Is Church Discipline Biblical?

Summary

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Knowing Faith Podcast Summary

Episode: "Is Church Discipline Biblical?"

Hosts: Kyle Worley, JT English, Jen Wilkin
Date: March 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the Knowing Faith team explores the biblical roots, theology, and practical realities of church discipline. Drawing from personal experience and key biblical passages, the hosts tackle questions of why church discipline exists, how it should be practiced, and what challenges arise across different church traditions. They particularly focus on 1 Corinthians 5 and Hebrews 12, aiming to provide listeners with both scriptural clarity and practical insight for fostering church health with humility and care.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Discipline in Biblical Context

• Discipline as a Biblical Concept

  • Kyle introduces the topic drawing from Hebrews 12 (05:51), emphasizing that discipline is rooted in God's love for his children. The goal: conformity to Christ.
  • Jen notes the parental metaphor, highlighting both the long-term aim (self-control, others-focus) and the challenge of applying discipline among adults, not children (08:32).

• Contextual Experience

  • Jen and JT reflect on their initial exposure to church discipline. Both did not encounter formal processes until later in their journeys (11:16). Jen describes her initial sense of "fuzziness" about what church discipline really is or should be (10:28).
  • Discussion of how churches, notably in lower-structure traditions, often handle discipline only in reaction to crises rather than through an established, biblical framework (11:52).

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2. The Scriptural Foundation: 1 Corinthians 5

[13:42 – 19:27]

• Paul's Model:

  • Kyle walks through 1 Corinthians 5, where the Apostle Paul calls for removing an unrepentant church member engaged in gross public sin (16:03–19:27).
    • Key Quote (18:29):
      “Paul is saying, hey, in the assembly, something should be said that tells everybody what this guy's doing is not right. … He needs to be removed from you. … The principal place that they're being removed from is the table fellowship of the Lord.” — Kyle

• Public, Persistent, Unrepentant Sin

  • The biblical logic is:
    • Sin is public and egregious
    • The church is called to act for both the sake of the individual’s restoration and the body’s witness
    • Removal is, primarily, exclusion from the Lord’s Supper (communion), not a ban from community presence

• Restoration as the Goal

  • Repeatedly, the hosts emphasize that the objective is restorative—not punitive (27:13, 39:33).

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3. Membership, Method, and Pitfalls

[19:43 – 24:13]

• Church Membership Matters

  • JT: “You can't be removed from something unless you're a part of something. … Your Christian life is largely meant to be done in the context of community.” (20:01)
  • Membership provides the framework for discipline to have both meaning and context.

• Gentleness Over Zeal

  • JT warns against “zealous” or reactionary approaches, describing churches that, after “reading a blog,” rush to discipline with harmful results (21:36).
  • Both ignoring church discipline and weaponizing it are seen as dangerous ditches.

• Process Over Event

  • The hosts advocate a slow, gentle, and prayerful process, beginning with encouragement and correction, not leaping straight to removal (25:02).
    • Quote (25:14, paraphrased):
      "Only after encouragement, exhortation, and correction does discipline have its place."

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4. Church Structures: High vs. Low Ecclesiology

[27:42 – 36:47]

• Structure Shapes Practice

  • Jen contrasts “high church” (more formal, external structures) and “low church” (localized, autonomous, typically Baptist congregations) approaches (28:15–29:09).
  • The local context brings both “pluses and minuses”—close relationships may foster care but can also limit objectivity (31:56).
  • Larger churches risk reducing member affirmation to “a rubber stamp” due to scale (31:51).

• External Authority—Pros and Cons

  • High church models (Presbyterian, Episcopal, Catholic) use external review to establish objectivity, inspired by Paul’s “outsider authority” in Corinthians (29:22–29:56).
  • Local church autonomy (Baptist tradition) offers relational proximity but with potential blind spots.

• Two Tensions to Hold

  • Jen: “Healthy church discipline holds two things in tension: care for the individual and care for the church. … When it goes sideways, it's usually because one outweighs the other.” (32:18)

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5. Excommunication: Theology and Practice

[36:24 – 39:33]

• Terminology Matters

  • Kyle: The term “excommunication” (removal from communion) is closer to the biblical idea than the broad label of “church discipline” (36:24).
    • Quote (37:52):
      “You’re not enacting a legal force of documentation against a person. What you’re telling them is, we don’t want you to eat and drink judgment upon yourself because we believe you’re deceived.”
  • This is aimed at clarity: the “bar” is not attendance, but participation in the Lord’s Supper.

• Restoration is Ultimate Aim

  • JT and Kyle: Excommunication is not the desired end. It follows appeals, correction, encouragement, and is always for the sake of potential restoration.

