Does God Endorse Violence?

Summary

Knowing Faith Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode: Does God Endorse Violence?
Date: April 2, 2026
Hosts: Kyle Worley, JT English, Jen Wilkin

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Episode Overview

This episode addresses the difficult theological question: "Does God endorse violence?" The hosts, Kyle, JT, and Jen, explore the biblical narratives, the definition and moral dimensions of violence, and how Christians today should think about holy war, just war theory, and the difference between Old Testament and New Testament paradigms. The discussion is rich and nuanced, aiming to cultivate discernment and biblical thinking in listeners rather than provide simple answers.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Defining Violence (03:26–09:07)

• Clarification of Terms: Jen pushes for a definition, noting that “violence” is often used with strong moral connotations, usually negative.
• Kyle's Working Definition: "Some sort of physical action against another person or persons that seeks to either restrain them, rebuff them, and may or may not involve causing them bodily harm." (03:54)
• Moral Nuance: Jen emphasizes violence can also be amoral (like a storm) or even positively moral, e.g., childbirth or God restraining evil. Violence in Scripture is often associated with wickedness, but context matters.

Notable Quote

• Jen Wilkin (08:56): “I would argue that childbirth is a pretty violent moment...so when you say, ‘is God violent?’ I’m trying to ask what definition are you [using].”

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Violence in the Bible – God's Role and Moral Dimensions (09:07–13:51)

• God’s Judgment vs. Wicked Violence: The hosts distinguish between wicked human violence (e.g., violence before the flood) and God's actions to restrain or eliminate evil, seen in biblical events like the flood, Canaanite conquest, and imprecatory Psalms.
• Creation–Decreation–Recreation Rhythm: Jen frames God’s violent acts as “decreation” followed by “recreation,” such as the flood or the conquest of Canaan (09:48).
• Moral Categories: Discussion centers on whether God’s violent acts are moral, amoral, or immoral. JT asserts that in Scripture, God’s commands for violence are morally good, even if violent.

Notable Quote

• Kyle Worley (07:18): “If violence is only wicked actions against another, like murder, then I think that you could say absolutely, unequivocally not, God does not endorse violence...If violence is understood more generally as restraint or rebuffing that which is evil or wicked...then I think that you can say, yeah, there are instances...”

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The Church and Violence Today (13:51–18:02)

• Application to Modern Church: Jen inquires if the church should perceive itself as a weapon of violence (13:51). All agree the New Testament does not commission the church to enact violent holy war.
• Militant Imagery vs. Actual Violence: The church should retain militant language (spiritual warfare), but not physical violence against opponents of God (14:19).
• Use of Imprecatory Psalms: Kyle affirms praying biblical prayers for God's judgment on evil, but distinguishes this from enacting violence.

Notable Quotes

• JT English (15:07): “If you’re hearing that [we endorse violence]—absolutely not. But I’m certainly not a pacifist.”
• Kyle Worley (16:47): "I can't think of a time in the New Testament that’s saying...where there is a command or an example provided of...enacting God's holy judgment against the wickedness of the world through violent means, individually or corporately."

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Just War Theory – When and How Christians May Resist Evil (18:02–22:16)

• Separation of Church and State: The church's role is distinct from that of governments; some situations (e.g., Christians being persecuted in Nigeria) may force ethical questions about self-defense and just war.
• Just War Criteria: JT outlines classical criteria—just cause, right intention, last resort, proportionality, legitimate authority (20:00).
• Context Matters: The American church is far from last resort scenarios; context (e.g., government abdication) may alter the ethical calculus.

Notable Quotes

• JT English (20:13): “If I’m a pastor in Nigeria...I can absolutely imagine a just war scenario where I...protect those under my care proportionately and...do so as a last resort for the purpose of pursuing peace in my community.”
• Kyle Worley (21:20): “I would not say that the church in America has reached a last resort position...we can meaningfully enact political, social, cultural, economic change against things that are unrighteous and wicked.”

