Do Jews and Christians Worship the Same God?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Knowing Faith – "Do Jews and Christians Worship the Same God?"

Hosts: Kyle Worley, JT English, Jen Wilkin
Date: May 21, 2026
Episode Theme:
A thoughtful exploration of whether Jews and Christians worship the same God, examining theological, biblical, historical, and practical perspectives.

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Overview of the Episode

The hosts dive into a question frequently encountered in both academic and pastoral settings: Do Jews and Christians worship the same God? While this might seem simple at first glance, the group unpacks layers of biblical doctrine, historical context, and personal convictions, wrestling with issues like the Trinity, progressive revelation, and the practical implications for evangelism and interfaith relationships.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Starting Question and Initial Positions

• Kyle Worley introduces the main question, initially thinking it was straightforward but quickly realizing its complexity after audience reactions:

  “I did not think this question was that deep ... I thought, like, simple, move on. Like, it felt like a lightning round question to me.” (03:01)

• Kyle’s answer: No, they do not worship the same God.
• Jen Wilkin’s response: “Sort of.” (05:01)
• JT English expresses a desire to moderate and draw out nuanced positions.

2. The Trinity as a Key Distinction

• Jen Wilkin articulates a crucial difference:

  “I'm a big fan of the attributes of God…one of God's attributes is that he's triune.” (05:07)

• Kyle Worley agrees, highlighting the centrality of trinitarian belief and the Incarnation:

  “Contemporary Jews do not believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God…They deny that Christ is the Messiah. They deny that he's the second person of the Trinity…” (06:11)

• JT English clarifies using biblical language:

  “He is one essence, not one person.” (07:41)

3. Old Testament Faith & Progressive Revelation

• The hosts discuss whether Old Testament saints, such as Abraham, worshiped the triune God, despite not having explicit revelation of the Trinity.
• Kyle:

  “Did Abraham have the full content of who this God was in his nature? No, I don't think he did…But he doesn’t say, 'He’s only one person.'” (06:32)

• They agree the Old Testament does not teach two gods but also does not contradict future trinitarian doctrine.

4. Language and the Shema

• The Hebrew language of Deuteronomy 6 (“the Lord is one”) is analyzed.
• Kyle Worley explains the words echad (unity) vs. yahid (singular):

  “Echad ... is unity, it's unified. ... While the Shema does not give us some sort of, like, ... detailed explanation of the Trinity, it's not precluding the possibility of triune theology.” (08:53)

• JT English recounts a personal story of reciting the Shema in Hebrew at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, emphasizing the shared tradition but also the divergence in interpretation. (12:03)

5. Stumbling Block: Jesus and Contemporary Judaism

• The split, the hosts agree, is ultimately over the person of Jesus.
• JT English:

  “If you don't worship Jesus Christ as God, then we don't worship the same God.” (13:36)

• Jen Wilkin:

  “The account in the Gospels is designed to show that the Jews rejected Christ as Messiah and He's a stumbling block to them.” (14:07)

6. Emotional and Historical Complexities

• Kyle highlights emotional complexity, especially among evangelicals:

  “Part of this is just conflated with... a desire to make sure that we don’t do anything that might besmirch Israel or the Jews. ... Are they at the family reunion, just further down the table? ... No, they’re not there.” (14:23)

• Jen adds:

  “There is a lot of shared DNA though. We call it the Judeo Christian ethic for a reason.” (15:39)

7. Evangelism and Proximity to Faith

• Jen Wilkin raises the question:

  “Do you think that a Jewish person is closer to coming to faith than a Muslim or a Hindu person?” (16:11)

• Kyle Worley:

  “Experience has not shown that to be true for me.” (16:21)

• Jen:

  “...there are some people who would regard their exposure to the things of God as kindling that’s ready to be ignited versus someone who has not grown up in the world of the Bible at all.” (21:00)

8. Paul’s Burden for Israel (Romans 10–11)

• JT draws on Romans 10–11:

  “Paul is talking about the relationship between Jews and Gentiles and the good news of the Gospel. ... I want them to be saved. ... Israel has rejected the message.” (18:13)

• The conversation also touches on whether there will be a future mass conversion of Jews (eschatological ingathering).
  • Kyle:

