Are Mormons Christians?

Summary

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Knowing Faith – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Are Mormons Christians?
Hosts: Kyle Worley, JT English, Jen Wilkin
Release Date: July 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Knowing Faith tackles the timely and important question: Are Mormons Christians? Prompted by recent headlines about the Pentagon’s classification of religious groups, the hosts examine the theological and historical distinctions between historic Christianity and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS, or Mormonism). The discussion explores core doctrines, terminology overlap, cultural considerations, and practical implications for Christian engagement with Mormon friends and neighbors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why This Conversation Now?

• Prompt: The Pentagon’s recent omission of Mormonism from its list of “Christian religions” caused public outcry, notably from Utah’s Mormon senators.
• Kyle Worley (05:35): Outlines the incident’s background, emphasizing the Defense Department's intent to guide chaplains and the cultural resonance of the Mormon claim to Christianity.

2. Personal Connections and the Question’s Importance

• JT’s Story (07:06):
  • Grew up not as a Christian but had many Mormon friends.
  • Became a Christian and had to grapple with whether he and his close Mormon friends shared the same faith:
    “Are my best friends Christians or not? They’re Mormons serving on the mission field. I just became a Christian. Are we the same thing, or are we not the same thing?” (08:10)
  • Highlights that this is a real-world, relationally-loaded question for many, not just an abstract theological one.

3. Mormonism and the Doctrine of God

• Core Divergences (10:03):
  • Mormons believe God the Father is an exalted person—not eternally divine in the orthodox sense.
  • Each person of the “Godhead” is viewed as a distinct, separate deity.
  • These represent fundamental differences from Christian Trinitarian doctrine.
• JT English (12:18):
  • Notes early Mormonism’s open stance that it was a restoration, not a reformation, of Christianity—Joseph Smith believed the established church was apostate:
    “Joseph Smith in no way saw himself as a reformer…he needed to start something new, not as a reformation of, but as a true restoration of what was lost in New Testament Christianity.” (12:50)

4. Historical Shift in Mormon Self-Understanding

• PR and Literacy Factors (13:31):
  • PR necessity: Mormonism gradually shifted to market itself as a Christian denomination for broader social acceptance.
  • Literacy and Bible access: As general knowledge of the Bible increased, the contrasts became harder to obscure, pushing Mormons to link their roots back to Christianity despite key differences.

5. Cultural and Lifestyle Overlap

• Jen Wilkin (10:06):
  • Notes many Christians struggle to differentiate from Mormons because of shared morality and visible “niceness”:
    “I think part of the reason why Christians have a hard time even differentiating themselves from Mormons is because we honestly…view the Christian faith primarily as an ethical system.” (10:12)
• Discussion of Mormon humanitarianism and social engagement (18:50, 22:16).
• Mormons’ “prepping” and communal responsibility are rooted in both theology and LDS history (19:53, 20:46).

6. Discipleship Practices and Catechesis

• Mormon youth receive significant doctrinal formation, often outpacing their Christian peers (23:37, 25:12).
• JT English (25:10):
  • References a professor:
    “Heretical cults, ancient Christian heresies—they have all the lyrics of Christianity but none of the Christian melody. And that’s what I think is true for Mormonism.” (25:12)

7. Critical Doctrinal Differences

• Key Divergences Highlighted (28:13):
  • Doctrine of God: Not Trinitarian; polytheistic elements.
  • Revelation: Not a closed canon; ongoing revelation (Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, Pearl of Great Price).
  • Anthropology: Humans can become divine (“become gods”).
  • Salvation: Not by grace alone but requires continued effort to maintain.
  • Scripture: Additional texts outside of the Bible, compromising its sole authority.
• Jen Wilkin (29:52):
  • Personal note on evangelism:
    “You can’t offer me something better than what I already have [in Christ]… their notion of salvation is that it has to be maintained…”

8. Shared Language, Different Meanings

• Warning: Mormons use Christian terms (Jesus, grace, salvation), but the definitions differ substantially (26:00, 25:03).
• Encouragement: Christians should be prepared for doctrinal dialogue. Mormon friends will bring it up, so readiness is key (37:50).

9. Societal Collaboration vs. Theological Boundaries

• Christians, Mormons, Muslims, and Jews can sometimes ally on social and natural law issues (gender, family) due to overlap in ethical frameworks, yet still have fundamental doctrinal differences (32:02-34:00).
• The best explanation for overlap is the Christian concept of the image of God and natural law—shared morality does not erase spiritual differences (34:01).