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Distinctions Between Old and New Testament Holy War (22:16–25:08)

• Canaanite Conquest: Jen and JT discuss whether God’s commissioning of the Israelites was offensive or responsive war—concluding that it is unique, divinely commanded, and not a universal template for the church today.
• Revelation and Eschatological War: Jen ties this to the holy war in Revelation—the ultimate expression of God’s judgment and vindication, suggesting our current role is to pray, not enact, such wars now.
• Sanctification as Spiritual Warfare: Jen applies the concept—Christians today wage holy war against sin in themselves, not physical enemies.

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When Prayer Moves to Action—The Dangers of Religious Extremism (25:08–32:05)

• Motives and Context: Jen, with a cautionary note, points out that “one man’s holy war is another man’s terror act,” underlining the need for discernment about motives and actions.
• Absorbing Violence vs. Enacting Violence: JT references Stanley Hauerwas’s pacifist arguments (“The Peaceable Kingdom”), affirming that Christians should be peace-seeking and slow to violence, citing the cross as the ultimate example of absorbing violence (30:30).
• Just War as Last Resort: JT lands with Augustine and Aquinas, stating there are times (as a last resort) when violence to protect the vulnerable is justified.

Notable Quote

• JT English (31:20): “God’s people should be a people who forgive, who absorb wrath, who absorb violence. But...there is a time where those with strength, power, authority, and responsibility act justly to protect those under their care.”

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Final Summary and Resources (32:05–33:41)

Segment Summary (32:13–32:54)

• The hosts agree: The question, “Does God endorse violence?” is too simplistic; Biblical accounts of violence cannot be divorced from moral intention, context, and God’s holy purposes. Wisdom and discernment are critical.

Recommended Readings (33:23–33:41)

• For pacifist perspectives: Stanley Hauerwas, The Peaceable Kingdom
• For counterpoints: C.S. Lewis, Why I Am Not a Pacifist

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:26 – Defining violence
• 06:33 – Violence in Genesis and the nature of pride
• 09:48 – Creation/decreation cycle; God's decreative acts (flood, conquest)
• 13:51 – Should the church view itself as militant?
• 20:00 – Just war theory: criteria
• 25:08 – Christians in war: WWII France example; motives for action
• 30:30 – Hauerwas, pacifism, and absorbing violence
• 32:13 – Final concluding thoughts
• 33:23 – Book recommendations: Hauerwas and Lewis

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “God opposes the proud because the proud oppose God...we see his response not as violence meeting violence, but as a remedy for violence.” – Jen Wilkin (05:33)
• “ To say that God endorses violence is probably cluttered because of how we often understand the word violence itself, that we associate it with amoral connotations, even if there are moral expressions of the word.” – Kyle Worley (32:13)
• “God’s people ought to embody...being the people who absorb violence, not enact it...But sometimes the only way to move towards peace is through violence and a restraint of evil that requires war.” – JT English (31:20)

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Tone & Style

• Intellectual but accessible, with playful banter woven between deep theological discussion.
• Emphasis on biblical literacy, wisdom, and nuance.
• Hosts frequently challenge each other, clarify terms, and stress the importance of reading Scripture carefully and contextually.

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Key Takeaway

The question, “Does God endorse violence?” cannot be answered with a simple yes or no. In Scripture, God’s so-called “violent” acts are always directed toward restraining, rebuffing, or judging evil and are carried out with holy and righteous intent—distinct from the wanton or immoral violence of humanity. The church today is not called to wage physical holy war but to pursue peace, pray for justice, and, in rare and carefully discerned cases, support just actions to restrain evil via legitimate authority. Wisdom, context, and intention—rooted in a biblical understanding—are essential.

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Recommended for listeners seeking nuanced, biblically grounded conversations about faith, ethics, and challenging questions.