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6. Practical Wisdom & Cautions

[40:13 – 41:04]

• A Biblical Mandate, Not Always Well Practiced

  • JT: “Churches must have a mechanism for calling people to holiness... and must slowly, gently, tearfully, prayerfully engage in calling people towards godliness and holiness with the hopes that they’ll respond in the power of the Spirit and move towards Christ.” (40:13)

• Potential for Harm

  • Jen: “It makes me super nervous in the hands of the wrong person.” (40:54)

• Final Reflection

  • Kyle: “Discipline should be marked by shepherding, not warrior ministry.” (41:04)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “For the moment, all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant. But later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.” — Kyle, quoting Hebrews (06:17)
• “Good discipline has a long-term goal in mind, but most parents have a very short-term goal in mind when they are trying to correct a child.” — Jen (07:54)
• “You can't be removed from something unless you're a part of something.” — JT (20:01)
• “We don’t want to fall in either ditch. To fall into the ditch of no church discipline… or to be so zealous to participate that you lose your brother or sister.” — JT (22:15)
• “Healthy church discipline holds two things in tension: care for the individual and care for the organization or the church.” — Jen (32:18)
• “The goal of discipline isn’t to remove somebody. The goal is to restore somebody.” — Kyle (27:20)
• “The goal of church discipline isn’t excommunication. … The goal is restoration.” — JT (38:42)
• “Discipline should be marked by shepherding, not warrior ministry.” — Kyle (41:04)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 05:51 – Kyle reads and applies Hebrews 12 to discipline
• 08:32 – Jen on parental discipline metaphors vs. church context
• 16:03–19:27 – Kyle’s walkthrough of 1 Corinthians 5 (the key text)
• 20:01 – JT explains necessity of church membership
• 21:36–22:15 – JT warns against zealous, hasty, or harsh discipline
• 25:02–25:14 – Steps before discipline: encouragement, exhortation, correction
• 28:15–31:56 – High vs. low church structures and discipline
• 36:24–37:52 – Excommunication & practical implications
• 40:13–41:04 – Final biblical charge, caution, and call to gentle shepherding

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Conclusion

The hosts affirm that church discipline is biblically mandated, with 1 Corinthians 5 and Hebrews 12 laying the theological foundation. Across traditions, it should be exercised slowly, cautiously, and with the aim of restoration, not removal. Healthy church discipline keeps restoration and the church’s witness in balance and is best practiced in the context of trustworthy, humble church leadership—“marked by shepherding, not warrior ministry.”

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Transcript

[A]

This episode of Knowing Faith is brought to you by Crossway, publisher of Stand in All How Reverence Transforms Our Worship and Our Lives Laura's story seeks to lead Christians in scriptural reverential worship all seven days of the week. Sharing her 20 years of experience as a worship leader and award winning recording artist, she clarifies what worship is and what it isn't and what's at stake without it. Pick up a copy of Stand in all wherever books are sold or visit crossway.orginall to learn how to get 30% off with a free Crossway plus account. You ever listen to an episode of Knowing Faith and think, my goodness, I'd like to do this in person somewhere? Well, you are in luck. Our friend and co host Jen Wilkin has a series of events coming up. These are Bible teaching events at six different locations in the us. They are called in the Word with Jen Wilken. Worship is Provided by Sandra McCracken and what you can expect is in depth teaching and study of the Lord's Prayer. So you're going to learn not just how to pray, but why we pray. These events include worship time for community scripture study and prayer. These are at six events over the course of the next year. If you want to go hang out with Jen and study the Lord's Prayer and have some wonderful worship led by Sandra McCracken, go to lifeway.com in the word again that's lifeway.com intheword they are coming to your area so go check it [e-mail] in the word and hang out studying the Lord's Prayer with our friend and co host Jen Wilkin. Go check it out. What does it mean to follow Jesus when it cost everything? In May 2024, the world saw headlines out of Haiti. Davey and Natalie Lloyd and their friend Jude were killed while serving as missionaries. Three believers who gave their lives in faithful obedience to Christ. Strong to the End shares the story of their lives marked by quiet faith, steadfast trust and a love for others that endured even in danger. Written by Davey's parents, David and Elisa Lloyd with Dean Merrill, this account invites us to trust Christ and count the cost. Let their faith strengthen yours. Order your copy of Strong to the End today wherever you find your books. This is Kyle Worley and I'm joined by my co host Jen Wilkin and J.T. english. What's up J.T. english, not J.T. spanish, not J.T. french, no not J.T. german, not J.T. pig Latin but J.T. english.

[B]

It was like I heard that for the first time in second grade. And like, my name, like, hit for the first time. I was like, it's just English. And I was like, oh, my gosh, my name's a language.

[A]

And Jen, you. Your undergraduate is in. What is it? Wow. You have a college degree in jt? In jt. I think all. I think. I think both of us now have at leave Master's degrees. 60 hour Master's degrees in JT. We don't have PhDs yet.

[B]

But how could you. It's just inexhaustible.

[C]

Will, did people make fun of your name when you were a kid?