10. On Evangelizing Mormons

• Clear Call (37:31):
  “This means you should share the gospel with your Mormon neighbors, right? In word and deed. They are lost people who are in need of the hope of Christ… you should not be thinking, my Mormon neighbor doesn’t need the gospel.” — Kyle Worley
• Jen Wilkin (37:50):
  • Conversation will arise thanks to Mormon outreach; Christians should be ready with clarity and love.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• JT English (08:45):
  “What makes a Christian a Christian? What do we believe and confess about the nature and character of God? And that is an area that Christians and Mormons have some very serious divergence.”
• Kyle Worley (11:47):
  “When you say it out loud, you realize pretty quickly—well, that’s a very different view of God.”
• Jen Wilkin (16:55):
  “What I hate is when people are ugly about this. Just say what’s true… Joseph Smith didn’t think they were Christians.”
• JT English (25:12):
  “They have all the lyrics of Christianity but none of the Christian melody.”
• Jen Wilkin (30:14):
  “Would you rather live next to a Mormon than a Satanist? Yeah… Make sure [children] understand it’s not for earning [salvation], but it’s the instruction manual for how to be human.”
• Kyle Worley (36:53):
  “Mormonism from its inception was not claiming to be a faithful branch of Christianity as we know it. They were claiming to be something different—a restoration…”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 05:35 — Pentagon/chaplain background and why Mormonism was excluded from the “Christian” list
• 07:06 — JT’s personal story: friendships, conversion, and wrestling with Mormon distinctiveness
• 10:03 — Fundamental differences in doctrine of God explained
• 12:18 — Joseph Smith’s explicit break with creedal Christianity
• 13:31 — Why Mormonism’s self-understanding shifted over time
• 18:50 — Civic engagement, humanitarian efforts, and the “nice neighbor” effect
• 23:37 — Discipleship and catechesis: Mormon vs. Christian youth
• 25:03 — Shared terms, different meanings: why vocabulary can be misleading
• 28:13 — Enumerating key areas of doctrinal divergence (God, revelation, salvation, etc.)
• 34:01 — The “image of God” and natural law as explanation for ethical overlap
• 37:31 — The evangelistic imperative: why Mormons need the gospel

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Final Takeaways

• Mormons are not Christians theologically—by their own founding claims and by historic Christian orthodoxy across doctrine of God, revelation, salvation, and scripture.
• Cultural/ethical similarities can obscure real differences; “niceness” and family values do not equate to orthodox Christianity.
• Shared terms don’t mean shared gospel—definitions matter.
• Engage with truth and charity: Be ready, informed, and loving in personal interactions with Mormon friends and neighbors—Christians need both doctrinal clarity and relational grace.
• Evangelism is needed: Love for Mormon neighbors means offering them the true gospel.

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For further resources, the hosts recommend thoughtful, non-polemical sources: KARM.org and works by Hank Hanegraaff.

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Transcript

[Sponsor/Host]

This episode of Knowing Faith is brought to you by Crossway, publisher of the ESV Study Bible. Designed to help you understand the Bible in a deeper way, the ESV Study Bible features a wide array of study tools, including extensive study notes, 200 full color maps, 40 full color illustrations, charts, timelines, articles and introductions, making it a valuable resource for serious readers, students and teachers of God's Word. Listen, this is me speaking now, not just the ad read. And I have to tell you, the ESV Study Bible was my first study Bible and it remains my favorite study Bible. If you're looking for a study Bible, I would start with the ESV Study Bible. You can pick up a copy of the ESV Study Bible wherever Bibles are sold or visit Crossway.org ESVStudyBible to learn how to get 30% off.

[Kyle Worley]

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[Sponsor/Host]

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[Kyle Worley]

This is Kyle Worley and I'm joined by my co host Jen Wilkin and J.T. english. It's summertime. Life, life in the summer. You know, we're getting a mercifully like temperate summer here in Texas.

[Jen Wilkin]

So far. So far.

[Kyle Worley]

And JT, you guys, so what is it?

[J.T. English]

But what does that mean? What? Like, what does it mean? Temperate 100, 400.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah. 85.

[J.T. English]

92.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, we've had a lot of rain. It's been.

[Kyle Worley]

You guys have had snow on the ground, right? J.T.

[J.T. English]

it's been, it's been a really strange year here. I think it's only three or four times all winter. We have the. In terms of. I think it's 1925. I could be getting that number wrong. The lowest amount of snowfall and snowpack in the history of the state of Colorado since I started measuring. So it's like really, really dry. It's always dry here, but it's really dry. Like they've got all kinds of watering restrictions for us. Golf courses are all brown. So it's not all good in Colorado, but it's better than Texas.

[Jen Wilkin]

I Love that. His measure of whether it's good or not is the color of the golf course.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, yeah.

[J.T. English]

I've got.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. W. The slopes and the golf course.

[Kyle Worley]

That's all we do here, living that Colorado life. Well, hey, listen, we. We're, we're. We're in the summer, but we're still asking the big questions and hitting the tricky topics. And if you want to move from being a consumer of these conversations and to a contributor and a collaborator, this fall presents a really great opportunity for your small group, your Sunday school class, your midweek class. Whether you're a ministry leader or you're just a small group leader, and you're looking at what you might do over the course of the next year, we think that you dive deep. Maybe that's jumping into a Bible study. But for us, you've been hearing us just hit the gong for a year and change now that we think you should jump into deep discipleship. And we've made that available through the deep Discipleship program. If you go to lifeway.com deep discipleship, then you can jump in to the deep end with some other people and do theology and community, just like we do on every episode of Knowing Faith. And here's why it's crucial. It's crucial because if you don't learn doctrine, then you might be like one of 18 million people who believe they're Christians and yet deny something absolutely central about being a Christian. It turns out doctrine really matters because there are roughly 18 million people.