    “I do not believe in a eschatological ingathering of Jewish people in a way that’s disproportionate to the rest of the world. I don't hold that.” (23:20)

9. Clarification and Pastoral Invitation

• Kyle Worley closes with clarity and empathy:

  “I am for sharing the gospel with Jewish people. ... They don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. ... This is because they don’t believe that God is who he has told them he is. Why is that? The case is a mystery beyond my grappling.” (24:09–26:14)

• Jen Wilkin affirms this nuance and calls for careful engagement and evangelism:

  “I think we also have to be careful about... Judaism is not monolithic ... we hope you share the gospel with every person around you.” (27:45–28:12)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Kyle Worley:

  “To be a member of the family of Christ is to be a part of the body of Christ. That’s contingent on proclamation that Jesus Christ is Lord.” (15:11)

• JT English:

  “If you don't worship Jesus Christ as God, then we don't worship the same God.” (13:36)

• Jen Wilkin:

  “I think there is a lot of shared DNA though. We call it the Judeo Christian ethic for a reason.” (15:39)

• Kyle Worley:

  “I want to dignify the position of contemporary Jews... But it is my understanding that contemporary Jews do not believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God.” (06:08)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:01: Introduction of main question
• 05:07: Jen introduces the Trinity as crucial
• 06:11–07:41: Trinity, progressive revelation, and Old Testament saints
• 08:53–10:03: Hebrew distinctions, Shema, and real-world story
• 13:36: The Incarnation and worship of Jesus as dividing line
• 14:23: Emotional/theological implications for Christians and Israel
• 16:11–16:54: Is Judaism “closer” to Christianity than other faiths?
• 18:13–19:46: Romans 10–11, Paul’s heart for Israel
• 23:04–23:20: The question of eschatological conversion of Jews
• 24:09–26:14: Kyle’s summary and clarifying pastoral comments
• 27:45–28:12: Jen’s final reminder on evangelism and nuanced approaches

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Flow and Tone

Throughout the episode, the hosts balance academic rigor, deep respect for Jewish beliefs, pastoral concern for clarity and church life, and a bit of characteristic banter. They encourage listeners to love their Jewish neighbors enough to share the distinctives of Christian faith, grounded in the nature of God as revealed in Christ and in scripture, while resisting careless oversimplifications.

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Summary Takeaway

Final consensus:

• The referent (“God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”) is the same, but Christian worship is centered on the Trinity and Incarnation—realities contemporary Judaism formally rejects.
• There is deep historical/theological overlap, but present-day worship is meaningfully divergent.
• Practical implication: Christians are encouraged to evangelize Jews with humility, clarity, and compassion, acknowledging both connection and difference.

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For Further Reflection:

• Can shared Old Testament faith serve as “kindling” for gospel impact today?
• How can Christians honor Jewish heritage while not minimizing gospel distinctives?
• What does it look like to engage Jewish friends or neighbors with respect and gospel boldness?

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Transcript

[Kyle Worley]