[A]

Jt?

[B]

It wasn't like, make fun, but it was like that. Like, oh, jt, Spanish, that kind of thing.

[C]

What's yours? Kyle?

[A]

Did people make fun of Swirly Whirly?

[C]

Swirly Whirly. Do you know for most of the time that I knew you well, when I knew you early on, I thought your name was Worley.

[A]

Yeah, no, you said it like that for, like, the first.

[C]

I know. Why didn't you say something to me?

[A]

I was intimidated by. No, I mean, you were like our editor. You again, for the audience who's maybe come along since we've told this story. Jin was the editor, and I was like, young guy writing. Back when everybody. Nobody had newsletters and everybody wrote blogs, and I wrote blogs for the village, and Jen would like. I never saw her, but I got emails. I would get emails back and forth and my blogs would be very marked up. I mean, or she would say things like, nobody cares about this topic. So, you know. Yeah, she was just somebody who mispronounced my name and edited my blog articles.

[C]

Yep. Sorry about that. The second part. The first part, not the second part.

[A]

Okay, fair enough. You stand by every edit you ever

[C]

made to your stuff? Yeah, I do.

[A]

Fair enough. Okay, well, today we are talking about church discipline. And the reason we're talking about church discipline is because we want you to learn how to think biblically and theologically about everything. That's why we do these podcasts. That's why we write the books we write. It's why we produce the resources we produce. And we want churches to be able to do this. We think that churches can produce cultures of deep discipleship and not just consumption. And if you're interested in building a deep discipleship philosophy for your church, you should go to trainthechurch.com and click on the tab that says Ministry Cohort. We have an online class. This is for ministry leaders, people who are leading in their churches, leading in their Ministries who are looking to take the principles of deep discipleship and contextualize them for their local church. So go check out that course. It's available online, it is self paced. You can go at your own pace with your leadership team. And then you'll be invited to alumni calls where will answer your questions that are more specific. So go check that [e-mail] today we are asking the question, is church discipline biblical? Biblical. Now, when we talk about anything related to discipline, very few people like discipline. Just generally.

[B]

I like.

[A]

Huh?

[C]

You like being disciplined by someone or you like discipline as practice?

[B]

I like discipline as a practice.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I like disciplining myself.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Very rarely do people like to receive discipline from somebody else. And the writer of Hebrews knows this. I was thinking about this as we were starting. Just, I think a good place to start is just like, what does the Bible say about discipline generally? And there's a lot of places that address discipline. But I kept thinking about Hebrews, Hebrews chapter 12 and I want to read a portion of it just to kind of, I don't know, help us remember that discipline is challenging. It's challenging to be disciplined. This is what it says in Hebrews chapter 12, beginning in verse 5. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves and chastises every son whom he receives. It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom His Father does not discipline? And if you are left without discipline in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live for they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good that we may share his holiness. Lastly, for the moment, all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant. But later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. That's a very countercultural approach to thinking through discipline, isn't it?

[B]

What do you mean countercultural? I don't know that it is.

[A]

You don't know?

[C]

I really hope that Brad doesn't edit

[A]

out that super long cause you just left me hanging there, guys.

[B]

Well, you said that's countercultural. I don't know what you mean by that.

[A]

I mean, I don't think that There is a general sense among people of any age and place that wants to be corrected. They, everybody kind of wants to do what's right in their own eyes. Right. I mean, generally people want to do what is right in their own eyes. I think, I think we have. Yeah.

[C]

I mean we recognize the value of discipline. We just don't want it. And we want it. We want it to be as minimal as possible, as infrequent as possible. And I think also like, just based on like the, the metaphor, you know, so we're talking about like actual parents disciplining actual children. There's real breakdown in just parental understanding of the purpose and way that discipline function. The purpose of discipline and the way that it functions. Good discipline has a long term goal in mind, but most parents have a very short term goal in mind when they are trying to correct a child.

[A]

What's the good, what's the long term goal in mind? When you think about parental discipline, Just

[C]

using medicine that a child would grow to be, to have self control and to be others focused on, that'd be like a really simple way I would say it.

[A]

So part of what validates whether or not discipline is rightly exercised is if it has the right goal in mind.

[C]

Yes. And that, you know, and so like discipline is going to require repeat applications. So it requires steadfastness on the part of the parent and as well as the child. And so. Yeah. And I think really, I know we're going to get into the whole like, is church discipline a thing? And it's funny because I come from a tradition, I guess. Oh, I come from many traditions, as I pointed out a lot of times. But like spend a lot of time in the Methodist church, spent a lot of time in like typical SBC churches. And it wasn't until I came to the village, honestly, that I had heard anything about the idea of church discipline. It was not a feature of the churches that I was in up until that point. And so like now I sit here and I think, okay, well from the family metaphor, which I love for the, for the church, the church is the family of God. It makes sense that there would be some disciplinary function. But also church members are not children. Right. They're adults. And so what does that look like? And then there are different ways to discipline. There are ways that are more natural and logical consequences versus just a consequence that the parent chooses to impose on a child. And so how does that apply to how we think about church discipline? But I have to say that even after all of these years, of being in churches where church discipline was a feature. I still feel fuzzy

[A]

about what it is or how it should be practice or whether or not it's to be practiced at. Okay, all of it. So all of the above.