[J.T. English]

Are you talking about Presbyterians?

[Kyle Worley]

No, that's. I think.

[Jen Wilkin]

I think there's 350,000.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah. Don't want to dig on the Presbyterians too hard. What they lack in quantity, they make up for inequality. Yeah, that's.

[J.T. English]

That's no doubt.

[Kyle Worley]

No, but listen. No, we're asking the question today. Are Mormons Christians? And partly this was prompted. This was an unscheduled episode, which is rare for us. We really try to kind of build evergreen episodes that aren't flavor of the moment conversations. But this one just intersected just too directly with what we do here to avoid it.

[Jen Wilkin]

Sometimes clickbait whirly just can't control it.

[Kyle Worley]

Well, you know, okay, hey, the person.

[Jen Wilkin]

Self control.

[Kyle Worley]

Got to give credit where credit's due on this. I wish it would have been me, but JT's the one who said he sent it as a question. Guys, do you think we should do something on Mormons and Christianity with what's happening in the news cycle? That was it. So we don't have a You know, jump, scare. Jt Clickbait. Kyle.

[J.T. English]

You know, just relevant conversation. JT is what, Just jam?

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah.

[J.T. English]

Helpful to people?

[Kyle Worley]

Well, no. Okay. So recently, like, by the time this comes out, it'll be like a month forgotten. A month. A month ago, the kind of talk online, there was a little bit of a stir that was caused because the Pentagon and the Defense Department revised their official list of Christian religions. The reason they were doing this is because they have to give direction to chaplaincies. So, like, chaplains are serving in our nation's armed forces, and we want to thank God for faithful chaplains. I've gotten to. I got some. To spend some time early in the summer with some chaplains doing incredible work across our nation's military. And we're tremendously grateful. If you know a chaplain, it's a really hard job, please commend them. It's a labor of love. And if you are a chaplain listening to this and we can ever serve you, I would really love to know that. Please message me on Instagram if there's

[Sponsor/Host]

a way that we could help with you in particular.

[Kyle Worley]

But the Pentagon and the Defense Department was classifying like they were reorganizing their list of religions because they have a responsibility to resource their chaplains effectively. That's what was driving this. But what was picked up on was Utah. U.S. senators Mike Lee and John Curtis, who are both Republicans and Mormons, noticed that the Pentagon excluded Mormonism from their list of Christian religions. And they were very upset about this. And many Mormons were very upset about this in. In part because there are many Mormons who serve in our nation's armed forces. They, they. They are a group that disproportionately volunteers for active military service. And they are. They have a high view of citizenship and the responsibilities of citizenship. And so there was a little bit of an outcry just by virtue of the fact that Mormons really do take a lot of pride in being good citizens and being involved civically in a really meaning way. That being said, the senators were. Were.

[Sponsor/Host]

Were very.

[Kyle Worley]

Were very upset because Mormons were excluded from the list of Christian religions that the Defense Department and Pentagon was providing. Okay, so, jt, when you heard this and saw this online, what was your. What was your first reaction when you saw the kerfuffle of like, well, hold on a second. Mormons haven't been included in this list of Christian religions. Tell me what you were thinking. Why did you text me?

[J.T. English]

Well, I honestly wonder. I mean, there's probably two instincts here, and I wonder if my first instinct isn't the one, I don't know if I've ever shared this with you. Growing up here in Jefferson County, Colorado, I wasn't a Christian. I was kind of a post Christian secular kid just wanting to get a job and make money and start a family or whatever. And then I come to know the Lord. But, but the two years previous to me becoming a Christian, I was in high school, I was on a basketball team and out of the five of us that were, you know, I think seniors that year, three of them were Mormons and were like some of my dearest friends, some of the best guys that ever been around, like just dear, dear, dear friends. And so when I became a Christian, a couple of these guys were serving on their Mormon missions. They were out of the country. And I didn't get the way that I don't know how missions work now, but I didn't have the chance to speak with them very often. But when I did, I was telling them I became a Christian. And that started a lot of apologetic conversations for some of my dearest friends. And I was realizing, okay, I have to have some really serious kind of like you just opened the, the podcast with some really serious doctrine clarity in my own life about, are my best friends Christians or not? They're Mormons serving on the mission field. I just became a Christian. Are we the same thing or are we not the same thing? And so I remember back when I, I mean remember like the dial up aol like messenger, one of my, one of my best friends was serving his Mormon mission in Toronto. I'd been a Christian for six months. I was still up in, at csu, have like my dial up Internet. And we would go back and forth on AOL messenger having apologetic conversations because in one sense he was thankful that I'd made a profession of faith in Christ. But it was like I wasn't quite there yet. Like I needed a few more steps and he was trying to disciple me towards Mormonism. And then I was trying to say I was like getting on different apologetic websites telling him why Mormonism wasn't Christianity. And so this is since the earliest days of me being a Christian, been a serious question for me because of personal relationships. But then Kyle, the instinct I think you're probably talking about is a lot of my kind of professional work since I've become a theologian and a pastor and a professor, has been around a kind of very specific creed, the Nicene Creed and the confession of Trinitarianism, which I want to confess was One of the reasons I wanted to spend a lot of time in that issue is because the doctrine of God really is one of the most, like the highest distinguishing features of what makes a Christian a Christian. What do we believe and confess about the nature and character of God? And that is an area that Christians and Mormons have some very serious divergence.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, I'd say so. I'd say so. So, you know, if you think about like, the fundamentals of Christian orthodoxy on the doctrine of God, just so, just so our audience knows. Because I find that even now most Christians, and again, this is often because morm. Are very regularly exemplary moral citizens.