This episode of Knowing Faith is brought to you by Crossway, publisher of the Grace Laced Bible Journaling Edition. This Bible showcases the beauty of God's word alongside artist Ruth Chow Simon's signature watercolor art. Featuring 50 full page verse illustrations, 250 illustrated verses, and lined writing space in the margins, this elegant journaling Bible is ideal for personal reading and reflection, small group study, or taking notes during sermons. Pick up a copy of the ESV Grace Laced Bible wherever books are sold or visit Crossway.org ESVGracelaced to learn how to get 30% off with a free Crossway plus account. Being single does not mean something is wrong with you, but too often that's the message many Christians have received. In Still Single, Still Cold, Doug Hankins gently challenges the assumption that singleness is a problem to solve rather than a calling to honor. Instead of pointing singles towards marriage as the finish line, Hankins points them towards purpose, grounding singleness in Scripture and highlighting men and women in the Bible who faithfully followed God while single with biblical insight, practical wisdom and a touch of humor. Still Single, Still Called invites churches to rethink how they care for single adults and remind singles they are already fully known, fully loved and fully called. Singles don't need a spouse to be complete. They need a savior. Learn [e-mail]. This is Kyle Worley. I'm joined by my co host Jen Wilken and J.T. english. And you know, last episode guys we gave him a lot of personality and a lot of banter. So this week I'm driving us right to the point. I'm taking us right there. And that's because we really want to approach these tricky questions and thorny topics with one another. We think that theology is for everyone. If you believe theology is for everyone too, that's probably one of the reasons why you're listening to this show. But if you've been trying to find a way to engage in doing what we do on this podcast together with other people in your community, then maybe you'd like to know that we've actually built a program for you to do this very thing. If you go to lifeway.com deepdiscipleship you'll find out about the Deep Discipleship program. You could get together with three or four other people in your neighborhood or your small group or a class at church. Your whole church could go through it. You could use it as a high school curriculum, your older kids as they get ready to go off to college. This is usable and scalable in a number of different ways. And we actually have just been celebrating in the season that we're recording this episode. Lots of pictures coming in from churches that have done this and classes that have done. It's been so sweet to see people graduating all throughout the country from the Deep Discipleship Program. So if you're interested in doing theology and community with other people around you, then go check out lifeway.com deepdiscipleship and find out how you can start planning to launch the Deep Discipleship Program this fall. Maybe even right after Labor Day. Would be perfect timing to do this. So go check it [e-mail] deepdiscipleship today, we're asking a question that I didn't think was that deep. I'm gonna be honest with you. I did not think this question was that deep.

[J.T. English]

And I'm really interested in this conversation because I asked my staff this question on the way in here. I said, I said, I'm gonna go do the podcast. And there were some serious opinions on both sides of this question.

[Jen Wilken]

Oh, I walked.

[Kyle Worley]

I walked right into, like, a bear trap. I was doing a Q and A. O. So our question is, do Jews and Christians worship the same God? Okay, that's the big question. I was doing a Q and A, and I was asked this question, and I thought, like, simple, move on. Like, it felt like a lightning round question to me.

[J.T. English]

What did you say?

[Kyle Worley]

Said no.

[J.T. English]

I knew he would say no.

[Kyle Worley]

Wait, wait. I like. And the people, people immediately. It was like a digital thing. And people immediately started, like, in the chat. Like, I could see the little dot, dot of, like, the chat is moving. And it, like, what do you mean they don't worship the same God? And like, the Jews and Christianity came from J. Judaism. Like, Christianity was initially a Jewish. Like, I mean, people went, did they straighten you out? No, No. And I did not win anybody back. Like, people left that Q and A.

[Jen Wilken]

Wait, so you're saying change people's minds, huh? Interesting.

[J.T. English]

Yeah, it sounds like. Jen, I'm. I'm looking forward to my role being the moderator here. Then I don't have to give my position. But, Kyle, it sounds like you would still say no and say it firmly.

[Kyle Worley]

I mean, I have this question here genuinely, because I walked away feeling like, wait, am I crazy?

[J.T. English]

Like, okay, so you get to stop there, Jen, it sounds like you would say yes.

[Jen Wilken]

I would say sort of.

[Kyle Worley]

Okay, maybe, and. And. And I'm fine.

[J.T. English]

That's not an answer. It's yes or no. It's the podcast.

[Jen Wilken]

Well, here's what I get hung up on. And I think you of all people, JT will appreciate this. I'm a big fan of the attributes of God. I think they're pretty important. And one of God's attributes is that he's triune.

[Kyle Worley]

So

[Jen Wilken]

yeah, that's an issue. And then, but, but also, you know, progressive revelation. I don't know what to do with that. Like, I think that the, the version of God, obviously the Old Testament God and the New Testament God are not two different gods.

[Kyle Worley]

No. That we're all on the same page.

[Jen Wilken]

Right. And so. But I think there's a secondary question here, and that is do modern day Jews worship the God of the Old Testament? Is that. Did I say that right? That's not right.

[Kyle Worley]

They think they worship the God of the Old Testament.

[Jen Wilken]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kyle Worley]

And I'm not trying to be offensive. If you're a Jewish, if you're a Jewish listener, welcome to the show. I don't know how you got here, but I'm delighted that you're here.

[Jen Wilken]

Yeah.

[Kyle Worley]

We want to dignify.

[Jen Wilken]

We're not trying to be ugly, we're just trying to be clear.