[C]

Yeah, I think all of the above, yeah.

[A]

When we think about.

[C]

Just easy for me to say too because I'm not an elder. I'm not, you know, I'm not that I'm not an elder pastor. I'm never going to be. And so it's not, it has not had to be such a top of mind question for me beyond the way that it impacts in particular in my case women, you know, in the church, which I feel very protective of. Sick, go ahead. I interrupted you, jt.

[A]

Was discipline something that you like, church discipline? Was it something that you were familiarized with through seminary or through life in local church or both? Like when did you first come across like the idea. I know you came to Faith in college and so it probably wasn't a part of like Discipleship 101, was it?

[B]

No.

[A]

For you?

[B]

No, no.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It wasn't something till honestly, till later I think I learned about it a little bit, my master's degree. But the school that I went to didn't emphasize ecclesiology the same, the same way that my PhD school did, that we spent a little more time there and then honestly, same with Jen in terms of an ecclesiological practice. Actually that's not true. At my church in Louisville, we had, we had a couple very public discipline cases of public leaders that, that were really challenging, hard. And it was kind of one of those like just watching it happen was tough. That was probably my first introduction to it.

[C]

You know what I'm realizing? We, I had something like that at, at a, like what I would call a pretty typical SBC church. But what it felt like was there wasn't a framework for it. It was just like something bad happened and they dealt with it publicly versus, hey, this is how we're going to handle these kinds of things. It felt like a one off.

[A]

I think that part of the confusion around discipline generally, it, well one it comes from, I think a question of biblical literacy. And I don't just mean like what the words say, but I mean, yeah, just like a, a real push to understand what's happening in the life of the church. When you get maybe the clearest instances in First Corinthians where you have the removal of the man who is engaged in sexual immorality. And I think there's, there has become and it might just be in kind of our very paper forward word forward litigious society and culture that we've kind of taken the concepts of discipline that I think are faithfully present in God's Word and we've kind of, we've recontextualized them. I think we've made church discipline more complicated than I think you find. And I'm not saying that it's not relationally complicated. I think some of the methods that we've used to practice church discipline or some methods that have been used to practice church discipline are maybe well intentioned, but they just over torqued. And I think that's part of what presents some of the complications. When you think about, I think the Bible is clear that there is a need to correct and discipline. Broken people being made perfect.

[C]

People who are broken. Butthole.

[A]

Don't, don't. I heard it. I heard it. You heard it. Broken people who are being mended.

[C]

Somebody.

[A]

Discipline that require correction and discipline.

[C]

It's still happening.

[A]