[Jen Wilkin]

I was, yeah, I was just about to bring that up.

[Kyle Worley]

It's very.

[Jen Wilkin]

So I think they're so nice.

[Kyle Worley]

They are. And I think part of the reason why Christians have a hard time even differentiating themselves from Mormons is because we, we honestly, we front load Christian morality and we back in Christian theology, like, we, we, we, we kind of see like, like we have, we view the Christian faith primary. I honest of the confusion here is that many evangelicals view the Christian faith as primarily an ethical system. And when they look at Mormons, they see like a very close relation ethically. And so for them, that ethical overlap gives them the sense that there is a deeper kind of like, substantive agreement underneath it or that that ethical overlap is all that is required for Christianity. So oftentimes, I think some of the confusion here, even among Christians, is that because of the ethical overlap and because of the name Jesus, these people have to be, they got to be closer to us than the alternative. But fundamentally, Mormons have a couple of views that are crucial to their doctrine of God that when I say them to you, you'll immediately know are different. So, like, just two basic things. Mormons believe God the Father is an exalted person, so they don't, they don't like, believe that he is like an eternal divine being, and they believe that each person the God has is a distinct, separate God. So that's. Those are two pretty big things about God.

[Jen Wilkin]

Were you waiting for us to go, whoa, we didn't fill in the space there. We just both stared at you.

[Kyle Worley]

I, I mean, I, I just think when you say it out loud, you realize pretty quickly, well, that's a very different view of God. And truthfully, this is not a question of like, God is mysterious and incomprehensible, which we'll get to in season 17 is a big question. Like, is God too mysterious to comprehend? Spoiler. No, no, you can comprehend.

[Jen Wilkin]

Kyle Come on, clickbait, stay with me.

[Kyle Worley]

But, but the truth of the matter is that some people go, well, like, gosh, you know, what, put God in a box, right? But God has told us who he is and this is not it.

[J.T. English]

Yeah, yeah, and I, but I also think I agree with you, Kyle, but this is something that Mormonism from the beginning also acknowledged. I mean, I think one of the interesting parts here is like Joseph Smith, the kind of the founder of Mormonism, without going into all of the background and the history of Mormonism, living in upstate New York, kind of has this in what he views like the divine revelation, tablets from heaven kind of descend for this ongoing and extra revelation. But at the pinnacle of it, like, the reason he believed he was instructed by God to start Mormonism is because Christianity had grown apostate in the views that you just highlighted around the Nicene Creed and a biblical confession of the doctrine of God. So the earliest Mormons themselves believed they weren't Christians is something to highlight here. Since then, that's become kind of taboo for Mormons to say. But Joseph Smith in no way saw himself as a reformer. He wasn't trying to reform. He was told, he explicitly says he was told by God to join none of the existing denominations because their creeds, their affirmations, their confessions were an abomination to God. And he needed to start something new, not as a reformation of, but as a true restoration of what was lost in New Testament Christianity. So Mormons themselves from the beginning have said, we are not Christians. We're something other than because Christians are now apostate.

[Jen Wilkin]

So what changed?

[J.T. English]

If I'm. You want to hear the skeptical side, like the cynical side of me, it's pr. I'm serious. I mean, like you think about the, the PR challenges that Mormonism has faced because of their views through the 1800s and 1900s, like it no longer can exist by itself. It needs to kind of have an appendage itself to the long standing kind of creedal orthodoxy of Christianity. And rather than seeing themselves as a restoration project, they're now trying to, and they've said this publicly, they now need to see themselves as a denominational project, which, in other words, is saying Joseph Smith got it wrong.

[Kyle Worley]

I think that's a huge part of it. The other part of it, I think, is literacy, literacy and accessibility of the Bible when.

[J.T. English]

When I'm saying that. So, I mean, I agree with you. I don't. I think it's the leaders of Mormonism that see it as a PR issue. I think it's lay people that have a literacy issue.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah. And like the, like when Joseph Smith comes, keep in mind Joseph Smith, this is like, gosh, I'm trying to think of the precise date. I had it in my notes.

[J.T. English]

It's like 1830, I think.