[Kyle Worley]

No. And I want to dignify the position of contemporary Jews. And so I certainly don't want to misrepresent it. But it is my understanding that contemporary Jews do not believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. Correct. That Orthodox Jews deny that Christ is the Messiah. They deny that he's the second person of the Trinity because they do not believe that God is triune. And I don't think it's a question of did Abraham believe in worship the God of Christians? I think yes, Abraham believed. Did Abraham have the full content of who this God was in his nature? No, I don't think he did. In the same way that I don't think an 8 year old must be, must be able to explain paracoretic relationships in the Trinity. I don't think that my daughter needs to be able to do that to make a profession of faith. But she can't deny the Trinity. She can't deny the Trinity. And Abraham doesn't come out and say, you know what? I do believe in Yahweh, but I want to be very clear. He's only one person. If Abraham said that, then we'd have to say Abraham did not worship the one true God. But, but he doesn't say that.

[Jen Wilken]

But hero, Israel, the Lord our God is one.

[Kyle Worley]

There are two different Hebrew words for one. One. There are. Okay, okay, okay.

[J.T. English]

And he is one essence, not One person.

[Kyle Worley]

Right, I'm sorry, you're right, yes.

[J.T. English]

No, you said person, you said it right.

[Jen Wilken]

I'm just saying that if I'm listening to you say that, a lot of Christians know the Shema.

[Kyle Worley]

Okay, well, let's, let's dig into it. There are two Hebrew words for one. One of them is the word echad. The other one is the word yaha and, or, excuse me, yahid. Yahid is singular, one meaning we use it like numerical. Like if, if I said I have one pen that I'm holding in my hand, the word I would use would be yahid. If I said my hands have come together and are now echad, we would say this is like one, meaning it's unity, it's unified. So while the Shema does not give us some sort of, like the Shema doesn't give us. And nowhere in the Old Testament, I would say, do we find some sort of detailed explanation of the Trinity, it's not precluding the possibility of triune theology. And I think it's actually going out of its way in the Hebrew to give metaphysical and semantic grounding that would allow for a progressive revelation of God's trinitarian nature. That's, that's my. So if you're hearing Deuteronomy 6, you go, well, that means one singular meaning. I have one pin in my hand and that's what it means in Deuteronomy 6. I would just say, I think the Hebrew language that's used there is actually going out of its way to avoid that kind of constrictive conclusion.

[Jen Wilken]

Well, but couldn't a modern day Jew say, I mean, that's their language, language,

[Kyle Worley]

but it's not their language Hebrew. I mean, not ancient Hebrew. People aren't walking around like, if a modern day Jew came up to me and said, oh yeah, well you're, you're referencing the Hebrew, we know it better than you. I'd go, okay, great, well, let's talk about it. Do you know it better than me? You're, you're walking around speaking a dead language. You and your friends get together and talk about Ahad and Yahid. No, you're not doing that.

[J.T. English]

Have I?

[Kyle Worley]

In the same way that when Muslims are like, oh, you got to read the Quran in Arabic, my first question to you is, great, let's bust it open and you read it to me right now in Arabic. They don't know how to read it in Arabic.

[J.T. English]

Have I ever shared this story with you guys of being at the temple in Jerusalem and having a Conversation with a. With a Jew about this verse.

[Kyle Worley]

No, no, tell us.

[J.T. English]

Like, I've lived this moment. Like, I've actually, in my life, lived the moment.

[Jen Wilken]

Kyle, why you been sitting over there? Just watching Kyle ramble on about Muslim Jews. He's trying to.

[J.T. English]

Well, as you guys know, I didn't. I'm not a huge fan of the biblical languages. It's not that they're not important. They are. I just wasn't very good at them, and I was much.

[Kyle Worley]

There goes every seminary sponsorship.

[J.T. English]

No, they're so important and I don't

[Jen Wilken]

know them at all.

[Kyle Worley]

I'm not a huge fan of the biblical languages. Somewhere Peter Gurry and John Mead, literally just.

