pay grade. And you want to know who you call for help. And you want to know what is mandatory report. And so that. That's not a very spiritual answer, but it is an intensely practical one. You in Texas, if this is someone from the state of Texas, every adult is a mandatory reporter. And so you need to understand mandatory reporting. Your ministry needs to understand it, and you need to utilize it faithfully because it's just better for everyone involved. But it's also illegal not to in the state of Texas.
- [41:08]
A
Okay, thank you, Jen.
- [41:09]
B
Light and fluffy.
- [41:11]
A
Okay.
- [41:11]
B
Also, train your leaders.
- [41:13]
A
There we go. Train your leaders.
- [41:14]
B
You heard it here about these things? Yeah.
- [41:17]
A
Okay, I'm gonna mention two questions that we're not gonna answer, and then I'll tell you. Why are there biblical warrants to divorce, such as abuse? And then another question. What theological topics have you changed your stances on? Was it surprising? Here's why we're not gonna answer those questions. Because next season, I've got good news for you. Season 17, we are going to be doing another season where we approach these kind of tricky topics and thorny questions, and both of those are already on our schedule. So if you've liked this format, we've really enjoyed it as well. We're having a lot of fun with it.
- [41:46]
B
And it turns out there's more trick. There are.
- [41:49]
A
We haven't covered all of them, so we are going to cover divorce and remarriage on the next season of Knowing Faith. We're also going to do a whole episode on what we've changed our mind on and get to grill each other on that. And so tune into those. Those are great questions. They're so good. In fact, we're gonna do whole episodes about them, not just 30 second sound bites on a Q and A episode. So thank you. Now I wanna welcome everybody to what I'm gonna call Kyle's critical feedback corner. This is a brand new segment. We've never done it in the history of knowing faith and I wanna welcome all of you to it. Maybe engineer Bradley can put on some music and make it sound like we've stepped into something really cool and fun. I got this comment. We got this as a Q and A. And then. And I just want. I thought it was. I thought it was great. I want to talk through it just for a moment. And this is mostly me talking here. We got this as a Q and A submission. Your most recent podcast left me baffled. Your discussion on the head covering passage in First Corinthians 11 was not helpful. I'm a semi regular listener and a big fan of Jen Wilkins serious and media approach to Bible study have been deeply impacted by many of her book studies. I get that it was the final topic of a long day of recording, but I was disappointed by the discussion. It feels like you left out a ton of stuff. I was born into an Anabaptist family that practiced head coverings for women, not just in church, but every day in an attempt to honor the creation order and because of praying and prophesying. And so she goes on to just say, I would really love for you guys to reconsider doing it. Reconsider, like doing another cut of an episode talking about head coverings and you know what? Fair play. I read this, I went back and listened to the episode because I thought, huh, I don't know that I really remembered. You know, we've been doing this for years. And so I went back and listened to it and you know what, I think she's right. I just, I think we could have given a more substantive discussion. Theology happens best in community. She didn't troll us online.
- [43:33]
B
Thank you, by the way.
- [43:34]
A
Yeah, she didn't like may your tribe increase. She didn't tag a bunch of mocking comments on social media or something. She, she had an opportunity. She had an opportunity to submit a question. She submitted an honest opinion. I went back and took a look at it and I think she's exactly right. So here's what we're do. I'm not going to try to answer it quickly on this episode. We're going to do a full episode. Coming back to the topic of head coverings, we're also going to talk a little bit about modesty in that episode and we're going to bring in somebody who has just written a book with B and H that covers these topics together, and we're going to give it a fully rounded treatment. We'll cut through the banter noise real quickly, and we'll get into it and we'll dive deep on it. So I really appreciated this. This has been Kyle's critical fe. Feedback corner. Brad can play some rollout music. And now we're out of college. Critical feedback corner. Thank you for that.
- [44:20]
B
Okay, let's call it kfc. Kyle's feedback corner.
- [44:24]
A
Oh, that is. That's great. We should maybe. Maybe somebody out there can make a meme of me as Colonel Sanders, which would be an upgrade.
- [44:30]
B
Koala with a Colonel Sanders. Yeah.
- [44:33]
A
Okay.
- [44:34]
C
Chickens with koala heads.
- [44:35]
A
Jc, this one's for you. For sure. Justify a law, posting publicly the Ten Commandments, and don't refer to the constitution of the founders.
- [44:43]
C
Justify a law?
- [44:45]
A
Yeah, publicly posting the Ten Commandments and not refer to the Constitution or founders.
- [44:50]
B
Oh. Oh.
- [44:53]
C
I want to make sure I understand.
- [44:55]
B
Oh, I know what he's suggesting.
- [44:57]
A
What?
- [44:58]
C
I don't think you know what I'm gonna say. I don't know what I'm saying.
- [45:00]
B
I think I do. We'll see if I'm right. I'll tell you. I'll be honest.
- [45:05]
C
Why would I need a civil or federal law to do that?