[Kyle Worley]

Okay, so we're. We're talking about the early 19th century. Okay, so you do have Bibles in English, but the ACT literacy access and access to the Bible is still not as high as it would be in the century ahead. Right. And so there is this. Over the last 200 years, there is this growing literacy among Christians. And so they have to connect what Joseph Smith is doing with or they have to connect Mormonism with the. The root, the. The legacy of Christianity. Because now people can compare what does the Bible actually say with what Joseph Smith has said. And so that comparison creates a dissonance almost immediately. Like when you read the Book of Mormon and when you read the writings of Joseph Smith, you find very quickly that there is a level of dissonance between how Joseph Smith is representing the Christian God and how the Christian God himself has testified to himself in his work. And so the only way you can do that is to say, yeah, this is the healthy or the restoration of a New Testament expression that was forgotten and was kind of cemented over. So contemporary Mormonism communicates itself as a restoration movement, not a reform movement. Like JT was saying. They've never been a reform movement. They've been a. The church took the authentic, sincere, living and alive New Testament faith and immediately begin to pollute it through the institutions and interpretations of man. Joseph Smith came around as a prophet sent by God who was able to bring a restoration of true New Testament Christianity. So they're kind of their mark. Not their marketing here, but their, Their. Their communication angle is that we are going back to what the. What it was. The. The sincerity.

[J.T. English]

First century, in the second century, not third century. And that's what I mean by is, is when I say Mormons are not Christians, I'm agreeing with Joseph Smith.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to put it. You know who is really good on this? What's his name? The Bible answer man. I know he's now, like, he's gone orthodox, which is fine. But do you remember him?

[J.T. English]

Hank Hannegra?

[Kyle Worley]

Yes.

[Jen Wilkin]

So, like, if people want to read more on this, go out to. I think they still have the website.

[J.T. English]

Was it karma? I used to go to a website called Karm all the time.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, that's it. That's it. And they have a lot of really thoughtful writing on this. That's not hate, you know, it's not hateful. Like what this is. What I hate is when. What I hate. What I hate is when people are ugly about this. It's like, just say what's true. Kind of like you just did, jt, it's like Joseph Smith didn't think they were Christians because in a battle with nice people, you know, responding in a non nice way is not really gonna move the ball forward. And I tell you what, the Mormons are everywhere on pink social media. I think you guys know this.

[Kyle Worley]

Oh yeah, the mom flew the momstagram.

[Jen Wilkin]

And talk about an entrepreneurial spirit. I mean, these women have built Mormon empires out there. And so much of the trad wife movement appeal is coming through a woman who's a Mormon. And it's just fascinating to see how wholesome living has such an appeal, such a stickiness to it in a day like ours. And I actually think there is something to pay attention to for believers like Mormons give a convincing representation of salt and light in a way that the church could probably pay closer attention to. It feels to me like there's always an angle of evangelism on their part. Like it's always a recruitment tool. And I think that could be the key difference between a Christian expression of it and the Mormon expression of it is we're just out here being kind and serving you because that's what Jesus did. And we'd love for you to be a follower of Jesus, but we're going to care for the poor, whether the poor convert and so on and so forth. And I'm not saying that Mormons don't do any work like that. Actually don't know, do they do mission work? Do they. Do they do those kinds of things?

[Kyle Worley]

Do you guys know Mormons have a humanitarian arm like every major, like, civic group out there, but their primary strategy is outreach oriented. And I mean, you know that. And that's how a lot of people encounter Mormons, right? They encounter Mormons because somebody knocks on their door. You know, usually two young men knock on their door who rode up on bikes.

[Jen Wilkin]

No, it can be ladies too. We had two women who walked around our neighborhood. Now, Kyle, I don't want to step on your toes here because I know that you're, you're a low level prepper, but I had a, I had a friend.

[J.T. English]

Low level.

[Jen Wilkin]

I had a friend. I'm being consulted. I had a friend who met. Well, maybe this Will be a good tip off for you, something you can use. I had a friend who met her second husband at a canning event. So she was, she was a prepper and so she liked to get her canning done. And so they had gone to a canning facility and I said I did not know that you could find canning facilities. And she said, oh yeah, the Mormons have them. They're everywhere. Did you know this?

[Kyle Worley]

A hundred percent.

[Jen Wilkin]

And when they are not using them, they lease out space to people who also want to can. So do you know anything about the theology that feeds the prepper mentality of Mormons?

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, for sure. The Mormons believe it's going to get real bad at the end.

[Jen Wilkin]

Unlike Kyle Worley.

[Kyle Worley]

I don't believe it's going to get

[Sponsor/Host]

real bad at the end.

[Kyle Worley]

I'm just prepared for if it does whatever. But no, they have a. They're a lot more structured in their preparation and they're more structured in their preparation because. Well, keep in mind the history of Mormonism is a group. I don't want to, I don't want to castigate, I don't want to castigate unnecessarily Mormons. The reason that Utah is a Mormon state is because the Mormons went there to start a utopia.

[Jen Wilkin]

Right.

[Kyle Worley]

And the American government, you know, did not love the idea of having a heavily armed, non submissive military power which

[Jen Wilkin]

is right up your alley in the

[Kyle Worley]

middle of, in the middle of the country. So we're talking about Texas Mormons. Mormons have a, I would say contemporary Mormonism has a participatory approach to civic life in America, but their engine is withdrawal and defense. And their eschatology is we will be the righteous ones, will be the ones left standing and they have a responsibility to ensure that reality. So yeah, I mean there it's, it is their, their preparation is theologically driven. It's not just historically driven.