Transcript

[A]

This episode of Knowing faith is brought to you by Crossway, publisher of the Grace Laced Bible Journaling Edition. This Bible showcases the beauty of God's word alongside artist Ruth Chow Simon's signature watercolor art. Featuring 50 full page verse illustrations, 250 illustrated verses, and lined writing space in the margins, this elegant journaling Bible is ideal for personal reading and reflection, small group study, or taking notes during sermons. Pick up a copy of the ESV Grace laced Bible wherever books are sold or visit Crossway.org ESVGracelaced to learn how to get 30% off with a free Crossway plus account. Are you one of the millions of Christians searching for a path from anxiety to assurance? If so, Overflowing Peace by author and Bible teacher Tara Dew should be your next read. This verse by verse. Exploration of Psalm 23 reveals the complete, total and matchless peace only found while walking with our Good Shepherd. Perfect for personal reading, small group study, or as a gift for anyone longing for peace in turbulent times. Visit overflowingpeacebook.com to get your copy today. This is Kyle Worley and I'm joined by my co host Jen Wilkin and J.T. english. What's up? We have a long day of recording.

[B]

I'm looking forward to this. We get a full day together, guys. It's like old times.

[C]

Good hangs.

[A]

You know what, I really, I want to just clip that and I'll replay it for you at five o' clock today. So you know, we're here, you're here. We're glad that you're here. We're exploring another tricky question today. The question for today is does God endorse violence? You know, this season and last season we're looking at difficult, tricky, thorny questions and we're just trying to explore them biblically and theologically again. The goal of the podcast and the goal of kind of all of the work that we do isn't for you to download what we think about topic X, Y, or Z, but for you to learn how to think biblically and theologically about everything. And that's why we produce the Deep Discipleship Program. If you're interested in doing theology and community right where you're at, whether that's a small group, a class on Sunday morning or Wednesday night, homeschool co op, or your student ministry or young adult ministry, go check out the Deep Discipleship discipleship [e-mail] deep discipleship. Find out how you can get involved in solving the crisis of biblical and theological literacy wherever you're at. Okay guys, Does God endorse violence? Jen, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna start with you here.

[C]

No, I don't want to go first.

[A]

If you're gonna write Bible studies on Joshua, you've gotta be. You can't be writing. Jen, you just released the Bible study on Joshua. There's a lot. There's some violence in Joshua.

[C]

I don't mean to laugh. I'm also working on Judges, which also has violence.

[A]

All right, so you've had to think about this. Just get us going. It seems like if you're just doing a casual reading of Joshua and Judges, it certainly seems like God is commanding violence or endorsing violence. Is that accurate? Am I missing something? Are we missing something? Is that too simplistic?

[C]

Well, I think, you know, it's too simplistic, but I think before we get into the discussion, it would probably be good to ask what you mean by violence.

[A]

Great, now we're, now we're cooking. Let's try to get a definition of violence.

[C]

I mean, it may seem like that's a self evident thing, but violence can be a word that's used in sort of a weaponized way. You know, like it, it could be. Is that the right word? I guess is what I'm, I'm asking.

[A]

That's great.

[C]

Bouncing it back to you guys. See how I did that right there?

[A]

Yeah. Violence would be some sort of physical, spiritual or emotional. I think we think mostly physical. We'll start with, we'll stay with physical. I think that's the context for this. Some sort of physical action against another person or persons that seeks to either restrain them, rebuff them, and may or may not involve cause, causing them bodily harm. Okay, I'm going to try, I'm going to try that on.

[B]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[A]

Restraint, rebuff, and may or may not cause them bodily harm. That's pretty philosophical, but I think that works.

[C]

Okay, so now I think we can ask, where does the Bible talk about violence? And one of the places that I think comes to mind the easiest would be Psalm 11:5, where we hear that the Lord hates the violent man. Then one of the other things that we see in Genesis chapter six before the flood is that violence is what characterizes humanity before God's judgment is meted out on them. And it's a violence of a particular kind. Like what happens after Genesis chapter three is that everything God has said would be the consequence begins to play out. Genesis 3 is at its root a sin of pride. Right. It's saying, I am Going to sit in the seat of God, I'm going to do things my way. And so then I think of the passage that says, and it's referenced in the Epistle of James, and it says, God opposes the proud, but he exalts the humble. And when we think about God opposing the proud, that can sound like God is the aggressor in that relationship. And when we see, like the action that takes place in the books of Joshua and Judges, for example, it can feel like God is the aggressor. But why does God oppose the proud? We've talked about this before. God opposes the proud because the proud oppose God. And so when we see God respond to prideful actions which terminate in violence, which ultimately they always will, I think. And that's what we see when we hear about the sins of the Canaanites and the sins of Egypt, then we can see his response not as violence meeting violence, but as a remedy for violence.