Required correction and discipline. Lord help us. I. We started recording at the beginning of the day. It has been a long one. Okay, so discipline is important. And I think the logic of Hebrews that we read there at the beginning is that God's discipline is perfect and it's aimed at a perfect goal, which is the continued conformity of his people to his Son, Jesus Christ. That's the goal. That's the goal of sanctification. That's the goal of correction and discipline. There is also, in First Corinthians, it seems like a goal that is the purity of the church or the purity of the church's representation in its witnessing community. Meaning there needs to be a sense in which the church is able to present something that is not, at least in Paul's mind in First Corinthians 5, not at the level of Gentile sinfulness, like Corinthian sinfulness. Like we shouldn't just be like those people that are out there that are still going to the temple of Aphrodite and offering these pagan sacrifices. Like our behavior should be different. And so it seems like there's a couple of things in view when we get to 1st Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 5 is really where you start to build out a view of church discipline. If you were looking for one, that would certainly be maybe the most fundamental passage that. And I'll just read a portion of it for you. It's actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you and of a kind that is not tolerated even among the pagans. So, like, what is Paul saying here? He's saying like, okay, your behavior isn't. It's like, it's even. It's not even just sin. It's like sin that goes beneath pagan sin. What is it? A man has his father's wife. So the instance here, it sounds like is that there is a son who is now engaged in a sexual relationship with his mother in law, or what would have been possibly his mother in law at some point, maybe his father's past. And you are arrogant. Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from you. So that kind of begins to start the flow of Paul's call to action for this church, that this person who's engaged in this sin should be removed from you. Now he keeps expanding this. For though absent in body, I'm present in spirit. And as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. So Paul's saying, I've made up my mind on this, even though I'm not there when you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus, and my spirit is present with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. So he keeps on going and he goes on. I'll skip a few verses there he gives an imagery of leaven and bread. And then in verse nine, he kind of comes back to it. I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. Not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers or idolaters. Since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I'm writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or as an idolater, reviler, drunkard or swindler, not even to eat with such a one. And that's really important. Paul then ends by saying, for what have I done? Or what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges, God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you. Okay, so when you really think about this, you realize that Paul's making some fundamental distinctions. The first, he's saying this is a kind of unrepentant sin. That is, sometimes you'll hear the word gross. Gross. Don't think disgusting. Think meaning. Like it's of a magnitude. It's like a gross meaning. It's like. It's not just like a small thing. Like, it's a public thing. The church in Corinth knows this is happening, and Paul is rebuking them because you're kind of just like, letting it go unchecked. So there's a pattern here. It's public. And then he says to them, you need to. When you gather in the name of the Lord and by the power of the Spirit, you need to deliver this person over to Satan. So this is basically, at least in my interpretation, this is countenancing the. What we might call public church discipline. Okay? That, like, Paul is saying, hey, in the assembly, something should be said that tells everybody what this guy's doing is not right. And we've been acting like it's right, and he wants us to treat it like it's right, but because we've tolerated it inside, we now have to say it's not, and that the extension of that is he needs to be removed from you. And the phrase not even to eat with such a one, I think, is very significant. I think the language here in 1st Corinthians 5 is Paul charging the church. And this gets a little bit more expanded as he talks about the Lord's Supper later in this letter, that you are to publicly remove somebody from the gathering who's claiming to be a Christian, who is, in public, patterned, unrepentant, gross sin. And they. The principal place that they're being removed from is the table fellowship of the Lord. The table fellowship of the Lord, which is a central part of Christian worship both then and now. So the way that you would distinguish this person is they're no longer admitted to the table of the Lord. And I would say this is a pretty traditionally Reformed understanding of how discipline is practiced. I want to just hear from you guys. I've been talking for a minute now. Is this out of you? It's good.

[C]

You didn't make us like you. You. You went ahead and fielded some questions yourself.

[A]

Is this. How. Is this how you've understood discipline? Is this kind of congruent with what you've heard about discipline? If not, what have you heard differently, or what do you think differently about what I've said here?

[B]

I'll jump in and maybe just summarize because, yeah, I think this is largely what I've heard and largely what I've believed. But just to kind of make sure we're on the same page first, we're saying God disciplines his people and it's loving for him to do that, whether that's Hebrews, Proverbs 13, quoting Proverbs 3. It's good that God loves his people, that he shapes and forms them. He uses discipline as a means to shape and deform his people. That's why the author of Hebrews says that God will continue to do it for his people. I think one thing that we haven't mentioned yet, that I know you believe, that I think is highlighted here is this also, I think, highlights the importance of, and we can use this term differently, but we at least have to use it functionally. It highlights church membership. It highlights belonging to a people. Church is the family of God. That doesn't just mean the universal church. It means there are actual pastors and leaders at a church with an actual congregation, members who would say, that's my pastor. This is where I go, this is where I give, this is where I gather, this is where I serve. I'm a part of this body locally. Because you can't be removed from something unless you're a part of something. So Paul's admonition here to remove means that you must first be a part of something. And so this, this guy thinks he's a part of the church at Corinth. And so to, to be leavened, that's removed from the bread means that you were originally a part of it. And so one thing that we need to, I think just highlight here too, is the importance of church membership. You, your Christian life is largely meant to be done in the context of community. That means you should be known, you should be loved, you should be cared for, you should know others, and you should be doing the Christian life alongside of them. And then in light of that, when someone is walking, to use your word in gross sin, unrepentant sin, sin that is an ongoing, unrepentant, egregious type of sin. The church has the opportunity to go to them individually, somebody, one on one, hey, I see this going on in your life. I'd like to call you to repentance and towards life in Christ. And if they don't listen, then you do it again with a group of people. And if they don't listen, you bring it to the, to the elders or to the church. And if they're still unrepentant, you end up removing them. Now, I will say this as a caveat. We've been a part of Environments and Spaces where somebody read a blog on this and desired to start practicing it tomorrow. And did so in such ways, or did it in such ways that it could be really injurious to the body and injurious to people. Discipline that isn't done gently and done over the course of time in most cases. And is discipline not well practiced. Now again, if we're talking about a kind of sin that is so grotesque and so vulgar and so egregious, that has been done over a long period of time that we have to remove this person that was hiding something from us that shouldn't be done slowly. But more often than not, we're talking, we're not talking about those kinds of sin. We're talking about. Something that's, that they've been deceiving themselves or others around them that isn't, that is sin, but that isn't the kind of sin that would maybe put somebody in danger or put somebody in a, in a really scary situation. Does that make sense? And so in those. I remember reading John Calvin about this, and Calvin believes in church discipline. And when he writes about it ecclesiologically, he writes about it pretty formally like, hey, you do this and then you do this and then you do this. But then in letters that he writes to people, he writes about it far more lovingly and pastorally. And there's kind of a, a pastoral sensibility to him that I think can often be missed in the. I've been a pastor for five minutes and I'm supposed to be putting people under church discipline in order to serve the church. And I just would encourage you if you might. We don't want to fall in either ditch. To fall into the ditch of no church discipline could mean that you don't have a high view of the church. Could mean you don't have a high view of membership, and it can mean you don't have a high view of sin. And it's possible there are people that are really being injured and harmed under your leadership by people who are sinning egregiously against them. And you are a lustre loving leader of that community. When you, over the course of time, if people are walking unrepentant sin, you discipline them because God wants to discipline them. He loves them, he wants to bring them towards, towards repentance. On the other hand, don't be so zealous to participate in church discipline that you lose your brother or lose your sister. You want to do this in such a way that you can win them towards repentance and win them towards righteousness and holy living.