[Jen Wilkin]

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[J.T. English]

Going back to your point, Jen, about them being everywhere, you know, I opened our conversation around High School. J.T. a lot of my buddies were Mormons. I become a Christian and had to kind of weed through all that. That meant Doctrinally, but since then, you know, kind of talking about the humanitarian efforts, the home that I had in Flower Mound, Highland Village, actually, this is. I remember Macy was pregnant with our son Thomas, and we hadn't gotten to our neighbors yet. I just moved to Texas to take the role of our church, and we're out there. I had 94 bags of mulch that I needed to lay down in my yard. And I'm like, macy, pick up another bag. Help me mulching. And out of nowhere, our neighbors, who we hadn't met yet, two adults around, a little older than us maybe, they're probably, you know, in their mid-40s or so, and their teenage kids all come out and for an entire day helped mulch our yard. And so, like, I think to the humanitarian efforts, I think there is an evangelistic bent. But I loved having Mormon neighbors. They loved us. They were kind.

[Jen Wilkin]

That's what I was gonna say. We had. They make great neighbors. There was a sort of a critical mass of them when we lived in Flower Mound, and they were. They were good. You know, I think I've mentioned this before, but they don't do extracurricular activities on the whole because they devote so much time to seminary when they're in school.

[J.T. English]

That's right.

[Jen Wilkin]

And so I think, again, there. There's something we could. We could pay attention to. As Christians. They are invested in discipling people, their people, into their way of thinking in a way that the church could take note of. But they all. That meant that a lot of Mormons ended up in choir with the Wilkin kids. And you know what? I'd rather have my kids hanging around kids who are not big risk takers and generally think of others. And that's not to say that I wanted. Actually, my kids had such good friends. Have I told you this story that they were invited to go to seminary on a. On a Wednesday morning, and they went and they came back and they were like, guess who won the Scripture contest? And it was so funny because I think generally the Mormons think and can expect that they are better taught than. Than Christian children are in the community. So it's just interesting and it was a good counterpoint for us for conversations because the kids had so much exposure to Mormonism about what it was and what it wasn't. And because the thing is, this is something we haven't talked about yet on. On this episode, is that the same words are used, but they mean different things.

[J.T. English]

This is the issue. This is.

[Jen Wilkin]

This is actually grace, salvation.

[J.T. English]

But all of that, that's where, I mean, I think I want to come back to that, Jen, because I think that's the whole point of the whole thing.

[Kyle Worley]

Go ahead and jump into it right now.

[J.T. English]

Well, I wanted to just say one last thing kind of time back to what she said right before. That is another thing that I now pastor back home. We have an enormous Mormon population in our community. And a lot of the things. So like my buddies who were high school friends of mine who did what Jen just talked about, they were on all the basketball teams with us, all the baseball teams with us, but they'd never played on Sundays. And we would, we would just be demolishing teams on Thursday, Friday, Saturday tournaments, and then we would lose. All of our Mormons get crushed on Sunday. So we never won a championship. And we always used to get so mad at those guys because it's like, man, why do you not care more about this? But their parents wouldn't let them play and they're in church and they would do church from, you know, eight, eight o' clock at night, eight in the morning, eight at night on Sundays. And the thing is, is a lot of my buddies, again, I wasn't a Christian at the time. I had several buddies on those teams who were Christians. Do you know what? They're not anymore. They're not Christians because their parents didn't, didn't do a great job of discipling them, shaping, informing them. What was more important was sports. What was more important is extracurricular activities. You know who's still Mormons, those Mormons who were discipled that this matters more. So I think there's a parallel here for Christian parents to learn. I'm not saying don't do any sports stuff. I'm not, I'm not the anti sports guy. But what I'm saying is, is the way that you're shaping the role, yeah, that is your role. But the way that you're shaping, informing your kids now is going to have generational impacts. My Christian buddies are on the travel team no longer Christians. My Mormon buddies that were on the travel team are still Mormons. And so I think there's something for us to be said there for Christian families of what are we discipling our kids in. But going back to Jen's point, let's talk about doctrine. That's what we do here. For knowing faith is, is one of my, one of my professors at Dallas Seminary talked about heretical cults, ancient Christian heresies. They have all the lyrics of Christianity but none of the Christian Melody. And that's what I think is true for Mormonism. All of the lyrics of Christianity, but none of the Christian melody. In other words, they're saying the same things. Jesus Christ, Grace, Salvation Church, Bible. And so you go to their seminary. I've attended, I attended a Mormon church during those years where I was trying to figure all this out. And there's so much of it that kind of feels the same, but it doesn't have any of the same Christian meaning. The definitions of all of those words change for Mormons. And so I would encourage you if you undoubtedly, if you're a listener to this podcast, even if you don't know it, you have Mormons that are ancillary to you. But I would imagine lots of you have Mormons that are really close to you. Either they're neighbors or they go to your kids school or they're on sports teams. Is the major areas of divergence which I would highlight for you to have conversations about are the doctrine of God. They do not believe in one God who exists in three distinct persons. The area of, of revelation. They believe in ongoing revelation. Pearl of great price, the Book of Mormon and not a closed canon. At the, at the end of the Book of Revelation, Kyle's already highlighted anthropology, what it means to be a human kind of our eternal existence and even our kind of a God like divine existence moving forward. What other ones guys, would you highlight

[Jen Wilkin]

that we become gods, right?