[A]

I think that we're heading in the right direction here, because when we look, and I think that sometimes, depending on what, when you hear, does God endorse violence? You might immediately say no, because in your mind, violence is only associated with wicked expressions of it. It. But there are other. If violence is taken to mean only wicked actions against another, like murder, then I think that you could say absolutely, unequivocally not. God does not endorse violence. God doesn't do any violent acts. If violence is understood more generally as restraint or rebuffing that which is evil or wicked, which I think would be within the contours of what we might talk about just violence, and we'll get to this in a moment, or judgment, then I think that you can say, yeah, there are instances in which God's holy restraint of evil or wickedness or his holy judgment of evil or wickedness will involve things we might often associate with impure or wicked violence, meaning restraint or rebuffing. Like, think about how the psalmist praise in Psalm 58. It's an impregatory psalm. God shatter the teeth of the wicked. Like the psalmist prays, asking God to break the teeth of the violent and wicked. Psalmist praise in Psalm 3, God smite my enemies, right? It talks about in Isaiah 53, that God pours out his judgment upon the Son of God, the suffering servant, with chastisement and wounds, right? That God crushes the Son. So it's not that God never moves in what we might call restraining judgment or rebuffing judgment or even holy wrathful judgment. He does those things. And I think in Joshua and Judges, you see God commanding his people to exercise his holy judgment against wicked nations.

[C]

And so I think in a way that you would characterize as violent. I think. I think I'm taking issue with the. I think we have to say is the. And I'm. I'm gonna kind of poking at you a little bit because. Chose the title of the episode. But, like, the word violent can have a moral connotation or it can have an amoral connotation. So, like, I would argue that childbirth is a pretty violent moment.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[C]

You know what I'm saying? And so I think that's what I'm trying to get to here, is when you say, is God violent? I'm trying to ask what. What definition are you.

[A]

I think we can say that God exercises his sovereign powers to push back and destroy the power and presence of unrighteousness and wickedness and to restrain the unfettered actions of those forces in the world.

[C]

And I would say that if we are going to assign the word violent to that, that we are taking a word that. That is used in the scripture with a moral freight assigned only to the wicked. And we're saying we're using this in a different way to describe what God is doing. We're using it in a morally neutral way to describe what God is doing, or even in a morally positive way. Because if you like, as an act of. Here's an. Here's a bigger framework for it.

[A]

Right.

[C]

The rhythm of the first five books of the Bible and beyond is we see creation narratives and decreation narratives. Creation narratives, decreation narratives. So the flood is a good example of this. You have the creation narrative of Genesis 1, and then the decreation narrative of the flood, and then the recreation narrative that happens after the flood. And so when God invokes de creation, which is, in a sense, what he's doing when the Canaanite conquest happens, he's decreating so that he can recreate. There is a form of violence associated with that. A flood is a violent act upon the face of the earth. Right. But is it violent in a negative sense? Do you see what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah. And I definitely don't want to attribute to God anything that's evil, wicked, or unrighteous.

[C]

That's good. I'm glad to know that since I'm partnered with you in many ways.

[A]

Jt, jump in here. Where. Where are we stuck? Because I think that I. I think I want to. I want to be able to say God's holy judgment is enacted in what we perceive as visceral ways or visceral ways that are pretty dramatic and that he calls his people, particularly in Joshua and Judges, but in other places, to exercise a kind of judgment that they won't execute perfectly, but that he has commanded to them perfectly for the. Of pushing back or restraining evil.