[D]

Are you tired of shallow discipleship in your life, the life of your church or small group. God is inviting you into deeper places. Real participation in his story, real understanding of who he is and what he has done, and a more meaningful practice of following in his ways. For the last 10 years, JT, Jen and Kyle have been teaching a program called Deep Discipleship in their local churches and they have now worked with Lifeway to make this available to everyone everywhere. Whether you're an individual looking to go deeper, a church leader looking for an accessible way to invite your small groups, classes and student ministry, or a homeschool family looking for curriculum for your high school students, go check out the Deep discipleship [e-mail] deepdiscipleship

[A]

foreign. Listen to an episode of Knowing Faith and think, my goodness, I'd like to do this in person somewhere. Well, you are in luck. Our friend and co host Jen Wilkin has a series of events coming up. These are Bible teaching events at six different locations in the us. They are called in the Word with Jen Wilkin. Worship is Provided by Sandra McCracken and what you can expect is in depth teaching and study of the Lord's Prayer. So you're gonna learn not just how to pray, but why we pray. These events include worship time for community scripture study and prayer. These are at six events over the course of the next year. If you wanna go hang out with Jen and study the Lord's Prayer and have some wonderful worship led by Sandra McCracken, go to lifeway.comInTheWord again that's lifeway.comInTheWord they are coming to your area so go check it [e-mail] intheword and hang out studying the Lord's Prayer with our friend and co host Jane Wilkin. Go check it out. Yeah, my dad once told me before you ever get to discipline, there are stages that come before it. There is encouragement. If there's not been any encouragement, then you are not ready to move to discipline. There's exhortation. If there's not been any exhortation, then you're not ready to move to discipline. There's been correction and an appeal of a correction. And if you haven't done that, you're not ready to move to discipline. And then there is discipline. But only after there's been encouragement in Christ. Exhortation against sin. Correction of saying this is not okay and we really do need to guide and direct our church differently. And then and only then should there be discipline. That is by way of what we might call removal because that's what you're talking about. And that's the language here in 1 Corinthians 5. The kind of the goal of discipline is restorative care. That's the goal. If somebody chooses to not receive correction or encouragement or exhortation that leads to restorative care, then what you're left with is removal for the sake of the purity of the church. But that's not the goal. Isn't removal like the goal of discipline isn't to remove somebody? The goal of discipline is to restore somebody. And if somebody persists in saying, I do not want to be restored righteously, then the shadow side to that is removal so that the church doesn't minimize its witness or diminish its witness, so the person doesn't remain in self deception. Jen, how does any of this square with some of those kind of the fuzziness that you said that you feel when language is around discipline?

[C]

I think, you know, I think probably where I get hung up. Well, I don't know. I think that I'd be curious to hear what you would say about how ecclesiology impacts the actual use of church, the actual execution of church discipline. So, like in a high church tradition versus a low church, you know, like we're in a. We're Baptists, so we have a low. I would describe our structure as a low ecclesiastical structure. You would say that, right? Like, we don't have bishops. We don't have.

[B]

Yeah, we're in Colorado.

[A]

Yeah,

[C]

I was thinking of the mountains, but I can see now that's not what you meant.

[A]

A double entendre, for sure.

[C]

That's the best. And then, and then it. But like, you know, I watch at a distance how the, like the PCA handles things. And I think, I don't know how I feel about that either. You know, like, I would imagine there's a give and take. Like there are things that are easier in a low, Low ecclesia. Logical structure, which is a really hard word to say. Anyone's following that. And then there are challenges and opportunities in a high ecclesiological structure. And do you have any thoughts on, like, how those, those two play out differently?

[B]

Do you mean like that in a more high church structure it can be brought before, like people outside the church who are governing authorities?

[C]

I would say, I would say it feels very formalized in some traditions and it feels very informal in other traditions, or not informal, but sort of church to church is the way I would describe it.

[A]

So that's definitely true.