[J.T. English]

Like we become like divine beings in an afterlife. In the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes.

[J.T. English]

Yeah.

[Kyle Worley]

And the doctrine of scripture, I mean the Mormonism heavily compromises authority of God's word with ongoing.

[Jen Wilkin]

I still remember talking to two missionaries at the front door one time and I, you know, we kind of went through some of the doctrine of salvation and I just was like, you, you can't offer me something better than what I already have. Like, this is what I already have. And they, they don't really have an answer. I don't mean like it was a dunk moment. I mean it was kind of like what do you say to unconditional grace being given? You know, because their, their, their, their notion of salvation is that it has to be maintained. Like it's, it's like there's a blurring between justification and sanctification in the way that Christians understand them. But anyway, yeah, and I will just say I don't want it to be law. Like a lot of times I will tell parents, you know, raise your children to be obedient because it's better even Whether they ever become believers or not, it's better for all of us to have moral neighbors than immoral neighbors. Sure, it just is. I mean, that's easy. This actually is a throwback to our Ten Commandments conversation, which I have a funny thing to tell you about that, but I think that the Mormons are an example of that. It's like, would you rather live next to a Mormon than a Satanist? Yeah. I mean, but. And so when you think about it from a parenting standpoint, like, give your children morality, not for the purpose of earning. Like, make sure they understand it's not for earning, but it's. It's the instruction manual for how to be human. And that's why I wonder, if the Mormons are. Would you say they're closer to the kingdom, no others, or not? I mean, I think that's an interesting question.

[Kyle Worley]

I would say that there are some false religions that seem to create more social collateral than others.

[Jen Wilkin]

Oh, that's a good way to put it.

[Kyle Worley]

So I would say that, like, horizontal, like, I would say no, closer to the kingdom isn't measured in degrees. You know, it's like you're either transferring. It's like you're in or you're out. Right. But. But I would say that in terms of borrowing, borrowing language. Mormons have borrowed more and more. More of the ethical framework, more of the ethical foundation. Again, they have it. Unfortunately, I don't think they've borrowed the engine. I think they've castigated or. Or remove the engine, but they've borrowed a lot of the ethical framework, and for that reason, they create less negative collateral in a society.

[Jen Wilkin]

I want to clarify what I meant when I said closer to the kingdom. I was thinking of when Jesus says, you are not far from the kingdom of heaven. So what I meant was, is there a potential for greater receptivity among Mormons than there might be with the Satanists? And probably the answer is that would be person to person, depending on how the spirit is doing a work, it probably would be.

[Kyle Worley]

The only difference is Mormons are so heavily catechized. Like, they are so heavily catechized. Catechized where we're dealing systematically. Catechized, 100% and apologetically. Catechized, Meaning they're not only told, this is what we believe as Mormons, they're told, this is what you believe as a Mormon, and this is what you're going to hear from Christians, and they're going to tell you that this is what's true about God, but it's not True. About God. And here's 10 reasons why. So they're not.

[J.T. English]

It's funny that they, that they still want to maintain the brand of Christianity. You know, I mean, I use that term brand intentionally. It's like, I think it's kind of a PR move of like positioning themselves within the broader framework of denominationalism when they themselves have never said that that's the case. Case doctrinally. Yeah. That's interesting. But also this. It's interesting to think about how this conversation maps on one of our previous episodes around Judaism.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah.

[J.T. English]

You know, I mean, of course we're having very different conversations in terms of what, what Jews believe and what Mormons believe, but there is a lot of borrowed language, biblical language. I think we had that episode on did Jews worship the same God? Right. That kind of the conversation that you were forced to with Kyle. And I forget where you. Where you first heard that, but that was a great conversation. And. But I would say here, especially in a cultural moment where there is a lot of confusion around image bearing, gender and sexuality, Christians have, I, I think this is an appropriate word. Allies in, in potentially Judaism, Jehovah's Witness. Mormonism is Muslims who have a very clear framework for what a person is. We don't agree on all things, but they understand male, female distinctions. That if I'm, if I'm going to a school board meeting, I want another Muslim coming to teach what Muslims believe about gender and sexuality insofar as they're teaching against what kind of a postmodern, post Christian, hypersexualized version of, you know, blurring all gender distinctions or any binaries, while at the same time that Muslim and I have extremely different views on image bearing and dignity and value and worth and the goddess who did create that person. And so it's really important for Christians to. Whether we're having conversations with Jews, Muslims, Mormons or Jehovah's Witness, there are moments of agreement or at least a shared understanding where we can help each other culturally. For there to be policies enacted to say a boy is a boy and a girl is a girl, while at the same time not blurring the distinctions of doctrinal orthodoxy that we maintain as Christians.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah. And this is actually really important. I'm glad you brought this up, because then you have to ask yourself what is the best account of why that overlap exists? And I'm. And I believe the best account is the one that is provided by the Christian account, which is. We should not be surprised to find this overlap exists even between a Christian And a Muslim on some of these more we might call natural law or common sense realities because we're image bearers of God.