[B]

Yeah, I think one of the questions I had for you kind of thinking about this in moral or amoral categories, Jen, is because I understand what you mean. There's violent things that happen, childbirth, which we would call a visceral moment, even just death. Death from what we call, quote, unquote, natural causes, could be in some sense a violent thing and maybe not a moral thing. But Jen, would you say when God, I mean, so God clearly commands his people to actively take up arms against evildoer and evildoers and wickedness over the course of Scripture, Even Romans, chapter 13, not talking to God's people, talking to governing civil authorities, saying there is a time for them to pick up the sword. Ecclesiastes, chapter three. There's a time to kill and a time to give life. So the Bible's saying there is a time for this. But I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I want to clarify, when God does that, is it amoral or is it moral?

[C]

No, that's what I was trying to bring that in, is that I think there is a moral expression of a visceral response that might. That the word. We might assign the word violent too. But I guess what I'm getting at is that when we hear violence in our current moment, we only hear a negative moral connotation to it.

[B]

I see, so. So you're saying we shouldn't. And we shouldn't hear an amoral connotation. You could actually hear a morally good connotation.

[C]

Yes, I think there are. I think there are amoral expressions of what would be termed a violent moment. So like a storm.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

You know, it doesn't have a moral component to it, but it can be. You can have a violent storm. I think in the case of God, God doesn't do all moral things, and so anything he does is a positive exception expression, but it's the term, I think that is. And I'm not going to say that Clickbait Worley used that term on purpose, but I do think it's important for us to deal with the baggage that the word violence is going to conjure in the minds of the listener.

[B]

So we're just to kind of clarify, we would all say. I'm not sure if we'll get to disagreement here, but where we're all saying,

[C]

let's try hard though, let's try.

[B]

Well, we'll get, we can, I mean, we can do this. There's no.

[C]

We'll find out, disagree in our sleep.

[B]

God is perfectly good. He's sovereign and over all things. There are times in history where he ordains and calls and mandates or reveals to his people that they should go to war against evildoers in wickedness. And that war would be a violent war and would involve death, destruction, chaos. And we're saying that is a good thing.

[C]

Yeah. Can I ask a follow up question? Should the modern day church then perceive itself to be a weapon of violence?

[A]

Oh, I think, oh no, they shouldn't perceive themselves as a weapon of violence. They should perceive themselves using the militant imagery that the Bible itself uses to talk about God's people.

[C]

In what way? Should we go strike down our neighbor in cold blood?

[A]

No.

[C]

Should we do what was done in the Old Testament? Because people have.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

Well, I mean, should we do what's said in the Old Testament? Again, it depends on the category because the answer can't be no. Right. Jesus comes to fulfill the law and there's. We want. We just did an episode on the Ten Commandments. We are called to do it. Right.

[C]

So. So we should physically destroy those opposed to the works of God.

[B]

Of course, this. Now see here, we're getting to that moment.

[C]

The moment is upon us.

[B]

I mean, we want to be real careful here because the answer, like what you should.

[C]

Oh, let's not be careful, jt.

[B]

Yeah. Is hear this podcast and think knowing faith endorses violence. If you're hearing that. Absolutely not. But I'm certainly not a pacifist.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, I just wanted to be. I wanted to get there fast.

[C]

I'm talking about. But let me just clarify. I'm talking about the church because I, I mean, I have a son in the military. I'm a son in law in the military. I'm not.

[B]

Correct. Yes.

[C]

I understand that governments wage wars and people are going to have mixed feelings about that. I'm speaking of the church. Should we think in violent terms as it relates to those who oppose the Lord?

[A]

I think we should. I think we should be bold enough to pray the same prayers that the psalmist prayed about those who seek to do evil. Some of those prayers are prayers that, that invoke God's judgment on those who wantonly and unrepentantly do evil, particularly at harm to the righteous. I think that we should. I think the Psalms are a prayer book and we can pray those Psalms. I do think the battle dynamics change between the Old and New Testament. It certainly I can't think of a New Testament example where we are commissioned or an example is provided for us to go and do like what you might like to enact holy judgment that might take violent expression against unbelievers. So I can't think of a time in the New Testament that's saying post kingdom fulfillment of the law, post resurrection where there is a command or an example provided of doing or enacting God's holy judgment against the wickedness of the world through violent means, individually or corporately.

[C]

Holy war.

[A]

Holy war. I can't think of a time can I imagine a just war? Yes, I can imagine a just war.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Can I imagine a church driven holy war? Not with the New Testament imagination.