[J.T. English]

No, I love them. I love that they're there. They're important. I just wasn't as good at them. I kind of trended towards the church history, systematic theology classes. I was better at Greek. Hebrew's hard. It's right to left. It doesn't look the same as the English language at all. It looks like script. It's just as hard. I was in a class with Dorian Coover Cox at Dallas Seminary. She was my Hebrew professor, and we were studying the Book of Ruth. And I'm struggling, and I just didn't. Didn't do great. But she, like, passed me. She worked really well with me. While we were going with John Hannah, a professor at Dallas Seminary, to Israel, Macy got me this trip as a part of, like, my graduation, like, gift, like, celebration. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, we're going to Israel. I don't. I don't know Hebrew very well. I should learn some. He should brush up. It'd been a few years. I should brush up on my Hebrew. So I memorized the Shema in Hebrew, just thinking, this is going to come in, you know, it's going to be valuable. Shemach Yisrael Adonai Eloheino Adonai Ihad, which is what you just said, Kyle. The Lord your God. The Lord is one. So weeks go by, then we're there at the Temple Mount and you can tell the evangelical groups that are walking around. And there's the Western Wall and there's the Dome of the Rock. And we're sitting there one night, like, eating gelato, and this, like, Orthodox Jew approaches the group and he's like, so you guys are evangelicals, huh? I was like, yeah, you know, we're here from Dallas. And he said, is any. Are you going to be pastors? And I was like, no, no pastors here. I wasn't a pastor at the time, but I said, I did just graduate from seminary and you could tell he was like. He was like a shark. He thought he was going to destroy me. And he goes, oh, you're a seminary student, you must know Hebrew. And I go, yeah, I do.

[Jen Wilken]

Yep.

[J.T. English]

And he goes, well, why don't you say something for me? And so I say this. Shema shemach yisrael arahai and Heru aronai ichad. And he goes, wow, very good. And he just walks away. And so that's the only Hebrew I know and remember. But I've like lived telling an orthodox Jew that the Lord is one in front of the temple, but I think your point is well taken, Kyle. But I've got something I want to add to the conversation. But, Jen, have you. Would you say yes or no? Do Jews and Christians worship the same God?

[Jen Wilken]

I said, sort of.

[J.T. English]

I know, that's why I'm coming back to you.

[Jen Wilken]

I think the answer is no. But I can understand why it's not as clear as Kyle wants it to be.

[J.T. English]

Yeah. So I think we could say something along the lines of the referent of the Old Testament. God is the same. When we say the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, like the objective reality of that God existing, speaking all things into existence, entering into a covenant with Abraham and Moses. There are not two gods. There's one God. Right.

[Kyle Worley]

That's right. And not just admittedly for Jews and Christians, but for everyone.

[J.T. English]

For everyone. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Which is why I think some people could say. Yes, I think where. Where I agree with it sounds like you, Jen, but also Kyle is. And I would. I would certainly point to trinitarianism here. That's a hu. Part of this for me. But I think more than anything, even more than that, though of course, this is trinitarian in nature. I would point to the Incarnation.

[Jen Wilken]

Yeah.

[J.T. English]

Dual nature of Christ, like he is. I'm preaching on Colossians chapter one. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, for by him all things were created. If you don't worship Jesus Christ as God, then we don't worship the same God.

[Kyle Worley]

Yes, yes. And it's a one thing for an Old Testament saint to not have. To not be on the other side

[J.T. English]

of the translation to have the fullness of the revelation.

[Kyle Worley]

And it's a very different thing to have the fullness of revelation and reject it.

[Jen Wilken]

Well, I was going to say the account in the Gospels is designed to show that the Jews rejected Christ as

[J.T. English]

Messiah and He's a stumbling block to them.

[Jen Wilken]

He's a stumbling block and he is the second member of the Trinity.

[Kyle Worley]

This question also gets compounded by some of the difficulty of this gets compounded by an emotional relationship that some Christians in the west have with Israel.

[Jen Wilken]

I don't know what you're talking about. What are you talking about?