- [45:08]
A
That's not what I thought you were going to say.
- [45:09]
C
But what did you think I was going to say?
- [45:12]
A
God's law is perfect and supersedes any laws of man.
- [45:15]
C
Well, that's what I was getting to.
- [45:16]
A
That's what I was getting.
- [45:17]
C
You're waiting for the punchline again. Kyle and I share an opinion on this, by the way. I don't know why. You don't have to answer this question, my man.
- [45:27]
B
Everyone knows I just fell on the sword in two against one.
- [45:30]
A
I just fell on the sword in kfc. Okay? I fell on the sword on kfc. So you're falling on the Ten Commandments.
- [45:35]
C
You and I are not, like, crusading, going to local DMVs and like, saying, you know, why do you guys not have the Ten Commandments up? We're just saying I don't need the DMV to tell me whether it's okay or not, right? If God's law is perfect, and if we are to meditate on it day and night, and if it is true, good and beautiful in every single jot and tittle of the law, why would we not want to see that everywhere? And if the purposes of the law. Law that all three of us agree with, that it shapes, informs us it's a reflection of God's character that we can learn how to live in God's world and that it also shows us that we're in need of grace and mercy because we fall short of the law. Why would I not want every single human to orient their hearts and their minds to the perfect law of God?
- [46:18]
A
Nailed it. Through legislation, I take it. Through legislation or love, sister.
- [46:23]
C
Yes. Yeah, we don't live under the law. We live under the spirit. Jen, newsflash.
- [46:29]
B
All right.
- [46:29]
A
I can't let Jen have any more comments or this episode will go 15 more minutes longer.
- [46:33]
B
Just two episodes.
- [46:34]
A
Just know Jen does not agree with JV and I on this issue and
- [46:38]
C
she wants Just Know Jen, we have zero words to live by.
- [46:41]
B
I do not love God's law, so I don't want it posted anywhere. Let's just make sure.
- [46:46]
A
Noted God's Law hater, Jen Wilkins.
- [46:48]
B
Yes.
- [46:50]
A
Hey, you know what? These have been wonderful questions. That is all we have time for in this episode. We could keep going and keep going and keep going. I really appreciate the level of questions every season. I'm encouraged that we're maturing in the kind of questions that we get. It's an indication that our audience is doing the work. They're not just consuming, they're contributing and collaborating. One of the things that we're often asked is, oh, man, why do y' all take off for the summer? But now we hardly ever take off for the summer.
- [47:14]
B
Why don't we do.
- [47:15]
A
Yeah, that's true. So you don't have to fear because there are new episodes of Knowing Faith releasing every week this summer with something incredible guest. Shane Pruitt's going to be on talking about evangelism with Gen Z. Seth Trout's going to be on talking about masculinity. Tasha Calvert's going to be on. We've got some wonderful guests coming up this summer on episodes of Knowing Faith for you. But if you are like, you know what? I really asked the question and I want more, then go over to trainingthechurch.com support. We have a really wonderful Patreon community. They ask wonderful questions. We record a whole separate, dedicated Q and A episode for them as a way of just thanking them for their support. We also do special live episodes and we just recently had one on Is gun Control Biblical or not? And so you know what? We're just, we're hitting the hard topics over there. So if you want more, go over to trainthechurch.com support if you're looking to try to move from listening to a podcast and what's a practical next step? Because I get this question a lot, particularly when we do live recordings or live events. I want to do what you guys are doing and I know it can feel like it's really far away way. Let me give you a practical step. Do a summer book club. Do a summer book club and then talk about it together. Don't just say I like what Jen said on this page. I like what JT said. Have a thought level discussion, write notes, go and look at the passages that are referenced there. So maybe you're going to do something in the back half of July when Dust to Dust, Jen's new book on aging comes out and you're going to do a book club on that and you're going to get together and meet with people and have a thought level discussion about what it means to age with grace and maturity and to embrace what God's word says about aging. Do that. Maybe you're gonna grab JT's remember and rehearse and look at Genesis to Revelation and build a whole Bible theology and start thinking through not just the Bible as bits and pieces, but as one cohesive story. Or maybe you're gonna pick up Home with God and consider how the doctrine of union with Christ shapes the ordinary Christian life. All those books are built for you to read them and then go discuss them with other people. I know that it's true that Remember and Rehearse has discussion questions. I know that Home with God does Does Jen Does Dust the Dust have reflection questions?
- [49:28]
B
Never would I ever write a book that does not have discussion questions at the end of the chapter.
- [49:34]
A
Jen, J.T. and I, we want you to do this and it doesn't have to be our book. Go grab another book. But get together, study the Bible with other people, read a good book together and talk about it with one another. Move from being a consumer to a contributor and a collaborator. We are really grateful that you listen to Knowing Faith. Honestly. We take it as as a real joy and a sober privilege. Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed the discussion. Grace and Peace.