[B]

So let me ask a question there because this gets into some very complex contextualized situations where we live in 2026 and under the political framework that you and I have the privilege of operating is, and we've already kind of had to have conversations around this this season, is there's a very clear distinction between church and state and what the role of the state is and what the role of the church is, what religious liberty is in those situations. Not all Christians in all times and all places have that. There are Christians in Nigeria, for example, being slaughtered whose government will not help them because the government is part and parcel in actually slaughtering them. Do Christians or does the church have a responsibility, obligation or moral prerogative to engage in just war, to restrain evil? Yes.

[C]

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[A]

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[B]

And yeah, so we've used the word like just war theory a little bit. Like, here are some of the things that just war theory entail. There needs to be a just cause. This isn't just we're picking up arms for the sake of picking up arms. There needs to be some kind of a right intention. And by that they mean like Augustine or Aquinas would say, the goal of the church isn't conquest, but peace. We're protecting ourselves for the sake of peace. Needs to be a last resort. We need to have pursuit every other means possible before we pick up arms. Proportionality in terms of response to violence coming at the church or a government, there needs to be a proportional response. You guys remember that West Wing episode? What's the virtue of a proportional response? Jed Bartlett, one of my favorite episodes. And they need to have legitimate authority. That's. That's one of the questions here is what kind of authority does the church have? I mean, so for example, if you're. I can. I think I was just kind of picking up on what you were saying there, Kyle. If I can imagine, if I'm a pastor in Nigeria and there are hordes outside of my church seeking to maim, kill, and destroy the sheep that are under my purview, I can absolutely imagine a just war scenario where I am going to pursue peace. I'm going to push back against violence. I'm going to try to protect those under my care proportionately and also to do so as a last resort for the purpose of pursuing peace in my community.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Is it. Go ahead.

[A]

No, I was. I was going to say, I think the last resort piece is a component that is contextual to the society that you live in. Like, I would not say that the church in America has reached a last resort position on its opportunities to meaningfully enact political, social, cultural, economic change against things that are unrighteous and wicked. I can, given what is happening present day in Nigeria right now, if the government has abdicated its responsibility to restrain evil, then I do think, okay, now we're talking about both household and the household of God's responsibility to try to do what the government has abdicated its role in doing. That I can imagine in the same way that like, if, you know that if the government said we're no longer protecting homes and home invasions, we're not responding to any home invasion calls, I go, well, that would definitely change the calculus on what the responsibility of Christian individuals are as a kid as it pertains to protecting homes and households.

[C]

So I think this is a good conversation. I think the, the example that's been given is not analogous to what we see in the Canaanite conquest. The Canaanite conquest is, is an example of initiating war. And so I think I actually want

[B]

to, I want to talk about this. Jen, you think that's the case?

[C]

Well, like I said, I think it's God responding to evil. So. But he's, he is commissioning his children to go in and wage war. Like they, they show up on the doorstep of, of walls fall down. Jericho, Sorry, I need another cup of coffee. Jericho wasn't like spoiling for a fight. You see what I'm saying? Like the, the action is initiated by Yahweh and, and so, but either way, let's, let's set that aside. Maybe you agree with that, maybe you don't. When I hear, you know, what Kyle was saying, I hear a couple of things that come to mind. And when, when I say what Kyle is saying, I'm talking about, like he said, I don't know that you can trans translate that Old Testament paradigm onto the New Testament in a literal sense. Like, it's not prescriptive, it's descriptive. But then what's the underlying principle that I would say is where I would land is like. And I don't pretend to understand every nuance of the conversation, like to see you just whip out all of the main points of just war theory, jt, without visibly having googled it is amazing to me. I'm like, he's thought about this a lot more than I have. You've got, you thought about this a lot more than I have. So that being said, I Think about revelation, as I often do, which is the ultimate holy war against the cosmos that has turned against its creator. If that were a summary statement for the book, I'd probably land there. And I laugh because, like, you know, when Kyle talks about the imprecatory prayers and I think we should pray them, I agree. And it's funny to me that. Not funny. It's funny that we sing songs about incense rising, you know, like. Like it's this wonderful positive thing, but it's portrayed in imprecatory prayer context. Like the incense that goes up before the Lord and the prayers of the saints is the prayer of the martyrs asking to be vindicated. And I just don't think that's what we always have in view. So it makes me laugh a little that, you know, we've turned it into this light, fuzzy moment. And so what I perceive the New Testament Church's role to be is to pray those, to say, to long for the second coming of Christ when the holy war of the cosmos will begin, so that all things can be made new. Do you think that's over spiritualizing something?