[Kyle Worley]

Well, we don't have to, we don't have to get into it. It's not a hot button topic at all. But I, I do think, I mean, part of, part of this is just conflated with. I, I think there's a desire to, to make sure that we don't do anything that might besmirch Israel or the Jews. And this feels like a hard topic to have, but I think it's actually one of the reasons or one of the things that, that maybe holds Christians back, Evangelicals in particular, from meaningful evangelistic engagement with their Jewish neighbors. It's like there's kind of a sense of like, well, maybe like, are they kind of like, like, are they at the family reunion? They're just like further down the table. And the truth is like, no, they're, they're not there. They're not at the family reunion. Oh, I'm not trying to be dismissive. I'm just saying, like, we're not a part of these. To be a member of the family of Christ is to be a part of the body of Christ. That's contingent on proclamation that Jesus Christ is Lord.

[Jen Wilken]

I think there is a lot of shared DNA though. We call it the Judeo Christian ethic for a reason.

[J.T. English]

Jesus was Jewish.

[Kyle Worley]

And I'm not saying that there is no influence of Judaism on Christianity. I'm simply saying that a contemporary Jewish person and a contemporary Christian person are not together in the same family of God.

[Jen Wilken]

Do you think that a Jewish person is closer to coming to faith than a Muslim or a Hindu person?

[Kyle Worley]

Experience has not shown me, has not shown that to be true for me

[Jen Wilken]

because a lot of people come back from their Israel trip and they're like, our guide Moshi, he knew so much about the Bible and I just think he's not far from the kingdom.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, well, Moshe is incentivized to work with Christians.

[Jen Wilken]

Well, sure. But I'm just saying that I think there is something in are thinking that's like, wow, they know, you know, the Old Testament books. That's ha. It's more than half of the Bible that I carry around.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, well, I mean, the Pharisees were walking around knowing quite a bit of The Old Testament as well. They certainly missed it.

[Jen Wilken]

Yeah, you're, like, super spicy today.

[Kyle Worley]

I'm not. I just don't think this is a complicated question. I'm like, I'm astounded. And I know part of the role here of what we're doing is like to make what feels like a simple question more complicated. And I appreciate the discussion, but I think part of what troubles me. Not about this, because this is a great conversation, part of what troubles me about this larger question is how dismissive it is. Not what you guys are doing, but kind of the equivocation, how dismissive it is over the reality of sin and the fact that there are no gradations between being in Adam and in Christ. There's nothing. It's not a spectrum.

[J.T. English]

You're not wrong. I agree with everything you're saying and I've done. I've played this role on the podcast before. I don't want to play it. I wish somebody else would play it. I don't want to do this, guys. I feel like it's a shtick at this point, but, like, I just need you guys to know I don't enjoy playing this role, but I'll do it because I love the Bible, and I think we should all love the Bible. Here it comes. I just transferred over. I mean, Kyle, you're right. There's no gradation between being in Adam and in Christ. That's Romans chapter five. But it also seems like he's saying something slightly different in Romans 10 and 11.

[Kyle Worley]

Okay, tell me.

[J.T. English]

Okay, what you just said is Romans chapter 10. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but here a few of the highlights, because Paul was talking about the relationship between Jews and Gentiles and the good news of the Gospel. And he's wondering, is Israel's rejection of Christ going to result in eternal damnation for them? And Paul's like, pouring out his heart. He's like, these are my brothers. I would rather be cut off so that they could be added. God has graciously elected them. His election of them is just. And then Romans chapter 10 is what you just said. He says, brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God concerning them is for their salvation. I want them to be saved. But then verse four. But Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. So that's what you just said. And he's summing up Romans chapter 5. But then he goes on to say this. Israel has rejected the message. And this is where we get one of our most famous passage. So who's going to go tell them how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news to them? That's not just to anybody. He's talking specifically to Jews who've rejected the good news of the gospel. How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news. But not all have obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, lord, who has believed our message? So faith comes from hearing. And I love your point there. That's why we go evangelize. That's why we should be willing. And that's the. There's nobody who's closer. You're the guy who knows the Bible and Israel isn't closer, but we need to go share the gospel with him. Romans, chapter 11. Then, though, says I ask then, has God rejected his people? He's clearly talking about Israel there. Yeah, right. Can we agree with that?

[Kyle Worley]

I understand what you're saying. I don't want to get into all the conversations we've had before about who's talking about this. But there's one.

[J.T. English]

There's absolutely not. I too, am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. And God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, I don't disagree with anything that God's word says. I think it's perfectly. It's inspired, it's profitable. And if anybody's wrong, it's not Paul, it's me. There's no doubt about that.