[C]

And it feels, I'm not sure which is riskier or which is safer, or if there is one, that is a better approach.

[A]

You know what? I think that part of the interesting thing here is that the dynamics you're talking about are dynamics you feel across a variety of ecclesiological shapes and traditions. Like consider here that the church in Corinth is operating off of the judgment of the Apostle Paul. Yeah, like there is. And he says, I'm an outsider. I mean, he literally says it in his communication to them on this matter. Now, his voice does carry authority. So when you look at Presbyterian or Episcopal traditions, where you have an external body that is apart from the local church, they see that as a relevant mode or a contextualized mode of wise application of the kind of apostolic authority that's being invoked in a situation like this and elsewhere in the New Testament. And so I think it's just good for our listeners to know these. These tr. These like shapes of different church structures aren't just like people going, you know what? I wonder what would work. It's like people looking at the biblical text going, okay, what's a faithful application of the principles here? And as Baptists, we've said that the most faithful application seems to be the autonomy of the local church. And there's no doubt there are pluses and minuses to the decision that we've made when it comes to discipline. I think one of the pluses, if rightly executed, is the people making that judgment are people who are well acquainted, Lord willing, with the actual person and situation. They don't have degrees of removal that allows them to have a more personal, textured understanding of who the person is. But counterpoint would be, though they might not be disinterested in their objectivity, there's a lot of other factors at play when you are close to a situation. You know the expression you miss the forest for the tree. Like you can be too close to something and miss it because you're not being able to pan out. So oftentimes churches try to reconcile this by having a hybrid form, Baptist churches in particular, of a plurality of elders, to where there's a number of people speaking into a situation and requiring some level of congregational articulation, if not affirmation as a part of that process as well.

[C]

Yeah, but I mean, the bigger the church, that affirmation becomes just a rubber stamp.

[A]

It gets very difficult to do this. The bigger the church, the bigger the church. It's not impossible. You just have to realize that you're effectively scaling your decision making power to the elder team specifically. And the congregation is going to, by and large, have less personal knowledge of the instigating events or people involved.

[C]

So I think the way I've seen this play out is that I think that healthy church discipline holds two things. Intention, care for the individual and care for the organization or the church. Yes, the church. Right. And so when this goes sideways, it's because one of those outweighs the other or there's not a good sense of which of those should carry greater weight. So I would say.

[A]

I would say that though, that that will make it go sideways. I would say another thing is if the person just reacts poorly or if the church reacts poorly.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. But I'm saying like when, from the judgment piece. That is so. So, like, I'm thinking about the high versus low ecclesiology. So with a high ecclesiology where they, you know, they have all of these orderly ways that they go about things, what they're acknowledging is there are some best practices we should pay attention to. We've seen a lot of these kinds of things and we're going to bring best practice to bear on any given individual situation that rises up outside of a local church. I'm kind of making some assumptions here, so interrupt me if I'm wrong. But in our traditions where it's really the local church is the beginning and the end of the process, I think it can break down. Because if the. And I'm not, I'm not, I'm not actually saying that the high church way is better than the low church way. I'm just. This is. My experience has been in low church settings because there's no reference point outside of the church. If church leadership tends to err on the side of the individual, it can be repeatedly unhealthy in the way it's exercised. Or if they tend to err on the side of the organization and the individual takes the hit every time, it can also come be very destructive. But when those two things are held in proper tension and when there's enough distance, enough perspective from the place of the elder room on both of those things mattering is when it tends to play out in a way that's good for both the individual and the church.

[A]

Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's true. I think that if, if an elder team or whatever governance structure exists in your local church is. Is trying to hold both of those things together, not with perfection and not with flippancy, but with real, as much faithful excellence as they can muster, then I think it does have the best chance of going together. I do take some consolation in the fact that I think Corinth was probably a low church ecclesiology.

[C]

Yeah, Well, I think that's fair. Yeah. Church in general.

[A]

If by high ecclesiology we mean, like, a system of external apparati that, like, can help regulate the functions of a given local church, I think at this point, the best we can surmise is that the apostolic authority was the only external authority that was operating in any sort of beyond the local church function, which, again, is principally why some of these traditions set themselves up that way and is a faithful application of that principle. But I do think it's helpful to realize that, like, man, what Paul's calling them to do here was not predicated on them having, like, an external system.

[C]

But I think what's fascinating to me is that we are talking about this, like, on the. On the. We're posting Cat. You know, we're. We're in. We're post Reformation. The Catholic Church obviously had major mechanisms in place for this kind of thing. You know, most people are familiar with the term excommunication. They may not associate it with the idea of church discipline, because it's such a commonly used word in a lot of contexts. But, like, I think that's what's fascinating to me is how did we go from the Catholic Church, which was a very high ecclesiology, to all of these different expressions of it and hope? Like, yeah, yeah, I know it's because of the Reformation, but, like, I think the low church people would be like, yeah, and we reclaimed what it was supposed to be like all along. I don't know. I guess I'm like, who's right? I guess is what I would say.