[A]

I think. Let me just push on it a little bit.

[C]

Wait. I also think it has to do with sanctification. I think I've said that a lot like, that we're waging holy war against sin in our heart. So that too.

[A]

And I'm for waging holy war against sin and hearts. And I am. I do believe that the final judgment eschatologically is the only time in which things will be perfectly executed for good forever. I believe those things. I think that if I am a member of. If I'm a confessing Christian in France or Austria in 1941 or 42, and I'm invited to consider that maybe it's a proper Christian response that to go blow up some bridges.

[C]

Right.

[A]

You know, or to, you know, taint some water supplies that I think that, to me, seems like I could see a Christian account that says, yeah, that's a good thing to do. Like, that's a good thing to do to get in the game. And I don't think that. I think I could look back and I don't think I'd have a problem looking at that, saying, you know what? This is biblically faithful to engage in this kind of social action. And not only is it, like, permissible, it might be. The most Christian thing I could do would be to say this is wrong. Like, in the same way that, like, you know, I. I think there are a lot of things that Christians should not do. But I never. I'm never burdened when I find out or discover that a Christian has taken meaningful action to try to restrain evil. If the evil that is happening is a clear wicked, evil thing, particularly as it pertains to image bearers. I'm not burdened when they say, you know what? We're going to try to do everything possible to restrain the exercising of that evil. And as long as they don't broker other, as long as they don't engage in unrighteousness themselves. And so I think I'm okay looking at the imprecatory psalms and saying, yeah, their perfect fulfillment is at the end of the end. I believe that. I'm also okay realizing that when David prayed them, he was probably hanging his hat on eschatological judgment as well. It wasn't like he was unfamiliar with the promises of Yahweh to bring judgment upon the nations. And yet there was still a very real wicked enemy like that. David felt confident telling God, I'd really like for that wicked enemy to be,

[C]

yeah, I'm not trying to remove those kinds of prayers. But of course, when prayer moves to action or when we shift from prayer to action, I think is when the problem arises. Because here's a terrible quote to really muddy the waters here at the end. It's often said one man's holy war is another man's terror act. And so how do we. And because motive is what distinguishes those two things, and because context is what distinguishes those two things from each other. It is, I think, that religious extremism is a very real threat in a. Particularly in a rampantly, biblically and theologically illiterate age within the church itself. And so how do you deal with that?

[B]

I mean, isn't it what you said, intention and wisdom?

[C]

Yes, but I think, you know, one of the other things that doesn't really translate from the Old Testament to our current moment is that what God is patterning is a corporate act. I don't know. I'm having a hard time, you know what I'm saying? Like, so you don't want vigilante justice, but at the same. And it has to do. I think it also has to do with the underdog. The underdog element, right? Like Corrie 10 boom. You know, people hiding people during the. The Nazi invasion, all those kinds of things. Those make a lot of sense. It's these other. It's these other situations. Like, do you know that Hamas is the Hebrew word for violence? So, like, how do. Whose violence is the Violence that is rightly motivated.

[B]

But I think that's. You're right to, I think, make that the point, because is there violence that is wrongly motivated? Are there wars that have been wrongly motivated? Absolutely. That's why we believe in just crusade war. Right. Well, you should rewrite. I just recently read Rodney Stark on the Crusades. I got some hot takes there. Oh, yeah, Sociologist from Baylor. We just would say that they've largely been misinterpreted over the course of history and they were in large part just wars according to him. Now, that being said, I think when I went to seminary, I read a book. Oh, gosh, what was the name of the book, Kyle? You might. You might remember Stanley Hauerwas. Oh, gosh, I'll think of it here in a second. It's one of the most famous kind of pacifistic, kind of philosophical takes on Christian worldview. Are you looking it up, Kyle?