[J.T. English]

Well, then he goes on to say Israel's. Israel's rejection is not final.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, I believe that as it pertains to an individual level. I don't believe that. I do not believe that as it pertains to people groups. And I think that Paul's appealed to himself in that situation.

[J.T. English]

But he's using the second person plural.

[Kyle Worley]

He is.

[J.T. English]

But when he's using groups of people.

[Kyle Worley]

When Paul talks about Israel's rejection, ptsd. I know we have been.

[J.T. English]

I'll stop. I'm stopping, I'm stopping.

[Kyle Worley]

No, no. But I do think the point you're making is important because I don't think any lost person is too lost. I just don't think that what happens at the end is a corporate ingathering of any nationality, let alone Israel.

[Jen Wilken]

Well, and I do think there's sort of a low level thinking among Christians that Jews are less lost. Other lost people.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, I, I agree 100% with that. In the same way that I think Paul might too.

[Jen Wilken]

But I think. Well, hold on. I'm. This is why I'm Saying, sort of. Because I think that there are some people who would regard their exposure to the things of God as kindling that's ready to be ignited versus someone who is not. Who has not grown up in the world of the Bible at all.

[Kyle Worley]

Sure, yeah. And. And that would be, yeah, gosh, great, if true.

[Jen Wilken]

I'm not saying. I. I don't know whether that's true or not, but I think that is a driving factor in the way people think about this question. And it's why I'm hesitant to just be like. Like, I know that strictly speaking, someone who doesn't believe in the Trinity is called a heretic. Like, I. I get that. But it does feel like because the Jews have the first half of the story, and you're telling me that the language leaves room for trinitarian interpretation to follow or to be seen throughout, that it might not be fair to say that they don't have the capacity to move toward a trinitarian God. A greater capacity for that than, say, someone who is Hindu or atheist. I don't know. I don't know. And maybe that's what it means, that God still has his chosen people, because his chosen people still have, you know, half of the disclosure of his word.

[J.T. English]

I heard Greg Allison say this way once. He basically said Romans 5. Yes, all are in Adam or in Christ and Israel, just like Gentiles is in Adam because of their sin. And then he said something along the lines of, but in the kingdom, there will be a particularly Jewish flavor, not because of their ethnicity, but because they specifically will come to Christ in great droves in the end times. Would you be comfortable saying that, Kyle,

[Kyle Worley]

that Jews come together, come to Christ in great droves at the end times?

[J.T. English]

Because they will. Maybe. I'm not. I don't want to say something Jen just said there that she didn't say there. But because of their familiarity with the Old Testament literature, they will eventually, through regeneration, see Christ as the fulfillment of the law. I do not like a familiarity.

[Kyle Worley]

This is probably a great question for another episode. I do not believe in a eschatological in gathering of Jewish people in a way that's disproportionate to the rest of the world. I don't hold that. And I understand. I'm an outlier, and I understand that it is. I think there are really sound arguments for viewing the relevant passages that way. I just don't believe them. I think that we need to do

[J.T. English]

an episode on Romans 10 on your view. On Roman.

[Jen Wilken]

We did. Oh, my gosh.

[J.T. English]

We did.

[Jen Wilken]

Oh, I still remember it.

[Kyle Worley]

It would be great to come back and do an esque. An eschatology episode. I want to say this because I. And JT has done a good job actually, which is rare for him. Of not.

[J.T. English]

I love being here, guys.

[Kyle Worley]

Of not typecasting one of us into a pigeonhole that like, is. It sounds.

[Jen Wilken]

You're the bad guy.