[Jen Wilkin]

God, right.

[Kyle Worley]

And one of the things that the religious impulse does, and it does it in a variety of ways across a variety of religious expressions, is that once you have surrendered yourself to nihilism or a nihilistic existentialism, which is I would say, really the kind of subterranean spirit at work. And I mean spirit not necessarily just purely in the spiritual sense, but in the worldview sense underneath Western culture, almost everything is a better religious alternative than nihilism. Almost everything. Nihilism is that there is no purpose or meaning, intrinsic or extrinsic to the world around us.

[Jen Wilkin]

What was the. You said nihilistic existentialism.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, so nihilist. So nihilists would say there is no purpose, intrinsic or extrinsic to the world around us. There is no God. Nihilism is like there is no God. There is no meaning, there is no purpose. And I could not conjure it if I would. Nihilistic existentialism is basically, there is no extrinsic meaning to the world or true, authentic intrinsic meaning to the world. But I'm going to do my very best to try to create something out of this mess. And I would say that's really life in the global West. That's expressive individualism. Expressive individualism. There is no transcendent meaning or purpose in the world.

[Jen Wilkin]

But I'm going, so you do. You boo.

[Kyle Worley]

That's right. And almost every religious alternative is better than that at a social.

[J.T. English]

And in some way is going to have tools to fight against that.

[Kyle Worley]

Exactly. Because every, almost every other religious view is going to have some sense that there is something that must be submitted to, which is the precursor to being able to work together at all, is to realize that yourself is not, you know, it's not a megalomaniac society where every individual operates as a God unto themselves. That world is a really bad one. And it can't. There can be no social cohesion. And so, yeah, I mean, I think when you compare, you know, you compare Islam or Mormonism or any other non Christian religion to the alternative of nihilism or nihilistic existentialism. All of those are better neighbors than that, you know, because all of them have some sense that there's a duty beyond self, something beyond self. But. But once you're there. So I do think that's a really important thing. And then asking yourself what accounts for that, it is important that you know, again, we're trying to give a fair shake here, but the important thing for us to acknowledge here is that Mormonism from its inception was not claiming to be a faithful branch of Christianity as we know it. They were claiming to be something different, a restoration of what they believed, or what Joseph Smith believed was New Testament Christianity on every core doctrinal level. Every core doctrinal level. Doctrine of man, doctrine of scripture, doctrine of salvation, doctrine of God. I mean, we just listed the big four. Mormons are not Christian in their theology. This isn't like a. They're close but no cigar. This is a. This is a completely. This is a completely separate cult.

[Jen Wilkin]

You're so mean, Kyle. You're such a mean meanie.

[Kyle Worley]

I just. I don't want our listeners to be under any. Again.

[J.T. English]

Well, he's agreeing, ironically, with Joseph Smith.

[Kyle Worley]

We're great and we're grateful. And listen, we're grateful that they're good neighbors.

[Jen Wilkin]

I just love when he makes a big point. We just stare at him.

[J.T. English]

Yeah. Wow, Kyle, why be so blunt about it?

[Kyle Worley]

But this means you should share the gospel with your Mormon neighbors, right?

[Jen Wilkin]

That's right.

[Kyle Worley]

In word and deed. They are lost people who are in need of the hope of Christ. And I hope you'll do that in ways that are truth in love. But you should. You should not be thinking, my Mormon neighbor doesn't need the gospel.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, and there are a lot of people where you're like, I don't know if this conversation's ever going to come up, but with your Mormon friends, you know, the conversation is going to come up. And so, because they're going to introduce it, which means that of all the evangelistic opportunities, this is one to be ready for. Because if you have Mormon friends, these conversations will arise.

[Sponsor/Host]

They will. They will.

[Kyle Worley]

Well, we hope that you enjoy the discussion. We're going to keep on exploring these tricky topics and thorny questions. And coming up on these summer episodes, we've got some great episodes for you. We're talking about Jen's forthcoming book, Dust to Dust. That'll be an episode that releases here next week. We're really excited about that. We have an episode coming up with the Lithos team on why every Christian should read Pilgrim's Progress. And then we have an episode coming up with Shane Pruitt and Shelley Melia that's all about who Gen Alpha is and what it means to reach them with deep discipleship. But if you're interested in being a part of the solution to theological illiteracy, please go to lifeway.com deep discipleship and Explore the Deep Discipleship Program. If you are if you're a family looking for family discipleship for older students, this could be something your family does together for 24 weeks next year. Like you could take your teens through this together and say, hey, we're going to do this and we are going to do discipleship together. Maybe you're looking for something for your small group, your homeschool co op, something for a graduate. You want to walk a graduating senior in your house or in your ministry through something to prepare them to hold the faith that was once delivered to them through college. This is a great fit for that. So if you're looking for a way to out catechize your Mormon neighbors, then boy oh boy do we have a solution for the you go check out lifeway.com deep discipleship and see if the Deep Discipleship Program is right for you. Thank you for listening to our podcast today. Don't forget to check out our sponsors through our webpage link in the show notes or online at trainthechurch.com under the Knowing Faith Podcast webpage. We hope you enjoyed the discussion. Grace and Peace.