[A]

I am. I got you. Keep going.

[B]

Okay. And it was. It was deeply impactful for me, for somebody who hadn't been in the church, who hadn't been disciples.

[A]

The peaceful kingdom.

[B]

Yes, this is it. And it was a great book. And in terms of like, shaping and forming my early years, and it almost made me a pacifist. I could. It was like, wow. The narrative of pacifism is God absorbs violence. God doesn't enact violence. The cross is the ultimate picture of. Of God absorbing violence into the world. And therefore God's people, God's church, should be the people who absorb violence, not enact violence. And, and I want to just say there is a sense in which there is wisdom and justice in that, that God's people should be a people who forgive, who absorb wrath, who absorb violence. But I think where just war theory does get it right, and what makes me not a pacifist is it does need to be a last resort. And there is a time where those who have been given strength, power, authority and responsibility act justly to protect those people under their care. That could be a family, that could be a church, that could be a nation, that could be a community and a people. So where I have kind of landed is I like some of the instincts of absorbing violence because I do think there are some pictures of that in the cross that God's people ought to embody. We shouldn't be reflexive, we shouldn't be quick to act trigger happy people. We should be people who seek peace above everything else. And so when somebody comes at us with violence, we don't want to be the first to respond with violence. However, where I would land with Augustine and Aquinas and kind of the Western Christian just war theory is sometimes you get to a point where the only way to move towards peace is through violence and a restraint of evil that requires war.

[A]

All right, so we can probably say that my title was too clickbaity that to say yes or no, does God endorse violence? A surprise. Surprise nobody.

[C]

What?

[A]

Nobody is shocked by that. But to say that God endorses violence is probably cluttered because of how we often understand the word violence itself, that we associate it with amoral connotations, even if there are moral expressions of the word. That God's holy judgment is enacted through his people and under his sovereignty over the course of the history of the world and will continue to be until the great forever judgment, which where evil is condemned for good forever. And that Christians discerning what are healthy holy or righteous expressions of God's judgment, either mediated through his sovereign intervention in the world or his sovereign orchestration of personal and created forces in the world, is a complex thing that requires a tremendous amount of wisdom and discernment, particularly with regard to the intentions of the human heart. That's my headline summary.

[C]

That was really good, Kyle.

[A]

You know, I do, I do.

[B]

I would go to war for you guys.

[A]

Oh, you know what that means? A time.

[C]

Hey, I learned. I learned during this episode. So this was an interesting conversation to me.

[A]

JT talked about the Hauer Voss book. Listen, you know, I always want to make sure that we can couple the point with counterpoint. Howard Voss's book.

[B]

Yeah, I was clear that I don't agree with Howard.

[A]

No, you were clear.

[B]

I'm just telling the audience I didn't like, endorse it. I just said I was almost convinced by it.

[A]

But if you do want a great counterpoint to Howard Voss's book, go read C.S. lewis's essay against pacifism or why I'm Not a Pacifist.

[B]

I've read this.

[A]

Nobody expects Louis to be. Everybody reads Narnia and they're like, man, this guy's really so sweet. Like, I bet he's a. But Lewis wasn't. And so if you're going to go check out Howard Voss and his stuff, go read some good counterpoint stuff. And Lewis on why I'm not a pacifist would be really worth your time. And it's just superbly written, so you'll enjoy reading it even if you don't enjoy his argument. We hope you enjoyed the discussion today. Listen, if you want to do this kind of thing, not just be a listener, but be a contributor and a collaborator in the conversation. You can do that. Go to lifeway.com deepdiscipleship and you and your friends can explore all of the Bible and doctrine together and ask yourselves, hmm, is it possible that there is such a thing as a just war? How does holy violence happen? Is there holy violence? You can do this. We actually believe in you. That's why we're building these things. That's why we record these podcasts. So we hope that you enjoyed the discussion. Go participate in the conversation. Grace and peace.