[Kyle Worley]

You're the great job. JT Maturity, you know, God sanctifies his people. But I do want to say part of what I've said could give the wrong impression. I am for sharing the gospel with Jewish people. And I want to be clear that the reason I'm for sharing the gospel with Jewish people is because they don't believe the gospel and they don't believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. And while I am grateful that God chose through the nation of Israel to bring the Messiah into the world, and while I'm grateful that God chose through the nation of Israel to raise up prophets and priests who would be inspired to write God's word down, and while I'm grateful to continue to make that journey through the patriarchs and the psalms and the prophets and the wisdom literature about God's people's journey and to find myself even among their story and as an heir of the story of the history of redemption as a Christian. Contemporary Jews do not believe that God is triune. They do not believe that Jesus Christ is the enfleshed son of God. They do not believe that the Holy Spirit indwells God's people. And this is because they don't believe that God is who he has told them he is. Why is that? The case is a mystery beyond my grappling. It seems like part of the New Testament is saying that their hearts have been hardened, their eyes have been blinded, their ears have been stopped. For what purpose? It seems it accords best with the providence of God and not the plans of Kyle Worley. And I hope that many, if not all of them, profess faith in Christ and experience Christian salvation. And I hope that as they do that, that they bring in the best of of the Old Testament tradition with them into a redeemed landscape of Christ. I just want to be clear about that. So is that fair?

[Jen Wilken]

Yeah, I thought that was. Well said.

[Kyle Worley]

Great, jt. Great job moderating there, man.

[J.T. English]

Well, you guys ended up not disagreeing at all, so it was pretty easy.

[Kyle Worley]

Well, but maybe you were the one that was going to be the disagreement out of the three of us, when you asked your staff what was your what I want. I want to come back to that, because you mentioned it. You say immediately you got a range.

[J.T. English]

I just think there was two very quick gut reactions. Well, yes, of course they do. It's the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. No, of course they don't. We believe in the Trinity, in the Incarnation. It was just kind of that.

[Jen Wilken]

I'm a little interested in the way that sometimes it sounds like Christians would find it more exciting to announce the conversion of a Jew than of a Muslim or just a run of the mill unbeliever. I just think there's a lot going on psychologically with the way that we think about Jews and Judaism. And also I think it's worth mentioning that Judaism is not. That modern Judaism is not monolithic in the same way that Protestantism is not monolithic. And so I think we also have to be careful about. I mean, the things that you said that Jews do not believe, I think are broadly applicable. But I think where some people get wrapped up with the ambiguity of, or the perceived ambiguity is similar to the way that, you know, if I were to ask you, are Catholics saved?

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah.

[Jen Wilken]

And strictly speaking, I think you would say according to. If they. If they truly adhere to Catholic doctrines.

[J.T. English]

What would you say with that, Kyle?

[Jen Wilken]

But do you see what I'm saying? We're not going to get into that. J.T. j.T. So happy. But I think that's why people are like, oh, I just don't want to be so. Like, maybe on paper, yes, but I don't know if in practice, I don't know. I think that's how a lot of people would feel about it. You may hate that.

[Kyle Worley]

Well, here's the deal. If you're a Christian, I hope you share the gospel with every person around you.

[Jen Wilken]

Yes. Hallelujah.

[Kyle Worley]

If you haven't shared the gospel in some length of time, I would just encourage you or you to go for it. Bear witness to the work of Christ at every chance you get. Hey, thanks for listening to the show today, and we hope you enjoy the discussion. If you want to do theology and community with one another and wrestle with tricky topics and thorny questions in your local churches or small groups, and learn how to do it theologically, not politically, not culturally, not economically, but to really learn to lead with the Bible and doctrine. First, we encourage you to check out the Deep Discipleship program. It's [e-mail] and honestly, now is the time to begin thinking about a fall launch. Listen, I just want to tell you, the summer gets away from you. You're listening to this episode now. If you're thinking about your small group curriculum, or if you're thinking about what you're going to do on Wednesday night programming or Sunday morning, or you're wondering what your women's Bible study group is going to do because you've just burnt through another eight week study on identity and you're ready for depth, I would encourage you Check out the Deep Discipleship Program. We think theology is for everyone. Whether you're a nurse, an accountant, a teacher, a graduating senior, you're a freshman in college, you're a mechanical engineer, you're a garage operator, whatever the case might be, we think theology is for everyone. And we think the church is healthier when everybody moves from a consumer of theology to a contributor and a collaborator. That's why we built this program. So go check it [e-mail] deep discipleship thank you for listening to our podcast today. Don't forget to check out our webpage. Our sponsors through our webpage link and the show notes are [e-mail] under the Knowing Faith Podcast webpage. We hope you enjoyed the discussion. Grace and Peace.