[A]

Well, I actually. I mean, I think that. I don't think the Catholic view of this is correct, but I think they're using a word that is truer to what's in view in First Corinthians 5 than the idea of church discipline. And again, I'm fine calling it church discipline, but the very word excommunication, communication carries with it what I think the fundamental connotation of First Corinthians 5 is. You are removing them. Communion.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Let me. Let me just make it practical. There have been two instances in the history of the Church I now pasture, where we discipline somebody and we remove them. And there's a lot of things that you can do in a situation like that. But let me tell you what the principal impact of that was, because it's not like we've barred the door, the person can't come to worship. We want people that are not Christians to hear the Gospel. What we told them is you are not free and fit to receive the Lord's Supper. And if you were to do so, we think it would be what scripture says when it talks about those who eat and drink judgment upon themselves because you are caught up in self deception. So this person can come to worship. Gosh, I hope they come to worship. I live in a community where I still pastor. I still see one of these people, you know, like, I'm in the community with them. I think that churches have gotten to a place and maybe it's just the litigious nature of our culture and society where they view this primarily in terms of paperwork and liability.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're like, can we get the right paperwork in order for this? And I'm not saying there should not be innocent as doves, shrewd as serpents kind of reasoning that goes on for these things. But I do think it's important to say, like, hey, you're not. You're not enacting a legal force of documentation against a person. What you're telling them is, we don't want you to eat and drink judgment upon yourself because we believe you're deceived. That's right. That's it. So I think the word excommunication is, again, I'm not for the Catholic practice of it, and I'm not for Catholic ecclesiology. I want to be clear about that. I think the word itself is a pretty fitting word for actually what's in view for first Christmas, Corinthians 5. Would you agree, JT, in terms of the word itself and excommunication? Yeah.

[B]

Yes, I think that's exactly right. I think, again, we've said this, but I think we have to say it over and over and over again. The goal of church discipline isn't excommunication.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

It is sometimes what happens. The goal is restoration, the same way that a father who's disciplining his son or daughter, the goal is never that the son or daughter would go, you know, keep rebelling against the father, father, or the mother or the family that they would be propping up again, hey, here's how the family acts. The goal of this discipline is to produce righteousness, joy, repentance in Christ. And so excommunication shouldn't be like a if this, then that it should be, you know, after. If this, if this, if this, if this, if this, then prayerfully, slowly, gently, Then that, and with tears in our eyes. And even then hoping that after excommunication, this person would be sobered up by the reality that the church that I once belonged to doesn't believe that I'm walking with God or that God is walking with me, and that even the excommunication could be a means of restoration.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. And you're getting to exactly what Paul says in that passage, that if you. That if you missed it, I'll read it again. When he says, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, it then says, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the. The Lord, the cause, like, there. There is a. The purpose is not, hey, do this so you guys can be good to go or do this because, man, that guy's a jerk. Or this will be his comeuppance. It's like, no, what you're doing here, this excommunication is with a purpose. And the purpose is his ultimate salvation and freedom from the judgment of God. So church discipline, biblical. Yes. No, J.T. church discipline.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's. It. I don't hear this. Doesn't mean that the church discipline is being done at the church of the person that's listening to this is the way it should be done. Doesn't mean it's biblical. But churches must have a mechanism for calling people to holiness, Godliness, following God's law, following Christ, walking in righteousness, and for those who are in unrepentant ongoing sin and aren't following. The church must slowly, gently, tearfully, prayerfully engage in calling people towards godliness and holiness with the hopes that they'll soberly respond in the power of the spirit and move towards Christ.

[A]

Jen, would you add any caveats to that? Would you add any conditions or any considerations?

[C]

Totally agree with what JT just said and am grateful that churches do value this. And also, it makes me super nervous in the hands of the wrong person.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I get that. Well, hopefully this is one of those things that might sober you up. Maybe it'll sober you up to consider, man, am I at a church where there's healthy ecclesiology. I'm at a church where I trust the pastors. And if you're a ministry leader, hopefully it sobers you up that you should not be out there gunslinging on discipline. It should be something that is marked by the dynamics of shepherding ministry, not warrior ministry. And that's a pretty important distinction to make here. We hope you enjoyed the discussion. Thank you for listening to the podcast today. Don't forget to to check out our sponsors through our webpage link in the show notes or online at trainthechurch.com under the Knowing Faith Podcast webpage over at that same website, trainthechurch.com you can find a link to our ministry cohort. And if you're interested in building a culture of deep discipleship in the life of your local church or your ministry, we would encourage you to check it out and see how deep discipleship can be. Not just something you hear about, but something you do in the life of your church. We hope you enjoyed the discussion. Grace and Peace.